Top 100 Day 2 meta for both Legacy GPs in US and Europe

[twndomn]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpcol16/day-2-metagame-breakdown-2016-06-12
Grixis Delver 16
Shardless BUG 14
Miracles 13
Eldrazi 9
DnT 7
Infect 7

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/top-100-legacy-metagame-grand-prix-prague-2016-06-12
Eldrazi 15
Miracles 12
Shardless BUG 12
Grixis Delver 7
BUG Delver 6
Sneak and Show 6

========================

The usual suspects, but Eldrazi seems more popular in Europe; thank to Tom Ross, Infect is still a thing in the US.

[btm10]

Pretty shocked to see that much Miracles in the top 8, and it doesn't look like an awful bracket for any of them.

[Barook]

Also interesting that Eldrazi showed up in neither Top 8.

[James718]

I ended up 113 maybe due to bad breakers at the US GP

All I wanted to see was eldrazi and I didn't play it once!

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Pretty shocked to see that much Miracles in the top 8, and it doesn't look like an awful bracket for any of them.

Ban Terminus!

[Megadeus]

12 of the 13 miracles that were in the top 100 ended up top 32 for Columbus. 28/32 decks had 4X Brainstorm

[HSCK]

12 of the 13 miracles that were in the top 100 ended up top 32 for Columbus. 28/32 decks had 4X Brainstorm

Those Delver decks are just like Miracles!

[Fox]

Fully 50 decks of the top 200 were either Shardless or Eldrazi, and only 1 (a shardless BUG) made it into either top8 - what happened? I mean I get that these styles of deck are a total crapshoot when it comes to getting their best pilots into day twos and top8s (precisely because they don't really pick up extra win % based on player ability), but 25% of the collective field had 6.25% top-8 penetration?

[btm10]

Fully 50 decks of the top 200 were either Shardless or Eldrazi, and only 1 (a shardless BUG) made it into either top8 - what happened? I mean I get that these styles of deck are a total crapshoot when it comes to getting their best pilots into day twos and top8s (precisely because they don't really pick up extra win % based on player ability), but 25% of the collective field had 6.25% top-8 penetration?

I disagree pretty strongly that Shardless doesn't convert player skill cleanly into wins. Eldrazi gets a fair number of free wins off of Chalice and explosive starts, but Shardless gets very few since all it does is play interactive cards and doesn't have any real way from stopping its opponents from playing Magic (e.g., mana denial). One Shardless player drew himself into 9th at Prague, and 2 more ended up in the top 32. It performed basically at expectations for putting 12 copies into the top 100 at Prague (4/32 = 12.5%), and lost to ANT in the top 8, which is also in line with expectations. I agree that Eldrazi significantly underperformed.

I'll withold comment on Columbus until I see the top 16 and 32.

Edit: Given the quantity of Miracles and Delver in the top 32 at Columbus I'm surprised Eldrazi and especially Shardless didn't do better there. It's possible that Shardless hit the combo (or D&T) bracket early on day 2 while Eldrazi got gobbled up by Delver, which in turn beat the combo? Reports from folks who were there?

[(nameless one)]

Was there no undefeated day 2 deck in the US? I can't seem to find it on the mothership

[sdematt]

Also, someone post lists when they're up.

-Matt

[btm10]

Also, someone post lists when they're up.

-Matt

Columbus 9-32 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpcol16/16-32-decklists-2016-06-12)

Prague 9-32 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/top-9-32-decklists-2016-06-12)

[sdematt]

Columbus 9-32 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpcol16/16-32-decklists-2016-06-12)

Prague 9-32 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/top-9-32-decklists-2016-06-12)

Are the Top 8 lists posted or am I bad at interneting?

[Echelon]

They're posted.

I'm disappointed in the coverage though. So many games and rounds played, so little coverage of it.

[Cartesian]

They're posted.

I'm disappointed in the coverage though. So many games and rounds played, so little coverage of it.
Really? I was at Prague, and it seemed like there was coverage going on all the time. Don't know about US. Next time there is a Legacy GP in your own backyard, make sure to go there. :cool:

Two epic finals at both GPs, both involving Miracles losing the last game in the most spectacular way. Great for Legacy, really shows the format from its best side.

