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Rmosto

08-17-2016, 11:16 AM

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/mtgfanatic/images/a/a8/Stf187_tha.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120706060724
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THALIA STOMPY

Introduction

If you love the cards Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Phyrexian Revoker and Chalice of the Void, this deck is for you!

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Phyrexian Revoker and Chalice of the Void are three of the strongest stompy cards in the format. Thalia Stompy is a deck that aims to disrupt the opponent's game plan using creatures and sphere effects while providing diverse and resilient forms of pressure to close the game quickly.

The cornerstones of the deck are the Thalias alongside Karakas and Cavern of Souls. In a predominantly spell and fetchland format, having either of these creatures in play early on is a must answer threat. The resiliency is found in the redundancy of having many copies, and the common scenario that casting them is uncounterable and removing them is difficult due to the protection from Karakas. The Thalias most frequently win you a match.

Chalice of the Void and Phyrexian Revoker are two of the best prison cards in the format and are perfect fits alongside the Thalias. Stoneforge Mystic is a great sidekick for Thalias. Batterskull beats many decks on its own and first strike creatures are the best at carrying equipment like Umezawa's Jitte.

The Manabase is built around the strategy of landing a turn one card that is very disruptive for your opponent. A possible configuration is to run 4 Ancient Tombs and 3 City of Traitors alongside 3 Mox Diamond.

Rounding out the rest of the deck are Thought-Knot Seer as it is one of the best creatures ever printed and Reality Smasher to provide some larger beats.

Sample Decklist

Lands: 26

6 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland

Spells: 10

3 Mox Diamond
1 Warping Wail
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void

Creatures: 24

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

SB: 15

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Rest in Peace
3 Dismember
2 Warping Wail
2 Winter Orb

Comparisons with Death and Taxes (DNT):

Let me first say that DNT is one of the best and most resilient decks in the format. Thalia Stompy borrows many of the creatures from that deck that make it great. However a choice has to be made between running Aether Vial and having explosive turn one plays such as Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Thalia Stompy is a deck that is trying to go in the other direction and focus on a turn one explosive play.

Match Ups and Sideboarding to come soon.

Rmosto

Cire

08-17-2016, 11:46 AM

Oh, this looks similar to something I posted in the Conspiracy thread. My list takes advantage of the new card Sanctum Prelate to get turns like:

Turn 1: Land, Mox Diamond, chalice on 1
Turn 2: Land, Sanctum Prelate, "2"
Turn 3: Wasteland, Crucible of Worlds

Additionally, the Prelate can name 6 against Miracles. . . .

-----

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Sanctum Prelate
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

4 Crucible
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors

RobNC

08-17-2016, 11:58 AM

Cire

08-17-2016, 12:02 PM

I think Sanctum Prelate may be even better than SFM that most people have been trying in that slot because you can truly lock people out of so much of their deck. Many answers for Chalice are 2CMC.

And if you limit the Eldrazi to just TKS and RS (and maybe Displacer), you can go a little heavier on white sources, too.

Yeah - Prelate on 1 against delver is basically chalice 5-8 on legs. Prelate on 2 is even cheaper than chalice - and wrecks some decks. Prelate on 6 stop terminus. . .

Whitefaces

08-17-2016, 12:24 PM

owerbart

08-17-2016, 12:25 PM

What is the difference between this and W Eldrazi? or the million eldrazi stompy lists/threads floating around? just the addition of the new thalia?

Rmosto

08-17-2016, 12:27 PM

I have been optimizing this list for a month straight and just after I write up a primer, minutes later they spoil a new chalice hatebear....Now everything needs to be reevaluated. It is a bit funny actually.

Sanctum Prelate seems very strong and definitely needs consideration. I am very hesitant to remove SFM and the equipment package completely as it wins me countless games against dnt, delver, infect and shardless bug.

The question I find myself asking is: Against which matchups does it improve my win percentage?

Definitely not Miracles, DNT, Storm or Eldrazi. Miracles is defeated using Cavern, Karakas, Chalice, Winder Orb and Thorn of Amethyst (All non creatures). Chalice on 1 is best against DNT. Thalia, Thorn, Chalice and Revoker are all turn one plays in this build that virtually guarantee wins in games 2-3 against Storm. The SFM and Equipment Package is what beats Eldrazi. I think Sanctum Prelate is very good against lands, jund, delver, loam decks. While I love Crucible of World in Vintage, I think it is a bit too slow to be consistent in legacy. What do you guys think? Which matchups does Sanctum Prelate improve? What would you take out?

Rmosto

08-17-2016, 12:37 PM

What is the difference between this and W Eldrazi? or the million eldrazi stompy lists/threads floating around? just the addition of the new thalia?

Well to start, most of the time there is only 4 TKS in the deck...So that is 4 Eldrazi. When Playing this deck my hands almost never have an Eldrazi Spell. What I want to see in my hand is thalia, revoker, cavern, karakas, plains.

Let me list all of the cards in Eldrazi Stompy that this deck does not want to play

Eye of Ugin
Eldrazi Displacer
Eldrazi Mimic
Endless One
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Simian Spirit Guide
ect..

Roughly 30 cards from typical Eldrazi lists or 50 percent of a deck. I'd say that strategy and focus is a bit different.

square_two

08-17-2016, 12:40 PM

Cires list looks ridiculously powerful, I'll try and get some practice games in with friends this weekend and report back.

I think it needs a few more W sources though, Karsten recommends 17-18 iirc. Maybe -2 City -1 Eldrazi Temple -1 Crucible of Worlds + 4 Plains?

Another option is 4 Flagstones of Trokair, and then experiment with some number of Armageddon?

Also, Cires' list has only 1 card with activated abilities...Wasteland. Sounds like a nice deck to main or side some Suppresion Fields.
Edit: Karakas too I suppose.
Edit2: Think I could just seee both 'Geddon and S Field in the side. Flagstones still ok though.

Whitefaces

08-17-2016, 12:47 PM

Another option is 4 Flagstones of Trokair, and then experiment with some number of Armageddon?

Also, Cires' list has only 1 card with activated abilities...Wasteland. Sounds like a nice deck to main or side some Suppresion Fields.
Edit: Karakas too I suppose.
Edit2: Think I could just seee both 'Geddon and S Field in the side. Flagstones still ok though.

I don't think you want Armageddon in a deck with Thalia, better to focus on taxing them and aggroing out rather than something like mass LD.

Mm, Suppression Field is a good idea! Jeez, this deck is brutal...

Cire

08-17-2016, 12:50 PM

What is the difference between this and W Eldrazi? or the million eldrazi stompy lists/threads floating around? just the addition of the new thalia?

I think White Eldrazi plus New Thalia or Death and Taxes plus Eldrazi deserves a new thread instead of junking up both the Death and Taxes and Eldrazi Threads.

Cires list looks ridiculously powerful, I'll try and get some practice games in with friends this weekend and report back.

I think it needs a few more W sources though, Karsten recommends 17-18 iirc. Maybe -2 City -1 Eldrazi Temple -1 Crucible of Worlds + 4 Plains?

Those changes sound good!

Edit: another thought - we can take out the Smashers and put in Metamorphs . . . copying Prelate or Thoughtseize turn 3 sounds . . . evil.

Whitefaces

08-17-2016, 12:58 PM

Cire

08-17-2016, 12:59 PM

Rather have Crucible Lock than Suppression Field, but that's just personal preference at that point :laugh:

Whitefaces

08-17-2016, 01:04 PM

Rather have Crucible Lock than Suppression Field, but that's just personal preference at that point :laugh:

I think the main idea is to land something that messes up the opponent from turn one, rather than get any lock down. The lock aspect then comes from playing additional hate pieces every turn after that. With access to Chalice, Field and Thalia 1.0, Thalia 2.0 turn one that's a lot of redundancy to get the ball rolling.

Rmosto

08-17-2016, 01:16 PM

Something along the lines of this maybe? Without Crucibles Mox Ds are harder to support, but I agree that Crucible is probably too slow and doesn't do enough.

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Sanctum Prelate
3 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

4 Suppression Field
2 Mox Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void

8 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Wasteland
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors

I like the decklist. My only comment is that suppression field is very risky as your turn one explosive play because it can get countered or dazed easily and then you are in trouble. I play tested it a lot with a similar idea of using lotus petals or moxen for acceleration. I find it a terrible topdeck later on as well. In my experience, it is best to avoid a turn one 1W play unless you use Cavern to power out a thalia. But even in this case I like to have Karakas ready to bounce it back to my hand in response to a removal spell. The problem with suppression field is that it gets MUCH worse after turn 2 while Thalia only gets a little worse. I like having Chalice, Revoker and Thorn as your turn one disruption. These two drop spells all cost 2 and can be cast easily in sequential turns after the opponent loses card advantage casting FOW or tempo with Daze.

My thoughts with Sanctum Prelate is that he is not going to be the ideal turn 2 lock piece that we are envisioning. I think he will however be very strong in the later stages of the game when we have traded resources with our opponent, a few thalias/revokers/THS killed and it is clear which types of cards the opponent needs to pull ahead. That is when you can cast the Sanctum Prelate uncounterable to seal the deal.

Whitefaces

08-17-2016, 01:21 PM

I like the decklist. My only comment is that suppression field is very risky as your turn one explosive play because it can get countered or dazed easily and then you are in trouble. I play tested it a lot with a similar idea of using lotus petals or moxen for acceleration. I find it a terrible topdeck later on as well. In my experience, it is best to avoid a turn one 1W play unless you use Cavern to power out a thalia. But even in this case I like to have Karakas ready to bounce it back to my hand in response to a removal spell. The problem with suppression field is that it gets MUCH worse after turn 2 while Thalia only gets a little worse. I like having Chalice, Revoker and Thorn as your turn one disruption. These two drop spells all cost 2 and can be cast easily in sequential turns after the opponent loses card advantage casting FOW or tempo with Daze.

My thoughts with Sanctum Prelate is that he is not going to be the ideal turn 2 lock piece that we are envisioning. I think he will however be very strong in the later stages of the game when we have traded resources with our opponent, a few thalias/revokers/THS killed and it is clear which types of cards the opponent needs to pull ahead. That is when you can cast the Sanctum Prelate uncounterable to seal the deal.

Fair points, Thorn could very well be better than Suppression Field here. I'll try both.

Agree on your assessment of Prelate too, it's not a T2 play usually but will be strong at all stages of the game.

Cire

08-17-2016, 01:39 PM

Yeah, so I made some proxies and dealt myself some hands (running my deck list, plus Dissection's changes to it, plus -3 crucible and +3 metamorph) and holy. . . .

Examples:

Turn 1 - Ancient Tomb + Mox Diamond + Thalia, Cathar
Turn 2 - Cavern of Souls + Thought Knot

Turn 1 - (after mulligan) Plains + Mox Diamond + Thalia, Guardian
Turn 2 - Plains + Prelate
Turn 3 - Metamorph (copy prelate)

Turn 1 - Ancient Tomb + Chalice of the Void
Turn 2 - Eldrazi Temple + Revoker
Turn 3 - Plains + Smasher

Barook

08-17-2016, 01:49 PM

MD.Ghost

08-17-2016, 01:59 PM

Displacer should be much better than Smasher. You gain a lot of Utility, lower cc and can abuse it with your own EtB Creatures (and protect them).

Cire

08-17-2016, 02:10 PM

Question is: How many Prelates do we need?

For the sake of consistency, couldn't we run a few Recruiter of the Guard, even if it costs a bit of tempo? It fetches Revoker, both Thalias, Prelate, SB hate bears like Containment Priest/Canonist, hell, even Metamorph for whatever unholy shenanigans you're going to do with that.

I think the consistency of the deck is its strength over what I assume D&T's tool box approach with Recruiter is going to be.

Displacer should be much better than Smasher. You gain a lot of Utility, lower cc and can abuse it with your own EtB Creatures (and protect them).

From my Eldrazi exp, Smasher is just such a beating. I like Displacer, and that's why I was a White Eldrazi player, but smasher is just a brutal card.

Rmosto

08-17-2016, 02:20 PM

Displacer should be much better than Smasher. You gain a lot of Utility, lower cc and can abuse it with your own EtB Creatures (and protect them).

The main matchup for Reality smasher is against DNT, I board it out against almost all other matchups. DNT is a big part of the meta (and growing). When I land a reality smasher against them it is pretty much game over. Against ports and wastelands reality smasher seems better than Displacer. I am curious why you think Displacer is better. I find Displacer below average in the delver, miracles and DNT matchups. That being said, Smasher is a niche card in the deck, mainly to close out against DNT and sometimes the other midrange fair decks.

square_two

08-17-2016, 02:39 PM

I like the decklist. My only comment is that suppression field is very risky as your turn one explosive play because it can get countered or dazed easily and then you are in trouble. I play tested it a lot with a similar idea of using lotus petals or moxen for acceleration. I find it a terrible topdeck later on as well. In my experience, it is best to avoid a turn one 1W play unless you use Cavern to power out a thalia. But even in this case I like to have Karakas ready to bounce it back to my hand in response to a removal spell. The problem with suppression field is that it gets MUCH worse after turn 2 while Thalia only gets a little worse. I like having Chalice, Revoker and Thorn as your turn one disruption. These two drop spells all cost 2 and can be cast easily in sequential turns after the opponent loses card advantage casting FOW or tempo with Daze.

My thoughts with Sanctum Prelate is that he is not going to be the ideal turn 2 lock piece that we are envisioning. I think he will however be very strong in the later stages of the game when we have traded resources with our opponent, a few thalias/revokers/THS killed and it is clear which types of cards the opponent needs to pull ahead. That is when you can cast the Sanctum Prelate uncounterable to seal the deal.

Agreed abaout the Prelate.

Any of your turn 1 plays can be forced unless it is a pretty specific creature + cavern + mox/accel play, so I don't really see the argument there. T1 Suppression Field can be an even bigger beating than Chalice in certain matchups - your opponent's fetches are completely horrible and it helps keep you safe from Wasteland (if we cut the Crucibles). Yeah it can be a bad topdeck but it can come down mid-game and still slow down top activations, elves, prevent D&T from necessary equips or porting, etc.

Glad you started this thread, I'm crossing my fingers that my pre-orders are honored and I get the chance to try this deck out :smile:

Rmosto

08-17-2016, 02:55 PM

Agreed abaout the Prelate.

Any of your turn 1 plays can be forced unless it is a pretty specific creature + cavern + mox/accel play, so I don't really see the argument there. T1 Suppression Field can be an even bigger beating than Chalice in certain matchups - your opponent's fetches are completely horrible and it helps keep you safe from Wasteland (if we cut the Crucibles). Yeah it can be a bad topdeck but it can come down mid-game and still slow down top activations, elves, prevent D&T from necessary equips or porting, etc.

Glad you started this thread, I'm crossing my fingers that my pre-orders are honored and I get the chance to try this deck out :smile:

Thanks for the feedback! Let me try again with my argument since I did a bad job explaining what I meant. First, let me say that I totally agree. T1 or T2 suppression field is back breaking for many decks. That being said, the two drops (2 not 1W) like chalice, revoker and thorn are superior to the 1W in that you don't need to go out of your way and lose tempo or card advantage to try and resolve it. If you go for it and it fails, you fall behind significantly. But the Chalice, Revoker, Thorn plan is right on curve with your sol lands so there is less risk albeit less reward. Now the niche case is the turn 1 thalia with a cavern and that is worth the card disadvantage for a huge swing in tempo, especially if you are on the play.

In all, I agree. Stoping activated abilities is amazing in legacy. That is why I am so high on revoker and consider it the CORE of the deck along with thalia and chalice. Stopping a Vial activations or shutting down equipment, Planeswalkers, deathrites ect the list does on.

Against DNT, I am not that afraid of port and wasteland because we should be running plenty of plains, (At least 6 in my opinion). Furthermore, with so many sol lands and a high land count, their mana denial stragegy almost never works against this deck. At any moment you can jam a stoneforge and a jitte to close the game.

MD.Ghost

08-17-2016, 03:10 PM

The main matchup for Reality smasher is against DNT, I board it out against almost all other matchups. DNT is a big part of the meta (and growing). When I land a reality smasher against them it is pretty much game over. Against ports and wastelands reality smasher seems better than Displacer. I am curious why you think Displacer is better. I find Displacer below average in the delver, miracles and DNT matchups. That being said, Smasher is a niche card in the deck, mainly to close out against DNT and sometimes the other midrange fair decks.

A card that is only for one deck (ok DtB) at your maindeck seems not so good...DnT aims at your mana which means it will prevent you from casting Smasher. Displacer is very good vs DnT (sure it is more a skilltest than a hasty-trample-beater) and many other decks. It also needs less mana, which means Manadenial isn't so strong against it - Bonus: You can use your own Manadenial more often. Smasher was the first card i cut down the last weeks i brewed with heavy White Eldrazi Lists including both Thalias and Wastelands (like this deck, but without the new white toys)

square_two

08-17-2016, 03:20 PM

Thanks for the feedback! Let me try again with my argument since I did a bad job explaining what I meant. First, let me say that I totally agree. T1 or T2 suppression field is back breaking for many decks. That being said, the two drops (2 not 1W) like chalice, revoker and thorn are superior to the 1W in that you don't need to go out of your way and lose tempo or card advantage to try and resolve it. If you go for it and it fails, you fall behind significantly. But the Chalice, Revoker, Thorn plan is right on curve with your sol lands so there is less risk albeit less reward. Now the niche case is the turn 1 thalia with a cavern and that is worth the card disadvantage for a huge swing in tempo, especially if you are on the play.

In all, I agree. Stoping activated abilities is amazing in legacy. That is why I am so high on revoker and consider it the CORE of the deck along with thalia and chalice. Stopping a Vial activations or shutting down equipment, Planeswalkers, deathrites ect the list does on.

Against DNT, I am not that afraid of port and wasteland because we should be running plenty of plains, (At least 6 in my opinion). Furthermore, with so many sol lands and a high land count, their mana denial stragegy almost never works against this deck. At any moment you can jam a stoneforge and a jitte to close the game.

Thanks for the clarification, that does make more sense. I'm still not sure how you necessarily lose card advantage if you go Plains->Mox->Field and it is countered versus Ancient Tomb->Chalice being countered, or Plains->Mox->Chalice. You still have the additional mana to use following turns. Playing with Petals, sure, but I think I'd rather have Mox Diamonds as acceleration (doubly/triply so with Crucible). But totally right that a cost of 2 is waaay easier to get into play turn 1 versus 1W.

Also probably worth it, if this deck is as strong as it looks on paper, to really examine the meta and which matchups you think S Field would really help. Fetchlands are the biggest killer, since Revoker can't name lands. It could be uneccessary hate new consideringThalia/Chalice/Prelate/Revoker tho.

Rmosto

08-17-2016, 03:27 PM

A card that is only for one deck (ok DtB) at your maindeck seems not so good...DnT aims at your mana which means it will prevent you from casting Smasher. Displacer is very good vs DnT (sure it is more a skilltest than a hasty-trample-beater) and many other decks. It also needs less mana, which means Manadenial isn't so strong against it - Bonus: You can use your own Manadenial more often. Smasher was the first card i cut down the last weeks i brewed with heavy White Eldrazi Lists including both Thalias and Wastelands (like this deck, but without the new white toys)

I'm not sure what are you getting at saying displacer is more of a skilltest. I suppose that is supposed to be some kind of dig. I am not saying displacer is a bad card. Bottom line, in my play testing, Smasher outperformed Displacer. Especially against death and taxes. Certainly against any lightning bolt deck. Against Miracles, you need a creature that has an impact the turn it is cast. All displacer is going to do is bail you out when you face a bunch of angel tokens. Against Grixis Delver and Bug Delver it is much more vulnerable. It dies to all of their removal. Against DNT Smasher wins the equipment jitte battle and survives most combat scenarios that displacer will lose. I am not trying to make this personal, I am genuinely curious in which scenarios displacer shined. Please elaborate.

Barook

08-17-2016, 03:46 PM

I'm not sure what are you getting at saying displacer is more of a skilltest. I suppose that is supposed to be some kind of dig. I am not saying displacer is a bad card. Bottom line, in my play testing, Smasher outperformed Displacer. Especially against death and taxes. Certainly against any lightning bolt deck. Against Miracles, you need a creature that has an impact the turn it is cast. All displacer is going to do is bail you out when you face a bunch of angel tokens. Against Grixis Delver and Bug Delver it is much more vulnerable. It dies to all of their removal. Against DNT Smasher wins the equipment jitte battle and survives most combat scenarios that displacer will lose. I am not trying to make this personal, I am genuinely curious in which scenarios displacer shined. Please elaborate.
From my experience, Displacer is an excellent card vs D&T, aka "kill it on sight". It manhandles their equipment and flyers with ease.

But I don't see any reason not to run both Smasher and Displacer.

Nekrataal

08-17-2016, 04:54 PM

I have been testing a quite similar deck for some time now just struggling with GBx decks in generel and Smasher is simply a little bit too expensive without Eye. Hence just 3 exemplars. With the new cards from Conspiracy new options emerge I haven't explored yet. Maybe it is time to cut Smashers completely for a more permission centric approach.

Lands (25 Karten)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

Creatures (22 Karten)
3 Stoneforge
3 Thalia 1.0
3 Thalia 2.0
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer

Other Spells (13 Karten)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Valorous Stance
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard (15 Karten)
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Contaiment Priest
1 Elspeth 1.0
2 Austere Command
2 Worship
1 Crucible of Worlds

RobNC

08-17-2016, 09:05 PM

From my experience, Displacer is an excellent card vs D&T, aka "kill it on sight". It manhandles their equipment and flyers with ease.

But I don't see any reason not to run both Smasher and Displacer.

The only time I've played against Displacer was in a D&T mirror match and Displacer wrecked me. Mom doesn't do anything about it, and it was hard for me to apply pressure because he'd keep blinking my best threat each time (which, like you mention, is often an equipped creature, or flyer, or both!).

Having Eldrazi Temple in the deck makes activating the blink cheaper, too. Only effectively costs two lands with Temple.

As for D&T playing against colorless Eldrazi, Reality Smasher is also hard for D&T to deal with but now with two Thalias combining for 5 first strike power it's easier for D&T to block it and kill it.

Rmosto

08-17-2016, 11:26 PM

The only time I've played against Displacer was in a D&T mirror match and Displacer wrecked me. Mom doesn't do anything about it, and it was hard for me to apply pressure because he'd keep blinking my best threat each time (which, like you mention, is often an equipped creature, or flyer, or both!).

Having Eldrazi Temple in the deck makes activating the blink cheaper, too. Only effectively costs two lands with Temple.

As for D&T playing against colorless Eldrazi, Reality Smasher is also hard for D&T to deal with but now with two Thalias combining for 5 first strike power it's easier for D&T to block it and kill it.

Barook and Rob, thanks for the feedback. Time to test displacer again.

MasterBlaster

08-18-2016, 12:26 AM

I haven't seen it mentioned yet. Is there any reason for this deck to not run some amount of Lodestone Golems?

DisgruntledElk

08-18-2016, 02:04 AM

I haven't seen it mentioned yet. Is there any reason for this deck to not run some amount of Lodestone Golems?

I have actually eschewed the Smashers entirely in favor of them. I have been having good success on MODO with this list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/competitive-legacy-league-2016-08-12#online

Creatures: 22
2 SFM
2 Revoker
3 Thalia, GoT
3 Displacer
4 Thalia, HC
4 Thought-Knot
4 Lodestone

Spells: 12
4 Chalice
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Mox Diamond

Lands: 26
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Eldrazi Temple
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland

SB: 15
2 Needle
3 STP
2 Disenchant
2 Containment Priest
3 RIP
2 Thorn
1 Warping Wail

EDIT: It looks like someone took 74/75 of my list and 5-0'ed another league https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/460592#online Glad to see it isn't just me! :)

Rmosto

08-18-2016, 08:35 AM

I have actually eschewed the Smashers entirely in favor of them. I have been having good success on MODO with this list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/competitive-legacy-league-2016-08-12#online

Creatures: 22
2 SFM
2 Revoker
3 Thalia, GoT
3 Displacer
4 Thalia, HC
4 Thought-Knot
4 Lodestone

Spells: 12
4 Chalice
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Mox Diamond

Lands: 26
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Eldrazi Temple
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland

SB: 15
2 Needle
3 STP
2 Disenchant
2 Containment Priest
3 RIP
2 Thorn
1 Warping Wail

EDIT: It looks like someone took 74/75 of my list and 5-0'ed another league https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/460592#online Glad to see it isn't just me! :)

I like lodestone golem a lot as well. It is a great choice. I totally agree on swapping out smasher for golem as a good option.

Cire

08-18-2016, 09:15 AM

Totally forgot about Golem! Yeah in this deck Lodestone sounds better than smasher and metamorph.

My question is whether SFM is worth playing vs any of the 4 following cards (2 SFM 1 Batterskull 1 Jitte?)

For example this list:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Sanctum Prelate
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

5 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
2 Karakas

----
Chalice into Thalia, into Lodestone, into Prelate, into Thoughtknot just sounds . . . . like I never want to play against this.

Edit: Also can we come up with a more fun name for this deck :tongue: - Eldrazi & Taxes and Thalia Stompy just sound so derivative lol

Rmosto

08-18-2016, 09:33 AM

Cire

08-18-2016, 09:53 AM

Yea I'm all for finding a better name. For me this deck is a white stompy chalice thalia deck. The main cards are revoker, thalia and chalice. The play style is more towards prison than aggro. Would you agree with this? What name would fit that style?

Hmm, I'm not great at names - but for the prison theme, maybe something like "The Panopticon"? If we replace our plains with snow-covered plains we can call ourselves "The Gulag" :cool:.

Rmosto

08-18-2016, 10:01 AM

Hmm, I'm not great at names - but for the prison theme, maybe something like "The Panopticon"? If we replace our plains with snow-covered plains we can call ourselves "The Gulag" :cool:.

I'm going to have to shoot down the gulag name..my family was in soviet gulags in the 30s so that hits close to home. Any other ideas?

square_two

08-18-2016, 10:11 AM

Are we foregoing the Crucibles now? Feel like that is a separate line of attack that will sometimes win games on its own. Suppose it's just a consistency thing though, and #1 thing with stompy/prison decks is upping the consistency.

Maybe just "Taxes" as a name? Between old thalia, new thalia tapping, lodestone...although Chalice, Prelate, Thought-Knot make me think more of a "Verboten" name. ("Prohibited" auf deutsch)

Cire

08-18-2016, 10:14 AM

I'm going to have to shoot down the gulag name..my family was in soviet gulags in the 30s so that hits close to home. Any other ideas?

