The Future of the Legacy Decks...

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

It looks like WotC has changed the way they print cards. They have started focusing more on creatures, planeswalkers and have gone away from printing efficient spells that have an effect they consider to be unfun. My question is what types of decks(both specific and broad categories of decks) are most likely to get upgrades and what do you think the legacy metagame will look like in the future?

I think tribal decks(with core sets going away) and obviously prison decks will start declining. While combo decks wont get many upgrades, they will continue to thrive as long as WotC doesnt print even better disruption than what we already have(I doubt they'll print another free counterspell and you cant really print much better than thoughtseize when it comes to hand disruption. Creature based decks especially decks like Death and Taxes and Nic Fit will get the most upgrades. Control and Prison decks will probably start to decline because they arent going to print good control cards in standard because they think it is unfun...

[Tormod]

Google "mtg new world order"+ "creature power creep" you should find some articles from a few years ago.

[Noctalor]

Legacy updates usually involve some form of discount mechanic, both delve and miracle are a perfect example.

Tribal deck could also get an update because they can bring a decent card to a broken level much easier, also if Wizard plans to keep doing their back to xyz blocks Lorwin is one of the next ones and they'll likely print at least one or two good pieces, and most tribals in legacy dont need that much to get back int o the metagame.

Combo rarely gets anything, but a single spell can shake things up and save an archetype by itself (storm wouldn't be a thing without Past in Flames for example, getting another spicy engine could be enough for another 5 years cycle).

Control cant reasonably get tools better than what they have now, Terminus and Plowshares are the end of the line, stack control got Flusterstorm which is bonkers, both Monastery Mentor and Entreat are top notch finishers, the only thing we dont have is a clean card advantage spell, that won't be printed most likely because when they tryed with Dig and Cruise we all saw how broken it was, but counterbalance is good enough to do the "card advantage" on its own.

Pure prison is pretty much dead, there is no reason to not play a creature based prison with both eldrazi and white dudes playable, so yeah i don't think we'll never see a white stax deck, decks like that cant really get a spell that good to carry them back into the meta imho.


Also i don't think we can reasonably predict the future of the game, most staples are cards that no one could have expected to be printed in the first place, and we can't really have a clue about future mechanics, there are many ways to print broken legacy cards that are unable to destroy modern and standard, you can see Mentor being useless in modern, really good in legacy and cancer incarnated in vintage for example, I'm confident that a lot of playable cards will be introduced in the next expansions.

[Michael Keller]

It looks like WotC has changed the way they print cards. They have started focusing more on creatures, planeswalkers and have gone away from printing efficient spells that have an effect they consider to be unfun. My question is what types of decks(both specific and broad categories of decks) are most likely to get upgrades and what do you think the legacy metagame will look like in the future?

I think tribal decks(with core sets going away) and obviously prison decks will start declining. While combo decks wont get many upgrades, they will continue to thrive as long as WotC doesnt print even better disruption than what we already have(I doubt they'll print another free counterspell and you cant really print much better than thoughtseize when it comes to hand disruption. Creature based decks especially decks like Death and Taxes and Nic Fit will get the most upgrades. Control and Prison decks will probably start to decline because they arent going to print good control cards in standard because they think it is unfun...

Legacy's card-pool doesn't change except for when new sets are printed and get sucked into the void of twenty-plus years of Magic. The best cards will always still be the best cards, and as long as they're legal, the future of Legacy archetypes and the cards they use won't change drastically - no matter what's excluded from a new set's print run. I'm kind of trying to understand why this is even a topic of conversation, because saying that Wizards has "gone away from printing efficient spells that have an effect they consider to be unfun" is vague. Spells (as in instant and sorcery spells) will always be a huge part of the game. The problem isn't what they're printing, it's that the spells that were already printed years ago are just so powerful to exclude from most competitive decks that added design space becomes minimal. This puts less a focus on what's new and "cool" as opposed to what works best in a Legacy-legal deck.

[Finn]

This article may be of interest. From Jan 2010, but that writer sure called it right.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/articles/15329-what-next-for-legacy-where-the-wild-things-are

[GreatWhale]

This guy really up'd his crap post game.

I think the more creatures with cast triggers is the wrong direction, I'd rather get a spell countered then some fatty with a disgusting cast trigger ending the game and sitting there with nothing.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

This guy really up'd his crap post game.

Is this supposed to be a compliment or an insult?

[Brael]

It looks like WotC has changed the way they print cards. They have started focusing more on creatures, planeswalkers and have gone away from printing efficient spells that have an effect they consider to be unfun. My question is what types of decks(both specific and broad categories of decks) are most likely to get upgrades and what do you think the legacy metagame will look like in the future?

I think tribal decks(with core sets going away) and obviously prison decks will start declining. While combo decks wont get many upgrades, they will continue to thrive as long as WotC doesn't print even better disruption than what we already have(I doubt they'll print another free counterspell and you cant really print much better than thoughtseize when it comes to hand disruption. Creature based decks especially decks like Death and Taxes and Nic Fit will get the most upgrades. Control and Prison decks will probably start to decline because they aren't going to print good control cards in standard because they think it is unfun...

Basically, the whole format is becoming more and more creature focused, you can even make a justifiable case to run Burn with as many as 20 creatures these days.

Creatures are getting better, which in turn means removal is getting better. With the shift to board presence mattering, combo is also getting worse. With combo getting worse, Force is getting worse and as such blue dominance is going down, though Force is powerful enough (to say nothing of Brainstorm) that blue's position as the formats top color will never go away.

Where the Modern meta is now, Legacy will be in another 5 years.

[Finn]

Basically, the whole format is becoming more and more creature focused, you can even make a justifiable case to run Burn with as many as 20 creatures these days.

Creatures are getting better, which in turn means removal is getting better. With the shift to board presence mattering, combo is also getting worse. With combo getting worse, Force is getting worse and as such blue dominance is going down, though Force is powerful enough (to say nothing of Brainstorm) that blue's position as the formats top color will never go away.

Where the Modern meta is now, Legacy will be in another 5 years.Those are pretty bold predictions there.

[TsumiBand]

I did this in some post somewhere like a year ago but, if you look at a site like mtgtop8 or whatever and read the top card inclusions for all cards, you basically get your answer. Legacy plays old duals, Brainstorm, and the brokenest things from the last like 5 years of Magic. Jace, Delver, Dig Through Time, etc.

This post feels like a throwback to older times tbh -- a time whrn "Fish decks" where quaint oddities alongside Oath and Storm decks. The future is already here, more or less.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Well if blue gets worse combo gets better. Combo isnt going to decline unless there are bans...

