[DUMB IDEA] Should discard be instant more often?

[Gheizen64]

One of the things we've been used to since magic was born is the fact that discard spells, with some extremely rare exceptions, are sorceries.

This is because WotC believe that discarding thing in the draw phase is a feelbad moment. The problem with this view is that topdecking a discard spell is a way worse feelsbad moment to me, because it's actually worse than just topdecking a land. It's essentially skipping your draw step.

But this is only true only if all discard have to be sorcery. Were some discard printed at instant speed, topdecking discard spells wouldn't feel as bad as essentially skipping your draw step for no reason, and would be a more playable mechanic just because of that. It would still be a worse topdeck that a counterspell for example because of the chance of you whiffing on a land draw of your opponent, but it'd be way less shitty as a disruption mechanic than it currently is, which is essentially play it early or it's mostly useless.

Of course, straight current-level discard at instant speed would probably be too good, but something like a duress that cost 2 life too could be printed at instant. If counterspell at UU can deny a card AND gain you tempo, i don't see why an instant Distress is unacceptable. Sure, counterspells are proactive while discard is reactive, meaning you want to keep the mana open, but in my opinion this should balanced by the fact that counterspells gain you tempo where discard doesn't.

Ah, and obviously instant speed playable discard already exist but it's blue zzzz

I thought about this mostly because i realized that an instant speed Unmask would actually make black a good color against stupid combo decks trying to go off T0 that you sometimes encounter without forcing you to go blue or accept those random losses, while still being distinctly different and worse than FoW as a card.

[Julian23]

Sure, counterspells are proactive while discard is reactive, meaning you want to keep the mana open, but in my opinion this should balanced by the fact that counterspells gain you tempo where discard doesn't.

That part had me really confused. Most of the time, both Discard and Counterspells will lose tempo for you. There are exceptions with free counterspells like Force of Will and Daze, but they come at a hefty risk/reward ratio. Straight up discard on the other hand, especially pinpoint discard like Thoughtseize, can also generate tempo in certain situations where you take apart an otherwise great draw, but I agree that their current design offers less options to generate tempo.


What terrifies me about playable instant speed discard is how bad sorceries would become.

[Gheizen64]

That part had me really confused. Most of the time, both Discard and Counterspells will lose tempo for you. There are exceptions with free counterspells like Force of Will and Daze, but they come at a hefty risk/reward ratio. Straight up discard on the other hand, especially pinpoint discard like Thoughtseize, can also generate tempo in certain situations where you take apart an otherwise great draw, but I agree that their current design offers less options to generate tempo.


What terrifies me about playable instant speed discard is how bad sorceries would become.

The idea is that you usually gain tempo with counterspells because you use less mana than your opponent, see dazes, pierces, snare, fow etc... even something like counterspell gain you tempo as long as you counter something that cost 3 or more. And even in slower formats, you use counterspells to counter bombs mostly which are higher in cmc than the counterspell itself.

Discard on the other hand is totally anti-tempo especially on turn 1 when you essentially skip your first turn in exchange from exchanging one (average?) card from your hand with their best card, but more often than not they'll still have a play T1 against ur empty board.

And yeah a playable instant speed discard would make sorceries a bit worse. By how much though? Tutor-> spell can't be interacted because they don't have to pass priority after the spell resolve and they can just tutor and cast. In case of topdeck sorceries yeah they would be worse, but everything non-instant would be worse in that situation (or better, instant discard would be better against all-non instant cards, which is sort of the point?) , not just sorcery spells.

[Fox]

Funeral Charm
Piracy Charm
Ask and ye shall receive. Should it be instant though, no. If you're playing discard you're not playing to win (exceptions to decks like Storm, BUG Delver, Elves, and TinFins); the net effect is to needlessly lengthen games.

[dsck]

Split second Thoughtseize would be more interesting imo.

[Julian23]

Split second discard is the area I actually want to see explored.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Not a fan instant-speed targeted discard honestly, for it not to be horribly oppressive, they'd have to make it super high costed, making it effectively unplayable in most formats. Supposing they do make a mana efficient one, it would have the immediate effect of making the accompanying standard environment awful (possibly as bad, if not worse, then theros-thoughtseize standard), and possibly spilling over into Modern/Legacy.

[sdematt]

I also wouldn't mind discard spells with a Scry attached as you cast it, since most of the time, the tempo loss can be brutal, especially if it gets countered.

[Freggle]

Well just as there is Counterbalance / Sensei's Divining Top there is also Words of Waste / Sensei's Divining Top today. ...just have to use the draw ability.

[Kagehisa]

Are you sure, guys ?

Venarian Glimmer is not even (good enough to be) played/known by Legacy players.

[Gheizen64]

Are you sure, guys ?

Venarian Glimmer is not even (good enough to be) played/known by Legacy players.

Oh wow, i was only half joking when i said that the only playable instant speed discard was actually blue and not black, but just not i discover that blue has an actual instant non-colorshifted discard spell. What's your problem with blue wotc?

[tescrin]

I think Funeral/Piracy is as close as you'll get for the most part. They're nigh-usable.
Esper Charm, Kolaghan's Command, and Mardu Charm do it as well; two of which are fringe-playable as well.

Interestingly, two of those are from fairly recent sets.


