[Developmental] GW Opal-Wave

[Freggle]

Opal-Wave

https://image.ibb.co/cpYjEw/Jeff_Untitled_1.gif



http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=15142&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=383041&type=card

Opal-Wave is a Green White deck designed to maximize the interaction between of Opalescence and Parallax Wave & kill with attacking enchantment creatures.

The Deck uses the Green for filtering and Card Draw, and White for Controlling the board and killing


Deck (60)

Kill Cards:
4 Opalescence
1 Starfield of Nyx

Card Selection and Draw:
4 Sylvan Library
4 Kruphix's Insight
2 Commune with the Gods
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Enchantress's Presence

Ramp:
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Fertile Ground

Enevitability:
3 Replenish

Disruption:
4 Parallax Wave
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Oblivion Ring

Mana Base: (20)
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Plains
2 Savannah
6 Forest



Sideboard:

4 Eidolon of Rhetoric
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Sphere of resistance
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Banishing Light

Understanding the Deck Interactions

Opalescence & Parallax Wave:
With both Opalescence and Parallax Wave on the battlefield Parallax Wave is a 4/4 creature.
Parallax Wave can target itself with its own exile ability this will exile Parallax Wave. When Parallax Wave exiles itself it triggers it’s own exit the battlefield clause and returns itself and all of the other exiled creatures exiled by Parallax Wave to the battlefield. This will reset the Fading counters to 5.

Opalescence & Parallax Wave: Infinite Creature Exile Combo [Holding Priority & the Stack]
If you target an opposing creature with Parallax Wave, hold priority then target Parallax Wave the stack will look like below:

https://image.ibb.co/j2i4xG/1_2_2018_9_09_33_PM.gif

Top
[Parallax Wave Exile Trigger – Targeting Parallax Wave]
[Parallax Wave Exile Trigger – Opponent’s creature]
Bottom

The stack will resolve top to bottom and start with the exile ability targeting Parallax Wave. This will then trigger Parallax Wave’s Exit the battle field trigger. The stack will then look like below

Top
[Parallax Wave Return to Battlefield Trigger]
[Parallax Wave Exile Trigger – Opponent’s creature]
Bottom

Parallax Wave will then return to the battlefield with a fresh set of 5 counters on it. In the Game of Magic this is treated as a new object, and no longer has any relation to the exile trigger remaining on the stack. Then the stack will look like follows

Top
[Parallax Wave Exile Trigger – Opponent’s creature]
Bottom

This will exile the opponent’s creature indefinitely as there will be no exit the battle field trigger from the Parallax Wave that exiled the creature since that copy has already left the battlefield. This can be repeated indefinitely.

Opalescence& Parallax Wave and Infinite Creature removal Evasion
The “blink ability” can also be used to evade all non-split second removal.

Top
[Removal Targeting Parallax Wave]
Bottom

Top
[Parallax Wave Exile targeting itself]
[Removal Targeting Parallax Wave]
Bottom

Parallax Wave exiles itself triggering the exit the battlefield trigger

Top
[Parallax Wave exit the battlefield trigger]
[Removal Targeting Parallax Wave – Now Gone]
Bottom


Parallax Wave returns back to the battlefield as a new copy

Top
[Removal Targeting Parallax Wave – Now Gone]
Bottom

The removal spell fizzles due to lack of target.


Parallax Wave, Opalescence, Oblivion Ring: Infinite Permanent removal
Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield and triggers.

Top
[Oblivion Ring Enter the Battlefield Exile Trigger Targeting Permanent]
Bottom

Use Parallax Wave to target Oblivion Ring to get the following Stack

Top
[Parallax Wave Exile Trigger Targeting Creature Oblivion Ring]
[Oblivion Ring Enter the Battlefield Exile Trigger Targeting Permanent]
Bottom

Parallax Wave trigger resolves exiling Oblivion Ring

Top
[Oblivion Ring Enter the Battlefield Exile Trigger Targeting Permanent]
Bottom

The Permanent is removed

Blink Parallax Wave to bring back both 5 counter Parallax Wave and Oblivion Ring. Oblivion Ring can choose a new target and is considered a new object and when leave the

Evading Wrath Effects

Hide select enchantments under Parallax Wave, and let the Wrath resolve. All creatures under Parallax Wave will return to the Battlefield


Playing the Deck

...forthcoming

[Claymore1]

Hey Freggle, I'll support you. Specially when it comes to Enchantress discussions, I'll gladly help out.

A couple of things I've noted is your heavier reliance on replenish, as well as a few possible switches.
Seeing as you are using the Kruphix and commune, woudn't Vessel of Nascency be better of in this build?
It synergizes more with the deck's Enchantress, Sanctums and Replenish.

I was going to mention Abundant Growth, however, since the plan is the mana ramp and not the color fix, then since it is on color, then perhaps Trace of Abundance may be a better choice. It will protect the sanctums and also versus cards like Rishadan Port.

This may be the build where you can instead run Living Wish, allowing you to run more utility, and have game one answers to most decks by wishing for Maze of Ith, Teeg, or simply dropping a peace keeper, as well as acting as an extra sanctum or enchantress. Or simply wish for Emrakul as your last resort if your main strategy fails.

Graveyard hate that your deck is lacking, but won't be affected by, is with the use of Ground Seal. It does not hurt you, but it shuts off any target based cards such as Life from the Loam, Deathrite Shaman, Surgical extractions and such. Works great too with replenish.

Also this is just some random fun thing :)...
Seeing a syou run a heavier Replenish count, and also noticing you're just one Oblivion ring short.
For the fun and lulz, of things, you could squueze in the 3rd oblivion ring and a Eidolon of Blossoms for the possible "Draw X cards" by messing with 3 O-rings effects exiling each other while triggering blossoms. It'll be fun, but not worth it... that's why I mentioned its just a random thought. :)

[area]

Finally, a reason for four Sylvan Libraries that isn't Plug.

I never liked the 1-of Leyline maindeck when I was playing Lejay's original Omnitell. Not nearly so bad here though, given it can be cast easily, but still leaves an odd taste in my mouth.

Why the Oblivion Ring / Banishing Light split? In traditional enchantress the latter is better as you can use it to cantrip if they don't have any targets and you don't want to eat something of your own, but I would have thought the combo benefits would have outweighed that.

By virtue of the fact you have Sylvan Library over Mirri's Guile can I assume you're finding yourself paying the life for cards often?

Regarding Ground Seal, I'll just point out it's not quite perfect as it messes up Starfield.

Really looking forward to sleeving this up.

[Freggle]

Hey Freggle, I'll support you. Specially when it comes to Enchantress discussions, I'll gladly help out.

A couple of things I've noted is your heavier reliance on replenish, as well as a few possible switches.
Seeing as you are using the Kruphix and commune, woudn't Vessel of Nascency be better of in this build?
It synergizes more with the deck's Enchantress, Sanctums and Replenish.

Claymore, Thank you. I haven't posted how to play the deck, but Replenish is just an option. You can easily play the deck without ever casting a Replenish.

Vessel of Nascency is a card I do have my eye on, but have not tested it. I'm trying to keep the deck to as little Activated abilities as possible to reduce hate. ...don't want to roll over to multiple Pithing Needle or Suppression Fields


I was going to mention Abundant Growth, however, since the plan is the mana ramp and not the color fix, then since it is on color, then perhaps Trace of Abundance may be a better choice. It will protect the sanctums and also versus cards like Rishadan Port.

Haven't tried it. It could work.


This may be the build where you can instead run Living Wish, allowing you to run more utility, and have game one answers to most decks by wishing for Maze of Ith, Teeg, or simply dropping a peace keeper, as well as acting as an extra sanctum or enchantress. Or simply wish for Emrakul as your last resort if your main strategy fails.

I'd first test more Enchantments as alt wins, then venture into other cards to maximize the decks engine and staying power. Two Cards in mind are Words of Wilding (Combos with Sylvan Library), and Sacred Mesa.


Graveyard hate that your deck is lacking, but won't be affected by, is with the use of Ground Seal. It does not hurt you, but it shuts off any target based cards such as Life from the Loam, Deathrite Shaman, Surgical extractions and such. Works great too with replenish.

Original version did play Ground Seal, but was cut for other more impact cards. Opal, Wave, and Seal allows you to draw your whole deck FYI


Also this is just some random fun thing :)...
Seeing a syou run a heavier Replenish count, and also noticing you're just one Oblivion ring short.
For the fun and lulz, of things, you could squueze in the 3rd oblivion ring and a Eidolon of Blossoms for the possible "Draw X cards" by messing with 3 O-rings effects exiling each other while triggering blossoms. It'll be fun, but not worth it... that's why I mentioned its just a random thought. :)

That is a little magical Christmas land, but in earlier versions I have done this. More Oblivion Rings is not a bad thing though. It helps fend off Teeg, Sup Fields, Revoker, Counterballance to allow us to combo. Likely one more Oring is correct.

[Freggle]

Finally, a reason for four Sylvan Libraries that isn't Plug.

I never liked the 1-of Leyline maindeck when I was playing Lejay's original Omnitell. Not nearly so bad here though, given it can be cast easily, but still leaves an odd taste in my mouth.

Why the Oblivion Ring / Banishing Light split? In traditional enchantress the latter is better as you can use it to cantrip if they don't have any targets and you don't want to eat something of your own, but I would have thought the combo benefits would have outweighed that.

By virtue of the fact you have Sylvan Library over Mirri's Guile can I assume you're finding yourself paying the life for cards often?

Regarding Ground Seal, I'll just point out it's not quite perfect as it messes up Starfield.

Really looking forward to sleeving this up.

The MD Leyline of Sanctity can be cut. It there to give us more game against burn and combo. A given the casting cost of most of the cards in the deck it may be a good deck for 3 ball. (Trinisphere)

Oblivion Ring / Banishing Light Split is designed to play around a Meddling Mage / Pithing Needle combo locking out the deck, or to play around surgical. Even when everything is going wrong you can still potentially win.

I do pay life for cards using Sylvan Library fairly often, but it's obviously conditional. Also the 2/2 body is nice vs. a 1/1 under Opal.

Enjoy, let me know how it goes or what improvements you make.

[square_two]

How necessary is Enlightened Tutor when you are playing 4 Kruphix and 2 Commune? Would it be worth it to cut them in order to go up to a full playset of Commune? Or it could be a couple of Sterling Grove which come back from Replenish (and loop themselves if you draw more Replenishes) and draw cards from Enchantress's Presence, and are keepable when hit from Kruphix.

Eidolon of Blossoms works well to draw cards once the combo is achieved. And it can be semi-protected by the wave if Opal isn't out quite yet. Seems like Eidolons might be better if Sterling Grove is added since it does help to protect them and achieve a higher density of enchantments.

I was looking at the other "Words of" cards in the cycle...Words of Worship could gain you 15 life a turn with a Sylvan Library. Might only be impressive against Burn though. Leyline from the side sounds easier to get going, and also helps with Storm.

[Freggle]

How necessary is Enlightened Tutor when you are playing 4 Kruphix and 2 Commune? Would it be worth it to cut them in order to go up to a full playset of Commune? Or it could be a couple of Sterling Grove which come back from Replenish (and loop themselves if you draw more Replenishes) and draw cards from Enchantress's Presence, and are keepable when hit from Kruphix.

This is interesting. Up until earlier this week I was playing a full playset of Commune with the Gods. Athough I did not feel making the change was necessary it seem like Enlightened Tutor it too powerful of a card not to test so I added (2). Enlightened also allows us to topdeck Artifacts should we go 3ball or Sphere of resistance as our combo hate of choice.

One thing to note: Sterling Grove provides shroud not hexproof. this prohibits Parallax Wave from targeting itself or any other enchantment you own. However, if the combo is in place you can sacrifice it to to topdeck tutor for something say Enchanted Evening? That's probably too cute, but with Opalescence & Enchanted Evening on the battlefield Parallax Wave can exile anything without the help of Oblivion Ring. It also turn all lands into 0/0 creatures "killing" them and not allowing anyone else to keep another land into play so long as they are both on the battlefield. Again, probably too cute. Sterling Grove is interesting, and should be tested, but not certain it will make the cut yet.


Eidolon of Blossoms works well to draw cards once the combo is achieved. And it can be semi-protected by the wave if Opal isn't out quite yet. Seems like Eidolons might be better if Sterling Grove is added since it does help to protect them and achieve a higher density of enchantments.

Your better off with Ground Seal if you want to draw your whole deck under the combo because you can control the draw. A large Replenish can deck you since Eidolon's draw is not a may ability. Further more the loose graveyard hate Ground Seal gives you just being Ground Seal isn't bad and keeps the curve of the deck lower.


I was looking at the other "Words of" cards in the cycle...Words of Worship could gain you 15 life a turn with a Sylvan Library. Might only be impressive against Burn though. Leyline from the side sounds easier to get going, and also helps with Storm.

It's not bad, but likely falls under the too cute. It could pull you out of Tendrils range, and it can regain lost life from Sylvan Library draws, but I'm still not sold it's worth the slot.

[Freggle]

How necessary is Enlightened Tutor when you are playing 4 Kruphix and 2 Commune? Would it be worth it to cut them in order to go up to a full playset of Commune? Or it could be a couple of Sterling Grove which come back from Replenish (and loop themselves if you draw more Replenishes) and draw cards from Enchantress's Presence, and are keepable when hit from Kruphix.

Eidolon of Blossoms works well to draw cards once the combo is achieved. And it can be semi-protected by the wave if Opal isn't out quite yet. Seems like Eidolons might be better if Sterling Grove is added since it does help to protect them and achieve a higher density of enchantments.

I was looking at the other "Words of" cards in the cycle...Words of Worship could gain you 15 life a turn with a Sylvan Library. Might only be impressive against Burn though. Leyline from the side sounds easier to get going, and also helps with Storm.

In testing vessel of nascency is not very good in this deck, however Sterling Grove is quite powerful for the A+B combo deck.

Also, if there is only 1 on the battlefield its very good even while comboing:

Sterling, Opal and Parallax wave on the battlefield, and you want to exile an opponents creature:

1. Wave targets Sterling, Let trigger resolve. Sterling is now exiled by wave.

2. Target Creature, hold priority, Target wave. Let triggers resolve.

Wave and sterling will return, then opponents creature will be exiled.

You can also do this to "blink" sterling to protect it from removal.

[Weapon X]

As usual I have a question first.

Why not UW like it was originally?

[Freggle]

As usual I have a question first.

Why not UW like it was originally?

Assuming you mean a list like this (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9176&d=252509&f=ST). You don't really gain all that much aside from access to counterspells, and Attunement

I think with the printing of Kruphix's Insight and Commune with the Gods you have access to better dig spells in green, and better ramp to affect the game earlier, than you do in :u:. In addition, after having tested Sterling Grove as well I feel that is also a very strong reason to consider :g::w:.

If you want to be able to force through your enchantments, and have more game against combo :w: has access to Silence, and Orim's Chant which in many situations they will be better than a counterspell.

...for control :g: also has Autumn's Veil, City of Solitude, and Enchantress's Presence. Is that the correct :u::w: list you were referring to?

[Weapon X]

It was. I wanted to know where you were coming from before I make any other comments. Thank you for the reply this time.

[vanbrueo]

Hey folks / Freggle,

I've been picking up the pieces for Enchantress for a while now and have most of the shell cards. I stumbled over to this thread from page 236 of Enchantress / Solitaire (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5302-Deck-Solitaire-(Enchantress)/page236). Now I'm trying to figure out if I want to build yer "Opal-Wave" version, which looks quite fun, or a more traditional enchantress deck.

Can you guys weigh in on which you think would be a better fit for me?

I'm admittedly not good at staying with one weapon for very long. :cool: Love to build and brew but don't get in a lot of reps or testing in. I play LGS once a week or less and the occasional tourney - paper only. I've found a distaste for decks that have a particularly long learning curve.

I'm moderately competitive so I'd like some consistency and something that isn't too much a dog in common matchups. More-so however, I'm a non-traditionalist and get a kick out of fringe & left field decks that my opponents don't know how to play against. My most recent frolics: Eldrazi mimic - stiflenought / Mono black and then B/G Stax / U/R Painter.

I'm in it for the fun, the surprise factor, and hopefully a relatively competitive deck that doesn't require a top level technician to pilot and still get some W's.

So, what do you guys think? More established Enchantress or this beauty?

Cheers,
vanbrueo

[Poron]

you totally want City of Solitude, Sterling Grove and Seal of Cleansing.

I understand Grove kills Wave combo but you can always sacrifice it when you are around that time.

