Shadows over Innistrad

[Gheizen64]

Death and Rats



4 Aether Vial

4 Dark Confidant
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Pain Seer
4 Pack Rat

4 Dark Ritual
4 Disfigure
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Rishadan port
4 Wasteland
14 Swamp


You're welcome :cool:

Pack rat is insane tbh.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

-4 seer - 1 rat + 3 Gurmag/Stalker + 2 shriekmaw/gatekeeper
and urborg + jitte wouldnt hurt! Actually jitte hast to be somewhere (rat's nest pre constructed deck)

[Darkenslight]

Cue the "Blue's Clues" tokens.

And the Mystery Incorporated alters.

I'll tell you something - for the most part, this set is a flavor win. Not necessarily power win, but the whole thing oozes flavor and soul that BfZ and OGW didn't really have, IMO.

But man some of those standard deck are gonna be nutty. And there's enough for Modern and possibly the OG Eternal formats that this set is worth a major buy-in.

[ESG]

-4 seer - 1 rat + 3 Gurmag/Stalker + 2 shriekmaw/gatekeeper

Can't wait for that Dark Confidant reveal ...

[Darkenslight]

New spoiler found via Reddit (on HareruyaMTG):

Burn from Within X :r:
Sorcery (R)
Blaze. If a creature is dealt damage this way, it loses indestructible until end of turn. If that creature would die this turn, exile it instead.

Underwhelming for Legacy, due to the lack of indestructible threats, but an interesting burn spell for some other formats.

[(nameless one)]

Can't wait for that Dark Confidant reveal ...

Greatness at ALL COST I guess

[rufus]

New spoiler found via Reddit (on HareruyaMTG):

Burn from Within X :r:
Sorcery (R)
Blaze. If a creature is dealt damage this way, it loses indestructible until end of turn. If that creature would die this turn, exile it instead.

Underwhelming for Legacy, due to the lack of indestructible threats, but an interesting burn spell for some other formats.

This is a card that really should not be at rare. Unlikely to be playable outside limited IMO.

[Finn]

I wonder if we are going to see some good indestructible cards spoiled in the next few days and then again in a few months.

[Darkenslight]

New Spoiler from PureMTGO:

http://i.imgur.com/ZgYK9MR.png

Best flavor text so far, IMO. Utterly horrifying in context.

[Fox]

New Spoiler from PureMTGO:

http://i.imgur.com/ZgYK9MR.png

Best flavor text so far, IMO. Utterly horrifying in context.
Engulf the Shore is probably a force for good in standard, encouraging people to get back on color in a format where we're basically getting to the point of calling decks "Naya-Dimir." Moving to eternal magic, this could easily be a sideboard card a deck like High Tide could employ as a way to deal with hate-bears. In a vacuum it's nice to see a card that can punish land-go decks that don't try to win, like miracles [even if it's not that playable].

The artwork is surprisingly great, especially in the foreground where it looks like it might actually be painted. There are some excellent touches on the tidal wave (the sea spray effects along the top), but most of the wave and the tentacles inside looks like photoshop sadly. For me, probably the best part about the art itself is the Bob Ross 'happy trees' moment the artist took with the two silhouettes on the bridge. Hopefully art like this is something we see more of in the future; it's been a long time since cards added aesthetic appreciation to the game (before blowing one out). :tongue:

[Darkenslight]

Also, the Rare cycle of lands...are being somewhat snarkily referred to as 'handlands', because you reveal a basic land-type card that shares colors with the dual-mana-producing lands.

They look decent enough, actually (this one, for example):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeEKLmzW0AAtPC_.png

But I'm not sure how much play they'll see, but it's an interesting twist.

[H]

But I'm not sure how much play they'll see, but it's an interesting twist.

Pretty much unplayable outside Standard, or two color EDH decks really.

That being said, I definitely need a foil of that Fortified Village for my Rhys deck.

[Fox]

Pretty much unplayable outside Standard.
Might be too soon to make that call. Daze still puts islands back in hand, so it's definitely a great way to get into legacy on a budget as you save towards blue duals (even though these 'handlands' can't be fetched). Otherwise yes, totally unusable in non-daze legacy.

[H]

Might be too soon to make that call. Daze still puts islands back in hand, so it's definitely a great way to get into legacy on a budget as you save towards blue duals (even though these 'handlands' can't be fetched). Otherwise yes, totally unusable in non-daze legacy.

I think they are even worse than that, since if you had one of these and a fetch in your opener, you can't even have it come in untapped. Playing a non-Island in a Daze deck is also pretty subpar, I mean, yeah, BUG runs Bayou, but that is at a high cost and sometimes bites you in the ass still.

I'm going to stick by my unplayable in Legacy prediction and would be very surprised if I was wrong. In reality, the Battle-lands are much better than this on a budget, I'm pretty sure, after shocks of course.

[Fox]

I think they are even worse than that, since if you had one of these and a fetch in your opener, you can't even have it come in untapped. Playing a non-Island in a Daze deck is also pretty subpar, I mean, yeah, BUG runs Bayou, but that is at a high cost and sometimes bites you in the ass still.

I'm going to stick by my unplayable in Legacy prediction and would be very surprised if I was wrong. In reality, the Battle-lands are much better than this on a budget, I'm pretty sure, after shocks of course.
Battle-lands are probably unplayable with Daze (require a board state of 3 land drops already happening, at which point a tax effect should be mostly irrelevant). Shocks are also a tough sell with Daze, but both shocks and battle are fetch targets. In your example you would play fetch first, grab basic island, daze, move to your turn and have an untapped 'handland' revealing said island - with lack of fetch tutoring you'd have to be mostly blue, but this is probably the most optimal budget dual land while running Daze specifically.

Note: when I say 'mostly blue' we're talking ~54+ cards.

[joven]

Engulf the Shore is probably a force for good in standard, encouraging people to get back on color in a format where we're basically getting to the point of calling decks "Naya-Dimir." [...]

Well, the current manabase in Standard is just due to Fetchlands + fetchable duallands in Standard speed without anything like Wasteland. I have to say I like it much. Nice times for 4-5 color rogue decks. But of course it can't stay that way. And my point is: It won't anyway, the Fetchlands are rotating out.


--

I think, the new rare duallands are garbage for any format, even for Standard. You need to have a land with a basic lands type in your hand. That is really limiting even for two color decks. You don't always have another land in hand and you want to be able to play a reasonable amount of nonbasic lands. It is basically very random if you have a land to reveal because it is almost random what you have in hand. You can't build strategy on random.

I don't get why they didn't just reprint the enemy colored checklands from the original Innistrad.

[Barook]

http://i.imgur.com/mqw1orD.png

Seems interesting with Fetches, KotR and Loam. Most likely too slow for Legacy, but might be Modern playable once they tone down Eldrazi.

[H]

http://i.imgur.com/VxsyYV2.png

The question is, how bad is a bad, Red, Dark Confidant?

[rufus]

...

The question is, how bad is a bad, Red, Dark Confidant?

Fun design, but it's really bad.

[iamajellydonut]

The question is, how bad is a bad, Red, Dark Confidant?

Taurean Mauler bad.

[H]

Fun design, but it's really bad.

I could see it as almost Modern playable, but that 3 cmc kills it really. If only it was a 2/1 for 2.

[Fox]

Fun design, but it's really bad.
This is the kind of card you donate to your burn opponent to slow them down. :laugh:
For all the people who enjoy getting* locked out of games by modern lantern will now have the option to experience something very like it every game, in any format!

[Barook]

http://i.imgur.com/VxsyYV2.png

The question is, how bad is a bad, Red, Dark Confidant?
Very, because they'll always choose what you don't want. Even in a shell like Mono-R Sneak Attack, I can't see it being good.

[square_two]

No way this is modern/legacy playable.

I think it's fine for standard. Really too bad that some of the cheap Delve spells will be rotating out though. This with Become Immense or Treasure Cruise would be really sweet. As it is, 3/2 Menace for cmc 3 with upside isn't bad at all. Either you get an extra card or the opponent potentially takes damage. If the effect said "bottom of your library" instead of from the top, people would rate it higher, even though the effect is largely the same.

[bruizar]

Also, the Rare cycle of lands...are being somewhat snarkily referred to as 'handlands', because you reveal a basic land-type card that shares colors with the dual-mana-producing lands.

They look decent enough, actually (this one, for example):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeEKLmzW0AAtPC_.png

But I'm not sure how much play they'll see, but it's an interesting twist.

this screams fallen empires

[iamajellydonut]

As it is, 3/2 Menace for cmc 3 with upside isn't bad at all.

Correction: It's a 3/2 for 3cc with no upside.

Even if you stack your deck with delve spells, you still have no way to actually cast them since you have no cards in your graveyard as you've replaced all of your actually efficient cards with overcosted garbage.

[sco0ter]

The question is, how bad is a bad, Red, Dark Confidant?

Maybe it's not that bad actually. It either fills your graveyard or draws you an extra card for free. Playable with Sol lands.
Only needs some way to use the cards in graveyard (Crucible of Worlds, Goblin Welder, Unearth ?), so that it doesn't matter that much in which zone the cards will end.

[Cire]

Correction: It's a 3/2 for 3cc with no upside.

While it's a bad card - the punishment mechanic doesn't mean there is no upside. It still deals damage or draws you a card (66% of the time, i.e. when not revealing lands). [Again, yes, it's a bad card because during that 66% of the time, your opponent always chooses the option that you don't want.]

[Poron]

too loot cards red has already Dack Fayden and Faithless Loothing

[Reaver027]

I hope everyone realizes that the Prodder does not replace your draw but gives you an extra effect. Either a free card, or free damage, or flood protection.

[iamajellydonut]

I hope everyone realizes that the Prodder does not replace your draw but gives you an extra effect. Either a free card, or free damage, or flood protection.

mhm... nnnno.

It will never give you a free draw unless it's something you can't use.

It will rarely deal more than an average of 1.5 damage per turn.

"Flood protection"? Unless we're assuming that you also have Sensei's Divining Top in play. In which case, I'd rather combo the latter with any other card.

[GenghisTom]

I hope everyone realizes that the Prodder does not replace your draw but gives you an extra effect. Either a free card, or free damage, or flood protection.

I was also getting the feeling people didn't understand it this way.
It's a strict upside. Not legacy-good, but certainly playable in an aggressive red standard deck.
The only case where this trigger would be a downside is if you're mana screwed, then the only way you can draw a land would be if the top two cards of your library are both lands.
Although, if you have this out you already have 3 lands in play and in the type of deck this card would be played in 3 lands is plenty.

[square_two]

I was also getting the feeling people didn't understand it this way.
It's a strict upside. Not legacy-good, but certainly playable in an aggressive red standard deck.
The only case where this trigger would be a downside is if you're mana screwed, then the only way you can draw a land would be if the top two cards of your library are both lands.
Although, if you have this out you already have 3 lands in play and in the type of deck this card would be played in 3 lands is plenty.

Right?

A random card is chosen from your deck. You either get that card in hand, or your opponent takes damage equal to its cmc and it goes to your grave (where it could be potentially exploited). How is that a downside???

[iamajellydonut]

How is that a downside???

Because it could be a different card? Just because it doesn't inherently hurt you doesn't mean it's not bad for your deck.

[TsumiBand]

It's just the punisher mechanic again; your opponent will always be able to choose what's better for them and that card will always be in the wrong zone. Stuck on three land? Congrats, that guy will never put a land spell in your hand. Lightning Bolt? That goes in the trash. Brainstorm? That goes in the fucking trash. Any spell that actively wrecks the current board state? That goes right directly into the trash. And so on.

I get that it's a potential extra card but the problem is getting that card to matter. Really this guy will usually be making you hope that whatever card your opponent tossed in the bin for you is actively worse than the card you're about to draw. It wil only draw cards when the opponent can't choose the lesser of two evils, so in other words when their life total don't allow it. So basically whichever side of 'winning' you're already on, ot puts you deeper into that territory at best.

[HammerAndSickled]

I think people are fundamentally misevaluating this card. It's obviously not for Legacy but it will be an excellent card in Standard and possibly okay in modern. Punisher cards are bad, yadda yadda, and I'll be the first to say so. I even explained just yesterday why Vexing Devil is an awful card (it's a Lava Spike when you need a creature and a creature when you need a Lava Spike.)

But this card isn't like that. First of all, 3/2 menace for 3 is a respectable body in the lower powered formats, and removal is bad enough that he'll likely stick around for a few turns. Second, his ability is all upside. If the body is relevant, it can never hurt you to have this guy out. He doesn't replace your draw step so it's 100% of the time better to have this guy in play than not. And third, both "modes" do what you want to do. A red deck is focused on dealing damage, and this guy always furthers that gameplan. It sucks that he's blank when you hit land, but when you hit a burn spell it's either a free card or a free ping, which is excellent. Especially when it comes to cards like Exquisite Firecraft in Standard, where either choice is just pure gas. Or other copies of himself.

I'd definitely expect to be seeing this guy all over the place in standard and for some decks to try him in Modern.

[Cire]

That said - I always liked the idea of the punisher mechanic - and would love to play a deck loaded with them. I know it won't be a good deck - but it sounds fun.

[iamajellydonut]

Especially when it comes to cards like Exquisite Firecraft in Standard, where either choice is just pure gas. Or other copies of himself.

Except that the amount of damage isn't just a vague "gas". It can be precisely quantified. It's called "Ball Lightning" and it still sucks.

[HammerAndSickled]

Except that the amount of damage isn't just a vague "gas". It can be precisely quantified. It's called "Ball Lightning" and it still sucks.

So is your stance "Burn decks suck in every format" (demonstrably false) or "This card will see no play EXCEPT in burn decks" (I agree, it's a pure damage card.) ?

