Dredge

[LMental]

So, maybe no one on the Source cares about Modern but I still think you guys are good brewers and would like to get some feedback on an exciting deck I think is becoming possible in Modern. That's right: Legacy's favorite, Dredge. I'm starting a new thread for this archetype because the new version is fundamentally different from the old Dredgevine approach, in that it's much more all-in and therefore much more akin to the Legacy version of Dredge. We play at least 6 Dredgers and aim to be explosive on Turn 1 to 2. How?

Two new cards: Insolent Neonate and Prized Amalgam. With these, Dredge finally has more than just Faithless Looting as a Turn 1 discard outlet. Neonate also cements us in the colors BGR, when previously there had been some debate over whether UBG might be better (for Hedron Crab). Still, I like a tiny U splash in my list so that I can hardcast Amalgam against grave hate.

On to the list:

4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Vengevine

4 Insolent Neonate
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Faithless Looting

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2-4 Stinkweed Imp
0-3 Life from the Loam
0-3 Dakmor Salvage
0-2 Golgari Thug

0-1 Dregscape Zombie
0-2 Rotting Rats
0-2 Sinister Concoction
0-2 Lava Axe
0-1 Darkblast

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
1 Stomping Ground
1 Polluted Delta

The exact numbers of lands is up for debate, as well. I've alternated between playing the 21st land in Dakmor Salvage or a 2nd Stomping Ground. Getting manascrewed or colorscrewed stinks, but occasionally being able to dredge Salvage on T2 and get some Ghasts into play is lifesaving.

As you can see, the core of the deck is fairly established. I'm just still quibbling with the support cards. And as you can also see, there is a lot of flexibility in the 6 open slots we have.

Life from the Loam: fixes mana, recurs Bloodghast and is an additional, not-half-bad dredger.
Dakmor Salvage: doesn't fix mana well, is an awful land, a shitty dredger, but does come down faster than Loam sometimes.
Stinkweed Imp: running Imp 3-4 is a decision I'm usually happy with. Provides extra acceleration and can chump block Goyf in a pinch.
Golgari Thug: I stay away from Thug because I prefer the Imp, but perhaps in a lower-to-the-ground version Thug could shine. He's easier to hardcast, enabling faster Vengevines.
Dregscape Zombie: A cheap way to trigger Amalgam and Vengevine in the late game.
Rotting Rats: A slightly more expensive Dregscape Zombie that is a better card on its own, and can occasionally serve as Lotleth Troll 5-6.
Sinister Concoction: Strong against Scavenging Ooze, which is probably public enemy number 1. If not in the maindeck, then in the sideboard for sure. It also is a discard outlet that can be activated on your upkeep to get you dredging on T2.
Lava Axe: Another answer to ScOoze that is cheaper than Concoction. Unfortunately, both Concoction and Axe suffer from the problem of doing nothing if your opponent hasn't cast a creature.
Darkblast: Probably an SB option, but a strong card that suffers from the same problem as Axe and Concoction. One to consider for sure.
As you can see, this deck is pretty customizable for your meta.

Let's move on to the sideboard:

Nature's Claim: Necessary to deal with Leyline of the Void.
Thoughtseize: Without access to Cabal Therapy, this is a strong tool to fight Scooze and other grave hate, especially when we're on the play.
Inquisition of Kozilek: It might be better than Thoughtseize in a burn-heavy meta.
Ancient Grudge: Strong against Affinity, Tron, and random grave hate everywhere.
Darkblast: Good against Affinity, Elves, and even Infect and Chord, and it also furthers our game plan.
Sinister Concoction: Answer Scooze and is a safer bet against Infect for when Darkblast isn't enough to save you.
Gnaw to the Bone: Helpful against Burn, one of the decks that definitely can race us.
Here's my list, for starters:

4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Vengevine

4 Insolent Neonate
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Faithless Looting

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Life from the Loam
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Dregscape Zombie

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
1 Stomping Ground
1 Polluted Delta

SB
4 Nature's Claim
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Darkblast
2 Sinister Concoction
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Ancient Grudge

I'd love to get your suggestions! With our collective brains, we could make Dredge a real competitor in Modern.

[Obould]

Hi,

Nice list. I have played with a dredge reanimator deck that has been really funny but still quite competitive.


4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Stomping Ground
2 City of Brass
3 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Swamp

3 Simian Spirit Guide

1 Raven's Crime
4 Faithless Looting
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Wild Guess

4 Life from the Loam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

2 Gnaw to the Bone
4 Vengeful Pharaoh

3 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
1 Blazing Archon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


Sideboard:

3 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Raven's Crime
3 Conflagrate
1 Grave Titan
1 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Terastodon

Basically you need just 2 lands with access to green mana (for Life from the Loam). Then just dredge into the combo. Simian Spirit Guide speeds things a lot. My manabase is now a little budgetish and should be upgraded with some more fetch lands.

EDIT: Lava Axe should be Lightning Axe in previous post?

[LMental]

Obould:

Yes, Lightning Axe, clearly.

More importantly, how would you change your list given these new cards? Do they make in impact for you? I like your list a lot, actually. The combo is clearly very powerful and works well with Loam. Have you seen Raphael Levy's Loam Pox list from a while back? It's similar to yours, opting for control instead of a combo.

I do think personally I'd avoid the combo approach to Dredge right now because these new cards seem, for me, so powerful that they warrant testing - and they seem to fit best in an aggro list. I also am afraid the Unburial Rites combo makes us even more vulnerable to grave hate than normal.

Edit: I also quite like that you can play Ray of Revelation in your list. I can't afford to splash white, I don't think, but it seems like a great card if I could.

[Obould]

Obould:

Yes, Lightning Axe, clearly.

More importantly, how would you change your list given these new cards? Do they make in impact for you? I like your list a lot, actually. The combo is clearly very powerful and works well with Loam. Have you seen Raphael Levy's Loam Pox list from a while back? It's similar to yours, opting for control instead of a combo.

I do think personally I'd avoid the combo approach to Dredge right now because these new cards seem, for me, so powerful that they warrant testing - and they seem to fit best in an aggro list. I also am afraid the Unburial Rites combo makes us even more vulnerable to grave hate than normal.

Edit: I also quite like that you can play Ray of Revelation in your list. I can't afford to splash white, I don't think, but it seems like a great card if I could.

The only card I would consider to my build is Insolent Neonate in place of Wild Guess. Wild guess' double red in mana cost is hard sometimes and that new card could help with that. It also feeds Gnaw to the Bone that is quite helpful in certain match ups.

I have seen a list about that Loam pox but it is, as you said, more control. I'm trying to speed to the combo.

At least for now there are quite little grave hate. The only one I have encountered for a long time is relic of progenitus that you can play around. I have also Grave Titan in sideboard that you can cast rather easily from hand. The raw card drawing power also helps to find answers to permanent type grave hate and when I have enough mana I can combo fast. So opponent's can't sit behind their single grave hate for too long. I have thought that you have to win game 1 and then somehow to win one of games 2/3, like any other combo decks and legacy dredge.

