[Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

[RobNC]

I played in our weekly last night with this deck for the first time, and while I didn't do well it was a lot of fun.

R1 I played against Dredge. G1 Only creature I was able to get out was Sire, and I misplayed later in the game forgetting Animate Dead can target their creatures too and discarded it. I got him down to 4 but having a single non-flyer really hurt, and I died to Ichorid beats while Flayer got chump blocked by zombie tokens half the time. G2 I landed Griselbrand and Chancellor pretty early and used Faerie Macabre to exile the single Grave Troll in his graveyard to buy myself time. Then a flying beatdown. G3 I was Flayer of the Hatebound combo'd out before I could do much.

R2 I played against Belcher. He scooped G1 after I put out a fatty T1, but then he comboed out both games 2 and 3, nothing I could really do.

R3 I had a bye, but plenty of other people around were just playing for fun so I got to test against the mirror match (stealing your opponent's Griselbrand with a Reanimate feels good ::tongue:), Nic Fit, and High Tide.

I was running 2 Badlands and 1 Bayou, I never felt like I needed more Badlands than that. I may switch to Scrubland instead of Bayou and consolidate by running 4 Wear / Tear or 4 Disenchant instead of a mix of Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence, since it'll save space for other goodies.

[gRR!!]

Thanks for the SB strategy guide gRR! That's sort of what I have been doing, IF I win G1. If I manage to lose G1 I believe I tend to bring in hate answers AND tactical answers for the deck I'm playing against. I'm pretty sure this is not really helping my chances and more shooting myself in the foot, diluting the deck's natural speed advantage.

What matchups do you bring in the two SB Thoughtseize, and what comes out for them?

Also Pithing Needle. I would have thought that would be a card for the Lands matchup, naming Thespian's Stage.

That's correct, I was assuming that we win G1. In case we lose G1 we will possibly be forced to sideboard more extensively. To be fair, this still hasn't happened to me :laugh:

Pithing vs Lands is correct, but I preferred to try a solution more definitive, while sideboarding as less as I could.

I would bring in Thoughtseize versus combo decks (ANT/Show and Tell variants mainly). In both cases I would probably side out a couple of Lootings and maybe I would side out Tyrant vs ANT (I was thinking about take out Brutalities, but the discard option is sexy here).

But again, I have played very few games with this version yet, so use your best judgment here :smile:

[Zooligan]

In case we lose G1 we will possibly be forced to sideboard more extensively. To be fair, this still hasn't happened to me :laugh:

You are probably better at evaluating mulligan decisions than I am. I feel like I am getting better, but it's a learning curve thing.

So, if we do lose G1, what do you think is more important, the hate answers or the tactical answers for the matchup? I mean, if they beat you with the deck pre-SB, that would suggest the tactical answers are more important. However, if they land a hate card you are not prepared for, you are just done. And if you put both in, you may not be able to go off before the stick it to you one way or the other. Man, legacy is tough... :tongue:

You used to play the version with Unmask, right? Do you think the version with Collective Brutality is better? Unmask stripping a threat while binning a creature seems really, really good. I do find myself wishing I could run 8 Entomb, and that seems pretty close, maybe even better. Wish it were not so pricey online.

[RobNC]

You used to play the version with Unmask, right? Do you think the version with Collective Brutality is better? Unmask stripping a threat while binning a creature seems really, really good. I do find myself wishing I could run 8 Entomb, and that seems pretty close, maybe even better. Wish it were not so pricey online.

Unmask exiles the black card to cast, not discards. Collective Brutality is what you can use to bin a creature, although you can still strip an instant or sorcery.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Unmask exiles the black card to cast, not discards. Collective Brutality is what you can use to bin a creature, although you can still strip an instant or sorcery.

Yeah, exactly this ^ which is unfortunate, as Unmask would be an auto 4x include if that weren't the case :tongue:

Right now I'm finding Collective Brutality to be quite good! I love it when I can 2 for 1 and steal a spell + kill a delver or deathrite but I find even the ability to throw a creature to the bin and take a spell is well worth it's slot.

My biggest difficulty is the SB

What Im running atm:

2 Blood Moon
2 Thoughtseize
2 Sneak Attack
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast (Been also trying +1 Surgical Extraction in this slot)
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Faerie Macabre

So far, seems ok? But I have no idea what I'm doing, happy this thread exists lol :laugh:

[Doneval]

I just finished reading through all 13 pages and I saw the different sideboards mentioned multiple times, but never a really good discussion and/or consensus about it.

If you're running the deck in today's meta, which sideboard plan do you prefer and why:
1. Sneak Attack
2. Show and Tell
3. Kill their graveyard hate

[Zooligan]

Oh shiz! My bad. I thought it discarded. F- that then...

[lucksack_delver_flip]

I just finished reading through all 13 pages and I saw the different sideboards mentioned multiple times, but never a really good discussion and/or consensus about it.

If you're running the deck in today's meta, which sideboard plan do you prefer and why:
1. Sneak Attack
2. Show and Tell
3. Kill their graveyard hate

I prefer the "no fear" plan of boarding in more relevant fatties (think Elesh Norn for Elves) and not making my deck/mana worse by going in on enchantment hate or Show and Tell. I have played Sneak Attack before but never really wanted to board it in unless I saw some heinous SB hate like Leyline of the Void. No one seems to be respecting this deck by playing that card anyway, and more traditional enchantment hate is too slow to really interact with us (Rest in Peace). Current SB configuration is the following:

3 Pithing Needle (primarily for Karakas)
2 Sire of Insanity (2 in MD)
2 Thoughtseize (2 in MD)
4 Ingot Chewer (concession to T1 Chalice)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (for Storm and mirror)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (for Elves, probably Infect, maybe Delver)
1 Blazing Archon (For Infect -- better than Elesh Norn because of Crop Rotation + Karakas package post board)
1 Inkwell Leviathan (For Lands)

[splorf]

I just finished reading through all 13 pages and I saw the different sideboards mentioned multiple times, but never a really good discussion and/or consensus about it.

If you're running the deck in today's meta, which sideboard plan do you prefer and why:
1. Sneak Attack
2. Show and Tell
3. Kill their graveyard hate

4. Stronghold Gambit :laugh:

I play a version without SSG, but more discard. Against creature heavy decks the opponents often try to empty their hands fast after dropping their hate. This is where Gambit shined for me. Against almost every other deck I usually bring in anti-hate and try to disrupt them. I'm not sure, if it's correct. Leyline of the Void was my nemesis so far, every other hate felt manageable.

[Darksteel]

So I usually play U/B Reanimator, but for a tournament this weekend I want to try the faster R/B. Chancellor of the Annex looks hilariously good.

I was actually going to ask which version was more popular: Unmask or Collective Brutality. gRR's list looks pretty good, so I may just run that 75. When you bring in cards, do you generally just shave numbers of the combo pieces? Got a sideboard guide, perhaps? :P

One thing I noticed was that some lists I saw were running Insolent Neonate. Those would clearly supplement Faithless Looting, but what would it replace?

[xix]

So I usually play U/B Reanimator, but for a tournament this weekend I want to try the faster R/B. Chancellor of the Annex looks hilariously good.

I was actually going to ask which version was more popular: Unmask or Collective Brutality. gRR's list looks pretty good, so I may just run that 75. When you bring in cards, do you generally just shave numbers of the combo pieces? Got a sideboard guide, perhaps? :P

One thing I noticed was that some lists I saw were running Insolent Neonate. Those would clearly supplement Faithless Looting, but what would it replace?

Both lists have put up results and its still out on which version is better. I am on a similar list to gRR's right now, but I do miss the ability that unmask gives me being both a way to pitch a card or using it to take a card from their hand.

My only shift from his list is:
-1 Badlands
-1 Mountain
+1 Fetch
+Scrubland - this week testing for wear//tear in sideboard, otherwise it was bayou, or swamp/badlands

-1 Sire
+1 Archtype of Endurance

I run 2 Collective Brutality so last spot is
+1 Free spot for 3rd Collective Brutality/Animate Dead/Thoughtseize/Unmask #1 (testing unmask in this spot right now for the extra discard, also fine with Animate dead here as well, shuffle rng has been favoring no reanimate effects for my draws this past few weeks :()
-3rd Brutality is most likely correct, but unmask has never let me down on being just awesome,


What you cut is based on your matchup, I cut collective brutality/thoughtseize/-1 exhume/-1 reanimate. Creature cuts usually falls around -1 GB at least maybe another creature, for the sideboard creatures you want to bring in like blazing archon vs eldrazi, elesh norn, iona, I like to keep 3 GB in at all times,

If they are an abrupt decay deck I trim animate dead next for whatever next card you bring in. I feel like the core deck is plenty fast and can race out most hate so might as well stick to that.

[Firö]

Played in a local 1K today. First time ever playing the deck, been super hyped about it since I saw the list before Eternal weekend with Unmasks and Sire of Insanity. Played the Michael like from Eternal Weekend.

The two matches I lost today were to insane draws by Shardless BUG and then my own misplay against DnT of reanimating Tidesprout Tyrant instead of Chacnellor of the Annex.

That being said, I'm not quite sure I understnad how to sideboard. I never wanted to see sneak attack and rarely saw very effective hate other than Containment Priest or deathrite shaman. Is playing sideboard removal bad like snuff out or just overloading on threats like I saw higher up in the thread with more sire of insantiy in the sideboard?

[gRR!!]

Hey there folks,

4-2'd yesterday at Catalan Legacy League with the BR Reanimator list I've been playing last weeks, finishing 14th from 60 players. I have a lot of comments to say, but today I don't have the time. I'll try to write some thoughts tomorrow. Just one thing: This deck is really, really good, regardlessly of the version (SSG or not, Unmask or not, creature selection). By now I'll just post a better picture of my version :tongue:

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb224/gRR_RRg/Pimp%20MtG/BR%20Reanimator%202_zpscsfuf0xf.jpg

More about this tomorrow, I hope!

[sco0ter]

Hi,

I get interested in the Reanimator archetype.

Looking at RB and UB lists, I wonder what's the real reason to play red over blue splash in this archetype.

Most RB lists only play Faithless Looting as the only red spell (in the mainboard).

Careful Study does the same job, doesn't it? (well, except the lack of flashback, but does it really matter?)

Some lists play Insolent Neonate, but Hapless Researcher is better, because you draw before you discard.

The opening post (primer) doesn't provide any arguments other than budget reason (Badlands being cheaper than Underground Sea).

Then there's this list mentioned in the primer:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/442856#paper
Red only for Faithless Looting, no red cards in SB, but instead blue cards in SB. Why not play Careful Study with a better mana base then?

Is flashbacking Faithless Looting so important, do you do it often?
Is hardcasting Sire of Insanity a valid reason for R over U?
Are red SB options like Sneak Attack or Stronghold Gambit really more powerful than blue ones like Show and Tell? (=> don't feel better to me, and to the author of above's deck neither)

I know there's also the Burning Wish variant, but it feels like another deck for me. More storm orienteed, similar to TinFins.

So please let me understand why this deck (or rathert he Reanimator archetype) should play red over blue.

[Dice_Box]

Blood Moon, Sneak Attack, REB and Pyroblast.

[Fatal]

Probably main reason why red splash is simple - explosive mana thanks to SSG as petal 5-8 - if blue would have card like that red splash wouldn't be necessary.

[Ingo]

Hi,

I get interested in the Reanimator archetype.

Looking at RB and UB lists, I wonder what's the real reason to play red over blue splash in this archetype.

.

Rather than comparing colors, you should compare blueshell consistency (pondrr, brainstorm, fow, daze, careful study) versus speed. If you trade the blueshell for speed and disruption, you are almost completely independant of any other color than black. Safe for one card, which is faithless looting, and you really need such an effect. And looting is slightly better than c-study, hence a redsplash.

Blue doesnt offer that much in the sideboard safe for show and tell, and even UB reanimatordecks do not always play the card (blowing up or disabling hate is quicker and sometimes uncounterable, and leaves you with a better longterm strategy than trying a oneshot bypass with a counterable show and tell)

[RobNC]

Insolent Neonate has discard as part of the ability's cost. Hapless Researcher has discard as part of the ability so it can be stifled. Sometimes relevant, just like how discarding with Collective Brutality is part of a cost and thus cannot be stifled.

And while I've only played one event with this deck I did find flashback on Looting useful since it is your only card to dig with.

[Quentin Coldman]

Hi,
Looking at RB and UB lists, I wonder what's the real reason to play red over blue splash in this archetype.


There are two main reasons as far as I know:

1. Early tempo lists played Anger for Haste, so red over blue was necessary.

2. The deck is very very cheap if u complain it to UB lists because u need Badland instead of Usea and no other expensive stuff like Force or Show and Tell.

Sure Faithless Looting is better than Careful Study (and YES flashback matters) and Simian Spirit Guide is also very nice, but that are not the main reasons for red over blue. Now it became kind of tradition, that tempo reanimator is BR, but it's definitly possible to try out blue over red or 3c lists, I'd try them out myself but I have no Useas and will never buy some.

[DNSolver]

Hi,

The opening post (primer) doesn't provide any arguments other than budget reason (Badlands being cheaper than Underground Sea).

[...]

So please let me understand why this deck (or rathert he Reanimator archetype) should play red over blue.

Read the primer again. I have a section near the top that addressed this. This is a completely different deck than UB Reanimator and plays very differently, especially with Griselbrand.

Also, flashback Looting is very good. Entomb -> Faithless Looting is a strong play when you get flooded on Entombs, creatures, or lands.

[sco0ter]

Ok, thanks for your answers. I will just work on some lists.

One new card, I just saw: Cathartic Reunion

Is it too slow at 1R? Otherwise it feels at least worth a test, no?

[RobNC]

...
Also, flashback Looting is very good. Entomb -> Faithless Looting is a strong play when you get flooded on Entombs, creatures, or lands.

I did this once when I had a hand full of reanimation spells and my one-of targets (like Iona or Elesh Norn) but no way to get the targets into my graveyard. Entomb Looting, flash it back, then reanimate!

[KnightJay96]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109748

Deck top 4'ed a scg classic. The list has unmask in it (listed as unmake). Thoughts lads?

[xix]

Ok, thanks for your answers. I will just work on some lists.

One new card, I just saw: Cathartic Reunion

Is it too slow at 1R? Otherwise it feels at least worth a test, no?

Yes too slow, also no flashback, next reply answers


I did this once when I had a hand full of reanimation spells and my one-of targets (like Iona or Elesh Norn) but no way to get the targets into my graveyard. Entomb Looting, flash it back, then reanimate!

I have entomb looting as well / flashback looting several times, its a very strong line that should not be overlooked. In fact maybe 30% of my games have this happen.


http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109748

Deck top 4'ed a scg classic. The list has unmask in it (listed as unmake). Thoughts lads?

Original post was the unmask list, the SSG list sans burning wish was the direction that the list that won over in Europe ran.


Unmask version has more discard
SSG list is more all in

Both lists are very good and I don't know if one list is better than the other...
The real question is what sideboards are the best if you read up a few posts we have 3 versions of sideboards now.

[Surfinbird]

Hey there folks,

4-2'd yesterday at Catalan Legacy League with the BR Reanimator list I've been playing last weeks, finishing 14th from 60 players. I have a lot of comments to say, but today I don't have the time. I'll try to write some thoughts tomorrow. Just one thing: This deck is really, really good, regardlessly of the version (SSG or not, Unmask or not, creature selection). By now I'll just post a better picture of my version :tongue:

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb224/gRR_RRg/Pimp%20MtG/BR%20Reanimator%202_zpscsfuf0xf.jpg

More about this tomorrow, I hope!

Nice deck Roger, you are my favourite old & bald magic player! See you soon :P

[ChaliceOfTheVoid]

Hey all, first time poster here. I've lurked for a bit though. I decided to finally buy into Legacy and thought B/R Reanimator looked sweet (and somewhat reasonable in price). I just finished it last week. My first time playing Legacy was actually this past weekend at the SCG Classic. Got the last cards I needed the day before and thought I'd go. I placed 4th :) Had an absolute blast. This primer and the folks on this thread helped a lot and I just wanted to say thanks :)

[RhoxWarMonk]

Hey all, first time poster here. I've lurked for a bit though. I decided to finally buy into Legacy and thought B/R Reanimator looked sweet (and somewhat reasonable in price). I just finished it last week. My first time playing Legacy was actually this past weekend at the SCG Classic. Got the last cards I needed the day before and thought I'd go. I placed 4th :) Had an absolute blast. This primer and the folks on this thread helped a lot and I just wanted to say thanks :)

We were just discussing the SCG Classic open 4th place list, welcome to the forum :)

What were your matches? Would you make any changes at all to the main or SB?

Any comments about the event, etc?

Welcome to legacy, the only problem with it... it's gonna be hard to go back to other formats now, once you get a taste LOL (IMO) :cool:

[ChaliceOfTheVoid]

We were just discussing the SCG Classic open 4th place list, welcome to the forum :)

What were your matches? Would you make any changes at all to the main or SB?

Any comments about the event, etc?

Welcome to legacy, the only problem with it... it's gonna be hard to go back to other formats now, once you get a taste LOL (IMO) :cool:

Thanks for the welcome :)

My matches in the swiss were Shardless BUG (loss), Miracles x 2 (win x 2), Nic Fit (win), Ooze Reanimator (win), and Elves (win). All the wins were pretty straightforward. Had a several turn 1 Griselbrands into draws of Thoughtseize / Unmask which let me shred my opponent's opener. Had a turn one Tidespout Tyrant against Elves and just kept bouncing his board of Bayou and dork every turn. Had turn two Iona naming white against Nic Fit. Also had some turn 1 or 2 Griselbrands into other fatties which made opponents scoop. Lost the round against Shardless BUG due to deathrite game 1 and Scavenging Ooze and Surgical Extraction game 2.

For the top 8 I played Sneak and Show in the quarterfinals (win) and Storm in the semifinals (loss). Against Sneak and Show i won game 1 pretty easily. Game 2 I got to cast 2 Stronghold Gambit for the win :) Game 1 against Storm I was one attack away from the win and he combo'd me. Game two I mulled to 4 (awful draws) and just lost (bad luck, oh well).

The only change I would make is that I would probably move Elesh Norn to the sideboard, but I suppose that I might keep it MD and move something else depending on the other decks I expect to face. Didn't know what to expect for this event and just decided to go with 11 creatures and drop an Animate Dead.

The event had 53 players I believe. Had most of the usual suspects I suppose. Saw some Gixis Delver, a few U/B Reanimator, Death and Taxes, etc.. There was one other B/R Reanimator player there, but I think he didn't fair so well (I think he was 3-3, but I don't remember exactly). On the whole I think I lucked out in that my matchups weren't bad at all really.

Made quite a few play mistakes over the course of the tournament. I was really bad about Chancellor triggers. Oh well, still have a lot to learn :)

I have to say that the best card for me at the Classic was Unmask by far. It just did everything! Binned fatties for the turn one Reanimate, cleared hands so I could combo safely, and helped strip hands after drawing it off of Griselbrand activations. Super fun card to cast.

I think you're right about the fact that it will be hard to go back to other formats :) Had a ton of fun in my first outing :) Very much looking forward to jamming more Legacy in the future. Glad I finally hopped the fence.

[FZA]

Hey there folks,

4-2'd yesterday at Catalan Legacy League with the BR Reanimator list I've been playing last weeks, finishing 14th from 60 players. I have a lot of comments to say, but today I don't have the time. I'll try to write some thoughts tomorrow. Just one thing: This deck is really, really good, regardlessly of the version (SSG or not, Unmask or not, creature selection). By now I'll just post a better picture of my version :tongue:

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb224/gRR_RRg/Pimp%20MtG/BR%20Reanimator%202_zpscsfuf0xf.jpg

More about this tomorrow, I hope!

Is that a Necropotence in there (Near bottom right) o_O? No wonder you did so well :P

What are everyone's thoughts on Unmask vs Collective Brutality? Also, which matchups are the Blood Moons and Sneak Attacks for, and what do you remove for them?

I've been trying out this deck in the past couple of days and the list seems so tight, every card performs an important function in nearly every matchup, so I'm hesitant to sideboard out more than 1-2 cards. What are usually the main cards to remove, other than reanimation targets?

[RhoxWarMonk]

Thanks for the welcome :)

My matches in the swiss were Shardless BUG (loss), Miracles x 2 (win x 2), Nic Fit (win), Ooze Reanimator (win), and Elves (win). All the wins were pretty straightforward. Had a several turn 1 Griselbrands into draws of Thoughtseize / Unmask which let me shred my opponent's opener. Had a turn one Tidespout Tyrant against Elves and just kept bouncing his board of Bayou and dork every turn. Had turn two Iona naming white against Nic Fit. Also had some turn 1 or 2 Griselbrands into other fatties which made opponents scoop. Lost the round against Shardless BUG due to deathrite game 1 and Scavenging Ooze and Surgical Extraction game 2.

For the top 8 I played Sneak and Show in the quarterfinals (win) and Storm in the semifinals (loss). Against Sneak and Show i won game 1 pretty easily. Game 2 I got to cast 2 Stronghold Gambit for the win :) Game 1 against Storm I was one attack away from the win and he combo'd me. Game two I mulled to 4 (awful draws) and just lost (bad luck, oh well).

The only change I would make is that I would probably move Elesh Norn to the sideboard, but I suppose that I might keep it MD and move something else depending on the other decks I expect to face. Didn't know what to expect for this event and just decided to go with 11 creatures and drop an Animate Dead.

The event had 53 players I believe. Had most of the usual suspects I suppose. Saw some Gixis Delver, a few U/B Reanimator, Death and Taxes, etc.. There was one other B/R Reanimator player there, but I think he didn't fair so well (I think he was 3-3, but I don't remember exactly). On the whole I think I lucked out in that my matchups weren't bad at all really.

Made quite a few play mistakes over the course of the tournament. I was really bad about Chancellor triggers. Oh well, still have a lot to learn :)

I have to say that the best card for me at the Classic was Unmask by far. It just did everything! Binned fatties for the turn one Reanimate, cleared hands so I could combo safely, and helped strip hands after drawing it off of Griselbrand activations. Super fun card to cast.

I think you're right about the fact that it will be hard to go back to other formats :) Had a ton of fun in my first outing :) Very much looking forward to jamming more Legacy in the future. Glad I finally hopped the fence.

Thanks for the feedback, always great to hear people are enjoying legacy :)

One comment but how were you binning a creature with unmask? It gets exiled, no? That's why I have been using collective brutality instead. Still let's me look at their hand and strip a card while not exiling the card I pitch to it, allowing me to setup a reanimate or exhume next turn.