[Ace/Homebrew]

It warrants at least as much discussion as Wasteland Strangler (did you ever find a deck for that card Jelly? :tongue:).

I believe it is obvious from past experience that punisher cards are not playable in eternal formats. However Standard will use this and Modern might toy with it. The only issue in Modern is that the deck it goes in is probably just a worse version of Burn. This card would be all upside if you are playing Rift Bolt or Flame Javelin.

[iamajellydonut]

So is your stance "Burn decks suck in every format" (demonstrably false) or "This card will see no play EXCEPT in burn decks" (I agree, it's a pure damage card.) ?

Neither? My stance is that the card is a dumpy body that doesn't actually do anything unless you deliberately and negatively change the rest of your deck to enable it.


It warrants at least as much discussion as Wasteland Strangler (did you ever find a deck for that card Jelly? :tongue:).

Hey, hey! In fairness, Wasteland Strangler has made it into the Pro Tour and its only major setback in Modern is being overshadowed by the retardedness in Oath of the Gatewatch.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Hey, hey! In fairness, Wasteland Strangler has made it into the Pro Tour and its only major setback in Modern is being overshadowed by the retardedness in Oath of the Gatewatch.
Okay, good point. I concede that it is right up there with other Pro Tour blow out cards like Scrabbling Claws and Sun Droplet. :tongue:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19530&iddeck=148599

[iamajellydonut]

Okay, good point. I concede that it is right up there with other Pro Tour blow out cards like Scrabbling Claws and Sun Droplet. :tongue:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19530&iddeck=148599

thx, bae.

[Octopusman]

I think people are fundamentally misevaluating this card. It's obviously not for Legacy but it will be an excellent card in Standard and possibly okay in modern. Punisher cards are bad, yadda yadda, and I'll be the first to say so. I even explained just yesterday why Vexing Devil is an awful card (it's a Lava Spike when you need a creature and a creature when you need a Lava Spike.)

But this card isn't like that. First of all, 3/2 menace for 3 is a respectable body in the lower powered formats, and removal is bad enough that he'll likely stick around for a few turns. Second, his ability is all upside. If the body is relevant, it can never hurt you to have this guy out. He doesn't replace your draw step so it's 100% of the time better to have this guy in play than not. And third, both "modes" do what you want to do. A red deck is focused on dealing damage, and this guy always furthers that gameplan. It sucks that he's blank when you hit land, but when you hit a burn spell it's either a free card or a free ping, which is excellent. Especially when it comes to cards like Exquisite Firecraft in Standard, where either choice is just pure gas. Or other copies of himself.

I'd definitely expect to be seeing this guy all over the place in standard and for some decks to try him in Modern.

I'm with you on this and I will try him in Dragon Stompy. [Edit] Probably his only potential home, but we'll see.
Menace is evasion and not irrelevant. Considering opponent is often locked out in the first few turns by the time they get one creature on the board he still getting through... meanwhile random is random so it doesn't matter if they get rid of the "good" card (and take damage)... you'll still get to draw for the turn which could be any other card or even another copy of the card they just binned. More than half the time that means they're taking at least 6 total if you include combat. If they let me keep the reveal... hey, free card!
It's strictly an upside regardless of whether they choose the option you don't want because either you're drawing two or you're getting big damage in with an evasive beater. I don't think that the land denial scenario will come up often.

[maharis]

Isn't Prodder sort of like Gamble on a stick? You need to build around it, but the payoff is potentially huge. And with Sylvan/SDT you can stack your draws a little bit and force them to make the choice on the card you care about least. Yes you can do that with Bob and there's not always a good reason to play this kind of deck without Bob, but those can be found.

For example, you wouldn't want to play Gurmag Angler with Bob, but this card, sure. It either stocks the yard for your Angler or flips it and they have to take 7 once or 5 a bunch of times. If they have the removal for it, then they're not hitting your 3/2 with evasion (that's good, right?)

The big issue is that you can't always just run it out turn 3 and expect everything to work out. You have to build around AND plan. That does hurt it. But it's definitely interesting.

[Cire]

Tireless Tracker 2G
Creature - Human Scout
Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, investigate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Draw a card.")
Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, put a +1/+1 counter on Tireless Tracker.
3/2

With fetches you get 2 clue a turn, letting you have gas in the long game, and letting this grow. . . seems worth exploring. For example cast this turn 2 off DRS, then turn 3 fetch on your turn, end of opponents turn, sac both clue, draw 2 cards, then your turn 4 fetch and sac two more clues, (you drew 4 cards through clues alone) and you attack with a 7/6.

[square_two]

Tireless Tracker 2G
Creature - Human Scout
Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, investigate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Draw a card.")
Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, put a +1/+1 counter on Tireless Tracker.
3/2

With fetches you get 2 clue a turn, letting you have gas in the long game, and letting this grow. . . seems worth exploring. For example cast this turn 2 off DRS, then turn 3 fetch on your turn, end of opponents turn, sac both clue, draw 2 cards, then your turn 4 fetch and sac two more clues, (you drew 4 cards through clues alone) and you attack with a 7/6.

Sort of reminds me of Centaur Vinecrasher. Could slot really well into Sylvan Plug, where you already have Titania and land drop stuff. The added card draw there could really be nice since stompy decks always struggle with card draw.

[iamajellydonut]

Tireless Tracker 2G
Creature - Human Scout
Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, investigate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Draw a card.")
Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, put a +1/+1 counter on Tireless Tracker.
3/2

With fetches you get 2 clue a turn, letting you have gas in the long game, and letting this grow. . . seems worth exploring. For example cast this turn 2 off DRS, then turn 3 fetch on your turn, end of opponents turn, sac both clue, draw 2 cards, then your turn 4 fetch and sac two more clues, (you drew 4 cards through clues alone) and you attack with a 7/6.

I've been brewing with this fucker all morning.

[Cire]

I doubt Nic Fit (with veteran explorer) would want this, but it seems like a decent draw engine in BGx decks. . . probably not for any BUG decks as they could just use cantrip cartel instead, but Junk or Jund might like it?

Junk with Tracker?

4 BOB
4 DRS
4 SFM
3 Goyf
1 Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Knight of the Reliquary

4 GSZ
4 STP
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lingering Souls
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull

22 Lands

[HammerAndSickled]

I'm with you on this and I will try him in Dragon Stompy. [Edit] Probably his only potential home, but we'll see.
Menace is evasion and not irrelevant. Considering opponent is often locked out in the first few turns by the time they get one creature on the board he still getting through... meanwhile random is random so it doesn't matter if they get rid of the "good" card (and take damage)... you'll still get to draw for the turn which could be any other card or even another copy of the card they just binned. More than half the time that means they're taking at least 6 total if you include combat. If they let me keep the reveal... hey, free card!
It's strictly an upside regardless of whether they choose the option you don't want because either you're drawing two or you're getting big damage in with an evasive beater. I don't think that the land denial scenario will come up often.
You agreed with me, and then said you're trying it in the exact opposite kind of deck. This card is only good in aggressive decks.

[rufus]

Neither? My stance is that the card is a dumpy body that doesn't actually do anything unless you deliberately and negatively change the rest of your deck to enable it.
...

You could try to pile in with alternative cost cards like Fireblast, Rift Bolt, Street Wraith, and Gurmag Angler, which doesn't seem intrinsically terrible. I imagine that prodder would get cut for something more directly effective in a deck like that.

[tescrin]

I don' t know about Prodder. Every time you flip a land or a 1 CMC card, you probably won't get it. He may work next to bombs that happen to cost a lot (Force of Will, Gurmag Angler, etc..) but he still is then compared to Bob. Bob almost *never* draws you cards until Bob #2 or #3; because he's killed on sight. This guy can survive multiple turns and still not flip anything over for you (Lands for example.) What he has on Bob is you don't have a risky game if you run those cards and he has a body that can clock someone reasonably.

I think he's worth experimenting with, but I would be surprised if he was really good. The hype is only ~$6 right now, I'm sure he'll probably go down a little and then spike a bit, then probably sink again; but it's a small gamble for what may be a neat card.

[iamajellydonut]

Does it bother anyone else that only two of the five new lands have flavor text? I mean, I don't need flavor text on every card, but it seems weird to only give text to some of the cycle. Especially considering their rules text is all the same length.

[Ephemeron]

Does it bother anyone else that only two of the five new lands have flavor text? I mean, I don't need flavor text on every card, but it seems weird to only give text to some of the cycle. Especially considering their rules text is all the same length.

Yes, 100%

[Fox]

Does it bother anyone else that only two of the five new lands have flavor text? I mean, I don't need flavor text on every card, but it seems weird to only give text to some of the cycle. Especially considering their rules text is all the same length.
Please tell me that only the blue ones have flavor text (and that for all other color combos there are...no words, literally)

[iamajellydonut]

Please tell me that only the blue ones have flavor text (and that for all other color combos there are...no words, literally)

This may come as a shock, but black/red actually snagged one of the flavor texts. What may not come as a shock is that even the black/red flavor text managed to be about Jace.

[Gheizen64]

I don't think the devil is that terrible. In a deck like Dragonstompy, this is essentially a 3/2 menace that deal 2+ damage on average each turn bonus to your opponent, regardless of blockers. It's a pretty good beater. It's interesting in the sense that it's an aggressive card that should go in burn decks, but the pseudo-sinergy it has with high cmc cards make you evaluate his position even in decks like all-in red which have an average of 4 cmc. It is still bad there due to how unconducive to your gameplan is, and how bad can it screw you out of topdecks, so whatever. Its home is an aggressive but consistent deck where negating a topdeck isn't relevant to your overall gameplan. I'll still try it here and there, but it's still probably unplayable in legacy and only decent in modern/standard.

The 2G human seems interesting but it's also absurdly slow. Something like Courser of Kruphix is 10 times better no matter how you see it imho. It draw you cards off the top and is way faster at generating card advantage, with a better body to boot.

[Cire]

The 2G human seems interesting but it's also absurdly slow. Something like Courser of Kruphix is 10 times better no matter how you see it imho. It draw you cards off the top and is way faster at generating card advantage, with a better body to boot.

Seeing as how you can draw 4 and have it be a 7/6 by turn 4 i think qualifies it to be at least testable.

[iatee]

Yeah, Courser of Kruphix is never a 'real threat', just a value card. This is a value card that doubles as a threat. I think Maverick style decks should definitely test it.

[Gheizen64]

Seeing as how you can draw 4 and have it be a 7/6 by turn 4 i think qualifies it to be at least testable.

... how? with a sac engine? Cause to be a 7/6 you'd need to spend 8 mana. I concede the point about this being both a threat and a card advantage engine though.

[square_two]

Seeing as how you can draw 4 and have it be a 7/6 by turn 4 i think qualifies it to be at least testable.

Anyone else wondering how to abuse the "Sacrifice a Clue" clause?

Him + the crucible land that returns to battlefield from grave for 3 + Smokestack with 2 counters. :cool:

[Cire]

... how? with a sac engine? Cause to be a 7/6 you'd need to spend 8 mana. I concede the point about this being both a threat and a card advantage engine though.

No - just spend 8 mana :tongue:

Turn 1 - Land + DRS
Turn 2 - Land + Tracker
Turn 3 - Fetch --> Land, spend 4 mana, sac two clues, draw two have a 5/4
Turn 4 - Fetch --> Land, spend 4 mana, sac two clues, draw two have a 7/6

Can you be doing better things turn 3/4 than saccing clues. Yes. But, this is just to show how it can draw cards relatively quickly, and how it can buff itself relatively quickly.

[H]

Anyone else wondering how to abuse the "Sacrifice a Clue" clause?

Him + the crucible land that returns to battlefield from grave for 3 + Smokestack with 2 counters. :cool:

No, the answer is Arcbound Ravager. Not that it's a good idea though.

[rufus]

No, the answer is Arcbound Ravager. Not that it's a good idea though.

Salvage Titan is another fun choice. Kutholda Forgemaster and Goblin Welder are probably better.

[Richard Cheese]

... how? with a sac engine? Cause to be a 7/6 you'd need to spend 8 mana. I concede the point about this being both a threat and a card advantage engine though.

Yeah I'm thinking that growing him is just icing on the cake. In all likelihood he's not going to live past one or two counters, but with a fetch you could easily get two tokens. For nonblue midrange/aggro decks, being able to crack a couple of these to refill your hand later in the game could be pretty huge. My main problem is that he's essentially a 4-drop if you want to guarantee getting tokens, and at that point a 3/2 is pretty mediocre.

[Freggle]

Tireless Tracker 2G
Creature - Human Scout
Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, investigate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Draw a card.")
Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, put a +1/+1 counter on Tireless Tracker.
3/2

With fetches you get 2 clue a turn, letting you have gas in the long game, and letting this grow. . . seems worth exploring. For example cast this turn 2 off DRS, then turn 3 fetch on your turn, end of opponents turn, sac both clue, draw 2 cards, then your turn 4 fetch and sac two more clues, (you drew 4 cards through clues alone) and you attack with a 7/6.


I think this is more friends with Lotus Cobra, Knight of the Reliquary & Scryb Ranger more so then Deathrite Shaman, but it all depends on the other cards and your overall game plan.

Edit: With that package you can easily ramp into something like a Primeval Titan or Rampaging Baloth to go bonkers.

[Fox]

I think this is more friends with Lotus Cobra, Knight of the Reliquary & Scryb Ranger more so then Deathrite Shaman, but it all depends on the other cards and your overall game plan.
The quick issue with Lotus Cobra + KotR is that you should probably be using those two in conjunction to assemble Dark Depths/Stage (Dark Sphere stream from London sometimes has a guy doing this, and it's great). Tireless Tracker is in a lot of ways a worse Painful Truths, but I think is still at least playable in Daze/DRS decks. The most promising investigator I've seen is in white: Thraben Inspector - one of the more promising draw "engines" for a deck like DnT, and certainly less expensive than Horizon Canopy. (let's just call him the white Silvergill Adept)

Edit: Trail of Evidence seems like the more evasive investigate engine vs Tracker.

