No European Legacy GPs in 2017

[Whitefaces]

WotC just released their next GP schedule for 2017, two US Legacy GPS and none in Europe. To say I'm gutted is an understatement.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/pro-tour-eldritch-moon-organized-play-announcement-bookkeeping-2016-08-02

[square_two]

That's a kick in the balls.

That being said, the GP extravaganza in Las Vegas should attract quite a crowd. There should be adequate day 1 coverage of Legacy (and it -is- Channelfireball which is a plus), but day 2 will depend on whether they want to focus on the next day Standard or not.

[Fox]

Bologna Italy Bologna Fiere May 5–7, 2017 Limited Legacy ???

Is this a tournament organizing agency or is that a typo...and this is maybe supposed to be Legacy?

[Noctalor]

What a bunch of fuckers.


Bologna Italy Bologna Fiere May 5–7, 2017 Limited Legacy ???

Is this a tournament organizing agency or is that a typo...and this is maybe supposed to be Legacy?

It is the organizer

[Soldier of Fortune]

Yeah, I feel bad for our friends in Europe and Asia.

Atleast they announced Eternal Weekend for Europe in April.

[barcode]

Of course, as a North American, glad to see more than one Legacy GP here. Sad that people outside the continent don't get their own.

However, SCG and CFB both put on a great event so I hope people will come and enjoy. The last SCG Legacy GP had over 4000 people playing.

[FNTwin]

Well, they're really trying to kill legacy I guess

[Julian23]

That being said, the GP extravaganza in Las Vegas should attract quite a crowd.

Especially since it's on Thursday/Friday... :cry:

[Richard Cheese]

GP Louisville Bourbon is going to be rough. I might actually have to take a real deck and get some practice in just to spare my liver for a few extra rounds.

Ultra mega Voltron GP in Vegas is going to be a complete shit show. Middle of the desert in June with 10000 sweaty nerds? Yeah I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole.

[Pilhas]

I am just mad right now....

Going to Vegas is expensive as fuck, compared to flying inside Europe.

Seems like it will be solely Eternal Weekend for me.

[Barook]

Is there a way to put WotC into the race of Worst Company of 2016? They have done plenty of shit to justify it by now.

[nedleeds]

GP Louisville Bourbon is going to be rough. I might actually have to take a real deck and get some practice in just to spare my liver for a few extra rounds.

Ultra mega Voltron GP in Vegas is going to be a complete shit show. Middle of the desert in June with 10000 sweaty nerds? Yeah I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole.

I just spent 5 days in Vegas and wasn't exposed to the outside air for more than 30 seconds there's no excuse to be a sweaty piece of shit. It's the A/C capitol of the universe.

[maharis]

I just spent 5 days in Vegas and wasn't exposed to the outside air for more than 30 seconds there's no excuse to be a sweaty piece of shit. It's the A/C capitol of the universe.

This

Also a Thursday-Friday Legacy GP means that it will be attended solely by adults who are using paid time off so the crowd should be mostly showered.

[iatee]

I am not sure I agree w/ the logic 'can go to an event Thurs+Friday = definitely has job'...

[barcode]

Middle of the desert in June with 10000 sweaty nerds? Yeah I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole.

Let me set this straight:

Last GP Vegas for Modern Masters 2 they had 7700 people playing in two concurrent GPs, plus staff and vendors and side event players. Probably over 9000 people in total.

The venue was cold. Not "oh, I guess I feel the A/C" but actually "I wish I had a sweater" cold. Outside temperature: 40C.

The venue was so cold that I walked outside and across the street into the hotel without the heat doing anything because I was still chilled from the event hall!

It's not going to be a problem at all. Don't worry about it, and bring a sweater. Shockingly, LVCC has held large conferences in the summer before and they know what they're doing.

[thecrav]

There should be adequate day 1 coverage of Legacy (and it -is- Channelfireball which is a plus), but day 2 will depend on whether they want to focus on the next day Standard or not.

IMO, their best bet would be to cover Day 2 of each event. Maybe we'll get two days of legacy!

[Technics]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/pro-tour-eldritch-moon-organized-play-announcement-bookkeeping-2016-08-02

[Blastoderm]

No Europe GP!

[Lemnear]

Legacy: Louisville, Kentucky >>> Rest of the World
MtG: USA >>> Rest of the World

...got it, WotC

[Nekrataal]

First release EMA ... squeeze some money out, then ditch us the next second ... I feel so abused and slutty. :mad:

[twndomn]

Instead of 3 GPs, 1 per continent, you'll only have 2 GPs in the US. Not only that, the first GP will happen just 1 month after the Legacy GP in Japan from the previous year.

I guess Eternal Master wasn't as popular as Wizard has projected. Doubt the Europeans would bother to plan a trip to Kentucky for Legacy.

[Lemnear]

Doubt the Europeans would bother to plan a trip to Kentucky for Legacy.

Do the north Americans? I mean its Kentucky and there is also GP vegas

[Richard Cheese]

Legacy: Louisville, Kentucky >>> Rest of the World
MtG: USA >>> Rest of the World

...got it, WotC

MAKE MAGIC GREAT AGAIN!

http://i.imgur.com/38DoKOJ.jpg

[Cartesian]

After 7 years of consecutive, well attended European Legacy GPs, this is certainly disappointing news.

[Barook]

MAKE MAGIC GREAT AGAIN!
http://i.imgur.com/38DoKOJ.jpg
It all makes sense now - BRING BACK WALLS!

[Fox]

So, Kentucky in January...how far south is this? South past risk of snow?

[square_two]

So, Kentucky in January...how far south is this? South past risk of snow?

Maybe a small chance. Even GP Memphis a year or so ago had some snows that probably led to lower attendance. People in the South are known for panicking about snow though. Least where I am, oftentimes cities don't have good snow planning. Louisville is around 290 miles south of Chicago if that puts things in perspective.

[from Cairo]

I haven't bothered with a GP in a while, but Legacy (thur/fri) Vegas the rest of the weekend (fri/sat/sun) sounds like a killer time.

