Thalia Stompy

[EunB]

Bobby Birmingham currently on scg feature match 10-2 with FTK version

[Fatal]

Good news for us, any more news how he's going now?


@ChemicalBurns great job !
1) Fair Creatures -> would rather name them utility and beater creatures or utility since non of them are "fair" we use best available cards, not fair :-)
2) To sb options didnt included -> Council's Judgement and ... still in testing but can be our "Cataclysm" in many matchups as 1 or 2 of Austere Command - costly but works very nice. killing all opponent creatures and vial, or Mentor and Tokens with B2B/Moon/CB, but still keeping Smasher/Golem/TKS is mostly a game.


After 10-2 he loses to:
Birmingham, Bobby [US] vs.Lost 0-2 Kassis, Eli,
Birmingham, Bobby [US] vs. Lost 0-2 Stagno, Christopher,
Birmingham, Bobby [US] Lost 0-2 Yu, Jarvis

@Update Bobby Birmingham after 15 round has 30 points.. so 10-5-0.

[EunB]

I think the feature match showcased why Jailer is typically much better than FTK. The 5/6 goyf that won the game would've been handled easily by Jailer, but instead he was stuck with FTK rotting in hand. Also, the inability to cast FTK onto an empty board makes it lose a lot of stock IMO. Monarch drawing him out of his mana-flood in g3 would've also been useful. To a lesser extent, Smuggler's Copter would have also mitigated the g3 flood. To be fair, though, the Hymn sniping his two best cards was also a factor. Tough beats and tougher that he didn't win another match after the great 10-2 start. Hopefully he knows about this thread and will share his experience.

edit: unrelated, but has anyone tested out Sea-Gate Wreckage at all? I had it as a 1-of for a while in testing but never actually drew it and cut it for a City when I upped my curve.

[MD.Ghost]

I think the feature match showcased why Jailer is typically much better than FTK. The 5/6 goyf that won the game would've been handled easily by Jailer, but instead he was stuck with FTK rotting in hand. Also, the inability to cast FTK onto an empty board makes it lose a lot of stock IMO. Monarch drawing him out of his mana-flood in g3 would've also been useful. To a lesser extent, Smuggler's Copter would have also mitigated the g3 flood. To be fair, though, the Hymn sniping his two best cards was also a factor. Tough beats and tougher that he didn't win another match after the great 10-2 start. Hopefully he knows about this thread and will share his experience.

Right! 10:2 might sound nice, but the Kavu plan is terrible... no need to implement that tech in current decklist since Palace Jailer is much stronger in most cases, doesnt need a splash, easier to protect with cavern and the biggest upside: solves the issue with big creatures like gofy, angler, smasher etc. Kavu has no advantage vs Shardless and we play Eldrazi & Taxes because we wan't a better Shardless Matchup than colorless Eldrazi etc.

I watched the stream and it showed clearly why Kavu is bad - on another Side his Sideboard was also really bad. Entering a big tournament without a way to fight Moat (see Miracle Top8) or stuff like Ensnaring Bridge sounds not right. Bobbys Sideboard was overloaded with answers vs creatures (and in this case it was not build solid since Kavu can't shot down Gofy etc.) at my opinion he constructed the side really bad and after so many rounds you will also see some hard matchups and unlucky situations.

As i mentioned a lot, if you really want to play WR than it should be 1-2 Nahiri at your 75 pile of cards. Overall staying mono white is the more solid option and also leads to various builds.

@ChemicalBurns: Great Primer! Thanks :cool:

EDIT: My current list:

Creatures: (24)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Containment Priest
2 Palace Jailer
2 Reality Smasher

Non-Creature Spells: (11)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Lands: (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
6 Plains
1 City of Traitors

Sideboard: (15)
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rest in Peace
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Batterskull

currently testing Containment Priest Main and Stoneforge Side

EDIT 2nd:

List performed solid enough so far. Against Miracle i switched -2 C.Priest, -1 City, -1 Mox for +2 Disenchant, +1 Elspeth, +1 Batterskull This way you have some more powerfull mid-lategame cards, answers for Moat and still maindeck answers like Jitte and Jailer for any Mentor-Stuff. I prefer Elspeth over Gideon because you get a) instant push if you have a creature on the field b) the ability to fly over Moat or Mentor Army // Gideon have better tokens, but the turn he enters the field he does nothing besides that (it is not common to use his -ability in most cases) and still can't fight Moat which is one of Miracles superior Answers vs Eldrazi and creature based decks like this. Batterskull was ok, besides Wear//Tear it is hard to remove and able to comeback on its own or push smaller stuff like Thalia, Revoker on the field. Batterskull performed also very well vs Colorless Eldrazi because it is big enough and able to equip one of your creatures to a gigantic vigilance attacker/blocker. One testgame i got one 8/8 TKS and paired with lifelink and vigilance it was a nightmare for my opponent.

[DisgruntledElk]

Good evening everyone!

The primer put together looks great! While I have been away for months due to work and such (got a bit burned out), I am coming back to the game and running leagues on MODO to test for the upcoming GP. I will be testing fairly extensively the old faithful version I have with 4 THC, 3 TGoT, and 4 Lodestone with 4 City of Traitors/3 Eldrazi Temple split. I'll definitely keep everyone up to date, but I am just excited to be playing again!

[pocari79]

Went 4-2 yesterday at a local tournament was kind of disappointing. Played the same cards in the maindeck as I posted before in my previous posts, changed the sideboard to this:

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 SERENITY
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Trinisphere

I decided to try out the Serenity as it feels like there is a big uptick on hate cards like Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Ghostly Prison, Humility, etc and if the opponent ever gets multiple copies in play, Disenchant isn't going to save you. I was thinking about Devout Witness as well but that requires it to live until your next turn and then you can only blow up one thing a turn so it might not be enough to save you.

Won against D&T, 4c Loam, Mentor Miracles, ANT and lost against Belcher, Entreat Miracles.

Things I took away from this tournament:
- I was able to kill 16 goblin tokens with a Pontiff. Hooray!
- Revoker can name Elvish and Simian Spirit Guides. I don't think it's something that most people think about but it saved me game 2 against belcher.
- I did board in both Disenchants and Serenities against Entreat Miracles thinking he had Moat as his sideboard card and was correct to do so, but then realized that having my anti-hate cards both at 2cc against a deck playing Counterbalance and Top is fairly bad. Maybe the Disenchants need to become something like Dismantling Blows? (yeah i know it sounds real awful. Why does K Grip have to be in green!?!?)
- I am considering Elspeth, Knight-Errant is another card to be a proactive card to fight against Moat. It's not 2cc and the ability to make your guys fly means you can still play your creatures into a Moat and when the Elspeth resolves, you'll have high powered attackers ready to go.
- I'm also considering Endbringers in the sideboard as well. The pinging is relevant against mentors and the ability to prevent creatures to attack or block is relevant against other decks as well. Only drawback is that 6cc might be too high.

It could be that I am over-reacting a bit on this and we don't need to change our sideboard that much, but I think it's something worth thinking about as Miracles felt like it was a really good matchup just a few weeks ago and now it's like a 50/50 matchup....

[tarmogoat]

Hi,

I'm a D&T player, also trying to build this version of the deck as well to try out in my meta because it looks just so sweet. I was thinking of something along these lines:

Sweet stuff:
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2x Vryn Wingmare
2x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Sanctum Prelate
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Flametongue Kavu
2x Reality Smasher
1x Batterskull

Lands:
2x Karakas
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Eldrazi Temple
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland
5x Plains
4x Battlefield Forge

Sideboard:
2x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sanctum Prelate
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Dismember
1x Flametongue Kavu

In my meta I expect 1-3 Reanimator (Classic/TinFins), 1-3 Miracles, 1-3 Eldrazi, 2-3 BUG (shardless / delver), 2-4 Storm (ANT/TES), 2-3 D&T, 1-4 S&T (Omnitell/Sneak&Show), 1-2 Elves, 1-3 Lands, 1-2 Maverick, 1-2 Merfolk, 1-2 Deathblade, 1-3 Grixis Delver, 1-2 All in Red (Sneak Attack), 1-2 Aluren, 1-2, Dredge (LED/Manaless), and some other random stuff.

Is this build adequate? Any thoughts or advice to share with a Thalia Stompy (or Eldrazi&Taxes) newbie?

[Sisyphos]

Is this build adequate? Any thoughts or advice to share with a Thalia Stompy (or Eldrazi&Taxes) newbie?

1. Cut the red splash and play Palace Jailer instead of Flametongue Kavu. Jailer does everything Kavu does but better and instead of being dead against stuff like Miracles is acutally really really good there as it provides a form of card advantage they can rarely (if ever) interact with, all while smoothing out your mana base.

2. Do not play Batterskull without Stoneforge. Yes the deck does play some mana acceleration, but it does not play as much mana acceleration as the decks that can realistically play Batterskull without Stoneforge (Mono-Red Sneak or MUD come to mind). Without Stoneforge Batterskull in this shell will be very very slow, especially if you consider that you will have a Thalia in play to make it even more expensive. This problem is made even larger in your list as you have included Wingmare as well. Batterskull is exceptionally subpar if you have to pay 6 or 7 mana for it. Without a way to tutor for it, it is also simply too random to have a significant impact on your game plan.

3. Four Revoker is probably too many. You can free up 1-2 slots here.

4. I would strongly urge you to try out Eldrazi Displacer. It dominates any matchup against "fair decks" like Maverick, Loam, DnT. It is also a relevant piece of interaction against decks that try to cheat fatties into play like Reanimator or Sneak&Show in addition to providing the opportunity to abuse the comes into play effects of your creatures or simply countering a removal spell. DnT does not play it as it is another three drop and very mana intensive which does not mash well with the Rishadan Port plan of the deck. This deck does not have other mana sinks for the late game and with Eldrazi Temple (which you should play 4of btw) it can be easily used multiple times each turn.

5. Recent testing has made me very partial to running a split between Diamonds and Petals instead of one over the other. Drawing multiple Diamonds can be rough, but drawing too many Petals isn't good either, as the deck does not want only one-shot-acceleration but the ability to drop a threat turn after turn.

6. Try to include an answer to stuff like Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Blood Moon and Back to Basics in your sideboard. Disenchant does look bad on paper, but only until you play against one of these cards and realize that you are basically just dead on board, especially against Bridge or Moat. DnT does play incidental answers like Flickerwhisp that this deck does not have, so you need to look elsewhere.

[MD.Ghost]

@pocari79

Serenity - why? Killing your own Chalice, Mox and/or Jitte sounds really bad - especially because all 3 of them are solid vs Miracle (you mentioned Blood Moon, Moat, Back to Basics).

Disenchant is really good, i would play 2 copies every time but if you wan't more stuff like this you can also think about:

Seal of Cleansing (better vs Omnitell, can be better if you play Thalia/Thorn after it or your W-Mana is gone, weak vs Wear//Tear or EE)

Aura of Silence (1WW not so easy but can slow down Artifact and enchantment from your opponent, especially with Thalia(s)&Waste etc.)

Mangara of Corondor (needs one turn, but better than Witness because: Combo with Displacer+Karakas and works well against all permanents and can be uncounterable with Cavern)

War Priest of Thune (sadly will not work vs Bridge but should be solid vs Miracle since it can be a combo with Displacer and is counterproof with Cavern)

Austere Command (really expensive but can clear the field pretty well against more than one nasty permanent and maybe some of your cards survive to beat the opponent to death)

EDIT: Council's Judgment like Aura of Silence and Planeswalker harder to cast with WW-Mana but can hit anything including nasty stuff like Planeswalker, big creatures or hard to remove cards like TNN. Catch all card.

Or you can look for planeswalker cards if you need more flexible answers. Elspeth, Knight-Errant works well against Moat and i run her in my current build.

I would at least recommend 3 cards vs Moat&Co (for me 2 Disenchant, 1 Elspeth), together with TKS (and you can flicker with Displacer to manage sorcery-speed draws like Moat) and Manadenial from Thalia(s) Waste you should be able to win against that stuff in most cases. It gets even better if you include some flying creatures like Vryn Wingmare, Smuggler’s Copter, Skysovereign, Consul Flagship or Aven Mindcensor.

R-Splash offers Nahiri and Pia and Kiran Nalaar // B-Splash offers Kaya, Ghost Assassin // G-Splash has Reclamation Sage = all will work against prison elements from your opponents, but as i listed above Mono White has more than enough tools to deal with that situations too.

------------

@tarmogoat

I agree with everthing Sisyphos posted - read the primer and follow up our discussion over all the cards and include Eldrazi Displacer (all 4!), some Palace Jailer (can we stop the bad Kavu idea, please) and build a sideboard with an answer to Moat/Moon/Bridge etc (which means, be prepared for stupid hate cards and punish opponents who wasted sideboard slots with that stuff)

[pocari79]

@pocari79

Serenity - why? Killing your own Chalice, Mox and/or Jitte sounds really bad - especially because all 3 of them are solid vs Miracle (you mentioned Blood Moon, Moat, Back to Basics).



Against Miracles, I am already cutting at least 1-2 Mox Diamond after sideboard depending on what their build is and I would cut the Jitte as well if they are not playing Mentors. Sure it sucks to kill your own Chalice but I've found that my Chalices don't stick very often anymore against Miracles as the ones I play against all play multiple Engineered Explosives (some in the maindeck even) and Wear//Tears. So the chances of blowing up my own Chalice with Serenity is fairly low with how often Chalice gets blown up these days.

Also, Serenity is able to blow up all the hate cards your opponent have played and also delays them from playing another hate card while Serenity is in play. I like having Disenchant, but it does very little when you are facing down an Ensnaring Bridge/Moat and a Blood Moon at the same time.

[MD.Ghost]

Against Miracles, I am already cutting at least 1-2 Mox Diamond after sideboard depending on what their build is and I would cut the Jitte as well if they are not playing Mentors. Sure it sucks to kill your own Chalice but I've found that my Chalices don't stick very often anymore against Miracles as the ones I play against all play multiple Engineered Explosives (some in the maindeck even) and Wear//Tears. So the chances of blowing up my own Chalice with Serenity is fairly low with how often Chalice gets blown up these days.

Also, Serenity is able to blow up all the hate cards your opponent have played and also delays them from playing another hate card while Serenity is in play. I like having Disenchant, but it does very little when you are facing down an Ensnaring Bridge/Moat and a Blood Moon at the same time.

Jitte itself is really good against miracle, because you can also pump up Thalia 1.0, Revoker or kill Mentor, Clique, Snapcaster (Stoneforge, Venser = every creature besides Keranos, Baneslayer) - and Mentor is a very common card in most miracle lists, at least as a sideboard option. I would only board out Jitte if i face a Miracle Deck with Helm, RiP, Energy Field etc.

I would avoid >2:1 trades with miracle, since we also suffer from Snapcaster+Sword, Terminus, EE etc. lose Serenity to Wear//Tear which aims at Chalice is a hard trade, EE that kills Serenity+Thalia/Revoker/Jitte is also bad etc. If you face Moat + Blood Moon we talk about turn 4+ which means you should also be able to get mana online, which also means most answer above cc2 should be castable. Moon itself isn't a problem with 6+ basics and Mox (that's why i only cut 1 vs Miracle) - we are not Eldrazi and even against Eldrazi the Miracle player need another nasty card like Mentor, or a combination of Terminus and Jace to seal the deal under Moon. Sure Moon stops 8-10 cards from our deck, but all the White Stuff (which includes Hate/Answers) should be castable, Equipment works also well under Moon.

Moat is another story, but as i said you should have at least 3+ against Moat itself, more are better but i think cards like Thalia(s) and TKS also helps to get a window before someones finds the 1off Moat. Bridge isn't common for Miracle, but hell if someone hates Eldrazi or we talk about the MODO Meta than Bridge can be a card - same as above: be prepared and have answers for it. I mentioned a lot of cards (even Splashes) that should be perform better than Serenity in most cases.

It is not ok to blow up your own stuff with the argument that your opponent will also do that - it is a different story and also a reason why i would avoid any Ratchet Bomb or All is Dust here (both common cards for colorless Eldrazi). If your Meta is full with Miracle decks that slam Moat, Moon etc. you can also run cards like Tempest of Light. Serenity buys your opponent at least one turn to either find an answer to Serenity (or your Creatures) or to build up another defense line if moat should be destroyed the following turn. If you also face a lot of Painter Combo decks: Than yes Serenity might be ok (see all the artifact/enchantment stuff they play) but it can also be blasted away with Painter in Play). The only upside is, nobody knew your tech so you might be catch someone off guard with Serenity.

[tarmogoat]

1. Cut the red splash and play Palace Jailer instead of Flametongue Kavu. Jailer does everything Kavu does but better and instead of being dead against stuff like Miracles is acutally really really good there as it provides a form of card advantage they can rarely (if ever) interact with, all while smoothing out your mana base.

2. Do not play Batterskull without Stoneforge. Yes the deck does play some mana acceleration, but it does not play as much mana acceleration as the decks that can realistically play Batterskull without Stoneforge (Mono-Red Sneak or MUD come to mind). Without Stoneforge Batterskull in this shell will be very very slow, especially if you consider that you will have a Thalia in play to make it even more expensive. This problem is made even larger in your list as you have included Wingmare as well. Batterskull is exceptionally subpar if you have to pay 6 or 7 mana for it. Without a way to tutor for it, it is also simply too random to have a significant impact on your game plan.

3. Four Revoker is probably too many. You can free up 1-2 slots here.

4. I would strongly urge you to try out Eldrazi Displacer. It dominates any matchup against "fair decks" like Maverick, Loam, DnT. It is also a relevant piece of interaction against decks that try to cheat fatties into play like Reanimator or Sneak&Show in addition to providing the opportunity to abuse the comes into play effects of your creatures or simply countering a removal spell. DnT does not play it as it is another three drop and very mana intensive which does not mash well with the Rishadan Port plan of the deck. This deck does not have other mana sinks for the late game and with Eldrazi Temple (which you should play 4of btw) it can be easily used multiple times each turn.

5. Recent testing has made me very partial to running a split between Diamonds and Petals instead of one over the other. Drawing multiple Diamonds can be rough, but drawing too many Petals isn't good either, as the deck does not want only one-shot-acceleration but the ability to drop a threat turn after turn.

6. Try to include an answer to stuff like Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Blood Moon and Back to Basics in your sideboard. Disenchant does look bad on paper, but only until you play against one of these cards and realize that you are basically just dead on board, especially against Bridge or Moat. DnT does play incidental answers like Flickerwhisp that this deck does not have, so you need to look elsewhere.


@tarmogoat

I agree with everthing Sisyphos posted - read the primer and follow up our discussion over all the cards and include Eldrazi Displacer (all 4!), some Palace Jailer (can we stop the bad Kavu idea, please) and build a sideboard with an answer to Moat/Moon/Bridge etc (which means, be prepared for stupid hate cards and punish opponents who wasted sideboard slots with that stuff)

Ok, it seems like I arrived late to the Kavu party (or it was over before it started). Anyway, read through your comments and through the primer and decided to adjust accordingly:

4x Lotus Petal
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3x Vryn Wingmare
4x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Sanctum Prelate
2x Palace Jailer
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Reality Smasher
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Wasteland
4x Cavern of Souls
2x Karakas
7x Plains

2x Pithing Needle
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Rest in Peace
2x Disenchant
2x Council's Judgment
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Dismember


Cut the BSkull, the Kavu (red altogether) and freed up some slots for Displacer and a. Also tuned the SB to have 4 answers to Enchantment/Artifact hose in 2 Disenchant + 2 Council's Judgment (which is a great answer to PWs and TNNs and other pesky stuff).
I don't own any Mox Diamonds, so Lotus Petals will do for now.

[MD.Ghost]

Entered a small local tournament yesterday. Missed a perfect run with my last matchup, faced the following decks:

2:0 vs UB Tezzerator
2:0 vs ANT
2:0 vs Mono Red Sneak Attack
1:2 vs DnT

Finally only 3rd - but overall good enough, since i my last tournament was months ago (see my 2nd place brew with Splicer+Lodestone) and i had only a small amount of testgames with my current build (see above).

Some Notes:

-Against Tezzerator it was very difficult to fight through a lot of hate! 2nd Game i was locked down under Bridge + Meekstone but was able to displace TKS to get rid of The Abyss and Damnation in his hand, Strix was handled with Palace Jailer (don't waste Disenchant here) and i slowly grind it out.
-If you have active Jitte like me you can use -1/-1 counters on your own creatures to avoid Meekstone and/or Bridge, overall matchup was very tricky
-Against Mono Red Sneak Attack i faced T1-2 Moon every game, but had enough Plains/Mox so it doesn't matter (hey it's not colorless Eldrazi^^), Game 1 i managed to get Containment Priest online (Maindeck!) which won me the game pretty much alone
-Game 2 i faced 2 pyroclasms that killed thalia(s), priest, etc. but i had still enough gas (even under moon) and got a palace jailer on an empty field to get monarch, he killed Jailer with hardcast inferno titan but i had my 2nd Jailer in hand, i beat him down slowly and drawing one more card each turn was way to good
-Against DnT all games were really intense, won G1 after a hard battle with Smasher and Jailer, G2 i was on the victory route with Jitte but he found a 2nd Revoker, Removal and finally Gideon and i was unable to find relevant cards. G3 after mull to 6, i started with first turn Thalia 2.0, he has a Swords for her, i followed up with Stoneforge for Batterskull without a 2nd land drop (only Tomb+Mox in play), he has wasteland, i see no land the following turn and after that i still tried to put up a fight but was overall short on mana (facing port) and he drew all right cards (especially 1offs) and game went like: i play Elspeth, he has Needle, i play TKS exile his Swords he draws another Swords + Wasteland after TKS was exiled etc. Audience laughed about the draws so this game was more or less unwinable for me
-i sadly saw no Pontiff vs DnT in both post board games and he would be very good in certain situations thanks to all the X/1 creatures from DnT
-Palace Jailer was one of the best card, i never lost with him, against DnT G3 a 3rd Jailer at Side over Elspeth would be better but i still think that Elspeth vs Miracle is the right card unless you play more than 3 disenchant-effects to battle moat etc.
-the first 8 games i was only on the draw (...)

--------

EDIT:

Lurking around at Soldier-Stompy i have found Parallax Wave as a tech. Should we discuss it? Yeah manawise costly but can be really bonkers for alpha strike or some EtB triggers with your own creatures, it should also work nice with Thalia 2.0 and Containment Priest etc.

[Fatal]

Parallax Wave is really good card for:
1) Saving your creatures against removal
2) Temporary removing creatures on opponent side

With Priest on battlefield it loses 1) and replace 2) Temporary to permanently, Thalia gives can't block after Wave goes off.

Let sum up which creatures get value (EtB trigger) from Wave:
1) TKS / not great but still value
2) Palace Jailer - probably compete for the same slot with Wave
3) Blade Splicer - not core
4) SFM - not core

In sum up we don't get too many advantages in etb triggers, so it's mostly a tempo card with option to CA - like Jailer.

Tested many times Parallax Wave in Maverick (even with tricks with Pridemage to removing creatures for good), Jailer is still testing, but it shows great value. The worst part with Wave is getting Terminus in response to Wave on stack. So you don't have any creatures on board after it resolve since it's 4 cmc, to gain advantage from it you need a creature which you want to protect, so overlay 1) is quite narrow if you resolve creatures before Wave, after it's sometimes to late. Jailer has factor of constant Howling Mine effect so even if opponent wipe all table you still get value.

Also important difference between them - Jailer - Human vs Parallax Wave Enchantment, since miracles also side in artifact removal (vs Chalice) you can get screwed by well timed enchantment/artifact removal to Wave - in response to saving your creatures, so they will be exiled for ever.

For sure Parallax Wave is more explosive advantage in fair midrange matchups - removing half blockers/attackers for 2-3 turns means mostly a win, Jailer is more risky in those matchups, and can be double-edge sword.

I would try a split 2 Jailers / 1 Parallax Wave on blind meta - if your meta full of miracles I would go 3 Jailers, if your meta full of Shardless/D & T I would go 1 Jailer / 2 Waves.

Note - Wave can be Needled/Revokered.

Question:
How was Vryn Wingmare in testing ?

[Medea_]

Hey folks, I don't always check in here regularly, but I wrote an article (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=627) about the archetype.

[mackiefloyd]

Hey all,

I'm a death and taxes player that has been brewing up a similar concept and just stumbled upon this thread. I didn't realize this deck was thing! I just got myself up to speed and wanted to share my current brew, as it's a bit different than the eldrazi style lists posted here. I used to dabble in angel prison, so my initial idea was to cram thalias and prelates into that shell. I also borrowed some of the soldier stompy concepts. It's untested, but in theory it helps solve the moat/lack of fliers problem that is being discussed. I also think the mana is quite a bit better but the deck is probably less explosive as a result. I call the list Debtor's Prison, an ode to the taxing nature of the deck.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
1 Trinisphere

3 Baneslayer Angel
2 Palace Jailer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Restoration Angel
3 Sanctum Prelate
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

4 Suppression Field

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
8 Plains
4 Wasteland

2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Giddeon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Crackdown
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment

[Fatal]

Not bad but TKS and Smasher is probably too good to be omitted - it gives decent clock, if you can end game in few turns it's much better then turn 4-5 Angel which mostly can be countered (I assume you name Human on Cavern to resolve early threads), TKS clean the way to Smasher which is much better trade for point removal, also Eldrazi Displacer is just pure advantage if not handled in-time.

I tested Parallax Wave as 1-of and won me a game against Grixs facing delver + Pyro + shaman and 3 tokens. I won a race with only TKS :).

My actually build


3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
2 Lodestone Golem
3 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mox Diamond
3 Blade Splicer
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
6 Plains
1 Batterskull
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Palace Jailer
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 3 Blessed Alliance
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Austere Command
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Parallax Wave


I'm still using Splicer and Golems since it's 3 cmc cost and additonal hate vs combo, it's also gold vs Beful Strix which are very popular nowadays.

Overview SB:
6 answers to artifact/enchant + additional equip hate (D&T is like 30% of my matchups o_0 -if it will be below 20% will be replace for Priest probably or some fast combo answer like Trap / Fearie Macabre)
6 answers to TNN
5 cheap conditional removal
2 Hard removal
2 Mass removal
2 Sorcery counters
2 Gy hate and goyf shrink

Good MU after SB - D&T, Tempo, artifact based.
Still not great MU - BR Reanimator (hype is so strong :-)), Belcher on draw - didnt met Belcher since about few months.
Still looking for slots to add some Pralate

[MD.Ghost]

Hey folks, I don't always check in here regularly, but I wrote an article (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=627) about the archetype.

-don't run Kavu anymore, the idea was cute for a moment but i would run even Shriekmaw over it but both are weak compared to Palace Jailer! I mentioned it a lot the last weeks and hope we can get rid of the bad tech - this deck should be perform way better if we can focus on proven cards/lists


Hey all,

I'm a death and taxes player that has been brewing up a similar concept and just stumbled upon this thread. I didn't realize this deck was thing! I just got myself up to speed and wanted to share my current brew, as it's a bit different than the eldrazi style lists posted here. I used to dabble in angel prison, so my initial idea was to cram thalias and prelates into that shell. I also borrowed some of the soldier stompy concepts. It's untested, but in theory it helps solve the moat/lack of fliers problem that is being discussed. I also think the mana is quite a bit better but the deck is probably less explosive as a result. I call the list Debtor's Prison, an ode to the taxing nature of the deck.

As Fatal already mentioned, your list isn't strong enough because you are way slower without the Eldrazi and Eldrazi-Sollands. The brew contains some strong elements but overall i feel you miss speed for the right moments and will durdle around with Recruiter and waiting for the mana with Baneslayer. Overall without Eldrazi it is more or less only a White-Stompy build with some Prison Elements and nasty creatures like Thalia(s).



I tested Parallax Wave as 1-of and won me a game against Grixs facing delver + Pyro + shaman and 3 tokens. I won a race with only TKS :).

I'm still using Splicer and Golems since it's 3 cmc cost and additonal hate vs combo, it's also gold vs Beful Strix which are very popular nowadays.

Overview SB:
6 answers to artifact/enchant + additional equip hate (D&T is like 30% of my matchups o_0 -if it will be below 20% will be replace for Priest probably or some fast combo answer like Trap / Fearie Macabre)
6 answers to TNN
5 cheap conditional removal
2 Hard removal
2 Mass removal
2 Sorcery counters
2 Gy hate and goyf shrink

Good MU after SB - D&T, Tempo, artifact based.
Still not great MU - BR Reanimator (hype is so strong :-)), Belcher on draw - didnt met Belcher since about few months.
Still looking for slots to add some Pralate

Nice to see you still slamming our old brews with Lodestone + Splicer! I moved away from it, but it still contains some strong elements. With Lodestone the 3rd Smasher seems greedy as hell, but i can see the list gains some momentum.

EDIT: And yes Wave with Splicer + Stoneforge seems a nice idea!

Your mainboard is full of creatures without any spells, on the other side your side contains only spell solutions so it seems your postboard games are more grindy with all the spells. That's why i currently like Stoneforge, Pontiff (and Elspeth, since she is a permanent win con) at my side, because they act as a creature and as a solution. In case of Warping Wail: this spell is more or less never dead and at my opinion strong enough for maindeck since it will be alive against most decks - which means - if a card is strong enough that you switch it most postboard games it clearly shows that this card is "maindeck material" and not a specific answer for some matchups. For me that was the reason to move away from Lodestone since i moved him out most postboard games for other cards against non combo matchups.

How good was Austere Command?

How good was Council's Judgment?

EDIT:

BR Reanimator: I think you can't beat all decks with the same 75 often enough. For me the matchups is fine, because i already have 2x C.Priest main (which was also huge against Mono R Sneak at my last tournament) and run the 4th Thalia over any Lodestone (in case of speed, T1-2 Thalia seems more realistic than T2 Lodestone and BR Reanimator is blazing fast) Warping Wail is another Weapon, or at least a possibility if you start with Tomb but without Chalice&Co (not perfect but still enough relevant Sorceries to counter, at least you can ramp your T2 if nothing happens T1), Revoker against Grisel can still buy time (for Displacer/Karakas/Jailer) and 2x Thorn at side worked well for me since the beginning. The only downside is a hexproof/shroud beater for me since i currently run no Blessed Alliance or Judgment) but they aren't able to get this 1off creature every time and tend to go with other fatties in most game 1 situations since our deck is also very uncommon (which means they will not know all cards/tricks). Overall your maindeck and side seems better prepared to fight "fair" creature decks (you aim for DnT etc.) and control decks (a lot solutions vs miracle stuff like Moat/Bridge etc.) so a blazing fast combo deck like BR Reanimate OR Belcher can be a harder matchup.

For Belcher you need a way to fight tokens since Empty is the more common kill for them (it is also a burning wish target, which means 3 Empty main + 4 wishes against "only" 4 belchers) so again without a fast sweeper turn 2-3 you can be dead. If you are lucky a fast stoneforge into batterskull can work against Empty as well. Lodestone itself might be to slow (and will not work vs Petal/LED/Belcher). Again i have access to Thorn (but yes it needs to come down T1), Stoneforge and Pontiff (Token) in this matchup (and revoker for Belcher as well). Other Players have Prelate which - set on "4" - also wins since both Belcher and Empty are cc4, only downside: Prelate can be too slow here with cc3 and WW requirement (she is better vs ANT/Show&Tell which are a little bit slower in most cases).

A slot for 3rd Jailer? As you mentioned: Wave has the same cc and sideboard place, so either Wave or Command at your side.

[ChemicalBurns]

Some MODO 5-0s everyone:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/513212#online
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/512898#online

Notable things:
- One list is running quad Rishadan Port over Cavern.
- Other is interestingly running a mix of Petal and Diamonds.
- SFM in the main of both (likely due to needing to fill space w/o the Conspiracy 2 cards).
- StP in the sideboards of both.
- All Is Dust as asweeper option, which is... Interesting. And kind of ambitious.

I've also gone kind of off the deep end recently and have been trialling a heavy red splash version cutting Eldrazi (heresy, I know) for more absurd t1 or t2 plays. Makes the deck much more high-variance in a Dragon Stompy kind of style, and is probably an archetype tangential to what is featured in this thread, but here it is for posterity anyway:

Creature: (28)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Palace Jailer
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Non-Creature Spells: (10)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
2 Dismember
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands: (22)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plateau
2 Plains

Sideboard: (15)
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sudden Demise
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manic Vandal
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Batterskull

Takes a lot of ideas from what Medea has been recently featuring, but also concurrent to what is in the current Chalice versions. As I said, maybe not better than the Eldrazi version (TKS is a messed up card) but certainly is an interesting project. I'll be trialling it soon. Maybe get some Nahiri action in here or something. FTK lives on, etc.

EDIT: Primer updated btw, with recent additions/better formatting. Dice_Box can we make this the OP or something here/somewhere?

[EunB]

I like the sideboard Leyline of the Void and have been considering similar over RIP to combat the rise in Reanimator. I was also considering Faerie Macabre. I think the deck can hold its own against Shardless so doesn't absolutely need RIP, and they can just decay it anyway. Even on the play mox + RIP isn't always good enough due to Chancellor, so I think turn 0 hate is a necessity even if we can't cast it (reliably, without 2 moxes).

[Fatal]

@EnuB is right - if your local meta rise BR reanimator just bring in leyline of the void, muligan hard to it and win is yours (but look out for Sneak Attack / S&T SB). It's similar like manaless dredge - both decks can be defeat by 4 cards. I'm not a fan of Leyline but it's probably best solution vs them, other option is fearie macabre which is dedicated uncounterable hate aim vs reanimator. You need it only if your meta rise the number of BR / standard reanimator, as I said I'm not a fan of it. I would rather try even mind break trap since it's more flexible - can work also vs storm and belcher style decks.

It's all dependent on meta prediction. If you see many BR reanimator maybe it's worth - if not I wouldn't bring it in - I would rather go mindbreak trap since without fast mana you can act turn 0, and mostly BR reanimator needed mana, discard/enabler, reanimation - which mean 3 spells - note there are 2 scenerio which will be blind by their draws:
- scenerio w SSG + looting + reanimate
and scenerio with Dark + Collective Brutality (which would discard your trap + reanimate.

Both scenerio is turn 0, so if opponent draw them you will lose even with trap in hand. Fearie & LotV will gives you defense vs them, but with cost of 4 sideboard slots, and probably much more muligans. It doesn't bring instant win like vs manaless dredge - they still have moons and sneak attack which can give them Grisel + draw which gives him enough gas to kill you, that's the reason I don't like LotV route. I would rather have more universal answer and wish they don't draw perfect scenerio (it's not so common).

RiP helps a lot also vs Aggro Loam which isn't easy, and R/G lands. with recurring wasteland it's also though.

[Cyborg]

fearie macabre which is dedicated uncounterable hate aim vs reanimator.
stifle op not that any reanimator is running it in legacy.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Pithing Needle can hit Faerie Macabre, just fyi.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[EunB]

Are people still testing the Lodestone/Splicer build? I've been slowly pivoting away from my previous opinion of Prelate, it just seems like there's too many low-impact creatures in the deck which seems antithetical to our "stompy" origins.

In particular, Thalia 1.0, Revoker, and Prelate are good when you're ahead, but bad when behind. Our deck can't tax mana as well as D&T so Thalia 1.0 is basically just great vs combo and mediocre vs everything else. Revoker has its uses, but again gets outclassed so quickly. Prelate is obviously a good card, but it taxes our mana and we already play Chalice so it's a redundant effect. It's hard to play a "stompy" deck when you open thalia, revoker, prelate, and some other low-impact cards when all you really want to see is beaters.

I'm currently testing builds with more fast mana in the form of 3 city of traitors to power out splicers and lodestone golems. I added 1 crucible main to help with the CoT problem and to complement the 4 wasteland in the deck which I always thought were underutilized without Thalia 2.0. Crucible main necessitates Leyline in the SB, which as we discussed earlier might be the right direction anyway. Crucible also has synergies with Copter -- notably Splicer does as well, allowing you to curve out nicely.

edit: some more thoughts after some online testing

Crucible has been ok but not amazing. Lived the dream of Crucible + Wasteland + THC vs miracles locking them out of even fetching for basics. I think it helps our already good matchups like 12-post/miracles/MUD etc while being blank vs difficult MUs like delver. I think if we're Crucible Wasting delver we've already won since they have no pressure. I think I'll keep it in just because of the work it can do vs Eldrazi and Shardless.

Splicer has been ok. T1 copter t2 splicer feels great. Golem has been mediocre, despite the additional sol lands. It's just never beefy enough. Smasher is just too good, which leads me to the next question -- is 4 Thalia 1.0 and 4 Chalice enough vs combo?

I don't know. I feel at an impasse -- my core right now is:

2 Copter
4 Chalice
2 Jailer
6-8 Thalias
4 TKS
4 Displacer
3 Diamond
25 Land

Which leaves about 8-10 slots. Jitte, Dismember, Warping Wail, Containment Priest, Prelate, Revoker, SFM, Splicer, Golem, Smasher -- all decent options. I've been a hater of SFM in this deck, but maybe that's the final piece of the puzzle I'm missing. Thoughts?

[hofzge]

Splicer has been ok. T1 copter t2 splicer feels great. Golem has been mediocre, despite the additional sol lands. It's just never beefy enough. Smasher is just too good, which leads me to the next question -- is 4 Thalia 1.0 and 4 Chalice enough vs combo?


This is what I felt - The Lodestone Golem is not enough to make you forget the Smasher - Also sometimes Golem really stands in the way as he makes nearly everything more expensive.



