Shadows over Innistrad

[joven]

If Drekavac has never seen play in Modern and Legacy, Pale Rider won't see play. Evasion is nice but there are a set's worth of cards that cost 3 or less that has evasion that don't see play.

I agree. Also, Skulk on a 3/3 is only half-evasion.
Where is it relevant that you can discard any card? Loam?
But it is basically strictly better than Drekavac, isn't it? EDIT: You can even play it with nothing else in hand!

[MaximumC]

This set is great. Good, useful cards spread out over multiple rarities, without many obviously pushed designs and a lot of cheap, subtle effects. It's a set full of useful effects; a box of parts, so to speak. I suspect we'll see the payoff -- the engines that run these cogs -- in the next set.


REVIEWED TONS OF CARDS


Hey me too

Altered Ego Boy, poor ol' Clone is looking worse and worse every day, huh? Now it's uncounterable and gets bigger if you've got mana to spare. Instant EDH and Cube staple, bumping any other 4cc Clone except maybe the Khans clone that can be any kind of permanent.

Autumnal Gloom Seems like a really sweet card, if only for casual decks. 2G for a recurring mill effect in Golgari is boring but has uses, and a 4/4 hexproof is always nice.

Briarbridge Patrol This is worth having... just in case. It cheats creatures into play, and that's not an effect to take lightly. It is awfully specific about the setup, so it's not doing anything in Eternal, but it has an abuse-able effect, so... Modern is weird.

Dauntless Cathar / Nearhearth Chaplain Tokens from the graveyard. The rate is worse than Lingering Souls, but if you're going for a self-mill strategy, this kind of effect is good.

Dual Shot This plays "Timewalk you" against Elves all day long. Worse than Forked Bolt, but Forked Bolt is an all-star, so...

Ember-Eye Wolf Oh look they reprinted Fireball on a Stick. 1 mana = 1 power on a hasty dude. This card is good.

Geistblast Early game, blow up a dork + late game, pay 2U to win a counter war? Yes, please.

Gryff's Boon Did you ever want to enchant your opponent's creatures with a recurring enchantment? Well, if you ever do, this is pretty sweet.

Indulgent Aristocrat The ability to put +1/+1 counters on EVERY Vampire makes me stop and look at this one more closely. Seems nutty when paired with the Vampire lord that lets you steal dudes or with token generators (such as Call the Bloodline?).

Insolent Neonate Sometimes a 1/1, sometimes it gives another card cycling for R. This is a cog for a combo engine or all-in deck of some kind.

Kindly Stranger | Demon-Possessed Witch In the midgame, you need your Hurloon Minotaur to also kill things. Its not Shriekmaw, but it's not bad at all.

Loam Dryad This card is a trap. It reminds you of Heritage Druid and of Springleaf Drum, and they're good, so this must be goo-- NO. This card has summoning sickness, which none of the above have. It's not even an Elf or any other useful creature type. This is just a crappy mana dork that doesn't work sometimes.

Moldgraf Scavenger Baby Tarmagoyf is great for pauper.

Not Forgotten My vote for number 1 sleeper of this set so far with a preorder price of a quarter or less. I can easily see this being a dollar or two down the road. If it was a 1/1 flier for 1W with an enter-the-battlefield ability it would be better due to recursion, but even as printed it's really good.

Ongoing Investigation Subtly quite powerful. Each time a dork hits a player, you get to pay 2 to draw a card. If not, you can usually pay 4 to draw a card. In other words, it's a Jadmeaye Tome that costs half price to cast and occasionally half price to activate. Now, Tome hasn't been playable in forever, but I don't know if the ability to draw a card without conditions has ever been this cheap. Compare to Treasure Trove, Dimir Guildmage, etc.

Open the Armory My vote for number 2 sleeper of this set. Tutor effects are very powerful, and we don't usually get them at 2 mana. More expensive than Steelshaper's Gift, but less expensive than Heliod's Pilgrim, both of which saw play. Remember, all it takes for a tutor to explode in price is for a combo deck to come along that makes it relevant.

Pyre Hound It's not Managorger Hydra, but it's in better colors to have a Super-Prowess ability. I like this for Cube immensely.

Rattlechains Spirit tribal. That's all.

Sanitarium Skeleton Costs more to get back than Squee, but also can act as a 1/1 speedbump in the early game. Seems very useful!

Skin Invasion | Skin Shedder If you're going to kill someone's creature anyway, this is a 3/4 for 1. Without the "attacks every turn" clause, I wouldn't like it. As it is, it both makes its target more likely to die AND rewards you for killing it. This seems really useful.

Stitched Mangler I like Kor Hookmaster and cards like it. Detain is a good mechanic for blue and white.

Stitchwing Skaab It doesn't take much work for this to be a 3/x flier for 1U in a graveyard-based deck. That might not be enough on its own, but since it's also a Zombie, I'm sold.

