Confirmed: Eternal Masters - June 10, 2016

[Koby]

Announcing: Eternal Masters (wizards.com) (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/announcing-eternal-masters-2016-02-15)

Force of Will is Mythic.
Wasteland is Rare.

[Lemnear]

Announcing: Eternal Masters (wizards.com) (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/announcing-eternal-masters-2016-02-15)

Force of Will is Mythic.
Wasteland is Rare.

Thank god. Foil FoWs whi h doesn't cost a fortune like the Judge ones

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Glad it's been confirmed. Force of will at mythic seems a bit questionable though...

Side note, that's the best city of brass has ever looked :laugh:

EDIT: Hopefully port and misdirection are in there too so that the mtgo prices crash. It's pretty stupid that my digital ports are worth more than my cardboard ones.

[H]

Wow, I know what I am saving up some money for now.

[Lemnear]

Glad it's been confirmed. Force of will at mythic seems a bit questionable though...

Side note, that's the best city of brass has ever looked :laugh:

Indeed lol

[guillemnicolau]

Thank god. Foil FoWs whi h doesn't cost a fortune like the Judge ones

Yep. But even uglier than those.

[Lemnear]

Yep. But even uglier than those.

How dare you question TERESE NIELSON art!?

[guillemnicolau]

How dare you question TERESE NIELSON art!?

You mean Nielsen... and I really like her art, but not all of it, I'm not a fanboy :D

[Sloshthedark]

also japanese Fows... ugly as hell... cool city "reference" but I'm tired of new Wastelands arts

Initial Concept and Game Design: Tom LaPille (lead)

...this is awkward

[Koby]

Initial Concept and Game Design: Tom LaPille (lead)

...this is awkward
Better Tom than MaRo. Honestly.

[CabalTherapy]

I hope they print contemporary Legacy staples such as Goblin Lackey, Werebear, and Reset as well. :rolleyes:

[barcode]

The Wasteland is City of Brass decaying? Sick.


http://media.wizards.com/2016/images/daily/en_f9e7rFQpkc.png

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/md1/15.jpg

[Lemnear]

I just like that Nielen got another spin on FoW after all these years. Its quite similar to the original concept and WotC. thankfully did not slap some random digital art on it

[MGB]

That's a pretty sweet force.

[Lemnear]

In before Ponder/Preordain reprint

[warai]

Foil Forces with Terese Nielsen art totally made my day. Still.... that original art is superior in my opinion. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This reserved list non-sense has to disappear some time. They have printed and printed again reserved list cards and they still come with this silly argument to not reprint the dual lands..

Valueable cards on top of my mind on reserved list that were reprinted:
Mox Diamond
Intuition
Morphling
Phyrexian Dreadnought

[Undomian]

Can't wait to get Chinese Forces! If I'm lucky maybe we'll get Baleful Strix too.

[iamajellydonut]

This reserved list non-sense has to disappear some time. They have printed and printed again reserved list cards and they still come with this silly argument to not reprint the dual lands..

Valueable cards on top of my mind on reserved list that were reprinted:

"The original policy only applied to non-premium cards, meaning that Reserved cards could still be reprinted as a premium-exclusive card (and quite a number of cards had been reprinted such way). Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list would be printed in either premium or non-premium form."

[Barook]

Initial Concept and Game Design: Tom LaPille (lead)

...this is awkward
Great Sable Stag reprint confirmed. Let's just hope Adam Prosak can unfuck this mess.

Also interested to see how it's going to affect the MTGO prizes in the next few hours/days. A shame they can't reproduce the same goldrush we had with VMA back then. That was fantastic.

[cdr]

Yeah, 2009 was roughly the time the "reserved list forever" faction at Wizards won. Some people who were pushing for getting rid of the reserved list even left the company around then.

[Stuart]

This is awesome news! I really like the Waste and Force arts.

That said, I feel like a dope for picking up 2nd playsets of Waste and Force this past month...

[Bosque]

Without reserved list cards, not sure what I actually want from this set sadly. I mean, having extra playsets of Wasteland and Force of Will will be nice so I don't have to swap cards between decks so often. I really hope this is popular and leads to killing off the reserved list in the long term due to interest in legacy.

Wonder what else we'll get in the set?

[Ltj999]

So psyched for this. Anything to increase the legacy player base is fine with me. Not that this wont solve the dual land issue, but it does seem that dual land prices have been going down slightly over the past year or so, wonder if this will spike them again.

[Quasim0ff]

Pretty glad they did this.


pretty sad there's not german cards.

[Douif]

I just hope that they do not announce a new format with legacy pool but without the RL when they will release the Eternal Master set.

Otherwise, we can finally have some japanese FoW, that's pretty cool :)

[warai]

"The original policy only applied to non-premium cards, meaning that Reserved cards could still be reprinted as a premium-exclusive card (and quite a number of cards had been reprinted such way). Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list would be printed in either premium or non-premium form."

The reserved list was created on the basis to hold any reprint from devaluation of cards. If I am a player holding a lot of let's say Mox Diamonds, I could have easily filed a lawsuit against Hasbro to be compensated for the damages I got from the FTV printing. Premium or non premium, a reprint is a reprint.

Its my opinion, the reserved list is purely non-sense and mark my words.. One day they will reprint the dual lands. It could take 5, 10 or 20 years.

[DLifshitz]

Force of Will is Mythic. Wasteland is Rare.

Whatever else is in there, this is already pretty good. Now let's just hope for a large print run.

[snorlaxcom]

Who the hell cares? With the drastic cut in Legacy events starting this year having some staples isn't going to change squat. Wotc just playing with your balls by releasing some product to make money off a format they do nothing to maintain. We might get back two gps a year that we can all play at and not these concurrent bs weekends. Set will no doubt sell, but I'm already thinking what they can do for set 2. Either way BB duals ftw.

[HSCK]

So the source that had the good info was right? Going back and reading the highly dubious posts about why this set was highly dubious is pretty funny.

[PhantomLotus]

Wonder what the odds are for getting snow duals? IMO that's the best way to get around the RL for duals.

[snorlaxcom]

Wonder what the odds are for getting snow duals? IMO that's the best way to get around the RL for duals.

Plateau be in the basic land slot lol.

[Quasim0ff]

Wonder what the odds are for getting snow duals? IMO that's the best way to get around the RL for duals.

I'm pretty sure the reserved list doesn't "allow" functional reprints :(

*@Plateau, I have a friend playing Painter, mono red version. He's trying to pimp his deck, and want beta plateau's too, but as he said, "Who wants to pay 500$ for black border toilet paper?"

[Patrunkenphat7]

Wotc just playing with your balls

I think we will see the Legacy tournament scene grow again in 2017. Not sure whether that will be WotC, SCG, or a SCG competitor, but the player base is huge right now.

[Norm]

I'm pretty sure the reserved list doesn't "allow" functional reprints :(

*@Plateau, I have a friend playing Painter, mono red version. He's trying to pimp his deck, and want beta plateau's too, but as he said, "Who wants to pay 500$ for black border toilet paper?"

What about a strictly better "when this land enters the battlefield, look at the top card of your library" :)


(clearly notsrs)

[Pilhas]

It is growing in Europe. The amount of big tournaments doubled(or tripled?) from last year

[Dice_Box]

Hold on to your Duals, their prices are about to go up. Also now I am forced to make a unmakeable choice, what do I hate more, the old Force art or the new boarder? (Yea, you can tell at me now.)

Who wants to bet that now we see Stoneforge unbanned in Modern?

[sjmcc13]

The part about being designed for draft, and leading off with Commander have me a bit worried about the sets contents.

I get the feeling there will be to much EDH and useless filler, and not enough cards playable outside of EDH.

I am also worried about this being a low print run set like Modern Masters, and not enough getting printed to actually make a dent in physical prices. Tempest Remasters was available for less than a month if I recall correctly, and we all know what they tried to pull with VMA.

[Berserking Now]

I fear that this set will cause dual land prices will get more out of hand which is discouraging me from buying the last 15 cards I need to finish my first legacy deck. It is hard to justify getting a dual land when you might be priced out of the last five you need. Otherwise, it is good to see that they are trying to address some of the price issues.

[MaximumC]

I'm pretty sure the reserved list doesn't "allow" functional reprints :(

*@Plateau, I have a friend playing Painter, mono red version. He's trying to pimp his deck, and want beta plateau's too, but as he said, "Who wants to pay 500$ for black border toilet paper?"

Oh, this comes up all the time. The Reserve List only prohibits them from making functional reprints. If a card has new mechanics, it's not a functional reprint. Now, that said, the whole legal challenge to the Reserve List boils down to mushy-mushy equity anyway, since the claim that Jerkoff Collector Conglomerate or whoever they care about would likely bring is a promissory estoppel / unfair business practices claim. So, Hasbro's legal team likely has to think about whether a mechanical change to a card is so minor that the aforesaid Jerkoff could claim it was not actually a change at all, and thus a violation of WotC's promise. That's the nuts and bolts at play when WotC talks about the "Spirit" of the Reserve List.

So, in the case of Fork -> Reverberate, the question is whether changing the color of the copied spell actually makes any difference to the function of the card. There's a fair case that it doesn't; after all, who plays Blue Elemental Blast, anyway? 2010's version of Painter? In the case of Snow Duals, there's a stronger case to make because there are actually lots of cards that interact and care about Snow mana and snow lands. It's a scale, but it's not hard for WotC to print mechanically distinct cards with the same power level as those on the Reserve List. They choose not to do so.

ANYWAY

Let's try to think about what's in this set and what's out. Since it has to be draftable, and presumably intended to help Legacy at least a little bit, one would assume we see Legacy archetypes in each color. I don't know what the color combinations would be... but here's my initial guess at what cards would be in consideration:

Blue: Merfolk
White: Death and Taxes
Black: Pox
Red: Goblins or Burn
Green: Elves

Blue-White: Miracles
Blue-Black: Storm or Reanimator
Blue-Red: Delver
Blue-Green: Shardless
White-Black: Zombardment/Tokens?
White-Red: uh... Burn?
White-Green: Maverick
Black-Red: more... burn?
Black-Green: Nic Fit
Red-Green: Belcher

EDIT: The nice thing is that very few of these archetypes rely on reserve list cards for their core functionality.

[PhantomLotus]

I'm pretty sure the reserved list doesn't "allow" functional reprints :(

*@Plateau, I have a friend playing Painter, mono red version. He's trying to pimp his deck, and want beta plateau's too, but as he said, "Who wants to pay 500$ for black border toilet paper?"

Not functionally the same, no. Snow does other things, though... Opens up other interactions (that are probably meaningless in Legacy, but whatever). I think they could do it.

[Barook]

With Wasteland and FoW confirmed including rarity, I wonder if the initial rumors about Karakas (rare) and Jace, the Mind Sculptor (mythic) were also true.

Could just be a lucky stab in the dark, but who knows.

[iamajellydonut]

I just hope that they do not announce a new format with legacy pool but without the RL when they will release the Eternal Master set.

inb4 edh masters.


The reserved list was created on the basis to hold any reprint from devaluation of cards. If I am a player holding a lot of let's say Mox Diamonds, I could have easily filed a lawsuit against Hasbro to be compensated for the damages I got from the FTV printing.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=jet+fuel+can%27t+melt+steel+beams

[Stan]

Snow Duals won't happen because they're too close to the original, but something like legendary snow duals might be different enough for them to try it. Either way, I have at least five of every dual, wouldn't affect me too hard.

[rufus]

I'm pretty sure the reserved list doesn't "allow" functional reprints :(
...

Good thing they haven't printed any functional reprints of Fork.

[MaximumC]

Not functionally the same, no. Snow does other things, though... Opens up other interactions (that are probably meaningless in Legacy, but whatever). I think they could do it.

They could. And, unlike Reverberate, I think Snow Duals are very relevant.

Cards that get might see play in reaction to Snow Duals:
Chilling Shade, Cold Snap, Freyalise's Radiance, Icequake, Into the North, Rimewind Taskmage, Scrying Sheets, Skred, Sunstone


Good thing they haven't printed any functional reprints of Fork.

Don't be that guy. First off, it wasn't a functional reprint - the new version didn't change the Color of the spell. Second, they claim that they got a backlash when they tried this and are not going to get THAT close to a functional reprint again.

[Dice_Box]

It goes against the spirit of the list, another arbitrary line they have said they will not cross.

[Ticalstal]

Well I feel like Wasteland being 248/249 almost confirms enemy fetchlands will be in the set like that Reddit poster had said (Verdant Catacombs being 249/249). Should be pretty interesting especially if they have new art - although I was hoping they would be reprinted in standard.

EDIT: Never mind V is before W - I have to study my alphabets some more

[PirateKing]

Dual Lands are high demand, so I'm all for lowering the price a bit, but it'll be within reason.

It's the shit like Imperial Recruiter and Grim Tutor with stupid high prices based on availability alone. Those need to come back to earth hard. RL cards like Candelabra of Tawnos and City of Traitors and anything from Legends sees fringe play but is priced to oblivion. That's the shit that gets me hardest.

Dual lands can be $100 at the high end, but Chains of Mephistopheles? Fringe cards should be priced as such.

[Lothar Rendulic]

Anyone have any speculation on the price on what will happen to Force of Will and Wastelands? Will they drop by a lot?

[Megadeus]

What does this mean for legacy as a format? Increased interest obviously, but maybe increased support as well? More GPs? SCG Opens again? More localized 5ks?

[Megadeus]

Well I feel like Wasteland being 248/249 almost confirms enemy fetchlands will be in the set like that Reddit poster had said (Verdant Catacombs being 249/249). Should be pretty interesting especially if they have new art - although I was hoping they would be reprinted in standard.

EDIT: Never mind V is before W - I have to study my alphabets some more

Yavimaya Hollow probably? Is that RL?

