And then it hit me..

[bruizar]

Playing with Eldrazi I have embraced the Eldrazi and can say that I love the Eldrazi decks. Finally being able to play a viable workshop aggro deck in legacy was my goal for years. I came from the vintage community and had access to all the decks but played dredge and workshop nearly exclusively. Brewing endlessly in the legacy MUD thread, trying out different Stax builds, building Red MUD inspired by Red Shop Aggro and welder stax decks, failing, succeeding, then failing some more.

Now that the Legacy Workshop decks are finally here, it suddenly dawned on me. This may have been an inside job to sabotage legacy. Was it by design? And I don't mean RND simply knew that the cards were good, I mean RNDs intent was to stifle the legacy meta-game to drive people to modern. Let me explain.. I remember vintage. Vintage was a great and diverse place until Worldwake was released. Lodestone Golem single handedly kept the format in its clutches for years and it sort of still does with 23% of the meta represented on mtgtop8.com.

Legacy's Lodestone Golem is Thought-Knot Seer. It too, is a turn 2 play often following a turn one Chalice of the Void. A play sequence familiar to vintage players: Turn one Sphere (and sometimes chalice on 0 in addition) into turn 2 Lodestone Golem is a notoriously common start. In doing so, Lodestone Golem prevents players from casting spells in the first place. This is exactly what TKS does, but it is executed through a different mechanic.

So my hypothesis is that wizards released this behemoth with the intent of shifting the legacy meta game into a similar static state as vintage in order to increase the demand for Modern. By the time we all figure this out, Eternal Masters is released and it will probably proof to be a financial success. All these new eternal cards may essentially be dead, dead because the Eldrazi may have poisoned the card-pool, and everybody is drinking the same source. As for what's happening in modern... The collateral damage on Modern was unavoidable and will get handled with bans. Pretty soon, we'll be casting spells for their madness cost via Jace in modern anyway.

So, the effect is that the metagame is in uproar. Blue is pushed back and fringe decks day 2'd in philly. I hope not, but given time, perhaps we'll see that the Eldrazi is just too strong of an archetype with the effect that the entire meta-game warps around them. The diversity of the field may suffer from this and we may end up in a similar triangle like vintage:

- Dredge
- Eldrazi
- Rest

Note: Do take it with a grain of salt. This is just a very speculative hypothesis.

[Crimhead]

If this was a sabotage it has failed. Eldrazis Shops is awesome, but has its shitty MUs.

I think youve been living with disappointment so long you simply front dare to rejoice.

[bruizar]

I honestly hope you are right.

I've seen this before. Worldwake was released, I snap bought 4 foil Lodestone Golems, and then attendance levels for vintage tournaments started dropping locally because people didn't like playing against oppressive workshop decks anymore. It took years for vintage to evolve its meta-game and the format never flourished the same way it did before Lodestone Golem.

Snap bought 4 foil Thought-Knot Seers and I see the same things happening. At the modern FNM 2 days ago, I manhandled a guy with good Eldrazi hands and he rage-quitted so hard he didn't want to talk to me anymore, walking off ranting that he'll be back in 2 months after the ban. This is what Lodestone Golem in vintage did for a lot of people in the past (note: vintage was not a creature format back then, so bolts weren't played). I hope legacy players can handle the Eldrazi decks.

Meanwhile, I'm going to rejoice :)

[Barook]

Machinations like this are beyond the scope of Wizards. You're giving them way too much credit. When it comes to WotC, the primary rule is:

"When in doubt, blame Wizards' incompetence."

They explored some previously untapped design space instead of recycling the same stuff at higher mana costs ad nausem. Whenever this happens, chances are it spawns either underpowered shit or some cards that are pushed until they're broken - because they don't know any better due to lack of previous designs. Phyrexian mana comes into mind. Or the return of Delve. C isn't any different from that.

They didn't test the set for Modern or anything Eternal. Long story short, they fucked up once again, at least as far as Modern is concerned. But I'm not too worried about Legacy. The meta will adapt. Expect more Wasteland (recursion) and Dismembers in the future.

[Tormod]

Anything to bring down the number of miracle decks.
I'm so damn bored of playing against that deck.

[MGB]

It was either irresponsible or intentionally reckless to print stupidly pushed cards such as Thought-Knot Seer in the latest set. They either didn't care about the effect such cards, alongside Eldrazi Temples, Eye of Ugins, and the like, would have on older formats (possible), or they intentionally designed them to be powerful in those formats, perhaps to force new cards to see play in older formats with the intention of marketing the latest set.

I personally think that there is a strong push from Hasbro on the Wizards development team to find new ways to boost product sales even higher and that printing "sure-fire" Modern/Legacy playables is one strategy they devised to sell more Magic product to a wider player base. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to Modern and Legacy players recently who have actually told me they have cracked booster boxes / cases of the new sets not only to find Expedition lands but because the sets have featured obviously eternal-playable cards.

[davelin]

When they print to legacy-viable cards there are complaints. So when they do print them...even more complaints?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I think a lot of it is just residual modern anger. It's cool that eldrazi can compete, it's far from unbeatable and the people who weren't playing it weren't preparing for it so I'm not surprised it ran some people over.

[Dice_Box]

Never put down to malice, that which can be explained by stupidity.

Also I for one welcome a new deck. It's about fucking time something changed. We had the same old dead format, a break thanks to delve and then the same old dead format. Now I can play Shops in two formats and I am loving that.

If your deck can't play well against Shops, well, cry me a river. You have all had the best manipulation, control and creatures in Blue for years with little recourse. This was needed and it's about time. Lands, Eldrazi and Painter, come forth my loves, the format needs you.

[Bobmans]

Well put Bruizar, well put.
It is all hypothesis, but i really fear that Eldrazi Stompy is going to be bad news for the format. I am not against the archetype itself, but an MUD player for years. But the power of this is an unhealthy one. Great perspective to place it Bruizar.




Anything to bring down the number of miracle decks.
I'm so damn bored of playing against that deck.