Town Gossipmonger | Incited Rabble A 2/3 for W that can't attack on the first turn after it is no longer summoning sick is how I see this. I'm still in. Why? Because your investment in this guy ends up still just being W. Turn 1, Gossiper. Turn 2, some dork. Wait till opponent's end step, tap both to make your 2/3. Sure, you missed out on attacking on turn 2, but you've got a decent board presence without any further investment of mana. That's a good thing for a tempo deck to be doing, and it ends up being kind of a worse version of Delver. (No evasion, less power).

Warped Landscape Wait, you mean my Terramorphic Expanse can come in and tap for mana immediately if I need it to do that? THATS AWESO-- oh wait this is usually just a bad version of the Panoramas, isnt it? Well, yeah, but the Panoramas actually are not that bad at all, and they don't exist in wedge colors yet. Okay!

[rufus]

... sleeper ...

Merciless Resolve seems like a really strong card for a common. There's a lot of value to be had if you can cast it in response to removal.

I wonder whether we'll see some kind of 'madness tempo' deck with Alms of the Vein and Fiery Temper.

Zombie tribal got a lot of stuff with Prized Amalgam, Relentless Dead and Diregraf Colossus. Maybe even Compelling Deterrence, Shamble Back and From under the Floorboards

[ThomasDowd]

How many times has your/ "the" Tarmogoyf been 4/5?

That's delirium.

In my experience he is often a 3/4, in DRS land.

edit: that's being generous

[joven]

How many times has your/ "the" Tarmogoyf been 4/5?

That's delirium.

In my experience he is often a 3/4, in DRS land.

And Goyf looks a both graveyards, Delirium just at your own and your opponent will try to keep you away from Delirium. Also, there is stuff like Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void and Relic of Progenitus.
And cantrips alone doesn't help that much as it does for Threshold. Fetchlands and Wastelands help if they're not eaten by DRS.
Also, there's Delve.

[joven]

Well, from what I've seen/heard/read/thought so far for Legacy:

Invasive Surgery - strictly better than Envelop although the upside isn't that easy to get
Thing in the Ice - could shake up formats .. or not, hopefully not, I'd guess it's too slow especially the second one after the first one was removed
Anguished Unmaking - instant Vindicate for nonland permanents for the price of 3 life
Drownyard Temple - a land that returns from graveyard to battlefield for the price of :3: is a new tool
Not Forgotten - white Sorcery-speed Reclaim with 1/1 flying Spirit token attached, alternatively give opponent a bad draw or get rid of a card in a graveyard
Dual Shot - instant Forked Bolt but less flexible
Insolent Neonate - somebody said this could be used in combo decks
Prized Amalgam - somebody said this could be used in dredge decks
Altered Ego - clone variant for GSZ, probably too expensive
Skin Invasion - interesting design, could be a 3/4 for R if you have non-exiling removal or a big blocker
Heir of Falkenrath - could do a neat Delver impression in black if you can handle the discard
Asylum Visitor - could be strong, but will probably end up like most other Hellbent-carddrawers (Blood Scrivener)
Autumnal Gloom - neat, but probably too expensive and too hard to transform, also 4/4 trample hexproof is not that good in Goyf's world
Cryptolith Rite - can this Earthcraft variant be broken?
Alms of the Vein - this could be strong if there were a Madness deck
Open the Armory - there's SFM and Steelshaper's Gift, but if somebody really needs to fetch auras

not on my list:
Traverse the Ulvenwald - not reliable enough to have Delirium enabled and the floor is very low
The Gitrog Monster - very strong interactions especially with the Dredge mechanic, but too expensive for Legacy
Moldgraf Scavenger - Tarmogoyf's little cousin is probably not good enough

Overall not that exciting except for TitI. Of course there's a lot more for other formats ... and several things for flavor and artwork junkies. But I still don't like the story.

[BenBleiweiss]

We've been discussing this for Modern, and the answer is "it's very easy to ensure turn 2 Delirium, without causing many other issues to your deck, if that's what your deck wants to do".

Unfortunately I think a lot of the cards that you want to play with a Delirium strategy are more Modern-Playable than Legacy Playable (Thought Scour, Faithless Looting).

Still, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume you're going to be able to bin a land on the first turn reliably (be it a Fetch or Wasteland), so getting the other three card types into your graveyard is the harder part.

Will note that Gitaxian Probe gets you a Sorcery (2 life cost, no mana/card cost), and Street Wraith gets you a creature (2 life cost, no card/mana cost). Again - not necessarily advocating playing this strategy. Just pointing out that if you really want to ensure turn 1 or 2 Delirium, you can reliably do so within the confines of Legacy without costing yourself full draws.

[iamajellydonut]

Oh, I don't think anyone's disputed that delirium is easy to enable if you try, but incorporating it naturally is fairly difficult. Any deck that starts with 4xStreet Wraith, 4xGitaxian Probe, 4 Thought Scour, 4xManamorphose, and 4xMishra's Bauble is basically begging to be a pile of shit.