[GreatWhale]

I am not sure I agree w/ the logic 'can go to an event Thurs+Friday = definitely has job'...

I went to Columbus without taking off any days of work, not recommended. Most people will be traveling to these events so Thursday Friday tournament is fine, without a job probably can't travel and play magic, with a job you have 10 months to request the days off.

No Europe or Asian Legacy GPs is lame, not that I would go but each one I think how great it would be, still 'planning' on going to Chiba this year.

[Doishy]

After having such a good time at my first ever GP at Prague this year I was all set to go to whichever euro Legacy event was set next year. Seems like it is gonna have to be EE only thanks to the disregard for a large section of their playerbase.... :(

[Stevestamopz]

IMO, their best bet would be to cover Day 2 of each event. Maybe we'll get two days of legacy!

2 days of all the cantripping action you don't want to see!

[Technics]

The GP Vegas weekend is the same weekend as EDC, so there will be 400,000+ ravers there. Hotel prices are already going up (and they typically double to triple closer to EDC).

Yeah, this is going to be a huge fucking pain!

[Technics]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30897-No-European-Legacy-GPs-in-2017

(Mods, please merge/lock this)

[Jain_Mor]

Well that fucking sucks. Cheers WotC.

Can anyone tweet at the organised play lady? I don't use twatter. She's currently super excited about the Team Pro Tour thing though so she probably won't reply.

Seems they treat everything like the legacy B&R list, they only give us something nice when they take something else away -.-

[Megadeus]

Well I'm considering Kentucky and Vegas is pretty far out that I could certainly begin planning. Sucks for Europe though. Can't say that I'm surprised by wizards continuing to make poor choices though.

[MorphBerlin]

That sucks so bad, could go to prague this year and chiba is really expensive...

Why are they doing this? Legaccy GPs in Europe were allways well attend because of the rarity right?

Also numbers of GPS in Europe:

Italy 3, UK/France/Spain/Netherlands 2, Denmark/Czech R./Poland 1 - and Germany 0? Does somebody know why? MTG cant be that small here?

[Philipp2293]

Afaik it's because of legal issues - money prices for what the authorities see as "gambling" are not allowed in Germany.

[Fry]

And here I was as a North Eastern American complaining about the fact that the Legacy GP's are at least 440 miles from me and no Modern GP East of the Mississippi River...

I feel for you guys in Europe and Asia... Legacy has always been huge in that part of the world, it's stupid that there isn't anything WotC supported for Legacy out there.

[Lemnear]

That sucks so bad, could go to prague this year and chiba is really expensive...

Why are they doing this? Legaccy GPs in Europe were allways well attend because of the rarity right?

Also numbers of GPS in Europe:

Italy 3, UK/France/Spain/Netherlands 2, Denmark/Czech R./Poland 1 - and Germany 0? Does somebody know why? MTG cant be that small here?

As Philip said, its a legal issue. Once you opt to pay out in cash, you need a casino licence and have to deny access to everyone under 18 years. Its simply unnecessary conditions for WotC to fullfil, so they go to France instead

[phonics]

Is there a way to put WotC into the race of Worst Company of 2016? They have done plenty of shit to justify it by now.

If they didn't have the rights to some of the best IPs in the game they would have gone bankrupt years ago. Usually when a company does something silly its usually to make more money and understandable, but I honestly cant seem to understand how WOTC's actions would fit in this category. It is almost like they are actively trying to make their product as unappealing as they can. Under competent management MTG would be an absolute juggernaut in gaming, just look at how far hearthstone has gone despite being an inferior game, but unfortunately we have to settle for the mediocrity they love to deliver time and time again.

[Lemnear]

If they didn't have the rights to some of the best IPs in the game they would have gone bankrupt years ago. Usually when a company does something silly its usually to make more money and understandable, but I honestly cant seem to understand how WOTC's actions would fit in this category. It is almost like they are actively trying to make their product as unappealing as they can. Under competent management MTG would be an absolute juggernaut in gaming, just look at how far hearthstone has gone despite being an inferior game, but unfortunately we have to settle for the mediocrity they love to deliver time and time again.

Most likely because Hasbro isn't interrested in looking at WotC as long as they produce money, so there is no wonder WotC became too inbreed (*cough* LaPille *cough*) in terms of design & marketing and the game totally dependent on StarCityGames & ChannelFireball to be promoted and organized. The game would be dead without SCG/CF in north america, so the companies have developed a very unhealthy relationship considering SCG/CF have their grip on the secondary market and are the default tournament organizer, with an ear on the door of future MtG releases

I am no way surprised if SCG & CF are involved in the tournament schedule planning process. I mean even the French events are organized by CF the upcoming season.

[Namida]

I wonder what effect this will have on registration for GP Chiba this year...

[Claw_Outcast]

This is kind of interesting. https://twitter.com/HeleneBergeot/status/760709606217744385

Basically they removed Legacy GP in order to give slots to "more accessible formats" for the benefit of players who "started recently". If this is not the evidence of WotC trying to kill or at least marginalise Legacy, then I don't know what is.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Eternal Weekend it's a one more thing: it can't substitute a Grand Prix.

[jmlima]

This is kind of interesting. https://twitter.com/HeleneBergeot/status/760709606217744385

Basically they removed Legacy GP in order to give slots to "more accessible formats" for the benefit of players who "started recently". If this is not the evidence of WotC trying to kill or at least marginalise Legacy, then I don't know what is.

C'mon guys, lets at least be serious. How on earth is WotC supposed to support a format based around a set of cards they cannot reprint?

The only serious support legacy will ever see (and even then...) its on digital platforms that are not shackled by the reserve list.

Thing about it like this, you wont attract new players with packs full of duals quite simply because you cannot print said cards.

Thank the collectors and speculators.

[SHABOOGS]

Was planning to go to next year's Legacy GP here in Asia but it turns out GP Chiba is the last Legacy GP in Asia. And we also don't get an Eternal Weekend here in Asia. I guess it's just up to the local community to keep Legacy alive in their part of the world since WotC is moving away from eternal formats.