That being said, legacy will not become like modern because modern is defined by fair nonblue decks which get crushed by combo in legacy.

[phonics]

Its been like this since Lorwyn (and I guess future sight, though goyf was probably unintended).

[Seraphix]

I think combo decks that focus on cheating stuff into play keep getting better and will continue to as long as Wizards keeps printing flashy, "overcosted" Mythics that cater to the casual/EDH crowd but end up being very powerful in Legacy too. Think Emrakul, Griselbrand, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, etc. One of these hasn't come around in a little while now I think, but I expect others to break into Legacy in the future.

[Brael]

Those are pretty bold predictions there.

I don't know about that. Without getting into the Brainstorm ban argument, the existence of T2 and T3 combo in Legacy ensures that Force of Will is always going to remain a necessary police card to the format, and Force pushes things to blue.

On the creature front, it's a bit more bold and probably something of an unpopular prediction since Modern doesn't seem popular on these boards but with creature power creep the format is inevitably going to become more creature focused.


Well if blue gets worse combo gets better. Combo isnt going to decline unless there are bans...

That being said, legacy will not become like modern because modern is defined by fair nonblue decks which get crushed by combo in legacy.

I mean in how the decks look, creature/removal counts, land counts, and so on not necessarily in color. Legacy is going to favor Blue just as in Modern Green and Red are the undisputed top 2 colors. That's not necessarily a bad thing either, and that's coming from someone who plays Blue in Modern but not in Legacy, meaning I do everything backwards.

[Barook]

As far as creature power creep goes, Wizards just put a T1 Aggro deck out of nowhere on the map in form of the Eldrazi.

I doubt creature removal gets any better. AD was a fluke aimed at Legacy to combat Counterbalance. Removal in general gets overcosted to hell and back or gets more narrow in recent sets. The only way removal gets relevant in Legacy are "charm" type spells that can compensate their narrowness by doing other things.

[Begle1]

Basically, the whole format is becoming more and more creature focused, you can even make a justifiable case to run Burn with as many as 20 creatures these days.

Creatures are getting better, which in turn means removal is getting better. With the shift to board presence mattering, combo is also getting worse. With combo getting worse, Force is getting worse and as such blue dominance is going down, though Force is powerful enough (to say nothing of Brainstorm) that blue's position as the formats top color will never go away.

Where the Modern meta is now, Legacy will be in another 5 years.

I agree with this. I expect to see the extremely varied archetypal gameplans of Legacy get slowly melded together into a Modernesque world of mid-range interaction. I think Eldrazi is a harbinger of things to come; new strong creatures that provide fast enough clocks while being prison pieces, or working alongside prison pieces, will push things farther to the mid-range. Things are going to get grindier and grindier.

I think the overarching trend is that they will continue to push the envelop when it comes to "strong creatures that interact". (Thalia, the new Thalia, Vryn Wingmare, Thought-Knot Seer, Reclamation Sage, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Notion Thief, et cetera.) These creatures won't all be hits and find homes, but they're going to keep printing more and more, so the power shift is inclined in that direction. How long before we see a Rest in Peace or Flusterstorm on legs? I don't think creature-filled decks are going to get faster, just more interactive and controlling, which will make them more consistent.

Spells that power non-interactive combo (or heavy control), like Past in Flames (or Supreme Verdict), are much fewer and far between. Power will jolt back in that direction every know and then, but the long slide is into more decks having controlling interaction alongside creatures.

The flip side is that they will also continue to print more powerful creatures (and other permanents) on the top end, which makes reanimation and Show and Tell/ Sneak Attack/ Eureka "cheat things into play" combo strategies always circle around to being better and better. But I don't think they're really going to top Griselbrand and Emrakul, if they do it will just be another accidental hiccup on the road to the game being about interacting with creatures.

[GreatWhale]

Is this supposed to be a compliment or an insult?

Compliment. You had some real doozies.

I think creature power creep is interesting to think about for the future, how long until Tarmogoyf has to grow to be as big as vanilla two drops?

[Ace/Homebrew]

I guess now...

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/125/398/200/283/636028821187881873.png


Compliment. You had some real doozies.
My sarcasmeter must be off... I read that as an insult. Unless your most recent response was sarcastic...

My brain hurts.

[owerbart]

I think prison decks were actually doing well lately, since how the meta shifted with the eldrazis. Stax decks and lands do really well against them.

Of course wizards don't really want to print more prisonesque permanents like cotv or trini, but overall they are doing well.

[Dice_Box]

A quick look since RTR:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=253561&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=398525&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=386518&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=386705&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=409811&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=401981&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=386613&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=373604&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=368950&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=270356&type=card

[Dice_Box]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=265385&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=277995&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=253512&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=382239&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=398649&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=410012&type=card

[Rascalyote]

Spells printed 'recently' that have been banned-

Dig Through Time
Treasure Cruise
Mental Misstep

Creatures printed 'recently' that have been banned-

......



Your move Yugi :^)

[CutthroatCasual]

TKS needs a restriction in Vintage.

[Darkenslight]

So, apparently, adding Opposition to Elves! is a good thing, as Pierre Canali just went 7-1 at BoM Strasbourg.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

That deck is pure gasoline honestly

[Richard Arschmann]

The new spells Wizards has printed have warped Legacy, while the new creatures have been pretty meh. Vryn Wingmare? Spirit of the Labyrinth?

[Mr Miagi]

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around...

[btm10]

TKS needs a restriction in Vintage.

You spelled 'Gush' wrong.

[aluisiocsantos]

The new spells Wizards has printed have warped Legacy, while the new creatures have been pretty meh. Vryn Wingmare? Spirit of the Labyrinth?

Eldrazi Stompy?

[Barook]

Eldrazi Stompy?
It has meta presence, but format warping? How so?

[snorlaxcom]

A quick look since RTR

You forgot the most important one.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=413757&type=card

[Megadeus]

It has meta presence, but format warping? How so?

It's close. You definitely take into account this deck when side boarding and chalice being prevalent is huge

[Dice_Box]

You forgot the most important one.
I was only posting non creatures. DRS, regardless of planswalker jokes, is still a creature.

As for Eldrazi. Format warping maybe, but not massively. The decks that are still pushing DTB have not changed. Eldrazi is slipping slightly in its win percentages but it's meta penetration is still high. It's effectiveness has started to fall away and while people might build a sideboard with it in mind, that's just what you do when a force appears you have to answer.

The format warping deck is still Miracles. All my data suggests that it's Miracles you must worry about the most. Even now after everyone claimed Eldrazi would end the format as we know it. Turns out that's not the case.