I don't know. I feel at an impasse -- my core right now is:

2 Copter
4 Chalice
2 Jailer
6-8 Thalias
4 TKS
4 Displacer
3 Diamond
25 Land

Which leaves about 8-10 slots. Jitte, Dismember, Warping Wail, Containment Priest, Prelate, Revoker, SFM, Splicer, Golem, Smasher -- all decent options. I've been a hater of SFM in this deck, but maybe that's the final piece of the puzzle I'm missing. Thoughts?

I am happy you see Copter and Jailer as core cards - in Copter's case I immediately felt this way. Unfortunately this makes the need for a 2-3 drop even bigger.

I hate SFM, but we might need a cheap dude of some sort and Revoker it is not.
Revoker was always the card I took out when I freed slots. It could be that with the advent of Reanimator 1-2 Priests could be main, or simply the Splicer without the Lodestone... I wish we had something like Preeminent Captain...

[hofzge]

1-3 at the LGS...

Not the greatest day - Lost against Miracles, Manaless Dredge and RUG Delver; Won against Tin Fins

Miracles was hard and I think my sideboard was bad - I think Armageddon or Planeswalkers are in order.
MAnaless Dredge was totally unwinnable as I never drew RiP or Containment Priest and should have mulled further.
The game against RUG felt winnable, but he had 2 very good hands and I resolved 3 spells in 2 games...
Won against TinFins on a Mull to 5 by resolving Thalia2 on turn 2...

I will change the Dismembers into Warping Wails and change the sideboard a little:

4x Eldrazi Displacer
1x Palace Jailer
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Reality Smasher
2x Sanctum Prelate
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Smuggler's Copter
2x Warping Wail

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Karakas
4x Plains
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Armageddon
2x Containment Priest
2x Orzhov Pontiff
3x Rest in Peace
2x Seal of Cleansing
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Tsabo's Web

[mackiefloyd]

I wonder if smuggler's copter over jitte makes the miracles matchup worse. I tested versus miracles this past weekend and the matchup felt close but slightly favorable. The games that didn't feel close were when Jitte was in play, as I could just make them have to answer every creature while also dealing with snapcaster and clique. Copter helps against moat, but being a creature makes it easy to deal with and a real blowout against terminus. Playing other answers to moat alongside equipment might help in that matchup.

[Fatal]

For me Smuggler's Copter is much worst then Jitte even vs Miracles. It require creature to work same as Jitte, and bring only CQ - not CA, Jitte can push clock, better then Copter (4 dmg vs 3 dmg), and can clean way from snapcasters/Cliques/Mentor tokens - which is huge.

I also found that build with Blade Splicer works better against Miracles. Since you can cavern it easy as human, have decent clock - works as dual creature, which mean bad trade for point removal.

Reality Smasher is also important I wouldn't shave count of them lower then 3. Trample & haste resolve problematic walkers like Jace/Liliana, build-in CA on spot removal bring always value, and last one - it can trample over tokens/TNN.

[EunB]

For me Smuggler's Copter is much worst then Jitte even vs Miracles. It require creature to work same as Jitte, and bring only CQ - not CA, Jitte can push clock, better then Copter (4 dmg vs 3 dmg), and can clean way from snapcasters/Cliques/Mentor tokens - which is huge.

I also found that build with Blade Splicer works better against Miracles. Since you can cavern it easy as human, have decent clock - works as dual creature, which mean bad trade for point removal.

Reality Smasher is also important I wouldn't shave count of them lower then 3. Trample & haste resolve problematic walkers like Jace/Liliana, build-in CA on spot removal bring always value, and last one - it can trample over tokens/TNN.

With the high number of lands + mox diamonds + extra chalices I don't see CQ as being a downside of Copter since there have been multiple times I've literally drawn 8-9 lands in a row and lost games for that reason. Any filtering I'm insanely glad for.

I'm not sure why people are concerned about the miracles matchup, to me it feels unloseable. Chalice and Cavern are nightmares for them. Postboard it just gets worse for them.

Copter is a vastly different card than Jitte, so it seems kind of foolish to compare the two. On an empty board, Copter is 10x better than Jitte -- I'm sure we've all been in the scenario waiting to topdeck a threat and unless it's a Smasher getting to attack immediately with Copter is so valuable. Obviously Jitte is still extremely useful which is why I play both.

As mentioned in my EW report, I think 3 smasher would be fantastic, but forces the curve too high for a deck that will usually wants plains over City of Traitors. I'm still testing a 3 city of traitors + crucible of worlds build that has more smashers and splicers but that requires more aggressive mulliganing into sol lands and I think one of the advantages of this deck over regular Eldrazi is being able to keep almost any hand and grind things out from there. We're not as reliant on super explosive starts. I've won plenty of games playing Plains, Plains, Chalice on 1, even on the draw.

---

I'll be bringing the below list to GP Denver this weekend to play in a couple side events, the big one being the Sunday 25k. I've been liking the SFMs so far as they are a very impactful 2 drop that paves the way for our bigger guys. I worsened my combo MU by moving Prelates to the board, but at EW I found myself siding them out quite a bit anyway so I'm not too worried. I'm expecting BR Reanimator to be insanely popular so that's why I've got Leylines over RIP. The Leylines and Prelates have forced out my 2 Containment Priest and 1 Elspeth, but the Copters main help with the Moat problem and THC/Leyline should cover the cases that CP did vs Sneak Attack / GY decks. The Seagate Wreckage is a fun-of that I'm looking forward to testing out. If any of you are going to be there let me know and we can meet up and theorycraft.

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Batterskull

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Palace Jailer
2 Reality Smasher
3 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Sea Gate Wreckage

Sideboard:
2 Winter Orb
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Disenchant
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Declaration in Stone

[DisgruntledElk]

Good evening everyone! Tonight my buddy and I ran through a couple leagues. There are some bumps and it's broken into like 5 videos, but it should show a lot of what is good and bad about the deck. I certainly had a couple bad draws, which happens. That said, there were a couple great games, and I will be testing more going forward. My buddy doesn't play MODO much so it starts off rocky, but i eventually take over and it smooths out a bit. I am still shaking off the rust of a hiatus, so please excuse the misplays. That said, I will be looking to try smashers again to see how they fare.

https://www.twitch.tv/kierjoplin/v/104632420

Please let me know what you think!

[Fatal]

Awesome twitch :-)
I don't like some line of play against D&T (like TKS the Recruiter instead of Flicker which would be Recruiter target etc), but overlay very positive plays.
Question about SB:

You had a lot of removal Warping Wail 2x, Dismember 1x MD, with additional in SB. Did you tried Blessed Alliance instead of some removal suite ? It works good against overgrowth threads, and works under chalice for 1. Would be great against D&T which has a lot of protections/pumps and TNN which has build in protection.

Try golem & smasher both 2/3 split :-).

And please add Jailer if it's available on MTGO - it's bunkers.

[DisgruntledElk]

Awesome twitch :-)
I don't like some line of play against D&T (like TKS the Recruiter instead of Flicker which would be Recruiter target etc), but overlay very positive plays.
Question about SB:

You had a lot of removal Warping Wail 2x, Dismember 1x MD, with additional in SB. Did you tried Blessed Alliance instead of some removal suite ? It works good against overgrowth threads, and works under chalice for 1. Would be great against D&T which has a lot of protections/pumps and TNN which has build in protection.

Try golem & smasher both 2/3 split :-).

And please add Jailer if it's available on MTGO - it's bunkers.

Glad you enjoyed! I agree with your line on DnT for sure, just very rusty still :P

I was actually going to test out blessed alliance next in place of some number of the declarations.

As for the golem/smasher split, I really want to pick one and tweak my mana to work that direction. I'll be testing the smasher next though, as I have had success with both cards :P.

In regards to Jailer: I don't play double white cards because my mana simply cannot support it reliably. The deck has a somewhat high fail-rate as is, and I want to minimize that as much as possible. near the beginning of the forum you can see me arguing against it. I believe that City of Traitors is just bonkers and we should be playing 3 copies at least. The power we get from having the maximum number of true sol lands is huge. That being said, the downside is that I really can't reasonably play cards with WW in their cost. As much I will test different cards, that is one thing I will stay consistent on.

[Fatal]

Agreed on WW cost it's really restricting - anyway 2-of Jailer MD works great for me - as removal & CA (instead of Portals).

[EunB]

Quick tourney report -- legacy 25k at GP Denver; finished 14th out of around 100, 5-2-1 final record.

Decklist:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Batterskull

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Palace Jailer
2 Reality Smasher
3 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 City of Traitors

Sideboard:
2 Winter Orb
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Peace
2 Disenchant
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Declaration in Stone

///

Round 1: Ashwin / Deathblade

In game one a jailer snagged a baleful strix and a smasher finished him off very quickly. Cavern dropped a TKS which revealed mostly countermagic which was useless. Game two was a grind fest, he swords a TKS and Displacer, and cast a Verdict on a TKS/Jailer and Smasher which had just killed his jace. I had Displacer/Jailer going for a bit and he had to read Jailer as it exiled a SFM, DRS and Strix -- talk about value. After I baited out the verdict (he had hid it with brainstorm but i saw it early) I dropped a SFM fetching batterskull and jitte which closed the game. He kept playing a Leovold but I just karakas bounced it to keep his mana tied down while still drawing for monarch.

1-0, (2-0 in games)

Round 2: Shane / Eureka-Tell

Game one I dropped a Thalia 1.0 and he didn't cast anything other than preordain and lotus petal before dying. Game two a t1 Chalice and t2 cavern'd TKS saw his Eureka, but again he was too slow out of the gates and I overwhelmed him easily.

2-0 (4-0 in games)

Round 3: Justin / Lands

I had played Justin in a small side event yesterday so knew what he was on. Game 1 I T1 Chaliced t2 Thalia 1.0, but then drew 0 other lands. Died with 2x TKS, THC, Jailer, Displacer in hand. Frustrating! Game 2 THC put in a lot of work and he wasn't able to cobble enough together in time to stop the beats. G3 I kept a hand of RIP, Winter Orb, THC, Blessed Alliance, Chalice and 2 non-sol lands. He thoughtseized me twice, then I drew zero more lands the rest of the game. Mana troubles twice in one match! Grrr.

2-1 (5-2)

Round 4: Roberto / Elves

Turn 2 chalice, 2x TKS is what my notes said. Tough for elves to beat that. Game 2 was a bit grindier, he decayed a chalice and my Jitte and was able to assemble a huge board. I did a lot of damage to myself with Tombs, and DRS drained me out. Game 3 I went chalice into TKS and won easily.

3-1 (7-3)

Round 5: Kyle / D&T

Game 1 was probably a sloppy keep. I had Warping Wail and THC with something like 3 sol lands, karakas, wasteland -- I don't think I drew another spell all game. Game 2 I kept a hand with a t2 TKS and took his only interaction (STP), then drew zero white sources for the displacers, SFMs, disenchants and Thalias in my hand.

3-2 (7-5)

Round 6: Constantine / D&T

Turn one Smuggler's Copter brought the beats. No joke, it + Thalia 1.0 went the distance. It drew me into a ton of removal though. Game 2 another t1 smugglers copter, followed by Displacer and Jitte. He had me on the back foot with a batterskull that took him to 27 life and me down to 4, but I stabilized with the Displacer and won from there.

4-2 (9-5)

Round 7: Chris / Grixis Delver

Game one I went mox diamond, eldrazi temple go, end step made a scion with warping wail, then topdecked a cavern to cast a turn 2 uncounterable TKS. He stifled the trigger, but I cast a 2nd and won easily. Game 2 I went t1 chalice, t2 Spatial on his tarmogoyf while I still had a chance to kill it, t3 cavern'd TKS. Ancient Tomb did me a lot of damage though, and his t3 TNN was able to outrace me. Game 3 saw another t1 chalice off ancient tomb, followed by a t2, t3, and t4 TKS to beat him down very quickly.

5-2 (11-6)

Round 8: Tim / D&T

Given our positions it was impossible for us to t8, but drawing ensured we would both t16, so we did so. Of course they decided to put the Legacy 25k on the last day of the GP, so the prize wall was completely barren. Hooray for booster boxes of Kaladesh.

5-2-1 (11-6)

Thoughts:

Compared to Eternal Weekend where I ran 2x Revoker/2x Prelate main, the SFMs + Batterskull were all-stars. Having a 2-mana must-kill threat does wonders to bridge the gap to the "late" game of TKS and Smasher. Also it makes our maindeck Jitte all the more powerful.

Copter was great as well. I sided it out quite a bit since it is kind of mid-range grindy, but I absolutely love the filtering it can do, and also the way it turns things like SFM into real threats. The fact that we can easily cast it on T1 basically makes it a super Delver of Secrets for us. Obviously the filtering is great too. The two matches I lost I would've LOVED to have seen Copter, since I was mana flooded/screwed in both.

I know I spoke earlier about Leyline in the SB, but I think we just have to live with playing RIP. It takes up less slots, is almost always a good topdeck, and is better vs things like Shardless. If my meta was like 30% reanimator I would switch, but Leyline is just not versatile enough.

Anyway, I'm not sure what else we can do to improve this deck other than get lucky draws, but I think the results we've put up thusfar prove that the deck is the real deal and is maybe 1-2 new card printings away from deserving "established" or tier status. Cheers.

[DisgruntledElk]

Evening everyone,

Ran through another 3 leagues yesterday with a few changes:
-2 Revoker
-4 Lodestone Golem
+4 Reality Smasher
+1 Thalia, GoT
+1 Displacer
-2 Caves of Koilos
+1 Cavern of souls
+1 Plains
SB:
-3 Declaration
+3 Blessed Alliance
This brings me to the current list:

Creatures: 22
4 Thalia, GoT
2 Blade Splicer
4 Thalia, HC
4 Displacer
4 TKS
4 Reality Smasher

Spells: 12
4 Chalice
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
6 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland

SB: 15
3 RIP
3 Blessed Alliance
2 Disenchant
2 Coercive Portal
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest

So, here are the takeaways:

1. Despite winning the die roll a mere TWO times out of the 15 matches (I just started laughing at one point), the 4x Tomb, 4x City, 3x Mox really let me catch back up fairly consistently (my results were 3-2, 3-2, 4-1). That being said, I could have easily 4-1'ed or 5-0'ed all 3 leagues had I been on the play much. Alright, now that that is out of the way, here goes the rest:

2. Smasher was an all-star all day, even against the unfair decks. Even though I love Lodestone Golem, having an auto 2-for-1 which kills them in 4 turns is just too good. I know many of you were on a split, but I honestly think Smasher is just where you want to be.

3. SFM. One of the things I really wanted to test was how I felt without SFM. And surprisingly, I really did not miss her at all. Having only human and eldrazi as types to name make the deck run much more smoothly, and really minimizes its fail rate.

4. Displacer as a 4-of. I was unsure of this myself, and it may be right to split it into a third splicer, but the card was just so good. It let me make every other creature harder to kill, shut off Sneak and Show, Lands, and just destroys in combat. Once again, many things we all knew already, but the card is just nuts in so many matchups that I am happy to have 4 and then trim from there post-board games.

4. The Sideboard:
a. Coercive portal: This card has been insane in every single match I've boarded it in. destroying miracles with all the extra cards just feels so good, not to mention that it really helps the Shardless matchup, which had previously been a bit of a problem. Card is great. Just play it. It is better than Jailer IMHO.
b. Blessed Alliance: Wow. Just wow. I hadn't had a chance to test the card before, but after ambush blocking 2 creatures and having my opponent sac the third while I gain 4 life, I am not leaving the card at home again. Thanks for the tip Fatal!

5. Matchups:
a. Miracles: the current configuration has made the miracles matchup feel very positive. Pre-board I feel we are likely 60-40, and post board the configuration feels closer to 70-30. Between the smashers, chalices, thorns, 8x Thalia, 2 Portals, and 2 Disenchant to deal with problems, we have all the tools.
b. DnT: I had the chance to jam about 15 matches all day the other day, and pre-board, the matchup does not feel good. That being said, the board helps a ton. Portal, Needle, and dumping the bad cards feels very strong.
c. Combo (belcher, storm, oops, dredge): I was a bit worried dropping the lodestones for this specific reason. That said, by going up to 4 Thalia GoT, and leaving the SB hate, the matchups still feel very favorable.

Once again, the deck is MUCH better on the play, but I feel it has generally positive matchups across the board, losing points primarily to Delver players who have 2x Wasteland hands and know how to use them in combination with counter magic.

Anything you think I missed? I'll likely be trying to stream in the next few days, hopefully getting in about 3 leagues then as well. In the meantime I will be jamming games on MODO.

Take care,

[hofzge]

Creatures: 22
4 Thalia, GoT
2 Blade Splicer
4 Thalia, HC
4 Displacer
4 TKS
4 Reality Smasher


Looks great - It is a lot closer to the white Eldrazi lists that Barook played and I like that this has more pressure as well as huge critters in fair matchups. I also like the splicers which contribute to a good clock.



Lands: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
6 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland


This is what I don't like - We should play more Temples. I see that the Cites are good for Chalice etc., but I think this decks thrives from both halves - Eldrazi for the clock and Thalia for the disruption and you are right in playing more Cities, but I think without 3-4 Temples we unnecessarily limit ourselves as long as we only play spells with a single white mana.

I propose this:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Mox Diamond



4 Chalice
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Please play a Copter - It will help in the games where things go south.

How about:
4 Chalice
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Smuggler's Copter



a. Miracles: the current configuration has made the miracles matchup feel very positive. Pre-board I feel we are likely 60-40, and post board the configuration feels closer to 70-30. Between the smashers, chalices, thorns, 8x Thalia, 2 Portals, and 2 Disenchant to deal with problems, we have all the tools

I think this can be directly correlated to the number of must-handle threats. The additional 2 Reality Smashers and 2 Blade Splicers both count as such and are great.



b. DnT: I had the chance to jam about 15 matches all day the other day, and pre-board, the matchup does not feel good. That being said, the board helps a ton. Portal, Needle, and dumping the bad cards feels very strong.

Maybe with your manabase the Orzhov Pontiffs become a bit difficult to cast and I don't see an easy solution...



c. Combo (belcher, storm, oops, dredge): I was a bit worried dropping the lodestones for this specific reason. That said, by going up to 4 Thalia GoT, and leaving the SB hate, the matchups still feel very favorable.

I wouldn't worry as you still have the Thalia/Chalice side and may even add 2 Thorns in the sideboard if needed.

Thanks for the new tech - I think this more bash centric list is a push in the right direction.

[DisgruntledElk]

@Hofzge: Before I go into the thoughtful and well-written post you made, let me thank you for being so thoughtful and providing alternative numbers as opposed to just criticism. I greatly appreciate it!


Looks great - It is a lot closer to the white Eldrazi lists that Barook played and I like that this has more pressure as well as huge critters in fair matchups. I also like the splicers which contribute to a good clock.

Glad we're on the same page. I think many have forgotten (myself included) that this is ultimately a stompy list, and stompy lists need to close games quickly. The only reason a deck like this doesn't need to run Rishadan Port (like DnT) is because it ACTUALLY kills its opponents in a timely fashion.


This is what I don't like - We should play more Temples. I see that the Cites are good for Chalice etc., but I think this decks thrives from both halves - Eldrazi for the clock and Thalia for the disruption and you are right in playing more Cities, but I think without 3-4 Temples we unnecessarily limit ourselves as long as we only play spells with a single white mana.

I propose this:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Mox Diamond


The issue I have here is that right now I am already lower than the requisite amount of W sources (even if you count all 4 caverns and 3 mox diamonds as true white sources) to reliably have one in my opening hand (by "reliably", I mean 90+% mathematically. At 6 plains +2 Karakas +4 Cavern +3 Mox that means I have a maximum of 15 white sources. That means I have a 88.2% chance of having at least 1 white source in my opening hand. When we go down to 14 sources by trimming a plains we drop to 86.1%. While this may seem small, it is well under where I am comfortable, especially when I am boarding in a plethora of white non-creature spells post-board. I am not saying you are wrong to want to add more Eldrazi Temple. I am simply not comfortable going that low.



Please play a Copter - It will help in the games where things go south.

How about:
4 Chalice
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Smuggler's Copter


I am definitely not against Copter. I love the card, but since I cut SFM, I don't believe cutting a Jitte is correct. I could however see trimming a warping wail (as that card has been very luke warm) or even the 1 dismember (because often the life loss is simply worse than just taking the hit and then sticking a displacer). I will likely test 1 copter though, especially with how sweet blade splicer is in combination.



[In regards to DnT] Maybe with your manabase the Orzhov Pontiffs become a bit difficult to cast and I don't see an easy solution...


Since it was late at night I guess I didn't go into the depth I wanted to. Pre-board certainly feels a bit rough, but not under 40%. Post board it feels favorable to great due to the number of colorless threats and CA I have post-board (and most importantly, I get to board out 8-10 deadish cards). Post board it feels closer to 60-65% positive, and being on the play makes those numbers considerably higher.

Once again, thank you for the thoughtful response and the alternatives offered. They are definitely something to think about.

[pocari79]

Went to a GPT for Louisville this past Sat, only 16 players, thought there would be more people. Oh well. Ran my usual build but changed the sideboard a bit to look like this:

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
1 Tempest of Light
1 Serenity
1 Warping Wail

Decided to have a 3rd Warping Wail go hedge against Miracles and other combo decks. I was just trying out the Tempest of Light but never got to side it in all day so I'm not sure if it's needed.

Went 3-1, beating ANT, BUG Control and Burn, losing to Miracles making top 4. Ended up splitting top 4.

Afterthoughts:
- I'm seeing a lot more Ensnaring Bridges in the our local meta. Both BUG Control and Burn sided Bridges against me and I pretty much instant conceded as I didn't expect it. If more decks start running stuff like Bridges, I'm not sure if just three disenchant effects are going to be enough.

I'm not sure if anybody else has thought of this but Reality Smasher has started getting more and more lackluster recently. I was looking at our maindeck and pretty much every non-land card in the deck is some sort of disruption except for the Reality Smashers and it just doesn't really fit the concept of the deck. I'm thinking of replacing -1 Eldrazi Displacer and -2 Reality Smasher for +3 Restoration Angel in the main. Having a creature that can't be decayed or bolted and also provides utility, flies and acts as a trick seems more relevant than just a creature that attacks for a lot. It feels like it'll be a good fit in the deck and I'll be trying this out next tournament.

[hofzge]

I'm not sure if anybody else has thought of this but Reality Smasher has started getting more and more lackluster recently. I was looking at our maindeck and pretty much every non-land card in the deck is some sort of disruption except for the Reality Smashers and it just doesn't really fit the concept of the deck. I'm thinking of replacing -1 Eldrazi Displacer and -2 Reality Smasher for +3 Restoration Angel in the main. Having a creature that can't be decayed or bolted and also provides utility, flies and acts as a trick seems more relevant than just a creature that attacks for a lot. It feels like it'll be a good fit in the deck and I'll be trying this out next tournament.

I think that Is more or less the opposite of my experience - I always wanted more:

against combo you want to close games after having disrupted your opponent
against Control you want hast threats that are hard to "Swords"
against creature matchups you want creatures that cannot be blocked (especially not by TNN)

If you read the post above I more or less argue for more Smashers, so I am entirely not on the same page as you. I also played 4 Smasher this weekend in colorless Eldrazi and it is very often the one thing you want (Swiss Legacy Cup (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30500-DTB-Eldrazi-Stompy&p=981138&viewfull=1#post981138))

On the other hand the Angel is a very solid creature and IF you want to play other creatures please play a:
a) flyer
b) good blocker for Delver
c) creature that provides value with Blade Splicer / against removal
d) creature that is good against Miracles (flash)

[EunB]

I think that Is more or less the opposite of my experience - I always wanted more:

against combo you want to close games after having disrupted your opponent
against Control you want hast threats that are hard to "Swords"
against creature matchups you want creatures that cannot be blocked (especially not by TNN)

If you read the post above I more or less argue for more Smashers, so I am entirely not on the same page as you. I also played 4 Smasher this weekend in colorless Eldrazi and it is very often the one thing you want (Swiss Legacy Cup (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30500-DTB-Eldrazi-Stompy&p=981138&viewfull=1#post981138))

On the other hand the Angel is a very solid creature and IF you want to play other creatures please play a:
a) flyer
b) good blocker for Delver
c) creature that provides value with Blade Splicer / against removal
d) creature that is good against Miracles (flash)

In theory all of this is correct. However, in practice, the fact that we do not run 16 sol lands like colorless eldrazi makes Smasher a much more subar card. We are, after all, Thalia Stompy and not Eldrazi Stompy.

As anyone who's played the deck can attest, there's no worse feeling than opening a hand with Smasher Smasher TKS Jailer 2x Plains Wasteland. Sure, we've got all our best cards, but we can't cast them fast enough! The multiple white sources we're required to run simply do not allow for our deck to reliably cast Smasher on time.

In fact, contrary to your assertion, I side out the Smashers vs combo because they are simply too slow. Unless I get a nut draw (in which I'm beating them anyway), all of our other disruption is more than enough to win. The only time I miss having more smashers is vs something like Miracles, but again, that's a great matchup for us already. So in my mind, Smasher makes our good matchups great, and is mediocre to poor in our bad matchups. D&T already goes after our mana with port and Wasteland, adding more 5 drops and lands like City of Traitors which kill themselves is a recipe for disaster in my mind.

Lastly I find it pretty ridiculous that MTGO still hasn't added cards like Palace Jailer. Maybe Smasher is necessary without the interaction Jailer provides, but I think most of us playing the deck on paper will easily attest Jailer is one of the best cards in the deck. He's basically a maindeck coercive portal vs Miracles.

[iostream]

In theory all of this is correct. However, in practice, the fact that we do not run 16 sol lands like colorless eldrazi makes Smasher a much more subar card. We are, after all, Thalia Stompy and not Eldrazi Stompy.

As anyone who's played the deck can attest, there's no worse feeling than opening a hand with Smasher Smasher TKS Jailer 2x Plains Wasteland. Sure, we've got all our best cards, but we can't cast them fast enough! The multiple white sources we're required to run simply do not allow for our deck to reliably cast Smasher on time.

In fact, contrary to your assertion, I side out the Smashers vs combo because they are simply too slow. Unless I get a nut draw (in which I'm beating them anyway), all of our other disruption is more than enough to win. The only time I miss having more smashers is vs something like Miracles, but again, that's a great matchup for us already. So in my mind, Smasher makes our good matchups great, and is mediocre to poor in our bad matchups. D&T already goes after our mana with port and Wasteland, adding more 5 drops and lands like City of Traitors which kill themselves is a recipe for disaster in my mind.

Lastly I find it pretty ridiculous that MTGO still hasn't added cards like Palace Jailer. Maybe Smasher is necessary without the interaction Jailer provides, but I think most of us playing the deck on paper will easily attest Jailer is one of the best cards in the deck. He's basically a maindeck coercive portal vs Miracles.
Completely agree with the general sentiment. Smasher gets sided out so often to the point that I've often wondered why I play it in the first place. In addition to coming out versus combo, I've been cutting it against D+T, since the hands where you're able to cast 5-drops are the hands where you're winning anyway. The main way you lose versus there is getting Wasteland/Ported out of the game.

That being said, I disagree that Miracles is a great matchup for this deck. We don't have Eye to grind out all their removal, and all of our creatures are in general much slower clocks. At least the way I've been building and playing the deck, it's close to 50/50. Slightly favorable, perhaps. That in and of itself might be a reason to try and find a way to make Smasher better.

As for Restoration Angel, it's a pretty fun idea, but we'd likely want to adjust the MD creature suite a little. Without ways to get value from it, the rate for the body just seems too expensive... Keep in mind 3W for a non-Human, non-Eldrazi creature is probably even harder to cast than Reality Smasher!

[EunB]

That being said, I disagree that Miracles is a great matchup for this deck. We don't have Eye to grind out all their removal, and all of our creatures are in general much slower clocks. At least the way I've been building and playing the deck, it's close to 50/50. Slightly favorable, perhaps. That in and of itself might be a reason to try and find a way to make Smasher better.

I think it's more 60-40, I feel favored. Chalice and Cavern cover about 60% of their interaction, and our threats can win the game on their own, we don't need to swarm and play into Terminus. Plus they rarely can interact with Palace Jailer, so we get massive CA. The two Thalias mess them up quite a bit too.

After board, Prelate makes their life worse, and Winter Orb just destroys them. I've yet to lose to Miracles.

[DisgruntledElk]

In theory all of this is correct. However, in practice, the fact that we do not run 16 sol lands like colorless eldrazi makes Smasher a much more subar card. We are, after all, Thalia Stompy and not Eldrazi Stompy.

This is true. Smasher is not as reliably castable on turn 3 as in Eldrazi Stompy. I won't argue that. That being said, I would like to address one key point you make here: we are Thalia Stompy. That means we are still a stompy deck. A stompy deck is not designed, nor equipped, to really go long. We want enough disruption to ruin our opponents' first few turns, then finish them off before they regain composure. Smasher does that better than any other card. It hits harder, faster, and is harder to remove than any other threat we have access to.



As anyone who's played the deck can attest, there's no worse feeling than opening a hand with Smasher Smasher TKS Jailer 2x Plains Wasteland. Sure, we've got all our best cards, but we can't cast them fast enough! The multiple white sources we're required to run simply do not allow for our deck to reliably cast Smasher on time.

Once again, I won't say that it feels good to draw mono 4 and 5-drops in your opener. This goes back to why I argue against running Palace Jailer at all. A 4-mana 2/2 that makes our mana actively worse and forces us away from extra sol lands makes the deck feel like a bad DnT list, not a stompy list. I know, because I love DnT and played it for 3+ years competitively. The deck runs much smoother in my current configuration, which is the biggest struggle I have had thus far: making the deck run smoothly. Will it have a certain percentage of fail rate due to the nature of a stompy deck? Absolutely. Is that a risk you take in playing the deck? Yes. Does that mean we would put clunky cards in our main board to detract from our nut draws of T1 Thalia, T2 TKS, T3 Smasher? No. Those nut draws are what make the deck a contender IMO.



In fact, contrary to your assertion, I side out the Smashers vs combo because they are simply too slow. Unless I get a nut draw (in which I'm beating them anyway), all of our other disruption is more than enough to win. The only time I miss having more smashers is vs something like Miracles, but again, that's a great matchup for us already. So in my mind, Smasher makes our good matchups great, and is mediocre to poor in our bad matchups. D&T already goes after our mana with port and Wasteland, adding more 5 drops and lands like City of Traitors which kill themselves is a recipe for disaster in my mind.

Depending on the Combo matchup, I may agree or disagree. Currently my configurations go like this:
Storm:
In: +2 Thorn, +3 RIP
Out: -1 Dismember, -2 Jitte, -2 Displacer
Dredge: +2 Thorn, +3 RIP
Out: -2 Splicer, -2 TKS, -1 Smasher
Sneak and Show:
In: +2 Thorn, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Disenchant
Out: -2 Jitte, -1 Dismember, -2 Blade Splicer, -1 Smasher

So, yes, Smasher is not always great, but giving our opponents infinite time is just plain bad. That's why you just run him out and kill them.



Lastly I find it pretty ridiculous that MTGO still hasn't added cards like Palace Jailer. Maybe Smasher is necessary without the interaction Jailer provides, but I think most of us playing the deck on paper will easily attest Jailer is one of the best cards in the deck. He's basically a maindeck coercive portal vs Miracles.

Once again, I would argue we simply shouldn't be playing Jailer. While it is good against miracles, they can often flash in a clique, hit us, and then terminus. Without Smasher, this means that we may never be king again, and just gave them a one-sided howling mine. Coercive portal is much harder for them to get rid of, we can run it out on 2 or 3, and beat them senseless with big Eldrazi (such as smasher). Since I would argue Miracles is also a good matchup pre-board, I don't think hamstringing our mana is close to worth it for a 4-mana 2/2.

[EunB]

This is true. Smasher is not as reliably castable on turn 3 as in Eldrazi Stompy. I won't argue that. That being said, I would like to address one key point you make here: we are Thalia Stompy. That means we are still a stompy deck. A stompy deck is not designed, nor equipped, to really go long. We want enough disruption to ruin our opponents' first few turns, then finish them off before they regain composure. Smasher does that better than any other card. It hits harder, faster, and is harder to remove than any other threat we have access to.

Most stompy decks aren't equipped to go long, but we are. That's why I like this deck better than the other kinds. Displacer is like the king of the end-game, and he's one of the best cards in our deck. In my experience playing the deck, I don't see a huge need to immediately end the game. I often keep non-sol land hands and win by grinding the match out. The nut draws can end stuff quickly, but we don't need the nut draw to win.


Once again, I won't say that it feels good to draw mono 4 and 5-drops in your opener. This goes back to why I argue against running Palace Jailer at all. A 4-mana 2/2 that makes our mana actively worse and forces us away from extra sol lands makes the deck feel like a bad DnT list, not a stompy list. I know, because I love DnT and played it for 3+ years competitively. The deck runs much smoother in my current configuration, which is the biggest struggle I have had thus far: making the deck run smoothly. Will it have a certain percentage of fail rate due to the nature of a stompy deck? Absolutely. Is that a risk you take in playing the deck? Yes. Does that mean we would put clunky cards in our main board to detract from our nut draws of T1 Thalia, T2 TKS, T3 Smasher? No. Those nut draws are what make the deck a contender IMO.

Yes, smoothing out the deck is the primary weakness right now -- it appears we are going different directions, I'm adding in curve reducers like SFM and Copter and you are going toward more sol lands and big threats. If you look back a couple pages I was at the same mindset, trying to go back to the "stompy" roots and playing 12 sol lands and 4 smashers. It didn't work out for me, so maybe it's just playstyle difference or I'm not as lucky as you ;)

To me, because we are a hybrid, we should not try to be as pure of stompy as it's a losing battle. I think if a deck wants to play chalice and 4 smasher that regular eldrazi does that better. If we are focusing on nut draw, our nut can never beat theirs of mimics into tks into smasher.



Depending on the Combo matchup, I may agree or disagree. Currently my configurations go like this:
Storm:
In: +2 Thorn, +3 RIP
Out: -1 Dismember, -2 Jitte, -2 Displacer
Dredge: +2 Thorn, +3 RIP
Out: -2 Splicer, -2 TKS, -1 Smasher
Sneak and Show:
In: +2 Thorn, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Disenchant
Out: -2 Jitte, -1 Dismember, -2 Blade Splicer, -1 Smasher

So, yes, Smasher is not always great, but giving our opponents infinite time is just plain bad. That's why you just run him out and kill them.


I think a t1 or t2 Thalia 1.0 followed by any of our other threats like Displacer is just as good of a clock vs combo. I've never really had a problem killing them, at least. I've played entire games vs combo with a smasher in hand where I or they died before I ever cast it. Running more City of Traitors can help with that problem, but cities are such a liability vs D&T I find it to be nearly unplayable.


Once again, I would argue we simply shouldn't be playing Jailer. While it is good against miracles, they can often flash in a clique, hit us, and then terminus. Without Smasher, this means that we may never be king again, and just gave them a one-sided howling mine. Coercive portal is much harder for them to get rid of, we can run it out on 2 or 3, and beat them senseless with big Eldrazi (such as smasher). Since I would argue Miracles is also a good matchup pre-board, I don't think hamstringing our mana is close to worth it for a 4-mana 2/2.

Just as often as they can flash in clique, they often will not have it and get buried in card advantage. I think as players we can be smart to judge if it's a good time to run out Jailer, obviously running it out without thinking will be poor. Coercive Portal is only marginally harder for them to get rid of as they are boarding in Wear/Tear vs us anyway for Chalice. Jailer is so broken with Displacer that I will just have to disagree as to whether or not it should be played. I don't play online, only in paper, so maybe the meta is different, but Jailer is very very good in every tournament I've taken it to.

[hofzge]

As a meta comment: It's interesting that on page 15 we lead a huge discussion about what the deck should be or is for every one of us :laugh:

on topic: I liked Jailer against miracles, but I think that ultiomately it is a bit cute there and :w::w: is hard for the manabase IF you play more than 2 Smashers.

[pocari79]

As for Restoration Angel, it's a pretty fun idea, but we'd likely want to adjust the MD creature suite a little. Without ways to get value from it, the rate for the body just seems too expensive... Keep in mind 3W for a non-Human, non-Eldrazi creature is probably even harder to cast than Reality Smasher!

My reasoning for Restoration Angel is to have something to save your creatures from removal, not necessarily trying to get extra value from our existing creatures. The dream is to try to flicker a Thought-Knot Seer with a Terminus miracle trigger on the stack with the angel. This slot could totally be something else, I just wanted to think of something decent to replace Reality Smasher with.

I disagree with the angel being harder to cast. I mean, you have 6 plains, 2 karakas and 4 mox diamonds that can make white. If you can cast Palace Jailer, then you can definitely cast Restoration Angel.

[DisgruntledElk]

Coercive Portal is only marginally harder for them to get rid of as they are boarding in Wear/Tear vs us anyway for Chalice.

And that is specifically why Coercive Portal is so much harder for them to get rid of than Jailer. They run 4 STP, and 3-4 Terminus, all of which answer it, in addition to Snapcaster Mage in some lists, as opposed to maybe 2 wear//tear and possibly 1 Council's Judgment? On top of that, we are already stressing those wear//tears to cover our 4 Chalices, 2 Portals, 2 Thorns, and heck, sometimes they even need to kill a Golem. They may have wear//tear, but they are unlikely going to be able to save it. And if they have to fuse it (like an opponent did the other day vs. myself) they have to kill their own CB to do so. Noncreature threats have, and always will be, the strongest answers to Miracles and Shardless BUG.

