Mark Rosewater thinks Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern builders?

[Begle1]

From Rosewater's Tumblr blog:


barooky asked:
Wouldn't Modern regulate itself much better if it had more powerful police cards like Legacy does?


Response: The thing that helps Legacy is not “police cards”. It’s that we don’t shine a major spotlight on it and get some of the best deck builders in the world to try to break it once a year.

I feel slightly insulted as a Legacy fan, and incredulous regarding the sort of logic employed here. I guess it's insightful, they feel once they drop format support nobody really tries any more...

[Sloshthedark]

I'd ask Mark Rosewater how many legacy matches has he played or even seen last year... I'm glad that absence of spotlight means Wotc doesn't try to break it once a year...

[CorwinB]

I think it's not so much a matter of individual deck builders talent that a matter of sheer manpower. For each PT, you get those large teams comprised of the game's best players (many of whom are also excellent Legacy/Vintage players) who gather for weeks in order to try to break the format (which happened at the last PT). Preparing for a Legacy GP (the biggest Legacy events left, I think) can not bring the same amount of dedicated people together.

Not having a Legacy PT also means that WotC won't play fast and loose with the Ban List like they do with Modern in order to "shake the format". As Patrick Chapin (IIRC) once said, "If there was a Legacy PT, Brainstorm would have been banned already.".

Where I don't agree with Maro is that the "police cards" (I suppose FoW, Wasteland, Stifle, StP, Flusterstorm, DRS... plus good cantrips/tutors to find them) play a big role into making it much less likely that some deck will all of a sudden appear from nowhere and trust 75% of the Top 8 of a major Legacy tournament like the travesty that was PT OGW. Without powerful universal answers, Modern games can often end in "Did I find room in my sideboard for this specific matchup ? Did I draw my SB hate ?". In Legacy, even if someone (or a team) finds a new nutty combo that can kill T1 or T2 very often, he's likely to get thrown of his plan by FoW at least a couple times over the tournament (see Belcher).

Because of the lack of good universal answers in Modern, the DCI had to ban some hilarious stuff (Blazing Shoal anyone ?) as well as any cantrip more powerful than Serum Visions so that combos don't get assembled too easily (since disrupting combos is so unreliable).

Since WotC seem to insist on making spells even more expensive and more specialized with each expansion (and the only way to get new cards for Modern is through the Standard pool), my guess is that they will be forced to ban more and more clunky stuff in Modern over the years because of unforeseen interactions.

[Lemnear]

The way I interpret the said is that MaRo considers Legacy "underdeveloped" because it's no PT format and therefore Pros don't invest much time to develop decks.

Edit: this pretty much implies that he denies the existance of broken strategies and the need for "Police cards", which makes me wonder if he has any freaking idea about what's going on in the format

[Varal]

There's a big difference between 2000 people going to a tournament mostly to have fun and the 400 best players going to a tournament to "work" and earn money. You don't see teams of 10 players testing relentlessly for a month before a Legacy GP. This means the decks in average will be less focused, there will be a lot of noise in the results since the "best" decks will play less often against each other and it's going to be harder to determine what is the best deck. The average opposition makes less optimal play muddling the importance of the deck to win. The more a player can leverage his playing skills, the less his decklist has importance; the player and not the deck will win the match.

I'm not sure the format could be as broken as it was in Modern but the metagame could be clearly more defined than is right now. It could be argued that the format is already broken with decks following either a Brainstorm shell, a Wasteland shell or both.

[Barook]

His answer kinda ignores that quite a few of the pros that play the PT also play Legacy at times, e.g. Tom Ross or Reid Duke.

Right now, the only decks that are really underdeveloped for Legacy imho are the new Eldrazi lists. Everything else has been pretty much static over the years with minor changes.

[Stevestamopz]

I wouldn't take it personally, everyone already knows that Legacy is the superior format but can't get into it due to pricing issues or whatever.

WOTC employees on the other hand have to talk shit on it otherwise they won't be lead designers of Modern Masters 301347.

[DLifshitz]

Edit: this pretty much implies that he denies the existance of broken strategies and the need for "Police cards"

To be fair, he can't be seen to criticize Modern, or the lack of the kind of "police cards" that are the linchpin of Legacy in recent card design. At least he sort of admits that as of today, Modern is, in fact, broken.

[Zombie]

The way I interpret the said is that MaRo considers Legacy "underdeveloped" because it's no PT format and therefore Pros don't invest much time to develop decks.

Edit: this pretty much implies that he denies the existance of broken strategies and the need for "Police cards", which makes me wonder if he has any freaking idea about what's going on in the format

I don't even know if it's about the format. It's like, competitive game development 101. If you add power, you add failsafes, and things will likely work out. You neglect failsafes but have a high power level, things will likely go to shit. Too much defensive options for aggression, and things turn into a complicated muck fest that can be dull, but will entertain a small handful of people.

[Barook]

https://twitter.com/Barook1985/status/698996608550178816

I've put up the discussion on Twitter. Let's see if some Pros actually bite.

[Mr.C]

I think he's right. If we had all the major pros actively trying to break the format, we'd see a lot of unconventional (and possibly broken) strategies pop up.

[Quasim0ff]

I don't think so. If you play some random combo deck, chances are it's either super soft to efter delver decks or miracles or storm.

I don't think there's infinite possibility out there to break the format, like MaRo apparently thinks, but then again, he wanted a modern shake-up so he banned a turn 4 combo deck for "format diversity".

[twndomn]

Regardless if the pros have the ability to break a format or not, the Legacy format itself has shown again and again, it is resilient enough to stabilize. People were freaking out when True Name was released; now..., not so much. I am willing to say that Wizards will have to swing the ban hammer on Modern for Eldrazi, and Legacy will once again, absorb Eldrazi like everything else that has been printed. This has nothing to do with the creativity of PT/GP competitors, bad format is just bad format, don't shift the blame onto the players, take it as it is, Maro. he is giving way too much credit to the PT competitors. That's like giving the GP competitors the middle finger.

[Quasim0ff]

I do agree that we would see much better decklists of the top decks in Legacy, if it was a pro tour format.

Having someone like, say, Sam Black (incredible deckbuilder) or Brad Nelson (who are exceptionally good at tuning decks for a metagame) trying to "solve" a metagame does make for some serious propelling forwards wrt. decks.

However, there's a huge difference from a PT where you know there will be a slight bias towards certain decks (from the top teams, I might add), it's an entirely different beast than say, GPs where you might meet needless playing something like Enchantressstorm.

[Barook]

I do agree that we would see much better decklists of the top decks in Legacy, if it was a pro tour format.

Having someone like, say, Sam Black (incredible deckbuilder) or Brad Nelson (who are exceptionally good at tuning decks for a metagame) trying to "solve" a metagame does make for some serious propelling forwards wrt. decks.

However, there's a huge difference from a PT where you know there will be a slight bias towards certain decks (from the top teams, I might add), it's an entirely different beast than say, GPs where you might meet needless playing something like Enchantressstorm.
What about the yearly SCG Championship? I don't see anyone breaking the format anywhere. The best we get is inbred shit like D&T with multiple Spirit of the Labyrinths because you can expect everybody else to be on Brainstorm.

Can anybody see the innovation and format breaking? Because I don't. (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/legacy_decklists_group_play.html)

[Quasim0ff]

What about the yearly SCG Championship? I don't see anyone breaking the format anywhere. The best we get is inbred shit like D&T with multiple Spirit of the Labyrinths because you can expect everybody else to be on Brainstorm.

Can anybody see the innovation and format breaking? Because I don't. (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/legacy_decklists_group_play.html)

I'm arguing that the format won't be broken, but we would see much more lean decklists. NOT new decks.

[Dice_Box]

The Speed it took U/R Delver to be discovered and break the format, then following that Omnishow leads me to think he is a little bit... um... Wrong.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I think he's right. If we had all the major pros actively trying to break the format, we'd see a lot of unconventional (and possibly broken) strategies pop up.

I doubt it, Legacy is largely pretty devoid of new things you could be doing, maybe there are some old forgotten strategies that could be rebuilt to be better, but the most powerful things you can be doing have been found.