Also, aren't more Leyline just strictly better? 2-3 Leyline online since the beginning, Serra's Sanctum into Opalescence or the new 5 mana one.. you can swing for 10 turn 2 and Sterling Grove is just enough to seal it.

Additionally: all Leylines provide utility to the strategy and Crop Rotation gives you the consistency you seek for when you need Sanctum

[Freggle]

Latest Version. Extremely consistent, and fun.


Main:
5 Forest
3 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sterling Grove
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Enchantress's Presence
4 Kruphix's Insight
2 Replenish
4 Opalescence
4 Parallax Wave
1 Starfield of Nyx

SB
2 Banishing Light
4 Eidolon of Rhetoric
3 Leyline of Sancitity
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Sphere of Resistance


...could likely use Karakas, but was trying to keep the mana base to as many basics as possible. Least used card is Carpet of Flowers.

[square_two]

I tried this in a league last night. D&T seems like a very tough matchup although I did get a concession game one when I finally assembled the combo. Exiling all their creatures is very satisfying. Revoker (and now Recruiter->Revoker) naming Wave, Flickerwisp killing the land enchantments, Port tapping down lands...it's a struggle for sure.

[Freggle]

I tried this in a league last night. D&T seems like a very tough matchup although I did get a concession game one when I finally assembled the combo. Exiling all their creatures is very satisfying. Revoker (and now Recruiter->Revoker) naming Wave, Flickerwisp killing the land enchantments, Port tapping down lands...it's a struggle for sure.

Yes. I agree that D&T is on the hit list to solve for sure. I typically load-up on Banishing Lights and Oblivion Rings, and try and combo, but your right it's hard. Too hard. Though I can win. Although it typically involves lucky Orings or abusing Replenish. This may be a deck where having access to Humility makes sense. Judges worst nightmare Humility and Opalescence in the same deck.

[Claymore1]

Hey Freggle, I wanted to ask. Is Serra's Sanctum really the way to go with this deck, are we really really trying to hit a critical mass or are we just trying to find the pieces, apply pressure and end things from there?

What I have in mind of replacing are the Serra's Sanctums, Utopia Sprawls, and Wild Growth (12 cards).
What to bring in would be 4 Ancient Tombs / 2-3 City of Traitors / 3 Chrome Mox (9-10).

Which Should open up more space for other things.

It'll allow us to power out out spells faster, and assemble them sooner.
Sideboarding will also allow us to have a potential play of Turn 1 Trinisphere or turn 1 Chalice at 1.

There's even a potential...
T1: Tomb > Mox > Commune (toss away Opal / Wave)
T2: Land > Replenish

Thanks.

[Freggle]

Hey Freggle, I wanted to ask. Is Serra's Sanctum really the way to go with this deck, are we really really trying to hit a critical mass or are we just trying to find the pieces, apply pressure and end things from there?

What I have in mind of replacing are the Serra's Sanctums, Utopia Sprawls, and Wild Growth (12 cards).
What to bring in would be 4 Ancient Tombs / 2-3 City of Traitors / 3 Chrome Mox (9-10).

Which Should open up more space for other things.

It'll allow us to power out out spells faster, and assemble them sooner.
Sideboarding will also allow us to have a potential play of Turn 1 Trinisphere or turn 1 Chalice at 1.

There's even a potential...
T1: Tomb > Mox > Commune (toss away Opal / Wave)
T2: Land > Replenish

Thanks.

This is possible, and has had some development here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24374-Developmental-Enchantment-Stompy&highlight=opalescence).

To be honest I never played the OP's list in that thread. What I see is if you want to use the dig Engine of Kruphix's Insight and Commune with the Gods your hate pieces will just fall to the yard, and you'll have a greater chance of whiffing. You are also more exposed to Wasteland, and could get waste-locked under your own 3ball. ...but again these are untested concerns.

[frafen]

Ah, when I first read the name of the deck I was expecting some crazy ramp-prison deck with Mox Opals and Genesis Wave... cool concept.

[Kid]

Quick question for you guys!
What if the opponent target Opalescence and not Parrallex Wave? You cannot save both right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Freggle]

Quick question for you guys!
What if the opponent target Opalescence and not Parrallex Wave? You cannot save both right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm assuming Opalescence is being targeted with some legal "kill spell" for enchantments in this scenario.

This also assumes there is only one Opalescence and one Parallax Wave on the battlefield.

If the above is true then Opalescence is not a creature (and therefore can not be targeted by creature kill spells) and can not be exiled by Parallax Wave.

If there is one Parallax Wave and two Opalescences then each Opalescence make the other a creature and Parallax Wave then can exile to save the targeted Opalescence.

If there is one Parallax Wave one Opalescence and one Sterling Grove in play the only creature / enchantment that can be targeted is Sterling Gove, but Gove can be exiled / saved by Parallax Wave. If a second "kill spell" is played to target Opalescence or Parallax Wave you can in response exile Parallax Wave triggering it exit the battlefield clause to return itself and Sterling Grove to the battlefield. This will then give Opalescence and Parallax Wave[/cards] shroud, and the spell still on the stack will fizzle on resolution.

Hopefully that clears this up.

[Kid]

Cheers mate, that's clearer!

However I still don't understand how you can save all your enchantements without losing Parallax Wave on a wrath effect spell (assuming you got Opalescence on board obviously)


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[Freggle]

Cheers mate, that's clearer!

However I still don't understand how you can save all your enchantements without losing Parallax Wave on a wrath effect spell (assuming you got Opalescence on board obviously)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You do loose Parallax Wave but nothing Exiled by Parallax Wave. When Parallax Wave Exit's the battlefield it will trigger the exit the battlefield clause, and return all others. If there is a Starfield of Nyx that survives you can return the Parallax Wave to the battlefield during your next upkeep.

[Kid]

You do loose Parallax Wave but nothing Exiled by Parallax Wave. When Parallax Wave Exit's the battlefield it will trigger the exit the battlefield clause, and return all others. If there is a Starfield of Nyx that survives you can return the Parallax Wave to the battlefield during your next upkeep.

Ok so that's what I thought.
I thought that I missed something!

Cheers for your help!


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[Claymore1]

I piloted this deck today, I was on 2nd place (2-1) before I dropped out on the final match. we stayed super late at work so I was tired and hungry. But still decded to go out and have fun. :)

Round 1 (vs Sneak and Show)

Game 1 - Opponent played show and tell, firing off with a really early Show and Tell. It was Emrakul vs Parallax Wave, and he met banishing light the next turn, and soon got killed by Sylvan Library, Banishing Light and Wave.
Game 2 - Opponent went first, I started with Leyline, and he Showed and Tell right away. It was Griselbrand vs Trinisphere. He scooped in a few turns when I assembled the Opal/Wave combo.

2-0
Current standing 1-0

Round 2 (vs Burn)

My opponent Is apperantly a new judge, and he's very friendly and fun to play with.

Game 1 - Opponent assembled a few creatures really fast while I had the combo in hand, too many green mana sources and no second white mana available.
Game 2 - I started with 2 leylines, he got me down low with the swiftspears and Eidolon, but it soon became a slugfest when my leylines became 4/4s, my leylines getting me there..
Game 3 - "Juuuudge!" haha, judge was called when Humility and Opalessence was in play. The judge had an omg kind of expression on his face. This match also became a slugfest, but it ended quickly when Parallax Wave made an appearance.

2-1
Current standing 2-0

Round 3 (vs Death and Taxes)

This match was a one sided beating, there wasnt much I can do.

Game 1 - Opponent started off with a vial, followed by turn 1 Thalia. I was then facing stone forge and batterskull shortly. I lost.
Game 2- I went first, had a decent hand, but just not fast enough. opponent had Vial again turn 1, but this time I was facing not just Thalia, but Rishadan Port as well. I was soon over run by white critters.

0-2
Current standing (2-1)


I was tired and hungry so I dropped out despite being told that im on 2nd place, and would have top 4d.
As much as I want to stay, I'm just really tired, and shook everyones hands and told them great games.

[Freggle]

Deleted. Meant to post in a different Thread :-/

[Memories of the Time]

Now that Cast Out is real, could be a nice idea to play a deck with Replenish? =)

[Freggle]

After some more play testing the deck wants 3 Porphyry Nodes in the SB more than the 3 Carpet of Flowers. This helps shore up the D&T MU.

Since this deck does not play Argothian Enchantress it is a near perfect fit. Tutorable, can be found by Kruphix's Insight.

[square_two]

Took this one for a spin in a league last night to a 2-3 record. Beat Burn and BR Reanimator, both very luckily. Lost to Grixis Delver, BR Reanimator, and Elves.

I think we need to have full 4 Leyline of the Void in the side...otherwise that fast type of reanimator combo is extremely not in our favor. We do have some (exceedingly small) chance to get a milled Leyline into play using Replenish. Bonus points that we do have Groves to protect them from Wear//Tear (the guy I lost to found 3 in game 3...)

I've no idea what can be used for Elves. Can't really tell if Sphere is really helpful there or if some GW non-enchantment, non-artifact is needed. I dislike most ench/art answers for them due to Rec Sage. Maybe Grafdiggers Cage to supplement both matchups? Least they can't GSZ for Sage at that point and it could provide the time to win with our combo. Otherwise we have like...Holy Light as an option.

I'm not sure what to cut for Cast Out, either.

[square_two]

Any thoughts on the Solemnity/Phyrexian Unlife lock in here? Grove protects from Abrupt Decay and having both on the field could stall for quite a bit of time. Don't think I've seen any legacy enchantment decks try to abuse those two, there are modern decks popping up though. It might just take up too many spaces trying to fit enough in to reliably hit them, and it is another 2-card combo alongside our existing one. Least both enchantments are 3 cmc instead of 4.

[Freggle]

Any thoughts on the Solemnity/Phyrexian Unlife lock in here? Grove protects from Abrupt Decay and having both on the field could stall for quite a bit of time. Don't think I've seen any legacy enchantment decks try to abuse those two, there are modern decks popping up though. It might just take up too many spaces trying to fit enough in to reliably hit them, and it is another 2-card combo alongside our existing one. Least both enchantments are 3 cmc instead of 4.

Short answer I have not. Haven't really been playing to be honest.

I don't think it's a good idea either since Solemnity would kill the counters on Parallax Wave

[square_two]

Short answer I have not. Haven't really been playing to be honest.

I don't think it's a good idea either since Solemnity would kill the counters on Parallax Wave

>.< Couple of times now I've thought of a card with counters trying to work with Solemnity.

Though I can imagine a list with Opal/Wave replaced by those two, and then finding a way to add in 2 Sigil of the Empty Throne or some such win-con.

[Fjaulnir]

Never played this before, ran it through a league today and finished 3-2 despite some play mistakes. I could easily have finished 4-1; I just didnt realise I could O Ring a Pithing Needle on Parallax Wave to then exile the Sylvan Library (I had Opalescence in play so it was a creature). I O Ringed the Sylvan and died to not being able to exile stuff anymore with P Wave for the rest of the game (I was 1-0 and got him down to 2-3 life before dying to a Delver, so it definitely would have finished 2-0 in that case (and 4-1 total) instead of 1-2 and 3-2 overall.


Beat 4C Loam, 12-post Eldrazi, Eldrazi Aggro; lost (due to being unfamiliar to the deck as mentioned in the above scenario) to RUG Delver; and to BUG Delver due to just losing/being 1 turn too slow to play a 2nd Replenish in a row - first one got countered.


The deck was a lot stronger than I expected, I just played it as a gimmick/joke!

[mistercakes]

With any deck running 4 Sylvan library, would it not make sense to try to play at least 1 abundance?

[HouseOfCards]

Is 4 sylvan library really better than 4 argothian enchantress in an enchantment based deck? I'm new to the legacy enchantress archetype so i'm looking to learn here.

[Claymore1]

I've no idea what can be used for Elves

Versus elves one thing that I used to use for my GWr enchantress when I used to see elves in my area is Authority of the Consuls it's a measely 1 mana, that slows their deck to a crawl, that will buy you enough time to assemble your pieces.


Is 4 sylvan library really better than 4 argothian enchantress in an enchantment based deck? I'm new to the legacy enchantress archetype so i'm looking to learn here.

I wouldn't really call this deck enchantress. The deck wants to assemble to combo fast or find Opalessence fast, that's why it uses lots of tutor or card filtering spells.
The deck can afford to pay the life for the sake of finding the pieces. The Sylvan Library can also start swinging once you drop the Opalessence :)
It's actually pretty cool to smack someone for 2 with sylvan library, or in my case attacking with blood moon lol.

Ground Seal, also becomes a nice card draw engine once you have the combo out, if thats what you're looking for.


EDIT:
Just a silly idea, since our tutors also ditch our enchantments in the graveyard, and we replenish them back. Is it being too cute if we use something like:
Saproling Burst and Pandemonium and one shot them when we replenish? :)
Again just silly idea lol.

EDIT 2:
With so many Sylvan Library, wouldn't a splash of red be good for Words of War? Kills off opposing Teeg, and annoying pesky stuff. With Sylvan Library and Words of War on the field, you could easily create one sided board control versus so many annoying decks. Not bad of a clock either.

[mistercakes]

I think something that doesn't take up so many slots might a 1 or 2 of enchanted evening. It stops more or less all spells from being played. Just make sure you're ahead!

[HouseOfCards]

I'm currently working on my own version of G/W Opal/Wave. This is my list so far. I opted to go with a more traditional draw engine in the form of Argothian Enchantress as opposed to the Sylvan Library/Kruphix's engine as Argothian isn't affected by spell pierce/Decay and is immune to daze T2 if I have the T1 growth/sprawl. The lifeloss feels like it would be a little rough. It feels safer and provides sustained card draw throughout the game. I want to squeeze in a Mirri's guile or Sylvan Library somehow(pref guile to have the extra 1 drop) and possibly a second Carpet of flowers. I omitted Starfield of Nyx because it requires 5 enchantments in order to activate the combo. I went down to 3 Opalescence from 4 in favor of an E-Tutor in the event I need to find Wave more often to lock the board down. Trying out the wish package instead of the full GSZ package(3/2) as I think it's a safer T2(assuming wild growth/Utopia sprawl t1) vs decks packed with 4 daze and since it also can help me retrieve some answers/alternate wincon. I decided against the Doomwake Giant since it feels a little slow but i may throw it back in the board. I'm open to any questions/feedback. I'm not entirely sure if I'm leveraging the wish package properly. So far the deck feels like a control deck. Other cards that came to mind are Worship since i'm using Argothian as well as maybe tossing in 1 confinement just to have a safe card. The Leylines are maindeck to give a better shot vs all decks packing hand disruption these days(it seems like quite a few and it seems as though trashing the hand of any enchantress deck crushes it), improve the G1 storm matchup and to provide room for the wish package in the board. It also helps vs burn and provides acceleration for Sanctum assuming it's in my opening hand. I may go down to 3 in the maindeck since i'm only running 3 sanctums main. Still undecided. I'm not sure if I should squeeze in another banishing light or maybe a journey to nowhere.

Why did I choose Opal/Wave over the standard G/W enchantress confinement builds? Opal/Wave feels stronger vs a metagame filled with sneak & show, Czech pile, BUG/RUG delver and doesn't need the protection of sterling grove to keep confinement safe from abrupt decay.



// 60 Maindeck
// 5 Creature
3 Argothian Enchantress
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Dryad Arbor

// 30 Enchantment
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Parallax Wave
3 Opalescence
3 Elephant Grass
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Banishing Light
1 Carpet of Flowers

// 1 Instant
1 Enlightened Tutor

// 19 Land
4 Windswept Heath
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Plains
7 Forest
1 Bayou

// 5 Sorcery
3 Living Wish
2 Green Sun's Zenith


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 1 Argothian Enchantress (wish for it)
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (Wish for it-Alternate wincon, and SB vs sneak/show)
SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (Wish for it and SB vs All is Dust/Emrakul)

// 10 Enchantment
SB: 3 Drop of Honey (vs D&T)
SB: 1 Engineered Plague (vs Elves)
SB: 4 Rest in Peace (Vs anything that abuses yard) (I prefer this over Ground Seal as this is better vs Reanimator/Dredge)
SB: 1 Blind Obedience (vs sneak) (could also possibly be Authority of Consuls)
SB: 1 Rule of Law (vs storm/high tide/elves)

// 2 Land
SB: 1 Karakas (Wish for it)
SB: 1 Serra's Sanctum (Wish for it)

The engineered plague in the board is currently on the chopping block for a Dueling Grounds. If I made this change I would probably try and squeeze in a Gossamer Chains somewhere in the main to negate the single attacker and to have the potential of a repeatedly castable draw engine when paired with Argothian/Presence. I would also remove the Bayou maindeck. The Eidolon of blossoms in the main is on the chopping block as well. I may just swap it out for the Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guile. I also want to squeeze in a single Helm of Obedience in the board since i'm running 4 RIPS. In theory, the drop of honey are vs D&T as they'll be looking to vial out creatures while porting/wasting lands. I'm not sure it is fast enough. I've thought about maybe tossing in Tsabo's Web instead. Another card I am considering is 1 Tabernacle since it can be used vs D&T/Eldrazi and it can be wished for.

