[Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

[splorf]

SB:
4 Burning Wish
1 Show and Tell
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Buried Alive
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Reverent Silence / Fragmentize
1 Meltdown / Shattering Spree
1 Buried Alive
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Brutality

SB plan:
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Reanimate (to fetch with Wish if necessary)
-1 Exhume (to fetch with Wish if necessary)
-1 Unmask
+4 Burning Wish

You've got two Buried Alive in your SB. What's the reason to play it anyway? You need to deal with Leyline / GY hate G2 and G3 first. Valid point regarding Meltdown etc. to deal with Chalice.

I'd put an Ashen Rider somewhere into the list, if you want to splash blue for SnT.

[DNSolver]

I prefer Tidespout Tyrant to Ashen Rider.

Fixed list:

4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex (alt. 1 Archetype of Endurance, 1 Children of Korlis
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
8 black fetches
1 splash land
1 Chrome Mox

SB:
4 Burning Wish
1 Show and Tell
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Buried Alive
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Reverent Silence / Fragmentize
1 Meltdown / Shattering Spree
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Brutality
1 Underground Sea / Volcanic Island (for Show and Tell)

SB plan:
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Reanimate (to fetch with Wish if necessary)
-1 Exhume (to fetch with Wish if necessary)
-1 Unmask
+4 Burning Wish

[xix]

I'd choose Fragmentize over Revoke Existence, if splashing white. Exile is nice, but is it worth one more mana?
Tendrils would be sweet, but I assume it's too hard to get it online postboard, since we somehow rely on Griseldaddy to go off with it anyway? I mean, if we manage to get him onto the board, the problem is already solved, isn't it? :)
Another card I'm thinking of is Gamble as a singleton. Probably too cute, but maybe It's good in some fringe situations in grindier postboard match ups.

Since I'm splashing white starting point could be sth. like this:

4 Burning Wish
3 Stronghold Gambit (Two for MB, one to fetch with Wish)
2 Fragmentize (One for MB, one to fetch)
1 Unmask / Despise / Harsh Scrutiny / Cabal Therapy
1 Vindicate
1 Pyroclasm / another sweeper
2 Fatty flex spots
1 Plateau

Why run fragmentize at all, just run wear // tear, if they chalice its on 1, wear//tear hits everything we want.

[Hopo]

Why run fragmentize at all, just run wear // tear, if they chalice its on 1, wear//tear hits everything we want.

It quite clearly says in the post that it's a Burning Wish target.

[Kobra_D]

Why would you sideboard in burning wishes? Don't you play wishes main board and have access to your toolbox in all 3 games?

If someone really wants speed you can save the toolbox for the sb games. This deck isn't about incremental value it's about winning quickly. That being said, I wouldn't always keep all burning wishes in all 3 games.

Especially in the miracles match up I definitely cut wishes so that they aren't easily countered and my sb card is left un-accessible.

[DNSolver]

Not surprised to see this thread bumped back down to the Established category. We've convinced the entire format that Rest in Peace is too slow and warped the metagame dramatically, while tripling our money on Surgical Extractions (if anyone did this, congrats :D ). Animate Dead bug on MTGO probably not helping our cause :(

Keep spreading the gospel of Griselbrand.

[l33twash0r]

Well still missing few pieces so maybe I just hope people forget this deck is a thing soon enough :tongue:

[TokenMaster]

Has anyone on the white splash tried Monastery Mentor post-board? It seems to answer a lot of our problems game 2, especially in situations where opponents mulligan aggressively for a turn 1 answer and usually don't end up with a strong enough start to out Mentor on time. It also punishes players for using Surgical Extraction instead of Leyline and RiP(especially if they're paying 2 life to cast it) because even if they out Mentor, it gives our reanimation spells an extra target, often with the ability to trigger prowess once or twice immediately.

[Kobra_D]

Has anyone on the white splash tried Monastery Mentor post-board? It seems to answer a lot of our problems game 2, especially in situations where opponents mulligan aggressively for a turn 1 answer and usually don't end up with a strong enough start to out Mentor on time. It also punishes players for using Surgical Extraction instead of Leyline and RiP(especially if they're paying 2 life to cast it) because even if they out Mentor, it gives our reanimation spells an extra target, often with the ability to trigger prowess once or twice immediately.

Personally, I love the sneak attack alternative. It keeps the deck to 2 colors, dodges all hate except for containment priest, but with all the hate I have for DnT, I'm not that worried post board (massacre, pyroclasm, dread of night, fast Elesh Norn, and now fatal push).

It let's me keep all my fatties in and board in more you have them in the SB. We're still dead to spot removal, but that was always the case and I accept this about myself.

That being said, when going for a splash I do like the white splash over the green one. Abrupt decay is awesome, sure, but white allows for mentor, StP, PtE, wear//tear, serenity (although not a favorite of mine). We lose decay, but if we are really going down on reanimation then it doesn't matter so much, decay only hits the creatures they have and push does that. StP, and PtE helps put you in a comfortable place with Eldrazi, plus we still have some access to our fatties. Boarding out some reanimation still means that we can cheat Elesh into play which is awesome with mentor. It does open ourselves up more to terminus, but miracles is hard, no matter what we do.

Some people like Stoneforge packages on white, but I think mentor and some white utility is all that is needed, stoneforges always clog up my hands I find.

Another thing that the white splash helps with is if you run a chrome mox list. As mox/chancellor no longer produces colorless.

So, while it may depend on your preference, and meta, I think mentor as a post board option is great. It changes the dynamics significantly and still closes out quickly. I've tried boarding in top with mentor as well but have yet to have a game where I liked it (*Kanye Shrug*).

TL;DR
I like Sneak Attack but mentor is great. Elesh Norn+Mentor is silly.

[splorf]

I don't see any reason to play Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile in this deck. Not to mention Stoneforge Mystic. Never saw a list playing it. The reason why I prefer the white splash over green is because of the slimmer sideboard package, but it's somewhat weaker against Miracles. If my local meta would be heavy Miracles, I'd splash G.

Concerning Mentor: In theory it could be good to leech some value out of your dead cards until you are able to deal with the hate. Some data here would be cool.

[Kobra_D]

I don't see any reason to play Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile in this deck. Not to mention Stoneforge Mystic. Never saw a list playing it. The reason why I prefer the white splash over green is because of the slimmer sideboard package, but it's somewhat weaker against Miracles. If my local meta would be heavy Miracles, I'd splash G.

Concerning Mentor: In theory it could be good to leech some value out of your dead cards until you are able to deal with the hate. Some data here would be cool.

StP/PtE by themselves don't do anything for Reanimator but I think are only for a transformational SB into something else like mentor or SFM. Although I do agree about SFM, I don't like the equipment package in any case.

Going back to your earlier post, I may argue for revoke existence as it hits chalice on 1. Not completely over fragmentize but as a 1 of in the board to stay a wish target. Have a lot of luck with 4 wishes? I always found that 3 was enough to see it but 4 led to some clogged hands.

[splorf]

Going back to your earlier post, I may argue for revoke existence as it hits chalice on 1. Not completely over fragmentize but as a 1 of in the board to stay a wish target. Have a lot of luck with 4 wishes? I always found that 3 was enough to see it but 4 led to some clogged hands.

Haven't had the oppotunity to test Burning Wish at all, but I consider to run it until the meta chills down a little bit. I think to play the whole 4 copies is correct, since you can pitch excessive ones. My plan with it is to bypass hate via Stronghold Gambit.

Valid argument to play Revoke Existence over Fragmentize, but Chalice + friends are the reason why I want to try Vindicate as a catch all. I prefer Fragmentize, because it's easier to cast the same turn you fetched it with Wish.

[Kobra_D]

Haven't had the oppotunity to test Burning Wish at all, but I consider to run it until the meta chills down a little bit. I think to play the whole 4 copies is correct, since you can pitch excessive ones. My plan with it is to bypass hate via Stronghold Gambit.

Valid argument to play Revoke Existence over Fragmentize, but Chalice + friends are the reason why I want to try Vindicate as a catch all. I prefer Fragmentize, because it's easier to cast the same turn you fetched it with Wish.

That's true, vindicate back up makes fragmentize seem more appealing.

I would be careful with gambit though, it does depend on your meta. Unless you spend a bunch of time stripping hands with your discard the top opponents we would face will have some amount of small critters to get under our fatties. Not saying that it doesn't help dodge hate, it is just not a simple 2 mana griselbrand.

[xix]

It quite clearly says in the post that it's a Burning Wish target.

I saw that, I don't like Fragmentize its sorcery and requires the vindicate or meltdown/spree, vs Wear//Tear, instant, can choose modes or fuse (sometimes relevant vs miracles), Could also just serenity, though that makes you wait a 1=2 turns(depending if you cast the turn you wish or not, or run 4 and sideboard them in straight.)

vs eldrazi they run chalice and leyline, and they run Warping wail.
vs miracles green was already better and the matchups not good anyway. But I have fused to make wear//tear work vs CB
vs lands, they run chalice and sphere, in varying numbers


Maybe I am missing something, Id love to hear why though. Right now I might still be leaning toward green splash and just wish for the Rev. Silence etc., Abrupt decay is very handy.

[Kobra_D]

This post is mostly for me, just to collect some of the recent thoughts together from my understanding of everything. And if I've misinterpreted something someone else has said please feel free to correct me.

Something that I need to remind myself on here and that is that it is important to be clear of what hate we are trying to deal with, what matchups are we not only weakest against but most likely to see in our respective meta's.

The 3 decks that I run into locally and consider my SB to need to deal with are (in this order):
1) Death and Taxes
2) Miracles
3) Eldrazi

After that I look at the typical lists to see what kind of hate I can expect, and of all the hate in the deck what is most relevant.
1) Rest in Peace, Faerie Macabre (not a fan of this new tech >.>), containment priest.
2) Pithing Needle/surgical
3) Leyline

If I try to stay in just 2 colors, I think we all agree, there will be a nightmare of a time dealing with the enchantment hate. Pure BR could open up into sneak attack, but if they see good ole Griselbrand, pithing needle/revoker are coming in if they have them anyways. Stronghold's Gambit could work we would need to empty the hands of a lot of opponents before our creatures are cheapest.

If we go to the G splash, abrupt decay/krosan grip are great for miracles and some other hate. Reverent Silence hits RiPs and Leylines like it's nobodies business, but doesn't provide anything against faeries. We could use our discard to try and hit but it still gets weird, plus containment priest, Dr. Shaman, and karakas will need separate answers like needle, disfigure...

The W splash is cheaper, both monetarily and in space needed in the sideboard, and mostly provides enchantment removal. Wishing is a great way to toolbox, which we need with all the varied hate available, but at sorcery speed, in a deck that is mana greedy, we open ourselves to opp. discard. Plus I've had miracles players counter my wish target after I've had to spend 2 turns to get it which never feels nice.

It hasn't really been mentioned here but going with a U splash is an option. Show and tell is a thing, as is blue draw and our own counterspells. Personally, I don't want to play blue, but it is an option.

On the last page @TokenMaster brought up mentor as a SB option. This makes the deck transformative in G2/G3 and it's not like it hasn't been done before. While it was only around for a short time, Young Frankenstein was a deck did something similar with young pyromancer instead. Still worth considering, it does not answer the hate too well, but it does avoid it all together.

This one might be my favorite option at the moment, I do love sneak attack but D&T running revoker and containment priest do make it problematic. that being said I am going to be toying around with a SB that looks like this for the near future and I would love some feedback.

//SB
2x Pithing Needle
1x Path to Exile
1x To the Slaughter
4x Monastery Mentor
1x Blazing Archon
2x Disenchant
2x Deathmark
1x Massacre
1x Lost Legacy

Archon is for the Eldrazi matchup first and foremost. It has utility elsewhere which is nice but this is my first consideration for that deck. To the slaughter helps with BUG/Miracles, any pesky deck that can play liliana on us. Edict is not a huge friend. And yes, we can reanimate again, but if you can't dig for reanimation spells it will get awkward.

Deathmark, massacre, helps with D&T, as well as DRS, Stoneforge, BUG, which is nice. Disfigure does provide speed, as does fatal push, but they don't hit bigger threats which can inevitably show up.

Disenchant is not for miracles. My answer for miracles is to pray, cast a quick pithing needle, have to the slaughter ready , and just discard all their draw spells. Disenchant does hit Rip, leylines, and cages, which is rather nice in most other match ups. Miracles is also the place where I would board in mentor first without second thought.

Lost legacy is to catch those pesky faeries, and surgicals which I can't do much about otherwise.

Hopefully, something like this can provide some more resilience and delineate ourselves enough that hate becomes harder to play. The goal is to be back in the DTB section by.. April sound fair?

Good luck, and if anyone else has thoughts or better cards suggestions I would appreciate it.

Praise be to Griselbrand.

[jroharo]

I don't see any reason to play Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile in this deck. Not to mention Stoneforge Mystic. Never saw a list playing it. The reason why I prefer the white splash over green is because of the slimmer sideboard package, but it's somewhat weaker against Miracles. If my local meta would be heavy Miracles, I'd splash G.

Concerning Mentor: In theory it could be good to leech some value out of your dead cards until you are able to deal with the hate. Some data here would be cool.

Agreed. This is also the reason I play the white splash.

[Kobra_D]

Agreed. This is also the reason I play the white splash.

Reanimator as is I wouldn't want something like swords to plowshares, but if you move into a Mentor SB StP does help get around somethings like a slow start against Eldrazi/Mud, grixis, and D&T. Probably Path to Exile > StP as the 1 land for x life could become relevant.



...
3 Stronghold Gambit (Two for MB, one to fetch with Wish)
1 Unmask / Despise / Harsh Scrutiny / Cabal Therapy


Going back to this sideboard, I've been thinking about it a bit and I might consider Thoughtseize.

If your plan to dodge hate is Stronghold Gambit then you need to dump the creatures out of their hand. I assume you already had 3 unmask in the MB so the 4th is nice but at the cost of a card meh, you're already settling in for a long game G2,G3 and 2 for 1 can't simply be ingnored like G1.

The other options for discard are good and hit creatures but the downside to each makes them not as versatile in all matchups. Once in a while you'll still want to hit a counter spell or a planeswalker and the 2 life isn't super relevant given the flavor text of Griselbrand.

This point is moot if you already run 4 Thoughtseize main but I might swap that for the last unmask main since speed kills.

[splorf]

Reanimator as is I wouldn't want something like swords to plowshares, but if you move into a Mentor SB StP does help get around somethings like a slow start against Eldrazi/Mud, grixis, and D&T. Probably Path to Exile > StP as the 1 land for x life could become relevant.



Going back to this sideboard, I've been thinking about it a bit and I might consider Thoughtseize.

If your plan to dodge hate is Stronghold Gambit then you need to dump the creatures out of their hand. I assume you already had 3 unmask in the MB so the 4th is nice but at the cost of a card meh, you're already settling in for a long game G2,G3 and 2 for 1 can't simply be ingnored like G1.

The other options for discard are good and hit creatures but the downside to each makes them not as versatile in all matchups. Once in a while you'll still want to hit a counter spell or a planeswalker and the 2 life isn't super relevant given the flavor text of Griselbrand.

This point is moot if you already run 4 Thoughtseize main but I might swap that for the last unmask main since speed kills.

Running already 4 Thoughtseize MB and a 2/2 Split of Unmask and Collective Brutality. With Stronghold Gambit tactics I'd prefer to leave it like this and try sth. like Despise or Harsh Scrutiny out of the board. As pointed out, it's crucial to get creatures out of their hand.

[potatodavid]

I played our weekly legacy last night. Went 2-2. Got a few games in. The Sideboard was 100% fluff.

U/R Delver. 0-2 (mull to 5 game 1, has the surgical, delver and daze game 2)

DragonStorm (yes) 2-0 Game 1 chancellor goes the distance. Game 2 Turn 1 Iona

U/W spirits 2-1, I turn 1 gris, opponent concedes when i draw 7. Game 2, he has swords for me. I get a Phyrexian Obliterator down but... die to his flyers. Game 3. I'm in trouble until I land a bloodmoon. He Phantasmal Images my elesh norn, i eliminate that buy simply collective brutality, throw a sire and griz into play. GG's

Sultai Nic Fit (1-2) Game 1. DRS is good. Game 2 Turn 1 Gris is good. Game 3. Leovold + Nissa and Gitrog Monster.

[Kobra_D]

Running already 4 Thoughtseize MB and a 2/2 Split of Unmask and Collective Brutality. With Stronghold Gambit tactics I'd prefer to leave it like this and try sth. like Despise or Harsh Scrutiny out of the board. As pointed out, it's crucial to get creatures out of their hand.

Yeah, if you already run a playset of Thoughtseize main then my point becomes a bit irrelevant. IMO I would try Despise then, hitting a Jace or Lili in BUG and Miracles lists is quite nice if there isn't a relevant creature in hand.


I played our weekly legacy last night. Went 2-2. Got a few games in. The Sideboard was 100% fluff.

U/R Delver. 0-2 (mull to 5 game 1, has the surgical, delver and daze game 2)

DragonStorm (yes) 2-0 Game 1 chancellor goes the distance. Game 2 Turn 1 Iona

U/W spirits 2-1, I turn 1 gris, opponent concedes when i draw 7. Game 2, he has swords for me. I get a Phyrexian Obliterator down but... die to his flyers. Game 3. I'm in trouble until I land a bloodmoon. He Phantasmal Images my elesh norn, i eliminate that buy simply collective brutality, throw a sire and griz into play. GG's

Sultai Nic Fit (1-2) Game 1. DRS is good. Game 2 Turn 1 Gris is good. Game 3. Leovold + Nissa and Gitrog Monster.


Spicy Meta. You said your SB was fluff but did you maindeck the Phyrexian Obliterator ?

[potatodavid]

Spicy Meta. You said your SB was fluff but did you maindeck the Phyrexian Obliterator ?

Obliterator is in my board. I wasn't terribly impressed with him. Never played anything like shardless where he would be extremely useful. I brought him in against UW spirits because batterskull doesn't fly, and my opponent plays a few things like Geist that I can chump for decent value. Also he dodges Spell Pierce.

We have a lot of guys who try "Pet Decks" Generally if you win your first round, you'll play one of the typical, Miracles, D&T, Traditional Storm, Shardless etc. It is nice though, every Thursday night is Christmas.

Last night our winners were. D&T and 12 post with D&T Taking the crown. Meta is spicy.

[Karhumies]

After that I look at the typical lists to see what kind of hate I can expect, and of all the hate in the deck what is most relevant.
1) Rest in Peace, Faerie Macabre (not a fan of this new tech >.>), containment priest.
2) Pithing Needle/surgical
3) Leyline

If I try to stay in just 2 colors, I think we all agree, there will be a nightmare of a time dealing with the enchantment hate.

If you know that there will be a lot of Rest in Peace in the local metagame, old school transformational sb into Leyline of the Void - Helm of Obedience combo becomes an option. The weakness of this sb plan is Br's limited tutoring (Gamble, splash W for E.tutor) and the opponent's Pithing Needle randomly hitting the plan.

[splorf]

Another possibility could be a Doomsday transformation. Seems to be hard to assemble without cantrips though.

[DNSolver]

There's also no good Doomsday transform. The two non-storm kills I know of are soft to lots of decks:

Shelldock Isle -> Emrakul: soft to Wasteland, Terminus, Karakas.
Laboratory Maniac: soft to Swords to Plowshares, Bolt, etc.

You could probably build a pile of Shelldock, Emrakul, Pithing Needle x2, Duress ? And that might be good enough against Wasteland or Karakas, but against Miracles you will probably still get Terminus'd.

If people want to brew on that, though, I'd be interested.

[splorf]

Here is a configuration I copied from .dk out of the TinFins thread:

"There are 2 basic strategies for using Doomsday in this deck. The first, and simpler case, is using Shelldock Isle to cast Emrakul. Shelldock lets you case the card hidden underneath it when you have 20 or less cards in your library - perfect for Doomsday! A typical pile that you would build would

Top-------------------------------------------->Bottom
Pithing Needle, Shelldock, Emrakul, Dark Ritual, Doomsday

This is assuming that you have 2 draw spells available. Use your first cantrip to draw Pithing Needle, and play it naming Wasteland or Karakas (whichever is right given the game state). Then use your next draw to draw into Shelldock Isle, play it hiding Emrakul. Pass the turn (don't die!), then untap, drawing Dark Ritual, and cast Emrakul, triggering an extra turn. On your following turn, you Attack, Annihilate, and then cast Dark Ritual -> Doomsday if you need to attack to win again (making sure you don't deck yourself)"

Source (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=850359&viewfull=1#post850359)

[DNSolver]

Yes. That win condition is still very vulnerable to Terminus. If you are content with your Miracles matchup without this plan, then feel free to pursue it. We would need a blue source to use this plan also, in which case perhaps Show and Tell is a better route.

[Rampart]

There's also no good Doomsday transform. The two non-storm kills I know of are soft to lots of decks:

Shelldock Isle -> Emrakul: soft to Wasteland, Terminus, Karakas.
Laboratory Maniac: soft to Swords to Plowshares, Bolt, etc.