[Finn]

Compared to prowess (and tarmo, titi, young pyromancer, and Delver), the benefits to the blue shell for the delirium cards seems very muted.

I would argue that the 4/5 black demon could possibly be worth the effort if the mill part is useful in the deck beyond just establishing delirium. Beyond that, they seem to have dialed back this mechanic.

[Cire]

Oh, I don't think anyone's disputed that delirium is easy to enable if you try, but incorporating it naturally is fairly difficult. Any deck that starts with 4xStreet Wraith, 4xGitaxian Probe, 4 Thought Scour, 4xManamorphose, and 4xMishra's Bauble is basically begging to be a pile of shit.

If only this was a card:

R
Instant
Deal 1 damage to target player or creature
Delirium - deal 3 damage instead.

Then it may have gone into that FFF deck Finn was working on.

[rufus]

If only this was a card:

R
Instant
Deal 1 damage to target player or creature
Delirium - deal 3 damage instead.

Then it may have gone into that FFF deck Finn was working on.

Gibbering Fiend comes close. Thing is FFF is too fast to use that card and fiend costs too much.

[BenBleiweiss]

Oh, I don't think anyone's disputed that delirium is easy to enable if you try, but incorporating it naturally is fairly difficult. Any deck that starts with 4xStreet Wraith, 4xGitaxian Probe, 4 Thought Scour, 4xManamorphose, and 4xMishra's Bauble is basically begging to be a pile of shit.

I'm not sure that you even need to go that overboard - I'm thinking more of a Landstill or Threshold-style deck, that incorporates Traverse the Ulvenwald, Autumnal Gloom, and Invasive Surgery. I also don't know how something like Stitchwing Skaab would play in a deck like that - but it stays in-color for that deck.

[AngryTroll]

I actually really like Autumnal Gloom (although I realize it's not an great Legacy card). It would be miles better if it was the beginning of ANY end step, instead of just your end step, but it appeals to my brewing side. A 4/4 trample shroud for 2G is pretty good in a grindy deck like Shardless or Jund.

The direct comparison is Thrun, the Last Troll. I think uncounterability and regeneration (for doing battle with Batterskull) makes Thrun better, but I'd be tempted to equate the G discount in Autumnal Gloom (which makes it easier to cast) to the Troll's uncounterability (which makes it easier to successfully cast). I'm not sure which is more commonly relevant, trample or the regeneration-I'd call that a tossup.

The Delirium trigger means the Gloom is a 4/4 for 3 only late in the game, though, and not on turn 3. Although it does clear the top of your deck for Sylvan Library, grow Tarmogoyfs when it dies, and feed your graveyard for Deathrite Shaman and Grim Lavamancer....Back to the bad Jund brews!


Edit: Or Nimble Mongoose. Drat. Mongoose is much better when cast without the graveyard support, much cheaper, and three-quarters of the size when the graveyard fills up. +1/+1 and trample for an extra two mana is probably not worth it.

[iamajellydonut]

I'm not sure that you even need to go that overboard - I'm thinking more of a Landstill or Threshold-style deck, that incorporates Traverse the Ulvenwald, Autumnal Gloom, and Invasive Surgery. I also don't know how something like Stitchwing Skaab would play in a deck like that - but it stays in-color for that deck.

So, Dungrove Elder, a sideboard card, and one decent card that wouldn't do much other than provide consistency to a deck that has deliberately compromised consistency? Hot damn that might just be tier 1.

[rufus]

....

Edit: Or Nimble Mongoose. Drat. Mongoose is much better when cast without the graveyard support, much cheaper, and three-quarters of the size when the graveyard fills up. +1/+1 and trample for an extra two mana is probably not worth it.

Yeah, that's a general issue with the delirium cards in legacy: most of them are just plain unplayable even if you have delirium. For example, why would anyone play Mindwrack Demon over Tombstalker?

That leaves three or four delirium cards which have any plausible legacy potential at all.

[joven]

[...] For example, why would anyone play Mindwrack Demon over Tombstalker?


What's with Abyssal Persecutor? Is he that hard to get rid of after opponents life is below 1?

[Gheizen64]

After extensive testing, Nahiri is actually legit.

The problem is that there's not a single good deck where she fit in with those colors and mana cost. But she's one of the better 4-cmc walkers there are. Being a 3 turn clock while filtering your draw or removing 2 annoying permanents with 1 card is up there as much as good PWs go.

[tescrin]

After extensive testing, Nahiri is actually legit.

The problem is that there's not a single good deck where she fit in with those colors and mana cost. But she's one of the better 4-cmc walkers there are. Being a 3 turn clock while filtering your draw or removing 2 annoying permanents with 1 card is up there as much as good PWs go.

