Changes to Premier Play - or "How the Pros got screwed over"

[Barook]

Not exactly Legacy-related, hence the community board, but the effects of this are probably going to be felt sooner or later by everybody:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptsoi/2016-and-2017-premier-play-updates-announced-at-ptsoi-2016-04-24

tl;dr:
- Plat Pros got their attendance fee cut from 3000$ to a measly 250$ for the upcoming season (which many worked for this season), aka over 90% cut
- HoF benefits are cut by 75%
- World Cup gets a bit more money

There's currently a massive shitstorm raging on social media. First effect is Vintage Super League being suspended as pros are pissed. And there's probably more to come.

Whether it's a piss-poor marketing move or a response to the judge employment lawsuit is yet to be seen. I can't really see them grow their "eSport" section with a still unimpressive prize pool for a single event while turning off a good chunk of their "stars".

[CutthroatCasual]

On one hand, I think the idea of making a living off of [video] games is stupid so I can sympathize with the camp making that argument.

On the other, if WotC wanted to change the compensation structure, they could have at least given advance notice, or at least not had the changes take effect immediately.

[MorphBerlin]

Not exactly Legacy-related, hence the community board, but the effects of this are probably going to be felt sooner or later by everybody:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptsoi/2016-and-2017-premier-play-updates-announced-at-ptsoi-2016-04-24

tl;dr:
- Plat Pros got their attendance fee cut from 3000$ to a measly 250$ for the upcoming season (which many worked for this season), aka over 90% cut
- HoF benefits are cut by 75%
- World Cup gets a bit more money

There's currently a massive shitstorm raging on social media. First effect is Vintage Super League being suspended as pros are pissed. And there's probably more to come.

Whether it's a piss-poor marketing move or a response to the judge employment lawsuit is yet to be seen. I can't really see them grow their "eSport" section with a still unimpressive prize pool for a single event while turning off a good chunk of their "stars".

I mean I don't know enough of the income structure of Pros to really evaluate this (how much comes from: attandence fees, prize money, sponsors, stream), but this seems like a major cut. A cut by over 90%? Wow

And they do not increase the prizes at the pro tour, only for the world cup... I would rather have a steady income at each pro tour, rather then the chance to win a lot during an annual tournament. It seems like somebody in management tries to hit their numbers and they try to save money this way. I do not like cutting the benefits for HoF members too, I want to see guy like Finkel, Kai and so on play this tournaments... Probably they are thinking the HoF is getting too big for the benefits they are giving to the members, that is why they will also change the voting and make it harder to get in.

[Barook]

HoF change seems alright since it isn't really sustainable in the long run. And people don't seem to really mind, either.

Making a living with playing a game for kids where you pretend to be a wizard with card board is questionable at best. But screwing over the people dedicated to the game and out of the payment you promised beforehand is just downright shady. And that's the thing a huge number of people have a problem with.

#paythepros is currently trending really hard on Twitter.

Edit: What's even more hilarious is the release of the "Enter the Battlefield" documentary about the lives of PT players just the day after they screwed them over. Their piss-poor timing is top-notch, as always.

[Phoenix Ignition]

It's a silly argument that people shouldn't be able to live off of playing games. Sports comes to mind but I'm sure people will say "But I don't like sports, I don't think athletes should be paid to play football" etc. The point is when there is enough interest in anything competitive you'll get much better competition for players and viewers if a portion of them can dedicate their workweek to playing that game. I prefer watching videogame/cardgame tournaments to most movies or TV, and I don't mind at all if those people get paid for it.

Back to this decision though, it's pretty bad for the pros this season getting their prize support cut 3/4 of the way through. I can't say I'm surprised at this move by WotC because really they've done nothing but mishandle basically everything over the past few years. I'm still under the impression WotC was lucky enough to stumble into buying MtG and the game itself was robust enough to live through mistake after mistake.

The only explanation I could think of is maybe they think making the game "less competitive oriented" will drive more of their casual crowd towards trying out Standard and buying more packs or something like that.

[CutthroatCasual]

It's a silly argument that people shouldn't be able to live off of playing games. Sports comes to mind but I'm sure people will say "But I don't like sports, I don't think athletes should be paid to play football" etc. The point is when there is enough interest in anything competitive you'll get much better competition for players and viewers if a portion of them can dedicate their workweek to playing that game.


Sports is different. You work your whole life to be good at sports, and many don't make it to the pros. You can't make it to even minor minor pro just by "grinding" for one year. In pretty much all eSports (Hearthstone, CS, Street Fighter, MTG) if you dedicate one year to playing, you'll jump in rank substantially, and often you can dedicate much less time and still be as good. Hell, in my highschool years I played MW2 like 4 hours a day (which is nothing compared to the MLG guys) and I was already in like the top 10% of randoms in random lobbies. If I dedicated half of my day playing MW2 I'd likely have made MLG. In my school there were a couple players on MLG (granted, lesser) teams and I wasn't too far behind them in terms of raw skill.