You could probably build a pile of Shelldock, Emrakul, Pithing Needle x2, Duress ? And that might be good enough against Wasteland or Karakas, but against Miracles you will probably still get Terminus'd.

If people want to brew on that, though, I'd be interested.

Why can't you use the grapeshot storm kill? its on color?

[phazonmutant]

Reanimator as is I wouldn't want something like swords to plowshares, but if you move into a Mentor SB StP does help get around somethings like a slow start against Eldrazi/Mud, grixis, and D&T. Probably Path to Exile > StP as the 1 land for x life could become relevant.

Why wouldn't Reanimator want Swords to Plowshares? Back when UB Reanimator was all the rage, it was common to run a couple Echoing Truths and kill spells. Swords is the granddaddy of all the kill spells. Regarding Path, if you're bringing in removal, it's to hedge against games going later and more grindy. In those scenarios, giving your opponent a land is disastrous. Extra life usually means nothing but sometimes can mean an extra attack step. Path always means you ramp them to deploy more threats, disruption, etc.


Here is a configuration I copied from .dk out of the TinFins thread:

"There are 2 basic strategies for using Doomsday in this deck. The first, and simpler case, is using Shelldock Isle to cast Emrakul. Shelldock lets you case the card hidden underneath it when you have 20 or less cards in your library - perfect for Doomsday! A typical pile that you would build would

Top-------------------------------------------->Bottom
Pithing Needle, Shelldock, Emrakul, Dark Ritual, Doomsday

This is assuming that you have 2 draw spells available. Use your first cantrip to draw Pithing Needle, and play it naming Wasteland or Karakas (whichever is right given the game state). Then use your next draw to draw into Shelldock Isle, play it hiding Emrakul. Pass the turn (don't die!), then untap, drawing Dark Ritual, and cast Emrakul, triggering an extra turn. On your following turn, you Attack, Annihilate, and then cast Dark Ritual -> Doomsday if you need to attack to win again (making sure you don't deck yourself)"

Source (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=850359&viewfull=1#post850359)

Doomsday was never a great transformation I think, but also this deck couldn't possibly support it. The TinFins list at the time was playing playsets of Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe, and 2-4 Tops. Doomsday really requires a certain density of draw spells to be effective.

[.dk]

I would find it very difficult to justify running Doomsday without access to blue Cantrips. Probe and Top alone are essentially required to draw into your pile. And assuming you want to run Tendrils, then you need at least 2 LED's as well. You could replace Ideas Unbound with Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain, but you're SO vulnerable to aggressive clocks at that point. So now you're at 4 Doomsday, 4 Top, 4 Probe, 1 Infernal Contract, 2 LED - with only 1 slot available. So you're out of luck on Shelldock + Emrakul, unless you're planning to run one of those maindeck. Not to mention that you need another blue source to be able to activate Shelldock Isle (Lotus Petal is fine, but only non-land sources seems risky).

At any rate, even for Tin Fins, I really don't think Doomsday is the best transformation. Some version of a Mentor transformation is - if you're looking to switch gears, I would look there first myself.

/edit:

I suppose you could run Doomsday, Helm, Top, Grapeshot. But I still would wager that Mentor is better. Doomsday is still vulnerable to Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce, just like your maindeck plan is. Surgical is also not kind if they Surgical you in response to the first spell you cast post-Doomsday. Mentor gets around all of that.

[splorf]

Doomsday was never a great transformation I think, but also this deck couldn't possibly support it. The TinFins list at the time was playing playsets of Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe, and 2-4 Tops. Doomsday really requires a certain density of draw spells to be effective.

Yeah, that's what I expected earlier anyway. Just collecting tech how to deal with the recent rising amout of hate this deck is facing.


Why wouldn't Reanimator want Swords to Plowshares?

Again, why would you want it? It pretty much doesn't do anything besides the mirror.

[.dk]

Wow, I also just noticed in your quote that I made a typo in that post. case = cast. 2.5 years later. I guess I'll fix it. :)

[splorf]

I would find it very difficult to justify running Doomsday without access to blue Cantrips. Probe and Top alone are essentially required to draw into your pile. And assuming you want to run Tendrils, then you need at least 2 LED's as well. You could replace Ideas Unbound with Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain, but you're SO vulnerable to aggressive clocks at that point. So now you're at 4 Doomsday, 4 Top, 4 Probe, 1 Infernal Contract, 2 LED - with only 1 slot available. So you're out of luck on Shelldock + Emrakul, unless you're planning to run one of those maindeck. Not to mention that you need another blue source to be able to activate Shelldock Isle (Lotus Petal is fine, but only non-land sources seems risky).

At any rate, even for Tin Fins, I really don't think Doomsday is the best transformation. Some version of a Mentor transformation is - if you're looking to switch gears, I would look there first myself.

/edit:

I suppose you could run Doomsday, Helm, Top, Grapeshot. But I still would wager that Mentor is better. Doomsday is still vulnerable to Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce, just like your maindeck plan is. Surgical is also not kind if they Surgical you in response to the first spell you cast post-Doomsday. Mentor gets around all of that.

The man plan was also in the pipeline, but it seems nobody seriously tried so far, since not everyone is splashing white. I gave it a chance some weeks ago, but wasn't able to collect xp with it, because Mentor didn't show up during my matches. Some data here would be appreciable.

Edit:

Wow, I also just noticed in your quote that I made a typo in that post. case = cast. 2.5 years later. I guess I'll fix it. :)

You're welcome &-)

[Karhumies]

The man plan was also in the pipeline, but it seems nobody seriously tried so far, since not everyone is splashing white.

Personally, I would be interested in hearing opinions about Sin Prodder and Chandra, Torch of Defiance which have recently popped up in red stompy lists in transformational "man-plan" SBs. At least in my eyes, they both seem like excellent draw engines for Brx colors.

[splorf]

Personally, I would be interested in hearing opinions about Sin Prodder and Chandra, Torch of Defiance which have recently popped up in red stompy lists in transformational "man-plan" SBs. At least in my eyes, they both seem like excellent draw engines for Brx colors.

I think they have a natural home in those lists because of some synergies, but I doubt this applies on BR. Our mana is too clunky for RR and Sin Prodder will most likely backfire more often than not. To trash our mana for 0-1 life is not the highest price to pay for our opponents.

[TokenMaster]

The man plan was also in the pipeline, but it seems nobody seriously tried so far, since not everyone is splashing white. I gave it a chance some weeks ago, but wasn't able to collect xp with it, because Mentor didn't show up during my matches. Some data here would be appreciable.Not a significant event but I tried at my LGS twice and found it was a rather fast clock when opponents aren't on a particularly proactive gameplan.(Mentor absolutely wrecks if the opponent mulligans aggressively to look for graveyard hate)

Against Deathrite Shaman an unchecked Mentor, or even a couple of stray tokens can force the Shaman off the board. The drawback is that it's still weak to grixis delver if delver comes out early with enough gas behind it and terminus is still rough to deal with, although it becomes easier if the opponent also boarded out some number of Swords to Plowshares. It's also fairly vulnerable to Wasteland if we're trying to bring it out without acceleration. An early Wasteland that just sits there can pressure us out of playing red spells if we're waiting on playing Mentor and don't run basic mountains.

I'd like more data on this plan as well but while I'm a fan of mentor I definitely don't think it's good for every local environment.

[Kobra_D]

I am breaking some responses into two posts in case people only care about 1 or the other:

I have found moderate success with Sneak Attack as the transform, with rituals and lotus petals, T1 is still plausible which is kind of cool. But it just gets better later into the game.

I find opponents will usually needle griselbrand, so Sneak attack can go unchecked at least the first time along with me keeping in all the fatties that I wanted to play in the first play. Downside is that Iona is significantly worse.

The last reason why I would advocate for Sneak is that it does not require a new color, so there is still the option to splash for other SB options.

Something like Doomsday checks off a lot of similar boxes but the win is completely different, where here the win con is the same from g1-g3 and so feels more consistent, at least when I am piloting it.

If anyone is active on cockatrice I wouldn't mind jamming in a bunch of games with the various SB options against the standard gauntlet of decks out there. My name is Mark_D1.

[Kobra_D]

Why wouldn't Reanimator want Swords to Plowshares? Back when UB Reanimator was all the rage, it was common to run a couple Echoing Truths and kill spells. Swords is the granddaddy of all the kill spells. Regarding Path, if you're bringing in removal, it's to hedge against games going later and more grindy. In those scenarios, giving your opponent a land is disastrous. Extra life usually means nothing but sometimes can mean an extra attack step. Path always means you ramp them to deploy more threats, disruption, etc.

Echoing truths is a better catch all as it doesn't hit only creatures. That is the one place StP doesn't shine. Granted it is still fine, it wouldn't be the reason for me to splash a color here. The mentor plan is the reason why I would splash white therefore also boarding in path. If that were the case then I am already going to take more combat steps than typical since Griselbrad and Iona clock faster than any pile of monk tokens usually do (this isn't always true but true enough for a lot of cases).

So, if I have gone through a transformative SB plan, the extra mana a deck has to cast threats/hate is not huge IMO, but the extra turn or two that they may have would be disastrous. Especially if they are using the extra mana to cast grave hate effectively timewalking themselves.

If we go by the current DTB (along with the ones that just dropped) to compare to:

Miracles- Runs plenty of basics sure, but they probably don't have a creature we care to hit (except maybe their mentor). The land does make entreat 1 better but they will also just wait if they are really setting up entreat. Does force a shuffle after they've been topping a bunch assuming that CB is not also in play. But I'm still probably not boarding this in anyways.

BUG- Some lists do not run any basics which means PtE becomes free. The boost in mana does mean something as it could be an extra early thoughtseize, but otherwise, an extra combat step for them could also be disastrous as they may be able to beat us down efficiently enough. Once they have 3 mana it doesn't matter as deluge at any point wipes the whole mentor plan.

Sneak and Show- If we are Swords-ing a creature here then the mana problem is effectively irrelevant as they have show and telled or snuck something in already. Granted they will have a ton of basics to fetch for and might even open up a brainstorm for them that they had otherwise tapped out but I think that is more acceptable. Giving an extra turn here might mean our own death as untap->sneak->emrakul can send us back to the stone age and untap->sneak->emrakul-Griselbrand just means game.

Decks that just came off of DTB:
Death and Taxes- I may want a StP here, but the extra combat that they receive is also relevant I could consider this 50/50 on my decision.

Infect- I can never see a reason to give them an extra untap step as it is way too easy for them to attack for 10 out of nowhere. Although swords in general wouldn't be soo bad, this deck is resilient enough that it is not unreasonable for them to reload within a game.

Eldrazi- I haven't played against them in a while, so maybe things have changes but they previously had no basics. Chalice on 1 makes a lot of this particular consideration moot.

BR Reanimator- Who cares, we have both sat down to do awesome stuff, why not ID and go split a bag of chips with our newly found bretheren. Realistically, the StP might be better here, I would rather a reanimator player having 1 more turn rather than 1 more mana.

So from all my considerations I would agree that StP is a premium removal spell, as PtE is also great. However, neither does anything that a T1 7/7 doesn't handle nicely. Post board I am so worried about dealing with hate first that my considerations are going that as opposed to spot removal. Not to mention that there is a lot of good removal in black for the majority of what might be an issue otherwise (push, brutality, disfigure, deathmark all come to mind).

Swords is fine in a lot of other match ups but I think specifically here with what the metagame is, PtE is where I want to be.

[Zooligan]

Hey, so I see a BR Reanimator list 5-0'd a league online. Does this mean Animate Dead is de-bugged?

[Zifbox]

Hey, so I see a BR Reanimator list 5-0'd a league online. Does this mean Animate Dead is de-bugged?
The Feb 23rd Bug Blog showed it as being fixed.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-online/magic-online-bug-blog-february-23-2017

I'm thinking of picking this deck up on MtGO... question though. Ignoring price for the moment, which version of this deck is better equipped for the current metagame? BU or RB?

[Zooligan]

The Feb 23rd Bug Blog showed it as being fixed.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-online/magic-online-bug-blog-february-23-2017

I'm thinking of picking this deck up on MtGO... question though. Ignoring price for the moment, which version of this deck is better equipped for the current metagame? BU or RB?

Yeah, that's a pretty hot debate right now. I think more people would say UB with FoW and SnS right now, but I'm not certain.

[Jeff]

Honestly my answer would be neither, but if I had to pick it'd probably be UB.

RB exploited a hole in the metagame: The most popular graveyard hate was slow but resilient: Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman, Relic of Progenitus. People were not prepared for a Reanimator deck that could consistently reanimate a threat on turn 1 or 2 with disruption. Now, though, everyone is playing surgical extraction like crazy. Even the white decks are giving up on RIP and playing Surgical. Faerie Macabre is at least mildly popular to get around Chancellor. Storm is playing graveyard hate for the first time in recent memory.

The proper response to this is one of two things: Play a slower and more resilient graveyard strategy that can beat a single surgical extraction (most UB lists, some Dredge lists), or don't play graveyard decks at all until people get tired of taking up 2 or 3 sideboard slots with surgicals that don't come in anymore. After that it'll be time to bring back RB.

This deck is always going to be a meta call. If people are prepared for it, you don't want to be playing it. But if people aren't prepared for it, you'll crush them. Don't sell the pieces, but don't get committed to sleeving it up every week either.

[marshalltj]

Some coverage from a recent event BR took first at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwVO9HW56QU

List here:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14900&d=289911&f=LE

[Zifbox]

I did indeed take the plunge and liquidated my modern stuff to build this on MtGO, and I'm having a blast! My list is based on those that have 5-0'd leagues recently, with Wear // Tear in the side.

Adjusting the creature package for games 2-3 is easy, but I'm not feeling confident with how I sideboard my spells - or rather, what I'm taking out. Here's what I usually trim:

1 Chrome Mox if it's a slower matchup where I'm more likely to take a few draws into land.
1 Faithless Looting if I brought in Collective Brutality
1 Unmask if I expect a grindy game where I can't afford the card disadvantage
1 Animate Dead, being the worst of our reanimation spells, if I can't think of anything else to cut
4 Exhume in the mirror
1 creature, going down to 9

I kinda just wing it every time and don't have much of a plan. I'm hoping I could get some advice.

[DNSolver]

Two Griselbranders did well in the Legacy Challenge this past weekend. One got top 8 and one got top 16.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-premier-2017-03-13

[Doneval]

Two Griselbranders did well in the Legacy Challenge this past weekend. One got top 8 and one got top 16.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-premier-2017-03-13

Great to see that. Also, I thought the UB one was very interesting. It's basically the same as the BR Reanimator but with a blue sideboard plan, and ditching the Faithless Looting in favor of a Careful Study. I hate to give up the flashback ability of looting, but going two color only is very tempting (and blue is my favored sideboard alt plan anyway).

Any thoughts on that build? Anyone really missing looting enough to stick to 3 colors?

[Jeff]

Great to see that. Also, I thought the UB one was very interesting. It's basically the same as the BR Reanimator but with a blue sideboard plan, and ditching the Faithless Looting in favor of a Careful Study. I hate to give up the flashback ability of looting, but going two color only is very tempting (and blue is my favored sideboard alt plan anyway).

Any thoughts on that build? Anyone really missing looting enough to stick to 3 colors?

I also prefer the blue sideboard plan, I just never found that running both underground and badlands actually ended up costing me much of anything.

[DXpt]

Well, the Show&Tell/Ancient Tomb sideboard plan was around from the beginning. If I remember correctly even Todd Anderson played it at some SCG event about half a year ago. Don't know anybody who stuck to it long term though, everybody I knew just ended up playing BR in the end.

[Zooligan]

Shouldn't BU run at least a couple Echoing Truth in the board?

[Ziveeman]

Placed 5th in a 60 person Legacy event yesterday.

Creatures - 10
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Sire of Insanity

Spells - 38
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Animate Dead
4 Thoughtseize
4 Exhume
4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

Lands - 12
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
1 Scrubland

Sideboard
3 Wear // Tear
3 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Massacre
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Blazing Archon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Grave Titan

Round 1 - Dredge - WIN 2-0
Round 2 - Goblins - WIN 2-1
Round 3 - Death and Taxes - WIN 2-0
Round 4 - Eldrazi - Scooped to my brother 0-2
Round 5 - 12Post 2-0
Round 6 - Bant DeathBlade - WIN 2-1
Top 8 - Dragon Stompy - LOSE 1-2

[marshalltj]

There's been some discussion in a BR Reanimator Discord group about sideboarding that I thought was an interesting point to bring up. Namely, general rules to follow. Obviously it can be matchup dependent, but there was some basic ideas I wanted to cover and get people's thoughts on.

I've always stuck to the plan of taking out pro-active spells (TS, Unmask) for the reactive ones (Wear // Tear, AD etc), as to not dilute the combo or the speed.

Someone brought up that on the draw, they sideboard out their speed cards (so some combo of rituals / petals) for the reactive spells to protect the combo better. I thought that was a pretty good point worth being brought up, as I haven't seen a ton of discussion around cutting the "core" cards like ritual / petal for sideboard slots.

[splorf]

I find it generally difficult to board with this deck. I'm still in the progress of figuring out how to handle a prepared meta. As you said we have to sacrifice either parts of the combo or speed and I don't like to sacrifice speed, so I tried to bypass the hate so far. This deck is not that good being reactive without speed. With just 12-14 mana sources without Petals and Rituals you better draw good.

My current experimental sideboard looks like this:

4 Stronghold Gambit
4 Harsh Scrutiny (gets their creatures into the yard and scry 1 helps to find Gambit/Random Fatty)
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Meltdown/Crash

Always estimating the worst: Leylines of the Void. So the plan is to get their creatures into the gy, reanimate them and eventually put a fatty via Gambit onto the board. I don't say it's exactly the ideal solution, but all in all it provides the proactive mboard playstyle.

Edit: Leylines of the Void appears in my sweetest dreams. (No one. Ever.)

[DNSolver]

It's not clear from the above post if you understand this interaction:

Leyline of the Void only applies to the controller's opponents. So, you can discard your opponent's creatures and reanimate them freely, because their graveyard isn't exiled.

Interesting sideboard plan of Harsh Scrutiny + Top to dig for Gambit. Might be okay.

[splorf]

It's not clear from the above post if you understand this interaction:

Leyline of the Void only applies to the controller's opponents. So, you can discard your opponent's creatures and reanimate them freely, because their graveyard isn't exiled.

The "worst" is meant in a way you most likely can't reanimate your own creatures because of Leylines. Instead you focus on reanimating the opponent's, if available. I'm sorry, if this didn't come out clearer in my above post.

P.S.: I changed the position of the sentence. Maybe it becomes clearer, what I originally intended to say now. :tongue:

[Doneval]

I know we've talked about reanimation alternatives earlier in this thread, but I wanted to revisit that in light of the current meta.

My thinking right now is that there's a fair amount of graveyard hate, but it's mostly in the form of Surgical and/or Faerie Macabre. Because of that, I'm thinking of using an active sideboarding strategy: instead of bringing in Decays or Wear//Tear, I'm bringing in Show and Tell or Sneak Attack (usually siding out 4 Animate Dead). Does that make sense?

If so, what's your favorite active sideboarding plan? Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, or Stronghold Gambit (or something else)?

Personally, I'm not a fan of Gambit. Too many times I've been burned with them either brainstorming in response and getting a Delver, me going blind and them having a creature, or finding both a creature AND a Surgical when I Thoughtseize.

Right now I'm leaning towards Show and Tell, but I'm interested in other people's thoughts and experiences.

[Jeff]

I know we've talked about reanimation alternatives earlier in this thread, but I wanted to revisit that in light of the current meta.

My thinking right now is that there's a fair amount of graveyard hate, but it's mostly in the form of Surgical and/or Faerie Macabre. Because of that, I'm thinking of using an active sideboarding strategy: instead of bringing in Decays or Wear//Tear, I'm bringing in Show and Tell or Sneak Attack (usually siding out 4 Animate Dead). Does that make sense?

If so, what's your favorite active sideboarding plan? Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, or Stronghold Gambit (or something else)?

Personally, I'm not a fan of Gambit. Too many times I've been burned with them either brainstorming in response and getting a Delver, me going blind and them having a creature, or finding both a creature AND a Surgical when I Thoughtseize.

Right now I'm leaning towards Show and Tell, but I'm interested in other people's thoughts and experiences.

I played BR with a Show and Tell sideboard to a 10-5 record at Louisville. I tested the white splash, the green splash, and the blue splash pretty extensively in the weeks leading up to the event, and I always came away feeling the best about the blue splash. You can see my tournament report here (http://delifscube.blogspot.com/2017/01/tournament-report-gp-louisville-with-br.html) and see my updated sideboard plan here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PvpaIs9O63TQ94fuBGuDD-Cr_D9REzB3j7C6JRvB4bM/edit?usp=sharing).

