[Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 2 [Archive]

Lemnear

08-10-2016, 06:47 AM

I was commenting on why people are slow to devote additional slots to cards like Winter Orb, precisely because people see SBs as inflexible...

Point taken here. The mayor reason Orb works for Delver is that Miracles isn't fond of boarding in Wear/Tear just for potential Orbs as the only target. That isn't an effect any deck can replicate and Miracles can adapt to that plan easily, as they will potential,y board out FoW in Delver Matchups anyways to open slots for removal like C.Judgement or W/T

Edit:

It's how most RUG Delver SBs are constructed. Based on the MD having a pretty standard 54/60 there are generally a certain number of cards you'll be boarding out in each matchup so the SB can be approached like this. It will be different for other decks, of course.

His point is that you can't just put in 2 Pithing Needles, 2 Null Rod and all the Winter Orbs you want to fight Miracles, there is the cost of SB space.

We definitely need to look at the people who are too dumb to come up with sideboards reflecting the metagame, but rather copy & paste random sideboard lists from the web and wonder, why they don't have enough SB cards for certain matchups. These people are sure the gold standard for our discussion here /s

Whitefaces

08-10-2016, 07:08 AM

We definitely need to look at the people who are too dumb to come up with sideboards reflecting the metagame, but rather copy & paste random sideboard lists from the web and wonder, why they don't have enough SB cards for certain matchups. These people are sure the gold standard for our discussion here /s

I didn't say anything like that? Why use an argument when hyperbole will do.

SB space and how many cards you have to SB out in a MU are real things that can't be ignored. Of course you'd like to be playing all the Orbs and Needles you can, but it doesn't work like that. Yes, you need to build with the metagame in mind, but these slots aren't free.

Lemnear

08-10-2016, 07:40 AM

I didn't say anything like that? Why use an argument when hyperbole will do.

You mean like you whinning that there are no slots to SB card like Orb because you have to play TNN, Loam, Clique, etc. "because thats how most RUG Delver SBs are constructed"? Quality arguments, dood.

SB space and how many cards you have to SB out in a MU are real things that can't be ignored. Of course you'd like to be playing all the Orbs and Needles you can, but it doesn't work like that. Yes, you need to build with the metagame in mind, but these slots aren't free.

Must be hard for notorious netdeckers to set priorities in their 75...

https://media.giphy.com/media/ToMjGpKRpvezPEjVyAo/giphy.gif

Whitefaces

08-10-2016, 08:05 AM

You mean like you whinning that there are no slots to SB card like Orb because you have to play TNN, Loam, Clique, etc. "because thats how most RUG Delver SBs are constructed"? Quality arguments, dood.

That's not what I said at all, your definition of whining is odd too.

I never said there are no SB slots to play cards like Orb either, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm pointing out that SB slots come with a cost.

One of the examples in the article of a better Miracles 'package' is

'Winter Orb, Winter Orb, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Null Rod.' - is this realistic to go in a RUG SB to still have the slots for other matchups?

Hopo

08-10-2016, 08:42 AM

Eh? Maybe because its symetrical, gets stuck in CounterTop and removed by Wear/Tear?

"it's bad because there are answers to it" is below the level of what I expect from these kind of conversations.

Winter orb has one big problem that you even mentioned: Not all decks can play it. Delver can and most likely should. Imagine what would happen if people did what they do in other formats all the time - adjust to the top decks and meta. People have played delver now, what, 3-4 years without orbs or anything and crying how miracles is so difficult to beat. Now when a premium sideboard tech is gaining ground, you drop in to say pretty much that it dies to removal. I don't understand your motives. Not sure if you want to contribute to pushing miracles to mortal status or keep up with the "bitching until something is banned because no tech can escape Council's judgement " stance.

You are likely witty and all but it's difficult to tell if you have a constructive point there somewhere or do you just love your own naysaying voice, so to say.

dte

08-10-2016, 08:50 AM

Thank you for the article, interesting read an well written.

Three things worth mentioning that I did not see:
- for non U players, the prevalence of Wear-Tear ia a push to stop playing Enchants, as while sylvan library, bitterblossom or choke are good cards, getting 2 for one'd by W/T is no fun and null rod & pithing are too good to eschew.
- On your last comment, that "there are no decks that could run Chalice of the Void that do not do so already." is not that true. I started to run a couple of copies in elf SB and am quite satisfied by it. I really believe more decks should think about it. I do not know why D&T is not playing it for instance, as it is almost their only possible interaction T1 vs storm/belcher, and an excellent follow up after a vial.
- no mention of land in the permanent based hate article part? Miracle is so bad at interacting with them. Pendlehaven, CoS, Bosejiu are great cards versus miracle. Tar pit is also ok.

I have no freaking idea, what your point is or why you see a SB like this set in stone in the first place

Couldn't agree more. And I also believe that this is a reason why so many SB are wrongly build: you often hear/read about cards that should "replace" others, as if some proportions were optimal in any given meta, and regardless of the exact card that fulfill any given role.

Megadeus

08-10-2016, 09:01 AM

The point is about RUG is that you shouldn't approach your sideboard to say, you have X removal, Y Grave hate, Z whatever else there's no room for winter orb because the internet says this is how to build a sideboard! This thinking process is exactly why people who simply copy and paste decks fail and wonder why so often.

Julian23

08-10-2016, 09:03 AM

What dte said.

Ever since Miracles adopted Wear // Tear in early 2015, what we should be looking for to beat them are Planeswalkers, Lands and impactful Instant/Sorceries. Seeing 3 Wear//Tear in the sideboard is something I see pop-up even more often Unfortunately there's little of great impact that's really good.

If you wanna go the old Enchantment/Artifact route, you better have a very fast clock and/or good countermagic vs their removal. Preferably both, which is why I really do like Winter Orb in Delver decks. I also like Boseiju in Lands, actually swinging the match in Land's favor. But that's not enough. We need more. Regarding Chalice, I tried running 4 copies in the Elves sideboard and it was quite ok vs Miracles, but nothing more. It also GREATLY takes away from the % you have vs other combo deck, which is the biggest aspect Joe, Philipp and others are missing in their articles: it's never about just beating Miracles. It's about beating Miracles in the context of the Legacy meta. It's still -EV to cut a couple of cards that are really good in a large number of matchups for cards that are pretty good vs Miracles (and a few other) matchups. Unless you actually wanna be hoping to run into Miracles a lot, which is quite odd considering that you wanted better help against them in the first place. This is also why Krosan Grip, one of the very best cards vs the deck sees pretty much zero play.

When I read Joe's tweets and Philipp's articles about how to hurt Miracles, I feel like right now they're answering questions that were asked two years ago.

Jain_Mor

08-10-2016, 09:27 AM

@Julian, truth.

Philipp pretty much says the same himself:

"The first example shows a classic, diversified suite of hate. However, if you are set on crushing (read beating) Miracles, I wouldn't advise such an approach. Don't get me wrong, such a combination may be incredibly powerful in a more mixed metagame and may be close to optimal under certain circumstances. But if you want to beat Miracles, you may want to make sure, similar to Dredge."

ie. playing a balanced sideboard for the meta will not help you against miracles. The deck is powerful+flexible enough that you need to skew your sideboard against it, however doing so is detrimental to the EV of your deck because legacy isn't like standard, people don't just jump onto the best deck, and so it is still only 15-20% of the winning meta.

I'm sure miracles would struggle if everyone were playing 1/3 of their sideboard slots as nullrods / needles / winterorbs XD but that would look like a broken situation to me. Is this what people think the format should become?

Megadeus

08-10-2016, 09:40 AM

What other match ups would you bring in winter orb? Lands, miracles, ? Mediocre against 12 post I'd think. This is why I like Ajani in my maverick deck right now.