Other cards i'm not sure of if they may/may not be needed that I thought about are Nevermore and Runed Halo.

Again, I'm open to feedback about this build and welcome any suggestions. I'm open to adding other colors if it makes sense.

[Freggle]

I think something that doesn't take up so many slots might a 1 or 2 of enchanted evening. It stops more or less all spells from being played. Just make sure you're ahead!

Hey, mistercakes! I've been away for a bit. Currently the deck has o ring, p wave, and Opal. With that it nukes the board of all permanents.

Blink Oring with Exile trigger on the stack permanently removes the oringed permanent.

Online I've tested Living Plane to remove lands but it seems like win more.

[Freggle]

Never played this before, ran it through a league today and finished 3-2 despite some play mistakes. I could easily have finished 4-1; I just didnt realise I could O Ring a Pithing Needle on Parallax Wave to then exile the Sylvan Library (I had Opalescence in play so it was a creature). I O Ringed the Sylvan and died to not being able to exile stuff anymore with P Wave for the rest of the game (I was 1-0 and got him down to 2-3 life before dying to a Delver, so it definitely would have finished 2-0 in that case (and 4-1 total) instead of 1-2 and 3-2 overall.


Beat 4C Loam, 12-post Eldrazi, Eldrazi Aggro; lost (due to being unfamiliar to the deck as mentioned in the above scenario) to RUG Delver; and to BUG Delver due to just losing/being 1 turn too slow to play a 2nd Replenish in a row - first one got countered.


The deck was a lot stronger than I expected, I just played it as a gimmick/joke!

Glad you enjoyed it. It certainly packs a punch. Let me know if / how you tweak the list if your interest in it has continued.

[Freggle]

Is 4 sylvan library really better than 4 argothian enchantress in an enchantment based deck? I'm new to the legacy enchantress archetype so i'm looking to learn here.

Yes, because it can be found with Kruphix's Insight, and Commune With the Gods using less cards slots, and fueling absurd Replenishes

[Fjaulnir]

Commune with the Gods: is this actually better than something like Vessel of Nascency? Of course Vessel is a 3 mana investment, but I guess you mostly play Commune turn 2 only if you didn't have a sprawl turn 1 - otherwise there are actual 3 drops to cast normally.

In some fringe situations Commune may be better (digs 1 deeper for 1 cheaper) but Vessel being an Enchantment seems really nice with Replenish, Opalescence and Enchantress's Presence so the synergy seems worth the extra mana? Also it can get land like Serra's Sanctum which may be relevant.

[kombatkiwi]

Commune with the Gods: is this actually better than something like Vessel of Nascency? Of course Vessel is a 3 mana investment, but I guess you mostly play Commune turn 2 only if you didn't have a sprawl turn 1 - otherwise there are actual 3 drops to cast normally.

In some fringe situations Commune may be better (digs 1 deeper for 1 cheaper) but Vessel being an Enchantment seems really nice with Replenish, Opalescence and Enchantress's Presence so the synergy seems worth the extra mana? Also it can get land like Serra's Sanctum which may be relevant.

Also the fact it's an enchantment means it increases the number of hits for Kruphix's Insight.
It was dismissed on page 1 of the thread but I am also not convinced, Vessel seems much better to me...

[Fjaulnir]

Thanks for the input, haven't read everything in the thread yet so I'll look up those earlier references to the card :smile:


Another idea I had been toying with: 2 Lotus Petals? increases turn 2 3-drop, or turn 1 sylvan library/sphere of resistance etc

[Freggle]

Commune with the Gods: is this actually better than something like Vessel of Nascency? Of course Vessel is a 3 mana investment, but I guess you mostly play Commune turn 2 only if you didn't have a sprawl turn 1 - otherwise there are actual 3 drops to cast normally.

In some fringe situations Commune may be better (digs 1 deeper for 1 cheaper) but Vessel being an Enchantment seems really nice with Replenish, Opalescence and Enchantress's Presence so the synergy seems worth the extra mana? Also it can get land like Serra's Sanctum which may be relevant.

Although I will concede I did not test Vessel of Nascency heavily I don't think it's a strong fit for the deck. for a few reasons.


When I tested the card it competed with the Sterling Grove slot, and Sterling was clearly better. When compared to Commune with the Gods the 1 card difference is significant. When you start with you opening 7 there are 53 cards in the deck. Looking at 4 vs. 5 is a difference of 2.5% of the deck. That is significant, and the varince only gets larger the more cards you draw.
Similarly the 4 vs 5 on filling the yard you get 2.5% more in the yard with grows with each dig spell. True you will Replenish back Vessel, but it's not anything you want on the board most of the time. i.e. the 1/1 body, or the dig ability, you could / should have won the game by that time (thus the power of Sterling in this deck)
The card was terrible vs Chalice of the Void. There is no reason to tilt this deck to getting hosed by Chalice for 1 more than it does with the 8 growth spells. Especially because of the information above vs. the rate difference of 2 and 3 mana.


...that was just my brief findings though. Test it, and let us know what you find.

[Fjaulnir]

Haven't gotten around to testing it myself yet, I'm now mostly testing the Petal idea first and also a black splash.


Just played 2 leagues (10 rounds) with the GW version, and ended 2-3 twice. Lost 2x to RUG delver due to Mongoose and True-Name Nemesis having shroud. Such cards/matchups, as well as Elves/DnT maybe (revoker etc) makes me miss my Doomwake Giants/Engineered Plagues.

Lost to Storm 2x as well, altho partially 1 game due to a misplay - killed 1 too many goblins with Wave, leaving me with 0 counters after randomly topdecking an Opalescence. Could have machine gunned his PIF-2nd round of Goblins the turn after.

Still, apart from those 2 matchups I did well. Just random that 40% of my meta was either RUG or Storm.

[Fjaulnir]

I just finished a round with the black splash (3-2) but despite the black cards I lost twice from Death and Taxes due to Rishadan Port keeping me off mana.


I have now completed 25 rounds so time for some early data :tongue:

13-12 in matches = 52% matchwin
31-31 in games = 50% gamewin



matchups I faced more than once:

Storm 3-3 = 50% matchwin *could have been 4-2 if I hadnt messed up
Miracles 3-1 = 75% matchwin
RUG Delver 0-3 = 0% matchwin *could have been 1-2 if I hadn't messed up
Eldrazi 3-0 = 100% matchwin
Aggro Loam 2-0 = 100% matchwin
Death n Taxes 0-2 = 0% matchwin

so definitely some skewed matchups in either direction :tongue: it's definitely better against Storm post-SB (although I also cheesed 2 gamewins due to the 1-off maindeck Leyline, that was random/lucky...), and vs Eldrazi if you can get the combo online before they got All is Dust.

RUG Delver and DnT feel worse than with other versions of Enchantress though. And if they play True-Name you have basically no outs except trying to race them - but that'll be hard because RUG will get you down to 5 life before you can stabilise.

[Fjaulnir]

Made my first 5-0 with the deck, very excited for it to get published!! Although my previous 4 lists never got published so I don't get my hopes up too high either...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91b7-DzVxWs&feature=youtu.be

(I'm afk 2x during the league so if you watch, make sure to skip ahead 5-10 minutes during those breaks)

[mistercakes]

Congrats! Deck looks fun to play. Gotta scrounge up for some serra's sanctums.

Mind posting your list?

[kombatkiwi]

Congrats! Deck looks fun to play. Gotta scrounge up for some serra's sanctums.

Mind posting your list?

From the video:

1 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

2 Lotus Petal
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Commune with the Gods
1 Fertile Ground
4 Sylvan Library
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Kruphix's Insight
2 Cast Out
2 Replenish
4 Opalescence
4 Parallax Wave
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Doomwake Giant

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Engineered Plague
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Seeds of Innocence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sphere of Resistance

Edit
First time watching the deck in action.
Sylvan Library is a powerful card! It was interesting to see how good Library is as a core part of a deck's engine x4 and how Enchantress' Presence often seems underwhelming by comparison.
Also fun to see Cast Out beatdowns in the match vs Lands

I always felt like you wanted some way to mitigate the drawback of having multiple Sylvans. Abundance was suggested earlier in the thread, which seems at first like a kind of win-more silly suggestion but it is a ridiculous combo with Sylvan Library. Another benefit of Abundance is that it turns off Leovold by replacing all of the draws (a la Words of Wind) which seems relevant.

I don't know that Doomwake is needed when your combo kills all creatures anyway but it performed okay in that Delver game.

I wasn't impressed by Lotus Petal but you probably have more experience than me to decide whether that's a worthwhile card or not.
I think Sterling Grove is also worth playing because there were a couple of instances where shroud would have been good, and even searching for the Opal/Wave combo seems strong because it looks like that KOs a lot of different decks. Maybe this isn't quite true though because it seems shroud is needed the most when you are doing the combo and then you have to get rid of the Shroud so that Parallax Wave can target itself.

I think I might just cut Starfield for Ground Seal. It's randomly good against too many things and it also gives you the option to draw your whole deck if you combo off, and is nicer on the mana curve for helping out the Serra's Sanctum.

Maybe Courser of Kruphix could be okay somewhere? Good with stacking your top card with Sylvan Library, gain more life to draw more with Sylvan Library, more value with Replenish etc etc? Obviously the core of the deck seems to work well and you want to keep dodging removal so maybe it's not worth changing too much.

[Fjaulnir]

Abundance: not sure if another cmc 4 card isnt making it too clunky though.

Doomwake: I added it after suffering a bunch of losses vs Truename and DnT - at least we now have 1 maindeck out to TNN and Revoker+mom. Gives some extra reach vs elves too.
It also randomly killed a SnT player yesterday in a paper event (5-2 for 9th place on breakers:frown: ) after having my Opalescence countered :tongue:

Lotus Petal: I have been on 1 Chrome Mox instead of the Petal too after that 5-0. Had another 5-0 with the Mox on saturday night so if i'm lucky it gets published today.
I was mainly annoyed that playinng turn 1 Library off Petal meant you couldnt curve into 3-4 mana spells turn 2-3, so Chrome Mox has been better as ramp spell nr 10.

Starfield has been awesome as Opalescence 5 and Replenish 2.5, so I wouldnt cut that. I do consider Ground Seal in the SB tho because some people love bringing in Surgicals.


So I had another 5-0 with a changed list and 5-2ed a paper event with the same list, I'll post that when I get home - too much to type out on my phone.


Edit: E's Presence has been the most underwhelming card indeed. It's still been good in matchups like Miracles, but I sided out anywhere between 2-4 in a bunch of matchups yesterday: Infect, Eldrazi, probably SnT a few as well, basically any deck where you don't want to spend your turn 2 setting up a card that will maybe draw a card the turn after - in faster matchups you'd rather either drop a hateful card t2 or Kruphix into dig as deep as possible for a hateful card t3.

[Fjaulnir]

My second (unpublished) 5-0 list was:

4 Sylvan Library
1 Plains
5 Forest
1 Starfield of Nyx
4 Kruphix's Insight
2 Savannah
1 Doomwake Giant
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Fertile Ground
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Parallax Wave
4 Serra's Sanctum
2 Replenish
4 Opalescence
4 Wild Growth
1 Bayou
2 Cast Out
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chrome Mox
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Oblivion Ring

SB:
1 Engineered Plague
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Seeds of Innocence
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Sterling Grove
2 Leyline of Sanctity


Then the paper event where I finished 5-2 I had switched 1 maindeck leyline the board for the Sterling Grove as online meta is like 15% Storm whereas my paper meta is mostly fair.

Overall this list felt better than the previous one with Petal - I was still thinkin about Toxic Deluge in the board tho? Deals both with Elves and DnT both of which are annoying matchups - Elves by killing you too quickly before setting up P-Wave, and DnT due to a Mom-protected Revoker etc.

[kombatkiwi]

Overall this list felt better than the previous one with Petal - I was still thinkin about Toxic Deluge in the board tho? Deals both with Elves and DnT both of which are annoying matchups - Elves by killing you too quickly before setting up P-Wave, and DnT due to a Mom-protected Revoker etc.

Have you considered Drop of Honey/Porphyry Nodes

[Fjaulnir]

Wow that sounds awesome!! Didn't think of that yet.


Tbh I was vaguely aware of the cards, but due to the nonbo with Argothian Enchantress I had never considered them for traditional enchantress and kinda forgotten about them for this deck.

Due to the higher amount of T1 green sources Honey would be better I guess, but the price tag means I'll stick to Porphyry for now :smile:

[kombatkiwi]

Due to the higher amount of T1 green sources Honey would be better I guess, but the price tag means I'll stick to Porphyry for now :smile:
Yeah this is what I expected haha
Stupid reserved list

[Freggle]

Wow that sounds awesome!! Didn't think of that yet.


Tbh I was vaguely aware of the cards, but due to the nonbo with Argothian Enchantress I had never considered them for traditional enchantress and kinda forgotten about them for this deck.

Due to the higher amount of T1 green sources Honey would be better I guess, but the price tag means I'll stick to Porphyry for now :smile:


After some more play testing the deck wants 3 Porphyry Nodes in the SB more than the 3 Carpet of Flowers. This helps shore up the D&T MU.

Since this deck does not play Argothian Enchantress it is a near perfect fit. Tutorable, can be found by Kruphix's Insight.

You should really give it a go. That is where this deck wants to be.

[slayjay]

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/carlosgutierrez-12052017-rampant-enchantment/

Some more attention for the deck.

[kombatkiwi]

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/carlosgutierrez-12052017-rampant-enchantment/

Some more attention for the deck.

"You could even take things a step further and continuously flicker your own mana enchantments to put them on new lands and get extra uses out of them in a given turn."

uhhhh

[slayjay]

"You could even take things a step further and continuously flicker your own mana enchantments to put them on new lands and get extra uses out of them in a given turn."

uhhhh

Yeah.. there he made a big mistake :-D

Read that fucking card...

[Fjaulnir]

You should really give it a go. That is where this deck wants to be.

My bad. I assumed the decklist in the opening post was the most up-to-date one; I have now made myself read some more of the thread :wink: I see you also cut back to 3 Presence (and 2 Replenish) in later lists, that's also the decision I was closing in on.

Cutting the Fertile Ground is something I also often do post-board, but I have to admit it has been nice in the Blood Moon Stompy matchups - often managed to win due to being able to play all my spells through a chalice on 1 stopping Sprawl, and Moon stopping everything else (esp. due to my black splash with only 1 basic plains - I guess in the 2 colour build it's less necessary)

[Freggle]

My bad. I assumed the decklist in the opening post was the most up-to-date one; I have now made myself read some more of the thread :wink: I see you also cut back to 3 Presence (and 2 Replenish) in later lists, that's also the decision I was closing in on.

Cutting the Fertile Ground is something I also often do post-board, but I have to admit it has been nice in the Blood Moon Stompy matchups - often managed to win due to being able to play all my spells through a chalice on 1 stopping Sprawl, and Moon stopping everything else (esp. due to my black splash with only 1 basic plains - I guess in the 2 colour build it's less necessary)

No Sweat, Nice 5-0 BTW. As for the Fertile Ground it's not the strongest, but I see your point. Since your dig spells are green, and payoff spells are white it can be an issue. I have lost to not getting adequate white in time, though rare.

[Fjaulnir]

Played the Belgian Legacy Cup finals today with this list, made 10th place with 5-2.

2 Bayou
1 Plains
4 Forest
1 Starfield of Nyx
4 Kruphix's Insight
1 Doomwake Giant
4 Parallax Wave
1 Karakas
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Enchantress's Presence
4 Serra's Sanctum
3 Replenish
4 Opalescence
4 Wild Growth
2 Cast Out
1 Choke
2 Savannah
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Sylvan Library
1 Sterling Grove
1 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
1 Seeds of Innocence
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Choke
1 Dead Weight



That means I now have played a full 186 competitive matches with this deck (473 games), going 95-91 so my winrate is down to 51% from being closer to 58-60% in the beginning. Not counting Storm which is like 13% of my pairings on MTGO, it would be 88-76 (53,7%) which would be decent.