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And that is specifically why Coercive Portal is so much harder for them to get rid of than Jailer. They run 4 STP, and 3-4 Terminus, all of which answer it, in addition to Snapcaster Mage in some lists, as opposed to maybe 2 wear//tear and possibly 1 Council's Judgment? On top of that, we are already stressing those wear//tears to cover our 4 Chalices, 2 Portals, 2 Thorns, and heck, sometimes they even need to kill a Golem. They may have wear//tear, but they are unlikely going to be able to save it. And if they have to fuse it (like an opponent did the other day vs. myself) they have to kill their own CB to do so. Noncreature threats have, and always will be, the strongest answers to Miracles and Shardless BUG.The point is that Jailer keeps drawing you cards even if they remove it. You stay the monarch.

[EunB]

My reasoning for Restoration Angel is to have something to save your creatures from removal, not necessarily trying to get extra value from our existing creatures. The dream is to try to flicker a Thought-Knot Seer with a Terminus miracle trigger on the stack with the angel. This slot could totally be something else, I just wanted to think of something decent to replace Reality Smasher with.

Isn't that what Displacer is for though?

If I had to replace Smasher completely I'd probably add in something like Gideon, AoZ.

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Isn't that what Displacer is for though?

If I had to replace Smasher completely I'd probably add in something like Gideon, AoZ.
I dunno, Displacer seems like one of the best cards in the deck. If I could, I might run more than 4...

[pocari79]

Isn't that what Displacer is for though?

If I had to replace Smasher completely I'd probably add in something like Gideon, AoZ.

It is, but I don't mind casting a one shot Displacer at instant speed that also brings along a 3/4 flying body.

[hofzge]

I think most of us can agree the reason to play white is Eldrazi Displacer at least as much as the Thalias.


It is, but I don't mind casting a one shot Displacer at instant speed that also brings along a 3/4 flying body.

The wrong assumption here is that you mostly displace your own creatures. But Displacer's strength comes from giving you outs to Lands, Show and Tell, Reanimator of all sorts and other decks you have no business winning as a pure Eldrazi deck.

Resto is nice but ultimately loses against Griselbrand - Eldrazi Displacer wins.

[Wilkin]

I think most of us can agree the reason to play white is Eldrazi Displacer at least as much as the Thalias.



The wrong assumption here is that you mostly displace your own creatures. But Displacer's strength comes from giving you outs to Lands, Show and Tell, Reanimator of all sorts and other decks you have no business winning as a pure Eldrazi deck.

Resto is nice but ultimately loses against Griselbrand - Eldrazi Displacer wins.

Pocari79's argument is taking out Reality Smasher and replacing it with Restoration Angel since Smasher is only a beater. He isn't saying taking out Displacer for Restoration Angel.

I now see he wanted to possibly take out 1 Displacer and 2 Smashers for 3 Angels. Hmmm, in person he never mentioned taking out a Displacer.

[hofzge]

Pocari79's argument is taking out Reality Smasher and replacing it with Restoration Angel since Smasher is only a beater. He isn't saying taking out Displacer for Restoration Angel.

I now see he wanted to possibly take out 1 Displacer and 2 Smashers for 3 Angels. Hmmm, in person he never mentioned taking out a Displacer.

I understand now, but I would argue that it was phrased in a misunderstandable way.

To compare the two:
Reality Smasher
- hard to block / Good Blocker (similar to Tarmogoyf)
- Very fast clock
- Often uncounterable
- Hard to kill -> discard / no Abrupt Decay

Restoration Angel:
- blocks Delver
- can save other creatures (arguably this function is already filled with Displacer)
- Hard to Kill -> no Abrupt Decay
- Hard to block (flies)
(- flier for Moat; corner case)

Play whatever you fancy, but be aware that you then only play about 7 Eldrazi and the Caverns become a bit worse.
For me Cavern has consistently been the best land and often I wait with playing Smashers until I can play them with Cavern.

[DisgruntledElk]

Good day to everyone!

I have been running back a good amount of leagues and I think I have finally found the configuration I am happy with for the time being (actually just 5-0ed!)

I took inspiration on the manabase adjustments from Mikebrav's list that has been doing well on MODO, tweaked it, and decided to go with it.

Anyway, here is what I ran through with:

Creatures:24
4 Thalia, GoT
3 SFM
2 Revoker
4 Thalia, HC
4 Displacer
4 TKS
3 Smasher

Spells:11
4 Chalice
4 Mox Diamond
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Dismember

Lands: 25
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland

SB: 15
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Coercive Portal
2 Disenchant
3 RIP
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Smasher

A couple things I initially rejected while trying this configuration
1. FOUR mox diamond: I really was not a fan of trying this, but it really did smooth out my draws and fix my mana more than I wanted, plus ramping to a 2mana play on turn 1 is huge. This also made the lone city of traitors feel much better!
2. STP: I've been one of the people playing the deck a bunch and eschewing the ol' reliable STP for 2 mana answers. That being said, the card is just good and I am sold on it, especially in the very popular eldrazi matchup.

Overall, the deck felt great and after jamming different iterations through 15-20 leagues, this is the one that feels the best!

[EunB]

Congrats on the 5-0, the list is really looking very streamlined among those of us consistently playing it, barring a few minor adjustments.

For you and the others playing Swords in the sideboard, what do you do vs the Delver matchups? Maybe I'm too paranoid about siding in STP vs decks that I also want to Chalice.

[DisgruntledElk]

Congrats on the 5-0, the list is really looking very streamlined among those of us consistently playing it, barring a few minor adjustments.

For you and the others playing Swords in the sideboard, what do you do vs the Delver matchups? Maybe I'm too paranoid about siding in STP vs decks that I also want to Chalice.

Thank you! As for the delver matchup, it really depends on which delver deck it is. Vs BUG (or if I see multiple AD's game 1), I will typically just board out chalice in place of the STPs. Vs Grixis/Four Color, I typically go with something along these lines:

Grixis/Four Color
-2 Revoker, -1 Dismember, -1 City of Traitors
+4 STP

BUG:
-2 Revoker, -1 Dismember, -4 Chalice (Play)
+4 STP, +3 RIP

-2 Revoker, -4 Chalice, -1 Smasher, -1 City (Draw)
+4 STP, +2 RIP, +2 Thorn

If I see any TNNs, I will also bring in the SoFI

At least, that's what I try to do!

[EunB]

How do people feel about Thorn of Amethyst vs Sanctum Prelate in the sideboard? Thorn can be cast earlier, but isn't as hard of a "lock". Prelate is easier to kill.

[Sisyphos]

How do people feel about Thorn of Amethyst vs Sanctum Prelate in the sideboard? Thorn can be cast earlier, but isn't as hard of a "lock". Prelate is easier to kill.

I think there is no clear cut case of one being the right choice and the other being wrong.

Which one is better in a given list in regards to a specific tournament is depending largely on how the rest of your deck (including the mainboard) is configured and which matchups you want to address with the slots.

You want to have as high a chance as possible to get your disruption onto the board as fast as possible. Therefor Prelate gets worse in lists running only 3 Mox Diamonds/Lotus Petals. Thorn on the other hand gets better the more City of Traitors you run.

Both are good sideboard cards against combo decks, but their strength varies depending on the type of combo deck you are talking about and both offer utility in different non-combo-matchups. Thorn is easier to cast on turn 1, making it a much more appealing option against decks like B/R Reanimator, Belcher, TES. Prelate offers much more against decks that are not as fast but get hit harder by its ability then by Thorns taxing effect, like SnT, Omnishow, Miracles. So you would have to consider what kinds of decks you are expecting to face and against which of those you want the most efficient disruption post board.

I have tried both and have actually not been super impressed by either to be honest. I consider both valid options for the flex slots left in the board and switch between them and a bunch of other cards depending on changes I make to the rest of the list and what I expect other people to be playing.

For example last week I played a very sol-land heavy version because I wanted to try out Blade Splicer. Less white sources and the fact that I wasn’t expecting SnT to be played much meant I would never use Prelate in my board, because I wasn’t going to be able to reliably cast it early and one of the matchups it is most useful against was negligible. But in order to not lose too much game against control decks like Miracles, I played an additional Winter Orb in one of the other flex slots.

Tldr: Focusing simply on the abstract question of Thorn vs. Prelate and ignoring the rest of your list is the wrong question to ask when building your sideboard.

[EunB]

Let me rephrase. DisgruntledElk, why do you play Thorn over Prelate in your SB?

[DisgruntledElk]

Let me rephrase. DisgruntledElk, why do you play Thorn over Prelate in your SB?

EunB,

I play Thorn over prelate for a couple of reasons:
1. Mana-The consistency with which I can play a thorn is simply much higher. WW cost can be extremely difficult, and if I have 2 caverns, naming both "Human" can really hamstring my mana, as I may need a W source for either displacer or SFM. If you look at the hypergeometric Distribution, I will only reliably have WW by turn 4-5. 2 generic mana is very easy to have, many times on turn 1.
2. Speed-The Thorn simply comes down faster, and wrecking someone's mana starting on turn 1/2 is a much better (IMO) than only having a specific impact on T3.
3. Impact-In my experience, adding another 1 to the cost of all the noncreature spells is arguably better than shutting off one particular CMC. I like thorns in any combo matchup, and sometimes I will board it in against delver decks or Miracles. Prelate, in my opinion though, is more for the lands, miracles, and other fair decks (as the speed is a bigger concern in these matchups). If you are looking for a great card for miracles (a deck we are favored against IMO) or lands and the like, I could definitely see Prelate being the choice. That is just not what I try to angle my deck to beat.
4. Resilience-As the opponents are already bringing in as much removal as possible, I find that artifacts are just tougher to deal with than creatures.

Those are my big reasons I prefer Thorn to Prelate in the board. The biggest reason is the mana concerns. If your manabase can support it better and you are looking for what the prelate provides, then I can certainly understand the pick.

[EunB]

EunB,

I play Thorn over prelate for a couple of reasons:
1. Mana-The consistency with which I can play a thorn is simply much higher. WW cost can be extremely difficult, and if I have 2 caverns, naming both "Human" can really hamstring my mana, as I may need a W source for either displacer or SFM. If you look at the hypergeometric Distribution, I will only reliably have WW by turn 4-5. 2 generic mana is very easy to have, many times on turn 1.
2. Speed-The Thorn simply comes down faster, and wrecking someone's mana starting on turn 1/2 is a much better (IMO) than only having a specific impact on T3.
3. Impact-In my experience, adding another 1 to the cost of all the noncreature spells is arguably better than shutting off one particular CMC. I like thorns in any combo matchup, and sometimes I will board it in against delver decks or Miracles. Prelate, in my opinion though, is more for the lands, miracles, and other fair decks (as the speed is a bigger concern in these matchups). If you are looking for a great card for miracles (a deck we are favored against IMO) or lands and the like, I could definitely see Prelate being the choice. That is just not what I try to angle my deck to beat.
4. Resilience-As the opponents are already bringing in as much removal as possible, I find that artifacts are just tougher to deal with than creatures.

Those are my big reasons I prefer Thorn to Prelate in the board. The biggest reason is the mana concerns. If your manabase can support it better and you are looking for what the prelate provides, then I can certainly understand the pick.

What do you define as reliable? With 15+ potential white sources (8 Plains/Karakas, 4 Cavern, 3-4 Mox Diamond) you have an above 70% chance to have 2 of them by turn 3. Matchups where you want to cast Prelate early are not the same ones that Displacer or SFM are good in. I am enticed by the speed of Thorn coming down on turn 1. Especially vs decks like BR Reanimator.

I'm a big fan of shutting down specific cmcs over taxing effects, particularly vs Lands and Omni. Prelate on 3 is just so hard for S&T decks to answer. I also don't hate siding chalice out and prelate in vs decks like BUG Delver.

In other news, I took the deck to a GPT today and ended in 4th going 3-1-1. My list was 99% the same as what I've posted before except I cut a Blessed Alliance for a SoFaI in the board -- kudos to Elk for the idea.

Round 1 was vs BUG Nic Fit. Warping Wail took out his Vet Explorer and TKS brought the beats. Game 2 t1 Copter went the distance while I disrupted him with TKS and Warping Wail.

Round 2 was vs Infect, t1 SFM fetched a Jitte and wiped his board. Game 2 Displacer shut him out early and TKS closed out the game.

Round 3 I won game 1 vs BUG Delver off of an early SFM getting Skull, but game 2 I mulled to 5 and died quickly and g3 flooded out hardcore when I needed any creature or interaction.

Round 4 vs Sneak & Show Thalia 2.0 wrecked house t1 off Diamond and Tomb. Game 2 Thalia 1.0, 2.0 and TKS killed him quickly.

Round 5 I IDd with a friend who was on BR Reanimator. Playing it out for fun I ended up winning 2-1 based almost entirely on Karakas in the opener to bounce his T1 Griselbrand.

I declined to play through top 8 as I will not be making it to Louisville and the prizing was based on Swiss results.

[DisgruntledElk]

What do you define as reliable? With 15+ potential white sources (8 Plains/Karakas, 4 Cavern, 3-4 Mox Diamond) you have an above 70% chance to have 2 of them by turn 3. Matchups where you want to cast Prelate early are not the same ones that Displacer or SFM are good in. I am enticed by the speed of Thorn coming down on turn 1. Especially vs decks like BR Reanimator.

I'm a big fan of shutting down specific cmcs over taxing effects, particularly vs Lands and Omni. Prelate on 3 is just so hard for S&T decks to answer. I also don't hate siding chalice out and prelate in vs decks like BUG Delver.


I define "reliable" as 90%. You ask a good question though. 90% is just the number I deem acceptable to call reliable. Anything under 80% for me is pretty unreliable.

As for your tournament results, I am glad to hear you effectively went 4-1 and liked the SoFI! The speed of Thorn is pretty key for me, and it is certainly worth trying. That said, if you feel your mana is good enough and you prefer the card, I see no reason to not play prelate. BR Reanimator is a huge pain in the a** though, and having turn 1 interaction is pretty significant. That deck is so miserable I'm tempted to take a page out of MikeBrav's list and just run 4 Leyline in the board and call it a day.

One thing to note about your stance on prelate though is that you find it incredibly useful against Show and Tell variants. I may have just had some great luck, but I feel I have a plain fantastic matchup there (better than when I was on death and taxes even.) As such, I wouldn't base your thorn vs. prelate decision on that matchup.

[MD.Ghost]

After one month without any magic games i decided to go with the same 75 pile of cards i played at my last tournament. Yesterday it was a bigger crowd (33, so 6 rounds) for the last tournament of the year at my area.

I got the following matchups:

1:2 Br Redanimator
2:1 Rw Goblins
2:1 Merfolk
2:1 Elves
2:0 4c Delver
2:0 BUG Shardless feat. Leovold

Afterall we had 4 players with 5:1, sadly i got the weakest oppscore so only 4th place. Overall i am happy with the list (8:2 total for the last tournaments) and this time, on the one side i was forced to take more mulligans but on the other side got rewarded to see strong sideboard cards like Pontiff or Batterskull.

Some Details:

Br Redanimator isn't a bad matchup (i even have 2 C.Priests main!) but my opponent won the die roll and managed to start with Chancellor of the Annex in his opening hand all three games... last game i wasn't able to handle Sire of Insanity missing a huge bunch of outs (smasher, tks, jailer, thalia 2.0 because i had thalia 1.0 on the field etc.) - overall very frustrating because i don't fear the matchup.

Against Goblins big Eldrazi Bodies paired with Swords and Equipment worked fine, even Elspeth appeared. More or less the same was true for the rest of the "tribal crew". Merfolk the only issue is TNN, so you need more power to push one's way through the fish crowd. Against elves i crawled back with mull 5, but solid draws. Thalia 2.0 crippled his development, so he glimpses for value but wasn't able to finish. He lost his field against Pontiff (and my 2 Jitte Counters that i hold back for his 2 toughness guys) - TKS is also a really nice creature here because he offers a good body + disruption.

Against Delver i got back in the game with Palace Jailer against his Zombie-Fish and won the other game with solid Beats and Jitte.

Shardless BUG was grindy as always, especially with his nasty Leovold (3 card draws if you kill him with Jitte...) but i won it thanks to Stoneforge, Batterskull and Jitte that played well together with the rest of the team. As i mentioned a lot, i don't fear BUG Shardless with this deck - it is very difficult compared to the eldrazi experience.

Fun Fact: I only got one Game with Chalice on the field :laugh:

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@Thorn vs Prelate: I always prefered Thorn, because he works so well with a) Stompy Mana and sometimes it is critical as a Turn 1 play b) really nasty if paired with Thalia 1.0 (even 2.0 if she prevents your opponent to build up a manabase). WW is castable at this deck, but Thorn is so much faster in a lot of situations and your opponent also needs a different way to answer it (so no Pyroclasm, Massacre etc.). Against Show&Tell based decks, Prelate might be better but even this combo can go another way and slam stuff like Sneak Attack on the field if your Prelate prevents spells for 3 mana (and you can bet to see some kind of Pyroclasm/Kozilek's Return/red spot removal or something uncommon like Jace G2). For me it is clear, i wan't to beat combo with this deck and we have enough cards for turn 2-x to follow up (TKS etc.) so it is critical to get another "Chalice" like card besides Mox+Thalia 1.0 starts.

I agree with DisgruntledElk here.

@Swords to Plowshares: I play 3 at side and i am very happy with them - against a lot of creature base decks they are really strong and the situations like: "chalice at 1 and facing something like Angler with Swords in hand and die (one my testgames)" aren't common enough. Swords hit 99% of the field so you only need some solutions for stuff like TNN (Pontiff for example) but as i mentioned a lot, even nasty creatures like TNN can be beat without any dedicated answer. Overall with access to white i want to play the best spot removal of legacy and not unhealth solutions like Dismember.

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Seems like many people seem to be shaving or cutting Revoker or Pithing Needle altogether. For those who are light on Revoker/Needle effects: do you miss them? I'm especially interested in how not running Pithing Needle specifically is working out, since setting it on Port or Wasteland seems to be an important play in the D+T matchup, and it has a lot of utility against Lands. My sideboards look similar to the ones posted here except I was playing Needles in the slots where people were playing Thorns or Prelates just because I thought we were already good enough versus combo.

[MD.Ghost]

Seems like many people seem to be shaving or cutting Revoker or Pithing Needle altogether. For those who are light on Revoker/Needle effects: do you miss them? I'm especially interested in how not running Pithing Needle specifically is working out, since setting it on Port or Wasteland seems to be an important play in the D+T matchup, and it has a lot of utility against Lands. My sideboards look similar to the ones posted here except I was playing Needles in the slots where people were playing Thorns or Prelates just because I thought we were already good enough versus combo.

I only play 2 Revoker, mainly for the reason because he is a cc2 colorless creature that have some utility in most matchups, which means he isn't so bad for random game 1.

Against DnT i never needed a Needle (hell i don't play any cause of Chalice) - my goal is to gain a position in this matchups that will not allow the DnT player to control the match. I am the attacker, i lay down the threats, DnT has to react or risk to get overrun. Port/Waste is only good if you don't have enough pressure and allow DnT to use Mana mainly for Manadenial (which means also Vial is active). I have 2 Revoker and 2 C. Priest to shut down Vial and overall Stompy-Mana which means lay down more high cc bombs than DnT can. It is critical to be a head on the field in this matchup. You have also your own Wastelands to get rid of stuff like Port. Ramp out Thalia 2.0 early and DnT will face a hard situation because they also play a lot of nonbasics, can't deploy fast blockers, can't use Stoneforge-Batterskull or Vial-Combat tricks. Even the Karakas from your Opponent enter tapped. So they need a fast removal, but the same is true for TKS, Smasher, Displacer etc so you simply overload them with better creatures (only a few of DnT creatures are strong enough to fight your Eldrazi). My side has Stoneforge + Batterskull, Swords as Removal, Pontiff etc which will all do more than a Needle. DnT is not easy, but more a 50:50 fight and it is more important who gets the right cards - remember both decks rely on topdecks and share some similiar cards/tactics.

Lands is already not a bad matchup, you have a fast game plan, you have Displacer, Karakas, Wasteland, Chalice, Thalia 2.0, RiP etc. which means a lot of interaction. Since Chalice is way better here than against DnT, Needle wouldn't be me card of choice (what will you name? Port, Waste, Thespian, Maze - all can be critical!). Both decks can have a broken start. You have a lot more tools (mainly white Cards) than Eldrazi to fight against Lands and with Plains and Mox your Manabase should be more stable against Waste/Port. Afterall you can troll the lands player with Magus of the Moon (4 Mox + 4 Cavern should work well, most Manadenial will aim for your Sollands) which sometimes can be cast Turn 1!

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Against DnT i never needed a Needle (hell i don't play any cause of Chalice)
You leave Chalice in against D+T? Vial is kind of the only 1-cmc card that really matters. On the draw, this seems especially bad.

As for the rest of the post, it is interesting, and I will have to think a little harder about how I play the matchup.

[MD.Ghost]

You leave Chalice in against D+T? Vial is kind of the only 1-cmc card that really matters. On the draw, this seems especially bad

Nope, Chalice goes out vs DnT, i meant I don't one mana Spells in a chalice deck, besides Swords because it is a nice switch against creature heavy decks.

[DisgruntledElk]

You leave Chalice in against D+T? Vial is kind of the only 1-cmc card that really matters. On the draw, this seems especially bad.

As for the rest of the post, it is interesting, and I will have to think a little harder about how I play the matchup.

Even though MD and I run very different lists (I'm not positive though, haven't looked in a while), it seems we board very similarly but likely play the matchup differently. Against DnT, I love having 4+ land hands, as they will almost always try to wasteland you out of the game. I board like this:

OUT: -4 Chalice, -4 Thalia, GoT, -1 Thalia, HC
IN: +4 STP, +2 Coercive Portal, +1 Smasher, +2 Disenchant. The matchup feels good if you can have any semblance of a solid draw, as TKS and Smasher are just too big for them to fight, and Displacer just straight-up beats them if they don't have a revoker. Even then, Displacer is just bigger than most of their creatures. I board out the Thalias because: 1. Too many Karakas, 2. I'm bringing in 4CMC noncreature spells.

[DisgruntledElk]

Also, looks like someone just 5-0'ed with my main 60, (only different cards were -3 RIP, -1 SoFI, +4 Leyline of the Void)

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/531864#online Deck has been really smooth (had a few 4-1s over the last few days), but I just haven't been able to justify running Leyline over RIP. Rest in Peace is just so good in the Tarmogoyf fair deck matchups that I have trouble cutting it. Any input here? I definitely see the benefit of both.

[MD.Ghost]

Even though MD and I run very different lists (I'm not positive though, haven't looked in a while), it seems we board very similarly but likely play the matchup differently. Against DnT, I love having 4+ land hands, as they will almost always try to wasteland you out of the game. I board like this:

OUT: -4 Chalice, -4 Thalia, GoT, -1 Thalia, HC
IN: +4 STP, +2 Coercive Portal, +1 Smasher, +2 Disenchant. The matchup feels good if you can have any semblance of a solid draw, as TKS and Smasher are just too big for them to fight, and Displacer just straight-up beats them if they don't have a revoker. Even then, Displacer is just bigger than most of their creatures. I board out the Thalias because: 1. Too many Karakas, 2. I'm bringing in 4CMC noncreature spells.

For my current list it is:

OUT: -4 Chalice, -4 Thalia, GoT, -1 Thalia, HC, -2 Containment Priest
IN: +3 STP, +2 Orzvoh Pontiff, +1 Elspeth, +2 Disenchant, +2 Stoneforge, +1 Batterskull
= 11 cards

More or less the same, which means cut mainly Chalice & Thalia 2.0 for more Removal and some Bombs.

Sometimes i leave in Containment Priest too but it will be super hard if you face Flickerwisp with your own priest on the field. Elspeth is not the strongest option here, 3rd Smasher or 3rd Palace Jailer would be better but Elspeth is a strong card against a lot of other situations (fly over moat, stalled ground etc.) that i like her as a 1off and overall she is not bad vs DnT if you can avoid Revoker.


Also, looks like someone just 5-0'ed with my main 60, (only different cards were -3 RIP, -1 SoFI, +4 Leyline of the Void)

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/531864#online Deck has been really smooth (had a few 4-1s over the last few days), but I just haven't been able to justify running Leyline over RIP. Rest in Peace is just so good in the Tarmogoyf fair deck matchups that I have trouble cutting it. Any input here? I definitely see the benefit of both.

Leyline is only really good if you really want to destroy Br Redanimator and other GY Decks - BUT you can't cast them, so you need to mulligan (which will result in mulligan away otherwise good hands with chalice/thalia) they are a very bad topdeck and you need 4 Slots! Br Redanimator will bring stuff like Wear//Tear (cause we play Chalice) and Sneak Attack/Show&Tell (non-GY-cheats) so Leyline will only save you for 1-2 turns. I would prefer Faerie Macabre here, because it blanks permanent Hate that try to answer our various permanet disruption like Chalice, Thalia, RiP etc.

Yes i lost 1:2 to Br Redanimator at my last tournament but overall the matchup isn't that bad because we have a lot of Combo Hate at Main and can cast some cc2 Hate as early as Turn 1. With 2 Containment Priest at my current Main i only run 2 RiP at Side because it should be enough in most cases and you can fight many GY tactics with a lot of other cards. Note: I don't use RiP against Shardless BUG anymore. With Priest i also have 4 cards i can use here, but Priest itself can be used against other decks (Elves, Sneak&Show, creature heavy decks etc.) and even RiP can be a solid topdeck if you start with other permission cards on your starting hand.

[iostream]

One note about graveyard hate choices is that they should obviously be tailored against the metagame. If you look at recent D+T lists (e.g. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/529528#online), the rise of BR Reanimator has made it more popular to run Surgicals and Faerie Macabres in slots that used to contain Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage. Depending on the composition of the combo component of your metagame, you should tailor your graveyard hate appropriately.

[Sisyphos]

One note about graveyard hate choices is that they should obviously be tailored against the metagame.

Pretty much what it boils down to. Though to echo what I wrote previously on the Thorn vs Prelate question, this does not only concern graveyard hate but all hate cards in sideboards.

On Leyline vs RiP specifically: The deck already plays T1 interaction with BR reanimator as Chalice, Thalia, Thorn and RiP can be cast T1, so we do not have as much of a need to adapt to the deck as DnT does. You are still dead to their T1 "kills" on the draw though and Chancellor means that even on the play your T1 hate may not be fast enough. Maybe the guy just lost to it three times in a row and decided to make sure that does not happen to him again. Maybe having T0 interaction or T1 interatcion that does not get hit by Chancellor is actually needed to turn the matchup positive, I haven't played against the deck enough to tell. In the dark for an unknown metagame I would still run RiP as it does not need to be mulled into (to be fair you do need to mull into hate against BR wether you run Leyline or not, as hoping to topdeck interaction in the first two turns is not feasible), can be cast T1, can be cast if drawn and offers more against Goyf decks. But if BR continues to rise in popularity and T0 graveyard hate gets more desireable, maybe the question will have to be reconsidered.

[DisgruntledElk]

You are still dead to their T1 "kills" on the draw though and Chancellor means that even on the play your T1 hate may not be fast enough.

As I am going to the GP in a couple weeks, and I happen to have this nasty habit of finding the 2 oops all spells opponents in the room every GP I go to and they just have it every game, I will likely be on the leylines. The card is feasibly castable with a playset of diamonds in the deck, and we really need to be mulling to some turn 1 interaction vs BR reanimator/storm/dredge anyway. That said, I played the deck again last night and even against shardless, I didn't really miss the RIPs, as STP often felt like the better card. Delver is really the only matchup where I'm still trying to figure out the balancing act between chalice and STP.

[Sisyphos]

As I am going to the GP in a couple weeks, and I happen to have this nasty habit of finding the 2 oops all spells opponents in the room every GP I go to and they just have it every game, I will likely be on the leylines. The card is feasibly castable with a playset of diamonds in the deck, and we really need to be mulling to some turn 1 interaction vs BR reanimator/storm/dredge anyway. That said, I played the deck again last night and even against shardless, I didn't really miss the RIPs, as STP often felt like the better card. Delver is really the only matchup where I'm still trying to figure out the balancing act between chalice and STP.

Agreed on Leyline being a fair choice.

Agreed on RiP not being the nuts against Shardless. I too prefer grindy cards like Elspeth, Displacer, Jailer etc. for that matchup, boarding in only a couple of RiP depending on the space I can find.

Have to disagree on Leyline being feasibly castable with a playset of Diamonds. The odds of having 2 Diamonds by T3 are 13%. Even looking at T10 (!) you get there only around 30%. And these percentages don't even take into account that you also need 3-4 lands in addition to the 2 Diamonds to get to 2BB. Hoping to cast a topdecked Leyline in time for it to be relevant is not feasible but hoping for a miracle. Hardcast Leyline also does not remove cards already in graveyards. So even if you get enough hate pieces to block the graveyard combo decks from killing you before you get to cast Leyline, they can still use the resources already accumulated.

[DisgruntledElk]

Agreed on Leyline being a fair choice.

Agreed on RiP not being the nuts against Shardless. I too prefer grindy cards like Elspeth, Displacer, Jailer etc. for that matchup, boarding in only a couple of RiP depending on the space I can find.

Have to disagree on Leyline being feasibly castable with a playset of Diamonds. The odds of having 2 Diamonds by T3 are 13%. Even looking at T10 (!) you get there only around 30%. And these percentages don't even take into account that you also need 3-4 lands in addition to the 2 Diamonds to get to 2BB. Hoping to cast a topdecked Leyline in time for it to be relevant is not feasible but hoping for a miracle. Hardcast Leyline also does not remove cards already in graveyards. So even if you get enough hate pieces to block the graveyard combo decks from killing you before you get to cast Leyline, they can still use the resources already accumulated.

Haha by "feasibly" I meant it in the same vein as a delver deck "feasibly beating a turn 1 blood moon", or normal DnT "feasibly" beating Elves! It is a thing that can technically happen. :P

It's definitely there for combo decks, and to not encourage me to over-board after game 1 vs fair decks that utilize the graveyard.

[DisgruntledElk]

Well, just 5-0'ed (10-1'ed) a legacy league on MODO. Deck felt really smooth, and while I definitely had some good breaks, I am excited to bring this sweet sweet pile to GP Louisville!

Matches were against: Lands, Death and Taxes (and you knew this guy was committed, because he had ports on MODO), Storm, Miracles, and Sneak and Show.

The list I ran with was what I've been posting plus or minus 1-3 cards.

Creatures:24
4 Thalia, GoT
3 SFM
2 Revoker
4 Thalia, HC
4 Displacer
4 TKS
3 Smasher

Spells:11
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice
1 Dismember
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands:25
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

SB:15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Coercive Portal
1 Reality Smasher
1 Batterskull
1 Thorn of Amethyst

The only big change was swapping the Batterskull to the board in favor of SoFI to the main. This is for a couple of reasons:
1. The sizing is simply not as big of an issue as in DnT. The majority of our creatures are 3+ power, and as such, having a 4/4 just isn't as important.
2. SoFI is a faster clock. Being able to run out and equip an early sword adds 4 haste damage (plus we get to draw a card!). Pressure is just way more important than lifelink in the majority of our matchups.
3. SoFI answers both True-Name and more importantly, Baleful Strix. Having your opponent throw down a strix often brickroads our offense unless we have the option of swinging with the Thalia Brigade. If however, we are able to throw down the sword, our opponent is often just dead. TKS swings for an effective 8, Smasher for 9, and it also allows you to kill off the strix sans removal.

Overall, I was very happy with the sword, and was great to see the deck run smoothly.

Any opinions?

[and3h]

I like the look of that build. If you don't mind I'll have a play around with that list and see how it goes.

[DisgruntledElk]

I like the look of that build. If you don't mind I'll have a play around with that list and see how it goes.

Not at all! Enjoy the list and please let me know what you think :)

[EunB]

The only big change was swapping the Batterskull to the board in favor of SoFI to the main. This is for a couple of reasons:
1. The sizing is simply not as big of an issue as in DnT. The majority of our creatures are 3+ power, and as such, having a 4/4 just isn't as important.
2. SoFI is a faster clock. Being able to run out and equip an early sword adds 4 haste damage (plus we get to draw a card!). Pressure is just way more important than lifelink in the majority of our matchups.
3. SoFI answers both True-Name and more importantly, Baleful Strix. Having your opponent throw down a strix often brickroads our offense unless we have the option of swinging with the Thalia Brigade. If however, we are able to throw down the sword, our opponent is often just dead. TKS swings for an effective 8, Smasher for 9, and it also allows you to kill off the strix sans removal.

Overall, I was very happy with the sword, and was great to see the deck run smoothly.

Any opinions?

Congrats on the 5-0, always good to have confidence going into a big event.

I would keep BSkull main for a few reasons -- lifegain is nice when we're hurting ourselves with tomb, we can hardcast it pretty easily after a terminus, and sword imo is too slow for the fast MUs.

It's useful vs Strix, but I think Warping Wail and Palace Jailer are better answers. Speaking of which, I know you don't have access to it online, but just one last attempt to convince you it's one of the best cards in the deck! Playtest it in paper at least once, promise? Haha. Displacer + Jailer is literally cheating.

Every big event I've taken the deck to I've had a hard time with 4 diamond and only 25 land and also had a hard time with Reality Smasher which is why I only play 3 diamond 25 land and 2 smasher. I hope that same luck doesn't come back to bite you since I was screwed drawing mox diamonds instead of land while being ported by D&T and Lands at Eternal Weekend.

Best of luck this weekend! I wish I could make it.

[DisgruntledElk]

Since I'm locked in on my list (I just don't have the time left to playtest a jailer, and 4 mox diamond has felt right (if at times a bit wonky)), I would like to post a picture of my deck!I love altered cards, and I am pumped to have about a third of the deck completed.The sideboard is obviously in the column to the right of the deck.

Let me know what you think, and I hope some other people are heading there as well!

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/15877973_10207950573151607_601752074_o.jpg?oh=3e465860d2d8d08d2f4bc7f5a3902cdd&oe=586FC1E8

[pocari79]

Played at a legacy side event this Saturday. Only 14 players as a bunch of people who would usually be here were at GP Louisville instead. This is the list I played:

6 Plains
4 Ancient tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Restoration Angel
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rest in Peace
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
1 Suppression Field
1 Trinisphere

Wanted to try out Suppression Field and it really was supposed to be two copies but I couldn't find a second copy. Initially, I wanted a card like Pithing Needle which is good against Miracles and Lands but felt like it was too narrow and I felt like Suppression Field would slow them down more as it can affect multiple cards like Top, Fetchlands, Stage, Maze of Ith, etc.. Also decided to run some Faerie Macabre as I thought that people would want to try BR reanimator for the next few months as it seems like the new hotness at the moment.

The TO decided that the tournament was going to be 5 rounds and results were determined by standings....
Here's how the tournament went for me:
Round 1: Shardless BUG (2-0) Win
Round 2: BR Reanimator (2-1) Win
Round 3: MUD (2-0) Win
Round 4: Dredge (1-2) Lose
Round 5: BR Reanimator (2-1) Win

Ended up 3rd as the lowest 4-1 since my tiebreakers were awful as I got paired down on round 2. *sigh*

Notes:
- It was unfortunate that I wasn't able to try out Suppression Field but there was just only 1 Miracles and no Lands in the field that day. Oh well.
- Faerie Macabre was the right call, it won both my BR reanimator games as I could interact with them When I'm on the draw with Chancellor's revealed. Way better than Surgical Extractions as they'd just get countered by Chancellors. If the deck gets more popular, I could see going up to 3 Faerie Macabres.
- Restoration Angel worked like I wanted to. I had multiple games where I was able to flash in the angel to either protect any creature or to get additional triggers off Thought-Knot Seer. The evasion was relevant at times as well.
- Made an embarrasing mistake against BR Reanimator. The opponent was able to reanimate Chancellor on turn 1 and when it was going to deal lethal, I thought I was able to chump block it and then my opponent pointed out that it had flying!! Gotta love how that keyword is buried in the middle of two ginormous paragraphs.

[d00mwake]

5-0d a Legacy league on Magic Online yesterday with the following list:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Dismember

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
5 Plains
1 Mishra's Factory
1 City of Traitors

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Thorn of Amethyst

Was overall very happy with the list. Before this I played the stock version with Mystics main and went 3-2 a couple times before realizing that I board out the package in a lot of matchups. So I decided to try this more streamlined MD with more Revokers which contribute more to the mana denial plan and I think that is the best route to victory in most of your game 1s. I definitely still wanted to have access to the equipment package for the fair decks though. The 26th land was also fantastic, it doesn't seem like much but when you're playing Mox Diamond you don't mind having extra lands and it just ran very smooth. Also I was able to use that extra land to play a utility land(Factory) that I don't see a lot of lists running. I am at work right now and don't have a ton of time but I just wanted to throw this out there for now and start a discussion on this approach. I will certainly write another more in-depth reply when I have some more time.

[EunB]

So.... how'd the GP go?

Given the results we saw in the t8 and the day 2 breakdown is anyone wanting to run some cards like Council's Judgement as a non-targeted way to get rid of Leovold? In the GP Denver 25k I actually didn't have that hard of a time beating Leovold Deathblade with just a Karakas. They drew from me Karakas bouncing it, but them spending 3 mana a turn to draw a card was something I was completely fine with.

Anyways, with over 50% of the top decks being Miracles/Delver/Sneak&Show seems this deck should crush that pretty easily, curious to hear about the MUs people faced.