[GreatWhale]

It's close. You definitely take into account this deck when side boarding and chalice being prevalent is huge

But chalice isn't a creature

[slave]

The format warping deck is still Miracles.
This. I can't remember a single meet where Miracles was represented and didn't figure in the top4. It's just so consistent against so many opponents.


The thing I take out of the changes in MTG, with their new prints over the last 5 years;
Hate is getting stronger.
Whether they're permanents or not, the cards that hate on combo's, graveyards, tokens etc. are becoming more varied and in some instances, terminal to a particular strategy.
Going All-In, or Over-Reaching has always been something we have to be wary of in Legacy, but now that we have cards like Terminus, Flusterstorm, Grafdigger's Cage etc., all at a miserly cost of 1cmc, I feel the penalty for over-reaching has never been more severe.

[paraszczak]

From year to year, this discussion comes back like a boomerang. Legacy is the healthiest of all Magic formats.

Look at this summary (based on mtgtop8.com):

2016 (Aggro 39% Control 35% Combo 26%) - so far, it's July!
2015 (Aggro 29% Control 39% Combo 32%)
2014 (Aggro 34% Control 37% Combo 29%)
2013 (Aggro 38% Control 32% Combo 30%)
2012 (Aggro 40% Control 30% Combo 30%)
2011 (Aggro 42% Control 31% Combo 27%)

[Dice_Box]

From year to year, this discussion comes back like a boomerang. Legacy is the healthiest of all Magic formats.

Look at this summary (based on mtgtop8.com):

2016 (Aggro 39% Control 35% Combo 26%) - so far, it's July!
2015 (Aggro 29% Control 39% Combo 32%)
2014 (Aggro 34% Control 37% Combo 29%)
2013 (Aggro 38% Control 32% Combo 30%)
2012 (Aggro 40% Control 30% Combo 30%)
2011 (Aggro 42% Control 31% Combo 27%)

I would personally argue that no format is the "healthiest" and that Legacy just happens to suit what you like to do in Magic if you see it that way. Someone who enjoys Midrange would likely make the argument that Modern is the "healthiest". Both I guess have their points from their points of view.

As for your numbers. In 2011 the top aggro decks actually where aggro. Goblins, Fish, Maverick, Zoo and Thresh where your Aggro decks. Each of these actual aggro decks (well, Thresh was always tempo). Today the "Aggro" category is filled with "Tempo" decks and Aggro is no longer an actual deck type in Legacy. (Eldrazi is kind of back in that wheelhouse)

Control was an open field, Landstil, Thopters and Dutch Stax. The format was not all based around one core when it came to that category

Combo though... Cephalid Breakfast and High Tide. Come back I miss you both.

Your numbers on the breakdown look nice, but they are not telling the story of what has happened over those years. The 2011 format looks far more interesting to me than the 2016 one does. Goblin tinted glasses maybe, but hey, I will wear that bias on my sleeve.

[paraszczak]

I would personally argue that no format is the "healthiest" and that Legacy just happens to suit what you like to do in Magic if you see it that way. Someone who enjoys Midrange would likely make the argument that Modern is the "healthiest". Both I guess have their points from their points of view.
I think your understanding of the term "healthy" is quite different from that to which we are used to. A healthy format is a format that allows a wide variety of cards/decks/archetypes to be viable. The healthy meta would allow for a loose "rock/paper/scissors" meta of Control, Aggro, and Combo. Finally, healthy legacy should allow multiple decks in these archetypes.



As for your numbers. In 2011 the top aggro decks actually where aggro. (...) Goblin tinted glasses maybe, but hey, I will wear that bias on my sleeve.
Legacy is large enough that Aggro, Control, Combo hybridizes into Aggro, Tempo, Midrange, Prison, etc. deck archetypes. I would call it an evolution.

[Dice_Box]

I would call it a whole sale distrustion of Aggro as a force in Legacy. Tempo does not equal Aggro. Aggro in Legacy is dead.

Call it how you want to, I do not look at the 2011 format and think "Look how healthy Legacy is in 2016". I look at it and mourn.

[Zombie]

The healthy meta would allow for a loose "rock/paper/scissors" meta of Control, Aggro, and Combo. Finally, healthy legacy should allow multiple decks in these archetypes.

Legacy's been more Miracles >= (Tempo >= Combo > Midrange > Tempo) for quite a while.

[paraszczak]

@Dice_Box: We could discuss this for hours. Especially when it is difficult for us to switch on objectivity.

[Dice_Box]

@Dice_Box: We could discuss this for hours. Especially when it is difficult for us to switch on objectivity.
You misunderstand. I am saying a simple thing. 2011 numbers do not matter when you put them next to 2016 numbers. They are both "Legacy" numbers sure, but they are not the same format in truth. There is more that separates them as formats then binds them.

Your "Look how healthy Legacy is and has been for years" comment falls flat because you are comparing Apple Juice to Apple flavoured cordial. They both have Apple in their name. I guess that's a start.

[paraszczak]

6 decks in Deck to Beat, over 60 in Established Decks and some in New and Developmental. In these threads you can find every possible archetype. And if you think that any of them are nowadays unplayable in Legacy, because it is no longer 2011, so go ahead and share your opinion with them.

[Dice_Box]

Do me a favour and take High Tide to an event. Let me know how it works out.

Established means a tested and perfected deck, it doesn't mean competitive one.

[paraszczak]

I don't have to. Someone has already done it for me:
http://www.tcdecks.net/archetype.php?archetype=Spiral%20Tide&format=Legacy

[Lemnear]

I don't have to. Someone has already done it for me:
http://www.tcdecks.net/archetype.php?archetype=Spiral%20Tide&format=Legacy

A 4 round trial ... wow. Just like Burn & Dragon Stompy

[Dice_Box]

You are either totally misunderstanding my point or your intentionally avoiding it.

Your numbers, 2011 to 2016 don't mean anything. Aggro is not a force in Legacy anymore and overall dominance of one deck and by extension one B/G card is not healthy. If you want numbers you can have them when I get home. I have the DTB section as far back as the Survival days. I can make that case, but I normally try and stay out of that talk because it turns into a ban thread and I am sick to fucking death of those.

Legacy in 2016 is only healthy if you have blinders on, it's sure as fuck not as fun as it use to be and the decks you would expect to see in the top tables has dropped to about 10. One of those you might even see take up half the top tables. Sure, you can pull off one offs with Goblins, Burn and High Tide but that's variance. No one is taking Goblins to an SCG because they want to come first.

Hell even Feline when she won and SCG with Tide said she brought it because she was always going to, not because it was well placed. She just happens to be a fucking Goddess with that deck. (Miss you Fee, come back.)