[MaximumC]

inb4 edh masters.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=jet+fuel+can%27t+melt+steel+beams

It's not that far-fetched. To put it in legal terms, someone who claims to be damaged by WotC going back on its guarantee would have this claim, at least:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Elements+Promissory+Estoppel

In layman's terms:

It goes against the spirit of the list, another arbitrary line they have said they will not cross.

Would such a suit succeed? Who cares? It'd be a risk and there's literally no reason for WotC to take that risk.

[Ticalstal]

Yavimaya Hollow probably? Is that RL?

Unfortunately that's a reserved list card. The best guess I've heard someone mention is Vesuva but even that is kind of a let down

[sjmcc13]

Yavimaya Hollow probably? Is that RL?

It is reserved, last set to have reserved cards.

[sjmcc13]

Unfortunately that's a reserved list card. The best guess I've heard someone mention is Vesuva but even that is kind of a let down

Wirewood Lodge fits, and works with an elf theme...

[Chatto]

Natural Order, Grim Tutor, Show and Tell?

[thecrav]

Confirmed by Helen on Twitter: No Eternal Masters Grand Prix

https://twitter.com/HeleneBergeot/status/699282803318370304

So maybe the "this sucks so it's okay to draft" won't be too strong

[lsho]

Watery Grave
Windbrisk Heights
Wirewood Lodge
Wooded Bastion
Woodland Cemetary
Yavimaya Coast
Yavimaya Hollow

But this also confirms: no friendly coloured fetch lands (Wooded Foothills, Windswept Heath). Leaving us with:
- Something unrelated
- Shocklands (Watery Grave)
- Painlands (not realistic)
- Filter Lands (Wooded Bastion)
- Enemy coloured tap lands (Woodland Cemetary)

[Ace/Homebrew]

I get the feeling there will be to much EDH and useless filler, and not enough cards playable outside of EDH.
This. I'm betting Demonic Tutor will fill a mythic slot.

[Stuart]

Blue: Merfolk
White: Death and Taxes
Black: Pox
Red: Goblins or Burn
Green: Elves

Blue-White: Miracles
Blue-Black: Storm or Reanimator
Blue-Red: Delver
Blue-Green: Shardless
White-Black: Zombardment/Tokens?
White-Red: uh... Burn?
White-Green: Maverick
Black-Red: more... burn?
Black-Green: Nic Fit
Red-Green: Belcher

EDIT: The nice thing is that very few of these archetypes rely on reserve list cards for their core functionality.

I was thinking about this too. Duals will obviously spike, but there are still enough viable Legacy decks that don't need duals for this set to open up doors to new players. Of course, that's assuming the new players are willing to not play the Decks To Beat . . .

Also, Deadguy could go in the WB slot.


What does this mean for legacy as a format? Increased interest obviously, but maybe increased support as well? More GPs? SCG Opens again? More localized 5ks?

It feels incredibly likely that this will happen.

[H]

I'd really love if Imperial Recruiter was in here, it is one of the few cards that is Legacy playable that I don't happen to own...

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Filter lands would be really nice seeing as how they're expensive for now reason currently. But I'm still pessimistic that this will only drive the prices of RL cards (ie duals) way, way up while having a minor impact the released cards prices. It is going to have a gigantic effect on mtgo though which is where WOTC wants you to play all of your eternal magic anyway.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'd really love if Imperial Recruiter was in here, it is one of the few cards that is Legacy playable that I don't happen to own...

That would be nice. It would also be nice for them to print Goblin Matron so foil ones can be obtained for a reasonable amount. :tongue:

[H]

That would be nice. It would also be nice for them to print Goblin Matron so foil ones can be obtained for a reasonable amount. :tongue:

Yeah, some number of P3K cards is virtually guaranteed in my mind. Imperial Seal seems like a long-shot (not that I care, I own an English one) but it rarely sees play even in proxy Vin tage so Recruiter seems like the one that sees the most play of what's left. Probably the Red mythic, since I can't really think of what else they would do there.

Hopefully they reprint Grove of the Burnwillows too, because that is a really dumb price on it (again, not sour grapes, I don't care, I own a playset).

[GenghisTom]

Sick new, I'm pumped.
I hope there's a good amount of new art, unlike Modern Masters 2015 which only had a few new arts.
Very excited to see what's in the set.

[iamajellydonut]

Yeah, some number of P3K cards is virtually guaranteed in my mind. Imperial Seal seems like a long-shot (not that I care, I own an English one) but it rarely sees play even in proxy Vin tage so Recruiter seems like the one that sees the most play of what's left. Probably the Red mythic, since I can't really think of what else they would do there.

It's gonna be Riding the Dilu Horse and Overwhelming Forced for P3K reprints.

[H]

It's gonna be Riding the Dilu Horse and Overwhelming Forced for P3K reprints.

I literally laughed out loud, because you are probably right. :cry: :laugh:

[AngryTroll]

Imperial Recruiter would be awesome. Aluren is a sweet deck, and if you own Shardless BUG or BUG Delver you are most of the way to having it assembled...except for $1000 of extremely fringe, non-reserved list cards.

[PirateKing]

So is this set going to exclude stuff in the Modern cardpool? Do you think we'll see Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant or Vendilion Clique? And when they say Vintage, do you think they'll reprint stuff like Gush and Mental Mistep and that nonsense as well?

[Gheizen64]

Snow duals may be too close to actual duals , but legendary duals wouldn't be and would shave a bit the price on normal duals by removing 1-of every dual from your deck essentially. Still, this is an old discussion.

Let's ride the dilu horse boys.

[Kuma]

MaRo has said that both Snow-Covered duals and legendary duals violate the spirit of the reserved list...

...the only spirit I hate more than the spirit of EDH.

[sadface]

This set better have Daze. I refuse to pay $120 for a digital playset.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Kuma]

MaRo also said that the set is all reprints in case anyone was wondering.

[MaximumC]

MaRo has said that both Snow-Covered duals and legendary duals violate the spirit of the reserved list...

...the only spirit I hate more than the spirit of EDH.

Citation? I don't remember him saying this, and you would think WotC would be very, very careful what representations they make about the Reserve List given how much it ties their hands.

[twndomn]

I'm gunning for Every Single Karakas, if reprinted!!!

[Dan Pyre]

I am going to blow a gasket if Goblin Matron, Settler, and Lackey aren't included. Foils (that can ever be found) please!

[Crimhead]

Snow Duals won't happen because they're too close to the original, but something like legendary snow duals might be different enough for them to try it..
From the official reprint policy:

The complete list of reserved cards appears at the end of this document. Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
Technically, adding or removing super-types doesn't change a card enough to circumvent the reservrd list.


I just hope that they do not announce a new format with legacy pool but without the RL when they will release the Eternal Master set.

Yeah, I'm a little worried what they might be scheming.

[Dark Ritual]

.
From the official reprint policy:

Technically, adding or removing super-types doesn't change a card enough to circumvent the reservrd list.


Yeah, I'm a little worried what they might be scheming.

They could just be out of ideas. This set could include tarmogoyf and perhaps that's the reason they made it, to introduce more goyfs into the market without releasing back to back MMA sets. Dunno. Could have just been them listening to the playerbase for once/making a pseudo legacy/vintage masters without ABU duals.

Cards that modo players want the most in this set are probably rishadan port and misdirection. Daze too. Some really ridiculous things on modo price wise in comparison to paper.

Imperial seal would be the definition of hype but I'm not holding my breath for a card with the price tag of imperial seal in this set. It would tank the price so hard if they put it at rare or even mythic as it is quite low demand but even smaller supply since the card really isn't that good.

I'd probably live with reservedless legacy if it supplanted modern as a pro tour format/cannibalize it a la modern eating up extended.

[sigmanugary]

Soooo much hype! This will be huge here in Europe where we have a solid Legacy scene!

[jrsthethird]

Dual Lands are high demand, so I'm all for lowering the price a bit, but it'll be within reason.

It's the shit like Imperial Recruiter and Grim Tutor with stupid high prices based on availability alone. Those need to come back to earth hard. RL cards like Candelabra of Tawnos and City of Traitors and anything from Legends sees fringe play but is priced to oblivion. That's the shit that gets me hardest.

Dual lands can be $100 at the high end, but Chains of Mephistopheles? Fringe cards should be priced as such.

Recruiter and Tutor are great candidates for reprint.


Watery Grave
Windbrisk Heights
Wirewood Lodge
Wooded Bastion
Woodland Cemetary
Yavimaya Coast
Yavimaya Hollow

But this also confirms: no friendly coloured fetch lands (Wooded Foothills, Windswept Heath). Leaving us with:
- Something unrelated
- Shocklands (Watery Grave)
- Painlands (not realistic)
- Filter Lands (Wooded Bastion)
- Enemy coloured tap lands (Woodland Cemetary)

Filters are the best option I think.


It's gonna be Riding the Dilu Horse and Overwhelming Forced for P3K reprints.

Other P3K cards that are ridiculously expensive and Commander playable that could use a reasonable (non-Judge foil) reprint:

Capture of Jingzhou
Imperial Seal
Ravages of War
Rolling Earthquake
Three Visits
Zodiac Dragon

Let's not forget good ol' Goblin Settler from Starter '99 either.

[Bosque]

I am excited at this bringing new people in to Legacy. I am bummed that the reserved list is going to ramp up interest in the format, and then make it actually more difficult to get into most decks. I hope at least this set might have reprints to allow new folks into the format with at least a few decks, though likely mostly the mono colored ones.

[MaximumC]

.
Technically, adding or removing super-types doesn't change a card enough to circumvent the reservrd list.


Says who?

Once you're not reprinting exactly the same card, you're in a grey area. Presumably changing the card name is on the bad side of that grey area, but changing types doesn't seem obviously violative of the policy to me. It's all fertile ground to argue over.

[Crimhead]

Says who? Says WotC:

The complete list of reserved cards appears at the end of this document. Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.

http://archive.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

[MaximumC]

Says WotC:
http://archive.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

Ah, okay. I thought you were arguing about the SPIRIT OF THE RESERVE LIST again. The definition of "card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness" is clear and unambiguous. Thanks!

EDIT: This actually reminded me about one of the hilarious consequences of the list; we cannot have certain vanilla creatures ever again. Roc of Kher Ridges means we will never see vanilla 3/3 Bird for 3R ever again. I wonder how often this comes up in design?

[thecrav]

It's gonna be Riding the Dilu Horse and Overwhelming Forced for P3K reprints.

AWW Yea, I'm bringing back Blouses!

[Varal]

I'm not sure about the P3K cards, they seem to usually reprint them as Judge foils. Most of them don't really see play except in Commander. If they reprint all the high value cards, there won't have any left for the future. I think a Mana Drain reprint would be more exciting than a Capture of Jingzhou one.

We'll probably see many Modern banned cards reprinted like Dark Depths.

[sjmcc13]

Watery Grave
Windbrisk Heights
Wirewood Lodge
Wooded Bastion
Woodland Cemetary
Yavimaya Coast
Yavimaya Hollow

But this also confirms: no friendly coloured fetch lands (Wooded Foothills, Windswept Heath). Leaving us with:
- Something unrelated
- Shocklands (Watery Grave)
- Painlands (not realistic)
- Filter Lands (Wooded Bastion)
- Enemy coloured tap lands (Woodland Cemetary)
Wizards School from the homelands land cycle also fits in there....


So is this set going to exclude stuff in the Modern cardpool? Do you think we'll see Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant or Vendilion Clique? And when they say Vintage, do you think they'll reprint stuff like Gush and Mental Mistep and that nonsense as well?
Stuff on the Modern Baned list would be fine, but I for one hope there are no modern Legal cards in the set.

[Bongo]

My Top 10 "please include these Rares/Mythics besides Force and Waste":

1. Imperial Seal
2. Grim Tutor
3. Mana Drain (unlikely)
4. Imperial Recruiter
5. Karakas
6. Mana Crypt
7. Rishadan Port
8. Show and Tell
9. Flusterstorm
10. Grove of the Burnwillows

Besides the rares, I'm hoping they reprint some Uncommons that are expensive. Speaking of it, I could make a Top 10 list for that as well:

1. Aether Vial
2. Gemstone Mine
3. Cabal Therapy
4. Heritage Druid
5. Enlightened Tutor
6. Counterbalance
7. Goblin Lackey
8. Cursecatcher
9. Cabal Coffers
10. Sensei's Divining Top


And for good measure, the Commons:

1. Chain Lightning
2. Serum Visions
3. Gitaxian Probe
4. Relic of Progenitus
5. Lotus Petal
6. Daze
7. Nettle Sentinel
8. Simian Spirit Guide
9. Lava Spike
10. Terminate

[apple713]

This news has probably jump started my sell out. :(

Anyone else notice this release is the same date as GP Columbus?

source (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/2016-grand-prix-updates-2015-09-10)

[Deviruchi]

After Judge FoW and Mana Drain they are going to print FoW as Mythic? Please don't collect foil counters. Don't be like me :D

Seeing Adam Prosak on the list makes me curious how many combo cards will be in this EMA. What is also interesting is how many cards will have their first appearance in foil version.

[Quasim0ff]

This news has probably jump started my sell out. :(

Anyone else notice this release is the same date as GP Columbus?

source (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/2016-grand-prix-updates-2015-09-10)
They don't intend to make any EMA GP's.

[Crysthorn]

If you wanna believe the guy that leaked Eternal Masters info several weeks ago (and at this point I don't see why you wouldn't), this set will include:
* Show and Tell
* Rishadan Port
* Stoneforge Mystic
* Lotus Petal
* Swords to Plowshares
* enemy fetches (Scalding Tarn, etc.)

[owerbart]

Good stuff. Hopefully this will attract new people to invest in Legacy :)

Also i'm so fucking glad they didn't shoehorned jace into the FoW art.

Also I agree about the P3K probably seeing some reprint. Regarding printing some cards like lotus petal as common, how would it affect Pauper?