Barook

08-10-2016, 10:00 AM

Ever since Miracles adopted Wear // Tear in early 2015, what we should be looking for to beat them are Planeswalkers, Lands and impactful Instant/Sorceries. Seeing 3 Wear//Tear in the sideboard is something I see pop-up even more often Unfortunately there's little of great impact that's really good.
If more PWs pop up to deal with Miracles, I expect them to simply play more Council's Judgment. Playable walkers are in the 3-4 mana range, so they have all the time in the world to set it up.

I also agree with previous posters that running a combination of enchantments and artifacts against them is no bueno because Wear/Tear 2-for-1s you.

As for Winter Orb, I wonder how the new Thalia impacts its playability.

TheArchitect

08-10-2016, 10:15 AM

If Miracles is such a menace, then isn't it worth running a card that is ONLY good against miracles?

You see people playing 3-4 leyline of the void or RIP that are only useful against 15-20% of the meta but people can't be bothered to play cards like null rod or winter orb (which are also good against 15-20% of the meta). There is is this strange mentality that every matchup NEEDS to have a few have SB cards to help beat it. Like Maverick and 4c Loam are awesome against GY decks, but people still insist on playing additional GY hate the SB, over playing cards that COULD swing the miracles matchup in there favor.

If miracles is such a monster you might have to play 5 specific cards in your SB to fight it. Will you lose % to win against other decks? Yes! But overall it might be worth it to make your miracles matchup better.

This is why I like Ajani in my maverick deck right now.

PW are good against miracles, especially ones that poop out tokens like Garruk or Gideon.

CptHaddock

08-10-2016, 10:20 AM

What other match ups would you bring in winter orb? Lands, miracles, ? Mediocre against 12 post I'd think. This is why I like Ajani in my maverick deck right now.

Aggro loam is probably another one. It seems pretty mediocre against everything else unless you can mana deny like some of RUG delver's hands.

@Einherjer

I think this article is better than the previous but I think that the complaints that people had with your writing style and the actual content of the article are still really apparent. I think Finn pointed them out in the last thread. It feels like you do the same thing in this article.

Einherjer, I don't recall if I gave you a hard time on your last article, but you need an editor, dude. You know your stuff, but the article is hard to read to the point that I can't even form opinions on the merits of the ideas you cover.

examples:
1. You are telling us not to FoW Top. That sounds very strange to me, and probably to a lot of people, though you may very well be correct. You apparently knew this would be news since we all know how critical the Top is to the success of that deck. Given how provocative a position that is, you really need more than the pittance of reasoning you supplied to back up that claim. And then you go on to give us paragraphs on the exceptions. This design makes it hard to figure out what message you are sending to the point that I am not even sure if I believe you.

2. You are telling us that Miracles is two decks in one, or some such. I don't really see any description of this. If there is any, it is not at all sufficient to balance the amount of words you spend telling us that this is so. I kept looking for the part that ties this again, provocative claim, only to be disappointed that the article ended with this remaining only a claim.

3. You are telling us that Miracles uses its cantrips as more than "filler". Honestly, I can make that argument for probably every cantripping deck in the format. If you mean that Brainstorm sets up miraculous draws, we got that. Is there more to this position? Once again, you highlight this provocative claim and don't deliver on the evidence. It's like reading Donald Trump on Magic theory.

4. There are other examples. The entire article is like this...

Great ideas. Terrible execution. I got to the end and I felt as if I got an hors d'oeuvre, but then no meal. (Saving it for part 2 is not good enough since you have a conclusion when none can be drawn.) All of my articles got edited. They all needed it too. Every professional writer is dependent upon an editor. All of them. Just get a friend to help you with this; someone with some literary chops.

btm10

08-10-2016, 12:41 PM

What other match ups would you bring in winter orb? Lands, miracles, ? Mediocre against 12 post I'd think. This is why I like Ajani in my maverick deck right now.

It's good against any deck that wants to spend its mana every turn: Shardless, Loam, Lands, and Miracles are the ones that come to mind.

You see people playing 3-4 leyline of the void or RIP that are only useful against 15-20% of the meta but people can't be bothered to play cards like null rod or winter orb (which are also good against 15-20% of the meta). There is is this strange mentality that every matchup NEEDS to have a few have SB cards to help beat it. Like Maverick and 4c Loam are awesome against GY decks, but people still insist on playing additional GY hate the SB, over playing cards that COULD swing the miracles matchup in there favor.

This hasn't been my experience with Loam (I can't speak to Maverick). Maybe if you're maindecking a Bojuka Bog it's better, but without the Bog your only G1 interaction against graveyard decks are two one-ofs (one of which is held up by summoning sickness and the other effectively costs 3) that you can find with GSZ, which is usually a 2-of.

EDIT: I think someone else said this, but all of these cards have been mentioned in the past: I know our Team America group from Cleveland was packing Negates, Creeping Tar Pit, Zur's Weirding, Needle, Null Rod, and Sylvan Library for the Miracles matchup shortly before Khans was printed and we had a lot of success with that approach. I know that Winter Orb was also discussed in several Delver decks around the same time.

TheArchitect

08-10-2016, 01:07 PM

This hasn't been my experience with Loam (I can't speak to Maverick). Maybe if you're maindecking a Bojuka Bog it's better, but without the Bog your only G1 interaction against graveyard decks are two one-ofs (one of which is held up by summoning sickness and the other effectively costs 3) that you can find with GSZ, which is usually a 2-of.

My point was that its not even the actual GY hate that's needed. Between, knight, Karakas, Waste, Lily, swords, Chalice AND ooze/deathrite, those decks already have a lot of ways to fight through something like dredge, lands or reanimator. You don't need to reach some set number of "GY hate cards" to beat "GY decks".

The GY hate example is the most black and white example, but its the same as adding 3 disfigures and a golgari charm to a SB of a deck with 4 decay, X deluge, 4 strix and 3 lilys in the maindeck. Will it make you creature matchups better? Sure. Will it make them significantly better? Probably not. But playing garruk relentless, 2 needles and library would be high impact in your miracles matchup.

*Playing 1 bog is pretty reasonable though. I just cringe every time I see 2 RIP in maverick.

Lemnear

08-10-2016, 02:40 PM

"it's bad because there are answers to it" is below the level of what I expect from these kind of conversations.

Take a closer look here. Its a difference between "there ARE answers" and (what I implied) "the whole deck is full of answers", with the later being something I consider a mayor flaw for SB techs. You need to attack from angles your opponent isn't covering fully already.

Winter orb has one big problem that you even mentioned: Not all decks can play it. Delver can and most likely should. Imagine what would happen if people did what they do in other formats all the time - adjust to the top decks and meta. People have played delver now, what, 3-4 years without orbs or anything and crying how miracles is so difficult to beat.

I am totally with you here on "people have to adjust their deck before whinning". Mind that Orb has to prove itself first being an insurmountable hate for Miracles vs. Tempo, but Tempo/Delver aside, the angles to fight Miracles back aren't that great and only Decay has made a lasting impact which made us end up with AD as the gold standard of removal in Legacy. If you consider that statistic an indicator of a problem itself, is up to you.

Now when a premium sideboard tech is gaining ground, you drop in to say pretty much that it dies to removal. I don't understand your motives. Not sure if you want to contribute to pushing miracles to mortal status or keep up with the "bitching until something is banned because no tech can escape Council's judgement " stance.

