[Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

[Einherjer]

Hey guys,

here's the first part of my article (http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-schönegger/legacy-lessons-how-to-kill-miracles-1) on how to kill Miracles. :)

Greetings

[sdematt]

Hey guys,

here's the first part of my article (http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-schönegger/legacy-lessons-how-to-kill-miracles-1) on how to kill Miracles. :)

Greetings

Goddamn it, I just recorded a podcast about this same thing :P Better release it then, huh? :P

[Barook]

The article was well-written and in-detail, but I was disappointed in the end. It misses is the actual "meat". This was an appetizer at best.

Joe Lossett claimed that Miracles only dominates because people don't pack enough hate for it. What people want and need are sideboard bombs and general strategies that make it possible to hate Miracles out of the metagame (and not just going ~50/50 with it).

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnqTXTDWIAACbkR.jpg

This kind of dominance that Miracles has lately needs to be stopped - and that should the focus of the series. Nuances of what to counter when doesn't even help anybody who isn't playing blue.

For future articles, I would concentrate on the prime anti-Miracle strategies first and then go into details second.

[Julian23]

The article I am hoping for is the one that actually addresses the whole "people aren't respecting/SBing enough against" Miracles with substacne. Joe is a great guy and probably one of the most reasonable people to talk to in Legacy, but I have a hard time seeing beyond those cryptic messages he and others repeat.

The second part that's never addressed is that most of the decks/cards that are acceptably good vs Miracles, are usually otherwise rather terrible decks. Eldrazi has been the first to step out of that light and become an overall really strong deck with a good Miracles matchup. I also like what Jona is doing with his 3 Winter Orbs in Canadian, even though I have little experience with that.

[dte]

The article was well-written and in-detail, but I was disappointed in the end. It misses is the actual "meat". This was an appetizer at best.

Joe Lossett claimed that Miracles only dominates because people don't pack enough hate for it. What people want and need are sideboard bombs and general strategies that make it possible to hate Miracles out of the metagame (and not just going ~50/50 with it).
[...]
This kind of dominance that Miracles has lately needs to be stopped - and that should the focus of the series. Nuances of what to counter when doesn't even help anybody who isn't playing blue.

For future articles, I would concentrate on the prime anti-Miracle strategies first and then go into details second.

I disagree with that.
From what I ave seen, most people don't need to know about which card they should have in they 75 to beat miracle, but more about how to play them.

A comprehensive article of how to play against miracle and why is a very good thing.
I'm looking forward to see the next parts.

[Lemnear]

I don't know what to think here, as the article (please correct me, if I am wrong here), tries to tell me "Don't mess with Miracles' early game. Let them gain full card qualiy via SDT and Brainstorm shuffling back Miracle spells. Try to fight their gamebreakers only, ignoring that they had turns of unmolested cantripping/Topspinning to sculpt their hand."

Did I miss something important here?

[dte]

I don't know what to think here, as the article (please correct me, if I am wrong here), tries to tell me "Don't mess with Miracles' early game. Let them gain full card qualiy via SDT and Brainstorm shuffling back Miracle spells. Try to fight their gamebreakers only, ignoring that they had turns of unmolested cantripping/Topspinning to sculpt their hand."

Did I miss something important here?

I understood it more as "in which cases should you lose CA (the article focuses on FoW, saying that daze/pierce on SDT/BS are often good) to counter BS/SDT?
Are you sure it is worth it?"

So for me it is more an advice of not throwing everything away in the first couple of turns, on the assumption that anyway, lategame is for miracle.
Assuming that makes it come true, as you play accordingly and do not have anything anymore to fight in lategame.

[Spam]

I disagree with that.
From what I ave seen, most people don't need to know about which card they should have in they 75 to beat miracle, but more about how to play them.

A comprehensive article of how to play against miracle and why is a very good thing.
I'm looking forward to see the next parts.
I agree.
I think a lot of work about beating miracles is about taxing your opponent's mind rather than just the deck. Besides, every article that tries to improve you playing abilities is always welcome.
P.s. I hope to we can also touch on discard spells against the deck.

[Lemnear]

I understood it more as "in which cases should you lose CA (the article focuses on FoW, saying that daze/pierce on SDT/BS are often good) to counter BS/SDT?
Are you sure it is worth it?"

So for me it is more an advice of not throwing everything away in the first couple of turns, on the assumption that anyway, lategame is for miracle.
Assuming that makes it come true, as you play accordingly and do not have anything anymore to fight in lategame.

The problem is, that you don't win against SDT/Countertop/Jace in the long run and allowing Miracles to assemble that without resistance, seems kinda wack for me. Beyond that, the article dodges the important questions of how to tackle Miracles with non-Decay decks which are the ones pushed out of the format with Miracles around. "Should I FoW the first Brainstorm/SDT?" is a bit limited. I hope for more practical, future volumes

[dte]

The problem is, that you don't win against SDT/Countertop/Jace in the long run and allowing Miracles to assemble that without resistance, seems kinda wack for me. Beyond that, the article dodges the important questions of how to tackle Miracles with non-Decay decks which are the ones pushed out of the format with Miracles around. "Should I FoW the first Brainstorm/SDT?" is a bit limited. I hope for more practical, future volumes

I've won my share amount of games after the aforementioned card resolved.
The thing is, if you think that you'll never win in the lategame because you play accordingly. Then your experience will tell you that you have to try to win in the early game, as you never win in the late one.

Otherwise, the article says "part I". And made it clear that there will be a follow up.

To my mind, if there was an easy way to crush miracle that can be implemented in most decks without giving away too much, it would have been discovered since a while.
If there was an obvious way to handle how to answer miracles game situations, it would also be widely known.

But learning how to play in a better way against miracle will help the players that regularly say that they have an abysmal miracle MU. Players who says that do not need new cars that break miracle to pieces, but to understand how to play their cards in a more efficient way.

[Barook]

Beyond that, the article dodges the important questions of how to tackle Miracles with non-Decay decks which are the ones pushed out of the format with Miracles around.
Aside from Decay and counters, the only way to tackle it are uncounterable, "hasty" creatures - which are commonly achieved with EoT Vial or haste + Cavern of Souls. There are other rare cases like hardcast Emrakuls from 12Post (which is also uncounterable + has pseudo haste), but it always comes down to not counterable + being able to attack immediately.

[Finn]

Einherjer, I don't recall if I gave you a hard time on your last article, but you need an editor, dude. You know your stuff, but the article is hard to read to the point that I can't even form opinions on the merits of the ideas you cover.

examples:
1. You are telling us not to FoW Top. That sounds very strange to me, and probably to a lot of people, though you may very well be correct. You apparently knew this would be news since we all know how critical the Top is to the success of that deck. Given how provocative a position that is, you really need more than the pittance of reasoning you supplied to back up that claim. And then you go on to give us paragraphs on the exceptions. This design makes it hard to figure out what message you are sending to the point that I am not even sure if I believe you.

2. You are telling us that Miracles is two decks in one, or some such. I don't really see any description of this. If there is any, it is not at all sufficient to balance the amount of words you spend telling us that this is so. I kept looking for the part that ties this again, provocative claim, only to be disappointed that the article ended with this remaining only a claim.

3. You are telling us that Miracles uses its cantrips as more than "filler". Honestly, I can make that argument for probably every cantripping deck in the format. If you mean that Brainstorm sets up miraculous draws, we got that. Is there more to this position? Once again, you highlight this provocative claim and don't deliver on the evidence. It's like reading Donald Trump on Magic theory.

4. There are other examples. The entire article is like this...

Great ideas. Terrible execution. I got to the end and I felt as if I got an hors d'oeuvre, but then no meal. (Saving it for part 2 is not good enough since you have a conclusion when none can be drawn.) All of my articles got edited. They all needed it too. Every professional writer is dependent upon an editor. All of them. Just get a friend to help you with this; someone with some literary chops.

[Einherjer]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

Allow me to respond to a few of the posts.

1) I have a very strict word limit, and I typically exceed it by 500-1000 words, which is probably as far as I can go. So I have several options. Write "Top 10 ways to beat Miracles" or try and make a multi-part article-series. I did decide that the second would be more useful to pretty much everyone.

2) Splitting it up in many points comes with several downsides, most of which you guys have mentioned already. I will try to address all of this over the course of the next articles.

3) Thanks for letting me know that the concept(s) were poorly explained, I'll focus on less concepts per article and flesh out my points more.

Thanks. :)

Greetings

[jmlima]

If you want the take on the article of someone new(ish) to the format, it was:

Play blue if you want to win.

Which is no news, but IMO, seems far more worrying than Miracles being top dog.

But again, what do I know? Like Mr Snow, nothing.

[iatee]

Things I'd like to see:

- Sideboard cards you think are actually effective, and how to best use them
- Sideboard cards you don't think are actually effective
- Cards you'd suggest players side out
- When and what to Stifle/Daze/Port/Wasteland
- Keeping track of opponent's known vs unknown information as the non-Miracle player and risk assessment when it comes to playing creatures into Terminus, spells into a live Counterbalance etc.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Mr Snow
*ahem*

Lord Commander, King in the North

[btm10]

The article I am hoping for is the one that actually addresses the whole "people aren't respecting/SBing enough against" Miracles with substacne. Joe is a great guy and probably one of the most reasonable people to talk to in Legacy, but I have a hard time seeing beyond those cryptic messages he and others repeat.

Maybe this has something to do with the typical SB hate that Joe sees and he doesn't take the time to contextualize people's choices and rather thinks they're defaulting to suboptimal cards. For instance, I remember him mentioning on his stream that the CMC difference between Null Rod and Pithing Needle made Null Rod better against Miracles and despite that he still saw more Needles than Null Rods. There are reasons for this: some decks can't run Null Rod, some need the extra interaction against lands, Sneak Attack, or Planeswalkers, and others just see more EV in going for a broad rather than narrow answer in the board. This is a somewhat roundabout way of saying that there aren't many real haymakers against Miracles that also check enough boxes against other decks to make them worth running in an open meta.



The second part that's never addressed is that most of the decks/cards that are acceptably good vs Miracles, are usually otherwise rather terrible decks. Eldrazi has been the first to step out of that light and become an overall really strong deck with a good Miracles matchup. I also like what Jona is doing with his 3 Winter Orbs in Canadian, even though I have little experience with that.

Jon's version of RUG is pretty solid, though it does give up some value against decks like Shardless and Eldrazi to improve its Miracles matchup. As for decks that are otherwise good against Miracles, I think that depends on how you're defining 'good'. If it's 60+%, then I agree that most decks hitting that number tend to be bad against the field. Conversely, decks like Shardless and Loam that have favorable (but not lopsided) matchups against Miracles are fine general meta calls, but unlike Miracles are susceptible to being hated out by generically useful sideboard hate like Ruination or Blood Moon in a way that Miracles isn't.

[Stevestamopz]

Just a content thing and adding to what others said (especially what Finn said), please try and tone down the use of overly verbose language. Sentence's such as;

"One may contest which cards are more powerful in their given field of application, and I'm not disputing the fact that such a claim could be made."

really do not add much to what you're trying to say, and by the end of the article I feel like I've taken in nothing because I've spent all my time bobbing and weaving around the pointlessly extravagant writing.

Please don't take this as a sign of rudeness, I'm glad you're back to writing and I recognise that English isn't your first language, but your point will be heard much clearer if you tone down the background noise.

[ESG]

This is a somewhat roundabout way of saying that there aren't many real haymakers against Miracles that also check enough boxes against other decks to make them worth running in an open meta.

This is the true heart of the argument, and probably the card that comes closest is Chalice of the Void. The clear problem with Chalice is that you can't run 1-drops, which are almost always the best cards in the format due to mana efficiency.

I have played to beat Miracles for close to two years now, and my record in that time is pretty strong, but I can say that Miracles has become stronger with almost every set release. The Delve cards from Khans were better exploited by other decks, but most releases have given Miracles new tools to shore up its weaknesses. I'll highlight what I feel are the most important ones in this evolution.

Wear/Tear: Before Wear/Tear, decks heavy on artifacts and enchantments were challenging for the Miracles player to fight. Miracles also got the bonus of having a superpowered card to float with Counterbalance (a CMC 1 that's also a CMC 2). MUD and Enchantress are two decks that have favorable matchups against Miracles, but the degree that these decks are favored has shifted. More importantly, decks that wanted to side in key artifact-based hate cards (like Null Rod) and enchantment-based hate cards (like Choke) can get 2-for-1'd. Card advantage is one of the minor weaknesses of Miracles -- this is something Philipp wrote about in an earlier article examining Miracles -- so cards that generate CA are boons for the deck. Being able to use one flexible sideboard card to answer multiple problem cards from an opposing deck is a powerful upgrade.

Council's Judgment: Planeswalkers were one of the best ways to attack Miracles before Council's Judgment. They are still good, but now Miracles has the ability to run a general answer card that also deals with hexproof and shroud. This made solutions like Mother of Runes plus Gaddock Teeg less reliable as a way to contain Miracles.

Rest in Peace: Miracles used to be very soft to graveyard-based decks. I used to have a lot of success with Dredge by grinding through games of Terminus, Swords to Plowshares, Surgical Extraction, and Snapcaster Mage to Dread Return a Sundering Titan and win with chip shots from various graveyard goons. That ended when Rest in Peace was printed and the grind plan became impossible. Similarly, the Loam decks I ran that were generally good against the rest of the field were hit very hard by Rest in Peace. Things like Worm Harvest and Raven's Crime used to be respectable against Miracles, but Rest in Peace is a true haymaker and entirely changes the game. It is true that some Miracles players skimp on this card or on any graveyard hate, but the card is prevalent enough that graveyard decks are weaker than they were before. Some Miracles players still play Rest in Peace in the main, sometimes paired with Helm of Obedience and/or Energy Field. I feel that these builds are weaker overall than the classic Schönegger list, but they absolutely steamroll graveyard-based decks.

Monastery Mentor: This is the biggest change of all the additions. Miracles was always a slow deck. Yes, sometimes a Turn 4 or Turn 5 Entreat the Angels would clean things up rapidly, but usually you could expect any given Miracles match to last much longer than that. Slaughter Games was briefly a strong card against Miracles, particularly in the time when the win conditions were only Jaces and Entreats. I won numerous matches casting multiple Slaughter Games on my Miracles opponents and removing win conditions. The addition of Monastery Mentor meant that going after the win condition became a weaker plan, because now there was a greater risk of naming the wrong win condition and there was a chance of a real win condition resolving before Turn 4. Monastery Mentor has enabled Miracles to switch roles and be the aggressor, generating free Overruns shortly after the turn or two of countering spells in the early game. This made lack of card advantage mean much less to Miracles, since the axis could switch from control to beatdown and render the opponent's surplus cards useless unless they interacted immediately with the Mentor. Currently, I feel that the strongest nonblue answer cards are Abrupt Decay, Sudden Shock, and Sulfur Elemental, but the presence of Monastery Mentor in a large number of Miracles builds -- but not all of them -- leaves the nonblue player with pieces that don't pull their weight in other matchups, as btm10 alluded to in his post.

Containment Priest is an honorable mention. It was yet another card that attacked multiple angles, weakening Aether Vial and Dredge and Green Sun's Zenith for Gaddock Teeg or a target like Wren's Run Packmaster or Primeval Titan. It sees some play but is not a mainstay.


I'm also going to touch on a few of Miracles' core problem pieces because I view these as the reason for Miracles' continued dominance. Miracles is mainly a difficult deck to fight against because it's a pile of great and flexible Magic cards.

* Terminus is an unreasonably cheap sweeper that is superior to Wrath of God in that deprives graveyard-based decks of creatures. This has relevance all the way down to things like Scavenging Ooze, which would otherwise be better out of decks like Elves or Maverick. There are very few nonblue cards that interact with Terminus. This is a key problem. Manlands are good but slow, except for Inkmoth Nexus. Gaddock Teeg is strong when protected. Thragtusk can generate a dude when it leaves play. Sundering Titan can blow up lands when it leaves play. Ultimately, my experience has shown me that the most successful way to fight Terminus is to play blue cards: Force of Will, Stifle, Vendilion Clique, Invasive Surgery, Swan Song, Trickbind. The next-best way is to play a strategy that relies on noncreatures.

* Sensei's Divining Top is very difficult to interact with due to its ability to bounce itself. It provides insane card selection and is played by a number of nonblue decks, but it is best in Miracles due to comboing with Counterbalance and enabling instant-speed Miracle spells. Chalice of the Void is great when played preemptively, but it's much weaker when there is already a Top in play. Answering a resolved Sensei's Divining Top is a key problem for the format. My experience has shown me that attacking lands and activated abilities can be successful when accompanied by pressure. Broad strokes like Suppression Field exist but are difficult to take advantage of, and despite how heavy on fetchlands Legacy is, Suppression Field doesn't do enough against the field to be called up for duty. Null Rod and Pithing Needle are played the most, and Winter Orb is reasonable in some decks. Damping Matrix is playable but slow. Land destruction is decent, but the Top is very good at digging for land, and fetchlands can be left uncracked to guard against Sinkhole or Vindicate. Once again, blue does it better here, with Stifle being a way to turn off Miracles and also being able to attack lands in situations when Miracles is land-light.

* Counterbalance is very difficult to interact with due to its ability to protect itself, frequently even without a Top. This is the primary reason that Abrupt Decay has become the removal spell of choice. The best way to fight Counterbalance is to play uncounterable spells or lands. Currently the best of these are Cavern of Souls, Abrupt Decay, Exquisite Firecraft, Emrakul, and Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Valakut is fringe but is playable in a deck built around it. Counterbalance is a key problem for the format because most decks play a low curve due to the speed of the format. Playing more cards with higher converted mana costs is not a good strategy anymore -- if it ever was -- due to Monastery Mentor being able to close out a game so swiftly. In order to leverage a higher end, you have to greatly speed up your mana production so that your strong higher-CMC cards are online before Miracles can cantrip into an answer for all of them. This is one of the reasons why decks that run Cloudpost are able to have good matchups. By contrast, symmetrical mana producers like Veteran Explorer often benefit the Miracles player just as much. Still, resolving spells through Counterbalance is only part of the equation.

* Counterspell lines up just as well against Natural Order as it does against Stoneforge Mystic or Argothian Enchantress or Null Rod or Armageddon. Beating Counterspell usually requires greater threat density or superior mana efficiency. Both of these must be considered in tandem with Counterbalance, which excels at locking out zero-mana and one-mana spells. Counterspell is a key card in answering opposing problem cards. When you consider that Miracles begins the game with six or seven or more all-purpose answer cards, you must question how many threats your deck can present. Is it greater than their number of answers, and is that true after sideboarding?