The decks I played against 4x or more:
Storm 7-15 (32%)
Miracles 10-7 (59%)
Grixis Delver 7-10 (41%)
Eldrazi 6-3 (67%) - 2 of the losses were vs Big Eldrazi with 4?x Ulamog though.
Sneaky Show 4-4 (50%)
Reanimator 3-5 (37,5%)
BUG Delver 1-7 (12,5%)
Dredge 5-1 (83%)
Stoneblade 4-2 (67%)
RUG Delver 2-3 (40%)
Lands 4-0 (100%)
DnT 0-4 (0%)

[Claymore1]

I just saw Hoogland playing with Wave enchantress, I recognize the petal and seeds of innocence, and right of the bat I suspect Fjaulnir as the donator, unless I'm mistaken. :laugh:

[Fjaulnir]

Mengucci also recorded with it apparently but I haven't gotten around to watching either. I was not the donator btw - I would have done so though.


I heard Mengucci butchered it though / didn't understand the combo at all, so I hope Jeff did a better job at it :smile:

[slayjay]

Played my first paper tournament yesterday with this deck and ended up very unlucky second.


Unfortunately, the deck was not that unknown as some days before because of menguccis article. Bad timing :D


Some short notes:

Played this list:


1 Bayou
6 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs


2 Doomwake Giant
4 Kruphix's Insight
2 Replenish
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sylvan Library


2 Cast Out
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Opalescence
4 Parallax Wave
1 Starfield of Nyx


1 Fertile Ground
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth



Sideboard


1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Seal of Primordium
3 Drop of Honey
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void


After the event, I definitely would swap a land for another white source, a Scrubland maybe. Was cutted of white and black some times. And an Aegis of the Gods maindeck, maybe instead of second Giant. Storm typically cannot beat turn 2 Aegis maindeck (2 tutors to get them).


Round 1: 4c Aggro Loam (with Knights)


Deck showed directly what it does a lot: Bad hands and a lot of mulligans. Had to got to 5, opponent started with turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 2 Dark Confidant, nothing to do for me…Boarded Leylines against Knight of the Reliquiary, but the graveyard is not the main problem…it is just important to keep Chalice away, and even Chalice does not hurt that much like in other Enchantress builds. Just keep creatures under control, and that is what the deck does best. Won the other two games with ease.

1-0, 2:1


Round 2: Death and Taxes


Kept a greedy one-lander (Forest and Wild Growth plus Sylvan Library), he started with Mother of Runes, Rishadan Port, Thalia, my Wasteland-proofed Forest did nothing out of become tapped in my upkeep…this was too risky…but against the most other decks the hand was keepable.


After sideboarding the Drop of Honey really shined, opponent was really desperated.

2-0, 4:2


Round 3: Amadeus with Aggro Mud / +1/+1 Counters (not really sure about the name, pretty much the same deck like in Vintage: Chalices, Thorns, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer, Lodestone Golem, Walking Ballista etc.)


Amadeus is a friend of mine, we played against each other a lot in the last years, mainly vintage. He is usually on something colorless, mostly rogue, Eldrazi, Chalice decks. And with a lot of success.


Lost my third die roll this day, he started with turn 1 Thorn, turn 2 Lodestone Golem, I lost without resolving a spell after mulligan to 5...


In the other two games Drop of Honey really shined again, the MVP card of this evening. Game three was quite tight, me winning on two life.


3-0, 6:3

Round 4 and last round: Dark Maverick


This could be quite hard to win. Maindeck Gaddock Teeg, Quasali Pridemage, Knight of Reliquary, Wasteland, Ghostquarter, Chalices, Green Zenith to search this stuff…


Lost my 4th die roll again…so 0-4 in die rolls this day…


Mull to 5 first game, too far ahead, he was too fast…

Game 2 was back and forth with a better ending for me.

Game 3 we both mulled to 5, long stally game, he had a lot of pressure, I had Opalessence, but my second white mana get wasted, and was unable to find second white in 3 turns with Sylvan Library and Presence and a lot card draw on the board…quite bad und unlucky, but this is magic.


3-1, 7:5

This was good enough for second place and a Vendillion Clique.


Got a lot of positive feedback for the deck and games :-) Really like the deck at the moment, every fair creature based deck has a hard stand against it.

[Freggle]

Alright, I have some holiday time coming up, and I may be tempted to really test this deck to push this concept.

Questions for the Development team:

• Does the deck need both Doomwake Giant (with the requisite 3rd color), and Drop of Honey or Porphyry Nodes ?

My inclination is to apply K.I.S.S. and eliminate the 3rd color to mitigate meta issues (Wateland, Port) at a lower curve. Is there a reason not to pursue this through your testing?

• If a 3rd color is needed should the deck explore the use of Prismatic Omen, or Hall of Gemstone to help with enchantment count, and color issues?

Hall of Gemstone could hose (to a degree) combo, or BGx “Leo” (or other multi colored) decks while coloring us up. It’s mitigated on our end through the judicious use of Utopia Sprawl In addition the 3/3 body Hall would give us under Opalescence could be quite nice


• Does the deck need more tutors (at card disadvantage) or more card filter / “draw” (place in hand) abilities?

I have a tendency to prefer card filtering as a hedge to counter magic (out threat their counters), however if you play with Sterling Grove, or Enlightened Tutor it could help with this A+B combo deck more. In addition, you do have the ability to main deck bullets to hedge tricky MU’s i.e. Drop of Honey vs. D&T, or Aegis of the Gods vs Storm, Hall vs. Multi color .dek…

• Is Cast Out (and it’s higher casting cost / cycling ability) really better in this deck than more Oblivion Rings?

Unless we are leaning on Replenish I’m not sure how this could be true. As Cast Out does not interact in the same way as Oblivion Ring does with the combo on the board.

• Should there be an alt kill?

My findings are no, but if I HAD to explore one I’d consider a red splash for Words of War, as we would then have a targetable kill, that replaces draws with Sylvan Library, and could machine gun things like Revoker, Leo, Thalia, Teeg… …or at worst skip a draw to get it done to make the comb / deck work again.

Nice finishes everyone, looking forward to the comments.

[Fjaulnir]

After the event, I definitely would swap a land for another white source, a Scrubland maybe. Was cutted of white and black some times. And an Aegis of the Gods maindeck, maybe instead of second Giant. Storm typically cannot beat turn 2 Aegis maindeck (2 tutors to get them).

That's actually a really good idea! I've been unsure about the maindeck white Leyline so that would mitigate some of its awkwardness.
Might also help beat Echoing Truth on a Leyline postboard :tongue:



• Does the deck need both Doomwake Giant (with the requisite 3rd color), and Drop of Honey or Porphyry Nodes ?

My experience is it's needed at least somewhere in the 75, I have lost to many a True-Name that the combo just couldn't interact with or that I couldn't race with my 4/4s at that point of the game.
It's also one of the few ways to interact with a Mother of Runes protected Phyrexian Revoker.

Splash damage vs other cards (Young Peezy etc) is just a nice bonus.


I have randomly won off it after they surgicaled my combo pieces but I guess that's just a fringe situation. It has also once won me a match vs Nic Fit where they had 2x Carnage Tyrant that I could neither interact with nor race as I was at 4 life or something like that. I just used Opal-Wave to infinitely flicker my Doomwake and give them -10000/-10000 :tongue:


I like a 3rd colour anyway because
a) I like to be able to hardcast my Leyline of the Voids (the original build didn't have any GY hate but that just felt miserable whenever playing against any GY based deck
b) it adds the option of Engineered Plague which is another way to slow down Death n Taxes and Elves just enough to have a chance.


EDIT: Porphyry almost never did anything for me. Granted I never got to test it vs Elves or DnT, so I just could side it in vs Delver (the most popular deck on MTGO) and there it won me 1 close game but the other 3-4 games that I resolved it it was
a- too slow (taking a turn to kill something)
and/or b- you don't always have the choice, especially when they play Pyromancer.

Small sample size so not scientific :tongue: . For my last few matches with the deck I put a Dead Weight in the SB and that actually felt better the 1 time I got to play it - got to choose which creature to kill despite them having a clogged board, it kills immediately, and it's even better with Replenish and Starfield as it takes less time to go back to the GY.



• If a 3rd color is needed should the deck explore the use of Prismatic Omen, or Hall of Gemstone to help with enchantment count, and color issues?

Hall of Gemstone could hose (to a degree) combo, or BGx “Leo” (or other multi colored) decks while coloring us up. It’s mitigated on our end through the judicious use of Utopia Sprawl In addition the 3/3 body Hall would give us under Opalescence could be quite nice

I haven't tested any of these, and on the one hand cards that don't ramp but just color fix (cfr Abundant Growth) feel like they're not worth it in this deck.

On the other hand, I feel Hall of Gemstone has the most potential here because at least it also hoses your opponents potentially.



• Does the deck need more tutors (at card disadvantage) or more card filter / “draw” (place in hand) abilities?

I have a tendency to prefer card filtering as a hedge to counter magic (out threat their counters), however if you play with Sterling Grove, or Enlightened Tutor it could help with this A+B combo deck more. In addition, you do have the ability to main deck bullets to hedge tricky MU’s i.e. Drop of Honey vs. D&T, or Aegis of the Gods vs Storm, Hall vs. Multi color .dek…

I have gone back and forth on playing the tutor effects, I love that drawing E Tutor off your draw step lets you tutor before Sylvan trigger resolves, and lets you pay 4 for that card (as it will be the 2nd card drawn that turn - can't not pay life though as you can't put the E Tutor back anymore). And E Tutor for Library is also an okay start if you got nothing else going on occasionally.
But they have also equally often felt mediocre. So for now I have stayed on a middle ground and run only a few of them.



• Is Cast Out (and it’s higher casting cost / cycling ability) really better in this deck than more Oblivion Rings?

Unless we are leaning on Replenish I’m not sure how this could be true. As Cast Out does not interact in the same way as Oblivion Ring does with the combo on the board.

In my experience, O Ring is definitely necessary. Cast Out wouldn't replace the O Ring slot but another slot (at least it did when I put them in originally).
Without O Ring you just die to a resolved Teeg (unless you can find your 1-off Karakas or so...)

Cast Out has been great though in some situations:
-off Replenish
-vs Lands: they make Marit Lage EOT, it has happened more than a few times that I could steal wins if I didn't have Wave yet by flashing it in
-vs Rishadan Port trying to tap down your Serra's Sanctum
-with Sylvan Library in play: cycle in your upkeep or your draw step (can even do that if it's the first card drawn off Library if you haven't taken the other 2 cards yet) to dig 1 deeper and have more options to put back.

IMPORTANT NOTE FOR ANYONE PLAYING THE DECK: the Cast Out interaction and the E Tutor interaction when topdecked off Sylvan Library, mean that you need to resolve your Sylvan Library properly whenever playing this deck!!! I can't stress this more. Most people seem to think Sylvan Library is a "look at top 3" effect but in this deck it is often enough to be relevant NOT. You draw 1 card keeping it aside, then if you dont have E Tutor or Cast Out in hand (including the 1 new card) draw 2 more and decide whether to put 2 back.
Like when you're playing Miracles you can't just put cards into your hand in your draw step without looking and thinking first.

This is maybe only 1-2% of playing your games at most, depending on your build - but when playing fringe rogue decks you can't afford to lose 1-2% more than necessary if you want to have any decent success :smile:



• Should there be an alt kill?

My findings are no, but if I HAD to explore one I’d consider a red splash for Words of War, as we would then have a targetable kill, that replaces draws with Sylvan Library, and could machine gun things like Revoker, Leo, Thalia, Teeg… …or at worst skip a draw to get it done to make the comb / deck work again.

Well, if you don't count Doomwake I think the deck doesn't *need* one indeed. Helm of Obedience to complement my Leylines in the SB almost never worked - it was just as easy if not easier/faster to Opalescence and kill them with 4/4 Leylines as it was to dig for that 1 Helm that couldn't get Kruphixed etc.

On the other hand: I also have been thinking about the Machine Gun combo with this deck, just haven't gotten around to it yet*. Adding red means most likely cutting black so losing Doomwake / outs to TNN, but options like Blood Moon vs some decks might be worth it (to be fair Blood Moon doesn't change most bad matchups of the deck though, only ones that are already okay to super favoured?)


*I did not renew my MTGO rental subscription so unfortunately I won't be able to grind games with that version to get a quick feel for it - will have to be done the slow old fashioned way if ever...

[mistercakes]

What in the world is mtgo rental

[Fjaulnir]

I didn't own any of the decks I played, I paid a monthly fee to a dealer (Manatraders) to rent any decks I want from their bots. Not cheap but if you want to swap between 3-4 decks each week like me it's definitely better than having to buy all of these decks completely.

[Freggle]

Played a lot of matches today an yesterday. One thin I have learned is the deck likes Lotus Cobra.

Cobra nets 3 mana on a fetch (2 landfalls and the land) and makes the deck more explosive.

Here is where I'm currently at:

Main:
4 Parallax Wave
2 Ground Seal
4 Opalescence
4 Windswept Heath
2 Commune with the Gods
4 Kruphix's Insight
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Savannah
3 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
6 Forest
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Starfield of Nyx
4 Sylvan Library
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Replenish
4 Lotus Cobra

Side:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Banishing Light
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Swords to Plowshares

[Claymore1]

Seeing as this deck's main cards are 4cc, the removals I think should be at 3cc, that being O-Ring or Banishing Light.
This is to stop DnT's and Maverick's Gaddok Teeg / Sanctum Prelate from stopping you guys.

In my GWr Enchantress however, I actually use Ixalan's Binding over Cast Out.
The instant speed hasn't really mattered for me, more than making the opponent draw dead cards, which I see as free turns for us.
Usually after playing the game with my opponent, I always ask if I can see whats in their hand. Very frequently, they have extra / multiple copies of what was exiled by Ixalan's Binding.
Im pretty sure it may be pretty tilting for the opponent as well when they brainstorm away their copies, fetch, and just to draw that copy later. :tongue:


I have a question though, seeing at this deck runs a MUCH heavier count of Sylvan Library, compared to regular enchantress (sometimes enchantress doesnt even run it), wouldn't Words of War shine in the deck?
If the entire wave combo cannot be assembled, turning our Sylvan Library as our win condition seems pretty good, and can interact with opponent's creatures a lot faster.
Red splash also gives access to things like: Blood Moon, Seal of Fire (Elves, Infect, DnT, Delvers), or Pyrostatic Pillar vs Storm Based decks.

[Freggle]

So, played a lot more matches. I'm liking Lotus Cobra as a blocker and ramper. It does double duty, it buys us time blocking or warding off would be attackers, or eating removal thus eating opponents mana while ramping / coloring up our mana.

Mirri's Guile replaced Sterling Grove as a way to speed up the deck and make it more resilient to goodstuff.dek It does a good job of dialing up the right card faster than Sylvan, and makes for less mulligans as you can keep a 1 lander and guile.

Since we were controlling are draw so much I thought I'd try Courser of Kruphix. Since many time it would act as a life gaining / blocking howling mine as we build to our combo. The results are pretty good!

Makes triggering Cobra easier, and if you want a land and a card its not at the expense of 4 life via sylvan, its + life.

With the deck now being able to throw must counter spells, spell after spell the reliance on Replenish has been less and less, and is cut to 1 may be cut all together to move into doomwake (however I have found with multiple Courser's you can life race TNN)

Here's where I'm at. I may also cut a Sylvan or 2 for Exploration or find room for a few Sterling Groves.

Main:

The Combo:
4 Parallax Wave
4 Opalescence
1 Starfield of Nyx

The Dig
4 Sylvan Library
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Kruphix's Insight
4 Courser of Kruphix

The Ramp
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Lotus Cobra

The Stall
4 Oblivion Ring

The Inevitable
1 Replenish

Mana
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Serra's Sanctum
6 Forest
1 Savannah
3 Plains

Side
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Banishing Light
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Swords to Plowshares

[oarsman]

I have been following along the two enchantress threads recently. Freggle, are you the only one not playing Enchantress's Presence? That seems like a pretty massive divergence, and in the pages I read there wasn't any comment about it. Can you summarize your thoughts on why it isn't necessary. Courser/cobra are nice that they impact the board, but giving up that much draw and turning on removal seems questionable.

[Freggle]

I have been following along the two enchantress threads recently. Freggle, are you the only one not playing Enchantress's Presence? That seems like a pretty massive divergence, and in the pages I read there wasn't any comment about it. Can you summarize your thoughts on why it isn't necessary. Courser/cobra are nice that they impact the board, but giving up that much draw and turning on removal seems questionable.

oarsman, first off fan of your stream, and you.

i'll jot this out quickly prior to going to my Christmas party and follow-up with any more detail later.