[twndomn]

Just Noticed that Wizards will release EM on June 10th; that's the date of Legacy GP in Columbus, Ohio and Prague.

:cool:

Let me guess what people would be doing during that weekend.

[square_two]

Just Noticed that Wizards will release EM on June 10th; that's the date of Legacy GP in Columbus, Ohio and Prague.

:cool:

Let me guess what people would be doing during that weekend.

I'm planning on GP Columbus even if the hosting company has had crap reviews in the past. Normally I'd spend 100% of my time doing legacy and not think twice about limited side events...but this seems like it could be a lot of fun.

[MaximumC]

Wizards School from the homelands land cycle also fits in there....


Naturally. Everyone knows that there is high demand for Castle Sengir foils ever since Eldrazi broke out at the Pro Tour.

[Barook]

If you wanna believe the guy that leaked Eternal Masters info several weeks ago (and at this point I don't see why you wouldn't), this set will include:
* Show and Tell
* Rishadan Port
* Stoneforge Mystic
* Lotus Petal
* Swords to Plowshares
* enemy fetches (Scalding Tarn, etc.)
Those are all educated guesses. I'm unter the impression that it's going to be a bit like the unpowered Legacy cube on MTGO, expect with more shitty cards.

It's probably going more to be like MM2 and have some high value mythic rares, with the rest being Limited filler crap. I hope I'm wrong, though.

[kirkusjones]

I really, really hope they reprint dark ritual with the judge promo art. That and imperial recruiter would make my day. While I'm speculating, glimpse of nature would be cool too.

Judge dark rit for reference:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/jr/38.jpg

[bruizar]

Mana Drain, Tarmogoyf, Mishra's Factory, Sensei's Divining Top, Karakas

[Quasim0ff]

I'm quite happy, that they decided to keep the original quote on wasteland.
I always found that to be one of the best picked lines on any card, alongside the classic "Greatness, at any cost" on Bob.

[Ephemeron]

Just give me Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix and I'll be happy (please don't change the art on either tho).

[theBloody]

Very nice. Flusterstorm at rare please.

[hymnyou]

This is great. The set will do well and we will see it again, prob with a GP stapled to it 2018.
Can anyone confirm if this is reprint only or are we going to see some new eternal cards?
I can't wait to play sealed with my friends for ante.

[Barook]

This is great. The set will do well and we will see it again, prob with a GP stapled to it 2018.
Can anyone confirm if this is reprint only or are we going to see some new eternal cards?
I can't wait to play sealed with my friends for ante.
It's been confirmed to be reprint only. Print run is Modern Masters size (not confirmed if MMA or MM2-sized).

[Meekrab]

Just give me Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix and I'll be happy (please don't change the art on either tho).
I don't get it... two relatively low-$ cards? Strix also could see a Modern-legal reprint at some point.

[big_ticket]

the art on the fow..yeezy..

It will not contain cards from the Reserved List, but it will feature many exciting Eternal staples..time to sell those blood moons and damnation's for sure

[Quasim0ff]

I don't get it... two relatively low-$ cards? Strix also could see a Modern-legal reprint at some point.

both cards are too good for modern, I'm sure

Also, I think he want them as foil:p

[Lord Seth]

both cards are too good for modern, I'm sure

Also, I think he want them as foil:pThey'd be fine in Modern, though Shardless Agent would essentially guarantee that Ancestral Vision never gets unbanned. WOTC presumably considers them too good for Standard, though (even though they'll continually print creatures in Standard that are as good if not better than them).

[GrimoirePath]

Worth it to gamble on a box?

[Ephemeron]

^^^

If you're gonna crack it with some friends and draft it to get some entertainment, then yeah get a box. If you're trying to make money off the box or look for anything specific, it obviously depends on what the finalized list looks like, but it's almost always poor value to buy a box at retail and sell the cards.


both cards are too good for modern, I'm sure

Also, I think he want them as foil:p

This guy knows what's up.

I'd love to see Strix in modern though, I think it would be good but not warping, which is exactly what a deck like Grixis needs at this point

[GrimoirePath]

^^^

If you're gonna crack it with some friends and draft it to get some entertainment, then yeah get a box. If you're trying to make money off the box or look for anything specific, it obviously depends on what the finalized list looks like, but it's almost always poor value to buy a box at retail and sell the cards.



This guy knows what's up.

I'd love to see Strix in modern though, I think it would be good but not warping, which is exactly what a deck like Grixis needs at this point

Yeah, not for anything specific and of course, the set list is important, but this is a set that has people from across the formats interested.

[jrsthethird]

EDIT: This actually reminded me about one of the hilarious consequences of the list; we cannot have certain vanilla creatures ever again. Roc of Kher Ridges means we will never see vanilla 3/3 Bird for 3R ever again. I wonder how often this comes up in design?

I'm sure it comes up. 3/3 Flying for 4 isn't exactly in Red's color pie anyway. They could flavor it as a baby Dragon, but a Hill Giant with pure upside seems too good for Limited (and fucking terrible at Rare)

More interestingly, that explains why White doesn't get 2/2 Flying, First Strike for 1WW. (Thunder Spirit)


I'm not sure about the P3K cards, they seem to usually reprint them as Judge foils. Most of them don't really see play except in Commander. If they reprint all the high value cards, there won't have any left for the future. I think a Mana Drain reprint would be more exciting than a Capture of Jingzhou one.

We'll probably see many Modern banned cards reprinted like Dark Depths.

There aren't many avenues to reprint P3K cards, so anytime a set like this comes up, it's worth noting. They won't print them all, but surely 2 or 3 of those mentioned will get the reprint.

There's pretty much Conspiracy and Eternal Masters for full-set releases, and Judge Promo, FTV, and Commander's Arsenal for limited runs. The latter will never do much to stymie the prices, but a full-set reprint can bring some cards like Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, and Capture down to earth.

[jrsthethird]

From the original info leak source (via Quiet Speculation forums, probably reddit or something prior to that):


Cards I know are in the set : Port, Stoneforge.
Cards I know via verbal communication : Zen fetches, Mother of runes, Lotus Petal, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, a piece of the elf deck, Sneak and/or Show, Judgement wishes.

[Mr.C]

I don't think this will do anything to the popularity of Legacy, unfortunately. People that were unwilling to spend $1000 on a set of duals will still be unwilling to spend $1000 (or more, at this point) on a set of duals.

[Echelon]

I so hope we're getting foil Veteran Explorers.

My dreams are small and insignificant.

[Barook]

Take this rumor as you will, but apperently, there is a full list of EMA already floating around the internet:

https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status/699417870850084864

[sjmcc13]

Naturally. Everyone knows that there is high demand for Castle Sengir foils ever since Eldrazi broke out at the Pro Tour.

You do realize that this set is likely to be at least 60% EDH filler and useless chaff. Just look at how much of VMA is not Vintage or Legacy playable. Same for Tempest Remastered.

Though my money would be on Wirewood Lodge to support an elf theme.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

This is going to be a complete shitshow. Eternal Masters is not going to make the format more accessible in any meaningful way and it will suffer from all the same problems as Modern Masters did.

Quite frankly, limited print-run booster packs are an ineffective way of lowering the prices on cards for the playerbase at large. If they go hogwild on reprints, then the EV of a box/case will be so high that the product is quickly snatched up by dealers and speculators for resale. That means they can only make the EV so high and there is a cap on how much value they can reprint. Given that Eternal Masters has the same MSRP of Modern Masters 2015, expect more bulk jank in your lottery tick...I mean booster packs. There's no other way to balance the EV when three-figure reprints are at hand in a limited print run.

It's essentially an extremely expensive lottery that only runs for a limited time — not what you want to suppress prices. But that's not the only reason this will be a scheissefest. See, Modern Masters may have lowered the prices on reprinted staples somewhat, but the price of Modern as a whole increased ~25% as a result (per SaffronOlive @ MTGGoldfish). What happened was that demand for the format, as a whole, increased as a result of the Masters set, driving up the prices of other staples that didn't see a reprint. Players and speculators both knew what cards weren't going to see print for a few years time and gobbled them up.

But at least the possibility of future reprints was on the horizon. In Legacy, we're saddled with the Reserve List, a stupid promise Wizards has stubbornly stuck with, that lists out a bunch of format-critical cards that will "never" be reprinted. Already the buyout brigade is at work, with all Reserve List staples seeing sharp gains in the past hours. I don't think this is too smart in the long-run, for a lot of reasons, but that's are neither here nor there. What matters is that any downward pressure this set could have on the monetary barrier to entry to Legacy has effectively been canceled out (or even completely outweighed) before the set has even been spoiled*.

And with that come the rumors and clamoring for "No-Reserve-List-Legacy" which I'm certain most here will agree is a steaming pile compared to the format we know and love...err like...uhh....don't completely hate. The banning of all Reserve List cards from Legacy would certainly be a "sell-out" moment for me; I like my shitty pet decks much more than I enjoy keeping hundreds of dollars tied up in cardboard to cast Derpstorm, Derper of Secrets, Derp and Tell, or Derprite Shaman.

But no matter what I, or anyone else here thinks, Wizards is probably going to make a killing on this — lotteries are, sadly, quite popular.


*Assuming the @Vendorleak guy is full of it and some lucky vendors don't have early access to the lists.

Edit: Wrong Twatter handle. I blame Derp and Tell's stupidity overcoming me.

[Varal]

Take this rumor as you will, but apperently, there is a full list of EMA already floating around the internet:

https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status/699417870850084864

If you had a list that would let you make a ton of money but are unwilling to use itand prefer to sell it to other people, it would look a lot like a scam. Proving you're not scamming would probably put your position, or your source, in jeopardy.


You do realize that this set is likely to be at least 60% EDH filler and useless chaff. Just look at how much of VMA is not Vintage or Legacy playable. Same for Tempest Remastered.

Though my money would be on Wirewood Lodge to support an elf theme.

MTGO is different because there is hundreds of cards, mostly from old sets, that were never implemented online because their set was never released on the platform. A crappy reprint might be more desirable if it's the first one. EDH/Casual is just as important, if not more, as Legacy and Modern to Wizards.

[twndomn]

But no matter what I, or anyone else here thinks, Wizards is probably going to make a killing on this — lotteries are, sadly, quite popular.

*Assuming the @Vendorleak guy is full of it and some lucky vendors don't have early access to the lists.

Edit: Wrong Twatter handle. I blame Derp and Tell's stupidity overcoming me.

Of course Wizards will and want to make a killing, WotC is a business, not charity, and that's the whole point of Eternal Master. Why do you think Wizards would actually care about the secondary market, or the Legacy players' base whatsoever? Wizards cares about one thing and one thing only: Return on Investment. Pro Tour is a marketing event, Magic Professionals are vessels much like athletes are vessels to sell more sneakers.

[Spam]

I'll hold my horses for the moment, this is probably going to be like Modern masters and co.
Super hig prices for some great cards and lots of crap. Also, seeing force and wasteland as first pics reminded me about From the vault 20. And that ended so well.
Sadly, as always, I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt, hoping in a balanced product.

[Havrekjex]

It's been confirmed to be reprint only. Print run is Modern Masters size (not confirmed if MMA or MM2-sized).From the Wizards Play Network Eternal Masters page, the guaranteed supply for stores is as follows:

2–3 cases for WPN Core level stores
3–6 cases for WPN Advanced level stores
6–12 cases for WPN Advanced Plus level stores
Note that this is less than Modern Masters 2015, which had 2-3 cases, 5-6 cases, and 9-12 cases for the respective levels.

Source (http://wpn.wizards.com/en/products/eternal-masters) source (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/eternal-masters-announced)

So I guess somewhat smaller than MM15, but probably bigger than the first MM, I think? MM15 can still be bought, but that probably has more to do with the crap EV than the print run.

Also worth noting is this quote from the wpn page: "It's designed to offer an extraordinary draft experience, plus enhance your players' Vintage, Legacy, and Modern decks."


Also i'm so fucking glad they didn't shoehorned jace into the FoW art.OH GOD YES UGH! I didn`t even think of that, but yeah, me too a thousand times over. If asked to guess before seeing the card, I`d go 80% on fucking Jace. Instead we get this beautiful, badass neutral-flavoured art. Well done for once.


I'll hold my horses for the moment, this is probably going to be like Modern masters and co.
Super hig prices for some great cards and lots of crap.Yup. There`s absolutely no reason to expect this to be a complete list of needed reprints, they are stingy with their reprints and only reprint just enough good stuff to sell the set.

[Mr Miagi]

Shit, I've heard that Maro has confirmed on his blog that new format is coming. Is there actaully some truth in that? Can somebody with tha internetz skillz confirm this?

[Havrekjex]

Shit, I've heard that Maro has confirmed on his blog that new format is coming. Is there actaully some truth in that? Can somebody less lazy than me Google it so I won`t have to?It`s a load of bullshit. Link here. (http://imgur.com/pR23tm1) Someone asked if it was a "if" or "when" whether theree would be a new constructed format (ever), and he replied "when". So at some point in the history of Magic: the Gathering, a new constructed format will appear. That is all that has ever been confirmed.

This whole idea of a new "Eternal" format is just people on the internet turning some baseless speculation into rumor into something that could possibly happen into something that will definitely absolutely happen. Remember about a month ago, when there was absolutely no way that SFM could possibly not be unbanned in Modern? That.

[wizard_of_gore]

Shit, I've heard that Maro has confirmed on his blog that new format is coming. Is there actaully some truth in that? Can somebody with tha internetz skillz confirm this?

Just rumors, for now

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/no-reserved-list-legacy

[keys]

Shit, I've heard that Maro has confirmed on his blog that new format is coming. Is there actaully some truth in that? Can somebody with tha internetz skillz confirm this?

You could check his blog.

[Bobmans]

Just rumors, for now

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/no-reserved-list-legacy
Rumors, no. This is someone mumbling about a random theory. He is suggesting to remove the cards on the reserved list from the format. This is air.