* Force of Will is the pinnacle of flexible answers. Most decks run sideboard cards to attack Miracles, but Force of Will is able to answer almost all of them. Playing powerful cards on the first turn of the game is a good strategy against Miracles, but Force of Will is able to stop all of these. This is why games that involve a resolved Turn 1 Chalice of the Void or a resolved Turn 1 Trinisphere play out so much differently than the ones where Miracles has a Force of Will. This card is also the biggest reason why Black Vise is not playable. One Force of Will answers not only the first copy; it ensures that hand size will be low enough that additional copies of Black Vise will not be powerful. Unlike Counterspell, mana efficiency doesn't work here as a trump to Force of Will, but greater threat density does. A deck like Burn, where most cards have equal value, is a way to weaken Force of Will.

My conclusion has been that blue-based decks are more able to fight Miracles than nonblue decks are due to the advantage of Force of Will and the superiority of stack-based interaction, although there are still a number of strong and playable nonblue decks in the format. I personally feel that Miracles is overpowered and that we are long overdue for bannings in this format (not just in Miracles), but I am also OK with the format as it is.

[maharis]

Everyone needs to read ESG and btm10's posts. Excellent breakdown of the reason people "just don't play enough sideboard hate." I've had my Null Rods Wear/Teared plenty of times. I've even seen it in the main once or twice because it's value off Counterbalance and in the mirror (which is getting increasingly popular).

Miracles is able to cheat on lands in a way no control deck ever has before because of the cantrip cartel and the miracle cost on Terminus. (That's why I'm even dubious of the strength of Winter Orb against the deck.) That also means it can play more anti-hate cards or cards like Back to Basics that mess up the decks that are supposed to have good matchups.

[Lemnear]

* Terminus is an unreasonably cheap sweeper that is superior to Wrath of God in that deprives graveyard-based decks of creatures. This has relevance all the way down to things like Scavenging Ooze, which would otherwise be better out of decks like Elves or Maverick. There are very few nonblue cards that interact with Terminus. This is a key problem. Manlands are good but slow, except for Inkmoth Nexus. Gaddock Teeg is strong when protected. Thragtusk can generate a dude when it leaves play. Sundering Titan can blow up lands when it leaves play. Ultimately, my experience has shown me that the most successful way to fight Terminus is to play blue cards: Force of Will, Stifle, Vendilion Clique, Invasive Surgery, Swan Song, Trickbind. The next-best way is to play a strategy that relies on noncreatures.

I disagree here. The reason Terminus is that powerful isn't the cost, but the possible instant speed. I believe, if WotC is powercreeping creatures for years, 4cc removal like the classic Wrath of God is too slow to give the control player any strategic option. The issue with Terminus is, that it also covers a lot of classic cluntermeasures to sweepers, like Flash-creatures, Vial or Manlands. Its ridiculous that the sorcery speed cost is higher than playing it instant speed, which is much more powerful which we know since [Rout]

[owerbart]

I remember the first time someone told me that you could miracle in your opponent's step, i thought it was a bunch of crap but well, here we are now.

I agree with ESG in that Miracles greatest strenght is the fact that not only it gets better as more useful cards are printed, but also because it's not so easy to hate out. I agree that by far the best card against Miracles has to be Chalice of the Void.

I've been consistently beating Miracles with my Braids Stax deck, because you can go for a quick chalice and then your non-creature permanents are going to put some heavy work, Smokestack can really push miracles out of the game if you can get to tick it quickly.

Also another advantagr of Miracles is that it's quasi immune to discard once you have top out, and the fact that they can play a grindy game or just a two card combo (top + counterbalance) that like it or not, it's going to be lights out against a big part of the field.

[dte]

Just a content thing and adding to what others said (especially what Finn said), please try and tone down the use of overly verbose language. Sentence's such as;

"One may contest which cards are more powerful in their given field of application, and I'm not disputing the fact that such a claim could be made."

really do not add much to what you're trying to say, and by the end of the article I feel like I've taken in nothing because I've spent all my time bobbing and weaving around the pointlessly extravagant writing.

Please don't take this as a sign of rudeness, I'm glad you're back to writing and I recognise that English isn't your first language, but your point will be heard much clearer if you tone down the background noise.

I'm sorry but I do not get what's wrong with the sentence that you quoted?
Sounds pretty clear to me, but I'm not a native speaker as well, so I am interested by knowing what's wrong with it in order to improve my English as well.

[MorphBerlin]

Not overly impressed by this article, but I like Phillipp's articles so I am hoping for the other parts.

All I am reading out of this is, that STD and Brainstorm are both busted in this deck, and no matter if you counter them or not you can get busted either way..

[Mr Miagi]

TBH the article did not give many pointers how to actually beat mircales (but I guess this will be adressed in the future), it felt more of a sad, last ditched effort not to ban somebody's pet deck. Fact is miracles sees so many cards it can answer everything, efficiently I may add. Miracles used to have troubles with the win conditions, but now with the introduction of the m. mentor this is as seasy as spining few tops, or not even that, just cantrfip counter something and you are good to go. Even 12post, althought stil favorable, can lose ground to due to quick mentor kills.

Sorry Philip, miracles takes the best of everything, can attack and defend on all axis (well except graveyard I suppose) and gives middle finger to all other decks who should now all of a sudden play a game how to beat miracles. But this is in its self a trap, illusion as it's an uphill battle which you will eventually lose. I don't want all other decks loosing identity or presence because of one deck. Not really sure why one should defend it so heavily, except for personal reasons.

[JosephK]

I'm sorry but I do not get what's wrong with the sentence that you quoted ?
Sounds pretty clear to me, but I'm not a native speaker as well, so I am interested by knowing what's wrong with it in order to improve my English as well.

It's because Stevestamopz is polite. The choice of words and the stylistic preference of the author let us expect a substancial and concise content. And some are disappointed.
When you're trying to understand the article, it comes down to this :


Why is miracle strong ?
It's not only because they play counterbalance and Terminus (one may argue...a claim could be made), it's because they play blue, specifically cantrips.
It's not only because they play cantrips (rug also does), it's because of their inner divisiveness.

Okay, so be it, the inner diviseness. In other words, you have 2 clear "divisions", groups or categories of cards which fill specific roles. It's true in almost every legacy deck, but even more so in control decks, that-is-to-say Miracles in Legacy.
Therefore, better deal with the part which is common to them, "the intersection" or the cantrip cartel.

The rest of the article is focusing on the cantrips that allow to choose cards from these 2 groups in a Miracle vs Blue MU : should we counter the cantrips or the business spells, depending on your game plan.


Maybe I didn't understand the article ; but if it is the case, I'm not alone. This is what I understood in

What makes Miracles stand out is its inner divisiveness, which seems to be a rather unique feature. And in order to overcome such a divisiveness, the intersection between the two parts is crucial.
Only one sentence, just after the point about The Rock and Junk, I'm sorry and all, to explain why Miracle stands out. It is indeed disappointing. But I agree that it isn't an easy task and the best way to explain it is to do it with examples, as it is done afterwards.

But the "inner diviseness" isn't what makes Miracle stand out. This inner divisiveness is common to every control deck across all formats. And as soon as you're trying to build a control deck in Legacy which isn't Miracle, it doesn't work, although you can have an inner divisiveness. The real power comes from its tools, cb/top and terminus/top, but it is true that you have to perfectly understand how cantrips are played in Miracle to beat it, more than any other deck in legacy, control or not.

[Lemnear]

Miracles is a split deck and one half Anti-Creature (Plows & Terminus) and the other half is Anti-Combo (Counterbalance & FoW) with the option to reduce/strengthen one or the other aspect in postboard games, with Brainstorm, Ponder, SDT gluing both halfs together while ensuring that you draw the right half in each distinctive matchup so you are not stranded with Plows against Storm or Counterbalance against Eldrazi. I think that sums up 2/3 of the article in one sentence.

The remaining talk was about countering SDT/BS which is not only a very narrow, but incredible complex topic, not worked out at all. Giving T1 SDT or the classic "T2 BS into fetch" a free go, is a potential gamebreaking moment, deserving more context

[Lormador]

Well, call me a fanboy, but I like articles like this. It's a noble attempt at a complex subject, and it's only part one. It's right to start with the bread and butter plays like this before we get into the deck choice and sideboard aspects of it. I've seen a lot of folks take the position that a few good sideboard cards should enable them to beat Miracles handily, then lean on these too heavily and throw the match by neglecting value elsewhere. Philip, right from the outset, is trying to teach folks how to get maximum value from all of their cards against THE deck to beat. Opening the discussion with the statement of the theory of the deck (the most powerful answers combined with the best selection) might seem trite to very experienced players, but it's not a bad way to start the article series. It seems natural to me, anyway, because I approach the game the same way (only less well).

[btm10]

I'm sorry but I do not get what's wrong with the sentence that you quoted?
Sounds pretty clear to me, but I'm not a native speaker as well, so I am interested by knowing what's wrong with it in order to improve my English as well.

It's not a very economical way of saying "some cards may be more powerful in specific contexts", nor is it sufficiently evocative to make up for being wordy.

[Lemnear]

Philip, right from the outset, is trying to teach folks how to get maximum value from all of their cards against THE deck to beat.

In my opinion, the article misses just that. "How to profit from letting the Miracles player sculpt his/her draws/hand" is totally in the shadows and a mayor point of critique

[Hopo]

In my opinion, the article misses just that. "How to profit from letting the Miracles player sculpt his/her draws/hand" is totally in the shadows and a mayor point of critique

Did we read the same article? He explains the idea behind for example not countering the top and it has to do with the deck you are playing, among other things. Countering brainstorm to avoid terminus for a half a turn is many times not what you want to be doing as well. Written right there. He also states that the difficulty comes from determining what is actually going on, like is the brainstorm about to wrath you or just for digging or even bluffing.

And you all act like this wasn't just part one of a series of articles tackling the issue.

[Lemnear]

He explains the idea behind for example not countering the top and it has to do with the deck you are playing...

Yeah, like not playing a blue deck. Joke aside, it wasn't about different decks and neither contained examples, it was merely about if the T1 SDT is worth a FoW+Pitch and discussing that, it requires much more context than simply saying "depends on the deck". Giving 2-3 examples of how to answer the question of if to Force or not from different decks' perspective, would have been appreciated. Aside from that, I don't know why its about FoW in detail and not about "fighting over early SDT/Ponder/Brainstorm" in a more general context including Discard, softcounters, REB, etc

[Hopo]

The t1 top is interesting question when I play Infect. If I have the t2-t3 kill, it's usually only negative EV to fow top. If I have a grindy hand, it's more tempting and likely the right choice. Also, if I'm on play and my probe shows top, brainstorm and terminus, I might have to fow the bs or top even with a fast hand.

Of course the article wasn't thorough and complete. But are they ever? I think it was a good start.

[Zombie]

I disagree here. The reason Terminus is that powerful isn't the cost, but the possible instant speed. I believe, if WotC is powercreeping creatures for years, 4cc removal like the classic Wrath of God is too slow to give the control player any strategic option. The issue with Terminus is, that it also covers a lot of classic cluntermeasures to sweepers, like Flash-creatures, Vial or Manlands. Its ridiculous that the sorcery speed cost is higher than playing it instant speed, which is much more powerful which we know since [Rout]

The cost is influential as well - if you play Terminus on your own turn, you still have plenty of mana to make your own plays. This dynamic doesn't exist with 4-5 mana Wraths until very very very late into the game, and requires work to establish with Firespout/Pyroclasm. That is to say, Wrath=>JTMS is brutal.

[Barook]

ESG pointed out something very important - Miracles has various cards that are extremely hard to deal with for different reasons (mainly CB, Terminus and Top) outside of countering them. It also didn't help that Miracles started getting new cards that answer previous problems for the deck very efficiently.

As for "playing against Miracles" section, signs for an upcoming Terminus for the broad masses would be nice. I've seen enough Legacy streamers who were completely oblivious when a Miracle player sets up a blatantly obvious Terminus.


I disagree here. The reason Terminus is that powerful isn't the cost, but the possible instant speed.
I disagree on that. Terminus is strong for three reasons:

a) Instant speed is a major problem. E.g. Elves would have less trouble if they could just combo off without the threat of Terminus invalidating their entire turn and investments.
b) Cost. Saying the cost isn't a major deal is a grave mistake. Not only does it enable sweeping as early as T2, but it also doesn't really care about mana denial. Try to fire of a Supreme Verdict when taxed and under mana denial from Port compared to a Terminus.
c) Creatures are put to the bottom. Outside of very rare exceptions like Thragtusk, there's zero counter play against the bottom putting as it's a gapping design hole. This hurts alot, as Wizards gets better at printing indestructible protection cards.

[Crimhead]

I don't want all other decks loosing identity or presence because of one deck.
Don't you think this is just a little bit much?

DTB currently has seven distinct decks:

1 Control deck
1 Midrange deck
1 Tempo deck
1 Aggro deck
2 combo decks
1 Aggro/Prison deck.
On top of that, most people consider Lands to be tier one and give it a "pass" on missing DTB due to supply issues.

Your going "chicken little" on us and spittinging in the face of facts.

Is Miracles too powerful and consistent for the format? Maybe. Is it warping the format to the point of "all other decks loosing identity or presence"? lmfao!

If that's your assessment of the current meta, no article will ever please you.

[Mr Miagi]

Well, if they are not loosing identity (god knows legacy players can jam same deck regardless of the meta or "tierness" or just becasue it's good enoug for their one monthly event if at all) they are loosing the game.. eventually. Even if they have the illusion they are playing to win. that's pretty much what I wanted to say.

[Crimhead]

Well, if they are not loosing identity (god knows legacy players can jam same deck regardless of the meta or "tierness" or just becasue it's good enoug for their one monthly event if at all) they are loosing the game.. eventually. Even if they have the illusion they are playing to win. that's pretty much what I wanted to say.
So, your complaint is that tier-two decks aren't good enough?

[Mr Miagi]

So, your complaint that tier-two decks aren't good enough?
Not really what I said and meant but to some degree yeah, miracles bosses lots of other decks to tier 2.

[HSCK]

So, your complaint is that tier-two decks aren't good enough?

Your entire defense of Miracles is that there has to be a deck that has few creatures.

[Crimhead]

Your entire defense of Miracles is that there has to be a deck that has few creatures.
First, that would be a piss poor defense, as Storm and Lands play zero creatures.
Second, I'm not actually defending Miracles! Not in this discussion.

I'm critiquing the absurd assertion that it cause all other decks to lose identity or presence. I've said nothing else.


Not really what I said and meant.You basically said that people are jamming subpar decks at monthly events and sometimes tricking themselves into thinking those decks are actually good.

This has always been true and will always be true. There will always be tier-two decks, and there will always be scrubs at local weekly and monthly events. That might not be what you meant, but it's certainly what you said!

[colo]

c) Creatures are put to the bottom. Outside of very rare exceptions like Thragtusk, there's zero counter play against the bottom putting as it's a gapping design hole. This hurts alot, as Wizards gets better at printing indestructible protection cards.

This is actually the thing that I hate about Terminus the most. Never mind an instant-speed 1CMC board-wipe, but the fact that you are simply NEVER going to see the removed critters again and cannot protect (or even recycle them as resources in your graveyard, or reanimate them) them in any reasonable way is what makes it so back-breakinginly hard to deal with, in my opinion.

[mistercakes]

what are everyone's thoughts on relying on surgical extraction as a way to deal with terminus after the first one has been cast? i feel like most miracles players jump the gun on the first one if there are some reasonable early game threats.

[square_two]

This is actually the thing that I hate about Terminus the most. Never mind an instant-speed 1CMC board-wipe, but the fact that you are simply NEVER going to see the removed critters again and cannot protect (or even recycle them as resources in your graveyard, or reanimate them) them in any reasonable way is what makes it so back-breakinginly hard to deal with, in my opinion.

Well, to be fair, it is kind of nice for certain Green Sun's Zenith decks. It can be cool having 5 copies of Sigarda. But that's pretty niche.

[maharis]

what are everyone's thoughts on relying on surgical extraction as a way to deal with terminus after the first one has been cast? i feel like most miracles players jump the gun on the first one if there are some reasonable early game threats.

It's fine, but like most "answers" to miracles, it's narrow and situational and dead to Counterbalance-Top.


Well, to be fair, it is kind of nice for certain Green Sun's Zenith decks. It can be cool having 5 copies of Sigarda. But that's pretty niche.

GSZ is more of a nice-to-have than an effective weapon against Terminus. It's cool when they Terminus and you have 1-2 Zeniths in hand, but Zenith is open to counterspells and mana-hungry. And it does nothing against plow/snap-plow.

[Mr Miagi]

@crimhead: go take a chill pill and try and understand what others are trying to tell you.

[rufus]

This is actually the thing that I hate about Terminus the most. Never mind an instant-speed 1CMC board-wipe, but the fact that you are simply NEVER going to see the removed critters again and cannot protect (or even recycle them as resources in your graveyard, or reanimate them) them in any reasonable way is what makes it so back-breakinginly hard to deal with, in my opinion.

This comment does have me wondering about Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, though there's obviously some gymnastics involved to avoid counters and removal.

[iatee]

Almost everything can be 'dead to countertop' in theory, just like almost everything is dead to 'They play Show and Tell Omniscience.' or 'They stormed out on t1.'

Miracles can have answers to your answers. But it doesn't always find them.

People really make it seem like Miracles is this unstoppable beast when really the deck loses a lot. It doesn't crush every tournament or even make every t8. Somehow people are beating this deck.

[Crimhead]

@crimhead: go take a chill pill and try and understand what others are trying to tell you.
Believe it or not, I'm off work with a pulled hamstring and after reading this I hobbled to the medicine cabinet at took my pain killer and muscle relaxant. Thanks for the reminder.

Still what your telling me is either objectively wrong (all other decks losing identity and presence) or comp!every irrelevant (some established decks are not tier-one).

If you have anything of substance to say, why not simply say instead of telling me to relax and read your mind?

[Lemnear]

Almost everything can be 'dead to countertop' in theory, just like almost everything is dead to 'They play Show and Tell Omniscience.' or 'They stormed out on t1.

Except the only metagame solution for a resolved Countertop is Decay. Even T1 Storm kills have more potential stones to stumble over in legacy than a resolved Countertop like FoW, MBT, Surgical, etc

[iatee]

Resolved Countertop has stones to stumble over like "Crap, they played a 3 drop."

Again this 'Miracles just can't lose! It's unbeatable! Answers to everything!' narrative doesn't fit with the reality where Miracles loses all the time.

[Lemnear]

this narrative doesn't fit with the reality where Miracles loses all the time.

Any data on that claim? Should we slap you with tournament data and T6/T16 statistics again?

[iatee]

There is a difference between 1. 'Miracles is the best positioned deck in legacy' and 2. 'Miracles is unbeatable'.