[iamajellydonut]

Edit: Trail of Evidence seems like the more evasive investigate engine vs Tracker.

Probably, but the relevant part is that with Trail of Evidence you're probably better off just using a run-of-the-mill 3cc draw spell instead. So long as you have Tracker and a fetchland, which is really all W/B/R/G can pride itself on right now, you've got an engine and a relevant threat.

[Cire]

Tireless Tracker is in a lot of ways a worse Painful Truths

Except that it can be a relative threat.

I think the thought that it should be treated as a 4 drop to be fairly accurate - as such maybe it can take the place of Bloodbraid in Jund. Obviously it does not do the same thing at all - but in terms of CA (left unanswered the clues provide way more than just the free card of bloodbraid) and as a threat (left unanswered this thing can grow!) I think it may have higher potential?

[Darkenslight]

http://i.imgur.com/VxsyYV2.png

The question is, how bad is a bad, Red, Dark Confidant?

I'm really tempted to play a Through the Breach deck in Modern with this and all the big fat Eldrazi. ALL OF THEM. Go R/B for Goryo's Vengeance, too. And hten just roll trolls to exploding doors.

[Fox]

Except that it can be a relative threat.

I think the thought that it should be treated as a 4 drop to be fairly accurate - as such maybe it can take the place of Bloodbraid in Jund. Obviously it does not do the same thing at all - but in terms of CA (left unanswered the clues provide way more than just the free card of bloodbraid) and as a threat (left unanswered this thing can grow!) I think it may have higher potential?
So what I see happening is a non-delver deck needing to hold a land in hand (look out for Daze) to ensure that opponent doesn't receive priority between resolution and first clue token generation, then this guy dies to any removal spell. Painful Truths is more guaranteed draws with a lower ceiling. Slotting out a BBE for this guy certainly won't help your matchup vs JTMS. What matchup is Tracker helping with?? I guess it can be a bonus Goyf to help overload their Decays in mirror-type matches (Jund/Shardless) given how bad BBE is vs Goyf?

[Rascalyote]

Best card of the set

Triskaidekaphobia 3B
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep choose 1:
-Each player at 13 life loses the game. Then each player gains 1 life.
-Each player at 13 life loses the game. Then each player loses 1 life.

:^)

[Lemnear]

Best card of the set

Triskaidekaphobia 3B
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep choose 1:
-Each player at 13 life loses the game. Then each player gains 1 life.
-Each player at 13 life loses the game. Then each player loses 1 life.

:^)

Pure troll card-name. 100% Protection from CabalTherapy.

[Noctalor]

Pure troll card-name. 100% Protection from CabalTherapy.

The name actually refers to a real life phobia, people scared of the number 13, so its really cool i guess.

If you plan to play a fun deck with this card i suggest the russian version, Трискаидекафобија :eek:

[Vicar in a tutu]

What do people think are the potential legacy-cards so far? Any cards other than Asylum Visitor and Thing in the Ice?

[Noctalor]

What do people think are the potential legacy-cards so far? Any cards other than Asylum Visitor and Thing in the Ice?

The 2R deavil could work in dragon stompy and a tuned version of painter, envelop on steroid will be played, nahiri has some potential in RW painters and the instant vindicate could be played as a 1 off

[Echelon]

What do people think are the potential legacy-cards so far? Any cards other than Asylum Visitor and Thing in the Ice?

The new Sorin and Tireless Tracker guy are under consideration for Nic Fit.

[LeoCop 90]

All the hate towards sin prodder is just absurd. He's just a good card overall, obviously not for legacy, but a good card. He's not even a punisher card, because what you get is always 3/2 menace for 3 : the "punisher" mechanic is then just an upside, that either draws you cards , damages the opponent, or worst case puts lands that you probably don't want in your bin. The more aggressive your deck is, the bigger the upside becomes because opponents can't afford to take extra damage. He will be a standard staple, and is at least as good as the green guy who makes clues for any other format.

[iamajellydonut]

or worst case puts lands that you probably don't want in your bin.

Every time I try to take Sin Prodder seriously, someone manages to ruin it by saying something like this.

stahp it.

It's not Countryside Crusher. The card below the land you just milled is no less likely to be a land just because the card before it was.

[wolfstorm]

Pure troll card-name. 100% Protection from CabalTherapy.

Laughed pretty hard at this, 100% true.

[QBChaz]

@VicarinaTutu Invasive Surgery is a very, very important card. It could potentially change the format by making gameplan defining sorceries way worse, for example Show and Tell and Natural Order. If your deck is built around a specific Sorcery, having it countered and then extracted seems very bad.

On another note, just one Rare/Mythic DFC remaining to be spoiled and it is Red. I had assumed a Legendary Werewolf would be RG; maybe if the flip side is Red/Green that plays into its EDH colour identity. Or the Legendary Werewolf has to wait til Eldritch Moon.

[iamajellydonut]

@VicarinaTutu Invasive Surgery is a very, very important card. It could potentially change the format by making gameplan defining sorceries way worse, for example Show and Tell and Natural Order. If your deck is built around a specific Sorcery, having it countered and then extracted seems very bad.

At the very least, it's a strictly more effective copy of a card that's already run.

That being said, it's not strictly better looking.

Card's fugly.

[Barook]

Pure troll card-name. 100% Protection from CabalTherapy.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/triskaidekaphobia

Not much worse than the color combination names Wizards comes up with lately (I'm looking at you, Khans Wedges).

[iamajellydonut]

(I'm looking at you, Khans Wedges).

Hey, I'm still a fan of Slutty Delver.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Ah, I completely forgot about the upgraded Envelop. It was spoiled so long ago.

[Infinitium]

Every time I try to take Sin Prodder seriously, someone manages to ruin it by saying something like this.

stahp it.

It's not Countryside Crusher. The card below the land you just milled is no less likely to be a land just because the card before it was.

Assume 50 cards left in your deck, 20 of which are lands. 20/50 = .40. Now assume that the tp card indeed is a land and is consequently discarded. 49 cards remain, 19 of which are lands. 19/49 ~ .39.

(1-.40) < (1-.39)

QED.

Of course, assuming the opponent always take face damage in order to deny cards then the odds of drawing 0cc cards remain unchanged.

[iamajellydonut]

omg stahp.

I know that X-1 is less than X, but it still doesn't make a tangible difference. Even going by your own shitty logic, it should work the other way around, too. They choose to mill a Lightning Bolt for one damage, and you'll inevitably draw a land because now there's less spells in your library.

wow. such trade.

It's a shit card and using shit logic to defend it doesn't actually make it better. Sin Prodder doesn't filter your library.

[spirit of the wretch]

It's a shit card and using shit logic to defend it doesn't actually make it better. Sin Prodder doesn't filter your library.

I honestly don't get the hate. Sure it doesn't filter your library. It's basically the same effect as if you just mill the top card each upkeep. So no real effect at all. BUT at the same time it domes your opponent (or draws you cards). That is a very real upside.

The card clearly isn't Legacy playable (3CC aggressive red card that isn't Sulfuric Vortex) I don't think, but it's not like the Podder is pure garbage.

[iamajellydonut]

BUT at the same time it domes your opponent (or draws you cards).

Except for when it doesn't 33% of the time.

[Echelon]

Except for when it doesn't 33% of the time.

So what you're saying is that 67% of the time it works all the time?

Sorry, I'm just trolling here.

Triskaidekaphobia.

[spirit of the wretch]

Except for when it doesn't 33% of the time.

That is true, but then again sometimes Price of Progress is just a blank. Sometimes your own Eidolon of the Great Revel locks you out. And flipping a Fireblast (or perhaps Flame Javelin or even Become Immense) off the Podder is pretty tits.

Again: most certainly not Legacy playable, but also not terrible per se I think.

[iamajellydonut]

So what you're saying is that 67% of the time it works all the time?

Sin Panther by Odeon.

[Redkid43]

Triskaidekaphobia is the best dollar rare ever.

[Cire]

I love Triskaidekaphobia!

Is this good, hell no, but it's hysterical.

13 Mardu//

4 Трискаидекафобија
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lava Spike
4 Lava Dart
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Orzhov Guildmage
4 STP
4 DRS

4 Ancient Tomb
10 Fetch
8 Other Lands

[H]

I love Triskaidekaphobia!

Is this good, hell no, but it's hysterical.

13 Mardu//

4 Трискаидекафобија
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lava Spike
4 Lava Dart
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Orzhov Guildmage
4 STP
4 DRS

4 Ancient Tomb
10 Fetch
8 Other Lands

"Everyone knows that Triskaidekaphobia is unplayable, but what this decklist presupposes is...maybe it isn't?"

http://i.imgur.com/HuGaoo7.jpg

[TsumiBand]

Assume 50 cards left in your deck, 20 of which are lands. 20/50 = .40. Now assume that the tp card indeed is a land and is consequently discarded. 49 cards remain, 19 of which are lands. 19/49 ~ .39.

(1-.40) < (1-.39)

QED.

Of course, assuming the opponent always take face damage in order to deny cards then the odds of drawing 0cc cards remain unchanged.

I mean, fetchlands are a great way to thin out your deck

[iamajellydonut]

I mean, fetchlands are a great way to thin out your deck

Remember to crack them before you cast Brainstorm so that you draw better cards.

[TsumiBand]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/122/851/635942368460926519.png

Dunno about you guys but my mono-Red Doran deck got a whole lot better

[Noctalor]

This should be insanely good in moon stompy right?

[Barook]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/images/daily/c4rd4r7_4PtlrfJixC.jpg

Art description: grey/dark sky; focus is on a blood-stained, battle-worn, dark angel; wields a garden fence

[H]

Art description: grey/dark sky; focus is on a blood-stained, battle-worn, dark angel; wields a garden fence

That art is sweet.

The card is not.

[Gheizen64]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/122/851/635942368460926519.png

Dunno about you guys but my mono-Red Doran deck got a whole lot better

Mmh ... it's probably better than abyssal persecutor? Or maybe not, not sure. Could be tried in Stompy lists but 2RR is a pretty high cmc that you don't want to see often. The problem i see with this is that stompy lists aren't traditionally big on damage dealt early on. They'd rather have a consistent threat than only a fast one. Could be proven wrong obviously.

[Cire]

Well . . . it's sort of a 4/4.5 which is a nice unhinged inspired type of design. :tongue:

[Fox]

ok so what happens when that 4/9 blocks a blightsteel? assign 5 to angel (dealing 10) and 6 to player (dealing 12) or is it 9 to angel (18) and 2 to player (4)?

[Infinitium]

I'd daresay I wouldn't play that in a list featuring Ancient Tomb, no.

[H]

This should be insanely good in moon stompy right?

Pretty sure I'd rather have Giant Solifuge, Hero of Oxid Ridge, or even Lava Hounds.

What good is hitting them for 4 with Haste if the ability literally means you would lose essentially any race?

[Cire]

"Everyone knows that Triskaidekaphobia is unplayable, but what this decklist presupposes is...maybe it isn't?"

Just having fun - I like brainstorming possible decklists. I know it's god awful.

[H]

ok so what happens when that 4/9 blocks a blightsteel? assign 5 to angel (dealing 10) and 6 to player (dealing 12) or is it 9 to angel (18) and 2 to player (4)?

The latter. The game doesn't look at doubling effects to figure out how you can assign lethal. You have to put 9 on the Angel and then 2 to the player. The 18 that actually gets dealt to the Angel doesn't really do anything (besides making it extra dead).


Just having fun - I like brainstorming possible decklists. I know it's god awful.

I got it man, it's a quote from a movie, :tongue:

[Fox]

The latter. The game doesn't look at doubling effects to figure out how you can assign lethal. You have to put 9 on the Angel and then 2 to the player. The 18 that actually gets dealt to the Angel doesn't really do anything (besides making it extra dead).
Well then, in that case red Shahrazad has arrived: Arcbond (speaking of hilarious dollar rares)

[jrsthethird]

The name actually refers to a real life phobia, people scared of the number 13, so its really cool i guess.

If you plan to play a fun deck with this card i suggest the russian version, Трискаидекафобија :eek:

Google Translate gives a much more interesting translation: боязнь числа 13.


ok so what happens when that 4/9 blocks a blightsteel? assign 5 to angel (dealing 10) and 6 to player (dealing 12) or is it 9 to angel (18) and 2 to player (4)?

Rule 702.19b states, in part, that:


The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt.

The trample damage assignment occurs before any effects that may modify that damage take place. So you have to assign at least 9 damage to the Angel first, and then 2 to the defending player. Then the Angel's abilities double both instances of damage, so you have 18 on the Angel and 4 on yourself. Finally, because of Infect, the damage happens in the form of the respective counters and your Angel is toast.

[dte]

Remember to crack them before you cast Brainstorm so that you draw better cards.

It is always good to remember that this option exists. It is rarely the best one, but I've more often seen people misplaying by failing to do this than the contrary.

[tescrin]

Remember to crack them before you cast Brainstorm so that you draw better cards.

You seem to be implying that it's not true. I get that it's better to shuffle away the cards you don't want, but then you'd be making a False Equivalence you sly dog; and I know you wouldn't want to make an easily identifiable and obvious fallacy the basis of your argument.

[Darkenslight]

Hi, Werewolf-Lord:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeLWqquUMAARDEq.png

[(nameless one)]

Would this be good in manaless dredge:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/151/701/635942969575394281.jpg

[Darkenslight]

Also, there's this preview card. (http://brainstormbrewery.com/brainstorm-brewery-187-previews-baby/)

Fevered Visions :1: :u: :r:
Enchantment (R)
At the beginning of each player's end step, that player draws a card. If that player is your opponent and he or she has four or more cards in hand, ~ deals 2 damage to him or her.