[jrsthethird]

Seriously, look at this article and video from the League of Legends NALCS:

http://espn.go.com/esports/story/_/id/15304672/rolling-hard-six-las-vegas-bets-esports

I have friends who play competitive SSB: Melee and posted a link to a Melee championship match on ESPN's website, which blew my mind that they have an eSports division now. I poked around a little bit and found that article/video, with coverage from the finals, and after never watching or playing LOL in my life, I want to watch more. Commentary was exciting and the 6000+ crowd was going nuts, which really adds to the viewer experience.

eSports are grabbing coverage from major sports networks, as well as corporate sponsorships. MTG gets coverage from MTG sites and sponsorships from MTG accessories and vendors. You think throwing the pros under the bus is going to help compete not only with Hearthstone, but also every other eSport? They're the people that have the ability to get you there, and if you want your product to compete digitally (as far as viewership goes; the MTGO client is shit anyway), you need to treat them as such.

[cdr]

http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2016/04/why-magic-pros-are-like-professional-writers-or-the-great-pro-tour-rapture-of-2016/

Wizards a) almost certainly has prize budget issues, as it has its entire history b) decided they'd rather gamble with using a big prize pool to draw spectators rather than trying to draw spectators by having the people at the top stick around. They're going to try and see how it works bringing a crop of lucky grinders up, having them burn out, and then bringing in the next crop.

And they announced it in the most hamfisted way possible, as always. They're definitely going to end up paying out to current platinums just to mollify pros a little if for no other reason.

[Lord Seth]

Sports is different. You work your whole life to be good at sports, and many don't make it to the pros. You can't make it to even minor minor pro just by "grinding" for one year.You're ignoring a key factor here: The sports you speak of are possible to have spent your life working to get good at. It's not possible to do that with eSports, because they haven't been around long enough. It is literally impossible for an 18-year-old to have worked their whole life at getting good at, say, League of Legends because the game is only 7 years old; and it's an even shorter timeframe for when there was incentive to become one of the best.

Why does this matter? Because there's such a smaller amount of time possible, it's much easier to catch up with the elite because they're not as far ahead of you. I can't catch up with someone who's trained for 10 years to be good at football. But someone who's spent a year or two on a videogame? Sure, I can do that.

The other factor is the stability of the games. New games come out and replace old ones, or current games get upgrades that change things dramatically and throw a lot of the previous stuff out the window. Football isn't going to fade away because Football 2: Electric Boogaloo gets released. And it isn't going to suddenly make it so that what decides if you get the 7th point from the touchdown is if you can beat someone on the opposing team in a swimming race. In contrast, your skill at a particular fighting game can get rendered a bit moot when the next sequel is out. It's not even just sequels, either, there are changes made to games as time goes on. Let's look at Magic. You could have an 80% win rate in Scars-Innistrad Standard, but that doesn't mean that much in present Standard tournaments.

The simple fact is that, in contrast to those other sports, there isn't much of an opportunity to devote all that time to a particular eSport because they're either too new or have changed enough to render a lot of previous training irrelevant. So you're inherently competing against people who haven't had all those years to train themselves, in contrast to you going up against a potential football player who's trained for 10 years. If some eSport manages to stick around and stay relevant for that long, I think we'll probably see it'll be much harder to "break into" as a professional than it is now.

[Dice_Box]

So I have read one thing that makes sense and thought of something myself that adds something to the thoughts of others:

1: This has to do with the Judge lawsuit.

This is not as dumb as it seams. The issue here is that Wizards is being sued by some Judges over employment rights. The issue being that the way the Judge system is setup there is some chance somewhere that it might not go in the favor of Wizards. I do not know a ton about it, just what I have read and I can not comment either way, what I have read though is that Wizards is uncomfortable with the situation and the way that Pros were paid meant they too could have (in some way) argued that they happened to be Wizards employees. To close down any legal challenge, Hasbro went nuclear and closed down the issue before it could become one. This means that the call had nothing to do with Wizards themselves but they have to take the heat for it.

2: This helps with keeping standard "Fresh"

Recent changes to the replay policy (http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/magic-online/magic-online-announcements-april-5-2016) have left us with an inside look on Wizards views on the game. Have a look at this jem:


As stewards of Magic, we in R&D feel that this action is necessary to prevent data mining that contributes to Constructed formats growing stale before their time. At its essence, Magic is best when it's a game of exploration and puzzle-solving: this is why providing new formats and new experiences are so important. By gathering large sets of data from Magic Online events, a given format too-rapidly changes from exciting exploration to cold statistical analysis. While the analysis may be fascinating, it generally makes for far less compelling gameplay. This leads to reduced enthusiasm about the analyzed format, which in turn ultimately hurts not just Magic content creators worldwide, but the game as a whole.

In removing the replays and restricting data, the only way left to mine for format changes is with teams of pros in a house going at it for a few weeks. This gives an large disadvantage to those locked out of such a system and benefits greatly those with insider infomation. A way to further push the game back fifteen years (to before the internet) would be to remove the incentive for pros to lock themselves in a room and play every deck in the new Standard environment. Since Pro Tours are only Standard now, this would have been an issue that was compounded over time, the removal of both online data mining and the house environments leaves for a less data driven and thus "Exciting" standard Pro Tour.