[zangoasyl]

Thanks for the feedback, always great to hear people are enjoying legacy :)

One comment but how were you binning a creature with unmask? It gets exiled, no? That's why I have been using collective brutality instead. Still let's me look at their hand and strip a card while not exiling the card I pitch to it, allowing me to setup a reanimate or exhume next turn.
You just have to target yourself :-)

[ChaliceOfTheVoid]

Thanks for the feedback, always great to hear people are enjoying legacy :)

One comment but how were you binning a creature with unmask? It gets exiled, no? That's why I have been using collective brutality instead. Still let's me look at their hand and strip a card while not exiling the card I pitch to it, allowing me to setup a reanimate or exhume next turn.

Unmask states "target player's hand" so you can target yourself.

As an example of a few turns I had at the tournament:

Opening hand of (or something similar to) land, land, Griselbrand, Tidespout Tyrant, Unmask, Exhume, and Reanimate

Turn one: land -> Unmask (targeting myself and exiling Exhume) discarding Griselbrand -> Reanimate

[Quentin Coldman]

What are everyone's thoughts on Unmask vs Collective Brutality?
...
What are usually the main cards to remove, other than reanimation targets?

Why not run both? I play Unmask main and Brutality in the sideboard and I'm very happy with it, because in most cases I just want the card as a flexible removal with upside against decks like Delver with Shaman, Elves, Miracles, Blade and other decks where I fear Shaman or Containment Priest. The thing is before boarding beeing fast is the most important thing and Unmask costs zero mana and Brutality 2. After boarding when sometimes grindig is more important Brutality becomes more powerful.

Usual cards to board out are some discard, some Simian Spirit Guides, maybe 1 Reanimationsspell (only if u run 12 or bring in Sneak/Stronghold Gambit), it's also okay to go down on 9 creatures. But like always everything belongs on the opponent deck.

[Kraus]

The only thing about Unmasking yourself is to remember that your opponent gets to see your whole hand.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=416757

[Ling]

Hi guys!!

Could anyone explain me how to use Stronghold Gambit? I think I might have an idea but to me I´ve always thought Sneak Attack is much better than SG

Anyways I love this deck and I feel I´m not gonna get tired of it ever

Thanks a lot !!

[RhoxWarMonk]

You just have to target yourself :-)

Oh that makes perfect sense, I just misunderstood the original post :)

The only drawback to that is having to show your opponent your hand, as was mentioned, but it's quite possible it'll be far too late to matter at that point.

In other news, I really enjoy this deck. Played a bunch of matches against Eldrazi and did quite well overall. LotV is a complete bitch though but it basically nearly forces them to mulligan for it, and then I just play sneak attack and go over top. They can still get the nut draws though and CotV is a very serious issue. Thinking of adding in some Ingot Chewers to my SB to get around that. Thoughts? Finding SB room isn't exactly easy though :frown:

EDIT: Watch out for Warping Wail

[xix]

Hi guys!!

Could anyone explain me how to use Stronghold Gambit? I think I might have an idea but to me I´ve always thought Sneak Attack is much better than SG

Anyways I love this deck and I feel I´m not gonna get tired of it ever

Thanks a lot !!

It lets you put a creature in vs decks that don't often have creatures without using the graveyard.

[TheStalk]

Hello all, first time poster here! I've been testing the deck online for about a week and I'm still trying to figure out the best configuration. I've tried both versions (Collective Brutality/Unmask), and still haven't been able to figure out if there's really a "best" one. I've found Unmask gives me a more consistent turn-1 fatty, but because it's very resource intensive (needs Unmask + black card which isn't your only fatty/reanimation spell) and massive card disadvantage, I've found it tends to fold a bit more to FoW (assuming no Chancellor in the opener obviously). Has anyone tested both versions extensively? Unfortunately almost all the information I've found (I've read this whole thread and scoured Reddit, among other things) is from people who've played only 1 version, and obviously their view is that their version is better (since otherwise they'd just switch, given that it isn't a huge financial hit).

My other problem is the sideboard. I've noticed in this thread as well that the jury still seems to be out on going W splash, G splash or no splash/Sneak Attack/Blood Moon plan. A quick summary of my thought process on the matter:

- As other have pointed out, against decks packing (or potentially packing) hate in the form of artifact AND enchantments, Wear//Tear seems like a clear winner, rather than siding in 3-4 copies of two different cards (which also runs the risk of opening RevSilence vs. Chalice or Decay vs. Leyline). This pushes me towards the W splash.

- However, against decks that run hate that ISN'T Leyline, Abrupt Decay seems so much better, being that a) it can't be countered and more importantly b) it hits creatures, which Wear//Tear does not. If running the white splash, is Collective Brutality sufficient to deal with Containment Priest/Deathrite Shaman?

- Most confusing of all (to me) is the Sneak Attack plan. My problem here is two-fold. First, as others have said, I'm unsure what to trim to bring Sneak in. Second, I fear it makes the deck lose focus. When I've got both reanimation spells and Sneak Attack in the deck, what's my plan? For example: my opener contains a fatty, sneak attack, faithless looting and some mana (but not enough to cast SA on turn 1 or 2, otherwise there's obviously no debate). Do I bin the fatty with the Looting, hoping to draw into a reanimation spell, or do I hold it until I find the mana to Sneak it in?

Right now I'm leaning towards playing the Unmask build, W splash, with 3 Collective Brutality in the sideboard. My logic being that in the worst case scenario where I expect to play against two types of hate that can't be hit by the same card, my plan is much more intact if I board in Wear//Tear and Brutality than when I bring in RevSilence and Decay, since at least Brutality isn't purely reactive and actually helps to further plan A.

I'd love to hear some thoughts from those with more experience with the deck, assuming you made it through my (hopefully somewhat coherent) rambling. :)

[Zooligan]

The only thing about Unmasking yourself is to remember that your opponent gets to see your whole hand.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=416757

Same as Thoughtseize. But if you bin and reanimate before they even get a land down...

[Zooligan]

Right now I'm leaning towards playing the Unmask build, W splash, with 3 Collective Brutality in the sideboard. My logic being that in the worst case scenario where I expect to play against two types of hate that can't be hit by the same card, my plan is much more intact if I board in Wear//Tear and Brutality than when I bring in RevSilence and Decay, since at least Brutality isn't purely reactive and actually helps to further plan A.

That's my plan for paper. Unmask is silly expensive online right now.

[Wess]

Collective Brutality is definitely the way to go, I find it to be far superior to Unmask and I am always happy to see the card. It's a maindeck answer to hatebears/DRS, pitches your fatty while taking the counterspell at the same time. With Dark ritual, it can be just as explosive turn 1, though, usually not.

Unmask really isn't a great card, I see it more of as a fad. The card loss is extreme, you never really want to be using it on yourself, and its terrible after turn 3. I've been playing the deck grinding Competative Legacy Leagues, and the amount of games that go midrange and grindy is pretty significant, where collective brutality is great, it can instantly turn the game around. BUG, Miracles, Delver, D&T, etc can have a hatebear out, counterspell in hand, and then tap out and play aggressively, where a Collective Brutality just blows them out.

As for splash, G is the most optimal choice in the current MTGO meta.

Cheers.

[pnutbutr]

Tried this deck out in an MTGO league last night and had great results.

Lost my last match in the mirror, however. I'm curious how you guys would handle this situation...


Turn 2 and I have churned through a decent amount of my deck with turn one Fairhless and turn two flash back. Found fatties but no Reanimation spell. Opponent goes land pass. He has nothing of any consequence in his GY but had like 5 cards in hand.

My hand is Entomb, Griselbrand, 2x Chancellor. I have 2 Badlands in play.

I decided to cast Entomb at the end of his turn because I figure thats the only way I can reanimate something on my turn.

Options for Entomb: Griselbrand, Chancellor, Sire, Iona, Blazing Archon

I decide to go with Archon since it would hurt the least if I brick on reanimation spell and he steals my guy on the next turn. I then rip the Reanimate on my draw and go for it.

On his turn he Entombs Iona and Reanimates it naming black, locking me out of the game.

Should I have tried to Entomb my own Iona instead of the Archon or would I have been better off just sitting and waiting without playing that EOT Entomb?

[Octopusman]

I originally played reanimator with Sutured Ghoul and Dragon Breath.
Thinking about picking this up, but it definitely seems like flavor of the month. Chancellor of the Annex is already going up a little bit every day.

If more people start playing this deck, what sideboard strategies can they employ to blow this deck out? Outside of Leyline of the Void and Faerie Macabre, it seems difficult to combat as Deathrite, RiP, Ooze, etc seem too slow. Even Relic or Crypt are too slow on the draw.
Appreciate feedback on this.

Also, I hate foils. Are we going to see non-foil versions of this decks' staples spike harder than FTV?

[CabalTherapy]

I played this deck yesterday and although it was kind of ok, 2-0 Grixis Delver, 2-0 Miracles, 2-0 Dredge, 0-2 4c Delver, I got bored with this deck's playstyle. There is so little one can do. Well, but I played the 4 Chancellor, 4 Griselbrand, 1 Children of Korlis, 1 Tendrils of Agony version with 2 Thoughtseize, 2 CBrutality, and 4 SSG. I am pretty sure that this version is better than the Sire/Iona/Tyrant stuff because of various reasons but primarily not using the combat step is a huge upside. Additionally, drawing cards and winning on the same turn is so much better than reanimating Tyrants and Sires. Recently I saw some miserable plays in a 6round paper tournament by a BR player (I was on ANT) next to my table... him losing to Burn because he exhumed Chancellor instead of Griselbrand; hilarious moment. Only other creature I'd play is Elesh in the SB. Good luck with the deck guys.

[TheStalk]

Collective Brutality is definitely the way to go, I find it to be far superior to Unmask and I am always happy to see the card. It's a maindeck answer to hatebears/DRS, pitches your fatty while taking the counterspell at the same time. With Dark ritual, it can be just as explosive turn 1, though, usually not.

Unmask really isn't a great card, I see it more of as a fad. The card loss is extreme, you never really want to be using it on yourself, and its terrible after turn 3. I've been playing the deck grinding Competative Legacy Leagues, and the amount of games that go midrange and grindy is pretty significant, where collective brutality is great, it can instantly turn the game around. BUG, Miracles, Delver, D&T, etc can have a hatebear out, counterspell in hand, and then tap out and play aggressively, where a Collective Brutality just blows them out.

As for splash, G is the most optimal choice in the current MTGO meta.

Cheers.

Interesting, thanks for your reply. I only play in paper however, I don't know if that should make a big difference in which splash is better. Care to share your sideboard? Most importantly, how do you SB in match-ups where you need to bring in both Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence (is Eldrazi the only one?) With so many cards to bring in, I just don't know what to take out of the deck without making it too inconsistent.

[Ingo]

- As other have pointed out, against decks packing (or potentially packing) hate in the form of artifact AND enchantments, Wear//Tear seems like a clear winner, rather than siding in 3-4 copies of two different cards (which also runs the risk of opening RevSilence vs. Chalice or Decay vs. Leyline). This pushes me towards the W splash.


What about Nature's Claim instead of Wear/Tear or Reverent Silence? It's cheaper than Wear, it's green so can be played in the side along with Abrupt Decay, and can be cast of a Petal (whereas RSilence in freemode cannot). The life your opponent gets probably buys him an additional turn, that's definitely a disadvantage, but RSilence does that too.

EDIT: Wear//Tear is better though versus decks with Leyline and Chalice (Eldrazi, 4C-loam).

[zangoasyl]

What about Nature's Claim instead of Wear/Tear or Reverent Silence? It's cheaper than Wear, it's green so can be played in the side along with Abrupt Decay, and can be cast of a Petal (whereas RSilence in freemode cannot). The life your opponent gets probably buys him an additional turn, that's definitely a disadvantage, but RSilence does that too.

EDIT: Wear//Tear is better though versus decks with Leyline and Chalice (Eldrazi, 4C-loam).
It is better against chalice on its own as well because most opponents will set CotV to one...

[Deadtwo]

I've been doing well with this deck recently. Im using the Legacy Champs Paris build. In the primer it says to go for Griselbrand most of the time as the first creature but I've been having more success with reanimating Sire as my first. Anyone else experiencing the same?

[tarmogoat]

I've been doing well with this deck recently. Im using the Legacy Champs Paris build. In the primer it says to go for Griselbrand most of the time as the first creature but I've been having more success with reanimating Sire as my first. Anyone else experiencing the same?

It's not necessarily a bad play to go for the sire straight on, but it's open to be removed with the trigger on the stack by any deck that can rebuild faster than you (like delver or elves or blue decks) so both players are now on top deck mode only you have to re-assemble the combo without access to brainstorms and ponders (aka library manipulation/draw filtering). Going for brand almost always guarantees you'll be able to draw seven and pressure the opponent to have an answer every turn.

[Zooligan]

It's not necessarily a bad play to go for the sire straight on, but it's open to be removed with the trigger on the stack by any deck that can rebuild faster than you (like delver or elves or blue decks) so both players are now on top deck mode only you have to re-assemble the combo without access to brainstorms and ponders (aka library manipulation/draw filtering). Going for brand almost always guarantees you'll be able to draw seven and pressure the opponent to have an answer every turn.

If you know what they are playing, however, and it's not a fast rebuilder, SoI can be a very strong T1 play.

[tarmogoat]

If you know what they are playing, however, and it's not a fast rebuilder, SoI can be a very strong T1 play.

Exactly, that's why I said 'it's not necessarily a bad play', and this is especially true on games 2/3.

BTW, I'm not sure if it's been explored yet, or not even conceivable, but has Burning Wish been tested? Seems good to bring in Massacre and Meltdown/Pulverize. Also putting in a copy of Reanimate, which can prove game winning in a mirror match by reanimating a discarded fatty on the other side of the table. It also enables to play a Duress in the main and an Unmask in the board. It also brings in Stronghold Gambit to beat GY hate.
It does slow the deck's average go-for-it turn (which is the main reason to play BR instead of UB), but I don't know might be worth it.

[sco0ter]

BTW, I'm not sure if it's been explored yet, or not even conceivable, but has Burning Wish been tested?

Yes, it has its own thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28206-Burning-Reanimator

[Wess]

Tried this deck out in an MTGO league last night and had great results.

Lost my last match in the mirror, however. I'm curious how you guys would handle this situation...


Turn 2 and I have churned through a decent amount of my deck with turn one Fairhless and turn two flash back. Found fatties but no Reanimation spell. Opponent goes land pass. He has nothing of any consequence in his GY but had like 5 cards in hand.

My hand is Entomb, Griselbrand, 2x Chancellor. I have 2 Badlands in play.

I decided to cast Entomb at the end of his turn because I figure thats the only way I can reanimate something on my turn.

Options for Entomb: Griselbrand, Chancellor, Sire, Iona, Blazing Archon

I decide to go with Archon since it would hurt the least if I brick on reanimation spell and he steals my guy on the next turn. I then rip the Reanimate on my draw and go for it.

On his turn he Entombs Iona and Reanimates it naming black, locking me out of the game.

Should I have tried to Entomb my own Iona instead of the Archon or would I have been better off just sitting and waiting without playing that EOT Entomb?

Your game was probably against me :)
-Don't EOT entomb when you don't have a reanimation in the mirror, opponent might have reanimate or animate dead and no way of pitching a fattie.
-Iona is always the correct ranimation target in the mirror, is locks your opponent out of the game. Unless of course they have an answer in play already, then Griselbrand is the go to in almost all situations, Tidespout in niche situations. Archon should be boarded out in the mirror, its useless.

[DNSolver]

A lot of results for this deck have been posted on MTGGoldfish in the past few days in the lead-up to GP Chiba. Thought I would chime in on a few things:

1) Unmake = Unmask. Unmake is unplayable. Example of what I'm talking about:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/516716#online

2) Sheoldred - ???
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/517281#online

3) Some people in the thread are talking about Burning Wish. Here's the list I ran for a few months back at the beginning of this year:

4 Griselbrand
6-7 other creatures
13 land inc. 1 Bayou
1-2 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Dark Ritual
4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 4 Animate Dead
4 Entomb, 4 Faithless Looting
4 Thoughtseize, 4 Unmask

SB:
1 Meltdown
1 Wretched Banquet
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Buried Alive
1 Chainer's Edict / Stronghold Gambit / Show and Tell
4 Burning Wish
1 other fatty target

A list I 5-0'd with: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/390455#online

Burning Wish IMO takes up too much space in the main and slows it down too much G1 to have a Reanimate, Thoughtseize, Unmask, and Exhume in the sideboard. The sideboard plan is +4 Burning Wish for one of each of the sorceries: Reanimate, Exhume, Thoughtseize, Unmask. The Wishes were fun and flexible. Keep in mind I was running Children of Korlis -> Tendrils of Agony kill in this deck instead of the typical win cons such as Tidespout + Sire or Archetype + Iona.

[Zooligan]

A lot of results for this deck have been posted on MTGGoldfish in the past few days in the lead-up to GP Chiba.

How are you feeling about the deck since you wrote the primer? Is it nearing maturity or do you feel there is still tuning to be done?

[JPoJohnson]

Tuning for the local meta will always have to take place. This isn't a list like RUG where you just have your decklist and you stick with it for years.

I just bought into this deck since I realized I was only missing about $30 worth of cards. Excited to see how it goes! Never played a reanimator style outside of Mimeoplasm, so I'm pumped. (:

[Tantarus]

I played this in a 60ish man 1k at Cardkingdom today. Ended up making top 4. My list is as follows:


Sorcery (20)

4x Exhume
4x Faithless Looting
4x Reanimate
4x Thoughtseize
4x Unmask

Creature (11)

4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Griselbrand
2x Sire Of Insanity
1x Tidespout Tyrant

Land (14)

4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Marsh Flats
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp

Instant (8)

4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb

Enchantment (3)

3x Animate Dead

Artifact (4)

4x Lotus Petal

Sideboard (15)

1x Blazing Archon
2x Collective Brutality
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Massacre
3x Pithing Needle
1x Scrubland
4x Wear

Really liking this deck, had a lot of turn 1 concessions to Sire of Insanity. The wear tears are pretty solid in the sideboard. I prefer the Unmasks over SSG because after an early Griselbrand you can hit them with discard to protect it. If I get time I might try for a mini tourney report. But my memory is spotty at best these days:P

[TheStalk]

I played this in a 60ish man 1k at Cardkingdom today. Ended up making top 4. My list is as follows:


Sorcery (20)

4x Exhume
4x Faithless Looting
4x Reanimate
4x Thoughtseize
4x Unmask

Creature (11)

4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Griselbrand
2x Sire Of Insanity
1x Tidespout Tyrant

Land (14)

4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Marsh Flats
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp

Instant (8)

4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb

Enchantment (3)

3x Animate Dead

Artifact (4)

4x Lotus Petal

Sideboard (15)

1x Blazing Archon
2x Collective Brutality
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Massacre
3x Pithing Needle
1x Scrubland
4x Wear

Really liking this deck, had a lot of turn 1 concessions to Sire of Insanity. The wear tears are pretty solid in the sideboard. I prefer the Unmasks over SSG because after an early Griselbrand you can hit them with discard to protect it. If I get time I might try for a mini tourney report. But my memory is spotty at best these days:P

Congrats on your finish! Your list looks a lot like what I've been testing, so I have a few questions if you've got the time:

a) How did you feel about the full 4 wear//tear in the board? I've been going back and forth on whether 3 or 4 is correct.
b) Do you ever find yourself hunting for a reanimation spell? It's the part of the combo for which we have the least redundancy, and I've been thinking of find a slot for the 4th Animate Dead in the main and maybe even an Unburial Rites in the SB for grindy games (You get a virtual 5 copies since you can entomb it too)
c) I hadn't really considered throwing an extra land in the SB, how has that been for you thus far? Is it worth the slot?

Thanks!

[Tantarus]

Congrats on your finish! Your list looks a lot like what I've been testing, so I have a few questions if you've got the time:

Thanks, Sure!


a) How did you feel about the full 4 wear//tear in the board? I've been going back and forth on whether 3 or 4 is correct.

Most the time I put in 2 or 3. Unless I know the person has chalices along with permanent based GY hate. The eldrazi players around here tend to run 4x leyline of the void. So the wear tears have been pretty good.


b) Do you ever find yourself hunting for a reanimation spell? It's the part of the combo for which we have the least redundancy, and I've been thinking of find a slot for the 4th Animate Dead in the main and maybe even an Unburial Rites in the SB for grindy games (You get a virtual 5 copies since you can entomb it too)

Yes, I tend to mull any hand that does not have reanimation in it. I too have been considering putting in the 4th Animate dead. I considered the Unburial rights but I think if we are at that point we are already in alot of trouble. Also it gets hit by GY hate they will be able to bring in.



c) I hadn't really considered throwing an extra land in the SB, how has that been for you thus far? Is it worth the slot?

Thanks!

I think it is. In games without wastelands I just swap it for a fetch. In games where my mana is at risk I just straight add it in. I have been happy with it so far.

Honestly when sideboarding I tend to go the no fear route, hence no gambits, sneak attacks or whatever, just wear/tear to deal with GY hate. As to not take away our speed or turn 1/2 games.

[DNSolver]

@Zooligan: I like where this deck is at the moment. I think minimal tuning is required once you figure out what is actually important in the deck. Examples of cards that people play until they realize they're unnecessary/bad:

Elesh Norn
Blazing Archon
Massacre / Pyroclasm
Pithing Needle
Sire of Insanity

Here are my thoughts on Sire of Insanity specifically. Keep in mind that this analysis is mostly only for the Looting hands:

1) On the draw, a turn 1 Sire is frequently meh. You could lose to turn 1 Top, turn 1 do nothing - holding up Swords or Dismember, drawing Swords, drawing Terminus, drawing Maze of Ith, playing against a reasonable Lands.deck start, Aether Vial ticking up and putting in guys, topdecking 2nd land -> Goyf (which will probably be big enough), etc.

2) People keep raving about entombing it for a turn 1 "kill". Have you guys READ Griselbrand?

3) Hardcasting it - likely not turn 1, so likely bad against all the cards/plays mentioned in (1).

4) Occaisionally discarding your own hand feels bad.

In short, with turn 1 Sensei's Divining Top being >15% of the format, and Lands and Death and Taxes being respectable metagame presences, Sire is not playable simply because by itself it doesn't guarantee anything.

Let's take Archetype of Endurance as a replacement:

PROs:
Beats Swords, Dismember, Maze of Ith, JTMS, etc., almost anything except Terminus / Supreme Verdict
Better Entomb target post-Griselbrand after turn 1
Part of a hard lock with Iona, even after Griselbrand is surgical'd
Protects your other creatures (Chancellors) if you get to that weird kind of topdeck game with no Griselbrand

CONs:
Loses more to topdeck Goyfs / Vials on its own
Loses to exactly Terminus out of Miracles
Doesn't discard hands

[RhoxWarMonk]

@Zooligan: I like where this deck is at the moment. I think minimal tuning is required once you figure out what is actually important in the deck. Examples of cards that people play until they realize they're unnecessary/bad:

Elesh Norn
Blazing Archon
Massacre / Pyroclasm
Pithing Needle
Sire of Insanity


I haven't been too impressed with Sire either. When I play a card like that turn one and still lose, it makes it hard to pick anything outside Griselbrand (with a few exceptions) when deciding what to reanimate. I think he got popular because he's R/B and the deck's shell are the same colors but it's an unnecessary coincidence to include him in my opinion. I wouldn't fault anyone for running him as a 1 of, which I'm currently doing myself but I'm genuinely considering cutting him outright for the 4th copy of Animate Dead.