Ah, i'm so sorry :(.

iatee

08-18-2016, 10:18 AM

Eldrazi and Taxes or White Eldrazi are both fine names for this deck and one of the two is likely to be adopted. One of those names is already used for the similar Modern variant. No need to come up with some joke name that nobody will actually use.

Dice_Box

08-18-2016, 10:28 AM

The Vintage deck that played to many of the same styles and strengths as this is called White Eldrazi. Personally though, if your looking at a deck that might have in some builds only 7 Eldrazi, well, that's not really a reason to name your deck after them.

I personally like the idea of "Araldite" but I do not know how catchy or effective that would be. PM me when you have a name in mind and I will rename the thread.

RobNC

08-18-2016, 10:51 AM

MasterBlaster

08-18-2016, 11:03 AM

Cire

08-18-2016, 11:06 AM

Thaldrazi?

There are multiple ways this is being approached, so the name could depend on the version. There's White Eldrazi, which is essentially Eldrazi plus 6 or 8 Thalias. Then there's more of a Mox Diamond/Crucible of Worlds version that could lean heavy on land destruction, too, like the vintage powerless version. Then there are the all-in taxes versions, which are more tax heavy white decks with Eldrazi thrown in (plus Lodestone Golem, or the new Sanctum Prelate) without the tricks that D&T has.

I think the rule of thumb that seperates this deck from white eldrazi (as seen in Eldrazi thread) is a maximum of 8 eldrazi (4 Thought Knot and 2-4 Smasher AND/OR 2-4 Displacer).

The decks core seems to be:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2-4 City of Traitors
2-3 Karakas
4-6 Plains
4 Wasteland

0-6 SFM Package (0-4 SFM itself)
3-4 Thalia 1.0
3-4 Thalia 2.0
2-4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2-4 Smasher/Displacer
0-4 Lodestone/Metamorph
2-4 Sanctum Prelate

4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Mox Diamond
0-3 Removal (Warping Wail/Dismember)
0-3 Crucible of Worlds

Unless new cards are revealed I don't think we are going to be arguing about adding other cards to the above formula, and instead will be looking at the breakdown of the numbers instead (I.E. run SFM? Crucible? Etc. . . )

Rmosto

08-18-2016, 11:14 AM

I think the rule of thumb that seperates this deck from white eldrazi (as seen in Eldrazi thread) is a maximum of 8 eldrazi (4 Thought Knot and 2-4 Smasher AND/OR 2-4 Displacer).

The decks core seems to be:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2-4 City of Traitors
2-3 Karakas
4-6 Plains
4 Wasteland

0-5 SFM Package (0-3 SFM itself)
3-4 Thalia 1.0
3-4 Thalia 2.0
2-4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2-4 Smasher/Displacer
0-4 Lodestone/Metamorph
2-4 Sanctum Prelate

4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Mox Diamond
0-3 Removal (Warping Wail/Dismember)
0-3 Crucible of Worlds

Unless new cards are revealed I don't think we are going to be arguing about adding other cards to the above formula, and instead will be looking at the breakdown of the numbers instead (I.E. run SFM? Crucible? Etc. . . )

This seems pretty spot on. My preference is to max out the sfm at 4 and keep the plains count as high as possible. This makes it hard to run more than 2 wastelands however.

Cire

08-18-2016, 11:25 AM

This seems pretty spot on. My preference is to max out the sfm at 4 and keep the plains count as high as possible. This makes it hard to run more than 2 wastelands however.

I made the slight adjustment to the SFM package count.

My preference is to eschew the SFM's for more Prelates/Lodestones etc.

square_two

08-18-2016, 11:41 AM

I personally like the idea of a couple of Crucible of Worlds. Obvious good interaction with Mox Diamond, Wasteland, and City of Traitors. Also this deck itself is susceptible to Wasteland. But I haven't sleeved and played a version of this deck myself.

As for a name, the best I got is Superjail.

Yeah, I can't help but feel that it is going to be the Crucibles that are the most help in fighting the decks not particularly affected by Chalice/Thalia/Prelate. They also work well with Lodestone Golem.

Edit: Also, Umezawa's Jitte is probably worthy at least as a 1-of even without SFM. I mean, if you are going to run 8 powerful first strike creatures, Jitte just looks bonkers. I've been on the receiving end of both Thalias and a Jitte on the opponent's board and good lord that is an awful experience.

ZEROorDIE

08-18-2016, 11:53 AM

I've been working on a Mono white prison deck the past couple weeks. did fairly well in the minimal amount of testing I've been able to do. I'll get a list posted when I get home in a couple hours

Bosque

08-18-2016, 11:58 AM

I like Panopticon as a name. It's a white western world plan for locking people in a prison. Fits.

Cire

08-18-2016, 12:02 PM

Edit: Also, Umezawa's Jitte is probably worthy at least as a 1-of even without SFM. I mean, if you are going to run 8 powerful first strike creatures, Jitte just looks bonkers. I've been on the receiving end of both Thalias and a Jitte on the opponent's board and good lord that is an awful experience.

I think if you're not running SFM, Jitte could take (see my "Core" list for example) some of the "removal" slots?

square_two

08-18-2016, 12:13 PM

I think if you're not running SFM, Jitte could take (see my "Core" list for example) some of the "removal" slots?

Agreed. I think that running Lodestone really means that Warping Wail and Dismember are quite a bit worse.

2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Sanctum Prelate
3 Lodestone Golem
4 Thought-Knot Seer

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Umezawa's Jitte

5 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
2 Karakas

Personally I love the idea of Crucible and so I'll freely admit that bias. Probably doable to cut the Crucibles and add 2 SFM and then cut something else for a Batterskull, making the deck much better against fair creature decks and Eldrazi (although Crucibles significantly help Eldrazi too). New Thalia to 3, perhaps? Guessing our gameplan is almost strictly set to run 4 Prelate.

I do like the idea of the maindeck capable of just destroying combo + blue decks, and siding in particular stuff for any fair/grindy decks where SFM and equipment is better. We will need very little sideboard material for combo (I believe normal Edlrazi is still running Thorns of Amethyst for example, in the side)

This list has same number of mana sources as romariovidal's recent 5-0 White Eldrazi list. He is running same numbers of TKS/Displacer, and has 3 more sources of colorless mana (due to Caves of Koilos) although between 18 and 21 this probably matters little. He also has 11 sources of "turn 1 2 mana" same as this list. Just referring to him since I know he's a good player with experience playing the deck (really enjoyable stream too if he's still doing that, I enjoy tuning in). He opted for 2 SFM and Jitte+Batterskull, and 2 Warping Wail, 1 Dismember (which I believe is the configuration that regular Eldrazi is leaning towards).

MD.Ghost

08-18-2016, 03:03 PM

My first brew would look like this:

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Flickerwisp
1 Containment Priest

2 Crucible
2 Jitte
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

5 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors

It is a mix of White Eldrazi and DnT Elements. My experience with Eldrazi was, that Manadenial can really hurt (which is the reason i dislike Smasher without Eye of Ugin/more City) and that you don't want to run your own Wastelands or must be very carefully with them. The deck above only needs 3 (4 with TKS) Mana and work well, which can also mean only 1-2 Lands with Mox. In this case, Wasteland + Crucible works well better and both will profit if you run Thalia(s) etc. Mox itself is also way better with Crucible.

The build above have a lot of flexslots:
1 Crucible (in this case i would play 1 Main + 1 Side)
1 Jitte (if you include SfM 1 Jitte is enough)
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Flickerwisp (catch all, scary with Displacer)
1 Containment Priest (1 more at Side, bonkers with Displacer)

These slots can also be: SfM Package, Lodestone Golem, Removal or up the numbers of Thalia 2.0, Revoker, Prelate etc. Simply all the things that we want to test.

What i like is that Recruiter (perfect with 2W) allow a little toolbox which answers even uncommon cards from your opponent. Interaction with Displacer/Flickerwisp/Containment Priest/Revoker and even Prelate is very scary. Jitte itself is the best equipment with Thalia(s) and will also help Prelate&Co to improve combat situations. As i mentioned above, i am sure this deck can also work without the Toolbox.

--------
@square_two:

I would cut -1 Prelate from your Build for +1 Revoker, since Revoker can be a Turn 1 Play, works better with Lodestone and Prelate finally needs 1WW which can be a problem and if you mix in Lodestone you have another disruption piece.

---------
@Lodestone Golem: I would (at least at Sideboard) try some Blade Splicer, they will ensure that the fragile Lodestone will be much better at combat (can even kill a Smasher^^) with First Strike. Blade Splicer also offers perfect 2W Mana, two bodies, combos well with Displacer (and finally can be a tutor target for Recruiter)

ZEROorDIE

08-18-2016, 03:45 PM

List ive been tinkering with the past couple weeks. not exactly sure where to go from here, but the deck is pretty cohesive in terms of the game plan and seems to top deck pretty well.

Creatures(14)
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Lodestone Golem

Artifact/Enchantment(21)
4x Suppresion Field
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Cucible of Worlds
3x Mox Diamond

Lands(25)
5x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Karakas
3x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb

Sideboard is in flux atm.

This is much more of a prison deck than a stompy deck, but i guess sort of fits in this thread. I'd rather not make another, and who knows SFM/Equipment might be better, but i wanted to try something distinctly different from D&T.

Suppresion field is insane against so much of the field right now. I've found myself in a scenario where i had S. Field down with a crucible/wastelock and thalia 2.0, needless to say the opponent couldnt do much and the game was effectively over.

I think the ports could go maybe for a dust bowl or ghost quarter and more white sources, flagstones were in there because i started ith the intent of being an armageddon deck, but after a bunch of theorycrafting ended up not running it, so those are flexible as well.

Displacer is great, but less so with S. Field, so that could go in the side for the new sanctum prelate.

Welcome to suggestion here. The deck doesnt win fast but can establish a seriously effective lock within the first couple turns of the game. So far ive run games against D&T, Elves, Food Chain and Lands. Will hopefully be able to get some testing against Miracles, Shardless etc over the next couple weeks, i think it should line up decently against miracles and i was worried about shardless until they spoiled Sanctum Prelate.

Cheers

DisgruntledElk

08-19-2016, 04:15 AM

Alright, I wanted to address a couple points:
1. I am not a fan of Prelate in the deck. While the effect is absolutely sick and I love the card, it is sub-optimal for 2 reasons:
a. We already can run out chalice early
b. WW can be incredibly difficult. For anyone who has not read it, Frank Karsten has a fantastic article on mana sources. Here is the link for reference http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/. It goes on to effectively say that in order for us to cast Prelate on 2 (which I assume is what we want to be doing), we need 20 white sources in the deck. On top of that, it doesn't benefit from any of our sol lands. Anyway, it is a 3-mana, 2-power creature.

2. Lodestone Golem over Reality Smasher. The more I play the deck the more impressed I have been with Lodestone. It perfectly encompasses what the deck wants to do (Tax your opponent just enough to tempo them out while you beat them to death). Often a turn 1 Thalia into turn 2 Lodestone means the game is over. I have seen some comments discussing how Lodestone makes Dismember/Warping Wail worse. I am not sure how much you have actually played the deck, but making your 1-2 mana removal spells cost 2-3 is so irrelevant when you have 4+ mana that you almost never mind. On top of that, splitting the difference between removal (delver, DnT, etc) and countermagic (miracles, storm, etc) is just fantastic. Warping wail has been fantastic and I would be hard-pressed to run fewer than 3 in the 75.

3. Crucible and additional lock pieces. While I love locking my opponent out of the game, the reason to play the deck is that you can actually simultaneously pressure them. The fewer action (read: creatures that can attack/kill your opponent) cards we have in order to accommodate more lock pieces (thorns main, crucible, suppression field), the more often you will flood and just draw air, do nothing, and die. That said, I don't think we can drop below 20 creatures minimum if we want to actually win games.

4. Fewer than 4 Wasteland: Wasteland is fantastic and it can single-handedly win games. On top of that, it is important that we both draw enough lands to cast our spells on curve, but also not flood out. Wasteland does this job almost perfectly, and being able to simply keep land-heavy hands and waste twice will often be enough. Plus, having a land that complements our mana denial is just beautiful.

5. The deck's name: Considering I took the idea for the deck from a list Ari Lax ran a couple months ago through a league, and he was just porting White Eldrazi from Vintage, it would seem appropriate to title it one of the few following things:
White Eldrazi
Thalia Stompy
White Stopmy
Turbotax for the more tax-heavy version

This is all irrelevant though, since we should probably be focusing more on optimizing the lists than coming up with a catchy name :P

Sisyphos

08-19-2016, 04:55 AM

2. Lodestone Golem over Reality Smasher. The more I play the deck the more impressed I have been with Lodestone. It perfectly encompasses what the deck wants to do (Tax your opponent just enough to tempo them out while you beat them to death). Often a turn 1 Thalia into turn 2 Lodestone means the game is over. I have seen some comments discussing how Lodestone makes Dismember/Warping Wail worse. I am not sure how much you have actually played the deck, but making your 1-2 mana removal spells cost 2-3 is so irrelevant when you have 4+ mana that you almost never mind. On top of that, splitting the difference between removal (delver, DnT, etc) and countermagic (miracles, storm, etc) is just fantastic. Warping wail has been fantastic and I would be hard-pressed to run fewer than 3 in the 75.

I absolutely agree with the assessment that Lodestone is the correct choice to maindeck as a four of. It fits the decks plan much better than Reality Smasher. The deck is not a Stompy-build as the old Eldrazi decks were. You are much less aggressive but much more disruptive.

But as I wrote in my small report in the DnT-thread before the deck got its own thread, I think the deck might profit from some number of Smashers in the board (especially in the matchup against Miracles), because haste is such a good ability to have. I have repeatedly gotten into grindy late game situations against opposing planeswalkers that have given me trouble.

The other option I am considering for these situations is sideboarding some copies of Gideon like DnT has started to do. No haste, but just a very resiliant late game thread for grindy matchups. Problem is that we run even fewer white sources than DnT. The numbers are quite close actually, but 3 of ours are Mox Diamonds, which can require you to discard one of your white sources to use, so they don't fully count when doing the math. I am aware of the interaction between tax effects and adding a planeswalker, but as DisgruntledElk put it in regard to the Warping Wail discussion: The deck contains a lot of mana and quite a significant amount of ramp. While you are able to cast Gideon on T2 with the right draw, that is not the plan behind the idea. In the matchups you want a planeswalker to grind, you have the time to get past 4 mana to get through your own tax effects.

Dziga Murnau

08-19-2016, 06:42 AM

I call my version of the deck (evolved from Angel Moat Stompy) Sexy Stompy, as all creatures except TKS are girls. Try to seriously consider Windborn Muse - in legacy she completely locks out opposing creatures, while beating opp's face. Prelate (girl also) gives 4 more ways to protect Muse, so no STP or Bolt for her. With Muse the deck is capable of locking both non-creature and creature plans against us.

keys

08-19-2016, 07:34 AM

I agree with others that Prelate doesn't look so spicy in a Stompy build with only 11 white sources (15 if you count Cavern). Similarly, Reality Smasher is a bit out of reach without Eyes and additional Sol lands. Lodestone, on the other hand, is a good shout. I think the deck builds itself along these lines:

2 Phyrexian Revoker (flex)
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

5 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors

Sideboard:
Containment Priest
Rest in Peace
Thorn of Amethyst
Crucible
Oblivion Ring
Revoker
Etc.

Sibelius

08-19-2016, 07:53 AM

I've been calling it E&T.
Eldrazi and Taxes or Eldrazi and Thalias. Simple, acknowledges the influence of D&T, describes what it does and E comes after D in the alphabet and so this is an evolution of D&T.

Sib

All the decks look nice I must say.
Lodestone and TKS seem like the big beaters to go for as they disrupt and kill rather than Smasher which is just a big dumb guy.

Darkenslight

08-19-2016, 08:49 AM

keys

08-19-2016, 09:06 AM

I thought Turbotax was pretty good :laugh:. It'll probably just end up being called Thalia Stompy though. Cool deck names are a dying art.

Cire

08-19-2016, 09:22 AM

Alright, I wanted to address a couple points:
1. I am not a fan of Prelate in the deck. While the effect is absolutely sick and I love the card, it is sub-optimal for 2 reasons:
a. We already can run out chalice early
b. WW can be incredibly difficult. For anyone who has not read it, Frank Karsten has a fantastic article on mana sources. Here is the link for reference http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/. It goes on to effectively say that in order for us to cast Prelate on 2 (which I assume is what we want to be doing), we need 20 white sources in the deck. On top of that, it doesn't benefit from any of our sol lands. Anyway, it is a 3-mana, 2-power creature.

Prelate is a turn 3 play not a turn 2 play. Even in D&T, it's a turn 3 play. The only decks that can potentially make it a turn 2 play regularly is Green and Taxes and maverick builds. Turn 2 is for Thalia 2.0, Thought-Knot and Golem. Prelate isn't supposed to be chalice 5-8, its just another lock piece. Turn 3 if you don't have chalice out you cast it for 1 to protect your Thalia's and against STP, or at 6 to protect against Terminus. If you don't fear either or already hae STP out you cast it for 2 to punish the lands player or just provide additional lock preasure against other decks (for example 3 against D&T, or 2 for decks that think they can use abrupt decay as an out).

But that article is interesting in figuring out how many sources we need to cast thoughtknot and golem turn 2. For example take thought-knot. According to the article if we want to cast Thought-knot turn 2 consistently (90% according to the article) we would need 20 sources of 2 mana (including mox diamond). Obviously we won't have this. . .

Now this isn't that much of a problem because we usually can play something else. Lets look at it this way:

We aren't playing Plains tap 1 CMC card turn 1. In fact unless we have a mox diamond our first land should always be a 2 mana land.

Turn 1 we only have a couple plays with that.

Turn 1 (without mox diamond in hand):
Sol Land --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte (This should happen 60% of the time since we only have 40% of getting diamond in the hand)

Turn 1 (with Mox diamond in hand):
Land + Mox Diamond (land) --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte OR Thalia 1.0

Turn 1 (with Mox diamond in hand):
Sol Land + Mox Diamond (land) --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte OR Thalia 1.0/2.0

Turn 2, if we're in the 60% scenario of no diamond in starting hand we are either trying to cast another Sol land to go up to our 4 CMC threats or trying to cast Thalia 2.0 or Displacer. If we don't cast Thalia 2.0 or Displacer turn 2, in this scenrio then Prelate is a turn 4 play - not a turn 3 play, since we would have played only 2 sol lands so far. However, if we're in the 40% scenrio of mox diamond in starting hand, then Prelate is a turn 2 play!

I don't know what I'm arguing really except that:

The total of Revoker+Chalice+Jitte should probably be 9 to allow us to have a turn 1 play always
We need more 2 mana sources than we currently run for statistics - so we should probably up the COT count from 2 to 3 or more propably 4; and,
Prelate is to good not to run. Basically it is a turn 2 play around 40% of the time and the other 60% of the time it is either a turn 3 or 4 play depending on whether we played a Thalia 2.0 or displacer turn 2 instead of a Golem or Thought-knot. Prelate is a meta-warping card. It's just ridiculous.

ZEROorDIE

08-19-2016, 10:28 AM

Prelate is a turn 3 play not a turn 2 play. Even in D&T, it's a turn 3 play. The only decks that can potentially make it a turn 2 play regularly is Green and Taxes and maverick builds. Turn 2 is for Thalia 2.0, Thought-Knot and Golem. Prelate isn't supposed to be chalice 5-8, its just another lock piece. Turn 3 if you don't have chalice out you cast it for 1 to protect your Thalia's and against STP, or at 6 to protect against Terminus. If you don't fear either or already hae STP out you cast it for 2 to punish the lands player or just provide additional lock preasure against other decks (for example 3 against D&T, or 2 for decks that think they can use abrupt decay as an out).

But that article is interesting in figuring out how many sources we need to cast thoughtknot and golem turn 2. For example take thought-knot. According to the article if we want to cast Thought-knot turn 2 consistently (90% according to the article) we would need 20 sources of 2 mana (including mox diamond). Obviously we won't have this. . .

Now this isn't that much of a problem because we usually can play something else. Lets look at it this way:

We aren't playing Plains tap 1 CMC card turn 1. In fact unless we have a mox diamond our first land should always be a 2 mana land.

Turn 1 we only have a couple plays with that.

Turn 1 (without mox diamond in hand):
Sol Land --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte (This should happen 60% of the time since we only have 40% of getting diamond in the hand)

Turn 1 (with Mox diamond in hand):
Land + Mox Diamond (land) --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte OR Thalia 1.0

Turn 1 (with Mox diamond in hand):
Sol Land + Mox Diamond (land) --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte OR Thalia 1.0/2.0

Turn 2, if we're in the 60% scenario of no diamond in starting hand we are either trying to cast another Sol land to go up to our 4 CMC threats or trying to cast Thalia 2.0 or Displacer. If we don't cast Thalia 2.0 or Displacer turn 2, in this scenrio then Prelate is a turn 4 play - not a turn 3 play, since we would have played only 2 sol lands so far. However, if we're in the 40% scenrio of mox diamond in starting hand, then Prelate is a turn 2 play!

I don't know what I'm arguing really except that:

The total of Revoker+Chalice+Jitte should probably be 9 to allow us to have a turn 1 play always
We need more 2 mana sources than we currently run for statistics - so we should probably up the COT count from 2 to 3 or more propably 4; and,
Prelate is to good not to run. Basically it is a turn 2 play around 40% of the time and the other 60% of the time it is either a turn 3 or 4 play depending on whether we played a Thalia 2.0 or displacer turn 2 instead of a Golem or Thought-knot. Prelate is a meta-warping card. It's just ridiculous.

let's not forget, if you are playing your lock/tax pieces correctly, you will be time walking your opponent for the first 1-3 turns of the game. prelate may not be the fastest down, but the effect, coupled with the fact that it needs to be attacked far differently from chalice, is huge.

very much depends on how you intend to build the deck. more prison or more toolbox.

also, I typically find revoker to be a sub par turn 1 play against most decks. shutting down death rite, mom or SDT is fine, but you need to already have that information.

Cire

08-19-2016, 10:38 AM

let's not forget, if you are playing your lock/tax pieces correctly, you will be time walking your opponent for the first 1-3 turns of the game. prelate may not be the fastest down, but the effect, coupled with the fact that it needs to be attacked far differently from chalice, is huge.

very much depends on how you intend to build the deck. more prison or more toolbox.

also, I typically find revoker to be a sub par turn 1 play against most decks. shutting down death rite, mom or SDT is fine, but you need to already have that information.

Yes - but I think this deck leans more prison than toolbox. Seems D&T is going toolbox, while this mix of Eldrazi Stompy and D&T is more prison.

And yeah - playing Revoker is more of a turn 1 play game 2-3, but I think my point was that 60% of the time we won't have a turn 1 play (due to our curve and lack of Mox diamond) so between board and MD we should make sure that we have a turn 1 play game 2-3 even if we don't have the mox opening hand.

sadface

08-19-2016, 11:29 AM

Cire

08-19-2016, 11:34 AM

square_two

08-19-2016, 12:23 PM

Perhaps a dumb question, but I'm not afraid to make a fool of myself: other colored stompy decks (notably blue and red variants) play Chrome Mox over Mox Diamond. Why is Mox Diamond better in white stompy? Because the deck is trying to play a slightly longer and grindier game with Crucible shenanigans?

Thought-Knot and Displacer are both colorless and won't help fuel Chrome Mox. It's the biggest reason. Having Crucible is another.

Dragon Stompy in particular is much better with Chrome Moxes thanks to them having both a red lock piece (Blood Moon + Magus to pitch if there are multiples) but also red acceleration (Simian Spirit Guide). Green can probably pitch Sylvan Library easily if there is redundancy. Blue has, well...Misthollow Griffin lol that you can play once you don't need the mana? Heh.

DisgruntledElk

08-19-2016, 01:05 PM

Prelate is a turn 3 play not a turn 2 play.

The total of Revoker+Chalice+Jitte should probably be 9 to allow us to have a turn 1 play always
We need more 2 mana sources than we currently run for statistics - so we should probably up the COT count from 2 to 3 or more propably 4; and,
Prelate is to good not to run. Basically it is a turn 2 play around 40% of the time and the other 60% of the time it is either a turn 3 or 4 play depending on whether we played a Thalia 2.0 or displacer turn 2 instead of a Golem or Thought-knot. Prelate is a meta-warping card. It's just ridiculous.

I think you may have misread my arguments as well as decklists I posted earlier, so I'll address it point by point:

1. In regards to not casting turn 2 TKS: I have been on 4 City for a while. In addition, it is most often a turn 3 play which is still excellent, as we are playing lock pieces turn 1/2.

2. I run 2 revoker, 4 chalice, 1 jitte, plus 2 warping wail/1 dismember as turn 1 plays off of a sol land. This is another reason I've been on 4 cities. For what it's worth, I don't think running 4 mox diamonds is correct. It will too often be a 2-of in your opener, meaning you're already mulled to 6. I think either 3 mox diamond or 2 diamond/1 lotus petal is more likely correct.

3. In agreeance here. 4 is most definitely the correct number.

4. Like I said in my last post, I'm not arguing that Prelate is bad. That's why I will be running it in my DnT. That said, even if I look at your list and count ever cavern as a white source for human (which it isn't, since sometimes you will want an uncounterable TKS or Lodestone), AND I count all four of your Mox Diamonds as white sources (which when you have that many, will sometimes be dead cards), you only have 14 white sources. If you look at the math, that is enough for a reliable WW on turn 7. You need at least 18 white sources in order to cast it on turn 4, as you say you're good with.

Once again, I am not arguing against prelate in a vacuum. I am arguing against Prelate in a deck that is also trying to run 11-12 sol lands, as well as wasteland. Casting it is simply unreliable, and in a deck that is already somewhat high-variance, we should be working to minimize the uncastable cards, not maximize them by running 2-4 WW spells.

Is Prelate very good? Absolutely. Is it meta-warping? No. Since most decks have removal anyway, there are not many things that it can warp is all.

square_two

08-19-2016, 02:48 PM

4. Like I said in my last post, I'm not arguing that Prelate is bad. That's why I will be running it in my DnT. That said, even if I look at your list and count ever cavern as a white source for human (which it isn't, since sometimes you will want an uncounterable TKS or Lodestone), AND I count all four of your Mox Diamonds as white sources (which when you have that many, will sometimes be dead cards), you only have 14 white sources. If you look at the math, that is enough for a reliable WW on turn 7. You need at least 18 white sources in order to cast it on turn 4, as you say you're good with.

