Horror Tribal

[guillemnicolau]

http://i.imgur.com/4rJIhYK.png

So I'm trying to find the best deck to use Thing in the Ice, in a tempo built.
As you can see, all creatures in the deck are horrors, which not only makes Cavern of Souls a great card to play here, but also exploits the Awoken Horror hability. The idea of playing Hunted Horror was from Noctalor, and it really seems good. Centaur creatures will be blocked by Thing in the Ice and Spellskite, and will fly away when Awoken Horror arrives.
I've tried to play as many sorceries and instants to be able to flip The Thing fast. Also, the instants (like Disfigure and Go for the throat) will enable some cool combat tricks, and flipping The Thing in response to some circumstancial removal, like Dismember.

I think it deserves some testing :)

[MGB]

Hunted Horror is actively bad even if you use 2-card-combos to eliminate its drawback. You're better off just slotting Thing in the Ice into an existing U/x tempo shell, tbh.

[CabalTherapy]

Hunted Horror is actively bad even if you use 2-card-combos to eliminate its drawback. You're better off just slotting Thing in the Ice into an existing U/x tempo shell, tbh.

Is TITI the new Dreadnought?

[Echelon]

Is TITI the new Dreadnought?

Not really, it's more like the new toy in anyDelver.dec.

[MGB]

I'd liken it more to "the new, better Delver of Secrets".

The card is kind of borderline broken. It's going to make U/x Delver strategies de facto Tier 0.

[guillemnicolau]

Hunted Horror is actively bad even if you use 2-card-combos to eliminate its drawback. You're better off just slotting Thing in the Ice into an existing U/x tempo shell, tbh.

I don't see it working in any U/x tempo shell, it bounces your goyfs, delvers, shamans... and then they have a decay and what have you won? Those decks don't need this creature.

And what 2-card-combos are you talking about?

[Cire]

If anything instead of tribal horror run UB for Dark depths and Hex Mage. :cool:

[guillemnicolau]

If anything instead of tribal horror run UB for Dark depths and Hex Mage. :cool:

Some people has already told me that, but I don't think it needs it, Hex Mage is really good with Dark Depths, but with Thing in the Ice it's just a 2/1 for BB that avoids playing 3 instants or sorceries. Is it really worth it? For UU you can play 2 cantrips, which will not flip The Thing (yet) but it will sculpt your hand (to search for counters, for specific cards in your sideboard,...), or a cantrip and a removal, or a cantrip and a counterspell, etc.

[MaximumC]

Some people has already told me that, but I don't think it needs it, Hex Mage is really good with Dark Depths, but with Thing in the Ice it's just a 2/1 for BB that avoids playing 3 instants or sorceries. Is it really worth it? For UU you can play 2 cantrips, which will not flip The Thing (yet) but it will sculpt your hand (to search for counters, for specific cards in your sideboard,...), or a cantrip and a removal, or a cantrip and a counterspell, etc.

This deck is a bad idea.

Look, this is like when Goyf was spoiled and people thought it slotted into a Madness deck or dredge deck or something. TITI does not need anything else to be good. TITI is good if you are casting spells. There's no reason to warp your deck around TITIs.

[guillemnicolau]

This deck is a bad idea.

Look, this is like when Goyf was spoiled and people thought it slotted into a Madness deck or dredge deck or something. TITI does not need anything else to be good. TITI is good if you are casting spells. There's no reason to warp your deck around TITIs.

Have you read the list? The only thing that change is the creature base and the cavern of souls. The chosen spells are mainly to the ones played in any tempo deck (a part from not of this world, which can be changed for misdirection or divert).
I like critics, but this is just a random opinion without any basis.

[Cire]

Have you read the list? The only thing that change is the creature base and the cavern of souls. The chosen spells are mainly to the ones played in any tempo deck (a part from not of this world, which can be changed for misdirection or divert).
I like critics, but this is just a random opinion without any basis.

but your creature base is warped. Why Spellskite in legacy? Seems like a waste just to protect TITI. In legacy the creatures need to impact the game by themselves not protect other cards. Why hunted horror which is only good if you get TITI? Why Not of this world - doesn't seem enough to justify running it just to protect TITI and Hunted Horror. The deck seems built around getting TITI out - that's putting too many cards into one basket.

[guillemnicolau]

but your creature base is warped. Why Spellskite in legacy? Seems like a waste just to protect TITI. In legacy the creatures need to impact the game by themselves not protect other cards. Why hunted horror which is only good if you get TITI? Why Not of this world - doesn't seem enough to justify running it just to protect TITI and Hunted Horror. The deck seems built around getting TITI out - that's putting too many cards into one basket.