People cite its string of DtB placements as if that means #2, but really it just means #1. There are eras where a certain deck dominates a format so clearly that the format becomes basically unplayable. Eldrazi in Modern recently, various standards, etc. This is not what one of those formats looks like:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-festival-champ-9923951#paper

The anti-Miracles crowd here tends to consist of people who a. Really like their decks b. Play decks have inherently bad Miracles matchups. The fact that people are so tied to their decks in legacy (for financial and non-financial reasons) makes it harder for the meta to shift and react to things. People just keep walking into walls - some people are gonna just keep playing their Elves deck no matter what. Other people are going to pick up decks that have at least 50-50 matchups vs the best deck in the format. They exist.

[square_two]

There is a difference between 1. 'Miracles is the best positioned deck in legacy' and 2. 'Miracles is unbeatable'.

People cite its string of DtB placements as if that means #2, but really it just means #1. There are eras where a certain deck dominates a format so clearly that the format becomes basically unplayable. Eldrazi in Modern recently, various standards, etc. This is not what one of those formats looks like:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-festival-champ-9923951#paper

The anti-Miracles crowd here tends to consist of people who a. Really like their decks b. Play decks have inherently bad Miracles matchups. The fact that people are so tied to their decks in legacy (for financial and non-financial reasons) makes it harder for the meta to shift and react to things. People just keep walking into walls - some people are gonna just keep playing their Elves deck no matter what. Other people are going to pick up decks that have at least 50-50 matchups vs the best deck in the format. They exist.

I don't think the majority of the "anti-Miracles" crowd is claiming that miracles is unbeatable.

Do you really not see anything wrong with a single deck being the best positioned deck in legacy for 2 and a half years? And you don't think that fact is going to lead to a (even slightly) warped format? Your own advice is to...only play a deck that has an even or favorable matchup against ONE deck in the format, seems like it gives plenty of credence to Miracles being format warping.

[Stuart]

Resolved Countertop has stones to stumble over like "Crap, they played a 3 drop."

I'm not particularly anti-Miracles, but I think the issue everyone's alluding to in this thread is that if 1 axis of Miracles stumbles, the rest of the deck picks up the slack a little too easily. So yeah, occasionally a 3-drop slips through, but then they can Counterspell/FoW/Plow/Terminus/Wear Tear/Council's Judgment it.

What's frustrating isn't just the strength of the individual components in Miracles. It's the feeling that even if you play tight and work around 1 axis of the deck, another comes through and undoes your hard work and tight play.

That said, a deck shouldn't be banned just because it's frustrating to play against.


There is a difference between 1. 'Miracles is the best positioned deck in legacy' and 2. 'Miracles is unbeatable'.

People cite its string of DtB placements as if that means #2, but really it just means #1. There are eras where a certain deck dominates a format so clearly that the format becomes basically unplayable. Eldrazi in Modern recently, various standards, etc. This is not what one of those formats looks like:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-festival-champ-9923951#paper

The anti-Miracles crowd here tends to consist of people who a. Really like their decks b. Play decks have inherently bad Miracles matchups. The fact that people are so tied to their decks in legacy (for financial and non-financial reasons) makes it harder for the meta to shift and react to things. People just keep walking into walls - some people are gonna just keep playing their Elves deck no matter what. Other people are going to pick up decks that have at least 50-50 matchups vs the best deck in the format. They exist.

Of course, you're right that the deck isn't unbeatable. If it was, it would have a much higher share of the meta than it does. However, as you've pointed out, Legacy players are different beasts than Standard/Modern players. We love our decks (and in some cases, don't have the resources to easily switch to other decks), and aren't trying to make the pro-tour or whatever. In other words, if this was another format, Miracles would probably have more players than it does.

[Crimhead]

Except the only metagame solution for a resolved Countertop is Decay.
This completely ignores the answers that prevent both pieces from resolving...

That said, Cavern Of Souls blanks Counter-Top, at least for one spell a turn. Bosieju and K-Grip are more narrow answers, but nonetheless an import part of our meta.

Going over their head is also an answer. Eldrazis do this very well, as does Engineered Explosives.


There is a difference between 1. 'Miracles is the best positioned deck in legacy' and 2. 'Miracles is unbeatable'.
Beat me too it. T6/T16 statistics do not support the wild claims that Miracles always has answers for everything or that all decks are losing their identity & presence.



Do you really not see anything wrong with a single deck being the best positioned deck in legacy for 2 and a half years?
Not necessarily, I prefer to look at the entire meta.

Consider an extremely hypothetical meta with 99 tier one decks. 98 have a 1% meta share each, but the top dog has 2%. Is it unhealthy for one deck to have double the meta share of the next best decks - even if it lasts for years?

The point is that in order to evaluate the health of the meta, we need to look at more than just which deck is best and for how long it has been the best. We need to look at how many other decks exist, and how many different styles are represented. We need to look at exactly what percent of top spots the deck is taking.

For a lot of people, 15-20% is not intolerable. And anyone who looks at the DTB and says the format is not diverse is taking better pills that what my doctor prescribed!


Your ou own advice is to...only play a deck that has an even or favorable matchup against ONE deck in the format, seems like it gives plenty of credence to Miracles being format warping.If the meta is able to adapt to deal with a powerful deck, that is not format warping - this is called self regulation. It is format warping if the meta cannot adapt, or if it adapts by becoming overly narrow. While the meta is currently anything but narrow, we have an interesting situation because the meta seems to be refusing to adapt to the best of its ability. As iatee says, people can't or won't change decks.

I don't think it's right to blame the meta (again, which is very diverse) on a single deck and not on the people who refuse to adapt and play a tier-one deck.

Hopefully the article series will provide some real insight to help people play against Miracles even if they refuse to make a favourable meta-call when it comes to deck selection.

[DarthVicious]

This is actually the thing that I hate about Terminus the most. Never mind an instant-speed 1CMC board-wipe, but the fact that you are simply NEVER going to see the removed critters again and cannot protect (or even recycle them as resources in your graveyard, or reanimate them) them in any reasonable way is what makes it so back-breakinginly hard to deal with, in my opinion.

Putting my own opinion of Derpinus aside, Squadron Hawk says hi. Again, and again, and again, after every Terminus.

[iatee]

colo plays a deck with $200 Squadron Hawks already! (Imperial Recruiters.)

[square_two]

If the meta is able to adapt to deal with a powerful deck, that is not format warping - this is called self regulation. It is format warping if the meta cannot adapt, or if it adapts by becoming overly narrow. While the meta is currently anything but narrow, we have an interesting situation because the meta seems to be refusing to adapt to the best of its ability. As iatee says, people can't or won't change decks.

I don't think it's right to blame the meta (again, which is very diverse) on a single deck and not on the people who refuse to adapt and play a tier-one deck.

Hopefully the article series will provide some real insight to help people play against Miracles even if they refuse to make a favourable meta-call when it comes to deck selection.

This is a good point, but you also have to look at it from the opposite standpoint, like @Stuart was hinting at.

If more people had the desire or the ability to change decks, or if Legacy was in a better position to earn people money (think pro-tour status), then wouldn't we -also- see more people switching to Miracles?

If you make the claim that people simply aren't switching to decks that better beat Miracles, then you also have to admit the claim that more people would be switching to Miracles. Why switch to a deck to beat the #1 deck...if you could just switch to that #1 deck?

[DarthVicious]

colo plays a deck with $200 Squadron Hawks already! (Imperial Recruiters.)

I like the monowhite version myself ;)

[Lemnear]

This completely ignores the answers that prevent both pieces from resolving...

So we are back to "You just have to play blue and counter the spells"? You are going in a circle with your arguments. Talking about ignorance in terms of "just counter it" is funny, if you come up with "3-drops" against a counterbalance deck, which used to run cards like Clique or Judgement postboard and it running shitloads of removal

[iatee]

This is a good point, but you also have to look at it from the opposite standpoint, like @Stuart was hinting at.

If more people had the desire or the ability to change decks, or if Legacy was in a better position to earn people money (think pro-tour status), then wouldn't we -also- see more people switching to Miracles?

If you make the claim that people simply aren't switching to decks that better beat Miracles, then you also have to admit the claim that more people would be switching to Miracles. Why switch to a deck to beat the #1 deck...if you could just switch to that #1 deck?

That is generally what pros/hardcore spikes do in every format. But I think the other thing that matters is 'by how big a margin is 'the best deck' the best deck?' And I think the margin is not particularly huge for Miracles. It's not absurd to show up to a tournament with a non-Miracles deck - but it is probably absurd to show up to a tournament with a deck that just can't beat the best deck in the format.

[Crimhead]

If you make the claim that people simply aren't switching to decks that better beat Miracles, then you also have to admit the claim that more people would be switching to Miracles. Why switch to a deck to beat the #1 deck...if you could just switch to that #1 deck?
There is a bit of circular logic here. Miracles is the number one deck precisely because not enough people are packing decks that have a good match against it.

Incidentally, the more people switch to Miracles, the worse it becomes. If everybody who plays a deck with >50% against Miracles switched to Miracles, it would be the word deck in the meta because all its matches are either unfavourable or the mirror.

The point is that the is an interdependency between the stats a deck puts up vs which decks people choose to play.

Miracles has the benefits of a lot of good players pushing it plus too many players pushing their tier-two pet decks which happen to be big dogs to Miracles. It makes the deck look better on paper than it actually is.

[DarthVicious]

So we are back to "You just have to play blue and counter the spells"? You are going in a circle with your arguments. Talking about ignorance in terms of "just counter it" is funny, if you come up with "3-drops" against a counterbalance deck, which used to run cards like Clique or Judgement postboard and it running shitloads of removal

Stopping their cards doesn't necessarily mean countering them. Needle/Revoker on Top is a big move against Miracles, as is Vial/Cavern dropping uncounterable threats, casting spells too big for Countertop to catch, Abrupt Decay is a thing, etc. All of these cards I listed make their own way around Miracles stuff. Squadron Hawk/Imperial Recruiter laugh at Terminus. Spirit of the Labyrinth seems good against a deck with 12+ cantrips. Mongoose and kin force them to find and burn a Terminus. Hell, let's even go old school with Underworld Dreams and Howling Mine.

I'm just saying there's options out there, and you'll note none of the cards I listed are blue.

[Lemnear]

Cavern dropping uncounterable threats

Because Plows and Terminus do not exist. Right.


Casting spells too big for Countertop to catch

Forgot we play standards manacurve against tempo and combo decks. Silly me


Squadron Hawk ... Spirit of the Labyrinth ... Underworld Dreams and Howling Mine.

speaks for itself


I'm just saying there's options out there, and you'll note none of the cards I listed are blue.

We can also play Undying Flames and/or Endless Swarm ... whats your point?

[apple713]

miracles is a control deck and as such it is designed to deal with the other decks in the format. It probably just seems better than it is because lots of decks take a traditional approach to legacy deck building. They mainstream decks instead of making their own and complain when the deck that was designed to beat them does.

There are a whole slew of cards that have been mentioned. Chalice of the void, pithing needle, abrupt decay. Those are all Very popular cards that punish miracles.

For those that are having trouble with miracles, I would recommend playing a deck that performs well against it, like 12 post. You can complain about the problem indefinitely or you could just laugh as you wreck it.

Another weakness with miracles is the low threat count. I played a deck running Chalice of the void, abrupt decay, ensnaring bridge, and sadistic sacrament. I didn't have much trouble with miracles at all. Play more three drops.

[Crimhead]

So we are back to "You just have to play blue and counter the spells"
You can prevent resolution through blue counters, red counters, Chalice, or discard.

But, no I didn't say you had to do this - I also reminded you that CoS is a card, and that you can dodge it with with high CMCs. I didn't mention Needle, Revoker, or Vial

Your claim that AD is the only answer is ignorant in the extreme, especially seeing as you've already been corrected.



Forgot we play standards manacurve against tempo and combo decks. Silly me
Eldrazi Shops is DTB. Silly you!



Because Plows and Terminus do not exist. Right
The fact that permanents are vulnerable to removal does not change the fact that CoS blanks counter-magic. Nothing is impervious to everything.


I don't think the majority of the "anti-Miracles" crowd is claiming that miracles is unbeatable.
You wouldn't know it. People get pretty emotional about this and end up saying really silly things.

[PirateKing]

There are a whole slew of cards that have been mentioned. Chalice of the void, pithing needle, abrupt decay. Those are all Very popular cards that punish miracles.

I don't want to wade too far into the Miracles debate, but using words like punish is overstating their effectiveness. Rest in Peace punishes Dredge. Trinisphere punishes Storm. Abrupt Decay does not punish Miracles. One for one answers are never punishing. There are lots of cards that are less bad against Miracles, and people have been naming them for many months now. But very few of them are good, and none really punish the deck.

[NeckBird]

If Terminus had a Miracle cost of WW, Miracles would be a far more reasonable deck. It's just too easy to fix your mana with Top, Ponder, and Brainstorm in conjunction with fetchlands and being relatively resilient to Wasteland. Don't think anything from Miracles should be banned, but the fact that it can splash Red for free gives it a lot of extra reach. If you don't want something from Miracles to be banned, just hope it doesn't get any new cards for the next couple years.

[Mackan]

I play miracles and have done so since Nassif T8:ed GP Chicago years ago. In it's current form I think miracles is too powerful. It's hard to stop it unless you are giving up huge percentages in other matchups or reduce the consistency of your own deck (chalice shells can't play brainstorm...etc). Just to name a few examples. Both storm and elves have almost their entire sideboard to beat miracles and it's still not a good matchup. Shardless BUG exist basicly because it is supposed to have a favored miracles matchup (which it doesn't). Of the thousands of matches I have played I have come to a point where it's no longer fun or intresting. It's at a point where I sit down for a match and I feel I have all the answers and the means to find them. I lose too but it's mostly from my own mistakes or some unlikely series of draws. What I dislike the most about miracles (and the current legacy) is how basicly any defensive brainstorm deck you build is either miracles or shardless bug. How many playable decks in legacy without chalice of the void or abrupt decay are there? People play "their" decks no matter what (I love high tide, for example) which makes for a lot of noise in the stats. Miracles is not dominating by numbers but if a deck is clealy the best choice and have been forever isn't it time to shake things up? A metagame without miracles is hard to predict and it's maybe worse... Maybe we need survival of the fittest back. Idk.

[iatee]

Any defensive Brainstorm deck you build is either Miracles or Shardless or a not very good deck. If you ban Miracles any defensive Brainstorm deck you build is either Shardless or not a very good deck.

[Crimhead]

Miracles is not dominating by numbers but if a deck is clealy the best choice and have been forever isn't it time to shake things up?
If this were modern, yes. In Legacy they don't ban to shake-up the format, so it's more a question of at what point a the best deck is considered to dominate the meta. Incidentally, there is no consensus among Legacy players as to whether or not Miracles is at that point.


Any defensive Brainstorm deck you build is either Miracles or Shardless or a not very good deck. If you ban Miracles any defensive Brainstorm deck you build is either Shardless or not a very good deck.Pretty bad when the second most defensive blue control decks runs only four counter-spells and a full set of Goyfs!

[DarthVicious]

Because Plows and Terminus do not exist. Right.

Forgot we play standards manacurve against tempo and combo decks. Silly me

speaks for itself

We can also play Undying Flames and/or Endless Swarm ... whats your point?

Of course answers exist. Does the prevalence of creature removal stop anyone from running creatures? Counterspells from combo? Graveyard hate from Dredge?

Ask Eldrazi about a manacurve. Or 12-Post. Or Sneak&Show.

Squadron Hawk has seen lots of tournament play. Dreams and Mine... well, I never said they were good options, just that they were options.

The point is, like many other people are saying, that there are nonblue options for fighting (and beating) Miracles.

[Mackan]

Any defensive Brainstorm deck you build is either Miracles or Shardless or a not very good deck. If you ban Miracles any defensive Brainstorm deck you build is either Shardless or not a very good deck.

Ur standstill, deedstill, stoneblade, bant, NO-rug, faeries, stiflenaught, u/x mentor... Probably not as good as miracles but would make for a more diverse format. I don't think shardless will be a better choice than half of the above in a field without miracles.

[iatee]

Miracles doesn't push those decks out of the format, those decks sucking pushes those decks out of the format.

[Parcher]

There are lots of cards that are less bad against Miracles, and people have been naming them for many months now. But very few of them are good, and none really punish the deck.

I don't think this is accurate. The defining characteristic of a punisher is its narrowness. It isn't that people don't want to SB cards for Miracles, it's that they don't want to run cards only useful in that matchup. From my perspective, Surgical is at best a mediocre card vs Dredge. But it has become the de facto GY hate due to the generic applications against other decks. Including non-GY-based ones. If people want to best Dredge specifically, they will. Same with Miracles. Any Red deck can run Scald and stop Miracles' primary and secondary strategies. Same, to a lesser degree, with P.Pillar. Both get in under Counterbalance/spell. Black decks can run Chains. White, Suspension Field. And so on. The symmetry of these cards is easily mollified by the fact that decks other than Miracles can still implement an offense while under them. All of them hurt Miracles' defense to the point that just swinging with dudes becomes a legitimate tactic vs. them. And, the same cards hinder Miracles ability to quickly and efficiently find and deploy answers to said cards. And those are just a few off the top of my head.

[Lemnear]

Of course answers exist. Does the prevalence of creature removal stop anyone from running creatures? Counterspells from combo? Graveyard hate from Dredge?

The point is, like many other people are saying, that there are nonblue options for fighting (and beating) Miracles.

Your examples suck ass. You wanna compare "getting around counterbalance" with something like "Rest in Piece against Dredge" or "Trinishpere against Storm"? Newsflash: Miracles CAN operate without Counterbalance, but Dredge can not without a graveyard and neither can Storm under Trinishphere.

The argument that something is fair and healthy for the metagame, if ANY ANSWER NO MATTER THE COST exist, is utter bullshit. Maybe we should unban Ancestral Recall because Chalice of the Void is a card? Or Treasure Cruise, because Rest in Piece is a card?

[Stuart]

Maybe we should just have an [Official] Bitching About Miracles thread.

[Zombie]

This is actually the thing that I hate about Terminus the most. Never mind an instant-speed 1CMC board-wipe, but the fact that you are simply NEVER going to see the removed critters again and cannot protect (or even recycle them as resources in your graveyard, or reanimate them) them in any reasonable way is what makes it so back-breakinginly hard to deal with, in my opinion.

It can do good in Elves in that we can crack a fetch to get Arbor back in play and it keeps the threat count in the deck high. Most more normal decks are SOL.


I don't think the majority of the "anti-Miracles" crowd is claiming that miracles is unbeatable.

Do you really not see anything wrong with a single deck being the best positioned deck in legacy for 2 and a half years? And you don't think that fact is going to lead to a (even slightly) warped format? Your own advice is to...only play a deck that has an even or favorable matchup against ONE deck in the format, seems like it gives plenty of credence to Miracles being format warping.