I think I may be the only one testing a non-presence list. This was a recent development from this weekend. Previous to that though I had been running lists that vary from 2-3. It may be incorrect to cut all to them but the list wants no more than 3.

As a side note in developing many enchantress lists I have also found that enchantress decks likes a number of cards to be at a count of 3. This give you steady access to the card due to the excessive draws / looks at but leave a slot to bring in (or multiple slots if you drop all non-essential cards to 3) to add more dimension to the game plan.

Enchantress's Presence was cut because the overall curve of the deck was too high for it to be effective. This list given the curve does not play like GW or UG Enchantress because we do not have the mana to play back to back 4 drops. in the early decisive turns. Since the draw was not effective, and the tempo was slow (drop presence, then next turn cast 4 drop for a card) I opted to test Mirri's Guile in the slot to get more "card selection" as opposed to card draw. This allows the deck to see more cards in the early decisive turns, mulligan less.

Since the deck runs a high number of fetches and "dig spells" seeing a fresh 3 is relatively trivial. IMHO Mirri's greatly increases the play-ability of the deck. Was Pressence the correct cut. Only more testing will tell.

As for the creature Lotus Cobra was a test to work around the strange mana requirements for the deck. As in you want Green mana T1, but access to WW on Turn 3 or 4. that's a tall order for any deck. Cobra significantly increased the odds of achieving that. Courser was a test to thin, as we stacked the deck as a source of card advantage since we lost presence, and work on another issue that we are just sitting ducks till we combo.

In testing this works well, but this is by no means a complete list. Got to go for now.

Edit:

Best case scenario for opening hands with Enchantress’s Presence & Mirri’s Guile. Note that there are other cards you would prioritize over Guile or Presence should you draw those instead, but if you had to rely on the cards on their own merit which is statically better.

Enchantress’s Presence
The best hand with current lists with an Enchantress’s Presence opener:

Presence
:g: Land or fetch
Another land
3 x Wild Growth or Sprawl for :g: (note you normally don’t want to sprawl for green)

Hypergeometric probability of this hand 0.5%
Cards seen / Drawn with no disruption, and no mull by turn 3: Opening 7 + 4-6 (blind draw off of Presence pending)

Mana used on drawing / looking: ALL

Mirri’s Guile
The best hand for Mirri’s Opener:

Mirri’s
:g: Land or fetch
2X Fetch
3X Other business

Hypergeometric probability of this hand 9.8% (could be made better by dropping the 3rd plains for a Fetch, which it should be then would be 10.6%, with plains/ fetch swap and 4th Guile added 13.4%)
Cards seen / Drawn with no disruption, and no mull by turn 3: Opening 7 + 6-12 depending on the other business spells.

Mana used on Drawing / Looking: :g: to :g::g::2: (if Guile and Kruphix’s Insight T3)

More description on the mana issue

The deck wants a T1 basic forest to drop a Wild Growth or a Utopia Sprawl on to ramp into other business. Basic Forrest is to play around the 2 for one of Wasteland

Therefore, the mana base is heavily green, and currently reliant on Utopia Sprawl, Serra’s Sanctum, & fetches to get to :w::w:T3 / T4. This further puts restrictions on keep able hands.

Ways to pull pressure of the perfect mana draw:

Adopt Mirri’s Guile to see more cards to find the right mix early, and increase the T1 plays, as well as reduce mulligans.

Play Lotus Cobra the card colors us up and play right into the Mirri’s Guile fetch plan.

Test Prismatic Omen this card still blanks creature removal, but gets our basic forests to produce :W:

Test Hall of Gemstone in theory this card can hose multi colored decks, but it would also put pressure on ours to stay green and color up off of this, as there is :g::g: in the casting cost.

Abandon the Sanctum, Growth ramp plan and adopt another ramp plan, like Farseek, This could allow us to play more non basics, but that could be a trap as we still need to hit 4 mana reliably and this is Legacy.

[Fjaulnir]

I have been following along the two enchantress threads recently. Freggle, are you the only one not playing Enchantress's Presence? That seems like a pretty massive divergence, and in the pages I read there wasn't any comment about it. Can you summarize your thoughts on why it isn't necessary. Courser/cobra are nice that they impact the board, but giving up that much draw and turning on removal seems questionable.


Hi Joe,

super cool!! I had never expected you to be into the archetype. Welcome welcome.


By the 2 threads I assume you mean regular GW Enchantress with Solitary Confinement and either Helm-Rip or Sigil of the Empty Throne/Emrakul as wincons, and this one?

Freggle already answered your questions so I'll just sales pitch you on the 3rd version of Enchantress then, UG with Words of Wind (renewed discussion starting at page 21 around here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25035-Deck-U-G-Enchantress/page21&p=1023242#post1023242). It started with this (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16751&d=303595&f=LE) list and that was then "refined" by me to something like this (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17411&d=307820&f=LE) (has 1 unpublished MTGO 5-0 with it as well, with an Abrupt Decay over the 2nd Jace in the SB).

Just like Opal-Wave it has a lot of cool and unusual interactions that 'traditional' enchantress doesn't, it may be tedious on MTGO to go infinite (Abundant Growth + 1 Enchantress or 1 mana enchantment + 2 Enchantresses is infinite with Words of Wind and Candelabra but requires *many* clicks) but they're both strong against different matchups so it would be a metagame choice (or one of personal preference);

F.ex. Opal-Wave is very favored against Chalice decks like Eldrazi but folds to Death n Taxes more, UG Enchantress is stronger vs Grixis Delver and Death n Taxes as it's not on the CMC 4 plan but weaker against Chalice (mostly if combined with a fast clock - so esp. Eldrazi. Moon Stompy is usually okay for both decks); Opal-Wave also manages to not *completely* lose to Storm (32%) as UG does (10%) but for me UG has a slightly higher win % against the MTGO field overall (53% in 144 matches for UG vs 51% in 186 matches for Opal-Wave with black splash).

[Freggle]

Thinking about Joe’s comment more over the holiday break, and pondering the Enchantress rule of 3 (non-essential “engine cards” tend to want to statistically want to be at a 3 count) I decided to reduce the durdle and work towards designing a statistically stable list.

This was the same method used when the dev. Team was tuning the GW Helm deck. “Believe in the numbers, and the deck will run.”
So, the goal was to focus the deck on the most cards seen for the lowest mana while still trying to address the mana issue.

This means removing Courser of Kruphix and increasing the shuffles some other more mana efficient way. (1 more fetch, and 2 Enlightened Tutor)

In addition, I took all non-essential cards and reduced them to a count of 3. This freed up some slots to “borrow” (ahem, steal) from this old non-enchantment list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24374-Developmental-Enchantment-Stompy&highlight=opalescence) and add in Rule of Law.

In the development of GW Helm there was a break through in playing Suppression Field in that we could build around the card to gain advantage, whereas most decks do not. That static edge bought us time. …just enough time to get the engine online and be more competitive.

Since this deck now relies on “looks” Mirri’s Guile, or static draw triggers Sylvan Library, and our combo is triggers we are heavily advantaged while playing under Rule of Law. (this card makes cantrips look silly)

I tested the list tonight on MTGO tournament practice. In a very small sample set it went 6-0 beating Turbo lands, Grixis Delver, 2x Nic Fit, some UG combo deck, and BR Reanimator. In all matchups the Rule of Law proved to be stellar, stopping combo shenanigans after reanimating Grizzy, or cabal Therapy, but not being able to flash back, cantrip, and that’s the turn…

Here is list I’m tuning as it stands now:

Main:

The Combo
4 Parallax Wave
4 Opalescence
1 Starfield of Nyx - Alt win 1

The Dig
4 Kruphix's Insight
3 Sylvan Library
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Enlightened Tutor

The Ramp
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Lotus Cobra - Alt Win 2

The Stall / Clean-up
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Rule of Law

The Inevitability
1 Replenish

The Mana
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
4 Serra's Sanctum
6 Forest
2 Plains
2 Wooded Foothills

The Board
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Banishing Light
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Swords to Plowshares

Board still in question, Lotus Cobra may not be needed (now that the list is more measured [1 spell a turn]), but sure does feel good, and has fixed in some spots. Still needs tuning.




F.ex. Opal-Wave is very favored against Chalice decks like Eldrazi but folds to Death n Taxes more, UG Enchantress is stronger vs Grixis Delver and Death n Taxes as it's not on the CMC 4 plan but weaker against Chalice (mostly if combined with a fast clock - so esp. Eldrazi. Moon Stompy is usually okay for both decks); Opal-Wave also manages to not *completely* lose to Storm (32%) as UG does (10%) but for me UG has a slightly higher win % against the MTGO field overall (53% in 144 matches for UG vs 51% in 186 matches for Opal-Wave with black splash).

D&T is greatly helped by Lotus Cobra (Flickerwisp on enchanted lands is no longer a blow out), Mirri's Guile to find the right hate, and Swords to Plowshares out of the board. This latest version does not roll over to D&T anymore. Played them a few times yesterday, it's only a real challenge when Mom is online and Revoker is on Parallax Wave, but we can still manage to cobble together the right cards to break through that too. Porphyry Nodes was amazing vs them, but ATM that has been cut. the board will likely get retooled though as Rule of Law shores up combo in the main pretty decently. I do have to try your version of UG though.

[slayjay]

Some questions to you all. I am still not sure about these things...some things were discussed before, some I want to clarify:

Enlightened Tutor vs Sterling Grove:

Tutor: Faster, instant. My main idea was to play 2 -3 Tutors to find a one maindeck Aegis of the Gods (or maybe Rule of Law) against storm. But I think this plan will not work. When would you dig for Aegis with Tutor? In paper you usually do not know what the opponent is on. Opp starts with Probe, Therapy. Grixis Delver or Storm? Against Grixis fetching Aegis is not pretty strong...and Aegis has to come on board at the first 2-3 turns against storm to be relevant. So I think this maindeck slot is not worth it. So loose to storm game 1 and hope the best for the other 2 games...instead I am at 2 maindeck Sterling Grove at the moment, because it protect all our stuff and can be a Tutor when needed. I know it can make Wave / Opal more complicated, but this is fine for me. And Grove is fetched by Insight and comes back with replenish and is good with Opal and Presence. So overall more relevant for this deck.
Thoughts?

Oblivion Ring vs Cast Out:

I was on the 2/ 2 split all the time. But like said before, Cast Out does not interact with Wave/Opal the way we want. Gaddock Teeg and overall a turn later for Cast Out makes the card draw of cycling for me bad. I would go to 4 O-Rings at the moment. Reanimate cycled Cast Outs by Replenish is a situation that came up to less for me.

[Fjaulnir]

Re Freggle's new list: that looks sweet and I'll have to try it out!

Didn't you have any problems with True Name Nemesis?

[Freggle]

Some questions to you all. I am still not sure about these things...some things were discussed before, some I want to clarify:

Enlightened Tutor vs Sterling Grove:

Slayjay, the answer is dependent on the rest of the list and the overall gameplan. If your closer to traditional Enchantress (playing Enchantress’s Presence) then Sterling Grove is likely the better choice. That is the list I last saw you post.

If you’re playing the Mirri’s Guile / Rule of Law version posted last night (less Enchantress’s Presence), then Enlightened Tutor is likely better because it’s instant speed (can be played on your opponent’s turn)
Sterling Grove avoiding Chalice on 1 though is something to keep in the back of our minds.




Oblivion Ring vs Cast Out:

Cast Out is the complete wrong card because it cannot remove a Gaddock Teeg. Tricks with the cycling ability and Replenish is no reason to play an otherwise lesser card that does not interact well with the combo IMHO.


Didn't you have any problems with True Name Nemesis?

I did not run into TNN last night with the new list, but I suspect I would should TNN arrive, and I’m not ready to race.

Last night I was thinking about this as well to a degree. Since the latest list I posted is resilient and playable, yet isn’t reliant on drawing a bunch of cards like traditional Enchantress it opens up new avenues of disruption like Rule of Law main. Since the Enchantment count isn’t critical with the exception of Kruphix’s Insight you don’t have to limit the design space to just / mostly enchantments like you do in traditional Enchantress. Therefore, we could play somewhere in the 75 Terminus. Since we now are controlling our draw fairly well, and it’s pretty likely we can miracle it with some regularity. Even if we don’t it’s not impossible (some games fairly trivial) for us to hit 6 mana to hard cast it should it find it’s way into our hand.

I think the list may want 2-3. This could possibly be the Lotus Cobra slots in the list above. It would essentially function as Elephant Grass in traditional Enchantress, but tilt tougher MUs like Grixis, or D&T in our favor as we could wipe the board of their nonsense as opposed to try and deal with it in a targeted manner.

This would also be good against Progenitus out of elves a way in which I believe they would board given our Rule of Law.

Something to think about / test…

I’m already back to work, so my testing will be now slowed a bit.

[Claymore1]

lol, Fjaulnir's deck list got featured in MTGgoldfish's "Instant deck tech", apparently the deck is called, Opal Essence Reanimator. :laugh:

[Freggle]

lol, Fjaulnir's deck list got featured in MTGgoldfish's "Instant deck tech", apparently the deck is called, Opal Essence Reanimator. :laugh:

Hey, Claymore. Thanks for the heads-up. Here is the link. (www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-opalescence-reanimator-legacy)

[Freggle]

Got home from work and tested Terminus a bit. I think we're on to something here.

Again MTGO Tournament Practice, will move up to League once the sideboard is worked out.

First 5 matches with Terminus:

Belcher 2-0 – Rule of Law G1 got there / Sphere of Resistance Game 2

Turbo Depths 2-1 - Lost Game 1 / Game 2 parallax wave with Swords back-up / G3 See Game 2

Black Bitterblossom Deck 2-0 - Combo Got there both games

Belcher 1-2 I Terminus-ed Goblins! – Game 1 I got a turn on the draw, and had Rule of Law. I ramped with a Sprawl, but op went off t2 :( - Game 2 Sphere of Resistance / Terminus / Leyline of Sanctity - Game 3 could not find Leyline and got belched with 3 cards in hand, but I had a turn on the draw again, and played Guile. After loosing I looked at the top 3. If it was gobos again I did have Terminus in the top 3 to clear them, and a Sphere in hand. It wasn't I lost.

4 color Stoneblade 2-0 – Terminus-ed True Name Nemesis, worked like a charm both games.

Overall early signs show that this version is showing great potential. I think we should explore Mindbreak Trap in the board as a card to get us to Sphere or Resistance of Rule of Law.

I'll try and test more later, but for now. Life stuff.

Main:

The Combo
4 Parallax Wave
4 Opalescence
1 Starfield of Nyx - Alt win 1

The Dig
4 Kruphix's Insight
3 Sylvan Library
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Enlightened Tutor

The Ramp
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl


The Stall / Clean-up
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Rule of Law
3 Terminus

The Inevitability
1 Replenish

The Mana
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
4 Serra's Sanctum
6 Forest
2 Plains
2 Wooded Foothills

The Board
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Banishing Light
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Swords to Plowshares

[Odd Mutation]

Hi all,

Very interesting deck.

Why not Rest in Peace instead of Faery Macabre? Didn't read the whole thread (just first few and last pages), so maybe this has already been answered... Replenish is not your most important card nowadays apparantly so it might be something that was discarded back then but may earn a slot now?

Good luck with the deck, I will be trying it. Just ordered the cards I missed.

Loving the Terminus tech! It's such a powerful card. Remember Miracles? Made the deck roll vs more than half the field. If you have enough shuffles and with the Guiles and Libraries, it could be a hoser!

Do you consider the Enlightened Tutors to be essential? Those Mirage tutors need to be game changers since you give up a draw.

Sorry for the questions while not having tested the deck. I don't get many opportunities lately to play...

Robrecht

[slayjay]

I really REALLY like Rule of Law main. I think we board it out against grixis delver? Too much counterspells...

[Claymore1]

Why not Rest in Peace instead of Faery Macabre? Didn't read the whole thread (just first few and last pages), so maybe this has already been answered... Replenish is not your most important card nowadays apparantly so it might be something that was discarded back then but may earn a slot now?

Hello, welcome to the GW Opal-Wave, I do not have much experience piloting the deck as I am more of a Enchantress player. But I do assemble it back from time to time. However, with experiences with both decks. Rest in Peace will also eat your own graveyard, since you're also tossing cards away due to commune with the gods or kruphix insight. If its for sideboarding, I find the card to be too slow. The decks that you would bring it on, often can win before the card even comes down, such as dredge or reanimator. Or can be easily interacted with, quickly, and cheaply, either through turn 1 discard, countermagic, or removal. That is why the pilots for this deck prefers something that either comes out fast, or is hard to interact with.


Got home from work and tested Terminus a bit. I think we're on to something here.