I'm playing around with some hypergeometric distributions in excel, and it seems like odds of turn 3 double white (basically top 9 cards) is 68% for 14 sources, 72% for 15, and 76% for 16. My list looks like it has 15 sources. And those %'s are simplified, I'm not going to program what it would be to actually have the gal in hand for those to matter.

For turn 1 double mana, odds are around 78% for 11 sources, 81% for 12. Doesn't take into account actually having the correct lock piece though. Honestly might be worth it to go down on Cities in favor of more white sources. What is more important, a chance for turn 1 Chalice/Thalia, or higher odds of laying down Prelate on turn 3? She provides an awful lot of protection for either our creatures (and thus lock pieces like Thalia/Lodestone) or Chalice (protection from Decay is pretty huge). Maybe 3 is correct since you probably want to see her only once a game and she really suppliments everything else.

As an aside, I checked what it would be with 8 less cards in the deck. Think Git Probe and Street Wraith for instance, sort of a crazed nihilistic prison deck. Odds go up around 10% for double color needs, and 5% for single color. Might be slightly different, it gets screwy if you draw multiple. Pretty uncomfortable amount of lifeloss regardless. And stuff like baubles don't help with T1 lock pieces.

Fatal

08-19-2016, 03:53 PM

I already post my list in D&T/Eldrazi thread anyway it's good to point one really good creature which can be omitted:

Blade Splicer

It's not only 3/3 + 1/1 creature mostly turn 1 or 2. It's 5/3 First strike Golem - which can easily kill goyfs, it's 5/3 Golem which can attack/block Batterskull, with so many first strike creatures (Thalia 1.0 and 2.0 also has first strike it's really good). Adding value from Displacer also should be mention, most time 3/3 Golem from Splicer get's bolt, and 1/1 Splicer stay on table, so any Displacer is must to kill ASAP.
With so many first strike creatures, mirrors, and BG matchups is much easier - same for D&T.

List which I'm currently testing:

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Blade Splicer
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Eldrazi Displacer

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Chalice of the Void

3 Mox Diamond
2 Brushland
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Karakas
4 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest

//SB
4 Warping Wail
4 Reclamation Sage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Constant Mists
2 Winter Orb

Some words about other chooses - fetchlands and basics - I'm running Green splash for 2 cards - Sage and Constant Mists both are best for their aim - Sage vs Moon / Omni / Bridge / Moat and Constant Mists vs Infect / NO Elves. Fetchland and basics also helps a lot for wastelands. Maybe I even reduce more non-sol lands mana base are still on beta stage.

New chalice Guy looks promising but I didn't played him so we will see. It's looks very good vs many decks - like on 1 for U/x/r decks or on 2 for G/b decks.

Cire

08-19-2016, 05:20 PM

.

Is Prelate very good? Absolutely. Is it meta-warping? No. Since most decks have removal anyway, there are not many things that it can warp is all.

I think you're underestimating Prelate. Testing will tell, but from what I see it shuts off removal (or we have other cards for that) by itself or it shuts off key cards in certain other strategies. If you think about this card as a turn 3 play . . . which cards does it compete with for that turn?

Aside from Thought-Knot, what card is better than Prelate turn 3? SFM? I don't think so - SFM is a threat, but Prelate itself can either end the game in continuing to lock someone out (that you've already taxed or chaliced), prevent a combo win, or protect against a terminus. Eldrazi Displacer? Again, it's a threat - but is it a bigger threat than Prelate? Prelate @ 3 against D&T for example basically says "you have vial active? No? You lose." Lodestone Golem? Lodestone due to our mana sources is also a turn 3 play instead of a turn 2. Why continue taxing someone when you can just shut them off a key CMC?

That isn't to say you don't run all the above cards, but I just see Prelate as a better option than most of the above-mentioned cards.

I agree, however, that currently, we are not enough white sources (depends on how you count the mox), but that is an issue of working on the mana base over replacing Prelate, which to me is just so much better than other options.

So lets get to work on the mana base.

What we want is to have:

2 turn 1
2W turn 2
3C allowing for Eldrazi mana turn 2
4 not allowing Eldrazi mana turn 3
1WW turn 3

Under the Frank Karsten article for 90% reliability we need the following for the above results

14 Non Eldrazi Sol lands and/or Mox
13 Non Eldrazi Sol lands and/or Mox and 13 White Sources and/or Mox
20 Sol lands (any) and/or Mox
11 Non Eldrazi Sol lands and/or Mox
19 White Sources and/or Mox
--------------------------------------
The total being:

4 Mox Diamond
15 White Sources
10 Non Eldrazi Sol Lands
6 Eldrazi Sol Lands

That is just not going to happen! We're just not going to get 90% consistency for anything! As such we need to pick a number of some other consistency that we feel comfortable with.

First lets see what is possible - we are not going to run Eye of Ugin, so at the very best our number will be 4 Eldrazi Sol lands - and only 8 other sol lands exist. So at best we can run:

4 Mox Diamond
15 White Sources
8 Non Eldrazi Sol Lands
4 Eldrazi Sol Lands

That leaves us with the following probabilities (using HYPGEOM.DIST in excel (Edit: Someone really should check my math, since I barely know what i'm doing - I find the fact that the numbers drop by 20-30% for getting rid of 4 cards indicative that I did something wrong or don't get Statisitcs. .)

2 turn 1 --> % 61
2W turn 2 --> % 65
3C allowing for Eldrazi mana turn 2 --> % 67
4 not allowing Eldrazi mana turn 3 --> % 67

So it seems that 60-70% is our maximum range for having the mana for doing stuff we want by the time we would want to do it. So we should feel comfortable with something in that range for 1WW by turn 3. How many white source can we go down to for that consistency?

Around 11 or 12, not including those original moxes.

TL/DR - If we count Mox Diamond as a full mana source, we already run around the right number of white sources to be able to cast Prelate by turn 3, at a rate of consistency that we are already used to in regards to casting any of our other cards by the turns we would usually want to cast them.

square_two

08-20-2016, 01:07 AM

Tonight I learned that romariovidal calls his list Death and Staxes. Love it.

GoblinSettler

08-20-2016, 01:23 AM

Tonight I learned that romariovidal calls his list Death and Staxes. Love it.

Death and Staxes sounds quite nice.

When playing white, taxing decks with Lodestone, my personal preference lies with Lodestone Creamery.

(It is ice cream time!)

DisgruntledElk

08-20-2016, 02:21 AM

Tonight I learned that romariovidal calls his list Death and Staxes. Love it.

Haha considering it's 74/75 my list, I claim naming rights :P

tsabo_tavoc

08-20-2016, 11:32 AM

Prelate @ 3 against D&T for example basically says "you have vial active? No? You lose."

I think you missed the noncreature clause in Prelate. The card is far from oppresive.

Philipp2293

08-21-2016, 01:54 PM

Cire

08-21-2016, 05:09 PM

I think you missed the noncreature clause in Prelate. The card is far from oppresive.

My apologies. I did. Still think it is an amazing card in this deck.

DisgruntledElk

08-22-2016, 01:58 AM

I played Disgruntled Elk's build from a few pages back to a top 4 finish at a 22 player tournament today, good for a Scrubland.

My MUs were Bant Thopter (2-1), Shardless Bug (2-1), UR Delver (2-0), ID (would have been ANT), ID (would have been Elves), Top 8 Bant Thopter again (2-1) und T4 Death and Taxes (1-2).

Things to take away:

-) Thalia is really really scary, against Bant Thopters alone it won me 3 of my 4 games
-) Moat is extremely annoying, my 2 losses against the Thopters deck were to that card.
-) As for my meta, it would have been correct to run Reality Smasher.
-) For beeing a Stompy deck, the deck really operated well and treated me nice.
-) No sure if the SFM package is really needed. It felt somehow.....not right.

Hey Philipp, glad you liked the deck. I'd like to comment on the takeaways.

-Thalia, HC is indeed a beating. That's why the mana has been configured to maximize your chance of turn 1/2 THC, while not running 4 diamonds (because that's a lot of dead cards)
-Moat is no doubt incredibly obnoxious. That is the main reason I run 2 disenchant in the board. It is certainly not perfect, but I'll usually board them in against any white control deck that has either fliers or a lack of necessity for the combat step. Disenchant also hits random problem permanents like ensnaring bridge or other equipment.
-Based on what you faced, Smasher certainly seems stronger. I would still run Lodestone at any big tournament or any blind meta. That said, smasher seems stronger for the decks you faced.
-I really do prefer this build of the deck, as it does minimize the downside of a stompy deck while retaining a lot of the upside like a fast clock/quick disruption.
-The SFM package is not ideal for your meta either, though batterskull is great vs Shardless and DnT. I have certainly considered moving the 4 slots to the board and tweaking the main around it, but against anything very fair, a quick Jitte is quite the beating. I will certainly acknowledge that it is the clunkiest part of the deck.

square_two

08-22-2016, 01:07 PM

If we wanted a manland, I guess Mishra's Factory is the best? Just saw Dread Statuary and the idea of running it with Blade Splicer made me chuckle. I know it's a reprint in Conspiracy, but we could totally be golem tribal! Honestly though if we are running the splicer, that is the potential for a lot of first strike damage thanks to both Thalia's.

Philipp2293

08-22-2016, 02:40 PM

The more I think about it the more I like Blade Splicer. Blinking it is huge value, and it presents more pressure than SFM. I just don't wanna overload our 3 drop slot.

Fatal

08-22-2016, 06:37 PM

Test shows that Blade Slicer is most time 2 for 1 with really fast pressure on opponent, I test it vs most decks, and every time token and a 1/1 Support get dedicated removal which is huge for 3 mana. It shine vs D&T, BUG, Tempo and Miracles !

ChemicalBurns

08-23-2016, 09:30 AM

After seeing all those 5-0s recently on MtGO I HAD to try this. D&T plus Stompy is my favourite two things to be doing in Legacy. Anyway, here's my list so far:

Creatures: (24)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Sanctum Prelate

Non-Creature Spells: (11)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lotus Petal
2 Dismember
2 Warping Wail

Lands: (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: (15)
3 Rest in Peace
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Warping Wail

I have to so say... I'm *loving* this deck. Really feels like it's tapping best into the insane potentials of all the recent printings.

A few things in this list that vary from the norm:
- Lotus Petals. I like these a little more than Diamonds. When I played Eldrazi I found Diamonds to be very clunky. I like these a little more because they make more hands with T1 Thalia, that utterly end so many decks, possible (don't need Diamond + 2 Lands, only 1 Land + Petal). Though feel free to argue against this, since I know most have had positive experiences with Diamond.
- 4 Revoker. I love Revoker, and without SFM the deck needs to be able to fill the two drop slot nicely. Casting him t1 off a sol land on the draw against DRS is a delight.
- Lodestone > Smasher. I've liked Lodestone surprisingly a lot so far, (I hated him in Eldrazi, but that was of course because he was run along with Smasher) but as people have mentioned, this choice can vary on meta - though when is Smasher more preferable?
- 2 Prelate. Prelate has felt *super* clunky to cast so far, though when slammed she generally locked up the game. Maybe tinkering the manabase (some painlands, perhaps?) might make her more feasible.
- 3 Displacer. I'm interested in people's thoughts on Displacer. Although my experiences with the card have been positive so far it has very little synergies within my list other than with TKS. People's talks of Blade Splicer have actually sounded pretty sweet, though the general utility of Displacer may just outweigh the coolness and synergy Splicer has with Golem.
- 2 Canonist over Thorns. I've seen a lot of lists featuring Thorns - is this because they get under Therapy on the play? I do like my hate pieces to bash though.
- 3 Swords to Plowshares. I kind of hate sideboarding that has poor synergy with the main deck, though I imagine this is very important in other Stompy matchups and against SFM decks like D&T. Though I'd love to simply include some more Wails, though.

Anyway, I thought Eldrazi was the best Stompy deck I'd ever played... But this is really starting to say otherwise. It has such powerful Eldrazi-like draws, while also being very strong with its average D&T-ish draws. I'm looking forward to seeing where this deck progresses.

Sean

klaus

08-23-2016, 11:02 AM

How about a light :r: splash?

4 Thalia 1.0
3 Thalia 2.0
3 Revoker
3 Recruiter
3 Magus
1 Stonecloaker
1 Prelate
1 meta slot dude
3 Mom
4 SFM
(-26-)

3 EQ
4 STP
4 Vial
2 SSG
(-13-)

4 ancient tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 wasteland
6 fetch
2 plains
2 plateau
1 mountain
(-21-)

Cire

08-23-2016, 11:08 AM

That looks like D&T not whatever we're calling this deck (Thalia Stompy, Eldrazi & Taxes, Death & Staxes, etc).

Basically: Vial --> D&T. More than 8 Eldrazi --> Eldrazi Stompy.

@ChemicalBurns: I like that list - also glad you agree that Prelate is brutal when it lands. Do you have any ideas on how to allow our manabase to support more copies? It seems the choice is whether to remove wastelands or removal in favor of more white sources.

MD.Ghost

08-23-2016, 12:01 PM

Until Prelate is tested (and i don't know if you will combine Prelate and Lodestone and facing a 5/6 Gofy Wall sounds so good, what i mean, overloading to spellhate can be wrong if you face BGx decks - see Eldrazi Hype last GPs) i will work on a version without the new cards. Recruiter + Displacer also sounds super nice, but you will tend to cut other Playsets and reduce your tempo, i am not sure, if this decks aims to an superior late game plan, afterall it is Aggro Stompy which means, fast lockpieces and beatdown.

// Deck: White Stompy.dec (60)

// Lands
5 Plains
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
2 Karakas

// Creatures
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Blade Splicer

// Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
1 Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
2 Path to Exile / Swords
2 Rest in Peace
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Disenchant
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 War Priest of Thune
2 open slots

I like the current list, it offers decent hate/lockpieces and can also win against creature heavy decks or (for Eldrazi) problematic matchups like BGx.

I reduced Thalia(s), Revoker and Lodestone to 3 copies, because i feel that is overall the right number for mulligans, topdecks etc. since most cards complete each other or work similiar in terms of disruption. Compared to DnT and Eldrazi Builds this decks has more than enough "Hate" for spells, lands and even creatures (including sideboard).

For me the main is currently set in stone, unless we tested enough Recruiter and Prelate and finally find room/the right config. Sideboard is still flexible, so you can adjust it for any meta. I tinker around with a "troll splash" for the last to open slots and searched for "Humans" (to add up Cavern Mana since Cavern is either Eldrazi or Human with the build above):

Orzhov Pontiff - really like the ability since the deck has no "sweeper" and Pontiff + Displacer is really bonkers vs DnT etc, since the first EtB Trigger from Pontiff should also kill any enemy Revoker (naming Displacer). So only issue is the mana (8 sources for Black: Mox/Cavern: Human)

Keldon Marauders - as i mentioned above: Troll Cards; Marauders + Displacer can also be nasty (since it has "enter"+"leave" Trigger) and will kill even under Moat or Bridge, "Bolt" for each Displacer activation should be fast enough if you count multiple "shots" each turn.

Thopter Engineer - hey klaus mentioned a little red splash, so here we go. Engineer is like Blade Splicer a card made for Displacer, you gain hasty Flyers (and Golems!) that will also work under Moat (and Bridge).

Rishadan Cutpurse - sadly only a 1/1 so definitively a pure troll card, but since the deck aims to lock out the opponent (and forces him to tap more mana than common) this little dude can wreck all enemy permanents (which should be low enough if all works fine)

I will try Orzhov Pontiff (maybe 1 or 2, depends on Path/Swords number) because i feel it is a nice surprise, works as a sweeper (uncounterable with Cavern) which is more or less one missing piece for the deck - and can also push your own (First Strike!) Dudes if the enemy field is empty. Switching Plains for Caves of Koilos can also be an adjustment if needed.

ChemicalBurns

08-23-2016, 08:10 PM

@ Cire, I'd imagine we trim some number of Wastelands and maybe some Temples / a City (I know Disgruntled_Elk has had three Temples in his lists) to accommodate some painlands. Is it worth though? We certainly remove some explosiveness of the deck.

Also, I forgot how great Winter Orb likely is in the sideboard (or even main) of this deck (esp. w/ THC). Seems pretty brutal as a two-of in the 75 somewhere.

I'm really looking to squeeze some Splicers into this list. I might end up just cutting Prelate if I can't butcher the mana base enough for Splicer. Prelate is great, but casting her is not.

Dice_Box

08-26-2016, 11:35 PM

Is Prelate really going to fit in this deck? I mean, it's a double White card in a deck built on a Stompy mana base. I understand the pull of the disruption but it's hard to power out.

GoblinSettler

08-27-2016, 05:39 PM

A few things in this list that vary from the norm:
- Lotus Petals. I like these a little more than Diamonds. When I played Eldrazi I found Diamonds to be very clunky. I like these a little more because they make more hands with T1 Thalia, that utterly end so many decks, possible (don't need Diamond + 2 Lands, only 1 Land + Petal). Though feel free to argue against this, since I know most have had positive experiences with Diamond.

Sean

I have also found Mox Diamonds to be very clunky here and prefer the Lotus Petals instead. Still the mana feels shockingly bad for a deck that is nearly half mana sources.

Also want to try something like the following:
25 lands
3 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of Worlds

Fatal

08-27-2016, 06:21 PM

ChemicalBurns

08-28-2016, 07:46 AM

Alright, so a good friend of mine split the finals of a small tourney here in Melbourne, Australia with a list I flicked over to him:

Creatures: (25)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Blade Splicer
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Thought-Knot Seer

Non-Creature Spells: (10)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Dismember
1 Warping Wail

Lands: (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Karakas
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
5 Plains

Sideboard: (15)
3 Rest in Peace
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Winter Orb
1 Warping Wail

Most of the list was untested, so it was a trial by fire. And it certainly speaks to the deck's strengths in that it got to the finals! I'll post up the report he sent to me too, but first, some choices:
- No Prelate. It's seriously too damn hard to cast. Butchering the mana base (and finding Prelates in time) proved to be too difficult, so Blade Splicer it was.
- Diamond > Petal. I still think either choice are equally feasible, though my friend had access to Diamonds, so let's go with that.
- Mindbreak Trap > Canonist. I like this a lot, as it gives us a saving grace against Turn Zero combo, an extra angle vs. Storm (with four Revoker we already have a critical mass of hate to play on t1, so Thorn is less needed) along with Wail.
- Winter Orb. Miracles is a thing, this is great with Thalia and etc. Turned out to not be boarded in much. Might change this up.

Report from my friend! Note that I don't necessarily agree on his boarding at all points, but he's just remembering off the top of his head anyway, so it might be a bit different.

Round 1 (Shardless BUG)
G1: Played a TKS he dropped a Goyf. I Dismember his Goyf and proceed to beat down and he never finds an answer.

+2 RiP
+3 Swords to Plowshares
-3 THC
-2 Displacer

G2: Deathrite Shaman turn 1 and I follow with a Chalice on 1. He follows up with a Strix and then a second. I play TKS and Thalia but can't deal with his DRS. Eventually find a RiP but he Brainstorms and eats Brainstorms in response taking me to lethal from the Strix.
G3: T1 land go. He plays DRS. I follow with a Thalia. He plays Goyf. I play RiP. And he chumps Thalia with Goyf. I play TKS and take his Brainstorm leaving him with Visions and a Goyf. He suspends Visions and passes. Chalice on 0 and Dismember his DRS swing in for a bunch and he concedes.

Round 2 (Goblins)
G1: I play a Revoker on his Vial and 2 TKS lock it up.

+1 WW
+3 Swords to Plowshares
-4 Chalice of the Void

G2: He Vials in a Sharpshooter against my hand of double Thalia and double Splicer. I never find removal and die quickly.
G3: He keeps a 2 lander and drops a Vial on t1. Proceeds to use all 3 of his Mogg War Marshasl and makes a million tokens. I play double Splicer but he has double Pyrokinesis to answer them.

Round 3 (Sneak & Show)
G1: Lose the dice roll. He Probes and plays a land. I play Chalice on 1 which he Forces. Brainstorm fetch. I play new Thalia into TKS and take his Griselbrand. He shortly concedes after.

+2 Containment Priest
+1 WW
+1 Disenchant
-2 Blade Splicer
-2 Dismember

G2: He leads with land Ponder. I Cavern name Human and Mox Diamond discarding a Cavern before passing it back. He plays 2 Lotus Petals and a cantrip then passes. I EoT Containment Priest using Cavern. He forces pitching Force... CP resolves and I untap play City of Traitors and drop a Revoker naming Lotus Petal and a Thalia. Beats, then a Lodestone Golem for lethal the next turn

Round 4 (UG 12Post)
G1: My opponent wins the dice roll and keeps a hand with a T3 TKS. I play a T2 TKS and take his. He plays land go. I play a T3 TKS and see he has 4 blue cards with no blue source. Take his Show and Tell. Game ends shortly after that.

+2 Winter Orb
+3 Swords to Plowshares
-1 WW
-2 Blade Splicer
-2 Dismember

G2: Opponent leads with fetch Brainstorm. I play T1 Winter Orb. Opponent makes land drop. I play a Revoker on Candelabra. He makes another land drop and plays a Candelabra. I play a 3rd land and a TKS. He top decks Tabernacle. I use City of Traitors to pay for my 2 creatures. He top decks TKS and plays it. Takes a 4 drop. I offer to trade TKS he takes it. We both draw. He doesn't find an out to the Revoker and dies to beats.

Round 5 (ANT)
ID to lock for Top 4

Top 4 (ANT)
G1: He Duresses and misses. I play a Revoker naming LED with Thalia for next turn. He Brainstorms into double Petal, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Ad Nauseum. Ad Nauseums to 4. Land, Ponder, LED, LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Tendrils for lethal.

+2 Mindbreak Trap
+2 RiP
-2 Splicers
-2 Dismember

G2: T1 Chalice on 0, Revoker on led. T2 Thalia, T3 Lodestone. Easy win.
G3: He Probes me and sees I have a Mindbreak Trap. Passes turn with no land drop. I play T1 Chalice on 0 and Revoker on LED. He passes. T2 Thalia. T3 Chalice on 1. T4 Chalice on 2. GG.

Finals (Goblins)
Split.

Points I can take away from our conversations:
- Splicer was great in fair matchups, making some first strike Golem action. Also, his Splicers were in Japanese so the Goblins player forgot about first strike and tripled blocked some Goblins into death. Noice.
- Current mana base cannot achieve double white easily, so my friend agreed.
- Trap was great!
- The weenie creature MUs seem hard. A SFM package in the SB might be feasible to find some Jittes. Or maybe Holy Light, since we're cutting Thalia vs. Elves etc anyway?
- Displacer was lacklustre to him, which I can understand. Interesting. Might shave some numbers.

Overall, my friend was very, very impressed with the deck and bought up the rest of the pieces he didn't have afterwards >_< So yeah, expect us to be tinkering with this a bit longer!

iostream

08-28-2016, 05:02 PM

Went 3-1-1 at a Legacy Champs trial in Indianapolis. I beat BUG Delver, Grixis Delver, and Colorless Eldrazi. I lost to Sneak/Show. I intentionally drew the last round to split the prize. I know it's not a lot of of data, but at least from my limited experience, the deck felt great.

My wins were relatively straightforward and easy. My Delver opponents were seriously hampered by the taxes and just couldn't keep up. The white cards, especially Thalia, GoT, were really good here and a definite improvement over Colorless. My colorless Eldrazi opponent flooded out one game and got Wasted out of the game the next, so I don't think I can really say too much about that matchup just from my match. My loss to Sneak/Show can probably be chalked up to variance. He had exactly Show and Tell into Omniscience + Emrakul + Griselbrand in game 1 when I had Thalia, HC + Revoker on Sneak Attack + Displacer + Karakas - this is the exact combination he needed to play through that. Then I got turn 1'd when I was on the draw in game 3, which happens; he was cold to Karakas, but I didn't have it. I felt that he had to have great draws in order to play through all the disruption, and he did.

The deck is definitely not a finished product by any means, but I really liked how it played.

Comments about my list:

1) I played Reality Smasher over Lodestone Golem, and it was amazing, as usual. I only played 3 for want of space and because I wasn't running Eye of Ugin, and I think that's the right number. Here are the reasons that I think Smasher over Golem is correct:

- You don't need a million sphere effects to soft-lock the game in your favor. The point of Stompy is to have disruption into beats, not lock the game down completely. At Golem/Smasher's point in the curve, I should already have disruption and will therefore want beats, and nothing beats better than Reality Smasher right now.

- Thalia, Heretic Cathar buys you tempo. Playing haste creatures is a fantastic way to take advantage of that. So I think Smasher just synergizes better with New Thalia.

- Playing more Eldrazi makes Eldrazi Temple better. Playing fewer creature types makes Cavern of Souls better. I don't want to have to set Cavern on Golem ever; nor do I want to have to expose my Golem or Smasher to countermagic because I didn't draw enough Caverns to make it uncounterable.

- Lodestone Golem dies to Lightning Bolt, which is horrible. Also, Golem does not generate any value when it dies to a spot removal spell.

2) Sanctum Prelate was there just to test and I didn't draw it except against Colorless Eldrazi, where it was obviously worthless. But it was castable with my manabase.

3) Didn't want to overload on Revokers because they don't do much in many matchups.

Decklist:

Lands (26)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Caves of Koilos
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
4 Plains
4 Wasteland

Creatures (21)

3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cather
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher

Spells (13)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dismember
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Armageddon
2 Basilisk Collar
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Rest in Peace

Whit3boy316

08-29-2016, 12:24 AM

Has anyoje tried this against infect and normal dnt?

Fatal

08-29-2016, 06:54 AM

merfolkotpt

08-29-2016, 08:35 AM

Doesn't ghostly prison help out a lot when we are wastelanding people and playing thalia 1.0 alongside lodestone. I think infect might have some problems with that. Especially if we also play amount of thorn or trini.

EDIT:
Speaking of which, why is no one playing thorn in this format with white eldrazi, seems way better than revoker. Here is where I think I would start:

28 Mana Sources
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Eldrazi Temple
1 Karakas
2 Rishadan Port
7 Plains
4 Wasteland
22 CREATURES
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
10 OTHER SPELLS
1 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Umezawa's Jitte

iostream

08-29-2016, 11:29 AM

I played against Infect with my build (4 Golems, 4 Smashers, little SFM package, no removal MD), and with this configuration matchup before sb is almost unwinable.The simpler solution than running weird sideboard cards seems to be to just play some removal. With 2 Dismember, 2 Wail, 2 Jitte maindeck, I think the Infect matchup is actually a little better than it was with colorless Eldrazi. Dismember is specifically great against Infect and probably necessary even if your meta has no Infect at all because nearly all the creatures in this deck lose to Goyf in combat.