A nice, cheap card-draw/win-condition in one card. It might see fringe play in Modern URx Delver decks, but will absolutely be a blast in Standard UR Prowess.

[Echelon]

Would this be good in manaless dredge:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/151/701/635942969575394281.jpg

The timing of it looks awkward. The deck combos out at sorcery speed so you'd prefer creatures entering the battlefield at a moment where you can sacrifice them during comboing out rather than having to wait a turn for it to happen.

I will at least try it out though. Being able to switch my Dakmor Salvages and Bloodghasts for Shambling Shells and 4 of that guy seems like a good thing. That means I can also go back from Whirlpool Drake to Balustrade Spy as DR target. Gives me more food for my Ichorids too and would allow me to combo off with just 2 Dread Return. Just flip the library and get Flayer of the Hatebound on the field. At the end of my turn that'd be 12 damage to my opponent, followed by 16 more during my upkeep.

I'm starting to like it.

[Bobmans]

Hi, Werewolf-Lord:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeLWqquUMAARDEq.png
Sigh, why o why is it an enchantment and not a 2/2 or 3/3 (Legendary) Wolf creature....

[Lemnear]

Also, there's this preview card. (http://brainstormbrewery.com/brainstorm-brewery-187-previews-baby/)

Fevered Visions :1: :u: :r:
Enchantment (R)
At the beginning of each player's end step, that player draws a card. If that player is your opponent and he or she has four or more cards in hand, ~ deals 2 damage to him or her.

A nice, cheap card-draw/win-condition in one card. It might see fringe play in Modern URx Delver decks, but will absolutely be a blast in Standard UR Prowess.

Come on, this is tailormade for Stasis. Howling Mine + Killcondition in a single card

[Noctalor]

I have a lot of experience with the deck and i can tell that this card

https://i.gyazo.com/89b6a1c4f161ac1775af013cb57366a5.jpg

is just absurd in dredge and will be a 4 of in any single list ever, there is no way this isnt total bonkes :laugh:

[Echelon]

I have a lot of experience with the deck and i can tell that this card

https://i.gyazo.com/89b6a1c4f161ac1775af013cb57366a5.jpg

is just absurd in dredge and will be a 4 of in any single list ever, there is no way this isnt total bonkes :laugh:

Even in LED Dredge? I'm just a Manaless pilot.

You did see it only enters the battlefield at the beginning of the next endstep, right? It doesn't ETB as soon as a Narcomoeba/Ichorid/DR target hits the field.

[Noctalor]

In my opinion there is no way this card is not a 4 of in any list, led dredge included, is just too good to have other 4 possible bodies to spawn for free, is good if you have to rush since they act as pseudo ichorid (given that they will enter in eot with your narco so you get then next turn as you get ichorids) and they are amazing in grindy games as well.

[Echelon]

In my opinion there is no way this card is not a 4 of in any list, led dredge included, is just too good to have other 4 possible bodies to spawn for free, is good if you have to rush since they act as pseudo ichorid (given that they will enter in eot with your narco so you get then next turn as you get ichorids) and they are amazing in grindy games as well.

Yes to the grindy games bit. It's sad to see they can't block after they ETB though.

On the other hand, dredge is so fast that's mostly just icing on the cake.

They're beefier than Bloodghast too, so that's a big plus as well.

[TheArchitect]

In my opinion there is no way this card is not a 4 of in any list, led dredge included, is just too good to have other 4 possible bodies to spawn for free, is good if you have to rush since they act as pseudo ichorid (given that they will enter in eot with your narco so you get then next turn as you get ichorids) and they are amazing in grindy games as well.

I don't know for sure if it is an auto 4-of in LED dredge, but it is definitely VERY good, almost ichorid level. The fact that it is blue is also relevant. It might make the manaless lists with FoW in the SB more viable.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Even in LED Dredge? I'm just a Manaless pilot.

You did see it only enters the battlefield at the beginning of the next endstep, right? It doesn't ETB as soon as a Narcomoeba/Ichorid/DR target hits the field.

I would like it in a value list. Careful Study discarding this and Bloodghast. Recurring nightmare xD.

[Darkenslight]

Even in LED Dredge? I'm just a Manaless pilot.

You did see it only enters the battlefield at the beginning of the next endstep, right? It doesn't ETB as soon as a Narcomoeba/Ichorid/DR target hits the field.

It's relevant against Terminus from Miracles, but that's a niche thing - they have to deal with your hordes mid-combat, but by that time, if they haven't got rid of your graveyard, you get at least one 3/3 back, and likely more.

It warrants testing, but I think you'd have to modify the core shell of Dredge slightly to accomodate this. Moreover, it's extra triggers from Bridge from Below when they finally kick the bucket.

[rufus]

Even in LED Dredge? I'm just a Manaless pilot.

You did see it only enters the battlefield at the beginning of the next endstep, right? It doesn't ETB as soon as a Narcomoeba/Ichorid/DR target hits the field.

It's a link between Bloodghast or Narcomoeba and Gravecrawler. That zombie horde is getting bigger.

[BenBleiweiss]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_LsYpeyc5Iu.png

Yes/No/Maybe so? The 3rd clause (Whenever a land is put into your graveyard from ANYWHERE) seems like it could be absurd with dredge.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Well I'm definitely playing some stupid loam deck with this guy.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_LsYpeyc5Iu.png

[Noctalor]

So this post is useless now, ill swap it with this photo

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xla1/v/t1.0-0/s526x395/11165228_1152242074794501_9169201999757911521_n.jpg?oh=014d867666609eddcad9c32791c067e3&oe=57526FB1


I saw this post on Reddit: "13 drops of blood, 13 shards of glass, 13 stones in the arch, 13 more stones make up the fireplace, 13 logs in the fireplace, 13 boards in the ceiling, 13 boards on the wall, 13 bolts on the barrel, 13 kitchen utensils hanging, 13 instances of the letter "t" on the card, 13 words in EACH mode (excluding the number 13), and the mana cost is ONE black and THREE generic. THAT'S THIRTEEN THIRTEENS!!"

[rufus]

Does Inexorable Mass push green chalice aggro forward in any meaningful way?'

EDIT: Nevermind, Delirium...

[KobeBryan]

Even in LED Dredge? I'm just a Manaless pilot.

You did see it only enters the battlefield at the beginning of the next endstep, right? It doesn't ETB as soon as a Narcomoeba/Ichorid/DR target hits the field.

Doesnt this need to be in play for irs effect

[Cire]

Forgotten Creation - 3U
Creature - Zombie Horror [rare]
Skulk
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may discard your hand. If you do, draw that many cards.
3/3

Probably too expensive for legacy (but it is blue) but it seems like a great engine for madness.

[maharis]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_RZ1gvSMkFI.png

Playing in the Oath of Nissa space some more.

Is there a reason this doesn't say "permanent card"? Seems weird to list them all like that. They have used "permanent card" recently, with Genesis Hydra, so I can't imagine there's rules wonkiness. New permanent type coming?

[zyren]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_RZ1gvSMkFI.png

Playing in the Oath of Nissa space some more.

Is there a reason this doesn't say "permanent card"? Seems weird to list them all like that. They have used "permanent card" recently, with Genesis Hydra, so I can't imagine there's rules wonkiness. New permanent type coming?

In case there ends up being another permanent type in the future. This happened when planeswalkers came out. Some cards that used "permanent" got stronger, some got weaker.

[Bobmans]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_LsYpeyc5Iu.png

Yes/No/Maybe so? The 3rd clause (Whenever a land is put into your graveyard from ANYWHERE) seems like it could be absurd with dredge.

Sweet... brewing time. And it is GSZ able.

[Darkenslight]

Sweet... brewing time. And it is GSZ able.

Yep. You cvan't forget the middle clauses, either. It seems like a really good SB card for Loam decks in general, what with the upkeep trigger and the Exploratrion effect tacked on.

[Barook]

Yes/No/Maybe so? The 3rd clause (Whenever a land is put into your graveyard from ANYWHERE) seems like it could be absurd with dredge.
Loam comes into mind first, especially with the build-in Exploration effect, but some kind of Dredge combo to mill a good chunk of your library isn't too outlandish, either. But when would it be a better Dread Return target than other stuff?

Edit: Also bonkers with KotR.

[Noctalor]

Loam comes into mind first, especially with the build-in Exploration effect, but some kind of Dredge combo to mill a good chunk of your library isn't too outlandish, either. But when would it be a better Dread Return target than other stuff?

Edit: Also bonkers with KotR.

Cant be a better DR target than Griselbrand.

[Finn]

I'm curious about the delayed trigger on the Amalgam. It appears to create these triggers by its own action of returning to the battlefield. If you get four zombies ala Bridge from below from your main phase, do you get four EOT triggers? What zone must the Prized Amalgam be in to accrue these triggers?

If that is so, do you then get the opportunity to resolve a trigger and bring the Amalgam the battlefield (or two of them if you had two in the yard when you got the triggers), then sac it to something like Carrion Feeder (get a zombie or "some zombies" from Bridge[s]) (get a trigger[s] for next turn), bring it back again (second trigger from your main phase), sac it again, and so on?

If that works, you appear to get an endless and increasing stream of EOT triggers on successive turns. It is dizzying.

[tescrin]

Loam comes into mind first, especially with the build-in Exploration effect, but some kind of Dredge combo to mill a good chunk of your library isn't too outlandish, either. But when would it be a better Dread Return target than other stuff?

Edit: Also bonkers with KotR.

Dredge has grisel.
Maverick/Nic-Fit has Titania.

There is no reason to talk about a card that offers no immediate CA, no evasion, a slower clock, no protection/hexproof, and probably other issues. Titania outclasses it in every respect while not hardly being used in the only decks that could adopt EDH fodder (Maverick/Nic Fit.)

[iamajellydonut]

You seem to be implying that it's not true. I get that it's better to shuffle away the cards you don't want, but then you'd be making a False Equivalence you sly dog; and I know you wouldn't want to make an easily identifiable and obvious fallacy the basis of your argument.

There are certainly very good reasons to crack a fetchland before casting Brainstorm, such as hiding cards from Thoughtseize or setting up cascade, but if you're cracking fetchlands for the exclusive purpose of thinning you're deck before a Brainstorm, you're doing it wrong. And, sure, there are circumstances when there is one hope, such as having only one mana left and Lightning Bolt being the kill-or-be-killed, but those should be extremes. It remains a generic truth that cracking fetchlands for thinning is dumb.

[Finn]

OK, I had a big conversation with a friend about this card. The templating is only confusing because of what I want to do with it. I think you need two to maximize it. The important details include the fact that this card does not say "if Prized Amalgam is in your graveyard", so you have to have it on the battlefield for it to create any triggers. I don't think it gets triggers while it is in the graveyard. Best case scenario is that you have one otb and another in the yard. You keep the one on the battlefield and sac the other over and over. You can then get increasingly large numbers of triggers and zombies on successive turns.

But you can't just dump it in the yard and get any benefit ala Careful Study.

[Cire]

OK, I had a big conversation with a friend about this card. The templating is only confusing because of what I want to do with it. I think you need two to maximize it. The important details include the fact that this card does not say "if Prized Amalgam is in your graveyard", so you have to have it on the battlefield for it to get any triggers. I don't think it gets triggers while it is in the graveyard. Best case scenario is that you have one otb and another in the yard. You keep the one on the battlefield and sac the other over and over. You can then get increasingly large numbers of triggers and zombies on successive turns.

Wait what? I don't get this at all to be honest.

[tescrin]

There are certainly very good reasons to crack a fetchland before casting Brainstorm, such as hiding cards from Thoughtseize or setting up cascade, but if you're cracking fetchlands for the exclusive purpose of thinning you're deck before a Brainstorm, you're doing it wrong. And, sure, there are circumstances when there is one hope, such as having only one mana left and Lightning Bolt being the kill-or-be-killed, but those should be extremes. It remains a generic truth that cracking fetchlands for thinning is dumb.

It's dumb/you're correct/I agree, but I was pointing out that:

Remember to crack them before you cast Brainstorm so that you draw better cards.

is technically true. It is deterministic and provable that you will draw less lands (statistically) if you crack before you Brainstorm (hence why when we're desperate we do it.) The reasons we don't are because other factors of the game have a larger impact than the meager statistical advantage (such as shuffling away garbage cards from your hand rather than brainlocking yourself.)

We're in agreement in the general sense (and I get you were being sarcastic); but I was being a twat by pointing out that your sarcasm doesn't quite work as it technically is true (given the above.) I should probably stop doing that but it is my nature to be impish.

[Finn]

Wait what? I don't get this at all to be honest.

I believe that I understand the card now, but it was not obvious, and I am guessing that most of us are reading the card wrong.

It does nothing if it is in the graveyard at the time in which a creature goes from the graveyard to the battlefield. It's text does not specify that it must be in the yard, so it only creates the delayed trigger if it is on the battlefield. (what do Thalia, Meddling Mage, and Goblin Warchief do from the graveyard? Nothing. Same as this card.) This is strange as hell because the card refers to itself, and demands that it change zones for its trigger to have any effect. It can not possibly have a memory of changing zones, so another copy of it will do. Finally, it CAN trigger its own ability, but only if another copy of the card is on the battlefield when the trigger would be created. Otherwise, the card is not yet on the battlefield at time in which the delayed trigger would be added. Actually, I am fuzzy on that part still.

So, you can do sickening things with it in dredge, but only if you are willing to animate it first or pay three mana, and only then once a couple of turns have past. So, I see this card making little to no impact. That is, if I actually understand it.