[Kl'rt]

So.... how'd the GP go?

Given the results we saw in the t8 and the day 2 breakdown is anyone wanting to run some cards like Council's Judgement as a non-targeted way to get rid of Leovold? In the GP Denver 25k I actually didn't have that hard of a time beating Leovold Deathblade with just a Karakas. They drew from me Karakas bouncing it, but them spending 3 mana a turn to draw a card was something I was completely fine with.

Anyways, with over 50% of the top decks being Miracles/Delver/Sneak&Show seems this deck should crush that pretty easily, curious to hear about the MUs people faced.

From my testing with the GP winning deck, Leovold wasn't the problem, it was their True-Names. This wasn't surprising given how D&T and Eldrazi Stompy are both very weak to True-Name decks. The best we can do is disrupt their mana to delay TNN coming down and hope we can resolve a Smasher to get through it. Which is hard given their 8 mana dorks. If they have multiple TNNs though, or one wielding a Jitte, it gets really tough.

I thought of Council's Judgment too but isn't the double white in the casting cost a bit much?

[BR3N7]

So been playing this deck for a while now and just stumbled on this thread a couple of days ago.

Oddly as @Doomwake said I have been trying with the Stoneforge in the board plan to try and streamline the main deck but always opt for the 4 Revoker as its too good at its job.

Here's what Ive been running the last 2 weeks:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Dismember
2 Thorn of Amethyst

5 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
1 City of Traitors or Sea Gate Wreckage or Factory *seriously I have changed this flex spot 40 times* Right now in the SFM in the board I like the COT as it gives you 9 ways to make your turn 1 more explosive and while not a exact math but is the proper number to ensure the odds for one of them to be in your starting hand.

Sideboard:
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Disenchant or 1 and 1 Rest in Peace

Essentially I moved the Amethyst's to the main to make room for Disenchants which I want to have access to becoming a little more like the Vintage counterpart I run.

And running Council's or Sactum or even Jailers are bad at WW. Every time I try them I either never hit them on time consistently or have to butcher the mana base to a point where I should just play D&T / Eldrazi which I don't wanna do. And while Holy Light is good it also sadly hits are Revokers which are usually on Jace or Lilly or DRS so thats no bueno.

Our best option for TNN is Sword of Fire and Ice period since we already have the SFM package. This gives us virtual 4 answer cards in the deck while not the best option still very much viable and at least something vs Moat Spike-Abyss(TNN) who is responsible for like 33% of my loses.

Leo isn't really that much of a issue for the deck but we have Karakas and honestly I will trade 2 for 1 if I must since we have Reality Smasher which requires the same from them and ours hits harder and better.

[EunB]

From my testing with the GP winning deck, Leovold wasn't the problem, it was their True-Names. This wasn't surprising given how D&T and Eldrazi Stompy are both very weak to True-Name decks. The best we can do is disrupt their mana to delay TNN coming down and hope we can resolve a Smasher to get through it. Which is hard given their 8 mana dorks. If they have multiple TNNs though, or one wielding a Jitte, it gets really tough.

I thought of Council's Judgment too but isn't the double white in the casting cost a bit much?

TNN is a bigger problem I agree, but Leovold makes our Displacers, TKSs and SoFaI plan (which seems to be the current "best" way to counter TNN based on what people have been playing) extremely ineffective and also messes with our CA engines like Copter and Jailer (for those playing it). For those reasons I think it's pertinent to think of cards that answer both TNN and Leovold profitably now that Leovold is going to be included in many more decks. Council's Judgement is the only one I can think of that fits that bill.

As I mentioned, I've had decent success just bouncing Leovold repeatedly with Karakas, but a cleaner answer would be nice.


And running Council's or Sactum or even Jailers are bad at WW. Every time I try them I either never hit them on time consistently or have to butcher the mana base to a point where I should just play D&T / Eldrazi which I don't wanna do. And while Holy Light is good it also sadly hits are Revokers which are usually on Jace or Lilly or DRS so thats no bueno.

I never understand this sentiment, we have 16 white sources (12 for Judgement, yes, but D&T only has 13-14 anyway and still runs it) which is more than enough for WW. We're usually not casting Judgement early anyway; the only reason we'd want to is if we're don't have CotV and our opp. leads dork->TNN, but normally If you're having trouble hitting WW you're probably doing better things with your mana anyway since it means you have a sol land draw and are just going to kill them quickly with TKS and Smasher.

Prelate has lost some favor with me and I've switched to Thorns, but Jailer I will always contest is one of the best cards in the deck and should never be completely cut.

[and3h]

My latest thought was changing up the mana base slightly to include caves of kilos and run zealous persecution in the board as a sweeper against x/1's like ttn. I'm not totally sure its worth it mana wise but I'm going to try it out and see especially as caves act as a tri land.

[BR3N7]

I never understand this sentiment, we have 16 white sources (12 for Judgement, yes, but D&T only has 13-14 anyway and still runs it) which is more than enough for WW. We're usually not casting Judgement early anyway; the only reason we'd want to is if we're don't have CotV and our opp. leads dork->TNN, but normally If you're having trouble hitting WW you're probably doing better things with your mana anyway since it means you have a sol land draw and are just going to kill them quickly with TKS and Smasher.

Prelate has lost some favor with me and I've switched to Thorns, but Jailer I will always contest is one of the best cards in the deck and should never be completely cut.

They also run MOM which is one of the key reasons they can afford to miss. When I ran D&T the CJ was to go along with SwordOFI/MOM/Vial/Port... I was always only 75% to cast it on time which was bad enough but I also had vial to use my mana in other ways.

The biggest issue is how its bad with Sol Lands. Essentially it the COT is the last you play or you have to shock yourself and likely on turn 3 at best. Your only 60% to hit this on time as it is with 12 sources and 3 of your sources are able to be Wastelanded. So without going into exact math I am sure you about 50% to cast CJ on time overtime. Assuming you run 2 say over disenchants and were lucky to draw them at the 30% odds to do so then only 50% of that is actually live. You really want to play a 2 of that has a 15% EV in matchups where you truly need it not just a added bonus like vs Miracles. Could I see running 1 over a Disenchant if TNN gets to over 15% of the meta maybe I could try to justify it. But right now Sword is the right play.

I love Palace Jailer and could consider using him again(tried in early versions with Prelate) just sold 3/4 foils I had gotten for Solider Stompy I play for fun cause they went from 3$ to over $20. Its one of those I am not sure what I would cut maybe the 2nd Disenchant or a STP.

[MD.Ghost]

Oh boy... it seems we disuss many cards over and over again...

As you can read at my latest tournament report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30943-Thalia-Stompy&p=983207&viewfull=1#post983207) i won a matchup against Leovold even if i have to kill him with Jitte etc. This guy is nasty but not a huge problem, you can still bounce it with karakas or exile it with Jailer or Priest+Displacer. Thalia 2.0 and each Eldrazi can combat his 3/3 Body so enough pressure (a key element of the deck) will also do the job.

I go through the latest posts:

@True Name Nemesis: Best Maindeck card is Reality Smasher, but as i wrote a couple of times, you can also attack with Thalias + Karakas (or additional copies in hand), TKS, double Displacer or pressure them with Jailer-Draws etc. If you wish more Maindeck stuff i would look up for other creatures with Disruption: Aven Mindcensor or Vryn Wingmare to replace some Thalias and gain "Flying" Advantage against stalled grounds. Note: Both are not Eldrazi or Human so it gets harder to cast them sometimes - but overall it should work.

Sideboard-Cards against TNN: If you have Stoneforge you can always try Sword of Fire and Ice but since we are a Chalice.deck most opponents will bring Artifact Removal Game 2 too (and BUG also has a Playset of Decay at Main). With this in mind i would not prefer Equipment as a Solution. I would only run SoFaI if my meta is also infested with Merfolk or Leovold-BUG is the new deck to beat (i don't expect it).

I always run a pair of Orzhov Pontiff (the card is really strong against more than TNN) because "Kill stuff" is better than "let it on the field and try to work around it". It is totally castable without any B-Land, which means Cavern+Mox are enough. Nobody will kill a Cavern if you also have Sollands out, same is true for Mox if you have a real threat on the field. Pontiff has some advantages: it is still a creature, which means you get a blocker and attacker (better with Equipment) and you can make it uncounterable (huge bonus!), since it works with cavern it is also better than a non-creature card with :w::w: like Council's Judgment. Keep in mind that you can also abuse Pontiff with Displacer and thanks to "Haunt" he can fire of twice. Judgment itself should also work and has many more targets but works only once - mana is ok if you see it as a mid/lategame spell. Judgment will not always be "live" at turn 2-4. That is the reason i also like Elspeth, Knight-Errant. With 2WW she also is a card you naturally play a little bit later, but with her you can break up stalled boards (pressure also stupid blockers like TNN), fly over Moat and gain advantage against some slower control decks like Miracle, BUG Shardless etc. It is simply the 1off Slot at my Side that is reserved for catch all cards, it can be Elspeth, Judgment or any adjustments that work for a local metagame (i even thought about 3rd Jailer/Smasher).

Conclusion: Pontiff, Elspeth and even Judgment should be played over narrow solutions like Zealous Persecution (and crippling the manabase too)

@BR Redanimator: As i mentioned we have a lot of disruption and the advantage to play cc2 stuff turn 1 which is very important and favours us compared to slower decks like D&T. I am happy with a pair of Containment Priest at main too and i made the choice before everyone jumped to the new kid on the block. Priest brings many advantages at various situations and for me it was better than Revoker 3-4, simply because Revoker may also get enough targets but thanks to his weak body you never can attack/block with him unless the field is clear (and against miracles you will still risk a Snap-Block)... Priest at least can run into Deathrite Shaman&Co, works also on his own and is super strong if you get also Displacer online.

If we see more and more BR Redanimator and you are unhapp with RiP (i don't use it against Shardless anymore etc), we can discuss cards like Faerie Macabre as additional hate. Please avoid stuff like Leyline, because you need 4 Slots, you always have to mulligan for it and you drawing more copies is clearly bad in this deck and each BR Redanimator deck will have cards against it like Wear//Tear, Sneak Attack etc. Chalice, Thalia 1.0 are a solid disruption base, mix in TKS, WWail (lots of sorcery stuff at Reanimator decks) and cards like Priest, Faerie, RiP (and we also have Karakas and a lot of Creature Removal) and you should be ok against this new hyped deck. I also think it will fall apart once the meta has adjusted with the right graveyard hate. It is more or less the same with classic UB Reanimator, Dredge, Ooops All Spells etc - once you are well prepared they are only underdogs and clearly not a deck to beat. Graveyard Combos are predators of the meta game, you have to fear them if you aren't prepared enough and you will also lose if you lack matchup experience because decks aren't common enough.

[ESG]

My latest thought was changing up the mana base slightly to include caves of kilos and run zealous persecution in the board as a sweeper against x/1's like ttn. I'm not totally sure its worth it mana wise but I'm going to try it out and see especially as caves act as a tri land.

BW is way too tough for this deck to cast reliably. You'd be better off with Make Obsolete, which is 2B, or Orzhov Pontiff, which can at least be cast off a Cavern of Souls if you don't need to name Eldrazi with it.

[Sisyphos]

BW is way too tough for this deck to cast reliably. You'd be better off with Make Obsolete, which is 2B, or Orzhov Pontiff, which can at least be cast off a Cavern of Souls if you don't need to name Eldrazi with it.

Why play Make Obsolete when you can play Holy Light and stay mono-white?

[BR3N7]

Sideboard-Cards against TNN: If you have Stoneforge you can always try Sword of Fire and Ice but since we are a Chalice.deck most opponents will bring Artifact Removal Game 2 too (and BUG also has a Playset of Decay at Main). With this in mind i would not prefer Equipment as a Solution. I would only run SoFaI if my meta is also infested with Merfolk or Leovold-BUG is the new deck to beat (i don't expect it).

I always run a pair of Orzhov Pontiff (the card is really strong against more than TNN) because "Kill stuff" is better than "let it on the field and try to work around it". It is totally castable without any B-Land, which means Cavern+Mox are enough



Orzhov is cute but if I were to run it I would change 4/5 plains to Caves of Koilos which would be a hindering to every other match you would play and running on 8 sources of black(4 of which have more value on Eldrazi) means your are only 66% to have one on turn 3 if you call Human so that would be considered very very very bad. You might as well run Holy Light and hope you don't have a Revoker unless you wanna run Caves. And if I am starting to splash then I would just fully splash and get max value out of those colors I was adding and add a 1-2 like Diabolic Edicts which is also good vs TNN and Eldrazi alike among other cards off the top of my head (Vindicate/Pontiff/BOB/Tidehollow) look Displacer would make things like Pontiff really good and I can see that being positive in a lot of MU's which is why we are running this deck for the most part, well I also have even love for Chalice/Thalia.

The logic they have 4 decays also has a rebuttal that you will play more things than they can decay over a course of the game and if they are decaying a Sword over a Chalice/Thalia etc.. this is likely Favorable or even for us. You can still equip a Batterskull on a Smasher and do it that way as well or just keep turning the Smasher sideways.

Look in the end we will not have a 100% viable option but I want what options I do have I want them to be on time most of the time.

[ESG]

Why play Make Obsolete when you can play Holy Light and stay mono-white?

Even better. Dunno how I forgot that one.

[MD.Ghost]

Orzhov is cute but if I were to run it I would change 4/5 plains to Caves of Koilos which would be a hindering to every other match you would play and running on 8 sources of black(4 of which have more value on Eldrazi) means your are only 66% to have one on turn 3 if you call Human so that would be considered very very very bad. You might as well run Holy Light and hope you don't have a Revoker unless you wanna run Caves. And if I am starting to splash then I would just fully splash and get max value out of those colors I was adding and add a 1-2 like Diabolic Edicts which is also good vs TNN and Eldrazi alike among other cards off the top of my head (Vindicate/Pontiff/BOB/Tidehollow) look Displacer would make things like Pontiff really good and I can see that being positive in a lot of MU's which is why we are running this deck for the most part, well I also have even love for Chalice/Thalia.

Pontiff isn't cute, i think he is the best cc3 card you can play against TNN and many more (which is important) This deck lacks a sweeper (Eldrazi have the golden All is Dust) and it will be problematic once the opponent swarms you, which can happen against Elves, DnT, Pyromancer+Token or even Combo with Empty the Warrens. All common enough situations that are great if you have Pontiff over Single Target cards like Judgment. Pontiff can be uncounterable which is really great and as i mentioned above he is not only a "One Shot" so you get more card advantage. I never needed more "B" mana, because you only need Pontiff in some matchups and as i said, Cavern+Mox are quite save if your opponent get other targets. It is also not critical to get Pontiff online Turn 3 (Judgment is also not a Turn 3 card with WW - even harder without Cavern), because in most cases you deploy other lock pieces and you aren't dead vs a fast TNN, a single TKS will prevent TNN from Attacks in most cases. Let them deploy another TNN, Strix or What ever to kill more Dudes with Pontiff. I would avoid a heavy Splash because the deck simply works very good with mono white. Pontiff is my only Splash, but a) its only 2 Sidecards b) it is castable with Cavern (and i set Cavern more on Human than Eldrazi, because all Humans need "W" and i also have 2x Prelate Main).

The logic they have 4 decays also has a rebuttal that you will play more things than they can decay over a course of the game and if they are decaying a Sword over a Chalice/Thalia etc.. this is likely Favorable or even for us. You can still equip a Batterskull on a Smasher and do it that way as well or just keep turning the Smasher sideways.

Against Decks with Decay you side out Chalice (so it isn't a Decay Target if you side in SoFaI). For me Jitte & Batterskull are more than enough Equipment slots. If i would need SoFaI i would cut my Elspeth since both are ways to grind out some battles and gain evasion.

[BR3N7]

SNIP

I am going to stand corrected and think Pontiff is correct but am right on playing it with only 8 black sources. I have been messing with a minor black splash and so far its been stellar:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dismember

2-3 Plains
3-4 Caves of Koilos (right now on the 2/4 plan)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas

Sideboard:
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Bearer of Silence
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Reality Smasher
1 Vindicate

So I should start by saying I tried 4 Bobs as he was human and liked it a lot as it made the Mox Diamonds better in the longer game and the deck only had 7 cards 4 or higher over and tested with the SFM package and without. But this required a 100% non-basic mana base which I did not like use of Aether Hub over the basic Plains. But this route was not terrible and brings back the BOB or SFM debate.

Bearer of Silence would be lights out if you could use it with Temple but still this card has been pure gas. I want to add a 2nd to the board but I like the split of him and Diabolic.

Diabolic is good in the meta right now and Pontiff has just been pure value.

Vindicate just upgrades over a disenchant and doubles over against decks like Lands.

I won a game with Macabre cause I could actually cast it now, that was fun.

Will be testing more with this.

[MD.Ghost]

I have been messing with a minor black splash and so far its been stellar:


@Main: not sold on the config - but at least i would trim one Revoker/Smasher for the 3rd Thalia 2.0 - This deck can Start with Thalia on Turn 1 and in some cases this will result into "GG, next". Note that Thalia 2.0 also protects you from decks with hard manadenial. Rest is ok, your Main clearly aims for more "fair matchups" (Stoneforge/Removal Main) - but overall you miss great stuff like Palace Jailer (C.Priest) and overall Displacer interaction.

@Side:
Bearer of Silence - a card i have tinkered around since i have Eldrazi - sadly Wizard designed it way to safe (no Temple/Eye abuse, no EtB for Displacer etc...) so overall for 4 Mana the card isn't good, i would play Palace Jailer over it in any case. TNN is more or less the only creature you can't target with Jailer, but Bearer is only better in this case IF TNN is the only creature your opponent has on the field. Otherwise Jailer offers a card draw engine and displacer-combo for the same mana and idea: Removal on a Stick.

Faerie Macabre - Playset sounds like overkill, yes Br Redanimator is currently a Tier 1 deck (it will fade once meta pack enough/right GY hate) but cards like Containment Priest are so good here (castable Turn1, cavern=humans, Displacer combo) and will work against many other situations (Sneak, Elves, Vial etc.). At the current meta, if you really fear Reanimtor, i would go with 2 C.Priest (i have them main) and 3 Faerie Macabre as GY-Hate (Paired with our other hate permanents we have a lot of nasty stuff).

Diabolic Edict - yeah good card, but overall i would stick with more non-spell solutions becaus like any other stompy-shell you need enough gas to close the game.

Vindicate - solid spell, but i would ensure that you have at least 3 cards that can deal with lock out pieces like Moat, Bridge etc. i for myself will never skip a game because my opponent stick his one off solution. I currently run, 2x Disenchant, 1 Elspeth for this reason, but i can also see C. Judgment or in your BW case stuff like Vindicate or Kaya at Side - but only one copie is (for my taste) far to random as a solution.

@BW Splash: I would at least test Kaya, Ghost Assassin as a Tech, it is an out if the field is locked (Bridge/Moat/TNN or other stalls like Gofy/Strix), a way to draws two card a turn, locks enemy creatures out with Thalia 2.0 or C.Priest.

[contra]

As an owner of both DnT and Eldrazi, I took the plunge and bought my 4 Mox Diamonds today!

I've been playing MikeBrav's (Phil's bro?) list on cockatrice undefeated after 10 or so best of 3s - which may say more about the users on cockatrice than the deck, but they were all using competitive lists.

//25 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

// 24 Creatures
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Reality Smasher
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer

// 11 Spells
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// 15 Sideboard
1 Disenchant
1 Dismember
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Path to Exile
1 Reality Smasher
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst

Here are some cards I've considered including in the 70:
Blade Splicer
Palace Jailer
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Fire and Ice
Blessed Alliance
Spellskite
Lodestone Golem

Here's how I'm siding in a few popular matchups - it may not be optimal so I'm looking for some constructive criticism:

Death and Taxes
Out
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

In
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
1 Dismember

Miracles
Out
4 Eldrazi Displacer

In
1 Disenchant
1 Reality Smasher
2 Thorn of Amethyst

Reanimator
Out
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

In
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst

BUG (fucking Leovold :mad:)
Out
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker

In
1 Dismember
2 Path to Exile
1 Reality Smasher
4 Swords to Plowshares

[pocari79]

Went to two legacy tournaments over the weekend. Brought the following list for the Saturday tournament:

6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Restoration Angel
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
2 Suppression Field

Quick results:

Round 1 - Deadguy (Draw)
Round 2 - RB Goblins (Loss)
Round 3 - BUG TNN (Win)
Round 4 - Esper Stoneblade (Win)
Round 5 - Grixis Delver (Win via Concession)

I made a ton of mistakes in the first two rounds which is why I kind of deserved not winning round 1 and lost in round 2. Forgot my Chalice triggers and also tapping the wrong lands so I couldn't cast multiple threats per turn. Playing against decks that have Lingering Souls was also super frustrating as the deck can't really handle threats that go wide. Suppression Field was great today, it just slowed my opponents down and allowed me to stay in the game. Boarded them in against Deadguy and Stoneblade and they just couldn't properly craft their gameplan.

As I mentioned before I really disliked Warping Wails so for the Sunday tournament, I decided to replace the Warping Wails with a Umezawa's Jitte and a Sword of Fire and Ice. Again, I'm not sure if this is right but at least the equipment helps us buff our small creatures to push through for damage.

Sunday results:

Round 1 - Painter/Grindstone but has a Welder reanimation package of Wurmcoils, Noxious Gearhulks and Sundering Titan. (Win)
Round 2 - White Aluren (Win)
Round 3 - UR Delver (Win)
Round 4 - Grixis Delver (Loss)
Round 5 - Deadguy (Loss)
Round 6 - D&T (Loss)

Round 4 was a bit frustrating as both games he was able to land a turn 1 delver and was able to disrupt me so that he killed me right before I was able to kill him. I think I made a mistake in a scenario where I'm at 5 life and I have a Thought-Knot, Thalia 1.0 and a Revoker naming deathrite and he's at 12 life with a flipped delver, deathrite and two volcanics in play and he's empty handed. I realized that if he drew a bolt that I would just die but for some reason I didn't attack with everybody and just attacked with the throught-knot alone and then I just died two turns later as he was at 8 life and I could only attack for 6 damage.

Game 3 of Round 5 had an interesting mulligan scenario as I mulliganed my opening 7 as I felt like I could do a lot better and my 6 was 5 lands and an Eldrazi Displacer. I thought about this hand for like a minute before deciding to mulligan since I felt like living off the top of my deck against a deck that has discard and can blow up permanents at will seems really bad. My 5 ended up being Thalia 2.0 x2, Eldrazi Displacer, Restoration Angel and Cavern of Souls and I decided to keep since if I drew a sol land, the hand immediately becomes active and if he has a hand with a lot of discard effects, he doesn't have a lot of good options to take. I decided to not to mull to 4 since what's the chances of you getting more than 1 land in a 4 card hand that's also relatively competitive? The game ended up being a farce as I just didn't draw another land in the first 3 draw steps and he just ended up vindicating my land and every other land I drew afterwards got wastelanded. Oh well, maybe the 6 would have been a better keep?

Suppression field was amazing against D&T as it make it really hard for them to port, waste, vial, activate stoneforge, equip stuff, etc.. Game 3 was kind of frustrating as I drew all the Thalias and he had multiple Karakas. He was also playing with this 2WW 2/2, flash, split second, flying crusade guy which made my pontiffs utterly useless. Well done. Have to revise my sideboard plans and will probably need to board out more
thalias and keep the more mediocre creatures like Sanctum Prelates.

After the tournaments were over I realized that having Suppression Field and multiple equipment (especially Jitte) is just really bad so maybe the deck should have just 1 Jitte, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice and something else?? I have Phyrexian Metamorph in mind in the flex slot as you can keep on changing what it can become if you have a displacer in play but I'm not too sure if it's too cute.

[mackiefloyd]

Suppression field is really awkward with Eldrazi Displacer. I can't imagine they can exist in the same 75, and as you mention, the equipment is also a tough mix. If you want to play suppression field, you likely have to take out all equipment and the dispalcers. Eldrazi Displacer has been one of the main reasons to roll with plains over the colorless eldrazi version, but it's probably worth testing a version without displacer and more of a commitment to prison.

[pocari79]

Suppression field is really awkward with Eldrazi Displacer. I can't imagine they can exist in the same 75, and as you mention, the equipment is also a tough mix. If you want to play suppression field, you likely have to take out all equipment and the dispalcers. Eldrazi Displacer has been one of the main reasons to roll with plains over the colorless eldrazi version, but it's probably worth testing a version without displacer and more of a commitment to prison.

Yeah i get that there's a nombo there but I think in the matchups where I want Suppression Field, the pros outweigh the cons.
Against miracles, it delays fetchlands, top activations, EE activations, jace activations which are all way more backbreaking for them.
Against lands, it delays fetchlands, stage activations, dark depths activation, cycling, maze, wasteland, ghost quarter, port, molten vortex and clue activations.

The way I want to play the deck is just to delay them long enough for me to kill them and Suppression Field has proven that it's really good at doing that and if the downside is that it's a bit more expensive to activate displacer, so be it. Displacer is not the greatest in the matchups I where I want Suppression Field anyway.

[MD.Ghost]

Yeah i get that there's a nombo there but I think in the matchups where I want Suppression Field, the pros outweigh the cons.
Against miracles, it delays fetchlands, top activations, EE activations, jace activations which are all way more backbreaking for them.
Against lands, it delays fetchlands, stage activations, dark depths activation, cycling, maze, wasteland, ghost quarter, port, molten vortex and clue activations.

The way I want to play the deck is just to delay them long enough for me to kill them and Suppression Field has proven that it's really good at doing that and if the downside is that it's a bit more expensive to activate displacer, so be it. Displacer is not the greatest in the matchups I where I want Suppression Field anyway.

Miracle is already a good matchup - you have Thalia(s) + Karakas to protect them, you have a very fast game plan thanks to Sollands, you have uncounterable creatures, you have big Eldrazi like TKS and hasty Smasher, you have Displacer to protect everthing against Swords, you have Displacer+TKS to prevent any Miracle-Card (and WWail), you have Thalia 2.0+Wasteland to attack their manabase, you have Palace Jailer against any creature or simply out-draw-them, you have Chalice to prevent most things they can do against you. You have Revoker to prevent SDT or Jace stuff. Unless you are unlucky (and/or your Opponent have Maindeck Moat) you should win Game 1 very easily. Game 2 is more or less the same, you will see more removal, answers for Chalice&Co, less counterspells, maybe Blood Moon (not so hot against this deck) and Moat as a superior Wall (and as i mentioned a lot, you need at least 3 answer against it). You need no SField here, it's kind of overkill and: a) it can't beat your opponent dead b) its killed from Wear//Tear (a very common card at Miracle Side).

Displacer is totally underrated here, together with TKS he will prevent any Miracle, he can keep Mentor or Entreat-Token in check (not easy against Mentor but it can help to race unless you face double SDT-chains). Displacer can also protect other creatures against Swords, if you have 2 Displacer your opponent better find a terminus. Body with 3/3 is also very solid against Miracle.

Lands is not a common deck at current meta - but Eldrazi&Taxes have a lot of tools to fight back - have i mentioned Displacer?! Mox, Basics prevent some ugly Waste into Loam plays, Rest in Piece is really strong against Loam-Engine, Karakas can bounce Marits Avatar, Chalice at 1 is ok, Chalice at 2 is even better, you have your own Wastelands to delay stuff like Maze or DDepths Combo. All Eldrazi are big enough against PFire and can win quickly. Thalia 2.0 really shines against Lands. If needed you can also bring in cards like Aven Mindcensor or Crucible.

Lingering Souls have i mentioned Displacer? :wink: Overall 1/1 token aren't great against First Strike Humans or big Eldrazi (Smasher is golden here), Pontiff really shines here and your own Jitte can also be quite good against weak Deadguy Creatures. For me the tactic would be to attack the manabase, Wastelands, Thalia 1+2 are really good here, if your opponent takes control with slow cc3 WB Spells something has gone wrong.

[ChemicalBurns]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14604&d=287639

Taking some influence from our Vintage cousins - Walking Ballista? How do we feel about this as a flexible mana sink? Pretty mediocre against flickerwisp and other Displacers, but surely dominates Delver.

[contra]

Came in 2nd place last night with the list I posted a few comments up. Still seems very powerful, but I'll be making some changes.

My matchup were
Reid Duke's Leovold BUG with 2 fatal pushes 1-2
Blue White Prison (aka the spice) 2-0
Sneak Attack through the breach 2-1
Death and taxes 2-0

I'm not loving Stoneforge in this deck as it just doesn't have an impact on the board when it lands. While batterskull sometimes wins games, it's often too slow and can't be protected with displacer. I'm thinking blade splicer as a 2-of is better as it helps gum up the battlefield and has some nasty synergy with displacer.

The BUG matchup is pretty tough with the printing of fatal push, so I'm going to run 2 copies of blessed alliance (1 main 1 side), the full play set of smashers, +1 city of traitors, -1 mishras factory and +1 wail -1 displacer . Testing will determine if the curve is too high.

Here's where I'm at:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Reality Smasher
2 Blade Splicer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer

1 Warping Wail
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Dismember
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Blessed Alliance
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst

[BR3N7]

Came in 2nd place last night with the list I posted a few comments up. Still seems very powerful, but I'll be making some changes.

My matchup were
Reid Duke's Leovold BUG with 2 fatal pushes 1-2
Blue White Prison (aka the spice) 2-0
Sneak Attack through the breach 2-1
Death and taxes 2-0

I'm not loving Stoneforge in this deck as it just doesn't have an impact on the board when it lands. While batterskull sometimes wins games, it's often too slow and can't be protected with displacer. I'm thinking blade splicer as a 2-of is better as it helps gum up the battlefield and has some nasty synergy with displacer.

The BUG matchup is pretty tough with the printing of fatal push, so I'm going to run 2 copies of blessed alliance (1 main 1 side), the full play set of smashers, +1 city of traitors, -1 mishras factory and +1 wail -1 displacer . Testing will determine if the curve is too high.

Here's where I'm at:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Reality Smasher
2 Blade Splicer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer

1 Warping Wail
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Dismember
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Blessed Alliance
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst


The Duke deck is a tough Matchup no matter how you spin it. I don't like making so many changes for 1 deck thats already a semi-bad 4/6 Matchup Your wasting slots thats should make your 5/5's better or cards that are good in a abundance of Matchups. Push is at most a 2 of in Legacy and we still got Chalice.

Just run Pontiff in the board and hope you draw better game 1 which is completely possible.

Here is what I have been running for a while. Haven't changed anything for a bit:


4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Containment Priest
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Dismember
1 Umezawa's Jitte

5 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas (I might cut a plains and go back to 3) but with the priest's in the deck its value is less needed.
2 Caves of Koilos

Sideboard:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Rest in Peace
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Disenchant
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Thorn of Amethyst

Pontiff is good in a lot of Matchups and has won me many games as people play into it because its not expected and comes in vs a multitude of decks and again with Displacer locks people out.
The Containment Priest's are also strong and better than Splicer because unlike Modern where you can play a 3 drop like Splicer in Legacy the Priest cost 2/has flash and does help in a format where decks like B/R reanimator exist/among others and I would not cut the SFM package as its very good at what it does but you don't need 4 SFM or even 3. I love me some Blessed Alliance *have it in my Soliders Stompy board* but its not good in this deck and situational. Just run Dismembers over the Situation cards like Blessed and Wail. Wail is reactive, this deck ties up its mana and its easy to have 1 for Dismember than 2 open at any given point. Plus Dismember hits cards like DRS on turn 1 which is very important.

For the most part your decks looks like my version before this one except Pontiff helped me in the TNN MU's and Priest's give you a stronger Displacer game than Splicer does by just exiling anything not named TNN along with being good vs cards like Natural Order/Reanimator etc... And I would not run less than 4 Displacers.

[contra]

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Containment Priest
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Dismember
1 Umezawa's Jitte

5 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas (I might cut a plains and go back to 3) but with the priest's in the deck its value is less needed.
2 Caves of Koilos

Sideboard:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Rest in Peace
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Disenchant
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Thorn of Amethyst


I agree that Blade Splicer isn't optimal, but only after testing it. I also agree that displacer is definitely a 4 of. I don't, however, want to run containment priests or Pontiff- I've played DnT at literally every tournament I've been to and I can tell you flickerwisp is good enough as is and while Pontiff can certainly cause blowouts, there just aren't enough black sources. I'm moving as far away from Caves of Koilos as I can.

This list is feeling very streamlined:
25 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Wasteland

14 Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dismember
2 Warping Wail

21 Creatures
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer

SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Reality Smasher
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance

[massd]

Hi all! First, thanks to all that have been playing the decks and commenting their experience with single cards and builds. It had helped a lot to understand optimal choices. I've been playing the deck since November and it's been a great experience, I find the deck very favourable in my meta (TES, 4 color delvers, miracles, sneak & tell, lands, other rogue decks). The most problems I've faced with the deck is drawing lands when you need more fuel, or drawing moxes without land, thus I added a couple of copters as it was suggested before.

Lands (25)
4 Wastelands
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
5 Plains

Artifacts (11)
4 Mox Diamonds
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Smuggler's Copter

Creatures (22)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Palace Jailer
2 Reality Smasher

Instants (2)
2 Warping Wail

SB:
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Disenchant
1 Batterskull
2 Blessed Alliance
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Tsabo's Web

The most even decks I've been playing are miracles and delver variants, although I've faced trouble with delver god hands. I've faced reanimator yet, but I would likely replace Tsabo's Web in the SB for 3 Faerie Macabre if that is the case.

In the more creature-centric meta I face priests MD have been very solid, even with new players not very familiar with the displacer interaction. I'm willing to add an additional Smasher for a Thalia 2.0 (making 3/3 split). What would you suggest to improve delver matchup (4 color variant).

[ESG]

What would you suggest to improve delver matchup (4 color variant).

When Delver was more popular here, I favored Swords to Plowshares over Chalice of the Void. I also liked a configuration playing Chalices and Declaration in Stone. Copters give you fliers, so that also improves the matchup. The easiest way to lose to Delver is one or more Delvers cast on the first two turns. As long as you can block or kill them, you should prevail. Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull is a strong plan, too, and you have that in your sideboard. I don't like Warping Wail preboard. I play Spatial Contortion over it in any heavy colorless deck I play. Once Delver flips, Warping Wail is a big do-nothing. For me, the versatility of Warping Wail has never really paid off. I like it as a sideboard card in certain matchups, such as against Storm, since Storm pilots usually board out discard spells vs. Chalice decks.

[contra]

My latest pile. Dropped wastelands for cities and additional copies of the most OP land in magic - :w:! Piloted this in about 20 games and haven't lost yet. I noted that every time I drew a city I was happy with it not being a wasteland. I also dropped bad thalia, brought back SFM package (with sword of F&I which has been over performing), and added two council's judgements in the sideboard which I've been able to reliably cast every time with the extra plains. It doesn't seem like a lot of people are playing this deck, but it's got a good game against most tier 1 decks.

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
8 Snow-Covered Plains

// 24 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Reality Smasher
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer

// 11 Artifact
1 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// 15 Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Council's Judgment
1 Blessed Alliance

[metronome2charisma]

Been playing the deck for a couple weeks now with not so great results ,but the deck feels like its almost there and it fun as hell so i'm gunna rock it for a minute. Played at the Bearded Dragon 2.5k E.E. satellite yesterday went 2-3 drop..after 3-1 ing the night before at Stomping grounds, but it is what it is . I'm thinking about 2-3 norns annex in the board against t.n.n. and eldrazi decks . i know it sounds wonky but I've played the card with success before.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
5 Plains
3 wasteland
1 ghost quarter

4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Reality Smasher
3 Thalia heretic cathar
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 containment priest

4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 dismember
2 thorn of amethyst


2 disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 rip
3 fearie macabre
1 pithing needle
1 ratchet bomb
1 winter orb
1 smokestacks
1 spatial contortion.

[metronome2charisma]

Been playing the deck for a couple weeks now with not so great results ,but the deck feels like its almost there and it fun as hell so i'm gunna rock it for a minute. Played at the Bearded Dragon 2.5k E.E. satellite yesterday went 2-3 drop..after 3-1 ing the night before at Stomping grounds, but it is what it is . I'm thinking about 2-3 norns annex in the board against t.n.n. and eldrazi decks . i know it sounds wonky but I've played the card with success before.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
5 Plains
3 wasteland
1 ghost quarter

4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Reality Smasher
3 Thalia heretic cathar
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 containment priest

4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 dismember
2 thorn of amethyst


2 disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 rip
3 fearie macabre
1 pithing needle
1 ratchet bomb
1 winter orb
1 smokestacks
1 spatial contortion.


So i'm changing some stuff.

md

-1 metamorph.
-2 thorn

+1 jitte
+1 vyrn wingmare
+1 Thalia Guarding of Thraben

SB i'm changing

-1 smokestacks
-1 spation contortion

+2 norn annex

[Kaono]

1st place at 95-player event:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14911&f=LE

Containment Priest mainboard and Smuggler's Copter. No copies of Palace Jailer which imo is correct in the given meta and the reason I've not played this deck recently.

[MD.Ghost]

1st place at 95-player event:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14911&f=LE

Containment Priest mainboard and Smuggler's Copter. No copies of Palace Jailer which imo is correct in the given meta and the reason I've not played this deck recently.

Nice result. I still like Palace Jailer, but you can't support both playset smasher and Jailer unless you have a meta without manadeanial. I like 2:2, smasher can be cc4 if you have eldrazi Tempel online but overall without eldrazi manabase (eye of ugin) playset smasher was to cluncky for me (it maybe okay if you can pitch them into copter).