Hello Freggle, is this simply to buy you time to assemble your pieces? if so, since the deck tends to dig deep and toss things to the graveyard. Wouldn't Moment's Peace fit that category better? You'll toss it away while you commune or kruphix, it'll sit there in the yard (or even accumulate there) for use at your own pace. Also, with this "toss things to the yard" in mind, I noticed that you pilots, based on your conversations, seem to be struggling with W mana production. Would Riftstone Portal as a 1-off be too cute?

[Freggle]

Why not Rest in Peace instead of Faery Macabre? Didn't read the whole thread (just first few and last pages), so maybe this has already been answered... Replenish is not your most important card nowadays apparently so it might be something that was discarded back then but may earn a slot now?

The timing and that it is uncounterable and free. It also feels great to get him out for free blanking your opponent with Exhume, but that interaction is nothing to write home about.

RIP is superior in the long game, but in the long game we have reanimated creatures covered with STP, and Parallax Wave / Terminus less Iona, Shield of Emeria.

I have to find the best way to get a Karakas back in the list. It’s either cutting a fetch, or Sideboard Not sure yet. For card slots it’s cutting a fetch, but I don’t want to get wreaked by Wasteland as we do need to hit 4 mana reliably.

Side note: I am considering a Tutor able lands SB suite with Crop Rotation ( a green tutor [see Iona]) obviously for Karakas and Bojuka Bog to do funky things at instant speed and get more shuffles for the deck. It wouldn’t be half bad to rotate into Serra’s Sanctum from time to time as well.


Good luck with the deck, I will be trying it. Just ordered the cards I missed.

Welcome aboard. Keeps us posted on your thoughts.


Loving the Terminus tech! It's such a powerful card. Remember Miracles? Made the deck roll vs more than half the field. If you have enough shuffles and with the Guiles and Libraries, it could be a hoser!

At this point I truly think it’s a game changer for the deck. Yes the deck needs mana, but instead of trying to ramp into 4 mana with Lotus Cobra the deck could just “stall” and
“buy time” with Terminus an extremely powerful card. I played 5 matches with it, and Miracle-d it at least 4 times drawing it once. In combo with Rule of Law it can slow the game to a crawl and get us to the late game where we are HEAVILY favored. It also fixes the targeting issue for cards like Progenitus and True-Name Nemesis. It’s pretty fun to bleed people of counter magic with Enchantments, and then “get em” with Terminus eliminating their clock(s). Only to potentially get those enchantments back with Replenish or Starfield of Nyx later.


Do you consider the Enlightened Tutors to be essential? Those Mirage tutors need to be game changers since you give up a draw.

The slot is questionable, but it shuffles and helps with the A+B combo, but I’m closely watching the slot. It’s nice to see what your opponent is up to and then dial up the right answer, so it’s been performing well.


I really REALLY like Rule of Law main. I think we board it out against grixis delver? Too much counterspells...

I am too, as far as Grixis it again depends on the total list and your overall game plan. I personally would keep them in, and let them counter Parallax Wave or other Enchantments, and then when they have about 3 cards in hand try and get them with Terminus assuming the have creatures, and you have mana for Spell Pierce


Hello, welcome to the GW Opal-Wave, I do not have much experience piloting the deck as I am more of a Enchantress player. But I do assemble it back from time to time. However, with experiences with both decks. Rest in Peace will also eat your own graveyard, since you're also tossing cards away due to commune with the gods or kruphix insight. If its for sideboarding, I find the card to be too slow. The decks that you would bring it on, often can win before the card even comes down, such as dredge or reanimator. Or can be easily interacted with, quickly, and cheaply, either through turn 1 discard, countermagic, or removal. That is why the pilots for this deck prefers something that either comes out fast, or is hard to interact with.

Correct.




Hello Freggle, is this simply to buy you time to assemble your pieces? if so, since the deck tends to dig deep and toss things to the graveyard. Wouldn't Moment's Peace fit that category better? You'll toss it away while you commune or kruphix, it'll sit there in the yard (or even accumulate there) for use at your own pace. Also, with this "toss things to the yard" in mind, I noticed that you pilots, based on your conversations, seem to be struggling with W mana production. Would Riftstone Portal as a 1-off be too cute?

It is to buy time and shore us the non-targetable creatures issue. As for your tech I tthink it would be better if there wasn’t a card Deathrite Shaman given that that card exists I don’t think it’s a good call.

[Weapon X]

Stumbling in again...

I notice opalescence and replenish in all lists here and wonder why no one is running a pandemonium kill.

[mistercakes]

It's just a singleton replenish, pandemonium is off color and pretty bad without opalescence.

[Freggle]

Stumbling in again...

I notice opalescence and replenish in all lists here and wonder why no one is running a pandemonium kill.

Hello Welcome Back Weapon X! As Mirstercakes has jumped in, it's not needed and takes a slot. One of the original versions (prior to this thread) tried to abuse the constellation trigger of Grim Guardian since it didn't target, and it was life loss. However, after playtesting it was just too hard for decks to beat the attacking of 4/4's that it was cut for the slot. Remember after we have Oblivion Ring, Opalescence and Parallax Wave on the battlefield we can remove any targetable permanent indefinitely. So things like Ensnaring Bridge don't save you.

More thought to the tutor - Crop Rotation sideboard:

Here is a sketch of what it *could* look like:

3 Orim's Chant / 3 Silence / 3 Mindbreak Trap - Whichever proves to be most useful
3 Crop Rotation
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland
4 Leyline of Sanctity

...and cut a fetch for Karakas main.

Here we have a gameplan of:

Storm: 3 Chant, Leyline, Rotations, and Bog (for surprise Past in Flames / or Cabal Ritual nuke)

Turbo Depths: 3 Rotation, 3 Swords, Bog, Karakas (Main), Wasteland for a surprise waste with the Depths trigger on the stack if we cant beat it any other way. If we can (like Plow) then nuke the yard with Bog, or get Karakas. It all depends on what is known. ...like do they have a Wasteland or Ghost Quarter of their own showing?

Belcher: 3 Chant, 4 Leyline

...more to come

With this plan we interact early, "trip-up" opponents early wins, and move into our combo or Rule of Law from there.

Edit:

Wasteland is also for 12 Post, All is Dust or more specifically because of the exile mechanic Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is a beating. Perhaps a Wasteland coupled with some Chant's, and / or Rule of Law could keep them off of that before we kill.

[Freggle]

Ran a League tonight with the list above, and the sideboard below. I went 3-2 both losses to TNN in a Delver shell. Got to rethink that plan a little bit I think. Terminus would work, but all of my "engine cards" to set it up got counterd. I may change the numbers a bit to ensure I can set is up easier.

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Orim's Chant
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Faerie Macabre

Started strong then fizzled:

BG Goodstuff (Lilly, Hymn, Bob...) 2-1 I punted Game 1 forgetting I had Replenished out Rule of Law

4 Color Leo 2-0 Deck did what it's supposed to do.

Grixis Delver 0-2 Stifle and TNN

4 Color Delver 0-2 TNN got there I flooded hard G2 after my card filter got counterd

UW Helm 2-0 Deck did normal deck things

Not satisfied with the outcome, but it's data none the less.

[mistercakes]

i still like the idea of playing enchanted evening, but haven't been able to do any testing for this deck. i suppose you can still lose even if you have out opalescence and evening, but it does prevent almost all future spells from being played (unless if they have something like a deathrite out).

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yeah best etb trigger to abuse is probably something like soul/essence Warden. Everything after the combo is just win more. But these wardens are just not good enough!

So maybe Auriok Champion Auriok Champion. I play alot of modern and love to bring this guy vs grix. They cant remove it lol, it blocks gurmag and stalls pyros.

So yah you drop it to buy some time/annoy your opponent and once you combo - BAM infinite life no TNN race or watever!

[Freggle]

Yeah best etb trigger to abuse is probably something like soul/essence Warden. Everything after the combo is just win more. But these wardens are just not good enough!

So maybe Auriok Champion Auriok Champion. I play alot of modern and love to bring this guy vs grix. They cant remove it lol, it blocks gurmag and stalls pyros.

So yah you drop it to buy some time/annoy your opponent and once you combo - BAM infinite life no TNN race or watever!

That's a decent idea! I may try that. I will certainly give it a go in tournament practice. My instincts tell me to try Ghostly Prison or Elephant Grass first. They can't counter all of that, and it would lower the curve of the deck and buy time. Could also play a full set of Terminus or even Wrath of God or Day of Judgment to not be so reliant on filters.

...we could also play Orim's Chant main. It pulls double duty in it can pseudo Timewalk people (no attack, no sorcery speed spells) or bait a counter or clear the path for an uncounterable turn.

3rd option is to pack in more draw, and bring back Enchantress's Presence or some number of Commune with the Gods.


i still like the idea of playing enchanted evening, but haven't been able to do any testing for this deck. i suppose you can still lose even if you have out opalescence and evening, but it does prevent almost all future spells from being played (unless if they have something like a deathrite out).

In the area of fun, that would certainly be fun, however in competitive MTG raising the curve for a card that doesn't draw / look / puts cards in hand or do anything without the combo seems the wrong direction to go for the moment.

I started another League last night with a slightly modified list, but had to sleep. ...and now I'm at work.

Here is the data so far. 2-0, but the deck still feels slightly weak to well timed counter magic especially tempo cards.


2-0 UWB - Stoneblade - Normal deck things and 3-4 card keeps off of Sylvan Library
2-1 Elves - Lost to a nut draw T2 kill G1, Games 2 & 3 Combo-ed. Orim's, Swords, and Terminus performed well.

...hoping to stay hot, but still plenty of time to flop. I'll post the list when I can access it. This time no Rule of Law, and a full set of Mirri's Guile & Sylvan Library I believe just to see if it made a difference.

Edit:

...or is this the deck for Scroll Rack? 3 mana T2 is not hard, and can dig to combo, and function as a back-up dig spell. It can also put Terminus back in the deck. It could be like a Parfait / Miracles / Enchantment combo deck.

[Freggle]

That's a decent idea! I may try that. I will certainly give it a go in tournament practice. My instincts tell me to try Ghostly Prison or Elephant Grass first. They can't counter all of that, and it would lower the curve of the deck and buy time. Could also play a full set of Terminus or even Wrath of God or Day of Judgment to not be so reliant on filters.

...we could also play Orim's Chant main. It pulls double duty in it can pseudo Timewalk people (no attack, no sorcery speed spells) or bait a counter or clear the path for an uncounterable turn.

3rd option is to pack in more draw, and bring back Enchantress's Presence or some number of Commune with the Gods.



In the area of fun, that would certainly be fun, however in competitive MTG raising the curve for a card that doesn't draw / look / puts cards in hand or do anything without the combo seems the wrong direction to go for the moment.

I started another League last night with a slightly modified list, but had to sleep. ...and now I'm at work.

Here is the data so far. 2-0, but the deck still feels slightly weak to well timed counter magic especially tempo cards.


2-0 UWB - Stoneblade - Normal deck things and 3-4 card keeps off of Sylvan Library
2-1 Elves - Lost to a nut draw T2 kill G1, Games 2 & 3 Combo-ed. Orim's, Swords, and Terminus performed well.

...hoping to stay hot, but still plenty of time to flop. I'll post the list when I can access it. This time no Rule of Law, and a full set of Mirri's Guile & Sylvan Library I believe just to see if it made a difference.

Edit:

...or is this the deck for Scroll Rack? 3 mana T2 is not hard, and can dig to combo, and function as a back-up dig spell. It can also put Terminus back in the deck. It could be like a Parfait / Miracles / Enchantment combo deck.

Finished the League 4-1 :-/

Last 3 Matches in order:

Eldrazi 2-0 Combo Got there twice

UW Standstill 2-0 Combo both games game 1 was on a mull to 4 for mana

Chech Pile 0-2 I was excited to get this favorable MU, but I got the classic mana flood (all green how is that possible) into mana screw. Even with Guile up both games. Oh, well.

This was not the best version of the deck, I may go back to Enchantress's Presence, and run that through a league.

Here was the frantic schizophrenic list ran:

EDIT: Corrected list - I did not run Enchantress's Presence

4 Parallax Wave
4 Opalescence
4 Windswept Heath
4 Kruphix's Insight
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Savannah
2 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
6 Forest
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Starfield of Nyx
4 Sylvan Library
4 Mirri's Guile
2 Replenish
3 Terminus
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Verdant Catacombs

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Orim's Chant
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Swords to Plowshares



I think the STPs in the board should be Council's Judgment That's one way to handle a TNN
Or a Revoker / Mom situation.

[Fjaulnir]

That's a pity!! Losing the last one always sucks infinitely more than starting 0-1 and then going 4-1...

What's your screenname btw? Don't remember ever seeing you on MTGO.


Re Cs Judgment: I thought about that one too. STP deals better with early game Infect/Elves though? And Terminus should already help with TNN and Mom-Revoker so except for Prelate on 6 + Mom or Teeg + Mom STP seems better against most decks? Doesn't kill Jace either but this deck should be able to outgrind Jace already + has 4 O Rings.
So changing 1 STP for a C Judg isn't necessarily wrong, but cutting all 3 seems suboptimal in many matchups?

[Freggle]

That's a pity!! Losing the last one always sucks infinitely more than starting 0-1 and then going 4-1...

What's your screenname btw? Don't remember ever seeing you on MTGO.


Re Cs Judgment: I thought about that one too. STP deals better with early game Infect/Elves though? And Terminus should already help with TNN and Mom-Revoker so except for Prelate on 6 + Mom or Teeg + Mom STP seems better against most decks? Doesn't kill Jace either but this deck should be able to outgrind Jace already + has 4 O Rings.
So changing 1 STP for a C Judg isn't necessarily wrong, but cutting all 3 seems suboptimal in many matchups?

I'm also Freggle on MTGO. I hadn't been playing. I was taking a breather as many of us do, and then I fell down a rabbit hole in trading options contracts and stocks. Still do but not in the same volume. That to me was like playing fantasy football 5 days a week instead of once a week :)

Yeah, I came to my senses before submitting. I kept the Plows. I also tested a spicy new one that can fill a lot of roles Thragtusk. I know a 5 CMC creature isn't that win more? ...maybe, but it does work. The ETB effect of gaining 5 life is just what we need to race TNN, and the exit TB trigger of making a 3/3 is icing. It's no joke. You dont even ahve to clock through the iteration much to get a concession.

Helps the burn MU too. Gives us that extra little bit of life to get it done.

I ran another League details below, w/ and altered list

___________________________________________________________________________________________________-

Another League Complete with a slightly different list this time 3-2 :-/

Lands 2-1 – The game I lost I want crazy with Sylvan Libraryand went down to 6 life, and I got had by double p-fire. Live and learn.

Reanimator 1-2 – Won Game 1 on the back of Karakas and wave, Lost Game 2 to loose keep, lost game 3 to a nut draw on a good keep (PLOW, PLOW, Faerie, Guile, fetch, fetch, some others) T1 OP goes unmask (takes Faerie) , ritual, entomb, into Grizzy, into reanimate. Swords Grizzy on 1 activation but still got wreaked.

D&T – 2-1 Cataclysm got me game 2

D&T – 0-2 Both games mana screw, Karakas wasted both games it hurt. I have a love hate relationship with the card in the list. I can honestly say if it were a fetch I would have likely won. I can get ported, but not ported and wasted. Even with Guile and Sylvan

4 color Leo – 2-1 the game I lost it was just weird. I saw tons of cards and little to no disruption, but could not find Opalescence

…so overall in leagues I’m 10 of 15, and it not because of surprise factor Cabal Therapy blind naming Opalescence game 1, Revoker naming Parallax Wave game 1 as well...

I will continue to tweak lists till they are right. I do think Joe was right, and Enchantress’s Presence should remain, it just brings the possible dead space of the deck down, and if one sticks it's excellent against counter magic. I’m unsure about Terminus I benched it for this league. It could have done a lot of work in the D&T MU I lost and the Reanimator match I lost. I mean back breaking work had I been able to miracle it.

I like my new TNN hate right now. It feels great. Thragtusk I wish it were a little bit lower costed in mana, but if there was a guy to blink to get there and race TNN it’s him. I won a game of lands on him. I went to 25, took a hit from the 20/20, and combed right after via a Insight. I had little on board, but being able to make infinite 3/3’s it only took one more turn.
It also makes burn way more playable.

If that falls out of favor my next card to test is Story Circle Here is the list from the last league.

