View Full Version : [Official] Bitching About NFC "Miscuts" Thread
CutthroatCasual
05-13-2016, 03:00 AM
Since the mods are loathe to let the discussion progress in not one but two separate threads, let's finally have one where there will (hopefully) be little moderation of posts concerning the topic.
I'll start. I don't have a problem with NFCs; there are some cards that would be much harder to find without them (textless Bolt/Cradle/Duress the big 3). I don't even have a problem with egregiously "miscut" NFCs like a certain Bayou a certain Legacy player uses. What is a problem is this certain Legacy player upcharging for miscuts of the latter type. The card is essentially damaged, and depending on the judge running an event, it might not even be allowed because of the possibility of the back of the card bleeding through whatever sleeves the player may be using and thus making such a card easier to identify. But that risk aside, there's no reason one should profit off of destroying MTG history while simultaneously devaluing genuine factory defects.
I've never had the intention of acquiring any miscut, factory or otherwise, for my decks because those cards don't appeal to me at all. But in case I change my mind and decide to get an NFC card, and I am willing to pay through the nose for it, who are you to tell a 36 year old housefather how to spend his money? If neither party uses duress or false information, what business do you have meddling in the transaction? If such NFC cards are marked as authentic miscuts, then you'd have reason to complain.
Sloshthedark
05-13-2016, 05:27 AM
let's bear in mind the whole game is still just cardboard with subjective+market value to cards... how is that hard to stomach with such virtual market like miscuts/test prints? - the prices are totally made up anyway... there is the same illusion with russian cards - it's rare but unless it appeals to the very small group of people nobody wants it and you find out once you try to sell them...
what about alter/signined card? - why should a damaged card charge premium? ... NFC probably costs something to obtain the sheets and have it cut - that's the base price, the rest is the market... in terms of rarity/accesability there is a similar situation of people who convinced Una Fricker/Gary Leach/Tarn guy/PIF guy to sign cards which ruined the rarity
as long as it's sold as NFC I can't see the problem here, because if NFC/non NFC matters it won't sell for the same prices at all...
Varal
05-13-2016, 08:30 AM
Aren't textless cards unplayable because they've no name anyway?
Quasim0ff
05-13-2016, 08:37 AM
Aren't textless cards unplayable because they've no name anyway?
It is very, very unlikely you wont be allowed to play with them, from any HJ.
Esper3k
05-13-2016, 08:53 AM
As Stan and Sloshthedark said, I have no problems with NFCs. They're no different than alters to me and if someone wants to charge whatever people are willing to pay, I don't see anything wrong with that (assuming they aren't falsely advertising them, etc).
The whole "it's a damaged card" argument is bunk. Factory cut miscuts and misprints are just as damaged. Just because a card was miscut in a factory vs on a different cutting machine doesn't make it any more or less "damaged".
People who are happy to pay 600 euro or more for a black bordered German Underground Sea, several Thousand euros for a decent Unlimited Lotus or 50 euro for one of those newer Jaces (still in print) aren't any more rational than those whp pay premium for a miscut, authentic or not. It's freakin' cardboard. Deep down inside, we all know that, we sink that stupid money into this game because we like collecting useless but pretty stuff. Complaining that one small segment of this luxury market gets more expensive faster than the rest is silly.
Mr Miagi
05-13-2016, 09:13 AM
You are all missing the point. Price is not the problem here. It that NFC cards are ruining the allure of miscut cards. Example: people like signed cards by artists, but now all o a sudden wizards start to print cards that are also start to print/distribute signed cards 8or even worse, ppls start to make good forgeries).. well it's just not the same anymore, is it now..
Same with ppl who cut their own NFC cards.. it's something you should not tamper with or at least keep it to you self and don't sell it to other collectors unlabeled to what they really are.