It's not even that there's a deck like that. A lot of it is how it does that. BUG or RUG Delver for example being the best deck is just very different than Miracles because those decks play a more normal game of Magic. Standard things work, you don't need to go for invalidating their gameplans because each is so absurdly strong by itself.

It's kind of like the note on Rest in Peace earlier. A Loam deck can adapt to hate, but it's hard pressed to adapt to RiP because it's so binary. Miracles' three main angles of attack are just that. Nothing about the deck is the half measures a typical well-rounded deck has.

[Julian23]

Overall thought, Elves would be in MUCH better shape in Terminus destroyed instead. You can interact with destroy effects a lot. I remember Bernd Fritsch running 4 Vengevince for the grindy control matchups. Or even just Thrun, which would suddenly become a super real card and probably see play in all green decks.

[iatee]

Your examples suck ass. You wanna compare "getting around counterbalance" with something like "Rest in Piece against Dredge" or "Trinishpere against Storm"? Newsflash: Miracles CAN operate without Counterbalance, but Dredge can not without a graveyard and neither can Storm under Trinishphere.

Gee maybe people who play super linear decks are going to get punished more often than people who don't play super linear decks. If you don't have a way to meaningfully disrupt Dredge or Storm within a few turns you lose. The price those decks pay for that power is that they are fragile. That's baked into the cake.

[ESG]

If people want to best Dredge specifically, they will. Same with Miracles. Any Red deck can run Scald and stop Miracles' primary and secondary strategies. Same, to a lesser degree, with P.Pillar. Both get in under Counterbalance/spell. Black decks can run Chains. White, Suspension Field. And so on. The symmetry of these cards is easily mollified by the fact that decks other than Miracles can still implement an offense while under them. All of them hurt Miracles' defense to the point that just swinging with dudes becomes a legitimate tactic vs. them. And, the same cards hinder Miracles ability to quickly and efficiently find and deploy answers to said cards. And those are just a few off the top of my head.

I feel the exact opposite, Parcher. I feel that in order to beat Miracles, an entire deck must be devoted to it, because Miracles as a deck is devoted to answering the bulk of what the format can offer. There aren't single cards like Rest in Peace that nuke Miracles. Scald can't go in just any red deck and be successful. Scald in Burn specifically is a consideration, but Pyrostatic Pillar is a better choice there. Monastery Mentor is quite capable of racing Scald, but Pyrostatic Pillar attacks Miracles' general necessity on having to cast more than four or five spells to win the game. Scald plus Pyrostatic Pillar would be even better. One of the keys to beating Miracles is threat count. Every card you play needs to advance the game plan against Miracles.

Chains is a well-positioned card, and I think more people would run it if it wasn't really expensive. The downside to Chains is that you can't run card draw (although you could run Dark Confidant and other cards that put cards in your hand). I have found that it's generally better to outdraw Miracles rather than try to leverage Chains unless you are a prison deck. I like Chains in a Stax deck, for example.

I think you meant Suppression Field for the white option, not Suspension Field. This one is a lot harder to run because you have to craft a deck with few or no activated abilities.

I agree that there are cards that are good against Miracles. I brew all the time and am always on the lookout for cards impactful enough to try. As I said in my post on the first page of the thread, I have been fighting the deck for multiple years and have a decent record against it. That doesn't change the fact that it's the best deck in Legacy and has ruled over the format for most of its time in the format. In my opening post, I delved into why the deck is so strong, why it's so well-rounded, and how it has become tougher to fight. I would invite people who haven't read that to go back and consider it.

I would like this thread to be constructive and not just people bickering back and forth. I hate that aspect of The Source. I'm not going to name names, but it's always the same five or 10 people. I think there are a lot of good players and smart people here, and I would like to see some development and some respectful discussion. This conversation has branched off from Philipp Schönegger's article a bit, so maybe a mod could redirect the conversation elsewhere unless Philipp wants to respond to some points expressed here. (And his wisdom and perspective would be much appreciated.) Miracles has been a hot-button issue for a while, and the tone has changed a bit among Miracles players, who now seem to be in general agreement that the deck is overpowered. Certainly not every combination of cards has been explored in every deck, so there is still room for brewing to combat Miracles, but it's important to take stock of where the deck used to be and where it is now in terms of power level.

[maharis]

I'm sort of surprised some sort of Deedstill deck hasn't emerged to combat miracles. I imagine that Miracles' ability to play B2B and Blood Moon preclude that from success. But deed + decay + manlands + other disruption is a nice recipe. I've brewed up a couple lists but I'm short some Jaces and Tar Pits and haven't been able to acquire them.

Is AV that much better than Standstill?

[Ingo]

I don't think this is accurate. The defining characteristic of a punisher is its narrowness. It isn't that people don't want to SB cards for Miracles, it's that they don't want to run cards only useful in that matchup. From my perspective, Surgical is at best a mediocre card vs Dredge. But it has become the de facto GY hate due to the generic applications against other decks. Including non-GY-based ones. If people want to best Dredge specifically, they will. Same with Miracles. Any Red deck can run Scald and stop Miracles' primary and secondary strategies. Same, to a lesser degree, with P.Pillar. Both get in under Counterbalance/spell. Black decks can run Chains. White, Suspension Field. And so on. The symmetry of these cards is easily mollified by the fact that decks other than Miracles can still implement an offense while under them. All of them hurt Miracles' defense to the point that just swinging with dudes becomes a legitimate tactic vs. them. And, the same cards hinder Miracles ability to quickly and efficiently find and deploy answers to said cards. And those are just a few off the top of my head.

Kevin King seems to have found such a card for Lands, as he beat Joe Lossett wit Miracles twice, both times with 2-0! (both on camera) in SCG Worcester. His tech was playing Boseiju main, and focus on comboing over and over (dark depths + thespian's stage), until Lossett ran out of Plows and Termini. Boseiju costs life, but that's not suicidal when you get 20 life back with each plow. And Lands has both gamble and crop rotation to find Boseiju, so that's a realistic plan to pull off before countertop gets assembled.

[rufus]

Kevin King seems to have found such a card for Lands, as he beat Joe Lossett wit Miracles twice, ...

I was under the impression that lands is favored vs miracles anyway.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I was under the impression that lands is favored vs miracles anyway.

RG lands isn't, miracles can interact with loam (counterbalance) and can answer MARIT LAIGE. In addition, Miracles is pretty resistant to waste+port.

[Fox]

There is a bit of circular logic here. Miracles is the number one deck precisely because not enough people are packing decks that have a good match against it.

I would say that what is more the case is that (outside of using questionable mana curves, which is a whole-deck approach), is that any cards out there that will "kill" miracles are all going to need to be backed up by at least a second card whose only purpose is to turn off Counterbalance. The amount of slots you need force miracles into a position of using cards from hand to deal with hate is fairly absurd, and unique to Counterbalance decks. Not only is it a 2-card process to get a hate card out there, but you're not going to be able to cantrip or use responsibly-costed effects to assemble those pieces. There are very few decks which can have a match vs miracles that are actually good and still perform well against the field; and as far as most local metas go, miracles is far more represented [generally] than the decks that should make them consider sleeving up something else.

@Ingo - in the game you're referencing one player (miracles) has abjectly failed to stop a 4 card combo (Exploration, Depths, Stage, Loam) and faces a new marit lage every single turn. You don't deserve to win a game vs lands if you let the board state get that awful; and no card should be able to totally bail you out (and CB totally would have) were it not for the Lands pilot choosing to stop playing magic (Boseju).

[Crimhead]

RG lands isn't, miracles can interact with loam (counterbalance) and can answer MARIT LAIGE. In addition, Miracles is pretty resistant to waste+port.
True, the match is even to slightly unfavourable if both players know the match well. Just adding go that, the Jund builds with AD main, Molten Vortex, and black sb cards is favourable vs Miracles but loses more to most other decks. RUG is probsbly even to slightly favourable vs Miracles, but it hasn't put up results in a long time.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

True, the match is even to slightly unfavourable if both players know the match well.

If both players know what they are doing, I'd say it's favorable for Miracles, if only because there are more games where Lands basically doesn't get to do anything because turn 2 counterbalance with a 2 floating on top, then the other way around where miracles durdles with cantrips and gets beaten by a 20/20.

[Crimhead]

@Lord McDonald's, the match gets better post board, but you're correct that G1 is favourable for Miracles.


I would say that what is more the case is that (outside of using questionable mana curves, which is a whole-deck approach), is that any cards out there that will "kill" miracles are all going to need to be backed up by at least a second card whose only purpose is to turn off Counterbalance. The amount of slots you need force miracles into a position of using cards from hand to deal with hate is fairly absurd, and unique to Counterbalance decks. Not only is it a 2-card process to get a hate card out there, but you're not going to be able to cantrip or use responsibly-costed effects to assemble those pieces. There are very few decks which can have a match vs miracles that are actually good and still perform well against the field; and as far as most local metas go, miracles is far more represented [generally] than the decks that should make them consider sleeving up something else.
I wasn't talking about running cards go hate on Miracles, but rather choosing decks which are naturally favoured (or close to it) against Miracles. Miracles could be hated out, bit not by jamming have cards into decks with bad Miracles MUs! Hate it out by almost everybody playing Eldrazis, Aggro Loam, Shardless, Infect, D&T, Lands (especially the Jund build), Dredge, or Post. Maybe even Merfolk. But a very large portion of any tournament is combo, Delver, and/or tier-two midrange (Jund, Maverick, etc) and it's these guys who are feeding Miracles.

If it's true that Miracles is do good that Delver and combo and blue-less midrange players "should" all switch to Miracles, what would happen if they all actually did? I'm pretty sure the meta would become quite hostile to Miracles. The best players would have a big edge in the mirror, but this would likely be thier best match!

What I'm saying is that there are enough quality decks that are even-to-good vs Miracles that it doesn't have to be the best deck. It is made so by the sheer number of players who are willing to take a bad match-up vs that deck.

Why do some pros not play Miracles? I can think of three reasons:

They believe their skill set is better suited to a different deck - conceding to play an inferior deck because they are just not good enough to play Miracles properly.
They enjoy the deck they play more than Miracles.
They believe Miracles is not the best positioned deck.
They don't want to buy the cards.

Either way, I can't imagine these pros believe the deck they play is that much behind Miracles position-wise. If they are right, the meta can't be that unhealthy. If they are wrong, that would mean all sorts of pros misunderstand the meta, in which case, who would presume to understand it better?

[Stuart]

What I'm saying is that there are enough quality decks that are even-to-good vs Miracles that it doesn't have to be the best deck. It is made so by the sheer number of players who are willing to take a bad match-up vs that deck.

This seems off. The issue is that pretty much all the decks you mentioned come with big risks: if you play Dredge you get blown out by grave hate, Eldrazi struggles with Moon and Bridge, D&T dies to fast combo, etc. This can't really be said of Miracles; your biggest risk is either running into 12-Post (unlikely) or that people have tuned their sideboards to beat you (which, as this thread shows, doesn't mean they'll automatically beat you). As such, the problem isn't just that a big portion of Legacy players play decks with bad Miracles matchups. It's also that the good decks vs Miracles are a riskier proposition than Miracles itself.

[Stevestamopz]

Either way, I can't imagine these pros believe the deck they play is that much behind Miracles position-wise. If they are right, the meta can't be that unhealthy. If they are wrong, that would mean all sorts of pros misunderstand the meta, in which case, who would presume to understand it better?

Are we talking about "pros" who play on the pro tour? and as such play Legacy maybe once or twice a year?

They are exceptional magic players no doubt about it, but they are not as invested in the format as everyone commentating in this thread, and they do not know more about Legacy than you or I do. To say that they understand the meta and that miracles is fine "because they are pros and don't play Miracles exclusively" is sort of circular logic.

[Ingo]

@Ingo - in the game you're referencing one player (miracles) has abjectly failed to stop a 4 card combo (Exploration, Depths, Stage, Loam) and faces a new marit lage every single turn. You don't deserve to win a game vs lands if you let the board state get that awful; and no card should be able to totally bail you out (and CB totally would have) were it not for the Lands pilot choosing to stop playing magic (Boseju).

The point is that this 4 card combo (Stage, Depths, Boseiju, Loam, and pref. a fifth card in exploration) is inevitable, once Boseiju is on the table, as Miracles does not interact with the permanenttype lands game 1 (game 2 there's Bloodmoon). Boseiju leads into uncounterable loams, leading into dredged combopieces, leading into a 20-20 token each (two) turns. The only real interaction for Miracles is to counter tutoring for Boseiju, and countering is limited pre-countertop.
Boseiju is nothing new, but I haven't seen it being played main yet. That tips the first game towards Lands favorability, instead of solely aiming for postboard reinforcement.

Regarding the Landsplayer choosing to stop playing Magic by using Boseiju, that's a weird expression compared to what counterbalance does. I'd say he continues to play Magic, despite countertop!

[Lemnear]

Gee maybe people who play super linear decks are going to get punished more often than people who don't play super linear decks. If you don't have a way to meaningfully disrupt Dredge or Storm within a few turns you lose. The price those decks pay for that power is that they are fragile. That's baked into the cake.

So 12-Post, D&T, Loam, etc are "linear decks". Keep going, pal

[Fox]

The point is that this 4 card combo (Stage, Depths, Boseiju, Loam, and pref. a fifth card in exploration) is inevitable, once Boseiju is on the table, as Miracles does not interact with the permanenttype lands game 1 (game 2 there's Bloodmoon). Boseiju leads into uncounterable loams, leading into dredged combopieces, leading into a 20-20 token each (two) turns. The only real interaction for Miracles is to counter tutoring for Boseiju, and countering is limited pre-countertop.
Boseiju is nothing new, but I haven't seen it being played main yet. That tips the first game towards Lands favorability, instead of solely aiming for postboard reinforcement.

Regarding the Landsplayer choosing to stop playing Magic by using Boseiju, that's a weird expression compared to what counterbalance does. I'd say he continues to play Magic, despite countertop!
That's every single turn Lands was putting down a 20/20; you're dead, you're done, stop playing and move to sideboard. It's certainly frustrating to see a deck limp through about 7 turns of that while simultaneously not even pretending to try and win...it's unacceptable that a deck can let it get that bad, but resolving an effortless 2-drop Counterbalance would have turned that into the easiest win were it not for Boseju. The amount of absolute overkill Lands presented there is rarely seen; but even the most over-the-top overkill isn't enough, you have to go even further and use Boseju. Lands won that game of Magic about 4x over without Boseju, there is zero reason they should have had to venture into Boseju territory to win that game.

[Chatto]

@Ingo - in the game you're referencing one player (miracles) has abjectly failed to stop a 4 card combo (Exploration, Depths, Stage, Loam) and faces a new marit lage every single turn. You don't deserve to win a game vs lands if you let the board state get that awful; and no card should be able to totally bail you out (and CB totally would have) were it not for the Lands pilot choosing to stop playing magic (Boseju).

While I maybe a bit biased, and I'm not Ingo, I do like to reply to your comment.

It is pretty silly to say that King stopped playing Magic, where all he did was making sure he could play MtG. A Counter/Top-lock can kill RGCL, so putting up a fight seems fair to me. You could even reason: why does Miracles not play Wasteland to kill Boseiju (sarcasm :smile:, so no answer neccesary)

I thought this thread is dedicated to how Miracles can be killed: Boseiju is a card-choice for RGCL in combatting RGCL. Seems legit to me.

EDIT: combatting Miracles, of course.

[Lemnear]

That's every single turn Lands was putting down a 20/20; you're dead, you're done, stop playing and move to sideboard. It's certainly frustrating to see a deck limp through about 7 turns of that while simultaneously not even pretending to try and win...it's unacceptable that a deck can let it get that bad, but resolving an effortless 2-drop Counterbalance would have turned that into the easiest win were it not for Boseju. The amount of absolute overkill Lands presented there is rarely seen; but even the most over-the-top overkill isn't enough, you have to go even further and use Boseju. Lands won that game of Magic about 4x over without Boseju, there is zero reason they should have had to venture into Boseju territory to win that game.

And again we are back to "stuff must be uncounterable" even if we talk about a deck which is already favored against Miracles. Not to point T winning still required SEVERAL 20/20 FLYING INDESTRUCTIBLE CREATURES on top.

[Fox]

And again we are back to "stuff must be uncounterable" even if we talk about a deck which is already favored against Miracles.
Not what I'm saying at all. Infinite counterspells without any real resource investment is what you have to beat; counterspells that have to exist in the hand and make their eventual trip to the graveyard are not the issue here. As with Time Vault, this isn't real Magic - someone is playing a game where your opponent can only take game actions in the same way that only one person gets to take turns.

[twndomn]

how many miracles threads do we need~ (don't answer that)

[Ingo]

...it's unacceptable that a deck can let it get that bad, but resolving an effortless 2-drop Counterbalance would have turned that into the easiest win were it not for Boseju.

With the term 'unacceptable' you suggest Joe misplayed (twice). Can you also explain what he should have done? Miracles has one deckhalf to fight creatures and another half to fight the stack, but does not interact with lands. What's so unacceptable about this? His actions are limited to countering an exploration or a gamble/crop for Boseiju, but Miracles isn't built to do so. It's primarily built to cantrip into countertop and sweep whatever creature already was played, as it hardly runs any hardcounters besides Force of Will. What you call unacceptable, is in my opinion the exploitation of one of the few weaknesses Miracles has.


The amount of absolute overkill Lands presented there is rarely seen; but even the most over-the-top overkill isn't enough, you have to go even further and use Boseju. Lands won that game of Magic about 4x over without Boseju, there is zero reason they should have had to venture into Boseju territory to win that game.

You are focussing on the gamestate of a single game, to draw general conclusions. In this game Exploration and loam + combo probably would have been enough. But there are plenty of games without having a perfect hand, and here Boseiju is like a very good 1-card maindeck investment, tutorable with crop/gamble, to inevitably build towards a 20/20 each 2 turns. That's certainly not overkill as this won't get exploration on the table. It's just a way for lands to keep up with Miracles in game1 with a minimal investment, and probably, there are similar strategies for other decks as well.

EDIT:

And again we are back to "stuff must be uncounterable" even if we talk about a deck which is already favored against Miracles. Not to point T winning still required SEVERAL 20/20 FLYING INDESTRUCTIBLE CREATURES on top.

You can ask any Miracles or Landsplayer who's favored game1, and it's deft'ly Miracles. Evident, when you look at what both decks do (and already was pointed out by Lord McDonald). Lands plays manadenial, creaturecontrol and a 20/20 as coregameplans. Miracles' fetches and basics are very resilient to manadenial (and top recycles ported lands), does not aim to resolve creatures pre-countertop and has a whopping amount of 11 answers (4 Terminus, 4 swords, 3 snapcasters) to Marit Lage.
Miracles' countertop is basically RIP's effect against Lands, and you should ask yourself how favored Lands is against a decks that runs 4x RIP in the main.