Even with modern, it wasn't like pros were actively breaking the format over and over again ever year, they tend to take old ideas, explore and refine them further but rarely did we see them outright break or redefine the format (that I am aware of anyways)

[apple713]

Legacy is a format that has been solved. It can only be broken on the release of new cards. Thus every three-four months when new cards are released the legacy community analyzes the new set for the 1-2 cards that might see some play in legacy. On the rare occasion that a card is good enough to see play it's likely to be found quickly because for something to be good enough to be played in legacy it would be clearly a great card.

I am certain that no matter what great minds he thinks legacy is missing, the format would not change at all with the addition of more great minds. Legacy has a very high standard for cards to meet before they are ver considered for a slot in a deck. A new creature would more likely fit into an already existing deck than demand to have a deck built around it. A new combo piece is extremely unlikely to see play because of the incredibly high bar that Show and tell and ANT set. On the control front, it is highly unlikely there will ever really be a control deck that comes close to the power level of miracles. Miracles has gotten to the point where people have discussed ban's on SDT because of it.

So F you rosewater for being ignorant and having such great control over a game you clearly know so little about.

[iatee]

Modern is only more unsolved than legacy right now because:
- They just printed a bunch of busted cards for the format.
- They regularly ban key cards.

If you banned Brainstorm or Top and had a legacy Pro Tour the next week, I think things would be pretty interesting, and I don't think anyone here could reasonably predict the T8. The modern tour a year ago didn't have crazy new brews in the t8 despite the Pod banning, and this one only did because they suddenly let people play 8 Ancient Tombs in a format with no Wasteland.

[jrsthethird]

Why are a bunch of Sourcers trying to break WOTC comments here? We've already solved how they feel about Legacy; just more of the same old shit.

[Lemnear]

Brad Nelson (who are exceptionally good at tuning decks for a metagame) trying to "solve" a metagame does make for some serious propelling forwards wrt. decks.

Really? The man who argued ON CAMERA that Vengevine/SotF should be banned because "it always kills turn 3" while "I" have NEVER seen the deck "killing" turn 3 at all, is your pick here? Brad Nelson knows shit about Legacy and Displays it in his Interviews and few Legacy appearances, but is arrogant enought to not turn down questions on other formats because of his lack of experience there, but keeps commenting of formats he does not or not regulary play. He sure gets along well with MaRo due to that.

[Echelon]

Why are a bunch of Sourcers trying to break WOTC comments here? We've already solved how they feel about Legacy; just more of the same old shit.

Seconded! We should strive to emulate the honey badger when it comes to such drivel.

[lordofthepit]

If there were a Legacy Pro Tour, the metagame might shake up a little more, but it is simply idiotic to suggest that the absence of police cards in Modern hasn't led to degenerate combo decks and non-interactive games than would be present in Legacy.

[phonics]

I wrote up a bunch of stuff but honestly what is the point, this is the same guy who has pretty much established that he has no clue what he is doing. The idea that pros could come together and magically come up with an archetype that is 80%+ against the rest of the ENTIRE legacy format is just beyond silly.

[Hopo]

This is once again why legacy feels like a kitchen table format. People here actively deny the skills and insights of multi-format pros by ducking behind the "BUT THEY DO OTHER THINGS AS WELL BESIDES PLAY LEGACY THEY KNOW SHIT!!" -wall.

Rosewater quite clearly refers to legacy not being a PT format. We all know it means that there is no such effort put into the format as into real PT formats. You can pretend that playing stuff like Veteran Explorer or Polymorph makes you special but we all know it's not true. The thing is that any deck can take down a tournament now and then regardless of the decks goodness in a vacuum. No random junk deck can take down a pro tour (disclaimer: well it might but it's rather unlikely).

Maybe there's not so much room to move and innovate but just take a look at BBD's New Jersey Jeskai or the japanese GP miracle lists. That's the kind of stuff you can expect from pros brewing. Now imagine what lists would look like if the same players and teams used half of the year in brewing the format. Every GP shows flashes of this stuff that legacy enthusiasts just don't end up with. Saito splashes the correct color to merfolk or something like that.

The opening questions is fucked up beyond all. The correct thing to say is that "Legacy builders aren't as talented as pro players."

Just play the game to your best with healthy pride without whining. Don't start slinging shit when someone points out that pros are pros for a reason.

[Dice_Box]

Pro players are welcome to come and build something that beats Miracles, DnT and Ant in the same day any time they like, but until that happens "Legacy builders aren't as talented as pro players" sounds like bullshit to me. They may not be as skilled playing a deck, but I have seen none of the players on those teams with a Legacy deck to their name.

[Cartesian]

Police cards? I like it. Legacy sure has some of those.

[Vicar in a tutu]

If there was a legacy Pro Tour, 35% of the pros would play Miracles, 25% would play a Delver variant, 20% would play ANT / Storm and 20% would play "other" (mostly Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Sneak & Show and Elves.). That would be my prediction. I don't think anyone would "break" the format, but we would maybe see a few fringe / unusual cards being played here and there.

[Hopo]

I have seen none of the players on those teams with a Legacy deck to their name.

Might have something to do with never putting any serious effort into this format. Because it's not a PT format. Being an earning pro is somewhat hard work, I guess. No time to waste on irrelevant formats even though many pros have expressed that they like legacy.

EDIT: and of course there is the anecdotal Tom Ross :)

[Lemnear]

This is once again why legacy feels like a kitchen table format. People here actively deny the skills and insights of multi-format pros by ducking behind the "BUT THEY DO OTHER THINGS AS WELL BESIDES PLAY LEGACY THEY KNOW SHIT!!" -wall.

Rosewater quite clearly refers to legacy not being a PT format. We all know it means that there is no such effort put into the format as into real PT formats. You can pretend that playing stuff like Veteran Explorer or Polymorph makes you special but we all know it's not true. The thing is that any deck can take down a tournament now and then regardless of the decks goodness in a vacuum. No random junk deck can take down a pro tour (disclaimer: well it might but it's rather unlikely).

Maybe there's not so much room to move and innovate but just take a look at BBD's New Jersey Jeskai or the japanese GP miracle lists. That's the kind of stuff you can expect from pros brewing. Now imagine what lists would look like if the same players and teams used half of the year in brewing the format. Every GP shows flashes of this stuff that legacy enthusiasts just don't end up with. Saito splashes the correct color to merfolk or something like that.

The opening questions is fucked up beyond all. The correct thing to say is that "Legacy builders aren't as talented as pro players."

Just play the game to your best with healthy pride without whining. Don't start slinging shit when someone points out that pros are pros for a reason.

Itsn't this argument turning to bullshit if you take a look at the average result these Pros have if the decide to play Legacy or in terms of which decks they pick?

[lordofthepit]

The Pro Tour might pay much more than your FNM, but the paltry prize support still isn't not enough for talented people to justify devoting a lot of time to it. A hypothetical Legacy PT might help stretch the boundaries on the metagame ever so slightly, but it wouldn't completely shake Legacy up the way it would a fundamentally imbalanced format like Modern.

[Dice_Box]

Might have something to do with never putting any serious effort into this format. Because it's not a PT format. Being an earning pro is somewhat hard work, I guess. No time to waste on irrelevant formats even though many pros have expressed that they like legacy.

EDIT: and of course there is the anecdotal Tom Ross :)
Would you argue that a Legacy pro Tour would not just be Miracles, Ant and Delver from the pros? Really? Also Tom Ross is a good player with his deck of choice, but so is Bryant Cook with his. Thats not really a wave you can ride all the way to the shore on. There are people who are Masters of a single deck. Rest of the news at 5.

I would be happy to have some other deck pop up in Legacy and you know what, it does. Bob Huang meet on Cockatrice the person who build the U/R Delver Cruise deck that took over late 14 early 15. That shows that a builder and a good player can go far. It also shows the reach of ideas, the power of the net and how someone whos name few people know can really shape this format.

People build, more than one time the format has been solved (twice in the last 14 months) and then a card was banned from it. Neither time did a pro do that. Neither time was a Promotional Tour needed to get the minds together and show the format new ideas. Fuck we have a site for that right here. Hell the Legend Rule changes and within a month we have a whole new Lands deck build to take advantage. This is a format full of those who can adapt and build. If you think we need pros to solve this format your putting too much stock in some glorified promotional tools.