Now I will nail my colours to the mast, I don't like the state of Legacy right now. I think that it's becoming hyperfocused on 3 decks, Miracles, Shardless and Eldrazi. I think that is diminishing the joy in the format overall and I think that the reason for the focus is the Turbo Xerox style deck building. I also find it disingenuous to compare a format with THREE DTBs to a format that was fun and fluctuating often.

You compared 2011 with 2016, I am just telling you your out of your mind. You took a tiny snapshot of numbers and tried to make a flawed case. Well, your argument is flawed, Legacy is as healthly as a stagnate pool and can be about as fun to play in. It's only because my local meta is filled with people that have no intention to spend 2 grand to keep up with trends that I still enjoy playing it locally.

[Zombie]

Now I will nail my colours to the mast, I don't like the state of Legacy right now. I think that it's becoming hyperfocused on 3 decks, Miracles, Shardless and Eldrazi. I think that is diminishing the joy in the format overall and I think that the reason for the focus is the Turbo Xerox style deck building. I also find it disingenuous to compare a format with THREE DTBs to a format that was fun and fluctuating often.

Two of those decks are also just about locking people out from playing Magic, which probably has a lot to do with it. A Storm > Midrange > Delver meta would be preferable IMO, in terms of actual games getting played.

[MorphBerlin]

Two of those decks are also just about locking people out from playing Magic, which probably has a lot to do with it. A Storm > Midrange > Delver meta would be preferable IMO, in terms of actual games getting played.

I agree with that, both chalice and counterbalance are just stupid if you don't play abrupt decay or have a Force. Actually I think I almost liked the pre DTT-ban meta more then it is right now... It has become frustrating with 2 Decks being so clearly above everything else... Shardless is jsut in the Tiers because it has a decent MU against both of those decks.

Banning Chalice and Counterbalance sounds somewhat apealling if you think about it. Storm would get much stronger though, maybe too much then.

I hope they dont ban top because Miracles wouldn't survive that.

[Dice_Box]

Ban talk has its own thread.

[btm10]

Now I will nail my colours to the mast, I don't like the state of Legacy right now. I think that it's becoming hyperfocused on 3 decks, Miracles, Shardless and Eldrazi. I think that is diminishing the joy in the format overall and I think that the reason for the focus is the Turbo Xerox style deck building. I also find it disingenuous to compare a format with THREE DTBs to a format that was fun and fluctuating often.


I don't think you can ignore Delver or Lands in a discussion about the top of the meta, but that's beside the point. When you say "Turbo Xerox", are you referring to the use of cantrips to shave on lands and smooth out draws, or are you referring to netdecking? The only solution to the former is banning multiple cantrips, and the only way to fight netdecking is to be much more aggressive with bannings and unbannings so that the meta can't settle.

Simply copying decks seems to be more common in North America than it is elsewhere (it's a big lart of why the meta here evolves more slowly than it does in Europe) and that's probably because the most competitive Legacy players here tend to associate with SCG/PTQ/GP grinders and reflect that cluture to a greater extent than the corresponding players elsewhere. It's very hard to find a competitive group to test with in the States unless you're on a deck that's perceived to be good (I say this as someone who plays a lot of blue decks despite my love for Enchantress). It's way easier to just show up to a new LGS with Delver or Shardless or Miracles and establish credibility by doing well in a few weeklies than it is to do the same thing for months or spike an event with your pet deck to get the same respect, and having that solid group creates a feedback loop of making everyone in the group better (and thus more likely to succeed in large events).

[Megadeus]

Oddly enough, if you did that in Atlanta playing a net deck like shardless or miracles you'll be hated out and nobody will want to play with you.

[nedleeds]

Format is younger, younger players grew up with the internet telling them what to eat, what to play, what to wear and which Kardashian to wank to. As old grumpy players like me leave the format you'll see less bad decks and more internet. Bury me with my Forcefield.

[Dice_Box]

When you say "Turbo Xerox", are you referring to the use of cantrips to shave on lands and smooth out draws, or are you referring to netdecking?
Turbo Xerox as in the 97 deck building theory. Cantrips.

[btm10]

Oddly enough, if you did that in Atlanta playing a net deck like shardless or miracles you'll be hated out and nobody will want to play with you.

That's more regional variation than I thought existed, but bases on Tusk Talk and the posters from Atlanta here, you guys have managed to create a pretty brew-friendly competitive community that's self-sustaining largely because the meta is so hostile to the top decks. I'm not really sure how you solved that particular collective action problem, but props.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

That's more regional variation than I thought existed, but bases on Tusk Talk and the posters from Atlanta here, you guys have managed to create a pretty brew-friendly competitive community that's self-sustaining largely because the meta is so hostile to the top decks. I'm not really sure how you solved that particular collective action problem, but props.

Well if you play in a small tournament (4 rounds), legacy is pretty open to everything. Just won some rounds with my starfield of nyx deck...
Aperently abrupt decay and daze are very bad vs shit decks c:

[Humphrey]

I stopped playing legacy less because of the design philosophy, but because of the ban philosophy. Sure, Misstep, Delver, Snapcaster, TNN, TC shouldnt be blue, but thats legacy..
I basically dropped the format after Misstep was banned during a time the format hadnt the time to adjust. Then came back when TC was printed and left immediately after the ban. Again the format wasnt fully settled.
While Brainstorm is untouched.

Id rather have a competitive format with rotating 3-6 Tier1 Decks instead of this stalemate that was artifically created due to ban-philosophy. After 10 years every old legacy deck thats been around is boring to play against and not fun. And its even less fun to lose against some random pile like burn in the first 3 rounds.

[DarthVicious]

Turbo Xerox as in the 97 deck building theory. Cantrips.

Wow... haven't heard that term in a LONG time.

[Brael]

I don't think you can ignore Delver or Lands in a discussion about the top of the meta, but that's beside the point. When you say "Turbo Xerox", are you referring to the use of cantrips to shave on lands and smooth out draws, or are you referring to netdecking? The only solution to the former is banning multiple cantrips, and the only way to fight netdecking is to be much more aggressive with bannings and unbannings so that the meta can't settle.

Simply copying decks seems to be more common in North America than it is elsewhere (it's a big lart of why the meta here evolves more slowly than it does in Europe) and that's probably because the most competitive Legacy players here tend to associate with SCG/PTQ/GP grinders and reflect that cluture to a greater extent than the corresponding players elsewhere. It's very hard to find a competitive group to test with in the States unless you're on a deck that's perceived to be good (I say this as someone who plays a lot of blue decks despite my love for Enchantress). It's way easier to just show up to a new LGS with Delver or Shardless or Miracles and establish credibility by doing well in a few weeklies than it is to do the same thing for months or spike an event with your pet deck to get the same respect, and having that solid group creates a feedback loop of making everyone in the group better (and thus more likely to succeed in large events).