[Delvis]

OK, I had a big conversation with a friend about this card. The templating is only confusing because of what I want to do with it. I think you need two to maximize it. The important details include the fact that this card does not say "if Prized Amalgam is in your graveyard", so you have to have it on the battlefield for it to create any triggers. I don't think it gets triggers while it is in the graveyard. Best case scenario is that you have one otb and another in the yard. You keep the one on the battlefield and sac the other over and over. You can then get increasingly large numbers of triggers and zombies on successive turns.

But you can't just dump it in the yard and get any benefit ala Careful Study.

What are you talking about? The card is clearly designed to return from your graveyard to the battlefield if you cast a creature from your grave or reanimate something.

If you cast Careful Study and discarded this and, say, Elesh Norn, and then the next turn Exhumed Elesh Norn, this would then trigger at your end step and return to the battlefield.

Another example, perhaps more relevant: if you dredge back a Grave Troll and milled Narcomoeba and Prized Amalgam, the Narcomoeba would trigger, return to the battlefield, and then the Amalgam would trigger at the end step and return to the battlefield.

I don't know what you're going on about it needing to be on the battlefield in order to get the trigger to return to the battlefield from the graveyard but I'm quite sure it's based on a misunderstanding of some kind. You might be well served by re-reading Vengevine. Edit: or Bloodghast.

[Bobmans]

Dredge has grisel.
Maverick/Nic-Fit has Titania.

There is no reason to talk about a card that offers no immediate CA, no evasion, a slower clock, no protection/hexproof, and probably other issues. Titania outclasses it in every respect while not hardly being used in the only decks that could adopt EDH fodder (Maverick/Nic Fit.)
Have just brewed up a NicFit list with this. I clearly have more faith in the capabilities of the card then you. No problem, gonna test it and see where it takes me.

[Richard Cheese]

I believe that I understand the card now, but it was not obvious, and I am guessing that most of us are reading the card wrong.

It does nothing if it is in the graveyard at the time in which a creature goes from the graveyard to the battlefield. It's text does not specify that it must be in the yard, so it only creates the delayed trigger if it is on the battlefield. (what do Thalia, Meddling Mage, and Goblin Warchief do from the graveyard? Nothing. Same as this card.) This is strange as hell because the card refers to itself, and demands that it change zones for its trigger to have any effect. It can not possibly have a memory of changing zones, so another copy of it will do. Finally, it CAN trigger its own ability, but only if another copy of the card is on the battlefield when the trigger would be created. Otherwise, the card is not yet on the battlefield at time in which the delayed trigger would be added. Actually, I am fuzzy on that part still.

So, you can do sickening things with it in dredge, but only if you are willing to animate it first or pay three mana, and only then once a couple of turns have past. So, I see this card making little to no impact. That is, if I actually understand it.

What? Isn't it templated exactly the same as Bloodghast? Just replace the trigger clause with "Landfall" and they're nearly the same card.

[Finn]

That's true. I'm sure you are right. My mind might be failing me, but this seems to make a stupid number of tokens.



Anyone know if this guy changing zones affects the triggers? Can you return the same card over and over?

To see what I mean, run through my example with bridge and carrion feeder.

[Megadeus]

I believe he's asking like, if this is in hand, you trigger a bloodghast and bring it back, then discard this. Does it see that a creature came back and trigger? Or does it need to already be in the yard when the returng happens? Or if multiple men die in a turn will multiple triggers happen? If so would it slow you to sacrifice this guy between triggers and continue bringing him back?

[bruizar]

So this post is useless now, ill swap it with this photo

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xla1/v/t1.0-0/s526x395/11165228_1152242074794501_9169201999757911521_n.jpg?oh=014d867666609eddcad9c32791c067e3&oe=57526FB1

i love this

[Finn]

Crap. Vengevine says this:

Vengevine doesn't need to be in your graveyard as you start casting your second creature spell in a turn, only as you finish. This matters if you sacrifice a Vengevine on the battlefield while casting that creature spell, perhaps to pay a cost of that spell or a cost of a mana ability.

Bloodghast says this:

Bloodghast's landfall ability triggers only if it's already in your graveyard at the time a land enters the battlefield under your control.




Bloodghast has a hidden intervening IF. Vengevine does not. This is despite the templating on the cards being identical. I'm confused. We do not know if this new card does or not, and it is important. Can it accrue triggers, get sacrificed, get more, and so on?

Oh wait. Scratch that. Rereading Vengevine's ruling, they both do. It seems that Amalgam must be in the graveyard when the creature enters the battlefield to create the trigger. If so, it does not trigger itself even if you sacrifice it as a fast effect.

Does that seem right?

[GenghisTom]

I believe he's asking like, if this is in hand, you trigger a bloodghast and bring it back, then discard this. Does it see that a creature came back and trigger? Or does it need to already be in the yard when the returng happens? Or if multiple men die in a turn will multiple triggers happen? If so would it slow you to sacrifice this guy between triggers and continue bringing him back?

It's probably like Lifeline where it triggers twice: the first trigger happens only if Amalgam is in graveyard and when another creature enters the battlefield from the graveyard. The second triggers happens (only if the first trigger happened) at the end step and checks if Amalgam is still in your graveyard, then returns it to the battlefield.

As for the multiple trigger question I'm not sure. Could certainly be some Goblin Bombardment shenanigans.

[rufus]

i love this

Also 13 rivets on the barrel bands.

[Parcher]

The trigger is only based on two things, excluding what zone the card is in. 1) Did a creature enter play from the graveyard? and 2) Is it the beginning of end step?

It's just like Ichorid. Once, at the beginning of end step, the card will check. If that requirement is satisfied, the card will trigger. It doesn't care how many times the conditions were met. It only triggers once, since the trigger is only activated during a phase, which can only happen once per turn. If you can satisfy the condition before the end of every turn, any of those cards in your graveyard will trigger every turn. Once.

[GenghisTom]

The trigger is only based on two things, excluding what zone the card is in. 1) Did a creature enter play from the graveyard? and 2) Is it the beginning of end step?

It's just like Ichorid. Once, at the beginning of end step, the card will check. If that requirement is satisfied, the card will trigger. It doesn't care how many times the conditions were met. It only triggers once, since the trigger is only activated during a phase, which can only happen once per turn. If you can satisfy the condition before the end of every turn, any of those cards in your graveyard will trigger every turn. Once.

I think if this were the case it would be worded "At the beginning of you end step, if a creature entered the battlefield from your graveyard this turn, return XXX from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped."
Since this has the word "Whenever", the trigger happens when the "Whenever" part happens.

Disclaimer: I'm not a judge and could be very wrong

[Parcher]

You might be right. The wording in the first sentence is odd. I don't think it can trigger more than once though. Even if it did, the triggers can only resolve once. Again, because the wording is odd, to the point I actually think they made a mistake, it doesn't list a requisite zone for the card to be in. So it may be possible. But with the new rulings in this set regarding the inability to stack multiple triggers on flip cards, it doesn't seems likely they did this intentionally.

[Richard Cheese]

Crap. Vengevine says this:

Vengevine doesn't need to be in your graveyard as you start casting your second creature spell in a turn, only as you finish. This matters if you sacrifice a Vengevine on the battlefield while casting that creature spell, perhaps to pay a cost of that spell or a cost of a mana ability.

Bloodghast says this:

Bloodghast's landfall ability triggers only if it's already in your graveyard at the time a land enters the battlefield under your control.




Bloodghast has a hidden intervening IF. Vengevine does not. This is despite the templating on the cards being identical. I'm confused. We do not know if this new card does or not, and it is important. Can it accrue triggers, get sacrificed, get more, and so on?

Oh wait. Scratch that. Rereading Vengevine's ruling, they both do. It seems that Amalgam must be in the graveyard when the creature enters the battlefield to create the trigger. If so, it does not trigger itself even if you sacrifice it as a fast effect.

Does that seem right?

Yeah I believe the ruling on Vengevine is just to clarify that if you sac it as part of the cost for playing the spell, it will be in the yard and trigger, since technically you declare targets and pay costs before you actually put a spell on the stack.

I don't think anything special happens with two of these guys either. The first will trigger the second, but at that point the "beginning" of that end step has already passed, so the second will show up at the beginning of the next end step, correct? Not a bad interaction if you've got a sac outlet, but not some kind of infinite loop either.

[H]

You might be right. The wording in the first sentence is odd. I don't think it can trigger more than once though. Even if it did, the triggers can only resolve once. Again, because the wording is odd, to the point I actually think they made a mistake, it doesn't list a requisite zone for the card to be in. So it may be possible. But with the new rulings in this set regarding the inability to stack multiple triggers on flip cards, it doesn't seems likely they did this intentionally.

It's awkward wording, but I don't think it's a mistake really. Remember when Tymaret, the Murder King came out? People felt like he had to be able to sacrifice himself to return himself. In reality, there is a "rule" somewhere that if an ability mentions being in a zone, it needs to be in that zone to be used. I think the same goes for triggers.

[Di]

Some discussion was on this last page but nothing regarding this issue specifically, but I don't think tokens created from Bridge from Below trigger this. Just because Bridge is in the graveyard doesn't necessarily mean that the tokens ETB from the graveyard themselves. Can we get confirmation on this? I didn't see anything in the comprehensive rules section regarding tokens in relation to how they are put into play either.

[Delvis]

I believe he's asking like, if this is in hand, you trigger a bloodghast and bring it back, then discard this. Does it see that a creature came back and trigger? Or does it need to already be in the yard when the returng happens? Or if multiple men die in a turn will multiple triggers happen? If so would it slow you to sacrifice this guy between triggers and continue bringing him back?

If this is the confusion, then that's a separate issue.

The triggered ability on Amalgam is actually two separate triggers: the first trigger happens when Amalgam is in your graveyard and a creature enters your [EDIT:] the battlefield from the graveyard (either by casting or reanimation). When that trigger resolves, it sets up a delayed trigger that will return Amalgam to the battlefield from your grave at the beginning of the next end step. In this way, it's sort of similar to how Geist of Saint Traft works: the first trigger makes an Angel and sets up the delayed trigger, and the delayed trigger exiles the Angel at end of combat.

When the Amalgam's delayed trigger is put on the stack, it will check to verify that the Amalgam card that triggered is still in the grave. If it is, it will return that card to the battlefield. If it isn't, it won't do anything.

In case you are wondering: if the card changed zones in the meantime (e.g. it was returned to hand/put into exile and then went back into the grave), the trigger will fail to find the original object that triggered and do nothing. [EDIT:] So in your follow-up, "would you be able to sacrifice Amalgam before its other triggers resolve and still return it to the battlefield", the answer is no, because it's a new object every time it changes zones and the other triggers wouldn't find it.

Bridge from Below is different because it has an "intervening if" clause (i.e. "if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, do X."). An intervening if clause means the trigger will only trigger and go on the stack if the clause's criterion is met, so in Bridge's case, it will only trigger and go on the stack if the Bridge is in the grave. The intervening if also checks on resolution, so if the Bridge is no longer in the graveyard, the triggered ability will do nothing on resolution. This is why you can kill your own creature or otherwise exile the Bridge in response to the Zombie-making trigger and they don't get any Zombies.

In general, though, if a card has a triggered ability that references moving it from one zone to another, that triggered ability will only trigger if it's in the specified zone. This is also true of cards that have activated abilities that move them from one zone to another, like Torrent Elemental, Derevi, or anything with Unearth, where you can only activate the ability if it's in exile/the command zone/the graveyard (see Derevi's ruling: "10/17/2013: You can activate Derevi’s last ability only when it is in the command zone."). This is mostly a common-sense thing, but I can see how it would be confusing here.


Now, I have to caveat all of this by saying: new sets bring rules changes, so this ruling could be different by the time the set rolls around. But I highly doubt it and am very confident in this answer.


Some discussion was on this last page but nothing regarding this issue specifically, but I don't think tokens created from Bridge from Below trigger this. Just because Bridge is in the graveyard doesn't necessarily mean that the tokens ETB from the graveyard themselves. Can we get confirmation on this? I didn't see anything in the comprehensive rules section regarding tokens in relation to how they are put into play either.

No, Bridge tokens won't trigger Amalgam; the tokens are being generated. The Amalgam checks to see if an object (specifically, a creature) changed zones from the graveyard to the battlefield, or if a creature spell was cast from the graveyard a lá Gravecrawler. Tokens being created would not satisfy this condition.

[Barook]

Altered Ego X:2::g::u:
Creature - Shapeshifter
Altered Ego can't be countered.
You may have Altered Ego enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield, except it enters with X additional +1/+1 counters on it.
0/0

GSZ-able Clone variant (2 mana cheaper than Progenitor Mimic). Not sure if it has any applications.

[Megadeus]

4 mana, green sun target, niche use? Insert Nic Fit suggestion here

[ahg113]

... the first trigger happens when Amalgam is in your graveyard and a creature enters your battlefield from the graveyard (either by casting or reanimation).

Agree the card is worded, "funny", but the card doesn't specify where the your-graveyard-to-play creature ends up. I think some of the vague wording allows this to trigger if an opponent steals/reanimates a creature from your graveyard, this zombie would still return. It would seem throw away usually, but this probably has some casual/EDH facet appeal etc.

From the talk about how it triggers, I think Delvis is on point. Delayed benefit, but should be in play the turn it is triggered.

[Delvis]

Agree the card is worded, "funny", but the card doesn't specify where the creature ends up. I think some of the vague wording allows this to trigger if an opponent steals/reanimates a creature from your graveyard, this zombie would still return. It would seem throw away usually, but this probably has some casual/EDH facet appeal etc.

From the talk about how it triggers, I think Delvis is on point. Delayed benefit, but should be in play the turn it is triggered.