That second one is just my views on the situation, might be wrong, likely am, but I doubt Wizards is unhappy about that even if it is a side effect of whatever the real trigger was.

[Soldier of Fortune]

Is anyone else excited about the fact Wizards of the Coast, a Hasbro subsidiary, has broken a promise to these players? I am. It gives me hope that they are just practicing for breaking the biggest promise yet, the reserved list.

Seriously though, I feel bad for the players who have grinded these past few months to reach platinum. It's all been in vain. What would have been so hard to give a years notice? It's a damn shame.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Sports is different. You work your whole life to be good at sports, and many don't make it to the pros. You can't make it to even minor minor pro just by "grinding" for one year. In pretty much all eSports (Hearthstone, CS, Street Fighter, MTG) if you dedicate one year to playing, you'll jump in rank substantially, and often you can dedicate much less time and still be as good. Hell, in my highschool years I played MW2 like 4 hours a day (which is nothing compared to the MLG guys) and I was already in like the top 10% of randoms in random lobbies. If I dedicated half of my day playing MW2 I'd likely have made MLG. In my school there were a couple players on MLG (granted, lesser) teams and I wasn't too far behind them in terms of raw skill.

I love the "I could have been pro if I tried, I just didn't" argument. I've used it on multiple occasions before realizing that it doesn't mean anything.

Top 10% is expected of anyone who continues to play any game. If you just start out at a game you suck at it. If you're interested, you'll play longer, and one would assume gain skill. Try getting to the top hundred people in the world in a game that has regular money tournaments, that's the real accomplishment.

[Dice_Box]

No part of this conversation is about Tax, it's about Wizards actions and the effects therefore of.

I will delete the next shit post anyone makes.

[Barook]

So I have read one thing that makes sense and thought of something myself that adds something to the thoughts of others:

1: This has to do with the Judge lawsuit.

This is not as dumb as it seams. The issue here is that Wizards is being sued by some Judges over employment rights. The issue being that the way the Judge system is setup there is some chance somewhere that it might not go in the favor of Wizards. I do not know a ton about it, just what I have read and I can not comment either way, what I have read though is that Wizards is uncomfortable with the situation and the way that Pros were paid meant they too could have (in some way) argued that they happened to be Wizards employees. To close down any legal challenge, Hasbro went nuclear and closed down the issue before it could become one. This means that the call had nothing to do with Wizards themselves but they have to take the heat for it.

2: This helps with keeping standard "Fresh"

Recent changes to the replay policy (http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/magic-online/magic-online-announcements-april-5-2016) have left us with an inside look on Wizards views on the game. Have a look at this jem:



In removing the replays and restricting data, the only way left to mine for format changes is with teams of pros in a house going at it for a few weeks. This gives an large disadvantage to those locked out of such a system and benefits greatly those with insider infomation. A way to further push the game back fifteen years (to before the internet) would be to remove the incentive for pros to lock themselves in a room and play every deck in the new Standard environment. Since Pro Tours are only Standard now, this would have been an issue that was compounded over time, the removal of both online data mining and the house environments leaves for a less data driven and thus "Exciting" standard Pro Tour.

That second one is just my views on the situation, might be wrong, likely am, but I doubt Wizards is unhappy about that even if it is a side effect of whatever the real trigger was.
Given the very abrupt timing of the changes, it could be very likely that lawyers got involved who told them that the current platinum program must be terminated asap. WotC in general has a rather questionable working policy, judges lawsuit aside - paying way below industry standard for most of their positions & firing people below a year of employment to avoid further obligations (mainly in the MTGO sector, but probably in other ones as well). Those constant lay-offs are also one of the reasons why the company culture is so shitty, given that everybody tries to save their own asses. That's what we learned from glassdoorreviews.

Formats getting solved slower is probably something Wizards likes, but I doubt it would be worth nuking the entire pro scene like that.

[CutthroatCasual]

I love the "I could have been pro if I tried, I just didn't" argument. I've used it on multiple occasions before realizing that it doesn't mean anything.

Top 10% is expected of anyone who continues to play any game. If you just start out at a game you suck at it. If you're interested, you'll play longer, and one would assume gain skill. Try getting to the top hundred people in the world in a game that has regular money tournaments, that's the real accomplishment.

The argument doesn't mean anything until someone has seen you actually play and can testify to your skill. I've had people call me a modder (semi-auto firing like a full-auto) and a botter because I was that quick with my controller inputs.

Top 10% is not expected of anyone who plays the game a lot, unless you're referring to rank/score, which is not perfectly correlated with skill.

[iatee]

Yeah the potential lawsuit thing seems extremely likely to have been a factor here. Judges didn't even have such a great case for a lawsuit and still went for it - people who pay their rent with money that Wizards gives them quarterly in return for being public stars who help market the game...well...that's at least 'an employee' on some conceptual level, even if it may not be by law.

And if it was the driving force behind this, of course they can't admit it publicly.

[Phoenix Ignition]

The argument doesn't mean anything until someone has seen you actually play and can testify to your skill. I've had people call me a modder (semi-auto firing like a full-auto) and a botter because I was that quick with my controller inputs.