[Hopo]

Itsn't this argument turning to bullshit if you take a look at the average result these Pros have if the decide to play Legacy or in terms of which decks they pick?

I'm just saying that if pros ever had any incentive to play and brew legacy the way they do other formats, they would most likely make some sort of an impact. Now I believe that never in history have pros paid any serious attention to legacy. And that I guess was MaRo's point.

Of course if legacy would turn into a PT format overnight, they would start from existing decks. Afterall, there are lots and lots of years that legacy has existed without pros touching it and naturally many decks are already tried and developed. It just sounds like people don't believe that these decks would have been found by the pros as well if they ever tried in any way serious.

The top legacy decks don't really deviate too much from established decks that exist in all formats. LED is legal? It doesn't take Cook to think that storm might be a thing. Delver and Pyromancer are legal? Let's try those together. Oh, Top and miracles have synergy? Who would have thought?

[Dice_Box]

The top legacy decks don't really deviate too much from established decks that exist in all formats. LED is legal? It doesn't take Cook to think that storm might be a thing. Delver and Pyromancer are legal? Let's try those together. Oh, Top and miracles have synergy? Who would have thought?
You are either totally misunderstanding or intentionally avoiding what I am saying. I do not know which, I do not really care either.

Synergy seems obvious later, but Pyromancer was an untouched card for over a year iirc. It takes bright minds to build in our format and we have them. Pros might have something to add, but not a ton. Also the deck that broke Modern did so thanks to new printings. Legacy the same thing happened without the Pros. I think I am happy to leave that comment stand as all the evidence I personally need to say we do just fine as we are.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Reid Duke came up with NO RUG back in the day, several pros built sick decks during the Mental Misstep era (Gerry Thompson for example). There were a few of those when there weren't as many Grand Prix as there are now and pros had nothing better to do than playing Legacy Opens.
It's also worth noting that right now, the players on the SCG circuit are not as good as players on the Pro Tour; there's a reason they're not playing in those. Interestingly, a few months back someone asked (on twitter, I think) what the biggest difference between SCG and PT players was. Pros' consensus was "consistently terrible deck choices".

PT Legacy vs. GP/SCG Legacy is also not about any individual players breaking formats, it's about 10+ player teams dissecting formats and coming up with crazy solutions. That just doesn't happen right now. If someone had both the resources and incentives to break Legacy, they would. No doubt about it.

[Hopo]

You are either totally misunderstanding or intentionally avoiding what I am saying. I do not know which, I do not really care either.

Synergy seems obvious later, but Pyromancer was an untouched card for over a year iirc. It takes bright minds to build in our format and we have them. Pros might have something to add, but not a ton. Also the deck that broke Modern did so thanks to new printings. Legacy the same thing happened without the Pros. I think I am happy to leave that comment stand as all the evidence I personally need to say we do just fine as we are.

Maybe you feel like that because I wasn't even replying to you.

My stance is purely hypothetical since like I said, pros never paid any serious attention to legacy. No one knows what the format would look like if it was a PT format from the beginning but you sure seem to be 100% certain that pros would have done only some light splash here and there. I really can't understand that kind of thinking since it's based on absolutely nothing.

[Hopo]

Reid Duke came up with NO RUG back in the day, several pros built sick decks during the Mental Misstep era (Gerry Thompson for example). There were a few of those when there weren't as many Grand Prix as there are now and pros had nothing better to do than playing Legacy Opens.
It's also worth noting that right now, the players on the SCG circuit are not as good as players on the Pro Tour; there's a reason they're not playing in those. Interestingly, a few months back someone asked (on twitter, I think) what the biggest difference between SCG and PT players was. Pros' consensus was "consistently terrible deck choices".

PT Legacy vs. GP/SCG Legacy is also not about any individual players breaking formats, it's about 10+ player teams dissecting formats and coming up with crazy solutions. That just doesn't happen right now. If someone had both the resources and incentives to break Legacy, they would. No doubt about it.

This is my point communicated a lot better than I could. I don't think people have quite understood what it means that pros prepare for a constructed PT.

[Quasim0ff]

Really? The man who argued ON CAMERA that Vengevine/SotF should be banned because "it always kills turn 3" while "I" have NEVER seen the deck "killing" turn 3 at all, is your pick here? Brad Nelson knows shit about Legacy and Displays it in his Interviews and few Legacy appearances, but is arrogant enought to not turn down questions on other formats because of his lack of experience there, but keeps commenting of formats he does not or not regulary play. He sure gets along well with MaRo due to that.

You clearly misunderstood my point. I'm saying that, due to legacy being a "casual" format doesn't warrant the experts focus, compared to Modern and Standard.
I'm not saying he can do this now, as he clearly isn't familiar with the format.

[sco0ter]

The Speed it took U/R Delver to be discovered and break the format, then following that Omnishow leads me to think he is a little bit... um... Wrong.

There are also examples where Legacy players took some time to discover cards / interactions / new decks:

Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy (NicFit): Old interaction, which got only popular in the recent years.
Glimpse of Nature / Natural Order: strong cards, which were undiscovered long time.
Mangara / Karakas -> DnT
Chalice Stompy Decks: afaik, it took some time until people developed the Tomb/City/Chalice core, although it seems obvious.
Manabond / 43 Lands: now that was an innovation nobody tried before.
Cloudpost/Glimmerpost: I think it was dismissed long for being too slow for Legacy.
Sneak Attack: it used to be a cute casual card
Goblin Bombardment: same
Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void combo: long time undiscovered afaik.

[Slag]

There are also examples where Legacy players took some time to discover cards / interactions / new decks:

Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy (NicFit): Old interaction, which got only popular in the recent years.
Glimpse of Nature / Natural Order: strong cards, which were undiscovered long time.
Mangara / Karakas -> DnT
Chalice Stompy Decks: afaik, it took some time until people developed the Tomb/City/Chalice core, although it seems obvious.
Manabond / 43 Lands: now that was an innovation nobody tried before.
Cloudpost/Glimmerpost: I think it was dismissed long for being too slow for Legacy.
Sneak Attack: it used to be a cute casual card
Goblin Bombardment: same
Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void combo: long time undiscovered afaik.

I wouldn't say that those interactions were overlooked in quite the way that you are suggesting they are; most of the interactions came into prominence because of the printing of relevent cards:
-vet/therapy was probably the most legitimate example, although without green sun's zenith to add redundancy, NicFit wouldn't have been a deck. One could also argue that using veteran explorer in a time that most people were playing either goblins or solidarity would have been a terrible idea.
-glimpse of nature became usable the second Nettle Sentinel was printed (granted, the elves combo deck took off in extended before legacy). NO came on the radar when Progenitus was printed, and then became a format staple when Craterhoof was printed
-A D&T deck was posted almost immediately after managara was printed (although it looked very different from today, Hokori, Dust drinker, tee hee). That's more an example of players taking time to recognize the deck was a contender.
-ancient tomb stompy decks predate the legacy format, existing back in Type 1.5. The stompy builds totally reliant on chalice came a year or two later, around 2005.
-I suppose that you could say Lands could have been built before it was, but the first lands deck was created in ~2007
-cloudpost, like many of the other examples, gained traction with the printing of a new relevant card, glimmerpost
-sneak attack was a casual card because the best thing you could sneak in was a symbiotic wurm. If emrakul and Griselbrand had existed, Sneak attack would always have been the format defining card.
-Bloodghast and lingering souls made bombardment barely usable
-Don't quote me, but I want to say that Helm had an errata that made the combo work. Regardless Helm/leyline was never a format-driving combo.

[Stevestamopz]

If it was so easy for Pros to break the format then they would. We're talking about Magic Pros here, their income is severely limited to playing Magic, and it's not like the payout of winning a Pro Tour or Grand Prixs is anything close to winning a WSOP event. There aren't even enough events for them to play in monthly hence the bullshit articles they have to write.

With SCG having almost weekly Legacy 5k's up until recently, and with the tournaments being filled with barely functioning dickheads like myself who play Goblins unironically, don't you think Pros would have jumped all over it? If a top level pro makes 30k a year on average (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-life-of-a-pro-player/), -which is far less then what I imagine most people on the Source make- there would be a huge incentive for them to "break" Legacy.

I could be wrong, but my assumption is that they never did so, because they couldn't.