[Di]

This is kind of interesting. https://twitter.com/HeleneBergeot/status/760709606217744385

Basically they removed Legacy GP in order to give slots to "more accessible formats" for the benefit of players who "started recently". If this is not the evidence of WotC trying to kill or at least marginalise Legacy, then I don't know what is.

In all fairness considering a majority of hardcore Legacy players don't actively play other formats (see: buy lots of Standard cards/packs) or pursue the Pro Tour, having a Grand Prix for the format is harder to justify as it doesn't do a great job of promoting their primary business. Yeah it really sucks having the format's support being widdled away between the loss of Grand Prix and SCG, but there are always other large, strong events to take place. Eternal Weekend is great, as is Bazaar of Moxen and other big events. Support will always find a way, even if it goes back to the pre-SCG days when the large events were held by smaller organizers. Hell I remember when we did The Source five-year anniversary tournament back in 2008. We hit something like ~137 people, and at the time it was the largest Legacy event ever not held by WotC. Stores and smaller communities can easily achieve stuff like that and hit 200+. We lose the enormity and atmosphere and accolades of a tournament with 1000+ people, but it's better than nothing and the quality of the competition will always be higher. Personally, I find it far more rewarding playing in a ~250 person event where 80% are fantastic players as opposed to a 1,500 person event where I want to punch my hand through a window if I lose any of the first three rounds if I don't have byes. Local communities and stores and smaller regional areas will always keep up the support and hold their end for the players.

But people let's be real here. Outside of that and the larger prize pool (of which only a very small percentage on here will realistically taste in the first place), the Grand Prix circuit offers very little unless you are a player actively trying to qualify for the Pro Tour. So many Legacy players aren't losing that much if what they are really yearning for is just a huge-ass tournament. I don't mean to be too cynical, but that's simply the reality. I feel awful for the Legacy players of Europe who want these and really look forward to them. The Europeans are fantastic Legacy players and should be granted these events. But the agenda of WotC and the purpose of the Grand Prix circuit doesn't really mesh with Legacy, and most Legacy players don't mesh with that agenda anyway, so I think the loss is overstated. If all you want is the prospect of support for these mega events while realizing many of you likely aren't going to do THAT well in them, then yeah I feel for you. But if you are upset about the loss of these events because they are your few shots for doing well in the format and make a name for yourself, then there are plenty other strong tournaments to do that from (don't claim it's about the money either, because you essentially need to top8 to break even after expenses most of the time). And if you're in the third camp (like myself) that competitively plays other formats, then you weep for the slow miserable decline of this format while also playing others as you try to get back on to the Pro Tour and just move on and play other events at the Grand Prix level anyway.

[iatee]

Yeah, GPs have always been awkward fits for legacy. Not a format that pros want to test extensively, so the 'best magic players' aren't really taking it seriously + hardcore legacy players generally aren't dying to get on the Pro Tour anyway. I think GPs are important as a symbol that Wizards isn't giving up on the format and that it's safe to buy in. Eternal Masters *looked* like it that was a symbol too, but now there are kinda mixed messages.

I think that the format is in need of a well-run competitive circuit and a real replacement for SCG Opens is more crucial for the long-term health of legacy than any number of GPs would be. I think the player base is there both in America and Europe and it's just about these companies finding a way to make it financially viable.

[Sidneyious]

Legacy will meet the same fate as vintage, insane buyins just to play an event maybe once a year.

Hell our casual night is as close to either format as we will get and it's maybe 1 a month thing.

Even their standard night is scarce and they usually end up doing modern or edh instead.

All one needs for legacy is dual lands and a few other 100$ cards and you got a well built deck.

Vintage you need 15k before you can think of what else you need.

People want to play these formats but can't, hell even draft is dropping in our area.

New set releases are usually bigger because it's still cheaper than draft.

Soon it will be modern as the only "eternal" format and then it too will meet the fate of t1/1.5

[ESG]

People want to play these formats but can't, hell even draft is dropping in our area.

Out of curiosity, where is your area? There's no location listed on your user profile. Are you in Europe?

[Chatto]

All one needs for legacy is dual lands and a few other 100$ cards and you got a well built deck.

To be really competative means more than just a few hundred dollars/ euro's. Besides, it's still a lot of money for cardboard :smile:

Shame, the last couple of years my friends and I went to the GP for a good time. There will be another big event in Europe we will attend to. In all seriousness, I saw this one a long time coming. We as a community don't generate the commercial succes or the big money.

[Cartesian]

This is clearly a sign of Wizards deciding to drop all future GP-scale support for Legacy.
The reason they start with Europe now is to avoid one large community backlash.

There will be no Legacy GPs in 2018 in Europe, US, Asia, or anywhere else. We should figure out what this means.

On a short scale, it could mean higher attendance number at privately run Legacy events.
In the long run, I am not sure. Uncertain times ahead.

I am saddened that Wizards have so little regard for the deepest and most skill intensive of formats.

[Sibelius]

Is there any possibility of getting wotc to change their decision? They do often enough. With a bit of organisation we might be able to get the GP back.
Lets not be defeatist yet.

Sib

[alastair]

it could mean higher attendance number at privately run Legacy events.

There is a serious lack of confidence in the independent series with people I speak/travel to events with. TOP, MKM, and BoM have all had their issues and to cite 'political instability' in the UK as justification for cancelling London, doesn't bode well for the 'ultra stable French nation' at this time when we should be booking Eternal Weekend (but for which I know a few have flatly refused to, even with the quality of crapes and croissants at French BoM events).

Ovino and Prague Eternal seam a surer bet.

I'm just really disappointed WoTc have taken this view, not surprised, just disappointed. One Legacy GP in the US, Europe and Asia was enough to sustain a worldwide Legacy community. But heh, too much fucking effort.

[Dice_Box]

I think the question here is the wrong one. It should not be "Can we get them to change their point of view?" and more along the lines of "Do we want them to change their point of view?"

