Anti [SCD] Terminus

[Lava Snacks]

My friend hates Terminus and I told him he just needs to adapt or die, or at least breed with the stronger humans like the Neanderthals did.

What cards, strategies, and decks are strong against Terminus?

[Bosque]

Against Terminus or against Miracles? I know these questions are similar, but not completely I suppose. Plenty of decks with a good matchup against Miracles.

[Octopusman]

Counterspell
Force of Will
Iona on White
Meddling Mage
Gaddock Teeg
Vendillion Clique

[Megadeus]

I like shutting down the top rather than Terminus. Revoker. I've played it in Zoo. Needle. Stony Silence. Null Rod. City of Solitude (them not being about to do things on your turn is sweet).

[ironclad8690]

I have been loving Invasive Surgery. Envelop wasn't that bad of a card in the first place, now sometimes you get to exile ALL of the sorceries. That's what they get for being sorcerers.

[(nameless one)]

You can also play Chalice as it helps shut down cards that set up Terminus.

[MGB]

What's good against Terminus?

If WOTC finally comes to their senses and bans Sensei's Divining Top this month.

[rufus]

Lots of stuff messes with it.


Trickbind
Zur's Weirding
Uba Mask
Shared Fate
Possibility Storm
Magus of the Wheel
Jace's Archivist
Magus of the Jar
Venser, Shaper Savant
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir


Edit:


Mardu Charm

[Megadeus]

Lots of stuff messes with it.


Trickbind
Zur's Wierding
Uba Mask
Shared Fate
Possibility Storm
Magus of the Wheel
Jace's Archivist
Magus of the Jar
Venser Shaper Savant
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir


QFT. Jar effects too stronk against miracles. #FreeJar

[rufus]

QFT. Jar effects too stronk against miracles. #FreeJar

It is quite difficult to find answers that aren't blue though. If you can read the opponent, forcing a shuffle with Extirpate could be strong too.

[frafen]

I've won some games against miracles with the combination of bloodghast and darkblast. If you have the vampire in play, Darkblast is basically a one mana spell that counters terminus and swords to plowshares.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Aetherling seems good but no Legacy deck wants it... Well, maybe Miracles. :rolleyes:

[Mantis]

Squadron Hawk.

[Fox]

Surgical Extraction targeting Swords to Plowshares - probably the best way to invalidate Terminus if your creatures can beat 2/1s and 3/1s.

[rufus]

Surgical Extraction targeting Swords to Plowshares - probably the best way to invalidate Terminus if your creatures can beat 2/1s and 3/1s.

Do you go for Extirpate for the split second though?

[Dice_Box]

Open. Sorry for my haste.

[rufus]

So it seems like the answers fall into a number of categories:

Instant speed discard:

Mardu Charm
Magus of the Wheel
Vendilion Clique


Draw denial:

Uba Mask
Notion Theif


Forced Shuffle:

Surgical Extraction
Extirpate


Counterspells:

Invasive Surgery
Counterspell
Force of Will


Casting denial:

Gaddock Teeg
Meddling Mage
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir


Miracle trigger counters:

Stifle
Trickbind


Mass blink:

Planar Guide
Legion's Initiative


Proactive denial:

Slaughter Games


Mana denial:

Mana Short

[colo]

If Blinking Spirit cost 1WW or 2W, I'd play the shit out of it to hate on Terminus.

[H]

So it seems like the answers fall into a number of categories:
Counterspells:

Force of Will



Certainly Invasive Surgery should be on the list, right?

[Megadeus]

If Blinking Spirit cost 1WW or 2W, I'd play the shit out of it to hate on Terminus.

Eh. You'd blink it and it would get counterbalanced on the way back in. That's why I hate the deck. You want to go quick to get under counter balance but you don't want to get raped by terminus. Then you want to play kind of slow and not get wrathed and they just lock you out with CB or simply STP, snapcaster, STP

[Crimhead]

I want to test Flashfires in the Boil slots of my R/G Lands sideboard.

I know sorcery < instant, but it's usually white mana I'm trying to deny them. D&T is my only other difficult (fair) match; especially with the new Thalia coming (and don't get me started on the Imperial build), so as a bonus I could bring 'em in for that match too.

[Fox]

You can now add Unsubstantiate to the list, but again that's blue. You can undermine the wording of Terminus with Cellar Door, but that is fairly specific. Still, it's actually StP and Snapcaster targeting StP that's generally beating you.

[Crimhead]

You can now add Unsubstantiate to the list, but again that's blue. You can undermine the wording of Terminus with Cellar Door, but that is fairly specific. Still, it's actually StP and Snapcaster targeting StP that's generally beating you.
STP gives me 20 life, Terminus is much worse for me. Both cost :w: though, so killing all their plains prevents them from casting either.