[colo]

You clearly misunderstood my point. I'm saying that, due to legacy being a "casual" format doesn't warrant the experts focus, compared to Modern and Standard.
I'm not saying he can do this now, as he clearly isn't familiar with the format.

I don't think that a handful of "pro teams" trying to "solve" Legacy would make any significant difference in what the format would look like whatsoever.

The computational complexity of a MtG format - and thereby, the effort to evaluate all potentially promising synergies and card combinations - is bounded by the number of distinct, tournament-legal cards in that format's pool. Now, for Legacy, that pool is MUCH larger than for all the lesser formats like Modern and Standard, where "pro teams" are trying to and apparently are able to arrive at local maxima (i. e. the "best deck(s)" that "solve" a format). And a format's complexity does not simply grow linearly with the number of available cards. Having any number of "pro teams" trying to chew through that data/computation independently wouldn't necessarily (or even likely) make them arrive at anything that's stronger than any of the established, highly tweaked lists of Legacy-legal decks that we have today.

[nevilshute]

I think it reeks of vanity sifting through some of the replies here. Like hurt pride. I think it's also a bit much to jump to conclusions based on a one-sentence answer on a blog.

Can you deny that if Legacy did get put under the spotlight that things might not change? Are you really that dead certain that the Legacy format is solved? It took more than six months from Griselbrand's printing for someone to put him, Shallow Grave and Children of Korlis together in the same deck and perform with it. That means that for at least six months both Children of Korlis and Shallow Grave were lingering in obscurity. Cards and interactions that were there for all to see weren't noticed right away.

Someone else mentioned that it took Young Pyromancer a long time to really take off in Legacy which is another example.

I'm not saying that there are hundreds of undiscovered fantastic synergies out there waiting to get broken, but to say that it wouldn't make a difference if professional magic players had to play a Legacy Protour each year feels preposterous.

That doesn't mean that MaRo isn't wrong about his playing down the "police cards" angle.

But yeah, I can't help but notice the hurt pride here.

[Mr Miagi]

Amen Slag! Wanted to make a post like yours but you saved me the time. Scooter had things a bit out of perspeciteve and you put it there.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Sure; there's a community of hundreds (maybe thousands) of players that play Legacy on a daily basis and are bound to the format and really active and share the ideas and play the decks for years and wutnot. This community is not able to make real progress in a format and we need a miraculous person of immense planeswalking power, one that's making a 30k per year, to break the format build around Brainstorm, LED, Tarmogoyf, and Delver.
That's some pretty funny blah blah blah.
Also, this gave me a bitter smile:


My career winnings are roughly $280,000, over a period of about 9 years, which is about $30,000 a year, minus taxes and traveling expenses. Some years I made way more and some years I made way less, but I don’t spend all the money I make in a year, so working with the average is better. Most of that money comes from Pro Tours and appearance fees.
So lets take it from the top to bottom:


My career winnings are roughly $280,000
So is it 271 or 289? Kinda matters...


which is about $30,000 a year, minus taxes and traveling expenses.
I'd love to know the taxes and expenses. I doubt that his round-the-earth trips cost the same as my 20 minutes by car.


Some years I made way more and some years I made way less
Do you have a family?


Most of that money comes from Pro Tours and appearance fees.
I nearly vomit.

[CabalTherapy]

I don't think it's worth discussing stuff that Mark Rosewater said about Legacy at all. Maro and Legacy...

[sco0ter]

I wouldn't say that those interactions were overlooked in quite the way that you are suggesting they are; most of the interactions came into prominence because of the printing of relevent cards:


Yes, you are right mostly. Nonetheless from my gut feeling, I think for some cards/strategies, Legacy took some time to reveal them. I think many people didn't even dare to try some of these cards/strategies, but just dismiss them as unplayable and focus on well-known established decks.

E.g. when I first played Therapy/Explorer online I got flamed with "I want to play Legacy, not some casual crap"...
Discussion threads about Elves, Merfolk and Reanimator (targeting Legacy) were moved to the Casual forum (not this one), (after Lorwyn block, but granted, before Entomb unban).

At least it used to be so. It's much better/open these days.

[Quasim0ff]

I don't think it's worth discussing stuff that Mark Rosewater said about Legacy at all. Maro and Legacy...

Luckily there's quite an easy way for you to avoid doing so.

[Patrunkenphat7]

...
Maybe there's not so much room to move and innovate but just take a look at BBD's New Jersey Jeskai or the japanese GP miracle lists. That's the kind of stuff you can expect from pros brewing.
...

BBD isn't even a pro right now to my knowledge. He qualified for one of the Pro Tours last year by winning a Legacy Grand Prix and has played in a few but is not even currently on the Pro Tour. He grinded SCG Legacy events for a couple years and loved the format. If you had to pick either "Legacy player" or "stereotypical pro" for BBD, I think "Legacy player" would be more fitting.

Comments like MaRo's show the elitist attitude in "professional" Magic that is very unappealing. Pro Magic attracts individuals who are willing to make somewhere between $20k-35k per year and likely do not have full-time family obligations. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but just logically it is silly to think that the geniuses in the game are the full-time players who grind GPs and test for 40+ hours per week for 2 weeks before each PT while us regular Legacy folk are unable to match their deckbuilding prowess because of their superior Magic IQ. Several of my friends and I have played on the PT thanks to Legacy GPs, and in this last one my friend Phil went 8-2 in the Modern portion and finished 26th overall with very limited testing while the pros came to together in groups of 20 or more and worked 40 or more hours per week to try to break the format.

Also it is worth noting that whenever pros do well or even somewhat alright at Legacy GPs you have to keep in mind that many of them have 3 byes while we all beat up on each other for the first three rounds and STILL put many members of our community into the top 8.

[Hopo]

What I gather from this thread is that according to The Source, pros are actually worse in this game than everybody else.

[Philipp2293]

BBD isn't even a pro right now to my knowledge. He qualified for one of the Pro Tours last year by winning a Legacy Grand Prix and has played in a few but is not even currently on the Pro Tour.


Didn't he have an article on CFB about his experience on the last PT? Still then, I still wouldn't count him as a Pro, rather an upper end SCG grinder.

Talking about the SCG circuit, the only real pros who play at least semi regulary are Brad Nelson and Reid Duke, or am I missing someone? You could count Gerry T., but he's still on his way back on the train iirc.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What I gather from this thread is that according to The Source, pros are actually worse in this game than everybody else.
Reading is da tech.

[Patrunkenphat7]

What I gather from this thread is that according to The Source, pros are actually worse in this game than everybody else.

That is obviously not the point of this discussion.

[MGB]

Man would I ever love to see a Legacy Pro Tour just to see what the "Pros" really think are the best strategies in this format, and which particular configurations of those strategies are the best.

I knew going into Pro Tour Oath that Eldrazi was a Tier 1 strategy, but it didn't occur to me to move completely from the W/B and Mono-B processor versions to one that was focused entirely on the new aggressive Eldrazi and speed in general. Similarly, there are probably strategies in Legacy that I know are powerful but not properly configured at the moment, and a team of pros might stumble on the best possible decklist that I wouldn't have.

Then again, we might just see the "Pros" play barely modified takes on existing archetypes - Delver vs. Miracles vs. BUG, etc.

Who knows? I'd love to see it myself, though.

[Quasim0ff]

Reading is da tech.

No, that is actually what a vast majority seems to believe.

[Patrunkenphat7]

No, that is actually what a vast majority seems to believe.

No one believes that pros are worse than the average player... This thread is about the illogical point of view that pros can magically break any format they test and thus it is a waste of time for WotC to look at the strengths of Legacy to see how they can try to fix the modern metagame.

[sjmcc13]

What I gather from this thread is that according to The Source, pros are actually worse in this game than everybody else.
No, though I do think allot are worse then than Pros were 10+ Years ago, when the games rules were more complicated and there were Pros trying to break Vintage.

[Finn]

It is not as if pros have not put real effort into Legacy design. It has been laughable every time a big name pronounces the NEXT BIG THING whether it be hitting us all with the Gifts Ungiven deck that will rule or Hypergenesis combo or whatever, they all give up. And that's just it. They have tried and given up. It's a big damned format to brew in.