I also don't understand how more people aren't playing Iona in the main, she's absolutely bonkers in my experience. My only assumption is due to all the Eldrazi decks in the format but then... just don't tutor/entomb/reanimate her game 1 and side her out game 2?

I do like Pithing Needle and Elesh Norn in the board but personal taste I guess. Elesh Norn destroys so many creature based decks, she's worth a slot. I have tried Blazing Archon but he feels so... bad to me. It might require further testing but haven't been impressed. What matchups do you guys bring him in for?

One card that's been a total all-star for me out of the board? Blood Moon.

[TheStalk]

@Zooligan:

*cut for brevity*

Let's take Archetype of Endurance as a replacement:

PROs:
Beats Swords, Dismember, Maze of Ith, JTMS, etc., almost anything except Terminus / Supreme Verdict
Better Entomb target post-Griselbrand after turn 1
Part of a hard lock with Iona, even after Griselbrand is surgical'd
Protects your other creatures (Chancellors) if you get to that weird kind of topdeck game with no Griselbrand

CONs:
Loses more to topdeck Goyfs / Vials on its own
Loses to exactly Terminus out of Miracles
Doesn't discard hands

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about Inkwell Leviathan then? It has the obvious downside of only protecting itself, so it isn't as much of a hard lock as Archetype + another fatty, but contrary to Archetype, it's pretty strong on its own. Archetype can't attack into most Eldrazi, Mentor with any mana up, Pyromancer and mana up, 2 Delvers, Gurmag Angler, most boardstates that DnT can conjure up, etc. Sure, Archetype has a higher ceiling, but it'll literally never win the game on its own, and if you have 2 fatties in play, odds are you're beating pretty much everything but Terminus anyway. I'm still playing the Sires main but I have an Inkwell in the side, and I've found that having double evasion + shroud + enormous stats is big game.

[Doneval]

Most the time I put in 2 or 3. Unless I know the person has chalices along with permanent based GY hate. The eldrazi players around here tend to run 4x leyline of the void. So the wear tears have been pretty good.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what to sideboard out in this deck. When you bring in 3-4 Wear//Tear, what do you usually take out?

[TheStalk]

@Zooligan:

*cut for brevity*

Let's take Archetype of Endurance as a replacement:

PROs:
Beats Swords, Dismember, Maze of Ith, JTMS, etc., almost anything except Terminus / Supreme Verdict
Better Entomb target post-Griselbrand after turn 1
Part of a hard lock with Iona, even after Griselbrand is surgical'd
Protects your other creatures (Chancellors) if you get to that weird kind of topdeck game with no Griselbrand

CONs:
Loses more to topdeck Goyfs / Vials on its own
Loses to exactly Terminus out of Miracles
Doesn't discard hands

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about Inkwell Leviathan then? It has the obvious downside of only protecting itself, so it isn't as much of a hard lock as Archetype + another fatty, but contrary to Archetype, it's pretty strong on its own. Archetype can't attack into most Eldrazi, Mentor with any mana up, Pyromancer and mana up, 2 Delvers, Gurmag Angler, most boardstates that DnT can conjure up, etc. Sure, Archetype has a higher ceiling, but it'll literally never win the game on its own, and if you have 2 fatties in play, odds are you're beating pretty much everything but Terminus anyway. I'm still playing the Sires main but I have an Inkwell in the side, and I've found that having double evasion + shroud + enormous stats is big game.

[JPoJohnson]

PROs:
Beats Swords, Dismember, Maze of Ith, JTMS, etc., almost anything except Terminus / Supreme Verdict
Better Entomb target post-Griselbrand after turn 1
Part of a hard lock with Iona, even after Griselbrand is surgical'd
Protects your other creatures (Chancellors) if you get to that weird kind of topdeck game with no Griselbrand

CONs:
Loses more to topdeck Goyfs / Vials on its own
Loses to exactly Terminus out of Miracles
Doesn't discard hands

I like the look of Empyrial Archangel in the sideboard. Has evasion, protection, and protects you. Sure it doesn't protect other creatures, but you may not have to with her. What are people's thoughts on this target? I plan on a one-of in my sideboard for applicable matchups.

[Quentin Coldman]

I like the look of Empyrial Archangel in the sideboard. Has evasion, protection, and protects you. Sure it doesn't protect other creatures, but you may not have to with her. What are people's thoughts on this target? I plan on a one-of in my sideboard for applicable matchups.

I always play with one in the sideboard and I'm very happy with it. Very nice against Death and Taxes, Maverick, Lands, Burn, UR Delver and other aggressive Decks, because your opponent can't race or kill him normally. And when he dies no problem just Reanimate him again :D I think Inkwell Leviathan is also pretty good, because it's a 3 turn clock, but against Death and Taxes and Maverick where your opponent can bring in Batterskull I prefer Angel. And those are the two most relevant matchups for a shroudcreature. Only against Lands I think Leviathan is stronger because he's one turn faster (but with Angel you can survive Marit Lage).

[DNSolver]

Inkwell Leviathan is a better choice than Sire and seems like an arguable replacement for Archetype if you don't get extra value out of putting pigs into play :D

Regarding Batterskull vs. Inkwell, here's the optimal play pattern out of D+T to try to race it:

t1: Mom
t2: stoneforge
t3: batterskull
t4+ attack every turn, block with pro blue every turn.

So they need Mom AND Stoneforge to beat it, and we can still beat it if we have a discard spell after they search for Batterskull.

As for Empyrial vs. the same start:

on the play:
t2: put opponent to 15, opponent searches for batterskull
t3: put opponent to 10, opponent holds up mana
t4: put opponent to 5, opponent puts in batterskull, attacks us for 4 to go to 9
t5: put opponent to 4,
(etc.)
if the opponent can find a flyer, they can block us forever using Mother of Runes.

So we have concluded that even turn 1 Empyrial or Inkwell on the play can't beat Mother of Runes + Batterskull.

[Quentin Coldman]

So we have concluded that even turn 1 Empyrial or Inkwell on the play can't beat Mother of Runes + Batterskull.

Mom is not an issue after boarding, because then we have Massacre + Collective Brutality. I also think there is no need to play a shroudcreature main.

[Tantarus]

I'm having a hard time figuring out what to sideboard out in this deck. When you bring in 3-4 Wear//Tear, what do you usually take out?

Depending on the match, but usually I remove some number of discard spells. Also it depends on the kind of hate you see. I have found people in my local area are starting to respect the deck and dropping RIP/cages in favor of surgicals, Leyline of the Void, or faeries. In which case you want the discard more obv.

As for people crapping on Sire of Insanity I can't disagree more. It has won me alot of games, Sure it is not always a win. But on the play it is a very high %. I think 2 is the right number in the main. In sideboarding I tend to go down to one if my other creatures are more hateful. But Sire against any fair deck, burn or eldrazi for instance is pretty much a win. Most people concede on the spot to avoid giving you any info. Which is fine with me.

[TheStalk]

Thanks, Sure!


Most the time I put in 2 or 3. Unless I know the person has chalices along with permanent based GY hate. The eldrazi players around here tend to run 4x leyline of the void. So the wear tears have been pretty good.


Yes, I tend to mull any hand that does not have reanimation in it. I too have been considering putting in the 4th Animate dead. I considered the Unburial rights but I think if we are at that point we are already in alot of trouble. Also it gets hit by GY hate they will be able to bring in.



I think it is. In games without wastelands I just swap it for a fetch. In games where my mana is at risk I just straight add it in. I have been happy with it so far.

Honestly when sideboarding I tend to go the no fear route, hence no gambits, sneak attacks or whatever, just wear/tear to deal with GY hate. As to not take away our speed or turn 1/2 games.

Yeah I've been feeling the same with Wear//Tear, I feel like I only ever want 4 vs Eldrazi essentially, since they have lots of artifacts/enchantments I want to kill. I'm also off the Sneak Attack or similar plan, I tried it but too often found myself in spots where I had parts of each combo and didn't have a very good line either way (do I bin the fatty and hope to topdeck reanimation, or do I keep it in hand and hope to draw mana to cast Sneak). Without blue card filtering, I really felt like bringing in Sneak Attack just made me a worse Sneak & Show deck. Anyway, food for thought as far as the SB is concerned, I'm still testing and changing it pretty frequently. Currently my 15 is:

4 wear//tear
2 pithing needle
3 collective brutality
2 faerie macabre (mostly for the mirror. Still debating if Surgical is better here)
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 inkwell
1 blazing archon

My 60 is pretty identical to yours, but I'm going to test -1 Thoughtseize +1 Animate Dead as soon as I get a chance, I'll report back if anything conclusive comes of it.

[tarmogoat]

GP Chiba results:

KEN'ICHIROU OMORI'S BLACK-RED REANIMATOR - 41TH
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Lotus Petal
4 Animate Dead
4 Badlands
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp

Sideboard
1 Massacre
1 Snuff Out
2 Ashen Rider
1 Blazing Archon
2 Collective Brutality
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Sneak Attack

The only reanmiator in the Top64 (not even classic UBx reanimator). The pilot run Chancellors, Sires, Blazing Archon, Brutality, Sneak attacks and Elesh norn and Iona hate pack. A pretty stock MB and an interesting sideboard.

[Zooligan]

What is your current overall creature suite Solver?

[JPoJohnson]

Inkwell Leviathan is a better choice than Sire and seems like an arguable replacement for Archetype if you don't get extra value out of putting pigs into play :D

Regarding Batterskull vs. Inkwell, here's the optimal play pattern out of D+T to try to race it:

t1: Mom
t2: stoneforge
t3: batterskull
t4+ attack every turn, block with pro blue every turn.

So they need Mom AND Stoneforge to beat it, and we can still beat it if we have a discard spell after they search for Batterskull.

As for Empyrial vs. the same start:

on the play:
t2: put opponent to 15, opponent searches for batterskull
t3: put opponent to 10, opponent holds up mana
t4: put opponent to 5, opponent puts in batterskull, attacks us for 4 to go to 9
t5: put opponent to 4,
(etc.)
if the opponent can find a flyer, they can block us forever using Mother of Runes.

So we have concluded that even turn 1 Empyrial or Inkwell on the play can't beat Mother of Runes + Batterskull.

The main difference being we take no damage with the angel and have plenty of time to do other things. Outside of 2-3 creatures (Iona, Elesh, Archon), I don't think there are any set creatures that you'll find in most sideboards. The reason for that is they play differently and they match up differently. I just personally like the way angel matches up against a lot of decks. That's all.

[TheStalk]

GP Chiba results:

KEN'ICHIROU OMORI'S BLACK-RED REANIMATOR - 41TH
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Lotus Petal
4 Animate Dead
4 Badlands
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp

Sideboard
1 Massacre
1 Snuff Out
2 Ashen Rider
1 Blazing Archon
2 Collective Brutality
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Sneak Attack

The only reanmiator in the Top64 (not even classic UBx reanimator). The pilot run Chancellors, Sires, Blazing Archon, Brutality, Sneak attacks and Elesh norn and Iona hate pack. A pretty stock MB and an interesting sideboard.

Actually, if you take a second look at that main deck, it's a little strange too. They're all cards you'd expect to see, but not combined as they usually are. This guy is playing Spirit Guides and Unmask together in the main, and ZERO copies of Thoughtseize in the 75. I'm happy for him that he did well, but to me, it seems like

a) SSG doesn't add much if you're not trying to power out turn 1 Collective Brutality (he only has them in the SB)
b) Having SSG over Thoughtseize means less black cards to pitch to Unmask, and also it leaves fewer ways to bin a fatty than "stock" lists play.

I'd be extremely curious to know how the pilot settled on this particular build, and how he would change (or not change) it moving forward.

[Quentin Coldman]

Deck made Top 8 (216 players) yesterday in Prag at mkm Series with the following list:

Mikael Linden – Reanimator

Main Deck
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant
3 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
2 Thoughtseize
3 Collective Brutality
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
Sideboard:
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blood Moon
3 Sneak Attack
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Blazing Archon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Thoughtseize

[tarmogoat]

Actually, if you take a second look at that main deck, it's a little strange too. They're all cards you'd expect to see, but not combined as they usually are. This guy is playing Spirit Guides and Unmask together in the main, and ZERO copies of Thoughtseize in the 75. I'm happy for him that he did well, but to me, it seems like

a) SSG doesn't add much if you're not trying to power out turn 1 Collective Brutality (he only has them in the SB)
b) Having SSG over Thoughtseize means less black cards to pitch to Unmask, and also it leaves fewer ways to bin a fatty than "stock" lists play.

I'd be extremely curious to know how the pilot settled on this particular build, and how he would change (or not change) it moving forward.


That is very true. I believe the pilot chose to go more all-in, it's the fastest speed availbale with 4 SSG 4 Petal and 4 Unmask.
The list has:
12 ways of getting a fatty to the bin: 4 Looting, 4 Entomb, 4 Unmask.
12 fast mana: 4 SSG, 4 Petals, 4 Dark Ritual
12 Reanimation spells: 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 4 Animate
11 Fatties (4 of which get you a free daze as protection) to bring back: 4 Chancellor, 4 GBrand, 2 Sire 1 Tyrant
13 Lands: 4 Badlands, 1 Blackcleave Cliffs, 4 Mire, 2 Delta, 2 Swamp

It's clear the pilot is maximizing on T1s this way, which can be great on a field filled with Miracles and Show and Tells. It certainly paid off, I'm not sure what the losses were, but the list remains powerful even seizeless.

Take a look at the board:

4 Anti Creature slots: 1 Massacre, 1 Snuff Out, 1 Blazing Archon,1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
7 S&T/Miracles answers: 2 Ashen Rider, 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria, 4 Sneak Attack
2 extra value cards discard/binners/removal: 2 Collective Brutality
2 Grave hate: 2 Faerie Macabre

The amout of S&T hate is crucial to the meta I believe: Showing a Sneak Attack and cracking petals + guides to 'flood' the board with all fatties in hand in an uncounterable way seems pretty good. Same as removing threats with Rider or stopping them on the spot with Iona (if Omnitell). Also, Playing a T1 Iona on White seals the game against Miracles (unless a nut draw on the play from the Miracles player playing a T4 Jace).

I like this list a lot, as it proves that even hardcore decks like RB can be tuned to be even more aggressive if the metagame requires so. I think the list should not be netdecked to play locally or in an open meta outside of Japan (where miracles and S&T seem to be huge), but to be considered when building for a specific or expected combo/miracles metagame.

[TheStalk]

That is very true. I believe the pilot chose to go more all-in, it's the fastest speed availbale with 4 SSG 4 Petal and 4 Unmask.
The list has:
12 ways of getting a fatty to the bin: 4 Looting, 4 Entomb, 4 Unmask.
12 fast mana: 4 SSG, 4 Petals, 4 Dark Ritual
12 Reanimation spells: 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 4 Animate
11 Fatties (4 of which get you a free daze as protection) to bring back: 4 Chancellor, 4 GBrand, 2 Sire 1 Tyrant
13 Lands: 4 Badlands, 1 Blackcleave Cliffs, 4 Mire, 2 Delta, 2 Swamp

It's clear the pilot is maximizing on T1s this way, which can be great on a field filled with Miracles and Show and Tells. It certainly paid off, I'm not sure what the losses were, but the list remains powerful even seizeless.

Take a look at the board:

4 Anti Creature slots: 1 Massacre, 1 Snuff Out, 1 Blazing Archon,1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
7 S&T/Miracles answers: 2 Ashen Rider, 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria, 4 Sneak Attack
2 extra value cards discard/binners/removal: 2 Collective Brutality
2 Grave hate: 2 Faerie Macabre

The amout of S&T hate is crucial to the meta I believe: Showing a Sneak Attack and cracking petals + guides to 'flood' the board with all fatties in hand in an uncounterable way seems pretty good. Same as removing threats with Rider or stopping them on the spot with Iona (if Omnitell). Also, Playing a T1 Iona on White seals the game against Miracles (unless a nut draw on the play from the Miracles player playing a T4 Jace).

I like this list a lot, as it proves that even hardcore decks like RB can be tuned to be even more aggressive if the metagame requires so. I think the list should not be netdecked to play locally or in an open meta outside of Japan (where miracles and S&T seem to be huge), but to be considered when building for a specific or expected combo/miracles metagame.

Yeah your analysis makes a lot of sense. I'm personally still not sure I like the SSG's in the Unmask version for the reasons I outlined above, but I'm still new to the deck and they might be a better fit than I give them credit for. Anyhow, as you say, for a deck that has a pretty straightforward plan, it's cool to see that there's still room for innovation, metagaming and optimization.

[Quentin Coldman]

Hey guys I'd like to play the deck on saturday at a big local event. Until now I always played the deck with Unmask, but I really like to try out a different version without Unmask, and with Brutality main. Atm I prefer this list:

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Badlands
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

//Creatures
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Grave Titan

//Spells
4 Lotus Petal
3 Animate Dead
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality

//Sideboard
3 Wear // Tear
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Massacre
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 ????

Just wanted to hear some opinions about the list, cause I really can't decide whether to play this one or my traditional Unmask list(with Brutality in the sideboard). I also have two free slots in the sideboard, and no idea what to play.

Thx

[DNSolver]

Someone posted some content on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/5fs2d0/a_blackred_reanimator_primer/

Not sure who wrote this and I haven't read through it yet, but maybe worth a read.

[Satisfied_Yeti]

I'm not sure how much the poster of that primer knows about the deck, Burn doesn't seem like a bad matchup, the splashes aren't touched upon, he forgot Stronghold Gambit, and a few other minor things like not knowing of 4 Unmask / 4 Thoughtseize lists.

All in all, it's a good start to a primer and hopefully gets updated as more data and info comes out.

[hovercraft]

I'm not sure how much the poster of that primer knows about the deck, Burn doesn't seem like a bad matchup, the splashes aren't touched upon, he forgot Stronghold Gambit, and a few other minor things like not knowing of 4 Unmask / 4 Thoughtseize lists.

All in all, it's a good start to a primer and hopefully gets updated as more data and info comes out.

Yeah I think he is open to other players' thoughts on improving the primer and adding more info.

[Medea_]

Hey folks,

I'm looking to put together a BR Reanimator list so that I can do a write up on the D&T matchup for Thraben University. My question to you all is: "What's the closest thing to a stock or finely tuned decklist you all have?" These are the sorts of things I'm considering in putting together my list, and I would appreciate any input on how/why to make my card choices. I've seen the primer that was floating around on Reddit a few days ago, but I haven't read much else on the deck.

Looking over data, I've seen decks with and without Collective Brutality main. Ken'ichirou Omori's list from Chiba did not have Collective Brutality main, but many of the 5-0 MTGO decklists do. The ones that don't have Collective Brutality are tending to play Unmask. Why should I play one over the other in the current metagame? It seems to me like going in with unmask provides extra speed that can punish many of the decks in the format at the moment.

The alternative win conditions in the sideboard vary a little bit. I've seen both Sneak Attack and Stronghold's Gambit. To what extend are you all just answering opposing hate and comboing off, just hardcasting a threat instead, or relying on cards like Sneak Attack and Stronghold's Gambit? Given the speed of the deck, it seems to me like you all get to just ignore most opposing hate with the exception of Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre.

Is there any interesting tech worth including in the decklist? I'll likely be playing this deck against many of my other locals in preparation for the upcoming GP, so I'd like to have a nice, solid list rather than something that happens to crush D&T extra hard.

Thanks,

-Phil Gallagher

[mistercakes]

I'd recommend proxying up the deck a bit and seeing what happens. It feels like many of the questions you ask can be self answered by just playing a few games.

Best of luck.

[Dice_Box]

I have seen this deck do enough to consider it now established in its own right. Moved.

[Quentin Coldman]

Yesterday I made Top 8 (5th) at a 82 man tournament with the following list:

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
3 Badlands
1 Scrubland

//Creatures
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sire of Insanity

//Spells
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

//Sideboard
3 Wear // Tear
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Massacre
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Grave Titan

My matchups were:

2:0 vs 12 Post
2:1 vs RG Lands
2:1 vs RW Painter
1:2 vs Elves
2:0 vs Aluren
2:0 vs ANT
2:1 vs Aggro Loam

Quarterfinal:
0:2 vs Bant Blade

Deck performed very well, the loss vs Bant was very unlucky. Game 1 I had Grisel draw 14 + 3 Looting, Grisel gets the Sword and I just need to find an Exhume or Animate Dead what didn't happen in 20 draws. Game 2 he has all the hate while I keep drawing all the lands. Happens. I wouldn't change a card atm, but sometimes I had problems finding a reanimationspell. Brutality in the board was okay, but imo there is no need to play it main. Grave Titan is just awesome in the meta, definitly good enough to be main instead of 4th Grisel (I just don't wanna split my altered Playset otherwise he'd be already main :laugh:).

[Atherion]

how did the SB work out for you? no problem finding the white source? Also could you elaborate on the lands matchup? They bring in chalice if I'm guessing right.

[Quentin Coldman]

how did the SB work out for you? no problem finding the white source? Also could you elaborate on the lands matchup? They bring in chalice if I'm guessing right.

Sideboard worked out very well, I borded all cards, but the Blasts in during the tournament. 1 Scrubland is definitly okay. You also have the Petals for white mana. I also play the seventh Fetchie over the fourth Badlands, so that I can fetch my Scrubland if needed.

The match vs Lands was very close. Game 1 I had the turn 1 Grisel and he concedes. Game 2 I try to reanimate Grave Titan in Turn 1, but he had Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. Then he played Chalice on 1 and 2 and killed me with a Tireless Tracker. Game 3 I can Exhume Turn 1 Chancellor of the Annex. I bring him down on 5 with the Chancellor, but then he finds a Maze. 2 Turns later I draw a Pithing Needle and can kill him. Boarding was: -2 Grisel, -1 Sire, -2 Unmask, +2 Needle, +1 Ashen Rider, +1 Grave Titan, +1 Empyrial Archangel. I knew he'd bring in Chalice, but u can discard it, race it or play around so that wasn't worth 4 me loosing tempo by bringing in Wear // Tear. But next time I'd board out 1 Thoughtseize instead of 1 Unmask, to have a better oppurtunity to play around Chalice.