I think you can probably just use her to Hero of Bladehold with Haste. I realize it's not quite as brutal here because it may not be a guaranteed 1-hit KO, but you did just ult a walker so you're just trying to finish the game. Getting tokens and a dude and swinging for 7 seems good enough maybe.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Or inferno titan for 12

[tescrin]

Or inferno titan for 12

I guess. But then why not just run Blightsteel or Emrakul? My point was that a 4-drop is actually castable in Legacy. I do think Emmy/Blight make sense because they shuffle back in off of her +2, but I mean as a castable/usable 4-drop Hero could be a consideration. Inferno, IMO, is roughly as impossible as the others.

[Amon Amarth]

After extensive testing, Nahiri is actually legit.

The problem is that there's not a single good deck where she fit in with those colors and mana cost. But she's one of the better 4-cmc walkers there are. Being a 3 turn clock while filtering your draw or removing 2 annoying permanents with 1 card is up there as much as good PWs go.

You could probably play her in Imperial Painter. All 3 of her abilities are great there.

[Gheizen64]

I think i've found the deck for her. Go little aggressive (taxing) guys, and play her as curve topper work best imho. That way your singleton emrakul (that get shuffled in the library as you discard it to nahiri) always get there after your minions do the initial damage.

Probably gonna post the deck in the development part after some more testing.

[Barook]

Go little aggressive (taxing) guys
Are you suggesting it as curve topper in Imperial Taxes? :really:

Discarding Emrakul to it sounds like a nifty way to get rid of it for a more useful card, but what if you don't draw Nahiri and you're stuck with it in your hand? You would need Nahiri in higher quantities (probably 4x copies) to make that plan reliably work (you can discard excess copies to herself) if you don't run Brainstorm.

[rufus]

...

Discarding Emrakul to it sounds like a nifty way to get rid of it for a more useful card, but what if you don't draw Nahiri and you're stuck with it in your hand? You would need Nahiri in higher quantities (probably 4x copies) to make that plan reliably work (you can discard excess copies to herself) if you don't run Brainstorm.

I imagine that various looting cards like Faithless Looting will work well in a deck with Nahiri.

[Gheizen64]

Are you suggesting it as curve topper in Imperial Taxes? :really:

Discarding Emrakul to it sounds like a nifty way to get rid of it for a more useful card, but what if you don't draw Nahiri and you're stuck with it in your hand? You would need Nahiri in higher quantities (probably 4x copies) to make that plan reliably work (you can discard excess copies to herself) if you don't run Brainstorm.

You absolutely run 4 nahiri yeah, the card at worst is removal (pseudo-vindicate) that demand an attack phase . At best she a 3 turns clock that filter your draws during it
The decklist for now it's an hybrid between imperial taxes and 8 Moon decks, with 4 CotV and 4 simians to maximize T 1 thalia, c h alice or a Moon effect. I'm still having some issues with the threat density and the equipments + sfm package, with the mana package being a bit larger than classic imperial lists.

[Barook]

You absolutely run 4 nahiri yeah, the card at worst is removal (pseudo-vindicate) that demand an attack phase . At best she a 3 turns clock that filter your draws during it
The decklist for now it's an hybrid between imperial taxes and 8 Moon decks, with 4 CotV and 4 simians to maximize T 1 thalia, c h alice or a Moon effect. I'm still having some issues with the threat density and the equipments + sfm package, with the mana package being a bit larger than classic imperial lists.
Could you post a list in the development forum? I've been screwing around a R/W Moon Hatebear Chalice list due to the amount of Shardless and Lands in the MTGO meta, but it wasn't that great.

Thalia plus a 4 mana PW sounds like a nonbo, though.

[Gheizen64]

Could you post a list in the development forum? I've been screwing around a R/W Moon Hatebear Chalice list due to the amount of Shardless and Lands in the MTGO meta, but it wasn't that great.

Thalia plus a 4 mana PW sounds like a nonbo, though.

EDIT: made a topic with a bit more detail. I'm a bit drained from today and my testing was seriously frustrating with the mana issues. I hope i've landed in a better spot right now.

[ahg113]

Having had a hiatus from the game for a bit, in drabs here and there I check-in to see how Legacy is doing.

Shadows actually looks fun, from a flavor and expansion level (love Prized Amalgam). I mistakingly dismissed Nahiri at first, because, Plateau never gets anything worthwhile. But you guys have proven that wrong. She looks like a bomb, and I'd love to shoe-horn her into Team Italia, but that seems silly. Emmy and Bob don't seem like sand-lot buddies. But she seems the perfect capper to the mana-curve in that deck. Mish-mash of Elspeth, K-E, or Sorin, LoI used currently.

It'd be nice if there was a reasonable creature like Akroma, but pushed to today's standards.