Oh my. Well, I didn't know a random person online accused you of hacking. You really must be pro-level. I retract all my previous arguments, consider yourself the winner of this discussion.

[TsumiBand]

Kibler makes a pretty good case for how truly shameful this is. Shifting all (or most) of the good money to one tournament is tantamount to turning pro Magic into little more than gambling.

bmkgaming.com/broken-promises-thoughts-pro-tour-changes

I don't pretend for a minute that I'm at a level where this is even on the fringe of my concerns, but - maaaan has WOTC been making some shitty shitty PR decisions over the last two years.

This is the same company that considers the decision to lock-down the Reprint List as "keeping a promise". To whom? To what end? Meanwhile, the people actually playing the game are being told mid-swing that their prizes are being totally undercut, by more than a factor of 10. Promises? To whom?

As a once-not-bad player who has transitioned to filthy casual status over the last several years - I barely recognize this game anymore. I'm nothing but sympathetic for the people that are leaving their families and connections behind who are getting utterly shafted by this.

[CutthroatCasual]

Oh my. Well, I didn't know a random person online accused you of hacking. You really must be pro-level. I retract all my previous arguments, consider yourself the winner of this discussion.

You're indirectly proving my original point that it's easier/takes less time;effort;commitment to become good at a card/video game, so you can't compare sports with eSports.

[MaximumC]

Geez, you'd think Wizards had announced they were going to start dissolving kittens in a jar of acid, the way people are reacting.

Look:

1. Yes, if you were a pro, this stinks. You were able to travel around the world virtually for free to play Magic, now you can't. I feel you. That's a zero-sum loss for you.

2. People who are making the logical leap from "This is bad for players" to "WotC has broken their promise!" are wrong. No, there was no "promise" that was "broken," guys. The Pro Player's Club policy is quite clear:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/pro-players-club


Members agree to adhere to all Pro Tour Players Club rules, conditions, and award requirements, as may be modified by Wizards from time to time in its sole discretion. Wizards reserves the right to terminate the Pro Tour Players Club program, or any member's participation in the Club, at any time in its discretion.


3. Pro sports players get paid, yes, but not by the company that manufacturers footballs or the NFL. They join businesses that operate as sports teams and work for them. Magic isn't big enough for this kind of thing, yet; they don't charge for spectators or coverage.

4. A better analogy might be race cars. Race car drivers don't work for teams, but instead have to find sponsorship. That's a model that easily translates to MTG. There are already teams for big vendors like Star City and Channel Fireball.

[iatee]

You don't get to travel around the world for free, there's an opportunity cost to not having a job (even a bad job) and grinding events at GPs your whole life.

The sponsorship model doesn't easily translate to MTG because the viewership numbers aren't high enough, companies like SCG and ChannelFireball are not large enough to really sponsor celebrities with job-level-money. They're ultimately just middlemen for cardboard and there's a limit to how big those companies could ever get. The only company in this situation with the potential to make real money when Magic does well is Wizards, which is why it's not that ridiculous for them to be the one sponsoring their own celebrities.

I'm not sure the 'give people 12k a year to live off and wish them luck w/ their tournament winnings' was a particularly great way to go about it either. But dropping the economic floor out from just about every one of the most well-known and well-liked figures in the game is just a such mind-blowingly bad PR move. I mean their legal department *had* to be forcing their hand here, otherwise the company really just is run by total idiots.

[Dice_Box]

The issue at hand has less to do with the cut and more to do with the timing. The problem is that it was a rug ripped out for under the feet of those who thought Platinum meant one thing only to have it mean another. If they said they where doing this starting 2018 season and current and next year's Plats will get what was promised, you would not see this big a backlash.

[iatee]

I don't think the backlash would be as large, but it would still exist. They would still effectively be killing the idea of a 'professional magic player', since without that 12k, prize money / articles etc. will only support a player having a fantastic year. By doing this the way they did it, they ensured that *everyone* would get mad, since it's so blatantly scummy to take money away from people who went through a lot to earn it.

It seems likely that they will restore the platinum benefits for next year. Just as the 'this is all due to the judge lawsuit' is a pretty believable conspiracy theory, here's another one - they knew this would cause a huge backlash, and they did it in a way that gave them room to compromise ("We'll give you guys money for next year.") without really meaningfully changing the decision ("We're not actually paying people to live as pros in the future.")

[Dice_Box]

I can take that as a possible offer, as long as Hasbro let's them do it. I firmly believe that at this point Wizards has zero say in this and it's orders from on high.

[TsumiBand]

Most of your points are probably salient - especially the bit about sponsorship, which is another reason Twitch is driving so much of the eSports scene, from discoverability to player fundraising. The landscape is changing, and that's legit; This, though -


2. People who are making the logical leap from "This is bad for players" to "WotC has broken their promise!" are wrong. No, there was no "promise" that was "broken," guys. The Pro Player's Club policy is quite clear:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/pro-players-club

This brand of "subject to change" legalese is everywhere and honestly using it to mitigate peoples' response to this change is really shitty considering a ton of people are basically, to borrow the race car analogy, on lap 437 of 500. It's a general purpose CYA and granting legal precedent for an action is not the singular defining qualification as to whether or not that action is made in good faith.