[Echelon]

Digitally it's scarce at best. Or they're making it incredibly hard to find.

I'm looking for video coverage over all rounds and reports on more than just a semi final and a final.

[Cartesian]

Try Twitch / Magic / videos. There are 2 hours of coverage from Prague day 1, and 11 hours of day 2.

[Barook]

I disagree pretty strongly that Shardless doesn't convert player skill cleanly into wins. Eldrazi gets a fair number of free wins off of Chalice and explosive starts, but Shardless gets very few since all it does is play interactive cards and doesn't have any real way from stopping its opponents from playing Magic (e.g., mana denial). One Shardless player drew himself into 9th at Prague, and 2 more ended up in the top 32. It performed basically at expectations for putting 12 copies into the top 100 at Prague (4/32 = 12.5%), and lost to ANT in the top 8, which is also in line with expectations. I agree that Eldrazi significantly underperformed.

I'll withold comment on Columbus until I see the top 16 and 32.

Edit: Given the quantity of Miracles and Delver in the top 32 at Columbus I'm surprised Eldrazi and especially Shardless didn't do better there. It's possible that Shardless hit the combo (or D&T) bracket early on day 2 while Eldrazi got gobbled up by Delver, which in turn beat the combo? Reports from folks who were there?
Either Eldrazi ran into a bunch of bad match-ups or the players came ill-prepared. Maybe both. Eldrazi is a deck easy to pick up, but hard to master (mainly mulligan decisions and mana sequencing). And those few mastery percentages might have made a difference.

[nedleeds]

Shocking that a 24-26 land chalice deck couldn't navigate a 16 round event but we have an almost perfect brainstorm once again. But let's ban Chalice.

[Echelon]

Might in part just be b/c of the popularity of anyBrainstorm.dec - the number of people piloting decks running Brainstorm is a lot bigger than the number of people piloting decks without Brainstorm. At some point it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

[nevilshute]

Shocking that a 24-26 land chalice deck couldn't navigate a 16 round event but we have an almost perfect brainstorm once again. But let's ban Chalice.

Who's talking about banning Chalice? I'm not personally all about brainstorm but seeing people on day 2 at Prague with Eldrazi picking up and reading swords to plowshares was tilting... It feels like a tier 1 autopilot deck.

[nedleeds]

Who's talking about banning Chalice? I'm not personally all about brainstorm but seeing people on day 2 at Prague with Eldrazi picking up and reading swords to plowshares was tilting... It feels like a tier 1 autopilot deck.

The #skillintensive card, shocking.

The winner of the Prague GP was on Twitter complaining about Chalice.

... and losing to the delver go daze wrong spell, stifle all the wrong things, waste you is fucking matrix calculus, or cascading into hymn, into visions, into whatever is astrophysics. Finding a Show and Tell and a moronic thing to dump is also truly mind wrenching.

[nedleeds]

Might in part just be b/c of the popularity of anyBrainstorm.dec - the number of people piloting decks running Brainstorm is a lot bigger than the number of people piloting decks without Brainstorm. At some point it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Agree 100%. If 75% of the field and 90% of the people with 3 round byes are on Brainstorm.format.dec it's a fait accompli.

[nevilshute]

The #skillintensive card, shocking.

The winner of the Prague GP was on Twitter complaining about Chalice.

... and losing to the delver go daze wrong spell, stifle all the wrong things, waste you is fucking matrix calculus, or cascading into hymn, into visions, into whatever is astrophysics. Finding a Show and Tell and a moronic thing to dump is also truly mind wrenching.

Nedleeds moaning about brainstorm... Shocking.

Agree about Show and Tell. If show and tell was 15% of day two that'd be pretty depressing too.

The other examples you mention... Sure, pretty much every deck can win games in the hands of a trained monkey, but muuuch less frequently than Eldrazi (and SnT/reanimator) imo.

Eldrazi seriously feels like a limited deck except with a coked up mana base and bombs on every step of the curve on top of their stompy traits of lock piece on turn 1-2.

[Michael Keller]

Ban Terminus!

