Eldrazi at SCG Philly

[btm10]

This is a topic that's come up indirectly in several deck threads and explicitly in several conversations I've had since the weekend, so a centralized thread seems appropriate. What overall metagame penetration do people expect Eldrazi (all variants) to have at SCG Philly? My personal guess is that it's going to be about 10% of the day 1 field and hold that number into Day 2, largely due to some of the pilots being Modern players who bought 4 Ancient Tombs and aren't familiar enough with Legacy to play the port optimally. I definitely expect to see at least one copy in the top 8, and at least one more in the top 32.

[Koby]

My line is 1 Stompy deck in T8, of which Eldrazi is the most likely variant to succeed.

[H]

Yeah, maybe one in the top 8. Maybe another in the top 16 on just sheer weight of numbers.

Thing is that Legacy decks are generally a lot more consistent than Modern decks. So having a very powerful inconsistent deck in Modern is fine, because your opponents aren't much better off than you are and your power level is higher.

This doesn't fly so much in Legacy, which is why stompy decks of today don't fare so well over time. 15 rounds is an awful grind when you don't have cantrips or anything else to smooth your draw.

[Barook]

This is a topic that's come up indirectly in several deck threads and explicitly in several conversations I've had since the weekend, so a centralized thread seems approproate. What overall metagame penetration do people expect Eldrazi (all variants) to have at SCG Philly? My personal guess is that it's going to be about 10% of the day 1 field and hold that number into Day 2, largely due to some of the pilots being Modern players who bought 4 Ancient Tombs and aren't familiar enough with Legacy to play the port optimally. I definitely expect to see at least one copy in the top 8, and at least one more in the top 32.
Expecting Eldrazi in some form is definitely a good idea for two reasons:

a) It doesn't require duals and can be build in various forms from the Modern versions without many or no RL cards.

b) Everybody wants the bragging right for breaking Eldrazi first.

"Pros" like Hoogland or now Jim Davis are streaming Legacy Eldrazi, so there are people working on it.

I do think that the "right" build has potential to be Tier 1 since it's much more consistent than other Stompy decks and it wrecks most other blue decks with the right build.

[Tammit67]

Decks I'm looking to be prepared beat for me going into SCG Philly are:
Delver
Miracles
Eldrazi
----------------
Everything else (aka I want to do something that feels powerful to deal with everything else)

I wouldn't play a deck unless I'm comfortable with at least 2 of those 3 matchups at the top

[shocked439]

I think you are overhyping the eldrazi deck. When the modern version was being built and it became obvious how good the deck could be it also became obvious that modern didn't have the answers for an overpowered strategy like eldrazi. Legacy is still the format of stifle, wasteland, daze, and force of will. Do I expect some modern players to sleeve up a deck with freshly acquired ancient tombs, yes. But I don't see how the deck is any more degenerate than the rest of the legacy field. Legacy has turn one kills and turn two kills, it has the answers for overpowered strategies. This might be the most consistent stompy deck, but it's still beatable.

[Ephemeron]

Yeah, maybe one in the top 8. Maybe another in the top 16 on just sheer weight of numbers.

Thing is that Legacy decks are generally a lot more consistent than Modern decks. So having a very powerful inconsistent deck in Modern is fine, because your opponents aren't much better off than you are and your power level is higher.

This doesn't fly so much in Legacy, which is why stompy decks of today don't fare so well over time. 15 rounds is an awful grind when you don't have cantrips or anything else to smooth your draw.

This x 100. I don't want to take anything away from the people innovating the deck right now and putting in the hours but there's a big difference between 5-0'ing a league or 4-0'ing your weekly and going the distance in a 12+ round tournament. The fact that these stompy decks sometimes just lose to themselves is probably the biggest thing holding them back and it's why MUD is also a Tier 2 deck. Maybe being lower to the ground will solve that but Eldrazi is also vulnerable to stuff like Goyf whereas MUD just laughs at that card. It's a trade-off.

If all of a sudden tons of people just decided to start playing MUD I think you'd see your share of 5-0 leagues with that deck too. But I bet a lot of people will be playing it at Philly so I'll say 2-3 in the top 32 with the over/under for top 8 copies set at .5.

[Tammit67]

I think you are overhyping the eldrazi deck. When the modern version was being built and it became obvious how good the deck could be it also became obvious that modern didn't have the answers for an overpowered strategy like eldrazi. Legacy is still the format of stifle, wasteland, daze, and force of will. Do I expect some modern players to sleeve up a deck with freshly acquired ancient tombs, yes. But I don't see how the deck is any more degenerate than the rest of the legacy field. Legacy has turn one kills and turn two kills, it has the answers for overpowered strategies. This might be the most consistent stompy deck, but it's still beatable.

Consistency is the only thing keeping stompy in check IMO. See: Vintage shops.

I'm not saying the deck is good or here to stay, I'm saying I'm expecting to see it because it is threat dense enough to avoid folding to force of will, immune to stifle, often shuts down entire strats with chalice and trinisphere, has the sol lands to play around daze and generally has bigger creatures than most decks. That combined with the deck receiving a lot of attention and is perceived strong leads to more players switching to the deck

[tescrin]

Meh, probably not. Even with sheer numbers. I think it just loses to Shardless (Goyf in Shardless is bigger than everything but Endless, their removal is relevant, Strixes beat everything, they have huge CA advantages, they have faster tempo if they hit Shardless, they are more consistent.) Shardless is also pretty popular.

The thing is, the threads complaining about this deck are largely filled with people who don't care about it. The deck has plenty of openers that aren't explosive and is boardstalled by your typical Goyf or Angler.

They're also (probably) terrible against Burn (which is always everywhere), bad against Moon decks (which are usually hanging around) and despite Thorn/Chalice, are bad against a variety of combo decks. I wouldn't be surprised if Dredge and Shardless performed abnormally well this tourny.

[Stuart]

Meh, probably not. Even with sheer numbers. I think it just loses to Shardless (Goyf in Shardless is bigger than everything but Endless, their removal is relevant, Strixes beat everything, they have huge CA advantages, they have faster tempo if they hit Shardless, they are more consistent.) Shardless is also pretty popular.

The thing is, the threads complaining about this deck are largely filled with people who don't care about it. The deck has plenty of openers that aren't explosive and is boardstalled by your typical Goyf or Angler.

They're also (probably) terrible against Burn (which is always everywhere), bad against Moon decks (which are usually hanging around) and despite Thorn/Chalice, are bad against a variety of combo decks. I wouldn't be surprised if Dredge and Shardless performed abnormally well this tourny.

I agree with most of this, though I wouldn't expect Eldrazi to struggle with Burn*. MUD handles Burn pretty well thanks to cards that Eldrazi also run: Chalice, Trinisphere, etc. And, obviously, if they can tackle Burn, that should go a long ways in helping their standings at SCG Philly.

Interesting to see the Dredge prediction. How's that match for Eldrazi? I would think they could just Sphere them out of the game, but I dunno.


*I've never played with/against Eldrazi Stompy, so take that with several grains of salt.

[Barook]

Meh, probably not. Even with sheer numbers. I think it just loses to Shardless (Goyf in Shardless is bigger than everything but Endless, their removal is relevant, Strixes beat everything, they have huge CA advantages, they have faster tempo if they hit Shardless, they are more consistent.) Shardless is also pretty popular.

The thing is, the threads complaining about this deck are largely filled with people who don't care about it. The deck has plenty of openers that aren't explosive and is boardstalled by your typical Goyf or Angler.

They're also (probably) terrible against Burn (which is always everywhere), bad against Moon decks (which are usually hanging around) and despite Thorn/Chalice, are bad against a variety of combo decks. I wouldn't be surprised if Dredge and Shardless performed abnormally well this tourny.
Shardless is a difficult match-up from what I've seen so far because they run a bunch of problematic cards. But I'm in the Wx Midrange instead of the Aggro Eldrazi camp, which offers better solutions to various of those problems.

Burn depends alot if they hit their PoP or not and if the Eldrazi can deploy their Chalices at the right time. Lifegain from Jitte can also help.

Moon decks depend on how fast they can deploy it (the Wg build has various outs against Moon). I would be more worried about From the Ashes because that card annihilated me twice post-board in the Miracles match-up where Blood Moon was more a nuisance compared to that.

I'd also like to know against what combo decks you think Eldrazi is weak against. Fast Marit Lage in Lands is definitely a problem and I assume Painter is abyssal due to the combination of fast Moon effects AND Painter hosing your mana, while Ensnaring Bridge is another anti-Eldrazi card. From what I've seen in playtesting so far, Storm and Reanimator are favorable and the Sneak & Show match-up is heavily in favor of White Eldrazi due to hate card overload (Karakas, Eldrazi Displacer and Post-SB Containment Priest). Can't really comment on Elves due to not enough playtesting, especially after upping the Priest count. If you want to count Infect as Combo deck, it becomes quite managable with enough Displacers and Jittes in your 75.

The best angles of attack against Eldrazi are problably:
- (fast) Moon effects
- recurring LD (multiple Wastelands, Port, Loam, KotR)
- From the Ashes (one-sided Armageddon in Miracles, definitely a sleeper card)
- roadblocks, e.g. Goyfs, Strix, Mentor, Batterskull, etc.

However, many of those cards are far from unsolvable. I'm merely naming what can hurt alot if not answered.

@Stuart: Dredge seems (very) favorable with the White build, but then again, I run 3 RiP and 3 Priests post-board. Played 2x LED and 2x Manaless Dredge so far, went 3-1 in matches (should have been 4-0, but I completely threw away a match against Manaless due to playing like an idiot with Warping Wail twice, giving away the games I should have won otherwise).
GY-hate aside, Chalice @1 and Sphere effects can also be pretty effective against them.

[MGB]

I fully expect at least 50% of the field to be Eldrazi decks at SCG Philly.

I'm adjusting my MD and SB to combat this menace.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I really hope you are being sarcastic.

[Barook]

I fully expect at least 50% of the field to be Eldrazi decks at SCG Philly.

I'm adjusting my MD and SB to combat this menace.
What the percentage of UR Delver at GP New Jersey at Day 1? That might a rough estimation of people going in with a "budget" deck ported from Modern.

[MGB]

Of course I'm guilty of hyperbole, but the hype that this deck is getting in Legacy now is out of control. Everybody and his grandmother will be like "So i got these Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors and this Modern Eldrazi deck lying around, hey, why don't I register LegacyDrazi at the Open, guys?"

If you're playing Eldrazi at any upcoming Legacy event and you're planning to be "rogue" and take the field by surprise, that ship has long ago sailed. People are going to know exactly what they're playing against and they will probably have specific sideboard options and gameplans for it now.

[hymnyou]

Decks I'm looking to be prepared beat for me going into SCG Philly are:
Delver
Miracles
Eldrazi
----------------
Everything else (aka I want to do something that feels powerful to deal with everything else)

I wouldn't play a deck unless I'm comfortable with at least 2 of those 3 matchups at the top

Lands, NE loves lands.

[tescrin]

reply
I'm hardly an expert on its MUs; so take my guesses with a grain of salt.

Explanation:
* Painter - As you said. They have a bunch of cards that seem very good mained that are the exact kinds of plays that insta-gib the deck. I don't think there's a relevant thing you can do here OTD or OTP without knowing beforehand; and even then; just REBing your lands seems double-amazing. Seems abysmal.

* Dredge - The lack of tutors and cantrips in Eldrazi leaves them more open to being T1'd/T2'd I think. I could be wrong. The white version is certainly better here. Most dredge I face is the LED version; can't speak for GPs.

* Shardless - I think we agreed. Basically everything that shardless does is relevant against the deck while being better at every angle of attack in the midrange fight. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 65 or 70 in their favor, but again, haven't gotten to watch/play it. To busy brewing garbage lol

* Burn - I could see it either way. Basically, how many times did you Tomb yourself and did they draw PoP; as you said.


Other combo you ask? I think the more "T1 oriented" combo decks are well positioned against eldrazi (Tin Fins, TES, Belcher, others?) and that the midrange and Delver MUs (going based off chatter on the forums) are probably pretty even; mostly on the back of inconsistency and a very vulnerable manabase.

I imagine Miracles, Sneakshow, and any other Red Splash will be packing Moons too.

[MGB]

I'm hardly an expert on its MUs; so take my guesses with a grain of salt.

Explanation:
* Painter - As you said. They have a bunch of cards that seem very good mained that are the exact kinds of plays that insta-gib the deck. I don't think there's a relevant thing you can do here OTD or OTP without knowing beforehand; and even then; just REBing your lands seems double-amazing. Seems abysmal.

* Dredge - The lack of tutors and cantrips in Eldrazi leaves them more open to being T1'd/T2'd I think. I could be wrong. The white version is certainly better here. Most dredge I face is the LED version; can't speak for GPs.

* Shardless - I think we agreed. Basically everything that shardless does is relevant against the deck while being better at every angle of attack in the midrange fight. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 65 or 70 in their favor, but again, haven't gotten to watch/play it. To busy brewing garbage lol

* Burn - I could see it either way. Basically, how many times did you Tomb yourself and did they draw PoP; as you said.


Other combo you ask? I think the more "T1 oriented" combo decks are well positioned against eldrazi (Tin Fins, TES, Belcher, others?) and that the midrange and Delver MUs (going based off chatter on the forums) are probably pretty even; mostly on the back of inconsistency and a very vulnerable manabase.

I imagine Miracles, Sneakshow, and any other Red Splash will be packing Moons too.


From my testing with the deck online, Lands seems like a brutal matchup for Eldrazi because they have Wastelock and Eldrazi can't effectively answer Marit Lage; both Sneak'n'Show and Reanimator are problematic matchups because Eldrazi can't race Griselbrand/Emrakul.

[Barook]

From my testing with the deck online, Lands seems like a brutal matchup for Eldrazi because they have Wastelock and Eldrazi can't effectively answer Marit Lage; both Sneak'n'Show and Reanimator are problematic matchups because Eldrazi can't race Griselbrand/Emrakul.
Wastelock and fast Marit Lage are definitely huge problems for Eldrazi, which makes it one of its worst match-ups. The best way to handle Marit Lage is Displacer since they need to kill it first. Karakas is okay, but can easily be Wasted or Ported.

I can imagine that the Mono C struggles alot with Sneak & Show and Reanimator alot since it lacks the outs white has. And not all Mono C versions run Endbringer, which seems slow.


IOther combo you ask? I think the more "T1 oriented" combo decks are well positioned against eldrazi (Tin Fins, TES, Belcher, others?) and that the midrange and Delver MUs (going based off chatter on the forums) are probably pretty even; mostly on the back of inconsistency and a very vulnerable manabase.
Tin Fins and Belcher sound like matches decided mainly by the dice roll. Haven't encountered TES yet, only ANT.

[tescrin]

Given that it is apparently Lands/D&T that are good against it, do we expect other Port/Wasteland decks to maybe do well at some point? If Eldrazi did well, could Goblins be a thing!? Old-Style Merfolk!?