Yes, you are correct. I used a poor choice of words. It doesn't have to enter *your* battlefield, it just has to enter *the* battlefield, but it has to enter/be cast from your graveyard to satisfy the trigger condition. I'll edit now for posterity.

One caveat to your post: if a creature returns to the battlefield in an end step, the Amalgam won't return until the following end step.

[ahg113]

Yes, you are correct. I used a poor choice of words. It doesn't have to enter *your* battlefield, it just has to enter *the* battlefield, but it has to enter/be cast from your graveyard to satisfy the trigger condition. I'll edit now for posterity.

One caveat to your post: if a creature returns to the battlefield in an end step, the Amalgam won't return until the following end step.

I like you because you enjoy being technically correct, the best kind of correct.

I'd the flip the shit out of any non-bolted down table we would play magic on, never come to Philadelphia.

[tescrin]

Have just brewed up a NicFit list with this. I clearly have more faith in the capabilities of the card then you. No problem, gonna test it and see where it takes me.

I mean certainly it may work. I just can't imagine hardly any scenario where you'd get this in play and be in a better situation than Titania. Like.. imagine for a second:

GSZ for 6, KotR on the field, waste in the grave for argument sake

This guy -> Sac a land, grab a waste, waste the opponent. Draw two cards. Sac a land and draw a card. you have 6/6 and a kotr
Titania -> Get a free wasteland, waste the opponent. Sac a land, grab a fetch or waste, fetch/waste a land. Get three 5/3 tokens and a 5/3 dude, and a kotr.

The only thing the frog is better for are board wipes or reaction pieces (maybe you need a counter or removal)

[rufus]

Some discussion was on this last page but nothing regarding this issue specifically, but I don't think tokens created from Bridge from Below trigger this. Just because Bridge is in the graveyard doesn't necessarily mean that the tokens ETB from the graveyard themselves. Can we get confirmation on this? I didn't see anything in the comprehensive rules section regarding tokens in relation to how they are put into play either.

Bridge from below tokens don't enter the battlefield from the graveyard, and they're not cast from the graveyard. Thus they won't trigger the Amalgam.

To get the trigger from something that isn't a creature card, you'd need something whacky like Startled Awake that changes types in transition.

[Noctalor]

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12794470_10208563035615385_8482593268549312560_n.jpg?oh=322c499c795698a1e689191ee8d9c837&oe=577AEC2C

[Fox]

Now after each clue comes out you have to do a haunt roll to find out who's the traitor right? [betrayal at house on the hill]

[ivanpei]

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12794470_10208563035615385_8482593268549312560_n.jpg?oh=322c499c795698a1e689191ee8d9c837&oe=577AEC2C

This looks like a weaker "fixed" dig through time for dream halls/omniscience decks.

It's actually quite good. It's either a full combo piece with omniscience or hard castable with sol lands. I like it.

[HammerAndSickled]

This looks like a weaker "fixed" dig through time for dream halls/omniscience decks.

It's actually quite good. It's either a full combo piece with omniscience or hard castable with sol lands. I like it.

Lol. That card's from BFZ, it's not a spoiler. It already exists and it sucks.

[ivanpei]

Oops haha. Too bad.

[HammerAndSickled]

People are underestimating the Toad I think (The Gitrog Horror). The card is 5 mana in legacy, I do understand that. However, his effect is just insane. The "whenever a land enters your graveyard from anywhere" text is just fundamentally broken and I think we should explore these options.
1. Dredge. Any time you dredge and hit a land, you trigger this guy. Which lets you replace draws with other dredges. Effectively each draw becomes "dredge each card with Dredge in your graveyard until you don't hit a land." If you don't wanna play him in a dedicated dredge deck there are obvious synergies with Loam and Dakmor Salvage.
2. Specifically, Dakmor Salvage has a ton of synergy with this guy and any effect that lets you discard on command. Seismic Assault, Salvage, and Toad is a loop: you mill yourself 2 to dome them for 2. With Molten Vortex it's the same thing except they cost a R each time. Even a card like Magmatic Insight becomes Ancestral with this dude out.
3. Any lands that naturally bin themselves (Waste and fetchlands) have a lot of synergy. With Loam and two sac-able lands you're effectively drawing 4 extra cards a turn. One from Toad's upkeep trigger, which presumably dredges Loam and hits a land, drawing you a fresh card, then your draw for turn, then draw for each sacrificed land. This is a TON of card advantage. Now, they're likely to be drawing a ton of lands and Loams and not a ton of gas, which brings me to my last point:
4. The most broken interaction this thing has is with the cleanup step. You're filling your hand with Toad triggers and lands picked up off Loams, but what do you really do with that to convert it to material advantage? The toad does this itself. It's not a commonly-known rule, but when something triggers in the cleanup step, both players get priority, the trigger resolves, and then you have another cleanup step, and this repeats until you get a cleanup where no players get priority. With the Toad, his "discarded a land" trigger meets that criteria. So you have 8 cards or more, move to discard, pitch a land. Trigger the toad. Draw a card. Now the next cleanup step, you're still at 8, pitch a land. This means that ending the turn lets you trade every land in your hand for a real spell out of your deck. This ability is pretty absurd if you really think about it. Getting Loam advantage was real enough for some decks to never be able to come back, but ensuring a hand full of 7 actual spells every time you untap is even more ridiculous.

I'm going to be writing an article about the potential this guy has sometime next week, but I just wanted people to be aware of the weird ways this card interacts with the rules. There is a lot of potential here.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Dredge has grisel.
Maverick/Nic-Fit has Titania.

There is no reason to talk about a card that offers no immediate CA, no evasion, a slower clock, no protection/hexproof, and probably other issues. Titania outclasses it in every respect while not hardly being used in the only decks that could adopt EDH fodder (Maverick/Nic Fit.)

It has built in CA if you have a fetchland in your hand... Just be sure to play and sac it asap.

The land from "everywhere" condition is also interesting... endless dredge? Some weird combo?

[Scott]

I don't know shit about Aggro Loam as I've never played it, but when I saw the frog, my first thought was of a suped-up Countryside Crusher type thing, but in the variety with Green Sun's Zenith. Any chance of that?

[Vicar in a tutu]

People are underestimating the Toad I think (The Gitrog Horror). The card is 5 mana in legacy, I do understand that. However, his effect is just insane. The "whenever a land enters your graveyard from anywhere" text is just fundamentally broken and I think we should explore these options.
1. Dredge. Any time you dredge and hit a land, you trigger this guy. Which lets you replace draws with other dredges. Effectively each draw becomes "dredge each card with Dredge in your graveyard until you don't hit a land." If you don't wanna play him in a dedicated dredge deck there are obvious synergies with Loam and Dakmor Salvage.
2. Specifically, Dakmor Salvage has a ton of synergy with this guy and any effect that lets you discard on command. Seismic Assault, Salvage, and Toad is a loop: you mill yourself 2 to dome them for 2. With Molten Vortex it's the same thing except they cost a R each time. Even a card like Magmatic Insight becomes Ancestral with this dude out.
3. Any lands that naturally bin themselves (Waste and fetchlands) have a lot of synergy. With Loam and two sac-able lands you're effectively drawing 4 extra cards a turn. One from Toad's upkeep trigger, which presumably dredges Loam and hits a land, drawing you a fresh card, then your draw for turn, then draw for each sacrificed land. This is a TON of card advantage. Now, they're likely to be drawing a ton of lands and Loams and not a ton of gas, which brings me to my last point:
4. The most broken interaction this thing has is with the cleanup step. You're filling your hand with Toad triggers and lands picked up off Loams, but what do you really do with that to convert it to material advantage? The toad does this itself. It's not a commonly-known rule, but when something triggers in the cleanup step, both players get priority, the trigger resolves, and then you have another cleanup step, and this repeats until you get a cleanup where no players get priority. With the Toad, his "discarded a land" trigger meets that criteria. So you have 8 cards or more, move to discard, pitch a land. Trigger the toad. Draw a card. Now the next cleanup step, you're still at 8, pitch a land. This means that ending the turn lets you trade every land in your hand for a real spell out of your deck. This ability is pretty absurd if you really think about it. Getting Loam advantage was real enough for some decks to never be able to come back, but ensuring a hand full of 7 actual spells every time you untap is even more ridiculous.

I'm going to be writing an article about the potential this guy has sometime next week, but I just wanted people to be aware of the weird ways this card interacts with the rules. There is a lot of potential here.
What I don't get about this toad, is which deck would noticeably increase it's win rate against the field by using it? Like you mentioned, it's 5 mana. Sucks against combo, doesn't it? Sure, Nic Fit might brew it in somewhere and that will make it good against fair decks. But still, doesn't improve any of Nic Fit's crappy match-ups.

[Cabs]

Re: The Gitrog Monster

I appreciate that it is not necessarily a 'legacy' interaction, but the synergy with Gitrog, Life from the Loam and cycling lands (Tranquil Thicket etc) is real.

Dredge Loam, flipping 1 land, draw a card.
Play Loam, returning Wasteland, a fetch and a cycling land.
Play the wasteland and the fetch. Crack both to draw 2 cards. Replace 1 of the draws by dredging Loam, flip a land (?), draw a card.
Cycle the cycling land, draw 2 cards.
Play Loam...

:smile:

[Echelon]

Re: The Gitrog Monster

I appreciate that it is not necessarily a 'legacy' interaction, but the synergy with Gitrog, Life from the Loam and cycling lands (Tranquil Thicket etc) is real.

Dredge Loam, flipping 1 land, draw a card.
Play Loam, returning Wasteland, a fetch and a cycling land.
Play the wasteland and the fetch. Crack both to draw 2 cards. Replace 1 of the draws by dredging Loam, flip a land (?), draw a card.
Cycle the cycling land, draw 2 cards.
Play Loam...

:smile:

Monster + Dakmoor Salvage + discard outlet = mill your library. If that discard outlet is Seismic Assault, that sum equals "you win". Seismic Assault was not my find, by the way.

[Hopo]

People are underestimating the Toad I think (The Gitrog Horror). The card is 5 mana in legacy, I do understand that. However, his effect is just insane. The "whenever a land enters your graveyard from anywhere" text is just fundamentally broken and I think we should explore these options.
1. Dredge. Any time you dredge and hit a land, you trigger this guy. Which lets you replace draws with other dredges. Effectively each draw becomes "dredge each card with Dredge in your graveyard until you don't hit a land." If you don't wanna play him in a dedicated dredge deck there are obvious synergies with Loam and Dakmor Salvage.
2. Specifically, Dakmor Salvage has a ton of synergy with this guy and any effect that lets you discard on command. Seismic Assault, Salvage, and Toad is a loop: you mill yourself 2 to dome them for 2. With Molten Vortex it's the same thing except they cost a R each time. Even a card like Magmatic Insight becomes Ancestral with this dude out.
3. Any lands that naturally bin themselves (Waste and fetchlands) have a lot of synergy. With Loam and two sac-able lands you're effectively drawing 4 extra cards a turn. One from Toad's upkeep trigger, which presumably dredges Loam and hits a land, drawing you a fresh card, then your draw for turn, then draw for each sacrificed land. This is a TON of card advantage. Now, they're likely to be drawing a ton of lands and Loams and not a ton of gas, which brings me to my last point:
4. The most broken interaction this thing has is with the cleanup step. You're filling your hand with Toad triggers and lands picked up off Loams, but what do you really do with that to convert it to material advantage? The toad does this itself. It's not a commonly-known rule, but when something triggers in the cleanup step, both players get priority, the trigger resolves, and then you have another cleanup step, and this repeats until you get a cleanup where no players get priority. With the Toad, his "discarded a land" trigger meets that criteria. So you have 8 cards or more, move to discard, pitch a land. Trigger the toad. Draw a card. Now the next cleanup step, you're still at 8, pitch a land. This means that ending the turn lets you trade every land in your hand for a real spell out of your deck. This ability is pretty absurd if you really think about it. Getting Loam advantage was real enough for some decks to never be able to come back, but ensuring a hand full of 7 actual spells every time you untap is even more ridiculous.

I'm going to be writing an article about the potential this guy has sometime next week, but I just wanted people to be aware of the weird ways this card interacts with the rules. There is a lot of potential here.

It's only fair to assume that everybody understands what the card actually does as there is not a slightest controversy in it's abilities. The question everybody else is wondering is whether a 5 mana legendary frog with such abilities is playable in the format or not.

[joven]

People are underestimating the Toad I think (The Gitrog Horror). The card is 5 mana in legacy, I do understand that. However, his effect is just insane. The "whenever a land enters your graveyard from anywhere" text is just fundamentally broken and I think we should explore these options.
1. Dredge. Any time you dredge and hit a land, you trigger this guy. Which lets you replace draws with other dredges. Effectively each draw becomes "dredge each card with Dredge in your graveyard until you don't hit a land." If you don't wanna play him in a dedicated dredge deck there are obvious synergies with Loam and Dakmor Salvage.
2. Specifically, Dakmor Salvage has a ton of synergy with this guy and any effect that lets you discard on command. Seismic Assault, Salvage, and Toad is a loop: you mill yourself 2 to dome them for 2. With Molten Vortex it's the same thing except they cost a R each time. Even a card like Magmatic Insight becomes Ancestral with this dude out.
3. Any lands that naturally bin themselves (Waste and fetchlands) have a lot of synergy. With Loam and two sac-able lands you're effectively drawing 4 extra cards a turn. One from Toad's upkeep trigger, which presumably dredges Loam and hits a land, drawing you a fresh card, then your draw for turn, then draw for each sacrificed land. This is a TON of card advantage. Now, they're likely to be drawing a ton of lands and Loams and not a ton of gas, which brings me to my last point:
4. The most broken interaction this thing has is with the cleanup step. You're filling your hand with Toad triggers and lands picked up off Loams, but what do you really do with that to convert it to material advantage? The toad does this itself. It's not a commonly-known rule, but when something triggers in the cleanup step, both players get priority, the trigger resolves, and then you have another cleanup step, and this repeats until you get a cleanup where no players get priority. With the Toad, his "discarded a land" trigger meets that criteria. So you have 8 cards or more, move to discard, pitch a land. Trigger the toad. Draw a card. Now the next cleanup step, you're still at 8, pitch a land. This means that ending the turn lets you trade every land in your hand for a real spell out of your deck. This ability is pretty absurd if you really think about it. Getting Loam advantage was real enough for some decks to never be able to come back, but ensuring a hand full of 7 actual spells every time you untap is even more ridiculous.