Containment Priest main worked for me too (december build).

[Kaono]

Nice result. I still like Palace Jailer, but you can't support both playset smasher and Jailer unless you have a meta without manadeanial. I like 2:2, smasher can be cc4 if you have eldrazi Tempel online but overall without eldrazi manabase (eye of ugin) playset smasher was to cluncky for me (it maybe okay if you can pitch them into copter).

Containment Priest main worked for me too (december build).

I agree. 4 Smasher seems too much. I'm not sure I'd play Jailer at all until TNN-upswing dies off. I also don't like the Revokers, but I can't argue with their results.

[keys]

He's playing 3 City of Traitors to support it. Smasher is one of the best cards in the deck, so I can understand playing the full set.

The interesting change here is the Copter, and no maindeck removal besides Jitte/Displacer.

Gideon in the SB is a metagame upgrade on Palace Jailer as you guys mentioned. The Armageddon seems sorta random though, when Winter Orb combos better with the deck.

[ChemicalBurns]

Damn, that list looks real smooth and I'll probs jump on something similar to that too. The numbers all seem really good - 3 diamonds, 2 copter, some Jitte, though I think I'd trim the 4th smasher for either a removal spell. I might also trim the 3rd Karakas (esp. with MD Priest) and 3rd City for 4th Cavern and 4th Wasteland.

That being said, with TNN so big right now I think Smasher will always be getting the nod over Jailer. We desperately want to trample through for those last points.

On the topic of Winter Orb, how have we found the card? It's been in and out of my sideboards and has ranged from excellent to "eh". It's power with THC is obvious, but I'd just like to hear some feedback.

[Kaono]

Damn, that list looks real smooth and I'll probs jump on something similar to that too. The numbers all seem really good - 3 diamonds, 2 copter, some Jitte, though I think I'd trim the 4th smasher for either a removal spell. I might also trim the 3rd Karakas (esp. with MD Priest) and 3rd City for 4th Cavern and 4th Wasteland.

That being said, with TNN so big right now I think Smasher will always be getting the nod over Jailer. We desperately want to trample through for those last points.

On the topic of Winter Orb, how have we found the card? It's been in and out of my sideboards and has ranged from excellent to "eh". It's power with THC is obvious, but I'd just like to hear some feedback.

It's been a mainstay in my SB and I'm always pleased with it, but never blown away by it. It's good vs the MUs we'd expect (Miracles, 12Post, Lands, etc) but never all that great because they're siding in artifact hate anyway. I could see cutting them for something like Gideon AoZ that's harder to answer, but Gideon isn't exactly great vs 12Post or Lands. I've been content with having a middling card like Orb that will eat some hate as a trade off for it being relevant in many more matchups.

I think 3 diamonds 25 land is about as standard as it gets for this deck. An acquaintance surprised me by playing this deck at our weekly legacy event and was running 4/25 and really disliked it.

I could see relegating Jailer completely to the SB (I have 1/1 split currently) in favor of more Smashers, but I would rather not play the deck at all than play it without Jailer. Plus I think Storm has been on the upswing to counteract the TNNs running around which means this deck is about to get better. Such a pendulum meta, seems to vacillate quickly among BUG -> Storm -> Chalice decks.

I've seen an upswing in burn to take advantage of all the greedy bug decks too, how do people find that MU? Have I just been getting unlucky? I feel like with out copious basics, Thalia, Chalice, and big dudes it shouldn't be an issue. I side in 2 Blessed Alliance and run SFM/BS/Jitte main.

[keys]

I really like Peter Tragos's list from above, but it needs a few small tweaks. I asked Peter about the list, and he said the 2 Gideons in the board were too hard to cast, which is understandable. I think they could be replaced by 2 Orzhov Pontiff to help with TNN, Grixis, D&T, and Elves.

How many black sources do you need to run Pontiff? We can do -1 City of Traitors, +1 Cavern of Souls. That gives us 7 black sources with the 3 Mox Diamonds. Is the 4th Diamond necessary?

Other options for these 2 slots are Palace Jailer, Fairgrounds Warden, Holy Light or Blessed Alliance.

I'm also unimpressed by Armageddon. I think that could be a Winter Orb, Pithing Needle, or the 3rd Thorn.

[contra]

My take on thalia stompy seems to be a bit different than those of this community. I'd just like to give my reasons for some of my deviant choices...

8 basic plains over wasteland: the main reason to play this over colorless eldrazi is that it's less susceptible to wastland lock/bloodmoon. Couple this with the fact that the best 3-drops are :1::w::w: and that the main reason this deck fails to operate is lack of white sources, it should be obvious why more basic plains is the right choice.

Only 3 displacers: while displacer is straight up bonkers in so many matchups, it's bad in multiples and bad against miracles, storm, and TNN/Leovold BUG

2 mirran crusader maindeck? YES! what a beater he is... do you know the clock an equipped crusader provides? #math

No THC - Thalia 2.0 isn't horrible, but what would you take out to put her in? Many people don't run stoneforge, but that's the only form of card advantage this deck has. I also feel that equipment aligns perfectly with this decks strategy to have one or two very powerful threats.


25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
8 Snow-Covered Plains

24 Creature
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Reality Smasher
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate

11 Artifact
1 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

15 Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Rest in Peace
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Council's Judgment
2 Containment Priest

Here's how I'm siding in a few matchups:

Miracles
+2 Thorn
+1 Prelate
+3 Council's
-3 Displacers
-2 Crusaders
-1 Jitte

GY Decks (Reanimator, Dredge, Oops all cheese ect...)
+2 Thorn
+3 RIP
+2 Containment
+1 Prelate
+1 Council's
-4 SFM
-3 Equip.
-2 Crusader

BUG - There are tons of BUG variants at the moment - another reason for maindeck crusaders.
-4 Chalice (abrupt decay. also the main threats are 3 drops)
+4 StP
+3 Council's (TNN/Leo & all around good card)
-3 Revoker Enough activated abilities would warrant keeping revoker (i.e. Liliana, jitte, deathrite)
Enough GY creatures would warrant bringing in RIP (i.e. angler, goyf, deathrite)

[MD.Ghost]

I really like Peter Tragos's list from above, but it needs a few small tweaks. I asked Peter about the list, and he said the 2 Gideons in the board were too hard to cast, which is understandable. I think they could be replaced by 2 Orzhov Pontiff to help with TNN, Grixis, D&T, and Elves.

How many black sources do you need to run Pontiff? We can do -1 City of Traitors, +1 Cavern of Souls. That gives us 7 black sources with the 3 Mox Diamonds. Is the 4th Diamond necessary?


If you followed the thread from the beginning you would see that i always run Pontiff. 4x Cavern and 4x Mox and never had the issue to not cast him in a critical situation. If you need him against Wasteland.decks, you will not use a Cavern in most cases. Each opponent will try to attack Ancient Tomb and Eldrazi Tempel to prevent you to ramp into bigger creatures. Pontiff as a pair of sideboard cards should not be the reason to play more non-basics (besides the playset cavern - never touch this!), because basic Plains are a big upside compared to colorless eldrazi lists if you fight wastelands, blood moon etc.

@WW non-creature Mana, i think Peter is right here. I also tried Elspeth/Gideon and sometimes it is ok (lategame bomb) and sometimes you can't cast them because cavern is only for creatures (on the other side Palace Jailer/Pontiff will work thanks to Cavern-Human)



I could see relegating Jailer completely to the SB (I have 1/1 split currently) in favor of more Smashers, but I would rather not play the deck at all than play it without Jailer. Plus I think Storm has been on the upswing to counteract the TNNs running around which means this deck is about to get better. Such a pendulum meta, seems to vacillate quickly among BUG -> Storm -> Chalice decks.

I've seen an upswing in burn to take advantage of all the greedy bug decks too, how do people find that MU? Have I just been getting unlucky? I feel like with out copious basics, Thalia, Chalice, and big dudes it shouldn't be an issue. I side in 2 Blessed Alliance and run SFM/BS/Jitte main.

@TNN Do you all fear the merfolk? More Smasher (and cut Jailer) isn't the answer, because if you see TNN at Grixis you will also see the Zombifish and your Smasher is blanked the same way. Talking about any BUG.dec TNN comes along with Gofy which clearly can be 5/6 or more against us. Yes TNN can be a roadblock and Smasher is a nice answer to it on paper - but if we rely heavily on Smasher we face the same trap as colorless Eldrazi and the common opinion is, that Eldrazi struggles against BUG.

I think it is ok to run 3x Reality Smasher, but he isn't the Holy Grail and harder to cast (no Eye, less City) compared to colorless Eldrazi (and don't pump Mimic for mindless attacks).

Palace Jailer itself can also be "bad", but will shine against many creatures from Gofy over Marit till Emrakul (Sneak&Show current DtB). You even can force a TNN to attack etc.

I think the maindeck is able to stay with 4 creature cards as "bombs" wich can be 2:2 Smasher/Jailer or 3:1 Smasher/Jailer (in this case 2nd Jailer at Side). I would not play 4 Smasher (5 to 4 Mana can be problematic, even with Temple) unless the deck also contains Smuggler's Copter to filter them away if you have no mana avaible.




8 basic plains over wasteland: the main reason to play this over colorless eldrazi is that it's less susceptible to wastland lock/bloodmoon. Couple this with the fact that the best 3-drops are :1::w::w: and that the main reason this deck fails to operate is lack of white sources, it should be obvious why more basic plains is the right choice.

While you are right about Wasteland/Blood Moon compared to colorless Eldrazi i disagree with the 1WW Creature part. Both Thalia(s) are strong here, Thalia 2.0 is even better here (compared to DnT) because you can cast here Turn 1-2 which can win games on the spot. Speaking about "best 3-drops" Eldrazi Displacer is the other workhorse. All the 1WW creatures (especially Prelate!) were discussed here and most of us get it: 1WW is to hard to cast as a maindeck choice and in terms of speed (board impact) a totally different story compared to palace Jailer with 2WW as a mid-lategame option. This deck need 2W creatures to operate successfully at minimal mana. Cutting Wastelands means you cut synergy with Thalia(s) and you can't interact with the enemy manabase (we all know how strong this can be at legacy). I never liked Wastelands at colorless Eldrazi, but here with Thalia and overall lower cc it simply enables another way angle of attack.

Only 3 displacers: while displacer is straight up bonkers in so many matchups, it's bad in multiples and bad against miracles, storm, and TNN/Leovold BUG

It isn't bad in multiples because now you can protect each of them which means attack with all displacers. I have won a race against Br Redanimator with Archetype of Endurance etc. Against Miracles, active Displacer + TKS means "no Miracle", i even cleared some mentor tokens (if they can't go with double SDT) or won against Entreat tokens thanks to Displacer, 3/3 Body is also more than solid enough against Miracle. Against TNN you can attack into it with double Displacer etc. Yes bad against storm but overall Displacer is one of the reasons we should play this deck.

2 mirran crusader maindeck? YES! what a beater he is... do you know the clock an equipped crusader provides? #math

Seems nice - IF(!) you only face BUG (and no TNN is around). Besides the 1WW issue if you look at current DtB, Crusader is only a better against Miracle and Sneak Show and will only shine against BUG decks (other decks have Bolts, Swords or can ignore him if not equiped for lethal damage). So unless your meta is infested with BUG (and nobody uses TNN) this tech feels not so strong, especially if you need to cut the Wastelands, Thalia, Displacer etc. for it.

No THC - Thalia 2.0 isn't horrible, but what would you take out to put her in? Many people don't run stoneforge, but that's the only form of card advantage this deck has. I also feel that equipment aligns perfectly with this decks strategy to have one or two very powerful threats.

THC - see above, you should at least run 3 because she is super strong here. Note that she will also affect combat because dropping stuff like TNN/Gofy/Mentor-Tokens etc. as a roadblock can be problematic with Thalia 2.0 on the field. She will also affect Elves, Sneak Show etc.
Stoneforge is "ok", i run 2 at side and it can also be a maindeck card (but not as a playset) but overall every opponent will grap all of his artifact removal game 2 and 3 which means equipment itself is more vulnerable.

[keys]

@MD.Ghost

Always appreciate your analysis.

I've decided to leave Pontiff out for now, mainly because I don't own any yet, but also because I don't want to play 8 black sources.

I'm playing Peter's list with some slight modifications:

3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Containment Priest
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
5 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Containment Priest

I'm playing a SoFI over the second Jitte, since I can search for it with Stoneforge post-board. It also randomly helps get past TNN, and is at least a source of card advantage on an empty board.

I have zero double white cards in the deck, which means the manabase is super smooth. Copter is an all-star, and it's possible 3 could be optimal (although the list already feels really tight). It filters away extra Moxes, legendary dudes, or Smasher early on, and gives your random 2 drops something to do. Flashing in Priest EOT to pilot Copter does the trick.

2 Karakas supported by 3 Containment Priest and 3 RiP against S&T/Reanimator/Dredge. Priest + Displacer is a makeshift, reusable Palace Jailer.

[MD.Ghost]

@keys: Thanks for your reply, ironically i build nearly the same Maindeck yesterday.

My build number 6 (i developed the deck since the beginning) contains 59/60 of your build. I added a 3rd copy of Smasher (and a lot of other new inventions like Copter, only 3 Mox etc.) but instead of (for my taste still greedy) Playset i test 1 Crucible of Worlds.


Crucible can not only compensate the reduction of Thalia HTC (4>3) as your own manadenial, it has also a synergy with Copter, Mox and City and overall can work against your opponents manadenial plan.

Containment Priest Main was also at my latest version (from december) since it is not only strong against stuff like Reanimator/SneakShow, it also acts as Removal with Displacer (my latest version had additional palace jailer and warping wail).

Sideboard looks more or less the same, i still use 2 Pontiff and 1 Palace Jailer (your Stoneforge+Skull Slots) and currently use a 3rd Disenchant (can be Judgment, Mangara, Planeswalker etc.) because i like to have at least 3 outs against stuff like Ensnaring Bridge or Moat. Sword of Fire and Ice looks fine IF the build contains Stoneforge, but as i mentioned above, if you fear TNN you can also end in a situation against Gofy/Angler with a near useless equipment. Jitte itself is strong because you get the counters from combat damage (and we have First Strike Thalias), Sword of FaI needs to connect for full profit.

[keys]

Nice to see we're on the same page. The SoFI could end up being the third Copter, since that also gets by TNN. I just don't like it as much against Delver.

[benoasan]

Hi guys,

I am new on this thread. I am actually an Eldrazi player and I want to switch to Thalia stompy.

Your buils are very intesresting and I will try more or less the Peter's version (2 blessed alliance instead of Gideon and Palace jialler instead of Amargeddon).

Do you have any sideboard guide?

What do you think about Ballista in this deck?

Thanks in advance for answers & sorry for my english.

[metronome2charisma]

So this list took 2nd at a classic.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112172

This is little different from all the list I've seen i'm gunna give it a shot.

[MD.Ghost]

So this list took 2nd at a classic.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112172

This is little different from all the list I've seen i'm gunna give it a shot.

Nice result - but bad list!

----------

@Pontiff-discussion: card is good and my current build only contains 7 sources of black mana (4 Cavern/3 Mox) - i still wait for the unlucky moment aka die with Pontiff in hand, unable to cast the dude. Pic from a replay today (2:0 vs Bant)

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B-3xy_ODyxK7LW81djRVLThMRFk

[keys]

What the hell are you playing against :laugh:

[Gheizen64]

This is a list i've been testing lately.


4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
4 Tireless Tracker

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Brushland

It goes GW instead of straight W for a series of reasons, but mostly noble hierarch. Hierarch in this deck do the following:

- give the deck much more mana consistency, allowing consistent T2 TKS and big thalia , or even thalia/chalice with wasteland backup.
- make curving out easier, with more T1 plays
- make your thalias and TKS much more troublesome on attack. 5 instead of 4 thoughness is often a big deal against goyfs.

Can't crew copters though, while it make them beat cliques and delvers. Also human so castable under chalice at 1 with cavern.

The other green addition is Tireless tracker. I've always been impressed by the card, acting as both win condition and card advantage, it's been extremely good for me in my testings. The trick to it is to consider it more of a 4-drop than a 3 -one. Getting a clue off from it ensure card advantage even if removed (and it get hit by everything basically). Prioritize playing thalias, chalice, copter or TKS over it on T2.

Renegade rallier is something i would've liked to try in the deck, but GW is too hard to hit consistently. The same is true for every colored spell that isn't a human creature.

Yeah it's essentially a port of Bant Eldrazi.

[contra]

So I'm back at it after a short hiatus from thalia stompy. Playing a super standard list taken from the aggregate of mtgtop8.com with a few minor tweaks (-1 THC, -1 Dismember, +1 SFM, +1 Sword of F&I). Many of the decks that have been placing at tournaments seem real bad - like this one: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112172
Why have so many ppl been playing Armageddon?

Even though the deck has existed for about a year, there still isn't a consensus of what the mainboard should entail. While I really appreciate the well-written primer on page 13 of this thread, I feel the sample deck lists aren't representative of what people are actually playing. I'm personally not a fan of Thalia 2.0, I have to respect the hive mind...

Anyway, here's some not-so super secret tech I've been considering...
Aven Mindcensor
Vryn Wingmare
Ghostly Prison
Timely Reinforcements

Aven Mindcensor especially would be great if you'd rather not run the SFM package, Vryn Wingmare could be thalia 5&6, and Prison seems like a decent SB inclusion.

25 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
5 Plains

24 Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

11 Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Equipment

Sideboard
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Thorn of Amethyst

[mistercakes]

what does mindcensor have to do with sfm? it should only affect opponents. :)

[contra]

what does mindcensor have to do with sfm? it should only affect opponents. :)

wasn't suggesting a dissynergy, its just that sfm is commonly not played and itd be a good replacement. But speaking of synergy, mindcensor has a ton with the taxing elements of this deck...

[MD.Ghost]

My current build is without both Copters - they were fine in most cases but overall not powerfull enough and if we justify the upsides it also means they stay in most G2-3 situations which means you need to find other cards for sideboarding etc.

I simply added a 3rd Stoneforge and a 3rd Equipment (Swords of X), which means +1 Creature (which is fine) and 1 Equipment to powerup Creatures on the field or (in case of Copter) apply some kind of evasion to run over blockers. Full Playset of Stoneforge is still to much for me, because we can hardcast even stuff like Batterskull in most cases, can reuse SfM with Displacer and can't cast SfM T1 (with only 3 Mox) or even T2 in some situations (temple/tomb hand or only one cavern with spicy Humans/Eldrazi in Hand etc.) But with a 3rd Stoneforge and a "Swords"Slot Maindeck we can also think about another Sword at Side, simply because we have a "topdeck"pile and tutoring Equipment can be more viable than any hope for random 1off "Bombs" (at least in terms of consistent)

I made a bunch of testgames with the common sword (Fire and Ice) maindeck - it was okay but not outperformed in absence of TNN - simply because Jitte and Batterskull are very solid in most cases too. I currently tinker with Sword of Light and Shadow over Fire and Ice (SoFaI is at side) because it is not only good against DnT and Miracle (ignoring Mentor/Angels and Swords), it will also protects you from Zombie-Fish, Strix (!) and Fatal Push (the new hype removal that sadly can kill TKS) heck even Griselboy/Marit, bonus points are that you get back a creature which is simply underrated. It is maybe not strong enough for DnT because they have a) a lot of creatures and b) all are very small - compared to us we have fewer but more powerfull creatures and i often faced situations i run out of meat (all countered/killed by removal etc.) getting back Eldrazi seems not to bad. Some Lifegain to our draining Tombs or fast Delver-beats are also welcome. Note that Thalia 2.0, Displacer and Stoneforge are Bolt-immun once you equip them so protection from red are not the big upside here (and we still have big elrazi).

Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Light and Shadow seem both well placed for us at the current meta/problematic situations. (we can discuss all swords if needed)

-------

@other Sideboard-Cards: I want also mentioned Wasteland Strangler - this guy works well against all the BUG-Decks around, because Deathrite (and Angler for Grixis) will help to cast him as a removal spell, because we also have TKS and Swords (and WWail) to exile cards. Together with Displacer he can kill anything besides TNN. From my experience with Pontiff and Jailer it is very good to have Removal that can beat, because you don't want to many non-creature spells (we already have mox, chalice, equip) even if chalice goes out cutting creatures for pure spells isn't so good because your opponent will also add more removal-answers and we are not a swarm deck, so running out of gas and relying on top decks will be a bad situations (especially against blue based cantrip decks) - so if you have space (aka not running additional equipment or stuff like Pontiff) at side, this guy might be good enough since as a eldrazi with cc3 he is super cheap to be active early enough or if your manabase is under fire.

Note: if you are lucky you can also punish BUG Food Chain for exiling Griffins or BUG Shardless with Suspend-Vision(!)

[benoasan]

@MD Ghost, May you post the corresponding list please?

[MD.Ghost]

@current "basic list":

// 60 Maindeck

// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// 25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Palace Jailer

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Wasteland

// 15 Sideboard

// 3 Artifact
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Sword of Light and Shadow

// 6 Creature
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre

// 6 Instant
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 4 Swords to Plowshares

Maindeck flexslot: Palace Jailer - but i still like him as removal/card draw - Sideboard Faerie Macabre commonly is Rest in Peace, but i don't need RiP against BUG/Gofy decks anymore, so it is more or less (besides lands.deck) against fast graveyard hates and if speed counts T0 interaction that dodges stuff like Chancellor of the Annex is nice (overall we can still drop thalia/chalice/thorn turn 1). I would also use Sword of Light and Shadow against Reanimtor, pass Grisel, Sire and Gravetitan and also bring back Faerie too (:cool:)

This build is overall designed to be resilient and should work in most situations with some card advantage stuff.


-------------------


I currently brew around with a fun build with BLUE-cards - just in case someone will go with a much more experimental list.

// 60 Maindeck

// 9 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// 26 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Eldrazi Skyspawner
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Palace Jailer

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Adarkar Wastes (or Tundra if you want "fake" Miracle T1 situations)

// 15 Sideboard

// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst

// 5 Creature
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

// 6 Instant
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 4 Swords to Plowshares

As you can see the core is more or less the same - i adjusted the manabase, cut stoneforge and add some nice flying eldrazi and another jailer to compensate SfM/Equipment. Skyspawner can catch delvers, fly over TNN and can carry a jitte (bonus points: ramps and works with displacer). Sideboard contains the real fun: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV is just enougher tax-element that works also for enemy creatures (hi elves!) and can be protected with Karakas (so not a bad card against miracles too). Venser is against combo, fringe decks or any situation you need a 3rd Disenchant (in case of lock elements like Bridge) and - yes - it can be bonkers with Displacer too.

Picture of the day: "Hate.dec" :tongue:

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B-3xy_ODyxK7d0lxYzZRZjBiSkk

[metronome2charisma]

So over the past few weeks I've played 7 fnm sized events, all between 12-20 people Ive now 3-1 five of the 7. 2 grand prix side events in n.y. where i went 2-2 and 3-1. My results have definitely gotten better after playing the deck for a while.( about 50-60 sanctioned) The thing that took the most getting used to was how much more grindy this deck is than the standard eldrazi list i was playing for nearly a year. I'm on the same list from a couple pages ago. I tried smugglers copter, didn't like it that much mostly just gets hit with artifact hate game 2 and 3 and sometimes cost 3 because theres a Thalia in play . Just wasn't good enough. ok well thats it for this minute. I gotta of to bed.

[Kaono]

I didn't see people mention this earlier, but I guess TS took 1st at a NRG event. Here's the interview with the pilot:

http://articles.nerdragegaming.com/qa-march-2017-ct-winner-peter-tragos/

Notable choices: 0 Jailer, 2 Gideon in SB, Priest & Revoker & Copter all mainboard.

Congrats to Pete

[contra]

I didn't see people mention this earlier, but I guess TS took 1st at a NRG event. Here's the interview with the pilot:

http://articles.nerdragegaming.com/qa-march-2017-ct-winner-peter-tragos/

Notable choices: 0 Jailer, 2 Gideon in SB, Priest & Revoker & Copter all mainboard.

Congrats to Pete

I'm personally not a fan of Pete’s list here, but I can agree with him that the following cards are at the core of the deck:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
25 lands

The things I don’t like about the list are the copters, maindeck preists and gideon & armageddon in the side.

I am however going to test out his mana base:
5 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 City of Traitors
3 Karakas
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland

[metronome2charisma]

I got 3rd at the Bearded dragon Battle for power today. 98 People .I went undefeated through the swiss 6-0 ,then i.d. the last round for top seed. I play Craig krempels( sp?) on storm . i play a chalice on 1 he wins on his turn 1 through chalice on 1 . i take the next 2 . Then lost to Ted felicetti on miracles for 3rd.


This is my list


11 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 smugglers copter

25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 containment priest
1 endbringer
1 aven mindcensor

24 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

15 Sideboard

2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 pithing needle
2 Faerie Macabre
2 rest in peace
2 Disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 ratchet bomb
2 blessed alliance

[contra]

Congratulations metronome

Did mindcensor or blessed alliance make a good showing?

[metronome2charisma]

I got 3rd at the Bearded dragon Battle for power today. 98 People .I went undefeated through the swiss 6-0 ,then i.d. the last round for top seed. I play Craig krempels( sp?) on storm . i play a chalice on 1 he wins on his turn 1 through chalice on 1 . i take the next 2 . Then lost to Ted felicetti on miracles for 3rd.


This is my list


11 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 smugglers copter

25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 containment priest
1 endbringer
1 aven mindcensor

24 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

15 Sideboard

2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 pithing needle
2 Faerie Macabre
2 rest in peace
2 Disenchan
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 ratchet bomb
2 blessed alliance


Congratulations metronome

Did mindcensor or blessed alliance make a good showing?

Thanks Contra!

Blessed alliance has won me a few games and as long as true name ,sneak and show and lands are popular in my meta Blessed alliance will be staying around . Minsdcensor has been solid. not over performing but doing exactly what it needs to do...block delvers and fuck my opponent. i'm going to make a couple changes though . i think the end bringer should be something else . preferably something under 5 mana , maybe hero of bladehold ,maybe palace jailer, maybe another copter, maybe walking ballista ( probably ballista) .

[MD.Ghost]

I'm personally not a fan of Pete’s list here, but I can agree with him that the following cards are at the core of the deck:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
25 lands


Agree here - this is the core - rest depends on playstyle but i also think at least 3x Thalia HC should be at main, at least 1x Jitte (or a 2nd Copy or Stoneforge+Equip) - overall i think the real flex spots are Stoneforge+Equipment, because we can also play C.Priest or Copter main etc. Or simply drop more Hate-Bears like Wingmare or Mindcensor etc.


Thanks Contra!

Blessed alliance has won me a few games and as long as true name ,sneak and show and lands are popular in my meta Blessed alliance will be staying around Minsdcensor has been solid. not over performing but doing exactly what it needs to do...block delvers and fuck my opponent. i'm going to make a couple changes though . i think the end bringer should be something else . preferably something under 5 mana , maybe hero of bladehold ,maybe palace jailer, maybe another copter, maybe walking ballista ( probably ballista) .

I run Pontiff, but i think Blessed Alliance is a solid card if you don't like the WB-Human-Sweeper because it will also helps against TNN, Eldrazi etc. Overall if you search for a card under 5 Mana i would clearly think go with Palace Jailer, its only cc4, easily be uncounterable, removal on a body, combo with Displacer and draw cards eot (faster than confi etc.) overall a great package and one of the reasons even some DnT Players try Ancient Tombs.

[metronome2charisma]

Agree here - this is the core - rest depends on playstyle but i also think at least 3x Thalia HC should be at main, at least 1x Jitte (or a 2nd Copy or Stoneforge+Equip) - overall i think the real flex spots are Stoneforge+Equipment, because we can also play C.Priest or Copter main etc. Or simply drop more Hate-Bears like Wingmare or Mindcensor etc.



I run Pontiff, but i think Blessed Alliance is a solid card if you don't like the WB-Human-Sweeper because it will also helps against TNN, Eldrazi etc. Overall if you search for a card under 5 Mana i would clearly think go with Palace Jailer, its only cc4, easily be uncounterable, removal on a body, combo with Displacer and draw cards eot (faster than confi etc.) overall a great package and one of the reasons even some DnT Players try Ancient Tombs.

i've run jailer and he's been good but i don't think he's the threat i'm looking for . Smugglers copter actually preformed really well yesterday and put me in a lot of good spots and was generally really solid but then again i felt like i couldn't drop a game (i only dropped 2 games in the swiss (and got a deck reg. loss)) over all they give the deck more angles . Speaking of angles, creatures with flash also take a lot of people by surprise and make playing and equipping a jitte ,from a clear board, a real threat. Playing 6 plains is a nod to needing more white mana for your "good, white, side board cards" , which in turn makes playing Mindcensor mb possible.

[metronome2charisma]

rd 1 bug delver 2-0
rd 2 sneak n show 2-1 .
rd 3 grixis delver. Got deck checked and got a loss for deck reg error then i won the next 2 .2-1
rd 4 lands . i crush him .have every answer to everything. 2-0 . Was told i shouldn't be playing blessed alliance because it sucks after i beat him with it .
rd 5 G-fab on miracles. Win the roll won the match . Nothing of real significance happened . just kept jamming 1 or 2 threats at a time on the board and try to shut him down.2-1
rd 6 Dan miller on miracles. We've been friends for a long time so the match is super casual. he remarks after the match that he "feels like he just got steam rolled and never had a chance." i agreed. 2-0
rd 7 we i.d.
top 8
Craig krempels on storm .He wins through my turn 1 chalice on his turn 1. I win the next 2 with the help of thorn, chalice,revoker and mind censor .Pretty standard fare for the match-up. 2-1
semis Ted Felicetti on miracles. I keep marginal hands and get punished hard by bad draw after bad draw. Mostly didn't get passed 3 mana at any point and lost. Game 2 same thing . i keep a hand with 2 petal 1 land hoping to get there don't draw another land for 3-4 turns . the game was over. 0-2
3RD place 7-1-1. Wrote it down for the tournament report they're writing. My memory is garbage.

[contra]

I run Pontiff, but i think Blessed Alliance is a solid card if you don't like the WB-Human-Sweeper because it will also helps against TNN, Eldrazi etc. Overall if you search for a card under 5 Mana i would clearly think go with Palace Jailer, its only cc4, easily be uncounterable, removal on a body, combo with Displacer and draw cards eot (faster than confi etc.) overall a great package and one of the reasons even some DnT Players try Ancient Tombs.

There's no doubt that pontiff's ability is exactly what this deck wants, but the consensus is you can't reliably cast him with only only 4 caverns and 4 diamonds - both of which can't always produce black mana. Additionally you yourself agreed that ww is hard to produce consistently for prelate when there's just about twice as much mana to cast her (4 cavern, 4 mox, 5 plains, 3 karakas)

[contra]

My current list. Forsake the Worldly feels like an upgrade to seal or disenchant for this deck. Other amonkhet cards I'd consider would be Vizier of Deferment and Cast Out.

25 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
5 Plains

24 Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

11 Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Warping Wail

[LewisCBR]

This is my list


11 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 smugglers copter

25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 containment priest
1 endbringer
1 aven mindcensor

24 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

15 Sideboard

2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 pithing needle
2 Faerie Macabre
2 rest in peace
2 Disenchan
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 ratchet bomb
2 blessed alliance



How do you like the Petals over a card like Mox Diamond? I'm sure this has been debated before, but i'm new to the thread and didnt see anything about this choice in my quick couple minute search. In theory, i dont like the idea of a Chalice on 1 on Turn 1 off a Diamond taking up 4 of your opening cards, but i see a lot of lists running it anyways. Mox Diamond just makes so much more sense in a deck like Aggro Loam, where you can recur your discarded lands.

Also, did Swords ever become awkward with Chalice? I feel like there are some matchups where you want both, like Delver.

I'm mostly a Delver player, and an aggro player at heart, but i guess Delver basically is aggro. I built colorless Eldrazi Stompy as my second deck, but just one glance at these white lists has convinced me that this version is far superior, so i plan to build it real soon.

Thanks for any input.

[keys]

How do you like the Petals over a card like Mox Diamond? I'm sure this has been debated before, but i'm new to the thread and didnt see anything about this choice in my quick couple minute search. In theory, i dont like the idea of a Chalice on 1 on Turn 1 off a Diamond taking up 4 of your opening cards, but i see a lot of lists running it anyways. Mox Diamond just makes so much more sense in a deck like Aggro Loam, where you can recur your discarded lands.

Also, did Swords ever become awkward with Chalice? I feel like there are some matchups where you want both, like Delver.

I'm mostly a Delver player, and an aggro player at heart, but i guess Delver basically is aggro. I built colorless Eldrazi Stompy as my second deck, but just one glance at these white lists has convinced me that this version is far superior, so i plan to build it real soon.

Thanks for any input.

StP usually goes in when Chalice comes out (other Stompy decks, aggro decks with Abrupt Decay, D&T) so it isn't usually a problem. Versus Delver, you can run both, but I might leave out StP on the play hoping that a Chalice will stick. I've seen combinations of Dismember/Warping Wail/Spatial Contortion used as well.

As far as Mox Diamond, the deck needs permanent mana sources, and with such a high land count and semi-redundant manabase you can usually find something to discard. If there was a white spirit guide I'd probably run that. Lotus Petal seems ok.



I didn't see people mention this earlier, but I guess TS took 1st at a NRG event. Here's the interview with the pilot:

http://articles.nerdragegaming.com/qa-march-2017-ct-winner-peter-tragos/

Notable choices: 0 Jailer, 2 Gideon in SB, Priest & Revoker & Copter all mainboard.

Congrats to Pete

From Pete's interview: "Stoneforge Mystic is bad, Smuggler’s Copter is the truth, and I love the weird looks I get when I play it on turn 1."

The Thopter vs. SFM debate really interests me. SFM's power is well known. It's banned in Modern and is still a mainstay in Legacy D&T and Bant (although not all Dark Bant lists). Along with Terminus, it pretty much pushed Tribal aggro out of the format. Still, it's slow, and doesn't punch through TNN (public enemy #1). In my opinion, SFM takes this deck into a much more grindy direction, a la D&T.

Smuggler's Copter is faster (no equip cost). It offers virtual card advantage to a deck that can often get mana flooded/screwed. It flies over TNN (but dies to flipped Delver). When I first started playing with vehicles I would sometimes forget that creatures can crew the turn they come into play. Once I started to get the sequencing correct, Copter's value really started to show, particularly in a more aggressive version of the deck. Also, it's important to announce attack phases with respect to the loot effect and removal.

What is everyone else's experience with Copter?

[Kaono]

The Thopter vs. SFM debate really interests me. SFM's power is well known. It's banned in Modern and is still a mainstay in Legacy D&T and Bant (although not all Dark Bant lists). Along with Terminus, it pretty much pushed Tribal aggro out of the format. Still, it's slow, and doesn't punch through TNN (public enemy #1). In my opinion, SFM takes this deck into a much more grindy direction, a la D&T.

Smuggler's Copter is faster (no equip cost). It offers virtual card advantage to a deck that can often get mana flooded/screwed. It flies over TNN (but dies to flipped Delver). When I first started playing with vehicles I would sometimes forget that creatures can crew the turn they come into play. Once I started to get the sequencing correct, Copter's value really started to show, particularly in a more aggressive version of the deck. Also, it's important to announce attack phases with respect to the loot effect and removal.

What is everyone else's experience with Copter?

I still like Copter especially since the deck is desperate for CA/filtering now that Jailer has gotten worse. More impactful t1 plays are also necessary, which is why I run copter and SFM. With a Mox Diamond hand being able to drop SFM/Thalia or Copter/Chalice off of just a sol land too is so important for this deck. You never want to be playing from behind, and you're less likely to be Wastelanded if you've got a board presence early.

I used to play Revoker main, but you don't want to cast it t0 obviously and its disruption is less valuable to us since we're a stompy deck more than a taxing deck. We're not porting (and not always aggressively wastelanding) our opponents so shutting off a DRS isn't that valuable. To me it's just too weak, whereas SFM is another must answer threat that comes down early to crew Copter.

[metronome2charisma]

How do you like the Petals over a card like Mox Diamond? I'm sure this has been debated before, but i'm new to the thread and didnt see anything about this choice in my quick couple minute search. In theory, i dont like the idea of a Chalice on 1 on Turn 1 off a Diamond taking up 4 of your opening cards, but i see a lot of lists running it anyways. Mox Diamond just makes so much more sense in a deck like Aggro Loam, where you can recur your discarded lands.

Also, did Swords ever become awkward with Chalice? I feel like there are some matchups where you want both, like Delver.

I'm mostly a Delver player, and an aggro player at heart, but i guess Delver basically is aggro. I built colorless Eldrazi Stompy as my second deck, but just one glance at these white lists has convinced me that this version is far superior, so i plan to build it real soon.

Thanks for any input.

I don't play diamond because i only play 24 land and i need my land drops and can't generally afford to discard a land. I'm playing 4 lotus petal , instead of 3 Diamonds which makes having one in your opener more likely. Generally i'm using Lotus petal to power out a first turn Thalia or chalice and occasionally as a needed white source, letting my draws get me the land i need . The lower curve of the deck lets you naturally draw the land you need on time. I HAVE had small issues with petal making hands keepable but then getting mana screwed but guess thats just mana screw. I personally really like Lotus petal.