Funeral Charm
Piracy Charm
Ask and ye shall receive. Should it be instant though, no. If you're playing discard you're not playing to win (exceptions to decks like Storm, BUG Delver, Elves, and TinFins); the net effect is to needlessly lengthen games.

I mean I guess you're right. Shardless BUG and Grixis Delver/Control aren't T1 decks, nor did Junk Deathblade just take 2nd in a Legacy classic the other day, nor did *The Cure* just do well.

Definitely only garbage piles use Discard.

[Fox]

I mean I guess you're right. Shardless BUG and Grixis Delver/Control aren't T1 decks, nor did Junk Deathblade just take 2nd in a Legacy classic the other day, nor did *The Cure* just do well.
Definitely only garbage piles use Discard.
Rewarding people for playing unlinked value cards isn't really what eternal formats are about, but there are formats for that. Now if you want to give people an instant speed discard spell that's great - just make sure it says you lose after your fourth turn or two (of your) turns from now, whichever comes later. I don't think it's unreasonable to link a "play to win...or else" mentality with discard effects.

I'm not sure where you're getting that I'm saying shardless and grixis, and the other decks, are neither high tier nor successful. As far as Grixis goes it's a tempo deck that does try to win and it produces good magic players, but no one enjoys the 'skillful' combo of Gitaxian + Cabal. Shardless is a deck with an absurdly high power floor and a very low skill~win ceiling; pushing up that floor with instant speed discard doesn't create a better magic player (and it's not to say shardless players are bad at magic, simply that being a good player isn't going to go far if you're piloting this deck). Similarly, *The Cure* is a deck that does try to win and maybe deserves instant speed discard, but the collateral damage of giving Junk Deathblade even better discard isn't exactly healthy for the format.

It should also be said that people could make really unique decks that achieve their own instant speed discard with effects like Leyline of Anticipation, but there is an implied trade-off there where you have to have a competitive deck, through that handicap, to earn the privilege of that sort of novel disruption.

[jrsthethird]

Rewarding people for playing unlinked value cards isn't really what eternal formats are about, but there are formats for that. Now if you want to give people an instant speed discard spell that's great - just make sure it says you lose after your fourth turn or two (of your) turns from now, whichever comes later. I don't think it's unreasonable to link a "play to win...or else" mentality with discard effects

I'll just Stifle that trigger, thanks.

[Lemnear]

Split second discard is the area I actually want to see explored.

Its as overdue as split-second/uncounterable pyroblast to get around the established Brainstorm/FoW/Daze galore protecting opposing hands

[tescrin]

response.

My snipe at you was mostly your implying that decks that run discard are garbage-tier bollocks minus combo or BUG Delver; despite Grixis Delver and Shardless BUG both running maindeck discard and being easily Tier 1 and despite the recent top by Junk (a deck that relies on mainboard discard to get anywhere against combo.) I get that it's tempo loss, but when you have a list of exceptions that include current and previously (and presumably, in the future) common Tier 1 decks and the exceptions get up to 5-6 decks; it ceases to mean anything; especially when something like Junk just topped. To push this a bit further, I'll mention that it doesn't really matter that Pyro or Shardless seem easy to nail with their discard when your point is it's tempo loss, and it is *still* tempo loss in these decks when you use discard. Certainly Pyro generates the same number of tokens if you Bolt your opponent than if you Discard their w/e, and certainly Shardless could've cascaded into Goyf vs. Hymn; a relative Tempo loss by comparison.

I was mostly just giving you shit for overlooking current T1 decks in your "exceptions" disclaimer, but I mean; if we're honest you basically failed to say something interesting after your long list of disclaimers completely devalued your own point. If the tempo loss can be fine for control decks, midrange decks, combo decks, and even *tempo* decks; it would seem to be a good enough effect that you're incorrect. Certainly we could cite older decks that have fallen out for lack of relevance such as Jund or The Gate as previous powerhouses that employed discard as well were I not pretty content with my current number of examples.

To disclaim myself; this isn't to say that tempo loss isn't bad, or that discard effects are anywhere near counterspell effects (barring Vial/Cavern decks or the odd Xantid Swarm/Defense Grid), just to say that I found it humorous enough to point out your perceived cognitive dissonance. Were you and others to disagree on this point; that's fine. I'm occasionally just a tipsy or overly bored asshole who drinks-n-posts or uses this as a brain-relief from his job. I'm perfectly happy being incorrect if it turns out I learn something or if I and/or others can derive entertainment from it.

[Spam]

They have already made instant discard cards. They are called counterspells.

[Fox]

@tescrin
I have only implied that powering up discard is analogous to giving dedicated spawn campers more places to hide (if we use something like FPS games as the metaphor). There was no comment on the outcome of matches nor how winning the strategy is/what tier it is, just that it "needlessly lengthen[s] games." If you're going to use discard and win in a timely manner then, by all means, proceed. Rewarding decks with higher win-rates when they try to have the most un-linked "you can't win cards" combined with a genuine absence of intent to win, isn't exactly healthy for the format. I don't think it's a controversial sentiment to expect instant speed discard to require people to pay the Pox tax as it were, and go out of their way at all while deckbuilding to access it.

[phonics]

I just wish they would explore mechanics more instead of giving us kicker variants.

[Shaman]

I would rather throw in some quickens and call it a day.

[Crimhead]

Not a Pox fan, Fox?