I take it as a compliment that you can't put me in a box, because I AM in neither camp as the topic is stupid to look at like it being black/white. I analyze the topic for the last two years and there are no easy solutions to Miracles as a deck which would boil down to "run card x and you have suddenly an even/favorable matchup". Pointing to Orb as the Hail Mary is as flawed as past attempts to ascend Teeg to that status for the same reasons: You have to a) get it into play, b) keep it in play and c) it needs to wreck Miracles fundamental gameplan. While Orb gets a nod from me in terms of c), the points a) & b) are highly questionable. Its not that we consider Pyroblast an anti-Countertop tech either, no?

I am a sceptical person when it comes to hypes for new cards/techs and I want to look at techs from all sides and not just perfect scenarios. Thats all. Orb has not proven to be "premium"

You are likely witty and all but it's difficult to tell if you have a constructive point there somewhere or do you just love your own naysaying voice, so to say.

As pointed out, its not "naysaying", its "adressing potential issues to get a more complete picture". I hate it if obvious weaknesses (like Orb being symmetric, Miracles running removal/counter anyways and it getting stuck in Counterbalance easy) are sweept under the rug just to keep dreaming of how good it is as an unresisted Turn 2 play after a turn 1 Delver. Its an dishonest discussion in that case.

The point is about RUG is that you shouldn't approach your sideboard to say, you have X removal, Y Grave hate, Z whatever else there's no room for winter orb because the internet says this is how to build a sideboard! This thinking process is exactly why people who simply copy and paste decks fail and wonder why so often.

This. Critical thinking is rare these days, no matter if its about evaluating SB cards or analyzing the meta

for non U players, the prevalence of Wear-Tear ia a push to stop playing Enchants, as while sylvan library, bitterblossom or choke are good cards, getting 2 for one'd by W/T is no fun and null rod & pithing are too good to eschew

Thats part of my argument, pointing at the questionable idea of fighting with 2-3 sideboard 1cc/2cc artifacts/enchantments against CounterTop + 3 W/T + Snapcasters and more.

If more PWs pop up to deal with Miracles, I expect them to simply play more Council's Judgment. Playable walkers are in the 3-4 mana range, so they have all the time in the world to set it up.

I also agree with previous posters that running a combination of enchantments and artifacts against them is no bueno because Wear/Tear 2-for-1s you.

Correct. Thats the whole issue in a nutshell: Miracles as efficient answers to every damn angle of attack and the answers are often cheaper than the threats

iatee

08-10-2016, 03:17 PM

If you run a deck that is fundamentally soft to Miracles (e.g. most Delver variants, Elves), then you can't expect to suddenly have a 50%+ matchup by tossing in a few sideboard cards. You can push up your EW % with those cards, and you can win many matches. But you shouldn't expect to make the matchup 50%+ unless you wreck your sideboard for it...and that's to be expected, that's how all it is for most decks with bad matchups. The decks that aren't fundamentally soft to Miracles can have very strong Miracles matchups with a few sideboard cards.

If you want to beat them consistently, play more haymaker sideboard cards than they have answers. If you want to beat them sometimes, play a few and sometimes you'll get there. Or just don't play a deck that's soft to Miracles...

Julian23

08-10-2016, 03:52 PM

Or just don't play a deck that's soft to Miracles...

Which sadly has become the general motto of the format :cry:

CabalTherapy

08-10-2016, 04:17 PM

Which sadly has become the general motto of the format :cry:

Kind of true but the amount of Needles in SBs is too low. :cool:

iatee

08-10-2016, 04:31 PM

There are lots of decks that aren't naturally soft to the best and most played deck in the format. It sucks if your favorite deck happens to be soft to it, but you can't let your attachment to a pet deck determine whether something needs to be banned / whether the format is broken.

marax

08-10-2016, 04:37 PM

I think it is interesting that Winter Orb is discussed as the new awesome tech when it was already used to reach Top 8 in 2013 at GP Strassbourg (as a 2 of). I distinctly remember testing the card before the event and it was great vs. Miracles, Stoneblade and other mana intensive decks. And the card was found in other people's SBs on deck list sites - lots of people had that idea back then. The big problem is that Needle and co. are just too bad against the field to be worth it in big numbers to beat the ~10-15% of Miracles. It just seems to not pay of to cut FLusterstorm and likewise cards to improve Miracles becuase you lose too much in Delver mirrors and vs. combo.

I also think you are missing the most important way to improve the Miracles MU. Avoid the MU altogether by never ever drawing. If you have a really bad Miracles MU and you would get your first draw with 10 rounds to go it's probably best to scoop instead :rolleyes:

Megadeus

08-10-2016, 05:16 PM

Again, yes there are permanent based answers that are good, but miracles has now adapted wear tear to the board as well as some number of councils judgement, plus mentor. It used to be that sticking a walker was very very good against them. It's still solid, but they have a creature that goes wide very quickly to pressure your walker or they simply have judgement as an answer. Choke used to be my go to. Now every time I cast choke they seem to easily wear tear it. Hence why decks like lands now have adopted Boseju and Boil. It's just that like someone said in this thread or another (barook, lemnear or Julian I believe), miracles has the best mana base, the best card filtering, the best removal, and the best counter suite. I would go as far to say the second, maybe actual best, best card advantage engine in CB or Jace. Mentor is also arguably one of the best creatures in the format. They deck is very very difficult to straight up hate out because of these reasons. At least if something like storm or show and tell were the "oppressors" we could play leylines and banishing lights or something.

Fox

08-10-2016, 07:55 PM

"it's bad because there are answers to it" is below the level of what I expect from these kind of conversations.
So as far as Delver goes, they're bringing in W//T. This is known b/c the only card left in their decks they can hope to resolve are 4 copies of FoW and a 1-2x Delve critter once you find it with CB/SDT. The issue is more that you know the answer is coming in post-board, and they see way more cards than you (there's not a huge difference between looks you got with DTT vs SDT and 2x Fetchlands). The statistical odds of finding the SB cards are stacked massively in their favor. "Maybe they won't have it" mentality doesn't exactly challenge people to be better players of the game.

If they resolve that CB, you just got Strip Mine'd off all lands and the only 'lands' left in your deck are called Abrupt Decay...so uh, hope you topdeck it without card filtering and whatever you had on board. To continue the metaphor, you can play 'manaless' with the uncounterable clauses of Caverns/Boseju...but that's the threat level of CB/SDT lock. It's actually quite critical that your SB card works and doesn't run into answers, 'cause it's not like you get a chance to recover. It's like bringing in Gaddock Teeg to beat Terminus...he's getting hit by StP or will die the moment you attack. Now sure Miracles will die to Teeg on rare occasions, but I'd probably file that one under 'I got a win for making poor choices; sometimes you get lucky I guess.'

It's not so much 'dies to removal' as much as doing something like bringing in GY-based answers in vs a Leyline/Helm deck. Some things are bad ideas from the start; sometimes it works, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Megadeus

08-10-2016, 08:16 PM

So as far as Delver goes, they're bringing in W//T. This is known b/c the only card left in their decks they can hope to resolve are 4 copies of FoW and a 1-2x Delve critter once you find it with CB/SDT. The issue is more that you know the answer is coming in post-board, and they see way more cards than you (there's not a huge difference between looks you got with DTT vs SDT and 2x Fetchlands). The statistical odds of finding the SB cards are stacked massively in their favor. "Maybe they won't have it" mentality doesn't exactly challenge people to be better players of the game.

If they resolve that CB, you just got Strip Mine'd off all lands and the only 'lands' left in your deck are called Abrupt Decay...so uh, hope you topdeck it without card filtering and whatever you had on board. To continue the metaphor, you can play 'manaless' with the uncounterable clauses of Caverns/Boseju...but that's the threat level of CB/SDT lock. It's actually quite critical that your SB card works and doesn't run into answers, 'cause it's not like you get a chance to recover. It's like bringing in Gaddock Teeg to beat Terminus...he's getting hit by StP or will die the moment you attack. Now sure Miracles will die to Teeg on rare occasions, but I'd probably file that one under 'I got a win for making poor choices; sometimes you get lucky I guess.'