A funny thing to notice: I have played a couple of times against dredgevine and I have won all of them. Maybe that new Sinister Concoction helps to deal with cards like Blazing Archon.

[LMental]

The only card I would consider to my build is Insolent Neonate in place of Wild Guess. Wild guess' double red in mana cost is hard sometimes and that new card could help with that. It also feeds Gnaw to the Bone that is quite helpful in certain match ups.

I have seen a list about that Loam pox but it is, as you said, more control. I'm trying to speed to the combo.

At least for now there are quite little grave hate. The only one I have encountered for a long time is relic of progenitus that you can play around. I have also Grave Titan in sideboard that you can cast rather easily from hand. The raw card drawing power also helps to find answers to permanent type grave hate and when I have enough mana I can combo fast. So opponent's can't sit behind their single grave hate for too long. I have thought that you have to win game 1 and then somehow to win one of games 2/3, like any other combo decks and legacy dredge.

A funny thing to notice: I have played a couple of times against dredgevine and I have won all of them. Maybe that new Sinister Concoction helps to deal with cards like Blazing Archon.

Yes, fair enough. Perhaps Sinister Concoction is enough against Archon and Elesh Norn; I think it's mostly a toss-up, though. My list is winning on turn 4 pretty frequently, which is also when you'd combo. So it may just depend who goes first. Of course, you have Vengeful Pharoah as defense; however, I doubt it's actually strong enough to buy you more than one turn at most. Gnaw to the Bone also appears powerful in the pseudo "mirror".

Concotion suffers from the obvious problem of needing to be in your hand. But in every other way it's quite synergistic so I think it should probably be a 2-4 of in every SB, depending on how much Scavenging Ooze you expect.

[cartoonist]

I've been playing Dredgevine for a while, and I've found that recurring creatures are the best avenue to pursue. I've gradually taken out most of the dredgers and I'm still blazing through my library. My current build, if memory serves, is:

4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghasts
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Vengevine
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Hedron Crab
3 Saytr Wayfinder
1 Skaab Ruinator
2 Golgari Grave Troll

4 Grisley Salvage
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
The rest are fetch targets.

Hedron Crab is honestly my favorite card in the deck. It just does so much, and even when my opponents waste resources to kill it, it just buys me time to get my other threats down.

I've ordered my set of Amalgams. I'll take out the Ruinator, an Angler, cut a land, and cut a Decay for all four. Heck, I might just retool the whole thing. It's effective, but Amalgam is a card I've been waiting for. Bloodghast and Gravecrawler can trigger it, and I cannot avoid trying to maximize that effect.

[LMental]

Crab is good, but I'd argue Neonate is better. It allows even more explosive plays. Of course you need dredgers, and I understand why you're against them - they've been historically underwhelming in Modern. But with 16 recurring creatures (Crawler, Ghast, Amalgam, and Vine), Dredgers are finally in a good place in Modern. Plus, you can play LftL to ensure you still hit land drops.

Crab also has the downside of needing fetches to function. This can lead to awkward hands. Of course you're playing Salvager and Wayfinder so that should smooth things out. Overall it appears to me a slower, perhaps more consistent approach.

[cartoonist]

That's pretty much the idea. I might be a tad slower, (not much, really) but it rarely misses. I tend to flood the board with creatures that just don't go down.

[Rocco111]

Hey,

I haven't been playing Modern in a while but I tinkered with lists using/abusing Unburial Rites.
The list got its first inspiration from an article in SCG or CF (can't remember which one) and with the help of fellow members of a French forum we came to this:
1 Blood Crypt
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mana Confluence
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
2 Arid Mesa
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Gemstone Mine

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Borborygmos Enraged
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Thug
4 Llanowar Mentor
4 Stinkweed Imp

1 Conflagrate
1 Flame Jab
3 Raven's Crime
4 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
4 Lingering Souls
4 Unburial Rites

SB: 1 Conflagrate
SB: 1 Sun Titan
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
SB: 3 Suppression Field
SB: 3 Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge

I played it back in 2014 and stopped playing Modern because I got tired of Birthing Pod being omnipresent. Golgari Troll being still banned at that time, it was obviously slower than today's iteration -if the list was to be updated.

Recently, the card that picked my curiosity was The Gitrog Monster...
So with the previous list (see above) in mind, I drafted the one below:
4 Faithless Looting
4 Tormenting voice
4 Life from the Loam
4 Unburial Rites
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Drown in Filth
2 Conflagrate
2 Call the Bloodline
3 Edge of Autumn
4 Borborygmos Enraged
4 The Gitrog Monster
4 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mana Confluence
3 Gemstome Mine
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Swamp
4 Mountains
4 Forests
1 Plains

This is still pretty rough but the synergies at hand between Gitster and Borbo are incredible (allowing clean one shots if needed).
Interesting point is that each creature reanimated/cast separately still offer a lot of interesting and powerful plays.
Last but not least, we can go Token and eventually flip an Abbey as an alternative kill.

The mana base is still to be improved BUT playing cards like Edge of Autumn and/or Traverse the Ulvenwald imply to play with more basics than fetchs+shocklands
Call the Bloodline is the token enabler and provides us with an additional discard outlet. Spawning Lifelink token to chumpblock buys us some additional turns when in dire need but am not yet 100% sold on it to be honest. This could be replaced by 2 additional target to reanimate (Iona/Elesh Norn/Sire of Insanity/Grave Titan).
Traverse the Ulvenwald >really strong card in a deck that aims at flipping its library in its graveyard thus enabling the Delirium rather sooner than later.
Edge of Autumn > obvious synergies are obvious.

cheers

[hellhound]

Has anyone tried a manaless version?
I d like to test somethin like this
4 phantasmagorian
4 thug
4 GGT
4 STimp
2 dakmor salvage
2 nox revival
4 bloodghast
4 dryad arb
4 edge of autumn
4 prized am
4 death gate demon
4 call to netherworld
4 narco
4 bridges
4 probes
4 s wraith

Side
3 shoal B
3 faerie mac
2 fetch Gx
1 forest
2 natural state
4 nature claim

Inviato dal mio LG-D802 utilizzando Tapatalk

[No_Life_No_Future]

I have been brewing on MTGO with versions of dredge and I struggled to find a good version. The decks main problem is a lack of good dredge enablers which can lead you to mulling into oblivion. I struggled with different colors and manabases. I started jund, but I eventually found that Vengevine can be a bit win-more and difficult to activate. This lead me to cutting vengies. Which later lead me to cut Gravecrawler. I found Lotleth Troll to be great, but it was often hard to cast. The deck had much more busted starts when I added Narcomoeba. Then I found Stitchwing Skaab! This replaced Troll and made the deck more consistent. At this point I also realized Dakmor Salvage is really good because it turns on 1 landers, triggers Bloodghast, and adds more dredgers to the deck. The last most important change I made to my list was to go prismatic. The upside was huge. One land hands were better and the access to some sweet board cards really improved the deck.

I am currently 22-13 with this version of deck on MTGO league.