At least under the old rewards one could survive a run of poor variance without feeling like they're totally out of the game, but with all the chips in one big tourney this will push up-and-comers out if they can't get their name out there and get that sponsorship. Crowdfunding sounds really great until an unknown tries bootstrapping their way through a tour circuit.

[Richard Cheese]

Dammit I hate when I get to a thread after all the shitposts are gone.

On topic, it seems like WotC doesn't really give a shit about its "pros", and I wonder if that's because they've done such a piss-poor job marketing the game as competitive sport. They seem to be stuck in a catch-22 of their own making. They don't see much financial benefit to these championship-level events, so they don't invest anything in them, settling for shitty prizes, shitty coverage, and shitty marketing, so it ends up as some small, niche event that doesn't generate headlines, interest, or (most importantly) sales.

eSports meanwhile, are throwing hundreds of thousands or millions into their prize pools, and concentrating prizes into fewer places as well. It gets peoples' attention, it's worth covering in the media, and it draws more people into the game by creating an end-goal that's actually worth working for. Seems to me like WotC needs to stop treating packs like their only product and realize that what they're really selling is a community and a lifestyle.

[MaximumC]

The issue at hand has less to do with the cut and more to do with the timing. The problem is that it was a rug ripped out for under the feet of those who thought Platinum meant one thing only to have it mean another. If they said they where doing this starting 2018 season and current and next year's Plats will get what was promised, you would not see this big a backlash.



This brand of "subject to change" legalese is everywhere and honestly using it to mitigate peoples' response to this change is really shitty considering a ton of people are basically, to borrow the race car analogy, on lap 437 of 500. It's a general purpose CYA and granting legal precedent for an action is not the singular defining qualification as to whether or not that action is made in good faith.


You are both correct in that this hurts pro players. They used to get $$$, now they do not. Yes, that's a negative thing.

But, I don't get where people get the moral anger at changing the rules "on lap 437 of 500" or having "a rug ripped out" from under the players. The policy they have always been paid under from the very beginning said it could change at any time. This was not secret.

Look at it this way. Say your deadbeat brother needs a place to stay. "Okay," you say, "you can crash in my den. However, this is only a month to month thing. If I need to kick you out down the road, I will do so, so don't stop looking for somewhere else to live." Then, after six months, when your spouse is finally sick to death of the roommate, you say, "I need you to move out now."

Would you react the same way? Is the house-owning sibling "ripping the rug out?" Or are they just doing exactly what they warned they would do?


what they're really selling is a community and a lifestyle.

Damn, man, I like Magical Cards for Babies too, but I wouldn't call it a "lifestyle." 0_0

[Spam]

So, did they just killed competitive magic?
What's the point on traveling for a GP?

Inviato dal mio LG-D605 utilizzando Tapatalk

[MaximumC]

So, did they just killed competitive magic?
What's the point on traveling for a GP?


Playing magic? Trying to win money? Representing your local store or large sponsor?

I dunno, man, was the entire pro scene built around people who only went because their expenses were covered?
(I legit dont know this)

[PirateKing]

What's the point on traveling for a GP?

I mean, I went to play Magic.
Can't speak for others though.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Playing magic? Trying to win money? Representing your local store or large sponsor?

I dunno, man, was the entire pro scene built around people who only went because their expenses were covered?
(I legit dont know this)


As far as I know, this is somewhat the case with the more iconic players (LSV, Kibler, Finkle) but I'm not completely certain. How many of those fall under plat, I'm not sure however.

[TsumiBand]

As far as I know, this is somewhat the case with the more iconic players (LSV, Kibler, Finkle) but I'm not completely certain. How many of those fall under plat, I'm not sure however.

The Plat status change is wildly important, as Kibler's article explains. It's the diference between rewarding skill over time (many tournies, decent payout, one run of mana-screw isn't a kingmaker) and just throwing all the meaningful payout at exactly one event.

[Spam]

Let me rephrase, what's the point on trying to take your hobby to the next level? Traveling all year long to become a pro and get, at least, some part of the money you spent for your dedication to the game rewarded. Look, if you just go to a legacy GP once a year, like me, you don't care, but others do. Now they will go to other games that actually rewards their passion.

Inviato dal mio LG-D605 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Ace/Homebrew]

I like Magical Cards for Babies too, but I wouldn't call it a "lifestyle." 0_0
You may not, but you'd be wrong. :wink:


What's even more hilarious is the release of the "Enter the Battlefield" documentary about the lives of PT players just the day after they screwed them over.
A documentary, you say? About the lifestyle of pro tour players?

The prior reward structure was enough to generate teams of players who would dedicate hours towards solving a format. That sort of dedication towards a singular purpose is enough to modify the day-to-day of the individuals in a similar fashion as to call it a "lifestyle".

[square_two]

Official whoops.