What is the point of a Legacy GP? Really? Do you want to go to the Pro Tour? Me either. Do you want to play in a room full of members of this community, hang out, drink beer and have a good time. There is the BOM, Eternal Weekend, SCG Open and other such joys. I would rather win the Eternal Weekend and get an oversized Loam/FOW/Tigra than a PT invite I could give two fucks about. I would rather hold over my head and hang on my wall a card that said 20xx Legacy Champ. I know it's something that would not happen because I am not that good at this game, but that's not the point.

This does cause issues worth covering, real issues, as this is a statement of intent more so than a simple change of events. That part and the future it holds bothers me. But if Wizards came out tomorrow and said "We are going to do 5 Eternal Weekends a year in 5 different locations" I would take that over any GP you care to name.

[Barook]

But if Wizards came out tomorrow and said "We are going to do 5 Eternal Weekends a year in 5 different locations" I would take that over any GP you care to name.
This - except they don't even bother to do that.

Given high turnout of Legacy events in Europe, I wonder why not more people try to host bigger Legacy events. Are the costs/logistic requirements too high to be worth the risk?

[Dice_Box]

This - except they don't even bother to do that.

Given high turnout of Legacy events in Europe, I wonder why not more people try to host bigger Legacy events. Are the costs/logistic requirements too high to be worth the risk?
I think the slack will be picked up. Vintage has big events totally outside of the normal sphere of influence like the Team Serious Open, NYSE and Eternal Extravaganza. Legacy, here in Aus, is a grassroots thing. There is ZERO reason to play Legacy other than the fun of it. There are no large events, nothing to drive to, nothing big to see here but yet the scene grows. I have faith well will do just fine. Wizards helping us or not.

[Rocco111]

It seems so far that Europe has a great Legacy Community. The issue Europe faced this year was that they were (surprisingly) too many events.
Sadly the last 'privately managed' events did not meet the expected target... from the organizers as the attendance to such events were disappointing, and from the players as the communication and organization of most of them were not meeting their expectations. I am referring here to the MKM, TOP, and other 'new' series.
BoM, Ovino and Prague Eternal are kind of staples for the community so attendance there is usually fairly good.

Is this the reason behind WotC's decision? Maybe.
Is Legacy a dying format? Maybe too... Although I personally do not think so. It is just poisonned by the cash a player needs to pull to enter the format.
Should the community show more interest in all the different circuits that sprouted in Europe to keep them alive and motivate their organizers to improve and continue to organize them? Yes, definitely.

M2c

[Maxe]

guys do u read there is an eternal weekend at march in paris.... this sounds to me like a leagcy event

[ESG]

It seems so far that Europe has a great Legacy Community. The issue Europe faced this year was that they were (surprisingly) too many events.
Sadly the last 'privately managed' events did not meet the expected target... from the organizers as the attendance to such events were disappointing, and from the players as the communication and organization of most of them were not meeting their expectations. I am referring here to the MKM, TOP, and other 'new' series.
BoM, Ovino and Prague Eternal are kind of staples for the community so attendance there is usually fairly good.

Is this the reason behind WotC's decision? Maybe.
Is Legacy a dying format? Maybe too... Although I personally do not think so. It is just poisonned by the cash a player needs to pull to enter the format.
Should the community show more interest in all the different circuits that sprouted in Europe to keep them alive and motivate their organizers to improve and continue to organize them? Yes, definitely.

M2c

If Europe had too many events last year, as you say, then doesn't that help explain WOTC's decision? I don't know what's going on with Europe. I don't live there. But everything I hear suggests that Europe's Legacy scene is large.

[MGB]

Question: how expensive is it to fly to Las Vegas and get a hotel room there?

I've never been, but I imagine it's kind of on the high side, dollar-wise, especially in the middle of June. Just what is a rough ballpark estimate on that cost for people who *have* traveled there for GPs?

[iatee]

Vegas is actually much cheaper than you're imagining. There are a ton of hotels in the city, if you look online and are crafty about it you can find some special offers, under $100 a night. Flights are usually fairly reasonable.

[Sidneyious]

Out of curiosity, where is your area? There's no location listed on your user profile. Are you in Europe?
The beef state, mtg is not so big here but still bigger than most.

For me it's about 200$ - 400$ for a flight to vegas, still out of my reach as nothing happens in the months I don't work(seasonal labor).

The months I work it's go time with almost no break, I need a new job but I hate having to work 5 years to get a week off every year to do an event like this.

[igooazoo]

guys do u read there is an eternal weekend at march in paris.... this sounds to me like a leagcy event

It is not a GP.

[Hopo]

, I need a new job but I hate having to work 5 years to get a week off every year to do an event like this.
That system of yours sucks so much if you are a worker. In comparison, here in Finland we get the minimum of 5 weeks per year paid time off after working one full year. You also get paid pretty much double pay during your vacation.

[H]

That system of yours sucks so much if you are a worker. In comparison, here in Finland we get the minimum of 5 weeks per year paid time off after working one full year. You also get paid pretty much double pay during your vacation.

We here in the US cannot fathom this sort of thing. If you work in some industries (like health care, for example) you can get a few weeks (3 or so, iirc) but 5 is pretty much unheard of. I can get 2 weeks at 3 years in, but that's all.

[Sidneyious]

That system of yours sucks so much if you are a worker. In comparison, here in Finland we get the minimum of 5 weeks per year paid time off after working one full year. You also get paid pretty much double pay during your vacation.
Yep

Joys of my seasonal labor is I get 4 months vacation that's partly paid.

The boss files a tax form so we get unemployment, yet we move snow so we get the maximum allowed per week in a check. Then cash when we do move snow, problem is, the extra 500$ a month is needed.

So I do stuff on the side but still it barely helps pay for the hobby after all is said and done.

I refuse to play standard, why pay x amount for cards when they are useless in a few months.

Draft is boring and I get nothing worthwhile out of it for future decks.

Modern is a joke and just as expensive as most legacy decks I would want to play.

As it is my burn and affinity decks are dropping in price because popularity and lack of new cards to make it a competitive deck in a format like legacy.