Here was the list run:

4 Parallax Wave
3 Replenish
4 Opalescence
4 Windswept Heath
4 Kruphix's Insight
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Savannah
2 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
5 Forest
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Starfield of Nyx
4 Sylvan Library
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Mirri's Guile
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Orim's Chant
2 Thragtusk

I also tested that lits in Tournament practice

Elves 2-0
Doomsday 1-2 - I could have played better there, the match is very winable
2X D&T 2-0 both times
Lands 2-1 & 0-2 - again port ...maybe Needle?
Nic Fit 2-0

Edit: P.S. Mirri's Guile has been phenomenal, and I'm fairly certain it should remain a 4 of. Just instane in dialing up stuff in the face of Spirit of the Labyrinth or Leovold, Emissary of Trest

[Fjaulnir]

Interesting - all different iterations that I'll have to try out. How has cutting the Terminus for more Replenish again felt?


I just ordered my Lotus Cobras 2-3 days ago, so I'm still behind on versions I have to test :tongue:

[Claymore1]

Would this be a deck where Bow of Nylea actually work in? It's not very good for traditional Enchantress, however, in this deck, a lot of it's modes and effect is actually useful.

Death Touch
Relevant as we can be on the agressive with Opalessence, even when there's no P. Wave out.

+1/+1 Counter to a Creature
Can come in handy, give our creature a turn or 2 just to have a bigger body to break through, when at a standstill with an opponent's creature.

2 Damage to Flying creature
There's plenty of Delver decks around, so this can just out right nuke it.
At least a sure counter for the opponent, 1 less counter for our actual combo.

Gain 3 Life
makes it pretty much near impossible for opponent to kill us with deathrite shaman.
As well as buy us enough time against aggressive decks.
The 3 damage should negate TNN or leovold damage. :

4 cards shuffle
Nice way to bring back Replenish that was tossed to the grave.
Protects our pieces from Surgical Extraction. :tongue:
Mess with opponent when they activate DRS targetting our stuff.


I feel like all modes and all it's ability are actually useful for this deck. :laugh:

[Fjaulnir]

It's interesting, at least!!

With Opal-Wave it also untaps infinitely, so really its ability reads more like 1G: do stuff so it's a nice mana sink potentially.
Because of the gain life it'd probably compete with the Thragtusk slot, although it doesn't make infinite tokens.

[mistercakes]

Summoning sickness?

[slayjay]

Blinking Bow untaps it, but it is summoning sick...so not that much mana sink ;-)

Played Thragtusk as a one off in older builds with Green Sun' s Zenith and it was obviously good against my nemesis burn. May be worth another try. Still not sure if it is better as my loved Drops of Honey. But the endless life / token blink can you get out of random situations ( e.g. Glacial Chasm - both will not loose but you will not loose forever :cool:).

[Freggle]

I just ordered my Lotus Cobras 2-3 days ago, so I'm still behind on versions I have to test :tongue:

Yeah sorry, I’m just trying to find the right combo of cards that makes the actual combo easy to assemble. You’d think I was a card pusher :)


Would this be a deck where Bow of Nylea...

I like the brainstorming a lot. Unfortunately, as others have mentioned it would return summoning sick :-/


Blinking Bow untaps it, but it is summoning sick...so not that much mana sink ;-)

Played Thragtusk as a one off in older builds with Green Sun' s Zenith and it was obviously good against my nemesis burn. May be worth another try. Still not sure if it is better as my loved Drops of Honey. But the endless life / token blink can you get out of random situations ( e.g. Glacial Chasm - both will not loose but you will not loose forever :cool:).

Yeah, I’m not feeling like I have struck gold with Thragtusk, but it has won me games due to its lifegain. Once as described above vs. Turbo Depths, and again vs. Burn I was locked out of dig cards with Pyrostatic Pillar, and found Thragtusk off of Mirri’s Guile. That got me the 5 life and the blocker I needed. The only other card that could have gotten me out of that situation was Parallax Wave as I had Opalescence on the battlefield.

The slot may just want to be Phyrexian Unlife if we are truly racing that will give us a few more turns vs. 1 TNN, plus give us an additional 3/3 body to race with. In addition, it (kinda) blanks life loss, i.e. Tendrils of Agony as we don’t die at 0 or less life, and life loss is not damage so no poison.

If we’re not interested in the life loss tech there is this card I found today Consulate Surveillance.

It works off the same principal of testing Story Circle but this works off of energy, and not mana. Since there is an ETB trigger of 4 energy or 2 activations it will do something with no combo out there, but if the combo is out there we could prevent damage (not life loss) from infinite sources, from infinite colors, indefinitely so long as the combo and that card remains with a 4/4 body to boot.

Edit - oh, and as for the Terminus vs Replenish the two can coexist. I like playing with more Replenish in this digging version again because it essentially "blanks" discard a popular combo disruption. Many times when people go that route, without an extraction effect, they just ramp us as Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library with fetch shuffles can find one of the 3 fairly reliably.

[Freggle]

Happy New Year dev. team! ...and when in paper remember, Opalescence is symmetrical. :)


https://image.ibb.co/nhxsxG/S_S3_Recovered.gif

Some more Tournament Practice results:

Big Red Moon 2-0
Grixis 0-2 – Again Mana Denial
Manaless dredge 0-2
Storm - ANT 1-2 – opponent won t0 I had chant
UW Control 1-2 / 2-1 - Got doulbe Surgical Extractioned Match 1 , played around it match 2
Burn 2-1
Turbo Depths 2-0
Burn 2-1
UWB Stoneblade 2-0
BW Bitterblossom 2-0
TES 2-1 - Chant, Leyline, & Faerie got there games 2 & 3
Doomsday 1-2
UR Delver 2-1
Pox 2-0
UB Control 2-0


Since mana denial has been too effective against us I have cut an Enchantress’s Presence and added a forest to bump the land count up to 21. Deck still runs fine.

4 Parallax Wave
3 Replenish
4 Opalescence
4 Windswept Heath
4 Kruphix's Insight
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Savannah
2 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
5 Forest
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Starfield of Nyx
4 Sylvan Library
3 Enchantress's Presence
4 Mirri's Guile
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Orim's Chant
2 Thragtusk

[Fjaulnir]

So Tom Ross is playing OmniTack these days? :wink: (you blacked out his name but it's still in the Turn indicator and the Phase text box)


I was aware of the effect (modo always reminds me indeed) and have exiled many a Blood Moon etc with it. It's also made the semi-mirror vs Regular Enchantress laughable..
Only enchantments that ever wrecked me were Nyx Fit due to Dovescape... :tongue:

[Freggle]

So Tom Ross is playing OmniTack these days? :wink: (you blacked out his name but it's still in the Turn indicator and the Phase text box)


I was aware of the effect (modo always reminds me indeed) and have exiled many a Blood Moon etc with it. It's also made the semi-mirror vs Regular Enchantress laughable..
Only enchantments that ever wrecked me were Nyx Fit due to Dovescape... :tongue:

Doh, that wasn't the point. I will black / white that out later when I am back home. That match was upwards of a year ago, and it took place in the "Just for Fun" area of MTGO when I was initially testing our different versions of the deck. The match was fun, and it was great to see the combo totally blank S&T gameplan. Even the early version of the deck with 1 or 2 Oblivion Ring main. I'm trying to compile some screenshots to update the original primer in the coming weeks, and I thought that this would be a good one to illustrate the symmetrical nature of Opalescence.

P.s. - I really don't like loosing to Enchantress, and it's pretty satisfying to exile the deck even with 1 Sterling Grove out.

[Memories of the Time]

Hello, i'm testing the deck (after have tried it when you have opened the thread), but i have a very big problem playing non-cantrip decks (and i play almost non cantrip decks, lol). I'm a Nyx Fit player, and after almost year of testing i've built a 4 color build of it, and i'm wondering if -in your opinion- is it possible to try a Bant version here.

[Fjaulnir]

Doh, that wasn't the point. I will black / white that out later when I am back home. That match was upwards of a year ago, and it took place in the "Just for Fun" area of MTGO when I was initially testing our different versions of the deck. The match was fun, and it was great to see the combo totally blank S&T gameplan. Even the early version of the deck with 1 or 2 Oblivion Ring main. I'm trying to compile some screenshots to update the original primer in the coming weeks, and I thought that this would be a good one to illustrate the symmetrical nature of Opalescence.

P.s. - I really don't like loosing to Enchantress, and it's pretty satisfying to exile the deck even with 1 Sterling Grove out.

Yeah although you gotta be a bit lucky - I've still lost plenty of games due to dropping Parallax Wave off Show and Tell, and them getting to draw 7-14 in response to the exile activation. Usually it does buy a few turns, but they often just keep jamming Emrakuls off their Omniscience until I run out of counters and they get back their stuff.

Having an Opalescence already to exile Omniscience helps though (and also to reset fading counters/exile permanently), but assembling both has only worked in a minority of games iirc.

I have also lost often due to not dropping the O-Ring effect but instead greedily dorpping the Parallax Wave - them dropping Omniscience would have done nothing with the O Ring ETB trigger, whereas them getting to cast Griselbrand and draw a bunch more, see the above scenario about my losses.
It does hedge better against SnT into Sneak Attack though as there you're just dead if they have a red mana open to activate in response to the ETB of O Ring.

From my experience I'd always pick O Ring over Wave now though if I have both in hand and no Opalescence out.




Hello, i'm testing the deck (after have tried it when you have opened the thread), but i have a very big problem playing non-cantrip decks (and i play almost non cantrip decks, lol). I'm a Nyx Fit player, and after almost year of testing i've built a 4 color build of it, and i'm wondering if -in your opinion- is it possible to try a Bant version here.

I have played with the thought of adding Brainstorms (or Ponders) to Enchantress before, just never got around to it. (Although I've Jace-stormed out of the SB in UG Enchantress occasionally, as 4 mana isn't much harder than 1 for Enchantress)

More power to you if you find a build that works with cantrips though :-)

[Freggle]

Hello, i'm testing the deck (after have tried it when you have opened the thread), but i have a very big problem playing non-cantrip decks (and i play almost non cantrip decks, lol). I'm a Nyx Fit player, and after almost year of testing i've built a 4 color build of it, and i'm wondering if -in your opinion- is it possible to try a Bant version here.


Hello, i'm testing the deck (after have tried it when you have opened the thread), but i have a very big problem playing non-cantrip decks (and i play almost non cantrip decks, lol). I'm a Nyx Fit player, and after almost year of testing i've built a 4 color build of it, and i'm wondering if -in your opinion- is it possible to try a Bant version here.

You can, but at this time I’m unsure what you would gain. The original (now 18 year old list) (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9176&d=252509&f=ST) was UW, and if you wanted to play blue, I think you would just keep it UW and be more control than to try and go bant. It would be a lot more classic control like build, and not as aggressive as the GW version.

Blue gets you:
• Counter magic
• Cantrips
• Search for Azcanta
• Intuition
• Detention Sphere
• Attunement – (Possibly)
• Parallax Tide – (Possibly)
• Show and Tell – (Possibly)
• Jaces…

This deck likes to tap out, so playing non-free counterspells. …and since you would likely want to play Force of Will you would want the deck to have 24 or more blue spells.

That would give you a shell something like:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Search for Azcanta
4 Detention Sphere
4 force of Will
3 Intuition
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

3 Replenish
4 Terminus
4 Parallax Wave
4 Opalescence

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Tundra
4 Island

That could be equally competitive I believe, but then you’re up against Pyroblast, and other common blue hate.

Now the latest versions of the GW version runs the equivalent number of “pseudo cantrips” 8 – (Mirri’s Guile, and Sylvan Library) so it has the same amount of “dig” it also has the green Dig Through Time (Kruphix’s Insight) that can either reload our hand, or fill the yard to go broken.

I’m not going to discount a UW version, because, let’s face it, it’s blue. …but the green version as far as I can tell can go somewhat close to toe-to-toe as the blue, and sidestep a good deal of blue hate.

EDIT:

Here is a bant list I brainstormed today I'd be interested in trying, but it's likely just garbage. (no cantrips) ...but who wouldn't want to Hypergenesis an animated Decree of Silence into play?

4 Ardent Plea
4 Detention Sphere
2 Decree of Silence
3 Shardless Agent
4 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
3 Mulldrifter

2 Hypergenesis
3 Kruphix's Insight

4 Opalescence
4 Parallax Wave
2 Starfield of Nyx

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
4 Island
2 Forest
5 Plains

Lands: 21
FOW Count: 24
Kruphix count Enchantment Count: 20 -- Including combo card Ardent Plea

...man it would be fun if it worked. If this is explored it warrants a different thread.

[Freggle]

Looking at the match losses I decided mid Testing day to bump the decks land now up to 22. This helps alleviate the mana denial strategies. Didn't cut Replenish and add the land till the 2nd Grixis MU below.

I also opted to Test Fjaulnir tech of Leyline of the Void. Noticing the above match losses to manaless dredge, and reanimator I figured it was warranted even though it's next to impossible for the deck to cast.

List ran tonight:

Main:
1 Starfield of Nyx
4 Opalescence
4 Parallax Wave

4 Kruphix's Insight
4 Sylvan Library
3 Enchantress's Presence
4 Mirri's Guile

4 Oblivion Ring

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl

2 Replenish

4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
2 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Forest
2 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas

Side:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Orim's Chant
4 Leyline of the Void

Tournament Practice Match Results: 6-2 in Matches

Mono Green infect 2-0
Grixis 1-2 L
Belcher 2-1
UR Delver 1-2 L
Grixis 2-1
Jund2-1
12 Post 2-1 - Both wins Replenish off of All is Dust was clutch. Combo for cleanup - No Ugin
Sneak and Show 2-0 - Game two was insane. I won with an Omnitell in play and through 4 Force of Wills, and 1-2 Emrakuls, and 3ish Grizzys.

List still runs clean with 22 lands.

If all hold Fjaulnir plan to do a test Stream this Sat. morning at 9EST. Come join to discuss card choices, and improve the deck.

https://www.twitch.tv/forbiddengrove

[slayjay]

As much as I want to take part in the stream I will take the beauty of Opal Wave to all legacy tournaments at mkm series Frankfurt this weekend :cool:

[Fjaulnir]

Haha that's great!! You're also the guy that bought 1 of the cheaper MKM Candles for UG from under my nose right? :wink: seems like we're on similar life paths :laugh:


Got a finished list already that you're happy about, or do you still need some tweaking?



Speaking of Candles: RE the Lotus Cobra tech, wouldn't Candelabras make more mana for the deck by turn 3? Off a turn 1 Sprawl, Candle adds 0 (and costs 0) turn 2, but after that (esp. with Serra's Sanctum) it adds a lot more usually. Cobra adds 2 on turn 2, so allows for Cobra into 3 drop on turn 2.

Additionally Cobra turns on their otherwise mostly dead removal, whereas Candle makes you weaker to Chalice (and hence also Blood Moon decks which Cobra color filters nicely around) and Revoker or Wear / Tear from the board. I think the removal argument wins out here though as more decks play the former and less the latter.

[kombatkiwi]

I feel that there's no way 4x Mirris Guile 4x Sylvan Library is right, it's just too much redundancy of 'reorder top 3 in upkeep'.

Cobra seems bad for turning on opponent's removal (Arbor Elf is also v strong in this deck with 4x Growth 4x Sprawl if you really have to play a mana creature).

I would be more inclined to think:
- Fertile Ground over mana creatures, if more mana is needed
- Vessel of Nascency replacing some or all of Mirri's Guile
- Some copies of either Enlightened Tutor or Sterling Grove instead of x4 Oblivion Ring x4 Mirri's Guile

[Fjaulnir]

Yeah 8-Guile seemed a bit too much to me too. Wasn't the count only increased by so much to accommodate Terminus, which was cut again from the most recent lists?


Also, what this deck needs is clearly just for Frantic Search to be unbanned, that would solve all of the above in a heartbeat :wink:

[slayjay]

Haha that's great!! You're also the guy that bought 1 of the cheaper MKM Candles for UG from under my nose right? :wink: seems like we're on similar life paths :laugh:


Got a finished list already that you're happy about, or do you still need some tweaking?



Speaking of Candles: RE the Lotus Cobra tech, wouldn't Candelabras make more mana for the deck by turn 3? Off a turn 1 Sprawl, Candle adds 0 (and costs 0) turn 2, but after that (esp. with Serra's Sanctum) it adds a lot more usually. Cobra adds 2 on turn 2, so allows for Cobra into 3 drop on turn 2.

Additionally Cobra turns on their otherwise mostly dead removal, whereas Candle makes you weaker to Chalice (and hence also Blood Moon decks which Cobra color filters nicely around) and Revoker or Wear / Tear from the board. I think the removal argument wins out here though as more decks play the former and less the latter.