I agree with this.

[maharis]

This really wasn't a great showing of the diversity of Legacy. A GP is probably going to bring out the spikiness in most players but it's hard to look at the results and say that Legacy's "any given sunday" reputation is deserved.

[Megadeus]

I mean it just shows that in a 16 round event your just hurting yourself by not playing brainstorm. In like a 100 man event you can get away with it, but over 16 rounds you're either playing BS or you're resigned to not winning

[AngryTroll]

This really wasn't a great showing of the diversity of Legacy. A GP is probably going to bring out the spikiness in most players but it's hard to look at the results and say that Legacy's "any given sunday" reputation is deserved.

GP Columbus:
Of the 100 decks that made day two, Grixis Delver had the most showings, at 16. There were a total of 22 different decks. Control, aggro-control, aggro-combo, aggro-prison (or whatever we want to call Death and Taxes and Eldrazi), midrange, and combo are all present. The Top 8 was Infect, GR Lands, Grixis Delver, Reanimator, Miracles x4. That's still 5 different decks in the Top 8, including aggro-control, combo, and control archetypes.

GP Prague:
Of the 100 decks that made day two, Eldrazi had the most showings at 15. There were a total of 17 different decks and 7 labeled as "other". Again, control, aggro-control, aggro-prison, aggro-combo, midrange, and combo decks all make a showing. The Top 8 was Sneak and Show, Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG, Miracles, Grixis Delver x2, RUG Delver, and Storm. That's 7 different decks, and even if you combine Grixis and RUG Delver, 5 different archetypes.


Legacy looks incredibly diverse right now, with a few clear Tier 1 decks, a handful of Tier 1.5 decks, and a ton of Tier 2 decks that reward playskill, practice, and preparedness. What more could you ask for in a format?



Edit: Inevitable Brainstorm debate over the "What more could you ask for?" comment:
The Top 8s are full of decks running Brainstorm (7/8 in both cases). They are also full of different archetypes: 5 different decks in the Top 8 at Columbus, and 5 or 6 at Prague, depending on if you want to split it as "Delver" or "Grixis Delver" and "RUG delver." I understand that people fall on both sides of the "Legacy Diversity" debate: 7/8 Brainstorm decks vs 5 Different Decks. There's an ~700 page thread full of this exact debate-is there any way to discuss these results without it boiling down to this argument again?

Edit again: Sorry, looks like I wasn't fast enough to get this up before Finn started his reply. I don't mean to start that argument again, but it's hard to avoid pointing out the two different ways to look at the Top 8 results.

[Finn]

That's still 5 different decks in the Top 8, including aggro-control, combo, and control archetypes.
Are you seriously taking us back there? The age old disagreement about if decks powered by Brainstorm dominating the field constitutes a bad thing is going bring this discussion to a bad place.

After facing Eldrazi a LOT of times, I really thought it had enough power to balance out the bad draws. I guess my entire perspective on that is rather win-more. Brainstorm lets you eke out a slight victory, but it is still a "w".

[AngryTroll]

Are you seriously taking us back there? The age old disagreement about if decks powered by Brainstorm dominating the field constitutes a bad thing is going bring this discussion to a bad place.

There's two ways to interpret the Top 100 and Top 8 results from the two Legacy GPs: incredible diversity or incredible lack of diversity. I don't think it's unreasonable to acknowledge these two views, but you're right, it'd be great to avoid turning this thread into a "Ban Brainstorm" thread; there's already a 700-page thread for that topic.

[thefringthing]

Remember when Legacy was diverse because you could play any kind of Survival of the Fittest deck you wanted?

Well, looks like you could play any kind of Miracles you wanted at GP Columbus. One Ponder, one Legends, one aggressive Mentor list, one hybrid Ponder/Legends.

[Richard Cheese]

The #skillintensive card, shocking.

The winner of the Prague GP was on Twitter complaining about Chalice.

... and losing to the delver go daze wrong spell, stifle all the wrong things, waste you is fucking matrix calculus, or cascading into hymn, into visions, into whatever is astrophysics. Finding a Show and Tell and a moronic thing to dump is also truly mind wrenching.