Even at the cost of the format?

[Echelon]

Meh, Legacy will adapt. There are still decks that can handle Eldrazi just fine. Those decks have their weaknesses and so on and so on. Heck, it might even spawn a few new decks!

[nevilshute]

I honestly hope you are right.

I've seen this before. Worldwake was released, I snap bought 4 foil Lodestone Golems, and then attendance levels for vintage tournaments started dropping locally because people didn't like playing against oppressive workshop decks anymore. It took years for vintage to evolve its meta-game and the format never flourished the same way it did before Lodestone Golem.

Snap bought 4 foil Thought-Knot Seers and I see the same things happening. At the modern FNM 2 days ago, I manhandled a guy with good Eldrazi hands and he rage-quitted so hard he didn't want to talk to me anymore, walking off ranting that he'll be back in 2 months after the ban. This is what Lodestone Golem in vintage did for a lot of people in the past (note: vintage was not a creature format back then, so bolts weren't played). I hope legacy players can handle the Eldrazi decks.

Meanwhile, I'm going to rejoice :)

Regarding the bolded part:

Can you support this claim by anything other than gut feeling? I mean even if you can point to an actual decline in Vintage turn out can you prove a significant correlation between that and the printing of Lodestone Golem? I'm genuinly interested and not trying to be cheeky.

It's a scary proposition and I personally detest playing against hard prison pieces and so if something along those lines are in store for Legacy I do worry.

But I accept that for some people, locking your opponent out of the game - preferably turn 1 - is fun.

[bruizar]

Regarding the bolded part:

Can you support this claim by anything other than gut feeling? I mean even if you can point to an actual decline in Vintage turn out can you prove a significant correlation between that and the printing of Lodestone Golem? I'm genuinly interested and not trying to be cheeky.

It's a scary proposition and I personally detest playing against hard prison pieces and so if something along those lines are in store for Legacy I do worry.

But I accept that for some people, locking your opponent out of the game - preferably turn 1 - is fun.

I can't statistically validate my anecdotal vintage experience. What I do know is that I went to Bazaar of Moxen 3 in may 2010 (Worldwake was release in March 2010) and attendance was very good. The big European tournaments gained traction but the smaller local tournaments started to lose support because of shops' oppression. Before this time we had 40-60 player vintage tournaments on a monthly basis, ranging from decks like dredge, stax, mud to bomberman, oath, TPS, MS Paint, Dragon, Goblins, Tropical Storm (Gushbond), Control Slaver and a bunch more decks. I believe Lotus Cobra was played to try and counter the taxing effects of Lodestone Golem in gushbond decks, but TPS and Gush decks just couldn't compete against the barrage of spheres anymore. A similar fate happened to other decks. The overall power level of the format was bumped as a whole, and more decks were pushed out of the format.

I shifted focus to legacy by that time, so what happened after that I don't really know but when I look at vintage today it has become an efficient creature format and Hangarback Shops still oppresses even after the Chalice of the Void restriction.

The numbers dwindled to 15-20 player tournaments and then to no tournaments at all. It seems nowadays the only vintage tournaments left are the big tournaments that are combined in long weekends where you can also play modern and legacy, such as BoM.


---

Thus far it looks as though Eldrazi can be beat in the legacy format and it looks to have only positive effects on the meta game in the short term, but I wonder if that will remain true once the lists are optimized.

[Echelon]

Thus far it looks as though Eldrazi can be beat in the legacy format and it looks to have only positive effects on the meta game in the short term, but I wonder if that will remain true once the lists are optimized.

The same holds true for when people figure out the most effective way for their decks to deal with Eldrazi. It works both ways.

[nevilshute]

The same holds true for when people figure out the most effective way for their decks to deal with Eldrazi. It works both ways.

Well yes and no. Neither is a given. It might not be that there is much more room to develop the Eldrazi list (though probably there is) but it is also not a given that decks that were hithero fine in the Legacy habitat but are now hunted prey will be able to develop relevant countermeasures.

Take storm - a deck that I'm very familiar with. I'm currently testing Hurkyl's Recall and Ancient Tombs in the sideboard - a la vintage storm - but I would posit that even if I were to run them in the main deck that wouldn't push me to within reach of having an even matchup vs Eldrazi. And the cost would likely be greater in my other matchups.

I'm not saying that that proves anything, but right now people are scrambling (in both Modern and Legacy) to find tech that beats Eldrazi in a meaningful way and the answers so far have been to either play decks that have a natural strong(ish) gameplan vs Eldrazi (and there aren't that many in the current main stream) or incorporate stuff like Worship and Ensnaring Bridge which does feel a bit like trying to use a bandaid on a broken leg.

[Echelon]

Well yes and no. Neither is a given. It might not be that there is much more room to develop the Eldrazi list (though probably there is) but it is also not a given that decks that were hithero fine in the Legacy habitat but are now hunted prey will be able to develop relevant countermeasures.

Take storm - a deck that I'm very familiar with. I'm currently testing Hurkyl's Recall and Ancient Tombs in the sideboard - a la vintage storm - but I would posit that even if I were to run them in the main deck that wouldn't push me to within reach of having an even matchup vs Eldrazi. And the cost would likely be greater in my other matchups.

I'm not saying that that proves anything, but right now people are scrambling (in both Modern and Legacy) to find tech that beats Eldrazi in a meaningful way and the answers so far have been to either play decks that have a natural strong(ish) gameplan vs Eldrazi (and there aren't that many in the current main stream) or incorporate stuff like Worship and Ensnaring Bridge which does feel a bit like trying to use a bandaid on a broken leg.

I agree with what you're saying. On the other hand it might just mean that we could lose Storm but gain some other (at the moment still unknown) deck in return. It'll probably become one big circlejerk. Storm might get pushed out by Eldrazi, the next thing comes along and kills off Eldrazi and that thing in turn folds to the resurgence of Storm and so on and so on.