On the whole I found that I very rarely won games where my opponent resolved a hate permanent, I removed that hate permanent, and then I combo'd off. Most decks were able to protect their card with countermagic, or I'd remove it but I wouldn't be able to also find the combo, or in the time it took me to remove it they'd find a second one or get so much countermagic I couldn't resolve the combo anyway. For the most part if I was winning against those decks, it was because I was racing them before they resolved their hate, or because I stripped it out of their hand.

Once I came to that conclusion, I became far less interested in boarding Abrupt Decay, Wear // Tear, or Reverent Silence. I switched to the Show and Tell plan, which dodged the vast majority of the hate and let me just win through it. So instead of needing 3 cards (Decay/Entomb/Reanimation) I just needed two (Show and Tell, Dude).

[Doneval]

Thanks, Jeff. I remember reading your report a while back. Maybe that's even what got me thinking in terms of active sideboards.

Would you still go with Blood Moons in the sideboard? That's the most surprising tech there. Would you still run it today, or would you use those spots for something else?

[Jeff]

Thanks, Jeff. I remember reading your report a while back. Maybe that's even what got me thinking in terms of active sideboards.

Would you still go with Blood Moons in the sideboard? That's the most surprising tech there. Would you still run it today, or would you use those spots for something else?

At the time they were the best way I was able to beat the Delver/Deathrite decks, and that's basically all they're there for (though I did go 2-0 against lands largely because of them at the GP). If I were seriously pursuing BR for a big tournament again I might put more work into finding a way to beat those decks without them, but I don't know what that would be. Going 1 for 1 on threats/answers with them never worked out for me because they're better prepared to do that than I am. I needed something I could do that would answer multiple cards. Blood Moon answering Deathrite, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and Daze felt pretty good, when it worked.

That matchup was never good, and I did lose to it at the GP in round 1 (double mulls to 5 to start my day didn't help). But it was the best thing I figured out how to do. The big thing for me was that I never really felt I needed the slots for anything else so it was worth using those slots to try and make the matchup better. If there were something else I needed, I could see cutting them and just trying to get there with Brutality. If you cut them you definitely need Tidespout Tyrant for the Lands matchup though.

[DNSolver]

A cool newer build of the blue version (from The Library at Pendrell Vale website). Got top 8 at a $1k.

UB Reanimator
Creatures (10)
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant

Spells (32)
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Animate Dead
4 Careful Study

Artifacts (6)
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
Lands (11)
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats

Sideboard (15)
4 Show and Tell
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Collective Brutality
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pithing Needle
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

[foukas]

I like the plan of making sure you find Show and Tell and it resolves, completely ignoring graveyard hate and possible answers to it. I don't get the single IoK in the sideboard though. More Brutalities would seem better.

Is there a mini sideboard primer for the blue version? I'm interested to see how Ancient Tombs and Boseiju fit into the mana base after game 1. Do you remove fetches? Chrome Mox?

Looking forward to GP Vegas :)

[marshalltj]

The Lim-Dul's vault is cool, could potentially fix the issue I had with the blue splash when I tried it. Granted I was doing RBu, but I found that a lot of times I'd be split on going for a show and tell vs going for a reanimate.

I think side boarding for show and tell, you want to drop 4x animate deads, and then I was replace entombs with creatures, because entomb doesn't actually count as a creature for us if we're on S&T plan.

The inquisition is really confusing to me too. I like the Boseiju.

[splorf]

Counting 59 cards maindeck. I assume there's one land missing? 12 lands is brave anyway :D

Edit: just found this pretty sweet list http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15077&d=291272&f=LE

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Using this decklist (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21763&iddeck=167308) from Grand Prix Louisville, what's the best sideboarding against Delver decks? Is a good choice to sideboard 3 Abrupt Decay and 4 Collective Brutality (in addition to some creatures) or are too many cards?

[Kobra_D]

Using this decklist (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21763&iddeck=167308) from Grand Prix Louisville, what's the best sideboarding against Delver decks? Is a good choice to sideboard 3 Abrupt Decay and 4 Collective Brutality (in addition to some creatures) or are too many cards?

Not all delver decks are exactly the same. Tried and true UR delver/Temur Delver/ Jeskai Delver, won't have abrupt decay. But I don't remember the last time I say Jeskai delver and UR/Temur are typically Grixis and change.

On the Draw:
Animate dead and chrome mox are the weakest in the match up, I would go either 6 or 5 cards swapped post board -2/-2/-2(-1) on Griselbrand, chrome mox, and animate dead. Replacing them with +4/+1/+1(0) Collective brutality, Elesh Norn, some other fatty that may be useful.

Delver hits hard and fast, so having to activate a bunch of times off of griselbrand could be a death sentence in it's own right. Chrome mox helps get around waste land but dies to abrupt decay and is card disadvantage for the little extra mana. Animate dead is fine, but arguably the weakest reanimation spell, so that's why it got cut some what.

Brutality is amazing against delver. Hits everything but 'goy and angler. Extra discard is nice. Life may be relevant. I usually see them rely on counterspells and surgical extraction/faerie macabre. That's why I'm not worried about the decay's and silences post board.

Depending on the match up you may want inkwell (something like esper or bant delver if those are things), or grave titan can be good leaving buddies behind. A couple match ups may want Iona, but that is your call.

Also, Sire is not the best in this match up. With them able to topdeck cantrips, if they have at least 1 land in play they may be able to stick something relevant (like strix or dismember in various flavors) at which point they can turn around a lot quicker than we can from topdecking.

On the Play:
Same idea, but since I'm going first, I would probably keep the animate deads and only bring in 2 or 3 collective brutalities. Speed kills and if you can stick a discard for their hate and reanimate something fast, they will be playing from behind which is a terrible spot for them.

[DNSolver]

I rebuilt a version of this deck today and just went 5-0 in a league online. This deck is still scary as ever. I tried a configuration I'm pretty happy with after building it pretty spontaneously. List should go on MTGGoldfish tomorrow or the next day, but it's been buggy so I'll post my list:

12 reanimate
4 Entomb
4 Looting
4 Thoughtseize
4 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
8 fetches
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor
1 Tidespout
1 Iona

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay (probably will go to 3 to fit something?)
4 Reverent Silence (my trademark card)
4 Faerie Macabre (mirror, dredge)
1 Archetype of Endurance and 1 Children of Korlis - to beat Miracles with a Griselbrand
1 Duress (extra protection against Delver)

I was especially impressed with Collective Brutality. Don't know why I ever put this deck down - I had several turn 1 kills. Against Delver (our worst matchup), the best cards are Chancellor (slows down DRS and allows goldfish on the play), Brutality (good to have maindeck then), and Decay (more removal for DRS, eliminates clock).

Matchups were:
R1: Elves 2-0
R2: Elves 2-0
R3: BUG Delver 2-1 (got unlucky G2 by keeping a no-lander and needing to hit 1 land)
R4: BUG Midrange? 2-0
R5: BUG Delver (Malimujo) 2-1

5 matches, 5 deathrite decks.

[zangoasyl]

I had several turn 1 kills

Sorry for the stupid question but how are you able to kill turn one? The only card that is able to deal damage without passing the turn is brutality and there you can choose the lifeloss mode only once...??? What am I missing?

[Hopo]

Sorry for the stupid question but how are you able to kill turn one? The only card that is able to deal damage without passing the turn is brutality and there you can choose the lifeloss mode only once...??? What am I missing?

It's common (while not technically true) to call a turn 1 Sire of Insanity or Griselbrand a first turn kill.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Not all delver decks are exactly the same. Tried and true UR delver/Temur Delver/ Jeskai Delver, won't have abrupt decay. But I don't remember the last time I say Jeskai delver and UR/Temur are typically Grixis and change.

On the Draw:
Animate dead and chrome mox are the weakest in the match up, I would go either 6 or 5 cards swapped post board -2/-2/-2(-1) on Griselbrand, chrome mox, and animate dead. Replacing them with +4/+1/+1(0) Collective brutality, Elesh Norn, some other fatty that may be useful.

Delver hits hard and fast, so having to activate a bunch of times off of griselbrand could be a death sentence in it's own right. Chrome mox helps get around waste land but dies to abrupt decay and is card disadvantage for the little extra mana. Animate dead is fine, but arguably the weakest reanimation spell, so that's why it got cut some what.

Brutality is amazing against delver. Hits everything but 'goy and angler. Extra discard is nice. Life may be relevant. I usually see them rely on counterspells and surgical extraction/faerie macabre. That's why I'm not worried about the decay's and silences post board.

Depending on the match up you may want inkwell (something like esper or bant delver if those are things), or grave titan can be good leaving buddies behind. A couple match ups may want Iona, but that is your call.

Also, Sire is not the best in this match up. With them able to topdeck cantrips, if they have at least 1 land in play they may be able to stick something relevant (like strix or dismember in various flavors) at which point they can turn around a lot quicker than we can from topdecking.

On the Play:
Same idea, but since I'm going first, I would probably keep the animate deads and only bring in 2 or 3 collective brutalities. Speed kills and if you can stick a discard for their hate and reanimate something fast, they will be playing from behind which is a terrible spot for them.
No Abrutpt Decay? I don't want to lose from a Grafdigger's Cage or Relic of Progenitus. :cry:

[TokenMaster]

I rebuilt a version of this deck today and just went 5-0 in a league online. This deck is still scary as ever. I tried a configuration I'm pretty happy with after building it pretty spontaneously. List should go on MTGGoldfish tomorrow or the next day, but it's been buggy so I'll post my list:

12 reanimate
4 Entomb
4 Looting
4 Thoughtseize
4 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
8 fetches
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor
1 Tidespout
1 Iona

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay (probably will go to 3 to fit something?)
4 Reverent Silence (my trademark card)
4 Faerie Macabre (mirror, dredge)
1 Archetype of Endurance and 1 Children of Korlis - to beat Miracles with a Griselbrand
1 Duress (extra protection against Delver)

I was especially impressed with Collective Brutality. Don't know why I ever put this deck down - I had several turn 1 kills. Against Delver (our worst matchup), the best cards are Chancellor (slows down DRS and allows goldfish on the play), Brutality (good to have maindeck then), and Decay (more removal for DRS, eliminates clock).

Matchups were:
R1: Elves 2-0
R2: Elves 2-0
R3: BUG Delver 2-1 (got unlucky G2 by keeping a no-lander and needing to hit 1 land)
R4: BUG Midrange? 2-0
R5: BUG Delver (Malimujo) 2-1

5 matches, 5 deathrite decks.
Did you come across a lot of Surgical Extraction in those rounds? I felt that the green splash was a bit soft to Surgical Extraction in counter-heavy decks.

[Kobra_D]

No Abrutpt Decay? I don't want to lose from a Grafdigger's Cage or Relic of Progenitus. :cry:

I took a quick look at the last few mtgtop8 decks under grixis delver (pure UBr), grixis control/4c Leovold (UBrg), and Sultai Delver.

I saw a 1 of grafdigger's cage in most of the grixis delver decks, I only saw surgicals and faerie macabres in the grixis control decks, and in 1 Sultai Delver deck did I see a 1 of nihil spellbomb in the sideboard.

These decks are going to have a ton of counterspells, and discard spells. Surgicals and faeries are the typical response, which is why I didn't plan on boarding in decay.

But if I see a cage and we go to g3 then of course I am bringing in decays, probably as a 2/2 split with collective brutality.

Decay is fine either way, it kills most of their stuff even if there are no artifact/enchantment hate cards out. But the actual hate cards are going to be played from the hand typically and that is what I am worried about first.

However, I guess I was under the assumption that you win G1, because reanimator is awesome. Which is something not everyone realizes, you can SB again for g3. I typically change things around so that my deck isn't the same 3 games in a row. However, if you lose g1 and aren't overly confidant in their sb plan then I might not board in the 2 fatties and instead bring in 2 decays.

Elesh Norn is great, but could easily be a win more card, where abrupt decay would just be good against delver creatures and delver hate possibly.

[Luca Grease]

I recently won a complete copy of this deck as the first prize of a 100 man tournament, and I'm in the process of updating its somewhat outdated list, a task complicated by my inexperience with the deck.
The version I have contained 4 copies of Badlands, 4 simian spirit guides, and sneak attack in the board. It seems to me that the sneak attack plan b has fallen out of flavor (which makes sense, since most of our creatures are a bit underwhelming off of it), in favor of more anti hate cards like decay and reverent silence. Without sneak attack, SSG doesn't make sense either, and people are running unmask instead.
My question to the deck's specialists is: do you feel like the new lists are clearly superior? Can I safely trade away a couple of Badlands, or are heavier red splashes poised for a comeback? Many thanks...

[Kobra_D]

Sneak attack does have some things going for it. 1) It dodges everything except containment priest, and 2) sneaking griselbrand usually means you will be able to draw into more fatties to keep going.

That being said, it isn't the best. If you could stick something through reanimating you will be in a better spot. That's why most people go for a splash to deal with hate like leylines, RiP, cage and so forth.

I think a lot of people have been sticking to the green splash, I've personally enjoyed white recently. And sometimes people go into blue for show and tell but if you're playing blue you may want to slow down a little bit and play UB reanimator (just my opinion).

Any way you slice it, it seems that 13 lands is the number people agree on. You can easily find lists that go between 12 and 14 mana sources between lands, monkeys and chrome moxes (not counting lotus petals and rituals).

4 spirit guides does sound like a lot though, at most I would suggest 1, but I don't run any currently.

As for the number of badlands, I've seen most lists play a lot of fetches and only a couple of actual lands, but without brainstorm in the deck, I don't see a reason to play 8 or so fetches. And if you have the badlands you might as well play them.

Unless you're really missing you're splash color which you could trade into, but with duals being so tedious to come by I would probably just hang on to them.

[Wrong Trousers]

A cool newer build of the blue version (from The Library at Pendrell Vale website). Got top 8 at a $1k.

UB Reanimator
Creatures (10)
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant

Spells (32)
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Animate Dead
4 Careful Study

Artifacts (6)
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
Lands (11)
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats

Sideboard (15)
4 Show and Tell
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Collective Brutality
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pithing Needle
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

So this is my list, wahey, should have posted it myself, but thanks for the spot!

Some thoughts are as follows; This deck is fast! like really fast and surprisingly consistent, I didn't have the mull all that often but when I did, no big issues, wins from a 5 cards happened.

The show and tell plan is real, I beat leyline 3 times in postboard games twice on the back of lim-duls vault, play this card Its really good when you are searching the other piece you need...

The one of Inquisition in the board was there to hit Fairie Macabre and surgical, didn't see macabre all day but it hit a surgical so I guess the plan worked :)

Brutality was surprisingly meh, when I drew it i always wanted it to something else weirdly I'm swapping it out for an echoing truth

Feel free to ask me any questions, oh and the 60th card card was a Verdant Catacombs

Take it easy,

Wrong Trousers

[from Cairo]

So this is my list

The show and tell plan is real

Feel free to ask me any questions

What's the cuts for the SnT package? When you're adding SnT, 2-3 Land and 2 LDVs I assume you're dropping Animates or Exhumes depending on the deck, are the other 4-5 mu dependent? Were you boarding into the SnT package most g2s?




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[Zooligan]

So this is my list,

Just curious, why TS over Cabal Therapy? I found when running TS i often wished i had that life back for G-brand activation.

[Wrong Trousers]

What's the cuts for the SnT package? When you're adding SnT, 2-3 Land and 2 LDVs I assume you're dropping Animates or Exhumes depending on the deck, are the other 4-5 mu dependent? Were you boarding into the SnT package most g2s?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If have won game 1, which happens quite often....ill board in 3 Show and tell, the vaults and a couple of land, for 2 chrome mox, dark ritual, animate deads. if I know or strongly suspect leyline, (Facing Dragon Stompy opponent from swiss rounds, for example) I got drastic, Out went 4 exhume, 4 entomb, 4 animate dead, 2 reanimate, in with everything but the pithing needle...


Went well, he starts with leyline, chalice for 1. My turn 1, lim-duls vault found SnT.
2nd turn SnT, griselbrand in hand (he lays ensnaring bridge, obviously.)
3rd turn SnT tidespout, win, nice.

[Venomous72]

Another 5-0 from DNSolver with that list. Looks good. I might have to test it. Unmask has just been so strong though. Also interested in the blue splash list. I ran UB Reanimator for a while and it was just a bit slow. Running a full 4x Show and Tell in the side and Ancient Tomb (should these be City of Traitors?) to power them out seems fun.

[DNSolver]

Yeah I had 3 5-0s in 3 days. It was disgusting.

[Venomous72]

Yeah I had 3 5-0s in 3 days. It was disgusting.

Awesome work.

Has the meta shifted away from graveyard hate (Surgicals mainly) or is this list just performing better than anticipated? My list typically ran a mix of 4x Unmask and then some number of Brutality and Thoughtseize, which worked pretty well.

[DNSolver]

I was impressed with Collective Brutality on many occaisions. However, I suspect that the main reason I was doing so well is that people forgot how much this deck warped the format. They assumed it was dead after they started playing a million surgicals. But they forgot the small things: how Exhume works, how Chancellor works, the broken starts we can have, etc.

In short, I have beaten a few surgicals and lost to a few surgicals. However, Deathrite was always one of the more annoying cards out of Delver decks, and the Brutalities maindeck have definitely covered that weakness for me.

My current record to now is 3 5-0s and 4 3-2s. That's 15+12 = 27 wins and 8 losses. 27/35 = 77%, and that's disgusting.

[Venomous72]

I was impressed with Collective Brutality on many occaisions. However, I suspect that the main reason I was doing so well is that people forgot how much this deck warped the format. They assumed it was dead after they started playing a million surgicals. But they forgot the small things: how Exhume works, how Chancellor works, the broken starts we can have, etc.

In short, I have beaten a few surgicals and lost to a few surgicals. However, Deathrite was always one of the more annoying cards out of Delver decks, and the Brutalities maindeck have definitely covered that weakness for me.

My current record to now is 3 5-0s and 4 3-2s. That's 15+12 = 27 wins and 8 losses. 27/35 = 77%, and that's disgusting.

Did you record any of these for your channel?

How do you board against matchups like BUG and Grixis Delver? Against Death and Taxes do you bring in all 4 Silences for Rest in Peace?

[Zooligan]

Did you record any of these for your channel?

Hold up. Solver's got a channel?!?

[Venomous72]

Hold up. Solver's got a channel?!?

Yeah typically he has been doing turbo depths on it. Hope to see some Reanimator soon!

[Zooligan]

What's the URL?

[sadface]

https://youtube.com/user/DNSolver

You didn't even try, did you?

[Zooligan]

Honestly I didn't know if you meant YouTube, twitch, discord, or something I'd hadn't even heard of yet. But I do know the fastest most efficient way to get the right answer is to ask someone who knows. I absolutely hate it when people on my project teams don't know something and instead of asking go and splash around who knows how long trying to find an answer. It just wastes time. Thing is, I would never criticize them for asking someone who does know the answer.

[Kofurea]

Hi! I've picked up this deck in paper and MTGO to prepare myself for upcoming legacy event. I've been liking it a ton so far, but especially sideboarding has me puzzled. I'm running a white splash as MTGO user R3incarna did as he seemed to have a ton of succes with it. The list for reference: http://mtgpulse.com/event/27470#358829

So, trying to formulate my questions as clear as possible:
What matchups should you bring in archetype of endurence? I'm having a hard time as I usually only figure it out post board (oh it would have been nice to have it here)
If you face eldrazi with possible leylines, karakas, chalice and macabre, I see about 6+ cards I would want in. If you bring in so many cards (which happens in some matchups), what do you board out. Do you guys (or gals) have a rule of thumb for boarding out a specific kind of card (speed, discard, reanimation, fatties) in specific matchups?
Is it ever correct to board over or under the 10 reanimation targets? (Since its the number i see in every list)
Say you t1 griselbrand on the play and your opponent concedes. You have no idea what they play, but they most likely bring in some sort of hate. How would you board?

Thanks in advance, I have 3 semi-big legacy tournaments coming up yielding this weapon, and I'll be sure to report back in.

[delfam]

can someone explain why we need Reverent Silence and Abrupt Decay? Doesn't Decay kill everything that Silence does?

I know Silence is free so that might be the reason, but there has to be something else?

[Stryfo]

Silence hits Leyline of the Void.

[HansoRaptor]

How do you guys like the two Chrome Moxen compared to the two extra lands?

Do you mulligan more? Is the card disadvantage severe?
Or would you say its explosiveness and its combination with Griselbrand's ability is worth the inclusion.

I would like to hear some of your opinions on it!

[from Cairo]

How do you guys like the two Chrome Moxen compared to the two extra lands?

Do you mulligan more? Is the card disadvantage severe?
Or would you say its explosiveness and its combination with Griselbrand's ability is worth the inclusion.

I would like to hear some of your opinions on it!

I had been running 14 land for about 5-6 weeklies and had found it to be fine. I decided to try the 12 land 2 Chrome Mox build and only have 2 events with it so far, but I've not been much of a fan.