[DNSolver]

Agreed on strategies there. Lands shouldn't be too difficult a matchup. I've played vs the same guy regularly over the past year or so, and the matchup is like this:

a) Sire is horrible. Griselbrand -> Archetype or Tidespout is a win.
b) Let Crop Rotation resolve before responding (if instant-speed reanimation is involved)
c) Children of Korlis-> Tendrils of Agony as your win con is even more disgusting. This beats Glacial Chasm lock. Otherwise you need Tidespout.
d) Stronghold Gambit out of the side is funny and wins instantly.

The matchup is pretty darn good once you know what you're doing. Grave Titan is another threat that they don't want to see, but it is questionable in other matchups, so...?

Advice on that decklist:
-Definitely go up to 12 reanimation effects.
-How was Iona + Sire as your creature flex slots? Seems suboptimal against Karakas.
-Were the spirit guides worth? Right now they're taking up the 12th reanimation slot and a land/creature slot.

Also, thanks to everyone who has helped spread the word of Griselbrand to the Legacy populace. I walked around the room at a tournament yesterday and would occaisionally hear people talking about how worried they were about this deck, or complaining about how good it is, or saying it's bad (of course). Glad to make Established.

[Quentin Coldman]

Advice on that decklist:
-Definitely go up to 12 reanimation effects.
-How was Iona + Sire as your creature flex slots? Seems suboptimal against Karakas.
-Were the spirit guides worth? Right now they're taking up the 12th reanimation slot and a land/creature slot.


The last year I played with -2 Spirit Guide, +1 Animate Dead, +1 Land and it also worked out. The thing is I never had a problem before boarding, and after boarding 1 Animate Dead is something I like to board out. Simian Spirit Guide helps to be 1 turn faster and I kinda like this in the current meta. But I did board the Guide out sometimes too. The deck also works with 11 reanimationspell, but sure you're right 12 would be better. Sire is awesome like always and Iona is okay. Could also be in the sideboard, I didn't reanimate her once yesterday, but I like to have the option of searching her. For Karakas you have Sire, Chancellor or Grisel into draw 14 into Do what the hell u want ^^ after boarding u get more karakasproof creatures. But I think you're right here again, -1 Grisel, +1 Grave Titan (or Tidespout Tyrant) would be better.

[Luthier]

Hi all, first time posting here but I've been kicking around and testing this 5 color Reanimator list for a while. I went to a 5 color mana base in order to support 6 Faithless Looting effects maindeck as well as both Wear//Tear and Abrupt Decay in the sideboard. Wear//Tear is anti-Eldrazi tech as a good way to deal with both Chalice of the Void and Leyline of the Void.
As far as non-land card quality, it feels like a strict upgrade to the BR or BRg lists, so the question is am I sacrificing too much by using the 5 color lands? It doesn't really feel like it. Sticky spots rarely come up as we're usually only tapping our lands once or twice anyway. Not being able to fetch basics to play around Wasteland/Blood Moon is a slight problem but the deck is so fast again it doesn't usually matter.
Seems unorthodox but in practice it performs quite well, especially the addition of Careful Study. Comments/criticism/testing welcome.

1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand

2 Careful Study
2 Collective Brutality
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb

4 Unmask

4 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Swamp

Sideboard:

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Blazing Archon
1 Dread of Night
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wear / Tear

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

I just put this deck together on a lark last night, and after a few games of practice, immediately went 3-2 and 4-1 in leagues. This deck is bananas. I refuse to pay for Unmasks online so I'm running 3x Collective Brutality/4 Thoughtseize, and CB is a house basically every time. I'm gonna try the SSG/Chrome Mox build tonight, likely by cutting some Seizes and fatties (less impressed by Jin-Gitaxias so far).

I'm very curious about the white vs. green splash, it seems like it's focused on Abrupt Decay/Reverent Silence vs. Wear//Tear as the artifact/enchantment removal of choice. Green lets you fetch up a Bayou, blow up a T0 Leyline, and still combo out T1. So if you aren't going all-in on that plan, it seems like white is a better choice as it gives you more options for hitting Chalice, Grafdigger's Cage, Null Rod, etc. without requiring off-color mana. Is the green splash more popular among the Unmask builds, and white among the CB builds?

[maraxusofkelds]

My biggest issue with this deck is deciding what to side out in games 2 and 3. Besides chancellor vs decks that do not have force/daze/drs, what other cards are sided out?

[Quentin Coldman]

My biggest issue with this deck is deciding what to side out in games 2 and 3. Besides chancellor vs decks that do not have force/daze/drs, what other cards are sided out?

Belongs on your decklist and vs what deck you're playing. I almost never board out Chancellor, especially after boarding when we're normally otd they become more important, even when you're opponent don't play counter. They stop stuff like Turn 1 Cage, Turn 1 discard, Shaman, Surgical otp, etc. So u have 1turn to combo off or discard their hate.

[Final Fortune]

The only deck you'll SB out Chancellor against is Miracles and decks you think are SBing Leyline of the Void fwiw, you usually need a specific reason to cut them.

[Zooligan]

In many ways Chancellor is one of the most OP cards in the deck.

[bcoutlander]

I agree that you should not side out the Chancellors in almost any matchup. It is a pretty good speed bump vs. any deck including the ones that maybe playing Leylines.

I played a list very close to the one from GP Chiba this past weekend in Atlanta in the legacy challenges at the SCG event. The only change I made in the main was -1 Sire +1 Ashen Rider because I've always liked that in the main when I played UBg Reanimator. Here are my results:
2-1-1 in the first challenge
2-1-1 in the second
3-0-1 in the third

All the draws were intentional to prize split and allow us to sign up for the next legacy event.

I beat the following:
12 Post, Shardless BUG twice, Turbo Depths twice, RG Lands and a deck with Eureka

Losses were to Shardless BUG and RG Lands

This deck feels unbeatable when your opening hand has a chancellor and a way to get a creature into/out of your graveyard. I won at least 3 games this way on mulls to 5 while on the play.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bcoutlander]

One more thing I would say is definitely play the Unmasks. I have since built this in MTGO but like others did not want to spend the money for the Unmasks there and the deck doesn't feel as powerful without them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alakhai84]

One more thing I would say is definitely play the Unmasks. I have since built this in MTGO but like others did not want to spend the money for the Unmasks there and the deck doesn't feel as powerful without them. Do u guys think that Unmask's build is better than Collective Brutality's one? They're really different cause the Unmask build runs : 8 discard spells (4 Unmask and 4 Thoughtseize), no Simian Spirit Guide and 14 lands. The other one runs 4 Simian Spirit Guide, 6/7 discard spells and 12/13 lands. What do u guys think? I have done some testing and I've seen that both are pretty good but I can't decide which is better than the other one.

[Quentin Coldman]

Do u guys think that Unmask's build is better than Collective Brutality's one? They're really different cause the Unmask build runs : 8 discard spells (4 Unmask and 4 Thoughtseize), no Simian Spirit Guide and 14 lands. The other one runs 4 Simian Spirit Guide, 6/7 discard spells and 12/13 lands. What do u guys think? I have done some testing and I've seen that both are pretty good but I can't decide which is better than the other one.

You can also play Simian Spirit Guide in the Unmask version. I tried both variants and prefer the version with Unmask, but at least it's a personal choice what to prefer.

[Nocley]

A few notes against my personal preferences:

Chancellors come out only on the draw against Miracles, and rarely a few other decks if I really need slots. Now that I've moved to the wear//tear SB and have less cards consistently coming in, I don't feel the pressure to take them out so much.

The Collective Brutality build definitely seemed less explosive when I played it compared to Unmasks, but at the same time on the CB build I've played against much less DRS/Containment Priests, which is the reason why CB is so good (outside of being an uncounterable discard outlet). Mainly, the mana intensive (2 vs 0) for CB seemed much to overwhelming, I was going close to all-in while just doing my clearing the way. When it backfired (like having 2+ counters in their hand), CB just set back my ability to combo off that turn a lot of the time. And because of that, it makes me want to reinvestigate the SB splash, as in that case I really want AD if I'm playing Unmask for the facts that its a black card to pitch (which hurts you when you run Unmask + SSGs), and well its your answer to DRS/Containment Priest. Definitely can't run both AD and Wear//Tear, so that changes the SB immensely.

[Zooligan]

So basically we need a BR card that does what Abrupt Decay does... :)

[Firö]

A few notes against my personal preferences:

Chancellors come out only on the draw against Miracles, and rarely a few other decks if I really need slots. Now that I've moved to the wear//tear SB and have less cards consistently coming in, I don't feel the pressure to take them out so much.

The Collective Brutality build definitely seemed less explosive when I played it compared to Unmasks, but at the same time on the CB build I've played against much less DRS/Containment Priests, which is the reason why CB is so good (outside of being an uncounterable discard outlet). Mainly, the mana intensive (2 vs 0) for CB seemed much to overwhelming, I was going close to all-in while just doing my clearing the way. When it backfired (like having 2+ counters in their hand), CB just set back my ability to combo off that turn a lot of the time. And because of that, it makes me want to reinvestigate the SB splash, as in that case I really want AD if I'm playing Unmask for the facts that its a black card to pitch (which hurts you when you run Unmask + SSGs), and well its your answer to DRS/Containment Priest. Definitely can't run both AD and Wear//Tear, so that changes the SB immensely.

I'm not quite sure I understand this logic.

If you collective brutality and they have two counters in hand, you get one and you still have your card in the graveyard.
If you unmask and they have two counters in hand, you get one and you have a card exiled.

These seem pretty comparable and I'm not quite sure how it can "backfire" as you describe. Can you elaborate or explain?

[Zooligan]

Often you Unmask yourself to get a card in the yard. If that gets countered you now are down the Unmask and the card exiled to cast it with nothing in the yard.

[Luthier]

Definitely can't run both AD and Wear//Tear, so that changes the SB immensely.

I posted my list at the end of the last page so I'm not sure if anyone saw it. It's using a 5 color mana base to support both AD and Wear Tear, as well as 2 Careful Study in addition to Faithless Looting in the main. You lose stuff like Massacre and Reverent Silence but it's been working pretty well for me.

[Nocley]

I'm not quite sure I understand this logic.

If you collective brutality and they have two counters in hand, you get one and you still have your card in the graveyard.
If you unmask and they have two counters in hand, you get one and you have a card exiled.

These seem pretty comparable and I'm not quite sure how it can "backfire" as you describe. Can you elaborate or explain?

The mana cost. To do CB T1, you need to expend at least one more card (Petal/SSG/Rit) while Unmask is 0 mana.

[RhoxWarMonk]

The mana cost. To do CB T1, you need to expend at least one more card (Petal/SSG/Rit) while Unmask is 0 mana.

But you still 2 for 1 yourself with Unmask as well, and you don't get the ability to remove a Deathrite (or similar) in the process? Not to mention, the best part of Brutality is being able to throw a fatty into the bin "for free".

Is everyone really having that much issue casting Brutality T1? I've had strong results with it but admittedly, do like the heavy discard version using 4x Thoughtseize / 4x Unmask as well.

[Atherion]

I also prefer the unmask version too, if they have a DRS on the field, you try to kill him, it still can get countered and it's possible, it's your first discard spell you played. DRS can still be discarded with unmask.

BTW apart from 4 chancellors, 4 brands, 1 sire, what is your creature of choice? Tidespout tyrant seems bad in a lot of situations - can get killed too easily and then you have won nothing, although I realize, he is good against lands and karakas in general, I am thinking about grave titan or Iona, your thoughts?

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

BTW apart from 4 chancellors, 4 brands, 1 sire, what is your creature of choice? Tidespout tyrant seems bad in a lot of situations - can get killed too easily and then you have won nothing, although I realize, he is good against lands and karakas in general, I am thinking about grave titan or Iona, your thoughts?

I've actually been super impressed with Tidespout Tyrant lately (online), he gets around Karakas and Pithing Needle and I find that when I'm Entombing him instead of Griselbrand, I have almost a full grip and can bounce nearly their entire board. His #1 weakness is being Dismemberable, so he's not my first choice, but he's often my second.

If I had to pick something else, I'd go with Grave Titan (if your meta is slower) or Blazing Archon (if your meta is faster). Iona is often either instant-game-over or strictly-worse-than-Griselbrand depending on the matchup, and IMO it's more the latter than the former.

[maraxusofkelds]

Is there a starter pack sideboarding guide in this thread I hit take a look at? I feel like my sideboaring in and out is completely off. Obviously, sideboarding comes from experience and it is different depending on situations but a general starter one I can take a look at for generalization in what to take out and bring in would be amazing.

[tarmogoat]

Hey folks,

I'm looking to put together a BR Reanimator list so that I can do a write up on the D&T matchup for Thraben University. My question to you all is: "What's the closest thing to a stock or finely tuned decklist you all have?" These are the sorts of things I'm considering in putting together my list, and I would appreciate any input on how/why to make my card choices. I've seen the primer that was floating around on Reddit a few days ago, but I haven't read much else on the deck.

Looking over data, I've seen decks with and without Collective Brutality main. Ken'ichirou Omori's list from Chiba did not have Collective Brutality main, but many of the 5-0 MTGO decklists do. The ones that don't have Collective Brutality are tending to play Unmask. Why should I play one over the other in the current metagame? It seems to me like going in with unmask provides extra speed that can punish many of the decks in the format at the moment.

The alternative win conditions in the sideboard vary a little bit. I've seen both Sneak Attack and Stronghold's Gambit. To what extend are you all just answering opposing hate and comboing off, just hardcasting a threat instead, or relying on cards like Sneak Attack and Stronghold's Gambit? Given the speed of the deck, it seems to me like you all get to just ignore most opposing hate with the exception of Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre.

Is there any interesting tech worth including in the decklist? I'll likely be playing this deck against many of my other locals in preparation for the upcoming GP, so I'd like to have a nice, solid list rather than something that happens to crush D&T extra hard.

Thanks,

-Phil Gallagher

Hi Medea_,

I'm too a D&T player, building BR Reanimator as a second choice for different metagames.

They key cards as a D&T player you need to take into account are:

Chancellor of the Annex - The best T1 play you have against a T1/2 reanimated Griselbrand is StP, chancellor says no to this and there is no workaround for it (other than closing your eyes and hoping they miss the trigger). If you're on the draw you will be destroyed, as you can't even resolve vial or mum which are your alternative plays. If you're on the play you can sac a mum/vial to be able to untap and plow the gbrand, while hoping the 14 cards they drew don't include entomb or g/brand + discard or reanimation spells, which is quite impossible. If they show you this as pregame action, about 75% of the times you already lost. Your best out is to cast through a Cavern a Containment Priest if you're on the play and they don't have the T1.

Unmask - This is the free discard spell that will get rid of your outs while they go off drawing cards off griselbrand. This card seals games before they get started for D&T players.

Sire of Insanity - The weakest T1 reanimation route of BR Reanimator is still incredibly strong against D&T, as it forces you to topdeck both a white producing land and a removal spell in 4 turns.

Add to this Thoughtseize and you can find yourself very behind very fast.

The MU is incredibly rough as long as they have a decent draw. They can go for GBrand and wreck your hand, Tyrant and never let you develop, or Elesh Norn and force you to go topdeck mode into Karakas. It's the complete opposite of UB Reanimator.

Off the board there is Massacre too, and some builds even run Burning Wish for it.

[Quentin Coldman]

Sire of Insanity - The weakest T1 reanimation route of BR Reanimator is still incredibly strong against D&T, as it forces you to topdeck both a white producing land and a removal spell in 4 turns.


I really don't like Sire against D&T. Sure Turn 1 on the play it's probably the win and they can't bounce him.with Karakas, but u never want him on the draw, because he can be blocked from Mother like forever, and from the side they bring in Path to Exile, so more outs to topdeck with 1 land in play.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Am I alone in feeling that Chancellor of the Annex is the worst re-animation target? Spending your entire hand on a T1 Chancellor presents both the slowest clock and the most disruptable plan, as you aren't pressuring your opponent enough to close the game out. It's only advantageous on the play as counter protection, and on the draw it doesn't protect against Surgical Extraction or counters anyways. There are a lot of decks that I end up cutting them against because it just isn't an effective threat on its own. On the draw, I'd rather just Thoughtseize/Unmask my opponent to strip their hate and Decay whatever they manage to drop.

The deck seems to work best when your opener has:
- Fast mana (Petal or Chrome Mox or Ritual)
- Bin effect (Griselbrand + Looting or Entomb)
- Re-animation spell (Reanimate OR Exhume if you have a Ritual)
- Chancellor

Without all of those at once, I'd rather try and strip my opponents hand while I draw into what I need than half-combo out, and drawing into Chancellor feels really bad. I'm coming around to Unmask being a far superior build, as a 0-mana bin effect significantly reduces your need for the "right" kind of fast mana. I'm also considering Chrome Mox over Simian Spirit Guide, as the fact that some of your fast mana only casts Looting is a big problem.

[tarmogoat]

I really don't like Sire against D&T. Sure Turn 1 on the play it's probably the win and they can't bounce him.with Karakas, but u never want him on the draw, because he can be blocked from Mother like forever, and from the side they bring in Path to Exile, so more outs to topdeck with 1 land in play.

It's just to illustrste that BR's weakest plan is still very strong against D&T, as they have to draw stp to kill the threat and restart the game, or mom and survive up to next turn to efficiently block. While they have those draws live, we have reanimations, entombs and fattys live. The point is, even the worst t1 from BR can easily kill D&T, and UB reanimator is somewhat a good match for D&T, so the point needs to be made.

[bcoutlander]

Am I alone in feeling that Chancellor of the Annex is the worst re-animation target? Spending your entire hand on a T1 Chancellor presents both the slowest clock and the most disruptable plan, as you aren't pressuring your opponent enough to close the game out. It's only advantageous on the play as counter protection, and on the draw it doesn't protect against Surgical Extraction or counters anyways. There are a lot of decks that I end up cutting them against because it just isn't an effective threat on its own. On the draw, I'd rather just Thoughtseize/Unmask my opponent to strip their hate and Decay whatever they manage to drop.

The deck seems to work best when your opener has:
- Fast mana (Petal or Chrome Mox or Ritual)
- Bin effect (Griselbrand + Looting or Entomb)
- Re-animation spell (Reanimate OR Exhume if you have a Ritual)
- Chancellor

Without all of those at once, I'd rather try and strip my opponents hand while I draw into what I need than half-combo out, and drawing into Chancellor feels really bad. I'm coming around to Unmask being a far superior build, as a 0-mana bin effect significantly reduces your need for the "right" kind of fast mana. I'm also considering Chrome Mox over Simian Spirit Guide, as the fact that some of your fast mana only casts Looting is a big problem.

On the play I find Chancellor to be a good start vs. any opponent; don't underestimate them having to pay 2 for their first spell and a force spike for everything after that until the Chancellor is gone. Now, on the draw it definitely doesn't feel as strong and will usually reanimate Griselbrand or a Tidespout if I have the option to do so.

And I just started testing a build with 4 Unmask and 3 Collective Brutality. This combination seems to be pretty effective so far in about 25 games on paper. Still haven't been able to bring myself to buy the Unmasks online.


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[Nocley]

And I just started testing a build with 4 Unmask and 3 Collective Brutality. This combination seems to be pretty effective so far in about 25 games on paper. Still haven't been able to bring myself to buy the Unmasks online.



What did you cut to support that? What does it set your MD to?

[xix]

What did you cut to support that? What does it set your MD to?

He said in earlier post he was playing a list close to the chiba, Id imagine, he dropped down on 1 animate or a few SSG's.

I have been circling a similar choice as my maindeck seems pretty set to run 4 SSG, with a red sideboard, I still need to test the white sideboard, but honestly, most of the tweaks are more meta based than a deck id take to a large event.

My Sideboard is currently running these flex spots (local meta):
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Massacre/Surgical/ashen rider - DnT was big, now its less so, surgical hits the turbo depths/other reanimator and combo guys/2 people on show and tell out of 20, but wotc software always makes me play vs both, so ashen rider ?

My discard package is currently. (I have been happy with it)
2 CB
1 Unmask
2 TS

Collective Brutality two feels about right, a third is nice sometimes, but I don't think I want it over the unmask/thoughtseize it would replace
Thoughtseize general catchall good card, I run two, was thinking of a third before I added CB, now its fighting with the unmask spots
Unmask its faster, its free, but after the opening turns I want to see it less than thoughtseize just because being able to pitch a card is sometimes a issue.

Other thoughts were:
CB to the sideboard up unmask to 3/2 split with thoughtseize.
Drop thoughtseize for 3 MD Unmask

Regardless, I still want 2 CB in my 75 100% of the time, so if it go pushed to sideboard then I am losing two of my flex spots.


I have only been losing the lands in the finals recently, but maybe when I win a dice roll and they don't always have turn 1 mana bond/exploration/loam/ dark depths/stage/crop rotation/fetch as the first 7 cards I can win with my turn 1 gb :mad:

PS @ earlier post about tidespout: He needs to be in the main deck, if you want that iona in main deck consider dropping a sire

[Quentin Coldman]

PS @ earlier post about tidespout: He needs to be in the main deck, if you want that iona in main deck consider dropping a sire

Why that? There are only 2 matchups where I really want him als favorite reanimationtarget, Mirror and Lands. And against those two decks I can side him in. It's definitly a good card, but his spot is imo better in the sideboard. Im UB I can unterstand playing him main, but with free counter + 8 cantrips they can support him much better. In most cases out hand is empty, when we got the fattie on the battlefield.

[16km]

Tidespout is a great answer when you're stuck in a tough spot.

He's also pretty good against Eldrazi, getting around Karakas, against Delver decks that slowed you down. I don't think he's the first target you want, but if you didn't start off with a Chancelor, or they got around that and countered your turn 1, he's pretty helpful.

Anytime I've been in a tight spot, Tidespout saves the day. I almost never board him out because he's a game changer.

[xix]

Why that? There are only 2 matchups where I really want him als favorite reanimationtarget, Mirror and Lands. And against those two decks I can side him in. It's definitly a good card, but his spot is imo better in the sideboard. Im UB I can unterstand playing him main, but with free counter + 8 cantrips they can support him much better. In most cases out hand is empty, when we got the fattie on the battlefield.

Maybe fringe use, but I have used him to bounce defending creatures/artifacts that people have even in game 1, also recently bounced my own land so I could replay it and make enough mana, Hes just too useful.

[bcoutlander]

What did you cut to support that? What does it set your MD to?

Sorry for the late reply been a crazy couple days for me. From the Chiba list I removed 1 Animat e Dead and 1 Sire of Insanity.

Currently, I keep going back and forth on the Simian Spirit Guides. I really like the explosiveness potential of them but I like having more reanimation targets as well. Here's my current main without the SSG's:
4 Chancellor
4 Griselbrand
2 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Ashen Rider
1 Empyrial Archangel

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Animate Dead
3 Collective Brutality

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Badland
2 Swamp

This has been playing pretty well for me in testing as well. The Ashen Rider is in the main because I've always like having that available in the Lands matchup g1 to get rid of Maze, Stage, Depths or Marit Lage. Empryial is another card I've really liked vs. D&T, burn and the delver decks since it's a big blocker and very hard for them to remove.