Modern Dredge:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Shivan Reef
3 Dakmor Salvage
1 Mountain

4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
3 Bloodghast
3 Stitchwing Skaab

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Insolent Neonate
4 Faithless Looting
4 Tome Scour

1 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Lightning Axe
2 Izzet Charm

Sideboard:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Memory's Journey
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast
2 Lightning Axe
2 Izzet Charm
2 Gnaw to the Bone

Cards Tested:
Vengevine
Gravecrawler
Lotleth Troll
Drowned Rusalka
Remand
Hedron Crab
Abrupt Decay
Murderous Cut

I am regularly racing Scavenging Ooze, Relic of Progenitus, and Rest in Peace. The deck is bonkers.

[LMental]

Cool list @No_Life_No_Future. I especially like the incorporation of Stitchwing Skaab and Narcomoeba over Vengevine and Gravecrawler; this is something I've been experimenting with myself. I also like the 2/2 Axe/Charm split; both seem powerful and useful here, and each offers its own strengths to your list. (Charm is particular is a nice hedge for problem MUs like Grishoalbrand.)

A few questions:

Why only 3 Bloodghasts? I'd be tempted to run a 4/2 Ghast/Skaab split, given that Ghast is much easier to land, great in multiples and Ghast + Amalgam is a really strong and frequent turn 2 play.

3 Memory's Journey in the board? Is this for Abzan Company and Grishoalbrand? What else?

Tome Scour does its job but is unimpressive, I've felt. Have you considered other options? What about playing a couple more dredgers?

Why did you test Remand?

How much damage are you dealing yourself with 4 Mana Confluence, 4 City of Brass and 4 Shivan Reef?

Otherwise we're on the same page. Nice work.

[No_Life_No_Future]

I have cut one Izzet Charm and moved the other to the board. I replaced them with more Lightning Axe which is a better card against everything but combo. I found that they can sometimes be to difficult to cast and are too slow as an enabler. I added another Ray of Revelation for more answers to Leyline of the Void.

It might have been wrong going -1 on Bloodghast. My reasoning was that I wanted to minimize the number of bad cards in my opener because I found I was having to mulligan too much due to lack of dredge enablers.

These are the flex slots which are not enablers:
1 Bloodghast
1 Gnaw to the Bone (pretty hard to cut...)
1 Stitchwing Skaab
1 Dakmore Salvage

I chose to keep Stitchwing over Bloodghast because ~40% of the time you will have an amalgam in your opening hand. If you didn't use Faithless Looting or have some additional discard effects it will remain stranded in your hand. There are 10 cards in the deck you can mill to activate amalgam turn 2. I think the third Dakmor Salvage is great because it lets you cast faithless looting or gnaw to the bone more reliably. As you can see the deck is pretty tight already. I guess you could also make an argument that Lightning Axe is too situational and a worse enabler and not worth cutting a bloodghast for an extra copy. It is good versus the majority of the format and the decks which it isn't good against we don't have a great chance of winning game 1 anyway.

The 1-3 Memory's journey come in against Goryo's Vengence Decks, Abzan Company, Lantern Control, Storm, Dredge, Gifts Ungiven and Snapcaster Mage. It is really hard to find cards from the main to cut for any sideboard cards. I usually trim 1 Stitchwing, Lightning Axe & Darkblast vs non creature combo.

I found Tome scour to be great. It is equivalent to dredging a Stinkweed Imp. It is the best turn 1 play you can make with the deck besides neonate dredge gravetroll which requires two cards. Neonate and Tome Scour both enable possible turn 1 Amalgam plays off Narcomeba which are the most busted starts. I have turn 3 killed this way many times. There are a lack of good enablers in modern at 1cc which is why I am currently playing 4 Lightning Axe. I tried Burning Inquiry but it is too unreliable as a discard outlet. It was definitely interesting and fun and lead to some really busted dredges which reminded me of breakthrough in legacy.

Other interesting one drops I haven't tested yet:
Thought scour
Llanowar Mentor

For dredgers I have:
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast

Darkblast can be a blowout. That's why I have a second one in the sideboard. Maybe, I could move it to the main deck to improve our dredging consistency. I don't think that adding Golgari Thug or Life from the Loam would be any good.

I tested remand and izzet charm together in a more instant speed controlling version. I thought it would provide tempo allowing you to set your opponent back a turn while dredging. It is still a very good card especially against combo, but it doesn't help put a dredger into the yard on turn 1 which is really what the deck needs.

I have actually found that the manabase is less painful than my previous Fetchland build. The dakmore, gemstone, shivan reef and mountain can all be painless. I think I take about 3-5 damage by turn 4.

[LMental]

Thanks, that all makes sense to me. Regarding the Ghast / Skaab split, I was testing yesterday with 4 Ghast / 3 Skaab and then 4/4/3 Looting/Neonate/Tome Scour. Those numbers get even better if you cut the Izzet Charms for two more Lightning Axe maindeck, giving you 15 turn 1 discard/dredge outlets, which I think is likely plenty. I rarely found myself missing the 4th Tome Scour, and I did find it massively helpful on occasion to dredge a Bloodghast on turn 2 and get back Amalgam as well.

Regarding your flex slots: would not cut the 3rd Salvage, it's quite important. Gnaw to the Bone is clutch MD, of course, but it honestly doesn't come up in a lot of MUs. Still it's a lot of upside for relatively little work, so perhaps it should stay in. The 3rd Skaab, as you mention, can be quite useful. I understand the arguments for the 4th Tome Scour, but again, I think the deck can function without it. Maybe I just mulligan more than you? Any hand that doesn't have a turn 1 dredge enabler I throw back obviously, so cutting 1 TS certainly, in some small way, would make me mulligan more - I'm sure someone somewhere can do math on this.

Anyways, I'll do some testing with 3 Ghasts - perhaps I'll be surprised.

Burning Inquiry is too unreliable in my testing too. Thought Scour doesn't do enough most of the time. Llanowar Mentor is really slow, though perhaps powerful. Same for Hedron Crab - but it requires running an inferior manabase too.

My testing definitely confirms your manabase is solid.

[GhandiGrizzly]

My current list is definitely more of a race/aggro list:

Creatures:

4 Insolent Neonate
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Instants/Sorceries:

4 Faithless Looting
3 Unburial Rites
3 Life From the Loam

Lands:

4 Mana Confluence
4 Dakmoor Salvage
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass

I was initially running Zombie Infestation and Llanowar Mentor as additional discard outlets but found the mentor to be terribly slow and Zombie Infestation to be a dead card in about half of my games; it's awesome having it on the draw but more often than not it's just getting thrown in the yard. Street Wraith has proven invaluable against Scooze and other hate, saving a Grave-Troll on plenty of occasions as well as giving me another opportunity to get more into the yard. Still testing with my local meta but so far it's been making everyone think twice about not showing up with graveyard hate in SB's.

[LMental]

Cool list. Are you finding it hard to get the mana for Unburial Rites on Turn 4? You're playing even fewer lands than the average list. However you do run 4 Salvage and 3 Loam. But those aren't exactly the fastest cards out there.

Or maybe the deck isn't trying to Unburial on Turn 4 but more like 5-6 as a plan B?