Also, isn't it the nature of Legacy that some decks eventually go the way of the dodo? It sucks for those piloting the deck in question, absolutely, but that's just the nature of the game. Cardboard Darwinism.

[nevilshute]

I agree with what you're saying. On the other hand it might just mean that we could lose Storm but gain some other (at the moment still unknown) deck in return. It'll probably become one big circlejerk. Storm might get pushed out by Eldrazi, the next thing comes along and kills off Eldrazi and that thing in turn folds to the resurgence of Storm and so on and so on.

Also, isn't it the nature of Legacy that some decks eventually go the way of the dodo? It sucks for those piloting the deck in question, absolutely, but that's just the nature of the game. Cardboard Darwinism.

No I'm not disagreeing and I think Darwinism is an apt analogy. I merely wanted to point out that exact thing actually, which is, that decks don't just adapt. Some will die out (read: move down the teirs). I just find it disappointing that the next step in evolution involves Chalice@1. But that's personal opinion.

[Echelon]

No I'm not disagreeing and I think Darwinism is an apt analogy. I merely wanted to point out that exact thing actually, which is, that decks don't just adapt. Some will die out (read: move down the teirs). I just find it disappointing that the next step in evolution involves Chalice@1. But that's personal opinion.

Yeah, I can only imagine the dodo wasn't all too happy about going extinct either. Fucking humans.

[Wordslinger]

cmon you guys! there was no way brainstorm was getting banned, so this is the next best thing! you spent so much time punishing us WITH your efficiency, now you have a deck punishing you FOR your efficiency you get to complain?

Grixis, play innocent blood! BGX has decay, board deed! I'm miracles boo-hoo i can't play my cantrips "Sob" You have Terminus, Stp and blood moon in the board. Playing combo? Play faster combo!

"But Wordslinger, now i cant consitently find those answers every game becauwse my eldrazi opponent is using his taxing effects to disrupt my cantrips-"

HAHAHAHAHA

Cry me a river. Honestly this thing making blue decks have to account for it in the meta is the best thing to happen to nonblue decks.

sorry if this comes across as unfocused but a lot of what people are saying comes across as not wanting to have to slaughter sacred cows to adjust to meta changes.

You don't even have to overcommit! just make your removal more catchall. Set Adrift! Murdurous Cut! AAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUGHHHHHHHHH tooo many eldrzzzi the sky is falling the sky is falling ban ban ban ban-

[bruizar]

cmon you guys! there was no way brainstorm was getting banned, so this is the next best thing! you spent so much time punishing us WITH your efficiency, now you have a deck punishing you FOR your efficiency you get to complain?

Grixis, play innocent blood! BGX has decay, board deed! I'm miracles boo-hoo i can't play my cantrips "Sob" You have Terminus, Stp and blood moon in the board. Playing combo? Play faster combo!

"But Wordslinger, now i cant consitently find those answers every game becauwse my eldrazi opponent is using his taxing effects to disrupt my cantrips-"

HAHAHAHAHA

Cry me a river. Honestly this thing making blue decks have to account for it in the meta is the best thing to happen to nonblue decks.

sorry if this comes across as unfocused but a lot of what people are saying comes across as not wanting to have to slaughter sacred cows to adjust to meta changes.

You don't even have to overcommit! just make your removal more catchall. Set Adrift! Murdurous Cut! AAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUGHHHHHHHHH tooo many eldrzzzi the sky is falling the sky is falling ban ban ban ban-

I laughed :D.

Now the blue players can feel what its like to live off the top of your library. I expect Sylvan Library to gain traction in order to circumvent chalice on one.

[nevilshute]

Is it realistic to expect a sort of circular development a la:

- 1cmc decks (blue decks, whatever we want to call them) are the "best" in the format.

- A chalice deck presents itself that crushes the 1cmc decks. (EDIT: yes I know there have chalice decks all along but this one is actually good enough / of a high enough consistent powerlevel).

- Once this decks establishes itself 1cmc decks will become less and less prevalent. Which in turn will make the chalice decks less good.

- Decks will begin to prey on the chalice decks leading to a decline in those.

- 1cmc decks will rise again due to the decrease in chalice decks

- Repeat.

?

[bruizar]

Is it realistic to expect a sort of circular development a la:

- 1cmc decks (blue decks, whatever we want to call them) are the "best" in the format.

- A chalice deck presents itself that crushes the 1cmc decks. (EDIT: yes I know there have chalice decks all along but this one is actually good enough / of a high enough consistent powerlevel).

- Once this decks establishes itself 1cmc decks will become less and less prevalent. Which in turn will make the chalice decks less good.

- Decks will begin to prey on the chalice decks leading to a decline in those.

- 1cmc decks will rise again due to the decrease in chalice decks

- Repeat.

?

The hypothesis I outlined suggests that at some point, an equilibrium will be reached where the three or four best archetypes drown out the rest of the format. In the beginning, these meta game cycles will be more pronounced/volatile but this will eventually become less and less volatile until it reaches a stasis at the equilibrium point. I think dredge/manaless dredge might be the sleeper of tomorrow's format as it naturally preys on workshop decks and control decks.

[Echelon]

I think dredge/manaless dredge might be the sleeper of tomorrow's format as it naturally preys on workshop decks and control decks.

Shush! Don't spoil the surprise just yet...

But yeah - non blue decks that allow you to durdle for 2/3 turns are your ideal opponent when piloting Manaless Dredge. All you need to do is to get 3 creatures on the field, Dread Return a Balustrade Spy (or Griselbrand/assorted other creatures...), flip your deck into your graveyard and you win on the spot.

[nevilshute]

How is manaless dredge ever beating a sphere effect? Or maybe I'm missing your point :smile:

[Dice_Box]

How is manaless dredge ever beating a sphere effect? Or maybe I'm missing your point :smile:

By bouncing creatures into play due to effects and then letting them die to get tokens.

[Echelon]

Depending on the build Nether Shadows, Ichorids, Bloodghasts and hordes of tokens.