Speaking of which, why is no one playing thorn in this format with white eldrazi, seems way better than revoker.
For the same reason people don't usually play maindeck Thorns in colorless Eldrazi. This isn't Vintage. There are too many matchups where Thorn doesn't do anything or is low impact.

I think it bears repeating - this is not a prison deck! The balance between threats and disruption is something that has to be thought about carefully. You cannot just assume it's always correct to jam as many spheres as you can into the deck.

Fatal

08-29-2016, 01:39 PM

Problem with removal MD:
- it's dead vs many matchups like Combo and Miracles (it's more then 50% of meta).
- It's not enough vs decks based on creatures like Infect and Elves
- It's not enough vs D&T, specially vs nowadays build with new Recruiter

So I'm looking for some better solution then single thread removal vs Infect and Elves. Constant Mist doesn't resolve Elves problem, most time I'm swarmed with weenie.

So Looking for dedicated cards vs Infect, Elves and D&T.

Single removal doesn't work enough - Jitte works not bad but it's just slow, and can be decay'ed (Elves) or needled with Revoker, best would be pernament base hate which has impact on battlefield when it comes, can be also spell but with CMC not more then 2.

I tired dedicated hate vs specify strategies - Infect / Elves / D&T but always miss some part due to space on sb - still need have answers vs graveyard decks, and enchantments/artifacts.

I found that Reclamation Sage is very good vs D&T - blowing vial/Equip is a key factor vs them, but it's sometimes hard when they needle Mox. I'm not running too many colored green source.

I'm running 3 x SFM which can easily find jitte, but it's still quite slow vs Infect. I need turn 2-3 answer jitte will connect turn 4 mostly (unless I draw Mox, but they also have permission).

Agreed on Thorn's they aren't enough good for MD material, sure they can shine in combo/miracle matchup but vs tempo/elves/D&T they not even worth casting.

I wish Provoke would be more popular ability it would resolve a lot of problems.

If anyone test old chool Drop of Honey / Porphyry Nodes vs Elves/D&T/Infect ? Probably not great vs Infect but could be supplemented by Spellskite which would also improve burn matchup.

MD.Ghost

08-29-2016, 02:05 PM

Yesterday I conquered the 2nd Place from our local (26 players) tournament. Missed a perfect run at my last matchup.

Round 1 vs Dredge 2:0
Round 2 vs Reanimator 2:1
Round 3 vs Shardless BUG 2:1
Round 4 vs Maverick 2:1
Round 5 vs UG Delver 1:2

Decklist (see above) i only changed my side :
-1 Wastes for a 3rd Swords
-1 War Priest for 1 Mangara

Deck overall worked great, it contains more Disruption than Eldrazi (if you include Lodestone ) and is also better prepared vs BGx Decks (looking at Shardless etc). I really enjoyed that this build (without Prelate) can use Wastelands, way more aggressive than Eldrazi.
As I mentioned at my last Post, i also tested 2 Orzhov Pontiff, Sadly I don't saw him my last game as a I faced clique, noble and later 2 additional Delver.

Quick Note Blade Splicer performed well enough, all opponents aimed for him as fast as possible so he can't be so bad.

keys

08-29-2016, 03:51 PM

Round 5 vs UG Delver 1:2

Do you mean UG Delver or RUG Delver?

DisgruntledElk

08-30-2016, 12:54 AM

I played against Infect with my build (4 Golems, 4 Smashers, little SFM package, no removal MD), and with this configuration matchup before sb is almost unwinable (Thalia's helps but you can't generate enough tempo to win before they just invigorate + berserk).

So you need dedicated SB which will help vs other bad matchups:

Colorless options:
- Spellskite - one of the best vs Infect - easy to cast, works good also vs Burn (read cost 2 gain min. 4 life).

- not tested but looks promising vs some weenie - Juntu Stakes - can be played under chalice, connecting good with Thalia HC (hard lock), works nice vs elves - but here probably Cursed Totem would be better.

colored options:

To bad that Worship doesn't work vs Infect, could be best to improve those matchups - sure little slow but very hard to destroy.

I have played upwards of 25 matches vs infect (yeah, it isn't a huge sample size, but hey, still a sample) on MODO, and I am at LEAST 20-5 against them. For those who haven't seen my list, the highlights are:
4 Golems
2 SFM + Batterskull and Jitte
3 Displacer
4 THC
3 Thalia, GoT
2 Warping Wail and 1 in the SB
1 Dismember MD
3 STP in the board
4 Wasteland

I feel there a few key aspects to this matchup:
1. You need enough removal to not die on turn 1 on the draw. Having access to 3 MD removal spells in addition to 4 more in the board is pretty huge.
2. SFM is a pretty big beating, as Jitte is a house in the matchup
3. Wasteland + Thalia(s) are often enough to beat them
4. Chalice is a huge beating
5. Displacer is also quite disgusting.

The bottom line is that if you are losing to infect, your deck may be configured less than optimally for the matchup, though you may consider that you may be playing the matchup incorrectly as well.

Assess your role: You are NOT the beatdown. You are the CONTROL. The only reason to play into a daze is a turn 1 Chalice because it will just crush them. Even though they have K Grip post board, it means that your Jitte is safe. Moreover, by playing it slower and forcing them to slow down through disruption, you maximize your later draws like Displacer.

I'm not sure why everyone seems to be having so many issues with the matchup, as I have been crushing it, but those are just my 2 cents.

Fatal

08-30-2016, 05:15 AM

My biggest problem is Inkmoth which fly over, can't be exiled with Wail when pumped (biggest problem is Invigorate - specially in multiple - dodge Chalice). Only wasteland helps here, but not always drawn - they have Crop rotation (if not chaliced) to fetch them eot.

Question - you side swords to plowshares along with Chalice on 1 ? Is it works good ? I see scenerio where you assamble chalice, then die to Flying Infected Land with Swords in hand..
Did any one tested Valarous Stance or Blessed Alliance ? Specially Alliance looks good vs Burn matchup.

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mox Diamond
2 Blade Splicer
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
6 Plains
1 Batterskull
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Wastes
//SB
2 Warping Wail
2 Rest in Peace
2 Winter Orb
1 Manriki-Gusari
3 Disenchant
2 Spellskite
3 Blessed Alliance

SB built and working quite well.

Changed little lands - added wastelands to 4 and Waste vs paths.

Whit3boy316

08-30-2016, 07:57 PM

Are there any vidoes of this deck online?

MD.Ghost

08-31-2016, 06:09 AM

I like that list, I would only fix mox diamond count - 4 is too much and second thing Reality Smasher is guy you really want, backing to Playset Mox it works well with more then 25 lands, try 3

4 Mox ifeels right, if you play less Eldrazi and more White Cards, you simply need the "W" Mana as early as possible, since Thalia 1.0 Turn 1 is also a very good move vs a lot of decks. Yes Mox can be a dead Draw and some hands aren't keepable, but the same is true for other cards. Playing Crucible helps also to support Mox. If you go down to 3 Mox i would add another W Land (which means 26 lands)

Speaking of which, why is no one playing thorn in this format with white eldrazi, seems way better than revoker.

Revoker isn't that bad, it helps vs a lot of matchups and you can also name Stuff like Deathrite/Noble etc. as a support for the "Tax" Idea along with Thalia(s), Wastelands, Golem. You don't need Thorn if the build can support Thalia 1.0, since it can also beat, is protectable with Karakas etc.

Problem with removal MD:
- it's dead vs many matchups like Combo and Miracles (it's more then 50% of meta).
- It's not enough vs decks based on creatures like Infect and Elves
- It's not enough vs D&T, specially vs nowadays build with new Recruiter

That's why i like Warping Wail Maindeck - Spell is very flexible and never dead (you can even flash in blocker/attacker/equip carrier). We should also note, that Displacer is another option for "removal".

---------

Some ideas about the two Directions we all Discuss.

Reality Smasher vs Lodestone Golem

For me the right number for both is 3 (!) You don't want draw many of them and most of the time you can't play them fast enough (no Eye of Ugin, most builds only have 2 City etc.) and with "Taxes" (Thalia(s) + Wasteland) the plan is different from Colorless Eldrazi. Golem and Smasher both acts as a "Finisher" after you deploy Thalia/Chalice/Wasteland etc.

Reality Smasher
+Haste is a great ability to overrun your opponent as fast as possible (bonuspoints vs Miracle after Terminus)
+great Body, most of the time only outclassed from Gofy or Knights (both can be "countered" with Rest in Peace at Side)
+Trample, great vs chumpblockers and with Equipment like Jitte
+Eldrazi, so works with Temple and Cavern (common to name Human/Eldrazi)
+cardadvantage vs target removal
-Smasher needs 5 Mana and this can be troublesome, since this build contains less "Sollands" (like Eye), you will also use your own Wastelands more often, since they synergies well with Thalia (and Golem) "Taxes". Opponent will also try to attack your Manabase (Wasteland/Port/Moon) since this tactic works well vs common Eldrazi builds.
-you need "colorless" Mana so Moon is slightly more problematic

Lodestone Golem
+Taxing works well with Thalia(s), Wasteland, Chalice etc. and can also prevent the play of Blockers since it taxes Creatures too
+you can stack it with Thalia 1.0 and Thorn (if you have some at Side)
+only 4 Mana so you can deploy it faster
-taxes our own stuff too (besides Artifacts)
-only 3 toughness, so "dies to bold" and some common legacy creaturs
-Artifact so it will also die too Removal like Ancient Grudge etc. (if your opponent needs to get rid of Chalice and will bring SB common cards)

I feel that both creatures have advantages and disadvantages. Since Golem isn't the king vs Creature based decks, his perfect support is Blade Splicer, since the deck also contains Eldrazi Displacer (and Cavern naming "Human" for Thalia(s)). Blade Splicer is a great card, but i think it only holds its spot together with Lodestone Golem.

If you play Smasher, you are weaker vs Spell based decks but don't need additional support like Blade Splicer. Since you lack support vs "Spells" you can close the gap with Sanctum Prelate. The cleric is weak vs Creature decks (like DnT/Eldrazi) but for this task you have Smasher. The problem with Prelate is, that it will need some slightly adjustments to the manabase.

So at my build above i see

Package 1:
3 Lodestone Golem
2 Blade Splicer

Package 2:
3 Reality Smasher
2 Sanctum Prelate

Talking about Manabase, my build above works solid with Package 1. For Prelate (and 5cc Smasher) i would adjust: -1 Wasteland +1 Caves of Koilos (maybe another one if you cut 1 Plains) for 1-2 more "W" Lands. If we cut down Wastelands (and also aim for cc5 cards like Smasher) Crucible Main isn't so hot anymore. Following that line: -1 Crucible +1 Dismember. So it looks like: 3 Smasher, 2 Prelate, 2 Caves, 1 Dismember (-3 Golem, -2 Splicer, -1 Crucible, -1 Plains, -1 Wastelands) Note that Caves will also improve my Orzhov Pontiff Tech at Side.

Conclusion: I don't think that we can successfully combine Lodestone Golem and Reality Smasher at Main. Both don't work well together and will stress the manabase too much (you aim for a lower cc curve with this deck). Golem and Smasher have advantages and disadvantages but you can adjust the weekness with other creatures.

Build:

// Lands
29 Mana sources (Mix 25-26 Lands with 3-4 Mox Diamond)

// My "Core" Creatures
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

// My "Flex" Creatures
3 Phyrexian Revoker/Stoneforge
3 Lodestone Golem/Reality Smasher
2 Blade Splicer/Sanctum Prelate

// Stuff
4 Chalice of the Void
4-5 Slots for Removal/Support: Umezawa's Jitte, Warping Wail, Dismember, Crucible of Worlds

Sample Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
3 Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Disenchant
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mangara of Corondor

Note that this deck has a lot of other options like: Winter Orb, Armageddon, Blessed Alliance, Ghostly Prison, Oblivion Ring, War Priest of Thune, Worship etc.

Poron

08-31-2016, 06:59 AM

isn't Flickerwisp just perfect there?
It flies. It carries a weapon. It works the same as Displacer but also for permanents..

I would play it 4x

hofzge

08-31-2016, 08:54 AM

isn't Flickerwisp just perfect there?
It flies. It carries a weapon. It works the same as Displacer but also for permanents..

I would play it 4x

Have you read the discussion on the last pages?

Surely Flickerwisp is a great card but:
A) It costs WW like Sanctum Prelate
B) It is a lot worse without Aether Vial

Also it is not at all the sme as Displacer without Aether Vial as the big creature (Griselbrand/Marit Lage/Emrakul) that you removed in your turn will then be able to attack on your opponent's turn...

I will probably play something like this next Tuesday:

Creature (25)
3x Blade Splicer
3x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer

Instant (3)
2x Dismember
1x Warping Wail

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Karakas
5x Plains
4x Wasteland

Artifact (7)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)
2x Containment Priest
2x Disenchant
1x Holy Light
2x Mindbreak Trap
3x Rest in Peace
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Winter Orb

Zombie

08-31-2016, 09:16 AM

Marit Lage won't be coming back if it gets Flickered.

hofzge

08-31-2016, 10:52 AM

True but it also doesn't come back when being displaced. My argument is simply that Flickerwisp is way worse than Displacer in this deck.

Fatal

08-31-2016, 11:32 AM

Flickering* pernaments gets value in proper time - for example in upkeep to flicker Land / Marit / target for removal - with Flicker without vial you can get full value from it. That's why Displacer > Flicker without Vial.

@MD.Ghost

Thalia turn 1 is very good no doubt, but how many times you need a thread in middle game/end game and drawing mox specially multiple is just bad. Good advice never count Mox diamond as Mana source - it's a filter/support for land.

With 25/26 lands and 4 moxes you have 29/30 non-thread cards, add removal 3/4, add lock non-creature piece like Chalice and your thread density isn't great for middle game - . We aren't running any CA - we based on Aggro and Tempo - so you need lock piece and as many threads as possible.

From this philosophy I cut removal (even Wail) from MD. From this philosophy I'm running Golems and Smasher, since those threads are must remove in few turns, they generate very good tempo. Smasher is most time just finisher after opponent kill threads already resolved - Golem/TKS/Splicer/Thalia etc.. You want maximum threads G1 - sure if you met combo and you didn't draw hatebear - it happens - you can side to win next two games, but if you met midrange/Control your thread density will be key to success.

For example your list contains 22 threads (counting Core creatures and Flex Creatures) compared to 30 in my list. You need to end game in midgame if opponent starts to gain CA from his strategy in late game it's mostly a lose. 2-3 support cards like Crucible / dedicated removal doesn't change it. That's why I minimalize support for minimum to have as much as possible CQ without filtering - just to be able cast thread by thread until midrange - steamroll strategy. For sure not vs all decks - when opponent have faster way to win (via combo) you focus on disrupt, if opponent can single card wipe the board you never overextend etc..

TLK

08-31-2016, 12:57 PM

MD.Ghost

08-31-2016, 03:06 PM

isn't Flickerwisp just perfect there?
It flies. It carries a weapon. It works the same as Displacer but also for permanents..

As you can see i included 1 Mangara at my latest side. It's a "catch all" card that combos well with Karakas + Displacer, downside: WW and no Haste (Vial), Flickerwisp is similiar but without Vial it is not so good (needs Displacer more than Mangara) and it also has WW and it is no Human and i prefere to keep it simple for Caverns Eldrazi/Human. If you like Flickerwisp, you should try Death & Taxes with Displacer.

@MD.Ghost

Thalia turn 1 is very good no doubt, but how many times you need a thread in middle game/end game and drawing mox specially multiple is just bad. Good advice never count Mox diamond as Mana source - it's a filter/support for land.

With 25/26 lands and 4 moxes you have 29/30 non-thread cards, add removal 3/4, add lock non-creature piece like Chalice and your thread density isn't great for middle game - . We aren't running any CA - we based on Aggro and Tempo - so you need lock piece and as many threads as possible.

I played a lot of Eldrazi before this build and tinkered together with Barook various shells with colors (White/Green). With this in mind, you need a colorfix besides lands. At White Eldrazi it was Lotus Petal (for example around 24 Lands and 3 Petals) which was enough to support Displacer but not stable enough for a White Sideboard or even Maindeck Stuff like Thalia(s). With or without Prelate, this decks needs W Mana togehter with Sollands and Wastelands (especially since Wasteland is stronger compared to common Eldrazi builds). So while Mox Diamond can be bad sometimes, it can also improve your start. Last tournament i got a couple of T1 Thalia(s) or Chalice because i run Mox. As i said many times (we had a lot of this discussion already for Eldrazi) it is ideal to support Mox with Crucible. With only 2 City of Traitor you can also negate the drawback of this land with mox most of the time and i also pitch "Plains" most of the time so i don't waste "Solland" Mana (was a problem for Eldrazi with Eye).

From this philosophy I cut removal (even Wail) from MD. From this philosophy I'm running Golems and Smasher, since those threads are must remove in few turns, they generate very good tempo. Smasher is most time just finisher after opponent kill threads already resolved - Golem/TKS/Splicer/Thalia etc.. You want maximum threads G1 - sure if you met combo and you didn't draw hatebear - it happens - you can side to win next two games, but if you met midrange/Control your thread density will be key to success.

For example your list contains 22 threads (counting Core creatures and Flex Creatures) compared to 30 in my list. You need to end game in midgame if opponent starts to gain CA from his strategy in late game it's mostly a lose. 2-3 support cards like Crucible / dedicated removal doesn't change it. That's why I minimalize support for minimum to have as much as possible CQ without filtering - just to be able cast thread by thread until midrange - steamroll strategy. For sure not vs all decks - when opponent have faster way to win (via combo) you focus on disrupt, if opponent can single card wipe the board you never overextend etc..

I disagree here. Warping Wail for me is excellent since it can do so many things and is not dead vs decks like Dismember. Personally i like flexible solutions like this. You can also hold T1 Ancient Tomb with WWail, since in this case you are save vs combo and can also EoT ramp into +1 Mana for T2 TKS or Golem.

Thread density: For me Chalice or Crucible with Wasteland is also a "Thread" and can win games (more or less) on its own. Same is true for my pair of Jitte which are always excellent (and flexible like Warping Wail) and a "must answer" for most decks (remember all the first strikers). Compared to my (White) Eldrazi Decks the "Creature" Slots are more or less the same, as i mentioned White Eldrazi also needs addtional Manasupport, mix in Jitte and some Wails/Dismember and you have the same Creature count which includes bad topdecks like Mimic.

Problematic Matchups for Eldrazi contains Manadenial and i lost enough games with Smasher, Endbringer etc. in hand because i wasn't able to cast them. I try to avoid the same problem here. At my last tournament (see above) i won 2:1 vs Shardless, but i lost the 2nd Game because i stuck at 2 lands, had 2 TKS in Hand and draw one more, enemy Liliana gladly discard my hand full of "Threads". You see what i mean? More Smasher/Golem can result in more clunky hands and games you will not win since your enemy pack a bunch of manadenial. If my goal is to cast as much "big threads"as possible i would simply run Eldrazi.

Yes sometimes you wish for "Topdeck Smasher" but i feel "Eldrazi & Taxes" aim for more control of the game. Thalia 2.0. won me enough games with Wastelands alone. If i want to run more creatures i would cut Wail/Crucible for MD CPriest since it acts as removal with Displacer, shuts down some decks, is a flashable Blocker/Attacker/Jitte carrier and only needs 2 Mana. But for now i only see the question above: Package 1 or 2 // Lodestone + Splicer or Smasher + Prelate

I was testing a bit last night and Punishing Jund seemed like a fairly tough matchup. Lack of maindeck removal for Deathrite/Bob allowed the opponent to gather card advantage and get around the taxing effects. Endless removal and discard, along with Wastelands, was rough as well.

Yeah since all BGx Decks Punishing Jund is not easy (and gladly not common). I think key should be (compared to Eldrazi) run Thalia(s) and throw some Wastelands against the enemy manabase. Revoker vs Deathrite/Liliana should also work. I won a game vs Shardless exactly in this way. Both Thalias online, and Double Wasteland vs USea and Fetch (since it was tapped thanks to Thalia 2.0), my opponent was left with a basic forest and unable to cast his 2 Decays (for 3 Mana^^). Since we run more White, Rest in Peace is not bad vs Jund (Gofy, PFire) but afterall don't expect a great matchup.

Fatal

08-31-2016, 03:44 PM

I was testing a bit last night and Punishing Jund seemed like a fairly tough matchup. Lack of maindeck removal for Deathrite/Bob allowed the opponent to gather card advantage and get around the taxing effects. Endless removal and discard, along with Wastelands, was rough as well.

Golems and Smasher with Stoneforge package shine vs Punishing Jund. Since they can't decay them, or kill with fire. Key factor is tempo - early Thalia (both ones) shut down their mostly discard which give enough time to cast 3+ cmc threads - Golems and Eldrazis. Splicer with Displacer is also very good here vs Liliana - to bad it's mostly get fired ^^ - anyway it's still cost effective. I can see here advantage with Warping Wail MD - but still not sure that defending is better then being aggresor in this matchup. The weakest card in this matchup is probably Chalice of the Void which is easy target for decay, more over Punishing Jund doesn't run too many 1 CMC cards so side - in your rest in peace and removal and you should be favored after SB.

Some replays for cockatrice vs Aggro Loam:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_3938500.cor

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_3938556.cor

First game was ideal to understand fight against any high 2 cmc spell deck like Jund/Aggro loam etc. Second was festival of flood :-) on both sides, but thread density gives an edge.

Whit3boy316

08-31-2016, 07:16 PM

Post videos of the deck :)

Fatal

09-01-2016, 03:48 AM

Post videos of the deck :)

You mean the list ? It's upper in http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30943-Thalia-Stompy&p=967728&viewfull=1#post967728

Just change -1 Blessed Alliance + 1 Warping Wail

MD.Ghost

09-01-2016, 10:06 AM

Since Fatal discussing Thread density with me I cut the Crucible MD for the 3rd Blade Splicer (Lodestone Version). I want to test the Combo with Displacer (and support dir Lodestone) more often. Every opponent try to avoid Splicer (trigger even got stifled today) so maybe he is really good (4 power, 2 bodies, human, cc3 and important: 2W). Still trying to find the right Balance for all of it. Creature Count: 23

Quick Note: OtP vs Grixis Delver today, got T1 Thalia 2.0 and some Wasteland and my opponent never played something, Thalia 2.0 can be so cool of you manage to open with her, since legacy is full of fetches and duals.

Quick Note 2: I also try 2 Blessed Alliance at Side

Fatal

09-01-2016, 10:19 AM

I'm glad you try this version - Crucible of Worlds is very good card - but works only vs specify matchups where you can't end game in midgame, and you have to gain CA and an other angle to attack since opponent can deny your main strategy.

ESG

09-01-2016, 06:22 PM

I want to test the Combo with Displacer (and support dir Lodestone) more often. Every opponent try to avoid Splicer (trigger even got stifled today) so maybe he is really good

Not to say Blade Splicer isn't decent, but there isn't much else to Stifle out of that list: Thought-Knot Seer, Blade Splicer, and maybe Wasteland if they need the land. Plus, if they can cast Stifle for some value, that's better than having it get shut off by Chalice of the Void a turn or two later. (Obviously the best would be to Brainstorm it away and convert it to a more meaningful card.) I would probably recommend that they board out Stifles in the matchup. A flickered Blade Splicer is obviously a stronger position.

ChemicalBurns

09-01-2016, 06:32 PM

4 Mox ifeels right, if you play less Eldrazi and more White Cards, you simply need the "W" Mana as early as possible, since Thalia 1.0 Turn 1 is also a very good move vs a lot of decks. Yes Mox can be a dead Draw and some hands aren't keepable, but the same is true for other cards. Playing Crucible helps also to support Mox. If you go down to 3 Mox i would add another W Land (which means 26 lands)

Revoker isn't that bad, it helps vs a lot of matchups and you can also name Stuff like Deathrite/Noble etc. as a support for the "Tax" Idea along with Thalia(s), Wastelands, Golem. You don't need Thorn if the build can support Thalia 1.0, since it can also beat, is protectable with Karakas etc.

That's why i like Warping Wail Maindeck - Spell is very flexible and never dead (you can even flash in blocker/attacker/equip carrier). We should also note, that Displacer is another option for "removal".

---------

Some ideas about the two Directions we all Discuss.

Reality Smasher vs Lodestone Golem

For me the right number for both is 3 (!) You don't want draw many of them and most of the time you can't play them fast enough (no Eye of Ugin, most builds only have 2 City etc.) and with "Taxes" (Thalia(s) + Wasteland) the plan is different from Colorless Eldrazi. Golem and Smasher both acts as a "Finisher" after you deploy Thalia/Chalice/Wasteland etc.

Reality Smasher
+Haste is a great ability to overrun your opponent as fast as possible (bonuspoints vs Miracle after Terminus)
+great Body, most of the time only outclassed from Gofy or Knights (both can be "countered" with Rest in Peace at Side)
+Trample, great vs chumpblockers and with Equipment like Jitte
+Eldrazi, so works with Temple and Cavern (common to name Human/Eldrazi)
+cardadvantage vs target removal
-Smasher needs 5 Mana and this can be troublesome, since this build contains less "Sollands" (like Eye), you will also use your own Wastelands more often, since they synergies well with Thalia (and Golem) "Taxes". Opponent will also try to attack your Manabase (Wasteland/Port/Moon) since this tactic works well vs common Eldrazi builds.
-you need "colorless" Mana so Moon is slightly more problematic

Lodestone Golem
+Taxing works well with Thalia(s), Wasteland, Chalice etc. and can also prevent the play of Blockers since it taxes Creatures too
+you can stack it with Thalia 1.0 and Thorn (if you have some at Side)
+only 4 Mana so you can deploy it faster
-taxes our own stuff too (besides Artifacts)
-only 3 toughness, so "dies to bold" and some common legacy creaturs
-Artifact so it will also die too Removal like Ancient Grudge etc. (if your opponent needs to get rid of Chalice and will bring SB common cards)

I feel that both creatures have advantages and disadvantages. Since Golem isn't the king vs Creature based decks, his perfect support is Blade Splicer, since the deck also contains Eldrazi Displacer (and Cavern naming "Human" for Thalia(s)). Blade Splicer is a great card, but i think it only holds its spot together with Lodestone Golem.