My best explanation is that when mulliganing opening hands the Moxen look a lot worse than lands in 6 and 5 card hands. I appreciate that they can provide some explosiveness, but the card disadvantage can be too much with Unmask and Looting already putting you down a card.

One area they really are awesome is off of a Griselbrand draw 7 where you're sure to have a Black card you don't care about and they can lead to you chaining into a 2nd monster in that turn. That said, if I have a Griselbrand draw 7 resolving I'm feeling in a pretty good place.

I don't have enough time playing them to say for sure that I don't want them, but my preference has been the 14 land thus far.


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[marshalltj]

I've settled on 13 lands and 1 mox, as I worry about the same thing From Cairo mentioned.

I think if you're on mainboard brutality over unmask then 12/2 looks better.

[TheStalk]

I was impressed with Collective Brutality on many occaisions. However, I suspect that the main reason I was doing so well is that people forgot how much this deck warped the format. They assumed it was dead after they started playing a million surgicals. But they forgot the small things: how Exhume works, how Chancellor works, the broken starts we can have, etc.

In short, I have beaten a few surgicals and lost to a few surgicals. However, Deathrite was always one of the more annoying cards out of Delver decks, and the Brutalities maindeck have definitely covered that weakness for me.

My current record to now is 3 5-0s and 4 3-2s. That's 15+12 = 27 wins and 8 losses. 27/35 = 77%, and that's disgusting.

Out of curiosity, what made you put the Chancellors back in the deck? I remember a while back you were advocating for a more toolbox-y approach to the reanimation targets and had found some success with that plan.

[DNSolver]

The meta has changed a bit to make this deck very well-positioned. Before, Eldrazi decks were making Chancellor embarrassing because they could pay the cost or have Leyline on turn 0 that was awkward, so playing a slightly slower version that got value from having maindeck shroud creatures made sense. Not to mention that Chancellor didn't do anything against Eldrazi once in play, because it easily gets outraced, even with the Daze effect due to Cavern or just paying for it with so many sol lands.

This deck is great vs. Death and Taxes, all other combo decks, and (with the Brutalities I have been finding espeically so) good against BUG. It is decent against Miracles as long as you are willing to run Iona + Archetype (I even choose to have a Children of Korlis in the board). It has okay game against Delver with the Brutalities.

Edit: Also, just got another 5-0. Lost one game, in round 3.

R1: Dredge
R2: Storm
R3: Storm
R4: Red Stompy (had Rabblemasters, not sneaks)
R5: Grixis Delver

[Venomous72]

The meta has changed a bit to make this deck very well-positioned. Before, Eldrazi decks were making Chancellor embarrassing because they could pay the cost or have Leyline on turn 0 that was awkward, so playing a slightly slower version that got value from having maindeck shroud creatures made sense. Not to mention that Chancellor didn't do anything against Eldrazi once in play, because it easily gets outraced, even with the Daze effect due to Cavern or just paying for it with so many sol lands.

This deck is great vs. Death and Taxes, all other combo decks, and (with the Brutalities I have been finding espeically so) good against BUG. It is decent against Miracles as long as you are willing to run Iona + Archetype (I even choose to have a Children of Korlis in the board). It has okay game against Delver with the Brutalities.

Edit: Also, just got another 5-0. Lost one game, in round 3.

R1: Dredge
R2: Storm
R3: Storm
R4: Red Stompy (had Rabblemasters, not sneaks)
R5: Grixis Delver

Jesus man you are on a roll, nice work. Are you going to record any of these? Would love to see your mulligan choices and sideboarding.

[TheStalk]

The meta has changed a bit to make this deck very well-positioned. Before, Eldrazi decks were making Chancellor embarrassing because they could pay the cost or have Leyline on turn 0 that was awkward, so playing a slightly slower version that got value from having maindeck shroud creatures made sense. Not to mention that Chancellor didn't do anything against Eldrazi once in play, because it easily gets outraced, even with the Daze effect due to Cavern or just paying for it with so many sol lands.

This deck is great vs. Death and Taxes, all other combo decks, and (with the Brutalities I have been finding espeically so) good against BUG. It is decent against Miracles as long as you are willing to run Iona + Archetype (I even choose to have a Children of Korlis in the board). It has okay game against Delver with the Brutalities.

Edit: Also, just got another 5-0. Lost one game, in round 3.

R1: Dredge
R2: Storm
R3: Storm
R4: Red Stompy (had Rabblemasters, not sneaks)
R5: Grixis Delver

Yeah that makes sense. I'd also moved to something very close to your Chancellor-less 75, not so much due to Eldrazi (which I didn't happen to run into much), but just because Chancellor wasn't doing much against the hate decks were packing. It was good on the play vs FOW and it delayed DRS, and that was pretty much it. On the draw, opponents had wised up and kept up a mana to pay the tax on their FOW or Surgical, or they just played Leyline/Faerie Macabre. I haven't had a chance to play much recently but there seems to be less Leyline and Faerie in people's sideboards (although Surgical is still everywhere), so I guess now's a good time to remind everyone that playing fair decks comes with a price!

I also want to second Venomous72 - I learned a lot from watching the leagues you'd put on Erin's stream a few months back and would love to see you piloting your updated version :)

[Zooligan]

Edit: Also, just got another 5-0. Lost one game, in round 3

I'm having trouble with deathrite + blue counter decks. Any advice for playing against them pre and post sideboard? Wasn't Phyrexian obliterator the anti bug tech? Did that not pan out?

Oh, and please record and post your next 5-0 please! :)

[DNSolver]

I just recorded the replays of my last league:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44vIBXSCTAY&list=PL89Xvn6ryd0zzxwFdU6sLatgynGcqV9o4&index=1

Obliterator was for *Delver.* It's completely useless against BUG IMO due to Toxic Deluge, Liliana, Jace bounce, Maelstrom Pulse, or Baleful Strix.

Delver decks with Deathrite should be a hard matchup. The best weapons are Chancellor of the Annex and Collective Brutality.

[TokenMaster]

Any thoughts on environments where mainboard Unmask vs Collective Brutality is better? Brutality felt sluggish in my testing pre-board even against Deathrite and Delver decks and I felt like Unmask was both an incredibly useful enabler as well as a "free" counter check or hand peek.

I've also been testing the Mentor SB plan a bit and I'm still a big fan. I've said this before but especially with reanimation spells it often puts you in the driver's seat in "fair" matchups even when they open well or manage to counter the Mentor on the initial cast. Only thing is whether the Mentor with the other stuff you get from a white splash is worth cutting Decays and Reverent Silences, which I think it very well may be in environments that aren't heavy on permanent-based hate.

[neuhier]

I just recorded the replays of my last league:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44vIBXSCTAY&list=PL89Xvn6ryd0zzxwFdU6sLatgynGcqV9o4&index=1

Obliterator was for *Delver.* It's completely useless against BUG IMO due to Toxic Deluge, Liliana, Jace bounce, Maelstrom Pulse, or Baleful Strix.

Delver decks with Deathrite should be a hard matchup. The best weapons are Chancellor of the Annex and Collective Brutality.

Thanks a lot for the content DNSolver! Really appreciate it. The videos after round 2 are private. Is that intentionally? Would love to see the rest as well.

[Zooligan]

I just recorded the replays of my last league:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44vIBXSCTAY&list=PL89Xvn6ryd0zzxwFdU6sLatgynGcqV9o4&index=1


♪♫Awesome!!♫♪

[Zooligan]

Delver decks with Deathrite should be a hard matchup. The best weapons are Chancellor of the Annex and Collective Brutality.

Is it worth fighting countermagic with something like Autumn's Veil in green or Dispel or Flusterstorm in blue?

I'm also considering adding a 1-of enchantment like Concordant Crossroads or Mass Hysteria to give reanimated creatures haste after you draw your deck (made possible by CoK) Tinfins style but without going all-in on the haste plan the way Shallow Grave and Goryo's Vengence make you do in that deck. Thoughts?

[Joe Eigo]

I'm also considering adding a 1-of enchantment like Concordant Crossroads or Mass Hysteria to give reanimated creatures haste after you draw your deck (made possible by CoK) Tinfins style but without going all-in on the haste plan the way Shallow Grave and Goryo's Vengence make you do in that deck. Thoughts?

You could go with a 1 of Anger. It can be tutored with Entomb and even better: thrown into Faithles Looting. Needs Badlands in play though.

[Zooligan]

You could go with a 1 of Anger. It can be tutored with Entomb and even better: thrown into Faithles Looting. Needs Badlands in play though.

I like that idea a lot! Having BL in play isn't really very difficult. If it didn't get Wastelanded before your turn it's probably safe during your turn.

[menloe]

Any suggestions for a replacement for Unmask? They are a touch expensive online and I need something to run in their place until I can afford them. The slots are currently filled by Collective Brutality.

I run Unmask in the paper version of this deck so I know there's not an actual replacement, I just need something to use in a pinch or confirmation from the collective wisdom of this forum that Collective Brutality is the way to go for now.

I thought I'd ask for comments before I begin scouring magiccards.info and testing ridiculous shit in the tournament practice room.

Dank je wel friendos.

[Zooligan]

Any suggestions for a replacement for Unmask?

Solver has been having luck with 4 Collective Brutality/4 Thoughtseize. There's always Cabal Therapy I guess.

[Venomous72]

Any suggestions for a replacement for Unmask? They are a touch expensive online and I need something to run in their place until I can afford them. The slots are currently filled by Collective Brutality.

I run Unmask in the paper version of this deck so I know there's not an actual replacement, I just need something to use in a pinch or confirmation from the collective wisdom of this forum that Collective Brutality is the way to go for now.

I thought I'd ask for comments before I begin scouring magiccards.info and testing ridiculous shit in the tournament practice room.

Dank je wel friendos.

DNSolver is currently shitting all over MTGO with 4x Thoughtseize and 4x Collective Brutality, so I think CB is a great option. DNS has four 5-0's in the last week or two I think.

[menloe]

DNSolver is currently shitting all over MTGO with 4x Thoughtseize and 4x Collective Brutality, so I think CB is a great option. DNS has four 5-0's in the last week or two I think.


Solver has been having luck with 4 Collective Brutality/4 Thoughtseize. There's always Cabal Therapy I guess.

Beautiful, thanks. I am going to watch the videos he posted earlier as I catalog some books.

I got my list from an MTGO 5-0 league in early January that also ran x4 Collective Brutality over x4 Unmask. I think this was a concession to Unmask's high price/general scarcity at the time*, but it's good to know DNSolver has been successful lately with a comparable list.

(*I can't recall the user's name - I think it was tapedecky? - and don't know whether or not they read the forum or else I'd ask for their rationale.)

Cheers!

[Zooligan]

CBru is a very versatile card. Really it's only drawback is that it costs 1B. It's so good with being able to discard a fatty, yank a spell and kill a 2 or less power creature or gain 2 life which is sometimes relevant with fetches/thoughtseizes/reanimate life loss/g-pappy activations (or for that matter being able to discard 2 fatties and kill a 2 or less power creature AND gain 2 life).

[Venomous72]

CBru is a very versatile card. Really it's only drawback is that it costs 1B. It's so good with being able to discard a fatty, yank a spell and kill a 2 or less power creature or gain 2 life which is sometimes relevant with fetches/thoughtseizes/reanimate life loss/g-pappy activations (or for that matter being able to discard 2 fatties and kill a 2 or less power creature AND gain 2 life).

I run it as a 1-of in UB Reanimator, and last night it won me two matches. One by pitching Elesh and taking a Force, and another by duressing Blasphemous Act (lol) out of my friends hand where it would have killed me if he untapped. It is a fantastic card.

[Venomous72]

Um BR Reanimator had three 5-0's yesterday....

Jesus.

[Zooligan]

Um BR Reanimator had three 5-0's yesterday....

Jesus.

And its metagame percentage jumped from like 2% to almost 5% in two days on mtggoldfish. People are picking it up which means the hate will get dusted off.

[KnightJay96]

And its metagame percentage jumped from like 2% to almost 5% in two days on mtggoldfish. People are picking it up which means the hate will get dusted off.

Exactly. When BR was alot more of the meta percentage after mkm (I believe), the meta adapted to packing way more graveyard hate. I expect sugicals to rise to 3 or 4 in the sb due to how much its winning online.

[akwing00]

@DNSolver

Would you be able to go over how you have been sideboarding for some of your recent 5-0s on MTGO?

Also how are you using Children of Korlis? Still pretty new to legacy, so not sure when this comes in.

[TheStalk]

I just recorded the replays of my last league:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44vIBXSCTAY&list=PL89Xvn6ryd0zzxwFdU6sLatgynGcqV9o4&index=1

Obliterator was for *Delver.* It's completely useless against BUG IMO due to Toxic Deluge, Liliana, Jace bounce, Maelstrom Pulse, or Baleful Strix.

Delver decks with Deathrite should be a hard matchup. The best weapons are Chancellor of the Annex and Collective Brutality.

Love the content, thanks! If you record another one (or just in a reply here), I'd like to know what you board out when you board in lots of cards (like when you mentionned bringing in 4 Decay/4 RevSilence) without hurting the consistency too much. When bringing in cards I usually board out to keep my ratios more or less even (so cuts like, 1 creature/1 fast mana/etc.), but for so many cards I'm not too sure how I'd go about it. Also, when cutting fast mana, do you always cut the same piece, or does that depend on the matchup?

[DNSolver]

Glad to hear that people liked the videos. Not sure if there is still difficulty with the video of rounds 3-5, thought I fixed it.

A couple questions that people asked:

Children of Korlis: I'm using this to beat Miracles. Unless you assemble an unwinnable position for your Miracles opponent, they have Terminus / Swords that can kill your creatures because we aren't activating draw 7s into Force of Will to protect Griz. The winning position I am trying to assemble is Archetype + Iona on white. Miracles cannot beat this without a ridiculous card such as Devastation Tide. Getting a creature on the board isn't a lock in this matchup (though just Iona on white is pretty close, can only be dealt with by Jace bounce, Karakas, Venser bounce, racing with Snapcaster + Clique)

Sideboarding: I've found that this version has enough fast mana (10) that some of it can be trimmed postboard in most matchups, especially on the draw. On the draw, your fast starts might not necessarily be good/fast enough and you would prefer having multiple reanimation spells, a stable manabase. One example is Chancellor, which revealing is a lot worse on the draw because it doesn't let you win turn 1 unhindered. So typically you can board out at least a Ritual and a Chrome Mox. In matchups where Tidespout is bad (Miracles, Elves), you can board it out. In matchups where Iona is bad (Delver, Eldrazi), you can board it out.

When you're boarding in more than a few cards, your deck and playstyle change considerably. For example, against Eldrazi or another stompy deck, here's one proposed board plan:

On the draw:
-1 Iona
-4 Dark Ritual (gets Chalice'd and Trinisphered)
-3 Collective Brutality (creatures are not usually what we're worried about in this matchup, and this can't discard anything relevant from the opponent)
+4 Reverent Silence (to hit Leyline)
+4 Abrupt Decay (to hit Chalice, Thorn? and maybe Trinisphere?)

Make sense?

[DNSolver]

This deck has been seeing a resurgence on magic online. I caught a glimpse of this deck on multiple twitch streams today.

I figured I would join the fun. I'm going to stream!

twitch.tv/dnsolver

[Zooligan]

This deck has been seeing a resurgence on magic online. I caught a glimpse of this deck on multiple twitch streams today.

I figured I would join the fun. I'm going to stream!

twitch.tv/dnsolver

That is awesome!

[DNSolver]

Had a great time streaming this evening.

League 1: 3-2
R1: Manaless Dredge 2-0
R2: Elves 2-0
R3: BR Reanimator 0-2
R4: UR Delver 1-2
R5: UB Reanimator 2-1

League 2: 4-1
R1: ? 2-0 (opponent punted by not paying for Chancellor G2 and conceded)
R2: Grixis Delver 0-2
R3: TinFins 2-1
R4: ANT 2-0
R5: TES 2-1
7-3 on the night. Added to the four 5-0s, three previous 3-2s, and one sad 0-3 drop, that makes:

36 wins
12 losses
75% win rate

[Venomous72]

Had a great time streaming this evening.

League 1: 3-2
R1: Manaless Dredge 2-0
R2: Elves 2-0
R3: BR Reanimator 0-2
R4: UR Delver 1-2
R5: UB Reanimator 2-1

League 2: 4-1
R1: ? 2-0 (opponent punted by not paying for Chancellor G2 and conceded)
R2: Grixis Delver 0-2
R3: TinFins 2-1
R4: ANT 2-0
R5: TES 2-1
7-3 on the night. Added to the four 5-0s, three previous 3-2s, and one sad 0-3 drop, that makes:

36 wins
12 losses
75% win rate

Awesome work man. I'm glad to see you back on the deck. I think BR is having a resurgence so we will likely see an uptick in hate. I look forward to seeing how you adapt to it. If we start seeing Macabre and more Surgicals, what adjustments do you make? Do you move to a Show and Tell plan splashing blue?

[KnightJay96]

Won a Bayou at a 33 Person, 6 Round Tournament on the 8th of April with BR Reanimator
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15212&d=292318&f=LE
I decided to run DNSolver's List he had been 5-0 with in the past few days, but made some alterations to the sideboard. I was going to post this last week but I was waiting for the VODS to be posted on the stores YouTube page. But I want to get this out there before I forget anything and when the videos do get posted I’ll post them in the forum.

List:
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Griselbrand
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
4x Thoughtseize
4x Collective Brutality
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
4x Faithless Looting
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chorme Mox
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
2x Badlands
1x Bayou

SB:
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Reverent Silence
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Children of Korlis
1x Archetype of Endurance
1x Grave Titan
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Rnd 1: Belcher (2-0)

Game 1: Had Chancellor in hand, got a Griselbrand out on turn 1 or 2.

Game 2: Had Chancellor in hand, on turn 1 he got 12 goblins from storming off. I entombed and reanimated a Elesh Norn on turn 1. He conceded shortly after.

Rnd 2: Goblins (2-1)

This was against steve2112rush a good mate of mine, and one of the best goblins players ever.

Game 1: He keeps a hand with no red source but Aether vials. I Thoughtseize him and take vial, which leaves him on top decks for a red source. I later reanimate a creature, that's all she wrote.

Game 2: I Thoughtseize him on turn 1, see no surgical extraction or graveyard interaction. I attempt to reanimate a Elesh Norn the next turn which gets promptly Surgically extracted and I get beaten down by goblins.

Game 3: I had a turn 1 in hand but didn't do it because I had no idea what was in hand, he joked about having Mindbreak trap, which put the fear in me and I passed the turn after playing 2 lotus petals and a Thoughtseize (admittedly everyone in the room had a good laugh and I should have just gone for it, but the laughs in the room was worth it). I later faithless looting put a chancellor and Griselbrand into play. I then dark ritual into an animate dead targeting the chancellor, which my mate surgically extracts. I then reanimate the Griselbrand. I thought about it afterwards and I should have used the reanimate on the chancellor then used the animate dead on the Griselbrand because I was getting beaten down by goblins and the extra life would have been good to be able to draw cards. My mate passes to me rather than attacking with a very big pile driver. At the time, I had enough life to draw cards but I would have had to block his pile driver to not die, but still live after drawing 7 cards if I blocked. With that not happening, I decided to draw my 7 cards because I didn't want to give him the out next turn and hopefully I would find something to help me. I could draw an entomb and animate dead, which I proceeded to find an Elesh Norn. GG WP Steve <3

Rnd 3: Mirror (2-1)

Game 1: I have the turn 1 Dark Ritual > Entomb > Exhume. I get a Griselbrand but as I was getting a creature I was thinking that this guy might have been on BR as well but decided not to get the Iona, I decide not to draw cards and pass because I didn't know what he was on. On his turn, he goes Bloodstained Mire, into lotus petal, cracking the lotus to Dark Ritual > Entomb (Griselbrand) > Exhume. He draws 7 cards and passes the turn. I then draw 14 cards on EOT, and find entomb, free mana and reanimation spells. I get a Tidespout tyrant out and proceed to bounce all his permanents.

Game 2: He goes Dark Ritual > Entomb (Iona) > Exhume. G3 boys and girls

Game 3: I have chancellor of the annex with only one land in hand. I have entomb with 2 fatties in hand, a faithless looting and animate dead. I decided to EOT an entomb on his turn, just in case he had some sort of exhume play. He plays a faithless looting to get rid of the chancellor trigger. I EOT fire off the entomb to get Iona, and get lucky by drawing a reanimate off the top.

In hindsight given I had the faithless looting in hand and a chancellor trigger, I should have just gone with the faithless looting because unless he had exactly a way to burn the chancellor and reanimate my creatures in the graveyard, plus seeing 2 more cards may have yielded a potential win of the 1st turn or a win on the following turn. The line I took had an out of 47.05% of getting a needed card (10 land, 4 lotus, 2 Chorme Mox, 4 Darkritual, 4 Reanmiate. 24/51) to win the game. Which line do you think was better drawing more cards on the first turn or EOT the entomb?