I should just sell it all off and forget this game exists.

[Manipulato]

Wow you guys kill me! And Germans are known for "hard working" in the world. I have 7 weeks + 2 days vacation each year without counting the overtime which are about 3 weeks at the end of the year :eek:
I would die having just 1-2 weeks holiday each year:cry:

[Lemnear]

Wow you guys kill me! And Germans are known for "hard working" in the world. I have 7 weeks + 2 days vacation each year without counting the overtime which are about 3 weeks at the end of the year :eek:
I would die having just 1-2 weeks holiday each year:cry:

7 Weeks? What da hell! Dare I ask which business trait you are working in, because the usual is 24 days of vacation (BUrlG).

[Stan]

Belgian civil service here, job on the road. 26 days standard vacation, plus six half days per two month-block (if you don't take them in that timeframe, they're gone). Plus four days per year to take care of sick family members, and unlimited overtime which accumulates (counted at 150% for night- and Saturday shifts, and 200% for Sundays and holidays). I took five weeks of vacation/overtime during this Summer, took the second half of December already and I still have between 15 and 20 days left.

I don't get it. You guys revolted and took down the British Empire over a stupid boat filled with tea, but you'll accept work with no real vacation lying down without a fight.

[Julian23]

There's been some heavy political indoctrination in the US post WWII, especially during the Cold War era. Like, they had some really chill presidents that would do a lot for workers' rights (New Deal, anyone?). But in the 2nd half of the 20th century and even up until now, anything related to workers' rights and improving the life of the general population has this whole scary "socialist" stigma to it. And everyone knows that that's bad, right? :rolleyes: In fact, socialism has been pretty terrible and my country is still financially suffering from the effects it had on East Germany. But 99% of times you hear an American politican (even Sanders, unfortunately) talk about socialism, you can just shake your head at the blatant ignorance of both political science and history. Most of the time, what they actually mean is Social Democracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy), which is one of the leading political influences in European politics, responsible for a lot of those perks we're mentioning here — and has also been completly absent from the American political spectrum post WWII. Obama has made some effort and Sanders actually sounded like a regular social democrat. So there's definitely some progress.

I also hear workers' unions are considered the devil over there, which I guess is another issue. Apparently because their leaders often used to be involved with illegal stuff.

[Mr Miagi]

capitalism slavery and they are eating it with full spoon, gotta make that 1% even richer and it's everybodies dream to be that 1% eventhough they don't realizie there is still 99% diferential and they are in it .. nice brainwash ;) but we're derailing the thread again (interesting topic though).

On topic: I'm sure we all agree pro-tour invitations for Legacy GPs are pretty nonesential and not of concern for majority of legacy players, so in theory you could make argument that we do not need Legacy GPs as they are almost no requeired, or not in lieu of other current GPs/pro hunt settings. And to some degree it's true, legacy GPs do stick out a bit. But, Wizards removing Legacy GP and now completly removing two continents from the map is a statement. Statment that Wizards are publicly, yet as always very indirectively, saying we are now even more so than before dropping legacy support and this is to us a format of no interest. You have to realize that by doing so, legacy is falling from the visible spectrum of the Magic players and we will have less new players, we Will have to invest more time and energy to keep legacy alive and kicking (or in most cases not for it to die out). With this move we as legacy playerbase and potential MTG consumers are also loosing our power to influcence Wizards, as they are effectively saying we don't care for you.

All in all I think this is very concerning move from Wizards. With the abundance of GPs it would be really easy for them to allow the 3 legacy GPs, one per each contient. It would be great"promotion" to showcase some of the MTG history if nothin else. what we ahve now is full on retardedness. US getting two legacy GPs while the whole rest of the world gets none is beyond my comprehension.

Can we get a bit more vocal as a community and relay out message to Wizards, like really mass emails/twitts to Wizards? It has been done int he past and they tend to listen to feedback in the turnout is big enough. Hope you realize future of the legacy is at stake here.

[jmlima]

...

I also hear workers' unions are considered the devil over there, which I guess is another issue. Apparently because their leaders often used to be involved with illegal stuff.

OT (or is it?...)

Don't need to go that far. Worker's unions are also the spawn of devil here in europe. Well, technically here in europe is only apparently until 2019, then we will drift away into the atlantic and become the new atlantis. After 'booting out' all those pesky europeans from the green and pleasant land. Then we will kick out everyone else, so that the island floats better, moving on bojo gas.

[Stan]

This is my last OT post on this thread, promised, but when people mention that trade unions mean nothing in America because the membership is so low, it should be noted that America is more heavily unionized than France, and in France you can't get any law passed if the unions disagree. It's not a matter of membership, it's a matter of organisation, and of support of the non-member colleagues.

https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=UN_DEN

[Manipulato]

7 Weeks? What da hell! Dare I ask which business trait you are working in, because the usual is 24 days of vacation (BUrlG).

I'm working at BayWa building materials, it's a wholesaler. But yes 30 days is the maximum normally.

[alastair]

Is the 2017 venue the same as past Vegas events, and does anyone have Hotel recommendations near to the venue.

[jrsthethird]

I don't get it. You guys revolted and took down the British Empire over a stupid boat filled with tea, but you'll accept work with no real vacation lying down without a fight.

240 years without any need to fight makes you really fucking lazy.

[jrsthethird]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160806/451b03e9235bcb0acdef28f1f2c702ee.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sidneyious]

Last OT post

Yes unions treat their workers well but if you want something good luck.

My brother worked for one for years and they gave him the shaft when he got injured.

The railroad is a better union but not by much.

Jrsthethird that's hilarious.

http://www.cardtitan.com/eternal_weekend

If it's so large why does wotc not see it needs the RL abolished?

[LOLWut]

Democratic socialism, with its faults, can work with the right demographics. Certain nations in Europe should mightily struggle in the future with the millions of hastily convened newcomers.

Agreed that Americans don't get enough time off.