Skaab is good. Not sure if it's better than the Rites plan, but it certainly takes less investment. On the other hand Vengeful Pharoah is an awesome card in Modern and a lot of decks have trouble with it.

[GhandiGrizzly]

Cool list. Are you finding it hard to get the mana for Unburial Rites on Turn 4? You're playing even fewer lands than the average list. However you do run 4 Salvage and 3 Loam. But those aren't exactly the fastest cards out there.

Or maybe the deck isn't trying to Unburial on Turn 4 but more like 5-6 as a plan B?

Skaab is good. Not sure if it's better than the Rites plan, but it certainly takes less investment. On the other hand Vengeful Pharoah is an awesome card in Modern and a lot of decks have trouble with it.
Getting the mana for Unburial Rites by turn 4 is not too difficult; granted, reanimating a Craterhoof is one of the win-cons this list has gone plenty of games without it. A nuts draw is a red producing land/Neonate/dredger/Wraith/second land. This allows you to turbo dredge into your yard on your opponent's turn 1 mainphase looking for Narcs, Amalgams, and Bloodghasts. Most decks cannot keep up with 1+ Narc/Amalgam swinging in on turn 2 with Bloodghasts to back it up. Generally turn 3 is where I'm looking to restock with Loam for a land drop into turn 4 Rites for the big finish but by that point I have usually already been swinging in with some combination of Amalgam/Narc/Ghast for close to lethal

[GhandiGrizzly]

After some more testing I have been trying to figure out the right number of Phantasmagorians and possibly throwing in some Stitchwing Skaabs as discard outlets. Phantasmagorian definitely has his place in the list but I don't feel as though he deserves a four-of. Haven't played around with the Skaab yet but I've seen some very similar lists with them stuffed in and I like the idea of discard on a body. I'll be figuring out exactly how many is the right number and update

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

[Kathal]

Magus_of_the_Moon (https://www.twitch.tv/magus_of_the_moon) is currently crushing people with that dredge deck:

http://i.imgur.com/jx1Udiu.jpg

By far the best Dredge build I have seen in Modern so far.

You can watch his past streams, where he is playing with this deck.

Greetings,
Kathal

[LMental]

@Kathal

Yeah, Magus has been crushing for a while with various forms of dredge. The thing is, he changes his list so much that it's hard to know what's best. A few weeks back he was on 0 Bridge, 0 Inquiry, 4 Dangerous Wager, 4 Skaab. Clearly though he's a strong dredge player and is hopefully working towards an optimized list.

In other news, someone got 9th at MOCS with dredge. List was the Vengevine list with 2 Rotting Rats, 1 Lightning Axe and 1 Life from the Loam in the flex slots. No removal in the MD and SB except that singleton Lightning Axe! Very ballsy.

[Obould]

Hi,

I have modified my deck a little and it feels definitely better. Ghoulsteed and skaab has done some heavy lifting with amalgams. This is slower than bloodghast version, but I just love the combo aspect of this deck.


20
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Stomping Ground
2 City of Brass
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave

1 Raven's Crime
4 Faithless Looting
4 Insolent Neonate
2 Lightning Axe
2 Tormenting Voice

3 Life from the Loam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Stitchwing Skaab
2 Ghoulsteed

3 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


Sideboard:

3 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Raven's Crime
3 Conflagrate
1 Grave Titan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Ashen Rider
2 Terastodon

Gitaxian probes has been sometimes great but sometimes discard outlet or dredger would have been better so I might change it. Any suggestions?

Edit: Replaced 4 gitaxian probes for 2 lightning axes and 2 tormenting voices.

[No_Life_No_Future]

I have also changed my list a little. Yesterday, my brother piloted this list (-1 dakmor +1 mountain) to a first place finish in a ~40 person tournament and I 4-1ed a competitive modern league on MTGO. The biggest changes I have made are to cut Izzet Charm from the deck completely and the addition of Street Wraith to the main. Street Wraith enables more turn 1 Amalgams and significantly speeds up the deck. It is better than Gitaxian Probe because it can be used in response to a Narcomoeba trigger to dredge into Amalgam and it is a creature for Gnaw to the Bone. I moved another Darkblast to the main. It is extremely good against infect and elves and it is an extra dredger adding consistency to the deck. I have been testing a single Conflagrate. I am not sold on it. It fills the same roll as Darkblast and gives you some additional reach, but it competes with Stitchwing Skaab for cards to discard and an extra Stitchwing Skaab or Street Wraith might just be better.


Modern Dredge:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Shivan Reef
3 Dakmor Salvage

4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
2 Stitchwing Skaab

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Insolent Neonate
4 Faithless Looting
4 Tome Scour

2 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Conflagrate
3 Street Wraith


Sideboard:

3 Ancient Grudge
3 Memory's Journey
3 Ray of Revelation
4 Lightning Axe
2 Gnaw to the Bone

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'll test your most recent list No_life, I'm interested in Modern dredge now that Insolent Neonate is a thing. Just finished off the cards I need for it.

What do you sideboard Memory's Journey against? And what would you normally take out first if you were going to sideboard in a random card?

[No_Life_No_Future]

The cards I would consider cutting for sideboard cards are:
2 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
3 Streetwraith
1 Conflagrate
2 Stitchwing Skaab
1 Dakmor Salvage

The 1-3 Memory's journey come in against Goryo's Vengence Decks, Abzan Company, Lantern Control, Storm, Dredge, Gifts Ungiven and Snapcaster Mage. I keep in Street Wraith when I am trying to race them (Ex. Scapeshift, Boggles, Storm...), but I board them out when I have no shot at racing and need to play a more interactive game to win (Ex. Infect, Burn/Zoo...). Sometimes it is hard to know what form of graveyard hate your opponent will bring in. Most people don't play too many cages and often you can get enough creatures on the board to race a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze or Rest in Peace. As a general rule I would sideboard like this:

Burn/Zoo:
-3 Street Wraith
-2 Darkblast
-1 Conflagrate
+2 Gnaw to the Bone
+4 Lightning Axe

Affinity:
-3 Street Wraith
-2 Stitchwing Skaab
-1 Dakmor Sa
+3 Ancient Grudge
+4 Lightning Axe

Infect:
-3 Street Wraith
-1 Gnaw to the Bone
-2 Stitchwing
+4 Lightning Axe
+2 Ancient Grudge

Elves:
-3 Street Wraith
-1 Gnaw to the Bone
+4 Lightning Axe

Jund/Eldrazi:
-1 Gnaw to the Bone
-1 Street Wraith
-2 Darkblast
+4 Lightning Axe

Jeskai/UW control:
-1 Gnaw to the Bone
+1 Memory's Journey

Tron:
-2 Darkblast
-1 Gnaw to the Bone
+3 Ancient Grudge

Storm:
-2 Darkblast
-1 Gnaw to the Bone
-1 Stitchwing Skaab
+3 Ray of Revelation
+1 Memory's Journey

Abzan Company:
-3 Street Wraith
-1 Gnaw to the Bone
-1 Stitchwing Skaab
+4 Lightning Axe
+1 Memory's Journey

Scapeshift:
-2 Darkblast
+2 Gnaw to the Bone

Ad Nauseam:
-2 Darkblast
-1 Gnaw to the Bone
-2 Stitchwing Skaab
+2 Ancient Grudge
+3 Ray of Revelation

Lantern Control
-2 Darkblast
-1 Gnaw the the Bone
-1 Stitchwing Skaab
+3 Ancient Grudge
+1 Memory's Journey

Boggles:
-2 Darkblast
-2 Stitchwing Skaab
-1 Conlfagrate
+3 Ray of Revelation
+2 Gnaw to the Bone

Scapeshift/Valakut is probably the worst match-up I have encountered so far. They are usually faster than you and you have no way to interact with their strategy except to try and gain a bunch of life which usually isn't enough. I am glad you are picking up the deck. It is not easy to play and needs to mulligan its openers aggressively. The sequencing is very unforgiving, but there are many lines of play to choose and the deck really rewards tight play. Let me know what you think.