This is definitely true. If I had a nickel for every time someone refused to play with me when I'm on Maverick, Nic Fit, or Burn because they only want to play against real decks, I would have a foiled out copy of Miracles right now.

[Echelon]

This is definitely true. If I had a nickel for every time someone refused to play with me when I'm on Maverick, Nic Fit, or Burn because they only want to play against real decks, I would have a foiled out copy of Miracles right now.

Shees. Elitist much? Or butt hurt anyDelver players much..? Sucks to be you man, damn!

[Amon Amarth]

Format is younger, younger players grew up with the internet telling them what to eat, what to play, what to wear and which Kardashian to wank to. As old grumpy players like me leave the format you'll see less bad decks and more internet. Bury me with my Forcefield.

Legacy has always had the problem of some people uncritically accepting whatever talking head at the time thinks. I remember people running garbage decks, like the old 4C CounterTop decks, because the pros were playing it. Bleh.

[ESG]

Format is younger, younger players grew up with the internet telling them what to eat, what to play, what to wear and which Kardashian to wank to. As old grumpy players like me leave the format you'll see less bad decks and more internet. Bury me with my Forcefield.

It might warm your grumpy old heart to know that some kid I met a couple months ago at a weekly Legacy event was trying to make Gilder Bairn work. It was definitely of the bad-deck category and not of the Internet category. Plenty of players come up with their own lists. Some of those lists even wind up being good.

[Blastoderm]

Shees. Elitist much? Or butt hurt anyDelver players much..? Sucks to be you man, damn!

Delver players are always the most butthurt.

[mistercakes]

after reading through this there's a lot of complaining and less focus on how a bunch of like minded people can work on pushing against these top tier decks.

people playing death and taxes, lands, elves can get away just fine without playing brainstorm and ponder. many of the games with these decks play out just fine, even against the delver, miracle, shardless, and eldrazi decks.

if we focused on taking one of the lists and geared it to prey on the top 3, it might encourage players to try picking up other decks.

maybe we can start a thread on pick one deck and then doing massive testing and tweaking against those top 3. who knows, maybe there is a deck that isn't played much now, but would be good under these conditions.

I'd be happy to test on modo, as I have almost everything (except ports bc i sold them recently)

[Lemnear]

after reading through this there's a lot of complaining and less focus on how a bunch of like minded people can work on pushing against these top tier decks.

people playing death and taxes, lands, elves can get away just fine without playing brainstorm and ponder. many of the games with these decks play out just fine, even against the delver, miracle, shardless, and eldrazi decks.

if we focused on taking one of the lists and geared it to prey on the top 3, it might encourage players to try picking up other decks.

maybe we can start a thread on pick one deck and then doing massive testing and tweaking against those top 3. who knows, maybe there is a deck that isn't played much now, but would be good under these conditions.

I'd be happy to test on modo, as I have almost everything (except ports bc i sold them recently)

Chalice decks like Lands or Eldrazi are essentially made to beat the whole cantrip Galore of the Rest of the format and the only competable non-blue decks in Legacy are build around redundancy just like blue decks.

You are asking for concepts already explored.

[mistercakes]

yea i understand that, but there is so much complaining, but i'm not sure where it's coming from.

while miracles and eldrazi are very strong, i've seen a pretty wide range of results coming through on modo for a while. is this only because of lack of choices the players are making on the paper side?

i'm only looking to steer this conversation into something productive, instead of just a place to rant.

[Lemnear]

yea i understand that, but there is so much complaining, but i'm not sure where it's coming from.

while miracles and eldrazi are very strong, i've seen a pretty wide range of results coming through on modo for a while. is this only because of lack of choices the players are making on the paper side?

i'm only looking to steer this conversation into something productive, instead of just a place to rant.

I can't contribute on the subject of monetary reasons restricting players to switch decks as a factor for either Modo or Paper.

This thread is 45% B&R discussion and 45% about Reprints which we have distinctive threads for, so if anythings left here, I think its discussing how the longterm attractiveness of the format is affected by the handling of the format in terms lf the previously mentioned B&R, reprint, tournaments support and other factors. :)

[mistercakes]

sorry, i wasn't clear enough. i didn't mean lack of actual choices due to $$$, but lack of perceived choices due to metagame.

[Deadinthestreet]

I hope tabernacle and wasteland just get better and better.

[Lemnear]

sorry, i wasn't clear enough. i didn't mean lack of actual choices due to $$$, but lack of perceived choices due to metagame.

Ah, my bad

[Tormod]

I suspect a big reason the format has stagnated because SCG dropped Legacy Sundays so we less Legacy. Coverage also became very linear where they covered the same decks or the same players creating a cycle of monotony of how SCG was "shaping" Legacy.

Personally my Legacy time has gotten shorter now that I have a family of 5. I get out 2-3 times a month. My meta is miracles, storm, shardless, delver, dnt and, show and tell and eldrazi, with a sprinkle of burn, nic fit, reanimator, elves and a some occasional rogue decks.

I still have fun playing but I don't go to big events anymore.

[apple713]

The future of legacy decks is mono blue control, mono blue combo, and mono blue aggro. Each deck consistently places in the top 8 and people forget that other colors exist.

[Lemnear]

I suspect a big reason the format has stagnated because SCG dropped Legacy Sundays so we less Legacy. Coverage also became very linear where they covered the same decks or the same players creating a cycle of monotony of how SCG was "shaping" Legacy.

SCG is cancer for MTG broadcasting. They show the ever same boring mainstream matchups and/or their SCG Pro Players.

I remember SCG Opens with 50% Tom Ross matches for fucks sake.

[Crimhead]

Chalice decks like Lands or Eldrazi are essentially made to beat the whole cantrip Galore of the Rest of the format and the only competable non-blue decks in Legacy are build around redundancy just like blue decks.
This is inaccurate.

First, Lands.dec is not a "Chalice deck". It's a staple side board card, and in R/G builds (as opposed to RUG builds) it's typically a singleton

More Importantly, Lands is absolutely not made to beat cantrip decks! Sneak-Show, Storm and High Tide are cantrip decks, and Lands sucks against those. Lands is built to fight fair, creature based tempo & midrange decks; regardless of whether or not they run cantrips.


The future of legacy decks is mono blue control, mono blue combo, and mono blue aggro. Each deck consistently places in the top 8 and people forget that other colors exist.Mono blue isn't very good, the best decks are Merfolk and Omnitell.

[apple713]

This is inaccurate.