It's not so much 'dies to removal' as much as doing something like bringing in GY-based answers in vs a Leyline/Helm deck. Some things are bad ideas from the start; sometimes it works, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
Pretty much this. It's really hard to resolve mom, keep her active, and resolve teeg. At least in my experience. Maybe just small sample sizes, but usually my mom gets stp'd, then teeg comes down and just waits for their infinite filtering to find another swords, snapcaster for swords, or councils judgement

Stevestamopz

08-10-2016, 08:17 PM

Which sadly has become the general motto of the format :cry:

But isn't that true of any deck and the top decks in the format?

Why can't I play Goblins competitively anymore?

Can't beat Show and Derp decks;
Can't beat "value" Deathrite Shaman decks;
Can't beat Storm decks;
Can't beat True Name Nemesis + Equipment;
Can't beat Death and Taxes;

aka, the whole format minus Miracles.

ESG

08-10-2016, 08:56 PM

- On your last comment, that "there are no decks that could run Chalice of the Void that do not do so already." is not that true. I started to run a couple of copies in elf SB and am quite satisfied by it. I really believe more decks should think about it.

This has to be the most convincing evidence presented of Miracles' domination: Elves sideboarding Chalice of the Void. 20-plus cards locked out on both sides. Sure, why not?

Megadeus

08-10-2016, 11:02 PM

But isn't that true of any deck and the top decks in the format?

Why can't I play Goblins competitively anymore?

Can't beat Show and Derp decks;
Can't beat "value" Deathrite Shaman decks;
Can't beat Storm decks;
Can't beat True Name Nemesis + Equipment;
Can't beat Death and Taxes;

aka, the whole format minus Miracles.

This post pretty much sums up much of why legacy is getting to be so boring. Terminus derp. Show and tell griselderp. True Name with a Jitte suck my ass. Oh look here's a 1 mana mana dork that can drain you and is an X/2. Get fucked. Even eldrazi is pretty miserable to play against. Here's a pile of under costed beat sticks that are very tough to remove. As someone who generally has loved legacy for 4 years, it's gotten to the point where every deck has mostly uninteresting things. It's really weird when I feel like storm provides me with the most interesting matches some days

Scott

08-10-2016, 11:12 PM

This post pretty much sums up much of why legacy is getting to be so boring. Terminus derp. Show and tell griselderp. True Name with a Jitte suck my ass. Oh look here's a 1 mana mana dork that can drain you and is an X/2. Get fucked. Even eldrazi is pretty miserable to play against. Here's a pile of under costed beat sticks that are very tough to remove. As someone who generally has loved legacy for 4 years, it's gotten to the point where every deck has mostly uninteresting things. It's really weird when I feel like storm provides me with the most interesting matches some days

On the bright side, a lot of Elves decks have shed Hoofderp, and are back to the height of cool.

Edit: It's more accurate to say that they've shed NOderp.

MorphBerlin

08-11-2016, 03:17 AM

When I read Joe's tweets and Philipp's articles about how to hurt Miracles, I feel like right now they're answering questions that were asked two years ago.

Sometimes I ask myself if these dedicated Miracles playets ever sat down at the other side of the table and test their "solutions" and how miserable they can play out.

Quasim0ff

08-11-2016, 03:26 AM

Which sadly has become the general motto of the format :cry:

How about playing a well-tuned shardless list, a bug delver deck with a good sideboard approach, Death and Taxes, Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show?

You are playing a creature combo deck. Miracles plays sweepers, swords and snapcasters. What do you expect?

TracerBullet

08-11-2016, 03:39 AM

How about playing a well-tuned shardless list, a bug delver deck with a good sideboard approach, Death and Taxes, Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show?

You are playing a creature combo deck. Miracles plays sweepers, swords and snapcasters. What do you expect?

You're right. It's his fault for wearing really sexy clothes.

The repeated attempts to rationalize why the rest of the metagame has lost to miracles for the last two! plus years actually make me laugh. If your argument is that people need to SB more for the vastly overperforming 18% of the metagame, doesn't that lead to the conclusion that miracles is a format-warping deck and needs correction? Have we ever gotten to a two plus year metagame where the problem was somehow (incredibly) that people just plain hadn't caught on and needed to sideboard more against the best deck in the format? Do miracles players really think that everyone else is that stupid?

If the argument is "the roughly 4-6 sb slots you're dedicating to beating my deck isn't enough", doesn't that speak to the fact that your deck is too good? That if every other deck is expected to devote more than half their sb to making this one matchup slightly better than 50/50, maybe you're actually the problem?

Hopo

08-11-2016, 03:52 AM

Which sadly has become the general motto of the format :cry:

This is what all other constructed formats are all about. It escapes me why legacy players stay still and let miracles do its thing without resistance.

Crimhead

08-11-2016, 03:55 AM

Which sadly has become the general motto of the format :cry:
Or play a deck that is soft to Miracles but has enough other good matches to be competetive (like Storm or Delver).

Just don't play a tier two deck and complain about a tier one deck mopping the floor with you! If you're playing Elves or Maverick in a hostile meta, you're not really trying very hard.

Ingo

08-11-2016, 04:47 AM

If the argument is "the roughly 4-6 sb slots you're dedicating to beating my deck isn't enough", doesn't that speak to the fact that your deck is too good?

I don't think we should put too much hope in sideboardcards, as it means your maindeck will remain soft to Miracles. We'll still loose game 1 and have to win 2 games, granted with hatecards, but Miracles will its own counterhate to level things out. If you want to consistently beat Miracles, we should be looking at the maindeck.
That's why I like things like maindeck Winterorb (tempo), Boseiju (lands), ... as they're maindeckable cards that that make preboard games vs Miracles better, but staying in line with the deck's core strategy. I'm sure there are likewise cards for other decks as well. Are there no possibilities through Green Sun's Zenith? Chalices + Cavern of Souls for creatureheavy decks?

Quasim0ff

08-11-2016, 04:55 AM

You're right. It's his fault for wearing really sexy clothes.

The repeated attempts to rationalize why the rest of the metagame has lost to miracles for the last two! plus years actually make me laugh. If your argument is that people need to SB more for the vastly overperforming 18% of the metagame, doesn't that lead to the conclusion that miracles is a format-warping deck and needs correction? Have we ever gotten to a two plus year metagame where the problem was somehow (incredibly) that people just plain hadn't caught on and needed to sideboard more against the best deck in the format? Do miracles players really think that everyone else is that stupid?

If the argument is "the roughly 4-6 sb slots you're dedicating to beating my deck isn't enough", doesn't that speak to the fact that your deck is too good? That if every other deck is expected to devote more than half their sb to making this one matchup slightly better than 50/50, maybe you're actually the problem?

But that's basically how magic is. You can't expect to do well against a control deck, if you don't try to constraint it. Miracles is a strong deck, and devoting 4-5 slots is not enough. Just like if you want to, consistently, beat dredge, you gotta adapt.

Lemnear

08-11-2016, 05:10 AM

But that's basically how magic is. You can't expect to do well against a control deck, if you don't try to constraint it. Miracles is a strong deck, and devoting 4-5 slots is not enough. Just like if you want to, consistently, beat dredge, you gotta adapt.