The question about STP has already been answered but i'll bring it in vs abrupt decay decks because they'll generally answer your chalice or you can use it when chalice isn't in play. I will side out 2 chalice on the draw against bug decks anyway so it isn't really a problem . Most other times i bring in the Swords the Chalices come out (other stomp decks , DnT, menfolk, ect.) You don't need to bring in swords for the delver match up because you have Displacer Containment priest as removal for most creatures, not to mention jitte. I've been having really good luck against delver lately so maybe its just me.This will be the list i'll run for a minute


12 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 smugglers copter

24 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 containment priest
1 aven mindcensor

24 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

15 Sideboard

2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 containment priest
2 Faerie Macabre
2 rest in peace
2 Disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 ratchet bomb
2 blessed alliance

[metronome2charisma]

With Top out of the format what changes does everyone expect to see/ make? These are just theories but i think big thalia gets better( is that possible?) because with top gone there won't be a deck playing a bunch of basics. Phyrexian revoker gets a little worse, because top was a BIG reason to have 3 of this guy main deck.. Thoughts?

[contra]

With Top out of the format what changes does everyone expect to see/ make? These are just theories but i think big thalia gets better( is that possible?) because with top gone there won't be a deck playing a bunch of basics. Phyrexian revoker gets a little worse, because top was a BIG reason to have 3 of this guy main deck.. Thoughts?

I think we'll have to wait and see tbh. There are a handful of decks we'll be happy to see have a resurgence such as S&T, storm, and SFM decks. On the other hand, I think we'll be seeing more lightning bolts being cast - which I've found to be absolutely abominable for this deck. Likewise with elves which should see an increase in play. Grixis delver will definitely be a DTB and I'd put that matchup at about 50/50.

I won't be dropping any revokers because of the ban. I'd wager that revoker will be even better in the new meta.

[contra]

On another note, I switched from mox diamonds to lotus petals. I started by asking myself every time I drew a diamond if I'd rather have a petal and it was always yes. It's a huge difference, and it's made the deck so much more fluid. I found myself always regretting dropping a land to diamond, only to later miss a crucial land drop and subsequently feeding that damned elf shaman. Just ask yourself next time you draw a diamond - wouldn't you rather have a petal? I know it's a contentious topic, and I used to be on the other side of the fence, but I think playing 3 cities helps mitigate the "loss" of permanent mana diamond sometimes provided.

25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
5 Plains

11 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

24 Creature
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

SIDEBOARD
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Rest in Peace
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Blessed Alliance

[Kaono]

One thing crossing my mind is now that Counterbalance is dead do we need Cavern of Souls? It's obviously still great versus Delver, but there are going to be a lot more Wastelands running around and this deck is particularly vulnerable to mana denial. If we cut the Caverns we can have 8-9 Plains or start running some number of Wastes (which also shores up Blood Moon).

I personally know that for all the times I've dropped an uncounterable threat vs Delver, I've had other matches where I was just wastelanded out of the game. More basics would also help vs D&T where Cavern basically is just a dual land.

I'm also considering adding Sanctum Prelate back to the mainboard. With no Miracles and less Decay Prelate on 1 should be as back-breaking as ever.

[MD.Ghost]

One thing crossing my mind is now that Counterbalance is dead do we need Cavern of Souls? It's obviously still great versus Delver, but there are going to be a lot more Wastelands running around and this deck is particularly vulnerable to mana denial. If we cut the Caverns we can have 8-9 Plains or start running some number of Wastes (which also shores up Blood Moon).

I personally know that for all the times I've dropped an uncounterable threat vs Delver, I've had other matches where I was just wastelanded out of the game. More basics would also help vs D&T where Cavern basically is just a dual land.


I like cavern because besides the old Miracles you will see enough other blue decks and you want humans+eldrazi stick, getting something important daze feels bad...

I may be the only one but Pontiff gets really better now (Elves/TNN/more fast Combo: Goblintoken) and Cavern works good to splash it. I currently run 6 Plains and 3 Moxes so even Blood Moon isn't so good vs this deck.

I tinker around with Mindcensor and C.Priest Main - aiming against Elves&Meta Shift :tongue:

[contra]

One thing crossing my mind is now that Counterbalance is dead do we need Cavern of Souls?

I wouldn't interpret the banning of SDT as a decrease in decks with permission. I'd even say we'll be seeing more daze in the days to come. Don't forget that FOW accounts for 4 of the 12 cards that we can all agree define legacy.

[Kaono]

Note my suggestion was just as much predicated on an increase in Wasteland as it was a decrease in softlocks like counterbalance.

I'm not saying permission is dead. I'm saying there's going to be more wastelands out there, which I have lost to just as much as counterspells.

Given all the mana acceleration in this deck I have never had aproblem playing around Daze. If my opp. wants to 2-1 themselves with Force I'm also fine with that.

edit: Thraben University/D&T players are also considering cutting Cavern -- to quote:


I’m not actually sure that Cavern of Souls is good anymore; trading creatures one for one with counterspells is fine, it was just the fear of getting locked out by a Counterbalance that pushed players to try two or three copies of the card. If I were to play mono-white, I’d try other lands in this slot for a little while. Horizon Canopy, Mishra’s Factory,
and Ghost Quarter all seem like reasonable inclusions. Cavern sort of functions as a dual land with upside in the splash builds, so it might still be fine there.

[contra]

Note my suggestion was just as much predicated on an increase in Wasteland as it was a decrease in softlocks like counterbalance.

I'm not saying permission is dead. I'm saying there's going to be more wastelands out there, which I have lost to just as much as counterspells.

Given all the mana acceleration in this deck I have never had aproblem playing around Daze. If my opp. wants to 2-1 themselves with Force I'm also fine with that.

edit: Thraben University/D&T players are also considering cutting Cavern -- to quote:

Cavern is much different in our deck than in DnT. They have vial to combat counters and more threats than we do. Trading '2-1' a la FOW is not a winning proposition for us and while our mana ramp often allows us to play around daze by say - playing a sfm off a tomb and plain as opposed to that 3 drop, it's obviously just much better to power out that 3 drop with a cavern.

I personally don't think there will be more land hate than usual... lots of people will be playing super greedy land bases. Also we have mega game against all the bloodmoon decks (see big red, painter)

If I do make any changes it'll be -1 city +1 wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
5 Plains

[iostream]

One thing crossing my mind is now that Counterbalance is dead do we need Cavern of Souls? It's obviously still great versus Delver, but there are going to be a lot more Wastelands running around and this deck is particularly vulnerable to mana denial. If we cut the Caverns we can have 8-9 Plains or start running some number of Wastes (which also shores up Blood Moon).

I personally know that for all the times I've dropped an uncounterable threat vs Delver, I've had other matches where I was just wastelanded out of the game. More basics would also help vs D&T where Cavern basically is just a dual land.

I'm also considering adding Sanctum Prelate back to the mainboard. With no Miracles and less Decay Prelate on 1 should be as back-breaking as ever.Having more basics doesn't help as much versus Wasteland as you might think. Our "fair game", where we don't cast TKS until turn 4 or whatever, is not even remotely powerful enough for Legacy. That means two things:

1) Any decent player isn't going to blow an early Wasteland on a non-Sol land.
2) We need to run out our Sol lands early almost always, even if it means that we aren't playing around Wasteland.

Cutting Caverns for basics therefore doesn't really improve your resiliency against Wasteland while making you softer to things like Daze and increasing how often you get mana screwed since Cavern often needs to tap for both W and C.

Thalia Stompy has more game against mana denial compared to Colorless Eldrazi because it has more impactful things like the two Thalias that it can cast off of 1-2 lands + possibly a Mox. If you are truly afraid of Wasteland, I think you ought to play a lower curve filled with easy to cast, cheap Humans or cheap colorless cards like Copter, not really-hard-to-cast cards like Prelate.

[Kaono]

Having more basics doesn't help as much versus Wasteland as you might think. Our "fair game", where we don't cast TKS until turn 4 or whatever, is not even remotely powerful enough for Legacy. That means two things:

1) Any decent player isn't going to blow an early Wasteland on a non-Sol land.
2) We need to run out our Sol lands early almost always, even if it means that we aren't playing around Wasteland.

Cutting Caverns for basics therefore doesn't really improve your resiliency against Wasteland while making you softer to things like Daze and increasing how often you get mana screwed since Cavern often needs to tap for both W and C.

I've opened multiple hands with cavern, sol land and 3 drop where my opponent has wasted the sol land or cavern as their opening play leaving me mana screwed off of either a color or fast mana. Leading basic plains into sol land has been a very common play of mine.

Maybe it's just my playstyle, but I heavily prefer going basic, basic, small threat, sol land, big threat -- using mox diamond to speed up that line when possible. Maybe it's just my luck, but when I run out a sol land t1 my opponent wastelands it and my large threats get stranded.


Thalia Stompy has more game against mana denial compared to Colorless Eldrazi because it has more impactful things like the two Thalias that it can cast off of 1-2 lands + possibly a Mox. If you are truly afraid of Wasteland, I think you ought to play a lower curve filled with easy to cast, cheap Humans or cheap colorless cards like Copter, not really-hard-to-cast cards like Prelate.

I play all the above, and prelate is really not that hard to cast. Regardless, getting stuck on 2-3 lands while TKS and Smasher sit in your hand is not fun.

Anyway, seems you all disagree with me so I won't belabor the point further. I'll test it out and let you know how it goes.

[contra]

@Kaono
I think playing more plains could be a great idea. I'd say something like the base below could work and would even support a few council's judgements out the side.

25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
8 Snow-Covered Plains

[metronome2charisma]

@Kaono
I think playing more plains could be a great idea. I'd say something like the base below could work and would even support a few council's judgements out the side.

25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
8 Snow-Covered Plains

I could get behind something like this


4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
2 cavern of souls
7 plains

cavern is just too good.

[darkgh0st]

Just getting back into legacy again. Had this deck put aside. Why did Palace Jailers drop off lists? Wouldn't he be better now with the suggested heavier basic land count?

[contra]

Just getting back into legacy again. Had this deck put aside. Why did Palace Jailers drop off lists? Wouldn't he be better now with the suggested heavier basic land count?

Jailer is good, but there are too many true names romping around these days. We're also not increasing the number of white sources for white human creatures by changing caverns for plains.

[MD.Ghost]

With the new meta (or for the moment "chaos") we might see a lot of new decks crawling around and fight for the empty throne. Elves, Show&Tell, ANT&Co, Blade Decks, Delver, Lands mixed with the current stuff of DnT and all the BUG decks.

Good news? More Combo is nice for us, but more Lands and Blade (TNN!) isn't so hot and we'll see a lot of random stuff and fair midrange/creature decks (which can be hard for stompy because you can't lock them out easily).

I currently play without SfM (while it is okay vs fair decks its super slow etc.) and brewed around a lot. I currently really like Containment Priest at Main (S&S, Elves, Vial, GW-Zenith etc.) and Mindcensor (Elves, ANT, Manadenial, SfM) and "Flash" is very good because we have now only Sorcery speed Sweepers.

I am unsure with one or two slots at main/side for the current "chaos meta". I want to discuss them or at least a new spot light after SDT-Ban.

Palace Jailer - i loved him at the past, but overall he isn't hot against swarm creature decks, grixis delver or TNN. Some of you already dismissed him and i am sadly unsure about him at main/side. 2WW can also sometimes be bad. Drawing cards is nice but you can fall behind if used wrong (see decks above).

Phyrexian Metamorph - Can copy all the spicy stuff from our Smasher/TKS over targets from Opponent range from BSkull, to Gofy, Big Cheat Fatties till TNN - but is dead on an empty field or if you only can copy thalia. CC"3" colorless is also a nice deal - and can be blinked with Displacer for other targets.

Smuggler's Copter - some like him, but we will see more Artifact Removal (Blade Decks), more Delver/Bolt (only 1:1 trades) and its a bad topdeck in most cases. What is good is that it survives sorcery sweepers and is cc2 colorless so you can nearly cast it every time.

Crucible of Worlds - lines up well with Wastelands, City, Mox, Tax&Manadenial with our Thalia(s) and every Opponent that tries to trow Wastelands at you (rise of delver/land decks?). But can't beat your opponent and might be a useless card in hand or is cc4 under thalia 1.0.

and finally a freak card like Selfless Squire: More or less usless alone (see other cards above) but a real killer if you are behind. Works well against any Swarm (more Empty-Combo-Token around without Terminus), any alpha-Strike, any big beater till (UR)Burn and is a perma-Fog with Displacer. As a 3W-Human is also really perfect manawise and nobody will have it on his radar and as i said above flash is huge too.

Feel free to discuss it :)

[metronome2charisma]

With the new meta (or for the moment "chaos") we might see a lot of new decks crawling around and fight for the empty throne. Elves, Show&Tell, ANT&Co, Blade Decks, Delver, Lands mixed with the current stuff of DnT and all the BUG decks.

Good news? More Combo is nice for us, but more Lands and Blade (TNN!) isn't so hot and we'll see a lot of random stuff and fair midrange/creature decks (which can be hard for stompy because you can't lock them out easily).

I currently play without SfM (while it is okay vs fair decks its super slow etc.) and brewed around a lot. I currently really like Containment Priest at Main (S&S, Elves, Vial, GW-Zenith etc.) and Mindcensor (Elves, ANT, Manadenial, SfM) and "Flash" is very good because we have now only Sorcery speed Sweepers.

I am unsure with one or two slots at main/side for the current "chaos meta". I want to discuss them or at least a new spot light after SDT-Ban.

Palace Jailer - i loved him at the past, but overall he isn't hot against swarm creature decks, grixis delver or TNN. Some of you already dismissed him and i am sadly unsure about him at main/side. 2WW can also sometimes be bad. Drawing cards is nice but you can fall behind if used wrong (see decks above).

Phyrexian Metamorph - Can copy all the spicy stuff from our Smasher/TKS over targets from Opponent range from BSkull, to Gofy, Big Cheat Fatties till TNN - but is dead on an empty field or if you only can copy thalia. CC"3" colorless is also a nice deal - and can be blinked with Displacer for other targets.

Smuggler's Copter - some like him, but we will see more Artifact Removal (Blade Decks), more Delver/Bolt (only 1:1 trades) and its a bad topdeck in most cases. What is good is that it survives sorcery sweepers and is cc2 colorless so you can nearly cast it every time.

Crucible of Worlds - lines up well with Wastelands, City, Mox, Tax&Manadenial with our Thalia(s) and every Opponent that tries to trow Wastelands at you (rise of delver/land decks?). But can't beat your opponent and might be a useless card in hand or is cc4 under thalia 1.0.

and finally a freak card like Selfless Squire: More or less usless alone (see other cards above) but a real killer if you are behind. Works well against any Swarm (more Empty-Combo-Token around without Terminus), any alpha-Strike, any big beater till (UR)Burn and is a perma-Fog with Displacer. As a 3W-Human is also really perfect manawise and nobody will have it on his radar and as i said above flash is huge too.

Feel free to discuss it :)

I have always felt pretty confident against lands .Ive found the matchup pretty easy between Displacer, Thalia 2.0,Karakas and chalice they almost always get the job done. Am i wrong or am i doing something differently?

[MD.Ghost]

I have always felt pretty confident against lands .Ive found the matchup pretty easy between Displacer, Thalia 2.0,Karakas and chalice they almost always get the job done. Am i wrong or am i doing something differently?

I not talked only about the land matchup and overall you are right we have solid solutions against any land.deck and my score against various land decks are positive - but still be carefull lands can also have very broken starts that will crush us (and in this case, neither solution discussed above will really help).

I wished for some brainstorm/feedback for the cards i mentioned - some are discussed here (long ago) but the deck a) changed a lot of stuff (in the early days we had lodestone golem) and b) the miracle/topless meta game is a wild new place and i try to find the last piece of the puzzle (as i mentioned, i currently have C.Priest and Mindcensor MD for various rising decks).

[metronome2charisma]

With the new meta (or for the moment "chaos") we might see a lot of new decks crawling around and fight for the empty throne. Elves, Show&Tell, ANT&Co, Blade Decks, Delver, Lands mixed with the current stuff of DnT and all the BUG decks.

Good news? More Combo is nice for us, but more Lands and Blade (TNN!) isn't so hot and we'll see a lot of random stuff and fair midrange/creature decks (which can be hard for stompy because you can't lock them out easily).

I currently play without SfM (while it is okay vs fair decks its super slow etc.) and brewed around a lot. I currently really like Containment Priest at Main (S&S, Elves, Vial, GW-Zenith etc.) and Mindcensor (Elves, ANT, Manadenial, SfM) and "Flash" is very good because we have now only Sorcery speed Sweepers.

I am unsure with one or two slots at main/side for the current "chaos meta". I want to discuss them or at least a new spot light after SDT-Ban.

Palace Jailer - i loved him at the past, but overall he isn't hot against swarm creature decks, grixis delver or TNN. Some of you already dismissed him and i am sadly unsure about him at main/side. 2WW can also sometimes be bad. Drawing cards is nice but you can fall behind if used wrong (see decks above).

Phyrexian Metamorph - Can copy all the spicy stuff from our Smasher/TKS over targets from Opponent range from BSkull, to Gofy, Big Cheat Fatties till TNN - but is dead on an empty field or if you only can copy thalia. CC"3" colorless is also a nice deal - and can be blinked with Displacer for other targets.

Smuggler's Copter - some like him, but we will see more Artifact Removal (Blade Decks), more Delver/Bolt (only 1:1 trades) and its a bad topdeck in most cases. What is good is that it survives sorcery sweepers and is cc2 colorless so you can nearly cast it every time.

Crucible of Worlds - lines up well with Wastelands, City, Mox, Tax&Manadenial with our Thalia(s) and every Opponent that tries to trow Wastelands at you (rise of delver/land decks?). But can't beat your opponent and might be a useless card in hand or is cc4 under thalia 1.0.

and finally a freak card like Selfless Squire: More or less usless alone (see other cards above) but a real killer if you are behind. Works well against any Swarm (more Empty-Combo-Token around without Terminus), any alpha-Strike, any big beater till (UR)Burn and is a perma-Fog with Displacer. As a 3W-Human is also really perfect manawise and nobody will have it on his radar and as i said above flash is huge too.

Feel free to discuss it :)

All those cards are good and i would play them all in certain builds as far as copter goes the card has been great. Not a fan of jailer with the rise in bug decks that will probably be going around,i'm currently playing mind censor as a 1 of and liking it. Crucible of worlds is a great card but i think with an expected meta shift towards more creature centric beatdown/ tempo decks and combo its not the place i wanna be right now as it isn't really impactful right away. I think if delver , bug and elves get more popular something like 3 holy light out of the side board may be the move .

On another note i think blood moon gets WAY better and will start to see a lot more sb action. (As if we don't see the card all the time anyway.)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

edit: Thraben University/D&T players are also considering cutting Cavern

That was something that was said, yes. No, we are not dropping Cavern. UWx Stoneforge lists are popping up, Delver is everywhere, and various SnS lists also. Cavern isn't going anywhere as far as DnT goes.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Barook]

So why are the lists I'm seeing not running any Ballistas? I've seen several people ask on the thread, but I've never seen an answer.

It's good enough for the Vintage variant, so why wouldn't it be good enough for Legacy?

[metronome2charisma]

So why are the lists I'm seeing not running any Ballistas? I've seen several people ask on the thread, but I've never seen an answer.

It's good enough for the Vintage variant, so why wouldn't it be good enough for Legacy?

Hey Barook! nice to see you in this thread! I think the main reason we haven't seen a lot of Ballista running around in this deck is because the list is VERY tight as is. I can't really speak for anyone else's list but my list in particular (which i've done VERY well with ) doesn't really need them. In the new meta where top isn't a thing anymore and creatures are a bigger deal maybe the revokers come out for ballistas but before the banning there just wasn't a good reason to run it.

[Barook]

Hey Barook! nice to see you in this thread! I think the main reason we haven't seen a lot of Ballista running around in this deck is because the list is VERY tight as is. I can't really speak for anyone else's list but my list in particular (which i've done VERY well with ) doesn't really need them. In the new meta where top isn't a thing anymore and creatures are a bigger deal maybe the revokers come out for ballistas but before the banning there just wasn't a good reason to run it.
With Miracles gone, I definitely want to go back to play Legacy, but I can't decide what deck to use. I'm leaning towards a Stompy list with white for Karakas/Displacer (which should be good in the new meta), so it's between White Eldrazi and Thalia Stomply. The inability of White Eldrazi to deal with TNN worries me, though.

Ballista is definitely a card I want to try out since it gives you crowd control and reach. Since the deck runs SFM, I could easily see a Basilisk Collar slipping into the 75 for the creature instagib combo (bonus points for SFM getting around Chalice @1).

With Elves and TNN getting more relevance, shouldn't Holy Light be considered in the SB? This is probably the deck that could get the most mileage out of it due to fast mana.

[metronome2charisma]

Ballista is definitely a cardI want to try out since it gives you crowd control and reach. Since the deck runs SFM, I could easily see a Basilisk Collar slipping into the 75 for the creature instagib combo (bonus points for SFM getting around Chalice @1).

With Elves and TNN getting more relevance, shouldn't Holy Light be considered in the SB? This is probably the deck that could get the most mileage out of it due to fast mana.

i could see running Ballista for sure.I don't run Stoneforge in my 75 but Basilisk Collar does seem good if you're running both SFM and Ballista .I had mentioned trying Holy Light in the board a page back. it seems great.
I think if i ran Ballistas i would probably cut the Copters and try it as a 2 of.
One last thing . Being a former Eldrazi player that consistently did well i can say that this deck is better right now (in paper .in the NE of the us)

[Barook]

i could see running Ballista for sure.I don't run Stoneforge in my 75 but Basilisk Collar does seem good if you're running both SFM and Ballista .I had mentioned trying Holy Light in the board a page back. it seems great.
I think if i ran Ballistas i would probably cut the Copters and try it as a 2 of.
One last thing . Being a former Eldrazi player that consistently did well i can say that this deck is better right now (in paper .in the NE of the us)
Been goldfishing a bit and screwing around with the numbers. Ballista seems at least very good on paper. Collar would also enable lifegain much earlier than Batterskull, which could be a dealbreaker vs aggressive decks.

Edit: First strike and trample are also some bitching combinations with Collar's deathtouch. Either you instagib them in combat or you get super-trample where 1 point of damage is enough to finish off a creature. Alongside "instagib mode" Ballista, I do like the idea of Collar more and more. There's some serious potential there (as SFM target).

[MD.Ghost]

@played the following list at mkm frankfurt with a nice amount of 437 players and 10 rounds + top 8. I ended up disappointed at 85 place so not a very detailed report. My list was trimmed to catch most of the expected metagame that finally entered top 8 (ant, elves, sneak&show, br redanimator, stoneblade, grixis delver, food chain, aggro loam) - i clearly was prepared for combo and the top tables showed a lot of ant, elves and show&tell.

// 60 Maindeck

// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Smuggler's Copter

// 25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Containment Priest
2 Aven Mindcensor

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Palace Jailer
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance
SB: 2 Disenchant

I faced the following matchups:

R1 vs UR Delver 2:0 (G1 key was Chalice and overrun TNN-Wall)
R2 vs Loam/Rock Brew 1:2 (slightly missplay G3 but also very unlucky to find no karakas/plains/mox in 2 rounds and die to marit with blessed alliance in hand..)
R3 vs RG Lands 0:2 (G1 i made a missplay which cost me the game and G2 he locked me out of the game fast enough)
R4 vs Elves 2:0 (G1 Chalice, C.Priest, Thalia HC all the good stuff, G2 was harder but i finally hit the nail with Pontiff and enough lockpieces around)
R5 vs Burn 2:1 (not an easy matchup because they can also be blazing fast but overall if you are able to get enough hate on the field it works)
R6 vs RG Lands 2:1 (beatable but very annoying matchup, mindcensor, thalia HC etc worked well, also Revoker against Mox if they have multiple "useless" lands like maze/tabernacle)
R7 vs Bgr Loam Pox 2:0 (G1 first time copter was really good because he survives every sorcery sweeper and allowed constant pressure)
R8 vs Burn 2:1 (as i mentioned before - not so easy and important to find the right mix of lockpieces and creatures)
R9 vs Grixis Delver 0:2 (wasn't aggressiv enough against him G1 which finally result into loss.. G2 mulligan 5 and unable to cast pontiff)
R10 vs ANT 1:2 (finally combo but he not only was experienced with this matchup thanks to his teammate he also managed to get 2x Turn 1 kills which i can't beat without mindbreak trap stuff...)

Notes:
-Overall i was not happy with my matchups and the fact that every slightly mistake immediately result into a painful defeat
-Core cards overall worked fine, i was happy with Thalia HC (super strong against lands/elves etc.) and also the 4 flash creatures worked fine
-still not sold about copter and 1 copy simply wasn't enough for a test but i had at least one great game with the little vehicle
-after one year of games with pontiff i finally found a game which i was unable to cast him (Grixis) to swing the game into my favour
-i think i will go back to 2 copies of stoneforge and 1 batterskull at my 75 cards, because even if you are build a list against the meta you will face a lot of random (fair) matchups and sometimes need a backup plan or some more cards with impact.
-if you look at top8 decks, only food chain is really hard, stoneblade is okay if you have enough stuff against TNN (flying/evasion/removal)

------------------------------
@Walking Ballista: i don't like it, because as metronome2charisma mentioned deck space is very tight - it basically comes down to: do you want stoneforge, copters, c.priest, jailer etc. main to get the 2-3 slots. I don't like Ballista because it will only be good at 2+ counters and it not improves the matchups against any combo deck or roadblocks like TNN. It can shine against Elves and DnT but my score against both decks are still good enough. I also dislike that it can't combo with Displacer (C.Priest/Jailer) and artifact hate is live against us and ballista also get catched from E.Explosives (clear the field of chalice/mox already).

@Basilisk Collar: this is a card i like more, especially with Stoneforge and as barook mentioned its nice with a lot of first strike + trample beaters and will help to race against aggressive decks. Search/Play/Equip/Attack is also faster compared to Batterskull.

@Selfless Squire: had a lot of discussion before the tournament about this card, but finally i had not the balls to smash the card into my pile of cards but i still think it is clearly underrated and can swing games around in our favour.

@Meta-Game: Even if i missed a good tournament run i think the deck should be strong enough for the upcoming meta game (even stronger at "combo"MTGO)

[iostream]

To comment on Ballista, this is something I've been testing myself, but I haven't gone to any big tournaments yet, so I've been reluctant to say too much. But since we're all talking about it...

From my testing, it seems to play really well and makes many creature-based matchups much easier. Being able to pick off x/1's, most notably Baleful Strix, Young Pyromancer, and Wirewood Symbiote, is really useful - this is what we dreamed Warping Wail could do, but now our removal spell can crack back! It also is a way to randomly win if your opponent manages to stabilize at low life, which can happen with these sorts of decks. Finally, it also makes the builds featuring 3 City of Traitors look better, since it's another good thing to do with your mana - i.e. flood insurance.

Addressing concerns about Ballista:

1) Deck space is not tight at all; I really don't understand this point. I agree with Tragos's assessment in this interview (http://articles.nerdragegaming.com/qa-march-2017-ct-winner-peter-tragos/) that there's really only maybe 47 core cards, so there's plenty of space to mess around.
2) I understand it's not good versus combo decks, but by and large, we already destroy most combo decks. When I've brought this to tournaments, I've always had the hardest time against fairer matchups, specifically the ones where either Chalice or 2-drop Thalia isn't very powerful (so D+T, controlling BUG decks of most varieties, and so on).
3) Artifact hate: as a Chalice deck, Disenchants will always be live against us, and I'd rather they Disenchant my Ballista than my Chalice. Engineered Explosives is horrible against us; if my opponent wants to spend a turn doing that instead of dealing with Reality Smasher or TKS or whatever, they can be my guest. Also, 2-drop Thalia usually turns off EE for 0.

Playing with Ballista makes me wonder whether or not we should just stop running all the filler tax bears, get back to our Stompy roots, and aggro out. I'm tired of Revoker and Containment Priest looking sad in front of some measly 2/1's or whatever.

An analogy: When OGW first came out and people were trying to figure out how Colorless Eldrazi ought to be built, there was a lot of stuff like Thorn of Amethyst and Phyrexian Revoker in maindecks that eventually ended up being cut or relegated to the sideboard since their utility was not worth the loss in aggressive potential. People figured out there were more percentage points to be gained in trying to just kill your opponent instead of trying to disrupt them even further. In this context, the real reasons to play white are the two Thalias and Displacer, specifically because they are unique disruptive effects which are also excellent in combat in the sense that they beat the most common creatures one-on-one. Every other white creature we are playing does not have this property. It's possible that those other creatures are just distractions - perhaps good sideboard material (e.g. Containment Priest), but bad maindeck material since they're so unlikely to make you kill your opponent any faster.

This line of reasoning suggests that we should reconsider some of the cards that have traditionally only seen play in Colorless Eldrazi - in particular, Endless One. Besides being a great beater that eats removal and provides further flood insurance, it's getting better positioned since the Fatal Push hype isn't as huge as it once was. It's true that we can't easily make it a 10/10 like Colorless can, or play multiples out through Eye of Ugin, but maybe it's still good enough as a 5/5 or a 6/6.

4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
3 Reality Smasher
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
3 Wasteland

Sideboard

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant (or maybe Forsake the Worldly?)
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst

I don't know if playing the deck like this is just making it a "worse Colorless Eldrazi", but I want to find out since I think Displacer and both Thalias, by and large, are really good and fix a lot of the weaknesses that Colorless suffers from.

[contra]

I just noticed @Rmosto last week quietly updated the sample decklist on the first page of the thread with the notable absence of displacer (see below)

I like the switch from lodestone to smasher, and I feel like if you're running with 3 cities maxing out on smasher makes sense.

@iostream
I've been having pretty abysmal results in the new meta where the premier deck we'd previously preyed on is gone and I do think Thalia stompy will need to adapt. However, I don't think endless one and ballista fit the bill.

Holy Light is a card I had previously wrote off because I <3 revoker, but revoker is the first thing to come out against BUG decks running TNN and also grixis where holy light really... shines. It's also a trump against elves. I think I'm going to try 2 holy lights and 1 blessed alliance.



Sample Decklist

Lands: 26

6 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland

Spells: 10

3 Mox Diamond
1 Warping Wail
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void

Creatures: 24

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

SB: 15

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Rest in Peace
3 Dismember
2 Warping Wail
2 Winter Orb


Rmosto

here's a concoction I threw together that I'll be testing:

// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mox Diamond

// 23 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Aven Mindcensor

// 2 Instant
2 Warping Wail

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
5 Plains


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst

// 5 Creature
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Selfless Squire
SB: 2 Sanctum Prelate

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

// 4 Instant
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Holy Light
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance

// 2 Land
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls

[darkgh0st]

I was playing this deck before putting it away for a year and a half and just getting back into it now.

Peter Tragon's 27 core cards makes a lot of sense, but as the meta sped up with Miracles out, we also need to adapt.

- Going up to 4 Mox Diamond - From my testing, 3 was the right number pre-miracles. But as decks are now faster with miracles out of the picture, we also want to play faster. That 1st turn Thalia or Chalice followed by a Reality Smasher or Thought-Knot Seer advances our game so much.

- Going up to 4 Reality Smasher - because it closes out the game very fast

Creature (25)
2x Containment Priest
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x flex slots

Artifact (10)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Karakas
3x Plains
4x flex land slots


Other notes:

- 3 Thalia, Heretic Cathars - I'm reluctant on having the 4th one, unless it gets proven that 4 is the right number.

- Containment Priests - It is sad to have a 2cc 2/2 beater in non-relevant matchups, is live with Displacer (though slow). He is there for Elves, and maybe SnS and Reanimator.

- 2 Karakas - I'm looking to up these to 3 as the legendary rule doesn't seem to affect these much with the Mox Diamonds.

- No Stoneforge Mystics main - I considered these cards to be slow for what the deck wants to achieve. SFM - Batterskull is 2 turns before you can swing for (only) 4, with the lifegain being currently irrelevant. SFM - Jitte/Sword is likewise. It is possible that they should be slotted in the SB for grindy matchups.

- Phyrexian Revokers - I think they really should be in the sideboard, but can be slotted in the flex slots if meta calls for it.

- 4 flex slots, 4 flex land slots - These can be meta dependent and where you would consider if you want to splash another color, go deeper white, or have more utility lands (Wasteland, Mishra's Factory). I currently have Eldrazi Obligator and Battlefield Forge in test as another fast closer (but irrelevant on swarm decks. Trading this vs a Strix is an okay move as it makes way for TKS and Smasher, but feels bad anyways). These can also be Palace Jailers (which should be counted as removal, and I still prefer this even in a meta with TNNs), with more basic lands allowing you to gain access to more white cards. These can also be Lodestone Golems to shore up the Food Chain matchup, but clashes with Smasher.

- 2 Umezawa's Jitte - these feel extremely slow as it costs 4 (to 5) mana before you can use them and is easily negated by removal (to creature or Jitte). Maybe switching Walking Ballistas over these.

- What I like most about this deck is that it can win with two lands (one being a sol land).


Testing vs decks:

- I've tested a lot vs Grixis Delver, Elves, and Lands before putting this deck aside. The inclusion of Palace Jailer has helped me a lot vs Grixis Delver compared to not having it before. We're able to beat Elves and Lands comfortably with this deck.

- I've tested vs the MKM top 8 Food Chain list. Being disruptive and aggressive wins you a lot of games vs it. I prioritize being aggressive over Chalice @ 1 in this matchup since both Thalias can do quite the damage early game. But sometimes, they just win out of nowhere.

- I've also tested vs the Czech Pile and feel quite comfortable with that matchup. They don't have Daze, so you can comfortably name Eldrazi with the Cavern and leave the Thalias to be countered. Strix itself is fine and can be blinked to get damage through. Post-board can get harder as they have access to the Waste-Loam lock.

- Those are about what my meta consist of and I haven't tested against anything else.


The Sideboard is currently being tweaked.

[Kaono]

I've been testing Ballista as a 3-of and have liked it so far.

Now that Miracles is gone, the premier card I played Warping Wail for (Terminus) is no more. It still snags the occasional Painful Truths/Hymn/Infernal Tutor, but I think our MU is fine vs those decks anyway so it's become a mediocre removal spell that occasionally makes a 1/1.

Ballista can be used as removal like WW (I've cast it for 2 to immediately snipe a YP multiple times already) but this deck hits 4 mana so easily and has problems with flooding that Ballista quickly takes over games.

I've also realized that Jitte might not necessarily be required in the deck anymore if we're running Ballista, and have trimmed my stoneforge package to only Basilisk Collar and Batterskull as an experiment. Jitte had problems getting stonewalled by Wirewood Symbiote or random stuff like Cavern Harpy which Ballista mows down with no problem.

I'm still testing Containment Priest mainboard too, so it's kind of redundant to have two mana sink creature kill combos in Priest/Displacer and Ballista/Collar but all the cards are useful on their own so I think there's some argument to having both.

[metronome2charisma]

Played at redcaps corner on wednesday went 3-0-1 and played at stomping grounds tonight 4-0 .
Played against
burn 2-1
burn 2-0
show and tell 2-1
i.d.
show and tell 2-1
lands 2-0
enchantress 2-1
u/r delver 2-1
Tried out walking ballista as a 1 of ,took out a revoker. It seemed good but i'm not sure if its something i think the deck needs or not but its certainly powerfull and could possibly make the cut for the main board and DEFINITELY in the board .
As far a replacing jitte with Ballista goes i don't think thats the direction i'll be taking simply because the Jitte life gain ability is very relevant ESPECIALLY in a deck playing ancient tombs . i can definitely see your logic but jitte is just so strong.
Tried out 2 holy light in the board tonight over 1 ratchet bomb and 1 blessed alliance. didn't cast them so i can't speak on the effectiveness.
As far as changing MY list goes i don't really see any major changes happening anytime soon . "If it aint broke don't fix it"

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Edit: whoops

[metronome2charisma]

A friend of mine asked how important i thought Copter was to the deck and if he could replace it with Walking Ballista.
Copter is in the deck to help you get cards, as the deck doesn't have any real card advantage/ filter. (obviously) but the main advantages of copter(most of the time) was blocking a delver and avoiding sorcery speed removal .
Walking ballista serves an entirely different role but does it so well its hard to ignore. The reach he provides is great as well as the potential removal.I think as a 2 of its a fine card to play if you don't like copter. It does give you even more ways to deal with creature matches , such as delver,elves, eldrazi and DnT. IF i was to cut the copters for ballistas (which might be the right call for the new meta) i would go back up to 3 Revoker mb. (because i'm playing a Walking Ballista in place of 1 of them )

After some thought I think I'm gunna try a couple things out . Heres what i'm gunna test out when the last Walking Ballista comes in the mail.

10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte

26 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 containment priest
2 Walking Ballista
1 aven mindcensor

24 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

15 Sideboard

2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Faerie Macabre
2 rest in peace
2 Disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 blessed alliance
2 holy light
1 containment priest

[contra]

Haven't been able to make it to redcaps lately - just been playing the following list online. It's a hybrid of white eldrazi and thalia stompy with eye of ugins and mimics. I've had more success with it than the standard list because it's more aggressive. Mimic facilitates broken eldrazi lines like mimic - tks - smasher. It's also an additional turn-1 play that can be cast off of the majority of the lands. The eye of ugins support 25% of the deck and can just be thrown to a diamond in some cases.

Copter is an auto-include at this point. Same with the full playset of smashers and 3 cities. Palace jailer has been the shit - 2 feels like the right number.