First, Lands.dec is not a "Chalice deck". It's a staple side board card, and in R/G builds (as opposed to RUG builds) it's typically a singleton

More Importantly, Lands is absolutely not made to beat cantrip decks! Sneak-Show, Storm and High Tide are cantrip decks, and Lands sucks against those. Lands is built to fight fair, creature based tempo & midrange decks; regardless of whether or not they run cantrips.

Mono blue isn't very good, the best decks are Merfolk and Omnitell.

ya but the future as in give it time and we will all be playing blue because the best cards will hands down be blue. Blues color pie will just take over everything.

[rufus]

ya but the future as in give it time and we will all be playing blue because the best cards will hands down be blue. Blues color pie will just take over everything.

But they'll also print progressively sillier multicolored creatures and creature enablers.

[Lemnear]

This is inaccurate.

First, Lands.dec is not a "Chalice deck". It's a staple side board card, and in R/G builds (as opposed to RUG builds) it's typically a singleton

More Importantly, Lands is absolutely not made to beat cantrip decks! Sneak-Show, Storm and High Tide are cantrip decks, and Lands sucks against those. Lands is built to fight fair, creature based tempo & midrange decks; regardless of whether or not they run cantrips.

Plenty of Lands.dec these days Maindeck Chalice for obvious reasons for a much better game 1 especially against combo, Delver and Miracles and is generally well positioned against the later two which have a meaningful metagame share compared to HighTide.

[Dice_Box]

Plenty of Lands.dec these days Maindeck Chalice for obvious reasons
This is news to me. Chalice is actively bad in the main. Why weaken your good Matches across the board to help against the matches that are often bad regardless of what you do?

[Mr Miagi]

This is news to me. Chalice is actively bad in the main. Why weaken your good Matches across the board to help against the matches that are often bad regardless of what you do?
My thoughts exactly.

Chalice in the main is pretty retarded considering you have at elast 12 one drops yourself which are pretty cruical game 1. Chalice numbers even in boards is declining 2, 1 or even 0.. so.. putting chalice in main in the already highly packed lands list is quite retarded to say the least. :eyebrow:

[Lemnear]

My thoughts exactly.

Chalice in the main is pretty retarded considering you have at elast 12 one drops yourself which are pretty cruical game 1. Chalice numbers even in boards is declining 2, 1 or even 0.. so.. putting chalice in main in the already highly packed lands list is quite retarded to say the least. :eyebrow:

Its "stupid" to slot that card into a deck with 12+ 1cc spells. Maybe one must be a genius to come up with the idea to adjust their lands.dec accordingly /s

Does anyone need more than 1 Exploration/Gamble resolved? Once you have access to LftL, locking 1cc spells isn't backbreaking. I am well aware of Crop Rotation, Gamble and Exploration in the deck, but given that all but Rotation are T1 plays, I think Rotation is not only the weakest link, but the only card standing in the way of T2 Chalice from a strategic POV

Edit:
I consider the losses in regards to potenially cutting Rotation pretty marginal compared to the gains of softlocking opponents with Chalice with a look at the current metagame structure

[Mr Miagi]

Well, this is more of a discussion about lands and perhaps should be moved there, but I can't swallow this comments about chalice.

Were exactly are you seeing this trend of maindecking chalices? Are they successfull with it? I really have not seen this and you claiming this seems a bit thinn (to me), looks more of a personal agenda rather than an actual trend.

People maindecking Bosejiu as an adaptation to miracles I've seen. But chalices.. not really.

Your sources?

[Lormador]

I wouldn't worry about it. Chalice is a frustrating card at times but an interesting and important policeman. Its fluctuating metagame presence is an interesting puzzle for combo players to deal with, and I've enjoyed seeing Eldrazi Stompy and ANT wander in and out of the DTB section.

I think it's flatly impossible to predict the future of any Legacy deck (other than tempo being always with us) because Wizards can turn the world upside down with a single printing. Mental Misstep? Treasure Cruise? Entire strategies that had been the pillar of the format were all but invalidated. Even Terminus, which isn't banned (nor, indeed, banable IMHO), suddenly (nearly) wiped Maverick off the map. Maverick has a season named after it, the Summer of Maverick.

[Dice_Box]

Does anyone need more than 1 Exploration/Gamble resolved? Once you have access to LftL, locking 1cc spells isn't backbreaking. I am well aware of Crop Rotation, Gamble and Exploration in the deck, but given that all but Rotation are T1 plays, I think Rotation is not only the weakest link, but the only card standing in the way of T2 Chalice from a strategic POV
Lem, I respect you greatly mate, but stop. You have no idea what your talking about. Do you need more than one Exploration or Gamble? No, but you need to Draw them. So you run 4 of each. Exploration is so important we run two extra sub standard versions.

As for Rotation being the weakest link, no, it's a powerhouse. If you think about it only as a card that grabs a combo piece it looks week but if you think about it as a Tabernacle, Wasteland or Karakas all in one... Sac a Land, solve target problem. I wrote that in my Primer and I was not joking.

The other thing is once the Engine is online you have no access to these cards unless you slow down. But you need them all to gain an advantage. So you must play multiples. You can't cut them.

Against combo when your brining in Chalice your normally cutting things like Maze, Manabond and Tabernacle. Gamble and what not stay in. Because the damage you do to them is greater than the damage you do to yourself and because you cut some fat. But with Combo at 18%, why kill your chances against 60ish% of the meta to fix up 18%? It's a bad plan.

[Lemnear]

Lem, I respect you greatly mate, but stop. You have no idea what your talking about. Do you need more than one Exploration or Gamble? No, but you need to Draw them. So you run 4 of each. Exploration is so important we run two extra sub standard versions.

As for Rotation being the weakest link, no, it's a powerhouse. If you think about it only as a card that grabs a combo piece it looks week but if you think about it as a Tabernacle, Wasteland or Karakas all in one... Sac a Land, solve target problem. I wrote that in my Primer and I was not joking.

The other thing is once the Engine is online you have no access to these cards unless you slow down. But you need them all to gain an advantage. So you must play multiples. You can't cut them.

Against combo when your brining in Chalice your normally cutting things like Maze, Manabond and Tabernacle. Gamble and what not stay in. Because the damage you do to them is greater than the damage you do to yourself and because you cut some fat. But with Combo at 18%, why kill your chances against 60ish% of the meta to fix up 18%? It's a bad plan.

Ok, but lets account the "you have to draw them" factor also applies for Chalice and that the Dredge of Loam will mill copies of the said cards too, making access to Exploration (if not in the opener) not more of an issue than maybe drawing it in the game AFTER one may dropped a Chalice.