Yeah that is right I am the Candle-Thief. Good taste for decks ;-)

I am on a mix list of all of these great ideas here.
Candle could be great again but needs to be tested more.

4 Sylvan and 4 Guile is neccesary for Terminus. However I want to have as less non-enchantment cards in my deck as possible. So at the moment I am on 1 Fertile and 2 Grove and 4 Sylvan and no Cobra noTerminus and still 2 Doomwake.

[Freggle]

I feel that there's no way 4x Mirris Guile 4x Sylvan Library is right, it's just too much redundancy of 'reorder top 3 in upkeep'.

Cobra seems bad for turning on opponent's removal (Arbor Elf is also v strong in this deck with 4x Growth 4x Sprawl if you really have to play a mana creature).

I would be more inclined to think:
- Fertile Ground over mana creatures, if more mana is needed
- Vessel of Nascency replacing some or all of Mirri's Guile
- Some copies of either Enlightened Tutor or Sterling Grove instead of x4 Oblivion Ring x4 Mirri's Guile

I can see your point, and I appreciate you taking the time to comment.

I combined all of the matches we all have posted on here to determine:
https://image.ibb.co/c7e7Gb/match.jpg
Of 172 matches we have faced Storm, Miracles, Grixis Delver, and D&T the most. In addition, 3 of the 4 are some of our worst match-ups to date (not Miracles).

Playing the deck I know that the mana denial that is effective is a combo of Ghost Quarter, Stifle, Wasteland, Rishadan Port. If you notice most of those affect basics, and or our path to basics.

To me part of the issue is our faulty mana base, and the other part is our reliance on growth spells. I was going to type a long post, but I’ll have to keep it short for now. Since we typically do not draw (no Enchantress Effect) on playing our growth spells like you do in typical Enchantress playing our Growth spells at all is a liability. Losing the land (Ghost Quarter) or getting it tapped down is not a effective use of the slot.
This would be effective if we ramped over our opponents, and won, but currently it does not, and we need to address it. Therefore, IMHO playing Fertile Ground on T2, and getting it Dazeed or Pierced does not seem like the best route to take.

All of our tough MU’s are where we do not have time to develop our game plan. Playing more expensive tutors, Sterling Grove or dig spells Vessel of Nascency is also not the answer as it will slow us more.
To me we have to dissect the deck and try and side-step the issue, and try and buy us more time via “stall cards” Combining both is likely best. I will test tonight cutting Wild Growth for Terminus and / or Elephant Grass.

Here is how the deck works today, when you have access to 11 cards (initial 7, +1 Draw, +3 looks) a rough number we only see our stall card 1 out of 3 games, and when we do since it’s 3 mana Oblivion Ring or 4 mana Parallax Wave it’s usually successfully dazed or pierced, or Thalia’ed…
https://image.ibb.co/j96Mbb/Stock.jpg

However, with retooling the deck we would now see the card 2 out of 3 games at a much lower mana cost. That switch alone should buy us time to develop our mana and get to the late game where we are favored.
https://image.ibb.co/hwYdNG/term_Grass.jpg

With these added stall cards we could go back to a yard hate card with less variance, that we could Guile into t2 as opposed to going all in on Leyline, adding more stability to the deck.
As for the 8 Look at the top 3. They are crucial in preventing mulligans, and adding much needed consistency to the deck. Currently, there is nothing more you want to see in the early turns, and I have on many occasions prioritized Guile over a growth spell in this deck as it is the most correct thing to do. (there isn’t much to ramp into on 3)

Edit: Tested. Pulling any growth spell was not ideal. May just have to find room in the board for Carpet of Flowers

[kombatkiwi]

I agree that carpet is probably a great card for this deck if you can find room for it.

One really bizarre suggestion that could work for adding mana is Eladamri's Vineyard. If there is any deck that wants it, it's probably this one, but it still probably isn't good enough.

[Fjaulnir]

Yeah I'd even dare run 1-2 Carpet maindeck on MTGO :smile: much less nonblue decks there than in paper in my experience.



On another note, still RE Story Circles, TNNs etc: has anyone given any thought to Gideon's Intervention here? It's less mana intensive than Story Circle, and can also randomly hose combo decks as well if you survive long enough. Or prevent you from getting All is Dusted vs Eldrazi - or as their stuff is colorless, even prevent you from dying at all which Story Circle can't.
On the other hand, Circle defends against Marit Lages and Burn better.

[Fjaulnir]

Also,

"Freggle has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space." :wink:

[Freggle]

Also,

"Freggle has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space." :wink:

Cleared. Sorry.

[slayjay]

Overall Runed Halo should be better than Gideon ' s Intervention. And even this was not good enough for me.

[Fjaulnir]

Ah ok, I was imagining this can also stop them from Decaying or Chaining your lock pieces vs Storm; or prevent them from casting Sneak Attack which is SnT's best way to beat you. Nevermore meets Runed Halo :smile:

[Freggle]

As discussed a the end of the stream (https://www.twitch.tv/forbiddengrove/videos/all) Words of Worship interaction does work as described.


I'm interested in the interaction of Sylvan Library & Words of Worship

i'd like to know if it's possible to:


Pay mana to put replacement draw effect on the stack for Words of Worship X2
Replace 1st draw trigger in the draw step - Gain 5 Life
Choose to activate Sylvan Library
Replace the 1st Sylvan Library activation - Gain 5 Life (Net +10)
Draw the second Sylvan Library card
Choose the keep the 2nd Sylvan Library card & Pay 4 Life (Net +6 life, 5+5-4)


Therefore, in the end for 2 mana I could net gain 6 life & draw a single card.

You can also gain 15 with no draw and 3 mana, or gain 5 loose 8 (5-8) Net -3 life, and 1 mana for 2 total cards. (a discount to 4 life from Sylvan Library alone)

It's certainly interesting and can change races, help the burn and tempo MUs.



Edit:

Tested this a bot more tonight. Words of Worship is actually pretty good in this deck, and it's not a "win more" I still don't feel it's prefect, but the card sure can stall a game in combo with Enchantress effects, or just Sylvan

It's pretty easy to accidentally get to 50+ life Especially if your living the dream of Parallax Wave + Opalescence + Eidolon of Blossoms (infinite draw) + Words of Worship.

...but just the simple gain 6 for 2 mana a turn with no card loss can really turn some games, and allows us to abuse Sylvan Library draws more. Man, if you play this in paper expect to get friendly with the judges. So many bizzare interactions in this deck.

...also beat a delver deck with Carpet of Flowers


Main:
4 Parallax Wave
4 Opalescence
1 Starfield of Nyx

2 Replenish

2 Carpet of Flowers
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl


4 Oblivion Ring
2 Words of Worship

4 Sylvan Library
4 Kruphix's Insight
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
3 Enchantress's Presence

2 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
6 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Orim's Chant
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Swords to Plowshares

[slayjay]

Just a short summary of the MKM event weekend: The deck pooped at me the whole time…


Played both trials on Friday, went 2-2 each…loosing the last round to storm 2 times definetly sucks. With 3-1 you got a bye for the main event. Two of my opponents in this trials made top 8 main event (Mud-like aggro deck and Sneak and Show). Other matchups where Pox, Maverik and Dragon Stompy with Burning Wish and a lot of protection white dragons…so a lot of random matchups and no Delvers.


So I had to go to main event without byes. After a quick loss to Storm again I beat UR prowess, lost 1-2 to mulligan 5 two times against ur Delver and lost to Storm again. So I went frustrated 1-3 drop.


Guess how often I could get the combo Wave / Opal? Exactly zero times…


I think we are at a point that this deck is not that good in the meta…Of course you can tweak the deck that you can beat combo, but then you loose to other matchups…I am really disappointed about the performance of the deck. I tried a lot of things, had 2 Choke and 2 Carpet of Flowers in sideboard, this was the best part of the weekend and this performed very well. But without this you are just too slow.

[Freggle]

Just a short summary of the MKM event weekend: The deck pooped at me the whole time…


Played both trials on Friday, went 2-2 each…loosing the last round to storm 2 times definetly sucks. With 3-1 you got a bye for the main event. Two of my opponents in this trials made top 8 main event (Mud-like aggro deck and Sneak and Show). Other matchups where Pox, Maverik and Dragon Stompy with Burning Wish and a lot of protection white dragons…so a lot of random matchups and no Delvers.


So I had to go to main event without byes. After a quick loss to Storm again I beat UR prowess, lost 1-2 to mulligan 5 two times against ur Delver and lost to Storm again. So I went frustrated 1-3 drop.


Guess how often I could get the combo Wave / Opal? Exactly zero times…


I think we are at a point that this deck is not that good in the meta…Of course you can tweak the deck that you can beat combo, but then you loose to other matchups…I am really disappointed about the performance of the deck. I tried a lot of things, had 2 Choke and 2 Carpet of Flowers in sideboard, this was the best part of the weekend and this performed very well. But without this you are just too slow.

Slayjay, sorry about the bad beats. That does not sound like any fun. Would you be willing to share the list you ran?

[slayjay]

Of course.

4 Sylvan
4 Kruphyxs
4 Presence
2 Grove

4 Wave
4 Opal
4 O Ring
2 Doomwake
1 Starfield

2 Replenish

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia
1 Fertile

4 Windswept
2 Wooded
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Sanctum
6 Forest

SB

4 Leyline Void
4 Leyline Sanctity
2 Banishing Light
2 Choke
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Engineered Plague

Really wanted to beat Delver and creatures...but you can board 13 cards against Storm as well

[Freggle]

Here is a nearly Mono White list that does pretty well.

Much heavier on the creature hate, and less durdle. It uses the Parfait engine of Land Tax and Scroll Rack to draw tons of cards.

This list also ramps into Enduring ideal. Not to hard to stall the game to 7 mana with this 3 Terminus list.

Not tuned, but plays well, and is favorable to tempo, and fair against combo.

4 Land Tax
3 Terminus
2 Rule of Law
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Parallax Wave
3 Opalescence
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Starfield of Nyx
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Scroll Rack
4 Sylvan Library
2 Enduring Ideal
1 Humility
1 Dovescape

9 Plains
4 Forest
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath

4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Silence
3 Replenish
4 Orim's Chant
3 Ghostly Prison

[Fjaulnir]

I haven't had much time to test lately, but just wondered what the chances are that there's a version of this deck that wants Thought Scour to clear your Sylvans/Guiles and mayhap Search for Azcanta?

It would mean going bigger in on Replenish but worst case vs Graveyard hate it'll still cantrip (would only be bad vs Surgical, not RIP/Leyline per se). Maybe Attunement would be an auto include then as well but I'm not sure that's necessary, as Scour (and Azcanta) are already good by themselves...

[mistercakes]

if you're going to use attunement, would be cool to run with pursuit of knowledge. i always wanted to pair them together in a deck.

[Fjaulnir]

if you're going to use attunement, would be cool to run with pursuit of knowledge. i always wanted to pair them together in a deck.

Don't need Attunement for that though - this deck already runs 4 Sylvan Library? :tongue:

[mistercakes]

oh i just meant in a UW shell. also if attunement is in play and you cast it, you don't need to pass the turn. so that's sorta cool. dunno if that's even any good even with replenish. prob just a win more.

[kombatkiwi]

I haven't had much time to test lately, but just wondered what the chances are that there's a version of this deck that wants Thought Scour to clear your Sylvans/Guiles and mayhap Search for Azcanta?

It would mean going bigger in on Replenish but worst case vs Graveyard hate it'll still cantrip (would only be bad vs Surgical, not RIP/Leyline per se). Maybe Attunement would be an auto include then as well but I'm not sure that's necessary, as Scour (and Azcanta) are already good by themselves...

Has anyone seriously tested Vessel of Nascency yet?
I agree that it would probably make you want to think about replenish more, but this is where I would start if you wanted that effect rather than adding another color

[Fjaulnir]

I woke up thinking... has anyone tried Trinisphere in this deck? Could even be considered maindeck 2-3x...

This, and all-in RIP-Helm (4 RIP 3 Helm) seem to potentially benefit from this tech most, as their combo's don't really care about 3-Ball unlike other Enchantress engines.


It stops your stuff from getting countered, it kills Storm, and just slows down your opponent whille you dig for the pieces with your CMC 2-3 spells. It seems better than Sphere of Resistance in this deck; I've lost games against Storm where having to pay 5 for my Opal and Wave through a Sphere was impossible as I was stuck on 4 mana several turns.

[mistercakes]

I like it!

[mistercakes]

looks like i waited too long to pick up the sanctum's, which were the only cards missing from this deck. will have to wait for this bubble to calm down.

:(

[area]

I woke up thinking... has anyone tried Trinisphere in this deck? Could even be considered maindeck 2-3x...

It's funny how these things go full circle (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24374-Developmental-Enchantment-Stompy) sometimes!

[kombatkiwi]

The new Saga cards are potentially interesting because
a) They're non-aura enchantments so they work with Opalescence (and Kruphix's Insight and Serra' Sanctum and everything else)
b) They have effects that provide advantage over multiple turns and then self-destruct so they're good if you can blink them to reset
c) After they self-destruct you can bring them back with Replenish

Unfortunately I don't know that any of them are powerful enough to be obvious includes:
History of Benalia can be a powerful card in the right shell but this deck probably isn't aggressive enough to warrant it
The Eldest Reborn is at least an answer for TNN
Fall of the Thran provides a permanent lock on everyone's mana if you have the Opal Wave combo online

Something to think about maybe

[Fjaulnir]

looks like i waited too long to pick up the sanctum's, which were the only cards missing from this deck. will have to wait for this bubble to calm down.

:(

Oof... yeah there seems to be a *lot* more buyout activity as of late... stupid sh!t...!


It's funny how these things go full circle (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24374-Developmental-Enchantment-Stompy) sometimes!

That's been on my mind forever... a sort of Sylvan Plug Enchantress.

Haven't had time to work it out though, so much other stuff to do.


Fall of the Thran provides a permanent lock on everyone's mana if you have the Opal Wave combo online

Something to think about maybe

That's cute! Hadn't thought about that interaction yet.

[Freggle]

Yeah best etb trigger to abuse is probably something like soul/essence Warden. Everything after the combo is just win more. But these wardens are just not good enough!

So maybe Auriok Champion Auriok Champion. I play alot of modern and love to bring this guy vs grix. They cant remove it lol, it blocks gurmag and stalls pyros.

So yah you drop it to buy some time/annoy your opponent and once you combo - BAM infinite life no TNN race or watever!

With the printing of Ajani's Welcome this deck now has a clean low-curve white answer to True-name Nemesis, & burn combined that can be found with Kruphix's Insight or Commune with the Gods.

[kombatkiwi]

With the printing of Ajani's Welcome this deck now has a clean low-curve white answer to True-name Nemesis, & burn combined that can be found with Kruphix's Insight or Commune with the Gods.

You also beat storm with infinite life so it might be worth trying to fit that effect somewhere

[kombatkiwi]

You also beat storm with infinite life so it might be worth trying to fit that effect somewhere

The new 1-mana rule of law (Deafening Silence) is also perfect for this archetype as it slots in perfectly with Serra's Sanctum etc and Storm combo was one of the worst matchups before. Could be a strong SB option and hopefully there are some other upgrades for this deck with the new upcoming Theros set

[Freggle]

The new 1-mana rule of law (Deafening Silence) is also perfect for this archetype as it slots in perfectly with Serra's Sanctum etc and Storm combo was one of the worst matchups before. Could be a strong SB option and hopefully there are some other upgrades for this deck with the new upcoming Theros set

I think Veil of Summer may be a better answer, and likely main deck material. As it can give you shoud vs. storm, force a spell through a counter, or protect our goodies from abrupt decay all while cantriping. Seems like a must try.

[mistercakes]

does this new planeswalker 2GW guy have any place in this deck? or is he too slow? dunno if he improves the bad matchups or not, but was curious from the people who play this deck.

[Glass House]

I don't see Calix doing much, but Destiny Spinner is definitely main deck material.

Edit: also worth noting Omen of the Sun. Infinte life and tokens.

[kombatkiwi]

I don't see Calix doing much, but Destiny Spinner is definitely main deck material.

Edit: also worth noting Omen of the Sun. Infinte life and tokens.

Thirst for Meaning is also pretty interesting, and Omen of the Sea. (Not only is it a good setup card, once you go off you can draw your whole deck and put 4 FoW in your hand)
I like the idea of a UW build but idk if a deck in legacy can handle playing so many 4drops (Opal/Wave/Replenish) without the Growth/Sprawl support (UW doesn't have many good sanctum enablers either).

Estrid's Invocation + Reality Acid is a thing you could do in this shell, but too cute probably. (I also just realised it doesn't interact with the opalwave combo because it's an aura)