Wizards backtracks, apologizes. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/announcement-concerning-changes-pro-club-2016-04-26)

[Barook]

http://magic.wizards.com/articles/archive/news/announcement-concerning-changes-pro-club-2016-04-26

So they did respond to the worst offense and reversed the changes for 15-16 Plat Pros that they get paid for the 16-17 season. That's a start.

Other than that, the future of competitive play still looks pretty shitty.

[Julian23]

2. People who are making the logical leap from "This is bad for players" to "WotC has broken their promise!" are wrong. No, there was no "promise" that was "broken," guys. The Pro Player's Club policy is quite clear:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/pro-players-club

Just because you reserve the right to break your promise doesn't shield you from the huge PR damage you suffer when you do.

/Edit: to merge my double post:


Look at it this way. Say your deadbeat brother needs a place to stay. "Okay," you say, "you can crash in my den. However, this is only a month to month thing. If I need to kick you out down the road, I will do so, so don't stop looking for somewhere else to live." Then, after six months, when your spouse is finally sick to death of the roommate, you say, "I need you to move out now."

Your analogy highlights what you are missing. Platinum benefits aren't something WotC basically "donates" to players because they are so nice or want to do the right thing, like in your example. The system is based on mutual benefit with especially Platinum players providing a great service to WotC through everything they did for an entire year to earn Platinum. In exchange WotC rewarded them with benefits in the following season.

In your example it's like your brother and you have a mutual agreement for him to provide a service for you in exchange for a roof over his head in the following period of time. What Wotc did was to benefit heavily from that service, then refuse to the brother what was promised. Thus the whole "rug pulled from under them", because that's exactly what that feels like. It doesn't matter whether you told your brother "I might change my opinion at any time" when it comes to whether you did was scummy or not.

[TsumiBand]

http://magic.wizards.com/articles/archive/news/announcement-concerning-changes-pro-club-2016-04-26

So they did respond to the worst offense and reversed the changes for 15-16 Plat Pros that they get paid for the 16-17 season. That's a start.

Other than that, the future of competitive play still looks pretty shitty.

Really this addresses my own biggest gripe of changing the prize mid-season; though it's a bleaker future and I wonder how well the PT will do with shoot-the-moon rewards in place. But at least they're sensible enough to finish a thing they started under the terms it was originally offered, there's merit in that.

[phonics]

http://magic.wizards.com/articles/archive/news/announcement-concerning-changes-pro-club-2016-04-26

So they did respond to the worst offense and reversed the changes for 15-16 Plat Pros that they get paid for the 16-17 season. That's a start.

Other than that, the future of competitive play still looks pretty shitty.

When hasn't it looked bad? They have been consistently reducing everything from prize payouts to promos and everything in between, on MODO and in paper, since the beginning of time. People used to make fun of Kibler for switching to Hearthstone, but I assure you he got the last laugh. For the most part being a pro magic player isn't even a feasible thing, even with a sponsor from a game store.

[cdr]

When hasn't it looked bad? They have been consistently reducing everything from prize payouts to promos and everything in between, on MODO and in paper, since the beginning of time. People used to make fun of Kibler for switching to Hearthstone, but I assure you he got the last laugh. For the most part being a pro magic player isn't even a feasible thing, even with a sponsor from a game store.

They've been consistently reducing the rewards for judges too (going from guaranteed foils per event to "do a lot of work for free and hope you get picked for exemplar foils"), apparently in an effort to reduce legal liability after the years of thumbing their noses at labor law and counting on the judges' Stockholm syndrome.

[ESG]

When hasn't it looked bad? They have been consistently reducing everything from prize payouts to promos and everything in between, on MODO and in paper, since the beginning of time. People used to make fun of Kibler for switching to Hearthstone, but I assure you he got the last laugh. For the most part being a pro magic player isn't even a feasible thing, even with a sponsor from a game store.


They've been consistently reducing the rewards for judges too (going from guaranteed foils per event to "do a lot of work for free and hope you get picked for exemplar foils"), apparently in an effort to reduce legal liability after the years of thumbing their noses at labor law and counting on the judges' Stockholm syndrome.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCtF5Metu1Y

[EviL668-2]

So, did they just killed competitive magic?
What's the point on traveling for a GP?


Do you really think people travel to GPs to make money?
99.9% Travel to GPs to sling cardboard, meet friends form all around the continent. (North America or Europe, As I think in Asia this is different).
Try to make DAY 2? Sure! Make money=> hell no!
Try to have a hangover next day? Hellll Yeeeeeha!

[jmlima]

I could not care less for the pro's, i they lose their jobs playing mtg, well, join the club, everyone can lose their job, but this backwards and forwards of WotC decision making is typical of a company that is:

a) adrift
b) led by incompetents
c) a)+b)

[Stan]

WotC played this rather well. This is how collective bargaining is handled in a lot of places. Party A wishes to cut costs by 50%, so they unilaterally cut them by 70%. Party B feels the cut and chimps out, after which party A 'gratiously decides to meet them halfway', and conceeds up to where they wanted to move in the first place. Party B is then dumb enough to celebrate this as a partial victory.