[Fox]

STP gives me 20 life, Terminus is much worse for me. Both cost :w: though, so killing all their plains prevents them from casting either.
Regardless of either spell being used, you have no ability to interact with their hand. The fact of the matter is that you are playing against 8x :w: removal spells at instant speed. Your wincon as lands is porting them off of white mana on their turn. StP is better if you've stopped playing magic (Boseju), which is largely restricted to lands and OmniTell.

The other issue with naming blue answers to Terminus is that not only is blue more likely to deploy fewer threats, but the only card you care about in their deck is Counterbalance b/c it really doesn't matter what cards are in a deck if they have the same(ish) counter-suite as you [+3 SB Blasts]...but gain the ability to tap a land to counter anything in your hand. Sure your Stifle/Trickbind can stop the trigger, but if you didn't stop CB from resolving it never mattered.

[iatee]

The two best ways to deal with Terminus are:

- Not overextending.
- Dealing with Top instead. When Miracles doesn't have unlimited filtering, they'll only be able to find so many Terminuses. And they will rarely be able to play them at instant speed, only with an elaborate Brainstorm setup.

Playing junk cards in an attempt to beat one card in their deck is generally a poor strategy. Teeg is good though, if you can play GW.

[Fox]

Playing junk cards in an attempt to beat one card in their deck is generally a poor strategy. Teeg is good though, if you can play GW.
I have seen my fair share of games where the Teegmeister comes down to beat miracles...and it pretty much never works. Even if you had Vial on 2, I wouldn't consider this in any way a good answer unless somehow you've dealt with all copies of StP. Even in magical christmas land where you have 1-2x Mother of Runes active and Teeg comes down, you still don't have a valid attacker.

[iatee]

I mean sure, every answer has an answer, but Teeg can be protected by Karakas and almost every Teeg deck can play Karakas. (Or Mom.)

I don't think Teeg is strong enough to justify splashing G or W if you don't already play both colors, but if you do it's not a bad card just because sometimes they have STP.

[Finn]

Fox, I do not mean this in a nasty way, but a lot of people play D+T poorly. Misusing Teeg is a prime example. Miracles has no hand destruction or even Gitaxian Probe, so you can safely keep Gaddock Teeg in your hand for a bit. Miracles players will often feel that they need to be rid of Thalia sooner rather than later. Same with Mirran Crusader, Phyrexian Revoker (Top), Mangara, Mother of Runes, and so on. They can't really sandbag Swords to Plowshares. And Terminus is not a turn 2 play. You have to pick your moment to cast it because it is more valuable than most of the other creatures.

I other words, D+T is not a one-trick pony, so give 'em something else to plough. Gaddock Teeg is simply a significant upgrade in the Miracles matchup. And he is fantastic at it. Too bad the green splash ultimately is not worth it in most metas.

[square_two]

Teeg is great when paired with Karakas as others have said...but also Chalice.

I was running a Junk Stompy list earlier this year that had a good record against Miracles. Toss together Chalice, Stoneforge w/ equipment (making any creature or fetch into single Arbor a viable threat to hold equipment), Teeg, Siege Rhino/Thragtusk, GSZ with Sigarda as the top end. Combat walkers might also fit in naturally to either make bodies to carry equipment, and just pressure Miracles in general. I'm pretty sure I used Mox Diamonds/Loam as acceleration instead of Veteran Explorers. Basically other ramp + Chalice instead of Nic Fit's use of Veteran + Cabal Therapy disruption. It's quite a bit of fun though.

[Fox]

Fox, I do not mean this in a nasty way, but a lot of people play D+T poorly. Misusing Teeg is a prime example. Miracles has no hand destruction or even Gitaxian Probe, so you can safely keep Gaddock Teeg in your hand for a bit. Miracles players will often feel that they need to be rid of Thalia sooner rather than later. Same with Mirran Crusader, Phyrexian Revoker (Top), Mangara, Mother of Runes, and so on. They can't really sandbag Swords to Plowshares. And Terminus is not a turn 2 play. You have to pick your moment to cast it because it is more valuable than most of the other creatures.

I other words, D+T is not a one-trick pony, so give 'em something else to plough. Gaddock Teeg is simply a significant upgrade in the Miracles matchup. And he is fantastic at it. Too bad the green splash ultimately is not worth it in most metas.
So it's not really the first StP that's the problem right, it's hits a not-Teeg creature. Now there are 3x StP in the deck that sees ~6 cards per fetch and all versions run at least 2x Snapcaster. The odds are so stacked against Teeg stopping anything - especially if it ever attacks - unless you have x=1 Chalice as @square_two notes (against 2-3 W//T) or more effectively Surgical Extraction or Extirpate to deal with StP.

[rufus]

Certainly Invasive Surgery should be on the list, right?

Yeah, it was meant to be an overview, not a comprehensive list. Even so, that does seem compelling.

Another dimension for messing with miracles would be Mana Short.