But the fact is that as long as Brainstorm is around, the distance you can get from existing decks is not large. Maybe a pro can come up with a competing consistency engine ala Elves or Lands given more time. But it will simply not be as good as cantrips. No, it won't. They will be down to working out of the same shells we do, and that makes the format very small. And that's just it. It's a small damned format to brew in.

[jrsthethird]

So lets take it from the top to bottom:

How about "top to middle", since your answers were further down in the same article...


So is it 271 or 289? Kinda matters...

287 actually, he clarifies that later in the article.


I'd love to know the taxes and expenses. I doubt that his round-the-earth trips cost the same as my 20 minutes by car.

"Once you’re already a Pro player, then you’ve crossed most of those barriers, but there’s still the fact that you spend a lot more money and time than anyone else traveling for PTs, and good luck traveling for GPs. A flight from Porto Alegre (where I live) to the US will cost anywhere from $1,000 to $1,500, depending on date and location. Add to that hotel expenses (from $30 to $100 a day usually, depending on how many people you share a room with and whether you stay at the event hotel or not. I like having a bed for myself, so I usually spend around $70 a day), transportation, registration and food expenses, and we’re looking at anywhere from $1,300 to $2,000 to play a GP—let’s say it averages around $1,800.

Right now, the prize for third place is $1,500. This means that for me to actually make money at a GP, I have to get 2nd, for $2,700.

But wait—there are taxes. Since I’m Brazilian and not American I can’t easily write things off. I automatically pay 30% of what I get before I even receive it. So, instead of $2,700, I make $1,890 if I get second, for a net gain of $90. That’s if I get 2nd place at a tournament of 2,000 people. If I were Platinum, I’d get a $250 appearance fee for GPs. That's an insignificant number for someone who spends $1,500 just to get there.

Now, if I were American, it would be a lot easier. I would still pay taxes, but it wouldn’t be a full 30%. I would still pay for a flight, but it would be $200 instead of $1,500. In this case, the $250 appearance fee actually means something. If a Platinum player Top 32s the event, they get $400, plus $250—that’s $650, which likely at least covers what they spent and, if it doesn’t, it’s not very far off. if I Top 32, I’m down over a thousand dollars!"


Do you have a family?

No.

Interestingly, his past year as actually been pretty lucrative: this article was in early 2015, and according to the Wizards rankings, he went from 287,000 (at the time of printing) to 333,000 (current earnings (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/alltime)) and moved up a spot on the all-time money rankings to 5th place.

[Koby]

Last time WotC sanctioned Legacy as a Professional Event was World 2011 Team Competition (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/worlds11/teammetagame) (3 player multi-format).

The results of "Pros" working on "Legacy decks" is basically a snapshot of the DTB subforum at the time.


The breakdown of the Legacy decks showed the least diversity as two of the thirteen archetypes comprised of more than 65% of the field. Stoneforge Mystic decks led that charge once again proving the power of the turn-three Batterskull. The recently revived RUG Fish lists showed what happens when you combine the large number of inexpensive instants and sorceries that Legacy has to offer with Delver of Secrets, Grim Lavamancer and Tarmogoyf.

So basically MaRo is just a shill with an agenda to sell booster packs.

[Ellomdian]

Legacy is a format that has been solved.

I certainly don't think it's been 'solved,' as the 'solution' depends on the event you are trying to play in (as it is with any format.) But it certainly has had the monkeys pounding at the typewriters a lot longer than Modern.

Also, I think there is something to be said about the complexity of a solution in Legacy as opposed to Modern, but that's the difference between a format that's been around for 20 years, and one that gets broken in half every time they print new cards.

[tescrin]

I have to say that he's missing that Legacy not only has been around a lot longer, allowing the strategies a much longer time to be weeded out; but also that Modern didn't exist X years ago and that SCGs have had monetary incentives for quite a while.

Further, just like the card pool is larger, so is the net knowledge because things have been tested in the other formats and can attempt to be ported. When they aren't ported over successfully because Legacy is more powerful and more disruptive. It's not like we haven't seen people attempt to amulet bloom, eggs, tron, or similar in legacy; and it just doesn't work.

[Kanti]

When they aren't ported over successfully because Legacy is more powerful and more disruptive. It's not like we haven't seen people attempt to amulet bloom, eggs, tron, or similar in legacy; and it just doesn't work.

I don't understand this part. Think you meant to say "when they aren't ported over successful it's because Legacy is more powerful and disruptive." I can agree to an extent, but I think Legacy as a format is the most open to ports, as decks can usually incorporate some of the formats powerful cards for themselves.

Good examples of like-for-like ports that I can think of are Elves and Dredge. Those are top decks, and one uses the game-breaking engine that was discovered in an Extended pro-tour. Dredge, as far as I remember, evolved from Friggorid decks of old extended by virtue of TSP being released and offering Narcomoeba and BfB. Both these decks lists are extremely similar to their format's predecessors, and rather than being hindered by Legacy they are naturally stronger as they access to bru-ro-ken spells (and lands...).

The decks you picked are just bad decks. Elves and Dredge though, oh yeah. And Eldrazi Stompy, another crazy port.

btw: I see I didn't add anything to the original discussion if Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern, and I probably won't, besides this. Pros are good at Magic, they are pros. They might win a PT based on playskill, but I don't buy the innovation bit. Legacy innovates, and more than innovation, more than "tech", it evolves. Miracles including 4-of Ponders is an indication of this, as is how seriously all of WotC takes cantrips now. Ponder would have been very good in some formats of old, and hell, I remember when people didn't auto-include it in many a U-based Legacy decks. Not the case anymore.

tl;dr Everyone's butthole is tight at the mere mention of cantrips thanks to this formats decks being exemplary.

[Jonathan Alexander]

btw: I see I didn't add anything to the original discussion if Legacy builders aren't as talented as Modern, and I probably won't, besides this. Pros are good at Magic, they are pros. They might win a PT based on playskill, but I don't buy the innovation bit. Legacy innovates, and more than innovation, more than "tech", it evolves. Miracles including 4-of Ponders is an indication of this, as is how seriously all of WotC takes cantrips now. Ponder would have been very good in some formats of old, and hell, I remember when people didn't auto-include it in many a U-based Legacy decks. Not the case anymore.


Ponder in Miracle is actually a great point in favour of what Mark Rosewater is saying. Raphael Levy played Miracles with four copies as early as 2013, back then everybody said it was stupid and unnecessary. Only after they printed Dig Through Time Ponder was played more widely, and now people still play it.

[Lord Seth]

Ponder in Miracle is actually a great point in favour of what Mark Rosewater is saying. Raphael Levy played Miracles with four copies as early as 2013, back then everybody said it was stupid and unnecessary. Only after they printed Dig Through Time Ponder was played more widely, and now people still play it.There's a difference between a smaller tweak like that and a deck running as rampant through the format as Eldrazi is right now in Modern.

Also, what you said applies to Modern. People were playing All-In Twin for years until Patrick Dickmann won a Grand Prix with Tempo Twin, and then that became the dominant build.

[Eldariel]

Last time Legacy was a Pro Tour format (at Worlds 2007) I don't remember pros innovating anything major. Decklists here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/event-coverage/top-legacy-decks-2007-07-28) had all been around the block for a while before, and continued to be afterwards too. Even Modern hasn't really been broken in forever and this time was solely due to the influx of new, heavily pushed cards in OotGW. More players would of course bring more refinement to the various lists but based on what I've seen I'd consider it highly unlikely that anything revolutionary were to occur.

[Finn]

Holy crap! Clawing his way back from Valhalla comes Mr. Porkka. I can't believe they even let you in here after so long. They didn't say Eldariel. They are talking about Eldrazi.

Guys, treat this old man with respect. He is one of the original innovators. I hope he sticks around.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/articles/15907-what-next-for-legacy-the-faerie-stompy-interview

How apropos that you have something to say on this topic.

Pros committing to brew in Legacy have never been successful beyond tweaking. The reasons for that are up to debate, but the fact is clear. Not a single deck today or ever is the result of a pro coming to town and introducing it to all us heathens.

[Kanti]

There's a difference between a smaller tweak like that and a deck running as rampant through the format as Eldrazi is right now in Modern.

Also, what you said applies to Modern. People were playing All-In Twin for years until Patrick Dickmann won a Grand Prix with Tempo Twin, and then that became the dominant build.