Manaless Dredge is a beatdown deck first and foremost that just constantly threatens with the combo finish. Most opponents just focus on stopping the combo and don't realise what's going on until you've amassed an army of beaters. Also don't forget that where Eldrazi draws 1 card per turn, Dredge "draws" 6. They will be outgunned.

The build with Bloodghast could potentially even get the mana needed to resolve 1/2 Dread Return. Just add in a Progenitus so you can untap safely after flipping most of your/your entire library.

And then there's stuff like Chancellor of the Annex and the blue build that runs FoW/Disrupting Shoal.

The only things the deck really folds to are Grafdigger's Cage/Rest in Peace. Containment Priest is something that can be answered (with some difficulty and you don't always get the opportunity to do so, but still).

[Gheizen64]

The problem i see with that idea is that Lands is a deck that is extremely strong vs eldrazis and as thus eldrazi lists will always play ample grave hate in the board. It is no help that a lot of combo in this format (reanimator, storm) rely on the graveyard in varying degrees, as well as aggro (Goyf, KotR, Gurmag Anglers, snapcaster, eventually anything that recurr) and control (lands) so i don't think grave hate will go anywhere.

This is all ignoring any eventually good delirium cards, will which increase reliance on graveyards even more, and consequentially make grave hate better.

[Echelon]

Some GY hate you don't need to care about. GY sweepers are annoying but can be overcome (as long as you keep a full hand), other cards might cause the blue Manaless build to be the go-to. Perhaps somewhere down the line there'll be a hybrid build that runs Daze, FoW and Shoal for all we know. And as long as GY hate isn't maindecked, your opponent only needs to whiff on his GY hate once for the win (as you're likely to win G1).

If Manaless ever gets dominant just mainboard 4 Grafdigger's Cage & 4 Rest in Peace and you're done. You could add Meddling Mage, Dryad Militant and Containment Priest for good measure, but that should do it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Just add in a Progenitus so you can untap safely after flipping most of your/your entire library.
Progenitus shuffles into your library when it hits the graveyard.


Perhaps somewhere down the line there'll be a hybrid build that runs Daze, FoW and Shoal for all we know.
Manaless Dredge can never cast Daze.

[Hopo]

Progenitus shuffles into your library when it hits the graveyard.


That's what the post was all about. Because of that you get to untap, draw and kill.

[Barook]

Some GY hate you don't need to care about. GY sweepers are annoying but can be overcome (as long as you keep a full hand), other cards might cause the blue Manaless build to be the go-to. Perhaps somewhere down the line there'll be a hybrid build that runs Daze, FoW and Shoal for all we know. And as long as GY hate isn't maindecked, your opponent only needs to whiff on his GY hate once for the win (as you're likely to win G1).

If Manaless ever gets dominant just mainboard 4 Grafdigger's Cage & 4 Rest in Peace and you're done. You could add Meddling Mage, Dryad Militant and Containment Priest for good measure, but that should do it.
I don't think it even needs to be this excessive. T1 Thorn can completely shut down any spells they play, significantly slowing them down. In the white version, a combination of RiP and Containment Priest do the rest.

We need to see how the meta is going to evolve, but I don't think "cheesing" Eldrazi with cheap, "unfair" strategies is going to work in the long run. The white splash is simply too attractive and effective due to its flexibility when encountering these decks. Granted, it's slower than the Aggro version - which introduces other problems (like getting destroyed in the mirror).

[Ace/Homebrew]

That's what the post was all about. Because of that you get to untap, draw and kill.
Ahhh! Untap and safely draw a card.

[Fox]

Legacy Eldrazi is fine, and while it does have some pretty frustrating unintended victims, I think it's generally a positive change. Now like vintage workshops it unfortunately puts a little too much emphasis on the die roll, and that's not likely to change with 4x chalice being legal. As far as the unintended victims, I think it's generally unhealthy for legacy to have a deck like this basically autowin vs storm - since ANT is kind of the speed police of legacy and forces you to adhere to 'good' [fast] deck construction. It does have an overwhelmingly positive effect on the meta though, smashing miracles wherever they meet - miracles a deck that forces you to make 'bad' [slow] deck construction.

The eldrazi deck is far from unbeatable, for instance it has no cards that let it recover from countered T1 lock piece into dreadnought -> stifle....you lose. In a more general sense Lands (as Gheizen64 points out) and DnT (and other 'batterskull combo' decks to a slightly lesser degree) will remain terrible matchups for eldrazi.

What is unfortunate is that there are all-or-nothing bans in magic, they won't fix a card like chalice to have a clause that says "can't be played t1" or "can't be played if opponent has no land in play." Instead we rely on 4 copies of FoW to enact that effect, and as long as the total number of crippling Turn 0-1 lock pieces is around 8 at most, the DCI isn't likely to step in. Here we should at least credit them for making trinisphere unplayable with eldrazi.

[bigwerdz]

Turn 1 chalice decks have been around for a while. This eldrazi deck is just ok. It may be enough to change format but it's nowhere near format defining like in modern. Like I understand people are salty but this is in no way going to kill legacy.

[Sloshthedark]

I'm the last one who would advocate for banning and cry you a river, every Legacy ban during my renewed Mtg presence was something I strongly disliked (Mystical Tutor, SotF), did not feel like needed (Dig) or did not care about (MM, TC - although these two were a bit stupid) other than have to listen people crying over it... and I won't do so now, although Eldrazi affects my deck/legacy life the most of all of them...

the comparison to BS is plain stupid, same as the perception of duality of U and non U is so... also I appreciate that Legacy is/was slowly evolving, I find it highly acceptable by adult human aspiring for RL...