If you play Smasher, you are weaker vs Spell based decks but don't need additional support like Blade Splicer. Since you lack support vs "Spells" you can close the gap with Sanctum Prelate. The cleric is weak vs Creature decks (like DnT/Eldrazi) but for this task you have Smasher. The problem with Prelate is, that it will need some slightly adjustments to the manabase.

So at my build above i see

Package 1:
3 Lodestone Golem
2 Blade Splicer

Package 2:
3 Reality Smasher
2 Sanctum Prelate

Talking about Manabase, my build above works solid with Package 1. For Prelate (and 5cc Smasher) i would adjust: -1 Wasteland +1 Caves of Koilos (maybe another one if you cut 1 Plains) for 1-2 more "W" Lands. If we cut down Wastelands (and also aim for cc5 cards like Smasher) Crucible Main isn't so hot anymore. Following that line: -1 Crucible +1 Dismember. So it looks like: 3 Smasher, 2 Prelate, 2 Caves, 1 Dismember (-3 Golem, -2 Splicer, -1 Crucible, -1 Plains, -1 Wastelands) Note that Caves will also improve my Orzhov Pontiff Tech at Side.

Conclusion: I don't think that we can successfully combine Lodestone Golem and Reality Smasher at Main. Both don't work well together and will stress the manabase too much (you aim for a lower cc curve with this deck). Golem and Smasher have advantages and disadvantages but you can adjust the weekness with other creatures.

Build:

// Lands
29 Mana sources (Mix 25-26 Lands with 3-4 Mox Diamond)

// My "Core" Creatures
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

// My "Flex" Creatures
3 Phyrexian Revoker/Stoneforge
3 Lodestone Golem/Reality Smasher
2 Blade Splicer/Sanctum Prelate

// Stuff
4 Chalice of the Void
4-5 Slots for Removal/Support: Umezawa's Jitte, Warping Wail, Dismember, Crucible of Worlds

Sample Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
3 Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Disenchant
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mangara of Corondor

Note that this deck has a lot of other options like: Winter Orb, Armageddon, Blessed Alliance, Ghostly Prison, Oblivion Ring, War Priest of Thune, Worship etc.

I've come to the exact same conclusions about the slots concerning Smasher/Lodestone. Although I've been using the Splicer/Lodestone Golem version so far, next week I'll likely try the Smasher and Prelate version. And yes, 3 of the finishers feels like the correct number to me too.

Anyway, last night I went 2-2 with the deck at the recent weekly. List is follows:

Creatures: (24)
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Blade Splicer
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Thought-Knot Seer

Non-Creature Spells: (11)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lotus Petal
2 Dismember
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Warping Wail

Lands: (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
5 Plains

Sideboard: (15)
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Winter Orb
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Disenchant
1 Batterskull

Round 1: vs. Merfolk
G1: I end up drawing too many Chalices, he beats me down with a Lord into TNN and I can't recover. TNN is pretty hard for us to beat, actually D: I guess Smasher is strong vs. it though.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+2 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Batterskull
+1 Disenchant
+2 Spatial Contortion

G2: Revoker his Vial and he has a slow draw. I think I get a Displacer going and punch through for damage continuously while he struggles to maintain a board. Contortion also kills something.

G3: He has early Vial but I have a Containment Priest off a Cavern to stop that. I then assemble Canonist + Displacer to kill everything, though he's never able to assemble enough mana for TNN while I beat him down with idiots.

Round 2: vs. False Curse
G1: I draw a bunch of Chalices, he ignores them and Predator into Invigorate into some other stuff. I can't don't find Displacer and have taken too much Tomb damage and die to a 12/12 Trampler.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+2 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Batterskull
+2 Spatial Contortion

I think cutting a Revoker over the Thalia would've been better.

G2: He mulls to four and dies to random idiots.

G3: He mulls to five, I City + Petal Blade Splicer, and then turn two Thought-Knot Seer. He gets Bob going but he doesn't find much and dies soon after.

Round 3: vs. Food Chain

G1: He BoPs on the play, I Tomb, Revoker it. Noice. I jam Splicer, he thinks about it (so he has Force) and he let's it resolve. I then cast THC and he Forces. I should've actually jammed my Displacer, hoping to bait the Force, as THC would make all his Griffins come into play and I'd be able to swing in for lethal. Alas, board gets infinitely stalled as he gets Food Chain + Griffins going; eventually I find Displacer to flicker Revoker to Food Chain. He gets in some mediocre beats with Griffins, but I assemble enough mana to double flicker some blockers, untap, flicker some more and swing for lethal... While I live on 1 life from Tomb damage. Whew.

-4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Disenchant
+2 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Batterskull

G2: Is an ultimate grindfest, but simplifies to me having triple TKS but him topdecking reasonably. I end up losing to him Manipulate Fating and him just casting Griffins while Strixen block the path and me bricking and flooding out. He ended up Decaying a Displacer too, at some point, and Displacer proved in these fair MUs to be the most threatening card (especially since I had Splicer in play). As I flooded heavily, I was certain that a topdeck of Displacer would've really changed the game. Alas.

G3: Another grindfest. I think I start with early Revoker into Golem and then Splicer. I attack with Golem into Strix and then he blocks... And then of course the "Whoops it has first strike!" Since I'm nice (and we're pretty friendly, casual attitude in Melb) I let him takes it back (bitterly) and of course this leads to me down the line losing the game. He eventually casts and Angler and has a board of Strix, Agent and Angler. If there was no Strix I could've easily attacked into this board with my first striking Golem and either forced a chump or did a lot of damage (of course, he stabilised the game at 4 life in the end). In fact, I feel I should've attacked here because if he blocks with Angler + Strix, I trade with Strix and eat Angler with Golem and then can cast my Displacer that was rotting in my hand because Golem was taxing me. Alas, I'm dumb and don't attack, never draw a land for 5+ turns and cast Displacer way too late while Griffins again kill me in the air. Boo. I think I should've brought in Contortions for them.

Round 4: vs. Shardless

G1: I do some things, he suspends Visions t1 but then he Cascades with Shardless into Goyfs and Strixen and etc. Board gets stalled, he ACalls, he gets more Goyfs, kills Displacer. They're huge and I can't win.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Revoker
+2 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Batterskull
+3 Rest in Peace

I think the cuts here should be -1 Thalia, -1 Revoker, and I think trying the Winter Orbs in this MU is also good.

G2: Keep a hand of City, Petal, THC, TKS, Displacer x2 + something. Turn one THC makes him do nothing for the first few turns (though he naturally draws his basic Swamp, ugh!). I bash him down low while I draw no lands. I eventually get a Cavern and now with SFM in hand, choose Artificer (synergy!) and get a Jitte, hoping to draw a land. He plays a Wasteland in tapped -.- I draw Tomb off top, play Jitte. He Wastes my Tomb, and I need to a rip a land to equip Jitte so THC can first strike in and wreck his board. Instead I don't and die.

Well, T1 THC was tempting, but probably should've mulliganed that.

The deck was great, but the field felt very hostile to Chalice of the Void. I boarded it out in every MU, though there's arguments to keeping it in on the play vs. Shardless and Food Chain. The BUG decks felt very difficult to beat, especially due to Strixen, and I think although Splicer + Golem should be setup against this, it was still quite awkward at times. I'm thinking of incorporating a Coercive Portal into the sideboard in order to grind through these MUs, perhaps trimming a Winter Orb.

A friend of mine also played the same 75 except -3 Lotus Petal + 3 Mox Diamond. Still not sure which is best - Diamond definitely couldn't of allowed the t1 THC play from me, for example. He went 3-1, losing to Food Chain at the top table. So yeah, alas, the BUG decks are difficult. I know RiP does a lot of work vs. them (though I didn't draw it) but is there any thing we can use in these MUs to grind them out when the board gets clogged? A planeswalker like Elspeth, Knight-Errant, could be good, though it stretches the mana (though giving a Golem/TKS flying sounds awesome!), and as I said, a Coercive Portal could be interesting.

Anyway, thoughts would be great! Did I board wrong anywhere?

MD.Ghost

09-02-2016, 01:06 AM

@ChemicalBurns

You should (as everyone) play 4 Displacer. Reading your Report often feels like "if you get Displacer online you win". It's removal, allow nasty plays like catch a miracle with TKS and acts as protection if someone target another creature.

How good was 4 Thalia 1.0? I feel 4 tends to choke up your hands since we can't shuffle them away or pitch them to chrome mox.

Not sold on lotus petals over mox in a heavy White Build. Yes some hands might keepable with Petal but it is like a one shot, hit or miss. Getting the card you want to play with Petal countered feels horrible.

My current Testbuild :

// Deck: Eldrazi&Taxes. dec (60)

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Waste
2 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
5 Plains

// Creatures
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Lodestone Golem
3 Blade Splicer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

// Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Side Slots and Maindeck overall is more streamlined now.

Blessed Alliance is simply another removal which gets better later in the game and can lead to blowouts. It also kills TNN etc. But afterall it can be anything else.

Thorn is also flexibel and can be Winter Orb or even Sanctum Prelate, what ever fits in the current Meta.

Elspeth was Mangara before, i simply want a solid card vs Miracle.

Medea_

09-05-2016, 01:53 PM

This (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=494) is probably relevant to many of you.

Fatal

09-05-2016, 04:38 PM

Looks like autor in article came to same conculsion about STP and Chalice - good news we are step ahead :-).

Interesting build with Flametongue Kavu - for sure presented list is far from optimal, but on the other side Legacy doesn't run too many creatures with thoughness bigger then 2, unless it's a fat Goyf/Knight/cheated fattie where Kavu can't do too much. List shows that we can run list without MD removal on spell - sure we have Jitte (with SFM it's much chance to fetch it), we also running removal or rather kind of with Displacer.

MD.Ghost

09-06-2016, 06:06 AM

This (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=494) is probably relevant to many of you.

Nice Articel!

What is better than "Kavu"-Splash? (since you already mentioned that Wear//Tear wasn't so hot compared to Disenchant): I would suggest: Shriekmaw - unlike Kavu it kills Gofy + Smasher, can be unblockable (think about Jitte) its cheaper (castable with 2 Mana as a 1shot) and combo well with Displacer: You can Evok him and use Displacer for "a blowout" which only needs 5 Mana (not so much if you count Temple/Sollands). And if you are a little bit "blacker" (which only means Caves of Koilos) than the common build, Orzhov Pontiff at Side gets a little bit better (and yes he is bonkers, even in "Mono W"). Shriekmaw + Pontiff + Displacer will solve a lot of creature matchups if you like the "Removal on a stick" idea.

Questions:

How good/bad was the full playset of Thalia(s) (Hands/Mulligan/Draws etc.) and how good worked Lotus Petal compared to Mox with so many White Cards (and even a splash)?

-------------------------

I am still brewing with "Mono White", after 20 Testmatchups i am at 14:6 (70 win) and adjusted my build at the last matchups (after i see what works and what is not so good) the following way:

5 Plains
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
2 Karakas

4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Blade Splicer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Palace Jailer

Palace Jailer is untested but i feel he can be fit in well and you can change Lodestone Golem with him etc.

A friend of me now test my other build with +3 Smasher +2 Prelate MD instead of 3 Golem and 2 Splicer - we will see how it works.

Bosque

09-06-2016, 11:09 AM

I like Shriekmaw idea a lot, unfortunately it does not hit Angler or DRS.

Fatal

09-06-2016, 02:37 PM

Shriekmaw doesn't kill a lot of other problematic creatures like Deathrite Shaman or Dark Confidant which is quite critical.

On the other hand vs fatties we have much better tool which calls Big Game Hunter (it's a human) too bad it's more black splash with additional option vs removal (Madness for B). Side note it's not "may" so be carefully :-).

Other red options are
Fire Imp
Pardic Arsonist
Inferno Titan

Titan is for sure overcosted for this deck (but is best removal), Fire Imp can't deal with any fattie and Pardic Arsonist is conditonal and works only in midgame/endgame. I still think black splash has more options.

MD.Ghost

09-06-2016, 04:33 PM

I only mentioned Shriekmaw, because he is better than Kavu (can't kill Gofy/Angler/Smasher/Knight etc.) in most cases.

Overall if you need (or want) non conditional removal you must look at White: Swords/Path or (if Chalice matters) Declaration in Stone (Sorcery, but hit ~99% of relevant creatures) all other stuff like Warping Wail, Dismember, Blessed Alliance etc. will only hit "some" targets.

Creature wise besides Shriekmaw, Kavu white also offers stuff like: Banishing Priest, C.Priest+Displacer Combo, or Palace Jailer - white stuff is less conditional but needs more Mana/Color etc.

Morte

09-06-2016, 05:05 PM

Medea_

09-06-2016, 05:59 PM

ChemicalBurns

09-06-2016, 08:39 PM

Seeing Medea's exploration of splash options with Kavu along with MD.Ghosts light black splash makes me want to try this...

Creatures: (25)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Shriekmaw

Non-Creature Spells: (10)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lotus Petal
2 Dismember
1 Warping Wail

Lands: (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Scrubland
1 Karakas

Sideboard: (15)
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

We have black lands for both Shriekmaw and Pontiff, and have boosted the white lands to what I feel is a now comfortable number for main-decking Sanctum Prelate.

I feel there's some unexplored other options with the black splash. Dark Confidant (though I'm sure we'd have to trim Smasher, or perhaps just SB him)? Mardu Strike Leader? I'm sure there's a few interesting creatures we can Cavern out.

I also like the idea of the red splash (because who doesn't like a Flametongue Kavu) and I feel this gives us cards like Sudden Demise as viable sweeper effects too (since mono-white has a lack of these). Of course, having these sweepers Cavernable (like Pontiff) may just be better, but it's nonetheless a nice option. We can also look at Pia and Kiran Nalaar as a viable bomb in the deck too!

Exciting times ahead, I guess, with now three variants:
- MonoWhite
- Wb
- Wr
Coming about. Wg with Sylvan Library could be pretty neat too.

Nonetheless, the core seems like it's really establishing itself.

Edit: P&K Nalaar with Displacer sounds delicious, I will have to brew a list.

CovenantElite30

09-06-2016, 09:11 PM

Shriekmaw is probably pushing it at 5 mana to get real value out of it, and black doesn't really offer a ton of other things that you need. Palace Jailer was something I considered, but it seems a touch risky.

8 Thalia feels pretty nutty, and I wouldn't drop those numbers. The one-two punch of sticking both Thalias on successive turns was devastating.

Also, here is some video content. (https://www.cardhoarder.com/content/hot-takes-with-kent-ketter-hateful-8-191)
Do you think it's worth it to splash Red for just 4 Kavu and Wear/Tear?

If your using him as a sudo removal spell, I guess I could see it.

I dunno, I guess I'm not sold yet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk

ChemicalBurns

09-07-2016, 01:13 AM

Do you think it's worth it to splash Red for just 4 Kavu and Wear/Tear?

If your using him as a sudo removal spell, I guess I could see it.

I dunno, I guess I'm not sold yet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk

I found the deck struggled in many midrange matchups (Shardless, etc.) and having in-built 2-for-1s like Kavu/Shriekmaw is pretty impressive. That being said, Splicer was pretty reasonable for me in MonoWhite, so I can understand your argument that these trumps may be unnecessary. I think, per usual, splashes offer some upsides due to just diversification into effects mono-white does not have (and certainly seem at least doable) but a more fragile mana base is certainly something to consider.

Testing shall tell, and I don't think there's any harm in doing so, but in the end, I think MonoWhite is still an excellent choice.

Edit: Been thinking more about the red version. And came to this:

Creatures: (26)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Eldrazi Obligator
1 Sanctum Prelate

Non-Creature Spells: (9)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lotus Petal
2 Dismember

Lands: (25)
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Plateau
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
3 Wasteland

Sideboard: (15)
3 Rest in Peace
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Sudden Demise
1 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Manic Vandal
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard feels like the biggest work in progress.

I've been toting a Dragon Stompy version recently that abused 4 Imperial Recruiters as a consistency engine for a deck that is well-known for its high-variance. It played a typical prison core and tried to minimise its one-ofs as much as possible, and used Recruiter more as flood protection and a card to play into the endgame to get bombs such as Pia and Kiran Nalaar or Goblin Rabblemaster.

The same principle is applied here. Basically, we sacrifice the end game beef of Smasher for a toolbox of creatures, most of which are incredibly synergistic with Eldrazi Displacer (which is really finding the best shell for itself here). The rest of the deck is just the usual core of "lock" pieces in Thalias, Seers, Revoker and Chalice. Pia and Kiran Nalaar looks similar in terms of its bombiness to Smasher, but grinds much stronger against decks like Shardless BUG, especially when paired with Displacer.

The same idea can be applied to all the versions I feel (black can give us a toolbox of Shriekmaw, Pontiff etc.) though I feel the red cards are more generally synergistic.

I'm kind of excited by this.

MD.Ghost

09-07-2016, 05:38 AM

To stay in color and in stompy manabase, what about Banishing Light or Oblivion Ring?

The deck has plenty of disenchant targets anyway, and if they remove the enchantment they're not removing something else of relevant

Yes both cards can work (since 2W is nearly perfect for White Stompy) BUT: Abrupt Decay and Wear//Tear are common cards and good against this deck. I would avoid "instant" comeback solutions vs BGx and Miracle Decks. Even against DnT, Flickerwisp is a card so O-Ring isn't a save solution. CC2 of Disenchant also is better if you play with or against Thalia (Thorn/Golem).

Shriekmaw is probably pushing it at 5 mana to get real value out of it, and black doesn't really offer a ton of other things that you need. Palace Jailer was something I considered, but it seems a touch risky.

8 Thalia feels pretty nutty, and I wouldn't drop those numbers. The one-two punch of sticking both Thalias on successive turns was devastating.

Also, here is some video content. (https://www.cardhoarder.com/content/hot-takes-with-kent-ketter-hateful-8-191)

Thanks for the Video!

Shriekmaw is not only 5 Mana. Yes, as a creature it cost 1 more than Kavu for more or less the same effect - BUT: it is castable with Evoke for 1B which means Turn1-2 playable if needed as early Removal. With Eldrazi Temple and Displacer it can also be a "4 Lands" play (like Kavu) since you can Evoke for 2 Lands and Flicker with 2 Lands which means: 2 killed Dudes from Opponent and you have a 3/3 and 3/2 (with evasion) on the field.

Mix in Pontiff (this deck needs him vs DnT) and the Black Splash is much better.

We have black lands for both Shriekmaw and Pontiff, and have boosted the white lands to what I feel is a now comfortable number for main-decking Sanctum Prelate.

I feel there's some unexplored other options with the black splash. Dark Confidant (though I'm sure we'd have to trim Smasher, or perhaps just SB him)? Mardu Strike Leader? I'm sure there's a few interesting creatures we can Cavern out.

I also like the idea of the red splash (because who doesn't like a Flametongue Kavu) and I feel this gives us cards like Sudden Demise as viable sweeper effects too (since mono-white has a lack of these). Of course, having these sweepers Cavernable (like Pontiff) may just be better, but it's nonetheless a nice option. We can also look at Pia and Kiran Nalaar as a viable bomb in the deck too!

Exciting times ahead, I guess, with now three variants:
- MonoWhite
- Wb
- Wr
Coming about. Wg with Sylvan Library could be pretty neat too.

Nonetheless, the core seems like it's really establishing itself.

@Build:
Before you go down to 3 Displacer i would cut the 3rd Smasher, because this build is more made for cc3 to operate well enough and Displacer simply is really strong here.

@Recruiter
Not sold on him yet. Yes it's nice to flicker around with Displacer but, Recruiter overall is a very slow play and this deck is not as controllish as DnT. You wan't fast lockdown and beats before your opponent can stabilize. Both, Lodestone and Smasher builds are working this way, Lodestone is more Lockdown and Smasher is more fast beats. Recruiter tends to be slow, the same is true for Stoneforge and Equipment. I like Stoneforge but you invest some turns before you can profit.

@Splashes:

Red: I am not sold on red yet: Yes Kavu might be nice but i feel black is stronger (Shriekmaw + Pontiff) and if you need 4cc Removal Palace Jailer (or even Banishing Priest) should be better as Kavu.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar looks nice, but RR is harder than WW (and Prelate is no easy fit, see first pages) and for flickering Dudes Blade Splicer should be strong enough. Yes P+K can do more if they hit the field, but the price is not low with: 4cc and RR - I think they are better at Imperial Taxes. Best fit would be Magus of the Moon as a supprise vs BUG/Aggro Loam/Lands/12 Post etc . but with Cavern+Mox you can also play Magus at Side with Mono W (like Pontiff). Sudden Demise seems nice but it will not work well vs DnT or Mentor with your own white creatures.

Black: Shriekmaw + Pontiff (but Pontiff works well at Mono W if you play Moxes over Petal)

Green: Reclamation Sage + Sylvan Library both are nice but Library overall is "slow" and can't beat and sadly (for this deck) Sage is not a Human and under a Blood Moon it should be hard if you don't have basic forest avaible (Mono White with 5 Plains, 4 Moxes and "Instant Solutions" like Disenchant are much better prepared vs Moon etc.)

Conclusion: I would stay more or less Mono White (with Pontiff Side), because it prevents one common Angel of Attack vs Eldrazi/Stompy decks (Land Hate: Moon&Wasteland Lock etc.) - Manabase (for a stompy deck) is very stable. If you need Removal on a stick you can play Palace Jailer, or if you fear "Monarch" Banishing Priest or the combo of Containment Priest and Displacer. Overall i would avoid too much "DnT" here (maybe that is also true for Prelate!) because the Meta will adjust and you don't wan't to lose vs Massacre/Dread of Night/Sulfur Elemental/Pyroclasm etc.

Nekrataal

09-07-2016, 06:29 AM

I found the deck struggled in many midrange matchups (Shardless, etc.) and having in-built 2-for-1s like Kavu/Shriekmaw is pretty impressive.

This is what I am testing against a lot. One key is having 6+ Removal postboard without removing too many (at best none of your) threats (creatures). Reg. Removal: For me that is 2 Declaration in Stone, 2 StoP, 2 Palace Jailer and what I find is really good against midrange decks: Winter Orb (and against Shardless RiP). If you can play it at the right time maybe follow it up with a Prelate on 2 or bait out Decay earlier it is meant to stay and buy you time to punch through their line of defense. Winter Orb of course comes with a sacrifice specifically to lower the number of Smashers you play postboard. Actually boarding is quite complicated and I am still figuring out the right configuration. What for sure goes out in postboard games is Chalice, so there are already 4 free slots. Also Revokers can be reduces in numbers as they basically hit Lilly only considering that RiP shuts down Deathrite. Then it depends on your build what else can be taken out.

ChemicalBurns

09-07-2016, 09:17 AM

Yes both cards can work (since 2W is nearly perfect for White Stompy) BUT: Abrupt Decay and Wear//Tear are common cards and good against this deck. I would avoid "instant" comeback solutions vs BGx and Miracle Decks. Even against DnT, Flickerwisp is a card so O-Ring isn't a save solution. CC2 of Disenchant also is better if you play with or against Thalia (Thorn/Golem).

Thanks for the Video!

Shriekmaw is not only 5 Mana. Yes, as a creature it cost 1 more than Kavu for more or less the same effect - BUT: it is castable with Evoke for 1B which means Turn1-2 playable if needed as early Removal. With Eldrazi Temple and Displacer it can also be a "4 Lands" play (like Kavu) since you can Evoke for 2 Lands and Flicker with 2 Lands which means: 2 killed Dudes from Opponent and you have a 3/3 and 3/2 (with evasion) on the field.

Mix in Pontiff (this deck needs him vs DnT) and the Black Splash is much better.

@Build:
Before you go down to 3 Displacer i would cut the 3rd Smasher, because this build is more made for cc3 to operate well enough and Displacer simply is really strong here.

@Recruiter
Not sold on him yet. Yes it's nice to flicker around with Displacer but, Recruiter overall is a very slow play and this deck is not as controllish as DnT. You wan't fast lockdown and beats before your opponent can stabilize. Both, Lodestone and Smasher builds are working this way, Lodestone is more Lockdown and Smasher is more fast beats. Recruiter tends to be slow, the same is true for Stoneforge and Equipment. I like Stoneforge but you invest some turns before you can profit.

@Splashes:

Red: I am not sold on red yet: Yes Kavu might be nice but i feel black is stronger (Shriekmaw + Pontiff) and if you need 4cc Removal Palace Jailer (or even Banishing Priest) should be better as Kavu.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar looks nice, but RR is harder than WW (and Prelate is no easy fit, see first pages) and for flickering Dudes Blade Splicer should be strong enough. Yes P+K can do more if they hit the field, but the price is not low with: 4cc and RR - I think they are better at Imperial Taxes. Best fit would be Magus of the Moon as a supprise vs BUG/Aggro Loam/Lands/12 Post etc . but with Cavern+Mox you can also play Magus at Side with Mono W (like Pontiff). Sudden Demise seems nice but it will not work well vs DnT or Mentor with your own white creatures.

Black: Shriekmaw + Pontiff (but Pontiff works well at Mono W if you play Moxes over Petal)

Green: Reclamation Sage + Sylvan Library both are nice but Library overall is "slow" and can't beat and sadly (for this deck) Sage is not a Human and under a Blood Moon it should be hard if you don't have basic forest avaible (Mono White with 5 Plains, 4 Moxes and "Instant Solutions" like Disenchant are much better prepared vs Moon etc.)

Conclusion: I would stay more or less Mono White (with Pontiff Side), because it prevents one common Angel of Attack vs Eldrazi/Stompy decks (Land Hate: Moon&Wasteland Lock etc.) - Manabase (for a stompy deck) is very stable. If you need Removal on a stick you can play Palace Jailer, or if you fear "Monarch" Banishing Priest or the combo of Containment Priest and Displacer. Overall i would avoid too much "DnT" here (maybe that is also true for Prelate!) because the Meta will adjust and you don't wan't to lose vs Massacre/Dread of Night/Sulfur Elemental/Pyroclasm etc.

I've found P&K pretty comfortable to cast in testing atm actually, as we have 15 red sources (including Caverns). I think the more WW (or RR cards) you include though bias you much more towards Diamond over Petal (for a sturdy coloured mana source). And I also think it's really the perfect card in this deck to go over the top, grinding out midrange strategies with Karakas looping it and it having synergy with our small artifact subtheme. In fact I think this shell is better than Imperial Taxes for P&K, due to the high density of Sol Lands and Displacer.