[wizard_of_gore]

Rumors, no. This is someone mumbling about a random theory. He is suggesting to remove the cards on the reserved list from the format. This is air.

Yes, i know, but in discussion bellow are some discussion about making possible new eternal format independent from legacy or modern.

[Havrekjex]

Yes, i know, but in discussion bellow are some discussion about making possible new eternal format independent from legacy or modern.It`s all hypothetical. They`re discussing a "what if". There are currently zero reasons to believe that WotC will introduce or establish such a format, and zero actual rumors floating around that they will.

[aluisiocsantos]

Terese Nielsen <3

[iamajellydonut]

I'm quite happy, that they decided to keep the original quote on wasteland.
I always found that to be one of the best picked lines on any card

Agreed. I have a Word document at work and Word document at home of just neato quotes that I come across. Wasteland managed to make it onto both somehow.

[shocked439]

Blue: Merfolk
White: Death and Taxes
Black: Pox
Red: Goblins or Burn
Green: Elves

Blue-White: Miracles
Blue-Black: Storm or Reanimator
Blue-Red: Delver
Blue-Green: Shardless
White-Black: Zombardment/Tokens?
White-Red: uh... Burn?
White-Green: Maverick
Black-Red: more... burn?
Black-Green: Nic Fit
Red-Green: Belcher


I think it will be focused on two color pairs like most sets.

UW-Merfolk (True Name nemesis, lord of Atlantis, cursecatcher, some white fish uses the control elements)
UB-Storm agreed
UR-Counter burn I don't think flip cards get printed here it's possible that goblin guide and monastery swift spear eidolon chain lightning and some other aggressive red blue cards make a deck here.
UG-Shardless WB-Death and taxes/Dead guy ale thalia and mother of runes inquisition etc.
WR-Humans fits with death and taxes but with a agro spin thalia and mother of runes fit here as well
BR-Goblins
BG-Elves - Deathrite shaman, nettle sentinel imperious perfect (I know it's not played but it's powerful in limited) maybe some green tutor effects
RG- Stompy this is where the dumb rares no one wants to open outside of an event will be. Simian spirit guide as ramp and a bunch of dumb big things no one really wants. There might be a naya zoo element with nacatl and the like.

Printing merfolk and goblins gives two decks that can use an aether vial which could fit the bill as a modern card available in the set. I could also see berserk getting a reprint here it could fit into the stompy deck

Has anyone considered them printing a strictly better dual land? Like what if it were a Tri land that tapped for colorless and the other two colors (like a wasted volcanic island <>,U,R) but was still fetchable.

[Rayek]

Basically, as someone who offloaded their collection in 2011 and kept the decks they had, I don't even really care what's in this set, even the duds I'd be happy to add to a collection.

If anything, this saves a lot of time for someone like me who needed Vintage/Legacy staples on-hand.

This is going to increase the player bases of both formats by, like, a lot. Especially if this becomes a biennial set. Glad Wizards is going to make a shit ton of money off of Vintage and Legacy, as far as I can tell, this is the first product specifically designed with those two formats in mind. If it's a success (which it obviously is going to be), I think people will definitely be hounding them even more than they are now about the RL...

[Dice_Box]

Edit:
Fake list. Never mind.

[Bosque]

This is going to increase the player bases of both formats by, like, a lot. Especially if this becomes a biennial set. Glad Wizards is going to make a shit ton of money off of Vintage and Legacy, as far as I can tell, this is the first product specifically designed with those two formats in mind. If it's a success (which it obviously is going to be), I think people will definitely be hounding them even more than they are now about the RL...

This. I think large interest in these formats expressed through WOTC making money off of them are the most likely routes to the eventual removal of the reserved list.

[apple713]

This. I think large interest in these formats expressed through WOTC making money off of them are the most likely routes to the eventual removal of the reserved list.

I'm sure there is a cost benefit analysis that they've done. Once the expected income exceeds the likely class action lawsuit following the removal of the reserve list it'll happen. Hasbro is a business and its all about dollars and cents. Regardless of employee / manager sentiments they all answer to a board of directors that demand profits.

[Bobmans]

Someone gave me this link;
http://m.imgur.com/a/sSKGY

List of cards in EM. Not sure if it is real or not.

[Koby]

Someone gave me this link;
http://m.imgur.com/a/sSKGY

List of cards in EM. Not sure if it is real or not.

...
Cursed Scroll is on the RL. This list is fake.

[cab0747]

Someone gave me this link;
http://m.imgur.com/a/sSKGY

List of cards in EM. Not sure if it is real or not.

Am I an idiot? I don't see any there here at all except for 'good cards I hope get reprinted'.

This list seems a little fishy to me.

Edit: spelling

[Bobmans]

...
Cursed Scroll is on the RL. This list is fake.
I do not consider the list fake just for the assumption that the RL will or will not be maintained.

Regardless, i don't think this list is real either.

[Koby]

I do not consider the list fake just for the assumption that the RL will or will not be maintained.

Regardless, i don't think this list is real either.

Then I have else nothing to offer you, as reason & logic aren't sufficient.

[Stuart]

I'm sure there is a cost benefit analysis that they've done. Once the expected income exceeds the likely class action lawsuit following the removal of the reserve list it'll happen. Hasbro is a business and its all about dollars and cents. Regardless of employee / manager sentiments they all answer to a board of directors that demand profits.

Not to send us too far down the RL rabbit hole, but who would even be involved in a class action lawsuit? I assume Wizards has a good relationship with the biggest retailers (like SCG); if they ever do away with the RL, they'll give them a heads up so they can shift their stock before reprints effect prices, and therefore preserve that relationship. And if they managed to handle that, who else would sue them? Small shops and individual collectors? Those guys would probably have a hard time proving they only bought RL stuff on the assumption it would never be reprinted . . .

Likewise, this cost-benefit stuff isn't totally cut and dry. Corporate legal departments don't always just say "no" to risk; it kind of depends on the general counsel and culture they've got in their legal dept. A more enlightened general counsel would probably advise WotC/Hasbro that abolishing the RL is risky, but there are ways of doing it that mitigate risk while, obviously, making a lot of player good-will and revenue. The fact that Eternal Masters just happened is some indication that WotC isn't totally risk averse.

[nevilshute]

I do not consider the list fake just for the assumption that the RL will or will not be maintained.

Regardless, i don't think this list is real either.

They said in the official announcement - on their website that no reserve list cards will be reprinted.

[Bobmans]

They said in the official announcement - on their website that no reserve list cards will be reprinted.
This is what i was looking for Koby, facts.

[Reagens]

I'm sure there is a cost benefit analysis that they've done. Once the expected income exceeds the likely class action lawsuit following the removal of the reserve list it'll happen. Hasbro is a business and its all about dollars and cents. Regardless of employee / manager sentiments they all answer to a board of directors that demand profits.

Don't think so.
The cost would be impossible to calculate and would not only stem from lawsuits but also players/traders giving up on Magic because of the liability in having an extensive magic collection. If tommorow they would reprint moxen, lotus and what not what would stop them from printing tarmogoyf as a rare in a core set?
Hasbro would have undermined the credibility of their game and that credibility is the foremost reason why the reserved list was created in the first place.

[Koby]

This is what i was looking for Koby, facts.

See Opening Post. The one with the official announcement.

[Bobmans]

See Opening Post. The one with the official announcement.
You are right. I am a cunt.

[maharis]

I honestly don't get Wizards' motivation to release this set. It's one thing to find an outlet to reprint Legacy cards on a high level -- Conspiracy did a great job of this, IMO, not only reprinting Stifle, Deed, and Exploration, but also adding Dack and Council's Judgment, and some other smaller-dollar reprints like Brainstorm, Fires and IGG.

But "eternal masters" carries a lot of baggage along with it. Modern Masters, and Vintage Masters online, were pretty explicit about their goal to increase the amount of playable cards to support a format. But they're reiterating their support of the RL with every new slice of information about this set. So it's going to be impossible to support Legacy and Vintage on the level that such a set implies. I could see if this set was geared toward the EDH/casual crowd.... but is there a big demand from casual players for FOW and Wasteland?

Other than the pure craven pursuit of money, I don't understand why Wizards wants to even draw attention to formats with such strong card availability headwinds. It seems like it can only make its notoriously cranky customers even more mad. "I opened this Force in my $10 pack and I need to spend another $2000 to play it!"

Unless they have a plan to fix the mana bottleneck in eternal -- something coming in SOI block or another supplemental set. Or some sort of reserved list gymnastics where they take the duals off but concrete the rest -- "don't ever ask us again, this is what you're getting"

[Finn]

I honestly don't get Wizards' motivation to release this set...Other than the pure craven pursuit of money...You are good, man. Carry on.

I don't mean the sparse comment as a dispersion upon you or even Wizards. There just does not need to be anything more.

[Koby]

You are good, man. Carry on.

I don't mean the sparse comment as a dispersion upon you or even Wizards. There just does not need to be anything more.

Yep, we could discuss and debate the intents for the set until the format is entirely blue decks. Ultimately, Wizards sees an opportunity to capitalize on the excitement for Eternal formats (between EDH and Cube, and Vintage revival and the size of Legacy GPs as data points). This is just good(ish) timing on their part to tap into the market and withdraw a few buckeroos while investing minimal design resources from MaRo's whacky filing cabinet. Classic example of a business decision that makes everyone happy for a low cost to the producer.

Let's be perfectly clear too:
This is a good reprint set. It's not the BEST reprint set, but it's something. It delivers in ways that Battle for Scars of Mirrodin Returns can never hope to.

Reprints are good.
Reserve List is bad.
Reserve List cannot be modified.
Therefore, this is about as good as we can get for the short term.

[Cartesian]

Reprints are good.
Reserve List is bad.
Reserve List cannot be modified.
Therefore, this is about as good as we can get for the short term.
I agree with all of that, except the bold.
The RL has been modified at least twice since 1996, policies have changed, and cards have even been taken off the list.

[Koby]

I agree with all of that, except the bold.
The RL has been modified at least twice since 1996, policies have changed, and cards have even been taken off the list.

Correct. I implied "in a manner that would provide net benefit to players"

[twndomn]

Reprints are good.
Reserve List is bad.
Reserve List cannot be modified.


That's what they said when Supreme Court made another ridiculous ruling, and then look at what happened to that one judge. Now, it'll be different going forward.

That's right, if you get rid of Maro, the policy can be over-written.

[Star|Scream]

I'm really confused. For years people have been saying "Even though they can't reprint RL cards the least they could do is FOW & Wasteland, etc." Now they are doing that and people are still upset?

[phonics]

I'm really confused. For years people have been saying "Even though they can't reprint RL cards the least they could do is FOW & Wasteland, etc." Now they are doing that and people are still upset?

Honestly, considering how MM and MM2 effected prices (they didn't), and it looks like they are following the same format, I predict that some of the ~30-40$ cards in it will get cheaper, wasteland may be like 10$ cheaper but there wont be any significant change. Since it is going to be a draft format first and reprints second, there will undoubtedly be many cards left out. This combined with speculators who are going to buy out everything, I don't expect anything from this other than a fun draft format maybe. The only way to effectively drop prices that we have seen so far is to print as a rare in an actual block set like Thoughtseize and the fetches.

[Lemnear]

I'm really confused. For years people have been saying "Even though they can't reprint RL cards the least they could do is FOW & Wasteland, etc." Now they are doing that and people are still upset?

Yeah, people wanted FoW, Wasteland and other cards reprinted A DECADE AGO to fight the ridiculous prices driving away potential players and Legacy going the way of Vintage suffering from card scarcity, but printing this set NOW is far too late to save Legacy long-term especially as they STILL have not touched the RL nonsense

[H]

I'm really confused. For years people have been saying "Even though they can't reprint RL cards the least they could do is FOW & Wasteland, etc." Now they are doing that and people are still upset?

I don't see why you are confused though. That is literally the most predictable thing in the history of things.

[ReAnimator]

That's right, if you get rid of Maro, the policy can be over-written.

Doesn't Maro and pretty much all of R&D hate the RL, and have stated so publicly? Pretty sure it's the lawyers and suits that want it stuck too.

Like i get the Maro hate but this seems just really off base.

[Lemnear]

Doesn't Maro and pretty much all of R&D hate the RL, and have stated so publicly? Pretty sure it's the lawyers and suits that want it stuck too.

Like i get the Maro hate but this seems just really off base.

If he'd care they'd slap an expire date onto the list which is legally fine

[out51d3r]

If he'd care they'd slap an expire date onto the list which is legally fine

That is a reasonable way to solve the problem.


I find it pretty unlikely that the reserve list will continue the way it is now. It's a self imposed barrier between WotC and profit from Legacy/Vintage. Now that they are making a real push to make money from those formats, I can't see that barrier standing for much longer.

[Bosque]

Yeah, I really see this as a test case. If in fact they can make money from us, I would think the chances of RL shifts to facilitate making additional money from us get much higher.

[Fox]

I don't understand this is a draft set. There is a reason some amazing constructed cards were Uncommon [FoW and Wasteland] - they had an Uncommon effect on a draft. Now they weren't really focused on draft back in Alliances, and here in EM they dealt with FoW correctly: they used Mythic Slot for Mythic (constructed) Uncommons. I'm really confused as to why Wizards thinks Wasteland will have a Rare effect on the draft format [congrats on having wasteland vs an opponent with 12-15 basics in a 40 card deck].

I understand you have to have some really trashy mythics when you guarantee 3 in a box, b/c if you don't people buy it up and this set is never drafted...but, let's put the constructed pillars of the format [which are terrible in limited] in non-rare slots. You can even reprint them as uncommons that are in actuality rarer than mythics.

Two more observations: please give us back old borders and templating for this set (this'll never happen) and please package these in more tamper-proof packages than the glue gun + cardboard MM packs.