[Lemnear]

In this game Exploration and loam + combo probably would have been enough. But there are plenty of games without having a perfect hand, and here Boseiju is like a very good 1-card maindeck investment, tutorable with crop/gamble, to inevitably build towards a 20/20 each 2 turns. That's certainly not overkill as this won't get exploration on the table. It's just a way for lands to keep up with Miracles in game1 with a minimal investment, and probably, there are similar strategies for other decks as well.

Just to add a remark here: It can't be just me to see the ridiculousness of Miracles being able to counter decks like Lands, 12-Post, etc. with Bloodmoons as the deck is fine running plenty of Basic Plains/Islands.


Not what I'm saying at all. Infinite counterspells without any real resource investment is what you have to beat; counterspells that have to exist in the hand and make their eventual trip to the graveyard are not the issue here. As with Time Vault, this isn't real Magic - someone is playing a game where your opponent can only take game actions in the same way that only one person gets to take turns.

You mistook me. I quoted you not as a response, but to agree with the absurdity you outlined (even Lands needed a card like Boseiju) of what was required to win this match, in regards to a previous topic about Miracles, which hinted that one must pass CounterTop first to play an actual game of Legacy. That it STILL required an infinte stream of 20/20 evasive creatures to actually win, shows another layer of how ridiculous powerful the deck is.

[Ingo]

You mistook me. I quoted you not as a response, but to agree with the absurdity you outlined (even Lands needed a card like Boseiju) of what was required to win this match, in regards to a previous topic about Miracles, which hinted that one must pass CounterTop first to play an actual game of Legacy. That it STILL required an infinte stream of 20/20 evasive creatures to actually win, shows another layer of how ridiculous powerful the deck is.

Totally agree. But only because the wincon tries to win in the same axis in which Miracles excels to neuter.

There are other weaknesses of Miracles, for example dealing with enchantments pre-countertop. Imagine a firstturn resolved Molten Vortex for Lands. That's an inevitable clock, even with countertop locking out loam, only answerable with a one-off Counsil's Judgement. That's way less impressive than an infinite stream of Marit Lages, but even more lethal in it's simplicity.

[Crimhead]

Just to add a remark here: It can't be just me to see the ridiculousness of Miracles being able to counter decks like Lands, 12-Post, etc. with Bloodmoons as the deck is fine running plenty of Basic Plains/Islands.

I play Lands and do not find this ridiculous at all:
It's relatively easy to hold them off :r:.
We run four Grips post board.
Molten Vortex and/or Seismic Assault can win through a Moon.
Tireless Tracker also plays through Moon
It's hard to agree that this tool is ridiculous in a match which is ultimately close to 50/50.


Just That it STILL required an infinte stream of 20/20 evasive creatures to actually win, shows another layer of how ridiculous powerful the deck is.This is how RGCL typically wins, though - keep making a 20/20 until one gets through. Nothing to see here.



I thought this thread is dedicated to how Miracles can be killed: Boseiju is a card-choice for RGCL in combatting RGCL. Seems legit to me.You might think so, but you can't discuss a tool for beating Miracles without being bombarded by complaints that the tool is too narrow, doesn't punish Miracles hard enough, and that there are not enough other tools combat Miracles.
Even if you are responding tothe preposterous claim that the only tool that exists is AD, you still take flac.

[Kingbrago]

Ghost quarter in the lands deck is also a nightmare for miracles, who generally runs 1 to 2 max basic plains. The rishadan ports are extremely efficient against miracles to set up a marit lage and tap out aml their white sources. Seriously if you run QG and Boseiju the MU will tilt a lot to lands favor.

A lot of criticism towards anti miracles tech assumes they always have turn 2 CB backed up with 2 FoW, and cmc 2-3 and a terminus as the top 3 cards. This is not a productive way to see how to beat the deck. Regardless if it is OP or not, a lot of decks still are good against it and there are cards that make MU from bad to ok/good and this thread is here to discuss those rather than complain the deck is unbeatable

Envoyé de mon SM-A500FU en utilisant Tapatalk

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Even with GQ and Boseiju, I don't think they shift the MU that much. you need multiple GQs to get all of their basic plains, which they can easily play around with fetches (and again, the problem is that you can't cast your spells and recur dark depths), and while a Boseiju will make your life much easier, it's one card. Now with 4 Crop Rotations, you effectively have 5 copies, but 4 still can't be cast through countertop, so you're down to drawing it if they assemble countertop, assuming you haven't loamed it into your graveyard.

[Fox]

With the term 'unacceptable' you suggest Joe misplayed (twice). Can you also explain what he should have done? Miracles has one deckhalf to fight creatures and another half to fight the stack, but does not interact with lands. What's so unacceptable about this? His actions are limited to countering an exploration or a gamble/crop for Boseiju, but Miracles isn't built to do so. It's primarily built to cantrip into countertop and sweep whatever creature already was played, as it hardly runs any hardcounters besides Force of Will. What you call unacceptable, is in my opinion the exploitation of one of the few weaknesses Miracles has.

You are focussing on the gamestate of a single game, to draw general conclusions. In this game Exploration and loam + combo probably would have been enough. But there are plenty of games without having a perfect hand, and here Boseiju is like a very good 1-card maindeck investment, tutorable with crop/gamble, to inevitably build towards a 20/20 each 2 turns. That's certainly not overkill as this won't get exploration on the table. It's just a way for lands to keep up with Miracles in game1 with a minimal investment, and probably, there are similar strategies for other decks as well.
I'm not commenting on how Joe played outside of the board state getting out of control (20/20s every turn), which isn't necessarily something he could have stopped that game. Unacceptable refers to the ban-worthy power level of Counterbalance that [without Boseju] by tapping two islands Joe would have won out of nowhere when he was getting absolutely butchered. Joe had Brainstorms and 2-drops (SCM), SDT/CB, and the ability to remove marit lage - lands had zero chance of winning that game without Boseju despite presenting absurd levels of overkill with the 4-card combo (again Loam, Depths, Stage, Exploration). It's one game, but it really shows just how busted CB is.

[iatee]

Life from the Loam is as much of a busted card as Counterbalance. Counterbalance seems less busted if you don't play a deck that autoloses to Counterbalance on 2, just like Loam seems less busted if you play a combo deck.

Answers exist for both, you have to be willing to play them - and yes, even then you might lose sometimes. People are acting like just because some solution doesn't give you a 100% expected win rate vs Miracles it's not good. That's not how it works. Tossing in a Boseju helps boost your win rate vs Miracles. Tossing in even more cards can help even more. You're never going to hit 100%, people will always play answers to your answers, and sometimes you won't draw your answers.

[Fox]

Life from the Loam is as much of a busted card as Counterbalance. Counterbalance seems less busted if you don't play a deck that autoloses to Counterbalance on 2, just like Loam seems less busted if you play a combo deck.

Answers exist for both, you have to be willing to play them - and yes, even then you might lose sometimes. People are acting like just because some solution doesn't give you a 100% expected win rate vs Miracles it's not good. That's not how it works. Tossing in a Boseju helps boost your win rate vs Miracles. Tossing in even more cards can help even more. You're never going to hit 100%, people will always play answers to your answers, and sometimes you won't draw your answers.
CB doesn't have to use the graveyard, it doesn't die to Surgical Extraction, it doesn't die to Invasive Surgery. To even pretend that CB and Loam are anywhere near the same power level, that both have anything resembling comparable answers, or that both are equally likely to have the same counter backup is misguided.
It's not just a lack of answers at the same cmcs, you actually get closer to winning when you attack Loam (prime example DRS). When you throw down a Decay you're not winning. Just take a moment and realize how ridiculous it is that people should be required to throw in Boseju or Caverns (or a non-proactive card like Decay) just to be able to play magic.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Isnt Summoning Trap pretty good against Miracles and Daze+FoW decks?

[Ingo]

I'm not commenting on how Joe played outside of the board state getting out of control (20/20s every turn), which isn't necessarily something he could have stopped that game. Unacceptable refers to the ban-worthy power level of Counterbalance that [without Boseju] by tapping two islands Joe would have won out of nowhere when he was getting absolutely butchered. Joe had Brainstorms and 2-drops (SCM), SDT/CB, and the ability to remove marit lage - lands had zero chance of winning that game without Boseju despite presenting absurd levels of overkill with the 4-card combo (again Loam, Depths, Stage, Exploration). It's one game, but it really shows just how busted CB is.

Okay, I actually thought you were argumenting exactly the opposite in your previous posts.



Life from the Loam is as much of a busted card as Counterbalance. Counterbalance seems less busted if you don't play a deck that autoloses to Counterbalance on 2, just like Loam seems less busted if you play a combo deck.


It's an interesting comparison but not entirely true, because in a rock-scissors-paper comparison, if Miracles were a rock there simply isn't a Tier1 deck that represents paper. Even Eldrazi, the worst Tier1 matchup for Miracles, does not seem to be overly dominant versus Miracles. At least not in the way that Lands is dominated by fast combodecks.


CB doesn't have to use the graveyard, it doesn't die to Surgical Extraction, it doesn't die to Invasive Surgery. To even pretend that CB and Loam are anywhere near the same power level, that both have anything resembling comparable answers, or that both are equally likely to have the same counter backup is misguided.
It's not just a lack of answers at the same cmcs, you actually get closer to winning when you attack Loam (prime example DRS). When you throw down a Decay you're not winning. Just take a moment and realize how ridiculous it is that people should be required to throw in Boseju or Caverns (or a non-proactive card like Decay) just to be able to play magic.

DRS is an interesting example of how loamstrategies can be hated out by a common maindeck card. Some would say the same of Abrupt Decay and Miracles, but I'd argue that DRS is primarily included because it's an overall busted card helping the maindeck strategy, and not because the meta pushes for maindeck gravehate. In contrast, Decay is good because the dominance of Miracles pushes for a maindeck card like decay (that's not useless against the rest of the meta), and not so much for the powerlevel of the card itself.

Dark Lands is a perfect example of this, maindecking Abrupt Decay's to deal with counterbalance, although they really do not have synergy with loam.

[dte]

To even pretend that CB and Loam are anywhere near the same power level, that both have anything resembling comparable answers, or that both are equally likely to have the same counter backup is misguided.

Agree here: Loam is good alone, as a build-in resistance to countermagic, and creates a huge and recurrent CA while CB is quite a bad card alone and require a completing combo piece to be good. :)

More seriously, CB + SDT is a combo, it should have a strong effect, it is legacy. Think of IT and LED, when in combination aren't they busted cards?

Otherwise, congrats Philipp, it seems that your article stirred the most active discussion since a while (although maybe a not so new one).

I have a question regarding the topic you addressed: playing FoW on a SDT is something worth considering if you have a slow hand. In the mirror, in which cases do you consider forcing a SDT T1?

[Hopo]

I'm not commenting on how Joe played outside of the board state getting out of control (20/20s every turn), which isn't necessarily something he could have stopped that game. Unacceptable refers to the ban-worthy power level of Counterbalance that [without Boseju] by tapping two islands Joe would have won out of nowhere when he was getting absolutely butchered. Joe had Brainstorms and 2-drops (SCM), SDT/CB, and the ability to remove marit lage - lands had zero chance of winning that game without Boseju despite presenting absurd levels of overkill with the 4-card combo (again Loam, Depths, Stage, Exploration). It's one game, but it really shows just how busted CB is.

How about it showing how effective Boseiju is instead? It made the whole miracles deck obsolete.

[Fox]

How about it showing how effective Boseiju is instead? It made the whole miracles deck obsolete.
Lands assembled a 4-card combo against a "the" control deck of legacy, it demonstrated a game-ending loop of 20/20s - and it wouldn't have mattered in the slightest if he didn't also have Boseju. Just think about how ridiculous it is that you can demonstrate that much overkill, but it's still imperative to throw Boseju on top of it all. Lands clearly won that game many times over, but they had to use Boseju to prevent a lost victory - that should raise alarm bells. Boseju was card #5 just to deal with 1 card (Counterbalance), this is absurd.

@Dissection - how many cards have to be strung together to beat a 2-drop before you would say Counterbalance is busted? 6,7,8,9???

[Whitefaces]

How about it showing how effective Boseiju is instead? It made the whole miracles deck obsolete.

This!

People are complaining about the lack of SB options to fight Miracles yet when one is brought up, and played in a main deck no less, it's used instead as an argument to stress even more their disagreement with CB.

Miracles has a very hard time interacting with lands. Maybe they can deal with what those lands pop out, but ultimately they're not affected by StP/Terminus, Counterbalance or Countermagic.

[Whitefaces]

Lands assembled a 4-card combo against a "the" control deck of legacy, it demonstrated a game-ending loop of 20/20s - and it wouldn't have mattered in the slightest if he didn't also have Boseju. Just think about how ridiculous it is that you can demonstrate that much overkill, but it's still imperative to throw Boseju on top of it all. Lands clearly won that game many times over, but they had to use Boseju to prevent a lost victory - that should raise alarm bells. Boseju was card #5 just to deal with 1 card (Counterbalance), this is absurd.

A multitude of cards could win that game, a Marit Lage token is only powerful in the context of it being able to close out the game, it's far from a game ending loop. Why is it preventing a lost victory when the combo can be answered? This '4-card combo' can't beat Ensnaring Bridge, Blood Moon, Elephant Grass or even something as stupid is a StP on an Isochron Scepter either, overkill is the wrong way of describing it.

[Fox]

A multitude of cards could win that game, a Marit Lage token is only powerful in the context of it being able to close out the game, it's far from a game ending loop. Why is it preventing a lost victory when the combo can be answered? This '4-card combo' can't beat Ensnaring Bridge, Blood Moon, Elephant Grass or even something as stupid is a StP on an Isochron Scepter either, overkill is the wrong way of describing it.

Ensnaring Bridge is maindecked in Tezz and other decks you won't see. E-Grass shows up in Enchantress. No one uses Isochron Scepter. What you are mentioning here are cards that are built around when used and are fairly narrow; just look at how effective they are not at say stopping combo. I'm not sure what coming up with an example like Merfolk running Vodalian Illusionist maindeck as a build-order win over marit lage strats is an excuse for Counterbalance being okay in the format.

[Dice_Box]

Painter runs bridge main, Fish sometime run Waterfront Bouncer as a way to deal with things like our Dark Mistress.

[apple713]

As a combo lands player miracles has generally been one if the worst matchups, along with ant and D&T. However, many of us have adapted our decks into favorable positions vs it. We run abrupt decay, chalice of the void, and in the board some run surgical extraction, krosan grip, or pithing needle, or pernicious deed. Most of our decks maindeck 6-10 discard spells like duress, thoughtsieze, or inquisition. These are enough answers that the matchup is on the favorable to even side for us. The other thing about these cards is that they work well against other decks too. Chalice and surgical vs combo, deed vs dnt.

So please dont say there are not enough answers to miracles or that its too op. it can be beaten and it is not too dificult. It is simply the gold standard to enter the format as a viable legacy deck.

It is also worth noting that Miracles is probbaly the most mentally exaustive deck in the format. After a long day it is likely that mistakes will be made unless you have played the deck so much that it has become second nature.

[Whitefaces]

Ensnaring Bridge is maindecked in Tezz and other decks you won't see. E-Grass shows up in Enchantress. No one uses Isochron Scepter. What you are mentioning here are cards that are built around when used and are fairly narrow; just look at how effective they are not at say stopping combo. I'm not sure what coming up with an example like Merfolk running Vodalian Illusionist maindeck as a build-order win over marit lage strats is an excuse for Counterbalance being okay in the format.

I was using them as an example to show that just because someone assembles a 4 card combo they don't automatically win. Counterbalance is another card that beats this combo, that doesn't mean it's OP.

[iatee]

'Assembly a 4 card combo' sounds tough but the deck is basically designed to do nothing but assemble these kind of combos. Once you have a Loam online with Boseiju the rest is going to fall into place eventually. The deck plays 8 one mana tutors and 4 Loams which are slower tutors. The deck finds the cards it wants very, very effectively - that's why it's one of the only t1 Brainstorm-less decks around. Who needs Brainstorm when you have 8 pure tutors?

[Fox]

Painter runs bridge main, Fish sometime run Waterfront Bouncer as a way to deal with things like our Dark Mistress.
Sure, the point I'm making though is that naming random cards that beat card X doesn't make card X ok. It'd be like claiming that Yag Will is ok for legacy because Tormnod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus exist. On top of that we're naming cards that deal with very specific aspects of the meta-game, not a card that blanket covers 0-2 cmc without any real use of resources. I mean miracles leaves in CB vs lands who is maindecking Boseju, has ~7 ways to find it (Gamble + Crop Rot), and will definitely bring in K-Grip. That should say something about the power of the card especially when miracles is more than able to invalidate Loam with ~2x Surgical, 2x either Blood Moon or Back to Basics, 2x Rest in Peace post-board. Meanwhile there's no hate card vs miracles; Boil is still a 2-card combo with Boseju - b/c if it is run without uncounterable and it fails, they will resolve CB and you'll never cast another spell to any effect...it also doesn't really help you combat CB.
Resolve a largely unkillable on-board Ponder (SDT) into tap 2 islands (CB), is very likely to win a huge amount of games of legacy. You're immune to discard and there's no risk of backfiring (both are very real issues with SnT). It's just a little too skill-less to qualify as legitimate way to win a game; and it's not really the illegitimacy that matters but the power level and/or time-wasting that goes with it (at least you can scoop to 1,2 punches like Vault/Key).

If you think it's reasonable that lands should have to run Boseju just to beat miracles (i.e. CB), it's kind of insane. What other comparable cards require jumping through such outlandish hoops just to win games you've clearly demonstrated you won?

[iatee]

Miracles has one or two skill-less ways to win games, most legacy decks have the equivalent. Delver Daze Wasteland. T1 Storm kill. SnT with Force backup. Fast Lands combo kill. All of these are equivalently 'skill-less'. The difference is Miracles' tough games are way tougher than other decks' tough games.

[Hopo]

Fox, your position is very twisted. You basically argue that miracles would have been so extremely overpowered _without_ the Boseiju. I don't know how to explain this, but that's pretty much the reason you likely should play Boseiju.

You speak against adapting. That's like Trump-level stupid.

[Lemnear]

DRS is an interesting example of how loamstrategies can be hated out by a common maindeck card. Some would say the same of Abrupt Decay and Miracles, but I'd argue that DRS is primarily included because it's an overall busted card helping the maindeck strategy, and not because the meta pushes for maindeck gravehate.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=247550&type=card

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/489/nick-young-confused-face-300x256_nqlyaa.png

[Fox]

Fox, your position is very twisted. You basically argue that miracles would have been so extremely overpowered _without_ the Boseiju. I don't know how to explain this, but that's pretty much the reason you likely should play Boseiju.