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
5 Plains
2 Eye of Ugin

// 25 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Palace Jailer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter

// 15 Sideboard
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Selfless Squire

[MD.Ghost]

@contra: While i like the idea of beeing more aggressiv and mimic itself can be good (played with different eldrazi shells lately and Eye Mimic into TKS/Smasher starts are still bonkers) i don't get it why you only include 3 Mimics - the card is only good at the start and a bad topdeck (one of the issues the deck already has with copters/mox/lands/copies of thalia/chalice etc.) so if Mimic than the Playset to get max. value of droping it Turn 1-2 and follow up with bigger Eldrazi. Playset Smasher seems right with Mimic and Eyes - its still a superior beater in many cases.

Sadly without Wastelands both Thalias will suffer a bit because you can't full abuse the manadenial idea and your opponent will be able to get out of the softlock more often. Last note on Copter - i get it that it can be good, but i think Jitte is still the beater deal. Both are cc2, both are useless alone, Jitte needs 2 mana for equip, copter needs a creature (that can't attack/block). Copter might be good if you can filter cards and fly over TNN but Jitte with First Strikers or Trample Creatures are still superior and each mode is needed - it is also removal, displacer and jailer are okay but 2 more cards that can interact with the field of your opponent are also good. Turn 1 drop into Turn 2 Jitte and Attack is also a huge step in the right direction against creature decks. Copter itself feels "okay" in most cases but i think it never feels "broken" enough.

I would run contras build with:

-1 Mox (3 seems solid enough even with a faster meta)
+1 Mimic
-2 Copter (as explained above - with 2 Jailers you also have cardadvantage)
+2 Jitte

Playset Mimic will be more aggressiv, Jitte is a backup card.

I like that you test the 1off Squire at Side - any stories about it?

@Walking Ballista: I currently try it at colorless eldrazi decks and i really like it over spot removal - but in a white shell with Swords/Displacer/Jailer/B.Alliance you simply have a very good removal suite (something colorless Eldrazi lacks) so it is hard to find slots for it - Maybe without the Mimic Idea the build above from Contra can run some Ballistas - but overall Ballista is more of a control card and less aggressiv and i like the idea to push this deck into a more aggressiv direction. Conclusion: I think Ballistas will perfom better in Colorless Eldrazi Shells because they will be better than removal stuff like Spatial Contortion

[contra]

I like that you test the 1off Squire at Side - any stories about it?


Squire is a fun-of for me. I've casted it twice - once into an attacking merit lage with lethal next turn. The other time was against DnT where they were attacking for lethal vs my empty board. It went farming for a single life and I died the next turn.

I'll prob run a revoker or maybe jitte in that slot since I won't be dropping copter. I mean jitte is 4, sometimes 5 mana to play/attach and even then doesn't do anything until you connect. Copter is cheaper, provides evasive damage, and on top of that card filtering. It's usually eating the decay/swords/bolt instead of the mimic which is just dandy.

[metronome2charisma]

Haven't been able to make it to redcaps lately - just been playing the following list online. It's a hybrid of white eldrazi and thalia stompy with eye of ugins and mimics. I've had more success with it than the standard list because it's more aggressive. Mimic facilitates broken eldrazi lines like mimic - tks - smasher. It's also an additional turn-1 play that can be cast off of the majority of the lands. The eye of ugins support 25% of the deck and can just be thrown to a diamond in some cases.

Copter is an auto-include at this point. Same with the full playset of smashers and 3 cities. Palace jailer has been the shit - 2 feels like the right number.

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
5 Plains
2 Eye of Ugin

// 25 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Palace Jailer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter

// 15 Sideboard
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Selfless Squire

i tried something really similar back when i was on white eldrazi . i personally hated it but if you're having better luck with it than the standard build you should probably play the mimic version, although i do agree that the mimics should probably be a 4 instead of 3 if you're gunna go that route,maybe cut the 4th heretic cathar because with the addition of the eye of ugins it gets harder to cast and harder to turn 1. I think it really comes down to play style ..like i said before for the first 2 months of playing this deck i had awful results then since the beginning of march i'm 68-17 with 2 i.d. It took me forever to transition from eldrazi to this but once it clicked it clicked. My list isn't changing from the last time i posted it until i stop winning . Try to make it out to redcaps on Wednesday, we get about 15-20 every week.
3-1 last night . 71-18

[darkgh0st]

I was able to take Thalia Stompy to my LGS FNM. I noticed that the locals playing Sneak and Show and Reanimator have switched out of them. There were 2 ANTs, 1 Belcher, 2 Burn, 1 Grixis Delver, 1 Lands, 1 Elves, and other fair decks. I switched in the Containment Priests from main to side with the Palace Jailers (2 for 2), and slotted in 3 Revokers and 1 Ballista for my flex slots. I am still working on my SB but brought this:

2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ratchet Bomb (I don't have Holy Lights - which costed me a game)
2 Disenchant
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Containment Priest
3 Faerie Macabre

R1 was vs Grixis Delver
I took G1 swiftly opening with a T1 Chalice into Thalia 2, Thalia 1.
I sided out the Moxes and brought in removal.
I lost G2 to a 2nd turn Null Rod into double Delver and TNN. I was stuck with a Jitte and Ratchet Bomb which should have been a Holy Light. The Holy Light would have been key here. I'll be making sure that I pick those up.
I lost G3 as I ran out of gas late game and drew consecutive lands, while he takes me quickly down from 14 with an Angler + Jitte.
0-1 (1-2)

R2 was vs ANT
I won the die roll and opened up with Thalia 1.0. He plays a Petal and I Revoke it next turn and beat him to death.
He didn't have the T1 on G1 so I unloaded Chalice at 0 and Thalia 1.0 T1 and TKS T2
1-1 (3-2)

R3 was vs Lands
He had the Manabond nuts G1 and that was it.
G2 was the textbook win of Thalia 1.0 into Thalia 2.0.
He took G3 late game while he was down to 1. I had both Thalias in play and drew 5 conscutive lands, while he slowly combos through.
1-2 (4-4)

R4 was some Jank combo deck, which we are mostly favored against and I won in two.
2-2 (6-4)


My Notes:
- The obvious Holy Lights to buy
- The 3rd Karakas is still a possibility, which might have helped vs Lands G1
- Try lowering Mox back to 3 as my meta becomes more fair decks
- Try out 2 to 3 Smuggler's Copter for filtering to better card selection late game, but card slots are tight...
- Try out a 4th Thalia 2.0 with the Copters in, again, slots are tight...
- I didn't see Ballista so I can't say how good it is

[iostream]

Brought my proposed list with some sideboard tweaks to a small 10-person tournament today. I went 4-0-1 and we split the top 4. I beat Bant Deathblade, RUG Delver, 4c Loam, and Mono-R Sneak Attack. I ID'd versus Grixis Delver, but we played a match for fun, which I lost. For reference:

4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
3 Reality Smasher
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
3 Wasteland

Sideboard

1 Key to the City
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Rest in Peace

The general plan of just playing the best disruptive creatures and maximizing aggression was good. Flying without any Needle effects seemed a little scary at first, but I never ended up missing them.

Comments on random cards I was testing:

- Endless One was great all day. It is a way more impactful early play than a random Containment Priest in non-GY matchups or a Revoker without a particularly good name (DRS doesn't count!), and it ends up just being bigger than everything by the midgame. It turns out a random 4/4 or 5/5 on turn 2 or 3 just wins games for the same reason Goyf does. It was key in my match against mono-R Sneak Attack since you can deploy it under a Blood Moon for a reasonably high value of X to apply pressure while they're looking for a way to close out the game. Why did we ever cut this when we moved away from Colorless? 3 felt right since you can't really spit out multiples under Eye of Ugin like Colorless can, but you're always happy to see the first.

- Walking Ballista was really good at x=2 or bigger, but x=1 is not a very strong play a lot of the time. Killing Delver with an x=1 Ballista feels great, playing it blindly on x=1 does not, especially if your opponent responds with a DRS, since typically you want to something else with your mana on turn 2 rather than pump and kill. For these reasons, I think 4 is too many since seeing multiples in your opener kind of commits you to casting one for earlier than you'd like, but this is one of your absolute best late game topdecks. I think I will shave one of the four, but I don't know for what yet. I wonder if people's lack of enthusiasm for it is because it doesn't look impressive to get a 3/3 for 6 mana or whatever, but if you get to untap with it, you get to either (a) attack, pump, and fireball for 8+ damage on an empty board, or (b) use the pings to enable your first strikers to eat much larger creatures / force unfavorable trades with your little creatures. It also is a maindeckable way to wipe YP + tokens if you have to. The card is very strong!

- Smuggler's Copter is still great. I think people somewhat overestimate the looting ability and underestimate the inherent value of having an evasive beater. Obviously looting is nice, but being able to fly over a complicated board just helps your clock out so much. (There's also some utility in giving your creatures a weird sort of haste, but you obviously only get to enjoy that benefit when your draw is already coming together well.) For this reason, I've wondered if Heart of Kiran is better in this deck. Almost everything we play can crew it, 4 power eats Delver and Clique instead of just trading, and vigilance means you can both attack and block with it.

- I never drew Key, Forsake, or Canonist. But I want to point out Canonist specifically because if Elves and Storm are supposed to be the combo decks of choice nowadays, Canonist seems better than Thorn, especially given that we already have access to a maindeck Thorn effect in Thalia, Guardian of Thraben already.

- Blessed Alliance is really narrow and I kind of feel like it's a waste of space. Key is abstractly the more proactive way of dealing with TNN, but I have no idea if it's actually good yet. Holy Light seems so horrible. The problem is not TNN by itself, but TNN+equipment, especially Sword of Fire and Ice. The deck can go much wider than a 3/1!

[TTX]

I've been building off of Tragos' list. I prefer the Palace Jailer in general over Containment Priest. Both have huge synergy with Eldrazi Displacer.
Palace Jailer provides card advantage over time and is a great closer.

I like Blessed Alliance a lot. I don't think it's narrow at all. Essentially it's a white Diabolic Edict with more options.
It works against single big creatures like Griselbrand, TNN, Emrakul, Marit Lage, etc.
It's good against Burn, and it's good for creature combat tricks.

Armageddon is hilarious by the way. It always shows up when you side it in. Always ends the game if it's not countered.

What do you guys think?


// 60 Maindeck
// 11 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter

// 24 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Palace Jailer

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle

// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Creature
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Containment Priest

// 3 Enchantment
SB: 3 Rest in Peace

// 6 Instant
SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 3 Blessed Alliance

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Armageddon

[MD.Ghost]

@TTX: Main looks okay but i would trim the lands for at least one more plains - you will still be able to win enough vs all the moon-stuff around. I would also never cut Cavern with 2 relevant creature types (one with W and WW) and with more and more delver around. At a stompy shell your threats must be able to pass counterwalls. Its fine to get Chalice countered because while Chalice is nice it will not beat your opponent to dead.

I dislike the Sideboard - no Swords to Plowshares (most creature decks, bg decks etc.), no thorn (burn, adds up nicely with thalia and important castable turn 1 even on the draw). Armageddon and Blessed Alliance etc. is okay.

@iostream: gz, solid run - i am more and more in love with walking ballista at big eldrazi/colorless eldrazi still had no time to test it here. I feel this deck has more than enough other relevant plays and can use its mana in other directions (displacer/wastelands etc.). But yeah this little dude is not bad against creature decks and can be a great topdeck if you have enough mana around.

[iostream]

I like Blessed Alliance a lot. I don't think it's narrow at all. Essentially it's a white Diabolic Edict with more options.
It works against single big creatures like Griselbrand, TNN, Emrakul, Marit Lage, etc.
It's good against Burn, and it's good for creature combat tricks.

I agree it's great versus TNN and Marit Lage, but this does nothing versus Griselbrand or Emrakul. If Griselbrand is in play, you've already lost. Even if they don't get a hit in, the 7-14 cards they get will end the game. As for Emrakul, you can only remove it after the annihilator trigger is put on the stack, which once again means you've lost. Burn is an extremely rare matchup. As for the third mode, I don't know what matchup would possibly make me want to side a card in just to make surprise blocks. I think if you add this all up, it's pretty fair to say that this is a narrow card. It is literally only good for dealing with two specific creatures.

[TTX]

I agree it's great versus TNN and Marit Lage, but this does nothing versus Griselbrand or Emrakul. If Griselbrand is in play, you've already lost. Even if they don't get a hit in, the 7-14 cards they get will end the game. As for Emrakul, you can only remove it after the annihilator trigger is put on the stack, which once again means you've lost. Burn is an extremely rare matchup. As for the third mode, I don't know what matchup would possibly make me want to side a card in just to make surprise blocks. I think if you add this all up, it's pretty fair to say that this is a narrow card. It is literally only good for dealing with two specific creatures.

Point taken. Though how can StP be justified in a CotV deck? Seems like a nonbo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[iostream]

Point taken. Though how can StP be justified in a CotV deck? Seems like a nonbo.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOne typically only sides in StP when Chalice comes out - for instance, versus fair creature decks like D+T or various BGx midrange strategies.

[MD.Ghost]

One typically only sides in StP when Chalice comes out - for instance, versus fair creature decks like D+T or various BGx midrange strategies.

Me too - but i also use it vs any BGx deck, even Delver stuff because they tend to have a higher cc curve and playset answer (decay) for chalice too. For me 3 Swords are fine IF you have other removal options. I like 2 Blessed Alliance, because it is not only to answer Marit or TNN (the merfolk needs an answer and it is not good to rely on copter), it is also good vs burn (maybe not common but every big tournament will have them - i faced two at my last 10 rounder) and with mana ramp you can often activate two modes. I also use it against grixis delver, chalice+swords aren't hot enough so i dont bring in swords here. But facing a delver that was cast before your chalice or a big zombie fish (big gofy, smasher etc.) can be hard - Blessed Alliance can shine here and will be better if the game goes on and you have more mana/options.

I currently have 3 Swords, 2 Blessed Alliance (and 2 Pontiff - but that can be anything else and isnt common). From my experrience games can be swingy if your opponent managed to stabilze on the field and starts to counterattack (Delver/Angler/Gofy/BSkull etc.). Against Reanimator they typically search Grisel and if they cast it via Reanimate they can't draw 7-14 cards easily. I would also board B.Alliance here - it will also shine against other fatties (besides Grave Titan) if they can't entomb the best creature. I think if you don't like Blessed Alliance you need other stuff or go with Stoneforge + Equip (Swords with Protection) to have some outs against all the nasty creatures around.

[keys]

I'm currently playing 4 StP, 1 Blessed Alliance, and 2 Holy Light as my SB removal right now.

I think Blessed Alliance can be really strong, but it's a bit clunky so I wouldn't bet your whole gameplan on it.

The Holy Lights are mainly there for Elves and Grixis/TNN-based strategies, but they can also be good against less popular decks like Goblins or TES/Belcher.

StP is still the best removal, despite the nonbo with Chalice.

[Kaono]

Has anyone considered Cast Out in our removal suite? It's never truly "dead", and our deck can get to 4 rather easily.

I ask because I was playing it in a janky Astral Slide build this week and was very happy whenever I drew it. It is a clean answer to Jace and is especially great vs Sneak & Show. Instant speed means it can also snipe Batterskull flashed in by SFM. 4 mana also dodges abrupt decay. I might swap out some combination of removal/disenchant to test it out.

[Poron]

yes, Cast Out has been solid since its preview. Definitly playable in every control, high mana, deck.

It just doesn't get rid of Emrakul and TNN differently from Judgement

[Whitefaces]

yes, Cast Out has been solid since its preview. Definitly playable in every control, high mana, deck.

It just doesn't get rid of Emrakul and TNN differently from Judgement

It can remove Emrakul. She only has protection from coloured spells, what targets from Cast Out is a white triggered ability.

[itrytostorm]

it can remove emrakul. She only has protection from coloured spells, what targets from cast out is a white permanent.

ftfy

[Whitefaces]

No, what I wrote was right. Cast Out enters the battlefield and has a triggered ability, which can target Emrakul.

[TTX]

No, what I wrote was right. Cast Out enters the battlefield and has a triggered ability, which can target Emrakul.

You are correct. This is why I like Palace Jailer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[metronome2charisma]

Got my ass handed to me today at a 1k. My luck this week has been awful. I went 2-2 , 1-2 drop, AAAANNND 1-4. Bringing me to 75-26.... If this continues i'll make some changes . I think i'm gunna go up to 3 Karakas in the 75 as lands is been getting more popular and has been giving me fits.
Congrats to iostream for top 8ing the same 1k today.

[iostream]

Thanks! I actually managed to win my t8 match against Storm and then lost in t4 to a novel UWR Blood Moon control deck. I made some misplays in game 3, chief among which was cycling both of my Forsake the Worldlys too hastily and getting stranded with a crucial TKS in hand against a topdecked Blood Moon. Moon is not really backbreaking against us, but being down a card when you didn't have to be is always a big problem.

I ran back the same 75 as last time (link here) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30943-Thalia-Stompy&p=1007844&viewfull=1#post1007844)

I like most of the changes that I've made to the deck, as I've come to view the white cards as just patching certain strategic weakness of the Colorless Eldrazi shell. That is, the basic gameplan is the same as Colorless Eldrazi - deploy a few high-impact disruptive cards and then just go kill your opponent. The white cards are just there to provide additional options for disruption. Eldrazi Displacer, Thalia 1.0, and Thalia 2.0 (alongside Chalice and TKS) are all specific disruptive effects that can singlehandedly win the matchups in which they are at their best. Endless One and Walking Ballista (alongside Reality Smasher) are the best aggressive cards available; here the white splash doesn't help, so you just play what Colorless Eldrazi plays, except for the very expensive Eldrazi like Endbringer which cannot be cast in a manabase that has 0 Eye of Ugin. From my experience, Stoneforge Mystic and Phyrexian Revoker are neither disruptive enough nor aggressive enough to deserve slots.

Specific comments: I'm really high on Endless One, and I think one should probably nix the 4th Ballista for the 4th Endless One. I know Endless One doesn't look like much, but it fills out the curve perfectly and instantly stabilizes unfavorable boardstates provided your mana is working out at all. Key to the City was pretty crappy today, and I think it should just be the 3rd StP. I think Forsake the Worldly is better than Disenchant, the extra 1 mana just didn't matter. I wonder if I'm supposed to find space for the 4th Reality Smasher.

[contra]

Nice finish iostream. I've been testing out endless ones also, but I was hesitant to post my list here since it's probably closer to white eldrazi.

I'm not liking Thalia stompy in the new meta tbh. Miracles was the reason to play chalice and smasher. Turn 1 chalice is still good, but things have sped up a considerable amount and getting to 5 mana doesn't always happen. Our elves matchup is bad, and grixis (which seems to be every other deck I play) is an even to unfavorable matchup depending if they run stifles.

I've also had a difficult time against lands recently, even though on. Paper the matchup seems heavily in our favor. That deck is just too OP sometimes...

4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
4 Reality Smasher
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Oblivion Sower

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
3 Eye of Ugin

Sideboard

2 All is Dust
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Rest in Peace
2 Warping Wail
3 Wasteland

[Sisyphos]

I'm not liking Thalia stompy in the new meta tbh. Miracles was the reason to play chalice and smasher. Turn 1 chalice is still good, but things have sped up a considerable amount and getting to 5 mana doesn't always happen. Our elves matchup is bad, and grixis (which seems to be every other deck I play) is an even to unfavorable matchup depending if they run stifles.

The correct way to phrase it would have been that you don't like your version of Thalia Stompy in the new meta. If Miracles was the reason to play Smasher than maybe with Miracles gone a list with less of a focus on Smasher in specific and Eldrazi in general will be better for the new meta than the heavy Eldrazi list you have posted. Take for example the Elves matchup. Yes your list has a terrible matchup against Elves. But you run 0 Jitte and your sweepers cost 7 mana. Those are easy ways to improve the matchup. Playing stuff like Holy Light or Pontiff does not only improve the matchup against Elves but also against Grixis if you are facing Pyromancer or TNN.

[contra]

The correct way to phrase it would have been that you don't like your version of Thalia Stompy in the new meta.

I've played many different iterations of the deck and I maintain that Thalia stompy isn't great in the new meta. This is precisely why I'm trying new things. I believe that a more eldrazi-centric list is better against grixis - which is no doubt the new dtb. Case and point - look at the eldrazi stompy thread SB guide - they literally make no SB substitutions for the grixis matchup because it's so good.


Playing stuff like Holy Light or Pontiff does not only improve the matchup against Elves but also against Grixis if you are facing Pyromancer or TNN.
Pontiff is hard to cast w/ only 4 caverns 4 diamonds, and holy-light hits your revokers which you want to keep in vs elves. Dealing w/ TNN and swarm is tough for colorless & white which is another reason Thalia stompy isn't great in the current meta. I'd advocate a black splash, but that opens us up to mana disruption.


But you run 0 Jitte and your sweepers cost 7 mana. Those are easy ways to improve the matchup.
Jitte is good no doubt. But the list I suggested is running 14 sol lands that can help cast the eldrazi AiDs. Jitte requires 4, sometimes 5 mana, as well as a creature connecting which isn't likely to happen vs elves w/ all their bounce shenanigans. Elves is a hard matchup for Aggro decks trying to play fair. Our premier creature displacer does very little and is often too slow when we're being comboed out on T2. That matchup really comes down to us getting a chalice on 1, anther piece of disruption in THC or containment, and on top of that a decent clock.

[MD.Ghost]

I disagree - Elves should be a good matchups - if - you pack the right cards and dont try to be a "colorless eldrazi version with a little white splash". Elves aren't attacked with more "stupid" Beaters, because they can easily outcombo you before you race them and block&stall you to oblivion if needed (and i am an elves player too - i knew how to grind out fair games). Key cards we can maindeck: Chalice, Thalia 2.0, C.Priest, Jitte, Revoker, Smasher and even uncommon stuff like A.Mindcensor and WWail.

Best card so far is Thalia 2.0, elves have only 2 forests, fetch-to cradle that enters tapped are really bad, even tapped Arbors disable the blocking&stall game with Q.Ranger to some degree. Hoof can't attack after NO and you disable the swarm theme with Thalia too. Chalice&C.Priest means more or less a hardlock in most cases (outs: hardcast hoof or sage) Smasher breaks most stalled fields etc.

Key is - no lockpiece will win a game alone (a reason why dnt more or less cant win the matchup, because dnt also lacks speed - and we can have speed/ramp) - so you need a critical amount of lockpieces, enough speed to deploy them fast enough and on top aggressiv beaters because every hate will stay only for time x, you can't durdle around with 2/2 bears (have i talked about the dnt vs elves match^^). Thalia Stompy have all the tools to have a good elves matchup. Tools like C.Priests will help vs a lot more decks/situations. Bonus point: Elves have no Decay main and your matchup greatly improves if you have hate like Priest/Mindcensor at main and win game 1.

Pontiff is also a no brainer vs elves, but the matchup is more than winable without this card.

--------
Grixis is another story, i can see that endless one - or better ballista - helps to gain more wins here.

[Kaono]

On top of all that Thalia 2.0 stops a glimpse chain which really slows them down.

[iostream]

I disagree - Elves should be a good matchups - if - you pack the right cards and dont try to be a "colorless eldrazi version with a little white splash". Elves aren't attacked with more "stupid" Beaters, because they can easily outcombo you before you race them and block&stall you to oblivion if needed (and i am an elves player too - i knew how to grind out fair games). Key cards we can maindeck: Chalice, Thalia 2.0, C.Priest, Jitte, Revoker, Smasher and even uncommon stuff like A.Mindcensor and WWail.

Best card so far is Thalia 2.0, elves have only 2 forests, fetch-to cradle that enters tapped are really bad, even tapped Arbors disable the blocking&stall game with Q.Ranger to some degree. Hoof can't attack after NO and you disable the swarm theme with Thalia too. Chalice&C.Priest means more or less a hardlock in most cases (outs: hardcast hoof or sage) Smasher breaks most stalled fields etc.

Key is - no lockpiece will win a game alone (a reason why dnt more or less cant win the matchup, because dnt also lacks speed - and we can have speed/ramp) - so you need a critical amount of lockpieces, enough speed to deploy them fast enough and on top aggressiv beaters because every hate will stay only for time x, you can't durdle around with 2/2 bears (have i talked about the dnt vs elves match^^). Thalia Stompy have all the tools to have a good elves matchup. Tools like C.Priests will help vs a lot more decks/situations. Bonus point: Elves have no Decay main and your matchup greatly improves if you have hate like Priest/Mindcensor at main and win game 1.

Pontiff is also a no brainer vs elves, but the matchup is more than winable without this card.

--------
Grixis is another story, i can see that endless one - or better ballista - helps to gain more wins here.I know for a fact that Ballista is a high-impact card against Grixis from playtesting, and I'm hopeful that Ballista should do quite a lot against Elves. The Elves that matter the most are Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger; Ballista is a maindeckable way to turn them off with upside potential to pick off other things. I think it might do the job of Phyrexian Revoker in this matchup a little better than Revoker itself. I'll try to test this matchup a bit when I next find the time.

[kratos]

I have been testing this for the last few weeks and tweaked it a little here and there.
We held a small tournament today (12 people) and I did rather well finishing in 2nd place.
I was the only X-0 at the end of the swiss. We cut to top 4 after 4 rounds.
We had a nice meta including Lands, Grixis Delver, 2 Sneak and Show decks , Reanimator, 4C Control, DnT, and others.


Round 1: BR Reanimator 2-1
I took game one on the play with Chalice as my opening play followed up by a Displacer riding it to victory. He had the nuts game two. Ended up locking him out game 3 as well with Displacer and Revoker

Round 2: Burn 2-0
On the draw both games. Game One went T1 Chalice on 1, T2 Chalice on 2, T3 Batterskull. Game Two I led with Thalia 1.0 and followed up Thought-Knot and Smasher.

Round 3: Janky Mud list with Thought-Knoughts, Forgemasters and Chalices in the board? 2-1
Game One I was beat by turn two Thought-Knot followed up with lots of things on the board. Game 2 I had a solid T2 Thought-Knot into Smasher to close it out quickly. Game 2 I mulled to 5 with garbage, but did not see a 4 getting any better. I Swords his T2 Forgemaster, to which he had no follow up. I was stuck on 3 lands but found all of the right lock pieces and filled the board up with small guys.

Round 4: Lands
The game one against lands is rough. Like really bad in my opinon. The boarded games are much better and I had quick threats followed up by answers on Games Two and Three. Thalia 2.0 is a house, and displacers is a great threat with open mana against their combo.

Semi-Finals: Storm 2-0
Lost the die roll and was Therapied out of my 2 Chalices in my opener. Still drew into all of my land drops to race and lock him out as his opener wasnt super great. Game Two my opening 7 was Mox Diamond, 2x Ancient Tomb, Thalia 1.0, Thorn, Surgical, Revoker. I honestly couldnt lose. He Therapied naming Chalice again, missed, and I quickly locked it up.

Finals: Played against the janky Mud list again 1-2
Game One I had the business with T2 TKS into T3 Smasher. Games Two he Revokered my Mox Diamond and I couldnt find a 4th mana before getting locked out. Game Three he had a T2 Thought-Knot with Lightning Greaves and I couldnt find white mana after stabilizing.

Overall I was very happy with the decks performance.


Here was the list I ran:

Creature (27)
2x Containment Priest
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Phyrexian Revoker

Artifact (9)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Mox Diamond
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
3x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Karakas
5x Plains

Sideboard (15)
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Containment Priest
2x Disenchant
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Rest in Peace
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Holy Light


I tested without the Stoneforges and used 2 Ballistas with a second Jitte. I did not enjoy them and never found them powerful or great in the long grinding games. I found the Stonforge package to be much better when behind or against the delver matchup, so I went back to it.

I cant wait to play this at Vegas

[TTX]

Congrats Kratos. I think the deck is very well positioned in the meta right now.

I played at SCG Louisville this weekend


4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter

4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Palace Jailer
1 Aven Mindcensor

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle

// 15 Sideboard

SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Palace Jailer
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Armageddon

The deck was great, the players were great. I'm so glad I got to play this deck before a long MtG hiatus. It caught so many people off-guard, no one had seen it, or knew what to do.
It's really funny, in this deck, I always draw the right amount of sideboard cards. Pretty unusual for me. Copter is amazing.

Legacy Challenge on Saturday 4-0

2-0 vs. Elves (both Thalias, Smashers finish it quickly, Ethersworn Canonist and Containment Priest are brutal).
2-1 vs. Hightide (He FoW a game ending Smasher then combos out in game 1. Game 2 and 3, little Thalia and CotV are silver bullets.
2-0 vs. BUG Delver (A Copter crewed by a Revoker which neutered a DRS deals 18 damage game 1. Amazing. Both Thalias wreck this deck).
2-1 vs. RG Lands (He got turn 4 20/20 after double topdecking Ghost Quarters to handle my Karakas. Game 2 I maintain control with CotV = 0 and RiP. Both Thalias again are super powerful. Palace Jailer is great in this matchup if you can get it down. Just generates a ton of advantage. Game 3 I get 3 Chalices at 0, 1, and 2 alongside 2 Displacers and Karakas. His Marit Lage ain't never sticking. Smasher finishes quickly after timely Wastelands sac his Mazes.

Legacy Classic on Sunday 5-3

2-1 vs. Burn

Turn 1 on the play I lay little Thalia in the Cavern with a Mox. He plays a Mountain, and I know that I'm in luck, followed up with Copter then double Smasher.
Game 2 he has double Searing Blood to deal with my Thalia sisters and then ends it with PoP and FBlast. Game three on the play he can't keep up with TKS and Copter.

2-0 vs. Death and Taxes

Turn 1 on the play with CotV X=1. Followed by big Thalia, leads to scoop shortly. Game 2 he Wastelands me but then PtE my Revoker, nullifying the potential tempo gain. I follow it up with more TKS, Jitte, and Smasher.

1-2 vs. Colorless Eldrazi

Kept a very sloppy opener and suffer dearly. Game 2 I get an early Big Thalia and he can't keep up when paired with Displacer. Game 3 is like game 1, very sloppy keep on my part that gets shredded by TKS on top of Mimics and Reshapers for quick damage.

1-2 vs. Death and Taxes

Young kid, very competent, he made several play mistakes but it didn't matter as I was drawing poorly and mildly tilted from miskeeping the round prior. Good rumble. His Palace Jailer came down earlier than mine, and I could never get the monarch and drowned under card advantage.

0-2 vs. BUG True Name

Pretty poorly missplayed by holding a Mindcensor when I should have cast. He puts up long defenses with TNN. Game 2 he does the same by putting up a wall of defense then ultimates Jace.

2-1 vs. Grixis Delver

Big Thalia wrecks this deck. Copter is amazing against Delver, so is Displacer. Smasher finishes very quickly.

2-0 vs. Manaless Dredge

Both Thalia's stop this deck in it's tracks. I Revoke his Phantasmagorian and game 2 I draw a turn 6 RiP with both Thalia's in play and he scoops.

2-0 vs. Colorless Eldrazi

Palace Jailer crews Copter, Displacer blinks Jailer, Jailer eats opponent's creature, they take 6 damage increments while I draw 3 cards and discard 1 per turn. Big Thalia prevents him from ever accelerating.

Deck is strong. I'd say the weakest matchup is Death and Taxes. I practiced a lot in paper against my friend play Elves. He usually gets crushed by the deck, pre and post board.

[MD.Ghost]

Congrats guys, seems some off you do well even at the "new world" meta (and yes i think this deck should do well enough even without miracles).

It seems we still have some different directions: some play sfm, some play copter, some have maindeck c.priest, some try some more aggressiv lists etc. I feel it settles down to personal preference, playstyle and obviously local meta.

I currently test some other decks but i liked the "new" idea of iostream with more aggressiv beaters (have played all of the above directions in the past).

I adjusted his latest list with some personal options:

// 60 Maindeck

// 9 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// 26 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Endless One
3 Reality Smasher
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Palace Jailer
3 Walking Ballista

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst//Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff//Holy Light etc.
SB: 2 Rest in Peace//Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Disenchant//Forsake the Worldly//Cast Out

I finally cutted copters because with Ballista and Endless one you have enough colorless manasink and t1 opener and i don't want to crew a copter with high Power creatures. I decided to also go with 2 Palace Jailer, because they can still be great and together with Displacer and Ballista you get some nice amount of maindeck removal that can a) beat, b) combo and c) provides manasink. Ballista really helps Displacer/Jailer to aim the bigger for bigger targets, add in Jitte and you have some impact against creature decks.

Without Revoker some combo matchups suffer, but we can also argue that more beaters can race the opponent and against elves ballista feels stronger than Revoker and overall the deck is stil very solid vs combo decks. Ballista will improves the Grixis and DnT Matchup and i really like that direction.

Sideboard is my basic version, i miss enough playtesting with this different build to evaluate the SB slots - it maybe to much removal etc.

Has anyone tested Ajani Steadfast? (No joke^^) cc4 and 3W seems right, all of his abilities are usefull and should help to keep up the pressure, break stalled fields or stabilize at life his biggest downside is that he is useless alone (Copter, Jitte etc.) i thought about him as a take up iostream list.

[kratos]

Thanks Ghost and TTX!

I have a love hate relationship with the deck in that it has those fringe spots. But its nice that it can flexible depending on the meta.
I like Containment Priest for better game ones against some of the bigger contenders that can run over the deck with cheating in creatures. Its also fantastic with Displacer out in the long games.
I actually love copter, but I just cant find the room or it, as well as Jailer.

The sideboard package is also great. Multiple cards are able to come if for a variety of matchups. Most of my opponents became wide-eyed as I would have 5-7 cards to board in when the deck was already very strong.

I also want to thank everyone in this thread so far for all of the helpful insight and data thats been shared.

[metronome2charisma]

Haven't had much success in the new meta..Went 2-2 and 0-2 drop last week.UGH, serious retooling/rethinking happening now...

[contra]

Looking at the last Starcitygames classic results (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2017-05-21&end_date=2017-05-21&event_ID=36&city=Louisville&state=KY&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&start_num=0&limit=8) you’d think the format was wide open, with 14 different decks in top 16(!)
But don’t be fooled... it’s more of the same - delver domination now featuring deathrite.

Even though grixis appears to be on top, I’d simply attribute this to the amount of people playing it.
I’m pretty sure BUG is the best deck in the format, with 4 fatal push in the 75 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15653&d=295645&f=LE).

I think Thalia Stompy’s best look is just the standard build:

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

// 24 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Stoneforge Mystic

// 10 Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember

// 15 Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Blessed Alliance


While the above list is just the aggregate of the decks which have placed in different event, I still think the deck has a ton of flex spots. Just to prove this point I've put together a short list of cards which are considered playable in this deck. I kinda sorted them by best-worst. Let me know if you think I've missed any.


// Creatures
Palace Jailer
Ethersworn Canonist
Aven Mindcensor
Vryn Wingmare
Walking Ballista
Orzhov Pontiff
Endless One
Selfless Squire
Eidolon of Rhetoric
Vizier of Deferment
Sanctum Prelate
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Mangara of Corondor
Lodestone Golem
Stonecloaker
Blade Splicer
Hero of Bladehold
Phyrexian Metamorph
Spellskite
Faerie Macabre
Mirran Crusader
Leonin Arbiter
Restoration Angel
War Priest of Thune
Glowrider


// Artifacts
Smuggler's Copter
Ratchet Bomb
Trinisphere
Sphere of Resistance
Pithing Needle
Crucible of Worlds
Tsabo's Web
Winter Orb
Coercive Portal

// Instants & Sorceries
Holy Light
Disenchant
Path to Exile
Warping Wail
Mindbreak Trap
Spatial Contortion
Council's Judgment
Armageddon
Cataclysm
Declaration in Stone
Austere Command

// Enchantments
Leyline of the Void
Seal of Cleansing
Leyline of Sanctity
Suppression Field
Cast Out
Oblivion Ring
Ghostly Prison

// Planeswalkers
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Gideon of the Trials

[metronome2charisma]

Looking at the last Starcitygames classic results (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2017-05-21&end_date=2017-05-21&event_ID=36&city=Louisville&state=KY&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&start_num=0&limit=8) you’d think the format was wide open, with 14 different decks in top 16(!)
But don’t be fooled... it’s more of the same - delver domination now featuring deathrite.

Even though grixis appears to be on top, I’d simply attribute this to the amount of people playing it.
I’m pretty sure BUG is the best deck in the format, with 4 fatal push in the 75 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15653&d=295645&f=LE).

I think Thalia Stompy’s best look is just the standard build:

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

// 24 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Stoneforge Mystic

// 10 Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember

// 15 Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Blessed Alliance


While the above list is just the aggregate of the decks which have placed in different event, I still think the deck has a ton of flex spots. Just to prove this point I've put together a short list of cards which are considered playable in this deck. I kinda sorted them by best-worst. Let me know if you think I've missed any.