[Lord Seth]

I'm reminded of this quote:

"You can't treat the working man this way. One day we'll form a union and get the fair and equittable treatment we deserve. Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless and the Japanese will eat us alive!"

[Dice_Box]

What a thread.

On topic.

You guys know this means they have basically announced the RL is here to stay. "Because of price, new players are not able to play Legacy. Therefore we are cutting support." Add to that a future "Post Modern" format and it's looking like Modern is going to replace Legacy in Wizards eyes.

[phonics]

What a thread.

On topic.

You guys know this means they have basically announced the RL is here to stay. "Because of price, new players are not able to play Legacy. Therefore we are cutting support." Add to that a future "Post Modern" format and it's looking like Modern is going to replace Legacy in Wizards eyes.

WOTC going to make Modern the new legacy minus fun cards, but with the same insane prices.

[Megadeus]

And legacy will become vintage with prices, and vintage will become vintage yacht collecting with prices. Hooray cardboard

[Chatto]

I say it once, I say it twice: we as a community don't generate the income WotC wants. Keep your cards, get some more, and know you'll be seeing the same faces at every tournament for the next couple of years.

[Julian23]

"Because of price, new players are not able to play Legacy. Therefore we are cutting support."

It's really sad but also quite fascinating: WotC kinda abandoned the IP of those cards to some alien planet civilization. They're like:


"We wish we could reprint, but we can't."
- "Who can then?"
"Nobody, it's crazy!"

We need Will Smith, Sigourney Weaver and some other people expeirenced in alient planet combat to fight for Legacy!

[Lord Seth]

What a thread.

On topic.

You guys know this means they have basically announced the RL is here to stay. "Because of price, new players are not able to play Legacy. Therefore we are cutting support." Add to that a future "Post Modern" format and it's looking like Modern is going to replace Legacy in Wizards eyes.
When/where did they announce a "Post Modern" format? Or is this nothing more than speculation?

[Dice_Box]

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/148004395518/can-you-envision-creating-a-new-nonrotating

Nothing official, more a statement of future intent. It sounds likely to me though. Try some time in the future "Post Modern" (Silver Dot onwards perhaps) and see how it fits. Honestly, it stinks. Issues with Modern are fixable. If Modern dies, that's totally on them.

[Ace/Homebrew]

"You can't treat the working man this way. One day we'll form a union and get the fair and equittable treatment we deserve. Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless and the Japanese will eat us alive!"
The Japanese? Those sandal-wearing goldfish tenders? Ha ha! Bosh! Flimshaw!
Simpsons did it (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0701151/?ref_=ttqt_qt_tt)


So topics about abolishing the RL can stop because it'll never happen? :confused:

[PirateKing]

Why would Modern become the new Legacy?
If anything Vintage will stay Vintage, Legacy will stay Legacy and Modern will become the new Extended. They've never had a good product to sell the just rotated Standard players. I imagine they'll keep trying, but nothing is poised to take down Legacy any time soon.

[Lemnear]

Why would Modern become the new Legacy?
If anything Vintage will stay Vintage, Legacy will stay Legacy and Modern will become the new Extended. They've never had a good product to sell the just rotated Standard players. I imagine they'll keep trying, but nothing is poised to take down Legacy any time soon.

You miss that the poplularity of Legacy is still tied to SCG, ChannelFireball and other big tournament organizers. If they drop Legacy, the popularity of the format and the card prices crumble, but as long as these companies earn money with Legacy, they will support the format for their own sake.

From WotC perspective, a format sitting between Standard and Modern might be interresting at some point if the cardpool for Modern gets bigger and the format stagnant and unappealing just like old Extended. I can totally see that MaRo would love to see a "NewWorldOrder" format with 90% creatures as non-land cards in everyones deck, but for the moment, Commander is their pet format

[PirateKing]

You miss that the poplularity of Legacy is still tied to SCG, ChannelFireball and other big tournament organizers. If they drop Legacy, the popularity of the format and the card prices crumble, but as long as these companies earn money with Legacy, they will support the format for their own sake.

I tie the popularity of Legacy to the format itself. Same as Vintage. The core of Legacy players I encounter love the format and all the things that make it unique. I've known lots of the begrudgingly sleeve up a Modern deck to go to because that's the format of the big local tournament, but it's not the format they want to play. Never have I seen it the other way around. If all the big names drop Legacy, they'll drop it into the same boat as Vintage. Their support is player driven, not company driven. We're pretty much already at that point anyway, what with the changes to SCG and now this Open schedule.

It's in Wizard's interest to at least have exist a format beyond standard that they can market, regardless of the actual goodness of that format. Pushing kiddos to buy packs that have a serious expiration date on them won't last, which is why they keep putting something in that spot. But it's a genuinely difficult thing to pull off, which is why I don't think Modern will last forever in it's current form. But if Modern dies tomorrow I don't think Legacy will feel much of anything.

[jamesh]

I tie the popularity of Legacy to the format itself. Same as Vintage. The core of Legacy players I encounter love the format and all the things that make it unique. I've known lots of the begrudgingly sleeve up a Modern deck to go to because that's the format of the big local tournament, but it's not the format they want to play.

100% yes

This is the great strength for legacy (and vintage) and why these formats will last forever. Playing legacy is a much more interesting and complex part of mtg. People who like that style of play just will not be satisfied with modern. Modern exists only as long as wizards want it to and with the drop offs in standard they won't be keeping these two formats as they are for too much longer. I always thought modern was a big mistake. The card pool is way too big already. Either they will have to do lots more reprinting for modern (which they don't want to do) or they will create a new modern. They are basically trying to find an extended format that players actually want to play. So far they haven't found it.

[jrsthethird]

Here's the thing: they create a new "non-rotating" format like Modern, but when that becomes stale, what happens? Pull the support for Modern, it becomes Legacy with worse decks and a cheaper buy-in, and create a new "non-rotating" format 5-7 years later.

Essentially you end up pushing the starting point for the "competitive standard-plus format" several years forward in time. Y'know, a rotation.

[Sidneyious]

Even now some modern decks are as much as some legacy decks.