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[RhoxWarMonk]

Seems if you play unmask you need to cut either CB, Thoughtseize or spirit guides. I'm struggling with this as well. Unmask was better than I expected but I still miss the spirit guides for explosive hands and Thoughtseize is such a good card, makes it hard to cut.

Been thinking of cutting a sire and an Animate Dead for a couple brutality and then add in the guides or thoughseizes but really impossible to find room for both. Also, ssg is quite good for those who are playing sneak attack in the sb. Maybe the 4x Thoughtseize can go into the board? Are they even needed if they are not in the main?

[bcoutlander]

I find the Thoughtseize feels unnecessary if you're running Unmask/CB. I definitely am considering adding the SSGs back in; just not sure what to cut. From my previously posted MB I'd probably cut the Empryial Archangel, a Sire, a fetch land and maybe 1 CB.


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[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Some random thoughts on SSG and Unmask and another fast mana option, Chrome Mox

SSG Pros:
- You can dagger blue players by paying for Daze
- Enables Faithless Looting pre-land-drop
- Can't be countered

Chrome Mox Pros:
- Produces black mana, lets you cast everything else in your deck

Having a fast mana source that doesn't produce black seems really awkward. If you have SSG in your opener, you still need a land and either Petal or Ritual to Entomb + re-animate, so it only enables you to Turn 1 if you either Loot and are able to put a creature in the graveyard, or you're using an Exhume/AD and didn't have a Ritual.

Chrome Mox, on the other hand, can produce black almost always, and red if you exile a Sire of Insanity. You're losing a card, but if you're going for a T1 play you likely have one to spare. Look at these T1 plays, and remember that Unmask + black card is way more likely to be in your opener than exactly SSG + Looting

Unmask on self = fatty in graveyard, now you have 4 of your top 7 in hand
SSG => Looting = fatty in graveyard, now you have 5 of your top 9 in hand
Land/Petal => Reanimate
Land => Ritual => Exhume/AD
Land + Petal => Exhume/AD
Chrome Mox + black card => Re-animate
Land + Chrome Mox + black card => Exhume/AD

If you're running SSG, you're implicitly using Faithless Looting to put cards into your GY rather than self-discard or Entomb, and if that's the case you may not be able to afford to exile cards to Chrome Mox or Unmask, as you may need to actually cast them.

[JPoJohnson]

Got my new decklist together. It's pretty standard I believe with the exception of a weird land or two to facilitate a flexible sideboard. Let me know if I'm missing any cards that should be considered in the sideboard or if you have strong arguements against my 60. Always love getting feedback towards improving my deck(s). (:

13 Lands
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Badlands
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp

9 Creatures
4x Chancellor of the Annex
3x Griselbrand
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Sire of Insanity

10 Fast Mana
2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual

12 Reanimation Spells
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead

16 Support
4x Entomb
4x Faithless Looting
4x Unmask
2x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality

Sideboard (All potential cards I may use... I always build out the sideboard on site/just before the tournament)
Ancient Tomb
Ashen Rider
Blazing Archon
Blood Moon
Collective Brutality
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Empyrial Archangel
Faerie Macabre
Grave Titan
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Massacre
Pithing Needle
Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
Show and Tell
Sneak Attack
Stronghold Gambit
Wear // Tear

[TokenMaster]

A little curious, are there big advantages pre-board to using B/R vs U/B if you're not running Simian Spirit Guide? for the most part you're replacing Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will with Unmask, more reanimation, and different fatties, right? Careful Study serves the same purpose as Faithless Looting aside from a lack of flashback.(though admittedly I don't know how often the flashback comes up, probably more often than I think)

I rather like B/R post-board though because Stronghold Gambit is pretty cool, especially with all the discard we run. REB/Pyroblast is also sweet.

[JPoJohnson]

The reason that I go for BR versus UB:
1. It's faster - It'll race most combo decks and outrace some hate.

2. It's resilient - It doesn't just *poof* get shut down like a lot of different combo decks. If you flop or get shut down, you can often go for it a turn or two later (or even in the same turn) quite easily.

3. It's protected - Why exile a card to counter a spell when you can just reveal Chancellor of the Annex T0 and combo off safely?

4. It's flexible - You can really build it with any splash, or none at all. It has access to all the sideboard cards it needs to fight hate in game 2/3 proactively and re-actively. It can also go into different colors to avoid some hate.

[Quentin Coldman]

13 Lands
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Badlands
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp

9 Creatures
4x Chancellor of the Annex
3x Griselbrand
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Sire of Insanity

10 Fast Mana
2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual

12 Reanimation Spells
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead

16 Support
4x Entomb
4x Faithless Looting
4x Unmask
2x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality

Sideboard (All potential cards I may use... I always build out the sideboard on site/just before the tournament)
Ancient Tomb
Ashen Rider
Blazing Archon
Blood Moon
Collective Brutality
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Empyrial Archangel
Faerie Macabre
Grave Titan
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Massacre
Pithing Needle
Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
Show and Tell
Sneak Attack
Stronghold Gambit
Wear // Tear

I don't think u need Wear // Tear AND Show and Tell in the Sideboard. They're both answers for the same problems. When you cut the Usea or Scrubland u have space for the third Badlands. Also why only 9 creatures? With Collective Brutality main I'd definitly run 10-11.

[wildkarrde_]

This might be a dumb question, but vs Counterbalance, does a split card like Wear//Tear get countered to a one drop or two drop regardless of what spell you cast?

Also, what is the upside of Red Elemental Blast over Pyroblast. It seems like the latter is the better card.

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[JPoJohnson]

@Quentin - I don't run all those cards as my sideboard, just possible cards.

I didn't mention it, but I definitely swap either the scrubland or the sea for a badlands based on my sideboarding.

I like collective brutality in the main because it's a protected way to get a fatty in the yard. It takes a counterspell every time regardless of whether it resolves and sets up for powerful plays. Which fatties do you feel I should include additionally beyond what I have? The fourth grisel is the only one I feel I could include that isn't there right now.

[TokenMaster]

Also, what is the upside of Red Elemental Blast over Pyroblast. It seems like the latter is the better card.

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Pyroblast is easier to redirect as it can target anything. Decks often run a combination of the 2 in case things like Meddling Mage or Nevermore are played.

[Quentin Coldman]

I like collective brutality in the main because it's a protected way to get a fatty in the yard. It takes a counterspell every time regardless of whether it resolves and sets up for powerful plays. Which fatties do you feel I should include additionally beyond what I have? The fourth grisel is the only one I feel I could include that isn't there right now.

Fourth Grisel is an option. I'm really a fan of Grave Titan, against so many decks he's just awesome like Delver, D&T, Eldrazi, Lands, Aggro Loam.... Also it's not impossible to make the hardcast, and he's not as bad as Sire on turn 3+

[JPoJohnson]

I like him as well. He's in the sideboard right now, but with the right meta I do put him in the main.

[DNSolver]

I definitely like Grave Titan more than Sire.

I've been less impressed with Chancellor as I've played a few more games with the deck for the first time in awhile. A Chancellor-less version I'm thinking about would be probably be like:

4 Griselbrand
3 Grave Titan
1 Tidespout
1 Iona
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Children of Korlis (plan is to get Griselbrand -> Iona + Archetype)
12 reanimation
8 discard
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
8 fast mana
13 land inc. 1 Bayou

some sideboard, no creatures in the sideboard

[KnightJay96]

I definitely like Grave Titan more than Sire.

I've been less impressed with Chancellor as I've played a few more games with the deck for the first time in awhile.



I would agree on the Chancellor being kinda of unimpressive as a reanimation target. Cutting it and adding more silver bullets might be better. I like the Idea of Child of Korlis -> Silver Bullet/Tendrils of Agony. My idead for a chancellor-less list:

12x Creatures/Win Con
4x Girselbrand
1x Tidespout
1x Iona
1x Elesh Norn
1x Sire of Insanity
2x Grave Titan
1x Child of Korlis
1x Tendrils of Agony

12x Reanimation Spells
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead

8x Extra Mana
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal

8x Bin Cards
4x Entomb
4x Faithless Looting

6x Hand Disruption
4x Unmask
2x Collective Brutality (My meta is filled with DRS)

14x Land
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Polluted Delta
4x Badlands
1x Bayou
2x Swamp

15x Sideboard
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Pithing Needle
1x Collective Brutality
2x Faere Macabre (or Coffin Purge)
1x Blazing Archon
1x Ashen Rider
4x Revenant Silence

[crowe_1]

The reason that I go for BR versus UB:
1. It's faster - It'll race most combo decks and outrace some hate.

2. It's resilient - It doesn't just *poof* get shut down like a lot of different combo decks. If you flop or get shut down, you can often go for it a turn or two later (or even in the same turn) quite easily.

3. It's protected - Why exile a card to counter a spell when you can just reveal Chancellor of the Annex T0 and combo off safely?

4. It's flexible - You can really build it with any splash, or none at all. It has access to all the sideboard cards it needs to fight hate in game 2/3 proactively and re-actively. It can also go into different colors to avoid some hate.

Not knocking on BR as it definitely has strengths vs U/B at the moment, but in all of these areas except point 1 U/B is superior. Even then:

- U/B is faster than every other combo deck aside from B/R Reanimator, Belcher and Oops, the latter two of which which are also faster than R/B anyway so that point is often moot. B/R is faster, don't get me wrong, but U/B is still a turn 1-2 combo deck. R/B's strength lies in more consistently getting under DRS and Chalice.

- U/B does not just go *poof* and get shut down. Aside from R/B's better ability to get under DRS and Chalice, U/B is harder to shut down than R/B as FoW is better than Chancellor in more situations beyond the first turn, and BS/Ponder make rebuilding a ruined hand far more likely when things do go wrong.

- Chancellor gets compared to FoW when in actuality it fills the role of Daze most of the time (anytime other than turn zero). U/B gets to use both FoW and Daze anyway for a higher chance of free disruption; same odds on the draw (FoW vs Chancellor) and up to twice as much on the play (FoW + Daze vs Chancellor). Even in the R/B decks running Unmask, the amount of disruption/protection only arguably equals, but not exceeds that in U/B; and, again, Brainstorm and Ponder help you find your disruption at the cost of a little speed. Chancellor is perfectly effective during the faster turn one hands on the play, but I'd argue that it's worse than FoW and Daze for disruption otherwise. Chancellor's real strength is that it doubles as a reanimation target IMO. That is an angle of redundancy not inherent to U/B.

- U/B splashes for third and fourth colours successfully for SB cards, and Brainstorm/Ponder make finding the sideboard cards far more likely. Not sure about how this is a plus for R/B.

Don't get me wrong; I believe R/B stands on its own as a separate deck from U/B with relative strengths and weaknesses, so I don't feel running R/B relative to U/B needs to be justified at this point. Just thought these points of comparison seemed a little off, though I may be misunderstanding the poster somehow.

[JPoJohnson]

Not knocking on BR as it definitely has strengths vs U/B at the moment, but in all of these areas except point 1 U/B is superior. Even then:

- U/B is faster than every other combo deck aside from B/R Reanimator, Belcher and Oops, the latter two of which which are also faster than R/B anyway so that point is often moot. B/R is faster, don't get me wrong, but U/B is still a turn 1-2 combo deck. R/B's strength lies in more consistently getting under DRS and Chalice.

- U/B does not just go *poof* and get shut down. Aside from R/B's better ability to get under DRS and Chalice, U/B is harder to shut down than R/B as FoW is better than Chancellor in more situations beyond the first turn, and BS/Ponder make rebuilding a ruined hand far more likely when things do go wrong.

- Chancellor gets compared to FoW when in actuality it fills the role of Daze most of the time (anytime other than turn zero). U/B gets to use both FoW and Daze anyway for a higher chance of free disruption; same odds on the draw (FoW vs Chancellor) and up to twice as much on the play (FoW + Daze vs Chancellor). Even in the R/B decks running Unmask, the amount of disruption/protection only arguably equals, but not exceeds that in U/B; and, again, Brainstorm and Ponder help you find your disruption at the cost of a little speed. Chancellor is perfectly effective during the faster turn one hands on the play, but I'd argue that it's worse than FoW and Daze for disruption otherwise. Chancellor's real strength is that it doubles as a reanimation target IMO. That is an angle of redundancy not inherent to U/B.

- U/B splashes for third and fourth colours successfully for SB cards, and Brainstorm/Ponder make finding the sideboard cards far more likely. Not sure about how this is a plus for R/B.

Don't get me wrong; I believe R/B stands on its own as a separate deck from U/B with relative strengths and weaknesses, so I don't feel running R/B relative to U/B needs to be justified at this point. Just thought these points of comparison seemed a little off, though I may be misunderstanding the poster somehow.

Sure sure, I think both decks are solid for different reasons.

The only thing I want to add some depth to is the fact that I feel BR splashes easier than UB. BR is almost exclusively black and it isn't hard to dip into other colors without affecting much. UB has a split of colors that also requires a certain concentration of blue in order to support the FoW. I feel like BR splashes easier and is more flexible with the colors because of this.

UB is still a solid solid deck that has great game.

[crowe_1]

I can see what you mean. Didn't quite understand what you meant about the splashes in your previous post. It's true that you are losing less fetching a Bayou in R/B than in U/B. I still think you're more likely to pull the actual sideboard cards in U/B though, so it's probably close to a wash.

One thing I find interesting about B/R is that Collective Brutality aside, all the cards in the deck have existed forever but it's only now that it's become a legit deck. Can't help but wonder what other decks might be possible that just haven't been put together yet.

[JPoJohnson]

One thing I find interesting about B/R is that Collective Brutality aside, all the cards in the deck have existed forever but it's only now that it's become a legit deck. Can't help but wonder what other decks might be possible that just haven't been put together yet.

Be right back, combing through niche decklists.

[jroharo]

Went 3-0-1 (ID'd finals) last night at weekly legacy with this:


Creatures: 11
2 Sire of Insanity
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Tidespout Tyrant

Fast Mana: 8
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

Discard: 8
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask

Card Selection: 8
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb

Reanimation: 11
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead

Lands: 14
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta

SB: 15
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Stronghold Gambit
1 Massacre
3 Reverent Silence

M1: Pox (2-1)
M2: UBg Reanimator (2-0)
M3: D&T (2-1)
M4: Shardless (0-0-3)

Going forward, I'm going to drop a basic swamp for another Bayou. Didn't like being so vulnerable to wasteland in post-board games (specifically against D&T).

My question for you gents is this: should I drop the Grave Titan in the sideboard for an Archetype of Endurance? And should I try to make room in my board for 2-3 Blood Moon, or is that just not worth it?

[bbogdon]

When I first saw this deck win the Euro Eternal Wknd i was very intrigued. Since the deck was so affordable I couldn't resist. As a longtime fair-deck player, I wondered if i would be able to switch gears into something so explosive. The answer is Yes. After assembling the deck I only goldfished it for a few days before playing in 2 GPT's for Louisville. I went a combined 10-2-2 winning* the GPT on the second day (opponents in quarters and finals had their byes already). I was playing the below list which is essentially the Euro EW list + decay.

4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Griselbrand
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Grave Titan
1 Tidespout Tyrant

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Exhume
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Faithless looting
3 Animate Dead
2 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize

3 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta

3 Blood Moon
3 Sneak Attack
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona

Overall, the deck was pretty insane and had multiple instances of people conceding on my turn one to blood moon, sire on insanity, griselbrand/griselbrand+another body. Other MVP's were chancellor of the annex and collective brutality (kinda want to try a third one)

I lost to DnT (gm 3 T1 sire - top deck plains/plow/plains/rip....) and sneak and show (i resolve griselbrand T2 twice and lose). Beat Chandra stompy, esper deathblade, grixis delver, infect, grixis control x2, sneak and show (exact deck as above, dif pilot) and jund. As you can see, i think these are pretty favourable matches, and i managed to dodge eldrazi and miracles. Unfortunately I'm going to be very busy until the GP and won't get to test again, I am considering making the below sideboard changes to shore up creature matches and heavy GY hate matches. Pithing needle was meh, the deck feels like it wants heavy hitters only in the sb.

3 Blood moon
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sneak Attack
2 Stronghold Gambit
2 Thoughtseize
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona

Interested to hear your thought or comments on my choices, also willing to hear about strategies for playing against eldrazi/chalice decks and miracles and other potential sideboard options.

Merry reanimating!

[bbogdon]

Went 3-0-1 (ID'd finals) last night at weekly legacy with this:


Creatures: 11
2 Sire of Insanity
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Tidespout Tyrant

Fast Mana: 8
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

Discard: 8
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask

Card Selection: 8
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb

Reanimation: 11
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead

Lands: 14
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta

SB: 15
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Stronghold Gambit
1 Massacre
3 Reverent Silence

M1: Pox (2-1)
M2: UBg Reanimator (2-0)
M3: D&T (2-1)
M4: Shardless (0-0-3)

Going forward, I'm going to drop a basic swamp for another Bayou. Didn't like being so vulnerable to wasteland in post-board games (specifically against D&T).

My question for you gents is this: should I drop the Grave Titan in the sideboard for an Archetype of Endurance? And should I try to make room in my board for 2-3 Blood Moon, or is that just not worth it?

Based on my somewhat limited experience and opinion I think the blood moon option works best when you have simian spirit guide to cast it on turn 1 more consistently. I am playing 3 + simian and it feels great! I posted my list on here recently, check it out!

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

My question for you gents is this: should I drop the Grave Titan in the sideboard for an Archetype of Endurance? And should I try to make room in my board for 2-3 Blood Moon, or is that just not worth it?

Personal opinion: I don't see the point of Archetype of Endurance in this deck. It's only a singleton so you have to either get lucky or Entomb it out, and do you really want to reanimate it first so that your other "actual" threat is protected? Why wouldn't you just get a Griselbrand first, and draw cards into a second one if/when they remove the first one? Archetype is a defensive threat in a deck that doesn't want to play defense, while Grave Titan is the fastest clock you have.

Blood Moon is a meta call, if you play against a lot of Lands/Loam/Eldrazi and other decks that are likely to run things like Leyline of the Void, Glacial Chasm, Maze of Ith, etc., I think it's a great choice. A deck that tries to lock you down T1, but doesn't kill you until several turns later, seems ripe for being Mooned.

[16km]

My question for you gents is this: should I drop the Grave Titan in the sideboard for an Archetype of Endurance? And should I try to make room in my board for 2-3 Blood Moon, or is that just not worth it?

What do you want the Archetype of Endurance for? I found trying to get Archetype out along with something else is sometimes pretty difficult. Archetype also dies to a bunch of creatures. I found Inkwell Leviathan to be better in most cases.

Not too sure about Blood Moon. I haven't played a game where I really needed it. In match ups where Blood Moon seems good, I go for Sire as my target.

[Zooligan]

What do you want the Archetype of Endurance for? I found trying to get Archetype out along with something else is sometimes pretty difficult. Archetype also dies to a bunch of creatures. I found Inkwell Leviathan to be better in most cases.

Not too sure about Blood Moon. I haven't played a game where I really needed it. In match ups where Blood Moon seems good, I go for Sire as my target.

Archetype is good against decks playing Karakas and StP.

[KnightJay96]

I'm not playing in Louisville in a few weeks, but I got a Legacy FNM this week. Thoughts on my list?

http://i.imgur.com/Mo3sMNz.jpg

[Quentin Coldman]

Do you really need Decay, Brutality AND Massacre in the sideboard? Seems like a little bit too much 4 me.

[Doneval]

I haven't seen many lists running Ashen Rider, but it seems like a great option against the mirror (especially on the draw). Thoughts?

[DNSolver]

I haven't seen many lists running Ashen Rider, but it seems like a great option against the mirror (especially on the draw). Thoughts?

Ashen Rider doesn't do anything.

If they made Griselbrand, they already drew a billion cards. You should also, given the chance.

If they made Iona on black, you're dead. Now you can't make Ashen Rider.

If it's post-board, you should have grave hate like Faerie Macabre.

If anything, the creature that deals with permanents is Tidespout Tyrant.

[elFinFas]

Hy,
I'm new arround here and i have a doubt!
What matchups we should use the stronghold gambit and what's the tech?!
Because al the matchups i imagine ti side it in have creatures whith lowest converted mana cost!
Thanks [emoji2]


Enviado do meu iPhone usando o Tapatalk

[Whitefaces]

Hy,
I'm new arround here and i have a doubt!
What matchups we should use the stronghold gambit and what's the tech?!
Because al the matchups i imagine ti side it in have creatures whith lowest converted mana cost!
Thanks [emoji2]


Enviado do meu iPhone usando o Tapatalk

You sideboard it in vs decks with very few or no creatures usually when you suspect they will sideboard into GY hate. You can clear the way with Thoughtseize and Unmask too to make sure you get your creature into play.

[Quentin Coldman]

I haven't seen many lists running Ashen Rider, but it seems like a great option against the mirror (especially on the draw). Thoughts?

I play always with one in the sideboard an he's quit good. Vs Mirror u can Entomb in resp to Exhume or put him into Show and Tell. Tidespout Tyrant does more or less the same, but both are playable.

[Richard Cheese]

I definitely like Grave Titan more than Sire.

I've been less impressed with Chancellor as I've played a few more games with the deck for the first time in awhile. A Chancellor-less version I'm thinking about would be probably be like:

4 Griselbrand
3 Grave Titan
1 Tidespout
1 Iona
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Children of Korlis (plan is to get Griselbrand -> Iona + Archetype)
12 reanimation
8 discard
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
8 fast mana
13 land inc. 1 Bayou

some sideboard, no creatures in the sideboard

This is interesting, because I've been talking to TinFins players about the possibility of adding Chancellors and Brutality because of how much better they make Chalice matchups. To me that's one of the main strengths of this deck vs. UB or TinFins. Are you not finding them to be very helpful there?

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Chancellor is good in your opening hand, but really mediocre in every other situation, and even mediocre in your opener if it's your only reanimation target. Getting it out on T1 still gives your opponent at least 4-5 turns to find an answer while you have to hope to draw into a second threat. The protection it offers may not be worth it if it harms the deck's ability to end the game fast.


Hy,
I'm new arround here and i have a doubt!
What matchups we should use the stronghold gambit and what's the tech?!
Because al the matchups i imagine ti side it in have creatures whith lowest converted mana cost!
Thanks [emoji2]


Enviado do meu iPhone usando o Tapatalk

Your lowest CMC creature is 6 (Sire of Insanity/Grave Titan), but more likely 8 (Griselbrand). So what decks don't run any creatures with a CMC less than 8?