Blind flipping Counterbalance like
http://content.lolspots.com/yFG4NpPzD.jpeg

[Megadeus]

Sure you can play any archetype you want to win. But you start your deck with 4 Brainstorm and some non zero number of ponder.

[Barook]

The other examples you mention... Sure, pretty much every deck can win games in the hands of a trained monkey, but muuuch less frequently than Eldrazi (and SnT/reanimator) imo.
And that (wrong) assumption is likely one of the main reasons why Eldrazi underperformed. Yes, it gets stupid monkey-level auto-pilot hands from time to time. Yes, sometimes games turn out extremely linear where either side of the table is just FUBAR. But other than that, there are alot of nuances to screw up that you might only recognize after a few hundred games/matches.

[iatee]

The #skillintensive card, shocking.

The winner of the Prague GP was on Twitter complaining about Chalice.

... and losing to the delver go daze wrong spell, stifle all the wrong things, waste you is fucking matrix calculus, or cascading into hymn, into visions, into whatever is astrophysics. Finding a Show and Tell and a moronic thing to dump is also truly mind wrenching.

The finals of GP Prague involved a very complex few turns where the Storm player outplayed someone with a huge grip of counterspells. Nobody would want to watch a finals decided by a t1 Chalice. The potential for interesting games with Eldrazi is just not that high, the cards are very brute force and the most important decision is your mulligan.

Show and Tell is also pretty dumb and is the blue equivalent of brute force and I am not sure how many people would actually be sad if it were banned.

[Cartesian]

Super solid day 2 representation by Eldrazi, and still bitching about Brainstorm? Jeeeez.
I hope you understand that Brainstorm is the reason why Eldrazi is even a deck in Legacy.
So no top 8... Keep in mind that Eldrazi was introduced YESTERDAY on the Legacy timeline, and probably not anywhere near optimized yet, and no player has been playing it for years, or become a true master with the deck yet, like some Storm or Miracles players.
This isn't Standard. Changes takes time. So go out and play some Legacy, the format of OPTIONS like 3.301 players did this weekend. Don't sit around at home, complaining about no Eldrazi in the top 8. Do something about it. I know, it's hard work. :wink:

[CutthroatCasual]

Ban Terminus!

And have the format look like Modern before Modern went to shit (circa pre-KTK)? No thanks.

[Sidneyious]

And have the format look like Modern before Modern went to shit (circa pre-KTK)? No thanks.
You mean to tell me modern was good?

I like legacy the way it is, I don't have a meta of the same 8 decks so it's all gravy to me.

Modern I find to be very dull, more than 50% is aggro and the rest is a mix of combo and control.

Not to mention most of the better control decks are a combo win.

Wotc hates combo and blue decks, that why any deck that gets some help to beat the better blue decks they ban it.

Even though them weaker decks ran more numbers of said card and the top ones only used 1&2 copies and it didn't help them anymore than the card they replaced with.

[CutthroatCasual]

You mean to tell me modern was good?


Once upon a time the metagame was like Legacy's: 3-5 pillars, 15+ tier 1.5/2 decks. Then everything changed when Ancestral Cruise and Lightning Helix Rhino were printed.

But my comment was trying to highlight the fact that the format had no real control deck–Scapeshift is the closest to a "hard control" deck but even then it's not a great one, Twin is tempo–and it still doesn't. Back then and everything was bumping midrange against combo against combo against midrange against aggro against aggro. It was diverse (as Legacy will still be diverse even after a Terminus ban) but it won't have control. I could have highlighted that better, but here it is.


I like legacy the way it is, I don't have a meta of the same 8 decks so it's all gravy to me.

Agreed.



Wotc hates combo and blue decks, that why any deck that gets some help to beat the better blue decks they ban it.

Even though them weaker decks ran more numbers of said card and the top ones only used 1&2 copies and it didn't help them anymore than the card they replaced with.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Remember when Legacy was diverse because you could play any kind of Survival of the Fittest deck you wanted?

Well, looks like you could play any kind of Miracles you wanted at GP Columbus. One Ponder, one Legends, one aggressive Mentor list, one hybrid Ponder/Legends.