You speak against adapting. That's like Trump-level stupid.
You're missing the "this is bullsh*t" aspect of CB. Lands murdered miracles in that game, and all that overkill (and it was excessive) wouldn't have mattered one bit if he didn't have Boseju. If recurring a 20/20 game-ender each turn isn't deserving of a win in legacy, I don't know what is. There are cards that can narrowly answer that recursion, but they sure as heck don't look good against combo and delver/responsible mana curves at the same time. Invalidating the resource known as a player's hand should not be so effortless and cost-free; understand that changing CB to read :u::u: Decree of Silence is less abusive...and emergency banned.

[DarthVicious]

Resolve a largely unkillable on-board Ponder (SDT) into tap 2 islands (CB), is very likely to win a huge amount of games of legacy. You're immune to discard and there's no risk of backfiring (both are very real issues with SnT). It's just a little too skill-less to qualify as legitimate way to win a game; and it's not really the illegitimacy that matters but the power level and/or time-wasting that goes with it

The only thing that bothers me about Countertop is that they get Chalice@1 AND Chalice@2 with Wear/Tear, not to mention an instant answer to whatever artifact/enchantment you might resolve as an out should the need arise. Terminus is much worse in my opinion... instant speed one-friggin-mana wraths... control decks shouldn't be shitting on fast aggro decks, they should be scared of them.

Countertop as a strategy can be played around with things like Vial/Caverns. Even Terminus can be come back from, assuming you can resolve spells and didn't overextend. It's the infernal wedding of the two that's put Legacy into the state it's in now. I'd vote for a divorce, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for one.

[Ingo]

@ Lemnear
Sure Punishing Fire is an answer to DRS. Just as DRS is an answer to Punishing Fire, ever tried to dredge into one?
Let's get back to Miracles, shall we?

http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2015/10/02/12/Will-Smith-Fresh-Prince.jpg

[Crimhead]

People are complaining about the lack of SB options to fight Miracles yet when one is brought up, and played in a main deck no less, it's used instead as an argument to stress even more their disagreement with CB.Miracles is a sore spot for a lot of players (or at least for a lot of Source users). Some people feel that Miracles is grossly OP and that WotC's failure to ban anything is a cruel injustice. To these folks, any discussion on how the meta can or should deal with Miracles undermines their plight.

Especially given the title of the article series, frustrated Miracles haters will only be agitated unless there is some serious tech that sends Miracles reeling.

The fact is in the current meta Elves, Jund, Maverick, Blade, and more will never have a good match against Miracles. Nobody has the secret recipe to give these decks a leg-up. We can discuss which (tier) decks are good or roughly even vs Miracles. We can discuss how various decks might improve thier Miracles match (even if, in some cases, it will still be a poor match). Or people can waste time complaining about Miracles and how unfair it is and hope to convince everyone on The Source that the deck is OP and needs a ban.


If you think it's reasonable that lands should have to run Boseju just to beat miracles (i.e. CB), it's kind of insane.How is it insane that a deck powered entirely by utility lands plus enablers would use... :gasp: a utility land hoser to help win a tight match-up. How is this even noteworthy? Is it equally insane that Fish & Eldrazi use CoS to beat counter-magic? I'm not getting this at all.


If recurring a 20/20 game-ender each turn isn't deserving of a win in legacy, I don't know what is.
D&T also has a lot of answers to Marit Lage, and is also a deck that can beat me despite making the token multiple times in a game. I don't see how this is evidence that D&T or Miracles are too good for the format.

[iatee]

I like how a two card (uncounterable...) combo that creates a 20/20 flying is 'deserving of a win' but a two card combo that stops another player from doing that is not 'deserving of a win'.

[btm10]

It's an interesting comparison but not entirely true, because in a rock-scissors-paper comparison, if Miracles were a rock there simply isn't a Tier1 deck that represents paper. Even Eldrazi, the worst Tier1 matchup for Miracles, does not seem to be overly dominant versus Miracles. At least not in the way that Lands is dominated by fast combodecks.


I don't think it's quite this simple, and it's telling that Sneak and Show moved back into the DTB this month, likely on the strength of its Miracles, Lands, and Shardless matchups (yes, it's at least partly due to it being an excellent Boseiju deck, but I don't think it's a bad thing). There are decks out there with favorable Miracles matchups that don't suck against the field, but they are (for a variety of reasons) not widely played.

A lot of people (including, to an extent, me) are frustrated that Miracles makes the case for playing any other fair blue deck questionable given what other people are actually playing. That being said, I don't think the format is squeezed enough from other angles to ban anything yet.

[Fox]

How is it insane that a deck powered entirely by utility lands plus enablers would use... :gasp: a utility land hoser to help win a tight match-up. How is this even noteworthy? Is it equally insane that Fish & Eldrazi use CoS to beat counter-magic? I'm not getting this at all.

D&T also has a lot of answers to Marit Lage, and is also a deck that can beat me despite making the token multiple times in a game. I don't see how this is evidence that D&T or Miracles are too good for the format.
Lands using utility nonbasics obviously makes a ton of sense, but firing perfectly against "the" control deck largely uncontested being totally invalidated if they tap 2 islands despite failing to avoid the most savage beating isn't ok - at no point when miracles fails so completely to stop your deck should you have to use Boseju to make sure overkill actually kills them. The Boseju solution is so far over the top of what is reasonable to win a game lands has so clearly won many times over.

Yes, some strategies can just have your number; lands after all is using a colored token with 20 power (and probably the graveyard). This will obviously have issues with Mother of Runes + flying creature and their sideboard; just as they will have issues with P-Fire. Counterbalance has >50% of the format's number for the most part, DnT doesn't. An answer to the 1-sided, evasive Counterbalance threat necessarily has to be so ridiculously past the point of reasonable.

What is the craziest card you've had to maindeck just to make sure you don't lose to exactly one card? That's basically the territory you have to venture in to vs a card that invalidates answers and sometimes entire decks. Maindecking Boseju....it never should have gotten to this point.

[Ingo]

I don't think it's quite this simple, and it's telling that Sneak and Show moved back into the DTB this month, likely on the strength of its Miracles, Lands, and Shardless matchups (yes, it's at least partly due to it being an excellent Boseiju deck, but I don't think it's a bad thing). There are decks out there with favorable Miracles matchups that don't suck against the field, but they are (for a variety of reasons) not widely played.

A lot of people (including, to an extent, me) are frustrated that Miracles makes the case for playing any other fair blue deck questionable given what other people are actually playing. That being said, I don't think the format is squeezed enough from other angles to ban anything yet.

You are right, the rock-scissors-paper comparison is a simplification, but generally speaking it is true though. Leaving lots of subtleties out of the picture; Lands preys on tempo, tempo preys on combo, combo preys on Lands (fortunately combo is underrepresented in comparison to delver). I see many decks that Miracles flatout dominates, but no tier strategies dominating Miracles. So I presume that's why Miracles is so good, it has good to even matchups, but hardly any bad ones.
Eldrazi might be somewhat favored against Miracles, but I have the impression it's closer to even, than it is to very favored, isnt it? Or which matchups are you referring to, that are good vs Miracles but not widely played?


What is the craziest card you've had to maindeck just to make sure you don't lose to exactly one card? That's basically the territory you have to venture in to vs a card that invalidates answers and sometimes entire decks. Maindecking Boseju....it never should have gotten to this point.

Boseiju is a dreadful card to have in the main vs non-Miracles (2 life per activation for no reason ... ), but adding such a card to the main is a custom thing for Lands to do. Usually for combo though, in the form of Karakas, or Bojuka Bog. At the very least these produce mana without costing life.
The most crazy card I've seen being splashed in Lands was World Breaker and a single Waste in the main. At least a 7-mana card dodges counterbalance. And as long we're in the 7-mana range, a gamblable call the skybreaker in Lands would be so much fun to resolve over and over versus Miracles :tongue: (come to think of it, that would even dodge Bloodmoon too ... )

[Chatto]

Fox, have you ever played RGCL? Because without Loam you're not going to be able to make The Witch every damn turn. You are right to say it never should get so far as to maindeck Boseiju, and we can talk the whole night about this, but Boseiju is just a neccesary Evil if Miracles is all around.

[KobeBryan]

garbage article with fluff.

You could have saved 15 minutes reading a couple of lines instead of 3/4 of the fluff.

[Fox]

I like how a two card (uncounterable...) combo that creates a 20/20 flying is 'deserving of a win' but a two card combo that stops another player from doing that is not 'deserving of a win'.
Read back a few pages, watch the game we're discussing. There was a complete failure to stop a 4 card combo that said I make a 20/20 every turn at instant speed until this deck runs out of multiples of 3 cards for the purposes of dredging. Joe dealt with a ridiculous number of these 20/20s, but every time he had to use cards - if at any point he wasn't up against Boseju he would have easily won out of nowhere on the back of Counterbalance vs an one of the worst beatdowns possible in legacy.

There are decks that can deal with that, but they have some really terrible matchups. Also the post which you're referencing discusses legitimacy of auto-win combos not really being valid, because it's subjective. It doesn't matter that I think Splinter Twin + Exarch/Pestermite or Earthcraft/Squirrel's Nest are Hearthstone levels of stupid; that's not really a valid point in discussing such things not belonging in Magic, it's just a personal opinion.

@Chatto - I understand how the deck works and plays, yes. When people have to use real resources [cards from hand] to counter Loam, they aren't passing out an ultimatum that says unless you run Boseju you will probably lose...no matter how completely they have failed to stop your wincon contraption. You can run specifically hateful strategies, but running CB isn't giving miracles game losses, and that's the hallmark of hate - there is [supposed to be] a price you pay.

[square_two]

Fox, your position is very twisted. You basically argue that miracles would have been so extremely overpowered _without_ the Boseiju. I don't know how to explain this, but that's pretty much the reason you likely should play Boseiju.

You speak against adapting. That's like Trump-level stupid.

Question I'm wondering is, how far should the majority of decks in the format have to adapt to Miracles before you will admit that perhaps Miracles is overpowered? Do you think there is even a "too far"? If we start seeing multiple "anti-Miracles" versions of prominent decks, would that convince you?

[DarthVicious]

If you think it's reasonable that lands should have to run Boseju just to beat miracles (i.e. CB), it's kind of insane. What other comparable cards require jumping through such outlandish hoops just to win games you've clearly demonstrated you won?


If you think it's reasonable that Wizards should have to print Abrupt Decay just to beat miracles (i.e. CB), it's kind of insane. What other comparable cards require jumping through such outlandish hoops just to win games you've clearly demonstrated you won?


If you think it's reasonable that Aggro should have to run Cavern of Souls just to beat miracles (i.e. CB), it's kind of insane. What other comparable cards require jumping through such outlandish hoops just to win games you've clearly demonstrated you won?


If you think it's reasonable that Anyone should have to run Hate just to beat their opponent, it's kind of insane. What other comparable cards require jumping through such outlandish hoops just to win games you've clearly demonstrated you won?

I just had to. I may have partially proved your point in doing so, but it doesn't matter. I had to. Comedic value is important.

[Hopo]

You're missing the "this is bullsh*t" aspect of CB. Lands murdered miracles in that game, and all that overkill (and it was excessive) wouldn't have mattered one bit if he didn't have Boseju. If recurring a 20/20 game-ender each turn isn't deserving of a win in legacy, I don't know what is.

He won. What's your point? No deck deserves to win unless it does. You are overly sentimental about this. Recurring 20/20's usually wins you the game but not always. This time it did and you are somehow mad about it. You should be happy that Lands has found a card to deal with a bad matchup. Instead you were furious that a deck only needs to put in exactly one card to have a game against the best deck in the format. Sounds pretty retarded, doesn't it?

[Fox]

He won. What's your point?
He loses a game he clearly won if he doesn't have exactly Boseju. This isn't ok.

Stop pretending like any other card in legacy requires such profoundly excessive responses.

[Ingo]

I just had to. I may have partially proved your point in doing so, but it doesn't matter. I had to. Comedic value is important.

There's a huge difference though between maindecking Abrupt Decay, Cavern of Souls on one side, and Boseiju on the other though. The first cards are really useful in other matchups, you usually won't board them out. Boseiju with its 2-life payment, not so much, that's a really narrow silverbullet solely intended for one matchup.

So I do agree with Fox that maindecking a Boseiju in Lands is a signal of Miracles increasing power, nowadays making up such amount of the meta and with new cards like Mentor, wear/tear, ... making a narrow card like Boseiju in the main worthwhile.

[Hopo]

Question I'm wondering is, how far should the majority of decks in the format have to adapt to Miracles before you will admit that perhaps Miracles is overpowered? Do you think there is even a "too far"? If we start seeing multiple "anti-Miracles" versions of prominent decks, would that convince you?

I don't know why you address me. I never made any claims like that.

In other formats when a deck gets popular, players react by choosing decks that have a good matchup against it. For some reason legacy seems to lack this aspect. Maybe eventually because players are less competitive and more casual, sticking to their one deck?

Miracles is good deck, no doubt. Maybe people should try to beat it by playing decks that have game against it. When I start to plan for a tournament, I make sure to play a deck that doesn't scoop to miracles/storm/delver. If miracles is dominating but people refuse to play better decks to fight back, is that really miracles' fault?

[Chatto]

He loses a game he clearly won if he doesn't have exactly Boseju. This isn't ok.

Stop pretending like any other card in legacy requires such profoundly excessive responses.

If your point is 'Miracles is OP', then yes perhaps, you are right. If you think something should be done about it, then yes, I agree. The fact is, WotC hasn't done anything about it, and well, players adapt. It's not what we want to see, but it is the reality we live in. As long as Miracles is around (someone said the Golden Standard) people will try cards to take it down.

[Hopo]

He loses a game he clearly won if he doesn't have exactly Boseju. This isn't ok.

Stop pretending like any other card in legacy requires such profoundly excessive responses.

Excessive response? Like maindecking a single card - fetchable with 8 tutors - that fits the deck rather nicely? Say no more.

[btm10]

How is it insane that a deck powered entirely by utility lands plus enablers would use... :gasp: a utility land hoser to help win a tight match-up. How is this even noteworthy? Is it equally insane that Fish & Eldrazi use CoS to beat counter-magic? I'm not getting this at all.


I think this is where the entire breakdown is. The (perceived) problem with using Boseiju or Cavern of Souls to beat Counterbalance is that they push the entire format more towards decks that just play past each other. You seem to be ok with this scenario, but from the banning of Mental Misstep to mid-2013, interaction was the rule rather than the exception, and most people prefer to play interactive Magic rather than try to see who can effectively goldfish faster.



In other formats when a deck gets popular, players react by choosing decks that have a good matchup against it. For some reason legacy seems to lack this aspect. Maybe eventually because players are less competitive and more casual, sticking to their one deck?


I think a lot of people are trying things to improve their Miracles matchups, but it's much harder for the average player to change decks in Legacy than in Standard or Modern due to the cost and availability of cards. Building a new, legitimately competitive deck takes a significant amount of time and testing with good playtest partners, and many good Legacy players (understandably) want to spend their playtest time working on their Miracles, Delver, Eldrazi, Shardless, or ANT matchups.

[ESG]

@DarthVicious: Exactly. Miracles has maintained its dominance despite the liberal use of Abrupt Decay and Cavern of Souls. Abrupt Decay is omnipresent, in fact. Most players are attempting to answer the matchup, but their efforts are still falling short. The hallmark of an overpowered deck is when you have to dedicate an excessive proportion of your deck and sideboard in order to make a matchup favorable. This leaves you vulnerable to other strategies, making it worse EV to play a hate-packed deck than to play the best deck yourself. This is a phenomenon that happens in any Constructed Magic format.

I saw Monastery Mentors run over 12-Post last night (Miracles won the match), which is not indicative of how the matchup always will play out, but it underlines my observation of Mentor's power. I think Minniehajj and Phazonmutant, who are running 4-Mentor lists, would be able to amplify this point. Mentor improves many of the deck's less-favorable matchups and allows it to shift into a hyper-aggro mode that can rapidly take over a game even if the Mentor is removed on the following turn. Miracles has enough powerful cards, enough flexible answer cards, and enough different builds that beating it consistently is difficult for most decks. The question is whether other cards that are strong against Miracles can be incorporated into existing decks or whether new decks can be brewed that are able to not fold to everything else in the format.


@square_two: I like your question. Unfortunately, past history has shown us that every period preceding a ban involves very similar defenses of busted cards, and most Source members have demonstrated that they don't like to explore hypothetical situations of metagame breakdown. Personally, I love hypothetical analysis because it tends to shed light on card balance. Back in 2008 or 2009, when Tarmogoyf was everywhere and even being slotted into Merfolk decks over Merfolk(!), the defense for Tarmogoyf was "It's a vanilla creature." The counterargument was the creation of Jesus Christ It's a Lion (may have been one word), a fictional creature that was, if memory serves, a 20/20 for two mana. This was exploring how grossly pushed a vanilla creature would have be before people would stop defending it with the "vanilla creature" argument.

Fox's observation "Maindecking Boseju....it never should have gotten to this point" is very similar to the discussion on these boards of main deck Pyroblasts and Chokes during the Delve era, which is recent enough that a number of posters in this thread should recognize it and remember. It's not like I'm the old man here. Sylvan Plug was the ultimate hate deck, but hate decks are only successful when they can perform well against a good chunk of the rest of the field, or when the deck they are hating out is played by 30 percent or more of the field and they can expect to play against it multiple times in an event. They need the top deck to be played in significant numbers because they are usually weak to many other strategies.

In most tournaments, Miracles is not played by enough players to make a dedicated hate deck a profitable venture (except maybe out of spite). This is a key reason why Miracles has maintained its spot as the top deck, or one of the top decks, for more than two years.

[square_two]

I don't know why you address me. I never made any claims like that.

In other formats when a deck gets popular, players react by choosing decks that have a good matchup against it. For some reason legacy seems to lack this aspect. Maybe eventually because players are less competitive and more casual, sticking to their one deck?

Miracles is good deck, no doubt. Maybe people should try to beat it by playing decks that have game against it. When I start to plan for a tournament, I make sure to play a deck that doesn't scoop to miracles/storm/delver. If miracles is dominating but people refuse to play better decks to fight back, is that really miracles' fault?

Sorry, I probably didn't quite mean to address you personally.

I am all for tailoring your deck to the meta, even shifting decks when necessary. I started playing Legacy last summer with Elves. I haven't touched it in quite a while, and for good reason most likely.

I think people do board many sideboard cards to try to approach the Miracles matchup in better ways. I don't think you have to look far on any of the established deck forums to see people questioning and trying to find better sideboard cards against Miracles. To think that everyone, everywhere, is simply underprepared seems kind of odd. The issue is that even good cards against Miracles can easily be shut down by Miracle's own sideboarding. I've had so many Libraries, Null Rods, Needles, etc killed by Wear//Tear. Even the Boseiju being talked about is answered with Blood Moon which some Miracles decks will sideboard. And the thing is, Miracles is probably the bar-none best deck at finding their sideboard cards. It's a blue deck with the most extreme card selection and filtering (that I know of). Great, I killed their Counterbalance with an Abrupt Decay...all it did was help me lose less fast, you know?