Just wait till t1/1.5 are dead and modern is new legacy and soon thoes decks will cost as much as a legacy deck that will soon cost as much as a vintage deck.

If you got the cards when it came out you were set and the future buyins gave you the value.

But more and more are going to legacy than modern.

[MorphBerlin]

Even now some modern decks are as much as some legacy decks.

Just wait till t1/1.5 are dead and modern is new legacy and soon thoes decks will cost as much as a legacy deck that will soon cost as much as a vintage deck.

If you got the cards when it came out you were set and the future buyins gave you the value.

But more and more are going to legacy than modern.

I don't believe modern will become the legacy when the create a new-modern format which is very likely and actually inevitable for their goal with modern. You can already see that the entry barrier for Modern is getting higher and higher, which results in fewer Standard cards watering down. So they have to make a new cut to get rid of some old staples at some point. The interesting question will be how players will react to this. WHen it happens the first time players will know it at least could happen again. Essentially you have a new extended format then with a intransparant rotating structre.

[phonics]

100% yes

This is the great strength for legacy (and vintage) and why these formats will last forever. Playing legacy is a much more interesting and complex part of mtg. People who like that style of play just will not be satisfied with modern. Modern exists only as long as wizards want it to and with the drop offs in standard they won't be keeping these two formats as they are for too much longer. I always thought modern was a big mistake. The card pool is way too big already. Either they will have to do lots more reprinting for modern (which they don't want to do) or they will create a new modern. They are basically trying to find an extended format that players actually want to play. So far they haven't found it.

While legacy is popular, WOTC has pretty much decided that they don't want what it has to offer. It goes beyond the reserve list, the style of game that they want to promote is seen in the sets they release now, and how they banned for modern. True eternal formats are a completely different beast in comparison. Clearly from the attendance that the legacy GPs brought the format is popular, but in spite of this WOTC put the bare minimum into recognizing the format. At the point it could be argued that by virtue of the VSL, they are promoting Vintage more than legacy, and even then they have pretty much nothing to do with it aside from letting them use the magic channel to stream it, and the entire thing wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Randy Buhler putting it together. It astonishes me how little they care about promoting their product, they act like some small indie game developer with limited resources instead of one that owns some of the most iconic IPs in the industry.

[Cartesian]

Legacy is inaccessible, they are right on that. We play it anyway, simply because it is a better game, much better than anything else they have to offer. I have tried Modern, really tried, and it sucks, there is nothing else I can say about it. Draft is not my thing, and I don't even want to say anything about Standard.

Based on what I have heard they think that Legacy is the same game as Standard or Modern, only less accessible, but that is a mistake. In a world of Hearthstone and what not, Legacy and Vintage offer strategic depth and challenging gameplay unmatched by anything else related to Mtg, and as far as I know unlike any other game out there. This is their true gold, they are sitting on it and don't even know it.

[Lemnear]

Step 1: Make Legacy inaccessible via unreasonable prices caused by lack of reprints
Step 2: Make inaccessibility to cards a reason to not support Legacy on a big stage
Step 3: Promote Modern and its lower prices to enter the format
Step 4: Make Modern inaccessible via unreasonable prices caused by lack of reprints, shitty format management and ending up with boring decks
Step 5: Make "we want to reward good ... innovative deck building" your guideline for the Pro Tour and kick Modern and its "non-innovative deck building"
Step 6: Promote Standard and make people buy the newest products
Step 7: Profit

[Stevestamopz]

step 1: Make legacy inaccessible via unreasonable prices caused by lack of reprints
step 2: Make inaccessibility to cards a reason to not support legacy on a big stage
step 3: Promote modern and its lower prices to enter the format
step 4: Make modern inaccessible via unreasonable prices caused by lack of reprints, shitty format management and ending up with boring decks
step 5: Make "we want to reward good ... Innovative deck building" your guideline for the pro tour and kick modern and its "non-innovative deck building"
step 6: Promote standard and make people buy the newest products
step 6.5: Increase rotation schedules and say it's to "keep standard fresh"
step 7: Profit

ftfy

[jmlima]

... In a world of Hearthstone and what not, Legacy and Vintage offer strategic depth and challenging gameplay unmatched by anything else related to Mtg, and as far as I know unlike any other game out there. This is their true gold, they are sitting on it and don't even know it.

I do believe you are glossing over what makes Heartstone so popular that cannot and will not, be ever matched by Legacy.

Times have changed, as an example, you now have 2sec to load a webpage, otherwise people will move away. Attention spans are shorter, there is an increasing competition for entertainment delivery and entertainment prices are motoring down. Heartstone is mass entertainment at its best. Its cheap, easy to understand, easy to get involved, you get rewarded for doing more and more in it and so on. As of today this is the future of entertainment.

Legacy, on the other hand, is extortionately expensive, very complex to get involved, and heavily dependent on an ever shrinking component base. You do not learn to play the best Legacy deck in a couple of hours. You do not get free cards for your decks by playing Legacy (you could argue you get packs in MTGO, but these are not directly translatable, try to start D&T and try to earn your Ports and Wastelands, oh wait, you are not even playing D&T without these...). And your entry cost to be seriously competitive is prohibitive to the vast majority. Not point complaining about entitlement, its nothing of the kind, its a simple decision, do I play a card game that cost $0 to start, or do I start in Legacy and shell out $500? Do I start a game I can easily understand in a couple of hours whilst being rewarded immediately for playing it, or do I try to figure how my burn deck will be able to beat Show and Tell on a regular basis without getting anything for my troubles?

Its irrelevant if we agree or not, fact is, you may not like the direction MTG is taking, but WotC are (commercially) making all the right choices. I work part-time in the video-game industry as a designer. We used to do highly complex con-sims, some of military grade. In the past decade, the sales for this type of games went from thousands to hundreds, to dozens, to a point where if they are not part of a military programme, they are not worth developing anymore. That is what is happening to all types of complex (and expensive) entertaining. Its a new age.