Not sure if you're ignorant or just a total fuckhead, but "chimp out (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Chimp+Out)" is overtly racist. This kind of posting is 100% unacceptable. Consider this a first and last warning. If I see this kind of behavior again you'll no longer be welcome here. -zilla

[Dice_Box]

Maybe, I still think this has more to do with orders from on high and lawyers, not costs.

[Stan]

Maybe, I still think this has more to do with orders from on high and lawyers, not costs.

Very well possible, but even then they'd likely play it like this. I suspect that after that lawsuit, somebody figured out that according to some arcane technicality judges or pro players really could be considered as employees in this or that isolated legal system. If those guaranteed payouts could qualify a potentially future platinum member from (random example, could be anything) let's say Lesotho or Mongolia as an employee, they'd have to adapt their strategy globally. I suspect their clamping down on the reserved list a few years ago was done for similar reasons.

[Dice_Box]

Even so, going full Nuclear after the 100th pro tour, with a "Stacked top 8" (others words, I do not know much about standard) and destroying trust in the company does not seem like a smart way to do things. I feel like they could have done this much better:

Offer a one time payment to cover everyone who would be affected and then back away.

Offer this "Compromise" first and then move on from that. (I think people would have accepted the change, they just did not accept the unfairness of it.)

Talk to each of the Pros individually and seek out their views. There are 32 of them, how hard is that to do?

Focus on this 100th pro tour and then burn everything to the ground after the glow has faded. Think about that. Did you even know this was the 100th tour? No nor did I until someone said it on a podcast. That's a massive achievement that Wizards did not bother to capitalise on or promote. Honestly, I am not sure they know what the hell they are doing these days.

[Stan]

This moves away from the Original thread, but one has to wonder what the hell goes on in the heads of those 'compulsive grinders'. Playtesting and grinding takes up a metric fuckton of your time, almost like a fulltime job. Those platinum guys get a meager compensation out of it, but what motivates those guys at silver or gold level to throw every free moment and penny they have on it, combining it with a job, because the payoff is even lower? This game's appeal is a lot bigger than the effort and resources WotC puts into it would merit.

[MaximumC]

This moves away from the Original thread, but one has to wonder what the hell goes on in the heads of those 'compulsive grinders'. Playtesting and grinding takes up a metric fuckton of your time, almost like a fulltime job. Those platinum guys get a meager compensation out of it, but what motivates those guys at silver or gold level to throw every free moment and penny they have on it, combining it with a job, because the payoff is even lower? This game's appeal is a lot bigger than the effort and resources WotC puts into it would merit.

If you could make an (admittedly meager) living just sitting around smoking weed all day, one imagines there would be at least a few people who would sign up.

[iatee]

Uh, that's a terrible comparison. One of those things is being really lazy - the other one involves working harder than a lot of people do at their real jobs, having to travel more often than a consultant does, all while living on scraps.

There are a ton of professional poker players out there, most of whom don't contribute much more value to the world than professional pot smokers. The difference between professional poker players and professional magic players is that there is a reliable payoff for success if you're in the first group. There is not for the second group, which is why it's an unfortunate situation.

I don't know how exactly I would structure tournaments to make things more viable for a professional community. But I think one thing I would do is limit the geography of where tournaments happen. Maybe have 100% of Pro Tours in Seattle at Wizards hqs. That would save an insane amount of money and you could funnel it all into prizes. Who cares if the last Pro Tour was in Madrid? Did we see beautiful panning shots of the Madrid? Did we hear commentary on Spanish Magic culture? Did the enormous crowd root for the Spanish home team? No, none of that mattered, the last Pro Tour could've actually taken place in an empty building in Utah and none of us would have had any idea. It just seems like a huge waste of resources.

If they were to make Seattle the Las Vegas / Hollywood of Magic, that also lets pros move there, live with each other and try to see if they can 'make it' without having to book flights around the world on a 20k salary. This plan obviously makes things pretty rough for any European who wants to be a pro, I don't know how I would solve that problem, maybe Wizards could just get employment visas for a handful of foreign superstars.

[Dice_Box]

That is not a bad idea. Also as an Australian I can say that anyone who wants to be a pro from here just moves to the US. Its just the price of that dream. I am sure though you could have some EU location that would mirror Seattle without too much effort though. It would only leave Asia out in the cold and that is not exactly new to us over here.

[iatee]

Yeah the funny thing is, this plan could *save* Wizards money. I don't think there is some huge demand for Pro Tours to be in exotic places around the world. If anything, hosting tournaments in the same legendary room year after year would be more interesting, would build some tradition, would allow Wizards to give tailored tours to the viewing public of the HQ, you could really make this a way better event for viewers and never have to book space and airline tickets to Kuala Lumpur ever again. That's a lot of money that could be turned into real player salaries. 'Play the game, don't live in dire poverty' sounds way better to me than 'play the game, travel the world.'

So many things about the way Wizards operates are totally due to path dependency and not because they designed the structure of competitive magic with end goals in mind.

[Koby]

If WotC wants to tap into the eSports movement, then it doesn't even need to travel far. The major eSports events happen in recurring cities at annual gaming conventions. Blizzcon, Dreamhack, IEM @ Katowice, PAX, etc.