[dinosaurus]

Hi all,

My friend did well at GP Charlotte with the version we've been working on for a while:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpcha16/dredge-with-kenan-diab-at-grand-prix-charlotte-2016-05-22

There is a lot in common with No_Life_No_Future's list, the main difference is that we play bridges and rally, and burning inquiry instead of street wraith, and loam instead of extra shivan reef.

We found loam and bridges to be excellent all weekend. Burning inquiry is so efficient when it works, but I'd also like to test street wraith more.

I like where this is going, comments are more than welcome!

NB: the main change we do in the 75 from charlotte if we had to play tomorrow would be to cut Leylines in the SB for a couple of memory's journey, as in No_Life_No_Future's list.

[Echelon]

I was surprised not to see any Street Wraiths in that list, perhaps instead of the Tome Scours. Admittedly, I'm not a Modern player.

[dinosaurus]

Tome scour are really not sexy, but they decrease the chance that you mulligan to oblivion considerably... They require nothing but a land to get going, and that's very appealing, even though the card is not great in a vacuum. This version of the deck can't afford not to play it.

[Echelon]

You have only 13 lands in your deck that can cast it. You could also switch them for more dredgers so you can adopt the DDD-start to jump start the deck.

[Phoenix Ignition]

No_Life, thanks for all the info, I took it with me to Modern tonight. I played the exact 75 you listed except -4 Shivan Reef + 3 Steam Vents +1 Mountain (didn't have the reefs). I won 3-0 against Grixis, Jund, and Jeskai control. Here are some thoughts, but they're only thoughts and not real statements because I really have only played 3 matches with this deck ever, barely having goldfished it before the tournament.

Steam Vents seem fine, but probably just slightly worse than Shivan Reef. I doubt you'd run into that specific change affecting the outcome of a match without playing a thousand games, but I'll probably slowly pick up the Reefs whenever I see one (they only had 1 at the shop) so I can free up my Steam Vents for other decks. Basic Mountain gave me the dream scenario of reanimating 3 Bloodghasts against UWR control when they Path'ed an Amalgam to win game 3, so that is definitely staying in, even if it's more likely I'd have already dredged it than not. I was actually very surprised how often I used up my Gemstone Mines and just mana in general, usually dealing myself like 8 over the course of the game just from City of Brass/Mana Confluence. I wouldn't want less than 3 Dakmor Salvages, and might even want 4. I dredged it so often just to trigger Bloodghast + Prized Amalgam that 4 might be correct, though Life from the Loam would also definitely help there.

I really liked the list, but here are some other cards that stick out to me that people have mentioned in this thread:

Street Wraith: I drew this card a few times but wasn't ever that happy with it. I definitely got awkward hands that couldn't discard a dredger ever, so having it in that case is obviously not good, but even when I did have a dredger I'd have preferred this to be something else. I'm going to try out Burning Inquiry in it's position, as I love the potential Hymn to Tourach on the opponent's starter hand, especially after they've tried to mulligan into their sideboard. They're both only really good if you have a dredger in the yard, but this deck so badly needs a discard outlet turn 1 that I'd keep a hand with BI and a couple dredgers but not a hand of SW and a couple dredgers. Also, against decks with stuff like Cryptic Command, I really wouldn't mind having these in just to screw up their long term plans. If they're trying to go Cryptic -> Snapcaster ->Cryptic as their long term gameplans, this helps to at least throw a wrench at them and see how they respond.

Tome Scour: Way better than I expected. Game 3 against jeskai control I mulliganed to 6 and kept a hand that had Tome Scour and no discard outlet, along with a couple dredgers, lightning axe, and a couple lands. The 5th card milled was a Stinkweed Imp so I ended up being just fine. I can definitely see how this card looks like garbage but turns out to be that half-eaten day-old donut when you're starving. I'll keep it in for my more rigorous playtesting coming up, but it's possible a split of Tome Scour/ Burning Inquiry might end up being better.

Darkblast/Conflagrate/Gnaw to the bone: Never really needed any of these against the matchups I played. Conflagrate is a nice safety blanket feeling until you realize you only ever have like 2-3 cards late game (Stitchwing Skaab and all), but it's possible that 2-3 damage is all you really need to get through (I kinda doubt it though). Darkblast would have been great against the matchups I dodged, affinity and infect, and even a tiny amount of dredge is sometimes useful so they stay in. I'm curious whether Lightning Axe would just be overall better in this maindeck slot though. Gnaw would gain a surprising amount of life so that stays too.

Stitchwing Skaab: This card is actually just insanely good. End of your opponent's turn you discard 2 dredgers to get an instant speed uncounterable 3/1 flier that also triggers your Amalgams? 2 seemed pretty good, might end up wanting 3 though. I used this ability very often and wasn't disappointed to dredge it.

Greater Gargadon: Out of all the cards that other lists run and this doesn't, I might want this one. It's a late game guarantee while protecting your stuff from exile, but more importantly letting you retrigger dead Amalgams with Bloodghast Landfall by sac'ing the Bloodghast and landfalling. You could sacrifice all your Amalgams and Bloodghasts 2nd main phase and drop a land to get them all back again while removing like 4 counters from GG. Definitely going to try to fit these in, but it's possible they end up being lackluster without Bridge from Belows.

Bridge from Below: I'm sad it isn't in the list. There were so many times where my creatures got bolted and I wanted a 2/2. I dunno, it's definitely possible that the list is better without them, I mean, I did win all my matches, but it just feels wrong. Either way I'll attempt to get some in there and probably fail to improve the deck.

Vengevine/Gravecrawler: I agree on not playing them. They either win in a devastating fashion or stare at you and not help, but more often than not it isn't the former. I tried really hard to break them in a similar deck, and this one just doesn't want/need that.

Life from the Loam: I think I'm putting 1 of these maindeck. I'm not 100% sure where yet but the more I think about it the more it'd have helped much more than Dakmor. Dakmor doesn't give you mana immediately so if you're at 2 and need 3 mana to cast something I'd rather have Life. It'll end up saving you more life by reusing Gemstone Mines, and also allow you to actually cast Golgari-Grave Troll late game (I only got to 5 mana once). I might put it in over the third Dakmor. Added bonus is you can actually fill your hand to blast them with a big Conflagrate.