I don't think it's a minor tweak though, but a major innovation. Having 4-of Ponder become a staple of Ux Control decks rather than just Uxz Tempo decks is a major break-through in deck building as more than being a tweak in one specific deck list it has changed base deck building.

There is a difference between "tech", or small tweaks, and saying that 1cc cantrip that had been in the format for years was the answer, not just for Miracles, but for Magic decks in general. That's sculpting the culture of deckbuilding. It's like no one even understood that cantrips (besides Brainstorm) were incredible outside of combo shells. Probe coming out has just put the nail in the coffin.

[Finn]

Kanti, Ponder was slipped seamlessly into every deck that had brainstorm the moment it was legal. And we all agreed that it was superior right from the beginning. I do recall folks lamenting the lack of space in miracles for awhile, but it seems to me that you are claiming that somebody recently introduced the world to the power of this card that has been restricted in vintage for nearly a decade. It was understood. Really,really.

[tescrin]

Kanti, Ponder was slipped seamlessly into every deck that had brainstorm the moment it was legal. And we all agreed that it was superior right from the beginning. I do recall folks lamenting the lack of space in miracles for awhile, but it seems to me that you are claiming that somebody recently introduced the world to the power of this card that has been restricted in vintage for nearly a decade. It was understood. Really,really.

Prove it.

You can't.

[Hopo]

Pros committing to brew in Legacy have never been successful beyond tweaking. The reasons for that are up to debate, but the fact is clear. Not a single deck today or ever is the result of a pro coming to town and introducing it to all us heathens.

Strong words. How about Zombardment?

[HammerAndSickled]

Strong words. How about Zombardment?
Does anyone consider that a "deck" in legacy?

[Zombie]

Does anyone consider that a "deck" in legacy?

Nah. Some Dane's been clearing dailies with a green take with 4 Wayfinders, 4 Bridges and Entomb though.

[Finn]

Strong words. How about Zombardment?
What about it? It was not good enough to stick around. Seriously, is there some reason we should be discussing it?

I did not think I was making some grand pronouncement. It is just a fact that nearly every deck that has ever been a significant factor in Legacy has been the product of people developing them on this site (The Mana Drain did IGGy Pop and D+T was a Salvation deck). All from amateurs.

****************

Prove it.

You can't.
Tescrin, are you inviting me into a pissing contest? Not today, thank you. Anyway, I have no desire to go digging through the archives. Luckily I do not have to prove anything to you. But consider that I have no stakes in this conversation. I am simply relating facts to you as a public service because I was there.

[Quasim0ff]

Does anyone consider that a "deck" in legacy?

ReneRandrup have posted 1 5-0 in a league, 2 4-0 and 3 3-1 finished over the last month online. That says something, considering he is likely the only dude playing it.

[Noctalor]

Does anyone consider that a "deck" in legacy?

Well, it has more top8 placement at a gran prix than a lot of "considered legacy decks", so why not?

[iatee]

If CFB started brewing a legacy Eldrazi build, I would take their list after a few days over anything that gets posted here. These people play Magic for a living, of course they are good at testing and optimizing decks.

But even though regular Modern players didn't discover the right Eldrazi build before the Pro Tour, it was going to happen eventually. Eventually the turtle reaches the finish line too, in every format.

[shocked439]

If CFB started brewing a legacy Eldrazi build, I would take their list after a few days over anything that gets posted here. These people play Magic for a living, of course they are good at testing and optimizing decks.

But even though regular Modern players didn't discover the right Eldrazi build before the Pro Tour, it was going to happen eventually. Eventually the turtle reaches the finish line too, in every format.

Doesn't this assume that their eldrazi build would be as broken as the modern version? Legacy has better answers and a larger card pool the deck is not as menacing in legacy. I doubt CFB would run their eldrazi list in legacy unless it was supremely broken, but as long as legacy has wasteland, stifle, force of will, and daze broken decks have to stay honest and avoid true degeneracy.

[Finn]

Oh wait. I forgot about Caleb Durward. He does or did post on some of the message boards, but I recall seeing Vengevine Survival for the first time when he got 4th at a grand prix out of nowhere. That deck alone got Survival banned, and for good reason. I don't know if Caleb is a pro, but it kinda does not matter. He built the deck largely without community input.

[Hopo]

What about it? It was not good enough to stick around. Seriously, is there some reason we should be discussing it?



It's a deck you claimed did not exist. I just corrected your false statement.

[Spam]

Modern is the format where Amulet Bloom was broken for like 5 years and only got noticed because random guys had the balls to bring it to a gp while all the pro players where plying Twin/Jund. So yeah...

P.s.
A lazy attempt to gain likes from the modern community.

[iatee]

Doesn't this assume that their eldrazi build would be as broken as the modern version? Legacy has better answers and a larger card pool the deck is not as menacing in legacy. I doubt CFB would run their eldrazi list in legacy unless it was supremely broken, but as long as legacy has wasteland, stifle, force of will, and daze broken decks have to stay honest and avoid true degeneracy.

I just meant they would be able to optimize it faster than we can. I think an optimized build will be a pretty decent deck, at the very least better than legacy MUD, but probably not going to be T1 because while powerful it's ultimately less consistent in a long tournament than brainstorm decks.

[tescrin]

Tescrin, are you inviting me into a pissing contest? Not today, thank you. Anyway, I have no desire to go digging through the archives. Luckily I do not have to prove anything to you. But consider that I have no stakes in this conversation. I am simply relating facts to you as a public service because I was there.

lol I'm was just lightly trollin' ya. I figured you'd sniff it given the "you can't" but would've gotten a giggle out of you digging up all the information. I don't actually disagree with you.

EDIT: On Zombardment, I have a buddy who plays a brewed variation of it and is slowly getting good with it. So it's basically tier 1.

[Koby]

I did not think I was making some grand pronouncement. It is just a fact that nearly every deck that has ever been a significant factor in Legacy has been the product of people developing them on this site (The Mana Drain did IGGy Pop and D+T was a Salvation deck). All from amateurs.


To be fair, some of us have "Promotional Points" we just aren't "Professional Promoters". Your point is still salient, as we're not really developing those decks for the "Promotional Tour".

[bruizar]

Kanti, Ponder was slipped seamlessly into every deck that had brainstorm the moment it was legal. And we all agreed that it was superior right from the beginning. I do recall folks lamenting the lack of space in miracles for awhile, but it seems to me that you are claiming that somebody recently introduced the world to the power of this card that has been restricted in vintage for nearly a decade. It was understood. Really,really.

I first started seeing Ponders everywhere after Tom Martell's Stoneblade list with lingering souls and intuition aired on scglive. Did people play Brainstorm + Ponder outside of combo decks before that?

[Koby]

I first started seeing Ponders everywhere after Tom Martell's Stoneblade list with lingering souls and intuition aired on scglive. Did people play Brainstorm + Ponder outside of combo decks before that?

Yes:

1. Canadian Threshold played 4 Ponder since it was legal from Lorwyn. Link (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=2561&iddeck=26794)
2. Team America played at least 3 Ponder since it was legal from Lorwyn. Link (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=1545&iddeck=23267)
3. Baseruption played a good number of Ponders. Link (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=776&iddeck=12855)
4. Non-storm combo played 4 Ponder. Link (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=1035&iddeck=20635)
5. CB Top decks played a good number. Link (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=4363&iddeck=25528)
6. Bant played 4 Ponder. Link (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=3596&iddeck=29367)

[iatee]

Modern is the format where Amulet Bloom was broken for like 5 years and only got noticed because random guys had the balls to bring it to a gp while all the pro players where plying Twin/Jund. So yeah...

P.s.
A lazy attempt to gain likes from the modern community.

This is a really good point actually.

[ubernostrum]

There's definitely merit to the idea Legacy doesn't have as much incentive to "break" the format.

The pace of evolution of Legacy did speed up noticeably after SCG made it an every-weekend decent-cash-prize format with their Sunday Legacy Opens, and we saw a lot of refinement of things like the RUG tempo shell to the point where now 58/60 of the maindeck are effectively "solved". Similarly, older cards being powered up by new stuff (see: Survival) started getting found much faster, and powerful new cards got exploited more quickly and the decks they spawned got refined much more quickly. Just over a year ago we saw Bob Huang show up the first weekend after KTK release with the core U/R Cruise Delver shell already solved, for example, and I don't think things like that would have happened without the cash incentive Opens provided to figure out the format.