Rnd 4: Sultai Dark Depths (2-0)

Game 1: Turn 2 or 3 him I think? TBH can't remember too much.

Game 2: He leads with underground sea. I keep a turn 1 with 3 land, thought seize, Griselbrand, lotus petal and a reanimate. I draw a land, go land, thought seize me, remove Griselbrand, lotus petal. He flusters storms me. He plays a tap land or something and passes, I rip an exhume off the top and he has no interaction for it. Which prompts a concession.

Rnd 5: Burn (ID)

I lent my burn deck to my friend's mate and just so happen to verse him in this round. I know the list because I built it the previous night, it has no graveyard interaction (only ensnaring bridge and some pyrostatic pillers) as I was thinking there was going to be more non-graveyard combo decks at the tournament. It's his first legacy tournament, so rather than bashing for real and securing a 1st position in the top 8 for myself we decide to ID. But we decide to play some games.

Game 1: Turn 1 Dark Ritual > Entomb (Iona) > Exhume. Got to love the mainboard Iona.

Game 2: He has a fast start through a chancellor and eventually I exhume a griselbrand but he gets a ensnaring bridge the following turn.

Game 3: Turn 1 Dark Ritual > Entomb (Iona) > Exhume. Gotta love the mainboard Iona.

Rnd 6: Miracles (ID)

End up 4-0-2, 2nd after the Swiss.

Quarter Final: Phil on Lands (2-0)
This one was against a good mate, who always plays lands and is very good with the deck.

Game 1: He cleared my graveyard with a Bojuka Bog - Crop rotation after I forced his hand with a collective brutality. From there I faithless looting and drew some creatures to put in the bin I could exhume a Tidespout tyrant. I proceeded to beat him down with it until he drew a Maze of Ith, but luckily I had spells in hand so I could keep bouncing the maze. And the 5/5 gets there.

Game 2: I keep a relatively slow hand with an abrupt decay in it, Phil mulls to six. I Thoughtseize him on turn 1 and see exploration, crop rotation, port, wasteland, 2 sphere of resistance. Seeing no green source, I decide to take the sphere of resistance and hedge on him not having a green source. I play a bloodstained mire, and pass the turn not being able to do much. He plays the sphere on his turn, I play a bayou from hand and use abrupt decay. From there he both end up on top decking, he eventually finds his green source and starts playing 2 lands a turn. Eventually I top deck into an entomb, get a Griselbrand exhumed draw 7 putting me down to 9, I fetch to 8, then reanimate a grave titan, putting me down to 2. As soon as I did this I was sweating because what if he had the punishing fire I would lose, but fortunately he didn't and started swinging hard.

Semi Final: Eldrazi (2-0) (On Camera) (Link to be Updated)

Game 1: Even though I was on the play, I was still super nervous. Chalice on 1 would be a serious threat against me. I draw my 7. Chrome mox, 2 land, Thoughtseize, Lotus Petal, Griselbrand & reanimate. I turn 1 Griselbrand. Leaving me at 10 life. My opponent plays an ancient tomb and plays a phyrxian revocker. Knowing it will be put on griselbrand I draw 7 cards, putting me down to 3. In my hand, I draw 2 chancellors and a collective brutality. He follows it up with a chalice on 0 which was slightly annoying because I had a chrome mox in hand, but wasn’t a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. Next turn I used all the modes on collective brutality and swung with my griselbrand. The following turn I believe he conceded.

Game 2: We both mull down to 6. I keep a slow hand but it has an abrupt decay for his chalice but no reverent silence if he has the leyline. Thankfully he does not put into play a leyline nor a chalice he just plays some mimics. I eventually get a Griselbrand out on turn 2 or 3, but he plays thoughtknots and reality smashers so I can’t attack. On his end step draw a bunch of cards and proceed to get a tidespout into play and bounce all his land on my turn.

Grand Final: Burn (2-0) (On Camera) (Link to be Updated)

Game 1: I get a Griselbrand out on turn 3 thanks to collective brutality on his turn 2. Then a Iona I think.

Game 2: I have faithless looting and bunch of reanimation spells, lotus petal. No Iona in the creatures in hand but what I have is still good. Play out my petals and play my bloodstained mire, not wanting to faithless looting as I have no idea what graveyard interaction he has. He plays a relic of progenitis which I fetch EOT for a badlands. Next turn I top deck an entomb and go for a iona, then reanimate. A concession follows

To be honest I think I got lucky not seeing any deck with counter spells in it. There were times where I felt unmask would have been better as a means of checking my opponent's hand to see if they had counterspells and there were times collective brutality in the main was insane, killing my opponent's creatures. I unfortunately(fortunately?) didn't verse a DRS deck to see the power of collective in the main. It would be nice testing maybe some combination of 3-3-2 Thoughtseize, Unmask, Collective. Though finding which combination is the correct needs far more testing and will depend on the meta.

So that’s my report, hope you guys and girls enjoyed it. I apologise if there are some weird sounding lines. Its been a while since the event and my memory of it is slightly hazy

[KnightJay96]

I wrote about Black Red Reanimator on The Salt Mine Site. Check it out! :smile:

https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/04/17/griseldicking-people-a-guide-on-how-to-make-others-hate-you/

[DNSolver]

You have a "what's the play" scenario in your tournament report that isn't quite accurate with percentages. Whenever multiple draws out of the deck are possible (such as in this case, with Faithless Looting), your percentage is not a straight computation of hits/total. You need something called a hypergeometric distribution calculator, which I linked to in the primer.

You calculated a 47% chance of hitting on the Looting. In actuality it is 70.5%.

53 card sample
24 hits in sample
sample size: 2
# of hits necessary: 1

Percentage to hit 1 or more: 70.5%
Percentage to hit exactly 1: 50.5%

Edit: Only me would forget to say: congratulations on your finish!

[KnightJay96]

Edit: Only me would forget to say: congratulations on your finish!

Thanks man. I'm omw to making Turbo Depths with the 3rd Bayou.


You have a "what's the play" scenario in your tournament report that isn't quite accurate with percentages. Whenever multiple draws out of the deck are possible (such as in this case, with Faithless Looting), your percentage is not a straight computation of hits/total. You need something called a hypergeometric distribution calculator, which I linked to in the primer.

You calculated a 47% chance of hitting on the Looting. In actuality it is 70.5%.

53 card sample
24 hits in sample
sample size: 2
# of hits necessary: 1

Percentage to hit 1 or more: 70.5%
Percentage to hit exactly 1: 50.5%


TBH math isn't a huge strong suit of mine (or at least likelihood math), so at least I got someone to correct me on that and make my play look better than I did :cool:

[splorf]

Wizards just destroyed Miracles...

What stops this pile now?

[Jeff]

Wizards just destroyed Miracles...

What stops this pile now?

The same stuff that always stopped it: Infinite postboard graveyard hate.

This probably also means a net increase in Deathrite Shaman + Daze decks, which doesn't seem good for us.

[Atherion]

grixis delver, plus other deathrite + daze + FOW strategies

[Kobra_D]

The same stuff that always stopped it: Infinite postboard graveyard hate.

This probably also means a net increase in Deathrite Shaman + Daze decks, which doesn't seem good for us.

Agreed. Plus now that sideboard slots open up without having to deal with miracles (20% of the meta) it is likely to get filled with combo/grave hate.

[splorf]

Yeah, good points. DRS increase will likely happen. But that's probably the next thing which gets the axe. I'm curious how the meta will shift.

[Zooligan]

So if GY hate increases, do we give up trying to fight it and instead go around it with Sneak Attack or Stronghold Gambit or SnT or something?

[JaiAlai]

Hi guys. New to writing but I wear some time reading and learning from this thread. Specially thanks to DNSolver, keep writing and recording videos man!

My english sucks, sorry.

Now some questions:

Without Miracles is a good moment to run 4 Sire of Insanity maindeck? I love Sire and the posibility of a turn one "win". It's time to leave out Archetype of Endurance? Maindeck Elesh Norm?

[Atherion]

Hi guys. New to writing but I wear some time reading and learning from this thread. Specially thanks to DNSolver, keep writing and recording videos man!

My english sucks, sorry.

Now some questions:

Without Miracles is a good moment to run 4 Sire of Insanity maindeck? I love Sire and the posibility of a turn one "win". It's time to leave out Archetype of Endurance? Maindeck Elesh Norm?

I don't run Sire at all, never missed him really. You definitely don't want 4 MD, 4 Grisel is good enough and you will need those chancellors with so many DRS running around. MDing Elesh or Iona is ok, I got Iona for the mirror. Elesh only really shines against dredge, which is a fringe deck anyway. For elves, either is good enough.

[DNSolver]

Here we go on Sire of Insanity again.

On the draw, Sire of Insanity is awful. In some cases, you will just look silly. Here are some turn 1 plays that make Sire look bad on the draw:

Mother of Runes (blocks forever, eventually finds Plow and you die)
White source, pass, swords
Land, dismember it
Maze of Ith or any other Lands opening
Mox Diamond into almost any good 2-drop
Aether Vial into blockers into eventually a really good blocker or removal
Deathrite into topdecked 2-drop

Some 2-drops that are good: Baleful Strix, Tarmogoyf, Decay (if Animate Dead).

So, you are never going to Entomb Sire of Insanity except against Storm or Sneak and Show, which are already great matchups that you can win with Griselbrand + draw 14 + discard spells or Iona. So why have it instead of Tidespout (which changes some matchups drastically) or Iona (which locks people out) or Chancellor (which is ridiculous, might still be ridiculous post-ban).

Edit: Looks like someone got here before me too :D Just to repeat, Griselbrand is better than Sire. Sire doesn't instantly win as many concernable matchups as Tidespout or Iona and doesn't help you get *a* creature out like Chancellor.

[JaiAlai]

Thanks for the answers guys!

[ShiftedClock]

I'm a Modern specialist trying to understand Legacy better. I have three questions that I'd appreciate a more experienced player's perspective on.

1) If Blood Moon decks get better post-Top, does that make a SSG build with Blood Moon sideboard more viable? i.e. does it make sense for BR Reanimator to attack on the same axis?

2) With the hard lock gone, the chance to combo out again in the mid-game becomes more relevant. Does Burning Wish become more desirable to increase consistency and the chance to rebuild with 1 Buried Alive + 1 Exhume as Wish targets?

This may be too slow and durdly, because we can often beat a turn 1 DRS through sheer speed. The best anti-DRS​ BW targets are Cave-In and Flameshot, neither of which are awesome.

3) Or does UB become better again, as people find more room for SB hate with Miracles gone?

My thinking may be off​ the mark, I'd love to hear your thoughts. It took me about two years to really understand the dynamics of Modern's top decks, and Legacy is proving to be a whole new can of worms, so to speak. But I love brewing in Modern now, and I want to understand Legacy better so I can brew here too. Thanks.

[Kobra_D]

I'm a Modern specialist trying to understand Legacy better. I have three questions that I'd appreciate a more experienced player's perspective on.

1) If Blood Moon decks get better post-Top, does that make a SSG build with Blood Moon sideboard more viable? i.e. does it make sense for BR Reanimator to attack on the same axis?

2) With the hard lock gone, the chance to combo out again in the mid-game becomes more relevant. Does Burning Wish become more desirable to increase consistency and the chance to rebuild with 1 Buried Alive + 1 Exhume as Wish targets?

This may be too slow and durdly, because we can often beat a turn 1 DRS through sheer speed. The best anti-DRS​ BW targets are Cave-In and Flameshot, neither of which are awesome.

3) Or does UB become better again, as people find more room for SB hate with Miracles gone?

My thinking may be off​ the mark, I'd love to hear your thoughts. It took me about two years to really understand the dynamics of Modern's top decks, and Legacy is proving to be a whole new can of worms, so to speak. But I love brewing in Modern now, and I want to understand Legacy better so I can brew here too. Thanks.


1) Depends on why you're bringing in blood moon. If all the control decks become Czech pile, then it could help but there is probably some combination of creatures that is good here as well. If you want to stop big mana decks (12 post, monoR...) our fast threats tend to be enough if we can hit their leyline/chalice. Our game plan is to win through overly costed threats extremely early and that tends be be enough in these match ups.

2) Burning reanimator was fun but costly. Our combo takes several turns after our opponent knows what we are up to. They can leave up counterspell mana or active DRS's. It has been a thing historically, and could easily come back, but the best part of BR is the speed that we bring and a wish build slows us down by default.

3) UB vs RB is still an ongoing debate. Depends on play style a little bit, budget a little bit, how the meta shifts, things like that. I think a lot of people here have come to the conclusion that RB is their way to go (just as most of the people on the UB thread would say the opposite). But debating that I think is most relevant after the dust settles.

However, I will say that with miracles gone I am much more sold on the white sideboard plan. Green was good, and great against miracles, but white is good with the same type of hate and slimmer. So we can pack more protection against other combo decks or any other hate that rises up against us.

[KnightJay96]

Yeah, good points. DRS increase will likely happen. But that's probably the next thing which gets the axe. I'm curious how the meta will shift.

Joe Lossett gives a his impresssions on the changes

https://twitter.com/oarsman79

My thoughts:

1. As people mentioned DRS will be on the rise now as any bug/delver deck will now be top dog. DNSolver's tech of mainboard collective's may become the norm in response to the new BUG/delver meta.

2. Maindeck bloodmoon increase means a rise in decks that can power it out on turn 1 or 2, which means a rise in chalice decks (Mono Red Sneak Attack & Dragon Stompy). So we can't reduce our abrupt decays in the SB (or at least lets wait)

3. As people mentioned there are now less SB slots dedicated to Miracles, so they'll be used to hate on graveyard or combo decks.

[Jeff]

1) If Blood Moon decks get better post-Top, does that make a SSG build with Blood Moon sideboard more viable? i.e. does it make sense for BR Reanimator to attack on the same axis?

2) With the hard lock gone, the chance to combo out again in the mid-game becomes more relevant. Does Burning Wish become more desirable to increase consistency and the chance to rebuild with 1 Buried Alive + 1 Exhume as Wish targets?

This may be too slow and durdly, because we can often beat a turn 1 DRS through sheer speed. The best anti-DRS​ BW targets are Cave-In and Flameshot, neither of which are awesome.

3) Or does UB become better again, as people find more room for SB hate with Miracles gone?




My opinion may not match other's, but I'll give it a go.

1. I already liked Blood Moons in the board of this deck, but ONLY where attacking the mana was used to help us win the game. Primarily that meant against Lands (where we usually need to answer Karakas, Maze, and/or Tabernacle) and against Deathrite decks (where Blood Moon often locks them out of green). I didn't side it in against Eldrazi, for example, where it's usually a very good card, because it doesn't directly impact their hate and we still have to find a way to win. Put another way, I think of Blood Moon in our sideboard as an anti-hate piece, not a lock piece, since we aren't going to follow it up with threats the same way a Goblin Stompy deck might.

2. I think this is asking the wrong question. Come with me on a journey here. BR Reanimator and UB Reanimator are fundamentally different decks that attack different metagames. One is not better than the other in a core way, they're just better at different times because they have different strengths and weaknesses. Distilled to one word each, BR Reanimator is about speed and UB reanimator is about consistency. In a format where you have to beat Rest in Peace, Speed is more important. In my opinion this is why BR Reanimator took off when it did, because everyone was relying on slower but more thorough graveyard hate. In a format where the primary graveyard hate is Surgical or Faerie Macabre, BR loses a lot of it's value. And here's where we're back to your question: If we want to get more resilient and able to reload, what should we do? In my opinion, if you want to reload and be resilient, you should be playing blue, not adding slower and clunkier cards to red. That's not to say blue is better than red overall, just that it's better at that part of the game. I think reanimator players who aren't prepared to switch between the different builds based on a changing metagame do themselves a disservice. TL;DR: No, I wouldn't play Burning Wish.

3. Oh hey look, I kind of answered this one last time around. I think this remains to be seen. BUG Delver is a pretty bad matchup for all reanimator decks, so if that's the big winner from the top ban I'm not sure I'd sleeve up Reanimate at all. As the format shakes out we'll see if it provides more openings for speed or consistency, and go from there.

[Nysrol]

1) If Blood Moon decks get better post-Top, does that make a SSG build with Blood Moon sideboard more viable? i.e. does it make sense for BR Reanimator to attack on the same axis?

2) With the hard lock gone, the chance to combo out again in the mid-game becomes more relevant. Does Burning Wish become more desirable to increase consistency and the chance to rebuild with 1 Buried Alive + 1 Exhume as Wish targets?

This may be too slow and durdly, because we can often beat a turn 1 DRS through sheer speed. The best anti-DRS​ BW targets are Cave-In and Flameshot, neither of which are awesome.

3) Or does UB become better again, as people find more room for SB hate with Miracles gone?


1. Blood moon is good but it isn't what we are trying to do, we want to resolve a fatty not be on the long game plan.

2. I tried burning wish, it has play but its a lot of hope for little pay off. I would much rather cut Sire, add children and tendrils to the main. If i continue to main this deck that will be my going plan, I want to make sure when grisslebrand hits i win on the spot.

3. Debate as mention above works as discussed

My main change to the main board is with the uptick in creature decks, mainly to run Collective Brutality in the main to kill DRS... but I am thinking i will jsut play burn until the meta shifts and we see what hate becomes common.

[hovercraft]

1. Blood moon is good but it isn't what we are trying to do, we want to resolve a fatty not be on the long game plan.

2. I tried burning wish, it has play but its a lot of hope for little pay off. I would much rather cut Sire, add children and tendrils to the main. If i continue to main this deck that will be my going plan, I want to make sure when grisslebrand hits i win on the spot.

3. Debate as mention above works as discussed

My main change to the main board is with the uptick in creature decks, mainly to run Collective Brutality in the main to kill DRS... but I am thinking i will jsut play burn until the meta shifts and we see what hate becomes common.


Collective Brutality is great. I like 2 main and play one in my Wish board. I play Burning Reanimator with LEDs that can storm out and have Tendrils in the wish board. I had been looking for a good sorcery for pitching creatures to grave yard in the Wish board but still provide other value. Will be interesting to see how much GY hate will come out if people are afraid of DRS bug decks, but I think having a storm-out option will be the way to go for some resiliency. Can still run Stronghold Gambit in the wish board, and Sneak in the side too.

[ShiftedClock]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Maindeck Collective Brutality over Unmask seems appealing in a DRS-heavy meta, which could be even better if Stoneforge decks become more prevalent.


My opinion may not match other's, but I'll give it a go.

1. I already liked Blood Moons in the board of this deck, but ONLY where attacking the mana was used to help us win the game. Primarily that meant against Lands (where we usually need to answer Karakas, Maze, and/or Tabernacle) and against Deathrite decks (where Blood Moon often locks them out of green). I didn't side it in against Eldrazi, for example, where it's usually a very good card, because it doesn't directly impact their hate and we still have to find a way to win. Put another way, I think of Blood Moon in our sideboard as an anti-hate piece, not a lock piece, since we aren't going to follow it up with threats the same way a Goblin Stompy deck might.

2. I think this is asking the wrong question. Come with me on a journey here. BR Reanimator and UB Reanimator are fundamentally different decks that attack different metagames. One is not better than the other in a core way, they're just better at different times because they have different strengths and weaknesses. Distilled to one word each, BR Reanimator is about speed and UB reanimator is about consistency. In a format where you have to beat Rest in Peace, Speed is more important. In my opinion this is why BR Reanimator took off when it did, because everyone was relying on slower but more thorough graveyard hate. In a format where the primary graveyard hate is Surgical or Faerie Macabre, BR loses a lot of it's value. And here's where we're back to your question: If we want to get more resilient and able to reload, what should we do? In my opinion, if you want to reload and be resilient, you should be playing blue, not adding slower and clunkier cards to red. That's not to say blue is better than red overall, just that it's better at that part of the game. I think reanimator players who aren't prepared to switch between the different builds based on a changing metagame do themselves a disservice. TL;DR: No, I wouldn't play Burning Wish.

3. Oh hey look, I kind of answered this one last time around. I think this remains to be seen. BUG Delver is a pretty bad matchup for all reanimator decks, so if that's the big winner from the top ban I'm not sure I'd sleeve up Reanimate at all. As the format shakes out we'll see if it provides more openings for speed or consistency, and go from there.

So is Blood Moon a sufficient enough answer to DRS for us to forego Abrupt Decay in the board? If there's an uptick in Rest in Peace then Abrupt Decay retains it's value.

That point #2 was fantastic. Exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for, thank you. I'll keep an eye out for a cheap Underground Sea.

[Jeff]

So is Blood Moon a sufficient enough answer to DRS for us to forego Abrupt Decay in the board? If there's an uptick in Rest in Peace then Abrupt Decay retains it's value.