I would laugh heartily if the Eldrazi are what made goblins playable

[Stuart]

Given that it is apparently Lands/D&T that are good against it, do we expect other Port/Wasteland decks to maybe do well at some point? If Eldrazi did well, could Goblins be a thing!? Old-Style Merfolk!?

I would laugh heartily if the Eldrazi are what made goblins playable

That, or Belcher takes over Legacy :laugh:! If it beats Eldrazi and the decks that are well-positioned against Eldrazi . . .

. . . alternatively, Eldrazi just becomes a new deck with a normal share of the field, and everyone else keeps playing normal decks.

[bruizar]

That, or Belcher takes over Legacy :laugh:! If it beats Eldrazi and the decks that are well-positioned against Eldrazi . . .

. . . alternatively, Eldrazi just becomes a new deck with a normal share of the field, and everyone else keeps playing normal decks.

Goblins was my only loss last weekend with Eldrazi. Savage f***ng ports

[jrsthethird]

given that it is apparently lands/d&t that are good against it, do we expect other port/wasteland decks to maybe do well at some point? If eldrazi did well, could goblins be a thing!? Old-style merfolk!?

I would laugh heartily if the eldrazi are what made goblins playable

oh please happen.

[Tokugawa]

Given that it is apparently Lands/D&T that are good against it, do we expect other Port/Wasteland decks to maybe do well at some point? If Eldrazi did well, could Goblins be a thing!? Old-Style Merfolk!?

I would laugh heartily if the Eldrazi are what made goblins playable

Miracles is an undoubtedly dtb now, and have won so many trophies in main events.

Goblins has a very good matchup against Miracles, about 80-20, or better.

But, did Miracles made Goblins more popular? ....No.

If Miracles cannot do that ,how could Eldrazis do?

[Lemnear]

Miracles is an undoubtedly dtb now, and have won so many trophies in main events.

Goblins has a very good matchup against Miracles, about 80-20, or better.

But, did Miracles made Goblins more popular? ....No.

If Miracles cannot do that ,how could Eldrazis do?

Eldrazi Stomly can beat combo decks unlike Goblins. Imo you are looking at Miracles/Goblins/Eldrazi/D&T from the wrong side

[GundamGuy]

I don't understand peoples fascination with brewing a 2nd rate Eldrazi deck when a first rate Eldrazi deck already exists in Legacy.

Also I think tescrin's analysis of the Eldrzi's worst matchups seem the most on point.

Painter seems really bad for them, between the Blood Moons, and Painter's Servants incidental splash damage seems really high...

[Crimhead]

Meh, probably not. Even with sheer numbers. I think it just loses to Shardless (Goyf in Shardless is bigger than everything but Endless, their removal is relevant, Strixes beat everything, they have huge CA advantages, they have faster tempo if they hit Shardless, they are more consistent.) Shardless is also pretty popular.
I would think Shardless is not a bad MU for Shops. An early Your is no match for TKS. A late Goyf is still beat by Endless One and often Mimic, Smasher, and Endbringer (getting your up to 5/6 isn't always easy). TKS likes to exile Goyf, and Endbringer totally stymies it. Every other creature is just a chump blocker.

Shops runs more lock pieces that BUG runs counters, so often they'll stick. 60% of the Eldrazis dodge AD and can mostly only be killed by combat damage. Cavern hoses counter-magic. 4x Wasteland with no recursion is no match for 14-16 sol lands.

Maybe this match goes to Shardless, but I cant imagine by a very wide margin!


I don't understand peoples fascination with brewing a 2nd rate Eldrazi deck when a first rate Eldrazi deck already exists in Legacy...

...Painter seems really bad for them, between the Blood Moons, and Painter's Servants incidental splash damage seems really high...You mean 12 post? The mana base for that deck is a lot more fragile, and the mana demand is much greater. Post also lacks the disruption. Shops looks like a much stronger deck to me.

Either way, 12 Post hasn't made that big a splash. Maybe the deck is weak, maybe it is just not played much on account of being unpopular and needing Candelabras? Shops may yet have much bigger impact. Also it is more affordable and should be way more popular (thanks to Modern port overs).

Painter is a bad MU (and also great vs Lands - another deck that could see a rise in play reacting to Shops). Maybe if Shops becomes big, Painter might force it out. But then what? If Shops is forced out, Painter will decline - and then Shops can rise again.

This is what a healthy meta should look like - cyclic. Right now Miracles has no tier one matches which are abyssmal. If Shops becomes tier one that will no longer be the case. This would make the meta a lot more fluid and dynamic; and meta-gaming would become trickier more significant. Will this happen? Maybe not, but it sems like a real possibility. I think that is why people are so fascinated.

[Barook]

WOW. Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR new articles today on starcitygames.com about Eldrazi in in Legacy:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32467_They-Arent-Stopping-With-Modern.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32461_The-Eldrazi-Invade-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32464_Going-Medium-Eldrazi-In-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32466_Good-Guy-Death-And-Taxes.html

It's obvious that EVERYBODY has their sights set on the deck in Legacy now. If you're playing Eldrazi in Legacy, you have zero element of surprise now.
The hype around this deck is ridiculous, although it's just SCG shilling with low-quality articles to sell more cards before Philly.

I wouldn't be suprised if it shows up in force now.

[iatee]

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-league-2016-02-24#paper

It's not like it's putting up zero results. It's hard to know how many people are playing it, and you would expect it to be over represented as a cheaper deck. But it clearly has proven itself as a viable legacy deck at this point.

[MGB]

So semi-related question, regarding SCG philly for those who are attending:

On Starcitygames' website it says that they're holding it in "Floor G, Hall G". I've been to the Philly Convention Center thrice now and have not seen anything held in "Floor G, Hall G". On the Convention Center Floor Plan map it has no mention of such a Hall either.

Does anyone on here who is planning to go, or who has been to this convention center before know where exactly "Floor G, Hall G" is located? It's a big convention center and it's easy to waste time wandering around looking for a certain room, so I'd kind of like to know beforehand if at all possible.

[btm10]

I would think Shardless is not a bad MU for Shops. An early Your is no match for TKS. A late Goyf is still beat by Endless One and often Mimic, Smasher, and Endbringer (getting your up to 5/6 isn't always easy). TKS likes to exile Goyf, and Endbringer totally stymies it. Every other creature is just a chump blocker.

Shops runs more lock pieces that BUG runs counters, so often they'll stick. 60% of the Eldrazis dodge AD and can mostly only be killed by combat damage. Cavern hoses counter-magic. 4x Wasteland with no recursion is no match for 14-16 sol lands.

Maybe this match goes to Shardless, but I cant imagine by a very wide margin!


I can't speak for the Eldrazi variants that splash for Displacer, but I've played the Shardless/colorless Eldrazi matchup a bunch (from the Shardless side) and it's conservatively 60/40 in Shardless's favor. Most of their lock pieces are middling against you, Endless One dies to Decay no matter how big it is, getting Goyf to 5/6 is trivial, Strix is amazing, Liliana is a huge disaster for them if she sticks around more than one turn, and even midgame Wastelands are usually good. If you have early discard, it's easy to punch a hole in their hand, too.

[jrsthethird]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=31&type=card

[Ace/Homebrew]

It's a big convention center and it's easy to waste time wandering around looking for a certain room, so I'd kind of like to know beforehand if at all possible.
The people wearing blazers are employees. I intend to ask one of them. :wink:

[H]

So semi-related question, regarding SCG philly for those who are attending:

On Starcitygames' website it says that they're holding it in "Floor G, Hall G". I've been to the Philly Convention Center thrice now and have not seen anything held in "Floor G, Hall G". On the Convention Center Floor Plan map it has no mention of such a Hall either.

Does anyone on here who is planning to go, or who has been to this convention center before know where exactly "Floor G, Hall G" is located? It's a big convention center and it's easy to waste time wandering around looking for a certain room, so I'd kind of like to know beforehand if at all possible.

I'm pretty sure it refers to Exhibit Hall G. Just enter on the Broad Street and Arch entrance, it will be street level.

[swoop]

Eldrazi mimic>meeekstone

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[H]

Eldrazi mimic>meeekstone

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Endbringer too, although it still does something, but not much...

[Poron]

If the goal is to buy time Forcefield is probably the best answer.

[MaximumC]

If the goal is to buy time Forcefield is probably the best answer.

Eh... is there any oxygen for that card? Meekstone comes down faster, and Ensnaring Bridge protects you better.

[Delvis]

There may be a significant amount of players trying to port their Modern decks to Legacy. If you face one of these, you shouldn't struggle too much. They'll be in way over their head. Unless they get a nut draw, of course - which seems to be what most people on The Source think of the Eldrazi deck in general, that it only wins with god draws. They couldn't be more wrong, but it's their own grave they're digging. I've given up trying to convince people not to dismiss the deck.

The Eldrazi players you should worry about are the ones who play Legacy regularly, know the format better than their immediate family, and have been brewing and testing for around a month to optimize the list. We exist. Members of our group have been playing this deck in tournaments 3-4 times per week for the last month. I think that at least 1 Eldrazi player will make Top 8, but I'd take the over if the O/U is 1.

Sadly, it won't be me. I don't have the funds to make the trip - I spent all my money buying the deck. :P


Eh... is there any oxygen for that card? Meekstone comes down faster, and Ensnaring Bridge protects you better.

Forcefield is also vulnerable to Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker.

[square_two]

It has come across as being very consistent to me, facing it online. I would anticipate at least one in top 8.

Bad time, I'm learning, to try to get into Sylvan Plug. :cry:

[Poron]

Eldrazis are too big for a Meekstone to be effective.
They just become burns on a stick.
At the fourth they drop you're dead anyway.

Also, Chalice of the void is a card.

May be Mentor for chump blocking + Meekstone for tempo gain but.. how do we lock them out? mm

Ulamog, Cavern and Karakas give them inevitability

[btm10]

There may be a significant amount of players trying to port their Modern decks to Legacy. If you face one of these, you shouldn't struggle too much. They'll be in way over their head. Unless they get a nut draw, of course - which seems to be what most people on The Source think of the Eldrazi deck in general, that it only wins with god draws. They couldn't be more wrong, but it's their own grave they're digging. I've given up trying to convince people not to dismiss the deck.

The Eldrazi players you should worry about are the ones who play Legacy regularly, know the format better than their immediate family, and have been brewing and testing for around a month to optimize the list. We exist. Members of our group have been playing this deck in tournaments 3-4 times per week for the last month. I think that at least 1 Eldrazi player will make Top 8, but I'd take the over if the O/U is 1.


I think this is about right. Eldrazi's most difficult tier 1 matchups are D&T, Lands, Shardless, and 4c Loam, and I don't think any of those are unwinnable. I gave my guess in the OP, but if people write the deck off and Storm and Miracles show up in force we could easily see 2 or more copies in the top 8.

[Varal]

It's mostly just elf and D&T that may play Meekstone and they both have infinite blockers.

[iamajellydonut]

D&T ... infinite blockers.

mmmm tell me more!

[out51d3r]

Meekstone is an old pet card of mine from the 4th edition days, so it was actually one of the first things I thought of when it comes to dealing with Eldrazi. Unfortunately though, I can't see it working for a couple reasons. It will often be countered by Chalice, and it's useless against Eldrazi mimic. They'll keep untapping, and going in big every time the Eldrazi player puts another fatty into play.

Due to chalice, it would be my instinct to look for 2 mana cards to fight Eldrazi. You need to get something online fast, but you also need to get it past chalice.

[phonics]

Time to bust out some Peace Talks and Peacekeeper. A small black dude drawing triangles in the ground will stop the onslaught of eldrazi!

[lordofthepit]

http://i.imgur.com/AcoXEC7.png

[Dice_Box]

Hey, I have been stomping people with a big ass testicle monster for more than a year. These pretenders come onto the scene and all of a sudden our Dark Mistress is not worthy of your fear or respect? You fear this unwashed, untested rabble more than our most unholy? I expected better from all of you.

(Fuck I hope this deck becomes a thing. I want to stomp it so hard...)

[ironclad8690]

Shardless player here, if anyone is wondering about the matchup it is very slanted in Shardless's favor. How slanted? 10-0 in matches slanted (from results in the MTGO Leagues). I played against Jim Davis the other day and accidentally skipped my 2nd turn g1, still won the game, still won the match. Lost game 2, but only because of a very below average draw past ~ turn 5.

[KevinTrudeau]

Having recently checked in with the Philadelphia Convention Center, I am here to warn people NOT to enter Floor G, Hall G as per StarCityGames.com. Hope everyone enjoys a nice weekend of M:tG!

[Crimhead]

Will there be coverage for this event? If so, when does it begin?

[thecrav]

Having recently checked in with the Philadelphia Convention Center, I am here to warn people NOT to enter Floor G, Hall G as per StarCityGames.com. Hope everyone enjoys a nice weekend of M:tG!

Oh c'mon, you can't say that and not tell us what it is!

[Dice_Box]

Will there be coverage for this event? If so, when does it begin?Stream Information: Stream starts at 10:30 EST

[Crimhead]

Thanks Dice! Is this on Twitch? Usually I only watch footage after the fact, but I'm pretty psyched to see what happens this weekend!

[Barook]

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive

Here you go.

[Dice_Box]

It begins. DnT v Shardless.

DnT wins. 2-0.

[Crimhead]

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive

Here you go.
Thank you sir!

[Fox]

Shardless player here, if anyone is wondering about the matchup it is very slanted in Shardless's favor. How slanted? 10-0 in matches slanted (from results in the MTGO Leagues). I played against Jim Davis the other day and accidentally skipped my 2nd turn g1, still won the game, still won the match. Lost game 2, but only because of a very below average draw past ~ turn 5.
I think this matchup is only in your favor due to less than optimal eldrazi deck construction, though it probably swings back in your favor once we see the new madness cards. Once you start seeing winter orbs and no eldrazi temples, you'll know you're looking at the real deal - I don't think mimic is gonna be in the lists much longer, endless one may be, and TKS will be the core card...so temple's days are probably numbered.

Of the eldrazi you faced, how many were abjectly wrong? (matter reshapers, trinispheres, SSGs)

[Dice_Box]

Of the eldrazi you faced, how many were abjectly wrong? (matter reshapers, trinispheres, SSGs)
I would like to see some evidence before I would let someone say that something is abjectly wrong. I think right now you should state that in your opinion it is wrong but the jury is still out.

[Fox]

I would like to see some evidence before I would let someone say that something is abjectly wrong. I think right now you should state that in your opinion it is wrong but the jury is still out.
I would direct you to the eldrazi thread. Sufficed to say eye + trinispere is the opposite of a combo. Matter Reshaper doesn't go in the same deck as chalice (you need 1-cost deck manipulation, or you just drew and cast a chump blocker). The three mana point in this deck is largely devoid of meaningful plays, and with access to up to 12 sol lands [not temple], SSG is a dead card if you don't have 2x sol land/ssg/smasher in opening hand (vs no wasteland). This deck is about 2cmc (prison) - 4cmc (tks) - 5/6+ cmc (inevitability) in its colorless iteration.