I think a lot of the other tutor targets I have in the deck are pretty janky though, and I think a card that can be easily castable when flooding on Sol Lands (Endless One, maybe?) could be pretty nice. Magus seems neat... But I think we'll lock ourself out more often. -.-

I also think Recruiter of the Guard, indeed, is a bit slow, but I think shines most in the red version as the quality of tutor targets is pretty high (P&K being foremost). It's really doing what Smasher does (close out the game) but in a very different way, by getting the precision tool we need for the given situation.

That being said, I still think the tried-and-proven white list is the best thing to be doing at the moment, until we figure out how the splashes should really function.

Fatal

09-07-2016, 05:58 PM

Achievement unlocked killing Progenitus from Elves by Blessed Alliance and TNN from Stoneblade same day :-)

I changed in my list -1 Lodestone Golem, -1 Smasher, +1 Blade Splicer, +1 Eldrazi Displacer.

ChemicalBurns

09-08-2016, 07:42 PM

More bad but good, but idk, ideas.

Creatures: (25)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Shriekmaw
2 Kambal, Consult of Allocation

Non-Creature Spells: (10)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember

Lands: (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Karakas

Sideboard: (15)
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull

4c Loam has all showed us how threatening a turn one Dark Confidant can be, especially when defended by Chalice or, in this case, Sanctum Prelate. He's also typically uncounterable. He certainly lets our deck grind a bit better, but of course, our mana curve is as high as hell and can certainly shoot us in the foot (flipping Seer is... pretty painful) and we're already taking damage with Sol Lands (and in this case, pain lands too). Maybe a shell not abusing our Eldrazi friends may be a better way to go, but idk. Deadguy Stompy certainly sounds cool. For black splashing versions, Kambal, Consult of Allocation is also pretty nice. Giving us a nice pile of hatebears while also being somewhat relevant vs. fair matchups (he certainly is vaguely synergistic with Bob too) makes him an interesting contender.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Dice_Box

09-08-2016, 08:08 PM

I do not think Kambal is the right direction to go. If the plan is to lock someone out of casting spells, I think his total effect will be minimal once that plan is in action. While good on his own, his power is somewhat reduced when you think of the shell overall.

ChemicalBurns

09-08-2016, 08:36 PM

Good points; I guess he's more suitable to a shell that soft locks (where you opponent trying to push out of the lock will trigger him and make him valuable) rather than hard lock the opponent (what this deck is essentially trying to do). My main thought by including him is that since this deck is incredibly aggressive (more so than say, normal D&T) the reach he provides seemed useful. Add some life gain that this lists surprisingly appreciate, and we're cooking. But you're right, he may just be too weak overall in the shell.

non-inflammable

09-09-2016, 11:30 AM

Gonna run this tomorrow...

4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Blade Splicer
3x Lodestone Golem
4x Thought-Knot Seer

4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack

3x Plains
2x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Karakas
2x Horizon Canopy
3x Wasteland
3x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai

Looking for a turn one "something" and the SB will probably have 3x thorn of amethyst and a trinisphere to swap out for the spheres.
After I play this for a few matches I'll be able to see if I can switch some numbers and even get a mishra's factory or two into the list.
I will probably have phyrexian revokers somewhere in the 75

EDIT:
So i went a disappointing 2-2 and lost to omnishow and burn.
each loss, my opponent had the perfect number of cards and lands to beat multiple tax effects.

the cards that did nothing were smokestack and crucible.
there is too much "tax" on the board for these cards to land early enough in the game to have the needed impact.

if i was to try this deck again, i would change the mana base into black/white for dark confidant and orzhov pontiff.
and for giggles i can play guardian beast!
possible turn one plays: chalice, sphere, thalia or dark confidant: seems good

MGB

09-09-2016, 06:14 PM

Guys, Palace Jailer is the nuts. I mean, like, the crazy nuts. In any deck that plays Ancient Tombs and white mana sources, you need to be playing this guy.

korstructure

09-10-2016, 11:10 PM

Guys, Palace Jailer is the nuts. I mean, like, the crazy nuts. In any deck that plays Ancient Tombs and white mana sources, you need to be playing this guy.

I'd love to hear more about your experience with Palace Jailer, MGB. Could you provide some context on the matchups and situations in which it seemed promising?

I read a few pages of the Soldier Stompy deck. Do you think Thalia Stompy or Soldier Stompy gets a bigger boost from Palace Jailer?

MD.Ghost

09-11-2016, 01:04 AM

I'd love to hear more about your experience with Palace Jailer, MGB. Could you provide some context on the matchups and situations in which it seemed promising?

I read a few pages of the Soldier Stompy deck. Do you think Thalia Stompy or Soldier Stompy gets a bigger boost from Palace Jailer?

MGB is right, Palace Jailer is very good. See discussing us over Kavu/Shriekmaw for nearly the same cc but other colors (and creatures für Cavern). Palace Jailer will not have a good Body but will exile all from Delver over Strix, Gofy till Grisel (yesterday I got him vs Show and Tell).

First me and Nekrataal searched for more Removal and Planeswalker cards (SB slots for Shardless, Miracle etc). Test games showed Jailer was good enough going from 1 to 2 SB slots, i switched most games my Lodestone Golem with him so now I finally I test him as a 2off MD. He is good on it's own (even if it is only for card draw).

I got one game vs Blade and my Thalias can't pass a TNN I resolvt Jailer and my opponent had the choice of let me draw 2 cards a turn or attacking with TNN for Monarch, i won this game because I still draw enough cards and every counter Attack was harder for him since TNN alone is not really a game ender. Another game I got finally Displacer + Jailer online vs DnT and it was bonkers.

So yes Jailer is good enough to test. He is better at Soldiers (profit from all Tribal stuff) but this build can abuse him as well with fast Stompy mana, Cavern for Humans and Displacer Action.

Fatal

09-11-2016, 06:24 AM

MD.Ghost

09-12-2016, 05:19 AM

Second conclusion about Jailer:

This card has inner risky factor, specially in Aggro/Midrange matchups, for example I wouldn't side them in vs U/R delver - sure it can exile delver (for 4cc so not so good), but losing Monarch can be abyssal if opponent can chump our attacks (smasher is really necessary here).

Scenarios:
1) So this card can give an edge if matchup is tide (not a lot of creatures on table), you remove their only thread so you basically do 3 for 1 (1 for Exiled creature, 1 for Monach endstep, and for sure 1 for Monarch next endstep).

2) If you has less creature (1 for Exiled creature, 1 for monarch endstep) so it's still 2 for 1, but things can get nasty when opponent attacks with enough blockers, now he has +1 CA each turn until you get advantage.

Yes Jailer (and i think that is the "fear of monarch" effect) has a risk, but we must ask ourself: Is it still better than cards like Kavu/Shriekmaw in the situation or for the task "Removal on legs"?

Scenario 1: You remove the only thread (and we have a lot of spicy ones like Gofy/Strix/Delver till Emrakul) and continue the beats with early Thalia(s), TKS etc. This deck wants to take advantage from stompy/fast mana, so you simply outplay your opponent or forbit to play with you thanks to Taxes stuff or backbreaking effects like early Thalia 2.0.

Since one of the goal shut be: "don't fold in the same situations that are bad for colorless eldrazi" like: Facing Strix/Gofy/Delver/Blood Moon because we wan't to play with White Cards to gain advantage over the pure colorless stuff) The deck shut be able to have a way better BGx (mostly Shardless) matchup etc. Thalia & co are here to simply play stronger cards. (Thalia 1.0 is a thorn on legs, manabase is able to use Wastelands better and don't fold to enemy Manadenial thanks to lower cc, mox mana etc.)

Scenario 2 is generally bad because something went wrong with the game plan. So you are behind because it means your opponent still has +1 Creature than you. It can only be "ok" if you opponent aims to become monarch and attack with all of his creatures and you can take advantage (if you have more than the Jailer) to block (remember lot of first strikers) and have the possibility for counterattack. If you are way behind on the field (for example facing 3 gofy etc.), the game is more or less over. Yes casting Jailer now may be not good enough but the same is true for every other card in that slot. It basically means your only out is stuff like "All is Dust" and i think we all agree this card isn't good enough for this deck, heck even colorless eldrazi only use it as a sideboard card.

Conclusion: A pair of Palace Jailer shut be ok as a maindeck choice - if they are to risky (since you can't fire and forget) there's always the possibility to play a common removal spell.

EDIT: For the deck name: "(The) Beauty and the Beast" which means "Thalia & Eldrazi"

Dice_Box

09-12-2016, 07:11 AM

I am going to run this tomorrow, looking at running either a two of Leonin Arbiter or 2 Aven Mindcensor. I have yet to choose which one, what are your views on these two?

For the record I am using ChemicalBurns list from the podcast:

Lands: (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

Creatures: (25)
2 Blade Splicer
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer

Non-Creature Spells: (10)
2 Dismember
1 Warping Wail
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond

The planed cuts are -1 Revoker and -1 Displacer for the two added cards. I will also fuck with the side somewhat, but I do not think that is important.

hofzge

09-12-2016, 10:30 AM

I am going to run this tomorrow, looking at running either a two of Leonin Arbiter or 2 Aven Mindcensor. I have yet to choose which one, what are your views on these two?

I would rather play the Arbiters, as they are cheaper and take Thalia2's job of punishing Fetchlands, but even more i would just play ChemicalBurns list as I think it is quite good and close to a good configuration for mostly monocolor. I will play this on tomorrow:

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Karakas
4x Plains
4x Wasteland

Instant (2)
2x Dismember

Creature (25)
2x Blade Splicer
4x Eldrazi Displacer
3x Lodestone Golem
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer

Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)
1x Batterskull
2x Containment Priest
1x Disenchant
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Orzhov Pontiff
3x Rest in Peace
1x Spatial Contortion
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Winter Orb

Also I play just one Potiff as i only own one... Otherwise i think ChemicalBurns 2of is perfect.

The planed cuts are -1 Revoker and -1 Displacer for the two added cards. I will also fuck with the side somewhat, but I do not think that is important.

Why not cut some Blade Splicers instead? The Displacer is such a great creature and the Revoker has a good mana cost to often be played on T1.

Secretly.A.Bee

09-12-2016, 10:59 AM

Playing revoker only matters at your LGS and in games 2 and 3. Playing Revoker turn one game one is a terrible play, generally speaking. Blade Splicer runs away with the game if there is a Blade Splicer out with an active Displacer.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

MD.Ghost

09-12-2016, 11:33 AM

@Phyrexian Revoker: I have found this guy isn't that bad, even T1 (sure its better too have Chalice/Thalia T1^^), for me it is like playing with "Cabal Therapy" (and i have a lot of experience with this card in builds without Probe!) - sure it is much better if you are at your LGS and are familiar with Players/Meta but if i have no T1 play other than Revoker i may throw him on the battlefield for the common Top or Vial (Blind Therapy also goes: Brainstorm and it hits often), basically Top and Vial are common cards (Miracle/DnT) and you don't want to see them (especially before you can use Chalice). If you miss you still have a 2/1 Turn 1 for beats, since this deck is made for aggressive beatdown afterall. What i liked so far at Revoker, he close the gap between Eldrazi and Human as a colorless Turn 1/2 Mana solution if you can't use the Mana for Chalice/Jitte etc. so with 3 Revoker, 2 Jitte and 4 Chalice you have always something to do with colorless-stompy-mana and if you see what deck your opponent plays, you will also find some targets for revoker even if it isn't crucial.

Conclusion: As always it depends to your hand and you have more than enough other T1 plays with this deck, but Revoker isn't so bad and open with him should be better than wasting a turn, doing nothing in most cases.

@Blade Splicer: If you play him, 3 is a good number. As i wrote i placed 2nd at my first tournament with this deck and i played 2 Splicer+3 Golem. I realised that Splicer is better than Golem (unless you face Combo), 2W Mana is perfect, 2 Bodies is fine (removal/attack/block), a colorless 3/3 with first strike matters against most legacy creatures and the combo with displacer is threatening against most creature based decks. Blade Splicer is also very good vs BGx Decks that are naturally good vs Stompy Shells (like Eldrazi)

Conclusion: If you need a tool vs "fair" decks, Blade Splicer is a good one and i would play 3 Splicer + 3 Golem if this is the preferred deck version. But Splicer without Lodestone will have to fight for his spot, so i think he is only good if you play also Lodestone Golem which (at least for me) means: No Smasher

Note: Sadly for me Lodestone Golem wasn't so good (3 toughness...) vs most creature based decks. It seems the meta has learned (thanks to eldrazi) to deal with 5/5 creatures and afterall Golem is easier to kill. So i switched Golem at most games (vs non Combo/Control) with other Sideboard Cards (like Palace Jailer etc.)

I think i finally developed a "Mono White" Version based on Eldrazi and Humans that is save enough to play in unknown meta games and nearly a streamlined stock list without "brew" ideas. I will post the list the next days to put the choices up for discussion.

ChemicalBurns

09-13-2016, 03:34 AM

Dice, I have trimmed the Golem package, Petals and Cities for +2 Plains, +3 Smasher +2 Sanctum Prelate +1 Displacer +3 Diamond. Side remains the same.

I could see a Jailer over the 4th Displacer or the fourth Revoker, though I will need to test further. Though everyone's results with it looks promising.

Displacer looks mediocre at first but it continues to over perform for me and is the card I want most in fair matchups as a mana sink. However, versions without Splicer / Kavu / main deck SFM do make it look a little more lacklustre and it as 3-of seems reasonable.

Revoker I think is important as additional t1 plays (especially off Tomb), especially as a way to cripple the BUG decks from accelerating with DRS. I have thought about Arbiter though, and I do think trimming Revoker for some is not a bad plan, since they fill the same slot on the curve.

Dice_Box

09-13-2016, 09:25 AM

Love the deck, fucking hate Mentor...

How is Prelate treating you?

MD.Ghost

09-13-2016, 10:56 AM

Still not sold on Sanctum Prelate here - Mana can be troublesome (yes you have it vs grindy matchups like miracles, but vs combo you need it ASAP), afterall it's a 2/2 so you can expect on one hand: More Sweepers like Pyroclasm/Kozilek's Return (see BoM Miracle Lists) and on the hand you can't really attack with this guy, most creatures can kill it and Miracle with Flash Clique/Snapcaster can also lead to a blowout. I think Prelate can be strong (and i also made some testgames with him) but once the meta adjust that creature isn't so hot anymore.

Speaking above Miracles - i love this deck - i faced some really nice situations like: Thalia + Karakas on the field vs Blood Moon, my opponent plays Sword, i respond with Disenchant and after Moon was gone i bounced Thalia with Karakas and played it the following turn with Cavern protection again. Or today my opponent made an early entreat for 2 Angels (my board was empty at that time) and i played 1 Palace Jailer (with Cavern), exile 1 Token, draw a card (sitting at 28 life), my opponent also attacked for the monarch token (draw a card), i played my 2nd Jailer for the last token and never lost Monarch again and won with 1 extra card each turn. I hold Jailer at hand for a couple of turns (waiting for stuff like mentor) but i think (if you can prevent Snapcaster counterattacks) it is still good to jam him on to the field if its empty. Mangara was also very good, taxing the mana(karakas) from one opponent each turn or eat a sword (which means one less for Eldrazi&Thalia(s)). Still unsure if i want Mangara or Elspeth vs Miracles, but i really like the ability from Mangara to catch everthing like Moon, Moat, Jace and Mentor and if you have Karakas or Displacer you can combo it out.

About Displacer: I also played around with a lot of cards (like Splicer) that are very good with Displacer, but afterall Displacer itself is strong enough and keep the field in check. Remember that you can protect other creatures with him against spot removal, or you can abuse TKS (counter Miracle, or controll the draws from slow decks with big creatures, permanents or sorcery speed stuff) and finally (and i think he deserves a maindeck spot) you can combo with Jailer. I also found him not bad vs Miracle, since he can control mentor a little bit and can exile Angel tokens.

mifme

09-13-2016, 06:31 PM

MTGeezy

09-13-2016, 09:18 PM

Someone won a legacy 2k on 9/11 with this list.

http://i.imgur.com/ZDslC0R.jpg

MD.Ghost

09-14-2016, 03:20 AM

I played the list in the link below last weekend, lost my win and in for top8 but the deck feels really strong. I don't like blade splicer and loadstone. Any way here's my take on it and a deck tec by the mkm team.

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2016/09/11/deck-tech-eldrazi-taxes/

Thanks for the link and gratz for a solid run!

Why 3x Faerie Macabre? The entire deck is made to crush combo, you even play 2 Priests maindeck (and the common RiP at Side), i don't see that you must overload with Graveyard Hate, since Priest + RiP can be played Turn 1 and you have still stuff like Chalice, Thalia etc.

Someone won a legacy 2k on 9/11 with this list.

http://i.imgur.com/ZDslC0R.jpg

Gratz at the winner.

Sadly i don't like the list and can't imagine it runs smoothly. I am still not convinced that Petal is the deal over Mox if you play so many White Cards (it was different with Eldrazi builds, you only needed White for Displacer) Especially if you play the full playset Smasher and also high cc cards like kavu that needs a color. Throwing away a Petal to play a sword also feels not right. It also seems risky to run a deck without Disenchant effect, i can't imagine to win vs Miracle and cards like Blood Moon, Moat, Back to Basics, Ensnaring Bridge etc. The advantage over Eldrazi (and the reason to play this build) should always be, that you have better matchups (and cards) than colorless Eldrazi. If you aren't superior in this way, there is no reason (besides personal preferences) to play a weaker "Stompy" Shell - that is why Eldrazi suppressed most other Stompy decks, simply because it do the job pretty well.

If you like the Red Splash: I would still cut every Kavu for Palace Jailer, since Jailer is a human (great bonus point) and will also kill creatures that Kavu can't harm (keep in mind that a Gofy is still a wall to Thalia(s), TKS etc.).

With red (and the right lands) i would try 1-2 Nahiri, the Harbinger at main, you can cycle useless Thalia+Mox+Chalice copies, kill stuff with support of Thalia 2.0 and Displacer (or tapped attackers from last turn) and simply gain advantage over the turns. For Sideboard you can try Wear // Tear over Disenchant and i would also try 1-2 copies of Pia and Kiran Nalaar against Miracle/Control/Moon.dec.

That 3 cards should be the reason to play red (and cripple the manabase with non basics) not a Kavu...

Note: Personal record with my White Build yesterday:

2:0 Miracle (Legends build)
2:0 Miracle
2:0 UR Delver
1:2 OmniSneak (some really bad hands/draws involved)
2:1 DnT

ChemicalBurns

09-14-2016, 03:53 AM

square_two

09-14-2016, 10:05 AM

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-kaladesh-bazaar-of-moxen-legacy-challenge-and-white-stompy

Did a big-ish write-up of the deck in my recent Weekly article. Unfortunately didn't mention the new tech of Jailer (and Arbiter/Wingmare, I guess).

I enjoyed seeing the Bobs in the Deadguy Stompy list, made me chuckle. I've tried running them in Braids Stax actually, since there is a very nice human suite with Braids/Ophiomancer/Mardu Strike Leader/Bob and plenty of ways to sacrifice it if needed. It needed more testing, but still left me with the idea that having some cheap and persistant card draw in a stompy shell can be insane.

korstructure

09-14-2016, 01:57 PM

I really like your direction with the RW -> Mono W list, MD.

So it sounds like you'd like to sub Kavus -> Palace Jailers and Petals -> Mox Diamond?

Might we also increase the number of MD Palace Jailers because its draw is relevant in non-creature matchups?

Thanks for the link and gratz for a solid run!

Why 3x Faerie Macabre? The entire deck is made to crush combo, you even play 2 Priests maindeck (and the common RiP at Side), i don't see that you must overload with Graveyard Hate, since Priest + RiP can be played Turn 1 and you have still stuff like Chalice, Thalia etc.

Gratz at the winner.

Sadly i don't like the list and can't imagine it runs smoothly. I am still not convinced that Petal is the deal over Mox if you play so many White Cards (it was different with Eldrazi builds, you only needed White for Displacer) Especially if you play the full playset Smasher and also high cc cards like kavu that needs a color. Throwing away a Petal to play a sword also feels not right. It also seems risky to run a deck without Disenchant effect, i can't imagine to win vs Miracle and cards like Blood Moon, Moat, Back to Basics, Ensnaring Bridge etc. The advantage over Eldrazi (and the reason to play this build) should always be, that you have better matchups (and cards) than colorless Eldrazi. If you aren't superior in this way, there is no reason (besides personal preferences) to play a weaker "Stompy" Shell - that is why Eldrazi suppressed most other Stompy decks, simply because it do the job pretty well.

If you like the Red Splash: I would still cut every Kavu for Palace Jailer, since Jailer is a human (great bonus point) and will also kill creatures that Kavu can't harm (keep in mind that a Gofy is still a wall to Thalia(s), TKS etc.).

With red (and the right lands) i would try 1-2 Nahiri, the Harbinger at main, you can cycle useless Thalia+Mox+Chalice copies, kill stuff with support of Thalia 2.0 and Displacer (or tapped attackers from last turn) and simply gain advantage over the turns. For Sideboard you can try Wear // Tear over Disenchant and i would also try 1-2 copies of Pia and Kiran Nalaar against Miracle/Control/Moon.dec.

That 3 cards should be the reason to play red (and cripple the manabase with non basics) not a Kavu...

Note: Personal record with my White Build yesterday:

2:0 Miracle (Legends build)
2:0 Miracle
2:0 UR Delver
1:2 OmniSneak (some really bad hands/draws involved)
2:1 DnT

Fatal

09-14-2016, 02:08 PM

MD.Ghost

09-19-2016, 07:53 AM

I finally recored all my Matchups with this deck.

I played 53 Matchups and gained ~75% win rating with this archetyp including various builds with Blade Splicer + Lodestone Golem and all other Ideas with Prelate/Smasher/some Splashes etc. Overall the deck concept worked well enough for me.

You can find my data under the following link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PFz0pVFQT2dZNrDOlm0LUYqcMQ1K18vNXsfhEOZNWDo/edit?usp=sharing

I think i finally developed a "Mono White" Version based on Eldrazi and Humans that is save enough to play in unknown meta games and nearly a streamlined stock list without "brew" ideas. I will post the list the next days to put the choices up for discussion.

As i wrote, i can now go into more details:

My current "Mono White" Build (number 3 at data sheet):

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x City of Traitors
2x Karakas
5x Plains

Creature (23)
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2x Palace Jailer
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Reality Smasher
3x Phyrexian Revoker

Artifact (10)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (2)
2x Warping Wail

Sideboard (15)
2x Containment Priest
2x Disenchant
2x Mangara of Corondor
2x Orzhov Pontiff
2x Rest in Peace
2x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Swords to Plowshares

As you can see this builds features: 8x Thalia(s), Reality Smasher, Palace Jailer and overall is very streamlined without 1off random cards etc.

Creature base is 10x Human, 10x Eldrazi which works very good with Cavern of Souls, especially if you count "WW" creatures like Jailer and Mangara (Side). Revoker is basically additional disruption and (which is important) a cc2 creatures that can be played with any mana, so it fills some gaps here and there.

Why 8x Thalia(s)? I started with 3/3 for both Thalia(s), but my conclusion was: Each Thalia is very strong and i want the lady every game and as early as i can, since disruption only matters if it is deployed fast enough (which differs the stompy shell from builds like DnT). So you don't want to tutor reduced copies of Thalia with Recruiter, since this play is super slow if you have no Vials. If you play interactiv plays your opponent will throw removal at Thalia or will try to counter them on the stack, both is fine if you have other copies in hand or draw them immediately. Playing the full playset feels only wrong, if your hand are full with more copies and you need more impact on the field which can occur against fair creature decks. In this cases other cards like Blade Splicer are better, but overall the case (for me) was not common enough. It is also very nice that you can protect Thalia(s) with Karakas. Against DnT this can be risky, but i normally trim Thalia 1.0 in this matchup for Containment Priest and finally you have Wasteland to kill enemy Karakas if needed.

Palace Jailer was the last missing link for the maindeck. It completes the removal suite of Jitte, WWail, Displacer (which also works as a combo) and ensures that you draw more gas or simply enables small creatures to pass "walls" like Gofy or Strix.

MD Flexslots? Difficult to answer but i think Warping Wail can be another card - but for me it performed very solid and i would only cut with a color splash in mind (see above).

Sideboard: Full of solutions to an open meta it can be changed for local tournaments etc. The 2 slots (which means 4 cards) i would adjust are Thorn of Amethyst and Mangara. Thorn for me was solid, but if you don't see/fear combo decks often and wan't more stuff against BUG/Miracle you can also try cards like Winter Orb here.
Mangara is a card i always want to change with stuff like Planeswalker cards (and i have done it durring testing) since it aims more or less for the same matchups (control like Miracle or fringe decks like 12post/MUD etc.). For me Mangara worked well enough since i run this build (number 3 at data sheet). If i look at the planeswalker cards i can only see Elspeth 1.0, or Nahiri, or Kaya. The last two need a heavy color splash.

Splashes:

First the biggest problem: Any real splash (which includes Planeswalker) will need result in a crippled manabase and you will face the same problems like Eldrazi (Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Land Hate etc.) if this is "ok" for you, than a Splash might work well. Little splashes (like i do with Pontiff at Side) will work without any adjustments because Mox+Cavern (and the right creature) are enough for only 2 sideboard cards.

With the flexslots i mentioned above you can easily try 1-2 Planeswalker main and also have room for some sideboard ideas.

Red Splash:
With red (and the right lands) i would try 1-2 Nahiri, the Harbinger at main, you can cycle useless Thalia+Mox+Chalice copies, kill stuff with support of Thalia 2.0 and Displacer (or tapped attackers from last turn) and simply gain advantage over the turns. For Sideboard you can try Wear // Tear over Disenchant and i would also try 1-2 copies of Pia and Kiran Nalaar against Miracle/Control/Moon.dec.

Please avoid the Kavu idea since Palace Jailer is stronger.

Looking at the Flexslots: This will result into -1/2 Warping Wail MD for +1/2 Nahiri and Side: -2 Disenchant for +2 Wear // Tear, -2 Mangara for +2 Pia and Kiran and you can adjust the Warping Wails/Nahiri Slots with Thorn if needed.

Black Splash:
Same Slots as above, but instead of the Nahiri/WWail switch i would try 1-2 Kaya, Ghost Assassin. With Palace Jailer you don't need Dark Confidant, which simply is a very risky card together with high cc Eldrazi cards and Ancient Tomb.

Blue Splash:
I only a played some games with Lavinia of the Tenth and it is hard to run more cc5 cards but overall Lavina was not bad, since she has a very nice EtB effect which can result into alpha strike allowing our small creatures to pass a stalled board and Lavina work also well with Displacer and Karakas.