What I randomly saw during the weekend - SCG R10 - Eldrazi mirror, was disgusting ... for me, this what I imagine is draft mtg like - you have a dude me play bigger dude, turn sideways, no dude, I die, you win... the Jitte made some skill requirement and the thing watchable... I mean it worked, the cards are designed to battle each other well, but this is not what I imagine legacy is about... yet this is what WotC loves about the game and wants to create... and many people were waiting for, they want new things, swings and brewing like in other formats - I don't understand it for me the legacy process takes years, gathering the cards and exploring the cardpool and can't imagine managing more than 2-3 decks at expert level without living a mtg only life... perhaps for other people it's more shallow experience, I don't mind the game evolving but I do mind it simplifying and being marketed/taken for an idiot... the (losing) battle for the life of Legacy is fought in the inside though, the game (Wotc) has trained new wave of player addapted, accepted and demanding this kind of things (perpetual changes, "solving" formats, lesser format playing and design habits) which pollutes and degenerates (evolves) the game I like into something I'm not interested in, just as things I liked about the format 6y back was too much for people who played it before and sold me their cards... damn, forgot what I'm ranting about or why... yes, I'm old

TL, DR
I find it stupid, boring and overall accepted to perish as a legacy dinosaurus eventually... meanwhile I'll intend to simply slash through the masses with what I was given until the meteor, spaceship, planeswalkers or whatever comes...

[GundamGuy]

Man the people complaining about Chalice of the Void... Welcome to Legacy.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Man the people complaining about Chalice of the Void... Welcome to Legacy.

As the LORD OF THE CHALICE, I will drink in all the salty tears of blue mages.

[Quasim0ff]

Man the people complaining about Chalice of the Void... Welcome to Legacy.

What do you mean, "Welcome to Legacy"? Legacy is a format largely revolving around 1CMC. Chalice makes it so that only one person can actually participate in the game. The card is un fun to play against, for the vast majority of people. This doesn't mean it's an argument for banning it, but it leads to more nongames than any other card in the format.

*But sure, it's a winning strategy. I don't deny that. That doesn't mean it's fun to play against. A turn 1 chalice on the play is very close to be a winning play.

[Admiral_Arzar]

What do you mean, "Welcome to Legacy"? Legacy is a format largely revolving around 1CMC. Chalice makes it so that only one person can actually participate in the game. The card is un fun to play against, for the vast majority of people. This doesn't mean it's an argument for banning it, but it leads to more nongames than any other card in the format.

*But sure, it's a winning strategy. I don't deny that. That doesn't mean it's fun to play against. A turn 1 chalice on the play is very close to be a winning play.

Yup, Chalice is unfun to play against. Just like Counter-top, turn 1 Delver with Daze backup, turn 1 combos, Loam/Waste lock, Thalia + Ports, and just about every other strong play that Legacy decks make. At least Chalice requires you to warp your deck around it, unlike Counter-Top which is a one-sided Chalice at several numbers.

[GundamGuy]

What do you mean, "Welcome to Legacy"? Legacy is a format largely revolving around 1CMC. Chalice makes it so that only one person can actually participate in the game. The card is un fun to play against, for the vast majority of people. This doesn't mean it's an argument for banning it, but it leads to more nongames than any other card in the format.

Legacy is a format full of cards that are not fun to play against. (Opinions of what is or is not fun may vary)

Moon, Thalia, Chalice, Port, Wasteland, Counterbalance, Top,.... Sink Hole... there is a long, long list of such cards. Lot's of cards that punish you for how you build your deck.... that's legacy for you.

[H]

What do you mean, "Welcome to Legacy"? Legacy is a format largely revolving around 1CMC. Chalice makes it so that only one person can actually participate in the game. The card is un fun to play against, for the vast majority of people. This doesn't mean it's an argument for banning it, but it leads to more nongames than any other card in the format.

*But sure, it's a winning strategy. I don't deny that. That doesn't mean it's fun to play against. A turn 1 chalice on the play is very close to be a winning play.

Umm, Blood Moon?

[bruizar]

Yup, Chalice is unfun to play against. Just like Counter-top, turn 1 Delver with Daze backup, turn 1 combos, Loam/Waste lock, Thalia + Ports, and just about every other strong play that Legacy decks make. At least Chalice requires you to warp your deck around it, unlike Counter-Top which is a one-sided Chalice at several numbers.

Thank you. Non-miracles players have been abused for several years by one-sided chalices and they get to use brainstorms and ponders and tops IN ADDITION to nullifying opponents' one drops.

[Quasim0ff]

There are many more possibilities to beat countertop, than a turn1 chalice on the play - Daze, Spell Pierce, REB - Counterbalance is a turn 2 play. Chalice is a turn 1 play, on the play. That pretty much means you have to have FoW or lose.

I stand by my argument; Chalice leads to more non-games than any other card in the format. Blood Moon isn't as much a blowout as chalice turn 1 is - Besides are there one deck that plays maindeck blood moon, and that's Painter. That deck is not exactly known for it's consistency.

There's ONE card mentioned anywhere, which can lead to a turn 1 win (much, much, much less consistently than Chalice, that is too) and that's wasteland.

A chalice for one leads people not to PLAY the game. None of the other cards (besides a Blood Moon, for some people, I guess?) makes it impossible. All the cards mentioned by people loving Eldrazi are cards that can actually be fought against. Chalice is a lot like sideboards in modern: You land this haymaker, and you're pretty close to winning the game. Counter-Top doesn't do this, Thalia (Thorn of Amethyst), Wasteland, Rishidan Port.

"You have to construct your deck in order to play Chalice". That's not really true anymore, now, is it? It worked like that before, it doesn't with the new Eldrazi cards, as they actually WANT you to play stuff like Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors anyway. It's not like it's mud with Cloudpost etc.

[Dice_Box]

While I will admit I am guilty of taking part, I am now going to point out we have a ban thread. Please take the talk about Chalice there.

[Gheizen64]

You know what's fun? When i* whined about having to play against cantrip.dec 9 games out of 10 making each game feel the same and unfun, people called "us" whiners and losers, and go play modern and whatever. This at 80%+ penetration of cantrip.dec in Legacy. Now that a deck is what, 20% of the meta? and is designed as a counter to cantrip.dec (while still not being an hard counter, see for example grixis delver with angler/pyro/strix etc... which goes even vs it) and is actually PLAYABLE, people whine about "the good old format" despite a format where cantrip.dec is 80% of the meta is an aberration of the last 2-3 years, and not something that was true since the format started existing.