[Finn]

I would direct you to the eldrazi thread. Sufficed to say eye + trinispere is the opposite of a combo. Matter Reshaper doesn't go in the same deck as chalice (you need 1-cost deck manipulation, or you just drew and cast a chump blocker). The three mana point in this deck is largely devoid of meaningful plays, and with access to up to 12 sol lands [not temple], SSG is a dead card if you don't have 2x sol land/ssg/smasher in opening hand (vs no wasteland). This deck is about 2cmc (prison) - 4cmc (tks) - 5/6+ cmc (inevitability) in its colorless iteration.

Fox, that is a very helpful post for those of us who are watching this unfold from the outside. Thank you.

[Dice_Box]

Not going to say I totally agree, but it will be interesting to see where it lands. Also Matter Reshaper gives you a form of Card Advantage, as does Chalice, I see no issue having them together. That's like saying do not run Silvergill and Chalice together.

[Finn]

Not going to say I totally agree, but it will be interesting to see where it lands. Also Matter Reshaper gives you a form of Card Advantage, as does Chalice, I see no issue having them together. That's like saying do not run Silvergill and Chalice together.

I think Shardless Agent and Daze is a closer comparison. The problem is that you end up with a free Chalice of the Void as the top card and you paid zero for X. I agree with him. That is a major internal consistency issue that can't remain. I wonder if Scroll Rack is of use here. I can't think of any colorless goodies to use with it to make it valuable enough though. There aren't even shuffle effects.

[Dice_Box]

You can just put the Chalice in your hand...

[nevilshute]

So, Matter Reshaper says "you may" put it on to the battlefield, so if you hit an Endless One or a Chalice you don't have to put it on to the battlefield. You can just draw that chalice and it's still card advantage.

[Finn]

Yeah, it says "may". Well, then...I don't see the problem either. That makes Matter Reshaper a much better card.

Fox, is there some issue with it just not being as efficient? Does this only become apparent with lots of practice?

[Dice_Box]

Boswell does not know this format at all. Its not at all fun to hear him try and correct Chris time and time again only to be told he is wrong.

[CptHaddock]

Boswell does not know this format at all. Its not at all fun to hear him try and correct Chris time and time again only to be told he is wrong.

Yeah the commentary is pretty bleh. One can't go a sentence without saying show and tell, and the other likes talking a lot but not saying very much.

[Megadeus]

"What deck would you play?"
"Sneak and Show"

"What match up do you want to see?"
"Sneak and Show Mirror"

My favorite was VanMeter asking the other dude about eternal masters:
So they said no reserve list cards will be reprinted in EMA, what card do you want to see reprinted?
"Chains of Mephistopheles"

I hate them

[twndomn]

ah ha ha ha~..., round 4, double Price of Progress, take 24. Eldrazi's pile of money can just die to Budget Burn in Legacy.

[Eldariel]

ah ha ha ha~..., round 4, double Price of Progress, take 24. Eldrazi's pile of money can just die to Budget Burn in Legacy.

Yeah, though that was horribly played from the Eldrazi player. There's absolutely no reason to play into PoP in that scenario as PoP in there is one of the few ways Burn wins (Smash to Smithereens being the other big candidate): the chances of getting to Eye of Ugin activation mana alive on a board where a single PoP knocks you to 1 is just ridiculously low. The G1 was a thing of beauty tho; the Burn-player knew his role in the match-up and played to his outs and was rewarded.

And yeah, the commentary leaves a lot to be desired, but that's hardly surprising. They have nobody there who knows the history of the format and hell, even their idea of the present state seems to be kinda out there (especially match-up evaluations). It seems like this cast treats the SCG tournament series as the genesis of Legacy - not surprising given their affiliation but not exactly truthful either.

[Tokugawa]

Gerry Thompson get 5-0 now, with a MoxD-version Eldrazi deck.

[Gheizen64]

Gerry Thompson get 5-0 now, with a MoxD-version Eldrazi deck.

He got lucky that game pairing vs an extremely fragile combo deck.

[ironclad8690]

I think this matchup is only in your favor due to less than optimal eldrazi deck construction, though it probably swings back in your favor once we see the new madness cards. Once you start seeing winter orbs and no eldrazi temples, you'll know you're looking at the real deal - I don't think mimic is gonna be in the lists much longer, endless one may be, and TKS will be the core card...so temple's days are probably numbered.

Of the eldrazi you faced, how many were abjectly wrong? (matter reshapers, trinispheres, SSGs)

Hm, guess I have been playing against inferior/abjectly wrong versions. I have not yet seen a trinisphere, I have seen plenty of matter reshaper and SSGs. I was not aware that another version without Eldrazi Temple existed, but I can't imagine the matchup is much worse. I could be wrong :tongue:

[Barook]

According to Twitter, #1 and #2 after 7 rounds are Eldrazi decks. Total Eldrazi % in the field would still be interesting, though.

[Negator77']

According to Twitter, #1 and #2 after 7 rounds are Eldrazi decks. Total Eldrazi % in the field would still be interesting, though.

There seemed to be a good amount of Eldrazi floating around. Sat next to several on the day for the little that's worth.

[Fox]

Yeah, it says "may". Well, then...I don't see the problem either. That makes Matter Reshaper a much better card.

Fox, is there some issue with it just not being as efficient? Does this only become apparent with lots of practice?
A large problem for this deck is tarmogoyf, which becomes a 5/6 once they decay an artifact (land/creature/sorcery/instant). Matter Reshaper can draw a card if it dies, but all it's doing is chumping a goyf for a turn (1-for-0 but then you get a blind draw). I think people see the conditional draw and think this is like baleful strix; except that it doesn't trade well. Yes the deck needs something between revokers and TKS (assuming no shapers nor mimics), and maybe right now it is still endless one. The deck has amazing prison starts that can turn into crippling T2 TKS (or more 2-drop lock pieces), and all it really needs is a gameplan that lets it survive to the inevitability engine (if the game isn't already over).

[Dice_Box]

"The deck has a weakness" is not a good enough reason to flat say a single card is bad or that it should be running less Sol lands. You know non basic Lands has a weakness to Moon. Does that mean I should not play Dark Depths?

[Chatto]

According to Twitter, #1 and #2 after 7 rounds are Eldrazi decks. Total Eldrazi % in the field would still be interesting, though.

That means three Eldrazi we know of in the top 8 (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3713_end_of_day_1_standings_.html), not knowing what else there is in store for us.

[Barook]

That means three Eldrazi we know of in the top 8 (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3713_end_of_day_1_standings_.html), not knowing what else there is in store for us.
You realize that there's still Day 2, right? Unless you assume that the field percentage would carry on to the Top 8 - and I doubt we have close to 40% Eldrazi in the Day 2 field.

[Chatto]

You realize that there's still Day 2, right? Unless you assume that the field percentage would carry on to the Top 8 - and I doubt we have close to 40% Eldrazi in the Day 2 field.

Yeah, it says standings after day one, and besides I never mentioned anything about final standings. Silly Barook, read before you ask me weird questions.

EDIT: I do see how my poor lack of words in my first post would indicate otherwise. But no, I am fully aware of the coming day.

[Seraphix]

Eldrazi mirror at 8-1 each?

WE MODERN NOW LADS

[Fox]

"The deck has a weakness" is not a good enough reason to flat say a single card is bad or that it should be running less Sol lands. You know non basic Lands has a weakness to Moon. Does that mean I should not play Dark Depths?
What I'm saying is that [unlike modern] the deck isn't winning because it can alpha strike with a mimic and smasher, it's winrate is more directly tied to landing lock pieces. You can agree or disagree with that analysis, but if my assessment is right then Eldrazi Temple is a card that should probably be cut, accompanied with a thinning of the eldrazi that aren't TKS (especially at the low end). A 1-to-1 replacement of Temple for Crystal Vein will lead to more consistent 2 mana starts without having to destroy your opening hand (and future draws) with mox diamond or SSG.

[Crimhead]

Eldrazi mirror at 8-1 each?

WE MODERN NOW LADS
Blasphemy! Feature match was Grixis Tempo vs Miracles. We are not Modern.

WTF mirror match? We all want to see how Shop fares vs the established decks - not vs itself. :mad:

[Lemnear]

Blasphemy! Feature match was Grixis Tempo vs Miracles. We are not Modern.

WTF mirror match? We all want to see how Shop fares vs the established decks - not vs itself. :mad:

Come on. SCG just bought up all the stuff for the deck in the last 6 weeks and now promotes the deck non-stop.

[Gheizen64]

What I'm saying is that [unlike modern] the deck isn't winning because it can alpha strike with a mimic and smasher, it's winrate is more directly tied to landing lock pieces. You can agree or disagree with that analysis, but if my assessment is right then Eldrazi Temple is a card that should probably be cut, accompanied with a thinning of the eldrazi that aren't TKS (especially at the low end). A 1-to-1 replacement of Temple for Crystal Vein will lead to more consistent 2 mana starts without having to destroy your opening hand (and future draws) with mox diamond or SSG.

How is a turn one crystal vein for 2 better for ur mana development than a spirit guide?? Not to talk about wastelands being absurd If u play saclands and moxens

[Fox]

How is a turn one crystal vein for 2 better for ur mana development than a spirit guide?? Not to talk about wastelands being absurd If u play saclands and moxens
Again, read the eldrazi thread, or previous posts in this thread. I advocate crucibles/winter orbs in the main and null rods in the board. I think it is a critical mistake to pass on having 6 mana per turn to each 1 an opponent would have (eye+ancient tomb+playing vein from the yard).

[Barook]

Eldrazi was the most popular deck with 9 people on it in Day 2, followed up by Lands (!) and Miracles. How many people total made it to Day 2?

Let's see how the meta is going to change due to this.

I, for one, welcome our new Eldrazi Overlords!

[Tokugawa]

Eldrazi was the most popular deck with 9 people on it in Day 2, followed up by Lands (!) and Miracles. How many people total made it to Day 2?

Let's see how the meta is going to change due to this.

I, for one, welcome our new Eldrazi Overlords!

64 players advanced to Day2.

[Barook]

Full metagame breakdown (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3715_day_2_metagame_breakdown_.html)

Still suprised by the number of Lands player, but given it destroys Eldrazi, it makes alot of sense.

[Bobmans]

Eldrazi, i hope the nr's grow further and get Eldrazi banned in april.

[Koby]

Largest representation in Day 2 is 9/64 Eldrazi, followed by Miracles, Lands, and UR/x Delver variants.

I want a refund.

[Dice_Box]

I feel like this is the Deathblade meta after TNN was printed. In time it will work itself out but people want to play with the new toys.

[Rivfader]

Full metagame breakdown (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3715_day_2_metagame_breakdown_.html)

Still suprised by the number of Lands player, but given it destroys Eldrazi, it makes alot of sense.

What amazes me most is the absence of combo, 7 on a total of 64 (not counting 4 infect). Where they all eaten by the Eldrazi day 1?

[iostream]

What amazes me most is the absence of combo, 7 on a total of 64 (not counting 4 infect). Where they all eaten by the Eldrazi day 1?
Eldrazi does pretty well versus the slower combo decks. It might be time to dust off Reanimator or Belcher or something.

[Barook]

Eldrazi does pretty well versus the slower combo decks. It might be time to dust off Reanimator or Belcher or something.
If Reanimator becomes a thing again, I could see the white-based Eldrazi version becoming more popular since it has alot of tech vs it.

Belcher is pretty much a coin flip since it comes down whether they can kill you T1 or you can jam down your disruption artifacts T1.

Which reminds me of this:

Other combo you ask? I think the more "T1 oriented" combo decks are well positioned against eldrazi (Tin Fins, TES, Belcher, others?)

He got lucky that game pairing vs an extremely fragile combo deck.

On a different note:

Eldrazi, i hope the nr's grow further and get Eldrazi banned in april.
In Modern? Yes. In Legacy? Nope, not going to happen, reasonable counterplay exists. If some of the overabundant blue cantrip decks are thrown under the Eldrazi bus in the meantime - the more, the merrier. :wink: Suprisingly enough, it's more the nonblue decks that give Eldrazi trouble (e.g. Lands, D&T, Burn, etc.).

"Only" 50% Brainstorm decks on Day 2. That has been unheard of since forever. Welcome back to 2011!

[twndomn]

rock-paper-scissor meta incoming

Eldrazi > Miracles
Miracles > Lands
Lands > Eldrazi

[Dice_Box]

Miracles > Lands
If you know what you are doing as a Lands player that's a complex game but not a straight shoot for Miracles.

[Barook]

I'm more suprised that Shardless BUG wasn't doing better. They should be slightly favored vs. Eldrazi. Maybe they suffered from splash hate against Eldrazi (Moon effects etc.)?

[swoop]

Where is aluren?

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Chatto]

Who the hell have permission to these guys to comment? David Long could get his first Top8?

[rufus]

Who the hell have permission to these guys to comment? David Long could get his first Top8?

Yeah, Patrick is missed.

[Zllig]

Who the hell have permission to these guys to comment? David Long could get his first Top8?

Yeah, this has been terrible to listen to all weekend. These two are a match made in Hell.

[Fox]

Yeah, this has been terrible to listen to all weekend. These two are a match made in Hell.
No one starts out at the top of their shout-casting game (I think that's the right term for announcing a stream as 3rd party). Not sure what's gained by almost-personal attacks without constructive criticism or a pattern of non-improvement covering successive events. I'm pretty sure they'll already feel pretty embarrassed when they review their coverage, without comments like this on forums they may use.

[Finn]

Oh yay. we get to see Joe and Tom again.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Chatto]

No one starts out at the top of their shout-casting game (I think that's the right term for announcing a stream as 3rd party). Not sure what's gained by almost-personal attacks without constructive criticism or a pattern of non-improvement covering successive events. I'm pretty sure they'll already feel pretty embarrassed when they review their coverage, without comments like this on forums they may use.

Well, they at least could take some time to get into the Legacy-scene, before getting into the booth. And no, it's nothing personal, but come on! We're used to some pretty good commentators, who know the scene, know the decks.

[Tantarus]

Tom Ross has made the top 8 a lot better! Crazy games.

[JamieW89]

Oh yay. we get to see Joe and Tom again.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Thankfully so. Tom played a pretty sweet game-3.

[Barook]

Infect Jesus strikes again.

Top 8 is: Rich Cali, David Long, Eli Kassis, Harlan Firer, Gerry Thompson, Tom Ross, Noah Walker, Louis Bachaud

Long is on Lands, Gerry Thompson on Eldrazi, Ross on Infect. Anybody knows the rest?

[Gheizen64]

Kassis is on a UR delver list with Set Adrift

[Douif]

Harlan Firer is on Eldrazi and Noah Walker on Grixis Delver if I am not wrong.

[HammerAndSickled]

Rich Cali is miracles too iirc

[Eldariel]

Thankfully so. Tom played a pretty sweet game-3.