Thanks for a constructive critic :)
I know that the creature base is warped, that's why it's a tribal horror xD Having this creature base has a reason, making all your creatures uncounterable, and being able to bounce all creatures from your opponent while attacking with some big creatures seems worth a try. It's not a tier1 (yet :cool: ) but I'm sure it's a cool deck to play.

[Ricardio]

I think a stiflenaught/depth deck is in order. The idea is there and the new card helps but hunted might not be where you wanna be.

Nice original idea. It is very frustrating how many negative nancy, nay-sayer have crawled out of their caves to bash your idea. Keep working on it and show us your findings.

Legacy needs innovation. H8rs need not apply.

[Sarda'z]

Revoker could also help ;)

[Ricardio]

add drs.

maybe thoughtseize or IoK to grab decays.

Daze seems ambitious.

Familiar's Ruse to save creatures? add Snap for value ruses

[LMental]

The obvious core of a TITI deck should be:

4 Thing in the Ice
3-4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe


From there it becomes less clear.

Do you play 4 Daze? Maybe.
Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, or Inquisition of Kozilek? They play nice with Snapcaster.
Jace? He's expensive, so isn't strong with TITI - but is strong in general, so probably 1-2 is right.
DRS? If we're in black, it could be a strong option.
Dark Confidant? Mana costs are already low. But then again, between TITI, Snapcaster and Confidant, we have a lot of 2 drops.
Swords to Plowshares? Again, strong with Snapcaster.
If we're in white, Stoneforge Mystic? Also strong with TITI, since bouncing gives multiple activations. Also clogs the 2 drop curve.
If we play DRS, do we splash green for Abrupt Decay?
If we stay mostly blue, what about Vendillion Clique? Getting multiple activations sounds nice.

These are just some of my thoughts about TITI... and I haven't thought about it long.

I'd want to test something like:

4 Thing in the Ice
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Forked Bolt
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

That's like, TITI does Canadian Delver. But perhaps it doesn't offer significant advantages over traditional RUG Delver (aside from being 2 colors and being able to play a more reactive game with Snapcaster).

I'm excited to explore directions with this.

A sample Esper list might be:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thing in the Ice
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Cabal Therapy

8 Fetch
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland


Think of the possibilities!

[Echelon]

Oh, the horror of an opponent that just sits around playing with his titties...

[Ricardio]

Oh, the horror of an opponent that just sits around playing with his titties...

haha 10/10. Good show, old sport!

[rufus]

The obvious core of a TITI deck should be:

4 Thing in the Ice
3-4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe


From there it becomes less clear.

Do you play 4 Daze? Maybe.

...

Think of the possibilities!

TITI could work well in an "infect" deck.


Thing in the Ice
Kiln Fiend
Immolating Souleater

Berserk
Tainted Strike
Assault Strobe

[klaus]

some food for thought off the top of my head:

4 TITI
3 SCM
4 Delver
3 YP ----------------- YP might appear anti-synergistic, but it's the perfect plan B and fits the shell like a butt plug.

4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Pierce

4 BS
3 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Predict

4 Bolt
2 Lava Dart -------> thoughts? on paper it looks golden.

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Volc
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Wasteland

Edit: decks built around this card would deserve their very own thread.
imo: tribal horror XYZ does not make for a platform to brainstorm different approaches.

[Cire]

2 Lava Dart -------> thoughts? on paper it looks golden.
.

I actually really like the idea of TITI turn 2, turn 3 - quiet speculation - get 3 lava darts, sac 3 mountains, deal 3 damage to opponent, flip TITI, evacuate, attack for 7. Almost a 2 card combo for 10 damage plus evacuation for 2UU over 2 turns and 3 mountain sacrifices.

[Ricardio]

some food for thought off the top of my head:

4 TITI
3 SCM
4 Delver
3 YP ----------------- YP might appear anti-synergistic, but it's the perfect plan B and fits the shell like a butt plug.

4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Pierce

4 BS
3 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Predict

4 Bolt
2 Lava Dart -------> thoughts? on paper it looks golden.

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Volc
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Wasteland

Edit: decks built around this card would deserve their very own thread.
imo: tribal horror XYZ does not make for a platform to brainstorm different approaches.

I don't like daze in this deck. I feel that its fits a bug shell best. decay, misdirection, drs, cabal therapy, lotv, etc.
BUG Stiflenaught in a way.

EDIT: LAVA DART requires a mountain to be sac'd. I don't think destroying three lands for a 7/8 is very good.