[Scott]

Frog monster makes its first Legacy appearance, as a 1-of in a 20th place Maverick list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100792

[GreatWhale]

Frog monster makes its first Legacy appearance, as a 1-of in a 20th place Maverick list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100792

There was a Thing in the Ice in the 13th placing U/R Delver deck. Both of them looks more like fun-ofs, just dipping their toe in the pool of play-ability, I'd like to hear about when the games they showed up in.

[easysantiago]

There was a Thing in the Ice in the 13th placing U/R Delver deck. Both of them looks more like fun-ofs, just dipping their toe in the pool of play-ability, I'd like to hear about when the games they showed up in.

Agreed.

It's nice when a new card breaks into Legacy, especially as a fun-of. It shows that Legacy isn't totally static. Nevertheless, the potential for new cards is as follows: either the card alters or warps the format (is strictly better than a previous solution and becomes a MB staple, possibly across multiple decks), functions as new SB tech, or has a short tenure enabling a fringe win condition.

[MaximumC]

Agreed.

It's nice when a new card breaks into Legacy, especially as a fun-of. It shows that Legacy isn't totally static. Nevertheless, the potential for new cards is as follows: either the card alters or warps the format (is strictly better than a previous solution and becomes a MB staple, possibly across multiple decks), functions as new SB tech, or has a short tenure enabling a fringe win condition.

It's not an either-or scenario. It's possible for a card to be playable and improve an existing deck or make a new one without totally warping the format.

[sjmcc13]

It's not an either-or scenario. It's possible for a card to be playable and improve an existing deck or make a new one without totally warping the format.

It is just allot harder if it is not warping the format. Players tend to be hesitant to try new decks/cards unless they are proven to be beneficial, and it is allot harder to prove a non-broken cards is beneficial then a broken card that warps games around it.

you need players to get the top 8 placings, and many players will not touch anything that is not top 8ing regularly, which makes getting the players hard for decks that are not broken or format twisting, since they take time to build a player base if they can at all. This is one of the reasons why individual matchup analysis is so important (and possibly why wizards seems to not like it to be available) because that is the only way to really see how decks play out against the decks you are likely to face, and metagame accordingly.

[easysantiago]

Agreed.

It's nice when a new card breaks into Legacy, especially as a fun-of. It shows that Legacy isn't totally static. Nevertheless, the potential for new cards is as follows: either the card alters or warps the format (is strictly better than a previous solution and becomes a MB staple, possibly across multiple decks), functions as new SB tech, or has a short tenure enabling a fringe win condition.


It's not an either-or scenario. It's possible for a card to be playable and improve an existing deck or make a new one without totally warping the format.

Agreed! A new card can alter the format without warping it. On the one hand, the format is altered when a new card is significant enough to sideboard against. On the other hand, the format is warped when everyone is splashing X to play said new card. In yet another scenario, a new card can enter the format without changing the format outside of the one or two decks that use the card (i.e. SB tech that replaces a previous solution while still functioning the same way).

[Dice_Box]

Frog monster makes its first Legacy appearance, as a 1-of in a 20th place Maverick list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100792

Our local Aggro Loam player went ham with it tonight. I think the Froggy is going to be around for a while. Not a common sight, but not unseen.

[MaximumC]

Our local Aggro Loam player went ham with it tonight. I think the Froggy is going to be around for a while. Not a common sight, but not unseen.

Did you get a hold of his decklist?

[Dice_Box]

Not directly, but it's a heavily updated version of this one here. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26118_Loam-Is-Where-The-Heart-Is.html

[Rocco111]

For TiTi, looking back at the time it took for Youg Pyromancer to be considered as a viable strategy option in Legacy, I would not be surprised if this card only becomes a real thing in a couple of month as well. Time for people to tinker with it, for a couple of pros to demonstrate its potential under the cameras... and it might become the next gold rush for all the netdeckers out there. :laugh:

[Lemnear]

For TiTi, looking back at the time it took for Youg Pyromancer to be considered as a viable strategy option in Legacy, I would not be surprised if this card only becomes a real thing in a couple of month as well. Time for people to tinker with it, for a couple of pros to demonstrate its potential under the cameras... and it might become the next gold rush for all the netdeckers out there. :laugh:

Drawing parallels here is ridiculous. TITI is much closer to Quirion Dryad than Young Pyromancer and we know the primer is plain bad as it needs some serious card/mana investment to turn into a threat (like TITI) and still gets handled via spot-removal, while Pyromancer is pure card-/permanent-advantage with the first instant/sorcery cast after dropping it. Good luck trading favorable against Pyromancer with Jace or Plows.