Joe played a great game too. It was a pleasure to watch. Though the hype from the casters was way over the top; the things they were commenting on were pretty much par de course for said match-up - pick your fights at the right phases and maximize your outs. The true mark of a master is in the calculations you don't see but we hardly hear any speculation on what the players' plans are or why they are doing what they're doing. Also, the ease with which the casters ignored the existence of Countertop when suggesting that Tom "can just win right now" was...weird. Overall, it seems like they often forget/miss stuff on the table. There was an earlier game where Needle had been on Inkmoth all game and they spent a couple of turns wondering why Ross Crop Rotationed it away instead of blocking with it. Certainly a lot to sharpen up on - bring in a proper color commentator with in-game mastery and it'd hopefully get a lot more interesting.

EDIT: Tho it's worth noting that the extra topping he did before tapping the Top might've cost him the game (he was looking for a 1-drop of course so it's sensible). That one mana would've been a big deal in the ensuing exchange.

[Bobmans]

In Modern? Yes. In Legacy? Nope, not going to happen, reasonable counterplay exists. If some of the overabundant blue cantrip decks are thrown under the Eldrazi bus in the meantime - the more, the merrier. :wink: Suprisingly enough, it's more the nonblue decks that give Eldrazi trouble (e.g. Lands, D&T, Burn, etc.).

"Only" 50% Brainstorm decks on Day 2. That has been unheard of since forever. Welcome back to 2011!

The fact that Eldrazi pushes on Miracles and Brainstorm on overall concerns me more actually. A deck with that kind of power must be overpowered. The deck is getting results now and more people will pick it up. It will have more impact then it has now. Lists have yet to be streamlined and already it is doing well. I doubt that the effect on the meta is what we want on the long run. Or maybe i am just afraid of change.

[Eldariel]

The fact that Eldrazi pushes on Miracles and Brainstorm on overall concerns me more actually. A deck with that kind of power must be overpowered. The deck is getting results now and more people will pick it up. It will have more impact then it has now. Lists have yet to be streamlined and already it is doing well. I doubt that the effect on the meta is what we want on the long run. Or maybe i am just afraid of change.

Overpowered or just really well-positioned to fight said strategies. It's essentially a more explosive Chalice Stompy-deck, an archetype that always preyed on Brainstorm. Giving it more double lands and some really powerful creatures (Thoughtknot Seer most importantly) is naturally going to reinforce the strategy and thus potentially raise it into a pillar of the format to counteract the condensed curve low mana cantrip decks.

[Dice_Box]

The fact that Eldrazi pushes on Miracles and Brainstorm on overall concerns me more actually. A deck with that kind of power must be overpowered. The deck is getting results now and more people will pick it up. It will have more impact then it has now. Lists have yet to be streamlined and already it is doing well. I doubt that the effect on the meta is what we want on the long run. Or maybe i am just afraid of change.
It's Stoneblade V2. You know, that unstoppable deck after TNN was printed that no one plays anymore?

[Barook]

Or maybe i am just afraid of change.
2/3+ of the format being blue should have never become the norm in the first place. Punishing blue cantrip strategies while also promoting nonblue strategies (which counter Eldrazi) is exactly where the format wants to be. The metagame was stale as a fart before OGW. A shake-up is a welcome change.

Only if Eldrazi became 20+% of the metagame permanently, I would start to become worried.

[mistercakes]

2/3+ of the format being blue should have never become the norm in the first place. Punishing blue cantrip strategies while also promoting nonblue strategies (which counter Eldrazi) is exactly where the format wants to be. The metagame was stale as a fart before OGW. A shake-up is a welcome change.

Only if Eldrazi became 20+% of the metagame permanently, I would start to become worried.

i agree here. people should be happy that they can play decks that don't get slaughtered by chalice. also - i remember that merfolk felt very favored when playing stax decks a few years ago. it would be nice to see an uptick in merfolk decks too. (a blue deck without the obligatory 12 cantrips)

[bruizar]

3 enchantress decks day 2'd. There was a lot of diversity today. I like that blue has to sweat a little bit for their wins now. Only leaves the better blue pilots on the top tables.

[Crimhead]

rock-paper-scissor meta incoming

Eldrazi > Miracles
Miracles > Lands
Lands > EldraziIf it were that simple RUG Lands is looking pretty good.

[simdude]

3 enchantress decks day 2'd. There was a lot of diversity today. I like that blue has to sweat a little bit for their wins now. Only leaves the better blue pilots on the top tables.

Sadly none of us could convert this into top 32. I finished at 46th and will be writing out a bit more in the enchantress thread later but I've put my list there for now.

I'm strongly inclined to agree the diversity is great but I still feel like that's because people don't just jump ship on decks they've invested into and been playing forever to what's probably the "best deck".

[bruizar]

Sadly none of us could convert this into top 32. I finished at 46th and will be writing out a bit more in the enchantress thread later but I've put my list there for now.

I'm strongly inclined to agree the diversity is great but I still feel like that's because people don't just jump ship on decks they've invested into and been playing forever to what's probably the "best deck".

I'm really looking forward to reading your experiences, especially against Eldrazi. I'm sure the Eldrazi elephants walked on a lot of Elephant Grass these last 2 days. Congratulations on your finish.



rock-paper-scissor meta incoming

Eldrazi > Miracles
Miracles > Lands
Lands > Eldrazi

I fear this may be an oversimplification, but correct none the less

[Crimhead]

I'm strongly inclined to agree the diversity is great but I still feel like that's because people don't just jump ship on decks they've invested into and been playing forever to what's probably the "best deck".
If everybody did this, that wouldn't be the best deck anymore! A deck is only the best deck because it has overall good MUs against the predicted meta. If the predicted meta becomes all mirror matches, something else becomes" probably the best deck". Legacy is never 100% solvable.

That said it's looking like the format might become more dynamic than it has been in a long time!

[Delvis]

Really glad to see Eldrazi doing well. Looks like at least two colorless builds in the top 8 - Harlan's is very, very close to our testing group's list and I think it was based off of ours.

Maybe now we'll get fewer haters on our thread and we can start working on the next-level build.

[Crimhead]

I feel like this is the Deathblade meta after TNN was printed. In time it will work itself out but people want to play with the new toys.A lot of people thought that TNN had a narrowing effect on the meta. The coming of the Eldrazi seems like it could pry the meta wide open with a lower cantrip deck density and no top decks which are difficult to hose.

I'm surprised this development is getting as much bad reception at it is; just as I've been surprised at the number of posters who really didn't seem to want the deck to succeed.

[Tormod]

I think legacy players are generally happy to see a new deck. Im happy any time I see miracles get pushed back. I think those against it are more invested in modern and have spill over hate from eldrazi dominance in that format.

[Dice_Box]

Personally, I am just happy I can play a true Shops style deck in Legacy. I love Shops, I love the lock style play. The idea that this is a deck that can run ten maindeck lock pieces, hand attack and then four to six more lock cards in the side make me happy.

[btm10]

I'm more suprised that Shardless BUG wasn't doing better. They should be slightly favored vs. Eldrazi. Maybe they suffered from splash hate against Eldrazi (Moon effects etc.)?

I'm not sure why this happened. I dropped early on when one of the guys in my group started to tilt pretty hard (so we went and had tacos and beer instead), but the combo matches I saw were usually resolved in favor of not-combo. There was also a ton of Eldrazi in the day 1 meta. I didn't see much Shardless, but I did see a surprising number of people on Lands, so maybe that's the explanation.


rock-paper-scissor meta incoming

Eldrazi > Miracles
Miracles > Lands
Lands > Eldrazi

But then you add Shardless and Loam to the meta, which are favored against Eldrazi and Miracles and soft to Lands to varying degrees (pretty rough for Shardless, only slightly unfavorable for Loam). Depending on how those decks divide the BGx segment between them, it opens up meta space for combo. I also don't think even the meta you described drives Delver out completely.

Really happy to see copies of the deck in the top 8.

[Gheizen64]

If that Mox diamond were a SSG, or even just another land, Gerry would've probably won that game.

Diamond in Eldrazi seems just so wrong. Stunt your mana development and make even weaker to wasteland.

[bruizar]

If that Mox diamond were a SSG, or even just another land, Gerry would've probably won that game.

Diamond in Eldrazi seems just so wrong. Stunt your mana development and make even weaker to wasteland.

That was my impression too. Mox diamond is always a waste, unless its in lands... The card is a trap.




Did Noah pay enough delve on his second angler?

[Meekrab]

Zendikar is saved by a giant beetle, a zombie fish, and a high schooler with a kerosene torch.

The phrase "motley crew" comes to mind.

[Crimhead]

Looking at the top eight seeds I thought we were going to see Shops trounce Miracles and then Lands trounce Shops. Feeling pretty robbed.

[Lord Seth]

It is kind of cool that an actual aggro deck is doing well in Legacy for once.

[Barook]

Wouldn't it have been better to suicide attack the Mimic to grab Jitte counters? All TKS did was giving Noah an extra draw. Angler couldn't have attacked into TKS + 2 Jitte counters (potentially shrinking it to -3/-3), thus also making a Young Pyromancer attack unattractive, leaving only Delver and maybe Strix to attack. And then either Endless One or TKS could have swung with Jitte next turn.

Instead, Gerry ended up with two weak Eldrazi that didn't do jackshit. Maybe I'm missing something?

[Eldariel]

Threshold in its infinite incarnations throughout the years, the once and future king. Somehow it keeps getting less press than the big, clumsy decks full of muscle (be it big control á la Miracles, big combo á la storm or show'n'tell, or big prison aggro á la eldrazi) but sometimes sleak'n'efficient is the name of the game.

[bruizar]

Wouldn't it have been better to suicide attack the Mimic to grab Jitte counters? All TKS did was giving Noah an extra draw. Angler couldn't have attacked into TKS + 2 Jitte counters (potentially shrinking it to -3/-3), thus also making a Young Pyromancer attack unattractive, leaving only Delver and maybe Strix to attack. And then either Endless One or TKS could have swung with Jitte next turn.

Instead, Gerry ended up with two weak Eldrazi that didn't do jackshit. Maybe I'm missing something?

I was wondering why he didnt collect jitte counters. He needed to get the delver out of the air asap. He could have still traded the tks for an angler+pyromacer in one turn if it would come to that, but that delver was on a rampage.

[MGB]

Really glad to see Eldrazi doing well. Looks like at least two colorless builds in the top 8 - Harlan's is very, very close to our testing group's list and I think it was based off of ours.

Maybe now we'll get fewer haters on our thread and we can start working on the next-level build.

The problem is that the deck wasn't really "developed" by the community at all. It's just a bunch of undercosted, pushed creatures all from one block jammed into a deck with the best 2-mana lands Legacy has, alongside Chalice, Thorn, and Wasteland. The deck built itself. There wasn't really anything to develop. It's not a community deck at all - it's a deck built by the Wizards R&D team, and as such it feels like a foreign invader in a grassroots format.

From day one, it took all of a few minutes to put "these 12 new EldrazI" into the traditional Tomb/City/Chalice/Wasteland package and it looks, from the top-8 lists, that there hasn't been much innovation beyond that aside from small tweaks to a few cards. I don't think there is any "next level" build, because the best build is just the one that runs the obvious Eldrazi and the obvious sol-lands and the obvious artifact hate cards.

[Jimbrewersbro]

The problem is that the deck wasn't really "developed" by the community at all. It's just a bunch of undercosted, pushed creatures all from one block jammed into a deck with the best 2-mana lands Legacy has, alongside Chalice, Thorn, and Wasteland. The deck built itself. There wasn't really anything to develop. It's not a community deck at all - it's a deck built by the Wizards R&D team, and as such it feels like a foreign invader in a grassroots format.

From day one, it took all of a few minutes to put "these 12 new EldrazI" into the traditional Tomb/City/Chalice/Wasteland package and it looks, from the top-8 lists, that there hasn't been much innovation beyond that aside from small tweaks to a few cards. I don't think there is any "next level" build, because the best build is just the one that runs the obvious Eldrazi and the obvious sol-lands and the obvious artifact hate cards.

This is exactly it. Take the best cards from stacks, with the most pushed creatures in years, with the best mana this side of Mishra's workshop and you have a tier one deck. There is nothing organic about the decks growth it's just easy and super pushed.

[conboy31]

Really glad to see Eldrazi doing well. Looks like at least two colorless builds in the top 8 - Harlan's is very, very close to our testing group's list and I think it was based off of ours.

Maybe now we'll get fewer haters on our thread and we can start working on the next-level build.

Not to piss on your work/effort, but taking MUD then subtracting 22 artifacts and adding 22 eldrazi from basically the last set isn't quite trailblazing.

[force_of_phil]

I think those against it are more invested in modern and have spill over hate from eldrazi dominance in that format.

There's certainly a fear of Eldrazi wrecking another format. While I don't like the deck, I do like that it's made a splash in the still pond. Now we get to see how everyone adjusts. There will be more Dismembers played for sure. Maybe Painter picks up again. I'm not the creative type, but those who are get to show their chops.

[iatee]

A lot of people thought that TNN had a narrowing effect on the meta. The coming of the Eldrazi seems like it could pry the meta wide open with a lower cantrip deck density and no top decks which are difficult to hose.

I'm surprised this development is getting as much bad reception at it is; just as I've been surprised at the number of posters who really didn't seem to want the deck to succeed.

New decks are always fun, but this deck is pretty obviously bad for legacy. The games involve very little decision making and interaction. You don't have to be good at magic to wreck people constantly when you can regularly go t1 Chalice on 1, t2 Thoughtseize plus I have a 4/4.

Also if this deck stays anywhere as prevalent as it was today, Storm is basically a t2 deck now. I predict Chalice will not be legal in legacy in a year. I don't think banning one set of sol lands does much.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Chalice + sol lands has been a thing in legacy for a long time.

It's nothing new, and it is most certainly not too good. The Eldrazi deck gets wrecked by wasteland moreso then other variants and can have remarkably clunky draws (eye and temple aren't true sol-lands).

I would argue if anything chalice has been underplayed in legacy and the arrival of the Eldrazi means people are playing it more, which means we might see some more midrange decks such as Jund or Shardless pop up more often.

[Crimhead]

The problem is that the deck wasn't really "developed" by the community at all. It's just a bunch of undercosted, pushed creatures all from one block jammed into a deck with the best 2-mana lands Legacy has, alongside Chalice, Thorn, and Wasteland. The deck built itself.


This is exactly it. Take the best cards from stacks, with the most pushed creatures in years, with the best mana this side of Mishra's workshop and you have a tier one deck. There is nothing organic about the decks growth it's just easy and super pushed.


Not to piss on your work/effort, but taking MUD then subtracting 22 artifacts and adding 22 eldrazi from basically the last set isn't quite trailblazing.
A lot of sour grapes going on here? If you guys bother to read through the development thread it willbe appatent that the optimal build was never obvious and still is not obvious.