Sideboard Notes:
Grixis could be placed in the Eldrazi/Jund area as you basically just want Lava Axes against them.
Jeskai control you should take out 2 Darkblast for Lava Axes as they hit colonnades and Izzet Staticaster (which is kind of a blowout)

Fun tournament facts:

Every match went to game 3
I mulliganed to oblivion and lost 2 of the 9 games I played
Kalitas + Scooze aren't fast enough to stop Lightning Axe

[mistercakes]

been playing this list a bunch:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/421907#paper

i think it's a little tricky to pilot with only 17 lands, but other than that it's been overall very good. shriekhorn over tome scour for the better mana has helped with taking too much damage or running out of gemstone mine counters too soon.

[CaptainTwiddle]

Thoughts on Tome Scour vs Thought Scour? I see that most of the established lists are running Tome Scour. I understand that it's more powerful on turn 1-2, as it dumps a greater number of cards into the yard. However, Thought Scour seems like it has some added utility for other points in the game. The fact that it is an instant and makes you draw a card can help protect your dredge cards from graveyard removal (e.g. Scavenging Ooze activations, Surgical Extraction, etc.). Also, milling 2 then dredging a Stinkweed Imp or Golgari Grave-Troll puts more cards into the yard that Tome Scour would. Does Tome Scour win out simply because it's a better turn 1 play on average? While I think Thought Scour is fundamentally better, Tome Scour theoretically lets you end the game sooner.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Thoughts on Tome Scour vs Thought Scour? I see that most of the established lists are running Tome Scour. I understand that it's more powerful on turn 1-2, as it dumps a greater number of cards into the yard. However, Thought Scour seems like it has some added utility for other points in the game. The fact that it is an instant and makes you draw a card can help protect your dredge cards from graveyard removal (e.g. Scavenging Ooze activations, Surgical Extraction, etc.). Also, milling 2 then dredging a Stinkweed Imp or Golgari Grave-Troll puts more cards into the yard that Tome Scour would. Does Tome Scour win out simply because it's a better turn 1 play on average? While I think Thought Scour is fundamentally better, Tome Scour theoretically lets you end the game sooner.

Every card in the deck that doesn't have Dredge, Flashback, or the ability to do something when dredged needs to give you the ability to start your engines. You can't keep a hand that has a bunch of non-starters and a Thought Scour; that only gives you 2 chances to hit a dredger. Tome Scour gives you 5, which is generally enough to get you started. It's not great, it feels bad and looks worse on paper, but when you compare it to Thought Scour it isn't even that much worse than the dream Thought Scour (hitting a GGT, dredging 6 means you get 8 cards in your yard on turn 1 instead of 5), but when Thought Scour misses it's so much worse.

I've been trying stuff out instead of Tome Scour but can't say if it's any better yet.

[iostream]

I'm dinosaurus's friend who was deck teched at the GP. I ended up 10-5 in case anyone is wondering. I wrote a long tournament report here: https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/4kp99x/modern_105_with_dredge_at_gp_charlotte_primer_and/

Main thing I'd like to figure out is how to do a Legacy-style sideboard plan where you go even faster against the linear decks, since those were most of the losses. SSG and Wraith are pretty good substitutes for Lotus Petal in this role, I think. Not sure what exactly I would do to the list to accommodate it.


Thoughts on Tome Scour vs Thought Scour? I see that most of the established lists are running Tome Scour. I understand that it's more powerful on turn 1-2, as it dumps a greater number of cards into the yard. However, Thought Scour seems like it has some added utility for other points in the game. The fact that it is an instant and makes you draw a card can help protect your dredge cards from graveyard removal (e.g. Scavenging Ooze activations, Surgical Extraction, etc.). Also, milling 2 then dredging a Stinkweed Imp or Golgari Grave-Troll puts more cards into the yard that Tome Scour would. Does Tome Scour win out simply because it's a better turn 1 play on average? While I think Thought Scour is fundamentally better, Tome Scour theoretically lets you end the game sooner.
There are no "other points in the game" - 80% of your games are decided by turn 2; once you're rolling, either they can stop your parade of free creatures or they can't, and there's not a lot in the deck that can interact once you're dredging. If you're just sitting around dredging 0-1 times a turn for the first two turns of the game, you have lost since basically any decent fair deck in Modern can handle 1-2 small creatures entering the battlefield each turn by turn 3. Thought Scour whiffing is almost an instant loss.

[rufus]

...
Main thing I'd like to figure out is how to do a Legacy-style sideboard plan where you go even faster against the linear decks, since those were most of the losses. SSG and Wraith are pretty good substitutes for Lotus Petal in this role, I think. Not sure what exactly I would do to the list to accommodate it...

I'm not sure you can get the pieces to make that happen in modern. The only graveyard based sack outlet I can think of in modern is Tyramet and that takes significant mana.

[No_Life_No_Future]

I will test Haunted Dead as a replacement for stitch-wing in my list. Its better against removal and the 1/1 ETB untapped.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Blue vs black seems really relevant though with 4 Shivan Reefs. I also like 3/1 flying compared to 2/2 + 1/1 flying, though having a potential instant speed blocker seems nice. Tome Scour would really take a hit if we go B/R instead of U/R.

[Moondancerbb]

I thought i would post on my dredge list i played last night at my LGS's Modern Monday's i think the list is super explosive and pretty resilient. It really feels like the old extended Ichorid build before bridge from below was printed.

Lands 19

4 Copperline Gorge
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Stomping Ground
2 Mountain
1 Dakmoor Salvage
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sacred Foundry

Creatures 24
4 Bloodgast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomeba
4 Insolent Neonate

Spells 13
4 Life from the Loam
4 Faithless Looting
3 Conflagrate
1 Tormenting Voices
1 Rally the Peasants

Artifacts 4
4 Shriekhorn

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Darkblast
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Lightning Axe
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bojuka Bog

There were 18 people playing and below is a brief report of how the deck did.

Round 1 2-0
So i will be honest i do not remember what my round one opponent was playing it looked like it might be a version of budget elves or green beat down. He mulled to 4 game one and got stuck on one land game two so details are sketchy here.

Round 2 2-0
Round two was a little more interesting i was playing against a green beat down with Courser for some life gain and good blocks. Game one started dredgeing with shriekhorn game one by turn three he had a sylvan advocate and some mana dorks, Orginal Garuk and i had 2 amalgams 3 narcomebas and a bloodghast. I finally hit Conflagerate in the yard i burn down his team and kill on the following turn. Game Two He has a strong start turn 2 courser and proceeds to play two more on the following turns. I am keeping his life gain in check with a pair of narcomebas, by turn four i have 4 narcomebas 3 Amalgams and two bloodghasts when my dredge hits Rally the peasants i send my team in he blocks and i burn his team with rally killing on the following turn.