I'm going to be writing an article about the potential this guy has sometime next week, but I just wanted people to be aware of the weird ways this card interacts with the rules. There is a lot of potential here.

Yes, it has a lot of very strong interactions, but only if it is on the battlefield. How do you want to get it there fast and reliable enough?
Combos with a Dredge card and Seismic Assault or Laboratory Maniac are creature-based 3-card-combos.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12794470_10208563035615385_8482593268549312560_n.jpg?oh=322c499c795698a1e689191ee8d9c837&oe=577AEC2C

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BDK8rAjCMAAvjJr.jpg

[rufus]

Seasons Past
4GG

Return any number of cards with different converted mana costs from your graveyard to your hand. Put seasons past on bottom of its owners library.


Ostensibly, they meant distinct, rather than different. Past in Flames is mostly better, so it's unlikely to do anything in legacy.

That said, how does it interact with split cards?

[thefringthing]

That said, how does it interact with split cards?The answer to this question is virtually always "well".

[rufus]

The answer to this question is virtually always "well".

I'm not sure, I expect that it can retrieve a card like Fire // Ice which has two mana costs that are the same, but it's not clear to me whether it can retrieve Fire // Ice and Manamorphose, or Boom // Bust and Manamorphose.

[TsumiBand]

Effects like this tend to treat split cards as having a cost of "X and Y" so my intuition is that you could get Boom // Bust and a card like Insurrection, but could not get Mana Leak or Upheaval in tandem with Boom // Bust.

[Richard Cheese]

It's only fair to assume that everybody understands what the card actually does as there is not a slightest controversy in it's abilities. The question everybody else is wondering is whether a 5 mana legendary frog with such abilities is playable in the format or not.

Unfortunately it seems to be stuck in that all-too-common limbo between "aggressively costed" and "broken enough to cheat into play". Also it's got that damn "one or more" language making the last ability a bit less attractive. I suppose it would be pretty insane in Dredge without it though.

[Infinitium]

Friends don't let friends play Spiritmonger.

[Kagehisa]

@Seasons Past

There is a way to make a loop with Seasons Past. If you have a tutor in hand or graveyard like Infernal Tutor as the 2 cmc, LED as the 0 cmc, etc.

Make lots of mana, cast Seasons Past, return all your ritual effects (and mana fixers) and tutors, cast them again and tutor for Seasons Past.

It would look like...

0 cmc LED (for green mana?)
1 cmc Dark Ritual
2 cmc Infernal Tutor
3 cmc whatever...

I am not saying it would be good and I haven't found yet a list of cards to make it work.

[Parcher]

Friends don't let friends play Spiritmonger.

Dr. Dan and his genuine replica LoTR swords are en route to you now, blasphemer.

#DirtyTrousers

[Darkenslight]

Potentially Legacy relevant:

Ulvenwald Hydra :4: :g: :g:
Creature - Hydra (MR)
Reach
~'s P/T are equal to the number of lands you control.
ETB, put a land from your library onto the 'field tapped, then shuffle.
*/*

Also, the black Madness X spell:

From Under the Floorboards 3BB
Sorcery (R)
Madness X :b: :b:
Put three 2/2 black Zombies tokens onto the battlefield tapped and you gain 3 life. If ~'s Madness cost was paid, instead put X of those tokens onto the battlefield tapped, and you gain X life.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Potentially Legacy relevant
You really think so? :eyebrow:

[lyracian]

You really think so? :eyebrow:

If only floorboards madness cast was just double black for the three Zombies I might have tried it in Pox. Sadly needing a pile of mana kind of kills it.

[Gheizen64]

Legacy relevant, an absurdly worse Primeval Titan? Really? It's true that PrimeTime is a good card but still. I guess if you really need PrimeTime number 5 you could use it.

[Darkenslight]

You really think so? :eyebrow:


Legacy relevant, an absurdly worse Primeval Titan? Really? It's true that PrimeTime is an absurd card but still. I guess if you really need PrimeTime number 5 you could use it.

Hey, I said potentially. The cost is prohibitive, but it's also a blocker for the Blue Skies of Death contingent.

[MaximumC]

Hey, I said potentially. The cost is prohibitive, but it's also a blocker for the Blue Skies of Death contingent.

Wot

No, we don't play with 3/3s for six in this format.

All the cards spoiled today are pretty boring for Legacy. There's a few that I kind of like for other purposes - Etheral Guidance is amazing at common (?!) for draft or for a casual/Pauper White Weenie deck, Pyre Hound is a cool dude with Super-Prowess for Cube... but nothing fun for legacy.

[iamajellydonut]

Is the full spoiler tomorrow or right before the prerelease? Because it used to be the day of way back when, right? Or is my memory failing?

[Aggro_zombies]

Is the full spoiler tomorrow or right before the prerelease? Because it used to be the day of way back when, right? Or is my memory failing?
Should be tomorrow or Monday at the latest.

[Echelon]

Hey, I said potentially. The cost is prohibitive, but it's also a blocker for the Blue Skies of Death contingent.

So are a lot of other, cheaper things so why bother? I'm sure you can come up with something better than "let's block that 1 mana Delver with a 6 mana guy".

[jrsthethird]

I'm not sure, I expect that it can retrieve a card like Fire // Ice which has two mana costs that are the same, but it's not clear to me whether it can retrieve Fire // Ice and Manamorphose, or Boom // Bust and Manamorphose.


Effects like this tend to treat split cards as having a cost of "X and Y" so my intuition is that you could get Boom // Bust and a card like Insurrection, but could not get Mana Leak or Upheaval in tandem with Boom // Bust.

TsumiBand is correct. Seasons Past does not play well with split cards.

Rule 708.6a of the Comp Rules says:


708.6a Anything that performs a positive comparison (such as asking if a card is red) or a relative comparison (such as asking if a card’s converted mana cost is 3 or less) involving one or more split cards in any zone other than the stack or involving one or more fused split spells gets only one answer. This answer is “yes” if either side of each split card in the comparison would return a “yes” answer if compared individually.

Rule 708.6b says:


Anything that performs a negative comparison (such as asking if cards have different names) involving one or more split cards in any zone other than the stack or involving one or more fused split spells also gets only one answer. This answer is “yes” if performing the analogous positive comparison would return a “no” answer.

So when comparing aspects of split cards, we look at both halves to see if either half matches another card in question.

Asking for cards with different converted mana costs is a negative comparison. To determine if you can choose any two cards to return with Seasons Past, we must use the analogous positive comparison (i.e. do they have the same CMC?) and get a no answer. Because of this, we need to take each split card and compare both sides to the other cards in our pile, and if neither side's CMC matches another card in the pile, we're good. If one side matches another card, it's not a legal combination.

So if our graveyard consists of Fire // Ice, Boom // Bust, Manamorphose, Upheaval, and Insurrection, these are the options we can take (assuming we want to grab every eligible card):

1. Insurrection (8), Upheaval (6), Manamorphose (2)
2. Insurrection (8), Upheaval (6), Fire // Ice (2) & (2)
3. Insurrection (8), Boom // Bust (2) & (6)

The second case is interesting, because on the surface is appears that you cannot return Fire // Ice at all, since both sides have the same cost; but remember, we are comparing the CMC between different cards, but not comparing one half of the split card to the other. It's one single card that has two different ways to return a CMC value of 2.

[Zombie]

Didn't split cards give two answers once upon a time?

[rufus]

Didn't split cards give two answers once upon a time?

They still do for some effects.



708.5. Anything that asks for a particular characteristic of a split card while it’s in a zone other than the
stack gets two answers (one for each of the split card’s two halves). ...



The stuff jrsthethird mentioned only comes into play for comparisons.

[jrsthethird]

They still do for some effects.

The stuff jrsthethird mentioned only comes into play for comparisons.

Yes. Like Dark Confidant. Fire // Ice returns a value of 2 and a value of 2, so you lose 4 life total.

Although, saying "for some effects" is a little misleading. They always return 2 answers, but when you're making a comparison (is it red? CMC 3 or less? etc.), only one side has to match for the card to qualify. Things get fuzzy when the comparison is negative, which we handle by effectively looking at the contrapositive.

[iamajellydonut]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/grafmole.jpg

MOLE

Start specing. Mole tribal.

[Gheizen64]

Full spoiler is up and there are some new nice cards:

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_daXp8bsb5o.png http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_Fc45tUjCwH.png

2G enchantment that delirium into 4/4 trample hexproof? This seems playable somewhere. This is really hard to remove flipped and unflipped.


http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_1T9lEDiYNi.png http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_7AF7mkhc0A.png

The delver callback. I'm not sure how actually flippable this is. In legacy it's sorta hard because all creatures tend to want to either attack or have abilities that tap, so it's harder to play it in a positon where your opponent don't want to attack. Using it on one of your creatures seems subpar too, since StP exile and Decay can decay the enchantment in the first place. It's certainly an interesting design tbh.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_XaNjBsZHgZ.png

A 2R 3/2 haste that flip into a 4/3 . Not sure how actually playable this is, but i'm starting to think it may be possible to an actual blood moon stompy human stompy decks. Name human on cavern, magus of the moon, this, possibly some other things. A 3/2 haste is nothing really special but the 2X mana cost is often easier in legacy compared to XX as it is a stompy card. Haste is also really important for those kind of creatures in stompy lists because of their ability to work as reach and planeswalker removal on topdeck wars, where chalice decks often goes.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_JaZodATIjR.png http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_rZIh834lwH.png

Another potential stompy card, for black. 2B for a creature that flip into removal? While not spectacular, it's an effect said stompy lists often wanted but had difficutly having, and having both removal and win condition in one make the card really valuable in decks with low draw effects and manipulation. The biggest problem i see for this card is the delirium trigger, which may be nigh impossible in stompy lists.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_20pBJyDJZa.png

Recycle in white, or grave removal, plus a 1/1 flier? Wtf. If it were an instant i'd say this was playable. As a sorcery, not so sure, but wow. Such an interesting card.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_pALi18FuRi.png

Lava spike with madness. Why not.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_fFS46deIyh.png

Possible discard enabler plus 3/3 semi-unblockable for 1B? Not too bad. Fuck yourself hidden horror.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_O6fGHGGyOM.png

Hapless researchers, in red, with menace, but a slightly different ability. Will probably see play somewhere.

I was waiting for a new variant of Tormenting Voices or Faithless looting... and they reprinted tormented voices. Seriously, fuck off wotc. That aside, it seems like a really solid set. I've skipped cards we've known already, but i think even if we don't get some new decks, we're gettin some interesting fringe playable cards .

[maharis]

"When there's somethin' strange, in the neighborhood..."

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_3iSdXWC0hf.png

[PirateKing]

MOLE
Start specing. Mole tribal.

Well, Mistform Ultimus plus the 26 Changeling cards, so 28 Moles so far...

[Delvis]

Geistblast is so cool.

However, I've found a card I feel obligated to test in Delver.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/123/13/635944959384098726.png

Does Forked Bolt's best mode (killing two x/1s) much better because it's an Instant, which I think people underestimate. The opportunity cost is that you can't hit players and you can't hit a single creature for 2.

However, I think Sorcery -> Instant is significant enough that it should be tested, at least.

[Bosque]

I could maaaayyybeee see Dual Shot having some use. Not as versatile as Forked Bolt, but it's an instant.

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/dualshot.jpg

[maharis]

The question is, for the decks that sideboard Forked Bolt as supplemental removal, is it solely about wiping out Thalia & friends and elves, or do you want that supplemental card to also kill Deathrite Shaman and Stoneforge Mystic? I tend to think the latter, so I can't see Dual Shot doing much.

Should've been Forked Bolt for creatures only, not hitting players is enough to take a mana off of Twin Bolt imo. It's not like Standard is lousy with x/1s...

[iatee]

I could maaaayyybeee see Dual Shot having some use. Not as versatile as Forked Bolt, but it's an instant.

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/dualshot.jpg

Dual Shot is definitely Modern and Legacy playable, though always as a sideboard card. I can't think of a more sure-thing card I've seen.

[PirateKing]

Skin Invasion seems good in Burn, one mana investment onto a Goblin Guide or Monastery Swiftspear that lets you maintain pressure in the face of blockers. Less good against white, and worst case you wasted :r: on a creature that a) got removed from the game or b) never died and is assumed to have continued attacking until the game was over anyway or c) the spell got countered. And I'm pretty sure Burn would be happy with b & c.

[iatee]

The most powerful thing about Burn is its consistency, and that card would be inconsistent. Despite access to every creature aura in Magic, how many are played in legacy? Rancor every once in a while in Infect. That's all I can think of.

[iamajellydonut]

You know what, now that this set is fully spoiled, I have to say that it's a great fucking set.

Pros:

Cards that don't suck.
Seriously. We may not have gotten ye olde Standard/Limited staples like Terror or Rampant Growth, but the cards don't actively suck, which is a drastic departure from the past four blocks.