[jrsthethird]

If he'd care they'd slap an expire date onto the list which is legally fine

He has no say.


Yeah, I really see this as a test case. If in fact they can make money from us, I would think the chances of RL shifts to facilitate making additional money from us get much higher.

This is the one thing that has a sliver of a chance of changing this. Public outcry combined with record sales of Eternal product could convince Hasbro to overturn it.


Two more observations: please give us back old borders and templating for this set (this'll never happen) and please package these in more tamper-proof packages than the glue gun + cardboard MM packs.

They stated the packaging will not be recyclable (i.e. cardboard MM crap).

This reminds me, with the new hologram, we'll have Legacy/Vintage value cards that are a lot harder to fake.

[Lord Seth]

From the Wizards Play Network Eternal Masters page, the guaranteed supply for stores is as follows:

2–3 cases for WPN Core level stores
3–6 cases for WPN Advanced level stores
6–12 cases for WPN Advanced Plus level stores
Note that this is less than Modern Masters 2015, which had 2-3 cases, 5-6 cases, and 9-12 cases for the respective levels.

Source (http://wpn.wizards.com/en/products/eternal-masters) source (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/eternal-masters-announced)

So I guess somewhat smaller than MM15, but probably bigger than the first MM, I think? MM15 can still be bought, but that probably has more to do with the crap EV than the print run.Is case another word for box or are there multiple boxes in a case?

[Quasim0ff]

Is case another word for box or are there multiple boxes in a case?

6 boxes per case

[Koby]

Is case another word for box or are there multiple boxes in a case?

15 cards per booster pack.
24 booster packs per booster box.
4 boxes per case.

This will be identical to the distribution of MMA and MM2 in terms of the packaging, except using foil wrappers instead of cardboard.

[davelin]

I don't see why you are confused though. That is literally the most predictable thing in the history of things.

This. Rosewater's article on the 20 things that shaped the game we know today and players' responses it pretty telling.

60-card decks and 4-per-card limits - "Why is Wizards trying to tell me how many cards I can play with???"

Banned and Restricted list - "Why is Wizards trying to tell me which cards I can play with???"

Creation of Type 2 - See above

Removal of ante cards - "Why is Wizards catering to small kids and parents???"

Removal of damage on the stack and mana burn - "Why is Wizards dumbing down this game???"

Chronicles - "Wizards is trying to make my collection worthless!!!"

Reserve List - "Wizards is trying to make this game too expensive!!!"

[Warden]

@maharis: I think you are right on the money when you openly ask about wizards' motivation. I also think you're correct about Conspiracy doing a solid job bringing back [insert useful cards also playing in older formats].

I'm gonna get blown up for saying this, but I think a lot of people are buying way too much into into the hype. I'm fully on the cynical side. I'm rooting for a good set, but not counting on it being the greatest release ever. Something is fishy, but the clues add up when you think about WotC's moves:

My baseless speculation
1. GP NJ shocked WotC. People thoroughly enjoy eternal formats. But how do you make money off Eternal? You need products. You also need to tame the secondary market to a degree.

2. Eternal Masters is "phase 2" of a much greater "reprint older cards for profit" gameplan. They successfully tested the proverbial waters with Modern Masters. Twice. They saw how the market reacted. They are giving everyone a handful of older and more powerful cards. WotC is also in bed with SCG and the other major firms that provide MTG products. They can't piss off collectors and major vendors with straight up reprinting all the cards we want, so this item is in many ways an agreement for all sellers to make money. I'm also sure WotC analyzed the impact MM1 and MM2 had on consumers. While many cards went down in price, Goyf only went up.

3. I still believe WotC is planning to do a legitimate cube stand-alone product. This may be what [something Masters] evolves into. Alternatively, an annual [something Masters] that does not impact the B/R of Modern will could also see the light of day. WotC needs you to buy packs. Players love reprints of older solid cards. An eventual Cube or annual Masters product is a win-win that sells like hotcakes.

4. Drafting EM1 will be very expensive. Far beyond MSRP. *raises glass* Here's to hoping the cost of drafting EM1 is under $60/person. It is especially troubling to hear the print runs of this product will be intentionally low.

5. The pool of commons and uncommons will not be as strong as we'd all hope. There will obviously be chaff in this set. It would be great to see bstorm, ponder, swords, chain, bolt, hymn, therapy, mongoose, etc...but we need to lower our expectations. For every potential cabal therapy in this set, you're going to have bottle gnomes and moment's peace.

6. WotC is making Eternal Masters because it is pressured by competition. I really believe the only reason we're seeing this product come to life is due to proxies and alternative competitive games. Proxies are a much bigger deal than forum members believe. That anti-theft sticker isn't doing enough. Proxies are also getting better in quality as years go by. If WotC is looking to lay down serious "no proxies at stores/events", they need to reprint cards for players in some capacity. I also think other CCGs, LCGs, board games, and computer games are cutting into WotC's market-share of nerds. Players who once told me about other games pressuring WotC were probably correct.

*I would love to be loud wrong. But I look at how the market is already reacting to just the announcement of this product and it's quite sickening IMO.

[Mr.C]

As I've been saying for a while, either Wizards reprints duals or the Chinese will.

With reserved list cards skyrocketing, you can bet demand for counterfeits will increase.

I believe, though, that we will have 99% counterfeits before Wizards does away with the RL.

[phonics]

As I've been saying for a while, either Wizards reprints duals or the Chinese will.

With reserved list cards skyrocketing, you can bet demand for counterfeits will increase.

I believe, though, that we will have 99% counterfeits before Wizards does away with the RL.

Newer proxies are practically indistinguishable already, short of ripping the cards to look at the core.

[Havrekjex]

Newer proxies are practically indistinguishable already, short of ripping the cards to look at the core.Just to check, since I haven`t seen any really good ones - do they have the right print pattern, text printed without the dot pattern, do they pass the light test etc? I can feel the paranoia starting to set in.

[bruizar]

I'm at the point where I think chinese copies are doing the game a service by combatting the idiotic price spikes. I didn't want to buy LEDs but i knew I had to buy them because otherwise I'll never do it anymore. I have zero need for LEDs at the moment, but these stupid price spikes are forcing me to buy immediately for the old price to be able to play a range of decks and build my collection. I'm not buying to sell, just so that I have the freedom to select a deck and not be priced out of building a collection.

[Havrekjex]

I'm at the point where I think chinese copies are doing the game a service by combatting the idiotic price spikes. I didn't want to buy LEDs but i knew I had to buy them because otherwise I'll never do it anymore. I have zero need for LEDs at the moment, but these stupid price spikes are forcing me to buy immediately for the old price to be able to play a range of decks and build my collection. I'm not buying to sell, just so that I have the freedom to select a deck and not be priced out of building a collection.I feel this as well. When stuff like this happens and you can easily predict a price spike in the next few days, it`s only sensible to buy anything you might use in the future, because you don`t want to pay 1.5x the price next month, and worst case scenario is that you sell it at a profit or break even. I`m sitting here trying to figure out if I`ll ever want to play some Loam variant that I need Mox Diamonds for, because I can still find it at the old price, but not for long.

Like when Birthing Pod got banned, I didn`t have any immediate plans on playing Liliana of the Veil, but it`s a card that I like and it goes in a lot of archetypes that I`m drawn to. When I saw the B&R announcement, I knew that it was now or never, so I jumped on it. In a matter of days she went from $60 to $90. It`s just too predictable sometimes.

What`s sad is that this behaviour, while nothing but common sense on a personal financial level, is a huge contribution to the spikes that we`re trying to buy around. Prices spike because we are buying because prices spike. No wonder prices get out of hand.

[bruizar]

I feel this as well. When stuff like this happens and you can easily predict a price spike in the next few days, it`s only sensible to buy anything you might use in the future, because you don`t want to pay 1.5x the price next month, and worst case scenario is that you sell it at a profit or break even. I`m sitting here trying to figure out if I`ll ever want to play some Loam variant that I need Mox Diamonds for, because I can still find it at the old price, but not for long.

Like when Birthing Pod got banned, I didn`t have any immediate plans on playing Liliana of the Veil, but it`s a card that I like and it goes in a lot of archetypes that I`m drawn to. When I saw the B&R announcement, I knew that it was now or never, so I jumped on it. In a matter of days she went from $60 to $90. It`s just too predictable sometimes.

What`s sad is that this behaviour, while nothing but common sense on a personal financial level, is a huge contribution to the spikes that we`re trying to buy around. Prices spike because we are buying because prices spike. No wonder prices get out of hand.

This is absolutely true. They're able to liquidate staples at a much faster rate due to this now or never effect. I can tell you it's taking a substantial bite of my income and I don't feel happy about it because, although I like the cards I want to prioritize purchasing other cards first. You know, the stuff I need for decks now. WOTC should just give you points that you can trade in for attendance/tournament performance that you can spend on purchasing singles from them directly. This way you can't just give them money, so the stores have no say in it, but you can still circumvent the secondary market. This way Wizards also increases the activity of paper events and will be able to profit from the secondary market as well (I'd rather give to WOTC or a local shop than some online speculator).

[Rayek]

I really think that the only way for them to truly combat counterfeits is to reprint power/duals. They've tried (and I know they apologized and reversed course with this, but I see this as a genuine attempt) to stop proxies altogether and faced huge criticism. Their attempts at moving Vintage to MTGO isn't really working for varied and numerous reasons. They reprint highly valuable cards on a near-regular basis now (MM), and it's had the effect that one would expect, Modern is flourishing, prices become more stable, but not without value to collectors.

Who will get pissed of they do? People with enough extra cash to just own 4-10 playsets of power or Library or Workshop (or Force... they're already pissed). Honestly I care so little about the plight of people who use cardboard in binders as a stock portfolio. There's a FB Vintage group, and 1 out of every 4 people commenting on EM said they got rid of absolutely everything that *might* have been printed in EM. One person had something like 40 FoW they shifted when they heard of the *possibility* they'd be reprinting Force. Personally? I have playsets of RL cards. I take absolutely no joy in seeing Mox Diamond double in price, even though I have a few extras. I'm not using my two LED in anything, and I don't think it being up to $150 since EM's announcement is a good thing. This is the difference between players and collectors, I place more value on the game itself than on the cards, The game gets worse when people can't afford to play it.

I'm with folks in that I don't think this thread should become about the RL, but so often this issue comes up (twice in the last few months, even) that I personally think it has to become something we need to constructively discuss, specifically about tactics we can employ to end it. Like I mentioned, the more they try to make money off eternal formats, the more players will be sucked in to a world where only half of their deck is accessible, and the other half is far beyond reasonable to attain.

I personally don't think they're edging against the RL, or have any plans to remove it. We should figure out what to do, especially once EM hits and sells out, and Wizards sees that more people actually prefer Vintage and Legacy (which I think is definitely true, when card prices aren't a factor).

[Raystar]

I really think that the only way for them to truly combat counterfeits is to reprint power/duals. They've tried (and I know they apologized and reversed course with this, but I see this as a genuine attempt) to stop proxies altogether and faced huge criticism. Their attempts at moving Vintage to MTGO isn't really working for varied and numerous reasons. They reprint highly valuable cards on a near-regular basis now (MM), and it's had the effect that one would expect, Modern is flourishing, prices become more stable, but not without value to collectors.

Who will get pissed of they do? People with enough extra cash to just own 4-10 playsets of power or Library or Workshop (or Force... they're already pissed). Honestly I care so little about the plight of people who use cardboard in binders as a stock portfolio. There's a FB Vintage group, and 1 out of every 4 people commenting on EM said they got rid of absolutely everything that *might* have been printed in EM. One person had something like 40 FoW they shifted when they heard of the *possibility* they'd be reprinting Force. Personally? I have playsets of RL cards. I take absolutely no joy in seeing Mox Diamond double in price, even though I have a few extras. I'm not using my two LED in anything, and I don't think it being up to $150 since EM's announcement is a good thing. This is the difference between players and collectors, I place more value on the game itself than on the cards, The game gets worse when people can't afford to play it.

I'm with folks in that I don't think this thread should become about the RL, but so often this issue comes up (twice in the last few months, even) that I personally think it has to become something we need to constructively discuss, specifically about tactics we can employ to end it. Like I mentioned, the more they try to make money off eternal formats, the more players will be sucked in to a world where only half of their deck is accessible, and the other half is far beyond reasonable to attain.

I personally don't think they're edging against the RL, or have any plans to remove it. We should figure out what to do, especially once EM hits and sells out, and Wizards sees that more people actually prefer Vintage and Legacy (which I think is definitely true, when card prices aren't a factor).

Very good post. I agree on pretty much everything.

I would only add that sooner or later WotC (Hasbro) will probably feel the financial pressure of strong competition to the point of having to start the "management of decline". At that point the removal of the RL might become their secret weapon for mid-term revival.

[Rayek]

Very good post. I agree on pretty much everything.

I would only add that sooner or later WotC (Hasbro) will probably feel the financial pressure of strong competition to the point of having to start the "management of decline". At that point the removal of the RL might become their secret weapon for mid-term revival.

The problem I see is that they reiterate, just about every set, that the RL is not changing, that they've talked at length about 'the spirit of the RL' (which, printing functionally identical cards for MTGO isn't doing?), and that they've made it more strict instead of more relaxed.

Power creep is also a factor. In some ways, if they make duals really accessible and the days of 100+ dollar duals is long gone, there will be an absolute rush on 1-2 CMC, uber-powerful cards. They won't be able to print 4WW cards anymore unless they do absurdly broken things, and they're almost at that point now. Even if Standard won't see any benefit of Power or Duals being reprinted, the share of the playerbase that wants/needs extremely powerful stuff will be greater than it was before.... Which invariably means printing things IN standard, but FOR Legacy and Vintage. Right now, I'd estimate they have Vintage/Legacy in mind when they design probably 4 cards out of every 250 card set. If that number needed to increase, they will have serious issues with Standard, IMO.