Round 3 2-0
Round three opponent was blue black Faeries game one i have a disgusting dredge and have 8 power on turn two with a rally in the yard. I kill him on turn three with him having no disruption. Game two I have a slower hand but plenty of dredge. I put him to eight before he digs for an answer in Kalitas one of his sideboard cards. I have two amalgams one narco, one bloodghast which swinging in brings him to 5 exiling an amalgam I flashback faithless and hit a pair of narcos and its enough to get there the following two turns.

Round 4 2-1
Round Four opponent was a blue green infect. Game one on the play i start dredging as fast as i can hitting some amalgams but no way to bring them into play. He plays Hierarch and passes I dredge more still looking for something to trigger but hitting nothing. Turn two he plays Glistenor and Hierarch. My turn three i hit a conflag and wipe his board making sure to do 3 damage to the glistenor so he cant free pump it to keep it alive. Finally hit a narcomeba and 7 power comes into play. Stuck on two lands he plays blighted agent. I dredge hit another conflag bringing back life from the loam and casting it pulling back 3 lands burning his agent again for 3. Killing on the next turn due to shock and phyrexian mana damage. Game Two He has the nuts turn two kill with double might. Game three I hit 10 power on turn two with some sick dredging and draw with a conflag and a darkblast in the yard. He plays Glistener and passes. I dredge the darkblast conflag for three on the elf forceing him to pump and darkblasting in response to the pump Killing on the next turn.

I sided in ancient grudges and darkblasts every game two but only were relevant in the last match. This deck is very good and there just isnt very much GY hate out there.

[ottofromorbit]

Hey guys it's been a loooong time. I've trolled the legacy threads a while back and I've just recently discovered amalgam. Legacy dredge deck has been on the shelf for a while. I play combo and I've found the turn 4 kill in modern less stressful and the grind is more rewarding. Just knocking the rust off my dredge skills. I still have lots of misplays and getting used to the narco/amalgam into amalgam at end on turn if another was put into the yard before the end step. I don't have the fetch lands so I'm trying the stictchwing skaab to help.
There are unburial rites/craterhoof lists and bridges lists and Loam lists... Which lists are winning?
Thanks for posting play by play and sideboard suggestions. The modern game is still a bit new to me. I'm reading all of it. These new cards have inspired me to love dredge again😎👍
Keep it coming.

[ottofromorbit]

Hey guys it's been a loooong time. I've trolled the legacy threads a while back and I've just recently discovered amalgam. Legacy dredge deck has been on the shelf for a while. I play combo and I've found the turn 4 kill in modern less stressful and the grind is more rewarding. Just knocking the rust off my dredge skills. I still have lots of misplays and getting used to the narco/amalgam into amalgam at end on turn if another was put into the yard before the end step. I don't have the fetch lands so I'm trying the stictchwing skaab to help.
There are unburial rites/craterhoof lists and bridges lists and Loam lists... Which lists are winning?
Thanks for posting play by play and sideboard suggestions. The modern game is still a bit new to me. I'm reading all of it. These new cards have inspired me to love dredge again😎👍
Keep it coming.

....*crickets.....

[CaptainTwiddle]

There isn't much activity on the Modern threads here. I wanted to give some input on Dredge, but I've kind of been reassessing it as of late, as it seems the format has moved to accommodate it in such a way that it is a contender, but is much more fair. I started on the Bridge from Below builds, because you can't argue the explosive power that Bridge provides, but I've come to favor the versions without Bridge presently, as you're able to grind better and make yourself less susceptible to certain forms of interaction/hate.

Kaladesh adds a real upgrade to the deck in the form of Cathartic Reunion. I've been testing with it for a while now and there have been multiple games where I've been able to dredge so efficiently that I had to stop dredging to avoid decking myself. I also like Scrapheap Scrounger as a 1-of that lets you buy back your Prized Amalgams without having to set up landfall for Bloodghast or dredge a Narcomoeba (which convinced me to cut Golgari Thug from my list).

Overall, I think the core of the deck is pretty set. The number of "must include" 4-ofs is high, leaving only a few slots for tweaking. I'm wondering if a single Rally the Peasants or Scourge Devil is worth it in the non-Bridge lists to add a bit more explosiveness.

[ottofromorbit]

There isn't much activity on the Modern threads here. I wanted to give some input on Dredge, but I've kind of been reassessing it as of late, as it seems the format has moved to accommodate it in such a way that it is a contender, but is much more fair. I started on the Bridge from Below builds, because you can't argue the explosive power that Bridge provides, but I've come to favor the versions without Bridge presently, as you're able to grind better and make yourself less susceptible to certain forms of interaction/hate.

Kaladesh adds a real upgrade to the deck in the form of Cathartic Reunion. I've been testing with it for a while now and there have been multiple games where I've been able to dredge so efficiently that I had to stop dredging to avoid decking myself. I also like Scrapheap Scrounger as a 1-of that lets you buy back your Prized Amalgams without having to set up landfall for Bloodghast or dredge a Narcomoeba (which convinced me to cut Golgari Thug from my list).

Overall, I think the core of the deck is pretty set. The number of "must include" 4-ofs is high, leaving only a few slots for tweaking. I'm wondering if a single Rally the Peasants or Scourge Devil is worth it in the non-Bridge lists to add a bit more explosiveness.

[ottofromorbit]

Thanks for you input captain! I love the cathartic reunion for this build. I'm also not convinced bridges is the best way. Too many pieces for the perfect game with greater gargadon make it too fragile for me. I also agree modern meta is grind-ier than legacy where bridges were your whole gameplan inside 2-3 turns. This shriekhorn. Is getting a lot of playtime. Are we topdecking more when they're online? Do they stay in vs hate in games 2 and 3?... I'm just trying to stay current on the upgrades to dredge. Are there any other sites where forums are active on modern dredge play by plays and discussions?.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Kaladesh adds a real upgrade to the deck in the form of Cathartic Reunion. I've been testing with it for a while now and there have been multiple games where I've been able to dredge so efficiently that I had to stop dredging to avoid decking myself.
My big problem was that any 2 costing spells have to be dredgeable or retrace-able. Literally any card that didn't get me going on turn 1 was really hard to justify (especially if you need 2 untapped lands on turn 2). Discard as a cost is great, so maybe this would be worth it, but I don't know what I'd replace for it other than another type of enabler that gets started on turn 1.




I also like Scrapheap Scrounger as a 1-of that lets you buy back your Prized Amalgams without having to set up landfall for Bloodghast or dredge a Narcomoeba (which convinced me to cut Golgari Thug from my list).
Do you like this over Stitchwing Skaab or Haunted Dead though? I have to imagine those two are slightly better, even before factoring the creature exile prereq on Scrapheap.

[CaptainTwiddle]

My big problem was that any 2 costing spells have to be dredgeable or retrace-able. Literally any card that didn't get me going on turn 1 was really hard to justify (especially if you need 2 untapped lands on turn 2). Discard as a cost is great, so maybe this would be worth it, but I don't know what I'd replace for it other than another type of enabler that gets started on turn 1.

Do you like this over Stitchwing Skaab or Haunted Dead though? I have to imagine those two are slightly better, even before factoring the creature exile prereq on Scrapheap.