[morgan_coke]

I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been more discussion of Brain in a Jar. In a lot of ways it reminds of Aether Vial for spells. Counters go up, casts sorcery speed things at instant speed, generates TONS of mana, fixes colors. I get that you don't get uncounterability, and it costs 2 mana to cast, and 1 to use, but that's still really, really good. Also, you can reset the counters on it, unlike with Vial. Dropping a Supreme Verdict during someone's attack phase, or a time walk type effect during their end step, or a sorcery speed draw spell for only one mana during their EOT, is just really, really good. Then again, it took a good long while for people to figure out how good vial was, so maybe this will be similar? Or maybe the 1 mana to activate kills it. But I kinda lean towards not, since even casting a 1 cmc spell is a break even proposition.

[MaximumC]

I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been more discussion of Brain in a Jar. In a lot of ways it reminds of Aether Vial for spells. Counters go up, casts sorcery speed things at instant speed, generates TONS of mana, fixes colors. I get that you don't get uncounterability, and it costs 2 mana to cast, and 1 to use, but that's still really, really good. Also, you can reset the counters on it, unlike with Vial. Dropping a Supreme Verdict during someone's attack phase, or a time walk type effect during their end step, or a sorcery speed draw spell for only one mana during their EOT, is just really, really good. Then again, it took a good long while for people to figure out how good vial was, so maybe this will be similar? Or maybe the 1 mana to activate kills it. But I kinda lean towards not, since even casting a 1 cmc spell is a break even proposition.

I wholeheartedly agree. Still, I don't know if it gets there unless it fuels a broken win condition.

POSTIIVES

Brain in a Jar does a ton:

1. It doesn't cost you mana to activate. That is, when you activate it, you're always at least breaking even on the activation cost because you're casting a spell with that cost. Once you cast it, you just play your game as normal but you use the Jar if you want to cast a spell that happens to line up with the counter situation.

2. It actually GENERATES mana the third time you activate it. (Because you save 1 mana on the 2cc spell, and 2 mana on the 3cc spell).

3. It fixes mana color (as you mentioned). Even allows you to fix colored into colorless if you really need to cast Eldrazi Charm!

4. At any given time, your Sorceries with a casting cost 1 more than the counters on the Jar have Flash.

5. It combos hard with Fuse cards. (You get to cast both halves if you match either one).

6. It is a non-useless mana sink. By the late game, you can use it to scry a bit here and there.

NEGATIVES

However, there are two downsides to this card that make it worse than Aether Vial:

1. It is a tempo loss. The 2 mana you spend initially is huge.

2. It "dies to removal" particularly if you run it out early like you would Vial. In other words: you can blow tempo casting this 2cc spell and then have it removed by something cheaper, maybe even during your end step, for no value.

[rufus]

I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been more discussion of Brain in a Jar. In a lot of ways it reminds of Aether Vial for spells. ..

Well, how do you feel about the relative power levels of Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top?

[Finn]

It's hard to just like Brain in a Jar because of what it does. Aether Vial is not excellent because of what it does. It is excellent because it does it so well. Ever tried Mercadian Lift?

[Octopusman]

I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been more discussion of Brain in a Jar. In a lot of ways it reminds of Aether Vial for spells. Counters go up, casts sorcery speed things at instant speed, generates TONS of mana, fixes colors. I get that you don't get uncounterability, and it costs 2 mana to cast, and 1 to use, but that's still really, really good. Also, you can reset the counters on it, unlike with Vial. Dropping a Supreme Verdict during someone's attack phase, or a time walk type effect during their end step, or a sorcery speed draw spell for only one mana during their EOT, is just really, really good. Then again, it took a good long while for people to figure out how good vial was, so maybe this will be similar? Or maybe the 1 mana to activate kills it. But I kinda lean towards not, since even casting a 1 cmc spell is a break even proposition.

Completed my playset after reading your post.

I'm thinking about brain in a jar in some landstill type of control deck.

Regarding having it removed for a tempo loss, probably better they use up their removal on that vs. something threatening, right?

[MaximumC]

I agree that Brain has an awful lot of proving to do, and it's not as good as Aether Vial. However:


Well, how do you feel about the relative power levels of Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top?

An artifact could do waaaay worse than be compared to Scroll Rack. That's an awesome $25 Magic card. http://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Tempest/Scroll+Rack#paper


It's hard to just like Brain in a Jar because of what it does. Aether Vial is not excellent because of what it does. It is excellent because it does it so well. Ever tried Mercadian Lift?

Well, Brain's not anywhere near as bad as Lift. Brain grows without unwanted shrinkage, like Vial, can be tapped for an effect immediately, and does not cost you mana to activate (functionally).

I agree that the existence of this card would make Brain useless:

Aether Brain
1
During your upkeep, you can put a charge counter on Aether Brain.
T: You may play an Instant or Sorcery from your hand with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Aether Brain without paying its mana cost.

But that card does not exist, soooo...

[morgan_coke]

Just realized that if you could get this to go off without any counters on it, you could use it to cast any of the suspend spells, like Ancestral Vision, Living End, Hypergenesis, or the Balance one.