Green Splash:
The only real good card for the Maindeck would be Sylvan Library for better card selection, especially with 8 Thalia(s) and 4 Moxen. Best Green card for side can be Reclamation Sage.

Conclusion:
Overall the big question is: Are these adjustments strong enough to justify a weaker manabase? I think the strongest Splash currently is red but i don't feel a Splash is needed.

AceOfJacks

09-20-2016, 02:39 PM

I played a list like the one above this post last night. One thing I just couldn't handle was True-Name Nemesis. Maybe I allowed it to run away with the game when I could have played a little more suicidal, considering my opponent was at 1 life at the end of the game ...

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
4 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple

Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Creature
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Containment Priest
2 Palace Jailer
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Rest in Peace
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Phyrexian Revoker

R1 Esper Stoneblade, 0-2
G1 he lands 2x True-Name Nemesis. He keeps 1 up to block, and bolts me every turn with the other one.
G2, side in Revokers and StP. He lands 1 True-Name, and lands 1 Stoneforge, fetching Sword of Fire and Ice. I land my own Sword, he Abrupt Decays it. I land a Revoker, name Stoneforge. I waste his lands so he cannot cast the Sword. He lands a second Stoneforge, fetches Jitte. I Recruit a second Revoker, name Jitte. We durdle for a few turns, then he finally starts attacking with TNN. I land a displacer and a containment priest, start exiling his stoneforges, start attacking back. He kills my revoker naming jitte, casts and equips his jitte, beats in more with TNN. I land my own Jitte, equip, attack with everything. He goes to 1, but he pumps his TNN for lethal the next turn.

R2 Grixis Delver, 0-2.
G1 he has 2 flying Delvers. I could have PalaceJaolered 1, but it would have only given me 1 more draw step. He puts me in bolt range and I concede to the fliers.
G2, sb in stp. T1 Thalia1.0, but he wastes my land. I end up landing a T-K S, he holds brainstorm, fow, 2x pyromancer. I pull fow, since I had no Cavern. He rips 2 more wastelands, lands 2 pyros, and counters everything else. He creates too many elemental tokens, and runs me over.

R3, 4c Punishing Fire / Loam / Lands, 2-0
He starts off with Underground Sea, so I assume he's on Grixis Delver. He then follows up with Grove, so I assume something spicy. He plays P.Fire on my Thalia, and Loams, but he can't find anything other than dual lands. I end up swarming him with Displacers and more than enough mana to displace anything in case he tries to p.fire a dude.
G2, sb in RiP and Revoker, and Disenchant ... I saw Sylvan Library and Mox Diamond G1. He does his 4c durdle, abrupt decays a dude, labda a dark depths with no stage. More of the same g1, I use displacers to keep threats on the table, just in case he tries to kill them.

R4, homebrew, 2-0
G1 he plays t1 Helm of Awakening. I play Thalia1.0. He plays a Cloud Key, names artifact. I play Thalia2.0. He plays Etherium Sculptor, then plays a bunch of 2drop cantrip artifacts, like Tsabo's Web, Elsewhere Flask, blah blah. He sacrifices 3 artifacts, plays Salvage Titan. More draw triggers from the Wellspring sacrifices. I cast Displacer. He casts Sculpting Steel, copies Salvage Titan. I cast Containment Priest, exile his Salvage Titans with Displacer. Thalia beatdowns.
G2, sb in Disenchant and stp. Literally more of the same G1. Displacer mvp, except of containment priest, its palace jailer, exiling his creatures.

Total, 2-2.

Thoughts, I hate TNN. The rest is unknown yet, since I need more playtesting to determine what else to do. Maybe cut disenchant and put in a dude with disenchant etb effect. Use recruiter and displacer to toolbox out removal options?

Fatal

09-20-2016, 05:14 PM

I strongly advice 3 x SFM with 2 equips (depends on meta jitte/Bskull/SOFI) to fight problematic races or creatures. Second advice is to try Blessed Alliance vs TNN / and other MU where you need removal ASAP since you are at low life - getting 4 life and killing problematic creature gives edge over tempo.

MD.Ghost

09-21-2016, 07:23 AM

Thoughts, I hate TNN. The rest is unknown yet, since I need more playtesting to determine what else to do. Maybe cut disenchant and put in a dude with disenchant etb effect. Use recruiter and displacer to toolbox out removal options?

I am not sold on your toolbox MD and Side with Stuff like Leyline?! I would advice to change 1 Priest with 1 Revoker since you also play 2 Jailer (if you want to Combo with Displacer) and Revoker has a unique effect for this deck (answer problematic stuff that you can't kill like Equipment).

@True Name Nemsis:

That card can be bad, but you have plenty of "soft tools" to fight TNN like: Droping Thalia 2.0 which a) slow down the development of a manabase b) works nice with your own Wastelands to prevent 3 Mana for TNN c) TNN enters tapped which means one more swing and a window to overrun them later. I would also suggest my 2 copies of Reality Smasher which also "ignores" an unequiped (single) TNN. A pair of TKS should also work, since 4/4 body helps - so it is good to have some Eldrazi-Beater in this deck. Displacer itself is also a nice tool - it can't interact with TNN but it can flicker the blocked creature to avoid damage from TNN, which means, once you have some creatures on the field and active displacer you can still pass the "TNN wall". I also used Palace Jailer in one game against TNN simply to force a reaction: "Let me draw 2 cards each turn or attack with TNN which opens a window for counterattack". If you have both Thalias on the field and Karakas it also means you can "shock" your opponent and replay the blocked Thalia 2.0.

Conclusion: Yes TNN can be nasty (thanks Wizards...) but the Maindeck should be able to fight back in some way so TNN alone is no auto loss.

You still need more help?:
-Orzhov Pontiff (i like this card a lot!)
-Blessed Alliance (removal that can lead to a blowout thanks to escalate)
-Sword of Fire and Ice / Sword of Body and Mind (also blanks Gofy!)
-Flying (This deck can use creatures like Aven Mindcensor or Vryn Wingmare)
-Planeswalkers (Elspeth, Knight-Errant = fly over it // Elspeth Tirel = enforces a response // Gideon Jura = break of "Walls")
-Blade Splicer + Eldrazi Displacer Combo to overrun TNN (same is true for other "Human Flicker" stuff like: Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Geist-Honored Monk etc.)
-Lavinia of the Tenth to lockdown TNN&Co (+Karakas/Displacer Combo)

As you can see this deck can use many cards to pass TNN - i only mentioned stuff that can also be usefull in other situations and (besides Pia&Kira) don't need another Splash/Manabase.

AceOfJacks

09-22-2016, 11:18 PM

You would think that 24 lands is enough to not get mana screwed. I guess I just suck at shuffling.
Went 1-2 tonight.

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
4 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple

Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Creature
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Palace Jailer
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher

SB
4 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
3 Council's Judgment
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine (Grabbed the wrong sword on my way out of the door. Whatever.)

R1 Helm of Awakening / Salvage Titan Homebrew.
Thalia2.0 wrecks him both games. He cannot deal with all the Time Walks she gives. No need to further comment.
2-0 match, 1-0 total.

R2 Reanimator.
G1 he super duper wrecks me with his recursion strategies. Inkwell Leviathan hurts when you cannot kill it.
G2, Rest in Peace gets there. Also had Containment Priest just in case of Show and Tell.
G3, he turn 1 plays: Island, Careful Study, Petal, Careful Study, Petal, Reanimate Grave Titan. Well ... fuck.
1-2 match, 1-1 total.

R3, R/G Lands.
G1 he Loams 363885251 Wastelands, and has a Punishing Fire. Displacer hits him for a little while, but he kills me after he Mazes the Displacer to oblivion.
G2, I draw ... 2 ... lands ... all game. I landed a Rest in Peace though! Irrelevant, as I have no mana for all the Thought-Knot Seers and Displacers in my hand. He draws into his Krosan Grip, kills Rest in Peace, and I draw 7 cards, all creatures, while he draws Wastelands and Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage.

What have we learned? I either draw no lands, or flood out. Time to burn my collection?

MD.Ghost

09-23-2016, 03:13 AM

What have we learned? I either draw no lands, or flood out. Time to burn my collection?

You only have a small sample size and i guess your Reanimate Opponent was very lucky (and luck matters at this game from time to time), Reanimator is a good matchup you have a lot of tools to fight them (more than DnT or Eldrazi) and you can deploy hate as early as T1! But yeah i also faced matchups (like one vs infect) with T1 Daze-Proof Thalia (and more stuff in hand) and eat a force and got killed on his 2nd turn - beeing on the draw vs fast combo can sometimes be game over, especially if they also have protection - but this is not a common case.

But (for my taste) your build isn't so good. I will go into the details:

Look at the lands: only 24 are very risky, especially with Mox Diamond and (without Diamond) 4 Karakas can cause additional trouble (even DnT reduced numbers to 2-3 Karakas). You will not win enough games with a stompy shell if the manabase isn't solid enough and you can't count on lucky hands/draws that are able to win games on the spot.

Creatures: You only have 24 lands, but you have a high manacurve (higher than mine with 25 lands) because you included the 3rd Smasher, Batterskull (with only 2 Stoneforges so not common to cheat it in every time / and hardcasting can lead to 6 mana with Thalia on the field) and Recruiter which is a creature that also needs mana and/or slow you down because if you can't (no Vial) cast the creature the same turn, your opponent can tax your fragile manabase (so you are unable to cast the tutored creature the next turn) or can prepare discard/counter/removal. Overall i don't feel Recruiter is the right creature here. Yes he works well with Displacer but this play is also very slow/grindy and displacer can do a lot of other usefull things over a game. Recruiter itself can't beat well and means: Waste a Turn for hopefully a very good target for the current situation. Without Revoker MD you also miss the opportunity for more colorless T1 plays and it is also a cheap creature that work well with stompy mana.

In my humble opinion Side is also not a good config. Playset Rest in Peace is overkill and one more dead draw (think about mox, thalia etc.) if drawn multiple - yes your opponent can kill it, but the damage is already done in most cases and (unless you fight real graveyard decks like Reanimator or Dredge) you don't have to slam it on the field T1 or T2 against most matchups. Council's Judgment also seems like a nice "catch all" but it is rather slow (compare it to Swords to Plowshares which can kill stuff T1 even if you are on the draw), really stress the Manabase because WW is not so easy for non creatures (Cavern greatly helps for Creatures if you keep it simply like: Eldrazi+Humans) and overall as a (slow sorcery) Spell can be countered and it is also taxed from your own Thalia. That is also the reason i not mentioned it vs TNN. If you still like Judgment i can see it as a replacement for 1 Mangara at my side, but keep the other one because he is good enough (Cavern/Displacer/Karakas).

Conclusion: Yes cutting lands is a big mistake and deckbuilding not so easy.

Fatal

09-23-2016, 08:45 AM

Agreed with Ghost - 25 lands is needed when you have such high mana curve AND 4 Mox diamonds. If you dont want to cut anything try 3 Moxes and add 25 land. Also lands configuration is high risky - 4 Karakas is too much trim to 3 and add more plains - they're needed to active SFM and SB cards. I'm also not a fun of Recruiter since it is kind of slow.

hofzge

09-23-2016, 09:45 AM

I finally recored all my Matchups with this deck.
You can find my data under the following link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PFz0pVFQT2dZNrDOlm0LUYqcMQ1K18vNXsfhEOZNWDo/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks for the extensive analysis!

My current "Mono White" Build (number 3 at data sheet):

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x City of Traitors
2x Karakas
5x Plains

Creature (23)
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2x Palace Jailer
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Reality Smasher
3x Phyrexian Revoker

Artifact (10)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (2)
2x Warping Wail

Sideboard (15)
2x Containment Priest
2x Disenchant
2x Mangara of Corondor
2x Orzhov Pontiff
2x Rest in Peace
2x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Swords to Plowshares

After having played alot with the Blade splicer Lodestone verson i think Palace Jailer makes this version much better and Reality Smasher is just a good clock and beefy body - I have switched to this:

4x Eldrazi Displacer
1x Mangara of Corondor
2x Palace Jailer
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Reality Smasher
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Dismember

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Karakas
4x Plains
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Containment Priest
2x Disenchant
1x Mangara of Corondor
2x Mindbreak Trap
2x Orzhov Pontiff
3x Rest in Peace
2x Spatial Contortion
1x Winter Orb

iostream

09-23-2016, 09:54 AM

MGB

09-23-2016, 01:34 PM

I haven't been following the thread that closely, and one thing that seems bizarre to me is everyone's enthusiasm for Palace Jailer. It seems slow, hard to cast and can easily backfire. Can someone with experience running the card elaborate a little more?

- He exiles creatures unconditionally, and the creatures stay exiled even if Palace Jailer leaves the battlefield
- He draws you a card a turn every turn until your opponent's creatures deal combat damage to you, EVEN IF PALACE JAILER LEAVES THE BATTLEFIELD
- If you have lots of creatures in your deck, you can easily mitigate the "drawback" of losing monarch by blocking his attackers, and you get to keep monarch indefinitely usually
- In an Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors deck the 2WW mana cost is really only like a 3 mana cost

ESG

09-24-2016, 03:47 AM

- He exiles creatures unconditionally, and the creatures stay exiled even if Palace Jailer leaves the battlefield
- He draws you a card a turn every turn until your opponent's creatures deal combat damage to you, EVEN IF PALACE JAILER LEAVES THE BATTLEFIELD
- If you have lots of creatures in your deck, you can easily mitigate the "drawback" of losing monarch by blocking his attackers, and you get to keep monarch indefinitely usually
- In an Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors deck the 2WW mana cost is really only like a 3 mana cost

This is a little misleading. They get the creature back if they become the monarch. Swarm decks or fliers can be problematic when trying to hold onto the monarch status. This deck doesn't have fliers, so you can't just assume you'll be able to block their guys. Jailer is best in matchups with few creatures, such as against Miracles and 12-Post. It's also strong vs. Sneak and Show due to the exiling ETB trigger. Playing Jailer requires a firm commitment to playing enough white sources. This is the card's largest drawback. This deck gets hit a lot with opposing Wastelands, so costing four mana (that you can't cheat a bit on with an Eldrazi Temple) is a disadvantage. The card is powerful, but it's less amazing than your description.

ChemicalBurns

09-24-2016, 06:15 AM

Split the finals of a 12-man Sanctioned tournament here in Melb Australia. List was:

Lands: (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
7 Plains
4 Wasteland

Creatures: (24)
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer

Non-Creature Spells: (11)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dismember
1 Warping Wail
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond

Sideboard: (15)
3 Rest in Peace
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Containment Priest
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Winter Orb
1 Disenchant
1 Batterskull

Round 1: vs. Infect

Game 1: I lose the die roll. He turn one Elfs, I go for Chalice and it gets Dazed (expected – I have Dismember in hand that I wanted to conserve anyway). I end up then positioning myself to Dismember his Elf while he’s tapped out (or his mana is constrained with Thalia and Wasteland, I cannot recall), but then he has a few Hierarchs which are actually looking dangerous after all my Tomb damage. Heretic Cathar and Seer lay down the beats and I Wasteland him into hell, but he establishes Agent that is poking me for 3 per turn. Eventually he has to chump on the penultimate turn with a Hierarch, leaving him to poke for only 2. He top decks Invigorate – but he has no more Forests to cast it with and dies.

+2 Stoneforge Mystic
+2 Spatial Contortion
+1 Disenchant
-2 Reality Smasher
-2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
-1 Eldrazi Displacer

Game 2: He turn one Elfs, I turn one Thalia him and then add a Seer to the board to clear his hand of a Berserk. He has a Seal of Primordium for the Stoneforge who just found a Jitte. The board stalls, I eventually Revoker the Seal and assemble Jitte to wrath him. Admittedly, he only had two Elves on board so I could’ve got more aggressive with THC and Seer that I had. Also, at one stage he has a Nexus going and I know he has Vines left in hand. He taps it to attack and I Disenchant it – he has two mana up for the Thalia-taxed Vines… But one of those is a Misty which will fetch a tapped Trop due to THC. So he sadly puts the Nexus in the bin. Feels good man. However, I can’t say this win was super-deserved, as my opponent flooded quite a bit.

1-0

Round 2: vs. UR Delver

Game 1: I lose die roll. I think a Chalice gets into play plus a Sanctum Prelate on two to prevent being blown out by Price of Progress. I also triple Thought-Knot Seer him. He has a Delver going but I either race it or Dismember it.

+2 Stoneforge Mystic
+2 Spatial Contortion
+1 Batterskull
-3 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Reality Smasher
-1 Palace Jailer

Game 2: He keeps a sketchy hand with basic Mountain and Lavamancer + blue spells. I shred his hand apart with Seer and Thalia, Heretic Cathar him. It was not close.

2-0

Round 3: vs. Sneak & Show

Game 1: I know what he’s on, he plays land, go. I go Temple, Diamond, Diamond THC, he Forces and then Sneak Attacks Emrakul. I rebuild by playing land, and then he passes, land again and then Revoker Sneak Attack. I draw THC off top and cast her too. He gets a Tarn into play that I Wasteland to ensure he has no red sources anyway. I play Thalia, GoT and then continue the beats until he dies.

+2 Containment Priest
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Disenchant
-2 Reality Smasher
-2 Dismember
-1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Game 2: He turn ones Griselbrand, but I put in Revoker off the Show and Tell naming it. He beats me down, and I’m not drawing Karakas. I missequence my lands too by not giving Jailer or Displacer as potential outs (ie. did not play my white source early enough).

Game 3: I have turn one Chalice into turn two Seer. He could’ve potentially jammed Show and Tell on turn two off a City but opts to wait (admittedly, I have a billion outs to Emrakul). I take the Show and Tell, leaving him with two Emrakuls and a Moon. He casts the Moon but I have basic Plains to cast a Winter Orb and Thalia, GoT and kill him from there.

3-0

Round 4: vs. BR Reanimator

We ID, but play some games for fun.

Game 1: He quickly assembles a Chancellor of the Annex I can’t do much about. However, I slowly start to assemble a lethal board state, and have him dead if he doesn’t leave back Chancellor. He sees a line at the last turn for Unmasking my Smasher and Reanimating it for the win.

+3 Rest in Peace
+2 Containment Priest
-2 Reality Smasher
-2 Dismember
-1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Game 2: I turn one RiP off a Diamond and then draw a second RiP. Beat him down with whatever else was in my hand before he could get much going.

Game 3: He has turn zero Chancellor so I jam a Revoker into it turn one off Tomb, getting it countered. I then turn two Chalice turning off quite a few cards. I start to assemble a board of Heretic Cathar and Displacer that’s quickly becoming lethal. He can only get Griselbrand into play off Exhume, bringing back my dead Revoker to name it. Just as planned. Displacer taps down the Demon while I continue to swing for the win.

3-0-1

Round 5: vs. BURG Delver

Game 1: I’m against fellow The Salt Mine podcaster Steve (ie. the bestest of Legacy bros). I turn one Chalice him which he Forces, and then he plays Delver. I have Seer to follow up off a Temple, taking something inconsequential. I draw second Seer off the top taking the Force he flips the Delver to. I race his Delver easily, despite Tomb damage, as he draws a Stifle.

+2 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Batterskull
-2 Reality Smasher
-1 Palace Jailer

I forgot I could trim Displacer and some other three drops for some RiPs, since his main threats are DRS and Goose.

Game 2: He has turn one Goose, I have Chalice on one. He follows with the excellent combo of Jitte (which he cannot equip). I follow up with some beaters which the Goose can’t break through, and his hand is mostly locked up. We exchange some Wastelands, I think I assemble my own Jitte and take over the game.

4-0-1

Top of standings, so I get to be on the play.

Semifinals: vs. UR Delver

Game 1: I keep a hand which you can only keep on the play – triple Plains, Chalice, Sanctum Prelate and Reality Smasher. Everything goes to plan. He has no turn one play, so I jam the Chalice as a turn two play, forcing him to Daze and Time Walk himself. He follows up with a Swiftspear that I imagine he just drew, I follow up with Prelate on one. He can’t cast anything, I draw Tomb and cast Smasher and take him to reality.

Sideboard same as round 2.

Game 2: I draw the nuts. I have Cavern, Mox Diamond and triple Thalia and Stoneforge (plus a Wasteland, I think). He turn one Delvers, which is a great start for him, I jam turn one Thalia off a Cavern. He flips Force to Delver and Bolts Thalia. I jam another Thalia and Waste his Volc. He plays Swiftspear and attacks. I play an uncounterable Stoneforge (thanks to him being tapped out), get Jitte, and play land for turn. Next turn I Stoneforge in Jitte, equip to Thalia and obliterate his Delver.

Finals: vs. Sneak & Show

Split because I we all want to go home.

So got $130 in credit, used this to contribute to my fourth Goyf purchase and went home happy.

The deck felt absurdly powerful in both unfair and fair matchups alike. Some points:

• The mana base also never let me down and felt as smooth as butter – I’m a big fan of cutting the Cities and just having more basics, as they rewarded me nicely.
• Prelate was very castable and was nice for redundant Chalice effects (more than two would be overkill though).
• Smasher was by far the most sideboarded out card, but I could see that just due to me mainly fighting combo. I do like only two though, as drawing two makes for some clunky draws when you don’t develop your mana.
• Jailer I never drew except in a practice match vs. UR, where he was fine. I think he’s pretty reasonable overall, but I’m disliking the curve pushing more and more upwards.
• 4 Displacers actually felt great, always relevant, especially in the fatty matchups.
• I really love the sideboard Stoneforges. Really lets you play the control role in post-sideboard games rather than need to race.
• Also enjoyed the Contortions despite never drawing them. They fitted perfectly as a great Delver-killing spell that lets you keep in Chalice.
• Traps were weak and I might trim them for more multi-purpose combo hate (Canonist, perhaps? Maybe more Wails?)

Anyway, seriously, play this deck people. It’s awesome.

nGoldenX

09-24-2016, 07:33 PM

I've been trying to make a deck like this work for a year but am confident that the the release of THC and TKS amond other things have made it viable. Here's my list:

Creatures
4 thalia, heretic cathar
4 lodestone golem
4 thought-knot seer
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 phyrexian revoker
Artifacts
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
3 tangle wire
3 trinisphere
Spells
3 warping wail
1 dismember
Lands
4 ancient tomb
3 eldrazi temple
2 crystal vein
3 karakas
2 riftstone portal
3 wasteland
8 plains

The weird looking Tangle Wires are there because its a sort of pet card of mine that I may be replacing with some number of Suppression Field or Eldrazi Displacer. I also don't know if i want to have 3 Warping Wails, and I feel like relegating some to the side for Jitte and some other stuff might be good, but I haven't tested it. Riftstone Portal is pretty sweet with Mox Diamond, mitigating damage from ancient tomb and mobilizing my lands, and without it it can help cast Thought-knot and Wail. I've also noticed a move away from Lodestone Golem. Is there a particular reason for this? I've quite been liking it.

hofzge

09-25-2016, 07:16 AM

I've also noticed a move away from Lodestone Golem. Is there a particular reason for this? I've quite been liking it.

Mostly as it is quite the nombo with all Eldrazi and Thalias - Your version plays more artifacts and less creatures so it is a better fit, but if you also play Palace Jailer, Sanctum Prelate and Eldrazi Displacer you will see that it is quite a hindrance to the rest of the deck.

Dice_Box

09-25-2016, 07:36 AM

I messed around with the Human/Eldrazi list this week before Legacy, but seeking how many people showed up with this or Colourless I dumped it for Lands. (I did not want to play the mirror all night) I like the Jailer a lot. I had a game where there was 9 creatures under the little crown I had on the table. I enjoyed that.

I like the shell, but I always want to move in a more controlling direction. (It is my habit) I feel though like the "Pick two creature types and stick with em'" idea is the best one. Granted, I also think I want another basic. (Up to 6).

The flaws I have found is that if board stall happens and you do not have displacer, you do not really have any other ways to break the deadlock. That card is near on vital for keeping your momentum going and if it slips, you are in for a rough time. Anyway. I liked testing it and hopefully I can play it for real this coming Legacy night.

ChemicalBurns

09-25-2016, 10:44 AM

The flaws I have found is that if board stall happens and you do not have displacer, you do not really have any other ways to break the deadlock. That card is near on vital for keeping your momentum going and if it slips, you are in for a rough time. Anyway. I liked testing it and hopefully I can play it for real this coming Legacy night.

I agree. In my above report it was just combo or Delver, so no board stalls were a worry, but vs. something like Shardless (or other BGx midrange, or D&T) we really do need something to either fly over or block fliers, lest we rely on Displacer (who usually is a Decay magnet anyway). I got massacred playing against Food Chain with the deck relatively recently, which is Decay, Agents + countless amounts of fliers in Griffins and Strix, really showing to me what the deck's weaknesses are. I wonder how we can remedy the problem of breaking through board stalls, difficulties with fliers etc. You're right that Displacer does heavy lifting (hence why I've found 4 necessary) and Jailer certainly helps... But it feels like there must be something... More. Idk. Anyone have a big flying bomb in mind? I've been thinking hard about Gisela recently, actually, as a SB card for the BUG matchups. Cuts through Strix like no problem, Decay-proof and has Karakas synergy (though this makes her terrible vs. D&T). WW is an issue... But Cavern on Horror at least overlaps with Revoker. >_< I might try this. Baneslayer could be something too.

pettdan

09-25-2016, 03:37 PM

I agree. In my above report it was just combo or Delver, so no board stalls were a worry, but vs. something like Shardless (or other BGx midrange, or D&T) we really do need something to either fly over or block fliers, lest we rely on Displacer (who usually is a Decay magnet anyway). I got massacred playing against Food Chain with the deck relatively recently, which is Decay, Agents + countless amounts of fliers in Griffins and Strix, really showing to me what the deck's weaknesses are. I wonder how we can remedy the problem of breaking through board stalls, difficulties with fliers etc. You're right that Displacer does heavy lifting (hence why I've found 4 necessary) and Jailer certainly helps... But it feels like there must be something... More. Idk. Anyone have a big flying bomb in mind? I've been thinking hard about Gisela recently, actually, as a SB card for the BUG matchups. Cuts through Strix like no problem, Decay-proof and has Karakas synergy (though this makes her terrible vs. D&T). WW is an issue... But Cavern on Horror at least overlaps with Revoker. >_< I might try this. Baneslayer could be something too.