You could make that argument with delver, moreso then miracles (which comes down to a difference of a handful of cards and even then, the decks still play basically the same), you can play midrange delver (BUG Delver), tempo delver (RUG Delver), Aggro Delver (UR Delver), or Control Delver (Grixis or UWR).

[hymnyou]

The #skillintensive card, shocking.

The winner of the Prague GP was on Twitter complaining about Chalice.

The best part about this is he didn't even play against Eldrazi. Blue got the best tears.

[ironclad8690]

The best part about this is he didn't even play against Eldrazi. Blue got the best tears.

Haha! If there's any one thing I have learned about magic players, myself included, it is that nothing will stop them from complaining. Even if you win/do the best you can possibly do in terms of prizes etc, there is still something that is in place that "keeps" you from doing better more often, or playing the type of magic that you want to play.

[btm10]

And that (wrong) assumption is likely one of the main reasons why Eldrazi underperformed. Yes, it gets stupid monkey-level auto-pilot hands from time to time. Yes, sometimes games turn out extremely linear where either side of the table is just FUBAR. But other than that, there are alot of nuances to screw up that you might only recognize after a few hundred games/matches.

I actually don't think that lack of pilot ability explains much of why Eldrazi underperformed on day 2, since the first 9 rounds have substantially filtered the field by that point. It was definitely viewed as a threat going in, so everyone was gunning for it. There were three Diabolic Edicts between the two top 16s, whole lot of Dismembers, and maindeck answers to Chalice. Add to that that it didn't take a ton of playtesting to see that Eldrazi's BUG, 4c, and Grixis Delver matchups ranged from "highly play/draw dependent" to "not great" once, and you have a recipe for a bad outing for any deck.

[ironclad8690]

Yeah I think everybody gunning for it makes a big difference, especially when you consider that (since it doesn't run cantrips) it is not as consistent as many of the other decks that are occupying the top tables.

Maybe there is also a fundamental problem with the plan "I am going to shut off your consistency", whether it be that there is no way to fight over prison tools on the stack or that these tools are not as powerful against a wide enough variety of decks once they have actually resolved.

Edit: Now that I have seen the top 32 of Columbus, I think that the high number of Infect decks may have also been a factor. Even though Eldrazi seems good vs infect on paper, I found that games rarely played out as you would expect and I think I only won about 25% of my games vs Infect.

[Barook]

Edit: Now that I have seen the top 32 of Columbus, I think that the high number of Infect decks may have also been a factor. Even though Eldrazi seems good vs infect on paper, I found that games rarely played out as you would expect and I think I only won about 25% of my games vs Infect.
Maybe. I don't know how well the Colorless build does vs Infect. White-based lists with Displacer are heavily-favored vs Infect barring any nut draws twice in a row on their part.

[Finn]

Problem is that Legacy's control deck is too good... A terminus ban won't kill the deck. It'll just have to play Supreme Verdict like any other fair control deck in the history of magic.

I believe the top8s of the 2 recent Grand Prix were diverse EXCEPT for the fact that 37.5% of them were Miracles decks. That is way too high of a percentage and in any other format that would be considered a ban worthy level of dominance. Also thinking about it a Miracles ban would not push any deck over the top. Elves would get better but that deck can easily be hated out.

Now brainstorm is a card that I think should not be banned. When people say legacy is full of blue decks they fail to consider the fact that these blue decks aren't just blue decks they are BUG decks and UG decks and URB decks and UWR decks and UB decks and UR decks e.t.c What does Grixis Delver and UG Cloudpost have in common other than the fact that they are both blue decks? What do Shardless BUG and UG Infect have in common? Not Much... The dominance of blue does not mean that a format isn't diverse. Blue is a great color because it is naturally a skill-intensive color which is something that many like about legacy.

I want to say this as clearly, but as politely as is possible for the subject of your opinions about Brainstorm (and Terminus).

You would do best to remain mum on this entire topic unless you wish to research it first. For the short version, just go to the Banned and Restricted discussion. Start in late 2014. You can safely end in December of 2015. The topic goes round and round with no hope of convincing the other side of your perspective. You really do not have new ideas. Bringing up these same ideas with posts like this actually hurts to read. You are just going to anger people who are tired of the pain.