CutthroatCasual
05-13-2016, 11:02 AM
You are all missing the point. Price is not the problem here. It that NFC cards are ruining the allure of miscut cards. Example: people like signed cards by artists, but now all o a sudden wizards start to print cards that are also start to print/distribute signed cards 8or even worse, ppls start to make good forgeries).. well it's just not the same anymore, is it now..
Same with ppl who cut their own NFC cards.. it's something you should not tamper with or at least keep it to you self and don't sell it to other collectors unlabeled to what they really are.
Even if they're sold as NFC, there's no reason the seller should be charging more for it.
Whitefaces
05-13-2016, 11:06 AM
Even if they're sold as NFC, there's no reason the seller should be charging more for it.
Of course there is. People are willing to pay more for it.
Esper3k
05-13-2016, 11:14 AM
You are all missing the point. Price is not the problem here. It that NFC cards are ruining the allure of miscut cards. Example: people like signed cards by artists, but now all o a sudden wizards start to print cards that are also start to print/distribute signed cards 8or even worse, ppls start to make good forgeries).. well it's just not the same anymore, is it now..
Same with ppl who cut their own NFC cards.. it's something you should not tamper with or at least keep it to you self and don't sell it to other collectors unlabeled to what they really are.
I disagree. If Wizards printed signed cards (and they have in the past with those World Championship decks), you'll still get a group of people who want cards actually signed by the artist. It may not make a difference to other people, but why does that matter to you if you still like cards actually signed by the artist?
Of course there is. People are willing to pay more for it.
Exactly. It's just arbitrary to say that you don't believe one thing should be worth more than another based on your own personal opinion. The market will determine what something is actually worth.
Why do we need a complaint about xyz-thread about every possible topic?
Feel free to start complain threads about:
-mtg original art
-complaining about complain-threads
-expensive disgusting food at events
etc etc
Dice_Box
05-13-2016, 12:54 PM
Why do we need a complaint about xyz-thread about every possible topic?
Feel free to start complain threads about:
-mtg original art
-complaining about complain-threads
-expensive disgusting food at events
etc etc
Because the place this was being mostly discusses was a thread made for a different topic. This topic was driving people to fill it with worthless and sidetracking expeditions to nowhere.
The [Official] in the title is a nice touch, makes the thread look more important then it is.
iatee
05-13-2016, 12:55 PM
I'm kinda surprised these cards are accepted as tournament legal. It seems pretty obvious that there would be a lot of ways to cheat with cards that weren't chopped up by Wizards themselves.
Esper3k
05-13-2016, 01:06 PM
I'm kinda surprised these cards are accepted as tournament legal. It seems pretty obvious that there would be a lot of ways to cheat with cards that weren't chopped up by Wizards themselves.
Miscuts regardless of factory cut or not are generally treated like alters.
How would you cheat with a NFC card that you couldn't do with an alter?
iatee
05-13-2016, 01:35 PM
I don't think alters should be allowed in competitive play either, frankly.
Sloshthedark
05-13-2016, 01:56 PM
I don't think alters should be allowed in competitive play either, frankly.
you could do it with a nail clipper if you thought it's actually better than abusing lack of mental presence, sleeves and any other trick that gives you greater chance to succeed and dont need to pay $ for fancy cards and raising suspicion in people like you...
phonics
05-13-2016, 03:17 PM
nfcs are like welfare miscuts, but most people dont care and think all miscuts are the same, regardless of them being nfc or not. Sort of the same thing with crimped cards.
CutthroatCasual
05-13-2016, 03:49 PM
Exactly. It's just arbitrary to say that you don't believe one thing should be worth more than another based on your own personal opinion. The market will determine what something is actually worth.
This is likely more a function of the supply dictating the price buyers have to pay than the buyers paying what they want to pay. Sort of how the pharmaceutical industry works.
Dice_Box
05-13-2016, 04:35 PM
It's not really the same. I own four Gamble, but I want four Miscut for my deck. My deck is going to work fine as is, it's a want not a need. If a price comes up I am unwilling to pay, my deck still works. If a price comes up and it's something I have to pay to get what I want, well that is the effect of an unregulated market and issues with supply.