At some point, I'm saying, if the majority of decks have to sideboard aggresively, or even maindeck aggresively, to combat one singular deck, then that is a clear sign that that singular deck is overpowered and is warping the format. Maybe we aren't there yet.

Back to the original article -- if better tools or methodology can be brought to light to the community, then great. Maybe there are things about the matchup that many of us have been misunderstanding. Or some unconventional strategy can be uncovered.

[Fox]

Excessive response? Like maindecking a single card - fetchable with 8 tutors - that fits the deck rather nicely? Say no more.
Maindecking Boseju will cost you games, it's hateful. It is done to combat 1 card (CB) which completely undermines >50% of the field, but unlike a hate card running CB doesn't cost you win %, quite the opposite. I have no issue with actual hate cards in the maindeck; if you want to want to run things like maindeck Choke or Chains, more power to you, message received, I salute you. Counterbalance has no price attached and you've got a tier 1-1.5 deck (lands) saying they'll get further in comp REL events if they run that Boseju main - that's concerning. Boseju isn't totally useless in other matchups, but it's not exactly a recipe for success.

@Chatto - I don't really care about 56 cards being resistant to a wide range of strategies including punishing discard through constant value derivation though SDT activation. It is only because of CB giving its land cards and SDT "tap: counter target spell" that I find the miracles offensive. If you value control deck (or Tundra) diversity, CB is bad for legacy. If you value breaking up :b: or :g: having to be played together for Decay for diversity, CB is bad for legacy. If you value less time wasting (especially in longer events), CB is bad for legacy. There are more logical arguments you can make here, that have nothing to do with subjective opinions on the card Counterbalance. CB reduces answers to entire deck construction, not playing magic (uncounterable types), and game actions (which don't win post-board games).

The best advice for killing miracles is [in the absence of irresponsible mana curves]: don't let CB affect you. That means becoming your own DCI, either make it irrelevant (Cavern/Boseju are better than Decay, though all qualify) or find some way to get it into a graveyard and RFG it with Surgical effects. Should you have to go to these lengths? Absolutely not, but that's the response this card demands.

You'll always hear people going on about how Terminus is the real problem, but again Surgical the StP - you are using creatures that win 1v1 fights vs a 3/1 flier (less commonly, and less quickly, it's Mentor or 4/4 angels)...You keep losing not to Terminus, but the ~6 castings of StP (SCM's flashback). There is of course the problem though that the Jester's Cap approach to miracles vis-a-vis Surgical doesn't work against resolved CB/SDT, but it's probably your best shot. This assessment is less germane to decks that would naturally be running Decay regardless of the existence of CB.

p.s. if you're gonna yolo-kill miracles with that Winter Orb, I'd suggest Wasteland targeting Volc, Surgical the Volc, and hope they don't run basic Mountain. Wear requires red mana.

[Chatto]

@ Fox: am I missing something? I think we are on the same team here. The only difference between us? CB is a card, people play the card, I will play Boseiju. I just don't get why you are so angry about maindecking Boseiju. Your advice says it all, don't let CB affect you: maindeck Boseiju does just that. Why give solid advice, and then burn people who take your advice?

I get it, you don't like cb, neither do I. It's just the card isn't banned, and Miracles is still a deck. I like to play MtG, and if that means I have to adapt, so be it.

[Crimhead]

What is the craziest card you've had to maindeck just to make sure you don't lose to exactly one card?
Ignoring that Counter-Top is two cards not one, I main deck six-eight cards to not lose to DRS.

Before DRS hit the scene, Lands handled creatures with Mishra's Factory, Engineered Explosives, and an extra Maze. Sometimes a Barbarian Ring. DRS caused Lands players to radically restructure their decks, and Punishing RUG Lands become the norm until the Legend change.

[Fox]

@ Fox: am I missing something? I think we are on the same team here. The only difference between us? CB is a card, people play the card, I will play Boseiju. I just don't get why you are so angry about maindecking Boseiju. Your advice says it all, don't let CB affect you: maindeck Boseiju does just that. Why give solid advice, and then burn people who take your advice?

I get it, you don't like cb, neither do I. It's just the card isn't banned, and Miracles is still a deck. I like to play MtG, and if that means I have to adapt, so be it.
Maindecking Boseju is beyond what one should reasonably have to do. You will lose some non-miracles matches b/c Boseju showed up at some inopportune time; but lands players are either testing the hypothesis or have figured out that they have a better chance to go deeper into a long event by mainboarding a card targeted directly at Counterbalance regardless of the cost.

Insert any excessively hateful card which really only hits 1 card, and make a case for why it is healthy that a deck should seriously consider running that card in the main. A card like Ravenous Trap might be too broad for the metaphor, but like level of powerful hate - why is that in a maindeck an indicator of good format health?

@Crimhead - the Grove/P-Fire package grants huge win % vs the field. You could ban DRS today, and it would still be in lands.

[Dice_Box]

You guys have just posted two and a half pages of the same thing, without getting anywhere at all. Maybe you should give it a rest.

[civet five]

@ Fox: am I missing something? I think we are on the same team here. The only difference between us? CB is a card, people play the card, I will play Boseiju. I just don't get why you are so angry about maindecking Boseiju. Your advice says it all, don't let CB affect you: maindeck Boseiju does just that. Why give solid advice, and then burn people who take your advice?

I get it, you don't like cb, neither do I. It's just the card isn't banned, and Miracles is still a deck. I like to play MtG, and if that means I have to adapt, so be it.

Maindecking Boseiju is about as healthy for the format as maindecking Pyroblasts last summer was. You do what you have to do to try to win, but I don't think its a sign of a good format

[Crimhead]

...but from the banning of Mental Misstep to mid-2013, interaction was the rule rather than the exception, and most people prefer to play interactive Magic rather than try to see who can effectively goldfish faster...


As you probably know, I am a dedicated Lands and have been since 2013. I find the vast majority of matches to be highly interactive.
Personally I found post MM - 2013 to be the worst era of Legacy. Prison decks like Enchantress, Stax, and Lands were not competetive. Combo seemed to be at an all time low. Even hard control (Landstill) seemed to be declining in favour of Blade decks. Linear Aggro such as Zoo & Merfolk were also growing weaker, even Goblins. Almost everyone was playing Thresh or a Midrange deck like Maverick, Deadguy, UWx Stoneblade, Jund, etc. Even Goblins was leaning towards midrange, being called "Red D&T"; while struggling Zoo decks were looking more and more like Maverick with a red splash. Basically, this was as closest to Modern as Legacy had ever come!
I'm very happy with Legacy now. The variety of viably play-styles far exceeds that of 2011-2013. I know some people loved Maverick Summer; and they SAF didn't care if I was unhappy because my pet prison decks were not tier one! Some people love Legacy right now, and nobody should expect any sympathy if they don't.


Maindecking Boseiju is about as healthy for the format as maindecking Pyroblasts last summer was. You do what you have to do to try to win, but I don't think its a sign of a good format
I was very upset when Lands was forced to dump Factories in favour of Punishing-Grove, and it was all because of DRS. Nobody thinks this is a sign of a bad format. I guess having to main decking a 6-8 card package to fight a card fair decks run is healthy, but main decking a singleton to fight control is a sign of tough times? :rolleyes:

Here's the deal - this thread is should focus on the theme of the article series - how to best adapt your deck to improve your Miracles match. If you are not seriously interested in adapting to the state of the meta, but would rather complain about the state of the meta and curse the decks that do adapt, why are you even posting in this thread?

Some people actually would like to read ideas about dealing with Miracles. Personally I have never main-decked Bosieju, and am intrigued by that decision. What this says about the format is irrelevant and off topic.

[Watersaw]

As you probably know, I am a dedicated Lands and have been since 2013. I find the vast majority of matches to be highly interactive.
Personally I found post MM - 2013 to be the worst era of Legacy. Prison decks like Enchantress, Stax, and Lands were not competetive. Combo seemed to be at an all time low. Even hard control (Landstill) seemed to be declining in favour of Blade decks. Linear Aggro such as Zoo & Merfolk were also growing weaker, even Goblins. Almost everyone was playing Thresh or a Midrange deck like Maverick, Deadguy, UWx Stoneblade, Jund, etc. Even Goblins was leaning towards midrange, being called "Red D&T"; while struggling Zoo decks were looking more and more like Maverick with a red splash. Basically, this was as closest to Modern as Legacy had ever come!
I'm very happy with Legacy now. The variety of viably play-styles far exceeds that of 2011-2013. I know some people loved Maverick Summer; and they SAF didn't care if I was unhappy because my pet prison decks were not tier one! Some people love Legacy right now, and nobody should expect any sympathy if they don't.


I was very upset when Lands was forced to dump Factories in favour of Punishing-Grove, and it was all because of DRS. Nobody thinks this is a sign of a bad format. I guess having to main decking a 6-8 card package to fight a card fair decks run is healthy, but main decking a singleton to fight control is a sign of tough times? :rolleyes:

Here's the deal - this thread is should focus on the theme of the article series - how to best adapt your deck to improve your Miracles match. If you are not seriously interested in adapting to the state of the meta, but would rather complain about the state of the meta and curse the decks that do adapt, why are you even posting in this thread?

Some people actually would like to read ideas about dealing with Miracles. Personally I have never main-decked Bosieju, and am intrigued by that decision. What this says about the format is irrelevant and off topic.

I question the current-day playability of Stax and Enchantress. As for hard control, every other deck that employs this strategy is weaker than Miracles across the board (I realize that Jund and Shardless have some better match ups, but by and large Miracles is the "right" choice).

People would love to discuss ways to improve their Miracles match-up if the article actually presented any ideas. He starts off saying "don't Force SDT" and then lists times you might want to Force SDT. Unless we want to argue specific context in respect to a certain counterspell we get to sit here and wait until the thrilling sequel is released.

I fell like there are very few (discovered) cards that do significant damage to Miracles and fit into a generic shell. Suppression Field is powerful, but needs come down fast. That means a low fetchland count because at least 3 cards in your own deck sabotage them. Someone mentioned Chalice of the Void, but we all know the problems with that play. Mainboard Choke is laughable on paper but it might actually come to that for some.

[DarthVicious]

How about, in the interest of progress, instead of compiling and recompiling the reasons behind the disdain for Miracles, we compile a list of cards we can use against Miracles?

I'm talking an all encompassing list. No judgement calls necessary, no replies disputing effectiveness or testing verification, if it works in theory then it works and it's on the list. We can make notes on effectiveness later. Also... use card tags.

I'll start with a few obvious ones:


Aether Vial
Cavern of Souls
Winter Orb
Abrupt Decay
Boil
Boiling Seas
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Extirpate
Surgical Extraction


And a couple not so obvious ones:


Flashfires
Stench of Evil
Blurred Mongoose
Akroma, Angel of Fury
Demigod of Revenge


With any luck we'll come up with a list long enough that someone will find something REALLY good eventually.

[Lemnear]

How about, in the interest of progress, instead of compiling and recompiling the reasons behind the disdain for Miracles, we compile a list of cards we can use against Miracles?

I'm talking an all encompassing list. No judgement calls necessary, no replies disputing effectiveness or testing verification, if it works in theory then it works and it's on the list. We can make notes on effectiveness later. Also... use card tags.

I'll start with a few obvious ones:


Aether Vial
Cavern of Souls
Winter Orb
Abrupt Decay
Boil
Boiling Seas
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Extirpate
Surgical Extraction


And a couple not so obvious ones:


Flashfires
Stench of Evil
Blurred Mongoose
Akroma, Angel of Fury
Demigod of Revenge


With any luck we'll come up with a list long enough that someone will find something REALLY good eventually.

There is no haymaker which doesn't get countered or removed by Wear/Tear, Judgement, Plows or Terminus. You would have to absolutely overload your sideboard with these cards ... oh, and that after potentially having lost game 1

[Julian23]

What Lemnear said in his post.

It's over 1.5 years when I said that ever since mid/late 2014, beating Miracles with non-blue decks can't just rely on Enchantments/Artifacts. Ever since around that time, they've been auto-sideboarding 2 Wear//Tear. These days I even see that number go up to 3.

Fighting Miracles needs to be done via Planeswalkers, Lands and Instant/Sorciers. Unfortunatley there's little options. Planeswalkers are nice, but they don't dominate games vs them. Krosan Grip is amazing, probably one of the best cards vs them but unfortunately really not very good vs the rest of the meta. That leaves us with Cavern of Souls which is good, but doesn't carry enough weight.

What we need is a way to interact with Terminus. Either by getting a way around it (similar to Ghost Way, but good) or somehow heavily punish them for using Terminus.

[Stuart]

I'm talking an all encompassing list. No judgement calls necessary, no replies disputing effectiveness or testing verification, if it works in theory then it works and it's on the list. We can make notes on effectiveness later. Also... use card tags.

If this is a no-judgment zone, and I can get away with no card tags (I'm on my phone and drinking):
- Choke
- City of Solitude
- Tsunami
- Manabarbs?!?!
- Liliana
- Chains
- Spirit of the Labyrinth
- Smokestack
- Sulfuric Vortex
- Vexing Shusher
- Exquisite Firecraft

[Jain_Mor]

The best card for countering terminus that I've seen outside of Gaddock Teeg and blue decks is
Abeyance.

[ESG]

What we need is a way to interact with Terminus. Either by getting a way around it (similar to Ghost Way, but good) or somehow heavily punish them for using Terminus.

I fully agree, Julian. There are really only a few options to try to deal with Terminus, which is why the format is stuck. Some people enjoy this state, and others would like to move on to somewhere else. These are the options:

1) Play counterspells or Stifle or a bunch of other blue cards that can stop Terminus.
2) Don't play creatures (this pretty much applies to Burn, Enchantress, combo decks, Leylines -- if this is even a real deck -- and any deck running a bunch of planeswalkers).
3) Play 12-Post, which is banking on infinite Emrakul and casting triggers (Primeval Titan is basically an upgraded Explosive Vegetation).
4 Play cards that are creatures temporarily (manlands).
5) Assemble a Gaddock Teeg protected in 2-3 ways (such as strapped with a pro-white Sword and Sylvan Safekeeper keeping watch).
6) Go really deep with the hate cards and run Slaughter Games (naming Terminus) and/or Glooms to turn Terminus back into Wrath of God (4 CMC).

Spoiler alert: I have run ALL of these things in Legacy over the last two years. The conclusion I came to was that their viability matches the order I placed them in.

1) Playing stack-based interaction is the best EV for a tournament. Most people came to this conclusion long ago. Some people wouldn't have it any other way.

2) Not playing creatures is the next-best option, although planeswalkers are held back by Counterspell. Planeswalkers won't really be competitive until we get more 2-mana and 3-mana walkers that actually have game-winning ultimates (such as Jace). Most planeswalkers are slow and terrible because they are built for the power level of Standard.

3) 12-Post is great to beat Miracles, but I don't like the deck in most other matchups. If you consider yourself a proficient 12-Post player, this is your challenge.

4) I think Inkmoth Nexus is the best manland, followed by Creeping Tar Pit.

5) There's a deck called Vial Maverick that does this turtle-up move the best, but it was built before Monastery Mentor, and the deck has no real way to answer that card before it completely takes over. Sdematt used to like this strategy in Junk, but I don't know if he is still sticking with that or if he has moved on to Category 1, stack-based interaction.

6) I really wish Slaughter Games had cost 1BR. I think Legacy decks would be way more interesting. Unfortunately, it costs 2BR. Feel free to try it in your own builds, but the best results will be if you can speed it up, such as with Dark Ritual. Gloom is fine but the definition of narrow. You're gunning for Miracles, and you can conceivably royally screw over Death and Taxes. The sucky part is, half the time you'll cast this card on Turn 2 or Turn 3 and it will trade with a Counterspell or a Force of Will, because those 6-7 cards are just naturally in Miracles. Gloom is best when your deck is already set up with a bunch of solid cards against Miracles. You want to overwhelm their deck with threats. Gloom plus a fast clock or Gloom plus land destruction is the best, since Miracles will eventually draw out of it (just like with Pox).

WOTC has not given us any relevant leaves-the-battlefield triggers outside of Thragtusk, so punishing the casting of Terminus isn't really possible. Grenzo has the problem of being a creature; otherwise it would be a playable answer. It would be great if WOTC would explore this design space if Terminus is to be forever in the format.

[Julian23]

Great post ESG. It's funny you mention Slaughter Games because I also tried to make it work as a crossover-card for the Miracles/Combo matchup. But the mana cost is really prohibitive.

[Lemnear]

What Lemnear said in his post.

It's over 1.5 years when I said that ever since mid/late 2014, beating Miracles with non-blue decks can't just rely on Enchantments/Artifacts. Ever since around that time, they've been auto-sideboarding 2 Wear//Tear. These days I even see that number go up to 3.

Fighting Miracles needs to be done via Planeswalkers, Lands and Instant/Sorciers. Unfortunatley there's little options. Planeswalkers are nice, but they don't dominate games vs them. Krosan Grip is amazing, probably one of the best cards vs them but unfortunately really not very good vs the rest of the meta. That leaves us with Cavern of Souls which is good, but doesn't carry enough weight.

What we need is a way to interact with Terminus. Either by getting a way around it (similar to Ghost Way, but good) or somehow heavily punish them for using Terminus.

Plenty of my previous made point is this threat also root on your testing/streaming with Elves and watching you among others to work in stuff like Choke in their respective creature decks. Wear/Tear is a no-brainer, working ridiculously good with CounterTop and removes all nasty artifacts/enchantments for 1-2 mana which is the same range if manainvestment Miracles uses to kill creatures (Plows/Terminus) or to counter spells (flusterstorm/Countertop) so dopping permanent based hate is not only not quite the blindspot you want it to be, but most of the time even a bad play from a tempo perspective (3cc chocke vs. 1cc Wear/Tear), giving Miracles even more virtual mana to increase their cardquality with SDT & Friends.

I agree on planeswalkers as a possible angle of attack, but have doubt about the Lands in general, as there was a time Miracles actually played Wasteland to fight OmniTells Boseijus and I think, that might hapoen again, if the Legendary Lands gets more attention in the future, but Boseiju hardly is an option for the wide metagame, because of the fact that it only produces colorless mana and comes into play tapped. If WotC really wanted to mess with the Counterspells in Legacy, they probably would need to breed Boseiju with City of Brass: Tap to add one mana of your choice to your manapool and eat 3 damage. Any spell casted with that mana is uncounterable. No more hiding being counterwalls and rewards the active player.