[jamesh]

Oh no question about the intelligence level required for legacy. It's higher. Basically you can boil it down to:

Most people are too dumb for mtg.
Most mtg players are too dumb for legacy.

Wizards want mtg to appeal to the maximum number of people so obv it will be dumbed down in future (even more than it has been in the last couple of years).

[Cartesian]

I do believe you are glossing over what makes Heartstone so popular that cannot and will not, be ever matched by Legacy.

Times have changed, as an example, you now have 2sec to load a webpage, otherwise people will move away. Attention spans are shorter, there is an increasing competition for entertainment delivery and entertainment prices are motoring down. Heartstone is mass entertainment at its best. Its cheap, easy to understand, easy to get involved, you get rewarded for doing more and more in it and so on. As of today this is the future of entertainment.

Legacy, on the other hand, is extortionately expensive, very complex to get involved, and heavily dependent on an ever shrinking component base. You do not learn to play the best Legacy deck in a couple of hours. You do not get free cards for your decks by playing Legacy (you could argue you get packs in MTGO, but these are not directly translatable, try to start D&T and try to earn your Ports and Wastelands, oh wait, you are not even playing D&T without these...). And your entry cost to be seriously competitive is prohibitive to the vast majority. Not point complaining about entitlement, its nothing of the kind, its a simple decision, do I play a card game that cost $0 to start, or do I start in Legacy and shell out $500? Do I start a game I can easily understand in a couple of hours whilst being rewarded immediately for playing it, or do I try to figure how my burn deck will be able to beat Show and Tell on a regular basis without getting anything for my troubles?

Its irrelevant if we agree or not, fact is, you may not like the direction MTG is taking, but WotC are (commercially) making all the right choices. I work part-time in the video-game industry as a designer. We used to do highly complex con-sims, some of military grade. In the past decade, the sales for this type of games went from thousands to hundreds, to dozens, to a point where if they are not part of a military programme, they are not worth developing anymore. That is what is happening to all types of complex (and expensive) entertaining. Its a new age.

I understand what you are saying about entry cost to Legacy being prohibitive, and I don't disagree. However, I don't think Legacy is significantly more complex to learn than other Mtg formats. The basic Mtg rules are the same. But it is more difficult to master. It is also more expensive, but that does not in any way change the fact that it is a better strategy game. Very high strategic depth might not be what everyone is looking for. Casual games exist for a reason, but so does strategy games. If you judge a game only by popularity and sales, you are not trying to evaluate its pure quality as a strategy game. Chess is relatively easy to learn, insanely difficult to master competitively, and a complete disaster from a modern sales perspective.

[jmlima]

... Casual games exist for a reason, but so does strategy games....

The point I'm trying is not that complex strategy games do not exist or that there is no public for them, the point I'm making is that you can sell thousands of one and millions of the other. If you are investing millions to develop, you need to recoup them. Even if you were investing thousands, if the choice is to make thousands or millions, any sane business would go for the millions, let alone a corporate giant like Hasbro.

Commercially, WotC is right. That is all I'm saying.

[Lord Seth]

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/148004395518/can-you-envision-creating-a-new-nonrotating

Nothing official, more a statement of future intent. It sounds likely to me though. Try some time in the future "Post Modern" (Silver Dot onwards perhaps) and see how it fits. Honestly, it stinks. Issues with Modern are fixable. If Modern dies, that's totally on them.
Seriously? "As Standard and Modern get more far apart"? They already are far apart! They were far apart when it was started and quite honestly I don't see them as having gotten more far apart, at least in terms of transitioning ability. Outside of Modern being more expensive, it's not any harder to jump from Standard to Modern than it was at the start (in terms of how many cards in your Standard deck transition to Modern); your Standard deck was already going to be unplayable in Modern from the get-go; at best you'd have maybe a few cards in it that happened to be playable in totally different decks in Modern. Back then it was Snapcaster Mage and Liliana, now it's Collected Company and Jace.

The funny thing is that the reason for the shortening of Extended was that they noticed Extended wasn't as popular as Legacy (which received much less support) and thought "ah, the problem is that it's too hard to jump to Extended from Standard" and shortened it, which didn't exactly work. I suppose to be fair a new nonrotating format might work better, but still it seems eerily similar to that bad reasoning. Though at least there they did have the legitimate issue that Extended was unpopular.

[Sidneyious]

I don't believe modern will become the legacy when the create a new-modern format which is very likely and actually inevitable for their goal with modern. You can already see that the entry barrier for Modern is getting higher and higher, which results in fewer Standard cards watering down. So they have to make a new cut to get rid of some old staples at some point. The interesting question will be how players will react to this. WHen it happens the first time players will know it at least could happen again. Essentially you have a new extended format then with a intransparant rotating structre.
When they make a new cutoff they will be pissed because they spent this much money now it's useless.

[CabalTherapy]

Legacy is inaccessible, they are right on that. We play it anyway, simply because it is a better game, much better than anything else they have to offer. I have tried Modern, really tried, and it sucks, there is nothing else I can say about it. Draft is not my thing, and I don't even want to say anything about Standard.

Based on what I have heard they think that Legacy is the same game as Standard or Modern, only less accessible, but that is a mistake. In a world of Hearthstone and what not, Legacy and Vintage offer strategic depth and challenging gameplay unmatched by anything else related to Mtg, and as far as I know unlike any other game out there. This is their true gold, they are sitting on it and don't even know it.

+1

Well said.

[Lord Seth]

I don't believe modern will become the legacy when the create a new-modern format which is very likely and actually inevitable for their goal with modern. You can already see that the entry barrier for Modern is getting higher and higher, which results in fewer Standard cards watering down. So they have to make a new cut to get rid of some old staples at some point. The interesting question will be how players will react to this. WHen it happens the first time players will know it at least could happen again. Essentially you have a new extended format then with a intransparant rotating structre.How are fewer Standard cards "watering down" into MOdern? Standard cards took the format over earlier this year and caused the most dominant deck the format has ever seen. And after that happened, Nahiri singlehandedly catapulted UWR Control to Tier 1. They're still having an impact.