To a certain extend. Losing game 1 and devoting at least half your sideboard to that matchup in the delusional idea that you win 2/2 postboard games that way is a flawed plan we know from the 6 years of Vintage MUD reign

Dice_Box

08-11-2016, 05:13 AM

But that's basically how magic is. You can't expect to do well against a control deck, if you don't try to constraint it. Miracles is a strong deck, and devoting 4-5 slots is not enough. Just like if you want to, consistently, beat dredge, you gotta adapt.
Thing is though, for all Dredges power it is shut down with little effort. There is no single card like Leyline for Miracles. The best you can hope for is something like Needle or Orb, things that don't lock them totally, in the case of Orb fuck you too and lastly, they can easily remove thanks to their manipulation.

I have 4 Grip, a Boseiju and 4 Tracker. I personally don't give two fucks about Miracles but then again, I don't sideboard if your playing Delver. I am one of the lucky ones. Not everyone can do that.

ESG

08-11-2016, 05:28 AM

Chalices + Cavern of Souls for creatureheavy decks?

Most creature decks are already playing one or both of these, or are playing countermagic. Eldrazi runs both. Merfolk runs both. Aggro Loam runs Chalice. Goblins runs Cavern of Souls but is still going extinct. Death & Taxes and Elves play some number of Caverns now.

To those who say that people haven't adapted, this is untrue and oversimplified. You can skew a deck further to gain percentage points on Miracles -- such as playing Null Rod in your main deck -- but this is only a profitable strategy if you expect to play against the deck multiple times in a tournament. For at least a year now, I have exclusively played decks that I feel have decent matchups against Miracles. Being a brewer, I defintely would prefer to switch things up and play other decks, but so many decks are poorly positioned against either Miracles or the rest of the format that it doesn't make sense. Legacy is at a much higher power level now, and that makes for a much more narrow and constrained deck-building experience. As I said before, some players enjoy a wide-open metagame where lots of strategies are viable, and others prefer more narrow metagames.

@Hopo: Stop with this nonsense about other formats adapting. Standard has had plenty of periods of domination by one strategy, but the format rotates. Modern has seen a succession of bans. Even Vintage has had more B&R shifts than Legacy.

Ingo

08-11-2016, 05:50 AM

Most creature decks are already playing one or both of these, or are playing countermagic. Eldrazi runs both. Merfolk runs both. Aggro Loam runs Chalice. Goblins runs Cavern of Souls but is still going extinct. Death & Taxes and Elves play some number of Caverns now.

I should have been more clear, because it's the chalice that really hits Miracles, not Cavern (breaking Chalices' symmetry, dodging Counterbalance is a bonus). The decks you've listed with maindeck chalices have a positive Miracles matchup (Eldrazi, Aggro Loam). No idea how the Merfolk/Miracles matchup plays out, but I can imagine that vial/chalice is favored versus Miracles.

So what would happen if you'd add maindeck chalices to Goblins, D&T and Elves? Goblins has a positive Miracles matchup, additional chalices would make the matchup even better but probably doesn't make the deck better versus the rest of the field. D&T would probably fare well with chalices, as suggested in a previous post. I have no experience with elves, but I often read that playing through a chalice1 isn't that hard? Perhaps a viable Elves deck with maindecked chalices is possible with Caverns, although it wouldn't be able to glimpse chain?

dte

08-11-2016, 07:32 AM

So what would happen if you'd add maindeck chalices to Goblins, D&T and Elves? Goblins has a positive Miracles matchup, additional chalices would make the matchup even better but probably doesn't make the deck better versus the rest of the field. D&T would probably fare well with chalices, as suggested in a previous post. I have no experience with elves, but I often read that playing through a chalice1 isn't that hard? Perhaps a viable Elves deck with maindecked chalices is possible with Caverns, although it wouldn't be able to glimpse chain?

That is something I tried (elves with CotV). And the clear answer is no, it is not worth it.
Hell, most often I do not even SB it in against most delver decks or non-storm combo decks.
CotV is not that great against elves (certainly way poorer than most non-elves player imagine) because elves can play through it but mostly because elves have a lot of ways to remove a CotV (4 GSZ, 1 sage, 0-3 CoS MD, +3/4 AD SB), especially against deck that do not play countermagic (making the 4 GSZ and Sage way more effective).

Additionally, miracle has (again) a lot of answers to CotV: FoW, Council, CB lock, Wear-Tear, SDT (having already SDT let you play a lot and potentially lock with CB, find your terminuses, council, ...), ...

CotV is an ok card to have in elves SB (being very good vs storm and good vs miracle), but far from MD material. However running more CoS is doable.

In D&T I do not play the deck so cannot really answer but I believe it is something worth pondering about.

Zombie

08-11-2016, 07:38 AM

The problem with adding more Caverns to Elves is the manabase, which is already hilariously awful for what's essentially a monocolour deck.

Barook

08-11-2016, 08:37 AM

It escapes me why legacy players stay still and let miracles do its thing without resistance.
It's not like people aren't trying since over two years. The problem is that it just isn't effective.

The main problem is that you can tune your deck to get better vs Miracles - at the cost of being crap against the rest of the format, which simply isn't worth the opportunity cost. That's the crux. There are no Magical Christmasland cards that suddenly turn Miracles into a 90/10 match-up, simply because too many of their problematic cards are very hard/nigh-impossible to attack or your hate cards die to their hail of flexible removal.

As for D&T, the deck runs a number of crucial 1-drops themselves, so running MD Chalice isn't exactly the best plan. To add to that, you can't cast it before T2 anyway, which is sometimes too slow. As for Cavern in D&T, it does come at a cost - double white cards are getting less likely to be castable, same for StP, activating SFM becomes harder. Note that D&T already runs less than the optimal amount of white sources (15 isn't ideal) and only gets away with it most of the time due cheating with Aether Vial. Each Cavern replacing a white source makes the issue only worse. Imperial Taxes can afford more Caverns due to mana fixing requirements and the deck having alot of humans, at the cost of speed and higher chance of mana screw.

Lemnear

08-11-2016, 08:44 AM

Hopo

08-11-2016, 09:22 AM

It's not like people aren't trying since over two years. The problem is that it just isn't effective.

The main problem is that you can tune your deck to get better vs Miracles - at the cost of being crap against the rest of the format, which simply isn't worth the opportunity cost. That's the crux. There are no Magical Christmasland cards that suddenly turn Miracles into a 90/10 match-up, simply because too many of their problematic cards are very hard/nigh-impossible to attack or your hate cards die to their hail of flexible removal.

I don't talk about tuning random decks unplayable but playing more decks that don't auto-lose to it. Tezz, infect, eldrazis, shardless, goblins, 12-post etc. are all reasonable decks that are well positioned against miracles even if they might lack on other fronts. Or like has been mentioned, choose a deck that might struggle against miracles but crush most of the meta, like storm.

If metagame turns hostile for miracles, miracles will decline. I feel that this change is not possible by fine-tuning sideboards. Players need to start playing decks that beat miracles. As an example: If you play something like straight elves many years in a row and keep losing hard to miracles kicking you constantly out of top8's, you are out of your mind to not switch decks.

The issue with legacy might just be that people are so super invested in single decks and they might not be able to switch to another due to financial reasons. That, of course, sucks.

dte

08-11-2016, 10:01 AM

If you play something like straight elves many years in a row and keep losing hard to miracles kicking you constantly out of top8's, you are out of your mind to not switch decks.

I would say that if after years playing elves you keep losing hard to miracles the solution is not to play another deck, but to try to have a better understanding of the MU.
I would really strongly advise the elves player to try playtesting with miracle against elves, if not already done.

Playing another deck may be a solution if it is for a deck that you understand better, but otherwise I'm afraid it will still be "I didn't win because I faced some bad MUs" result, the bad MU will just be something else than miracle.

Lemnear

08-11-2016, 10:03 AM

Tezz, eldrazis, shardless, goblins etc. are all reasonable decks that are well positioned against miracles even if they might lack on other fronts.