I would step back from punisher-mechanics. Its not that SpiritOfTheLabyrinth was living up to its hype despite all the cantrips in the format. Maybe some more aggressive gaddock teeg variants (and less color restirctive) would be a possible fix

[btm10]

[LIST=1]
As you probably know, I am a dedicated Lands and have been since 2013. I find the vast majority of matches to be highly interactive.

I was trying to explain why some people think that Boseiju maindeck would be seen as a problem, and didn't say anything about whether or not Lands in general is interactive. Boseiju, however, is pretty clearly there specifically to limit interaction.



Personally I found post MM - 2013 to be the worst era of Legacy. Prison decks like Enchantress, Stax, and Lands were not competetive. Combo seemed to be at an all time low. Even hard control (Landstill) seemed to be declining in favour of Blade decks. Linear Aggro such as Zoo & Merfolk were also growing weaker, even Goblins. Almost everyone was playing Thresh or a Midrange deck like Maverick, Deadguy, UWx Stoneblade, Jund, etc. Even Goblins was leaning towards midrange, being called "Red D&T"; while struggling Zoo decks were looking more and more like Maverick with a red splash. Basically, this was as closest to Modern as Legacy had ever come!

I'm very happy with Legacy now. The variety of viably play-styles far exceeds that of 2011-2013. I know some people loved Maverick Summer; and they SAF didn't care if I was unhappy because my pet prison decks were not tier one! Some people love Legacy right now, and nobody should expect any sympathy if they don't.

First, I made an error and the era you don't like should run from the banning of Mental Misstep to mid 2014, not 2013.

Even then, though, combo was doing fine - I can't find a single month where the DTBF didn't have a combo deck in it, though there's a chance I missed one. Despite that, Enchantress was fine throughout the Maverick/Blade era, largely on the back of kicking the shit out of Maverick and Blade decks; the issue with its performance has always been that it's never been a terribly popular deck regardless of positioning, and the same thing is true of Stax and Lands before the Legend rule change. Calling that format Modern-like is nonsense: Modern never had a viable control deck other than Twin prior to the unbanning of Ancestral Vision, and I doubt that Twin meets your definition because it was hybridized a number of ways, even within Ur, and its combo decks- even Storm- invariably involved creatures.

'Hard' Control (by your definition) has always ebbed and flowed with the quality of threats, regardless of format. Your argument that Miracles should get a pass even if it's oppressive because it can be built as one particular way of building a control deck is fundamentally selfish and is the definition of special pleading.



I was very upset when Lands was forced to dump Factories in favour of Punishing-Grove, and it was all because of DRS. Nobody thinks this is a sign of a bad format. I guess having to main decking a 6-8 card package to fight a card fair decks run is healthy, but main decking a singleton to fight control is a sign of tough times? :rolleyes:


I'm sorry you were brutally forced to incorporate a superior game plan. If Factory were that important, I'm sure people could dedicate at least one sideboard slot to it.

[Dice_Box]

Whoops. Accidentally submitted the post before writing it. I'll finish by editing it, but that's what I get for writing this on my phone.
Tapatalk to the rescue?

[btm10]

Tapatalk to the rescue?

I'm not that sophisticated. Just ham-handed-ness.

[Crimhead]

...beating Miracles with non-blue decks can't just rely on Enchantments/Artifacts.
Eldrazi and Aggro Loam have good matches with a big thanks to Chalice. I'm not that well versed in the D&T Miracles match, but I understand it's pretty even? I'm not assuming Vial plays a big role here (I know Goblins s runs Vial and has s good Miracles match, but unfortunately is not very good vs the rest of the field).

If you are talking about Maverick/Jund/Junk midrange decks, IMO these decks have already successfully adapted to the current meta. The problem is that these decks adapted by evolving into the current Aggro-Loam configuration; and most Maverick/Jund/Junk players don't want to play main-decked Chalice. This really is a case of players refusing to adapt. I'd argue that Aggro Loam is Bring held back by stubborn players who still insist on pushing an outdated midrange shell (Jund/Junk/Maverick).

Elves is really just unfortunate. I would think Painter would have a good match, but im not really sure. I've always thought this is a deck that is held back by the price and obscurity of Imperial Recruiter - that's a big investment for a card that only goes on two decks. I guess combo is not that strong right now period, which is probably the worst thing about the current meta (in my own personal opinion).

I'm of the opinion that the meta might be better without Terminus (though I ultimately don't support a ban, because I think the format is beyond sufficiently diverse to warrant any banning at all). Also it's hard to predict what would happen. If Miracles takes a hit and runs Verdict instead, that's great. But if Miracles adapts by going more aggressive (SFM package, Thing In The Ice, or whatever), I think the format might actually become less diverse and not more. In the mean time, Storm, S&T, or Reanimator are probably the best choices for a combo player (or maybe Dredge depending on your meta).


I fully agree, Julian. There are really only a few options to try to deal with Terminus, which is why the format is stuck. Some people enjoy this state, and others would like to move on to somewhere else. These are the options:
1) Play counterspells or Stifle or a bunch of other blue cards that can stop Terminus.
2) Don't play creatures (this pretty much applies to Burn, Enchantress, combo decks, Leylines -- if this is even a real deck -- and any deck running a bunch of planeswalkers).
3) Play 12-Post, which is banking on infinite Emrakul and casting triggers (Primeval Titan is basically an upgraded Explosive Vegetation).
4 Play cards that are creatures temporarily (manlands).
5) Assemble a Gaddock Teeg protected in 2-3 ways (such as strapped with a pro-white Sword and Sylvan Safekeeper keeping watch).
6) Go really deep with the hate cards and run Slaughter Games (naming Terminus) and/or Glooms to turn Terminus back into Wrath of God (4 CMC).

7) Main-decked a Chalice like Aggro Loam or Eldrazi Shops (or Merfolk).

Overall that leaves a lot of decks (and styles) that can hold their own in this meta.
The only thing you can't really play is a creature based that doesn't run blue, doesn't run Chalice, and isn't D&T.

That's a pretty narrow demand. Just as there is no rule saying stack based hard control needs to be viable, there is also no rule saying creature decks without Chalice, blue cards, or Port/Wasteland/Vial need to be playable.


I was trying to explain why some people think that Boseiju maindeck would be seen as a problem, and didn't say anything about whether or not Lands in general is interactive. Boseiju, however, is pretty clearly there specifically to limit interaction.
This is absolutely true - Bosieju is there to prevent unfavourable interactions. On the other hand, I could argue that resolving Loam (and PF) allows me to interact with Miracles in all sorts of ways (Waste/GQ locks Mo!ten Vortex, etc). There are some people who think Counter-Top prevents interaction. Anybody who feels this way had ought to feel that Bosieju promotes interaction.

And I don't think every singly game I play needs to be interactive,cas long as a non-interactive game is the exception not the rule. I used to play lots of other decks before I caught the Lands bug. Mostly Pox and Enchantress, but also High Tide, Affinity, Dredge, Elves, Burn, Affinity, and occasionally Cheeri0s. I have always found the majority of my matches to be interesting and interactive.



First, I made an error and the era you don't like should run from the banning of Mental Misstep to mid 2014, not 2013.

Even then, though, combo was doing fine - I can't find a single month where the DTBF didn't have a combo deck in it. I'm not saying combo didn't exist, only that it seemed to have a pretty small meta share. And I'm not saying it was like Modern - if it were I wouldn't have played! I'm saying Legacy is even less like Modern in every other era.



Your argument that Miracles should get a pass even if it's oppressive because it can be built as one particular way of building a control deck is fundamentally selfish and is the definition of special pleading.That's my argument. I've said many times that if Miracles is truely oppressive something's needs a ban (unless a new card or unban is projected to balance the format). On the other hand, if Miracles is borderline ban-worthy based only on its meta share, this is argument presented as a sort of tie-breaker.

I am Constant being misrepresented over this - please stop! What I am saying is that the existence of Miracles is upholding diversity of play-styles by keeping hard control relevant, and that this should be weighed against any argument that it stifling diversity by hogging too big a meta share. If you in the "Miracles is objectively oppressive camp", my argument hold no water.

However it is not established that Miracles is in fact objectively oppressive! This assumption (for which there is no clear consensus) is the flaw in your argument. DTB section looks pretty diverse to me.

Mostly my appeal to preserving hard control is a response to the argument that Miracles is holding down other play-styles. In my view, that is special pleading!



I'm sorry you were brutally forced to incorporate a superior game plan. If Factory were that important, I'm sure people could dedicate at least one sideboard slot to it.


@Crimhead - the Grove/P-Fire package grants huge win % vs the field. You could ban DRS today, and it would still be in lands.
This is true, but at the time it was a reaction to DRS, and that's a fact. Maybe in a couple years Bosieju will be a better card against more of the meta; that won't change the fact that it began as anti-miracles tech.

There is no need to run Factory in the side because it has the same role as PF. The difference is that if we are only concerned with being attacked, Factory is arguable better. When creatures have other abilities, that's when PF is needed

DRS is in many cases our worst issue G1, and needs to be dealt with quickly. Other creatures don't mess us up so much, so we could afford to just use Maze and Factory; or if we need to remove them, we could afford wait for EE. DRS forced the deck to adapt, and this is not a bad thing.


Maindecking Boseju is beyond what one should reasonably have to do.
AFAIK exactly one Lands deck has placed in a big event with a Boseiju main. I don't see why it's being blown up so much. Incidentally Lands is a tool-box deck with open "flex" slots. This is a deck that can run 61 cards! I think cramming a Boseiju in the main deck (thus opening an extra SB slot) has a much lower opportunity cost than non-Lands players realise.

[btm10]

There are some people who think Counter-Top prevents interaction. Anybody who feels this way had ought to feel that Bosieju promotes interaction

This just isn't true. Using Boseiju to get around Counterbalance simply substitutes one way of not interacting with another, and the best way to interact with Boseiju from the CounterTop player's perspective is to destroy it and use Counterbalance to stop you from Loaming it back.



That's my argument. I've said many times that if Miracles is truely oppressive something's needs a ban (unless a new card or unban is projected to balance the format). On the other hand, if Miracles is borderline ban-worthy based only on its meta share, this is argument presented as a sort of tie-breaker.

I am Constant being misrepresented over this - please stop! What I am saying is that the existence of Miracles is upholding diversity of play-styles by keeping hard control relevant, and that this should be weighed against any argument that it stifling diversity by hogging too big a meta share. If you in the "Miracles is objectively oppressive camp", this argument hold no water. However it is not established that Miracles is in fact objectively oppressive. DTB section looks pretty diverse to me!

Mostly my appeal to preserving hard control is a response to the argument that Miracles is holding down other play-styles. In my view, that is special pleading!


I think you're arguing this using a distinction between 'hard' control and other sorts of control that exist only in your mind. (Mentorless) Miracles does indeed have a hard time actually killing someone, but that's a bug from a competitive standpoint, not a feature. Blade control decks were highly reactive and stack-focused when they were relevant, and limiting Stoneforge Mystic to being a sort of one-card combo with Batterskull largely misses the role it typically served for a control deck when Blade was the premier way to play control. I think that Counterbalance is the primary offender here because, again, it makes for highly non-interactive games and forces anyone making the mistake of not playing Miracles to maindeck answers specifically to it.

As for why people continue to play non-Miracles decks, I'll let Patrick Chapin speculate (www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22024_Innovations_The_SCG_Invitational.html).

[Chatto]

As for why people continue to play non-Miracles decks, I'll let Patrick Chapin speculate (www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22024_Innovations_The_SCG_Invitational.html).

We all should turn to the Dark Side? Aka prove WotC how busted Miracles is?

[ESG]

7) Main-decked a Chalice like Aggro Loam or Eldrazi Shops (or Merfolk).

My post was outlining ways to stop or evade Terminus specifically. Chalice doesn't stop Terminus.

I agree that Chalice is good against Miracles and is usually part of the puzzle to beating Miracles. The other ingredients you need is a steady stream of uncounterable pressure (Marit Lage every turn, or 25(+) creatures forced through with quad Cavern of Souls) or relevant lock pieces. You need to be ahead of Miracles on the mana curve, so you need an element of acceleration, such as Sol lands, Mox Diamond, or Dark Ritual. This is why Eldrazi is good against Miracles and why any playable creature deck will require Cavern of Souls. The playability of creature decks is largely held together by tribe: Eldrazi and Humans. Merfolk and Goblins are reasonable against Miracles but struggle against many other decks. Elves is also playing Cavern of Souls now out of necessity, but the card is very awkward in the deck due to not being a fetchland for Deathrite to eat, or a Forest for Quirion Ranger to untap, or able to make G or B for Abrupt Decay and any other non-Elf sideboard cards the deck needs to play. It's basically a bad card in the deck, but the deck needs to run it to not lose to Counterbalance.

[Crimhead]

My post was outlining ways to stop or evade Terminus specifically. Chalice doesn't stop Terminus.

It stops cantrips and SDT.


Elves is also playing Cavern of Souls now out of necessity, but the card is very awkward in the deck due to not being a fetchland for Deathrite to eat, or a Forest for Quirion Ranger to untap, or able to make G or B for Abrupt Decay and any other non-Elf sideboard cards the deck needs to play. It's basically a bad card in the deck, but the deck needs to run it to not lose to Counterbalance.
I think Miracles has been around for a long time, and the relatively recent move to Cavern is motivated by Counter-Top in conjunction with the more recent rise of Chalice decks (Eldrazi Shops) in the meta.

And Cavern is a fantastic card!

[btm10]

We all should turn to the Dark Side? Aka prove WotC how busted Miracles is?

That's essentially what I've done. The deck is busted, and the only reason I (and I suspect others) who can build it haven't been playing it is that it's not very enjoyable; and I say this as someone who loves do-nothing control decks.

[Crimhead]

This just isn't true. Using Boseiju to get around Counterbalance simply substitutes one way of not interacting with another, and the best way to interact with Boseiju from the CounterTop player's perspective is to destroy it and use Counterbalance to stop you from Loaming it back.
Miracles can't really touch Boseiju. Instead they have to play around Ports, Wastelands , and GQ, as well as PF, because Loam can now resolve. Even if I'm making Tokens the Miracles player has to keep their answers coming as well as look for something to race against me.



I think you're arguing this using a distinction between 'hard' control and other sorts of control that exist only in your mind. (Mentorless) Miracles does indeed have a hard time actually killing someone, but that's a bug from a competitive standpoint, not a feature.It's a "competitive bug" the deck accepts in exchange for a stronger defense focused game and improved late-game inevitably. That's what hard control is. Blade decks control the board in part with cards that can easily be used on the attack should the need/opportunity arise. You might think that is not a relevant distinction, but I'm not the only person who would disagree.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Counterbalance ban would kill the only blue based control deck we have in the format, ban Terminus instead because Toxic Deluge, Bonfire of the Damned, and Supreme Verdict can all be decent replacements. The more deck options available to choose from the better. By banning CB you are completely eliminating a deck type while adding none in to the format, but banning Terminus will keep this deck, which many have invested much time in to learning, in the format.

[Lemnear]

Counterbalance ban would kill the only blue based control deck we have in the format, ban Terminus instead because Toxic Deluge, Bonfire of the Damned, and Supreme Verdict can all be decent replacements. The more deck options available to choose from the better. By banning CB you are completely eliminating a deck type while adding none in to the format, but banning Terminus will keep this deck, which many have invested much time in to learning, in the format.

This isn't the B&R thread to post ridiculous bullshit like this

[btm10]

Miracles can't really touch Boseiju. Instead they have to play around Ports, Wastelands , and GQ, as well as PF, because Loam can now resolve. Even if I'm making Tokens the Miracles player has to keep their answers coming as well as look for something to race against me.

A lot of Miracles players have switched their nonbasic land hate to Ruination or Fromthe Ashes, and I assure you that if more and more people show up with Boseijus, more and more Miracles players will resort to actual Land destruction.




It's a "competitive bug" the deck accepts in exchange for a stronger defense focused game and improved late-game inevitably. That's what hard control is. Blade decks control the board in part with cards that can easily be used on the attack should the need/opportunity arise. You might think that is not a relevant distinction, but I'm not the only person who would disagree.

How controlling a deck is built to be is certianly variable, but Jace + Entreat offers about as much inevitabilty as Jace + Batterskull, and whether you support those high-inevitability win conditions with Stoneforge Mystic or Counterbalance+Top (or both) should really only be informed by metagame considerations. When discussing whether one particular way of building UWx control has become oppressive, how much it decides to turtle up and how poorly it becomes an aggressive deck aren't legitimate axes on which to evaluate diversity, overall format health, or B/R decisions.

[Dice_Box]

This isn't the B&R thread to post ridiculous bullshit like this
I petty much can't tell the difference right now.

[Stevestamopz]

A lot of Miracles players have switched their nonbasic land hate to Ruination or Fromthe Ashes, and I assure you that if more and more people show up with Boseijus, more and more Miracles players will resort to actual Land destruction.


2 Wastelands in the main to turn off Boseju from the Omniderp decks. (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9544&f=LE)

[Chatto]

That's essentially what I've done. The deck is busted, and the only reason I (and I suspect others) who can build it haven't been playing it is that it's not very enjoyable; and I say this as someone who loves do-nothing control decks.

It could be the only way, which is probably sad. I for one can't build Miracles, and even if I could I would not build it (for the same reason you give). In this remark lies maybe the strenght and weakness of Legacy: in this format most people play what they have or what they like.


Counterbalance ban would kill the only blue based control deck we have in the format, ban Terminus instead because Toxic Deluge, Bonfire of the Damned, and Supreme Verdict can all be decent replacements. The more deck options available to choose from the better. By banning CB you are completely eliminating a deck type while adding none in to the format, but banning Terminus will keep this deck, which many have invested much time in to learning, in the format.

Ehm, this is simply not true. There will always be a Blue based control deck, only not that dominant. Besides, who cares if Miracles would lose CB? I wouldn't shed a tear over it.

Honestly, this thread is not at all dedicated to the subject 'how to kill Miracles'. Instead, we all are going in circles, bitching and whining about how busted Miracles is. In my opinion only a ban can kill the deck, but that should be a subject in the B/R-thread.

[Lemnear]

I petty much can't tell the difference right now.

I all seriousness, if stuff like "I learned to play with a card/deck, so it should never be banned for me to not have time wasted" are considered anything but trolling, this thread could be on mtgSalvation as well. I am totally done playing nice in the face of all the bullshitting going on on the page which derails every discussion/topic/thread. I thought this thread was about Philips Article /rant

[Dice_Box]

Lem, just learn when to walk away. Trust me. Life is much more pleasant once you do.

I would lock this thread, but because it's started by another mod I will leave that choice to him. But at this point I don't see how this thread has been useful past the opening posts posting about the article itself.

Edit:
Phillipp did decide to close the thread.