Blue mages crying? boo-fucking-hoo maybe now the cantrip cartel will be only 50% of the meta and you may have an actually sorta unfavorable MU. Seriously after 700 pages of B&R restricted list telling people not to cry over brainstorm being everywhere, i expected something better.

Now the legacy meta could actually have a new pillar , a strategy not fueled by the cantrip cartel that's actually viable. I for one embrace the new Eldrazi Overlords.

[rufus]

...

Now the legacy meta could actually have a new pillar , a strategy not fueled by the cantrip cartel that's actually viable. I for one embrace the new Eldrazi Overlords.

I don't think WoTC designed the Eldrazi to be dominant in particular, but this new world order with better creatures was inevitably going to change the metagames.

[Gheizen64]

I don't think WoTC designed the Eldrazi to be dominant in particular, but this new world order with better creatures was inevitably going to change the metagames.

For sure, i don't think WotC actually predict any change, especially after they say things like "we didn't think CoCo would be good in standard". They may be good at designing, but predicting format, well, that may be another story.

[Barook]

For sure, i don't think WotC actually predict any change, especially after they say things like "we didn't think CoCo would be good in standard". They may be good at designing, but predicting format, well, that may be another story.
I don't think many people are good at predicting the impact of all cards. I remember people calling TC bad (IIRC, I was guilty of that, too) or calling DRS a shitty BoP/Lavamancer. There are obviously good cards like Abrupt Decay that catch everybodies' attention, but there are also many hidden gems that can only be fully evaluated after seeing them in action.


I don't think WoTC designed the Eldrazi to be dominant in particular, but this new world order with better creatures was inevitably going to change the metagames.
The crux is that those cheap, undercosted creatures normally feed blue shells first. The unique nature of Eldrazi, their accel and their C requirement are as prohibiting as it can get to prevent blue from abusing them the most.

[Fox]

I think people need a reality check if they think chalice is less fun to play against than counterbalance. Let's be very clear on this point: you can fight a chalice, but you can't fight counterbalance. More precisely, in the absence of terrible mana curves, you need 10-12 "kill that counterbalance" cards to deal with it; you're actually better off with a sideboard strategy of killing basic plains to shut off half the counterbalance deck - you can also just not play magic (caverns full of boseju).

There is one [terrible] 2cmc answer to counterbalance: Abrupt Decay. Meanwhile you'd be very hard pressed to find any color that has no 2cmc answer to chalice x=1. Chalice does nothing to defend itself from the 2cmc kill-spell, nor is it able to protect itself from the fact that it has 0cmc and can be tampered with by manipulating counters. Even if you suffer from a lack of creativity and want to play legacy like standard (1-for-1 mindless removal format), chalice is waaaaay more manageable than counterbalance (and you don't have to sit through 20 minutes of insufferable top spinning to tell you what you already know: you can't resolve any spell under 3 cmc).

I mean if they printed a Leyline of "remove all counterbalances from decks (and hands) from the game before it starts" it would actually be a 4x in sideboards.

[Gheizen64]

That is also true. Chalice is an extremely easy to remove permanent that is played in a deck that play no permission. Abrupt decay , shattering spree, ancient grudges etc... are all your friend.

[Crimhead]

I think people need a reality check if they think chalice is less fun to play against than counterbalance. Just a thought - maybe people are worried they will have to play against both?

Everyone assumes that the haters are mostly sour cantrip players. What if the people complaining about Shops are the same people who complain about Miracles and the cantrips. Shops could be just like Lands and D&T - another nonblue option that is not the sort of nonblue deck most people want to play.

[Richard Cheese]

There are many more possibilities to beat countertop, than a turn1 chalice on the play - Daze, Spell Pierce, REB - Counterbalance is a turn 2 play. Chalice is a turn 1 play, on the play. That pretty much means you have to have FoW or lose.

I stand by my argument; Chalice leads to more non-games than any other card in the format. Blood Moon isn't as much a blowout as chalice turn 1 is - Besides are there one deck that plays maindeck blood moon, and that's Painter. That deck is not exactly known for it's consistency.

There's ONE card mentioned anywhere, which can lead to a turn 1 win (much, much, much less consistently than Chalice, that is too) and that's wasteland.

A chalice for one leads people not to PLAY the game. None of the other cards (besides a Blood Moon, for some people, I guess?) makes it impossible. All the cards mentioned by people loving Eldrazi are cards that can actually be fought against. Chalice is a lot like sideboards in modern: You land this haymaker, and you're pretty close to winning the game. Counter-Top doesn't do this, Thalia (Thorn of Amethyst), Wasteland, Rishidan Port.

"You have to construct your deck in order to play Chalice". That's not really true anymore, now, is it? It worked like that before, it doesn't with the new Eldrazi cards, as they actually WANT you to play stuff like Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors anyway. It's not like it's mud with Cloudpost etc.

This is entirely untrue. There's not a single deck in Legacy that solely consists of 1-drops, and there are some commonly played maindeck answers like Vial, Cavern, and especially Abrupt Decay. There are decks that don't run a single basic or red spell though. For those decks, a turn 0/1 Blood Moon means you can't play a single spell unless you have Force or already landed a Deathrite.

I don't think either is prohibitively unfair though. Various Chalice decks have existed in the format for years and haven't ever been a huge problem because they naturally have to trade the consistency that the standard cantrip suite provides for those powerful early game plays. Same for Blood Moon. Both also lose a ton of power when you're on the draw because they become open to Daze and Pierce, or allow vital turn 1 plays like Top, DRS, Delver, and Vial.

I can see Eldrazi decks being a bit better than past iterations just because they have more threats and can run them out more consistently with the additional Eldrazi lands. They're also playing a lot of fatties that are immune to some of the standard removal like Decay and P. Fire. Still, they run a greedy manabase and will have mulligan issues like Stax and MUD have for years. There are also a handful of decks that are already pretty well-equipped to fight a Chalice deck game 1, like Loam, Elves, Dredge, and Lands.