If metagame turns hostile for miracles, miracles will decline. I feel that this change is not possible by fine-tuning sideboards. Players need to start playing decks that beat miracles.

If such decks would indeed rise, Miracles would sideboard Moat and call it a day

Edit: fixed quote

Finn

08-11-2016, 10:03 AM

Fighting Miracles...

During the Treasure Cruise era, I worked on a deck that had a pretty darned good matchup against Miracles organically. The reason was that it ran Archive Trap and Extirpate in the main with Snapcasters to recur. You can see how good they are in tandem, but actually both are pretty good just by themselves, as they can nerf the miracle mechanic. I'm sure you can see where this is going. But the advanced idea at the time was to dull the point of the opponents' decks by removing key cards. My thinking was that due to the extra high number of cantrips in Miracles and Delver decks, they would have few real cards and mostly filler. So, nabbing two would put them in a tough spot. The plan was not robust enough and ultimately failed against most decks, but not against Miracles.

I dunno. If the usual stuff does not work, this just might. Shardless decks in particular might make good use of these tools. Does Shadless even need help against Miracles in the 6-7 sb slot range?

Ingo

08-11-2016, 10:09 AM

Chalice is mediocre given you can't stop the T1 SDT unless you run Sol-Lands and them being able to FoW it or remove it with W/T later. It shares the same issues with Winter Orb. One restricts mana, the other blocks Ponder/Brainstorm. Both fold to CounterTop @ 2, W/T, FoW, etc.

(Almost) any card can be FoW'ed, the T1 SDT as well, so that's no argument. If Miracles drops the T1 top, congrats, looks like a good opening hand. If he has top + Fow, even more congrats. And if there's counterbalance as well, the game probably's already over.

There's no point in 'this card can be FoW'ed' or it's blocked by counterbalance, because it's true for 99% of Legacy viable cards. Point is, chalice does not have to be backbreaking, if it lands pre-top, things are looking extremely good. If it lands posttop, there's still brainstorm, ponder, swords and Snappy flashing them back that are getting stopped (goodluck finding Council's Judgement). And if chalice is found post-countertop, sure it was a measure for nothing. As for W/T, that's why decks should aim for maindeck cards instead of relying on the side.

Hopo

08-11-2016, 10:14 AM

If such decks would indeed rise, Miracles would sideboard Moat and call it a day

There is little point in this discussion when you just cold-bloodedly claim stupid things like Moat being an answer to Tezz, 12-post and infect. Try to stick to things that hold true. If miracles is the monster you claim, there should be no need to rip ridiculous statements out of one's ass.

Lemnear

08-11-2016, 10:20 AM

There is little point in this discussion when you just cold-bloodedly claim stupid things like Moat being an answer to Tezz, 12-post and infect. Try to stick to things that hold true. If miracles is the monster you claim, there should be no need to rip ridiculous statements out of one's ass.

How do Goblins or Eldrazi beat Moat? Sorry for the extended quote instead of cherrypicking like you did here.

Edit: I fixed the quote to make it more clear.

Hopo

08-11-2016, 10:26 AM

How do Goblins or Eldrazi beat Moat? Sorry for the extended quote instead of cherrypicking like you did here.

Eldrazi has worldbreaker, maybe something else. I don't see them winning too easily through a Moat. Goblins lose against it. What did I cherrypick? It was all in your reply. Bottom line: it's not my fault that you claim untrue things. Veiling an insult in a non-apology i just lame.

Barook

08-11-2016, 10:45 AM

How do Goblins or Eldrazi beat Moat?
Eldrazi has Worldbreaker and All is Dust. There's also Endbringer, but pinging your opponent to death isn't a very realistic scenario before the Miracle player has removal for it.

Blood Moon and especially B2B are more problematic, imho.

Lemnear

08-11-2016, 10:54 AM

Eldrazi has worldbreaker, maybe something else. I don't see them winning too easily through a Moat. Goblins lose against it. What did I cherrypick? It was all in your reply. Bottom line: it's not my fault that you claim untrue things. Veiling an insult in a non-apology i just lame.

What do you want from me? You list a few decks you consider good against miracles (and only miracles), I quote the whole bunch pointing that sideboarding Moat invalids some if these deckchoices made for Miracles in particular and you cherrypick stuff like 12-Post out of that list to ridicule my point about how easy Miracles can adapt IN CASE these decks would become more common (which is pointless from the start, because some of these are not well positioned in the meta despite Miracles presence).

Eldrazi has Worldbreaker and All is Dust. There's also Endbringer, but pinging your opponent to death isn't a very realistic scenario before the Miracle player has removal for it.

Blood Moon and especially B2B are more problematic, imho.

I could have named Bloodmoon as well as an easy to adapt SB option for Miracles to fight 12-Post, Shardless and Eldrazi, but then Hopo would slap me with "but Goblins!" just because it was in the same line I quoted

Chatto

08-11-2016, 10:55 AM

How do Goblins or Eldrazi beat Moat? Sorry for the extended quote instead of cherrypicking like you did here.

Edit: I fixed the quote to make it more clear.

Goblins cannot beat Moat, unless they splash Green or White for a Disenchant-effect or are able to stick a lot of creatures to sac to Skirk Prospector, which enables you to ping your opponent with Goblin Sharpshooter... All of this must be done in one turn. I pulled the latter off, exactly once, and almost ten years ago (don't think it was against Miracles though)

In other words: Moat is pretty hard to beat.

dte

08-11-2016, 11:03 AM

(Almost) any card can be FoW'ed, the T1 SDT as well, so that's no argument.

That' one of the most repeated seemingly truism in legacy, and it is totally false.

Every spell you play represent an investment. To get a DRS FoWed is much less of a loss than getting a TNN FoWed.
Here, CotV represent a very high cost on deck construction. Getting it FoWed can be a huge setback. Much more than having your daze on the opposing T1 SDT FoWed, for instance. That is why nobody ever argue that daze is not good because it can be forced, while you'll often read it as an attack against, say, NO.

And globally, FoW is one of the reason why non-U deck try to rely a lot on cards that cannot be FoWed against miracle (the otherwise being of course CB): Decay, CoS, Bosejiu.

Hopo

08-11-2016, 11:08 AM

I could have named Bloodmoon as well as an easy to adapt SB option for Miracles to fight 12-Post, Shardless and Eldrazi, but then Hopo would slap me with "but Goblins!" just because it was in the same line I quoted

Oh please. You didn't just quote but BOLDED decks like 12-post and tezz as decks that Moat would be sideboarded against.

But that's none of my business.

Ingo

08-11-2016, 11:13 AM

That' one of the most repeated seemingly truism in legacy, and it is totally false.

Every spell you play represent an investment. To get a DRS FoWed is much less of a loss than getting a TNN FoWed.
Here, CotV represent a very high cost on deck construction. Getting it FoWed can be a huge setback. Much more than having your daze on the opposing T1 SDT FoWed, for instance. That is why nobody ever argue that daze is not good because it can be forced, while you'll often read it as an attack against, say, NO.

And globally, FoW is one of the reason why non-U deck try to rely a lot on cards that cannot be FoWed against miracle (the otherwise being of course CB): Decay, CoS, Bosejiu.

Ofcourse it's true that depending on the card you'll FoW, you'll get more value out of it. Point is that you cannot make this a guideline to discuss cards, since the shortlist that's Forceproof is pretty short, as you pointed out yourself.

iatee

08-11-2016, 11:14 AM

Miracles can't beat Goblins without Moat, but Goblins can't beat Moat, but Moat can't beat Disenchant. Unless Miracles has a Counterspell. But then what if Goblins has another Disenchant? But then what if Miracles has another Counterspell? But then what if Goblins has a Red Elemental Blast? But what if Miracles has a Force of Will? But then what if Goblins has another Red Elemental Blast?