I haven't had a problem with Cathartic Reunion costing 2 mana. I'll post my decklist below, but the main game plan is just grind with recursive creatures, then use Life from the Loam to fill your hand for a huge Conflagrate. LftL plays really well with Reunion, giving you excess cards to pitch when you don't have any of your "I want this in the graveyard" cards in hand.

The consideration/criticism of Scrapheap Scrounger is valid. I like that it doesn't require discarding to recur, as Cathartic Reunion and Conflagrate are kind of taxing our hand as is. I'm not a fan of Stitchwing Skaap, simply because I often don't have the ability to produce blue mana. Haunted Dead may be a better option. It certainly plays defense better (I mean, Scrounger doesn't play D at all), but I like that Scrounger, like Bloodghast, can play the role of another creature with which you can just attack with relentlessly. I'm only play the Scrounger as a x1, so I haven't had it involved in that many games. I might try swapping it for a Scourge Devil, which adds a bit more explosive punch to the deck at a possibly negligible cost of not being able to recur the Devil more than once.

Here's my current list, to get a better understanding of how/why I may be evaluating certain cards in certain ways:

Dredge
CREATURES
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
1 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Stinkweed Imp
SPELLS
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
2 Life from the Loam
1 Lightning Axe
LAND
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Mountain
1 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
3 Wooded Foothills

[ottofromorbit]

I haven't had a problem with Cathartic Reunion costing 2 mana. I'll post my decklist below, but the main game plan is just grind with recursive creatures, then use Life from the Loam to fill your hand for a huge Conflagrate. LftL plays really well with Reunion, giving you excess cards to pitch when you don't have any of your "I want this in the graveyard" cards in hand.

The consideration/criticism of Scrapheap Scrounger is valid. I like that it doesn't require discarding to recur, as Cathartic Reunion and Conflagrate are kind of taxing our hand as is. I'm not a fan of Stitchwing Skaap, simply because I often don't have the ability to produce blue mana. Haunted Dead may be a better option. It certainly plays defense better (I mean, Scrounger doesn't play D at all), but I like that Scrounger, like Bloodghast, can play the role of another creature with which you can just attack with relentlessly. I'm only play the Scrounger as a x1, so I haven't had it involved in that many games. I might try swapping it for a Scourge Devil, which adds a bit more explosive punch to the deck at a possibly negligible cost of not being able to recur the Devil more than once.

Here's my current list, to get a better understanding of how/why I may be evaluating certain cards in certain ways:

Dredge
CREATURES
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
1 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Stinkweed Imp
SPELLS
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
2 Life from the Loam
1 Lightning Axe
LAND
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Mountain
1 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
3 Wooded Foothills

[ottofromorbit]

Awesome! Cathartic reunion will be a huge game changer this season. solid list. I'm running the same. But still using Stitchwing. I run 2 steam vents and I never really need to use it. In thinking it could be cut altogether.
Is there any good gargadon/bridges lists that are winning?
I've been tinkering with it.
I found my old "traitors clutch" I used with the old psychatog/ichorid deck before dredge was a thing. I like the unblockable shadow 10/7 idea. It flashes back for 1B.

[ottofromorbit]

I preferred haunted dead over scrapheap scrounger... It brings in another 1/1

[meffeo]

I preferred haunted dead over scrapheap scrounger... It brings in another 1/1

And it blocks infect creatures all day long.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

[CaptainTwiddle]

And [Haunted Dead] blocks infect creatures all day long.


Which probably makes it the right choice for the current meta, as Infect the top deck. Scourge Devil might be better against the Death's Shadow aggro decks, as it lets you be a tad more aggressive and the Spirit token doesn't do much against Temur Battle Rage, but as we're talking about a single card in the maindeck, I think Haunted Dead is the option that is most relevant in the greatest number of situations.

[ottofromorbit]

Which probably makes it the right choice for the current meta, as Infect the top deck. Scourge Devil might be better against the Death's Shadow aggro decks, as it lets you be a tad more aggressive and the Spirit token doesn't do much against Temur Battle Rage, but as we're talking about a single card in the maindeck, I think Haunted Dead is the option that is most relevant in the greatest number of situations.

Does anyone run "viscera the seer" with bridges?...it seems like a good way to stack your draws and dredges

[CaptainTwiddle]

Does anyone run "viscera the seer" with bridges?...it seems like a good way to stack your draws and dredges

Viscera Seer is an option. I think the main reason it isn't run is because it's black and the deck is very much red; it's also very fragile, whereas Greater Gargadon hangs out in the exile zone, avoiding most interaction. I could see running 1-2 Seer in a Bridge version. It's nice that, despite its fragility, Viscera Seer does provide an infinite source of sacrifice; while it doesn't come up often, there are the occassions where you want/need to sacrifice things and you don't want Gargadon to unsuspend.

[meffeo]

I had pretty good results with the deck in the last tourneys (50-60 players each), top8ing 4 out of 4 and losing one in the final to Kiln Fiend Aggro. There's a big tournament in two weeks and I'm probably playing the following 75s:

4 Insolent Neonate
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Haunted Dead
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

3 Conflagrate
1 Darkblast
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Life from the Loam

2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills

SB
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Lightning Axe
3 Nature's Claim
2 Thoughtseize -> tired of losing to AN / Titanshift
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Bojuka Bog

No second Darkblast, that is why I opted for the Haunted Dead instead of the Scourge Devil. Still wondering if four discard spells are fine but I will probably switch a Brutality for a second Gnaw to the Bone (European meta, I expect a lot of Burn and Gnaw is superior to Brutality).

Food for thoughts, guys.

[Phoenix Ignition]

rip

[meffeo]

rip

Oh well, there's still the Thug...

[CaptainTwiddle]

I do wonder, now that Golgari Grave-Troll is banned, if shifting to Bridge from Below + Greater Gargadon variants is going to become the norm for Dredge. Golgari Thug is next in line for to fill Troll's slot and losing the resilience of Troll makes me think leaning on the explosiveness of Bridge is a solid choice. I like the interplay of Thug with Gargadon, as it's a way to draw a Gargadon that was previously dredged.

[Phoenix Ignition]

So after messing around with the deck and goldfishing a bunch, I'm really starting to think it's still viable.

I've gone to 4x Life from the Loam, 3x Dakmor Salvage, and 2x Conflagrate to really try to push through the last damage.

Losing GGT hurts a lot and Thug definitely doesn't replace it 1 for 1. I think you need to increase dredge density (thus the 4x Life from the Loams), which naturally led to a second Conflagrate at least in my list. Cathartic Reunion is definitely enough to keep the deck going strong.

Also, since the metagame is starting to forget about graveyard hate, my quote from super long ago still holds:

Dredge: Then it don't matter. I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a metagame that has grown complacent, so unprepared to fight graveyards, I'll be there. Wherever decks are trying to grind out their small win percentages against other decks through sideboard slots, I'll be there. I'll be in the way decks stop playing at least 4 sideboard cards against graveyards, be in the way people forget about how to play against this deck, and when the metagame has thought I'm completely dead and gone - I'll be there, too.