I'm still a little undecided on this. I've had it be amazing, but I've also had it be terrible. I've lost to double deathrite after I resolved a blood moon. I've lost to not getting 3 mana for blood moon. I've lost to my 3 mana blood moon get dazed or pierced. On the other hand, I've had it completely win me the game in a way no other card would, so . . . yeah. I'll be honest I kind of stepped away from this deck because of the prevalence of Surgical in basically everything, so I never really came to a complete decision on what was best. I never did like boarding in Decay vs deathrite because those decks are also wasteland decks and having to fetch up green mana was always rough, but on the other hand uncounterable answers are neat.

[QUOTE=ShiftedClock;1003173]That point #2 was fantastic. Exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for, thank you. I'll keep an eye out for a cheap Underground Sea.

You're welcome :) Glad I could help. For what it's worth my tournament report from GP Lousiville (http://delifscube.blogspot.com/2017/01/tournament-report-gp-louisville-with-br.html) is available, as well as the Sideboard Guide (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PvpaIs9O63TQ94fuBGuDD-Cr_D9REzB3j7C6JRvB4bM/edit?usp=sharing) I was using. I never did test monoblack much as I mention in the article because I didn't have Unmasks and Lilianas online and they were pretty vital. Tested a little on paper and liked it but didn't test enough to draw conclusions. BR and UB are probably just better.

[DarkCrylis]

This is the list I've been running post ban and has done pretty decently (4-0, 3-1, 3-1) in some local FNM style events with Elves, DNT, Omnitel, Delver, 4c Control being the bigger showings.

Creatures:11
1 Sire of Insanity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Spells:37
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Animate Dead
4 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume

Lands:12
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp

Sideboard:15
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Grave Titan
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Blazing Archon
2 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Reverent Silence

[JaiAlai]

This is the list I've been running post ban and has done pretty decently (4-0, 3-1, 3-1) in some local FNM style events with Elves, DNT, Omnitel, Delver, 4c Control being the bigger showings.

Creatures:11
1 Sire of Insanity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Spells:37
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Animate Dead
4 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume

Lands:12
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp

Sideboard:15
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Grave Titan
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Blazing Archon
2 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Reverent Silence

Keranos against what?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So why the lack of unmask? I thought they would be better than thoughtseize now because Combo and Delver are more prevalent now than they were.

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[DarkCrylis]

So why the lack of unmask? I thought they would be better than thoughtseize now because Combo and Delver are more prevalent now than they were.

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Sorry I thought that was the updated list I run, the list I ran had a 2/2 split between the brutality and the unmasks. Might try the removal of thoughtseize, then just run the unmasks and brutality but not sure yet.

[DarkCrylis]

Keranos against what?

DNT mostly, gets around containment priest game 2. Also works against delver and some other things

[JaiAlai]

This deck made top-8 at the MKM series of Frankfurt. 437 players.
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2017-legacy

Walter Wölfler- Reanimator
Main Deck:

4 Griselbrand
4 Chancelor of the Annex
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
4 Collective Brutality
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Chrome Mox
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine

Sideboard:

4 Wear // Tear
3 Blood Moon
4 Stronghold Gambit
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan

[HansoRaptor]

Very good list. I like the inclusion of only one Chrome Mox, as opposed to two or zero. What I don't like is the mainboard Iona. I would rather play the Grave Titan in her place as I feel like there is too much BUG and Karakas around. The choice of Stronghold Gambit in the Sideboard makes sense with the return of Storm and Lands. I just can't bring myself to replace my Unmasks with Collective Brutalities, I just love them way too much.

I was also playing in the Legacy mainevent of the MKM Series and finished with a rather disappointing (but expected) finish of 5 - 5. I felt like the meta was really hostile. I saw in many decks multiple Flusterstorms, Containment Priests, Surgicals, Cages, Relics, and of Course Deathrite Shamans. I saw literally every hate possible and sometimes multiple in a single starting hand game 2 and 3 (The best was Affinity G3 with 2 Surgicals, 1 Cage and 1 Relic :laugh:). Well I guess for some that was not a problem, as we can see in this Top 8 finish.

Lost to:
- Affinity (0:2)
- BUG Delver (1:2)
- Grixis Delver (1:2)
- Back to Basics UW Control? (1:2)
- Burn (0:2)

Won against
- Mono B Reanimator (2:1)
- UB Reanimator (2:0)
- BUG Control (2:0)
- Death & Taxes (2:1)
- Death & Taxes (2:0)

[marshalltj]

Writeup from the 2nd place at MKM series: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/68zttf/2nd_at_mkm_frankfurt_with_br_reanimator/

[Darkness]

I am interested in buying into the deck as I just recently sold my Grixis Delver and Eldrazi cards for cash I needed. I like how cheap and power the deck is. Since SDT banning is the Green version or the White version of the deck better now? I would assume that White works well with wear and tear to hit chalice on 1. What is the communities suggestion on buying into this deck and the color post top banning. I used to play UB reanimator when stone blade ran king so I am familiar with play style, though I do understand that BR plays differently than UB.

[Scott]

Writeup from the 2nd place at MKM series: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/68zttf/2nd_at_mkm_frankfurt_with_br_reanimator/


A super sweet list including Sandwurm Convergence, stomped it pretty handily though. Highlights include casting Collective Brutality on Veteran Explorer game one with both swamps still left in my library, ramping myself before reanimating Griselbrand and reanimating an Eternal Witness G2 to get back Exhume and getting my opponent's only creature out of his GY.

Brutal reading for Nic Fit players.

[DNSolver]

I want to preserve this screenshot on this website.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-8m_CuUAAAR7dO.jpg

Just got a 5-0 with my same list. 6 turn 1s, 2 game losses.

R1: Storm
R2: BUG Delver
R3: Doomsday
R4: Eldrazi Ramp/12post
R5: Grixis Delver

[tarmogoat]

Just got a 5-0 with my same list. 6 turn 1s, 2 game losses.


Is it this one?

4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Griselbrand
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
4x Thoughtseize
4x Collective Brutality
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
4x Faithless Looting
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chorme Mox
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
2x Badlands
1x Bayou

SB:
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Reverent Silence
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Children of Korlis
1x Archetype of Endurance
1x Grave Titan
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite


Is the green splash with Decay and Silence better than the white splash for Wear // Tear? It consumes more slots. I play BR with white splash in paper and I'm absolutely stoked on Wear // Tear.

[DNSolver]

Is it this one?

[...]

Is the green splash with Decay and Silence better than the white splash for Wear // Tear? It consumes more slots. I play BR with white splash in paper and I'm absolutely stoked on Wear // Tear.

4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Griselbrand
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
4x Thoughtseize
4x Collective Brutality
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
4x Faithless Looting
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chorme Mox
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Badlands
1x Bayou

SB:
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Reverent Silence
4x Faerie Macabre
1x Children of Korlis
1x Archetype of Endurance
1x Duress

Fixed.

The worst matchup for the deck is Grixis Delver, and Decay + Collective Brutality is where you want to be in that matchup, I think. I guess if you're worried about Stompy decks with Leyline Wear/Tear might be a better choice, but I've been able to win without it. Besides, Wear/Tear doesn't do anything vs Faerie Macabre while Decay will always hit something in every deck.

[ckross01]

4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Griselbrand
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
4x Thoughtseize
4x Collective Brutality
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
4x Faithless Looting
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chorme Mox
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Badlands
1x Bayou

SB:
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Reverent Silence
4x Faerie Macabre
1x Children of Korlis
1x Archetype of Endurance
1x Duress

Fixed.

The worst matchup for the deck is Grixis Delver, and Decay + Collective Brutality is where you want to be in that matchup, I think. I guess if you're worried about Stompy decks with Leyline Wear/Tear might be a better choice, but I've been able to win without it. Besides, Wear/Tear doesn't do anything vs Faerie Macabre while Decay will always hit something in every deck.

What are you side boarding out agaisnt Grixis Delver? I assume you are pulling in 4 Abrupt.

[DNSolver]

Vs Grixis Delver:

-1 Iona (doesn't race well like Tidespout or Griselbrand, doesn't daze everything and protect turn 1s like Chancellor)
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Dark Ritual

+3 Abrupt Decay

If you see Grafdigger's Cage / Tormod's, bring in 4th Decay over another fast mana. 4th Decay is mainly for Chalice decks

[Slick752]

Hello everyone, guys.
I have a question:
Against whom B/R reanimator wants to put Sire of Insanity first?
In my opinion Lands... yet ?

[Luca Grease]

Hello everyone, guys.
I have a question:
Against whom B/R reanimator wants to put Sire of Insanity first?
In my opinion Lands... yet ?

Definitely most non-graveyard combo decks such as ANT and Show and Tell

[Slick752]

Definitely most non-graveyard combo decks such as ANT and Show and Tell
But ANT can topdeck PiF and goin' to combo, no ?
I think Sire of Insanity is the worst creature against ANT.
Although... ANT will have very little chance of such a scenario. Thank you!

[Luca Grease]

But ANT can topdeck PiF and goin' to combo, no ?
I think Sire of Insanity is the worst creature against ANT.
Although... ANT will have very little chance of such a scenario. Thank you!

Considering Sire is a 3-4 turn clock, it would require a very specific sequence of draws for them to be able to combo off through Pif if you reanimate it on turns 1-2 (which is what you should always go for, really).

Griselbrand would usually be good enough for the UB version, but since we don't play Force of Will it's quite possible that our discard off the draw 7 isn't fast enough, giving them a window turn to combo off.

Iona on black has historically been the go-to trump target against ANT, but it allows them a clean out in Chain of Vapor, which they will be free to cantrip for.

Since I believe that it's much more likely for them to have or cantrip into a Chain then to draw exactly Led-Led-Pif (or a similar combination), I'd argue that Sire of Insanity is actually the best creature against ANT.

That said, most of our targets (including Chancellor) are probably going to be good enough as long as we combo off in the first 2 turns, and the same can be said for the Show and Tell matchup, so I can understand people deeming Sire not worthy of being played. Me personally, I believe it's too fun not to sleeve up...

[DNSolver]

Sire of Insanity against LANDS? You lose to Maze, land land Loam, land chasm? Land Crop Rotation? Sire is *awful* against Lands, even on the play. When you have an Entomb G1, you almost always get Griselbrand (unless you already have one in the yard).

Against Storm, Griselbrand -> discard spells is best vs both versions. Then, against ANT Iona on black should be a lock G1. Against TES Sire would probably be my second-highest priority or second creature after Griselbrand. You guys who are getting Iona or Sire first need to read Griselbrand a few more times. Chancellor is a fine option to get after Griselbrand also, might be a better bet post-board.

Against Show and Tell, Griselbrand -> discard spells is best, followed by Tidespout Tyrant, then probably Iona on blue to beat Omniscience shenanigans. If you have Sire, it's fine turn 1 but after that they can topdeck out of it with Sneak Attack -> creature.

tl;dr don't run Sire, always get Griselbrand with Entomb

[Luca Grease]

Against Storm, Griselbrand -> discard spells is best vs both versions. Then, against ANT Iona on black should be a lock G1. Against TES Sire would probably be my second-highest priority or second creature after Griselbrand. You guys who are getting Iona or Sire first need to read Griselbrand a few more times.

A

If maindeck brutality over Unmask becomes the norm, then you'll need to draw both petal/mox AND a Thoughtseize to disrupt them immediately after an early reanimation. Chances are you'll win the game anyway but Sire will almost always give them fewer outs, and standard ANT lists have exactly 0 outs to Iona in G1. Arguing that the situations where Sire is better than other targets are too few and far between to justify its inclusion is one thing, but denying that those situations exist tells me you are the one who needs to do some extra reading or thinking on cards.

With that said, Sire IS pretty bad against Lands.

[tarmogoat]

In my opinion Sire is a win more threat. Being able to Put a Griselbrand early and the next turn follow up with a Tidespout into bounce all -> Sire is a lock from which nobody can recover. But you had already won 9/10 times by just getting Griselbrand out, and 9.99/10 if followed up by Tidespout (or Iona). Sire is just the cherry on top, but it's not worth the trouble of going through the motion of a T1/2 reanimation as the all-in answer-me-or-die threat, Griselbrand will always be that threat. Also, against most decks Chancellor is better at preventing opponents from playing the game than Sire, mainly because it doesn't make you discard the cards that will get you more reanimation/disruption action while beating the same clock in the air.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm trying to figure out if I should play this or DnT for Vegas. How do you guys feel against the main lists, e.g. grixis and bug Delver, the mirror, SnT? I'm guessing things like food chain and aluren are fairly good matchups.

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[DNSolver]

The best strategy against this deck right now is Daze + FoW + Surgical (out of the board) + DRS + pressure. Delver decks fill that role. That being said, I don't think you give up the matchup; I've managed to win my share of games with Chancellor + combo on the play, or having discard plus decay or collective brutality to deal with two things. Definitely a winnable matchup because if you deal with DRS or Surgical, the rest of your deck is set up to beat soft counters (fast mana) and even Force (with plenty of redundancy).

[TheStalk]

Against Storm, Griselbrand -> discard spells is best vs both versions. Then, against ANT Iona on black should be a lock G1. Against TES Sire would probably be my second-highest priority or second creature after Griselbrand. You guys who are getting Iona or Sire first need to read Griselbrand a few more times. Chancellor is a fine option to get after Griselbrand also, might be a better bet post-board.


Not replying for you specifically, but wanted to address Iona vs. ANT - In my testing I've found that post-board Iona on blue might be better. While it doesn't lock out their win con, it prevents them from removing Iona from the battlefield, and although it is probably technically possible for them to go off with black spells only (I don't play ANT so I'm not 100% on the math here), the odds of them assembling a such a kill with no access to cantrips while getting clocked for 7 a turn in the air seems highly improbable.

[Ingo]

The maindeck discard seems to have become Collective Brutality + Thoughtseize. I've been run CB + Unmask though, and like to hear from others why they prefer maindeck Thoughtseize over Unmask.

[foukas]

The maindeck discard seems to have become Collective Brutality + Thoughtseize. I've been run CB + Unmask though, and like to hear from others why they prefer maindeck Thoughtseize over Unmask.

From my point of view there are four choices:
1) Collective Brutality (CB) + Thoughtseize (TS)
Better against DRS or when you don't draw Entomb/Faithless to discard fatties.

2) CB + Unmask (UM)
Allows creature disruption and better draw 7s from Griselbrand.

3) TS + UM
I like this because it's the fastest possible configuration and the deck NEEDS to be fast. Consumes precious sb slots though because you need CB against some matchups.

4) Mix (e.g. 3TS, 3UM, 2CB)
This is what I'm testing now. I want the speed but also don't want to get randomly wrecked by DRS and Strix.

To answer your question, I think Thoughtseize is a better choice for game 2/3 since you can't just blindly go off T1 for fear of Extraction and just leading with T1 Land-Thoughtseize assures that you get rid of annoying hate first without losing cards for Unmask.

[Slick752]

1)What do you think about 2-3 Pyroblasts post-side against Chain of Vapor (ANT) and Daze/FoW (delver deck) ?
2)Is Sire of Insanity bad against infect ?

[Zooligan]

What's the plan against Sneak-n-Show other than "be faster"?

[jroharo]

What's the plan against Sneak-n-Show other than "be faster"?

Also can just keep a fatty in hand. Blazing Archon in the board is wonderful for this matchup.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is archon better than Ashen Rider?

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[Zooligan]

Also can just keep a fatty in hand.

Our fatties < big Emrakul


Blazing Archon in the board is wonderful for this matchup.

Yeah, not too bad against Eldrazi and Big Red either.

[marshalltj]

Our fatties < big Emrakul

If you are able to keep a griselbrand or tidespout in hand (But don't make that your only plan) that will usually beat Emmy unless they're on omniscience. It's a really good matchup for us in general though. We're faster than them, our discard can take their fatties and we can reanimate, and if they S&T it can put us in a winning position.

[Basedx]

I played BR Reanimator today at my local, and thought i would write up a bit about it or at least inform people how it went. The event was small so only 3 rounds and me and my opponent ID'd last round as we were both 2-0 but we played it out for fun and i beat him so i'll include. I used this (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/640363#paper) list based off of one that appeared at an SCG top 8 or 16 in the past several months. I enjoy the maindeck Iona and changed some SB targets. I switched out the 4th Griselbrand in the board and an Inkwell Leviathan for the Keranos and Archetype of Endurance. Archetype gives more reach in the games that we really want it in and Keranos gives us outs to odd creatures and of course to get around Containment Priest. I know a lot of Karakas decks had the possibility of floating around here and some D&T. I also like the versatility of the white splash over the green.

R1 Jund 2-0

First match was short and sweet. Turn 1 Griselbrand got me there very quickly. Game 2 was a turn 2 Grisel and i believe next turn i got an Iona out while i was just trying to fade burn spells and any of his other outs.

R2 MUD 2-0

Turn 1 Grisel into turn 2 Sire got this one over quickly. G2 was a bit harder. He went turn 1 Chalice on 0 paying with City of Traitors for a Chancellor trigger. My first turn i went Thoughtsieze revealing Trinisphere, Lodestone, Kuldotha Forgemaster plus lands. Safe to say i took the Trinisphere. His next turn he goes Cloudpost destroying his City, pass. My turn 2 I unmasked and thoughtsiezed him again ripping out the rest of his action. He goes Vesuva copying cloudpost. I untap, and faithless looting into Dark Ritual + 2 mana reanimation spell which snowballs from a Grisel into a Tidespout Tyrant to bounce both of his lands with a Lotus Petal + Unmask leading to a concession.

R3 Food Chain ID (2-1)

So while we ID'd we decided why not play regardless. G1 was a turn 1 Griselbrand on the play through 2 Forces. Don't exactly remember what my plays were but it involved an Unmask, Dark Ritual and a Thoughtsieze. G2 i kept a dicey hand with 2 Petals, a Faithless Looting, and reanimation + targets. I figure this seems good enough on the play with a Faithless if we don't draw like udder shit, and since we weren't playing for tourney i decided to go for it. Basically i never drew into anything relevant and lost to the combo. G3 was a very long and grindy game in which i only barely squeaked it out with a Keranos on board while i was at 7 with my opponent having 2 Baleful Strixes, a summoning sick Deathrite, and 2 Misthollow Griffens on board. I end of turn Wear//Tear a strix, kill another off of the Keranos trigger, and get a Griselbrand out that turn. My opponent was at a low enough life total to die in 2 turns without drawing any relevance and having to chump. The funny part was having the Keranos out for around 5 turns prior to the above board state and getting lands 4/5 triggers until then.

Overall i did very well considering i've only played the deck for around a week and a half blowing out reps on xMage. The performance has been outstanding and i just love the deck.

[Zooligan]

The maindeck discard seems to have become Collective Brutality + Thoughtseize. I've been run CB + Unmask though, and like to hear from others why they prefer maindeck Thoughtseize over Unmask.

I've had really good luck recently with 4 CB/3 TS/1 Unmask.

Brutality is just so versatile and has great utility right now with the different modes available and the ability to use it to discard a fatty.

TS I like over Unmask to draw naturally as the card disadvantage of Unmask often comes back to bite me when I run 4 (I seem to draw it and Chrome Mox a lot in the same hand after I've already mulliganed, yuk!), but I really like drawing it in my G-daddy 7 or 14 and pitching an extraneous black card to it to grab their StP or Murderous Cut or critical business card.

[Poron]

this deck is fun but it will get all the cross hate of SneakShow + all the DRS decks the format will already play..

Not so sure it's reanimator time

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Wrong again. Now is absolutely the time. I've got mine done now, and I couldn't be happier. There are next to zero Faerie Macabre around, and I haven't seen any Leylines to speak of, either. That's about as good as it gets.

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[Atherion]

I also agree it's not the best time for reanimator, at least in my meta, there are blue DRS decks everywhere, also people started to jam cages in their SBs as it hits elves too, which is very annoying. The deck is still very strong and I love the fact that against non-blue decks (and storm) it has a very easy time.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hmm. I guess regionally metagames can vary. Mine is WIDE open, none of that going on. Maybe it's the calm before the storm?

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[Zooligan]

Quick strategy question: Under what situations do you NOT go for G-brand first?

I oftentimes go for Iona on red against burn to hedge against the few times I whiff on G-daddy activations. Other than that though I almost always find myself Entombing the big fella.

Thoughts?

[DNSolver]

Zooligan has the right idea - almost always get Griselbrand first. See the section in the primer under Creature Choices, copied here:

4 Griselbrand – the first reanimation target is this guy 95% of the time. The only time you can make an argument to get someone else is if one or more of the following is true:
Griselbrand is Pithing Needle’d / Phyrexian Revoker’d
Karakas is in play and you know that the coast is clear for another creature
At a very low life total and Elesh Norn / Iona is required immediately
Other 5% circumstance that is unpredictable

Another circumstance is if you are about to get Chalice'd out of the game and you need to get Tidespout Tyrant? But Griselbrand might be okay in that matchup just as a lifelinking creature.

[Zooligan]

When I'm facing (nearly) mono-colored decks like D&T or Elves or Merfolk I'm seriously tempted to go for Iona, but it never seems to work out as well as I think it should. Not sure if G-pappy would have been better or not, but maybe.