I am well aware of the fuctionality/role of the cards, but the question is, if these cards are irreplacable or imcompatible with Chalice, given that Chalice is already played in the SB and no one claimed its unplayable because of Exploration/Gamble/Rotation. What's explorable is if the (quick) tools these three cards provide are more valuable than locking out like 75% of the metagames cantrip galore

[Dice_Box]

Simple answer? I do not care if your cantripping if your kill is Delver. I do not care to lock out your cantrips if I can lock your deck out with Wasteland, Tab, P Fire and Maze. Your thinking about one point of the spear thrust, but the deck is not fighting on that axis. I do not mind if a Shardless, Delver or Infect player has Cantrips at all. I care if Miracles or Storm have access to their key cards, not those other decks though.

I am not bringing in Chalice to stop decks that play Brainstorm, I am bringing them in to stop decks that play Lotus Petal.

Edit:
Chalice plays a role in different decks for different reasons. Eldrazi wants to lock out the format, Stompy wants the same, Lands wants to protect itself from unfair things that it can not race. The card is not a 2D item that does only one thing. It is both the sword in some decks and the shield in others. I do admit the card is evil, but really, other decks do far far worse. This card is good for the metagame in my eyes and is a useful tool to all who play it.

[Lemnear]

Simple answer? I do not care if your cantripping if your kill is Delver. I do not care to lock out your cantrips if I can lock your deck out with Wasteland, Tab, P Fire and Maze. Your thinking about one point of the spear thrust, but the deck is not fighting on that axis. I do not mind if a Shardless, Delver or Infect player has Cantrips at all. I care if Miracles or Storm have access to their key cards, not those other decks though.

I am not bringing in Chalice to stop decks that play Brainstorm, I am bringing them in to stop decks that play Lotus Petal.

Well presented argument. I agree with that

[Crimhead]

ya but the future as in give it time and we will all be playing blue because the best cards will hands down be blue. Blues color pie will just take over everything.
Blue has been getting some high quality beaters lately (namely Delver & TNN), but it seems astronomically unlikely that blue will ever get efficient removal (AD, Bolt, STP, etc). Also, utility creatures like DRS and SFM are a long way from being obsoleted. Then there's combo support. I can't see blue getting cards that will rival Reanimate, Exhume, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, etc. Given WotC's enthusiasm for printing combo support in any colour, this is extremely far fetched.



I think it's flatly impossible to predict the future of any Legacy deck (other than tempo being always with us) because Wizards can turn the world upside down with a single printing. Mental Misstep? Treasure Cruise? Entire strategies that had been the pillar of the format were all but invalidated. Even Terminus, which isn't banned (nor, indeed, banable IMHO), suddenly (nearly) wiped Maverick off the map. Maverick has a season named after it, the Summer of Maverick.

This is true. WotC might not want to support anything in Standard besides aggro and midrange, but sometimes they can print cards which support other archetypes in Legacy but not so much Standard or Modern. Cards like Past In Flames, Dark Petition, Molten Vortex, Shaman Of The Pact, etc.

Then there are the "mistakes" they make. DTT and MM were too much for Legacy, so they have no long term impact. But other "mistakes" have been a boon for Legacy. Eldrazis are a good example - who could have predicted that?

My concern with the effect of contemporary design on Legacy has always been that all the fair decks will gravitate towards aggro/tempo/midrange; with purer aggro and purer control being increasingly pushed to the fringe (or evolving into aggro-control). But I've been worried about this since Maverick Summer, and since then both Lands and Miracles have risen to tier one. So these days I don't worry about Legacy very much - I just enjoy it and hope that one day Enchantress will rise again!

[iatee]

Pretty sure not everyone agrees Eldrazi was a boon for legacy.

[Dice_Box]

Pretty sure not everyone agrees Eldrazi was a boon for legacy.
No one in Legacy agrees on anything. This is not exactly news.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

I dont get why people say aggro doesnt exist in the format? Burn is an example of a highly underrated aggro deck, burn is 100% pure aggro meaning it is the deck that best fits the definition of aggro and it is a competitive deck. And did everyone forget about Eldrazi, while not a pure aggro deck, it is an aggro deck nonetheless. Just because it runs disruption(Zoo runs removal) doesnt mean it isnt aggro.

Edit- @Iatee, we get that you dont like Eldrazi, youve mentioned it like 50 times. If you think its going to somehow get banned, 1. Many people enjoy playing the deck and 2. The deck isnt overly powerful or dominant so no it isnt going to get banned so stop talking about it...

[Crimhead]

Burn doesn't place in very many big events. There will always be aggro decks that are Legacy legal, but I think that's not the issue.
(For the record, I think Burn has more potential that it realises. Part of the problem is a complete drought of talented players who actually want to play it).

As for Eldrazi, I agree it's totally a aggro deck. I can only guess why people won't acknowledge this:
I get the impression that a lot of the fair deck enthusiasts (particularly the fair, blueless deck enthusiasts) really dont like laying Chalice. When Aggro Loam (in its current configuration) started putting up results I expected Maverick and Jund players to gleefully jump on it. Instead all I heard were complaints that they shouldn't "have to" play Chalice and that this only proves how horrible the Legacy meta is. Maybe aggro players simply dont want to play a Stompy deck with Chalice?
Some seem people hate Eldrazi Shops so much maybe they try their hardest not to even think about it?
I guess there are midrange and aggro players who want these archetypes to take on cantrip decks head on; not lock them out. Hard to say, really. People are funny.


Pretty sure not everyone agrees Eldrazi was a boon for legacy.It was certainly a boon for aggro and stompy players!

My point (actually Lormador's point with which I am agreeing) is that WotC can print things that accidentally create powerful decks or interactions in Legacy, and that it's therefore impossible to predict where design will take our meta.


No one in Legacy agrees on anything.Disagree! :tongue:

[iatee]

I get the impression that a lot of the fair deck enthusiasts (particularly the fair, blueless deck enthusiasts) really dont like laying Chalice. When Aggro Loam (in its current configuration) started putting up results I expected Maverick and Jund players to gleefully jump on it. Instead all I heard were complaints that they shouldn't "have to" play Chalice and that this only proves how horrible the Legacy meta is. Maybe aggro players simply dont want to play a Stompy deck with Chalice?
Some seem people hate Eldrazi Shops so much maybe they try their hardest not to even think about it?
[/LIST]I guess there are midrange and aggro players who want these archetypes to take on cantrip decks head on; not lock them out. Hard to say, really. People are funny.

Fair midrange players enjoy playing long and interactive games of magic..that's why they're playing fair midrange decks. Chalice decks don't lead to many of those games.

[Crimhead]

Eh?
When I play against decks with Chalice, long interactive decks are the norm (the main exception is when I get an early waste-lock going). The same is true when I'm playing a fair deck and I bring Chalce in myself.