The idea that a card or strategy is bad because...'answers to it exist' is inane. There are answers to everything, answers to those answers, and answers to the answers to those answers. Moat is a good answer to some decks in the format, but Miracles won't always find it and can't always afford the SB spot (or the card itself...)

This theoretical world where Miracles always and forever has the answers to every problem it ever faces doesn't match the real world where Miracles actually loses a lot, even sometimes to its good matchups, because a good percentage of the time it can't find or resolve its answers.

dte

08-11-2016, 11:32 AM

Ofcourse it's true that depending on the card you'll FoW, you'll get more value out of it. Point is that you cannot make this a guideline to discuss cards, since the shortlist that's Forceproof is pretty short, as you pointed out yourself.

On the contrary. You should use it to discuss cards, as a good card is either one that cannot be forced, one that does not put you in to much trouble if it gets forced (i.e. low investment), or one that win the game if not forced.
FoW is an important card.

The idea that a card or strategy is bad because...'answers to it exist' is inane. There are answers to everything, answers to those answers, and answers to the answers to those answers. Moat is a good answer to some decks in the format, but Miracles won't always find it and can't always afford the SB spot (or the card itself...)

It is absolutely not inane. and all the game is exactly about which cards are not or badly answered by the likely answer that miracles currently have. So cards that are heavy investment and are soft to StP, Wear-Tear or FoW should not be considered as good.
A card that can be easily answered but is light investment, such as phyrexian revoker, is however acceptable (but not great).

Discussing about what miracle can do to adapt, however, is inane. If miracle players are in a spot that they should adapt, then it means that what they had to adapt to was a good idea.
And when they had adapted, then you can think again of something else.

Julian23

08-11-2016, 11:33 AM

iatee, that really was a Trump-level of oversimplification and strawmanning.

You really should read dte's previous post. He's providing a great explanation of why "it can be countered" is an important and relevant argument.

square_two

08-11-2016, 11:35 AM

This theoretical world where Miracles always and forever has the answers to every problem it ever faces doesn't match the real world where Miracles actually loses a lot, even sometimes to its good matchups, because a good percentage of the time it can't find or resolve its answers.

What? Miracles is the #1 deck at filtering and finding cards in it's library. It's the entire point of the deck. It's why it can run sorceries that are only good when you draw them for the first time on a turn. The whole package enables the deck to find its sideboard cards faster and more consistently than any other deck available.

rufus

08-11-2016, 11:36 AM

...
This theoretical world where Miracles always and forever has the answers to every problem it ever faces doesn't match the real world where Miracles actually loses a lot, even sometimes to its good matchups, because a good percentage of the time it can't find or resolve its answers.

We can think of miracles as a deck full of generic answers. That makes miracles very strong against opponents who are looking to win on the back of a small number of high impact cards - in particular, that means that individual sideboard cards are unlikely to have more than a marginally positive impact. That perspective suggests that sideboarding against miracles should be at least as much about what cards you take out as about what cards get put in, and that it's very hard to turn around a poor miracles match-up with sideboard options.

Lemnear

08-11-2016, 11:40 AM

Finn

08-11-2016, 11:50 AM

I'm happy to stay out of the fray. A couple of facts though:

1. Goblins was notorious for killing opponents before they got to four mana and a sweeper back in the day. Landstill in particular had to fetch all basics to sometimes have a chance.

2. A very friggin long time ago, The Deck was able to dominate the game of magic by simply landing Moat and only giving a shit about a handful of cards coming from the opponent, giving the deck massive card advantage and easy victories. It would be the same in for Goblins.

You guys are close to debating which of these scenarios is going to unfold. It might be as simple as who is on the play.

Bosque

08-11-2016, 11:53 AM

Eldrazi has worldbreaker, maybe something else. I don't see them winning too easily through a Moat. Goblins lose against it.

Goblins lists commonly splashed white for Thalia back in the day. It wouldn't be too crazy to run some other ETB white creatures to deal with enchantments or to run Disenchant or Wear//Tear if it really became an issue.

Finn

08-11-2016, 12:06 PM

Goblins lists commonly splashed white for Thalia back in the day. It wouldn't be too crazy to run some other ETB white creatures to deal with enchantments or to run Disenchant or Wear//Tear if it really became an issue.

Note that I just debunked this strategy in the post right above yours. It does not work agaisnt a deck with counterspells.

Ingo

08-11-2016, 12:12 PM

On the contrary. You should use it to discuss cards, as a good card is either one that cannot be forced, one that does not put you in to much trouble if it gets forced (i.e. low investment), or one that win the game if not forced.
FoW is an important card.

And chalice is exactly such a card, for reasons already stated.

I am not saying that FoW'ing a chalice isn't a good move, especially as chalice implies constrictions in deckbuilding which are painful without chalice. On the other hand, we shouldn't exaggerate the impact of Force vs Chalice, because if it was such an issue, T1 chalice decks (Eldrazi, Aggro Loam) would not have a good matchup versus Miracles. The restriction itself, foregoing on low cc-cards cards (like in Eldrazi) or packing Caverns, or Green Sun's Zenith, ... is actually a bonus versus Miracles, as it's more likely to dodge counterbalance.

Fox

08-11-2016, 12:17 PM

It's important to know if we're talking about a Snow-Covered Mountain Goblins list or not. I have no pity for Goblins list that don't even pretend to feign the much feared Goblin Ski Patrol against Moat.

There was a post earlier about Infect having a good miracles matchup; there's a lot going on there, but the important thing is that a 3cmc spell lacking "cannot be countered" is not good answer to CB/SDT lock - congrats if you won the 'no 3-drop in top 3' coin flip, you didn't make a dumb/smart choice nor did you become worse/better at magic...you flipped a coin.

Zombie

08-11-2016, 12:23 PM

2. A very friggin long time ago, ~DECKNAME~ was able to dominate the game of magic by simply landing ~CARDNAME~ and only giving a shit about a handful of cards coming from the opponent, giving the deck massive card advantage and easy victories.

This sounds familiar.

iatee

08-11-2016, 12:43 PM

We can think of miracles as a deck full of generic answers. That makes miracles very strong against opponents who are looking to win on the back of a small number of high impact cards - in particular, that means that individual sideboard cards are unlikely to have more than a marginally positive impact. That perspective suggests that sideboarding against miracles should be at least as much about what cards you take out as about what cards get put in, and that it's very hard to turn around a poor miracles match-up with sideboard options.

This is a good point, but it's also actually hard to turn around *any* poor matchup with a few sideboard cards. Which goes back to what I said before - if your biggest issue is losing to the best and most played deck in the format, don't show up with a deck that has a bad g1 against it. There are lots of decks that don't.

If you're walking into a wall again and again the solution doesn't need to be 'ban wall', there's also the solution 'stop walking into a wall'.

Are you seriously claiming that Brainstorm + Ponder + SDT + Jace is unreliable to find answers to matchups Miracles is actually favored against?

Again, somehow Miracles players out there seem to not win literally every tournament ever, in fact there are large legacy tournaments without Miracles in the t8 - this despite having Brainstorm, Ponder, SDT and Jace to find every answer in the history of Magic and having a lot of people willingly show up to tournaments with decks that are weak to Miracles.

Lemnear

08-11-2016, 12:45 PM

This sounds familiar.

Lol.

Sidneyious

08-11-2016, 01:06 PM

What? Miracles is the #1 deck at filtering and finding cards in it's library. It's the entire point of the deck. It's why it can run sorceries that are only good when you draw them for the first time on a turn. The whole package enables the deck to find its sideboard cards faster and more consistently than any other deck available.
High tide has more digging ability, more tutoring, can fetch SB cards, and grab win conditions at instant speed.