// Creatures
Palace Jailer
Ethersworn Canonist
Aven Mindcensor
Vryn Wingmare
Walking Ballista
Orzhov Pontiff
Endless One
Selfless Squire
Eidolon of Rhetoric
Vizier of Deferment
Sanctum Prelate
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Mangara of Corondor
Lodestone Golem
Stonecloaker
Blade Splicer
Hero of Bladehold
Phyrexian Metamorph
Spellskite
Faerie Macabre
Mirran Crusader
Leonin Arbiter
Restoration Angel
War Priest of Thune
Glowrider


// Artifacts
Smuggler's Copter
Ratchet Bomb
Trinisphere
Sphere of Resistance
Pithing Needle
Crucible of Worlds
Tsabo's Web
Winter Orb
Coercive Portal

// Instants & Sorceries
Holy Light
Disenchant
Path to Exile
Warping Wail
Mindbreak Trap
Spatial Contortion
Council's Judgment
Armageddon
Cataclysm
Declaration in Stone
Austere Command

// Enchantments
Leyline of the Void
Seal of Cleansing
Leyline of Sanctity
Suppression Field
Cast Out
Oblivion Ring
Ghostly Prison

// Planeswalkers
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Gideon of the Trials


I think you may be correct. I'm Playing at the Beaded Dragon win a mox this weekend and spent 2 days coming up with what i think is the best list for the expected meta and my list was 3 cards off from yours, even had the one Dismember . I'm trying Stoneforge mystic because i think in a creature heavy meta Stoneforge shines .
One card i won't be playing this weekend is Rest in peace. I'm playing 3 faerie macabre . My reasoning is that B/R Reanimator can be to fast for Rest in peace and for dredge i will have 3 containment priest post board and that combined with revoker and 3 faerie should be enough to stop them and containment priest is great against SnS and B/R Reanimator and elves.

[contra]

One card i won't be playing this weekend is Rest in peace. I'm playing 3 faerie macabre . My reasoning is that B/R Reanimator can be to fast for Rest in peace and for dredge i will have 3 containment priest post board and that combined with revoker and 3 faerie should be enough to stop them and containment priest is great against SnS and B/R Reanimator and elves.
I think if you're worried about reanimator/dredge you should drop the faeries and a priest and just run with 4 leylines. Faerie is just too narrow. I'd even run surgical next to chalice before faerie. I don't worry about those turn 0 wins as their few and far between and you'll hurt your other MU too much.

RIP is better against BUG and storm + we've already got a good game against gy decks with chalice, Thalia, karakas, revoker etc.

[iostream]

I think if you're worried about reanimator/dredge you should drop the faeries and a priest and just run with 4 leylines. Faerie is just too narrow. I'd even run surgical next to chalice before faerie. I don't worry about those turn 0 wins as their few and far between and you'll hurt your other MU too much.

RIP is better against BUG and storm + we've already got a good game against gy decks with chalice, Thalia, karakas, revoker etc.I think Faerie is fine. It's not as good against things like Loam or Punishing Fire as Surgical is, but I think it's close enough since we close out the game reasonably quickly fast. I've tried Leyline before and this deck really doesn't want to have to mulligan to it precisely because we have so many other tools, as you mention.

[contra]

New versions of dragon stompy are running 3-4 copies of ensnaring bridge next to multiple bloodmoons/magus', chandras, and fiery confluence which makes the matchup super scary for us. I think running additional artifact hate in forsake the worldly is useful in a lot of the matchup we have trouble with. I'm also really liking thc in the new meta.

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

// 24 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Stoneforge Mystic

// 10 Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember

// 15 Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Forsake the Worldly
2 Blessed Alliance

[iostream]

New versions of dragon stompy are running 3-4 copies of ensnaring bridge next to multiple bloodmoons/magus', chandras, and fiery confluence which makes the matchup super scary for us. I think running additional artifact hate in forsake the worldly is useful in a lot of the matchup we have trouble with.I think the correct response to a matchup with that much potent hate against us is probably to concede. There's no way one extra Forsake the Worldly is going to turn that matchup around. Legacy is big, and sometimes you have to dodge!

[kratos]

I think the correct response to a matchup with that much potent hate against us is probably to concede. There's no way one extra Forsake the Worldly is going to turn that matchup around. Legacy is big, and sometimes you have to dodge!

I have to agree with you here. The matchup is nearly unwinable, and I don't plan on diluting my board to still lose to this.
I played several games against it and its hard to race before they get an ensnaring bridge out. They almost always have a turn one moon effect witch shuts out your top end. I only one one game. He locked me out with 1 life left, and I put a chalice on 4 and he had no win conditions that could be played after that. I had more cards in my library so he decked himself first.
Dragon Stompy makes a case for walking ballista to be in the 60, but i feel like stoneforge is better vs all of the matchups you have a realist chance at winning against.

[MD.Ghost]

I have to agree with you here. The matchup is nearly unwinable, and I don't plan on diluting my board to still lose to this.
I played several games against it and its hard to race before they get an ensnaring bridge out. They almost always have a turn one moon effect witch shuts out your top end. I only one one game. He locked me out with 1 life left, and I put a chalice on 4 and he had no win conditions that could be played after that. I had more cards in my library so he decked himself first.
Dragon Stompy makes a case for walking ballista to be in the 60, but i feel like stoneforge is better vs all of the matchups you have a realist chance at winning against.

I heavily disagree in case of dragon stompy - i won nearly all matchups against it with Thalia Stompy (and BigEldrazi) because (both) decks can ignore moon to some degree. For Thalia Stompy you will need a min. amount of 5 plains and 3 mox - but keep in mind that you can also lay down stuff turn 1/2 before your opponent is able to put down a moon (they not always start the game and put moon down first turn). All your creatures should be able to put down more pressure against dragon stompy creatures because you either have first strike or bigger creatures.

Hidding behind a bridge is more or less the same like good old moat etc - you need answers for it or you must accept to die against that hate stuff. So you can add more artifact hate or (my solution) use some stuff that can ignore bridge to some degree.

My latest build (30 testmatchups so far ~70%wins)

// 60 Maindeck

// 9 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// 26 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista
2 Containment Priest
2 Palace Jailer

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares

I experiemented a lot and always try to find some ways to put in fringe stuff like triskelion, selfless squire, ajani steadfast or proven solutions like stoneforge etc. but overall i like clean solutions, no one offs - and even the "2" off cards needs to overlap with other cards (like RiP and Priest) so they add up in numbers.

Biggest change for me is Walking Ballista - i clearly underestimated the card for this deck because i wished for a card like triskelion/jailer to enable abuse with Displacer but now i have tested Ballista enough and go from 2 to 3 and now to 4 - for me the card feels perfect for this deck because if you look back we always had a low amount of maindeck removal and all the sideboard cards are spell based which means we had to reduce creatures which means less threats and this deck will simply lose if you can't keep up the pressure (traditional weakness without cantrips/card filtering etc.).

As you can see i cutted the reworkers for it, because without miracles you don't have enough good blind calls, yes you might find enough targets but naming stuff like Deathrite, SfM etc will always result into the situation that you reworker can't attack too. Ballista can be cast turn 1 (with solland/mox) as a 1/1 so you have something to put on the field (and with a playset you don't need to hold back with it), it can be bigger if the game goes on in both ways, either if you hardcast it or if it is on already on the battlefield so its never a bad topdeck. You can respond to removal with it, can shoot down Walkers too and close games with it with pseudo-haste-shoot or fire over walls like TNN/Bridge the last points of damage. We are in legacy so most utility creatures are X/1 which is the reason the format also likes -1/-1 or lavamancer pingers etc. Bonus points, it will work under Blood Moon too (see Dragon Stompy). At my testgames i had numeros games which i was able to 2:1 with it (trading against two unflipped delvers is more or less "GG" etc.), going ballista into ballista is also hard for most creature based decks. For me it greatly improves the grixis delver matchup, but it also has some huge bonus against DnT, Elves etc. It will also ensure that stuff like Displacer, Jailer and Sideboard-Spell-Removal will be a better, because you can hit other important (bigger) targets with it. If you look at my list above you will see a high amount of creatures and removal options compared to other list that will improve some Game 1 situations against creature decks and still can do some work against nearly creaturless-decks/situations.

Yes you can still change the numbers, add a 4th Smasher, cut Priest for Stoneforge etc. but overall for my playstyle and my testmatchups this config worked fine, cause i still try to balance the cc across the board, which means if i run 4 Smasher i dont want other cc4-5 like Jailer, CPriest as a cc2 also is good and still works as a surprise flash-body (and improves G1 against Elves, Reanimate, Sneak&Show etc.).

@Boarding against Dragon Stompy with the list above:
-4 Chalice, -3 Smasher, -2 C.Priest
+2 Thorn, +3 Swords, +2 Revoker, +2 Disenchant
(if you aren't fear bridge you can take a risky approach and keep some smasher copies)

Smasher is dead once they land moon (or Bridge), same is true for TKS but casting wise TKS is in most cases one turn faster and a T2 TKS maybe still is fast enough to come down before Moon and offers not only nice disruption (can also catch bridge) a 4/4 body is also not bad vs Dragon Stompy. Swords is here to counter fast Magus etc. Besides TKS all Creatures are castable under moon if you also get white mana. I tend to save Disenchant for a critical Bridge. Thorn+Thalia can also make it hard for your opponent to cast stuff because they have more non-creature spells including cc3-4 stuff and weaker mana base (less lands, more all in moves with spirit guide etc.). Revoker is here against Chandra and overall another colorless body.

[metronome2charisma]

Well after starting out 3-1 i ended up 3-3 . I was "in the zone" for the first 3 rounds (one of which i lost) and then i started to get a headache (i'm a migraine sufferer )and my results suffered. On the plus side it didn't turn into a "2 day long ,can't get out of bed or open my eyes headache" so that was GREAT. I took a chance and ran hero of blade hold yesterday and it was great,both times i cast it it killed my opponent . All my matches were really close games except for storm. I played against
b/r reanimator 2-1 Game three my opener is Displacer x2, Faerie macabre x2 ,city of traitors, Chalice,cavern of souls . I snap keep.
dark maverick 2-1
esper deathblade 1-2
storm 2-0
bug delver 1-2
bug control 1-2
This is the list ill be testing for the next couple weeks . i upped the white sources by adding a Caves of kilos to help support the 2 Hero and the 2 pontiff out of the board. I know Hero seems strange but he's just another must answer threat, on par with Reality smasher and Hero doesn't die to abrupt decay or bolt and Fatal push has to be "turned on". For what its worth i LOVED this list.

10 artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte

25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Walking Ballista
2 phyrexian revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 hero of blade hold
1 Containment Priest


25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
2 Wasteland
1 caves of koilos

15 Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 ratchet bomb
3 faerie macabre
1 containment priest

[iostream]

Thanks for the notes, metronome! The list is interesting, but I have one concern: is Orzhov Pontiff castable with Petals instead of Diamonds?

I also 3-3'd that tournament, but I have nothing really interesting to say about it; my deck crapped out in some matches, I misplayed a bit, not really the deck's fault.

But looking at my tournament notebook over the last month or so, it seems like we might want to rethink the "standard composition" of the deck a bit since the metagame really has shifted dramatically since Top's banning. When you think about how dramatically decks like D+T and Dragon Stompy (which share certain features with Thalia Stompy) have been evolving in recent weeks, it kind of makes you wonder whether or not we are falling behind somehow. It could be the basic skeleton of the deck is already refined, or it could be that we really ought to be testing bigger changes.

Specifically: Legacy, at least in the mid-Atlantic USA, seems to me like it's becoming "polarized" between very fast unfair decks like BR Reanimator and very grindy fair decks like Portent Miracles. How does this affect us? I can think of at least three things we'd like to consider.

1) Thalia, Heretic Cathar seems like it is becoming worse and worse positioned. Is she still good enough? Very fast unfair decks either don't care about big Thalia or can get underneath her. Very grindy fair decks overload on cheap control elements, so you can't easily cash in the tempo gain from big Thalia. Portent Miracles is a great example of a deck of the second type; in addition to running a pile of Swords and Terminuses, they don't play many nonbasic lands or creatures to begin with! I think you still want some of this effect somewhere since it really is one of your best tools against Grixis Delver and Elves, but by and large she seems less relevant than in the past.

2) Very fast unfair decks don't run Wasteland. Very grindy fair decks often don't run Wasteland. Which makes one wonder: if there is really less Wasteland floating around, should we be greedier? Examples of greedier choices: playing more unstable mana bases with more City of Traitors/Lotus Petal, playing "bigger" with cards like Endbringer, playing splash colors to access more flexible options, and so on. 2 and 3-color versions of D+T are doing exactly this, and I think this is one reason why it's not stupid to consider.

(aside: Maybe Lotus Petal specifically is better now even if you don't want to be greedy. Since people seem to be converging around Ballista, there are just fewer white cards in the deck, so we might not need the stability that Mox Diamond provides?)

3) Is Ethersworn Canonist maindeckable now? Abstractly it seems like a better positioned tax nowadays than Containment Priest in a "polarized" metagame. It obviously screws over the fast combo decks more or less uniformly, but imagine how Portent Miracles or Czech Pile must feel playing against it...

[metronome2charisma]

Thanks for the notes, metronome! The list is interesting, but I have one concern: is Orzhov Pontiff castable with Petals instead of Diamonds?

I also 3-3'd that tournament, but I have nothing really interesting to say about it; my deck crapped out in some matches, I misplayed a bit, not really the deck's fault.

But looking at my tournament notebook over the last month or so, it seems like we might want to rethink the "standard composition" of the deck a bit since the metagame really has shifted dramatically since Top's banning. When you think about how dramatically decks like D+T and Dragon Stompy (which share certain features with Thalia Stompy) have been evolving in recent weeks, it kind of makes you wonder whether or not we are falling behind somehow. It could be the basic skeleton of the deck is already refined, or it could be that we really ought to be testing bigger changes.

Specifically: Legacy, at least in the mid-Atlantic USA, seems to me like it's becoming "polarized" between very fast unfair decks like BR Reanimator and very grindy fair decks like Portent Miracles. How does this affect us? I can think of at least three things we'd like to consider.

1) Thalia, Heretic Cathar seems like it is becoming worse and worse positioned. Is she still good enough? Very fast unfair decks either don't care about big Thalia or can get underneath her. Very grindy fair decks overload on cheap control elements, so you can't easily cash in the tempo gain from big Thalia. Portent Miracles is a great example of a deck of the second type; in addition to running a pile of Swords and Terminuses, they don't play many nonbasic lands or creatures to begin with! I think you still want some of this effect somewhere since it really is one of your best tools against Grixis Delver and Elves, but by and large she seems less relevant than in the past.

2) Very fast unfair decks don't run Wasteland. Very grindy fair decks often don't run Wasteland. Which makes one wonder: if there is really less Wasteland floating around, should we be greedier? Examples of greedier choices: playing more unstable mana bases with more City of Traitors/Lotus Petal, playing "bigger" with cards like Endbringer, playing splash colors to access more flexible options, and so on. 2 and 3-color versions of D+T are doing exactly this, and I think this is one reason why it's not stupid to consider.

(aside: Maybe Lotus Petal specifically is better now even if you don't want to be greedy. Since people seem to be converging around Ballista, there are just fewer white cards in the deck, so we might not need the stability that Mox Diamond provides?)

3) Is Ethersworn Canonist maindeckable now? Abstractly it seems like a better positioned tax nowadays than Containment Priest in a "polarized" metagame. It obviously screws over the fast combo decks more or less uniformly, but imagine how Portent Miracles or Czech Pile must feel playing against it...

Its crazy that i've been thinking about the exact same things. i'll elaborate more tonight.



1) As you may have noticed i went down to 2 Thalia 2.0 . My main reasoning being that i noticed it did little if i was behind and was getting stuck in my hand because i would have multiples or would get bounced with my opponents Karakas. it is really good in a bunch of match ups if you're ahead or on the play but other wise was just SLIGHTLY underperforming. I can't see me not playing it but then again who knows.

2)i have been thinking about running 2 wasteland and another caves (to help cast that pontiff out of the board) and 2 factories but with so much delver and lands n the format i am having a hard time pulling the trigger. it would also help to cast those bigger creatures you mentioned Endbringer specifically . i'm not sure how good oblivion sower would be but it is very powerful.( i know you didn't mention sower i was just thinking out loud)

As far as splashing colors goes the options are nearly endless as long as we're playing 4 ancient tomb 1 city and 3-4 temples the rest of the mana base is pretty flexible One thing I've been thinking of trying out is something with 4 lodestones 2-3 canonist because they slow down EVERYTHING and instead of 4 smasher maybe go 2-3 hero of bladehold
The reason i like hero and lodestone together is because lodestone taxes EVERYTHING so it pretty good against delver ,combo and most creature decks while Hero cost 4 mana instead of 5 ( yes i understand that temple helps cast smasher) and when attacking alone over 2 turns only does 3 less damage than smasher and after 3 turns does 2 more, but when attacking with any other creatures is insane, not to mention dodges most common removal other than STP, just another way to "get em dead".

3) As i mentioned above i agree that Cononist is maindeckable rite now. I would miss the interaction of displacer and priest but i definitely think your head is in the rite place.
This is just random rambling.

[kratos]

I can definitely see Canonist in the main, but do love the Priests. It really helps with the show and tell matchup, reanimator and dredge, where as I feel that the storm matchup is already really favorable for us. However Canonist would add to the elves matchup.

I played in a small 23 person tournament this past weekend and lost in the semi-finals taking 3/4th. I used the same 75 as previously posted.

Round 1: Bye - was fine with this but looking to test.

Round 2: Sneak and Show 2-0
Played T1 Karakas into T2 little Thalia into T3 Revoker naming Griselbrand and scooped. Game 2 he stalled me for a bit with Blood moon on T2. Found the disenchant to get colorless and displace his Griselbrand to swing in for the win.

Round 3: Lands 2-1
Still a super rough match. Won a grindy game one and misplayed game two. Ended up pulling off the game 3 by just a turn.

Round 4: Lands.. again.. 1-2
Game one he had the double punishing fire with groves and I drew lands for 7 turns. Ripped a Smasher off the top and he wasted my Karakas. Forgot to play the other in my hand before swinging in and he made the token. Drew another smasher for what would have been the win had my first one survived. Game 2 I mulled to 5 and pulled off the win. Game 3 he had an early engine with double wasteland on loop and couldnt find lands to stabilize.

Round 5: Portent Miracles 2-0
This matchup was really won on the back of Cavern. Non of my creatures could be countered and he really couldnt feed his Mentor.
Both games went very smooth but were long and involded heavy decision making.

Cut to top 4 because the store had no idea what they were doing, and upset quite a few players.

Semi-finals: Infect 0-2
I mulled both games. Game 1 I was on the draw and he had the near nuts opener and I was dead on his 3rd turn.
Game 2 I lost the race to double exalted triggers on an Inkmoth. Couldnt find answers.

Overall I was still happy with the decks performance. The change I am surely making for the GP is cutting to 3 Wasteland and going up to 4 Cavern. Its an extra white source and of course helps avoid all of the counters.

I can also see cutting down to 2 big Thalia, but it is such a powerhouse against delver, lands, colorless eldrazi, and sneak and show.
I would Love to test with Lodestones and or Hero of Bladehold.

[iostream]

it is such a powerhouse against [...] sneak and show.
I've never fully understood this. Big Thalia doesn't stop Show and Tell, and they can activate Sneak Attack during our endstep to attack the following turn. I have definitely lost games to Sneak/Show where I cast a turn 1 Big Thalia...

As for maindeck Priests, I've found them pretty anemic in matchups where the ability isn't relevant by itself, but I guess it's ultimately a metagame call. Canonist has pretty much the same issue. This is one reason why I keep going back to Endless Ones, since even though they're not disruptive, they are great at shortening the clock, which I think improves your percentages similar to a tax bear by forcing your opponent to "have it" faster.

Hero is interesting as the stats and cmc are basically perfect, but my main concern as always is the WW in the casting cost, but I'm certainly interested in testing it!

I'm a lot less thrilled about Lodestone since I think taxing our own top end might be too much of a drawback. Also, I can tell you from Vintage experience that Lightning Bolt on Lodestone is a huge tempo loss; on top of that Lodestone can't swing through Delver. This makes me fearful that this will make the Grixis matchup considerably worse.

More general thoughts:

I'm also going to Vegas, and my gauntlet is the same as Phil Gallagher's gauntlet (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1066). For those who can't click, his top 4 decks are Grixis Delver, ANT, Sneak/Show, and Elves, and the other decks on his radar are Portent Miracles, D+T, "a BUG deck" (probably BUG Delver imo), Deathblade, and Dragon Stompy. This is roughly what one would conclude from the MTGO metagame, which I think is a fair assessment of how a gigantic tournament like Vegas will probably be.

As is typical in Legacy, all of those decks are going to have metagame share in the 5%-ish range. Maybe Grixis will be like 10%, maybe Portent Miracles will be 10% off hype, but I don't see any other deck being so prevalent. This is sort of why I'm always so nervous about running things like Canonist or Priest in the maindeck, since while each of those cards do hit two of the top decks on those lists, they are close to a miss versus everything else. There are obviously other matchups besides these, but they are much rarer (e.g. Reanimator, Dredge). I think the expected number of times you will play against Dredge at GP Vegas is close to zero.

But there are some obvious things I think this gauntlet suggests:

- Play the 4th Cavern. The format is becoming bluer again.
- Come prepared for equipment, and in particular, True Name. Grixis, BUG, Deathblade can all run the 3/1 in varying numbers. Bring those Disenchants and Blessed Alliances! I think it may be advisable to run a maindeck out to True Name which has other applications - i.e. something like Sword of Fire and Ice, not something like Orzhov Pontiff.
- Although... Orzhov Pontiff looks like a really good sideboard card against that gauntlet! I just hope it's castable... I might code up some simulations to see. This might be a reason to play a fourth Petal or something.
- Endbringer seems like a terrific MD flex slot option in this metagame. I think I'd be thrilled to have it play against literally all of those decks except Storm. In particular, it's another thing that is good against Show and Tell in that it's a genuine out if S+T resolves. Oblivion Sower does not look so hot.
- THC actually doesn't look so bad, I think my poor experiences in recent tournaments might just be a local metagame thing, but obviously Vegas is not going to have the same metagame as New Jersey
- This seems like the tournament to cheat on GY hate a bit. This makes a bit of sense since DRS is king of the format. I think only Dredge can really play through so much DRS.

[kratos]

I didnt think about that line of play, but it seems like neither have my opponents.

Ill admit that the priests are not great in several matchups, however the interaction with Displacer is nice and I feel like SnS will be something Id rather be maindeck prepared for at Vegas.
I am thinking of putting 2 Canonist in the board in place of the Thorns as they will hold the same role and will come in against the same matchups and much more like Aluren, Miracles, and Elves. I just cant find anything else to cut besides the Priests or 1 THC/Revoker I cant bring myself to cut down the numbers on those after testing.

Im again at a crossroads with finding a place for SoFI in the main, and would probably see cutting a revoker for it if I decide to play it.

The 4th Cavern has been helpful with a little more consistency of color/uncounterable threats.

I am also not sure if I should play 2 RIP and 2 Surgicals, or go with 4 Leylines. The Leylines are much better for the BR Reanimator match, however the other cards provide some flexibility in other matchups. Its a tough call. Has anyone had experience playing Leylines and found them to be better?

[Kaono]

Leyline requires a deck that's decent at mulliganing, which this deck would rather not do. You also basically give yourself 4 dead draws if you keep a hand without it.

If you're worried about BR Reanimator, play Faerie Macabre. Surgical shouldn't be played in Chalice decks. I play 2 Containment Priest main and 3 RIP board and though I sometimes lose to a quick BR Reanimator hand I feel like I have good chances vs all other gy decks.

You could also consider Tormod's Crypt.

[jwl3gg]

I just built this, and am enjoying it quite a bit.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15408&d=293779&f=LE

My decklist is pretty close, I took out 2 lodestone golems for Thalia, Heretical Cathar, quite a bit of Sneak and Show in my meta, and a Sword of War and Peace instead of F & I.

[metronome2charisma]

Leyline requires a deck that's decent at mulliganing, which this deck would rather not do. You also basically give yourself 4 dead draws if you keep a hand without it.

If you're worried about BR Reanimator, play Faerie Macabre. Surgical shouldn't be played in Chalice decks. I play 2 Containment Priest main and 3 RIP board and though I sometimes lose to a quick BR Reanimator hand I feel like I have good chances vs all other gy decks.

You could also consider Tormod's Crypt.

THIS! I'm going to play 3 r.i.p. and the 2 priests . i was playing 3 faerie 2 priest but more lands and less reanimator means i should be playing r.i.p.

[contra]

I've been pretty bored with the stock list lately so I decided to spice it up a bit. While it may not be the most competitive, it's tons of fun, and actually isn't too bad. There's actually a lot of card advantage here with recruiter, copter, jailer, and sfm. Going down to 3 temples feels right here with only 2 smashers. I've been impressed by how often turn 2 recruiter for jailer/priest/pontiff is just game against so many decks.

The spoiled Ixalan card Sorcerous Spyglass looks pretty bonkers in this shell... It's absolutely an auto include 4-of in this deck for me.

"As Sorcerous Spyglass enters the battlefield, look at an opponent’s hand, then choose any card name. Activated abilities of sources with the chosen name can’t be activated unless they’re mana abilities."

This thing is a pithing needle glued to a probe -perfect for all chalice decks. See your hand so I know how to sequence my plays and shut down your fetchland/depths combo/sneak attack/deathrite and the list goes on and on and on....



// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

// 23 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Reality Smasher
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Palace Jailer
1 Containment Priest
1 Orzhov Pontiff

// 12 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Smuggler's Copter


// 15 Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant

[metronome2charisma]

For anyone that didn't see it
https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-eldrazi-taxes/

Also
http://eternalmagic.com.br/en/2017/06/deck-tech-eldrazi-and-taxes/

[metronome2charisma]

I'm trying to build a version that is still great against combo but has a great delver and DnT matchup . I'm particularly looking for a build that has zero fat and every card is high impact . Ballista is the one card I'm not sure of . its really powerful but i'm not sure if its aggressive enough but i know its good against the named match ups. I feel like this build should have a ton of game against most of the field . Looking for input on this one guys, its playing a lot of cards i don't normally play
This is the list i'm going to test first . the Stoneforge package can be sub'd for 2 smugglers copters and a blade splicer.

10 artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 batterskull


25 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality smasher - Not the best with golem or against blood moon but over all a really powerful creature
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Walking Ballista
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Lodestone golem
2 Stoneforge mystic
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 blade splicer
1 Palace jailer

25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

sb
2 thorn of amethyst
3 containment preist
1 holy light
3 faerie macabre
2 Disenchant
1 ratchet bomb
2 blessed alliance

INPUT.

[cdnza]

Are people playing SFM at the moment? For those that are, how has it been for you?

[MD.Ghost]

Are people playing SFM at the moment? For those that are, how has it been for you?

Nope - still a powerfull card but a) slow (and if this thread, even thalia 2.0 seemed not aggressiv enough), b) no human as a cc2 - which means fast - creature can be problematic c) equip/artifacts are hated g2-3 etc.

---------

My current list:

// 60 Maindeck

// 9 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// 26 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista
3 Blade Splicer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Palace Jailer

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Wasteland


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance


5-0 my last 5 matchups with it, first i cutted thalia 2.0 (still awesome vs lands, elves etc.) to try a more aggressiv game plan (ballista over revoker is already a solid step forward too), i loaded up a bit on "bombs" and think palace jailer and resto. angel are both still good cards if you play a white stompy deck. Angel will not only save some dudes against removal it will also like to catch splicer, Jailer or sided Pontiffs. Overall a cc4, 3/4 Flash, Flyer isnt so bad against various situations too.

@metronome2charisma

If you want to go with golems i would test the following version:

// 60 Maindeck

// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Smuggler's Copter

// 25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista
3 Blade Splicer
3 Lodestone Golem

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Palace Jailer
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance

Golem+Splicer and more artifacts than old versions of it (see start of the Thread here), including Copter and Ballista (both solid T1 Plays etc.) - but keep in mind, that Golem isn't an answer to delver because nearly every delver decks has bolts and can stall with nasty beaters like Angler/TNN/Gofy or a horde of elemental tokens too. Against DnT Golem can be okay IF they not have a vial and needs to pay for creatures and must decide if they want blockers (in case of an 5power attacker) or manadenial etc.

[metronome2charisma]

Thanks Ghost. i've updated my list to reflect the changes with my preferences . I'll keep everyone updated .

my newest list for reference.


11 Non creature
4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Smuggler's Copter

25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista
2 Blade Splicer
2 Palace Jailer
1 restoration angel

25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
3 Wasteland

15 Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Containment Priest
3 Fearie Macabre
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Disenchant
1 Forsake the Worldly
2 Blessed Alliance
2 holy light

[cdnza]

Nope - still a powerfull card but a) slow (and if this thread, even thalia 2.0 seemed not aggressiv enough), b) no human as a cc2 - which means fast - creature can be problematic c) equip/artifacts are hated g2-3 etc.

Thanks for the reply! How has Ballista been testing for you? I'm going to build a deck similar to this next week and I'm trying to figure out exactly what to play. I love the idea of playing cards like Blade Splicer which play well alongside Displacer. I notice people seem to have stopped playing Revoker too - do you ever miss having it?

edit: I wanted to ask you about that Corrupted Crossroads version of Eldrazi you were working on too from the other thread. Have you stopped playing that in favour of straight white versions like these?

[metronome2charisma]

Ballista is now a 4 of in my deck . started at 1 then slowly went to 4. Card is awesome. Against the creature match ups its almost like having 4 more jitte in your deck. Blade splicer as a 2 off has been solid.

[MD.Ghost]

Thanks for the reply! How has Ballista been testing for you? I'm going to build a deck similar to this next week and I'm trying to figure out exactly what to play. I love the idea of playing cards like Blade Splicer which play well alongside Displacer. I notice people seem to have stopped playing Revoker too - do you ever miss having it?

edit: I wanted to ask you about that Corrupted Crossroads version of Eldrazi you were working on too from the other thread. Have you stopped playing that in favour of straight white versions like these?

Ballista is super solid, it is very good in most cases and can be an early beater or finisher (even if you arent able to attack against bridge/tnn). Clearly a 4off because if you look back this deck is very removal light and also needed fast colorless stuff. Blade Splicer is often 2:1 and adds up 4 Power which is good for cc3. The bonus with displacer can be critical for your opponents removal, because the 3/3 body should be the common target, which leaves the little 1/1, but casting displacer later means trouble :wink:

Revoker simply is only a 2/1 which is blocked by some of his targets (DS, Mother etc.) too and is only good at an empty board (ANT; Belcher; Sneak Show etc.), which means i like him vs combo but we have enough other good cards against combo so i cutted him in favour of Ballista&Co.

@Eldrazi yes i have found any real Splash better than the simple colorless Versions but i still tinker with different ideas of the tentacle stuff.


Ballista is now a 4 of in my deck . started at 1 then slowly went to 4. Card is awesome. Against the creature match ups its almost like having 4 more jitte in your deck. Blade splicer as a 2 off has been solid.

Yeah - clearly a good improvment for this deck, even if you cant abuse it with displacer, but it adds up quickly if you have 4 Ballista, 4 Displacer and 2 Jailer at main - this alone can be a good start against various creatures, add sideboard removal spells and you get a good amount of removal stuff.

------

I lately tinkered around with various splashes/ideas.

For me the Blade Splicer/Angel Version is very solid and aggressiv - works good so far.

I also brewed up with little U Splash for Trinket Mage (tutors Ballista, Chalice, Mox/Petal, B.Collar or T.Crypt from Side etc.) or little Bomberman-Style with 2 Auriok Salvager (to get back Ballista) and Lotus Petal over Mox. Alot of room for some ideas IF you dont fear Moon effects.

[cris_rj]

Ballista is super solid, it is very good in most cases and can be an early beater or finisher (even if you arent able to attack against bridge/tnn). Clearly a 4off because if you look back this deck is very removal light and also needed fast colorless stuff. Blade Splicer is often 2:1 and adds up 4 Power which is good for cc3. The bonus with displacer can be critical for your opponents removal, because the 3/3 body should be the common target, which leaves the little 1/1, but casting displacer later means trouble :wink:

Revoker simply is only a 2/1 which is blocked by some of his targets (DS, Mother etc.) too and is only good at an empty board (ANT; Belcher; Sneak Show etc.), which means i like him vs combo but we have enough other good cards against combo so i cutted him in favour of Ballista&Co.

@Eldrazi yes i have found any real Splash better than the simple colorless Versions but i still tinker with different ideas of the tentacle stuff.



Yeah - clearly a good improvment for this deck, even if you cant abuse it with displacer, but it adds up quickly if you have 4 Ballista, 4 Displacer and 2 Jailer at main - this alone can be a good start against various creatures, add sideboard removal spells and you get a good amount of removal stuff.

------

I lately tinkered around with various splashes/ideas.

For me the Blade Splicer/Angel Version is very solid and aggressiv - works good so far.

I also brewed up with little U Splash for Trinket Mage (tutors Ballista, Chalice, Mox/Petal, B.Collar or T.Crypt from Side etc.) or little Bomberman-Style with 2 Auriok Salvager (to get back Ballista) and Lotus Petal over Mox. Alot of room for some ideas IF you dont fear Moon effects.




Can you share your bomberman/monoWeldrazi list ? Bouth are my pets decks !

[metronome2charisma]

Got 5th at an EE gold satellite. Feel like if i would've played a little better i coulda beat my u/r delver opponent in top 8. Deck was great all day.

[cris_rj]

Got 5th at an EE gold satellite. Feel like if i would've played a little better i coulda beat my u/r delver opponent in top top 8. Deck was great all day.



Deck build ?

[metronome2charisma]

Deck build ?

Posted above.

[keys]

I've been playing Ballista a lot recently as well and have been pleased with how well it fits in this deck. The ability to pay 2 to remove lots of annoying things like Delver, Pyromancer, Strix, opposing Thalias or Flickerwisps, as well as machine-gun things down in the late game is just gravy. By adding Ballista, it's allowed me to trim down the number of Jittes to 1 (multiples are bad, and it's a nonbo with Thalia/Thorn). If I ever have 4 mana, Ballista feels like the better play 90% of the time, as it enables Copter and can shoot things as soon as it enters play. Sure, you can split the cost of Jitte over 2 turns but in my experience you want to be playing creatures if you're still on 1-2 lands. 4 Ballista 0 Jitte might be correct.

I'm still skeptical of Jailer (double white is hard), Blade Splicer (too cute), and Restoration Angel (not human, so similar problem as Jailer). Thalia, Heretic Cathar is still performing well for me in those slots. She really helps close out games fast when you're on the offensive, removing blockers and keeping the mana-denial plan active.

Here's my current list:

3 Walking Ballista
3 Phyrexian Revoker (3rd Revoker could also be the 4th Ballista)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Karakas
5 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Disenchant
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Holy Light

In the sideboard, I keep switching back and forth between Faerie and RiP, and tinkering with the number of Priests. I still think 4 StP is correct. Disenchants could be Cast Outs or the 2W cycling disenchant. Still testing Blessed Alliance and Holy Light which are both quite situational.

[cdnza]

I've just about got all the pieces I was missing for the deck, so should get to take it for a test run in the next week finally. I want to try Stoneforge Mystic out to start with but I realise that most of you have dropped it from the deck by now. Here's what I was going to start with:

4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Walking Ballista
1 Palace Jailer
1 Containment Priest
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Holy Light
1 Palace Jailer
2 Rest in Peace
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst

I should have all the other cards people have been posting about lately too so will experiment but want to play with the vanilla deck a bit to start with. I have been thinking more and more about Smuggler's Copter now that we seem to be on Ballista though.

[keys]

The main issue with SFM is that your creatures are fat enough to win in combat versus most fair decks anyway. Thalia 2.0 helps a lot in this respect by clearing a path through blockers. In my experience, equiping ends up slowing you down when you could be sinking mana into Displacer and controlling the board that way. For this reason I think SFM is better in control decks like Quellblade which actually want to play defense and stabilize with the lifegain.

You really only have to worry about TNN (maybe Goyf sometimes) and SFM doesn't help you there.

The other issue with SFM is it's not a human so it can be awkward to cast early with only 10-11 non Caverns white sources.

Try out the SFM package and then try Copters. Also, I still like Revokers as an answer DRS, walkers, and as support in the combo matchup.

[cdnza]

The main issue with SFM is that your creatures are fat enough to win in combat versus most fair decks anyway. Thalia 2.0 helps a lot in this respect by clearing a path through blockers. In my experience, equiping ends up slowing you down when you could be sinking mana into Displacer and controlling the board that way. For this reason I think SFM is better in control decks like Quellblade which actually want to play defense and stabilize with the lifegain.

You really only have to worry about TNN (maybe Goyf sometimes) and SFM doesn't help you there.

The other issue with SFM is it's not a human so it can be awkward to cast early with only 10-11 non Caverns white sources.

Try out the SFM package and then try Copters. Also, I still like Revokers as an answer DRS, walkers, and as support in the combo matchup.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. If I cut the three SFMs and the Batterskull I get 4 slots. Could become the 4th Ballista, 2 copters and a 3rd Thalia2?

[MGB]

Got 5th at an EE gold satellite. Feel like if i would've played a little better i coulda beat my u/r delver opponent in top 8. Deck was great all day.

Wow where are the EE satellites? I can't find info on these at all. I was wondering if there were any in the PA area I could attend.

[Barook]

Since Ballista is getting more popular, I have to ask again:

If decks run both Ballista and SFM in sufficient numbers, wouldn't a single Basilisk Collar a good idea? Ballista turns into a killing machine while Thalias get combat supremacy with it and Reality Smasher makes blocks really looking silly. SFM also helps getting around Chalice @1, if necessary.

[keys]

Since Ballista is getting more popular, I have to ask again:

If decks run both Ballista and SFM in sufficient numbers, wouldn't a single Basilisk Collar a good idea? Ballista turns into a killing machine while Thalias get combat supremacy with it and Reality Smasher makes blocks really looking silly. SFM also helps getting around Chalice @1, if necessary.

I might try it out as a SB option. In a lot of the matchups where you want it (Eldrazi, D&T, etc.) you are boarding Chalice out, so it could work.