In fact I find the majority of my games to be interactive and last at least several turns. On topic, I suspect Legacy going forward will continue to be defined by longer and more interactive games than the other major formats.

[iatee]

Are we talking about the same Chalice? For a lot of legacy decks, the card reads "You don't get to play Magic." That's exactly why you can build a deck around it.

[Julian23]

Looking at all these comments over the last pages, you can just 1:1 substitute Counterbalance and Chalice and it would still all make sense. Eldrazi is not exactly the kind of deck I'm happy about, but at least it's a thorn in Miracle's side. I'd rather live in this Legacy than in the one without Eldrazi.

[Crimhead]

Are we talking about the same Chalice? For a lot of legacy decks, the card reads "You don't get to play Magic." That's exactly why you can build a deck around it.
I have dropped turn one Chalice many a time, and never once did my opponent respond with a concession. Sometimes they even beat me. Is there a deck in this entire format that will scoop to a Chalice? Belcher notwithstanding.

I've heard it said that the average cc of cards ads played in Legacy has been creeping up a little (I haven't verified this). Maybe the future of Legacy will be more decks that can play through a Chalice?

[apple713]

I have dropped turn one Chalice many a time, and never once did my opponent respond with a concession. Sometimes they even beat me. Is there a deck in this entire format that will scoop to a Chalice? Belcher notwithstanding.

I've heard it said that the average cc of cards ads played in Legacy has been creeping up a little (I haven't verified this). Maybe the future of Legacy will be more decks that can play through a Chalice?

burn.

chalice is crippling to ALOT of decks for 1

[The Nobodys]

Chalice definitely does not mean "I don't get to play magic." It's a card that seeks to forfeit card advantage and selection in an attempt to create a longer game where interactions are more pivital. Having to have answers to cards like this is an extremely interesting sideboard/maindeck problem that in my oppinion strenthens a format filled with brainstorm.

[iatee]

I have dropped turn one Chalice many a time, and never once did my opponent respond with a concession. Sometimes they even beat me. Is there a deck in this entire format that will scoop to a Chalice? Belcher notwithstanding.


Few people immediately concede to a t1 Chalice, but the game is often effectively over. The card doesn't say 'PS Chalice does 20 damage to your opponent too' but the things that do the 20 damage don't really matter, which is why Stompy decks can toss in whatever fun garbage they want. Lock pieces are always the real win con.



I've heard it said that the average cc of cards ads played in Legacy has been creeping up a little (I haven't verified this). Maybe the future of Legacy will be more decks that can play through a Chalice?

Well, Eldrazi plays 4 and 5 drops and pushes a lot of Storm out of the format, so based on those two things alone the average cc should be creeping up.

[Zombie]

Eh?
When I play against decks with Chalice, long interactive decks are the norm (the main exception is when I get an early waste-lock going). The same is true when I'm playing a fair deck and I bring Chalce in myself.

In fact I find the majority of my games to be interactive and last at least several turns. On topic, I suspect Legacy going forward will continue to be defined by longer and more interactive games than the other major formats.

It's starting to feel like your only lens for grading decks is "how does this feel like to play against with Lands?". Of course everything under the Sun is treated as aggro by Lands - it's hardcore control that takes the defender role in just about every matchup under the Sun. Of course the games are interactive - half your deck isn't one-drops. If you're on RUG, a lot of your card selection is Intuition and Loam, and so on. It's a very narrow vantage point that just doesn't hold up for most other decks.

If you play midrange, other midrange and tempo decks tend to yield nice, interactive, nuanced games. Prison vs. combo is typically boring af (I still just can't even see what's fun in playing Chalice or "Tinker" decks like S&T where you play autowin cards, prison v. combo includes eg. postboard Elves vs. Storm oftentimes), tempo vs. combo (esp. Storm) is often interesting, etc.

[btm10]

Looking at all these comments over the last pages, you can just 1:1 substitute Counterbalance and Chalice and it would still all make sense.

Yep. The only positive thing about Miracles is that it stops the format from being overrun by Delver.



If you play midrange, other midrange and tempo decks tend to yield nice, interactive, nuanced games. Prison vs. combo is typically boring af (I still just can't even see what's fun in playing Chalice or "Tinker" decks like S&T where you play autowin cards, prison v. combo includes eg. postboard Elves vs. Storm oftentimes), tempo vs. combo (esp. Storm) is often interesting, etc.

The main attraction to Show and Tell decks is definitely the fact that their power level is so absurdly high that the deck just wins a ton of games on its own, which is variance minimizing in its own way. The same is true of Chalice decks.

[Crimhead]

It's starting to feel like your only lens for grading decks is "how does this feel like to play against with Lands?"Lands is what I play, and playing is my defence of the format.

But you'll note that I did mention being the Chalice player post board. What this should imply is that my experience with Chalice has not been confined to Chalice vs Lands, but also includes Chalice vs every other deck in the meta where ill board it in. And I'm telling you it doesn't shut my opponents down as thoroughly as you say. I bring Chalice and Sphere in vs Storm (sometimes seven total pieces) and still usually don't W both G2 & G3. Painter too - I bring in Chalice and still usually lose the match.



Of course the games are interactive - half your deck isn't one-drops.Gee, do you think so? :tonge:

Again, I see all kinds of matches as the Chalice player. Mentioning that my games against Chalice remain interactive was kind of tongue-in-cheek. I mean, it's pretty obvious, right?



If you play midrange, other midrange and tempo decks tend to yield nice, interactive, nuanced games. Prison vs. combo is typically boring afBe cool, bro.

[Zombie]

The main attraction to Show and Tell decks is definitely the fact that their power level is so absurdly high that the deck just wins a ton of games on its own, which is variance minimizing in its own way. The same is true of Chalice decks.

I'm just trying to figure out how someone could survive the abject boredom game after game.

[Crimhead]

I'm just trying to figure out how someone could survive the abject boredom game after game.
Maybe S&T.
But Elves or Painter are fascinating!
Even Storm or High Tide, while not the most interactive decks, can be full of interesting decisions.

[Zombie]

Maybe S&T.
But Elves or Painter are fascinating!
Even Storm or High Tide, while not the most interactive decks, can be full of interesting decisions.

I was pretty much talking I Win Button decks. S&T in general, Elves against nonblue decks, G1 Teeg vs. ANT, and so on.

[Crimhead]

I dabbled in Elves (had it sleeved up for a bit), and had lots of fun grindy games vs blue-less decks that throw me off with discard and/or removal. Or even Chalice for that matter!

[mistercakes]

it's fine to have the variety of decks, even if they may not seem fun. sometimes the value in keeping other decks in check is worth it alone.