It just needs lands to build a critical mass, as it is I run 8 counter magic and only a couple times have I spiraled into land and counter magic.

Which I can try to combo again because I have more counterspells.

I'm about to try the countertop package so I can cut down on mb counterspells

Hopo

08-11-2016, 01:39 PM

There was a post earlier about Infect having a good miracles matchup; there's a lot going on there, but the important thing is that a 3cmc spell lacking "cannot be countered" is not good answer to CB/SDT lock - congrats if you won the 'no 3-drop in top 3' coin flip, you didn't make a dumb/smart choice nor did you become worse/better at magic...you flipped a coin.

What are you referring to here? Invigorate? That contributes only to those random fast wins. Majority of the time miracles dies to nexus.

I don't get it. You also state that Krosan Grip is not a good answer to cb/top. Everyone knows that's not true. Sometimes counterbalance gets it but come on, that's not even close to a coinflip.

Fox

08-11-2016, 02:06 PM

Again, somehow Miracles players out there seem to not win literally every tournament ever, in fact there are large legacy tournaments without Miracles in the t8 - this despite having Brainstorm, Ponder, SDT and Jace to find every answer in the history of Magic and having a lot of people willingly show up to tournaments with decks that are weak to Miracles.

You do realize the levels of bastardization of the format caused by the card Counterbalance right? Otherwise irresponsibly constructed decks are slipping through cracks that shouldn't exist and warping the meta game. That card is so oppressive that fair decks maladapting to miracles aren't being told by combo to go back to the drawing board and submit a more correct, competitive list. This is partially hyperbole but: miracles can't beat a standard deck, and it protects poorer deck construction from combo - it can become the victim of it's own success, but you kind of need to ruin the format to hate it out of top 8s.

@Hopo if you watch games of Infect vs miracles and understand how the infect deck operates, you're talking about really bad all-ins or giving them ~double Ancestral draw steps to put a stop to nickel and diming their poison total. Just because it can work, doesn't mean it's good nor desirable to get to this point...it's certainly not interactive in any healthy sense.
Now with K-Grip if someone knows what they're doing and miracles doesn't have 3-4x 3-drops in their top ~5 cards such that they can maintain permanent 3-drops on top through Split Second mechanics and draw steps, K-Grip should work. Just know that even if they have 1x 3-drop in that top 3, you will get next-leveled as they rearrange their top 3 (not moving the 3-drop) and move to draw it passing priority - in this way K-Grip is an unreliable card...and your skill at the game of magic doesn't matter if you chose wrong, and any choice here amounts to a dumb coin flip, albeit a slightly more complex coin. You guess wrong, you lose. You guess right, they have to play real magic for a bit (i.e. use a card from hand to stop a card from opponent's hand). This isn't a fair exchange.

Hopo

08-11-2016, 03:35 PM

@Hopo if you watch games of Infect vs miracles and understand how the infect deck operates, you're talking about really bad all-ins or giving them ~double Ancestral draw steps to put a stop to nickel and diming their poison total. Just because it can work, doesn't mean it's good nor desirable to get to this point...it's certainly not interactive in any healthy sense.
I have quite a good grasp on how the matchup plays out. I still don't understand what you are explaining. It's quite obvious that bad all-ins lose the game but stating the obvious hardly gets you nowhere. Infect plays counters and pump spells of three different CMCs so it's hardly the goldfish

Now with K-Grip if someone knows what they're doing and miracles doesn't have 3-4x 3-drops in their top ~5 cards such that they can maintain permanent 3-drops on top through Split Second mechanics and draw steps, K-Grip should work. Just know that even if they have 1x 3-drop in that top 3, you will get next-leveled as they rearrange their top 3 (not moving the 3-drop) and move to draw it passing priority - in this way K-Grip is an unreliable card...and your skill at the game of magic doesn't matter if you chose wrong, and any choice here amounts to a dumb coin flip, albeit a slightly more complex coin. You guess wrong, you lose. You guess right, they have to play real magic for a bit (i.e. use a card from hand to stop a card from opponent's hand). This isn't a fair exchange.

Trust me, the matchup features lots of mind tricks but you just presented the only one that Grip can't handle like it was always like that. It's not rocket science to test the waters with Brainstorm or something else before launching Grip. Sure, I have lost to the scenario you described but you make it sound like only the miracles player knows how to play magic and it always works out for them ("you will get next-leveled").

Crimhead

08-11-2016, 03:38 PM

Are you seriously claiming that Brainstorm + Ponder + SDT + Jace is unreliable to find answers to matchups Miracles is actually favored against?Almost by definition Miracles can find answers for the decks it's favoured to beat! It has trouble in matches where it's unfavoured (eg, because they don't have time to find the answers or are locked out of deck manipulation).

This has to be the most convincing evidence presented of Miracles' domination: Elves sideboarding Chalice of the Void. 20-plus cards locked out on both sides. Sure, why not?This is evidence that (some) people would rather contort a tier 1.5 pet deck than switch to an actually competetive deck. If anything, this stubborn (and all too common) refusal to meta-gaming properly only serve to enable Miracles' status as the formats top deck.

Miracles is not going to decline because of people tweaking Elves, Deathblade, or any other deck that Miracles naturally preys on.

Oh please. You didn't just quote but BOLDED decks like 12-post and tezz as decks that Moat would be sideboarded against.lmfao! Not a lot of objectivity here sometimes.

Jonathan Alexander

08-11-2016, 03:41 PM

I like that Philipp wrote an article about beating Miracles (even including a decklist that crushes Miracles and has plenty of other good matchups) and people are still complaining about decks X, Y & Z not being able to beat Miracles.

Also, just for the record, Canadian was never bad against Miracles, the matchup has been at least slightly favourable for Canadian until Mentor.

Crimhead

08-11-2016, 04:08 PM

I like that Philipp wrote an article about beating Miracles (even including a decklist that crushes Miracles and has plenty of other good matchups) and people are still complaining about decks X, Y & Z not being able to beat Miracles.
This!

Apart from displaying entitlement, it's not even relevant to the topic.

Maybe somebody should write an article on How To Play Decks That Get Creamed By Miracles So You Can Bitch About The Deck?

Megadeus

08-11-2016, 04:56 PM

Almost by definition Miracles can find answers for the decks it's favoured to beat! It has trouble in matches where it's unfavoured (eg, because they don't have time to find the answers or are locked out of deck manipulation).

This is evidence that (some) people would rather contort a tier 1.5 pet deck than switch to an actually competetive deck. If anything, this stubborn (and all too common) refusal to meta-gaming properly only serve to enable Miracles' status as the formats top deck.

Miracles is not going to decline because of people tweaking Elves, Deathblade, or any other deck that Miracles naturally preys on.

Since when is elves a supposed tier 1.5 pet deck?

dte

08-11-2016, 05:21 PM

Since when is elves a supposed tier 1.5 pet deck?

please, don't feed the troll. When I read that I wanted to answer, my fingers were itching on the keyboard, but I decided not to to avoid the tedious and topic-unrelated discussion.

The same discussion is going on over and over again. Philipp wrote an interesting article, following that some interesting points have been made. If you want to write any of the following:
- miracle is overpowered (or not);
- miracle can adapt to a proposed solution (or cannot);
- any card in miracle does (or doesn't) deserve a ban;
- people should adapt by playing another deck.

Please consider that anybody on the source has probably repeatedly read that already, and restrain yourself.
Or go on the ban topic, or create one named "miracle. Love & hate." or whatever, but do not post here without content, question related to the topic or answers related to question asked, please?