Now if I have cancer and need drugs... Well, willingness and choice are somewhat absent in that situation.
Esper3k
05-14-2016, 12:17 AM
This is likely more a function of the supply dictating the price buyers have to pay than the buyers paying what they want to pay. Sort of how the pharmaceutical industry works.
Except as Dice_Box pointed out, you don't actually -have- to have the NFCs. You don't need them to play the game and you hardly need them to continue living life.
Let's be honest here, we're talking about a complete luxury item. It's like complaining that Lamborghinis are expensive and it's not fair for them to charge what they do for them.
So yeah, supply is low and if buyers are willing to pay the price that the seller lists it for, I don't see the problem. That's the market for you.
This is more akin to people making an exact replica of a Lamborghini, they selling them as a replica with a wink wink nudge nudge.
I have a seriously dislike for Eli's idea; he single-handedly destroyed the miscut market. No hate for him as a person because it was a genius idea, but still.
Ace/Homebrew
05-14-2016, 12:53 AM
I have a seriously dislike for Eli's idea; he single-handedly destroyed the miscut market.
Can you explain this? How was the market destroyed? Did prices plummet? I keep reading about how NFCs are overpriced. So NFC value went up and somehow drove down the value of factory miscut cards? I don't get it... :confused:
Can you explain this? How was the market destroyed? Did prices plummet? I keep reading about how NFCs are overpriced. So NFC value went up and somehow drove down the value of factory miscut cards? I don't get it... :confused:
Yes, the value of miscuts, in general, went down. These days, having a miscut is not "unique", because people wonder all the time if it was cut from a sheet intentionally.
Ace/Homebrew
05-14-2016, 01:03 AM
Yes, the value of miscuts, in general, went down. These days, having a miscut is not "unique", because people wonder all the time if it was cut from a sheet intentionally.
Okay, but to what extent? 10%? 30%?
You said destroyed, which is a strong statement.
Esper3k
05-14-2016, 01:13 AM
That's interesting you say that because a buddy of mine who has been collecting miscuts for years actually says that prices these days are higher than they've ever been because of how many more people are interested and know about miscuts now.
According to him, he gets way fewer steals now on them and sellers often price them on the higher / overpriced (compared to other similar available ones on the market) end.
Ace/Homebrew
05-14-2016, 01:49 AM
That's interesting you say that because a buddy of mine who has been collecting miscuts for years actually says that prices these days are higher than they've ever been because of how many more people are interested and know about miscuts now.
This is more along the lines of what I'd expect, but I don't follow miscut trends.
I'd also guess the value of uncut sheets should have gone up since you can turn them into NFCs.
Esper3k
05-14-2016, 09:13 AM
This is more along the lines of what I'd expect, but I don't follow miscut trends.
I'd also guess the value of uncut sheets should have gone up since you can turn them into NFCs.
From what I've seen, that seems to be true as well (or just NFC them and not miscut them in some cases like with the test print sheet that was recently cut).
GreatWhale
05-14-2016, 11:35 AM
Crying about the price seems kind of pointless, but I'd like to learn more about NFCs.
Yes, the value of miscuts, in general, went down. These days, having a miscut is not "unique", because people wonder all the time if it was cut from a sheet intentionally.
Can't you tell for the most part? aren't NFC crazy 4 corners and most factory are like too high/low in a straight line? or have people started to make subtle NFCs?
Where do people get uncut sheets? from tournament wins or ones fell off the truck? or is there a steady source of them?
This is more akin to people making an exact replica of a Lamborghini, they selling them as a replica with a wink wink nudge nudge.
I have a seriously dislike for Eli's idea; he single-handedly destroyed the miscut market. No hate for him as a person because it was a genius idea, but still.
The man deserves any penny he makes from this genius scheme, as long as the rubes are happy to throw their money at him.
Esper3k
05-14-2016, 12:59 PM
Crying about the price seems kind of pointless, but I'd like to learn more about NFCs.