Which is why special sets are super important, and I wish they used this opportunity (printing a non-Standard-legal set) to innovate for Vintage and Legacy and print some new action cards. Future bans, even. Just more tools for us to get excited about. Every other year we'd get a set designed specifically for Eternal, and not just reprints. That would be VERY good, and a solution to expanding the eternal player pool without having to affect Standard and Modern as a result. Personally, I want a Mishra set :)

[Reagens]

I really think that the only way for them to truly combat counterfeits is to reprint power/duals.

If this was true most counterfeits would be RL cards but I'm pretty sure that T2/Modern cards are perhaps even more viable for counterfeits then P9/RL cards are because of the volume of the market.
Assuming you would be able to counterfeit an Alpha Black Lotus to near perfection how many do you reckon you would be able to push into the market before you draw attention? Who would buy that thing without asking questions? Assume it would be just as difficult to counterfeit say tarmogoyf/fetches/liliana of the veil. Which would be more interesting and would probably go unnoticed for quite a while?

[Lemnear]

If this was true most counterfeits would be RL cards but I'm pretty sure that T2/Modern cards are perhaps even more viable for counterfeits then P9/RL cards are because of the volume of the market.
Assuming you would be able to counterfeit an Alpha Black Lotus to near perfection how many do you reckon you would be able to push into the market before you draw attention? Who would buy that thing without asking questions? Assume it would be just as difficult to counterfeit say tarmogoyf/fetches/liliana of the veil. Which would be more interesting and would probably go unnoticed for quite a while?

Making counterfeints of power and Duals is stupid as there is so mich money involved people do a shitload of tests to determine if the cards are real or not. The real market for counterfeits are cast flippable staples for Modern at this point like Goyf, Liliana, Snapcaster and Fetches

[MaximumC]

I really think that the only way for them to truly combat counterfeits is to reprint power/duals. They've tried (and I know they apologized and reversed course with this, but I see this as a genuine attempt) to stop proxies altogether and faced huge criticism. Their attempts at moving Vintage to MTGO isn't really working for varied and numerous reasons. They reprint highly valuable cards on a near-regular basis now (MM), and it's had the effect that one would expect, Modern is flourishing, prices become more stable, but not without value to collectors.

....

I personally don't think they're edging against the RL, or have any plans to remove it. We should figure out what to do, especially once EM hits and sells out, and Wizards sees that more people actually prefer Vintage and Legacy (which I think is definitely true, when card prices aren't a factor).

I agree that Wizards won't violate the reserve list, but I strongly disagree that this is "the only way for them to truly combat counterfeits." The reserve list prevents "functional reprints" which Wizards defines as: " A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness." That means the door is open to Snow Duals, Legendary Duals, that kind of thing.

"But MaximumC," you say, "what about the SPIRIT of the Reserve list?" Yes, this is a concept they have floated before. However, this is flexible standard. Somewhere in Hasbro, some in-house counsel has written a legal memo where the lawyer has said something like: "You technically can print a Snow Dual, but smaller the functional difference is, the more likely some jackoff is to sue you. The argument would be that the difference is not material enough, so it violates the intent of the Reserve list. Plus, if it's really a replacement for an expensive Reserve-list card, you're maximizing the chances that the old cards actually lose value, giving said jackoff damages." So, WotC has a lot of flexibility on exactly what is too close to a card.

Luckily, we know this flexibility allows them to print cards that compete with Reserve List cards. Sometimes, they print new archetypes (Eldrazi, Maverick, Belcher, etc) that can break into older formats. Other times, they print new cards that are very nearly strict upgrades to older cards (Faithless Looting). In other words, Wizards has all the tools they need to revitalize old formats without breaking the reserve list.

Still not convinced? Here's some examples of cards that: (1) don't violate the express Reserve List; (2) compete with Reserve List staples; and (3) for which there is not much of an argument that they are "too close" to Reserve List cards:

Better Dual Land
Forest Plains
When this enters the battlefield, scry 1.

Weird Black Lotus
Enchantment - 0
Add 3 mana of any single color to your mana pool. This mana may not be spent to cast artifacts.

Ancestrall Recall 2.0
5U
Delve
Draw three cards.

(Whoops, they actually did print that last one. My bad.)

Obviously, there are other concerns that might make them reluctant to print such powerful cards. The point here is that all our belly aching about the Reserve List is totally misplaced. The only reason they don't print cards like this for Legacy and Vintage is because they have power level concerns, not because of the Reserve List.

[NeckBird]

http://imgur.com/a/OuoVH

How Did Magic Perform in 2015? What's The Outlook For 2016? From Hasbro's 2016 Investor Day Update

This is an important factor that I don't really see people directly discussing in regards to the Reserved List. MTG is still growing at a strong, healthy rate. There isn't a good reason for Hasbro to through a wrench in the system like abolishing the Reserved List when MTG is experiencing such success. The only way Hasbro/Wizards will remove the Reserved List is if MTG goes in the red and they need a gimmick to regenerate interest. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks that this is the reason the Reserved List wasn't abolished years ago - it's the equivalent of a rainy day fund. If Hasbro's/Wizard's market studies ever show that MTG is losing its appeal they'll announce its removal and we'll see dual lands in standard and FTV: Reserved List. This could take years of course, but for now, I'll just be happy that at least a few people will be able to start playing Legacy.

[Warden]

I really think that the only way for them to truly combat counterfeits is to reprint power/duals. They've tried (and I know they apologized and reversed course with this, but I see this as a genuine attempt) to stop proxies altogether and faced huge criticism. Their attempts at moving Vintage to MTGO isn't really working for varied and numerous reasons. They reprint highly valuable cards on a near-regular basis now (MM), and it's had the effect that one would expect, Modern is flourishing, prices become more stable, but not without value to collectors.

Who will get pissed of they do? People with enough extra cash to just own 4-10 playsets of power or Library or Workshop (or Force... they're already pissed). Honestly I care so little about the plight of people who use cardboard in binders as a stock portfolio. There's a FB Vintage group, and 1 out of every 4 people commenting on EM said they got rid of absolutely everything that *might* have been printed in EM. One person had something like 40 FoW they shifted when they heard of the *possibility* they'd be reprinting Force. Personally? I have playsets of RL cards. I take absolutely no joy in seeing Mox Diamond double in price, even though I have a few extras. I'm not using my two LED in anything, and I don't think it being up to $150 since EM's announcement is a good thing. This is the difference between players and collectors, I place more value on the game itself than on the cards, The game gets worse when people can't afford to play it.

I'm with folks in that I don't think this thread should become about the RL, but so often this issue comes up (twice in the last few months, even) that I personally think it has to become something we need to constructively discuss, specifically about tactics we can employ to end it. Like I mentioned, the more they try to make money off eternal formats, the more players will be sucked in to a world where only half of their deck is accessible, and the other half is far beyond reasonable to attain.

I personally don't think they're edging against the RL, or have any plans to remove it. We should figure out what to do, especially once EM hits and sells out, and Wizards sees that more people actually prefer Vintage and Legacy (which I think is definitely true, when card prices aren't a factor).

This is very well articulated. I totally agree with what's being said. I think I represent the other side of this new reality: I'm willing to walk away for good. Enough is enough. WotC is in bed with SCG and the other major MTG vendors. EM1 isn't going to stop skyrocketing prices of cards.

The market reaction to Eternal Masters is convincing me to cash out for good. I'm tired of this shit. I enjoy Legacy. I enjoy the friends I've met through playing. I don't throw all my discretionary income at MTG -- but if tournaments are asking for $40 today instead of $30 a few years ago, I'm okay with it. That kind of a rise in price is expected to a certain extent. I won't tolerate the now constant overnight spikes in card prices.

At least for me, it's been a constant race "do I want to spend some more cash on cards?" vs "prices went up 50-100-150-200%. What $50 gets me nowadays isn't what it got me 3 years ago. $300 gets you increasingly less and less. I don't think highly of this impending Eternal Masters set. Its impact on the market is all the proof I need. And that's without delving into the cards included in the set.

[MaximumC]

At least for me, it's been a constant race "do I want to spend some more cash on cards?" vs "prices went up 50-100-150-200%. What $50 gets me nowadays isn't what it got me 3 years ago. $300 gets you increasingly less and less. I don't think highly of this impending Eternal Masters set. Its impact on the market is all the proof I need. And that's without delving into the cards included in the set.

Don't be so hasty. While it's true that Reserve List staples have spiked and will continue to spike in response to Eternal Masters, cards that are actually reprinted should go down. More importantly, Wizards can easily fix the Reserve List problem (it isn't really a problem) by just printing upgrades or slightly new versions of Reserve List cards. We've seen that the company has been willing to carefully address the price problem with reprints. It doesn't happen overnight, but they DO listen.

Look how they managed to shatter the price barrier for Shocklands in Modern by reprinting it aggressively in RtR block. Look how they tanked the price of fetchlands by reprinting them in Khans. Look at the dip in price of Modern staples during the print runs of Modern Masters, etc. Look at the great reprints from Eternal that were featured in Conspiracy. We haven't seen true replacements for the Alpha Duals yet, no, but they've come close twice with the Shocklands and now taplands. They can go further if they want to.

The point is, Wizards IS ACTING. So far, it hasn't been aggressive enough to keep up with demand. That doesn't mean we give up on them entirely.

[H]

This. Rosewater's article on the 20 things that shaped the game we know today and players' responses it pretty telling.

60-card decks and 4-per-card limits - "Why is Wizards trying to tell me how many cards I can play with???"

Banned and Restricted list - "Why is Wizards trying to tell me which cards I can play with???"

Creation of Type 2 - See above

Removal of ante cards - "Why is Wizards catering to small kids and parents???"

Removal of damage on the stack and mana burn - "Why is Wizards dumbing down this game???"

Chronicles - "Wizards is trying to make my collection worthless!!!"

Reserve List - "Wizards is trying to make this game too expensive!!!"

Exactly. There are zero ways to please the entire community. In fact, I don't think there are any ways to please even most of the community.

What they should do is just what is best for the continued longevity of the game. So far, I haven't seen them do anything that is blatantly against that. I think they have also, in the past, critically misjudged how large (in terms of spending power) the Eternal community is and this set seems to be at least something toward marketing something for us.

Is it going to be perfect? No. Is the $10 a pack and extremely limited print run unfortunate? Yes.

But at least this is a first step in the right direction.

[bruizar]

I think they managed to design something really elegant with the new colorless mana symbol. They made painlands 'better' than dual lands without infringing the reserved list or adding power creep

[PirateKing]

I think they managed to design something really elegant with the new colorless mana symbol. They made painlands 'better' than dual lands without infringing the reserved list or adding power creep

If painlands were fetchable I might be more inclined to agree, though there would be arguments for both based on the deck. Without being fetchable, it's not even close to equitable.

[bruizar]

If painlands were fetchable I might be more inclined to agree, though there would be arguments for both based on the deck. Without being fetchable, it's not even close to equitable.

Dual lands have no place in the Eldrazi deck because it's the only deck that uses so many <> symbols. It's also quiet different from Cavern of Souls as Cavern does not provides a splash color for sideboarded spells. For other decks this is less relevant, given to how little <> cards are playable outside the Eldrazi shell.

[Barook]

I think they managed to design something really elegant with the new colorless mana symbol. They made painlands 'better' than dual lands without infringing the reserved list or adding power creep
This. I'm currently playtesting GW Eldrazi and aside from 2 Mox Diamonds (which are not mandatory), the list is completely free of RL cards and whoops asses left and right.

Colorless mana cards are a great way to introduce new cards to the format without having to worry about the RL, although they might be cautions about it after the whole Eldrazi powerlevel disaster in Modern.

Brushland is actually a triland in the deck.

[Crimhead]

More importantly, Wizards can easily fix the Reserve List problem (it isn't really a problem) by just printing upgrades or slightly new versions of Reserve List cards.
That's fine for Duals. But for everything else you have to ban the old cards or else Elves gets extra Cradles, Lands gets extra Mox/Tabernacle, Storm gets extra LED, etc. I don't think that is the right move.

[phonics]

Just to check, since I haven`t seen any really good ones - do they have the right print pattern, text printed without the dot pattern, do they pass the light test etc? I can feel the paranoia starting to set in.

The one I remember seeing (force of will) had all that, the only difference was it had black core paper instead of blue.

[MaximumC]

That's fine for Duals. But for everything else you have to ban the old cards or else Elves gets extra Cradles, Lands gets extra Mox/Tabernacle, Storm gets extra LED, etc. I don't think that is the right move.

I don't disagree. I don't think people are eager to play in a format that allows 8 Tabernacles and 10 Alpha-Mox equivalents. The point, though, is that it is that concern over degeneracy and power level, more than the Reserve List alone, that keeps these kind of cards from being printed.

[dte]

I don't disagree. I don't think people are eager to play in a format that allows 8 Tabernacles

I play a bit in a format where 4 tabernacle are allowed, and the most I've seen is one, even if I've seen scarce lists on internet which have been playing 2.
So I just looked at mtgtop8, and among all the lists which have played tabernacle in legacy in 2015, there were 55 decks playing it. Well, the 55 lists have only one thing in common, which is their number of tabernacle. Exactly one.

[Finn]

Wasteland and Force of Will are getting reprinted. I am having a hard time seeing a down side for the future of Legacy here, even if the set is those and all chaff.

[Quasim0ff]

Wasteland and Force of Will are getting reprinted. I am having a hard time seeing a down side for the future of Legacy here, even if the set is those and all chaff.

Duals are going to be more expensive. That's only downside I can see.

[GenghisTom]

Duals are going to be more expensive. That's only downside I can see.

If the price of enough staples comes down it may balance out - not only that, but shocks are a viable substitute for entry level players until they can work up to duals.
Or they could play all shocks and my avatar lol...