Would Clockspinning or Hexmage work on that though? I mean, when you tap it, the counter goes on, but is there a "stack" period, like with Vial, or are the number of counters checked when the artifact is tapped? Anyone good enough at rules details to know the answer on that one?

EDIT: Agreed Aether Brain would be way better, but I'm pretty sure they know a straight vial for spells is broken.

[Nonex]

The counter and the casting are all part of the ability's resolution, it's impossible to do anything in between. The only way to cast a 0cc spell is to have a replacement effect from another source saying "If a counter would be placed on a permanent you control, instead X", or something like "X can't have counters placed on it".

[PirateKing]

4/8/2016 When resolving the first ability of Brain in a Jar, the newly-placed charge counter will be counted when determining what spells you may cast. No player may take any action between you placing the counter and choosing which spell to cast.
4/8/2016 If Brain in a Jar leaves the battlefield before its first ability resolves, use the number of counters on it at the moment it left to determine what spell you may cast. That number won’t change because you can’t put a new counter on Brain in a Jar.

Based on the second ruling, If you were to pay :1: and put the ability on the stack, maintain priority and cast Abrupt Decay, the "moment it left" it will have zero counters. So it's possible to cast any of the rare Suspend cards if you have a way of getting it off the battlefield in response to the ability.

[MaximumC]

The counter and the casting are all part of the ability's resolution, it's impossible to do anything in between. The only way to cast a 0cc spell is to have a replacement effect from another source saying "If a counter would be placed on a permanent you control, instead X", or something like "X can't have counters placed on it".

This is true, but anything that stops counters from being put on Brain during the resolution of the ability will allow you to go off for 0. This could involve destroying it before the ability resolves, as PirateKing suggests, or some other effect that stops the counter from getting placed.

Now, the only way to do that in Magic at the moment would be the following (or something like it) involving instant-speed clones:

1. Have a Tatterkite or Melira's Keepers, an Artisan of Forms, and a Brain in a Jar in play.
2. Cast Animate Artifact on Brain in a Jar.
3. Target Artisan with a spell and have it become a copy of Brain in a Jar.
4. Activate Artisan-Brain's ability.
5. Target Artisan with another spell and have it become a copy of Tatterkite/Keepers./
6. The ability resolves and can't put a counter on Artisan.
7. PROFIT

[PirateKing]

lol well I mean, yeah, you could do all that. really, any flicker effect will do well if you're not into removal. Goblin Welder or something.

[morgan_coke]

Maybe it's got a lot of value in something like a Lantern Control shell, that's a deck that could benefit very tremendously and asymmetrically from a "balance" effect, and could also easily and profitably run some self-sacrifice-for-a-benefit artifacts or effects. Same with some stax type variants. Then again, maybe not, probably worth at least looking at if you're into those kind of decks.

[rufus]

...

An artifact could do waaaay worse than be compared to Scroll Rack. That's an awesome $25 Magic card. http://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Tempest/Scroll+Rack#paper

...

I don't think that Brain in a Jar is ipso facto a bad card. I just don't think it's good enough for legacy. (I also think it's much weaker than Scroll Rack, but let's not digress too much.)

"Netting Mana" off the brain in a jar is really a bad proposition. You spend 3 and a card to cast a 1 cc spell, 4 and a card to cast 1&2 cc spells, and 5 and a card to cast 1&2&3 cc spells. You could just play Lotus Petal or Simian Spirit Guide.

Breaking split spells off the brain is a bit more intriguing. Firing off a fused Beck // Call or Development for 4 mana and 2 cards isn't terrible. It's also not great, and quite fragile - the same trick that enables the suspend rares means that you can get clipped with an uncastable spell in hand - not a literal 2 for 1, but close.

Casting cc-less spells is cute, but the other cc-less enabler -- cascade -- really doesn't like it, the suspend rares aren't great in-hand, and you're talking about 3-card "combos" that don't win the game.

There's also looking for an edge with quicken, but the spells that make that work are generally bad on their own too.

[lyracian]

A quick look over this weekends SCG Classic Columbus results shows
Invasive Surgery - 1st Place Grixis Delver Sideboard
Tireless Tracker - 14th Place Lands Sideboard

[Barook]

Nahiri is a terrifying card. Saw it on Joe Lossett stream and also just experienced it first-hand vs a Miracles build. Being able to win two turns after dropping it is very strong.

[Deadinthestreet]

Nahiri is a terrifying card. Saw it on Joe Lossett stream and also just experienced it first-hand vs a Miracles build. Being able to win two turns after dropping it is very strong.


Link to that deck list?

[MaximumC]

I don't doubt it. Of the recent Walkers, both Narset and Nahiri (and Ajani Vengent, really) are really, really powerful -- at least on the level of the original Elspeth -- but have not really found a place to shine yet. I'm happy to see them both finally proving themselves.