- Lands
- Storm (TES runs Xantid Swarm but isn't likely to bring it in unless they think you're on blue)
- Belcher
- 12-Post
- Omnitell
- Enchantress

If you're against a deck with a low number of creatures, you can even start with a Thoughtseize to make them discard their creature or Brainstorm, then SG to get your own into play while they get nothing. It's a high-risk high-reward play, but then again, so is this entire deck. :P

[Quentin Coldman]

- Lands
- Storm (TES runs Xantid Swarm but isn't likely to bring it in unless they think you're on blue)
- Belcher
- 12-Post
- Omnitell
- Enchantress


12 Post runs Primeval Titan, Enchantress runs Argothian Enchantress, Belcher runs Simian Spirit Guide or Elvish Spirit Guide and Lands definitly brings Tireless Tracker :P

I know we like to discard or opponents first, but nevertheless Stronghold Gambit is not that good in the current meta. Also none of the mentioned matchups are bad. Lands can be toughsometimes, but if u wanna beat Lands just play Blood Moon.

[DNSolver]

if u wanna beat Lands just play Blood Moon.

Or Tidespout Tyrant?

[gRR!!]

Lands can be toughsometimes, but if u wanna beat Lands just play Blood Moon.

Is it worth try to play Blood Moon without Simian Spirit Guide? I'm trying to squeeze 2/3 Moons in the sideboard, but I also want to play Unmask main (so I don't have space for SSG)

[bbogdon]

What do u guys think about Inferno titan as a 3rd (sire + grave titan) hard-castable MD threat (playing SSG) in an effort to shore up matches with RIP, LoTV, Chalice and Karakas?

[DNSolver]

Inferno Titan? Really? No, I don't think it's playable.

Whenever someone is going to suggest a creature threat, or a potential sideboard card, consider the roles we already have covered:

Griselbrand: Wins the game
Iona: beats combo, locks out opponents without Karakas
Archetype of Endurance: beats Karakas
Tidespout: beats permanent-based combo decks (Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Dark Depths) while also locking out Lands and various stax decks
Grave Titan: beats Karakas / Maze while providing sufficient value against StP
Inkwell Leviathan: An Archetype effect that is a slightly faster clock
Elesh Norn: kills stupid creatures

Inferno Titan doesn't do anything that we are looking for. Elesh Norn is better at dealing with tons of creatures, and both of them die to StP.

Same thing with sideboard cards. Right now the two plans that take up the majority of sideboards are:

Reactive: Abrupt Decay, Reverent Silence package or Wear/Tear
Proactive: Sneak Attack, Blood Moon

People suggest something like Pithing Needle: the only card you could want this for is Karakas, because both existing plans can beat pretty much anything else. Why not just play a creature or two that beats Karakas + StP?

Sideboard plan I'm looking for (feel free to suggest): a way to beat Grixis Delver on the draw without Blood Moon. Right now Blood Moon is the best plan that I've heard of.

[tarmogoat]

Sideboard plan I'm looking for (feel free to suggest): a way to beat Grixis Delver on the draw without Blood Moon. Right now Blood Moon is the best plan that I've heard of.

How about Platinum Emperion? their removal can't take it (unless triple bolt or bolt + dismember) and it's a great clock. It also has the benefit of giving you Madcap Experiment as another GY hate tool (meaning it's not just good against one deck in particular), and is also an engine that requires only 1 card to go off (besides ramp) unlike Sneak Attack, Stronghold Gambit or Show and Tell. The idea might be too far fetched though, feels kinda cute but it could work. This plan (if the experiment is added to board as well) would imply siding out Petals so maybe in a monkey version is not too crazy.

[Quentin Coldman]

It's not important what creature you get out vs Delver even Chancellor of the Annex is good enough if we can reanimate him early. My plan vs Grixis is always to beat him.with tempo Brutality handels the Shaman and the only other hate they usually play is Surgical Extraction. If you really fear the matchup I'd play Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard, helps u to play around all softcounter and helps hardcasting Grave Titan, Sire of Insanity or other creatures.

The Medcap Experiment plan is not a good idea. If u want to play a c4 card just play Sneak Attack.

[Luklinda]

How about Platinum Emperion? their removal can't take it (unless triple bolt or bolt + dismember) and it's a great clock. It also has the benefit of giving you Madcap Experiment as another GY hate tool (meaning it's not just good against one deck in particular), and is also an engine that requires only 1 card to go off (besides ramp) unlike Sneak Attack, Stronghold Gambit or Show and Tell. The idea might be too far fetched though, feels kinda cute but it could work. This plan (if the experiment is added to board as well) would imply siding out Petals so maybe in a monkey version is not too crazy.

Bad card is bad. No evasion, no protection, no impact on game state. 174% out classed by Wurmcoil Engine, which is also sub-par.

EDIT for clarity:



Sideboard plan I'm looking for (feel free to suggest): a way to beat Grixis Delver on the draw without Blood Moon. Right now Blood Moon is the best plan that I've heard of.

Back on track, the card you want is Sphinx of the Steel Wind against grixis delver as they have marginal ways to deal with it (flipped delver block + dismember). And the lifelink makes for easy secondary reanimation/second target.

[Rocco111]

It is great to see how lively this thread is and I feel pretty happy to notice how much traction the deck gained this year.

This being said, I think people should relax a bit when it comes to justifying why this creature should be played while this one should.
Imho I see no reason to play Archetype of Endurance. Like, really none. I consider the card to be overkill and so do not see a reason to include it in my 75.
On the other hand, I could make a case for Ashen Rider which is probably our best answer to Show n Tell decks or to hate like Leyline (when playing with Stronghold Gambit or S.Attack). I think the list who toped 8 in Chiba was a clear example pointing at the fact that the card IS useful, maybe given a certain meta that is (because as much as I like the Rider, playing 2 seems a tad heavy still).
Moving to Inferno Titan, again, despite a rather well constructed case made against him, let's not forget that the capacity to inflict 6 to 12 damages when coupled with Sneak Attack can make it quite the finisher we need in some situations. Not in all, this is true. Also, the card is not legendary, as it was really pointed at. Admitedly, depending on the board state and the MU, Grave Titan might be better if the opponent is playing StP, for instance, while when dealing with SnT, Inferno Titan would likely be better. When facing a Liliana already on the board, I reckon that both Titans are good. Inferno being even able to bolt her face when you bring it on the board. While Grave will make sure there is always a pawn to sacrifice if needed be. So all in all, I would not discard Inferno Titan as easily as that. I truly think it is more meta-dependant as well as build-orientation dependant (namely a deck running both SSGs and Moons is more likely to get a higher value of Inferno Titan for instance).
My 2 cents

[Doneval]

Sideboard plan I'm looking for (feel free to suggest): a way to beat Grixis Delver on the draw without Blood Moon. Right now Blood Moon is the best plan that I've heard of.
I've played a fair bit against Grixis Delver and they can't deal with a turn 1 or 2 Sire of Insanity. The only problem is getting it out there past the dazes, fow, and surgicals.

[DNSolver]

People misunderstanding my post.

First, Sire of Insanity is beatable with topdeck Dismember. Any creature that beats Dismember is *probably* enough against Delver.

Second, we're looking for a sideboard plan that beats delver outside of the normal reanimation plan. The reanimation plan already wins instantly, but is easily disruptable by Deathrite Shaman, tons of counters, or Surgical Extraction.

Example sideboard plans:

1) 4 Pack Rat / Goblin Rabblemaster / Young Pyromancer or other single-creature-based threat

2) 4 Bitterblossom

3) Gurmag Angler / Tasigur delve creatures

4) simple 3-4 Collective Brutality approach

[The_Dingo]

Back on track, the card you want is Sphinx of the Steel Wind against grixis delver as they have marginal ways to deal with it (flipped delver block + dismember). And the lifelink makes for easy secondary reanimation/second target.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

People misunderstanding my post.
1) 4 Pack Rat / Goblin Rabblemaster / Young Pyromancer or other single-creature-based threat

2) 4 Bitterblossom

3) Gurmag Angler / Tasigur delve creatures

4) simple 3-4 Collective Brutality approach

I think 2 and 4 are your best bets. Grixis doesn't have a whole lot of enchantment removal by default, it's likely in the form of Abrupt Decay which they almost certainly won't bring in against this deck. And Collective Brutality hits Grixis in all the ways it doesn't want to be hit. Any small single creature is just going to get Bolted, and Pack Rat is too expensive. If they have an active DRS and you can't re-animate, you won't be able to Delve reliably either.

[Jeff]

I've got about 30 matches under my belt with the deck right now, so I'm very new to it. Thinking about different Grixis sideboard options, is there any value in siding Wasteland? Most Grixis builds you can waste their single trop and then deathrite is neutralized, and it also answers Karakas against D&T and Lands, which is nice splash damage.

I haven't tested this or given it more than 5 minutes of thought, so maybe it's a terrible idea, but I figured I'd throw it out there and see what stuck.

Alternately, it certainly sounds like a matchup where Phyrexian Obliterator would excel. They don't run *that* many dismembers, do they?

[btm10]

1) 4 Pack Rat / Goblin Rabblemaster / Young Pyromancer or other single-creature-based threat


I don't play a ton of Reanimator, but I've tried the Pack Rat approach in the past and it was really good. They're pretty unlikely to keep Bolt against you, and 1 removal spell doesn't answer the Rat if you have 2B up when it resolves.

[Quentin Coldman]

Phyrexian Obliterator is definitly an option. I tried him out and he's awesome in some matchups especially Delver. Removal is not a problem, they are boarding it out normally, a smart player knows when the creature is on the battlefield it's too late. LTogether with Carpet of Flowers Obliterator is even stronger. Also Grave Titan and Sire are easy to hardcast and the card beats all softcounter. Trust me and give it a try. :D with 2 Carpets on the board it's also very easy to hardcast Griselbrand, really great card in all Delver matchups. But why fear Grixis? Not our best matchup, but I had more problems with BUG and the deck is not that important atm because everybody plays Grixis and the matchup is imo better.

[Jeff]

I've found that the "once a creature is on the battlefield it's too late" approach from UB Reanimator isn't nearly as true with this deck. I've lost multiple games with a big creature in play. It's still really good, but not being able to draw into Force is disappointing.

It's a tradeoff I'm willing to make in order to get as many T1 kills as I get, but if you let them make a few land drops and deal some damage to you, you can be in real trouble even with whatever creature you happen to get. And without Brainstorm/Ponder to help filter, sometimes you're just stuck with whatever you draw, not the best creature for the matchup.

I've been playing around with Stronghold Gambit as my sideboard anti-hate, but I want to test a Grave Titan/Obliterator package at some point. Could use Carpet, could use Lake of the Dead. I like the idea of having Obliterator though.

[Luklinda]

People misunderstanding my post.

First, Sire of Insanity is beatable with topdeck Dismember. Any creature that beats Dismember is *probably* enough against Delver.

Second, we're looking for a sideboard plan that beats delver outside of the normal reanimation plan. The reanimation plan already wins instantly, but is easily disruptable by Deathrite Shaman, tons of counters, or Surgical Extraction.

Example sideboard plans:

1) 4 Pack Rat / Goblin Rabblemaster / Young Pyromancer or other single-creature-based threat

2) 4 Bitterblossom

3) Gurmag Angler / Tasigur delve creatures

4) simple 3-4 Collective Brutality approach

past in flames will give you inevitability, synergize with GY plan and 1 DRS can't beat a whole yard of spells, especially with rituals in there.

It's a bit risky and cold to leyline, but it's certainly a very clever out against decks with slower clocks and/or limited GY removal.

Also style points sine UB would need to rely on IGGY to duplicate the effect.

[timmorri]

Grixis delver gets wrecked by elesh norn. Post board is rough, but one thing I've noticed is what they are boarding out. Pyromancer, bolt, the 3/1 merfolk. They drop creature count. Also without bolt, the removal for smaller creatures doesn't exist. Is lavamancer an option to help but time then? Protection against a mass surgical. I think we refill our hand better correct?

[xix]

Is it worth try to play Blood Moon without Simian Spirit Guide? I'm trying to squeeze 2/3 Moons in the sideboard, but I also want to play Unmask main (so I don't have space for SSG)

Can look at a list like Todd Anderson ran I think... 4 SSG 4 Unmask 0 CB/0 TS, with 2 CB in sideboard.


Back on track, the card you want is Sphinx of the Steel Wind against grixis delver as they have marginal ways to deal with it (flipped delver block + dismember). And the lifelink makes for easy secondary reanimation/second target.

I Like this card for delvers as well, it is one of the things I wish I could fit in my Sideboard.


It is great to see how lively this thread is and I feel pretty happy to notice how much traction the deck gained this year.


Imho I see no reason to play Archetype of Endurance. Like, really none. I consider the card to be overkill and so do not see a reason to include it in my 75.
On the other hand, I could make a case for Ashen Rider which is probably our best answer to Show n Tell decks or to hate like Leyline (when playing with Stronghold Gambit or S.Attack). I think the list who toped 8 in Chiba was a clear example pointing at the fact that the card IS useful, maybe given a certain meta that is (because as much as I like the Rider, playing 2 seems a tad heavy still).

Point 1: Traction makes people side vs it more, boo :)
Point 2: I have been debating cutting archetype as well, it is very good, but I kind of feel like if I am reanimating GB and reanimating something else, sire/anything might be just as good for that turn. I had originally, ran Iona maindeck, and archtype forced the inkwell cut/Iona move to sideboard, and I cut down to 1 Sire. (I also run tidespout main)

Titans: I think just like the Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Grave Titan is better in certain metas, I don't think infernal is good enough even in this build. That being said, I like Grave Titan more than Sphinx even vs delver I think, being able to cast grave titan seems like something that could actually happen, just like we can cast Sire, Sphinx just can't be.


Chiba: Show and Tell is extremely popular over there, ashen rider was the concession to the overwhelming number of the decks (and I agree) / I am off Stronghold Gambit, Storm has been hated out decently enough, and too many people play creatures for me to like it, I prefer Sneak Attack


If I end up cutting archtype, then I am going to add inkwell leviathan back to the 75, and for GP Louisville, I am debating adding 1 ashen rider to the sideboard, as it is good vs the uptick of show and tell I am expecting, and has other use vs other matchups.


I am going to be cutting 2 Collective Brutality/2 Thoughtseize from Maindeck, and going back to the 4 unmask/4 SSG plan. (might cut 1 Animate dead and leave 1 Brutality in Main, the card is good)


Here is my current Sideboard:
3 sneak
2 bloodmoon
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona -- Also considering moving this to maindeck in the archtype spot, as it can grab free wins as well. Maybe better than the Grave Titan/Inkwell
1 Blazing Archon
2 Pithing Needle -- 1 of these might get cut if I change MD archtype into maindeck grave titan, and that would force inkwell or archtype to be in this slot
2 red elemental blast -- going to become 2 Collective Brutality when I make the change to 4 unmask again
+
1 Flex spot - Normally Massacre/Surgical/Ashen Rider in this order. For GP Louisville, right now I am flopping between Ashen Rider and Massacre

[Jeff]

Can look at a list like Todd Anderson ran I think... 4 SSG 4 Unmask 0 CB/0 TS, with 2 CB in sideboard.

I don't see SSGs in Todd's list from SCG Baltimore, did he play it again somewhere else with SSGs?

How are people liking Blood Moon out of the board? Over a small sample size, about 30 matches, my worst matchups seem to be BUG/Grixis Delver decks and Eldrazi, both of which Blood Moon is very good against if you can get it down early enough. I'm currently playing a 4 Unmask 0 SSG version of the deck, though, and that means that using Ancient Tomb out of the board to ramp into Blood Moon (and Show and Tell, presumably) is going to be a tough sell, since it'd leave you at two red sources and 0 black sources in play. Is the effect good enough against those decks to be worth screwing with the mana and adding spirit guides somehow? Or is it just a value card.

[elFinFas]

So i made a 20 players "invitacional" Event whit the deck.
This was My list

1-mountain
2-swamp
3-badlands
1-bayou
4-bloodstained mire
2-polluted delta
4-lotus petal
4-dark ritual
4-entomb
4-exhume
4-faithless looting
4-reanimate
4-thoughtseize
4-animate dead
4-unmask
4-griselbrand
4-chancellor of the annex
2-sire of insanity
1-tidespout tyrant

Sideboard
1-blazing archon
3-collective brutality
1-elesh norn
1-iona
2-pithing needle
3-abrupt decay
2-reverent silence
2-surgical extraction

The results
Miracles 2-1
12 post 2-0
4color loam 1-2
Death and taxes 2-0
Goblins 2-0
Infect 2-1

And i lost in the final against Bant tnn 1-2

the deck felt very strong in the first game but not so mutch after sideboard.
I didn't like the green splash!

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

the deck felt very strong in the first game but not so mutch after sideboard.
I didn't like the green splash!

The green vs. white vs. blue vs. none splash decision feels like a metagame call. What kind of hate did you see people bringing in against you during the tournament?

[nonja]

I am playing this deck for a while, so I have tried different lists, different sideboard strategy etc.
Won a local event (5 rounds, top4) with this list:

4x Exhume 
4x Faithless Looting 
4x Reanimate 
4x Thoughtseize 
4x Unmask
3x Badlands
1x Bayou 
4x Bloodstained Mire 
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp 
4x Chancellor of the Annex 
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite 
3x Griselbrand 
1x Sire Of Insanity 
1x Tidespout Tyrant 
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb 
4x Animate Dead 
4x Lotus Petal 

SIDEBOARD
3x Abrupt Decay 
1x Archetype of Endurance 
2x Collective Brutality 
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria 
1x Pithing Needle 
2x Reverent Silence 
3x Stronghold Gambit 
1x Sire of Insanity 
1x Blazing Archon 

Thoughts on MD:
I think too much discussion here is about creatures; it's not the problem: usually it is bigger problem to put in onto battlefield; increasing stability and resistance to before-SB hate is essential point. Because of this reason I really like Unmasks and Chancellors, as they really give you time for setup. Currently I don't see much choice here - maybe in the future, if some good cards will be printed they could be added.
The only thing I consider to change in MD is -2 Thoughtseize +2 Collective Brutality (My meta has way too many DRS).
Regarding muls - usually you want to have these elements: mana, disruption, reanimation spell, entomb OR fatty + discard outlet. If you're missing 2 of the pieces my advice is to mull that hand (especially if this 6 or 7 card hand).
Personally I do not like Tyrant MD, but it is necessary evil :(

SB:
Blood Moon - didn't like it. Yes, it cripples some decks, but it's much better to resolve a fatty to seal a deal
Sneak Attack - didn't like it. There's not so much creatures that is suitable for this effect + it's really costy, so if you don't draw into dark rituals it's slow.
Additional Creatures - depends on meta. Boarded Iona only once during last tournament.
Stronghold Gambit - funny little card, meta call.
I did face these GY hate cards: DRS, Grafdigger's Cage, Nihil Spellbomb, Leyline of the Void, Surgical Extraction, Scavenging Ooze.

[xix]

I don't see SSGs in Todd's list from SCG Baltimore, did he play it again somewhere else with SSGs?

How are people liking Blood Moon out of the board? Over a small sample size, about 30 matches, my worst matchups seem to be BUG/Grixis Delver decks and Eldrazi, both of which Blood Moon is very good against if you can get it down early enough. I'm currently playing a 4 Unmask 0 SSG version of the deck, though, and that means that using Ancient Tomb out of the board to ramp into Blood Moon (and Show and Tell, presumably) is going to be a tough sell, since it'd leave you at two red sources and 0 black sources in play. Is the effect good enough against those decks to be worth screwing with the mana and adding spirit guides somehow? Or is it just a value card.

I think if your doing the 2 U.Sea/show and tell + Tomb sideboard, I don't think I would be on blood moon (this was Todd Andersons list)
If your on a list closer to DNSolver's original posting sans SSG, then that green sideboard plan is better vs trying to board into ancient tomb and blood moon,

Sorry I was thinking of Ken'ichirou Omori @ Chiba, into a higher SnT field... He ran:
Creature [15]
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant
Spell [32]
4 Animate Dead
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lotus Petal
4 Reanimate
4 Unmask
Land [13]
4 Badlands
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
SIDEBOARD [15]
2 Ashen Rider
1 Blazing Archon
2 Collective Brutality
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Massacre
4 Sneak Attack
1 Snuff Out



The green vs. white vs. blue vs. none splash decision feels like a metagame call. What kind of hate did you see people bringing in against you during the tournament?
Agree

[tarmogoat]

People misunderstanding my post.

First, Sire of Insanity is beatable with topdeck Dismember. Any creature that beats Dismember is *probably* enough against Delver.

Second, we're looking for a sideboard plan that beats delver outside of the normal reanimation plan. The reanimation plan already wins instantly, but is easily disruptable by Deathrite Shaman, tons of counters, or Surgical Extraction.

Example sideboard plans:

1) 4 Pack Rat / Goblin Rabblemaster / Young Pyromancer or other single-creature-based threat

2) 4 Bitterblossom

3) Gurmag Angler / Tasigur delve creatures

4) simple 3-4 Collective Brutality approach

I think BB + CB should do if you don't want to go with another reanimation target or Sneak Attack/S&T as your plan against Grixis.

But then I have to ask, what happened to the Burning Wish sideboard plan you were using? Is it too slow to go fetch a Buried Alive? Is it not enough? I've seen you made some 5-0s with that plan so I'm wondering what happened that you want to switch to something else. Is it not that good in paper?

[elFinFas]

The green vs. white vs. blue vs. none splash decision feels like a metagame call. What kind of hate did you see people bringing in against you during the tournament?

People used a lot of surgical extraction!then grafdigers cage ,RIP ,containment priest and the 4c loam player had leylines!

The deck felt realy week after sideboarding!

[elFinFas]

.

[tarmogoat]

People used a lot of surgical extraction!then grafdigers cage ,RIP ,containment priest and the 4c loam player had leylines!

The deck felt realy week after sideboarding!

You could potentially use discard to fight Surgical (although in many cases won't be effective), all other hatecards can be beaten with Nature's Claim, if you're on green splash, Wear // Tear if you're on white, Chain of Vapor/Void Snare/Echoing Truth if you're on blue. If you have no splash, you can fight them with Chaos Warp, Engineered Explosives (misses on Leyline), Ratchet Bomb (too slow vs Leyline maybe) or outright not relying on GY, with Sneak Attack and Stronghold Gambit/Through the Breach. I would't recommend TtB, though, and Gambit is not useful against some number of decks, if you're splashing blue you can also ignore GY with Show and Tell.

[Jeff]

Two sample hands I had today, wondering peoples thoughts on them. Both were T1, blind, on the play.

Hand 1:

Exhume
Exhume
Reanimate
Entomb
Unmask
Faithless Looting
Polluted Delta

I want to spend my mana on turn 1 entombing, then cast either Exhume or Reanimate turn 2 based on whether I draw a second land. That's obvious, I think. The question I had is when to play the Unmask. T1 helps ensure Entomb will resolve, but lets the player know before their first turn what they're playing against (when Polluted Delta | Go doesn't do that), so they can ponder for a Force instead of playing a delver or top or whatever.