[Dice_Box]

I hope they are smart enough to reprint all the expensive Fish, DnT and Elves cards. While you do need RL cards for optimal Elves, you could play in a local store without them. The others don't need RL cards at all.

[Crimhead]

I play a bit in a format where 4 tabernacle are allowed, and the most I've seen is one, even if I've seen scarce lists on internet which have been playing 2.
So I just looked at mtgtop8, and among all the lists which have played tabernacle in legacy in 2015, there were 55 decks playing it. Well, the 55 lists have only one thing in common, which is their number of tabernacle. Exactly one.
If we could keep two Tabernacles in play, there would be more incentive to double up. That's the issue with printing as similar card (eg, one where the creatures are sacrificed instead of destroyed).

Yeah, nobody is apt to run eight copies! But every Lands deck would gladly run two in the seventy-five if we had an almost functional rerprint.

[Cartesian]

Wasteland and Force of Will are getting reprinted. I am having a hard time seeing a down side for the future of Legacy here, even if the set is those and all chaff.
Yes I agree, this has to be a net plus for Legacy. Those two especially are the two primary "police cards" of Legacy, and if people now can get their hands on a playset of either they might see a realistic way to compete in the format that wasn't there before. People could port their Modern Merfolk deck seamlessly, for example. Duals are still out of reach for most people, but duals mostly give you more options - they are not a must have, as such.
Trying to be optimistic. :wink:

[rancOr_]

Prices of duals will continue to go up. But we gain a lot from all the Eternal reprints they are doing.. more access for newer players..
And yet I dont think its that bad that duals go up a bit they have been relatively cheap compared to some of the Modern spikes etc. Nowadays a playset of Inquisition of Kozilek is worth more then a NM Taiga and a playset of Goblin Guides is worth a Bayou- this isn't normal and there has never been a ratio like this in the past..

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Also you dont need a playset of duals. It really helps if you have just 1 to fetch... I have about 25/40 duals and this is enough to build most of the manabases...

[Dice_Box]

Yeah, nobody is apt to run eight copies! But every Lands deck would gladly run two in the seventy-five if we had an almost functional rerprint.
I already run two and I am looking on cutting back to one again. Your trying to fit to much in a small space and Tab is just not optimal as a two of.

Now playing Stax... well there I break out all three and that pisses people off.

[bruizar]

Dual prices aint the problem for legacy. Look at the money going around in Modern. It's all about format support. When SCG streamed more legacy it was a lot more popular.

[nevilshute]

Dual prices aint the problem for legacy. Look at the money going around in Modern. It's all about format support. When SCG streamed more legacy it was a lot more popular.

Shrug, the price difference between comparable Legacy and Modern decks seems to be roughly 100-150%. For example, Modern Jund ~2k$, Legacy Shardless ~4k$

[Mr. Safety]

Wasteland and Force of Will are getting reprinted. I am having a hard time seeing a down side for the future of Legacy here, even if the set is those and all chaff.

This x100.

I bought a box of modern masters1, and while it didn't pay off as well as I wanted I got a shit-ton of playable cards out of it. This will be the same.

Oh no, I have all these shitty cabal therapies, dazes, and young pyromancers lying around. I am convinced that this is going to be the calibre of uncommons in the set.

[bruizar]

Shrug, the price difference between comparable Legacy and Modern decks seems to be roughly 100-150%. For example, Modern Jund ~2k$, Legacy Shardless ~4k$

There's so much overlap between many decks though. I think you can build an entirely new second modern deck or expand your current modern build to legacy for about the same price, using shocks as transition cards as you accumulate the required duals? Jund is not a blue based deck, legacy shardless is. That explains a lot because the fetch-base doesn't overlap AND you need to pay for blue based duals.


I already run two and I am looking on cutting back to one again. Your trying to fit to much in a small space and Tab is just not optimal as a two of.

Now playing Stax... well there I break out all three and that pisses people off.

I want to see that on live coverage :D

[MaximumC]

Also you dont need a playset of duals. It really helps if you have just 1 to fetch... I have about 25/40 duals and this is enough to build most of the manabases...

Yeah, this. I don't think there's a material difference between 2-3 of a dual with fetches and 4 duals with fetches. You need more than one because Wasteland, but you also don't necessarily want your whole mana base to be duals because Wasteland. (And, to a lesser degree, Blood Moon, Choke, etc).

Still, that's little comfort when people are charging you the price of a new computer for a single Magic card.

Just be glad you're not selling a car to buy a piece of power.

[tescrin]

Yeah, this. I don't think there's a material difference between 2-3 of a dual with fetches and 4 duals with fetches. You need more than one because Wasteland, but you also don't necessarily want your whole mana base to be duals because Wasteland.

I agree. I actually think running 4 of the same dual is always bad. Whenever I run 4 of the same, you get hands or games where you find 3, and you're either locked out of a color or you're wasted/tempo'd into oblivion because you never found a fetch/basic. I try to max out at 3 of each dual, and 1-2 of the ones that no one uses (plateau, taiga)

[Spam]

I agree. I actually think running 4 of the same dual is always bad. Whenever I run 4 of the same, you get hands or games where you find 3, and you're either locked out of a color or you're wasted/tempo'd into oblivion because you never found a fetch/basic. I try to max out at 3 of each dual, and 1-2 of the ones that no one uses (plateau, taiga)
Besides storm, every other legacy deck can operate with shocks. A friend of mine place well with miracles without tundras. It sucks? Yes it does, but for a 50 players tournament it's fine.

[Bosque]

Derp. Posted to wrong thread.

[HSCK]

Even if Wizards sent out pre cons with any card in legacy you wanted people on here would still find a way to complain, and then blame it on Brainstorm and call for its ban.

[sjmcc13]

I hope they are smart enough to reprint all the expensive Fish, DnT and Elves cards. While you do need RL cards for optimal Elves, you could play in a local store without them. The others don't need RL cards at all.
What is expensive in Fish other than FoW and Wasteland that is not already modern legal?
I would like to see at least 1 of Natural Order or glimpse of Nature in the set for elves.
Port should be included as well as a way to tank its MODO price and get Lotus to be the most expensive card on MODO.


Also you dont need a playset of duals. It really helps if you have just 1 to fetch... I have about 25/40 duals and this is enough to build most of the manabases...
I have 24 (4 Trop,4 Sea, 4 tundra,4 Volcanic,2 Bayou,2 Savannah,1 Badlands,1 Scrubland,1 Taiga,1 Plateau) and am fine for almost every deck I look at and would like to play in terms of colored sources. Though I kind of want to go up to at least 2 of each to make building EDH easier. normally when I look at a man base and go "nuts" it is because of either Tabernacle, Port or Cradel

[Crimhead]

I already run two and I am looking on cutting back to one again. Your trying to fit to much in a small space and Tab is just not optimal as a two of.
A second Tabernacle with a different name would be a little better, no?

The meta is heavy with Storm and Miracles these days. If we had a lot more Delver, Elves, Blade, and D&T you might be less inclined to cut Tabernacle number two?

[cartoonist]

Something else to consider here is that WoTC might be testing the waters to see if they want to push Legacy as a format. They've seen Modern take off over the last couple years, and have sold out of Modern Masters. They obviously recognize that printing cards for that format and reprinting highly sought after cards would make them money. If they don't try it, the Chinese counterfeiters will do it instead, and do it cheaper. Those cards are already virtually indistinguishable from the real thing. The RL is really the only thing holding Wizards back from cashing in.

Unless it won't be for long.

If this is a test, and EM sells out hard and fast, they just might pull the trigger and get rid of the RL. The summer supplemental sets have done well, and there's even the possibility of more. Modern has turned into a shit show with its banlist, but Legacy has done very well - in terms of balance - on its own with minimal interference. Legacy might be the Eternal hero WoTC needs.

Plus, Hasbro and Mattel are looking to merge. There might be outside pressure to do away with the RL.

[MGB]

Something else to consider here is that WoTC might be testing the waters to see if they want to push Legacy as a format. They've seen Modern take off over the last couple years, and have sold out of Modern Masters. They obviously recognize that printing cards for that format and reprinting highly sought after cards would make them money. If they don't try it, the Chinese counterfeiters will do it instead, and do it cheaper. Those cards are already virtually indistinguishable from the real thing. The RL is really the only thing holding Wizards back from cashing in.

Unless it won't be for long.

If this is a test, and EM sells out hard and fast, they just might pull the trigger and get rid of the RL. The summer supplemental sets have done well, and there's even the possibility of more. Modern has turned into a shit show with its banlist, but Legacy has done very well - in terms of balance - on its own with minimal interference. Legacy might be the Eternal hero WoTC needs.

Plus, Hasbro and Mattel are looking to merge. There might be outside pressure to do away with the RL.

I can buy this theory.

HasbroMattelTron will have more than enough money to buy the legal dream team and fend off those pesky collectors' class action lawsuits. If they can, they'll rake in a boatload of cash just to reprint some of these old cards. Printing money, really.

[Mr. Safety]

Something else to consider here is that WoTC might be testing the waters to see if they want to push Legacy as a format. They've seen Modern take off over the last couple years, and have sold out of Modern Masters. They obviously recognize that printing cards for that format and reprinting highly sought after cards would make them money. If they don't try it, the Chinese counterfeiters will do it instead, and do it cheaper. Those cards are already virtually indistinguishable from the real thing. The RL is really the only thing holding Wizards back from cashing in.

Unless it won't be for long.

If this is a test, and EM sells out hard and fast, they just might pull the trigger and get rid of the RL. The summer supplemental sets have done well, and there's even the possibility of more. Modern has turned into a shit show with its banlist, but Legacy has done very well - in terms of balance - on its own with minimal interference. Legacy might be the Eternal hero WoTC needs.

Plus, Hasbro and Mattel are looking to merge. There might be outside pressure to do away with the RL.


I love this; I hope you are on to something here.

[TsumiBand]

I would love to think that a motivator as pure and base as "making money" could motivate an RL demolition session, but really they could have done this at any time over the last 5 years (or since Legacy became A Thing, so much longer ago) and made their money directly from the sale of reprinted Eternal staples instead of making it indirectly by printing like Standard cards that Legacy players want (Jace TMS and Dig Through Time and other junk that has made a name for itself). Like whatever heat that collectors think they could bring is instantly paid off in hype by just showing a new-border dual as a preview card. Hell they coulda thrown them into EDH precons and still made a fuckton of money.

I mean I'd love to believe that the combined corporate greed of Hasbro and Mattel could lead to a reprint of The Good Shit but if the RP is "just a promise" then this is a trigger they woulda pulled years ago.

[Lemnear]

If this is a test, and EM sells out hard and fast, they just might pull the trigger and get rid of the RL. The summer supplemental sets have done well, and there's even the possibility of more. Modern has turned into a shit show with its banlist, but Legacy has done very well - in terms of balance - on its own with minimal interference. Legacy might be the Eternal hero WoTC needs.

Plus, Hasbro and Mattel are looking to merge. There might be outside pressure to do away with the RL.

You REALLY don't want that WotC pays too much attention to Legacy or turns it into a broadly supported format or adds it to the Pro Tour, otherwise Mr. "Gentlemen's Agreement" would turn Legacy into SFM vs Tarmogoyf.

[Dice_Box]

Before that happens I would hope that they have learnt something from Modern and mostly leave us be. I mean there are cards that are in need of a banning and unbanning, but in all a soft touch is all that would be needed to make the format flow just as it has been without issue.

[nevilshute]

Scenario 1: They abolish the reserve list. This completely throws everything up in the air. This might lead them to consolidate all three non-rotating formats (Modern, Legacy, Vintage) into one format and have that be their once-a-year protour format. It might lead to Modern being discontinued and Legacy taking its place while Vintage remaining what it is today (reprinting power in any meaningful way still feels unlikely even with no RL). It also might not change anything and Modern continues being Modern with Legacy left to its own devices. Probably numerous other outcomes are possible if the RL goes and it's hard to really say which one is more likely.

Scenario 2: They maintain the reserve list. This could, and quite possibly will, just mean that things remain the way they are. We get 2-3 (but eventually probably just 1 or none) Legacy GPs a year and the rest is what private organizers choose to do. This is in a pre-EMA announcement universe. With EMA they are - quite out of the blue - showing signs that they have an interest in openly supporting Legacy (and Vintage). Where before things have been sneaked into the format via one-of sets like Conspiracy or through the Commander products. With this they are showing that they are willing to explore a more direct support of Legacy - the obvious reason being that it will likely be a huge seller. What does this mean in terms of tournament support etc? I'm hopeful that it might mean a few more GPs in years to come. I think, 100 %, that this won't mean a Legacy Protour. It also might mean nothing at all and EMA is just a one-of thing like Conspiracy. Regardless this should be welcomes as something immensely positive, I feel, and basically what nearly all of us have been craving for years.

[Mr. Safety]

It was just a short time ago that Wotc opened up FNM to all formats. Now we have eternal masters as a "test" for how much eternal can really be supported. We've also seen some fairly reasonable ban/unbans over the past couple years. All of this points my opinion towards this stance: wotc wants to support eternal, but from a distance so it doesn't upset the community. This em set is their boldest move yet and truly think they are testing the waters for making legacy more accessible.

[Dice_Box]

I would argue Conspiracy was a test set. A toe in the water. Now they are going balls deep and waiting.

[Crimhead]

A multiplayer limited format was experimental. And I'm not sure how successful it was. I have a sealed box I bought when it was new. Despite the Canadian dollar tanking, I'm unable to sell this for even what I paid.

But sticky new cards and reprints for Eternal into casual products was nothing neexor experimental. I see EMA as abandoning the idea of a biennial casual sealed set.

[Chatto]

It was just a short time ago that Wotc opened up FNM to all formats. Now we have eternal masters as a "test" for how much eternal can really be supported. We've also seen some fairly reasonable ban/unbans over the past couple years. All of this points my opinion towards this stance: wotc wants to support eternal, but from a distance so it doesn't upset the community. This em set is their boldest move yet and truly think they are testing the waters for making legacy more accessible.