[Spam]

Money is certainly an incentive to refine the top strategy, but it also discourages brewing. If you go in for the money you want to be safe. You bring in new things only if they are insanely strong at first glance. Cruise was broken from day one and didn't need all that pondering, almost every one saw it coming. Besides, I think legacy is hard to break thanks to the large card pool, which offers limitless answers. Do we remeber when people thought Sneak attack was unstoppable and now is almost criminally underplayed?
Legacy is not modern, is harder to solve because people have answers that modern has not. However, it can be solved as well, but you would need a deck that can lock the opponent, preventing them from resolving their spells, and removing what they have on the field with mass removals for cheap. But you would need a miracle to find a deck like this.... oh, wait...



Don't worry, it's a joke[emoji14]

Inviato dal mio LG-D605 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Quasim0ff]

Money is certainly an incentive to refine the top strategy, but it also discourages brewing. If you go in for the money you want to be safe. You bring in new things only if they are insanely strong at first glance. Cruise was broken from day one and didn't need all that pondering, almost every one saw it coming. Besides, I think legacy is hard to break thanks to the large card pool, which offers limitless answers. Do we remeber when people thought Sneak attack was unstoppable and now is almost criminally underplayed?
Legacy is not modern, is harder to solve because people have answers that modern has not. However, it can be solved as well, but you would need a deck that can lock the opponent, preventing them from resolving their spells, and removing what they have on the field with mass removals for cheap. But you would need a miracle to find a deck like this.... oh, wait...



Don't worry, it's a joke[emoji14]

Inviato dal mio LG-D605 utilizzando Tapatalk
No, cruise wasn't broken from day one (or as soon as it was spoiled). The first person to mention it as a legacy playable (and busted card, in same sentence) was Karsten Kotter. Bob Huang broke it in the first weekend, but even afterwards people played 1-3 copies.

[Lemnear]

No, cruise wasn't broken from day one (or as soon as it was spoiled). The first person to mention it as a legacy playable (and busted card, in same sentence) was Karsten Kotter. Bob Huang broke it in the first weekend, but even afterwards people played 1-3 copies.

Lol. I called DTT replacing EnterTheInfinite day one in this forum. Just look it up. Same with TC in Delver with the reason of how fast tre.shold is built

[Echelon]

And then there still are the people that think it but don't feel the need to point it out.

[Lemnear]

And then there still are the people that think it but don't feel the need to point it out.

It just annoys me that even here on TheSource people think that unless stuff is on SCGs website or SCG cameras, it just does not exist and then we wonder why Todd Anderson claims BBD is the inventor or Miracles

[Echelon]

It just annoys me that even here on TheSource people think that unless stuff is on SCGs website or SCG cameras, it just does not exist and then we wonder why Todd Anderson claims BBD is the inventor or Miracles

Have you ever met my friend the honey badger? I think you'd like him.

[Ricardio]

Legacy has two central themes that modern does not:

1 - People have pet decks and will play what they know/love no matter the meta.
Example: I sat down for a match, saw my opponent was on lands. g1 he masterfully executed a swift marit lage and I died. I commented on how well he played it and he said he had been playing lands for nearly 10 years and he wouldn't play any other deck because he enjoys it too much.

2 - People will travel and play legacy because they truly enjoy the game.
Example: I was at SCG Charlotte and while in the main event checked out the legacy event. I asked players questions such as what are you playing, where are you from and the like. They all responded friendly and were happy to discuss deck choices. Some had driven hours to play in the equivalent of a legacy win a box for the sake of legacy which is great.
Example 2: When I played in the challenge the next day, every opponent was friendly and played with integrity. So refreshing from the scumbags and cheaters you find else where. Albeit not much was on the line but everyone was there to jam their legacy deck and enjoy their afternoon.

[nevilshute]

Legacy has two central themes that modern does not:

1 - People have pet decks and will play what they know/love no matter the meta.
Example: I sat down for a match, saw my opponent was on lands. g1 he masterfully executed a swift marit lage and I died. I commented on how well he played it and he said he had been playing lands for nearly 10 years and he wouldn't play any other deck because he enjoys it too much.

2 - People will travel and play legacy because they truly enjoy the game.
Example: I was at SCG Charlotte and while in the main event checked out the legacy event. I asked players questions such as what are you playing, where are you from and the like. They all responded friendly and were happy to discuss deck choices. Some had driven hours to play in the equivalent of a legacy win a box for the sake of legacy which is great.
Example 2: When I played in the challenge the next day, every opponent was friendly and played with integrity. So refreshing from the scumbags and cheaters you find else where. Albeit not much was on the line but everyone was there to jam their legacy deck and enjoy their afternoon.

The "not much on the line" thing could also play a part in how man "scumbags and cheaters" you can expect to find.

[iatee]

Related to all of that - legacy has an older player base because of $ / card availability. 40 year olds with jobs don't cheat at MTG tournaments where the top prize is $1000 and their deck is worth $4000.

[tescrin]

Related to all of that - legacy has an older player base because of $ / card availability. 40 year olds with jobs don't cheat at MTG tournaments where the top prize is $1000 and their deck is worth $4000.

Honestly, you could take first in most of your locals and probably "earn" less than you would from your cards inflating.

[Dice_Box]

Legacy is a small scene in localised areas. You don't want to cheat and get kicked out of the only store you can play in. A few hundred to a thousand is not worth not being able to play any more.

[Ricardio]

The "not much on the line" thing could also play a part in how man "scumbags and cheaters" you can expect to find.

Not much is relative to the player and there are scumbags and cheaters in every format but less so in legacy events from my experience.

[Ellomdian]

Legacy is a small scene in localised areas. You don't want to cheat and get kicked out of the only store you can play in. A few hundred to a thousand is not worth not being able to play any more.

People who play with 20 year old cards also tend to have LONG memories. Most people at FNM have no idea who Alex Bertoncini is, but I have friends who still make Mike Long jokes with me.

[Spam]

No, cruise wasn't broken from day one (or as soon as it was spoiled). The first person to mention it as a legacy playable (and busted card, in same sentence) was Karsten Kotter. Bob Huang broke it in the first weekend, but even afterwards people played 1-3 copies.
I must disagree. For legacy standards, breaking the format after one week was insane. You're right about Kotter writing that article, but that same article proved to me how the card was bonkers. Can we actually recall a similar statement before? Not even Delver had the same impact on the format on week one. Anyway, Modern can be great at lower levels, when people take the format in a more relaxed way. They bring to the tables tiers 2 and even 3 just for laughs and sometimes we have a new deck. Sadly, when things get competitive everyone goes back to Burn, Jund, Eldrazi etc.. innovation is actually more scarce in Modern than legacy. Imo.

Inviato dal mio LG-D605 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Quasim0ff]

I must disagree. For legacy standards, breaking the format after one week was insane. You're right about Kotter writing that article, but that same article proved to me how the card was bonkers. Can we actually recall a similar statement before? Not even Delver had the same impact on the format on week one. Anyway, Modern can be great at lower levels, when people take the format in a more relaxed way. They bring to the tables tiers 2 and even 3 just for laughs and sometimes we have a new deck. Sadly, when things get competitive everyone goes back to Burn, Jund, Eldrazi etc.. innovation is actually more scarce in Modern than legacy. Imo.

Inviato dal mio LG-D605 utilizzando Tapatalk

What I meant by my comment; People (in the broadest terms, not single persons but large groups) didn't consider Cruise and DTT to be broken. I agree that the card was broken from the first time people realized that 2x Fetchlands, Probe, Daze and Bolt pretty much meant you could draw three cards at your convenience. It might have sounded like I dismissed that it was recognised as potent and more than playable (Even that was actually debated) - I didn't. I just meant to say, we as a group largely cannot say "We realised it from the second it was spoiled" is bullshit.

This is copy pasted(!) from Kotter's article: "When Treasure Cruise hit the spoiler, my jaw dropped. Was it really possible that they printed Delvecestral Recall? Well, apparently it was, and I soon saw they'd also printed Ancestral Memories as an instant for UU (and some graveyard cards). I thought these had to cause an uproar and checked the discussion on The Source again. Turns out the reception was actually rather lukewarm. The cards were considered clunky and as having too negative an impact on Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose to really be worth playing in numbers."