Revokers?
Metamorphs?
Matter Reshaped?
Mox/SSG?
Exact mana base?
Jitte?
Sideboard?
Etc?

Also, if you've been following the community at all, to some it wasn't obvious this could make a competitive deck at all. To the point that some people seemed to think it was asinine even to bother trying!

The hatred for this deck is beyond me.



Also if this deck stays anywhere as prevalent as it was today, Storm is basically a t2 deck now.Yesterday Stompy was a tier two deck. It's okay for there to be tier two decks!

Is that's all that's going on - disgruntled players who's decks have slipped down the ranks?

[Dice_Box]

I am with Crimhead here (sorry for agreeing with you, we can go back to arguing in the Ban thread later.) this is a deck I think Legacy needs. Mud has traditionally eaten Blue decks but is so inconsistent that it's not worth betting on it. Now we have a shops like deck that has a consistency high enough that it can become a major player in shaping metas. Really, until this point, what was the punishment in playing Brainstorm? Now we might have one.

While I understand this kind of deck might not be fun for someone with a 18-20 land base with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder to go up against. I argue it's not been fun for those of us who do not like that style to watch it become the preordained method of play in Legacy. We need this. I am happy it's here.

[iatee]

Chalice on sol lands was played in basically bad decks before now. The price of getting chalice on 1 t1 was that the rest of your deck was gonna be clunky. Eldrazi decks don't suffer from that drawback, they can follow up the Chalice with a 2-3 turn clock and a Thoughtseize.

Having an increasing number of games over on t1 is bad for the format.

[Crimhead]

Having an increasing number of games over on t1 is bad for the format.On the other hand, having an increased number of decks which can play through that shit might be excellent for the format.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Man a deck that punishes people for having incredibly streamlined decks but still loses to flipped delver being popular and played, how awful for the format.

[iatee]

Honestly my main problem with this deck is that it is so mindless. I played a guy who t32'd with it - his first legacy event. Nice guy, I just don't think there should be any deck that gives you the power to win so many games while not really being familiar with the format you're playing. Legacy should be hard.

[Dice_Box]

Honestly my main problem with this deck is that it is so mindless. I played a guy who t32'd with it - his first legacy event. Nice guy, I just don't think there should be any deck that gives you the power to win so many games while not really being familiar with the format you're playing. Legacy should be hard.
Had this argument thrown at me when I play Shops time and time again. While some decks can be easier to play then others, there is still miles of difference between a good shops player and a bad one.

Also, saying a deck is easy is a lazy criticism. Merfolk is easy, so what, leople still play it. I a. The sure this deck is easer than Lands to play, that doesn't mean I won't have fun playing both. Fun is not a zero some game. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean I can't.

[iatee]

Magic is about interaction with your opponent. Easy decks let you basically skip that part of the game. If both people don't get a chance to do something, you're not even playing a game, you're just doing a performance art piece.

[Dice_Box]

Playing a Chalice is a form of interaction, as is Wasteland and Thorn. Attacking with Creatures is a form of interaction too. Not every deck needs to have Cantrips and Counters.

I submit to the court, Goblins. A deck with minimal interaction outside of Lands and Gempalm. A fine deck for a long time without issue. I also submit MUD. Much the same.

[Crimhead]

Magic is about interaction with your opponent. Easy decks let you basically skip that part of the game. If both people don't get a chance to do something, you're not even playing a game, you're just doing a performance art piece.
And you're worried that Storm takes a hit?

The only non-interactive Eldrazi game I watched this weekend was vs Tin Fins, and that deck is setting itself up to be locked out. The other games were all interactive.

[Echelon]

Also, don't forget that those playing against Eldrazi probably have as much as experience with the MU as the people actually playing with it...

There's a lot to be learned on both sides and some just learn faster than others.

[wolfstorm]

Beat Eldrazi twice with Sneak and Show at GP Houston in the Legacy Showdown, it can still go either way but S&T does have the advantage in the matchup.

[Amon Amarth]

It's Stoneblade V2. You know, that unstoppable deck after TNN was printed that no one plays anymore?

Not sure if you're being sincere, I think this is a pretty good comparison. Every time a deck/card is good in Legacy people tend to overreact. The deck is good but it has hard matchups and it's hardly Workshop level good. It's still an Ancient Tomb deck that can get underwhelming, awkward draws. Good for the format though. Legacy can be stagnant so I like a little shakeup.

[Rivfader]

Having an increasing number of games over on t1 is bad for the format.

This is only a bad thing if its due to an overpowered deck that narrows the format. Future will tell if this is the case with the Eldrazi, but I doubt it. I rather see it as a chance of breaking Legacy open, away from 1-mana cantripped blue decks into a broader scene. In the end, the Eldrazi's are extremely vulnerable in the manabase, so it's not like this deck can't be tackled, and we'll probably see lot's of wastes, ports and moons in the future.

[Tokugawa]

Beat Eldrazi twice with Sneak and Show at GP Houston in the Legacy Showdown, it can still go either way but S&T does have the advantage in the matchup.

But this MU is not hopeless for Eldrazis. Eldrazis still have weapons like Endbringer ,Thorn of amethyst or maindeck Revokers to improve the MU.

[Barook]

But this MU is not hopeless for Eldrazis. Eldrazis still have weapons like Endbringer ,Thorn of amethyst or maindeck Revokers to improve the MU.
Or splash white for Karakas, Displacer and potentially SB Containment Priest, bringing it up to D&T levels of wrecking shit against Sneak & Show.

And let's not forget Chalice and TKS.

With the white splash, it's one of my best match-ups.

[MD.Ghost]

With the white splash, it's one of my best match-ups.

Same - it will also do something vs Graveyard decks and other matchups. Usually, I don't give a shit about Modern, but ironically the Worship-Tech from UW Modern Eldrazi should work well in the Legacy Mirror too.

[Gheizen64]

Quick, only 5 brainstorm decks in Top8, let's ban something! We can't have Legacy being contaminated by the impure non-blue decks :frown:

#banEldraziTemple #MakeLegacyGreatAgain

[keys]

Personally I'm stoked we have a new Stompy variant to play with. MUD and Dragon Stompy are okay but a bit too inconsistent for bigger tournaments. The format needs more Chalice + fatties to prey on Delver and combo.

It's a much different story in Modern, however, where I think the deck is definitely busted. I suspect that's where the hatred is really coming from.

[iatee]

This is only a bad thing if its due to an overpowered deck that narrows the format. Future will tell if this is the case with the Eldrazi, but I doubt it. I rather see it as a chance of breaking Legacy open, away from 1-mana cantripped blue decks into a broader scene. In the end, the Eldrazi's are extremely vulnerable in the manabase, so it's not like this deck can't be tackled, and we'll probably see lot's of wastes, ports and moons in the future.

This creates boring one-sided matches. It doesn't freeze Brainstorm decks out of the format - clearly Grixis Delver can beat the deck with the right hands and won the tournament. But it can also lose without playing a card.

Incidentally, I play Wastes, Ports and Moons maindeck, lost 0-2 with two opening hands that had Wasteland in them. I don't actually think I have an overall unfavored matchup with my deck and have won more games than I have lost to Eldrazi. But the deck's explosive hands aren't very easy for anyone to punish. FoW the TKS? Well, if they have two, now you have essentially no hand. Wasteland their Sol land? Well, if they have enough lands in hand that might even work out in their favor, as you're going down a mana source while their remaining lands are Sol lands. What they need to print, and what doesn't exist, is a card that can *reliably* punish this deck within turn 1 or 2. If they ban Chalice, at least it will get fewer autowins vs fast combo.

[GundamGuy]

If they ban Chalice, at least it will get fewer autowins vs fast combo.

Yes because no one should be able to interact with fast combo on turn 0.

[Dice_Box]

While I will admit I am guilty of taking part, I am now going to point out we have a ban thread. Please take the talk about Chalice there.

[Admiral_Arzar]

This might be the biggest concentration of

https://media.deseretdigital.com/file/8e53c70584?crop=top:0%7Cleft:0%7Cwidth:1260%7Cheight:670%7Cgravity:Center&resize=width:1260&order=resize,crop&c=14&a=c856f78c

I've ever seen on this board. Blue cantrip decks have dominated this format for years (to the point where if this was any other format, they would have been banned back into the stone age), and those of us who liked playing other strategies just had to suck it up and tough it out. Now we finally get a potential tier one addition to the tiny ranks of good non-blue decks. One deck with potential, and the reaction of the blue mages is to throw a fucking temper tantrum. God damn, haven't you had fun at everyone else's expense for long enough? I welcome our new Eldrazi overlords and the resulting format shakeup. Who knows, maybe the format will start to revert back towards being only half blue (and actually diverse) instead of 3/4+. A man can dream.


While I will admit I am guilty of taking part, I am now going to point out we have a ban thread. Please take the talk about Chalice there.

He's abusing his power! Nooooooooooo!

[iatee]

I don't actually typically play blue decks. A better way to punish blue decks would be to further limit their consistency, rather than creating a bunch of match-ups with no meaningful interaction. I guess some of you guys just love 2 stomp, but like I said before, if you're playing magic and don't want to have to make any meaningful choices or interact with your opponent beyond 'take your best card, attack attack attack', you are not really 'playing magic' you are just a performance artist.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

If you want to dictate what other people should play then kitchen table magic is the format you are looking for.

No one is even sideboarding for the deck yet!

[Ace/Homebrew]

I don't actually typically play blue decks. A better way to punish blue decks would be to further limit their consistency, rather than creating a bunch of match-ups with no meaningful interaction. I guess some of you guys just love 2 stomp, but like I said before, if you're playing magic and don't want to have to make any meaningful choices or interact with your opponent beyond 'take your best card, attack attack attack', you are not really 'playing magic' you are just a performance artist.
I dunno, Chalice of the Void @ 1 is a pretty good way to limit Brainstorm deck consistency. Besides, currently how many games are non-games due to Wasteland/Rishadan Port, and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben? Or Stifle/Wasteland and Countermagic? Or combo-win turn 2 (herp+derp or otherwise)?

Eldrazi Stompy is a good thing for Legacy.
#MakeLegacyGreatAgain

[GundamGuy]

Eldrazi Stompy is a good thing for Legacy.
#MakeLegacyGreatAgain

The only thing I'm upset about is having to buy our new Eldrazi Overlords.

[Dice_Box]

The only thing I'm upset about is having to buy our new Eldrazi Overlords.

I traded unopened Boosters I got for not cashing my weekly events for card on Prerelase. Best idea I have had.

[Quasim0ff]

Eldrazi Stompy is a good thing for Legacy.
#MakeLegacyGreatAgain

"Eight Moon / Eight Rack / Cromat / Mimeoplasm / 93-94 Cube"

[iatee]

No one is even sideboarding for the deck yet!

*Everyone* came into this tournament expecting a lot of this deck, and it still did better than any other deck. The truth is, there just aren't many sideboard options that instantly wreck the deck the same way that T1 Chalice instantly wrecks other decks.

[nedleeds]

If this % of the field had just been playing Metalworker or any decent chalice deck it would have seen equal or better results. We've never had an event were so many people made this kind of investment into the stompy mana base. It took the internet herd sheep mentality of Ancient Tomb(s) being in Modern to get the sheep to switch over to a chalice deck. The other side of the coin is the modern apes who had all the dudes just had to buy 4 x tomb, 4 x (ouch) cities and suddenly they were playing legacy.

It's no secret chalice on 1 on the play is backbreaking. It's winning enough die rolls and not mulliganing to oblivion 2-3 times over 14 rounds that's the challenge chalice decks have always faced. You have to have a certain mass of people playing it to reasonably expect one to top 8 a 14 round event. Or have cheaters licking their Ancient Tombs and Chalices. I started 3-0 with a chalice deck, getting reasonable keeps and not having to go below 6. Out right crushing 2 opponents and outplaying a DNT opponent. Then I played vs. U/r delver, which is about a 75% matchup in my favor and never put a Chalice on the stack in 3 games. No cantrips to find them, and you can only mull down so far before you have to keep lands and spells.

[MaximumC]

*Everyone* came into this tournament expecting a lot of this deck, and it still did better than any other deck. The truth is, there just aren't many sideboard options that instantly wreck the deck the same way that T1 Chalice instantly wrecks other decks.

It's the new hotness, and there were a lot of decks trying it out. It didn't seem dominant to me; the Top 8 was a healthy mix of different kinds of decks, and the pilot who got Eldrazi to the final probably had a good shot of getting cheese sandwich that far, too. Ultimately, it lost to its natural predator.

I welcome our new Eldrazi stompy pals. Legacy isn't quite as robust as Vintage when it comes to taking WotC's mistakes in stride and moving along with an adjusted metagame, but it's not far behind. Vintage does just fine with Shops as a major player (yes, it does; stop whining about the last time you lost to Golem and look at the diversity in the metagame in actual tournaments) and Legacy will be just fine with a new stompy variant.

Also, bear in mind that WotC prints answers for what they think will be powerful decks in the next set. The Eldrazi are obviously pushed, so just as obviously Shadows over Innistrad will have cards printed in it that are intended to keep them in check. This doesn't always go as intended (lol Jace:TMS) but let's wait and see. Heck, I'm still not sure why we didn't see more Ghostly Prison / Propoganda running around as it is.

[iatee]

If this % of the field had just been playing Metalworker or any decent chalice deck it would have seen equal or better results. We've never had an event were so many people made this kind of investment into the stompy mana base. It took the internet herd sheep mentality of Ancient Tomb(s) being in Modern to get the sheep to switch over to a chalice deck. The other side of the coin is the modern apes who had all the dudes just had to buy 4 x tomb, 4 x (ouch) cities and suddenly they were playing legacy.

It's no secret chalice on 1 on the play is backbreaking. It's winning enough die rolls and not mulliganing to oblivion 2-3 times over 14 rounds that's the challenge chalice decks have always faced. You have to have a certain mass of people playing it to reasonably expect one to top 8 a 14 round event. Or have cheaters licking their Ancient Tombs and Chalices. I started 3-0 with a chalice deck, getting reasonable keeps and not having to go below 6. Out right crushing 2 opponents and outplaying a DNT opponent. Then I played vs. U/r delver, which is about a 75% matchup in my favor and never put a Chalice on the stack in 3 games. No cantrips to find them, and you can only mull down so far before you have to keep lands and spells.

There are enough Null Rod / Shatterstorm type effects in Magic for Metalworker decks to always be kept in check (if they weren't already by their clunkiness.) Most decks have existing weak points that can be exploited, especially with legacy's huge card pool. Colorless is a new mechanic and there is no colorless-Shatterstorm type thing. It is not out of the question that they have one in a future set, but because they want Eldrazi cards to be played in Standard, it is likely that if there is one it will not be powerful enough to make it into Modern/Legacy decks. e.g. I doubt they'd print a 2 mana wrath.