I hope this is correct, and WotC/ Hasbro is really looking for a way to drop the RL. More support means more tournaments, something I (and the most of us) could appreciate.

[Lemnear]

I hope this is correct, and WotC/ Hasbro is really looking for a way to drop the RL. More support means more tournaments, something I (and the most of us) could appreciate.

Meh, more support means WotC meddling with the B&R list. Once WotC gets the idea of supporting Legacy and add it to their schedule expect Ponder/Brainstorm/SDT/S&T/LED/DarkRitual/Vial/etc. banned

[Dice_Box]

Meh, more support means WotC meddling with the B&R list. Once WotC gets the idea of supporting Legacy and add it to their schedule expect Ponder/Brainstorm/SDT/S&T/LED/DarkRitual/Vial/etc. banned

I am not sure that it would happen like that. Because Legacy has self policing cards that let the format regulate. Brainstorm would go, yes, maybe Counterballance as well but otherwise I do not think you need to go Nuclear on Legacy like they do no Modern. Force of Will, for all the colour warping it does, is the answer a format like Modern needs.

[Lemnear]

I am not sure that it would happen like that. Because Legacy has self policing cards that let the format regulate. Brainstorm would go, yes, maybe Counterballance as well but otherwise I do not think you need to go Nuclear on Legacy like they do no Modern. Force of Will, for all the colour warping it does, is the answer a format like Modern needs.

Because thats was exactly what happened during Vintage Apocalypse, the initial Modern banlist or the Gentlemens Agreement? "WotC" and "careful handling" is nothing to put in a single sentence.

[Crimhead]

I am not sure that it would happen like that. Because Legacy has self policing cards that let the format regulate.
I don't know much about Modern, but I've heard some theories that Twin was banned despite being a format police deck for the purpose of shaking up the format to promote sales and interest. Scary if true.

I'm not saying WotC would go completely ballistic in the banned list, but I do think we would likely see some questionable bans if they dedicayte resources towards marketing and profiting from Legacy. Hopefully we get the happy medium - the odd release like EMA to make a quick buck off the devotees, but no real push to market the format (beyond the inevitable hype such releases will engender).

[Mr. Safety]

I am not sure that it would happen like that. Because Legacy has self policing cards that let the format regulate. Brainstorm would go, yes, maybe Counterballance as well but otherwise I do not think you need to go Nuclear on Legacy like they do no Modern. Force of Will, for all the colour warping it does, is the answer a format like Modern needs.

This, this, this.

While I feel wotc will continue to go balls deep (I forgot about conspiracy) I don't think they will pull the trigger on a legacy pro tour. The pt is the single biggest reason for the rotating bans in modern imho. Its their standard+ format to replace extended. However, more legacy gp's in the future are definitely possible if the format gets a big boost like modern did with mm1.

[Lemnear]

This, this, this.

While I feel wotc will continue to go balls deep (I forgot about conspiracy) I don't think they will pull the trigger on a legacy pro tour. The pt is the single biggest reason for the rotating bans in modern imho. Its their standard+ format to replace extended. However, more legacy gp's in the future are definitely possible if the format gets a big boost like modern did with mm1.

We will see if the ban of Twin was an exception or the first sign of WotC introducing an artificial Rotation to their "Eternal Format".

[maharis]

To be clear, I think this is great for the format. For me specifically, because I've been buying in over the past few years, I basically have one set of everything -- I think Lightning Bolt and Gitaxian Probe are the only cards I know I have 8 of sleeved up for multi-deck use.

With extra sets of only a few cards I could build 2-3 reasonably competitive decks at a time instead of 1. So even if I don't want to sell my duals -- and I don't, because once that happens I'm never getting them back -- they can still be used in legacy events because I can lend "real" decks. I'm sure there are others in the same boat. $100 for a set of Wastelands, instead of a single one as it was at its peak, is way more palatable if you want to have extra staples on hand simply to boost your local scene. Getting Imperial Recruiter gives my set of Plateaux text.

I just don't see how they can put this set out there without a plan to expand access to all cards in the Legacy pool. The skyrocketing prices on RL staples was completely predictable. Honestly, there are a couple cards I'm surprised haven't been picked up en masse yet. They are very explicity releasing a set of spiky eternal staples -- this set is not for commander players (Despite their inclusion of it as an eternal format, they already have a product for those players, and this is not it.) Putting them out there but still restricting access to other key parts of those decks would be a PR nightmare if not an actual sales nightmare.

[Finn]

I think you guys are giving them too much credit for forward thinking. I bet they are just playing by ear at this point.

"Hey, I know. Let's make an eternal-only set!"
"Ooh, good one. All in favor..."

"AYE!"

"Great! Let's order lunch."

[H]

I don't know much about Modern, but I've heard some theories that Twin was banned despite being a format police deck for the purpose of shaking up the format to promote sales and interest. Scary if true.


We will see if the ban of Twin was an exception or the first sign of WotC introducing an artificial Rotation to their "Eternal Format".

The purpose of the Pro Tour is to drive the sale of sealed product. The Twin-dominated wouldn't have done that, nor showcased much except that Twin was a good deck and probably a go-to for most of the pro teams. It's really not scary to me, it's pretty obvious in my mind. Wizards is out to make money, plain and simple.

People were stupid and short-sighted to clamor so loudly for Modern Pro Tour, despite Wizards making it pretty clear that they felt it wasn't a good idea (by having zero). I don't think that they are after an artificial rotation, per se, more like out to sell product. If banning a few things does that, they'll do it.

I do wonder if they knew that Eldrazi would be as good as it was, sans Twin and Bloom. I'd almost like to think they did, but man, the FFL rarely gets things that right. Maybe they actually did this time. Now that is something crazy.

[Richard Cheese]

The purpose of the Pro Tour is to drive the sale of sealed product. The Twin-dominated wouldn't have done that, nor showcased much except that Twin was a good deck and probably a go-to for most of the pro teams. It's really not scary to me, it's pretty obvious in my mind. Wizards is out to make money, plain and simple.

People were stupid and short-sighted to clamor so loudly for Modern Pro Tour, despite Wizards making it pretty clear that they felt it wasn't a good idea (by having zero). I don't think that they are after an artificial rotation, per se, more like out to sell product. If banning a few things does that, they'll do it.

I do wonder if they knew that Eldrazi would be as good as it was, sans Twin and Bloom. I'd almost like to think they did, but man, the FFL rarely gets things that right. Maybe they actually did this time. Now that is something crazy.

To go full-on conspiracy theory, we know the "God Books" are a thing, right? How far in advance do those get passed around? Maybe CFB was testing those Eldrazi months ago, and came back to Wizards with a deck that's practically standard legal that could stomp on everything but Twin and Bloom...

Or maybe that's complete horseshit, because I actually have no idea how good Eldrazi is against Twin/Bloom.

[Admiral_Arzar]

To go full-on conspiracy theory, we know the "God Books" are a thing, right? How far in advance do those get passed around? Maybe CFB was testing those Eldrazi months ago, and came back to Wizards with a deck that's practically standard legal that could stomp on everything but Twin and Bloom...

Or maybe that's complete horseshit, because I actually have no idea how good Eldrazi is against Twin/Bloom.

Somebody did a test video or something recently, and apparently Eldrazi is pretty bad against Bloom. Not sure about Twin.

[Dice_Box]

Let's not make this a Modern conspiracy theory thread. There is one already, the Modern Ban List thread.

[HSCK]

I think you guys are giving them too much credit for forward thinking. I bet they are just playing by ear at this point.

"Hey, I know. Let's make an eternal-only set!"
"Ooh, good one. All in favor..."

"AYE!"

"Great! Let's order lunch."

Printing increasing amounts of money sounds great, why not do it?

[GundamGuy]

Printing increasing amounts of money sounds great, why not do it?

Expeditions say they are way ahead of you...

[Ellomdian]

A multiplayer limited format was experimental. And I'm not sure how successful it was. I have a sealed box I bought when it was new. Despite the Canadian dollar tanking, I'm unable to sell this for even what I paid.

Are you talking about Conspiracy product? Because if you paid retail, it's already trending up pretty dramatically. Dack and random Foils for stuff like Exploration are going to drive up the price. SCG has Packs and Boxes out of stock, and I PROMISE you it's not because they don't have any.

I'm not saying I would buy them from you right now, but I wouldn't just dump it on the first chump who asks about it either.

[Lemnear]

To go full-on conspiracy theory, we know the "God Books" are a thing, right? How far in advance do those get passed around? Maybe CFB was testing those Eldrazi months ago, and came back to Wizards with a deck that's practically standard legal that could stomp on everything but Twin and Bloom...

Or maybe that's complete horseshit, because I actually have no idea how good Eldrazi is against Twin/Bloom.

Given the lastest leaks from Kozilek/Wastes to the Innistrad set to the Eternal Master Box in circulation, we already know that Insider information to Judges & Vendors is still a thing screwing up players/shops without connections in terms of deckbuilding and the secondary market. There is no doubt that at least some Individuals within WotC have a very unhealthy Connection to people making shitloads of money with that I'll-Gotten knowledge and follow up buyouts.

There is also do doubt some people knew about the Twin and Bloom ban or why would they work on something like Eldrazi Stompy which is a dog to Twin/Bloom? Of course the ban was also done to drives Sales of the new set and creating an artificial Rotation of this particular "Eternal" format.

I don't believe in coincidence.

[Barook]

Given the lastest leaks from Kozilek/Wastes to the Innistrad set to the Eternal Master Box in circulation, we already know that Insider information to Judges & Vendors is still a thing screwing up players/shops without connections in terms of deckbuilding and the secondary market. There is no doubt that at least some Individuals within WotC have a very unhealthy Connection to people making shitloads of money with that I'll-Gotten knowledge and follow up buyouts.

There is also do doubt some people knew about the Twin and Bloom ban or why would they work on something like Eldrazi Stompy which is a dog to Twin/Bloom? Of course the ban was also done to drives Sales of the new set and creating an artificial Rotation of this particular "Eternal" format.

I don't believe in coincidence.
Team CFB probably had Godbook knowledge. But the Bloom ban was long overdue and thus, expected. Twin also wouldn't have been able to to jackshit about Eldrazi, considering the WB build already shat on it even before the OGW upgrades.

What I've gathered from the Twitter drama ensuing this week, corrupt members in the translation/distribution chain in Japan, China and Latin America seem to the main problem.

[rufus]

...
What I've gathered from the Twitter drama ensuing this week, corrupt members in the translation/distribution chain in Japan, China and Latin America seem to the main problem.

I think there's too many people involved to really keep secrets well.

[KindGrind]

Regarding reprints here, let's not forget that Eternal also means Modern.

You can bet the set will be littered with the likes of Spellskite, Glimmervoid and Oblivion Stone, and uncommons like Ghostly Prison or Remand.

I think the Grove and Canopy reprints are more likely/overdue than Port, although obviously it's a possible target. As someone mentioned earlier, Port has just been reprinted (Judge Foil), so I'm not sure exactly.

Also interesting to note is the fact that lots of the reprinted cards in Modern Masters dipped in the beginning, but gained value back and then some. Look at the price of Blood Moon, Doubling Season, the aforementioned O-Stone and Glimmervoid, etc.

What WILL be interesting though is the price of Legacy staples once we know they're not going to be reprinted. Remember when they annouced they wouldn't be reprinting the Zen fetches in a recent set...

Depite the fact that the cards will be scarce and the packs expensive, I can't be against more supply if it means only a few new players. When you see the price of Modern decks vs Legacy decks, you're not too far off.

I mean, Auriok Champion? Goblin Guide? Many of the cards in Modern command pretty absurd prices.

[swoop]

Which red cars could be in mythic slot?

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Darkenslight]

Which red cars could be in mythic slot?

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Wheel of Fate
Comet Storm
Lightning Storm
Snapcaster Mage
Delver of Secrets

:tongue:

[hymnyou]

Regarding reprints here, let's not forget that Eternal also means Modern.


"Take a step outside time with Eternal Masters. This exciting set lets you draw on some of the most sought-after cards from throughout the history of Magic—some with new artwork—to enhance your Cube or your favorite Commander, Vintage, and Legacy decks."

Modern is not a eternal format. Eternal means all sets are active.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Which red cars could be in mythic slot?


Porsche. I hope for VK 4501 although I doubt it comes in red.

[Maikhell]

Hey guys!
So, I was wondering... do you think is possible that Wizards could put some previous printed "relics" from Reserved List inside random boosters of Eternal Masters, like they did in the first Zendikar?

[thecrav]

It's possible but I doubt that they will. Among other things, the treasures generated hype to buy a new set. EMA will already be high on hype and won't need any help selling out.

[KindGrind]

"Take a step outside time with Eternal Masters. This exciting set lets you draw on some of the most sought-after cards from throughout the history of Magic—some with new artwork—to enhance your Cube or your favorite Commander, Vintage, and Legacy decks."

My bad then!

[jrsthethird]

I think the Grove and Canopy reprints are more likely/overdue than Port, although obviously it's a possible target. As someone mentioned earlier, Port has just been reprinted (Judge Foil), so I'm not sure exactly.

Wasteland was just printed twice in the past two years (2015 Judge Foil and Expedition) and it's back. No reason to discount Port or any other recent special reprint.


Which red cars could be in mythic slot?

Ha.

Sneak Attack
Goblin Guide
Imperial Recruiter
Zodiac Dragon
Rolling Earthquake


"Take a step outside time with Eternal Masters. This exciting set lets you draw on some of the most sought-after cards from throughout the history of Magic—some with new artwork—to enhance your Cube or your favorite Commander, Vintage, and Legacy decks."

Modern is not a eternal format. Eternal means all sets are active.

But Modern-legal Eternal cards will be in the set (most likely Zen fetches, plenty others).