Can't you tell for the most part? aren't NFC crazy 4 corners and most factory are like too high/low in a straight line? or have people started to make subtle NFCs?
Where do people get uncut sheets? from tournament wins or ones fell off the truck? or is there a steady source of them?
So realistically, the only way you can tell NFCs from FCs is that maybe the NFC is miscut a little too perfectly (although there are certainly pretty messed up FCs out there).
As for uncut sheets, WoTC gives them out all the time and you can get them pretty easily from GP prize walls, etc these days.
barcode
05-14-2016, 01:21 PM
I do not consider these real Magic cards. Sadly, the word from upon high is that these counterfeits are tournament legal, however, that messaging is tempered with a note that a future policy change will clarify the answer.
I do not consider these real Magic cards. Sadly, the word from upon high is that these counterfeits are tournament legal, however, that messaging is tempered with a note that a future policy change will clarify the answer.
Would you consider privately cut cards counterfeits too if they were cut properly? ie: one card visible, centered as it should be, corners perfect and all the rest
barcode
05-14-2016, 02:31 PM
Would you consider privately cut cards counterfeits too if they were cut properly? ie: one card visible, centered as it should be, corners perfect and all the rest
No, because they didn't come from packs of Magic: the Gathering. Promotional cards are issued by Wizards of the Coast in packs of one or many to the distributor, such as pre-release promos (single) or GP promos (a big box).
No, because they didn't come from packs of Magic: the Gathering. Promotional cards are issued by Wizards of the Coast in packs of one or many to the distributor, such as pre-release promos (single) or GP promos (a big box).
Understandable position, but if they're cut well enough they become indistinguishable.
barcode
05-14-2016, 05:19 PM
Understandable position, but if they're cut well enough they become indistinguishable.
This beckons forth the argument about whether "good enough" counterfeits should be legal if they're indistinguishable from real cards. The answer, of course, is no, to both.
This beckons forth the argument about whether "good enough" counterfeits should be legal if they're indistinguishable from real cards. The answer, of course, is no, to both.
'Should be' doesn't really matter. If nobody can tell them apart, they'll pass the scrutiny of the head judge, which means they're legal.
Esper3k
05-14-2016, 07:19 PM
How about cards that were stolen from factories (like some of the Summer cards) or test prints?
How about counterfeits which were so good that the head judge didn't see it, and the use of them is reveiled only afterwards because they caught the counterfeiter, who sold the cards to the guy who used them? The buyer himself having been ripped off while acting in good faith.
barcode
05-15-2016, 08:10 AM
How about counterfeits which were so good that the head judge didn't see it, and the use of them is reveiled only afterwards because they caught the counterfeiter, who sold the cards to the guy who used them? The buyer himself having been ripped off while acting in good faith.
Obviously counterfeits shouldn't be allowed. People acting in good faith who have been found to have counterfeits in their deck have the chance to replace them with authentic cards or, failing that, with basic lands. If they find out after the event there's nothing really to do since there isn't a tournament to penalize them in.
On Summer Magic: Some of it actually made it to store shelves so it's legit, even if WoTC considers it a mistake.
Dice_Box
05-15-2016, 08:45 AM
I find it interesting that the top 5 percent of Magic players are bitching about the issues of the top 1 percent of themselves. It's like Trump bitching about how much money the Koch brothers make.
If it's printed legally, the only difference is the way it was made to fit into a sleeve and the Head Judge calls no fowl... Also Elis cards look like shit.
Esper3k
05-15-2016, 09:45 AM
Obviously counterfeits shouldn't be allowed. People acting in good faith who have been found to have counterfeits in their deck have the chance to replace them with authentic cards or, failing that, with basic lands. If they find out after the event there's nothing really to do since there isn't a tournament to penalize them in.
On Summer Magic: Some of it actually made it to store shelves so it's legit, even if WoTC considers it a mistake.
Even if it's not listed as an official set / product by WoTC?
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