I actually think this is a good thing rather than the end of the world. It's a bit annoying that they basically printed a deck in a single block, but for a lot of folks like myself the format has felt stale for a few years now, so it's nice to see a bit of a shake up.

[Ellomdian]

As the LORD OF THE CHALICE, I will drink in all the salty tears of blue mages.

I think there are few people who have been as big a proponent of Chalice in Legacy as myself. I just prefer to play it in a blue shell that draws better cards and plays fewer pesky 'Creatures.' Whenever Tempo decks threaten the format, it's time to dust off T1 Chalice for 1.

Legacy Shops (or MUD as more people call it) has been a borderline competitive deck for a long time. The issue is that play patterns were similar to those of Tron decks in modern, and if you didn't have your engines going, you didn't really have a hope to cast half of your deck. So Eldrazi in legacy does the same thing it does in Modern - the engines are simplified, and the cards are cheaper so that you can realistically cast them without the engine much of the time.

At least in Legacy we have a MUCH deeper card pool to try to fight specific strategies - I was discussing how sweet Wall of Razors would be in Modern last night... :cool:

[bruizar]

I was discussing how sweet Wall of Razors would be in Modern last night... :cool:

cutting up space aliens with razorblades is an epic flavor win, but warping wail, dismember and spatial contortion answer it. I'm thinking Shield Sphere in the mirror! (also gets erased easily but comes down sooner to prevent more damage)

[phonics]

The difference between modern and legacy is that legacy is balanced because the overpowered cards keep each other in check. In modern they ban whatever is overpowered which makes it much harder to react to new archetypes like eldrazi.

[Technics]

I agree with what you're saying. On the other hand it might just mean that we could lose Storm but gain some other (at the moment still unknown) deck in return. It'll probably become one big circlejerk. Storm might get pushed out by Eldrazi, the next thing comes along and kills off Eldrazi and that thing in turn folds to the resurgence of Storm and so on and so on.

Also, isn't it the nature of Legacy that some decks eventually go the way of the dodo? It sucks for those piloting the deck in question, absolutely, but that's just the nature of the game. Cardboard Darwinism.

I'm sorry. I thought we banned Survival of the Fittest in Legacy? Only blue decks are allowed to be good.

[Echelon]

I'm sorry. I thought we banned Survival of the Fittest in Legacy? Only blue decks are allowed to be good.

I lol'd!

[non-inflammable]

Blue mages crying? boo-fucking-hoo maybe now the cantrip cartel will be only 50% of the meta and you may have an actually sorta unfavorable MU. Seriously after 700 pages of B&R restricted list telling people not to cry over brainstorm being everywhere, i expected something better.

When I would talk to "most" players about the problem of BS I would get the usual retort of something like:
"They should just print something as good for the other colors in magic."

Well, the other colors didn't get anything to combat BS but I too, welcome the eldrazi overlords...

[thefringthing]

On Chalice, Blood Moon, and Counterbalance: Aaron Forsythe was gunslinging at GP Detroit on the weekend, and soliciting opinions about Modern. I talked to him about Legacy a bit instead, and mentioned that I thought things that stop you from doing anything are very good in Legacy right now, which is kind of a bummer.

[Dice_Box]

On Chalice, Blood Moon, and Counterbalance: Aaron Forsythe was gunslinging at GP Detroit on the weekend, and soliciting opinions about Modern. I talked to him about Legacy a bit instead, and mentioned that I thought things that stop you from doing anything are very good in Legacy right now, which is kind of a bummer.
Not really. What they stop you doing is filling your deck full of Duals and cantrips. I am not one to issue fault with that situation.

[GundamGuy]

Not really. What they stop you doing is filling your deck full of Duals and cantrips. I am not one to issue fault with that situation.

Got to love the mentality that thinks there should be no counter to really greedy manabases, and builds.

[MaximumC]

Got to love the mentality that thinks there should be no counter to really greedy manabases, and builds.

I'm really sad Wizards made a decision decision to move away from land destruction, color-hate, and nonbasic hate. They did so in the name of these effects being "unfun," but they were critical to balancing the way dual lands were originally. If we still had access to basic-type hosers like Carpet of Flowers or even stuff like Conversion, it would be far riskier to run greedy manabases and they could print improved versions of the Revised Duals without too much problem. For example, imagine how much of a non-issue dual lands would be if these kind of cards existed:

Landhater 1W
First Strike
Non-basic lands do not untap during their controller's untap step.
2/2

Basic Enforcer G
Non-basic lands enter the battlefield tapped unless their controller pays 3 life.
2/1

Stuff like that. Wizards has been very good about stapling spell effects to hatebears, but has not yet really done so for non-basic hate. I mean, sure, you have Magus of the Moon and that one Cinder elemental from Lorywn, but they cost 3 mana. Gaddok Teeg, Thalia, and other hatebears get slammed on turns 1 or 2 to start doing their job right away.

[jrsthethird]

and that one Cinder elemental from Lorywn, but they cost 3 mana.

Cinder Elemental? You might be thinking of Anathemancer.

[Octopusman]

Cinder Elemental? You might be thinking of Anathemancer.

Fulminator Mage

[force_of_phil]

Ravenous Baboons. How could you forget the baboons?

[non-inflammable]

Primal Order get any love?

Homelands and 5th edition are easy to forget.

[tescrin]

Honestly I'm brewing with Suppression Field. It's delicate to actually build around (i'm in 3 colors :O) but it's pretty nifty. Unfortunately in 6 games last night and 3 copies in a blue deck with the cantrip cartel, I saw it only twice and only after the game had basically been decided one way or the other. (One was me beating up RUG with an Aven Mindcensor, the other was a stalemate gigantic field of D&T vs. TNNs trying to equip SoFaI and had mangara on the field.)