[Ace/Homebrew]

There are enough Null Rod / Shatterstorm type effects in Magic for Metalworker decks to always be kept in check (if they weren't already by their clunkiness.) Most decks have existing weak points that can be exploited, especially with legacy's huge card pool. Colorless is a new mechanic and there is no colorless-Shatterstorm type thing. It is not out of the question that they have one in a future set, but because they want Eldrazi cards to be played in Standard, it is likely that if there is one it will not be powerful enough to make it into Modern/Legacy decks. e.g. I doubt they'd print a 2 mana wrath.
Yeah, there's nothing like Painter's Servant, Blood Moon, or Ensnaring Bridge around in Legacy. Let alone a deck that would compile all three. I mean, how would a deck like that even win??


/s

[HSCK]

Eldrazi had some hype and had a good showing there, but it was hardly the DtB on everyone's radar. In a meta more prepared for it it will still probably put up some decent numbers. I think the deck is cool, but the other City/Tomb deck in MUD could show up as a natural predator for it/Miracles/slower blue decks. I think we are definitely at a point where Sol-Lands+City will be a contender every event though.

[nedleeds]

But the actual cards in the Eldrazi deck are shittier. The mana is shittier. It's got a good ceiling but has to deal with the additional clunkiness of legendary lands. It also can't leverage 3ball quite as well (the interaction with cost reducers like temple doesn't work). People were also just fucking cheating with the deck, like Painter's Servant is out on blue and they are savagely casting TKS with Temple, Tomb. Painter's Servant demolishes the deck, Blood Moon demolishes the deck. EE, Powder Keg and Torpor Orb all slow the deck way way down. The MUD manabase can play through all that, whether using stompy or posty mana base. Dragon Stompy has the explosive start and can moon out the Eldrazi deck. Angel stompy has 4 Moats which turns the deck into a colossal pile of shit.

/edit: wow we brainlinked and all posted at 12:00

[Admiral_Arzar]

But the actual cards in the Eldrazi deck are shittier. The mana is shittier.

Yes. The issue with MUD is that your good cards are very expensive and thus you need to draw acceleration beyond your lands in order to cast them in a reasonable time frame. Thus you have all sorts of shit hands that are either all mana or all big spells and lands without the requisite acceleration. Eldrazi doesn't have the kind of lategame haymakers MUD does but it compensates by being lower to the ground and being able to easily play all of its spells off of 3 or so lands. This leads to improved consistency which is the reason people are playing this deck over MUD.

EDIT: As for 3-Ball, I wouldn't play it in Eldrazi. After testing, Thorn is just better as it comes down turn 1 and doesn't conflict with Eye of Ugin.

[Crimhead]

*Everyone* came into this tournament expecting a lot of this deck, and it still did better than any other deck. The truth is, there just aren't many sideboard options that instantly wreck the deck the same way that T1 Chalice instantly wrecks other decks.
Based on The Source not everybody was willing to take the deck seriously. Who would dedicate side board slots for a subpar Modern port being piloted by inexperienced Modern players? Shops will get more respect now, and well see people more willing to adjust their deck/card selections. I think the meta is going to get very interesting!

[GenghisTom]

If this % of the field had just been playing Metalworker or any decent chalice deck it would have seen equal or better results. We've never had an event were so many people made this kind of investment into the stompy mana base. It took the internet herd sheep mentality of Ancient Tomb(s) being in Modern to get the sheep to switch over to a chalice deck.


I think this is a huge un-measurable aspect of deck% turnout.
People instantly assume the reason blue decks take up a large amount of the field is because they must be better/more consitent/whatever. But perhaps it's just because people like playing them more?
If we had X players in a tournament, and instead of each player playing what he/she wanted to, we took 20 different decks and distributed them evenly among the field we would see different % points.
The top decks would be based on player skill.

I've always thought MUD, or other chalice based decks were very well positioned. The only thing holding back their numbers was player turnout. Think of it, if 50% of every tournament was Deck X, then Deck X would put up high numbers (unless it was stormcrow.dec lol). There's definitely a herd-mentality when it comes to magic players choosing decks, especially in Legacy. I've met skilled legacy players who have many years under their belt, but if you ask them if they've played Enchantress, MUD, Deadguy Ale, Aluren, etc they say no, "I've only played delver and one time Shardless". One might argue delver/shardless etc are strictly better than the former decks, but is that really so? Maybe the former decks are just too complicated, or 'uncool', or just don't fit the play style of most people.

Why do people end up choosing blue decks in Legacy more often? Who knows. Probably consistency and counter magic. The rest is just conjecture. This is a card game of luck and skill played by all kinds of humans with varying motives and experience. All numbers are debatable. Even pros equipped with last weeks #1 deck can still 0 - 2 drop.

II personally don't like Eldrazi cuz they look ugly. I don't care how good the deck is. That's the reason I won't ever play it. I'm not a pro, but I do count as 1 player in a tournament. Magic players deck choices are hardly ever rational.

[Crimhead]

If this % of the field had just been playing Metalworker or any decent chalice deck it would have seen equal or better results. We've never had an event were so many people made this kind of investment into the stompy mana base.
9/64 players on day two were running Eldrazi. That's a shave under 1/7 of the field, yet the deck took a full 1/4 of the top 8, and almost 1/4 of the top 32 (7/32).

You can't make a claim that the deck's strong showing was due to sheer force of numbers becuase facts tell a different story.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

9/64 players on day two were running Eldrazi. That's a shave under 1/7 of the field, yet the deck took a full 1/4 of the top 8, and almost 1/4 of the top 32 (7/32).

You can't make a claim that the deck's strong showing was due to sheer force of numbers becuase facts tell a different story.A lot of those people were SCG grinders who could have gotten there with other decks (most have in the past too). I think the numbers and who played it are absolutely related to how it finished, as well as the general feeling that it's not a real deck within the legacy community leading to people not being prepared.

[iatee]

Yeah, there's nothing like Painter's Servant, Blood Moon, or Ensnaring Bridge around in Legacy. Let alone a deck that would compile all three. I mean, how would a deck like that even win??


/s

You really don't need to include "/s" with half of your posts.

Painter's Servant doesn't do enough in legacy since it only shuts off a few of their Sol Lands. And when it happens to be relevant, it just dies to *any* removal they play. It gives some additional upside to Painter's Servant decks, but it doesn't reliably beat Eldrazi on its own, so it's not worth a SB spot for anyone else.

Blood Moon and Bridge are 3 mana spells (4 if they're playing Thorns..) so they don't beat a fast hand or a TKS. And you need them in your opening hand because the deck is so fast. Obviously these cards *can* beat Eldrazi, but they are not really trump cards, just cards that can win given the right situation.

Yes, if a deck compiles all 3 of these cards, it will have a favorable matchup against Eldrazi. There's no question Imperial Painter does. But the format needs ways for non-Painter decks to reliably board against Eldrazi.

[Crimhead]

I think the numbers and who played it are absolutely related to how it finished, as well as the general feeling that it's not a real deck within the legacy community leading to people not being prepared.
Good point about the community not being prepared. But a whole 7 out of 9 players on day two made the top 32. The meta actually became denser with Shops decks as we look further up the ranks.

There were plenty of pros and big names on other lists. In fact, I think Harlan Firer (playng Shops) was not ne of the individual nly unknown players in the top 8. What percentage of grinders were actually running Eldrazis?

[Ace/Homebrew]

You really don't need to include "/s" with half of your posts.
What about the other half? :tongue:


But the format needs ways for non-Painter decks to reliably board against Eldrazi.
Does it? Can't highly mana efficient decks just have a bad match-up?

What tools do non-blue decks have to keep from getting turn 1'd by Belcher?



If you play with 0 basic lands, isn't it just for Blood Moon to lock you out?

If your deck is entirely artifacts, you should get blown out by Shatterstorm.

If your deck is all 2/2's, Pyroclasm will wreck your day.

Likewise if more than half your deck has a CMC of 1, you deserve to lose to a deck that drops Chalice on 1 first turn. I fail to see why decks with a poor Eldrazi Stompy matchup MUST have an answer to it immediately or the format is bad.

[Crimhead]

I am with Crimhead here (sorry for agreeing with you, we can go back to arguing in the Ban thread later.) With any luck Brainstorm decks will fall to a healthy 1/2 - 1/3 of the meta and the Ban thread will switch to Chalice talk. If I'm ever in the Southern hemisphere we'll have to grab a beer.

[iatee]

If you play with 0 basic lands, isn't it just for Blood Moon to lock you out?

If your deck is entirely artifacts, you should get blown out by Shatterstorm.

If your deck is all 2/2's, Pyroclasm will wreck your day.

Likewise if more than half your deck has a CMC of 1, you deserve to lose to a deck that drops Chalice on 1 first turn. I fail to see why decks with a poor Eldrazi Stompy matchup MUST have an answer to it immediately or the format is bad.

Do you not see how the first part of this does not work in tandem with the last line? Eldrazi decks are as greedy as anyone choosing to play 0 basics, entirely artifacts or entirely 2/2. You think greedy decks should be punished. Great, I basically agree. Eldrazi punishes greedy decks while also being a greedy deck that can't be as easily punished.

[Crimhead]

You think greedy decks should be punished. Great, I basically agree. Eldrazi punishes greedy decks while also being a greedy deck that can't be as easily punished.I think he is saying greedy decks should be punished by poor MUs that naturally prey on them. For Shops this would be Moon decks, Waste-lock decksas well as any deck which can easily play through Chalice.

He is not saying that greedy decks should be easily punished by every deck in the format via a strong sideboard plan. Big difference!

[tescrin]

GOBLINS ARE COMIN' BACK IN A BIG WAY BABY!

*dumps money into the garbage bin*

[Ace/Homebrew]

I think he is saying greedy decks should be punished by poor MUs that naturally prey on them. [...] He is not saying that greedy decks should be easily punished by every deck in the format via a strong sideboard plan. Big difference!
https://ac3d197e9505f18c50e0-32b9f49f48b2c22be12b40ee79e2acc4.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/icon/logos_and_badges_like_button/j2lm0CeHbQRxugFMmozK/like-button-2015-06.png

[Crimhead]

Speaking of Pox, I would imagine that deck also has potential to beat Eldrazi Stompy most of the time...

Smallpox would be a bomb vs Shops. Makes me want to get a Jund Depths (Punishing Pox) list going...

[Ace/Homebrew]

Smallpox would be a bomb vs Shops. Makes me want to get a Jund Depths (Punishing Pox) list going...
I edited my post, so now yours looks out of place. :rolleyes:
It's your own fault for saying what I wanted to say better than me.

Here's the original post for context:

--------------------


Do you not see how the first part of this does not work in tandem with the last line? Eldrazi decks are as greedy as anyone choosing to play 0 basics, entirely artifacts or entirely 2/2. You think greedy decks should be punished. Great, I basically agree. Eldrazi punishes greedy decks while also being a greedy deck that can't be as easily punished.
It's fragile against Wasteland/Life from the Loam strategies as well as alternative Stompy builds. I feel we've established it is extremely handicapped by Blood Moon because it runs no basics. The artifact hate most decks have in the sideboard also destroys the Chalices and resistors in the deck.

It has predators AND prey. I disagree that all prey should have sweeping answers against its predator.

What does Goblins do against Storm Combo? They have to shoe-horn in Plateaus and hope Thalia, Guardian of Thraben comes down early enough.
What sweeping answer does D&T have against Elves? Holy Light?
How does RUG hate out Pox? Speaking of Pox, I would imagine that deck also has potential to beat Eldrazi Stompy most of the time...

Eldrazi Stompy is a greedy deck that loses against cards that exploit its greed (manabase) just like any other deck. Deck is fair. Format is fine. Cantrips can suck it.

[Gheizen64]

Smallpox is like a 10 for 1 vs Eldrazis. Damn i love that card :cool:

[TsumiBand]

Doesn't the apparent strength of Eldrazi decks in the format just mean that there's been a litany of fast mana sitting around that maybe didn't know it needed to be kept in check until it was obvious how crazy it actually is? I mean shit, it's a "mid-range" deck that plays Grim Monolith.

It's a smaller scale version of cards like Survival of the Fittest and Show and Tell, right -- these lands and accelerants always probably made too much mana too easily, they were just waiting for a proper avenue to be exploited. Now that it exists, people are freaking out before they've even teched out their sideboards. Should be an interesting six months.

[Begle1]

I can't help but give Wizards a little thumbs-up when I read about people complaining how the "alien" Eldrazi have "invaded" Legacy by just putting "all their new over-powered creatures into one deck".

Meta-flavor win.



I know I don't oppose any new deck that busts up the blue cantrip monopoly, and especially when it gets new players into Legacy in the process.

[Cire]

I would love a Dredge, Combo, Cantrip Shell, Eldrazi Stompy, Pox meta :cool:

[nedleeds]

Why do people end up choosing blue decks in Legacy more often?

People own it. Changing decks in legacy is expensive. If you own forces, blue duals and the cantrip mafia you are in every deck. They all share 20 fucking cards. Buying into a stompy manabase (now at least), and $40 chalices, $20 3balls, plus the inflated Eldrazi Standard/Modern crap is a big leap from Derp Delver or Miracles.

[Crimhead]

I would love a Dredge, Combo, Cantrip Shell, Eldrazi Stompy, Pox meta :cool:Lands.dec wants in on that action!

[Tammit67]

Eldrazi is good and here to stay. We'll see if it settles as a tier 1 deck or the blue decks adapt away from mono-one drops somehow. The worse part about vintage is the non-games attributed to shops, I hope Legacy doesn't become abundant with these T1 pivotal points as a rule rather than the exception.

To those saying "Of course eldrazi had good day two into top 32 penetration, all the grinders were on it!"... the fact the grinders were on it or on something that beats it should tell you something. If the best players at an event show up with similar archetypes, it's because they perceive the deck as strong (probably because the deck is actually strong).

My biggest issue with eldrazi, the thing that might make it too good, is how damn fast it is. The disruption comes out turn 1 and I drop a 4/4 turn 2 that also disrupts you. The creatures are so pushed that it is hard to have the awkward hands that MUD naturally encounters thanks to the decreased curve that Oath of the Gatewatch has provided. Mana base disruption is one of the few things that opponents can exploit but the disruption has to be consistent with loam or crucible to really stick since that curve is capable of pumping out threats at 2 lands. A splash color (namely white it seems) has all the antihate (sacred ground, rest in peace, disenchant, containment priest) the deck could want to prevent opposing typical answers (wastelock, GY strats namely wastelock/dredge, painter/blood moon/ensnaring bridge, combo strats like sneak and show or reanimator or dredge).

Actions certainly doesn't need to be taken and the format will adapt. My question is "Is the format after the dust settles enjoyable?" and I don't know if I want to play vintage when I don't have access to my bazaars

[Crimhead]

Actions certainly doesn't need to be taken and the format will adapt. My question is "Is the format after the dust settles enjoyable?"
That's a pretty subjective question. Lots of players have found Legacy unenjoyable (or barely enjoyable) for the last couple years on account of too much blue and especially too much Miracles. Most of these people will find the new meta a welcome change.