When are we going to get some post-top BR Reanimator content Solver?? :D

[Darkness]

I've been playing DNS's list on cockatrice and have been loving it. I have no problem figuring the puzzle out to assemble the combo but I have been struggling with what to take out for lots of match ups. Anyone have a general guide of what one takes out for the match ups.

[Atherion]

I always take out 4x faithless looting, a useless creature and maybe a chrome mox. Everybody is running surgicals, so faithless is quite bad post board.

[DNSolver]

Cut Looting? What?

I posted a page or two back that I usually board out the worst creature in the matchup (usually Tidespout or Iona) and two fast mana to make room for 3 cards, and I cut lots of fast mana in the stompy matchups to make room for Reverent Silence and Abrupt Decay.

[Atherion]

Against decks that side in surgical (almost every tier deck), running a looting into a surgical is not very nice. I'd rather do some discarding with the mana than looting and you also need a red mana, so you're making yourself vulnerable to wasteland. That's my reasoning.

[Basedx]

Against decks that side in surgical (almost every tier deck), running a looting into a surgical is not very nice. I'd rather do some discarding with the mana than looting and you also need a red mana, so you're making yourself vulnerable to wasteland. That's my reasoning.

I don't really agree at all. In fact it makes even more sense if they bring in surgical as you can dig to more targets/action/etc or find more hand disruption prior to a reanimation attempt. Cutting the extremely small amount of card draw/selection does not seem correct in any circumstance to me.

[TokenMaster]

You don't want to cut Looting because games 2-3 you want to see either a turn 1 or you want to see your outs to hate ASAP. It's also another discard outlet because Thoughtseize/Unmask on yourself when your opponent may be holding Surgical or hate that comes down next turn isn't where you want to be.

[Atherion]

I don't need to dig for answers, since I swap faithless mostly for dicard/answers - 3 CB and 1 TS usually against blue DRS decks, also with this deck you normally function of your first 7-6 cards and not draws, faithless also rarely lets you combo off in the first turn (red mana), can't be pitched to unmask and the wasteland danger is real, not some fringe play. I am not a big fan of cutting fast mana, dark ritual eg, this decks wins through speed, not resilience or card draw.

[ratninja]

Tried the deck again as the meta seemed ripe. Went 4 0 playing a pretty standard list with white splash.

Punishing thing. 2 1.
Tin fins. 2 1. Seemed like 50/60 cards were the same.
Goblins. 2 1.
UR delver. 2 0.

Didn't understand why we splash wear tear.
Always boarded out 1 griselbrand and 1 chancellor as surgical is devastating for more creatures.
Always boarded out 1-4 Faithless Looting. Usually in for CB.
First time playing 4 unmask instead of CB. Wow. So good!
Didn't miss sire in the main. Never got him with entomb.

Questions:
Wear tear. When do you bring it in? Wouldn't blue bounce and show and tell be better?
Played 2 chrome mox and 12 lands. Didn't like it. Is it good or am I jumping to conclusions? Mulliganed a lot! Best game was a win with no lands drawn.

[Ingo]

Questions:
Wear tear. When do you bring it in? Wouldn't blue bounce and show and tell be better?
Played 2 chrome mox and 12 lands. Didn't like it. Is it good or am I jumping to conclusions? Mulliganed a lot! Best game was a win with no lands drawn.

Wear/tear hits both leyline and chalice, like versus eldrazi.

S&T is only good with grisel or another 1-off fatty in hand, and is useless with entomb. As we dont have much cardselection, entomb is really important as its grisel 5-8 or a silver bullet, so in my opinion its better to hate on the hate and keep your entire deck live, than to board in S&T and play two parallel strategies with some important dissynergies between corecards.

[Jeff]

Wear tear. When do you bring it in? Wouldn't blue bounce and show and tell be better?

That's where I settled, yes. I played hundreds of matches with the deck and found that I just wasn't assembling the Wear/Tear, discard effect, and reanimation outlet in time to win games. Sure, in theory it kills Leyline of the Void, but I'm rarely winning those games because by the time I have all 3 of those cards and the mana to cast them my opponent has played a Chalice of the void or a Trinisphere I can't get through or a Grafdiggers' Cage or they just have a bunch of discard and I never really put it together. It's asking too much of a deck without Brainstorm to put together a plan with Wear/Tear. My win% against Eldrazi went up precipitously when I switched to 4 Show and Tell + 2 Echoing Truth. Truth gives me a chance to do the same thing Wear/Tear does, but Show and Tell lets me just ignore their cards completely.


Played 2 chrome mox and 12 lands. Didn't like it. Is it good or am I jumping to conclusions? Mulliganed a lot! Best game was a win with no lands drawn.

I didn't like it either. I stuck with 14 lands. 12 lands and 2 Chrome Moxes improves your chances of winning once you reanimate Griselbrand, but I felt I was losing more games to mulligans and bad draws when I was on 12 lands than I was to reanimating griselbrand and not being able to keep going without the chromes.

[Ingo]

I played hundreds of matches with the deck and found that I just wasn't assembling the Wear/Tear, discard effect, and reanimation outlet in time to win games. Sure, in theory it kills Leyline of the Void, but I'm rarely winning those games because by the time I have all 3 of those cards and the mana to cast them my opponent has played a Chalice of the void or a Trinisphere I can't get through or a Grafdiggers' Cage or they just have a bunch of discard and I never really put it together. It's asking too much of a deck without Brainstorm to put together a plan with Wear/Tear.

I think this discussion about sideplans is interesting, and I'd like to discuss it further.

I largely agree with the arguments you make for the blue plan, but I dont think it's correct to compare S&T+Grisel with WearTear+ReanimatingGrisel as a 2-card combo versus a 3 card (or more) combo.
A better comparison would be: 2cardcombo (S&T+Grisel) versus 1card+multiplereanimationscenario's (WearTear+ ...).
As the reanimation scenario can be a combination of many cards, (entomb+reanimate, Loot-Grisel-reanimate, ...), I'd be surprised if chances of having exactly S&T+ Grisel are better than having exactly WearTear + 1 of multiple reanimation scenarios.

Removing the hate has also one big advantage in my opinion (ofcourse, Echoing Truth is removal too);
Entomb is usable again, and doubles the chances of getting Griselbrand instead of reanimating/S&T-ing a mediocre Chancellor.

(edited some stuff to improve readability)

[Darkness]

Been testing deck BR/g version stock list following changes

13 lands 1 Chrome Mox
4 Brutaility MD

SB - 15
4x Reverent Silence
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Unmask
1x Grave Titan
1x Inkwell
1x Elesh

Been pretty happy with the deck. Unmask for the non DRS blue decks and other combo match ups.

I've been taking out
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Dark Ritual
-1 Thoughtsieze
-1 Faithless Looting

for 4x Abrupt Decay against chalice decks and 3x Decays for DRS +1 Looting
Any advise?

[Calmdown]

Hi Guys

I'm just getting back into legacy after an absence (thanks top ban) and I decided to pick up BR reanimator because I was a big fan of the Unmask tech.

After playing 100-odd games with it (with an insane winrate I might add, like 85% discounting crappy decks and idiotic opponents) Im not so sure I agree with most of the currently on-trend sideboard choices so thought I'd throw some stuff out there.

First though, on maindeck Unmask vs Brutality as it affects the board plan a lot: I think Unmask is what really pushes this deck into the stratosphere and the main reason to play it over UB. It's another card besides chancellor that guarantees your combo or at least gives you perfect info to craft a better plan. It uosbthe percebtage of an early griselbrand sealing the game since you can do more from hand after his draw. We're the fastest good combo deck in the format, and taking out combo protection for fair cards seems bad. I tried it after the deck that came second at MKM Frankfurt did so well but I just can't get behind it.

On the subject of the sideboard and CB, I started out with 4 in the SB, then went to 3 and then 2, and now I'm debating removing them altogether. 2 mana for a non-combo piece is just way too much, honestly; if you're trying to fight a fair game against DRS, you're in a bad place already. If we want a board piece to beat DRS I'd rather just play bolt, or gutshot. The discard and grave enabling is nice but it is just so damn slow.

On the subject of enchant/artefact removal, like the post above I find wear/tear weak. A 1 mana disenchant is just not good against the deck that you need it most against - Eldrazi. I'd rather run actual disenchant and be more expensive but not be locked out by a chalice on 1 to be honest. More of a problem though is that Eldrazi is going to barrage you with mana based disruption and so really I think Reverent Silence is the superior anti-leyline choice; doesn't get chaliced, can happen before a thorn or thought-knot turns up. The problem with this of course is that you are then cold to artifacts, but it feels like being cold to artifacts is better than being blown out totally by a pretty popular deck.

On "alternate plans" I am a fan of this and I'm currently running 3 Stronghold Gambit; it's good in any matchup, not just creatureless ones, thanks to 8 discard spells main. I don't buy the "bring it in vs creatureless decks" thing since many people will board in Faerie Macabre, Lands can run Hexmage when you thought you were playing a different lands version but didn't see it was turbo depths, etc; so since you're playing around enemy creatures anyway, it's ok to bring it in vs burn or delver for example where you suspect a cage (for some reason) or just want to switch your combo pieces up.

So my SB currently looks like this:

4 Reverent Silence
3 Stronghold Gambit
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Collecive Brutality
1 Elesh Norn
1 Grave Titan

I've been really happy with Pithing needle vs Denver and it also gains you a Lot of points vs lands (stage, Karakas, Mage) and D&T (karakas). Needle is also proactive, which you really want vs DRS and Karakas. Oh, and needle also has fringe-but-great play vs Tormods, Relic and Nihil Spellbomb. Im considering getting rid of both CBS for another needle and another creature to improve the anti-extraction game.

The last thing I wanted to throw out was that I don't think boarding out looting is ever correct. We can turn 1/2 withgreat frequency and this is one of our enablers. We shouldn't try to beat DRS with CB, we beat it with speed and consistency (or by discarding it). If they do get a live DRS before you go off, one of the better ways to deal with it if you don't have a needle is simply to get two bodies in the in and Exhume. Either way between speed, discard, needle and Gambit I think we have plenty of anti-DRS play.

Sorry if that was a bit ramble but keen to hear your thoughts; I think the current popular reanimator sideboards are suboptimal and have a lot of room for improvement, or someone knows something I don't know!

[DNSolver]

I'm glad you've been liking the deck. Unmask is definitely great but I've been trying Brutality for a bit and it's randomly useful in a lot of situations that I really liked.

As far as sideboard cards against Lands and D+T, Tidespout Tyrant beats Lands with the help of Griselbrand, and Archetype of Endurance beats Death and Taxes with the help of Griselbrand.

[Ingo]

On the subject of enchant/artefact removal, like the post above I find wear/tear weak. A 1 mana disenchant is just not good against the deck that you need it most against - Eldrazi. I'd rather run actual disenchant and be more expensive but not be locked out by a chalice on 1 to be honest. More of a problem though is that Eldrazi is going to barrage you with mana based disruption and so really I think Reverent Silence is the superior anti-leyline choice; doesn't get chaliced, can happen before a thorn or thought-knot turns up. The problem with this of course is that you are then cold to artifacts, but it feels like being cold to artifacts is better than being blown out totally by a pretty popular deck.


True, the scenario of both Leyline + Chalice1 locks out Wear//Tear.
And in this case W//T is inferior to Reverent Silence, as chalice is beatable, but Leyline is not (supposing no other cards are boarded).

However, I believe that in dealing with a Leyline on it's own (or a chalice ofcourse), W//T is the better card. Basically because you need both this card and the conditions to cast it, and conditions to cast W//T are easier (a white source) than RSilence (a forest). If you take for example a manabase of 7 fetch, 2 mox (imprinting chancellor), 4 petals, you almost have twice as much resources to cast W//T in comparison to RSilence. Considering that we only have 4 cards and hardly any cardselection to deal with hate like Leyline, I think the easier conditions to be able to cast Wear//Tear are an important factor in comparing both cards.

[Calmdown]

True, the scenario of both Leyline + Chalice1 locks out Wear//Tear.
And in this case W//T is inferior to Reverent Silence, as chalice is beatable, but Leyline is not (supposing no other cards are boarded).

However, I believe that in dealing with a Leyline on it's own (or a chalice ofcourse), W//T is the better card. Basically because you need both this card and the conditions to cast it, and conditions to cast W//T are easier (a white source) than RSilence (a forest). If you take for example a manabase of 7 fetch, 2 mox (imprinting chancellor), 4 petals, you almost have twice as much resources to cast W//T in comparison to RSilence. Considering that we only have 4 cards and hardly any cardselection to deal with hate like Leyline, I think the easier conditions to be able to cast Wear//Tear are an important factor in comparing both cards.

I think when you take the decks that run leyline (Eldrazi, Dragon Stompy for example) in context you'll see that its actually more likely youre going to struggle to cast a Tear. Youve got Thorn or Chalice to contend with, you've got Blood Moon T2 or a TKS that can take your Tear, etc. There are a whole bunch of ways in which you just straight up lose to Eldrazi and it's a really hard game if they draw their hate at all, the main way that you beat them if youre going to is by going off T1 on the draw or T2 on the play. Our deck is good at doing that, but not if we have to spend even a single mana on a disenchant. So imho, rather than give yourself a small chance of beating a bad matchup if you go past T1/2 its much more preferable to give yourself the best possible chance of winning in your best window.

Same theory as why I think CB is not great. We're a combo deck, we're resilient but we go all in a lot. We can beat a lot of hate by just being too fast for the hate - so reinforcing that is preferable to trying to play a lomger game you are probably going to lose anyway.

[zangoasyl]

True, the scenario of both Leyline + Chalice1 locks out Wear//Tear.
Wrong! New fuse ruling: CMC in this case will be three, hence chalice is not a problem IF there also is an enchantment you can target and IF you have three mana at the ready

[Calmdown]

Wrong! New fuse ruling: CMC in this case will be three, hence chalice is not a problem IF there also is an enchantment you can target and IF you have three mana at the ready

This is why I said above it locks out Tear, not Wear/Tear. However if you have 3 mana to cast both of these, it means you're likely using fast mana from your hand to do so, and more likely you're doing this on T2; that's already too slow vs Eldrazi, most of the time.

[Ingo]

So imho, rather than give yourself a small chance of beating a bad matchup if you go past T1/2 its much more preferable to give yourself the best possible chance of winning in your best window.


Nicely put, but this is a playstyle-philosophy (and a good one), but not a rule-set-in-stone that will assure you more wins. Because there's a balance between 'the best window' (the optimal conditions to combo out), and the chances of having that best window. A best window won't win you the game when it does not not occur frequently enough.
Collective Brutality is a tad clunky but you trade in some percentages of sheer speed combo for some percentages to beat a quasi-hardlock. You go too far by dismissing CB in function of your playstyle, and I think you go too far by dismissing Wear//Tear too. There's no chance in beating Leyline by sheer speed, there's only the chance of beating other hatepieces (chalice, Thorn, ...) with sheer speed AFTER you destroy the Leyline. Leyline is the conditio-sine-qua-non , which is why I prefer the most reliable answer to remove it.


Wrong! New fuse ruling: CMC in this case will be three, hence chalice is not a problem IF there also is an enchantment you can target and IF you have three mana at the ready

My bad, thanks for pointing this out. Chances are slim though of having 3 mana of which 2 are nonblack with chalice on 1 the table.

[BR3N7]

How perfect the topic is what I was going to ask.

So I have found Wear/Tear to just be terrible recently.

LOTV is at a very low play % right now and only really being played in:

Eldrazi
Eldrazi Ramp
Loam
Lands
Dragon Stompy

Pox and Tezz do as well but they are very uncommon.

Everyone is using Surgical and Macabre.

I have been testing just a BR only build and outside of Eldrazi (non-ramp) Stronghold Gambit plays the same roll as Wear/Tear and is just amazing right now with so many combo decks. IDK was curious on other peoples thoughts or if they have also tried this.

This is the build I am testing currently:


1 Sire of Insanity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask
4 Thoughtseize
4 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
2 Badlands
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp

Sideboard:15

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Grave Titan
1 Blazing Archon
4 Stronghold Gambit
2 Blood Moon
1 Coffin Purge
2 By Force - Still Testing
1 Collective Brutality
1 Chaos Warp - Gives me 1 catch all that you can also YOLO with and have done and hit. - Still testing

[Calmdown]

How perfect the topic is what I was going to ask.

So I have found Wear/Tear to just be terrible recently.

LOTV is at a very low play % right now and only really being played in:

Eldrazi
Eldrazi Ramp
Loam
Lands
Dragon Stompy

Pox and Tezz do as well but they are very uncommon.

Everyone is using Surgical and Macabre.

I have been testing just a BR only build and outside of Eldrazi (non-ramp) Stronghold Gambit plays the same roll as Wear/Tear and is just amazing right now with so many combo decks. IDK was curious on other peoples thoughts or if they have also tried this.

This is the build I am testing currently:


1 Sire of Insanity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask
4 Thoughtseize
4 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
2 Badlands
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp

Sideboard:15

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Grave Titan
1 Blazing Archon
4 Stronghold Gambit
2 Blood Moon
1 Coffin Purge
2 By Force - Still Testing
1 Collective Brutality
1 Chaos Warp - Gives me 1 catch all that you can also YOLO with and have done and hit. - Still testing

I obviously agree with your about wear/tear from my comments above, but I think you are too cold to hate here. Also I honestly think that if you are going to run CB, its a 4 or 0; if you're on the CB "plan" then you want to make surr you have it.

A diverse creature base is no use when you cant get them into play!

I havent tested Blood Moon yet myself, I intend to do so soon, but again I think if you're going to run it you want 3-4.

[Ingo]

How perfect the topic is what I was going to ask.

So I have found Wear/Tear to just be terrible recently.

LOTV is at a very low play % right now and only really being played in ...

Your argumentation against W/T seems to be that Leyline isnt frequently played in your meta. Thats a good meta to play in, because in theory you could deal with any other hatecard with discard (and chancellor). However, since leyline comes down on T0 you must have a plan for it, whether its W/T or RSilence like Calmdown heavily stands for. But you cannot afford to rely solely on Gambits, as theyll usually fall short in the matchups playing leyline (eldrazi, 4c loam, ...).

[Jonny Tempel]

Hey Guys!

I sold some of my moden cards to buy into Reanimator as my second Legacy deck (UR Delver beeing the other one) and i'm only missing some sideboard cards, Chrome Mox and Chancellors to finish it.

My first list looks like this:

4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Sire of Insanity

4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Animate Dead

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Stronghold Gambit
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Elesh Norn
1 Blazing Archon
1 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


I would like to keep the Decays as my "anti hate/DRS tool of choice" but i'm not sure if i should run Stronghold Gambit or Reverent Silence (In case of Leylines).

Would be nice to get some feedback.

[Zooligan]

Rev Si costs no mana if you control a forest...

[Darkness]

I've been a fan of the reverent silences. Also I have been testing unmask over CB MD. I like the tempo plays of both. More testing incoming.

[Zooligan]

I've been a fan of the reverent silences. Also I have been testing unmask over CB MD. I like the tempo plays of both. More testing incoming.

My best performance in the last few months has been with a discard suite of 4 Collective Brutality / 3 Thoughtseize / 1 Unmask. I feel this gives me the flexibility and utility of CB, the T1 disruption/perfect info capability of TS in opening hands and natural draws, and the efficiency of Unmask after a G-daddy 7 or 14 without the potential sticky wickets of card disadvantage Unmask when it is hugely inconvenient (like after a mull or two, or when you also draw Chrome Mox).

Of course sometimes there are still openers with Unmask and Mox, or a series of mulls leaves you with Unmask when you would really want a TS, but those situations are minimized with this config.

CB is sillygood. Stripping an instant/sorcery, killing a Deathrite or Delver or or Young Pyromancer or whatever, draining them for 2, and putting a couple fatties in the yard for 1B is just fantastic!

[Meester Roboto]

I may have missed the discussion, but has it been discussed to run simian spirit guides (over moxen)?

I personally have had success (which I understand is not an indication it is a better choice) with running the SSG over the Chrom Moxes. I run a "stock" build cutting the general two moxes and an unmask (was a card availability issue at the time) in favor of three SSG. After the many matches I have played, I have really enjoyed the the SSG and the acceleration they give me. I feel like 3 is a good number. If I had to cut one, I would likely want to switch back to chrome mox.

Also, I know I should probably have the 4th unmask, but that is not the point I want to stress.

My main question is, has anyone done this and is there a general consensus on why I should not be playing SSG?

[Ingo]

My main question is, has anyone done this and is there a general consensus on why I should not be playing SSG?

A pure RB variant was quite popular some time ago and usually ran 4 Sneak Attack's in the side.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14003&d=283027&f=LE
Downside of the SSG is being red, and outside of looting (or a sidecard) you need black. When you splash a third color, it's probably too hard to play them.