[Crimhead]

On Chalice, Blood Moon, and Counterbalance: Aaron Forsythe was gunslinging at GP Detroit on the weekend, and soliciting opinions about Modern. I talked to him about Legacy a bit instead, and mentioned that I thought things that stop you from doing anything are very good in Legacy right now, which is kind of a bummer.Nothing in Legacy stops players from"doing anything". There are decks/strategies which endeavour to slow the game down and/or limit the opponents actions, but that's not at all the same!

What's "kind of a bummer" is that some players seem to want all the format's control decks to focus entirely on edging the opponents and dominating the combat step. If you don't like prison decks or soft-locks, this is the wrong format for you! Strong prison decks have always been a part of Legacy; except perhaps briefly during the Maverick/Thresh/Stoneblade era, which seems to have spoiled a large number of players. I'm assuming you didn't play much when decks like Pox, Enchantress, and Geddon Stax were tier one?

[slave]

...Blue is pushed back and fringe decks day 2'd in philly ..... Eldrazi is just too strong of an archetype with the effect that the entire meta-game warps around them. The diversity of the field may suffer from this and we may end up in a similar triangle like vintage:
- Dredge
- Eldrazi
- Rest
I disagree. Dredge has a good game1, but the hate is far too effective to say that Dredge is a top-tier choice.
(I'm a long time Dredge player)


Nothing in Legacy stops players from"doing anything". There are decks/strategies which endeavour to slow the game down and/or limit the opponents actions, but that's not at all the same!
I agree with this statement.

I'm primarily a Storm & Dredge player, but I play a couple aggro/midrange decks on occasions too.
There's plenty of occasions where my deck may be seriously hurt by opponent strategy, but it doesn't necessarily mean that deck is utterly unfair and a ban must be incoming.
E.g. Rest in peace and Grafdigger's Cage relative to Dredge. If Dredge is still getting played despite such crushingly effective, cheaply costed hate, I seriously don't see why TKS & Chalice should suddenly feel like a back-breaker.
If Thought-Knot Seer, Chalice of the Void are making your deck fold, perhaps you should play a different deck for a while?
Or maybe you should just pack in lots of Wastelands etc. and or hate that gets around the Chalice like Ingot Chewer?

Anyway;
My point is that I don't believe the Eldrazi deck of late is anything overly brutal compared to any of the previous control decks that have done well.
If Wizards are genuinely trying to print cards to try and change the meta in Legacy, GOOD! I'd like to see things move along and get shaken up a bit.
Whether that changes people from Legacy to Modern is a question that's impossible to deduce, but new cards that are relevant to legacy is good news for me.

[Crimhead]

If Wizards are genuinely trying to print cards to try and change the meta in Legacy, GOOD! I'd like to see things move along and get shaken up a bit.Unlikely. WotC enhanced Legacy by total fluke in a blunder that screwed Modern and Standard. The irony is delicious!


Whether that changes people from Legacy to Modern is a question that's impossible to deduce, but new cards that are relevant to legacy is good news for me.I don't think we need worry about Eldrazi Shops driving people out of Legacy into Modern! Brace for a huge invasion of Modern refugees.

[Stan]

Let's hope they nuke that deck from orbit for modern, banning its entire manabase. Then we might see some refugees from that format, looking to keep their new pet alive.

[jrsthethird]

Let's hope they nuke that deck from orbit for modern, banning its entire manabase. Then we might see some refugees from that format, looking to keep their new pet alive.

Yeah, this is more likely. Tombs are cheap, and Crystal Vein is a suitable substitute for Cities.

[GundamGuy]

Yeah, this is more likely. Tombs are cheap, and Crystal Vein is a suitable substitute for Cities.

Not really though....

[thefringthing]

Nothing in Legacy stops players from "doing anything". There are decks/strategies which endeavour to slow the game down and/or limit the opponents actions, but that's not at all the same!Sure, there's always something you could be doing. The question is whether that something is good enough to win you a reasonable percentage of matches. I mean, why not unban Tinker? Envelop is legal. Everything has answers! You have to compare the quality of the threat with the quality of the answer, in the context of the whole metagame. You can play four maindeck Ingot Chewers, but you'll never win a GP with Four Ingot Chewers Dot Deck.

[bruizar]

I disagree. Dredge has a good game1, but the hate is far too effective to say that Dredge is a top-tier choice.
(I'm a long time Dredge player)



Dredge has a great game 2 if no one sideboards properly! If there are only 15 sideboard slots and you need to dedicate a large amount of sideboard slots to only 3 matchups, then you simply don't have enough slots left to board against dredge. If you then board against dredge too much, you start losing against the other decks!

We've seen this in vintage where you dedicate 10+ sideboard slots to dredge and shop hate OR you are gonna scrub out. A format can only tolerate so many decks that require you to commit sideboard hate excessively.

[Crimhead]

Sure, there's always something you could be doing. The question is whether that something is good enough to win you a reasonable percentage of matches.Miracles, Eldrazi, Lands, and Painter all have decks which can win a favourable percentage of matches against them, so I don't know wtf you're talking about.

Obviously no deck can have reasonable MUs against every single deck! Not in a format with such a wide range of strategies and "angles" as Legacy. You wanna see fair decks butting heads all day?

[jrsthethird]

Not really though....

Good enough to drop $50 to take your banned Modern deck to a local and expect to perform reasonably well. Don't come to Columbus with Veins, but you can get used to the format while saving for Cities.

[keys]

Good enough to drop $50 to take your banned Modern deck to a local and expect to perform reasonably well. Don't come to Columbus with Veins, but you can get used to the format while saving for Cities.

I don't believe they will completely gut the deck in modern. My guess is they will ban eye and SSG. It will still be top tier with Temples as they only accel but not broken.

[Crimhead]

I don't believe they will completely gut the deck in modern. My guess is they will ban eye and SSG. It will still be top tier with Temples as they only accel but not broken.Even if they ban nothing, there is no shortagebof Modern players who want in on Legacy but lack a competitive deck. This is exasperated by the hype from EMA.