Personally I have never found Legacy to be unenjoyable - even at times when I've found the meta to be a little lacklustre. Over the years I've been blown out of many a game by busted interactions of every flavour. That's the price we pay for playing a high powered, fast paced format with a wide variety of angles from which various decks attack the game. I wouldn't have it any other way!

By far the majority of Legacy games I've played have been interesting and dynamic. If you really don't like being blown out by lock-rocks, there are decks you can choose which are not soft to Eldrazi Shops. I recommend Lands because it's the most fun you'll ever have playing MTG.

[Serj]

I still don't understand everyone when they are saying the deck is super strong and the creatures are super pushed. All stompy decks do the same thing with your choice of metal, vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, or pistachio. Turn 1 chalice/thorn/sphere has existed for a long time. A 4/4 vend clique for 4 and a 5/5 trample haste beater aren't miles better than anything in the mud, demon, dragon, Angel, mogg catcher, tezz decks. If they resolve turn 1 lock piece turn 2 threat regardless of what it is you likely aren't winning the game playing a U cantrip deck. The deck is also full of clunk with legendary lands, lands that are useless without specifically eldrazi cards, and half their creature suite is laughably bad. They have the same clunk and baggage every stompy deck has. I think CVM said it best that once a chalice on one resolves, especially game one you could win with a ham sandwich. I've played me some chalices of different varieties and the eldrazi deck feels no different, if not frustratingly more awkward because there are so many trap hands with eye of ugin that I don't even want to play that god awful land because it's completely useless without another sol land (city or tomb not shitty temple). i feel like eventually a tuned version of the deck will eventually be built that's more on par and explosive and powerful with less clunk and resemble more like mud just with better beats outside of just YE olde lodestone golem.

Overall still not impressed with the deck, excited that people are playing it tho and modern players are converting so that they can justify having the cards after the deck gets banned in modern.

[keys]

I disagree with those of you saying that MUD Stompy is as good as Eldrazi Stompy. Let's compare Eldrazi and MUD (you could also compare Dragon Stompy but I think MUD is better).

MUD has some broken plays like Greaves + Forgemaster -> Blightsteel -> win, or Metalworker -> Staff of Domination -> win, or just spitting out Lodestone Golem after Lodestone Golem, but it's MUCH more inconsistent and mana intensive.

Although some MUD players have been trying out versions of the deck that are lower to the ground, the core is something like:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Stell Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Collosus
1 Platinum Emperion

Plus...
4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Trinisphere

Eldrazi runs the same amount of Chalice and Trinisphere/Thorns, plus this creature base:

4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper (or Revoker)
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
1 Endbringer

AND
4 Dismember/Warping Wail (I've been impressed by Wail)

That's a hell of a lot more aggressive, easier on the manabase, without the vulnerability of Metalworker, nor the card disadvantage of Forgemaster/Monolith. And with TKS (+Warping Wail) over Lodestone I think it's equally if not more disruptive.

Then you have to take into consideration the fact that artifact removal (and cards Null Rod) are way more efficient than creature removal. You aren't getting blown out by Ancient Grudge.

[Tammit67]

That's a pretty subjective question. Lots of players have found Legacy unenjoyable (or barely enjoyable) for the last couple years on account of too much blue and especially too much Miracles. Most of these people will find the new meta a welcome change.
Yes, it's very subjective. I still play a bunch of vintage when I can and Legacy will still be my favorite format. It will dampen my spirits to be unable to play some of my favorite decks because of what I view as overly pushed, hamfisted design, but I will move to a different archtype and still have fun.

Those of you saying that MUD Stompy is as good as Eldrazi Stompy are not quite getting it. Let's compare Eldrazi and MUD (you could also compare Dragon Stompy but I think MUD is better).

MUD has some broken plays like Greaves + Forgemaster -> Blightsteel -> win, or Metalworker -> Staff of Domination -> win, or just spitting out Lodestone Golem after Lodestone Golem, but it's MUCH more inconsistent and mana intensive.
(Sample cores)

That's a hell of a lot more aggressive, easier on the manabase, without the vulnerability of Metalworker, nor the card disadvantage of Forgemaster/Monolith. And with TKS (+Warping Wail) over Lodestone I think it's equally if not more disruptive.

Then you have to take into consideration the fact that artifact removal (and cards like Pithing Needle and Null Rod) are WAY more efficient than [colorless creature removal]. You aren't getting blown out by Ancient Grudge.

Exactly this.

[Crimhead]

Then you have to take into consideration the fact that artifact removal (and cards Null Rod) are way more efficient than creature removal. You aren't getting blown out by Ancient Grudge.
Yep - it was sure nice Gripping those giant robots. Can't do that with the aliens.

Apart from having a lower curve (and smother, thanks to Endless One), those extra Sol Lands make all the difference IMO. It's a very balanced solution - the tribal sol lands let Shops puke out its creatures more consistently, but they don't accelerate Chalice, Thorn, or Sphere. Almost surely the deck is better than the previous Stompy lists.

@Tammit, I hope the format shapes up in a way that you enjoy. This is Magic though, so I guess there will always be unsatisfied customers.

[Tammit67]

@Tammit, I hope the format shapes up in a way that you enjoy. This is Magic though, so I guess there will always be unsatisfied customers.

Hey thanks man. I'm not too far away from lands so that will be the direction I take until painter solves the format

[maharis]

The thing is, as much as lockpiece-into-dumbcreature.dec hates on the blue shell, I also see the Eldrazi deck potentially pushing a lot of other fringy non-blue decks out of the format. For example, how does Maverick compete with this deck? Jund has no way of even attempting to get a TKS or Smasher off the table... they have to find and grow a Goyf without dying to their own self-harm. That doesn't even count Junk or Nic Fit decks that are just slower midrange decks with less impactful creatures. And do any of those decks have draws as good as Delver, Daze, Wasteland, Bolt, refuel?

On the other hand, I think there is some unexplored design space that can be looked at if Eldrazi really shakes up the meta. With Counterbalance neutered, non-Miracles control decks may crop up or get more popular. Friends of mine on BUG Landstill and Tezz at Philly said their Eldrazi matchups were pretty good. So there are options. Whether or not they're less blue, though, remains to be seen.

[Barook]

For example, how does Maverick compete with this deck?
Miracles wrecked Maverick so hard that it fell from being THE DtB to a Tier 2 strategy - and you worry about Eldrazi? :really: KotR does its numbers on Eldrazi because it grows to roadblock status rather quickly and the ability to fetch multiple Wasteland is a nightmare for Eldrazi.

Jund has Goyfs and Lilianas as outlets.

[Delvis]

The problem is that the deck wasn't really "developed" by the community at all. It's just a bunch of undercosted, pushed creatures all from one block jammed into a deck with the best 2-mana lands Legacy has, alongside Chalice, Thorn, and Wasteland. The deck built itself. There wasn't really anything to develop. It's not a community deck at all - it's a deck built by the Wizards R&D team, and as such it feels like a foreign invader in a grassroots format.

From day one, it took all of a few minutes to put "these 12 new EldrazI" into the traditional Tomb/City/Chalice/Wasteland package and it looks, from the top-8 lists, that there hasn't been much innovation beyond that aside from small tweaks to a few cards. I don't think there is any "next level" build, because the best build is just the one that runs the obvious Eldrazi and the obvious sol-lands and the obvious artifact hate cards.

That's not even close to correct and dismisses the month of dedicated playtesting my group in particular invested into building the deck. The fact that you don't see the hard work put in doesn't mean it wasn't put in.

I joined the team late but we tested and dismissed probably a dozen cards or more, including commonly seen cards that the rest of the community is catching up to, like cutting Grim Monolith and Mox Diamond, cutting Lodestone Golem, playing Revoker and Jitte main, playing Mishra's Factory over other nonbasic lands, etc.

Don't fucking tell me the deck builds itself. Yeah, the core is Sol lands, Chalice, TKS, and Smasher, but that's only 26-28 cards. The rest is up in the air, and we worked hard to knock out the kinks and find the ideal list. For you to dismiss that as "brainless deck building" is frankly insulting.

[force_of_phil]

The deck that scares me the most from Philly isn't Eldrazi, it's the new Lands build. Looks like the Miracles matchup is much improved, and with Storm getting hated out, it might be the best deck at the moment.

[tescrin]

That's not even close to correct and dismisses the month of dedicated playtesting my group in particular invested into building the deck.

[...]

the deck builds itself [...] the core is Sol lands, Chalice, TKS, and Smasher[...]

FTFY ayyy lmao

Seriously though. It was already figured out in modern.

[jimmythegreek]

The deck that scares me the most from Philly isn't Eldrazi, it's the new Lands build. Looks like the Miracles matchup is much improved, and with Storm getting hated out, it might be the best deck at the moment.

Uuuummmmm what about spainish inquisition, that deck is the fastest deck ever!

[sjmcc13]

Uuuummmmm what about spainish inquisition, that deck is the fastest deck ever!

and fails to go off way to much...

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

The thing is, as much as lockpiece-into-dumbcreature.dec hates on the blue shell, I also see the Eldrazi deck potentially pushing a lot of other fringy non-blue decks out of the format. For example, how does Maverick compete with this deck? Jund has no way of even attempting to get a TKS or Smasher off the table... they have to find and grow a Goyf without dying to their own self-harm. That doesn't even count Junk or Nic Fit decks that are just slower midrange decks with less impactful creatures. And do any of those decks have draws as good as Delver, Daze, Wasteland, Bolt, refuel?


Card-Advantage based Midrange decks, such as Shardless and Jund, traditionally beat stompy strategies through discard, most notably Hymn to Tourach. Stompy Decks require their lines to be relatively unmolested (countermagic aside, but those decks are designed to have a high density of "Counter or Die" cards), things like Hymn to Tourach combined with a well-timed wasteland are incredibly strong, ideally these decks want to put them in a position of having one threat, Lily edict them or jam a Goyf to play defense and go from there. Both decks have T1 DRS> T2 Hymn, wasteland you, go, with both having the ability to cascade into a hymn to tourach in the following turns.

More traditional midrange decks such as Maverick or Nic Fit simply match their might and answer their lock pieces, both usually have ways of dealing with them, Nic Fit with Pernicious Deed and Maverick with Qasali Pridemage.

[Tammit67]

Card-Advantage based Midrange decks, such as Shardless and Jund, traditionally beat stompy strategies through discard, most notably Hymn to Tourach.

Lands kinda eat these alive though

[Crimhead]

Lands kinda eat these alive thoughImagine a format where every deck has poor MUs. That's how it should be. Fair decks that Lands preys on will open the format up to combo, which hates on Lands.

If I were playing Jund, I'd seriously consider running Smallpox in the board.

[Poborskay]

One tournament done and I find it funny how some people already are afraid of that this Eldrazi Stompy deck should "ruin Legacy" by making games non-interactive. We have plenty of decks in Legacy where games are decided in the first turns already and decks that to some players make the game just that, non-interactive... Belcher, ANT, TES, Tin Fins, Lands explosive draws, Infect explosive draws etc etc. All of those decks can win FAST without the opponent getting a chance to do much if he/she did not have a FoW/removal.

This deck attacks the meta-game proactively with chalice of the void and various creatures, its nothing new really but I think is the best thing that happened to Legacy in a long time. Not only is it a more consistent MUD or Dragon Stompy deck, its also an aggro deck that actually does not suck. The only other playable aggro decks Legacy has is Burn and Affinity where both struggle quite a lot to keep up with the consistency and power the blue-based decks give in Legacy. I think for an aggro deck to be successful in Legacy it needs to have explosivity, consistency and a way to prevent its creatures from beeing removed in one way or another. This deck does just that and happens to prey on the current meta-game where everyone has played 1 CMC cantrips into their win-con for quite some time now. I see it as a fresh reboot of the meta-game where I believe everyone has to rethink their strategies a bit and adapt to that there is now a fast deck that actually can kill you with only CREATURES. Cannot be a bad thing.

Besides, the only sideboard tech that has been discussed seriously is Blood Moon and maybe Painter's Servant, those sure prevents the explosivity but maybe dedicated cards to hose creature attacks should be considered instead? Time to look at cards like Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, heck even Elephant Grass would work to slow it down if getting it out before Chalice lands. Eldrazi lands are not good for paying such costs and ancient tomb hurts! Should give some time to build a boardstate at least. Reanimator can also start to run Blazing Archon again for instance, one of those reanimated and Eldrazi is as good as dead. There are answers, this is Legacy people! Don't be sad just because the blue cantrip decks got a little bit less effective all of a sudden, not everyone likes top8:s with 64 Brainstorms played. This opens up different strategies to be effective competitive and that can only be seen as development of the format according to me.

[square_two]

Card-Advantage based Midrange decks, such as Shardless and Jund, traditionally beat stompy strategies through discard, most notably Hymn to Tourach. Stompy Decks require their lines to be relatively unmolested (countermagic aside, but those decks are designed to have a high density of "Counter or Die" cards), things like Hymn to Tourach combined with a well-timed wasteland are incredibly strong, ideally these decks want to put them in a position of having one threat, Lily edict them or jam a Goyf to play defense and go from there. Both decks have T1 DRS> T2 Hymn, wasteland you, go, with both having the ability to cascade into a hymn to tourach in the following turns.

More traditional midrange decks such as Maverick or Nic Fit simply match their might and answer their lock pieces, both usually have ways of dealing with them, Nic Fit with Pernicious Deed and Maverick with Qasali Pridemage.

The non-black midrange lists still have plenty of issues. I was (trying) to rock Sylvan Plug online but have since abandoned it. I think I won one game against Eldrazi in 8 or so matches. It just became too depressing to try. Everything I had was either slower or just inferior.

[maharis]

Miracles wrecked Maverick so hard that it fell from being THE DtB to a Tier 2 strategy - and you worry about Eldrazi? :really: KotR does its numbers on Eldrazi because it grows to roadblock status rather quickly and the ability to fetch multiple Wasteland is a nightmare for Eldrazi.

Jund has Goyfs and Lilianas as outlets.

Uh, I've said a bunch that I think Counterbalance is a stupid card and Miracles is a problematic deck...

The thing is, the Eldrazi deck does midrange better than most midrange decks. TKS is essentially a 4/4 Tidehollow Sculler, I would've loved a card like that in black. Reality Smasher is Goyf with trample and protection.

I understand that big Goyfs and KOTRs are good against the Eldrazi, but the Eldrazi deck is potentially very fast and disruptive. Getting to the point where you can find and deploy these threats is far from a given.

Either way, I don't think the Eldrazi deck is a problem yet.... I just think that blue decks will, as usual, have better, more consistent answers, thus meaning the presence of this deck could do very little to actually drop the blue presence in the format despite its hateful nature.

[iatee]

Yep, this doesn't freeze out blue - in fact, blue still won the tournament, beating Eldrazi. It just creates a bunch of non-games across the tournament.