[Finn]

Yeah, it was meant to be an overview, not a comprehensive list. Even so, that does seem compelling.

Another dimension for messing with miracles would be Mana Short.

By Jove, you should get a gold star or a cheat code for god mode or something for just mentioning Mana Short in a competitive discussion. In fact, ya know what? Ima send some real dime hookers your way tonight. How many do you think you could handle?

I do want to know about why Terminus has so many panties in a bunch though. I thought it was marginally more successful than other tier 1 decks, even if it has been in the number 1 spot most of the time. Is this not true?

[Megadeus]

So it's not really the first StP that's the problem right, it's hits a not-Teeg creature. Now there are 3x StP in the deck that sees ~6 cards per fetch and all versions run at least 2x Snapcaster. The odds are so stacked against Teeg stopping anything - especially if it ever attacks - unless you have x=1 Chalice as @square_two notes (against 2-3 W//T) or more effectively Surgical Extraction or Extirpate to deal with StP.

This. Or they just find Councils judgement. So often I get down a walker that I think will win me the game and they simply find the one of Councils Judgement. Or Teeg in a world of 4X STP, 2-3X Snapcaster, and a judgement or two. It's a miserable slog

[Bosque]

Am I the only one that actually enjoys playing against Miracles? I enjoy the control grind, finding ways out, and also playing cards that do quite well against Terminus, Top and Counterbalance.

[rufus]

By Jove, you should get a gold star or a cheat code for god mode or something for just mentioning Mana Short in a competitive discussion. In fact, ya know what? Ima send some real dime hookers your way tonight. How many do you think you could handle? ...

In a format where all the mana is from lands, Mana Short is a beating. I remember decks that used it and Power Sink to ruin people's days. (Against miracles, it's liable to get countered though.)

[Megadeus]

Am I the only one that actually enjoys playing against Miracles? I enjoy the control grind, finding ways out, and also playing cards that do quite well against Terminus, Top and Counterbalance.

It does provide mostly interesting games in the sense that there are a significant amount of decisions to be made. It's just the fact that I currently play moms, teeg, pridemage, Thalia, and I board in something like 6-8 cards in the match up and still don't feel like my odds are great.

[aluisiocsantos]

Null Rod (for top) and Trinisphere are my all-time favourites.

[bruizar]

Squadron Hawk.

qft

[ESG]

I thought it was marginally more successful than other tier 1 decks, even if it has been in the number 1 spot most of the time. Is this not true?

Finn, can you tell us the last time you played a match of Legacy?

[Finn]

Finn, can you tell us the last time you played a match of Legacy?

May 2012

[Crimhead]

Am I the only one that actually enjoys playing against Miracles? I enjoy the control grind, finding ways out, and also playing cards that do quite well against Terminus, Top and Counterbalance.
Miracles matches are fascinating, but sometimes they can be tedious too. Pairing against Miracles on round four of a five or six round event can be a bit overwhelming; particularly when I'm running hot and can anticipate another three hour of Legacy.

I play Lands, which has a decent chance to beat Miracles (probably close to 50/50, depending on the builds). I can only imagine how the match feels to a deck that has a very small chance of winning after an equally long and grueling fight.

But Miracles is a unique match for me, in that it's pretty much the only (non-combo) deck I ever face that can't really put pressure on me. I even board out Mazes. So while Miracles is not always a deck I'm enthusiastic to face, I would certainly miss it.

[ESG]

May 2012

Seems about right. You should borrow a deck and jam games against Miracles.

[maraxusofkelds]

Don't forget if they already have a terminus in the graveyard, you can wait until the miracle trigger occurs and then surgical extraction the one in their graveyard to hit the one in their hand before they can cast it.

[Crimhead]

Don't forget if they already have a terminus in the graveyard, you can wait until the miracle trigger occurs and then surgical extraction the one in their graveyard to hit the one in their hand before they can cast it.
For decks that can run it, Extirpate might be even better.

[Barook]

For decks that can run it, Extirpate might be even better.
As nice as the bonus of Split Second is, there are worlds between 1 and 0 mana.

[Crimhead]

As nice as the bonus of Split Second is, there are worlds between 1 and 0 mana.
Also worlds between a blind flip and a top activation.

[Mr. Safety]

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't Krosan Grip really good against miracles (top and cb)? They can blind flip a judgment/other 3 drop but that is the breaks sometimes.

Someone else mentioned not overextending too. That has worked for me in the past with lingering souls, which I think is good against terminus in general.

[Fox]

Don't forget if they already have a terminus in the graveyard, you can wait until the miracle trigger occurs and then surgical extraction the one in their graveyard to hit the one in their hand before they can cast it.
Ask yourself what is on top of their deck when you target the Terminus in the yard to hit the one in the hand making the miracle trigger. It could be Extirpate, but it still just got killed by SDT/CB.