[Barook]

I don't doubt it. Of the recent Walkers, both Narset and Nahiri (and Ajani Vengent, really) are really, really powerful -- at least on the level of the original Elspeth -- but have not really found a place to shine yet. I'm happy to see them both finally proving themselves.
My only regret is that I didn't pull the trigger earlier and bought even more copies of Nahiri. Still sitting on 30 copies on MTGO while waiting to reap the rewards. :tongue:

She's the real deal and the Emrakul kill might be legit enough to see more play in various decks, not just Miracles. I do wonder into which else decks she could go. Painter has already been called. Maybe Aggro Loam since she synergizes extremely well Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam while being on-color? T3 Nahiri via Mox is a T5 kill if left undisrupted.

Or maybe Sneak & Breach with a white splash for Nahiri? She's another enabler for a fatty and she filters useless cards.

[rufus]

...
She's the real deal and the Emrakul kill might be legit enough to see more play in various decks, not just Miracles. I do wonder into which else decks she could go. Painter has already been called. Maybe Aggro Loam since she synergizes extremely well Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam while being on-color? T3 Nahiri via Mox is a T5 kill if left undisrupted...

RW Parfait?

[Parcher]

RW Parfait?

Rifter.

[Arsenal]

Not really a true Legacy player yet outside of some Miracles sb application, but Nahiri, the Harbinger has made major waves in Modern in Jeskai and Mardu shells. Nahiri is essentially a one-card combo that is hard to disrupt once resolved. Was at like $13, now up to $35 and climbing.

[Barook]

Not really a true Legacy player yet outside of some Miracles sb application, but Nahiri, the Harbinger has made major waves in Modern in Jeskai and Mardu shells. Nahiri is essentially a one-card combo that is hard to disrupt once resolved. Was at like $13, now up to $35 and climbing.
She functions a bit differently than the common walkers as she's much worse at protecting herself due to her more conditional kill ability. Thus, she needs a bit more protection. But she also wins the game much faster once she's left on her own.

Haven't heard anything about Mardu shells in Modern, but she sees play in KikiChord.

[MGB]

Wow. And I was disappointed when I cracked Nahiri in my FNM pity pack for going 1-1 drop because it wasn't an Archangel Avacyn.

[Di]

Haven't heard anything about Mardu shells in Modern, but she sees play in KikiChord.

The entire deck is just composed of Nahiri + Liliana, removal spells in PtE and burn, discard spells, and Lingering Souls for value. Maybe a couple draw spells like Wall of Omens or Painful Truths. That said, it does a fantastic job protecting Nahiri. It seems better at doing so than Jeskai, but is far more reliant on ulting Nahiri in the first place.

[Arsenal]

The entire deck is just composed of Nahiri + Liliana, removal spells in PtE and burn, discard spells, and Lingering Souls for value. Maybe a couple draw spells like Wall of Omens or Painful Truths. That said, it does a fantastic job protecting Nahiri. It seems better at doing so than Jeskai, but is far more reliant on ulting Nahiri in the first place.

This. Mardu traditionally lacked a finisher that the other grindy midrange decks had, namely Goyf. Nahiri definitely allows Mardu to close games that it normally wouldn't have been able to. It is very much a real deck that people should be aware of in Modern.

[Finn]

Interesting wording on the +2. You have to have a card or she just kinda sits there - unless you want to -2. If it is like a Slow and Tell, how bad is it to even use the -2? Better than just losing, I suppose.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, if hellbent, her +2 doesn't do anything besides build loyalty. I do like that it's a "may" for the times that I'm holding a few cards, but all of them are absolute haymakers I don't want to part with.

[Ephemeron]

She's the real deal and the Emrakul kill might be legit enough to see more play in various decks, not just Miracles. I do wonder into which else decks she could go. Painter has already been called. Maybe Aggro Loam since she synergizes extremely well Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam while being on-color? T3 Nahiri via Mox is a T5 kill if left undisrupted.


Seems super awkward in Loam. Accidentally loaming into an Emrakul and turning your KotR into a 2/2 pud or breaking up the wasteland lock/cycling land thing they do seems bad.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Accidentally loaming into an Emrakul and turning your KotR into a 2/2 pud or breaking up the wasteland lock/cycling land thing they do seems bad.
Swap Emrakul for Blightsteel Colossus? Not saying it's good, just that it solves that issue.

[mgrinshpon]

Seems super awkward in Loam. Accidentally loaming into an Emrakul and turning your KotR into a 2/2 pud or breaking up the wasteland lock/cycling land thing they do seems bad.


Swap Emrakul for Blightsteel Colossus? Not saying it's good, just that it solves that issue.

Dark Confidant becomes a much more exciting proposition with 4, 11, and 15 CMC cards lurking in the library. I suspect that Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage is a more on-plan "oops, I win" combination than Nahiri with Dark Confidant, Loam, and Knight in the deck.

Zombardment, though, now that seems like a place to put in a discard outlet.