You have backups of both the enabler and the reanimation spell, but your backup enabler (looting) isn't guaranteed to work, while your primary one (entomb) is. I ended up casting the Unmask on t1 to ensure the Entomb resolved.

-----------

Hand 2:

Swamp
Badlands
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Entomb
Reanimate
Unmask

If you wait a turn and draw a black card, you can cast unmask and protect the combo, or you can just say "fuck it, you probably don't have force" and go for it. I'm of the opinion that if you want to be a patient combo player waiting for the right turn to combo off, you're playing the wrong version of reanimator, so I just went for it.

Thoughts on either/both hands?

[Dice_Box]

Due to some mistakes in the classification of this deck of TC, I missed that it was a DTB. Thanks to maraxusofkelds pointing out my missing this, you guys have now been upgraded to DTB for the month. So enjoy killing my Lands deck more for the month, you Horrible horrible people.

Oh and that's the third fastest rise to DTB. Congrats.

[Quentin Coldman]

Two sample hands I had today, wondering peoples thoughts on them. Both were T1, blind, on the play.

Hand 1:

Exhume
Exhume
Reanimate
Entomb
Unmask
Faithless Looting
Polluted Delta

I want to spend my mana on turn 1 entombing, then cast either Exhume or Reanimate turn 2 based on whether I draw a second land. That's obvious, I think. The question I had is when to play the Unmask. T1 helps ensure Entomb will resolve, but lets the player know before their first turn what they're playing against (when Polluted Delta | Go doesn't do that), so they can ponder for a Force instead of playing a delver or top or whatever.

You have backups of both the enabler and the reanimation spell, but your backup enabler (looting) isn't guaranteed to work, while your primary one (entomb) is. I ended up casting the Unmask on t1 to ensure the Entomb resolved.

-----------

Hand 2:

Swamp
Badlands
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Entomb
Reanimate
Unmask

If you wait a turn and draw a black card, you can cast unmask and protect the combo, or you can just say "fuck it, you probably don't have force" and go for it. I'm of the opinion that if you want to be a patient combo player waiting for the right turn to combo off, you're playing the wrong version of reanimator, so I just went for it.

Thoughts on either/both hands?

Hand 1: Unmask pitch Exhume would be my first play of the game. Smart players know that they should force Entomb. After Unmask u can Entomb safely and have a good chance for T2 Reanimation. If you play Entomb before Unmask and he counters it you still can loot for a creature, but if you don't find one you probably loose.

Hand 2: I would go for Turn 1 Reanimation, the deck is all in so u have to play greedy.

[Ricardio]

Due to some mistakes in the classification of this deck of TC, I missed that it was a DTB. Thanks to maraxusofkelds pointing out my missing this, you guys have now been upgraded to DTB for the month. So enjoy killing my Lands deck more for the month, you Horrible horrible people.

Oh and that's the third fastest rise to DTB. Congrats.

What are first and second?

[Quentin Coldman]

What are first and second?

Probably Eldrazi and Miracle.

[Griselpuff]

Eldrazi sure, but Miracles was around a while before people played reasonable lists.

[Claymore]

Jund skyrocketed to DTB when people tried playing it in Legacy during its Modern heyday - DRS, BBE, etc.

Edit: Not sure about Eldrazi, but Jund went straight from New and Development to DTB after 6 pages of its thread's inception.

[Zooligan]

So much for staying off the radar...

[Jeff]

So much for staying off the radar...

My thoughts exactly. Wish this could've waited a month.

EDIT: No criticism of the mods, I understand why. I'm not saying you should've done things differently, I just wish the deck had stayed under the radar a little longer.

[Dice_Box]

What are first and second?
Jund and Eldrazi.


My thoughts exactly. Wish this could've waited a month.
I have a trip planed to Canberra for an eternal event. Sadly that locks me out of having the funds to make this, but I did buy all the non creature cards I was missing. Kind of wish it had of held off too. Blame the deck for being so sweet.

[CptHaddock]

My thoughts exactly. Wish this could've waited a month.

EDIT: No criticism of the mods, I understand why. I'm not saying you should've done things differently, I just wish the deck had stayed under the radar a little longer.

Was this deck really on no one's radar? Seems like for the past couple of months people have been ranting and raving about BR reanimator and it's put up decent results in various tournaments. It's also really cheap (atleast for a legacy deck) and imo has way more playability than something like belcher or oops.

[Atherion]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/532429#online

what do y'all think about this decklist? Especially the SB. 3x blood moon and 3x grave titan.

Is blood moon that much better against grixis than pyrblast? Kinda hard to resolve when it costs that much (and red) and they have access to so much disruption.

Also I'd like to hear your opinions with siding againt miracles: let's assume you have access to 2x needle, 2x pyroblast, 3x collective brutality, how would you side in that situation with an unmask build? And given that you don't have a blistering fast hand, is it better to drag the game out a little or risk a T2 reanimation eg?

[laststepdown]

Jund skyrocketed to DTB when people tried playing it in Legacy during its Modern heyday - DRS, BBE, etc.

Edit: Not sure about Eldrazi, but Jund went straight from New and Development to DTB after 6 pages of its thread's inception.

Not to derail this thread, but Jund as an archetype has been honestly around in legacy & winning tournaments since the printing of tarmogoyf, before modern was ever conceptualized, and before planeswalkers and cascade were even printed. "Jund" wasn't a word in 2007, so we called it RBG Aggro, or as the original creator was pushing for, the name "Gagomy". It's the exact same attrition-based archetype. You can google "Gagomy mtg" or refer to these posts on this forum for any of your research:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6491-Report-GAGOMY-wins-US-Nationals-Legacy-Event

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6778-Deck-GAGOMY-GBR-Zoo

Interesting stuff there, honestly.

Back on track, as for B/R Reanimator: To the person unhappy that the deck is no longer 'under the radar'-I'm assuming you either started playing legacy in just the past few years, are trolling, or are completely delusional-my apologies if you actually are suffering from mental delusion, and I hope it gets better-results are all over the web, on multiple tournament result listings worldwide. It isn't hidden information. I've played magic literally 3 times in the past 3 years on fringe occasions. I do have 20+ years of magic experience though, so playing against this deck for the 'first time'(the B/R variation recently that is, couldn't tell you when I first played vs the mono black or UB variations-just so long ago) after not playing for a year just brought me nostalgia of the old mono-black lists. I can tell you with 100% accuracy this deck hasn't been under anyone's radar in the past few months, much less the past decade. I hope this helps.

[Jeff]

Was this deck really on no one's radar? Seems like for the past couple of months people have been ranting and raving about BR reanimator and it's put up decent results in various tournaments. It's also really cheap (atleast for a legacy deck) and imo has way more playability than something like belcher or oops.


To the person unhappy that the deck is no longer 'under the radar'-I'm assuming you either started playing legacy in just the past few years, are trolling, or are completely delusional-my apologies if you actually are suffering from mental delusion, and I hope it gets better-results are all over the web, on multiple tournament result listings worldwide. It isn't hidden information. I've played magic literally 3 times in the past 3 years on fringe occasions. I do have 20+ years of magic experience though, so playing against this deck for the 'first time'(the B/R variation recently that is, couldn't tell you when I first played vs the mono black or UB variations-just so long ago) after not playing for a year just brought me nostalgia of the old mono-black lists. I can tell you with 100% accuracy this deck hasn't been under anyone's radar in the past few months, much less the past decade. I hope this helps.

Do I think people didn't know about the deck? Absolutely not. Everyone's aware of it. But there are a lot of decks people know about that they decide aren't worth adjusting their sideboard for. To me, when something makes it to the Decks to Beat section on the source, it signifies that it's putting up enough results that you should expect to face it at a 15 round tournament at least once. I don't think it appearing in the decks to beat section means people who weren't aware of it will suddenly become aware of it, but I do think a nonzero number of people will sideboard more for it than they would have otherwise. Maybe I'm wrong, hard to say.


https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/532429#online

what do y'all think about this decklist? Especially the SB. 3x blood moon and 3x grave titan.

Is blood moon that much better against grixis than pyrblast? Kinda hard to resolve when it costs that much (and red) and they have access to so much disruption.

That's my list. I wouldn't read too much into it. I had the following matches

Grixis Reanimator (2-1)
TES (2-0)
Burn (2-1)
Sneak and Show (2-1)
Miracles (2-1)

I never even boarded in the Blood Moons, much less drew them. I've played a 6 leagues over the past week (two 5-0, one 4-1, three 3-2), all with widely variant sideboards as I just try to get experience with different approaches. No idea what the right build is, but I do know you can't learn anything about Blood Moon from the fact that I went 5-0 with that list.

My hope was that Blood Moon would be a good card against both Grixis and Eldrazi. I've yet to play a game against either with it, so it's still possible I'm just dramatically wrong on that one. I'm going to a tournament at my local shop tonight and testing some with friends beforehand, so maybe I'll learn something about Grixis.


Also I'd like to hear your opinions with siding againt miracles: let's assume you have access to 2x needle, 2x pyroblast, 3x collective brutality, how would you side in that situation with an unmask build? And given that you don't have a blistering fast hand, is it better to drag the game out a little or risk a T2 reanimation eg?

Over those same 6 leagues I'm 6-1 against Miracles by siding like this
-1 Elesh Norn
-1 Collective Brutality
-3/4 Animate Dead

+2/3 cards that answer both CBalance and RiP (Wear/Tear or Abrupt Decay, depending on the color)
+2/3 ways around graveyard hate (Stronghold Gambit/Grave Titan/Pack Rat)

I've yet to see a RiP at all, and I've also yet to remove a counterbalance that's resolved and then go on to win the game. I'm consistently winning matches by making them have it on turn 1 or 2, and I'm able to fight through a single Force or Surgical fairly well. When you let the game go longer, even with needle and pyroblast and brutality, they're going to be better at going long than you are. I really think the right thing to do is to not let up off the gas and try to kill them before they have the mana to start sculpting their hand and casting Counterspell+Flusterstorm or whatnot. As such I'm considering not even siding in the decays or w/t unless I see RiP. I'd rather not have them cluttering up my hands that are trying to kill turn 1 or 2 if they're not likely to actually help me win if the game goes long. If I do that I'll have to include Tidespout or Ashen Rider or something in the board plan since Ensnaring Bridge is now a thing out of miracles.

[jroharo]

Do I think people didn't know about the deck? Absolutely not. Everyone's aware of it. But there are a lot of decks people know about that they decide aren't worth adjusting their sideboard for. To me, when something makes it to the Decks to Beat section on the source, it signifies that it's putting up enough results that you should expect to face it at a 15 round tournament at least once. I don't think it appearing in the decks to beat section means people who weren't aware of it will suddenly become aware of it, but I do think a nonzero number of people will sideboard more for it than they would have otherwise. Maybe I'm wrong, hard to say.



That's my list. I wouldn't read too much into it. I had the following matches

Grixis Reanimator (2-1)
TES (2-0)
Burn (2-1)
Sneak and Show (2-1)
Miracles (2-1)

I never even boarded in the Blood Moons, much less drew them. I've played a 6 leagues over the past week (two 5-0, one 4-1, three 3-2), all with widely variant sideboards as I just try to get experience with different approaches. No idea what the right build is, but I do know you can't learn anything about Blood Moon from the fact that I went 5-0 with that list.

My hope was that Blood Moon would be a good card against both Grixis and Eldrazi. I've yet to play a game against either with it, so it's still possible I'm just dramatically wrong on that one. I'm going to a tournament at my local shop tonight and testing some with friends beforehand, so maybe I'll learn something about Grixis.



Over those same 6 leagues I'm 6-1 against Miracles by siding like this
-1 Elesh Norn
-1 Collective Brutality
-3/4 Animate Dead

+2/3 cards that answer both CBalance and RiP (Wear/Tear or Abrupt Decay, depending on the color)
+2/3 ways around graveyard hate (Stronghold Gambit/Grave Titan/Pack Rat)

I've yet to see a RiP at all, and I've also yet to remove a counterbalance that's resolved and then go on to win the game. I'm consistently winning matches by making them have it on turn 1 or 2, and I'm able to fight through a single Force or Surgical fairly well. When you let the game go longer, even with needle and pyroblast and brutality, they're going to be better at going long than you are. I really think the right thing to do is to not let up off the gas and try to kill them before they have the mana to start sculpting their hand and casting Counterspell+Flusterstorm or whatnot. As such I'm considering not even siding in the decays or w/t unless I see RiP. I'd rather not have them cluttering up my hands that are trying to kill turn 1 or 2 if they're not likely to actually help me win if the game goes long. If I do that I'll have to include Tidespout or Ashen Rider or something in the board plan since Ensnaring Bridge is now a thing out of miracles.

Nice work helping pioneer the archetype. I was hoping to find 'jeffderek' on here somewhere.

Per your discussion on Miracles: I also think that going fast is the best way to handle the matchup. I'm not sure it's worth sideboarding many cards against them. Their best answer is Surgical/Priest, which we can answer with discard or Brutality. Plus we have an insane g1 win %, so we just have to steal g2 or g3.

Between the green splash and the white: which do you think is better against which matchups? I have been playing the green splash (3 AD / 3 Rev Silence), though I've been sorely tempted to free up some sideboard slots and switch to white.

Edit: also just to throw in some numbers, I've gone 11-2 over the last week in matches at local Legacy tournaments with RB Reanimator (unmask, green splash), including taking first in the Swiss of a GPT for Louisville (already have my byes so I dropped before t8).

[Jeff]

Between the green splash and the white: which do you think is better against which matchups? I have been playing the green splash (3 AD / 3 Rev Silence), though I've been sorely tempted to free up some sideboard slots and switch to white.

Honestly? I have literally no idea. I'm not winning games where I'm destroying permanents that stop me and then going off. I'm winning games by preventing my opponent from ever playing magic in the first place. I have won a few longer games, but they feel more like flukes than experiences to build off of.

We don't have Brainstorm and Ponder to help us assemble the right answers. By the time we find one of our 3-of answers for a specific hate permanent, the game could well be out of hand. Given that I'm seriously considering not boarding anti-permanent cards against anything except Leyline of the void.

All that said, I'm going to do some actual testing over the next few weeks in addition to jamming leagues online, so we'll see what happens. What I'd like is a good plan that involves just casting individual threats that I can board in, whether it's things like Blood Moon that turn entire decks off or things like Pack Rat/Grave Titan/Obliterator, etc, but so far I haven't found any of those plans to be particularly good. Maybe Stronghold Gambit is good enough, maybe playing Show and Tell is the answer, maybe just kill them on turn 1 after they didn't mulligan to Leyline.

[RhoxWarMonk]

This is what I've been testing - sideboard changes almost weekly, just can't seem to get something I like... :/

Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Sire of Insanity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant

Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal
3 Animate Dead
2 Thoughtseize

Lands
4 Badlands
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp

I hated the lone Mountain in the deck a lot of people run - it feels so bad to have a great hand, and all you need is a black source but instead, you get to stare at a.... mountain.... :mad:

Really wish I could play with 4x SSG / 4x Unmask / 4x Thoughtseize. I currently am running the sneak attack plan in the SB (though thinking of going the Wear/Tear route instead), so I feel you kinda need the extra gas in SSG's if you're running Sneaks IMO. I guess this is where the lone mountain comes in :tongue: I think I'll go with Wear/Tear and a scrubland in that slot, to take care of Bridges and Leylines. Unfortunately, a lot of people are now playing Surgical Extraction, which isn't solved by the white splash at all. Tough card to play around as well.

[jroharo]

Honestly? I have literally no idea. I'm not winning games where I'm destroying permanents that stop me and then going off. I'm winning games by preventing my opponent from ever playing magic in the first place. I have won a few longer games, but they feel more like flukes than experiences to build off of.

This has been my experience as well, which is why I am leaning more and more toward the white splash (though to be honest i have not tested it yet), since it takes up fewer sideboard slots.

[Zooligan]

Back on track, as for B/R Reanimator: To the person unhappy that the deck is no longer 'under the radar'-I'm assuming you either started playing legacy in just the past few years, are trolling, or are completely delusional-my apologies if you actually are suffering from mental delusion, and I hope it gets better-results are all over the web, on multiple tournament result listings worldwide. It isn't hidden information. I've played magic literally 3 times in the past 3 years on fringe occasions. I do have 20+ years of magic experience though, so playing against this deck for the 'first time'(the B/R variation recently that is, couldn't tell you when I first played vs the mono black or UB variations-just so long ago) after not playing for a year just brought me nostalgia of the old mono-black lists. I can tell you with 100% accuracy this deck hasn't been under anyone's radar in the past few months, much less the past decade. I hope this helps.

I'm fairly certain I'm not completely delusional all of the time... :P

BR Reanimator certainly wasn't an unknown deck. it's been in budget Legacy lists for a while. But there is a difference between known and in The Source's Decks to Beat section. Heck, there's plenty of stuff not in Decks to Beat that are way more known and "mainstream" than this deck. Limelight is going to put a target on it. But that's ok, as it's an adaptable archetype.

[Zooligan]

Unfortunately, a lot of people are now playing Surgical Extraction, which isn't solved by the white splash at all. Tough card to play around as well.

You can have a chance to Faerie Macabre the G-dog in your graveyard and prevent them from extracting them all, if you have them in your board.

[TokenMaster]

If you have the mana for it, you can also respond to things like Faerie Macabre and DRS with Entomb if you're casting Exhume.

[Luklinda]

I hated the lone Mountain in the deck a lot of people run - it feels so bad to have a great hand, and all you need is a black source but instead, you get to stare at a.... mountain.... :mad:

Really wish I could play with 4x SSG / 4x Unmask / 4x Thoughtseize. I currently am running the sneak attack plan in the SB (though thinking of going the Wear/Tear route instead), so I feel you kinda need the extra gas in SSG's if you're running Sneaks IMO. I guess this is where the lone mountain comes in :tongue: I think I'll go with Wear/Tear and a scrubland in that slot, to take care of Bridges and Leylines. Unfortunately, a lot of people are now playing Surgical Extraction, which isn't solved by the white splash at all. Tough card to play around as well.

Cutting the mountain is perfectly fine if you're running 4x LP + 4x SSG. You leave yourself a bit vulnerable to wastelands w/out it - though that is negligible. The driving factor should be your SB. If you run red cards that you'd like to cast or are using as anti-hate cards - then you should absolutely run the basic mountain. If you're running sneak - I'd be more inclined to keep it in the 60.

My $0.02

[MiraclesWizard]

hate to break it to you guys, but this was on the radar long before the MODs shed light on it here.

[Zooligan]

hate to break it to you guys, but this was on the radar long before the MODs shed light on it here.

Guess it depends upon your def of 'on the radar'. DtB is the spotlight, three months ago it was flying low, three months before that it was a fringe budget deck.

[Jeff]

Yeah, I played at my local shop last night, which is always 90+% real decks by good players, and the vast majority of the room was like "Oh man, is that the RB reanimator deck? I heard about it but I haven't seen it yet, is it fun?"

[jroharo]

Yeah, I played at my local shop last night, which is always 90+% real decks by good players, and the vast majority of the room was like "Oh man, is that the RB reanimator deck? I heard about it but I haven't seen it yet, is it fun?"

Tell them "No, it's not fun, and it's a terrible deck. Don't play it at GP Louisville." hahaha

[ironclad8690]

It's not like gy decks have not on people's radars for the entire history of legacy lol. The beauty of this deck is that you can beat the hate or race it.

[Jeff]

It's not like gy decks have not on people's radars for the entire history of legacy lol. The beauty of this deck is that you can beat the hate or race it.

This will be my last comment on whether the deck is on the radar or not, because this is a dumb discussion, but for some reason I can't help myself but commenting one more time.

Yes, people will have graveyard hate regardless. But Miracles players are switching from RIP to Surgical just because of this deck, since they have to race. Eldrazi decks are playing Leyline instead of Crypt or something similar. People are modifying their graveyard hate because the right graveyard hate to beat this deck is not necessarily the same hate you want to beat Dredge. I'm seeing a lot more Faerie Macabres just to beat Chancellor.

[jimirynk]

Dtb?

[Whitefaces]

Dtb?

Deck to beat.

[jroharo]

This will be my last comment on whether the deck is on the radar or not, because this is a dumb discussion, but for some reason I can't help myself but commenting one more time.

Yes, people will have graveyard hate regardless. But Miracles players are switching from RIP to Surgical just because of this deck, since they have to race. Eldrazi decks are playing Leyline instead of Crypt or something similar. People are modifying their graveyard hate because the right graveyard hate to beat this deck is not necessarily the same hate you want to beat Dredge. I'm seeing a lot more Faerie Macabres just to beat Chancellor.

100% agreed. That's my only concern going into Louisville is that the meta will have already adapted and switched to Surgical/Faerie.

[TokenMaster]

Perhaps board in Inkwell against miracles then? Other targets besides griselbrand seem subpar.

[Jeff]

Perhaps board in Inkwell against miracles then? Other targets besides griselbrand seem subpar.

Inkwell beats StP & Jace, but loses to Terminus. Iona on White beats StP and Terminus, but loses to Jace. So far I'm leaning towards Iona in that role because she's better in other matchups than Inkwell, but I see the attraction.

[Venomous72]

Inkwell beats StP & Jace, but loses to Terminus. Iona on White beats StP and Terminus, but loses to Jace. So far I'm leaning towards Iona in that role because she's better in other matchups than Inkwell, but I see the attraction.

If any lists splash blue (which I have done for Show and Tell and Echoing Truth) instead of Green, Aetherling is pretty much game over for Miracles.

That aside, I would almost always go for Griselbrand first and then draw as much as possible. You might get a smack or two in before they Swords, but you can easily draw into a Sire and get that out on the same turn, or an Archetype which helps a lot. I like Archetype because it gives Iona/Griselbrand protection from Karakas (which Miracles will bring in).

[Jeff]

If any lists splash blue (which I have done for Show and Tell and Echoing Truth) instead of Green, Aetherling is pretty much game over for Miracles.

I assume you're splashing two blue sources at this point? If you're using Show and Tell to get Aetherling into play, that's one, so you still lose to double removal spell the first turn after it even if you already have a 2nd blue source in play for the first one? Obviously they're not wasting you, but I haven't found letting the game go long enough that I'd have extra blue mana to hold open after I reanimated would result my in my reanimation spell resolving.


That aside, I would almost always go for Griselbrand first and then draw as much as possible. You might get a smack or two in before they Swords, but you can easily draw into a Sire and get that out on the same turn, or an Archetype which helps a lot. I like Archetype because it gives Iona/Griselbrand protection from Karakas (which Miracles will bring in).

Yeah I definitely get Griselbrand first, but you have to get something to protect him, and neither Archetype nor Iona protects you from everything they're likely to play. Plus Sire isn't at his best because they may have top.