[Dice_Box]

Played the deck tonight. A flipped Delver and a resolved Pyromancer is often too much for you to handle.

While I can make life hard for my opponent, going wider than this deck is a very effect foil.

[Zombie]

Played the deck tonight. A flipped Delver and a resolved Pyromancer is often too much for you to handle.

While I can make life hard for my opponent, going wider than this deck is a very effect foil.

So Caveman Elves, go?

[Dice_Box]

So Caveman Elves, go?
Unlikely. Chalice is just too hard a card for Elves to deal with in the early game and by the time you deal with it, your dead. This deck doesn't matter fuck around. Turn one Thorn, turn two two Mimic and a Thoughtseize, turn three smack for 19 was nuts.

Edit:
That said, I lost two games to the top of the deck, having all the time in the world and both times drawing either all lands or no lands. The deck still has to trust in "The Heart of the cards" (Hi teenage Dice) and that will shit on it at times.

[Wilkin]

Unlikely. Chalice is just too hard a card for Elves to deal with in the early game and by the time you deal with it, your dead. This deck doesn't matter fuck around. Turn one Thorn, turn two two Mimic and a Thoughtseize, turn three smack for 19 was nuts.

Edit:
That said, I lost two games to the top of the deck, having all the time in the world and both times drawing either all lands or no lands. The deck still has to trust in "The Heart of the cards" (Hi teenage Dice) and that will shit on it at times.

I agree.

I tested a bit with a version of Eldrazi Stompy and I can beat Elves quite easily game 1 (whereas as MUD it's a nightmare for me vs Elves). Chalice is a thing but more than that, the Eldrazi dudes don't die to Reclamation Sage and maindeck Warping Wail is insane. Being able to kill most of their dudes or counter Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature or Zenith gives the deck interaction on their turn.

[bruizar]

Played the deck tonight. A flipped Delver and a resolved Pyromancer is often too much for you to handle.

While I can make life hard for my opponent, going wider than this deck is a very effect foil.

I've got my sights set on wasteland strangler. Seems so much better than something like matter reshaper.

[Dice_Box]

I've got my sights set on wasteland strangler. Seems so much better than something like matter reshaper.

You have to build around it though. You need to fuel it or it only kills Phantasmal Image.

[bruizar]

You have to build around it though. You need to fuel it or it only kills Phantasmal Image.

Yes. Warping Wail and TKS exile cards, which is good enough to trigger it if you don't have leyline of the void, but the question is if its reliable enough.

[Crimhead]

Yep, this doesn't freeze out blue - in fact, blue still won the tournament, beating Eldrazi.
There were:
5/8 blue decks in the top 8.
9/16 blue decks in the top 16.
13/32 blue decks in the top 32.

Nobody thinks Eldrazi will push blue out of Legacy! But they might reign it in a little.

At best Eldrazi shakes up the format, but at worst it's at least one more non-cantrip deck. Blue should at the very least lose whatever share of the meta Eldrazi takes for itself - it's very unlikely Lands or D&T takes a hit.

[Dice_Box]

Yes. Warping Wail and TKS exile cards, which is good enough to trigger it if you don't have leyline of the void, but the question is if its reliable enough.
I doubt it. I would look more at Jitte and Endbringer as answers over running a four of that you need to draw and resolve another spell before it to use optimally.

[iatee]

There were:
5/8 blue decks in the top 8.
9/16 blue decks in the top 16.
13/32 blue decks in the top 32.

Nobody thinks Eldrazi will push blue out of Legacy! But they might reign it in a little.

At best Eldrazi shakes up the format, but at worst it's at least one more non-cantrip deck. Blue should at the very least lose whatever share of the meta Eldrazi takes for itself - it's very unlikely Lands or D&T takes a hit.

The problem is, blue 'loses' in stupid, non-games to Chalice. e.g. You are a Delver deck on the draw with no FoW in your hand, but you have a strong Delver hand. If Eldrazi has Chalice on 1, you just lose. If Eldrazi doesn't, you likely win. You're probably not gonna mull to even more card disadvantage to stop a card they may or may not have.

The solution to the cantrip problem is to take away some cantrips, not increase the % of games that are over on turn 1.

[iatee]

Like, vs Chalice, the same Delver+Daze hand could have something like a 80% expected win % on the play and 10% on the draw. That makes the dice roll the entire game of magic.

[Cire]

Like, vs Chalice, the same Delver+Daze hand could have something like a 80% expected win % on the play and 10% on the draw. That makes the dice roll the entire game of magic.

Without mulligans Eldrazi has 40% chance of having Chalice turn 1. Blue has 40% chance of having FOW back up. So 60% of games, Blue doesn't auto-lose, and out of the 40%, 8% of games that chalice will be countered. So instead of an 80% win chance on the play, blue against eldrazi (if chalice turn 1 was the only thing in that match up) it would be more like 68/32. :tongue:

Either way - I seriously don't get the chalice hate. . . a working stompy deck has been a legacy dream for a long time. If cantripshell.dec is bad against it - get a new deck. It's what non-blue players have been doing for years.

[iatee]

Stompy decks are mindless and Chalice everywhere / a tier 1 stompy deck makes legacy a format where bad players can win more often. That is great news for bad players, but bad news for legacy.

[Admiral_Arzar]

The problem is, blue 'loses' in stupid, non-games to Chalice. e.g. You are a Delver deck on the draw with no FoW in your hand, but you have a strong Delver hand. If Eldrazi has Chalice on 1, you just lose.


Good. Every deck should have bad matchups. The crying about Chalice when Counter-Top still exists blows my mind. If I'm on a Chalice deck and my Delver opponent has a turn one Delver + Daze I lose, but you don't hear Chalice pilots bitching incessantly about that.


Stompy decks are mindless and a T1 stompy deck makes legacy a format where bad players can win more often. That is great news for bad players, but bad news for legacy.

This is some of the most delusional elitism I have ever seen come out of these boards. People like playing different decks than you. Get over it and get off of your fucking high horse.

[Dice_Box]

The solution to the cantrip problem is to take away some cantrips, not increase the % of games that are over on turn 1.
I would argue that Wasteland has be responsible for more turn one wins then Chalice. Just a thought.

Also people, if Blue Mages in Vintage can deal with a far far more powerful version of this deck, you can learn how to deal with it in Legacy.

[maharis]

Without mulligans Eldrazi has 40% chance of having Chalice turn 1. Blue has 40% chance of having FOW back up. So 60% of games, Blue doesn't auto-lose, and out of the 40%, 8% of games that chalice will be countered. So instead of an 80% win chance on the play, blue against eldrazi (if chalice turn 1 was the only thing in that match up) it would be more like 68/32. :tongue:

Either way - I seriously don't get the chalice hate. . . a working stompy deck has been a legacy dream for a long time. If cantripshell.dec is bad against it - get a new deck. It's what non-blue players have been doing for years.

I don't think Chalice is a problem, nor do I have a problem with playing against Chalice/stompy. But this particular deck has the potential to crowd out lots more decks than just the Delver strategy that everyone loves to hate.

For example, what is D&T supposed to do -- its only one drop is essentially a dead card, its mana acceleration is slower, its disruption doesn't matter (13-16 sol lands vs. 8 disruptive lands, plus one that doesn't even need to tap), and its only removal is shut down by the main lock piece.

Other non-blue midrange strategies are going to have just as bad a time. They depend on 1-drops as well like DRS, Hierarch, STP, Thoughtseize, Bolt... And it's hard to out-attrition a deck where 8 of its creatures two-for-one you if they resolve (which they will by definition since you're a non-blue midrange deck)

And, this deck is so much more consistent than any other stompy deck has been historically, while probably also just being better. So if you've enjoyed playing MUD or Big Red or whatever... nuts to you.

If you look at what happened in Modern, it's not hard to see the same thing happening to Legacy... The Eldrazi decks push out the fair decks that win based on incremental advantages, leading people to try more fast, non-interactive combo and hyper-aggro strategies that still need to fade an early Chalice.

There's still some time to adapt due to the breadth and depth of the Legacy cardpool. I personally look forward to exploring non-Miracles control decks like Landstill or even mono-black because I think they have good game against this deck, and control is more viable in legacy than modern for multiple reasons. However, I don't think this deck's existence is a net good despite it fighting the good fight against cantrips.dec.

[iatee]

I would argue that Wasteland has be responsible for more turn one wins then Chalice. Just a thought.

Also people, if Blue Mages in Vintage can deal with a far far more powerful version of this deck, you can learn how to deal with it in Legacy.

Blue mages don't 'deal with it', the format just turns into rock-paper-scissors / did I draw my sideboard cards / did I SB right for this meta. Vintage is *extremely* high variance / meta dependent and doesn't reward the stronger player as consistently as legacy.

Again, if you are a bad player you should be thrilled.

[Undomian]

Stompy decks are mindless and Chalice everywhere / a tier 1 stompy deck makes legacy a format where bad players can win more often. That is great news for bad players, but bad news for legacy.

I honestly can't tell if this is genuine or just a shitpost, because it sure is shitty. Different types of decks exist in this format, deal with it.

[GreatWhale]

Stompy decks are mindless and Chalice everywhere / a tier 1 stompy deck makes legacy a format where bad players can win more often. That is great news for bad players, but bad news for legacy.

We get it, you don't like turn 1 chalice. You have been spamming this thread since the beginning complaining about chalice.

Chalice has always been in the format and a turn 1 chalice does the same thing today as it did a year ago, two years ago and five years ago.

[Dice_Box]

Blue mages don't 'deal with it', the format just turns into rock-paper-scissors / did I draw my sideboard cards / did I SB right for this meta. Vintage is *extremely* high variance / meta dependent and doesn't reward the stronger player as consistently as legacy.

Again, if you are a bad player you should be thrilled.
More than once a Blue Mage who is highly skilled has stomped me into the floor and walked on past in Vintage. If you think there is not play in those games then you should play more. It's a ton of fun and a lot of play.

[iatee]

More than once a Blue Mage who is highly skilled has stomped me into the floor and walked on past in Vintage. If you think there is not play in those games then you should play more. It's a ton of fun and a lot of play.

I'm not saying that Vintage is zero skill, I'm saying that it is very high variance, and that ultimately helps low skill players, especially because magic tournaments are fairly small sample sets of games. At the last Eternal Weekend, my friend, having literally never played Vintage in his life, threw together a budget mono-white list the night before with Mana Tithes and a bunch of other troll nonsense, and went 6-4.

Incidentally, Vintage is a good comparison here because hey, guess what, they restricted Chalice because it created too many non-games, even for Vintage.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Vintage and Legacy are far different, for one, MISHRAS WORKSHOP IS A CARD.

[Dice_Box]

Yes, that's because it was used to great effect as Land destruction. Not really that applicable here to anywhere near the same degree.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Incidentally, Vintage is a good comparison here because hey, guess what, they restricted Chalice because it created too many non-games, even for Vintage.
My understanding (which is admittedly limited, Vintage players can correct me if I mis-speak), Chalice is a problem in Vintage when set at 0 because decks already skimp on mana and shutting off jewelry is devastating.

So while Chalice is the same card in Vintage and Legacy, what it does (shutting off mana production versus cantrips) is vastly different.

Edit - Nath'd by Dice

[maharis]

Vintage and Legacy are far different, for one, MISHRAS WORKSHOP IS A CARD.

The difference between Vintage artifact-based Shops decks having Workshop in addition to Tomb/City and Legacy Eldrazi lists having Temple and Eye in addition to Tomb/City is smaller than you think. While Vintage has more ways to deploy lock pieces on turn 1, the Eldrazi decks can put a ton more pressure on early, which is probably a wash when it comes to who has a better chance of winning the game based on their early plays.

Plus casting two Eldrazi in a turn with an Eye out is like having a workshop that taps for 4. I don't think that happens as much in Legacy as Modern though.

Edit:


My understanding (which is admittedly limited, Vintage players can correct me if I mis-speak), Chalice is a problem in Vintage when set at 0 because decks already skimp on mana and shutting off jewelry is devastating.

So while Chalice is the same card in Vintage and Legacy, what it does (shutting off mana production versus cantrips) is vastly different.

Edit - Nath'd by Dice

You and Dice are both right, of course, though in Legacy, the effect of Chalice is more like a big Mind Twist than land destruction, which is equally devastating since many decks use 1-drops to skimp on land themselves (dorks, cantrips, GSZ)

But I do want to state again that I think Chalice is fine. I just think TKS and Reality Smasher are stupid, uninteractive creatures that make previous pushed guys like DRS and Delver and SFM look like Scryb Sprites.

[iatee]

I think once they ban Chalice - which I would say is eventually more likely to happen than not - Eldrazi will still be a strong deck, maybe even t1. 16 Sol Lands and Mimic/TKS/Reality Smasher is a really strong aggro deck.

But without Chalice, people have more consistent access to cards that can punish that shell. One mana removal spells punish decks that tap 3 lands for a creature, Brainstorm lets you draw into whatever your anti-aggro or punish-your greedy manabase cards are.

[Cire]

I don't think Chalice is a problem, nor do I have a problem with playing against Chalice/stompy. But this particular deck has the potential to crowd out lots more decks than just the Delver strategy that everyone loves to hate.

For example, what is D&T supposed to do -- its only one drop is essentially a dead card, its mana acceleration is slower, its disruption doesn't matter (13-16 sol lands vs. 8 disruptive lands, plus one that doesn't even need to tap), and its only removal is shut down by the main lock piece.


This ignores decks that are good against Eldrazi like enchantress and lands. D&T not good anymore - great - play another deck or stick with D&T. People have been playing pet tier 2 decks for years, Eldrazi's rise only reorganizes the tiers.

[GundamGuy]

I think once they ban Chalice - which I would say is eventually more likely to happen than not - Eldrazi will still be a strong deck, maybe even t1. 16 Sol Lands and Mimic/TKS/Reality Smasher is a really strong aggro deck.

But without Chalice, people have more consistent access to cards that can punish that shell. One mana removal spells punish decks that tap 3 lands for a creature, Brainstorm lets you draw into whatever your anti-aggro or punish-your greedy manabase cards are.

I think banning Chalice is as likely as them banning Brainstorm.

[iatee]

D+T is not as wrecked by T1 Chalice as other decks and has an okay Eldrazi matchup. It is wrecked by T1 Chalice with some hands, and T1 Chalice does literally nothing against others, or if they have it G1 on the draw.

Again, it just becomes about the dice roll - if Eldrazi keeps a T1 Chalice hand, it turns out their mystery opponent is playing D+T and kept a hand around Aether Vial, they are very favored if they won the dice roll, and maybe Eldrazi has a very weak hand if they lose the dice roll. These kinda situations are dumb and not good for the game.

[MGB]

Played the deck tonight. A flipped Delver and a resolved Pyromancer is often too much for you to handle.

While I can make life hard for my opponent, going wider than this deck is a very effect foil.

The best builds going forward will probably be playing Eldrazi Displacer. Displacer on Delver = good luck keeping your 3/2 flier around.