[Rocco111]

Here the list I have been running lately:
// Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal

// 16 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Grave Titan

// 3 Enchantment
3 Animate Dead

// 8 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb

// 13 Land
4 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Mountain

// 16 Sorcery
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask


// Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 1 Children of Korlis **

// 5 Enchantment
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Sneak Attack

// 6 Sorcery
SB: 3 Stronghold Gambit
SB: 2 Massacre **
SB: 1 Sickening Dreams **

The cards with ** are the ones which are "in test"/"flex slots".
TBH Massacre has been pretty darn good BUT I could see changing these for either Collective Brutality or Thoughtseize.

This list is overall rather all-in with speed being the key. It supports fairly well aggressive mulligans.
Also, after discussing at length with other fellow BR Rea players, we came to agree that playing means of countering or destroying hate cards our opponents would play against us is not where we want to be. And this is the reason why this list packs a full set of SGG as well as alternative means of cheating creatures (S.Gambit and S.Attack).

Final thoughts regarding Chrome Mox: if you consider that playing Unmask is already leading us to do 2-for-1, playing C.Mox as well is increasing the risks of having hands with no "real" business and thus forcing us to mulligan even more. Therefore, I prefer to play 13 lands rather than risking to make too much card disadvantage. Eventually I could see a case being made to run 1 Mox tops but certainly not 2. Or at least not while playing Unmask that is.

[Atherion]

I feel like I have to post this, this is from the elves forum:

Quarterfinals BR Reanimator 2-1 (Won game 1 through a T1 Sire)

Also in one of Julian Knab's articles he shows a game in frankfurt against reanimator, where the rea guy had a grisel and sire in play and still lost.

I personally once almost lost a T1 Sire game against storm - a MU where he supposedly is good.

[Zooligan]

I feel like I have to post this, this is from the elves forum:

Quarterfinals BR Reanimator 2-1 (Won game 1 through a T1 Sire)

Also in one of Julian Knab's articles he shows a game in frankfurt against reanimator, where the rea guy had a grisel and sire in play and still lost.

I personally once almost lost a T1 Sire game against storm - a MU where he supposedly is good.

Iona and Elesh are much better against swarm decks than Sire. Iona on green cuts Elves down to size, and on red hobbles Goblins. Elesh is just a house against anything fronting creatures/tokens with 2 toughness or less.

[Calmdown]

Iona and Elesh are much better against swarm decks than Sire. Iona on green cuts Elves down to size, and on red hobbles Goblins. Elesh is just a house against anything fronting creatures/tokens with 2 toughness or less.

Sire is a gimmick imho. His toughness is too low to stay on the board as easily as "real" big targets, and he isn't evasive. He is *only* good T1 otherwise his ability might not even get you there. If you get a T1 reanimate you should really be able to close the game out anyway barring extreme good draws by your opponent, and your opponents have a lot more "live" good draws vs a sire.

Personally I run

4 Chancellor
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona
1 Tidespout Tyrant

Iona closes out a lot more (albeit different matchup) G1s that are hard to close out otherwise than Sire does, imho.

[RhoxWarMonk]

I feel like I have to post this, this is from the elves forum:

Quarterfinals BR Reanimator 2-1 (Won game 1 through a T1 Sire)

Also in one of Julian Knab's articles he shows a game in frankfurt against reanimator, where the rea guy had a grisel and sire in play and still lost.

I personally once almost lost a T1 Sire game against storm - a MU where he supposedly is good.

Ive lost with a turn 1 sire in play... It sucks. I dropped him completely in favor of iona now, theres just way too many outs and its too easy for your opponent to recover compared to you being able to recombo again in time. Not a fan of his at all, even though his eot ability is completely bonkers on paper.

[Zooligan]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-05-21-17-legacy-challenge-scg-louisville-and-an-unexpected-appearance

I searched that page and all it's decklists. Know what isn't there? Leyline of the Void.

Also checked all the top 16 from Louisville's Legacy Classic and only found 6 copies across 2 decks.

Maybe Rev Si is taking up 3-4 slots that are not needed in the current meta??

[AEMarling]

Whether or not to run reactionary hate vs Leyline of the Void is a big question. I don't see anyone discussing one potential strategy: ignoring the Leyline, Thoughtseizing their creatures, and animating them. I've won with this route a few times in tournaments. It typically works when they mull aggressively to find the Leyline. I can see beating Eldrazi and Dragon Stompy this way. Will need to test more to see if this is better than diluting the deck with purely reactionary cards.

Our deck has little card selection, and with everything contributing toward the combo, I am loath to side in anything unless it's a silver-bullet fatty. I have tried adding Phyrexian Obliterators as an alternate win con, as well as Lake of the Dead to ramp into six drops. Both these options feel underwhelming because, as mentioned before, our strength is Entomb and the ability to select the most powerful creature to Reanimate. It is possible that against the Leyline deck specifically, Phyrexian Obliterators may be better than enchantment-only removal, as a turn 1 Obliterator is a scary thing.

[Darkness]

Whether or not to run reactionary hate vs Leyline of the Void is a big question. I don't see anyone discussing one potential strategy: ignoring the Leyline, Thoughtseizing their creatures, and animating them. I've won with this route a few times in tournaments. It typically works when they mull aggressively to find the Leyline. I can see beating Eldrazi and Dragon Stompy this way. Will need to test more to see if this is better than diluting the deck with purely reactionary cards.

Our deck has little card selection, and with everything contributing toward the combo, I am loath to side in anything unless it's a silver-bullet fatty. I have tried adding Phyrexian Obliterators as an alternate win con, as well as Lake of the Dead to ramp into six drops. Both these options feel underwhelming because, as mentioned before, our strength is Entomb and the ability to select the most powerful creature to Reanimate. It is possible that against the Leyline deck specifically, Phyrexian Obliterators may be better than enchantment-only removal, as a turn 1 Obliterator is a scary thing.

When I was playing eldrazi at GP Louisville. I opened my game two hand with leyline thorn 4 fatties and a wasteland. Played leyline opening. Didn't find another land. My opponent turn 1 unmasks my TKS to the yard and then proceeds to reanimate it. I think this should be looked at as a back up strategy as it will not always work out for us but it is definitely an option. I've been testing with Reverent Silence in the board and have had minimal issues with leyline, making me either smart or very very lucky.

[Scott]

Good showing for B/R Reanimator in this week's MTGO Legacy Challenge (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-05-29), with it taking 1st place and 4th place, piloted by capsula1 and ekieling.

[Atherion]

no unmasks as well, would like to know if that was because of the price online or a metagame call.

[sadface]

no unmasks as well, would like to know if that was because of the price online or a metagame call.
I think Collective Brutality is just the better card. Would not be surprised to see it replace Unmask in most BR Reanimator lists going forward.

[Mackan]

What is the main draw to BR rather than UB? I'm currently playing UB with both petals and Chancellors for speed. Seems like almost the same list but I have countermagic instead of discard and cantrips instead of dark ritual and some fatties.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It seems to me its the speed at which one combos that is the difference. Your turn 1 is, percentage-wise, considerably lower to turn one reanimate. Sure, you can do it, but generally speaking without ritual, you will be "wasting" your turn with a cantrip, while this version will either combo or gain info and take relevant hate via a turn 1 discard spell, and occasionally, both. I played bug reanimator at go SeaTac in '15 and was disappointed in how often I piddled around trying to find one part or another of the combo, which allowed other decks to catch up. I would much prefer to go with a speedier build than anything other reanimator list with blue in it. I also really dislike daze in Reanimator, but that's probably a personal opinion.

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[neuhier]

Have been playing the deck for quite a while now.

What I cannot get my head around is those sideboards containing Blood Moon. I like Blood Moons in the current meta (vs. Grixis Delver, RUG-variants) in general, but I don't see how it helps RB-Reanimator in general.

Are we trying to resolve a Turn1 Blood Moon vs. these kinds of decks? I have the feeling that we are not very well prepared to do so. Problems are: Those 4color-decks all play countermagic and I think it is not realistic to cast discard + blood moon that early with our mana base.

Would be interested in your opinions whether Blood Moon is a reasonable sideboard-choice and for which matchups!

[chaosjace]

My thought is they are there for delver matchups as resolving one against them is usually game, but they pack countermagic and unless you start with chancellor into turn one blood moon I can't see it being that useful, considering the resources you need to accompolish that. You are also probably better off just leading with discard then combo. I am not speaking from experience just speculating. I personally just run more utility creatures SB and then GY hate.

Always liked massacre wurm.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It deals with Karakas, also no one expects it out of BR Reanimator. Maybe that's why?

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[Darkness]

Have been playing the deck for quite a while now.

What I cannot get my head around is those sideboards containing Blood Moon. I like Blood Moons in the current meta (vs. Grixis Delver, RUG-variants) in general, but I don't see how it helps RB-Reanimator in general.

Are we trying to resolve a Turn1 Blood Moon vs. these kinds of decks? I have the feeling that we are not very well prepared to do so. Problems are: Those 4color-decks all play countermagic and I think it is not realistic to cast discard + blood moon that early with our mana base.

Would be interested in your opinions whether Blood Moon is a reasonable sideboard-choice and for which matchups!

I agree that it is a poor plan to fight delver. It does shut down their lands but between them having all their tools to fight us landing the combo, counter magic and discard before we land a blood moon, and still have force, surgical and pyromancer live after a a blood moon resolves. Also, by using your limited resources to push out a blood moon it can leave you short to push out your combo later. The dilution of your deck is also an issue. I usually just add a grave titan and remove a griselbrand, add 2-3 decays and remove some fast mana to fight through DRS. I haven't had too much of an issue against Delver. Against karakas DNSolver's Archtype plus Iona is a better solution.

[Darkness]

I've been testing the green variant recently but the white variant has been popping up more regularly on mtgo. Thoughts in current meta?

[Zooligan]

I've been testing the green variant recently but the white variant has been popping up more regularly on mtgo. Thoughts in current meta?

Yeah, I'm not sure if it's just a numbers thing or if the Wear/Tear board has real metagame advantages. I don't have the time nor is my play consistently good enough to really test it out.

[Ingo]

I've been testing the green variant recently but the white variant has been popping up more regularly on mtgo. Thoughts in current meta?

I made count of lists featuring both Wear // Tear, and Reverent Silence, from 29/10/2016 (EE, where Kurtis Frazer Top8’ed - there are no lists with W/T before this date). 43 lists featuring Reverent Silence – 32 lists with Wear // Tear. So RevSi is still more popular with a share of 57% (not counting other lists without W/T or RevSi).

I was kinda surprised though to compare bigger events (dropping all 1-star events), 12 lists with W/T versus just 5 lists with RevSi. Or Wear // Tear seems more succesful in bigger events with a share of 70% (12/17). Ofcourse the amount of these bigger events is just 17, so this is a very limited amount of data to draw conclusions from. And sideboards consists of way more cards than RevSi - W/T, so maybe it has nothing to do with these specific cards.

[Darkness]

Anyone going to Vegas?

[AEMarling]

I'm going to Vegas and am considering Reanimator. How do you feel the hate climate will be? I've been testing against 2 Surgicals, 1 Cage graveyard hate, on average. Do you think it'd be worse than that?

[splorf]

I'm going to Vegas and am considering Reanimator. How do you feel the hate climate will be? I've been testing against 2 Surgicals, 1 Cage graveyard hate, on average. Do you think it'd be worse than that?

I'd recommend to prepare for Leyline of the Void as well.

[qomori]

I considered it for Vegas and got scared off by the hate. I know you have to run a bit hot in any GP, but it seems like we're still on the radar enough that it'd be really tough over that many rounds.

Def going to take the deck for a spin in a last chance trial though.

[Rocco111]

I considered it for Vegas and got scared off by the hate. I know you have to run a bit hot in any GP, but it seems like we're still on the radar enough that it'd be really tough over that many rounds.

Def going to take the deck for a spin in a last chance trial though.

I think this is like the worst approach:
If you want to play in the main event, it is better to have a little opportunities to show the deck in the trials as possible. Trials are often seen not only as a mean of "warming up for a big event" as well as "an opportunity to get byes" but also to get a feel for the meta of the main event. Therefore, hidding the deck during the trials will likely push players to change their SB and lower the hate towards a deck that seems under-represented.
In all major events, players know that there will be about all kind of decks, including fringe ones (like Cherioos, Belcher, Quinn and other ManalessDredge) but the percentage of players seriously aiming for the money will dedicate their 15 SB cards to beat the most represented decks as well as their "worst MUs".
So if you do not want to play the deck in the main event, try to do a favor to the ones who will and do not play it during the trials either.

M2c

[Quentin Coldman]

Last weeks I played 3 tournaments with the Collective-Brutality-list just to give it a try:

//Main
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Grave Titan
2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Collective Brutality
4 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
3 Animate Dead

//Sideboard
4 Wear // Tear
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Ashen Rider
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Massacre
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction

First tournament 22 players:
2:1 vs Burn
2:1 vs Eldrazi Taxes
2:0 vs ANT
2:0 vs Patriot
1:2 vs UW Blade

I ended up second place

Second tournament 26 players:
2:0 vs Turbo Depths
2:0 vs Burn
2:0 vs Nic Fit
2:1 vs Bant Blade
2:0 vs Food Chain

I ended up first place

Thrid tournament 87 players:
2:1 vs Nic Fit
2:1 vs Lands
2:1 vs Mirror
2:0 vs Bant Blade
2:0 vs UW Blade
2:1 vs Elves
ID vs Elves

Quarterfinal:
1:2 vs Bant Blade

I ended up fifth place

Deck performed really awesome and the only changes I would make are some sideboardslots. Still not sure what list is better Unmask or Brutality.

[Zooligan]

Deck performed really awesome and the only changes I would make are some sideboardslots. Still not sure what list is better Unmask or Brutality.

I *really* enjoy playing 4 Brutality, 3 Thoughtseize, 1 Unmask. Reason being is Brutality provides so much utility as a discard outlet/2-toughness killa that I think anything other than a 4-of is a mistake, 3 TS provides it being in your opening hand fairly often, and the singleton Unmask shows up in many G-brand 7-14 when the card disadvantage it produces really isn't a disadvantage any longer (like it would be in an opening hand).

I haven't seen anyone else giving it a try, but like I said I really enjoy that configuration.

[NegatorITA]

Guys, why are people running wear//tear rather than reverent silence/decay combination?
Too many slots in the board? I know it's rare but solving two leyline at once and with 0 Mana seems good on paper, just wanted to know this.
I also see that online some one is trying 3 stronghold Gambit+3/4 show and tell as alternative win con, was never too much of a Gambit fan even if it won me a couple of games in the past

[Darkness]

I tested both and I just like the flexibility of Wear and Tear, adding sideboard slots gives me some piece of mind and that is a factor in any strategy. DRS doesn't seem to be a problem with Brutality.

I am start Sideboard guide for this primer and will be posting my 200 match results as I have done for Eldrazi. Expect it up within 1-1.5 months.

[Final Fortune]

So I've moved from Storm to Reanimator for a change of pace, and I thought I'd give my two cents.

Regarding the MD and SB arguments, I think B/r Reanimator's advantage is speed and if you're not committing to that angle then you're better off with B/u or B Reanimator instead. It shouldn't be a question of Unmask and Simian Spirit Guide or Collective Brutality and Thoughtseize, but MDing Unmask and Simian Spirit Guide and SBing Collective Brutality and Thoughtseize. This is why the W splash is better than the G splash, you increase your SB space with Wear/Tear so you can make room for Collective Brutality and Thoughtseize game 2. Because once you are on the draw, you no longer have the element of surprise and they have hate then you need cost efficient disruption.

[Darkness]

I *really* enjoy playing 4 Brutality, 3 Thoughtseize, 1 Unmask. Reason being is Brutality provides so much utility as a discard outlet/2-toughness killa that I think anything other than a 4-of is a mistake, 3 TS provides it being in your opening hand fairly often, and the singleton Unmask shows up in many G-brand 7-14 when the card disadvantage it produces really isn't a disadvantage any longer (like it would be in an opening hand).

I haven't seen anyone else giving it a try, but like I said I really enjoy that configuration.

I started to test this configuration and I must say I have been liking it a lot. The unmask is similiar to the chrome mox as you only want to see it after you've draw 7. It allows for some explosive post reanimate disruption in the early turns when you tap out to get Griselbrand in play. I have also been testing 2 Blood Moon in the board and has been doing a decent amount of work disrupting the sol land prison decks and I've even used it against 4c Loam which is a brick wall for them.

Here is my current 75

Creatures x10
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant

Spells - 37
4 Animate Dead
4 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lotus Petal
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize
1 Unmask
1 Chrome Mox

Lands - 13
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Scrubland

Sideboard - 15
4 Wear // Tear
2 Blood Moon
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan

[Zooligan]

I tested both and I just like the flexibility of Wear and Tear, adding sideboard slots gives me some piece of mind and that is a factor in any strategy. DRS doesn't seem to be a problem with Brutality.

I am start Sideboard guide for this primer and will be posting my 200 match results as I have done for Eldrazi. Expect it up within 1-1.5 months.

Really looking forward to your results and SB guide!

Glad you are giving the 4-3-1 disruption suite a go. I love it!

I've also been testing a trio of Silence in the side recently. Seems to do some work against the countermagic game I've been seeing out of many decks lately. ANT players also hate it when you cast it in response to their Dark Rit. It could even do some work in the mirror (esp pseudo-mirror against counter-heavy BU).

[Darkness]

No BR Reanimator in top 16 GP Vegas. Was all Delver/Miracles/Lands/BUG control, boring...

[DXpt]

There was some in top64, top32 even. The difference between 16th and 63rd place was a single point so it does not really matter if the deck was 24th (Caudill, Eddie), 46th (Anderson, Todd) or 16th...

[Atherion]

looks like everybody was running the show and tell SB option, would love to hear from them how it worked. Bbw, pity that Sullano opted to go for elesh norn instead of griselbrand in his MU against that control deck, diabolic edict and jace are a factor with a deck with 4 ponder and 4 brainstorm.

[JaiAlai]

Two questions:

1) Why maindeck Iona over Elesh Norn? If you go first usually you don't know what the opponent plays so, if you can reanimate on turn 1, usually you will find Griselbrand or Sire of insanity. Is not better leave Iona on the sideboard and use it when you know what you opponent plays? And if you use Collective Brutallity to fight against fast creatures shouldn't you maindeck Elesh Norn too?


2) Do you think that Sheoldred is a good choice in the sideboard against mirror and decks like Show & Tell?

[Darkness]

Two questions:

1) Why maindeck Iona over Elesh Norn? If you go first usually you don't know what the opponent plays so, if you can reanimate on turn 1, usually you will find Griselbrand or Sire of insanity. Is not better leave Iona on the sideboard and use it when you know what you opponent plays? And if you use Collective Brutallity to fight against fast creatures shouldn't you maindeck Elesh Norn too?


2) Do you think that Sheoldred is a good choice in the sideboard against mirror and decks like Show & Tell?

1) Because you have so much discard getting the information to choose the correct color is not that hard with this deck. Griselbrand will always be your first target in the blind. I think the real reason is because Iona is so good against the combo deck which are pretty rampant since the Top Banning. Plus, if Elesh was the staple one could make the same argument about not using Iona with so much combo. Elesh does squat against most combo decks.

2) No. Most SnS players know that the Show and Tell plan is poor against us they will try to win with Sneak Attack, Through the Breach or GY hate game 2 and 3.

[splorf]

Two questions:

1) Why maindeck Iona over Elesh Norn? If you go first usually you don't know what the opponent plays so, if you can reanimate on turn 1, usually you will find Griselbrand or Sire of insanity. Is not better leave Iona on the sideboard and use it when you know what you opponent plays? And if you use Collective Brutallity to fight against fast creatures shouldn't you maindeck Elesh Norn too?


2) Do you think that Sheoldred is a good choice in the sideboard against mirror and decks like Show & Tell?

Iona is sometimes able to lock the opponent game 1. The same is true for Elesh against some decks, so it depends on the meta you expect to face. I prefer Elesh, because it's nice to have a board wipe and in comparison it's the better game 1 T1 reanimation target against an unknown deck (it's a fringe setting, but it happens). Iona is a far better 2nd reanimation target in most cases, though.

I tried Sheoldred once and it wasn't good. It was either too slow or win-more.

[DNSolver]

Iona is better than Elesh Norn in the maindeck because:

1) Combo decks are the only decks that have a chance against you post-Griselbrand, and Iona locks them out pretty well. The fair decks are going to roll over to repeated Griselbrands or Tidespout + 10 spells.

2) Elesh Norn's effect is good against creature decks, which right now are Delver, Death and Taxes, Elves, Maverick, various Blade decks. Death and Taxes, Maverick, and Blade decks have Karakas and Swords to Plowshares to deal with Elesh Norn. At least Iona shuts off Swords. Elves is weak to either creature, as is Delver - probably name blue pre-board and black post-board for edict.

3) Against creature decks, Griselbrand's lifegain if often good enough (Delver) or drawing enough discard is good enough (Elves, blade decks) that you don't need Elesh Norn. I haven't played Elesh Norn in 18 months or so.