[Venomous72]

I assume you're splashing two blue sources at this point? If you're using Show and Tell to get Aetherling into play, that's one, so you still lose to double removal spell the first turn after it even if you already have a 2nd blue source in play for the first one? Obviously they're not wasting you, but I haven't found letting the game go long enough that I'd have extra blue mana to hold open after I reanimated would result my in my reanimation spell resolving.



Yeah I definitely get Griselbrand first, but you have to get something to protect him, and neither Archetype nor Iona protects you from everything they're likely to play. Plus Sire isn't at his best because they may have top.

Yeah when I am playing with the blue splash I go with two underground seas. I will still try and go with the Reanimate plan over Show and Tell still but I would take out an animate dead or two to bring them in, since I don't want want to be stone dead to Rest in Peace. I run the Unmask version when I am playing with Br so I will try and clear the way to at least untap (or have a Lotus Petal out) after Aetherling hits. That said, once he is out there it is extremely hard for Miracles to get rid of him. If you have two blue sources out you are usually good to go, as you can use other lands or petals to pump him.

Honestly I think Br can get under Miracles hate cards and CounterTop lock most of the time since it is, on average, about a turn faster than Ub. Chancellor is just (obviously) very important here.

[Jeff]

Honestly I think Br can get under Miracles hate cards and CounterTop lock most of the time since it is, on average, about a turn faster than Ub. Chancellor is just (obviously) very important here.


This is the biggest reason I haven't played AEtherling yet: I don't feel like I need him. That sideboard slot has to be more useful for something else.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Yes, people will have graveyard hate regardless. But Miracles players are switching from RIP to Surgical just because of this deck, since they have to race. Eldrazi decks are playing Leyline instead of Crypt or something similar. People are modifying their graveyard hate because the right graveyard hate to beat this deck is not necessarily the same hate you want to beat Dredge. I'm seeing a lot more Faerie Macabres just to beat Chancellor.

Yep this is my experience too, now Miracles are switching to Fairies/Surgical because they know they aren't fast enough to land a RiP. This is why I'm going with the Stronghold Gambit + Discard / Sneak Attack plan after sideboarding.

LotV is still played by what feels like 99.9% of Eldrazi players but that was always the worst one anyways, since Abrupt Decay doesn't hit it (also why I want to try the wear and tear plan). Regardless, the new GY hate makes the splashing irrelevant, since they just wait for me to "go off" and then pulls my creature out from under me, even turn 1. I don't even try without a discard spell games 2 or 3 unless I had Channcelor trigger from turn 0. That's why I've been boarding into heavy discard and Sneak Attacks to try and go over top.

Anyone else finding the same thing in their playtesting?

[maraxusofkelds]

Sorry not sorry for getting this put into DTB

Anyway, we should try setting up a sideboard guide for this deck. As in when we should be removing unmasks, reanimate deads, or etc vs various decks. Is there any circumstances we should ever be boarding out our fast mana such as SSG, petals, and dark rituals? I pretty much only take out rituals vs chalice decks. How many reanimation spells do you take out in games 2 and 3 when you expect graveyard hate?

On an additional note, Ive been running double sires, grave titan, and 3 grisel in my main deck over the single sire and 4 grisel in main. Grave titan feels like a better choice in a meta where people are running more surgicals instead of the 4th griselbrand.

[gRR!!]

Some thoughts about the decklist and where it seems to be right now IMO:

This last Saturday we have played the final, invitational tournament of the Catalan Legacy League (Top 8 decks can be found here (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21703)) here in Barcelona. There were 36 players classified but only 30 showed up. Seven of us played different versions of B/R Reanimator (a 23% of the field!), and none of us achieved Top 8. None of 7. This might be just variance (I myself dropped at 0-2, after losing versus ANT and Burn in a very unlucky match), but I feel that the metagame has adapted and they are expecting us. Because of this, I'll drop the deck and be back to Omni-Tell for the next months. Anyway I feel that siding some kind of plan B is more necessary than ever, be it Show and Tell, Sneak attack, Stronghold Gambit or hardcastable creatures. We can't realistically expect to past through the GY hate the meta brought against us right now.

My two cents

[DNSolver]

This deck's still great.

I was a guest on Erin Campbell's stream on Thursday night, and I might be returning in the future. Here's a link to the VOD:

https://www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus/v/109271504

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

This deck's still great.

I was a guest on Erin Campbell's stream on Thursday night, and I might be returning in the future. Here's a link to the VOD:

https://www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus/v/109271504

Nice work! I notice you're off Sire of Insanity and Chancellor of the Annex in that version, how has that been working out?

[Firö]

Nice work! I notice you're off Sire of Insanity and Chancellor of the Annex in that version, how has that been working out?

Is there anyway we can get the decklist from the video? I don't have a ton of time to watch through the video although I probably should :p

[DNSolver]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/unmask-griselbrand/

This is approximately the list played on that twitch stream.

[Zooligan]

I did watch the stream. It was good, but I don't think you saw FoW even once in 5 league matches. Even when looking at opponents hands I don't recall a single Force being revealed. I'm pretty sure I've never had that happen.

I wonder if Chancellor would have been missed more had FoW been more prevalent in the matches you played.

[TokenMaster]

Played the deck at locals yesterday and didn't do so hot, lots of players came ready because everyone was talking about the deck. I won game 1 every single time but game 2 players would usually board in surgical or graffdigger's and mull until they see either it or a turn 1 chalice. My question is how aggressively should I mull if I'm missing one combo piece I need to turn 1 them, and does having Chancellor in my opening hand change that?

[HansoRaptor]

You have to mull very aggressively. You might win games by not mulling, but you won't win tournaments without playing aggressive. With this deck you can easily mull to 4, 5 and still reanimate something on turn 1.
I don't really see a problem in cage or chalice, as much as I see one in Leyline. If you got Ingot Chewer or Wear//Tear it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Do you play the Simian Spirit Guide or Unmask list? What does your Sideboard look like?

[Zooligan]

Played the deck at locals yesterday and didn't do so hot, lots of players came ready because everyone was talking about the deck. I won game 1 every single time but game 2 players would usually board in surgical or graffdigger's and mull until they see either it or a turn 1 chalice. My question is how aggressively should I mull if I'm missing one combo piece I need to turn 1 them, and does having Chancellor in my opening hand change that?

See, THAT'S what I was talking about when I said "So much for staying off the radar..."

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Played the deck at locals yesterday and didn't do so hot, lots of players came ready because everyone was talking about the deck. I won game 1 every single time but game 2 players would usually board in surgical or graffdigger's and mull until they see either it or a turn 1 chalice. My question is how aggressively should I mull if I'm missing one combo piece I need to turn 1 them, and does having Chancellor in my opening hand change that?

This tracks with my experiences as well, and I think a big weakness of the deck is that it doesn't mulligan well because you need so many cards to combo out fast around hate. How you respond depends on what kind of hate you expect to see turn 1 (or even turn 0). Remember that they know you have a Chancellor and can play around it:

Chancellor protects against: T1 Grafdigger's Cage, T1 Relic of Progenitus, T1 Deathrite Shaman, counters IF your opponent has already tapped out, T2 Chalice of the Void (even if they stick this, you can play around it with Collective Brutality/Exhume).
Chancellor doesn't protect against: Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction, Leyline of the Void

Surgical Extraction is by far the most problematic, as it's non-permanent based and easy to play around a Chancellor. If you see a lot of artifact-based hate, Ingot Chewer may be the best solution, as both Wear//Tear and Abrupt Decay cost one more mana.

(Alternately, there's the "so crazy it just might work" approach of Ground Seal/Exhume)

[Jeff]

I think a big weakness of the deck is that it doesn't mulligan well because you need so many cards to combo out fast around hate.

I'll caveat all of this by saying I only have around 50 league matches with this deck, and 4 in person matches, but I'm well above 50% Match Win over the small sample size.

This is true to some extent, but I will say that I have kept a surprising number of mulls to 5 with protection and a turn 1 combo.

Swamp | Dark Ritual | Entomb | Thoughtseize | Reanimate
Fetch | Chancellor | Faithless Looting | Reanimate | Lotus Petal

I have found that by mulliganing aggressively, I get rewarded with a hand that can win more often than I get shafted and have to keep 3 lands and a dark ritual. If you're going to play this deck, I think you have to embrace the aggressive mulliganing, and take the games where you get blown out in line with the games where you have a stupidly good hand on a mull to 5. If that doesn't sound like your cup of tea, I think there's a Reanimator build with Brainstorm that might be more up your alley.

[tarmogoat]

I've been thinkning of the white splash. Some options that came to mind:

SB: Resilience
1x Engeneered Explosives
2x Collective Brutallity
4x Wear // Tear
4x Sneak Attack
2x Massacre
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

SB: Transform A
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
3x Wear // Tear
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Swords to Plowshares

SB: Transform B (requires Cabal Therapy in the MB)
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Dark Confidant
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Monastery Mentor

[xix]

I've been thinkning of the white splash. Some options that came to mind:

SB: Transform B (requires Cabal Therapy in the MB)
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Dark Confidant
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Monastery Mentor


I could see this if you were on the thoughtseize/unmask list, I was debating doing this instead (cabal therapy), requires a bit more knowledge to play right, but it is more powerful than thoughtseize. I am also a fan of the white sideboard as it is cheaper than sneak attack plan.

I think I would transform a bit different though, 4x pyromancer, 4x sword to plow, and the rest of your board can still reanimates/wear//tears etc, Mentors seem better if your just switching to the beat down path. Both feel like your just abandoning the decks main plan and becoming a worse other deck, so I don't know if either is good, but defiantly fun/maybe catches people off guard. and you can do something like sideboard/unsideboard for game 3

P.S you could just have done rabblemaster here and removed a white requirement..

As far as green sideboard, I saw someone else playing with Krosan Grip, think I might like that better than the other options and I am going to test. It is not as narrow as some of the other options, and unlike Wear//Tear protects itself, a counterspell on your wear//tear when your locked keeps you out of the game #feelsbad.

[HansoRaptor]

I've been thinkning of the white splash. Some options that came to mind:

SB: Resilience
1x Engeneered Explosives
2x Collective Brutallity
4x Wear // Tear
4x Sneak Attack
2x Massacre
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

I don't know why everyone wants to board in Sneak Attack. The card feels super slow and super mediocre. If you board in a playset of Wear//Tear you should be able to deal with most of the hate. I would replace the Sneak Attacks with Stronghold Gambit. That card is winning some matchups single-handedly. Other than that I really like this sideboard package. Personally, I would play Pithing Needle over Massacre but that's really just my personal preference.



As far as green sideboard, I saw someone else playing with Krosan Grip, think I might like that better than the other options and I am going to test. It is not as narrow as some of the other options, and unlike Wear//Tear protects itself, a counterspell on your wear//tear when your locked keeps you out of the game #feelsbad.
The thing is, with Wear//Tear you can T1 destroy the enemy Leyline, while with Krosan Grip you have to get two more mana which I think is not acceptable given the fact that you want to go off as soon as possible.

[tarmogoat]

I don't know why everyone wants to board in Sneak Attack. The card feels super slow and super mediocre. If you board in a playset of Wear//Tear you should be able to deal with most of the hate. I would replace the Sneak Attacks with Stronghold Gambit. That card is winning some matchups single-handedly. Other than that I really like this sideboard package. Personally, I would play Pithing Needle over Massacre but that's really just my personal preference.
I like Massacre better as DnT can prove more than just difficult G2/3 and it's also hard castable with Dark Ritual. The same is true for Sneak Attack, I play Petals, Monkeys and Dark Rituals, how is it slow? You can't Gambit against DnT, Delver, Elves, Merfolk, Eldrazi, MUD, Shardless, the list goes on. Gambit requires discard as backup to be effective, whereas Sneak Attack can be played and then be ridden to victory, even if you have to wait a couple turns to get full value of it. Have you actually played Sneak Attack in this deck? The card has a huge impact, especially if you land a Griselbrand EoT and get to untap with red sources and live draws off him.

[Jeff]

I don't know why everyone wants to board in Sneak Attack. The card feels super slow and super mediocre. It's especially bad in a deck where you only have 4 targets worth Sneaking


The thing is, with Wear//Tear you can T1 destroy the enemy Leyline, while with Krosan Grip you have to get two more mana which I think is not acceptable given the fact that you want to go off as soon as possible.

Grip is also basically never destroying a thorn of amethyst

[DNSolver]

About to go live on Erin Campbell's stream!

www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus

[bcoutlander]

It's especially bad in a deck where you only have 4 targets worth Sneaking
......

And this is why I run 1 Ashen Rider in my main and 1-2 more in the sideboard


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jeff]

And this is why I run 1 Ashen Rider in my main and 1-2 more in the sideboard


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OK, so now you have 7 targets. You draw one of the ashen riders, you sneak attack it, you exile two of their permanents, they're at 15 life and you have no cards in hand. No brainstorms, ponders, preordains, etc to help you find more. So you draw go for a while. You draw another ashen rider, sneak it, exile two more permanents, take them to 10? Wheee?

You have to draw the Griselbrand to win.

[RhoxWarMonk]

About to go live on Erin Campbell's stream!

www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus

Great job, really enjoyed it. Helped me learn how to play the deck better as well and when to mulligan.

I still think Sire is better than Jin tho :tongue: but to each their own.

[qomori]

About to go live on Erin Campbell's stream!

www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus

Great stuff, Solver! Also, the end of match 3 was hilarious :laugh:

[xix]

It's especially bad in a deck where you only have 4 targets worth Sneaking



Grip is also basically never destroying a thorn of amethyst

Gambit requires you to not be vs a person with creatures or forces you to have the discard to strip all creatures first before using gambit, Sneak attack requires your fast mana/ maybe a turn/2 of speed. I normally run sneak attack, as gambit is just useless in my meta, Maybe if I was back on the 4 unmask/4 Ts instead of 4 unmask/4 SSG

As far as thorn, it has never been a issue to work around thorn, the Grip was a alternative to abrupt decay to reduce sideboard slots (wasn't in my deck) im testing it tonight at the shop we will see how it plays.

[TheStalk]

Just posted this to mtgLegacy on Reddit, but thought it was worth putting here as well to generate some discussion. Copy/paste follows:

Hello all! I've been testing BR Reanimator online for a bit while I build it in paper, and have been at a bit of a loss on how to build my sideboard. There are lots of different options, very little consensus, and I only have so much time to test, so testing each configuration against a gauntlet isn't feasible. Instead, I've created an excel file listing all the hate card/problem cards for the deck that I could find being played in top 15 or so Legacy decks, along with cards or play patterns to beat them.

I don't think this is revolutionary information by any means; given enough time most pilots could come to these same conclusions, but I thought having it all in one place could be a great help. With all the problem cards and their countermeasures listed against each other, it becomes easier to identify which cards have more cross application, which ones don't really pull their weight, etc.

To make a long story short, I'd love to generate some discussion on other people's interpretation of this table. I'll leave out my own conclusions for now to avoid starting up the thread with a bias. Given all this information, what stands out to you as the best cards to have in your sideboard, the best anti-hate, the optimal splash color (or lack thereof)?

A quick note on reading the document: Turn # means on which turn this card can interact with Reanimator. For example, Leyline of the Void and Force of Will can interact on turn 0 (i.e. before opponent takes his first turn), Grafdigger's Cage interacts on turn 1, and Deathrite Shaman on turn 2 (it comes down on turn 1 but can't prevent Reanimator from doing its thing until the next turn)

Avg Qty is the number of copies typically played in decks featuring the card in question. I'm not considering for example that non-blue decks don't play Force of Will. Decks playing Force of Will usually pack 4 copies, so the number shown is 4.

For each hate card, I've ordered (top to bottom) the countermeasures in the order I feel they are best at fighting that particular card. This is of course my opinion and is debatable, and in some cases the order is interchangeable (i.e. Wear//Tear and Abrupt Decay are equally good vs. Grafdigger's Cage), but it made the most sense to me to list the best solutions first and go down from there.

So that's it, hope you guys find this helpful and that it sparks discussion which will help cement a "best" build of BR Reanimator in the future.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U2-9YMu-pMMW82tTI_jH1NN7aMVpd_OZsrD0X9TRCqE/edit#gid=1657167404

TL:DR - I made a table with all the problem cards BR Reanimator has to fight through and the means to beat them. The goal is to determine which cards are and aren't good enough to be in the deck going forward. Discuss and enjoy!

[DNSolver]

In many of the cards that you discussed (Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog) you are missing key interactions/plays with Exhume + Entomb that are discussed on the primer - see the OP.

In other notes, testing has eliminated the following cards for sideboard slot contention against Grixis Delver:

Bitterblossom
Grim Lavamancer
Blood Moon (kind of, could still be playable?)

This leaves Pack Rat and Phyrexian Obliterator on the table right now.

[RhoxWarMonk]

In many of the cards that you discussed (Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog) you are missing key interactions/plays with Exhume + Entomb that are discussed on the primer - see the OP.


I didn't see what this was referencing? :confused: Which key interactions are you referring to? I even searched for "Crypt", "Bog" and "Exhume" and didn't find the relevant piece.



In other notes, testing has eliminated the following cards for sideboard slot contention against Grixis Delver:

Bitterblossom
Grim Lavamancer
Blood Moon (kind of, could still be playable?)

This leaves Pack Rat and Phyrexian Obliterator on the table right now.

Pack Rat is pretty interesting, have you had any success with this?

[DNSolver]

Hmmm. That awkward moment when the primer doesn't have the stuff you expect it does.

If opponent plays a one-shot grave hate card such as Nihil Spellbomb, Relic, Tormod's Crypt, Bog, etc. :

1) Put a creature in the graveyard (ideally good enough but NOT the "optimal" card)
2) Cast Exhume. Opponent will use their card if they are scared of your creature.
3) Cast Entomb with the Exhume still on the stack and put the optimal creature in your graveyard.
4) Let Exhume resolve.
5) Profit!

Adding the above section to the primer. I apologize that this information was not readily available already.

I've had some testing done with Pack Rat but in the wrong matchups. I haven't played Pack Rat vs Grixis Delver yet.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Hmmm. That awkward moment when the primer doesn't have the stuff you expect it does.

If opponent plays a one-shot grave hate card such as Nihil Spellbomb, Relic, Tormod's Crypt, Bog, etc. :

1) Put a creature in the graveyard (ideally good enough but NOT the "optimal" card)
2) Cast Exhume. Opponent will use their card if they are scared of your creature.
3) Cast Entomb with the Exhume still on the stack and put the optimal creature in your graveyard.
4) Let Exhume resolve.
5) Profit!

Adding the above section to the primer. I apologize that this information was not readily available already.

I've had some testing done with Pack Rat but in the wrong matchups. I haven't played Pack Rat vs Grixis Delver yet.

This is worded a little wonky. You need to allow for the Relic or Crypt to resolve, so that the Entomb target doesn't get swept away by the Crypt.

So, it would be as follows:
1) Have creature in GY
2) Cast Exhume
3) Opponent pops Relic, allow this to resolve removing your GY
4) Cast Entomb with Exhume still on the stack
5) Exhume resolves
6) Win game

My appologies if it was obvious to everyone else, but I kept reading this as "cast Entomb in response to the Relic", which would just put another target in your GY for the Relic/Crypt to eat.

Otherwise, this is a great suggestion! I honestly never really thought of using Entomb in such a way with Exhume already on the stack and a hate card that eats your entire GY already into play.

EDIT: As another note, if your going to Entomb a creature with Exhume already on the stack, make sure you do so BEFORE you pass priority to your opponent. If you pass priority and your opponent doesn't react to it, you lose your chance to cast Entomb as Exhume will simply resolve after both players pass priority with it on the stack. Hope that makes sense.

[Jeff]

In other notes, testing has eliminated the following cards for sideboard slot contention against Grixis Delver:

Bitterblossom
Grim Lavamancer
Blood Moon (kind of, could still be playable?)

This leaves Pack Rat and Phyrexian Obliterator on the table right now.

I tested Obliterator quite a bit last night against 4C delver, but it was bug delver splashing red instead of grixis splashing green, so he had goyfs and much more ready access to green mana for deathrite instead of pyromancers. Obliterator was incredibly underwhelming. I actually traded my obliterator for a goyf and all of his other permanents at one point and he still won. Between Animate Dead and Lotus Petal, it's hard to keep goyf off of 5/6, which really hurt the obliterator plan.

On the other hand, I really liked Blood Moon there. One blood moon that resolves can turn off all future deathrites, and while you can still lose after that happens, I found that in games where I drew my sideboard option, the blood moon had the biggest impact on the game.

I also tested 3 decays and 2 brutalities, as well as a few lilianas of the veil. Liliana was neat, but ultimately just didn't do enough to justify the 3CMC price tag. At the moment I'm toying around with a version that sides in 3 blood moon and 2 simian spirit guides to try to push them out a little faster. That matchup ends up being about mana a lot of the time, so having the ability to pay for daze or pierce with monkey could be good. Still testing, not sure.

I tested Pack Rat several times and was never in love with him. Against grixis in particularly they're usually leaving in a few bolts, and I've had my pack rat bolted which sucks. For the most part it just takes too much mana. I had a lot of opportunities to play an early pack rat but no guarantee that I'd have 3 mana every turn for the rest of the game.

[TheStalk]

Hmmm. That awkward moment when the primer doesn't have the stuff you expect it does.

If opponent plays a one-shot grave hate card such as Nihil Spellbomb, Relic, Tormod's Crypt, Bog, etc. :

1) Put a creature in the graveyard (ideally good enough but NOT the "optimal" card)
2) Cast Exhume. Opponent will use their card if they are scared of your creature.
3) Cast Entomb with the Exhume still on the stack and put the optimal creature in your graveyard.
4) Let Exhume resolve.
5) Profit!

Adding the above section to the primer. I apologize that this information was not readily available already.

I've had some testing done with Pack Rat but in the wrong matchups. I haven't played Pack Rat vs Grixis Delver yet.

Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't thought of it, I'll add it in. It definitely seems like the "best" response to that type of hate, but needing the exact right circumstances (fatty in gy, entomb+exhume in hand) makes it seem like it unfortunately might not come up that often.

I've seen the Pack Rat idea floating around this thread, but did not add it because I haven't seen any results posted yet (although it's entirely possible I missed a post). I'll definitely add it if it turns out to be good. Based purely on theorycrafting though, I don't think it'll be that great. If you manage to get the ball rolling I'm sure it'll be excellent, but 3 mana to activate is a lot, so I'm unsure this get out of control as often as we'd like it to.

Obliterator is something I've considered although I haven't actually tried it yet. My main concerns are a) Dismember (although this is often just a 1-of, so probably not a deal breaker) and more importantly b) resolving a 4 mana spell vs Daze/Force of Will. If it lands though, it probably wins the game on its own more often than not, so it seems like it has a lot of potential.