[Cire]

Building off Quiet Speculation: We could include the following combo with Spellweaver Helix + QS into 2 Cabal therapy/Lava dart + Army of the Damned. YP also works well with Cabal Therapy - and YP into turn 2 - QS for 3 cabal therapy seems brutal

So:

4 TITI
4 YP

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 FoW
4 Spellweaver Helix
4 Quiet Speculation
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lava Dart
2 Army of the Damned

18 Lands.

[Ricardio]

Building off Quiet Speculation: We could include the following combo with Spellweaver Helix + QS into 2 Cabal therapy/Lava dart + Army of the Damned. YP also works well with Cabal Therapy - and YP into turn 2 - QS for 3 cabal therapy seems brutal

So:

4 TITI
4 YP

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 FoW
4 Spellweaver Helix
4 Quiet Speculation
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lava Dart
2 Army of the Damned

18 Lands.

HORY SHIET that is deep. Oh captain, my captain. BRB, diving suit.

[Fox]

A lot of this will be re-hash from the stiflenought (dreadstill - enter the fist) thread's most recent entries, but here's what you need to know about TITI and some thoughts on @guillemnicolau's initial list:
-most people theory-brewing with this card throw it with creature sets that are all terrible if JTMS bounces them (TITI, dreadnought, tombstalker, delver). Additionally these decks lack ways to deal with chalice. So here we have two large problems that operate with the same mechanic: counters on a permanent - so now we're talking about a deck that wants Hex Parasite and/or Vampire Hexmage. Why are we still choosing TITI over Dark Depths...not really sure, but let's continue knowing that the important thing is that we have cards we want to scrape counters off of at an accelerated rate.
-TITI, while good, probably doesn't win games by itself. It is also unlikely that all the creatures you bounced have no ETB trigger value that you just re-upped. As @Yan points out in the dreadstill thread, flipping TITI into resolving Standstill is potentially a strong combo. While strong, it's a fairly all-in play that take a few turns of setup, and you kind of need your deck to have a follow-up plan when they immediately crack standstill. TITI isn't a card you get to ride to victory, but it's probably good for at least 1 hit.
-if you need your wincon to stay on the board through TITI's on-board Evacuation-effect, you need a better wincon. Hunted Horror are coming out, and this isn't a horror tribal deck - we're on the dreadnought and/or depths plan, with TITI. Spellskite are gone as well, and with them the cavern of souls.
-the curve just got lower so we're dropping to a 4x wasteland list, 7x fetch, 3 seas, 2-3 basics, and 1-2 flex slots.
-removal is coming out of the maindeck, because it's terrible. There is built-in card disadvantage in a deck like this so you don't have the luxury of running any removal spell unless its primary use is: to kill your own guys for some degenerate combo, it burns an opponents face off, it has a counterspell mode (~Dimir Charm), or it draws a card (~Slice and Dice).
-Not of this World is a great 1x, but the other copy should be switched to a Torpor Orb
-in decks like these, Spell Pierce is often just a worse Stubborn Denial. That said, I like the three pierce slots becoming a mixture of Misdirection, Divert, Daze, or Stubborn. The deck probably want to be between 9 and 11 counterspells.
-you'll probably need to cut down to 2-3 ponders, or eschew them in favor of instants.
-consider using DRS or Delver as 1-drops.
-don't play stifle without a plan to recast it (flip-jace > snapcaster and 1-mana stone rain into surprise dreadnought)
-Illusionary Mask is hilarious with TITI. Also split second spells that can protect the TITI's flip is always fun -and yes, we're attacking through defender text, with a TITI that naturally has no counters on it.

The slots start becoming an issue, but there might be room for 2x crop rot and 1x dark depths off of a 1x trop; otherwise you're talking about a dreadnought deck - and if this is a path you want to go down, it's very important to recognize the significance of a TITI with only 2 ice counters remaining. One needs to stop reading what cards like TITI do, and understand what they mean. You won't ever have a board which needs nor wants to be resistant to being bounced, you're leveraging TITI's bounce to punish any attempt at removal/disruption of a primary threat [dreadnought] with a fizzle and a 7/8 barreling down at you.

While TITI shenanigans are neat, I don't think it's fast enough for legacy. As a 1-2x in a fast deck, sure. While I get that the idea is to kill the tokens the fairly-played Hunted Horror created with TITI's bounce, you're asking for a little too much black out of a mana base that wants to be blue, and needs to be immune to wasteland early on.

[LMental]

TITI could work well in an "infect" deck.


Thing in the Ice
Kiln Fiend
Immolating Souleater

Berserk
Tainted Strike
Assault Strobe


Very true. Perhaps this is the kind of thing that would be stronger in Modern, since a (mediocre) deck along those lines already exists in that format?

The problem is, of course, that if you flip TITI while swinging with Kiln Fiend / Swiftspear / Souleater, it's not so great.

I really do prefer this in a control / tempo build with Snapcaster and Clique. Perhaps Unearth could make an appearance. And Spellskite, though maybe only in the board.

I have yet to do any testing, though.