Cards aren't pushed.
Unlike Battle for Zendikar where we got good cards but they were pushed as hell (looking at you, Thought-Knot and Smasher), Shadows Over Innistrad really lacks that "buy more packs" oomf and settles for just being an good all-around set. Which is a good thing. I think the most pushed card in the entire set is Thing in the Ice, and people are even skeptical of that.

The art doesn't suck!
Even if it's not all traditional (though I have heard a few people mention there's a lot more traditional than usual), at least the digital art they gave us is something beyond the concept art of the past four or so blocks.

Evil Angels.
p neato

Moles.
yeeeeah boi


Cons:

Jace
... is fucking everywhere. Also, superfriend adventures and Tamiyo being all back of the bus and shit.

Probably Emrakul.
Let's face it. He's gonna rear his ugly head soon, and there's no way he's going to be weaker than his previous variant which was already an unpleasant and unnecessary and unwanted addition to the game. There's no way they're gonna look back and go "we didn't know how well you guys could cheat in that first appearance, so for this take we toned him down a bit." There's no way they can hype up Emrakul and have him come out as a flaccid penne pal. He's gonna come out guns blazing with war paint and maybe a group of orphans as a hood ornament.

Evil Avacyn.
She's just going through a tough time. Her mum took away her cellphone.

[GenghisTom]

You know what, now that this set is fully spoiled, I have to say that it's a great fucking set.

Pros:

Cards that don't suck.
Seriously. We may not have gotten ye olde Standard/Limited staples like Terror or Rampant Growth, but the cards don't actively suck, which is a drastic departure from the past four blocks.

Cards aren't pushed.
Unlike Battle for Zendikar where we got good cards but they were pushed as hell (looking at you, Thought-Knot and Smasher), Shadows Over Innistrad really lacks that "buy more packs" oomf and settles for just being an good all-around set. Which is a good thing. I think the most pushed card in the entire set is Thing in the Ice, and people are even skeptical of that.

The art doesn't suck!
Even if it's not all traditional (though I have heard a few people mention there's a lot more traditional than usual), at least the digital art they gave us is something beyond the concept art of the past four or so blocks.

Evil Angels.
p neato

Moles.
yeeeeah boi


Cons:

Jace
... is fucking everywhere. Also, superfriend adventures and Tamiyo being all back of the bus and shit.

Probably Emrakul.
Let's face it. He's gonna rear his ugly head soon, and there's no way he's going to be weaker than his previous variant which was already an unpleasant and unnecessary and unwanted addition to the game. There's no way they're gonna look back and go "we didn't know how well you guys could cheat in that first appearance, so for this take we toned him down a bit." There's no way they can hype up Emrakul and have him come out as a flaccid penne pal. He's gonna come out guns blazing with war paint with maybe a group of orphans as a hood ornament.

Evil Avacyn.
She's just going through a tough time. Her mum took away her cellphone.


100% agree. Especially on the art. I could easily see some of this art in Odyssey or even before. I think for a new set there is a record number of new cards I'm going to try out in cube.
Not to mention, this set looks like a blast to draft on its own.

[Zombie]

Skin Invasion seems good in Burn, one mana investment onto a Goblin Guide or Monastery Swiftspear that lets you maintain pressure in the face of blockers. Less good against white, and worst case you wasted :r: on a creature that a) got removed from the game or b) never died and is assumed to have continued attacking until the game was over anyway or c) the spell got countered. And I'm pretty sure Burn would be happy with b & c.

You can use it to remove blockers, too. They're forced to attack to let your critters through. Searing Blaze the enchanted creature and you get to bolt them in the head and get a big beater.

[Richard Cheese]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_FzE4qHhuTF.png

Seems pretty alright.

[iamajellydonut]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_FzE4qHhuTF.png

Seems pretty alright.

I was thinking this, too, but the fact that it's not actually a creature itself means you might be waiting a while to take advantage of it unless you had a one drop.

[Octopusman]

The art doesn't suck!


+1

I absolutely love the art and the flavor.
Innistrad is my favorite.
I know Mercadian Masques was a miss supposedly but it kind of reminds me of that which I remember fondly. Pretty funny in that regard.

[Richard Cheese]

I was thinking this, too, but the fact that it's not actually a creature itself means you might be waiting a while to take advantage of it unless you had a one drop.

I feel like it wants to be some weird combo enabler, maybe in Modern. Elves doesn't really care because they're making tons of mana anyway, but we also have a couple really good dudes that make other dudes now...just feels like there should be something there.

[Spam]

Yup, I'm pretty sure Emrakull is in the house...
Meanwhile, Nicol Bolas is still trying to steal Christmas.

Inviato dal mio LG-D605 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Fox]

Remember that time when they fixed Strip Mine [wasteland] and Ancestral [brainstorm]? Guess it was Earthcraft's time for a remake. :tongue:

[iamajellydonut]

Remember that time when they fixed Strip Mine [wasteland] and Ancestral [brainstorm]? Guess it was Earthcraft's time for a remake. :tongue:

Concordant Crossroads and Cryptolith Rite on the battlefield. Cast Squirrel Nest. Make a token. Tap it for mana. ASCEND TO VICTORY.

[Richard Cheese]

Concordant Crossroads and Cryptolith Rite on the battlefield. Cast Squirrel Nest. Make a token. Tap it for mana. ASCEND TO VICTORY.

Whoa, slow down there. This is nearly on the "make a plant, pump the plant" level.

[iamajellydonut]

Whoa, slow down there. This is nearly on the "make a plant, pump the plant" level.

What can I say? I got sick strats.

[Richard Cheese]

What can I say? I got sick strats.

I think we're all in agreement here that this should go straight to Established. No use wasting everyone's time down in N&D.

[Cire]

Has anyone mentioned

Not Forgotten
1W
Sorcery
Put target card in a graveyard on the top or bottom of its owner's library. Put a 1/1 white Spirit creature token with flying onto the battlefield.

I don't think there has ever been a creature like this (and its basically a creature). Compare to Eternal Witness. . . you get the card the turn after, but this comes down a turn sooner. Yes there is bad tempo involved, but since it's cheap that might be fine. It can also be used a graveyard hate.

Also it has flying - and if you're running it in a delver deck, its a creature that running doesn't count against you're Sorcery/Instant numbers.

Honestly, this plus Snapcaster in a blue white SFM deck, constantly returning STP's and counterspells either through flashback or this and draw, sounds decent and annoying.

@ Edit: credit to Gheizen64 for noticing this card first :smile:

[iamajellydonut]

I feel like the only legitimate use would be to repeatedly shove a land on top of your opponent's library when you're both in topdeck mode. Otherwise it's card disadvantage (we're not suggesting a single 1/1 flying token is equal to a full card, are we?) for a marginal amount of filter and a stick. I would 100% of the time rather just have a Regrowth variant.

[Octopusman]

Has anyone mentioned

Not Forgotten
1W
Sorcery
Put target card in a graveyard on the top or bottom of its owner's library. Put a 1/1 white Spirit creature token with flying onto the battlefield.

I don't think there has ever been a creature like this (and its basically a creature). Compare to Eternal Witness. . . you get the card the turn after, but this comes down a turn sooner. Yes there is bad tempo involved, but since it's cheap that might be fine. It can also be used a graveyard hate.

Also it has flying - and if you're running it in a delver deck, its a creature that running doesn't count against you're Sorcery/Instant numbers.

Honestly, this plus Snapcaster in a blue white SFM deck, constantly returning STP's and counterspells either through flashback or this and draw, sounds decent and annoying.

@ Edit: credit to Gheizen64 for noticing this card first :smile:

I like it. Seems like the kind of card that is missed but could be quite good. Also, in that shell you're able to grab the card off the top with Brainstorm.

[firebadmattgood]

It's not necessarily bad tempo if you can use it to fix a hellbent opponent's next draw with something irrelevant. Probably not legacy playable, but you can potentially take your opponent off delirium, give them a dead draw, and make an evasive dude for 2 mana. Seems pretty decent in limited.

[Octopusman]

Damn it, I thought it was an instant. That hurts.

[iamajellydonut]

Damn it, I thought it was an instant. That hurts.

yuuuuup.

Day late, buck short, dad gut, etc.

[Scott]

The art doesn't suck!

I'm partial to the art on this one. Baby'd look good in an old frame.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_fFS46deIyh.png

[Gheizen64]

Yeah that's by far the best art in the set imho. Old border and a classic flavor text instead of the usual edgelord shit would make it a 10/10

I think the card is also fringe playable. Discard outlet plus a good evasive beater? Me likes.

[swoop]

Where's Wild Mongrel?

[TsumiBand]

Where's Wild Mongrel?

Dude srsly, it looks like all the Madness cards and subsequent outlets are in :u::b::r: :(

[joven]

Dude srsly, it looks like all the Madness cards and subsequent outlets are in :u::b::r: :(

Question is if there's a two-drop with at least a bear body that works as repeatable discard outlet?
I guess, no. But Heir of Falkenrath seems crazy good in the Vampire Madness Deck although not repeatable discard outlet.


--

Did you all see the tiny cousin of Tarmogoyf?

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_CW9OBxKwFL.png

[Cire]

It's not necessarily bad tempo if you can use it to fix a hellbent opponent's next draw with something irrelevant. Probably not legacy playable, but you can potentially take your opponent off delirium, give them a dead draw, and make an evasive dude for 2 mana. Seems pretty decent in limited.

Totally, didn't realize you can give your opponent a useless draw.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Totally, didn't realize you can give your opponent a useless draw.

Yah if it would be an instant we would all talk about how versatile and good this card is. But even as instant its powerlvl is like Hallowed Moonlight. Cute but not worth 1w or a cardslot in your 75!

[rufus]

I'm thinking Topplegeist is a potential player.

Invasive Surgery is clearly at least legacy marginal considering it's a better Envelop.

Insolent Neonate is a dredge card - discard then draw for R is going to see play.

Traverse the Ulvenwald has a low floor, but a high ceiling.

[TheArchitect]

I feel like the only legitimate use would be to repeatedly shove a land on top of your opponent's library when you're both in topdeck mode. Otherwise it's card disadvantage (we're not suggesting a single 1/1 flying token is equal to a full card, are we?) for a marginal amount of filter and a stick. I would 100% of the time rather just have a Regrowth variant.

Not that this is actually likely to see play, but it could be used on a terminus or entreat.

[Barook]

I'm thinking Topplegeist is a potential player.

Invasive Surgery is clearly at least legacy marginal considering it's a better Envelop.

Insolent Neonate is a dredge card - discard then draw for R is going to see play.

Traverse the Ulvenwald has a low floor, but a high ceiling.
Can nonblue decks realistically establish Delirium in time? Especially with DRS still being ~1/4 of the meta?

[cartoonist]

Loving Prized Amalgam. Going right in my Modern Dredgevine deck. Ordered my set.

Guess I'll do a scroll down commentary of the spoiler page, just trying to focus on the newest spoilers.

Skin Invasion looks too good to ignore. Mogg Fanatic likes it.

Cathar's Companion's art freaks me out. That is a freakishly large, human-y head on that French Bulldog. Never want to open that.

Devilthorn Fox art seriously reminds me of Wile E. Coyote.

Stern Constable - Discard outlet in a Master Decoy? Huh. That's different for white.

Essence Flux - Blink in blue isn't bad. Snapcaster might enjoy it.

Forgotten Creation - I just...I just wish your casting cost was cheaper. I really do.

Jace, Jace, Jace, Jace, Jace...

Pieces of the Puzzle - Plays nicely with Delver.

Behold the Beyond - EDH fodder

Murderous Compulsion - almost there, buddy, but not quite

Love Pale Rider of Trostad. There's going to be a use for him, just not sure where.

Dual Shot - alter idea: Mick Foley as Cactus Jack doing his "Bang! Bang!" fingers

Geistblast - interesting idea. The Izzet would've loved this one. Also, obligatory "Don't cross the streams!" joke blah blah.

Malevolent Whispers - Is that dude getting a boner? Yes, he is.

Moldgraf Scavenger - notaGoyfit'satrap notaGoyfit'satrap notaGoyfit'satrap notaGoyfit'satrap

Second Harvest - HOW was this NOT in the last Ravnica block?

Wilt-Field Scarcrow - EDH It's another Burnished Heart.

Basics - Yeah, they've got that weird clue rock formation thing, but I'm really hoping they're just petrified traditional slivers about to awaken.

[rufus]

Can nonblue decks realistically establish Delirium in time? Especially with DRS still being ~1/4 of the meta?

I think so. Fetchland, Baubles, Thoughtseize-type discard, GSZ, low cost removal and anything that gets countered fill the graveyard.

[iamajellydonut]

I think that people are going to have a much more difficult time enabling Delirium than they may initially believe.

[jrsthethird]

I think so. Fetchland, Baubles, Thoughtseize-type discard, GSZ, low cost removal and anything that gets countered fill the graveyard.

GSZ doesn't fill the graveyard if it resolves.

[rufus]

GSZ doesn't fill the graveyard if it resolves.

Yeah. Even so, there are a lot of low cc spells that people play in the early turns. We'll see how things work out.

[joven]

Dumb question:
Are the DFCs in any way more or less rare compared to the respective normal commons/uncommons/rares/mythics considering they're (usually) in their own slot (one per booster, every eighth booster two, but foils in foil slot)? Or does WotC really manage to keep it the same? How was it last time? Who knows details?

Also:
What are the implications that the set is so extra large and has 18 mythics?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yeah. Even so, there are a lot of low cc spells that people play in the early turns. We'll see how things work out.

Delirium seems hard! You have to play cards you wouldn't normally play(baubles). Average goyf is 4/5 and he counts both gy. Also there is no good delirium card so yah not worth it.

[(nameless one)]

If Drekavac has never seen play in Modern and Legacy, Pale Rider won't see play. Evasion is nice but there are a set's worth of cards that cost 3 or less that has evasion that don't see play.