[ironclad8690]

So why do you guys think there were so few midrange decks?

Are Delver and Miracles just more resilient answer-based decks, or perhaps the issue was the decrease in consistency compared to the combo decks/Miracles/delver?

Discuss.

[btm10]

So why do you guys think there were so few midrange decks?

Are Delver and Miracles just more resilient answer-based decks, or perhaps the issue was the decrease in consistency compared to the combo decks/Miracles/delver?

Discuss.

My guess (and it's very much a guess) is that the people on midrange strategies came in underprepared (either from a testing or deck construction standpoint) for their Miracles and Delver matchups since those tend to be favorable already. Despite it also being favorable, playing against Infect takes practice to get to the point where you do well consistently, and if reports of it being well represented at the top tables are true I could see it just getting a bunch of unprepared people on Shardless/Jund/Loam/Deathblade. Lands was also well represented at the top tables (as well represented as it ever is, anyway), and most midrange decks really struggle against it.

[Machinus]

WotC already has no idea what they are doing when it comes to B/R (read my archives if you don't know what I am referring to).

So it's not a good idea to whine and complain publicly about banning cards. You would think they would have a better system for making decisions than listening to random whining and "feelings"...but they don't.

So please be careful. You don't get to decide how they mess up the format next, but all that negative energy gets noticed and directed somewhere.

Be happy we have GPs in North America that non-pros can do well in. That may not last.

[Fox]

I actually don't think that lack of pilot ability explains much of why Eldrazi underperformed on day 2, since the first 9 rounds have substantially filtered the field by that point. It was definitely viewed as a threat going in, so everyone was gunning for it. There were three Diabolic Edicts between the two top 16s, whole lot of Dismembers, and maindeck answers to Chalice. Add to that that it didn't take a ton of playtesting to see that Eldrazi's BUG, 4c, and Grixis Delver matchups ranged from "highly play/draw dependent" to "not great" once, and you have a recipe for a bad outing for any deck.
The point that was initially made about pilot ability with high power floor decks like Shardless and Eldrazi was more about how few lines of play the decks will present (even in deep tournament play) to distinguish a proficient pilot from an expert. The observation that 1/4th of the top 200 earned 1/16th of the top 8 slots points to something going awry...and while hate cards can certainly account for some of that, I find it more likely that these decks are not succeeding at preferentially/disproportionately advancing their best pilots on a consistent basis.

[btm10]

The point that was initially made about pilot ability with high power floor decks like Shardless and Eldrazi was more about how few lines of play the decks will present (even in deep tournament play) to distinguish a proficient pilot from an expert. The observation that 1/4th of the top 200 earned 1/16th of the top 8 slots points to something going awry...and while hate cards can certainly account for some of that, I find it more likely that these decks are not succeeding at preferentially/disproportionately advancing their best pilots on a consistent basis.

And again, I'm going to disagree with that, at least as far as Shardless is concerned. The wheels clearly came off the Eldrazi wagon in both events, but there seem to have been larger systemic issues with the Columbus metagame given the massive enrichment of Miracles toward the top end. My best guess (aside from something low probability like all of the Shardless players coming in at 7-2 or 6-3 and then a significantly larger than expected number of them losing round 10) is that the best players in the US gravitated toward Miracles and Delver, somwe're seeing the skill differential more than anything.

[kentheide]

You all forget one important aspect;

The players who choose to play Miracles and go to day 2 are most likely overall better players than the ones who choose to play Eldrazi. Since Miracles so highly rewards tight and skillfull play players who are extremely experienced will choose this deck. Most likely they have been playing this deck for YEARS in comparison to Eldrazi players who have had probably a maximum of 6 months practice with their deck.

The important difference is that if you are a subpar player Miracles will make you an ever worse player, but if you are a very good player Miracles will reward you. Other decks can actually help you win if you are subpar. Decks like burn and Eldrazi are two of them and they were pretty popular atleast at GP Prague.

This issue is more complicated than the actual deck. Who's behind the deck needs to be taken into consideration.