[Eldariel]

Holy crap! Clawing his way back from Valhalla comes Mr. Porkka. I can't believe they even let you in here after so long. They didn't say Eldariel. They are talking about Eldrazi.

Guys, treat this old man with respect. He is one of the original innovators. I hope he sticks around.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/articles/15907-what-next-for-legacy-the-faerie-stompy-interview

How apropos that you have something to say on this topic.

Pros committing to brew in Legacy have never been successful beyond tweaking. The reasons for that are up to debate, but the fact is clear. Not a single deck today or ever is the result of a pro coming to town and introducing it to all us heathens.

Heh, and you as well: I'm surprised so many of the people from 10 years ago still play. Then again, I guess Legacy is a lifestyle onto its own. I hardly play nowadays but I trundle around the forums every now and then, and occasionally even drop a piece. I was glad to see Alix and Damon working on my oldest project though, especially given how much of an update it needed with all the recent printings. It's certainly interesting to see how viable it is in the contemporary Legacy landscape.


Oh wait. I forgot about Caleb Durward. He does or did post on some of the message boards, but I recall seeing Vengevine Survival for the first time when he got 4th at a grand prix out of nowhere. That deck alone got Survival banned, and for good reason. I don't know if Caleb is a pro, but it kinda does not matter. He built the deck largely without community input.

CalebD was actually the guy who originally helped me test Sea Stompy for CaNGD2, though that was a decade ago. He'd go on to innovate a fair bit afterwards. He's certainly been around the Source for years before unleashing Vengevival at the GP, which catapulted him into ChannelFireball.


What I meant by my comment; People (in the broadest terms, not single persons but large groups) didn't consider Cruise and DTT to be broken. I agree that the card was broken from the first time people realized that 2x Fetchlands, Probe, Daze and Bolt pretty much meant you could draw three cards at your convenience. It might have sounded like I dismissed that it was recognised as potent and more than playable (Even that was actually debated) - I didn't. I just meant to say, we as a group largely cannot say "We realised it from the second it was spoiled" is bullshit.

This is copy pasted(!) from Kotter's article: "When Treasure Cruise hit the spoiler, my jaw dropped. Was it really possible that they printed Delvecestral Recall? Well, apparently it was, and I soon saw they'd also printed Ancestral Memories as an instant for UU (and some graveyard cards). I thought these had to cause an uproar and checked the discussion on The Source again. Turns out the reception was actually rather lukewarm. The cards were considered clunky and as having too negative an impact on Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose to really be worth playing in numbers."

I can certainly see some truth behind this statement. Not just the Legacy community but Magic community in general tends to have a fair bit of inertia towards new alternatives, particularly when the new option is different enough that it's hard to say how it stacks up to the established options. Innovation is often driven by individuals or very small groups, and it takes time for ideas to catch on especially in times without large tournaments where decks can prove their mettle and persuade others to adopt them or at least to try them out.

There are more obvious cases like the Flash powerlevel errata removal, where the masses are certainly aware that the resulting decks are going to be busted and work on rather perfecting the best build than finding the best deck, but more often than not it takes time for new decks to catch on even if they float around smaller tournaments and perhaps the forums. Of course, new tech in old decks is adopted somewhat quicker since those changes tend to be easier to compare, but the overall observation that there is a lot of inertia working against new decks holds, particularly in a format like Legacy with the ever-greater costs for assembling decks and also a significant number of players committed to mastering their current weapon of choice.

That said, whatever the tone of the discussions, the tournament results did show TCruise taking off really quickly so certainly its power wasn't that much of a secret to much of the Legacy crowd. It didn't take too long for DTD's impact to be felt either, particularly in the rise of OmniTell.

[phonics]

What I meant by my comment; People (in the broadest terms, not single persons but large groups) didn't consider Cruise and DTT to be broken. I agree that the card was broken from the first time people realized that 2x Fetchlands, Probe, Daze and Bolt pretty much meant you could draw three cards at your convenience. It might have sounded like I dismissed that it was recognised as potent and more than playable (Even that was actually debated) - I didn't. I just meant to say, we as a group largely cannot say "We realised it from the second it was spoiled" is bullshit.

This is copy pasted(!) from Kotter's article: "When Treasure Cruise hit the spoiler, my jaw dropped. Was it really possible that they printed Delvecestral Recall? Well, apparently it was, and I soon saw they'd also printed Ancestral Memories as an instant for UU (and some graveyard cards). I thought these had to cause an uproar and checked the discussion on The Source again. Turns out the reception was actually rather lukewarm. The cards were considered clunky and as having too negative an impact on Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose to really be worth playing in numbers."

I think it was just legacy had not fully adapted to the post delver meta, where so many good, new cards were added that made the tempo thresh shell so much stronger than most people realized, Treasure Cruise and DTT sort of forced the meta since they were powerful cards and essentially 'forced' people to deckbuild with as many low cost cantrips as possible, probe became widely played and then after the bannings people realized strong cantrip core still was in spite of having cruise banned and then DTT later. So many good creatures have been printed that goyf isnt the defacto aggro creature, other delver variants like grixis and uwr became more popular because people didnt have to run green for beats anymore.

[Tormod]

No, cruise wasn't broken from day one (or as soon as it was spoiled). The first person to mention it as a legacy playable (and busted card, in same sentence) was Karsten Kotter. Bob Huang broke it in the first weekend, but even afterwards people played 1-3 copies.

And Bob Huang got the list from a local Canadian player after facing him online. Ben Winokur if I recall correctly.

[Lord Seth]

Legacy has two central themes that modern does not:

1 - People have pet decks and will play what they know/love no matter the meta.
Example: I sat down for a match, saw my opponent was on lands. g1 he masterfully executed a swift marit lage and I died. I commented on how well he played it and he said he had been playing lands for nearly 10 years and he wouldn't play any other deck because he enjoys it too much.

2 - People will travel and play legacy because they truly enjoy the game.
Example: I was at SCG Charlotte and while in the main event checked out the legacy event. I asked players questions such as what are you playing, where are you from and the like. They all responded friendly and were happy to discuss deck choices. Some had driven hours to play in the equivalent of a legacy win a box for the sake of legacy which is great.
Example 2: When I played in the challenge the next day, every opponent was friendly and played with integrity. So refreshing from the scumbags and cheaters you find else where. Albeit not much was on the line but everyone was there to jam their legacy deck and enjoy their afternoon.But both of those things are true about Modern.

[Ronald Deuce]

MaRo has said lots of things.

Like that Mental Misstep would've been too broken to countenance if it had been a free Force Spike.

[bruizar]

What I meant by my comment; People (in the broadest terms, not single persons but large groups) didn't consider Cruise and DTT to be broken. I agree that the card was broken from the first time people realized that 2x Fetchlands, Probe, Daze and Bolt pretty much meant you could draw three cards at your convenience. It might have sounded like I dismissed that it was recognised as potent and more than playable (Even that was actually debated) - I didn't. I just meant to say, we as a group largely cannot say "We realised it from the second it was spoiled" is bullshit.

This is copy pasted(!) from Kotter's article: "When Treasure Cruise hit the spoiler, my jaw dropped. Was it really possible that they printed Delvecestral Recall? Well, apparently it was, and I soon saw they'd also printed Ancestral Memories as an instant for UU (and some graveyard cards). I thought these had to cause an uproar and checked the discussion on The Source again. Turns out the reception was actually rather lukewarm. The cards were considered clunky and as having too negative an impact on Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose to really be worth playing in numbers."

This happens so often though. I've come to reconcile with this fact that the internet hive mind is often wrong about new cards. When WOTC makes printing errors, they usually don't make one, but several broken cards at the same time. The Eldrazi issue isn't so much an Eye of Ugin issue as it is that there are just too many good Eldrazi creatures now. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy was tossed off as te worst flip walker going for $8,- (here and on salvation and reddit). Now people are trading kidneys for a playset. Same for the delve spells. Liliana of the Veil was also considered bad on thesource. All the focus was on snapcaster mage because liliana compared bad to jace ("but it doesnt win the game"-argument)