As much fun as it is to "Play the Game, See the World," we're talking about a competition that's 3 days, 8-9 hours each day, and exclusively indoors. Why is WotC blowing through its marketing budget to host an event at remote (read: airfare) but cool destinations when it could focus on having a localized production venue domestically?

[cdr]

As much fun as it is to "Play the Game, See the World," we're talking about a competition that's 3 days, 8-9 hours each day, and exclusively indoors. Why is WotC blowing through its marketing budget to host an event at remote (read: airfare) but cool destinations when it could focus on having a localized production venue domestically?

Part of it is that the locations are not so remote for a lot of people - Wizards wants the game to be global. They already are picking some of the cheapest locations, by and large - it's nothing like it was 15 years ago.

[Koby]

Part of it is that the locations are not so remote for a lot of people - Wizards wants the game to be global. They already are picking some of the cheapest locations, by and large - it's nothing like it was 15 years ago.

I think the Grand Prix are a good use of the "Play the Game, See the World" mantra from the late 90s. The Pro Tour is super exclusive club to begin with, just due to the onerous qualification requirements. Just because Pro Tour: Cairo is there, does not make it accessible to Egyptians, or anyone in the African Continent to begin with. Grand Prix, with their open access, does provide high level play without the barrier to compete (outside the typical time+money issue).

[phonics]

If WotC wants to tap into the eSports movement, then it doesn't even need to travel far. The major eSports events happen in recurring cities at annual gaming conventions. Blizzcon, Dreamhack, IEM @ Katowice, PAX, etc.

As much fun as it is to "Play the Game, See the World," we're talking about a competition that's 3 days, 8-9 hours each day, and exclusively indoors. Why is WotC blowing through its marketing budget to host an event at remote (read: airfare) but cool destinations when it could focus on having a localized production venue domestically?

Thing is WOTC is beyond incompetent at promoting the game well. As far as I am concerned the vast majority of the game's popularity is derived from it being an extremely well designed game (and the first), in spite of wotc meddling.

Also, is the vsl still canceled?

[MaximumC]

All this talk about centralizing Magic in Seattle or wherever is really unfair to people who do not live in the United States. :(


Uh, that's a terrible comparison. One of those things is being really lazy - the other one involves working harder than a lot of people do at their real jobs, having to travel more often than a consultant does, all while living on scraps.


Well, yeah, maybe, but the point of the metaphor was not about being lazy; it was about doing something that people really enjoy doing as a leisure activity.

These people really enjoy playing Magic. Someone gave them the option of surviving -- if not thriving -- by focusing on Magic entirely. It's like people who get into Magic finance. Dollar-per-hour you might not make much money sorting bulk compared to having a real job, but if you LIKE sorting bulk, then there's more value in that decision for you.

[H]

Also, is the vsl still canceled?

No, it will be back next week, Randy said it the other day.

[cdr]

I think the Grand Prix are a good use of the "Play the Game, See the World" mantra from the late 90s. The Pro Tour is super exclusive club to begin with, just due to the onerous qualification requirements. Just because Pro Tour: Cairo is there, does not make it accessible to Egyptians, or anyone in the African Continent to begin with. Grand Prix, with their open access, does provide high level play without the barrier to compete (outside the typical time+money issue).

Do you pay any attention to where Pro Tours are held? There hasn't ever even been a Cairo, even in the heyday of more expensive locales 15 years ago.

Of late 2 or 3 of 4 are located in the US or Canada, in pretty boring, cheap to very cheap places. I mean, Pro Tour Milwaukee, come on.

Non-North America locations are places like Madrid, Brussels, Valencia, etc with the very occasional major Asian or Australian city (easily accessible from the Asia-Pacific area, which is also a huge market).

The closest thing to "exotic" anymore is Hawaii, which is not any more expense for Wizards than any other location outside the continental US, potentially less.

Wizards's problem is chronic underfunding, not overspending.

[jrsthethird]

In addition, now that the Pro Tours are marketed as Pro Tour: [set name] instead of Pro Tour: [exotic location], no one is going to even care where it is. Although, if they become stationary, they will need to rebrand it somehow, since it's no longer a "Tour".

[Stan]

Do you pay any attention to where Pro Tours are held? There hasn't ever even been a Cairo, even in the heyday of more expensive locales 15 years ago.

Of late 2 or 3 of 4 are located in the US or Canada, in pretty boring, cheap to very cheap places. I mean, Pro Tour Milwaukee, come on.

Non-North America locations are places like Madrid, Brussels, Valencia, etc with the very occasional major Asian or Australian city (easily accessible from the Asia-Pacific area, which is also a huge market).

The closest thing to "exotic" anymore is Hawaii, which is not any more expense for Wizards than any other location outside the continental US, potentially less.

Wizards's problem is chronic underfunding, not overspending.

Pro Tour Brussels was held in one of the dirtier parts of a rather dirty city. It's the only one I have ever witnessed, but I hope they choose at least somewhat more presentable locations for their other PT's. I had the probably all too naive impression that those PT's would be somewhat 'flashy'.

[Sidneyious]

I can't afford to travel the world to play a game and I get paid more than they do.