Jitte on a first striker is pretty good for all of these situations, right? Sure it is easily decayed but they probably need to decay your Chalices too and they probably would like to decay all of your Thalias. I haven't really understood why Dismember is better than Jitte but it may (also) have to do with Abrupt Decay.

hofzge

09-25-2016, 06:07 PM

Jitte on a first striker is pretty good for all of these situations, right? Sure it is easily decayed but they probably need to decay your Chalices too and they probably would like to decay all of your Thalias. I haven't really understood why Dismember is better than Jitte but it may (also) have to do with Abrupt Decay.

It's not that easy - If you canplay and equip Jitte it is often way better, but this costs a lot of time and mana and is often spread over multiple turns, which makes your deck, that is realiant on disrupting the opponent not work during the time spent equipping.
Also it is specifically worde against Deathrite Shaman. That is why I use Dismember and not Jitte - You can kill a first turn Shaman without losing too much time and mana.

MD.Ghost

09-26-2016, 07:10 AM

This is a little misleading. They get the creature back if they become the monarch.

Against creature heavy decks it is also ok to add the 2x Containment Priest from Side for Game 2/3, you also get another Displacer Combo and Priest will prevent that exiled-Monarch-creatures reenter the Battlefield. Against stuff like TNN (and no other targets) you can also reflicker Palace Jailer after Combat to prevent that your opponent draws a card at his endstep ;)

• Also enjoyed the Contortions despite never drawing them. They fitted perfectly as a great Delver-killing spell that lets you keep in Chalice.

I prefere Swords here similiar to Aggro Loam (Chalice MD, Swords Side) if you have Chalice you are in a very good spot, any Jitte, Displacer or Palace Jailer will end Delver beats. Normally Chalice will be countered or destroyed and now Swords can be played. Since we have no cantrips is also not common to see (and stick) Chalice every game. Sometimes Swords will also be a first Turn Removal if you can' cast Chalice T1. In this case i don't want to waste Life (Dismember) for something like Deathrite Shaman, Delver, Mother or Goblin Lackey.

Jitte on a first striker is pretty good for all of these situations, right? Sure it is easily decayed but they probably need to decay your Chalices too and they probably would like to decay all of your Thalias. I haven't really understood why Dismember is better than Jitte but it may (also) have to do with Abrupt Decay.

It's not that easy - If you canplay and equip Jitte it is often way better, but this costs a lot of time and mana and is often spread over multiple turns, which makes your deck, that is realiant on disrupting the opponent not work during the time spent equipping.
Also it is specifically worde against Deathrite Shaman. That is why I use Dismember and not Jitte - You can kill a first turn Shaman without losing too much time and mana.

@stalled boards/Removal: I think this deck has a lot of stuff to prevent those situations. First it is all about taxing or preventing that your opponent play magic, if you can't stick stuff like early Chalice or Thalia(s) than you have: Displacer, Jailer and Removal mixed with some big Eldrazi Bodies. Jitte also helps thanks to ~8 First Strikers so i really like 2 copies (and no Stoneforge because while it is a tutor it is also really slow).

I dislike Dismember, because with Ancient Tomb you have enough self damage and i never liked to use Dismember for stuff like Deathrite or Strix with Eldrazi. This deck has different tools and can fight Strix & Co much better. For me Warping Wail feels better, it is really flexible and will also exile any common utility creature (Deathrite, Strix, Stoneforge) etc. - it is only useless vs big ones like Gofy or Mentor, but in this case you have Displacer, Jailer, Jitte (if you look at my main) and i also have 3 Swords to Plowshares (and 2 Mangara) at Side.

My MD Package of 2x Warping Wail, 2x Jitte, 2x Palace Jailer and 4x Displacer should be able to answer most creatures and (besides Warping Wail) you can reuse all of them over a game (big bonus point).

hofzge

09-30-2016, 05:24 AM

I played the following list at my LGS this week:

4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Reality Smasher
2x Sanctum Prelate
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Dismember

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Karakas
4x Plains
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Containment Priest
2x Disenchant
2x Mindbreak Trap
3x Rest in Peace
3x Spatial Contortion
2x Warping Wail
2x Winter Orb

2-0 Win against Miracles (Philip)
Thalia2 makes it extremely awkward for him to top around and then Revoker freezes the Top. Thalia1 joins the fray and he dies 1-0
Thalia1 turn 1 makes Ponder and Brainstorm costly and Smasher shortens the clock 2-0

2-0 against Storm (Pascal)
Turn1 I decide in favor of Thalia2 against Chalice on 1 - He plays a tapped land and I draw Thalia1 1-0
I can Mindbreak Trap a vital Ponder after double Gitaxian Probes as he has to resolve the Cabal Therapy after it. From then on he has no business and I Chalice 2-0

1-2 against Lands (Tobias)
I have the perfect Hand of turn 1 Thalia1 and double Wasteland and later also Thalia2 and Displacer 1-0
Early RIP can hinder Wasteland recursion, but Rishadan Port has me tapped out and I draw no lands beyond the first 3 in 10 turns 1-1
He plays Exploration into T2 Marit Lage on his turn around Wasteland as I played a Horizon Canopy so he can be rather sure i have no Karakas. I don't peel Karakas and am dead 1-2

2-0 against RUG Delver (Matej)
Thalia2 makes all his lands enter the battlefield in awkward ways and i waste his fetchland after which he gets to meet Sanctum Prelate 1-0
Thalia1 holds off a Mongoose and gets joined by 2 Thought-Knot Seers 2-0

I really like the deck, but the sideboard is still a mess. I played no Palace Jailers, as i did not own any yet but would surely add some.
For the future I would like some things:
1.) Something against Lands - The Deck is badly positioned against Maze of Ith, Rishadan Port,... Maybe a Tsabo's Web even tough it hurts our Karakas and Wastelands
2.) Some plan against Ensnaring Bridge
3.) Sideboard Paneswalkers
4.) Other Removal/CA in the form of Palace Jailer

With these things in mind I would play this:

4x Eldrazi Displacer
1x Palace Jailer
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Reality Smasher
2x Sanctum Prelate
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Dismember

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Karakas
4x Plains
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Containment Priest
1x Disenchant
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Palace Jailer
3x Rest in Peace
1x Spatial Contortion
1x Tsabo's Web
2x Warping Wail
1x Winter Orb

MD.Ghost

09-30-2016, 07:04 AM

I really like the deck, but the sideboard is still a mess. I played no Palace Jailers, as i did not own any yet but would surely add some.
For the future I would like some things:
1.) Something against Lands - The Deck is badly positioned against Maze of Ith, Rishadan Port,... Maybe a Tsabo's Web even tough it hurts our Karakas and Wastelands
2.) Some plan against Ensnaring Bridge
3.) Sideboard Paneswalkers
4.) Other Removal/CA in the form of Palace Jailer

Thanks for your report. Still a solid run, you won all matches 2:0 vs and 1:2 also seems winable.

1.) Lands: I don't find it so bad with Thalia 2.0, Wastelands, Chalice (you even can play Prelate!) Karakas and Displacer, even Palace Jailer can draw endless cards with Monarch - both decks can win with god hands and broken starts. If lands is a common matchup at your LGS and you wan't to add more i think Tsabo's Web is really nice (paired with Thalia 2.0) and is perfect vs Maze, Port etc., you can also use Magus of the Moon (4x Cavern, 4x Mox) as a tech vs lands and BGx or stuff like Blessed Alliance as additional removal vs the giant flyer.

2) Ensnaring Bridge: Hmm - you last build only have 1 Disenchant, that is not the right direction if you want to fight bridge ;) My build has 2 Disenchant and 2 Mangara at side, especially is very flexible and can combo with karakas or displacer.

3.) Paneswalkers: I still like Elspeth 1.0 because she impact the field instantly if you have a creature that can profit from +3+3 the turn. She also breaks stalls (TNN/Gofy etc.) with flying (nice Moat Miracle guy). For me Elspeth competes with Mangara, both are solutions vs Miracle or slow grindy decks with nasty cards.

4.) Palace Jailer is fine, it feels like a miniplaneswalker if you land him, exile a creature and draw a card the same turn (and following turns), on top he can beat/block and can be uncounterable. Really good and according to my opinion he should be at least a 2off in any 75 pile of cards we discuss here. As we already mentioned you can play a lot of Removal which includes flexible Spells like Warping Wail or Blessed Alliance.

pocari79

10-03-2016, 03:56 PM

Sisyphos

10-03-2016, 04:10 PM

iostream

10-03-2016, 07:56 PM

I wonder if Smuggler's Copter might be worth testing in this deck (and in Eldrazi in general). Like Jailer, it provides card selection, and flying creatures have always been something of an issue.

MD.Ghost

10-05-2016, 03:25 AM

I've only read the last couple of pages of the thread and was kind of surprised that there's been no talk of having Crucible of Worlds in the 75. Do you guys think that it's not needed or has it been tried and it's just not good enough? I would think that it would be great to board in for the midrange matchups.

Simply no space for a card that can be bonkers IF you have Wastelands but do more or less nothing if you need impact on the field. My first builds had 1 Crucible Main (because with Mox + Wastelands the idea isnt bad) but i cutted them for more beaters or usefull stuff like Jitte. I can see Crucible with the RW Build feat. Nahiri, because it will also work well if you discard lands with the Planeswalker and bring them back for free. Since Wastelands + Mox are already a nice support for Crucible adding Nahiri can be the last step to make Crucible good again especially because you have a "weaker" Manabase so it also acts as protection.

I wonder if Smuggler's Copter might be worth testing in this deck (and in Eldrazi in general). Like Jailer, it provides card selection, and flying creatures have always been something of an issue.

My problem is: The card do nothing on its own. My build has 23 creatures (most builds run more) so i only can cut non-creature spells like Jitte or Warping Wail - i feel that both cards are stronger since they add very unique effects to the deck. Copter is only good if the ground is stalled (which mean something went wrong) or you draw multiple Thalia(s), Moxen and can cylce them. Blocking Delver/Flyer might be nice but if you connect with jitte (same spot) you can also shot down stuff like Delver etc. I mentioned more or less the same at the Eldrazi discussion over Fleetwheel Cruiser while the card itself might be strong and can be usefull in some situations you always have to ask: is the card you cut really weaker?

Dice_Box

10-05-2016, 03:33 AM

Played in last night. I can't beat Mentor, can beat just about everything else though.

hofzge

10-05-2016, 03:48 AM

Changing what I mentioned last week I played the following list at my LGS:

4x Eldrazi Displacer
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Reality Smasher
2x Sanctum Prelate
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Dismember
2x Warping Wail

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Karakas
4x Plains
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
1x Containment Priest
2x Disenchant
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Mindbreak Trap
2x Palace Jailer
3x Rest in Peace
1x Spatial Contortion
2x Tsabo's Web
1x Umezawa's Jitte

1-2 loss against BR Reanimator (Matej)

2-1 Win against Miracles (Philip)

2-0 against Grixis Control (Oliver)

2-1 against Infect (Alexander)

It's quite close now - the main is set for me and I am still toying around with cards in the side, but it get's closer to a final version too.

MD.Ghost

10-05-2016, 03:57 AM

Played in last night. I can't beat Mentor, can beat just about everything else though.

List? Situation? For me Mentor itself isn't a problem with my build but sure if you get no Chalice or Thalia(s) stick than it is bad but in this case it doesn't matter if it is mentor or another win con. You wan't avoid that miracle can develop a board and abuse Top every turn, with Thalia(s), Revoker, Chalice, Wasteland you have a lot of tools to prevent relevant plays from your opponent. Mix in Jailer, Displacer and Jitte and you should be able to get rid of mentor or pressure them with TKS or Smasher. From my memory mentor itself only is a problem if you have a bad hand/draws and they can answer all of your stuff.

EDIT: Gratz hofzge it seems our maindeck only differs in 5 slots now which is really close a core list.

2 Prelate or 2 Jailer
2 Dismember or 2 Jitte
(and 1 Horizon Canopy or 1 Plains)

ChemicalBurns

10-05-2016, 08:56 AM

@hofzge, list looks super tight, love it. How have the Prelates been with the mana base? You're shorter on white sources than my City-less list. Also, I'm digging the Horizon Canopy (I always play one in D&T) but with Tomb/Dismember I've been a bit wary about it... Has the lifeloss been significant/detrimental in certain MUs? Also the Gideon in the SB, how has he performed? Have you ever desired Elspeth over him or has he been perfectly serviceable?

@Dice I think Mentor shouldn't be that much of a problem; as MD said, we have so many ways to cut off Top etc. that its really only when those pieces fall apart that them winning actually becomes an issue. I'm not sure if Mentor is the problem or it's just the power of Miracles itself.

Also everyone, I think I'll have a primer up soon outlining the core etc. that the deck is starting to be distilled into. It's basically summarising all the conclusions everyone has come to over the thread. I'll refine it and post it sometime in the week.

MD.Ghost

10-05-2016, 09:26 AM

Also everyone, I think I'll have a primer up soon outlining the core etc. that the deck is starting to be distilled into. It's basically summarising all the conclusions everyone has come to over the thread. I'll refine it and post it sometime in the week.

Top! If you need any help write a PM :cool:

hofzge

10-05-2016, 09:41 AM

Same here - PM if you need someone writing a part!
Thanks for the work and good thing we came to an amalgamated list: It seems everyone has similar core conclusions.

MGB

10-05-2016, 04:01 PM

You know what's good against Mentor?

Palace Jailer and/or Fairgrounds Warden...

hofzge

10-06-2016, 07:00 AM

Maybe it warrants discussion: Fairgrounds Warden has a really perfect mana cost and effect to play. Maybe I will replace some of the non-creature spells like the 2 Dismember and the 2 Warping Wails or soe of the Revokers in my list with 2-3 Wardens.

MD.Ghost

10-06-2016, 09:41 AM

You know what's good against Mentor?

Palace Jailer and/or Fairgrounds Warden...

Mentor is not the best example since against Miracle i wouldn't exile Mentor with Fairgrounds Warden only to eat a Terminus and my opponent get his Mentor back after he wiped the field :laugh: Palace Jailer is much better vs Miracle since they are low on creatures and can't interact well with Monarch. Sure the plan can still fail if they sneak in a flash creature but overall it should work well enough and Jailer is also good enough if you exile nothing and get only 1 extra card each turn.

@Fairgrounds Warden: Yes mana is very good but i think he will not work with Displacer (wording of the rules is different to stuff like Tidehollow Sculler...) You should watch out the additional rules for him like:
9/20/2016: If Fairgrounds Warden leaves the battlefield before its triggered ability resolves, the target creature won’t be exiled.
Which means he can be "countered" with removal on the stack - in common situations this will not matter, but against lands if you wan't to exile the nasty token and they respond with Decay to your Trigger the token will be safe!

I am a little bit disappointed here because we can't abuse the dwarf with Displacer so Palace Jailer or Mangara still seems better in most cases. The only upside to other removal spells are: it comes with a 1/3 body, get most creatures regardless if its a Deathrite, a Gofy or Eldrazi and can hold the line against most legacy creatures - but this is also true for First Strike Thalia(s) which also have some power since we already play an aggressiv beatdown deck.

Remember that you have to set Caverns on Soldier, since he is not a Human, which should be ok since Thalia(s) are also Soldier (and Jailer).

Sisyphos

10-09-2016, 02:39 AM

My accumulated results from five small local tournaments:

3-2-1 Miracles
5-0 Storm
2-1 DnT
2-0 NicFit
1-0 Infect
1-0 AggroLoam
1-0 Elves
0-1 Shardless

List has changed slightly over time, most recent one was:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Thalia, Heretic Catar
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Reality Smasher
2 Palace Jailer
2 Warping Wail
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
5 Plains

1 Disenchant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Warping Wail
2 Winter Orb
2 Containment Priest
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rest in Peace

Most of the differences from the stock list (Lodestone Golem, only 3 Displacer, no Dismember) are due to the local metagame. Lots of Storm and Miracles, very little Eldrazi or Delver.

Still not quite sure about the optimal manabase. Have tried 26 lands + 3 Diamonds and 25 lands + 4 Diamonds. 4 Diamonds left me stuck with useless copies several times, but adding the third City as the 26th land has had the same problem. Maybe it's just an inconvenience that has to be accepted to guarantee the consistent fast starts, but I'm thinking of trying a list with a 26/3-setup that uses either a utility land like Horizon Canopy (nice idea, Hofzge!), Mishra's Factory or a sixth Plains to help with the double white for Elspeth as the 26th land.

hofzge

10-09-2016, 04:18 PM

iostream

10-10-2016, 12:54 PM

ZEROorDIE

10-10-2016, 02:07 PM

if youre looking at sorcery speed answers, have you considered oblivion ring? 1 more mana, but answers a lot more than just creatures.

I may test out 2x containment priest, I've been messing around a bunch with various creatures in that slot. was planning on testing 2x porcelain legionnaire since it can be a 3/1 first strike for 2 mana, csn be cast with cavern on soldier, and holds a Jitte well, but it seemed subpar as it has no other effect on the battled field.

Fatal

10-10-2016, 02:41 PM

Porcelain Legionnaire is just bad - with sol lands around you mostly have 1 / 3 mana, so use Blade Splicer - has better body, it's human, and work good with Displacer.

ChemicalBurns

10-10-2016, 07:58 PM

I top 8'd an EE Satellite two days ago with this deck. Went 3-0-2 in the Swiss, beating Elves, RG Lands, and BR Reanimator. Lost to Grixis Delver in t8, which I believe was due to some misplays and bad sideboarding on my part.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
7 Plains
4 Wasteland

2 Containment Priest
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Palace Jailer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Reality Smasher
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard
1 Batterskull
1 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I've been pretty unhappy with Dismember and Jitte in testing. They seemed better suited to the Colorless deck than this one. Dismember's drawback is basically counterproductive against all the tempo decks in the format (Dismembering a YP or a Delver feels horrible), it's dead versus combo, and we have Displacers to get around larger creatures, so it doesn't seem as necessary as it is in Colorless Eldrazi. Jitte costs a lot of mana to get started, which we have less of than Colorless Eldrazi, and often can't get counters unless we suicide a threat, which is often unacceptable if they are a key tax piece. Again, better in Colorless given that they have random Reshapers, Endless Ones, and other oversized/expendable targets.

Palace Jailer replaces Dismember and Copter replaces Jitte, and in those roles, both were quite good. Monarch is a lot easier to hold on to than I thought; sorry for being a disbeliever earlier in the thread. Often times, your opponent can regain monarch only by attacking with everything, which leads them to lose a ton of cards in blocks and lose Monarch on the backswing. Copter allows you to break through ground stalls, which I think are a fact of life with this deck, and it keeps the gas flowing, which is important when your taxes don't put them away in the first few turns. It's also one of the best T1 plays when you don't have Chalice since it gives your other hatebears a kind of "haste" every turn.

I also maindecked Containment Priests just because I wanted more creatures, and obviously given the slate of decks I faced, it was good, but for sure would be sided out a bunch. In my testing, threatening the combo with Displacer often forces the action in game 1, so it's not unreasonable, and you really blow people out if it happens to be the right matchup for it. Note that what you side in for Priest varies wildly from matchup to matchup, so starting any of those over Priest gives you more potentially dead cards in g1, whereas a 2/2 flash bear is at least mediocre in most matchups.

Less combo hate in the sideboard than most people - idk why you all are playing Mindbreak Traps and stuff. We are already crushing those decks. Similar remarks for Sanctum Prelate. I don't think we need even more ways to tax noncreature spells.

Moving forward, I'd like to try a Declaration in Stone over one of the Swords. I think it would be nice to have one more removal spell you can side in against fair decks which are soft to Chalice (e.g. Delver), and it is kind-of-sort-of another way to answer YP tokens.

List looks pretty nice; I'm actually really keen to hear further testing of Copter because I've been brewing stupid shells with it and indeed, sometimes all you want is a turn one Copter to fix your hand and get the gas flowing. For creature-heavy Sol Land decks it feels like turn one Copter is sort of... A cantrip that attacks? o.O It also has some stupid synergies with Crucible of Worlds too. It might be the answer we are looking for in terms of an evasive threat.

I'd imagine having Priest main would certainly help with the lack of Dismembers etc. (it also smooths out the curve too, I really do like your point about a flash bear just being fine a lot of the time), as your Displacers are now hard removal. I agree that Dismember can be a huge hindrance when killing small things, but sometimes you just need something to get a Goyf out of the way. I guess it's really meta-dependant on how many Goyfs are running around - when you're behind on board Displacer or Jailer can often be a little too late, which Dismember allows you to retain tempo by often allowing a single turn of kill a Goyf + play a creature. I'm still a fan of it, but you're certainly right that it's dead vs. combo and Wail will do about the same job in metagames with only small creatures around.

Glad to hear the Jailer has performed admirably for you - I've been in a similar boat with continued skepticism, but the results are speaking for themselves.

I'd be wary of thinking of Prelate as "just" as card for combo matchups. It does so much more in my mind, and it being a flexible disruption piece really complements the eight Thalia plan in my mind.

I guess the lack of Dismembers has well-informed your sideboard, as five extra pieces of removal is certainly... A lot... I'd probably look towards trimming down this suite of removal to at best three cards, as it's a huge package to manage otherwise. Though certainly if it works for your sideboard mapping, fair enough. I think Declaration indeed. may give you the best of both worlds in terms of Plows flexibility but also the lack of dissynergy with Chalice that Contortion provides.

How have you found the SFM sideboard? I've been enjoying it a lot so far, but sometimes I wonder if the package could just be minimised to 2 Jitte's to free up sideboard space (though I know you've been unimpressed with Jitte).

Nonetheless, excellent job with the deck, congrats!

pocari79

10-11-2016, 11:54 AM

Had two legacy tournaments over this past weekend and played this list both days:

6 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Reality Smasher
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard:
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Winter Orb
1 Palace Jailer
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

The only change I made for Sunday was -1 Elspeth, +1 Mangara

Tournament on Saturday at Hairy T North had 16 players, seemed like a ok sized tournament to take a list I've never played before.

Round 1: Harrison on High Tide
Game 1: I lose because I draw zero disruption at all, all I had were Warping Wails for his Time Spirals but he has the Force for them.
Sideboarding: -1 Palace Jailer, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Reality Smasher, +3 Rest in Peace. This felt really bad that there's nothing much for the combo matchup but I guess I'm supposed to rely on the maindeck to screw combo?
Game 2: I manage to resolve a Chalice on 1 and a Sanctum Prelate on 2 and just run him over before he gets to 6 lands.
Game 3: I have a slow start and I see that he's boarded into Thing in the Ice?? Damn, didn't expect that. Funnily enough, my Displacer starts doing work since I blink his Thing in the Ice before it gets to transform and then I end up getting a soft lock with Displacer + Thought-Knot when I am able to activate Displacer three times in a turn.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2: Raymond on Colorless Eldrazi
I don't really recall too much, but Displacer really showed it's strength here and I didn't expect this matchup to be that lopsided in our favor. One stupid thing that happened in game 2 was that he cast an All Is Dust and I put my Displacer in the yard and then two turns later realized that it has Devoid.... sad times, but still won.

2-0 (4-1)

Round 3: Dave on MUD w/Thought-Knot Seers
Game 1: He casts a turn 1 3sphere. I have no good turn 1 play and have a bunch of lands in hand so I decide to wasteland him and he ends up only playing one more land the entire game.
Sideboarding: -4 Chalice of the Void, -2 Sanctum Prelate, +3 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Disenchant, +1 Palace Jailer.
Game 2: He explodes out of the gate and he ends up getting a monolith, key, thran dynamo and wurmcoil in play on turn 2 and there's really nothing much I can do there. I try to slow him down with displacer but then he ends up getting Forgemaster in play and then tutors for Spine of Ish Shah and Blightsteel. Well, at least I got a lot more info.
Game 3: I manage to disrupt him with Thalia 1.0 and when he managed to cast his first threat, I Palace Jailer it away and then cast Reality Smasher the next turn. He did have Ugin mana and Ugin in hand but that can't kill Smasher. Go colorless creatures!

I realize after this match that I should be boarding in Containment Priest against these midrange matches because if I ever get Priest + Displacer going, I'll get such an overwhelming advantage.

3-0 (6-2)

Round 4: Steven on ???
We ID!!

Top 8 - Ethan (Turbo Depths)
Game 1: I have an active Displacer and just smash in with Eldrazi and his two Dark Confidants just can't block.
Sideboarding: -1 Sanctum Prelate, -2 Reality Smasher, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, +3 Rest in Peace, +1 Palace Jailer
Game 2: He goes turn 1 Torpor Orb and I'm like ?? Then turn 2 Phyrexian Dreadnaught. All righty then!! Time to go to Game 3.
Sideboarding: -3 Rest in Peace, +2 Disenchant, +3 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Thalia 1.0, -1 Thalia 2.0.
Game 3: I think there was a misplay that I made for sure but looking back on it I think it was the right line of play. He Thoughtseizes me on turn 1 taking a displacer and then he ends up making a turn 3 Marit Lage. On my Turn 4, I play a Palace Jailer with Cavern on Humans since he might be playing forces as he's playing blue and he ends up playing Not of This World to counter the Jailer's come into play ability. Oh well.

3-1-1

I ended up not being that upset at the loss as Turbo Depths shouldn't be that relevant of a deck but I could have played game 3 a bit differently so I'll need to keep that in mind.

Tournament on Sunday was at Face to Face Games Toronto and there was 25 players.

Round 1: Jason on Miracles
Game 1: I resolve a turn 1 Chalice on 1 and then he just never played a spell for the rest of the game. All right, I'll take it.
Sideboarding: -2 Mox Diamond, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Thalia 1.0, -1 Thalia 2.0, +2 Disenchant, +1 Winter Orb, +1 Mangara, +1 Palace Jailer
Game 2: Turn 1 Chalice gets forced but he has no top so I'm ok. I end up resolving a Thought-Knot and a Displacer and when he tries to miracle an Entreat, I Displace my own Thought-Knot with miracle trigger on the stack and see that he drew a Moat but I have a Disenchant in my hand so I end up taking the Entreat, he casts the Moat with no counter magic in hand and I just Disenchant it on my turn and kill him.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2: David on Miracles
Game 1: I resolve a turn 1 Chalice on 1 and doesn't play a spell for the rest of the game. hmm, that seems familiar!!
Same sideboarding as above.
Game 2: I resolve another turn 1 Chalice on 1 and just cast a Thalia 2.0 and Thought-Knot holding everything else back in case of a Terminus. He tapped out for a Clique on my turn targeting himself and I just ended up casting Winter Orb and that was pretty much it.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3: Cal on Colorless Eldrazi
Game 1: I wasteland him to slow him down a bit while powering out my three drops with Mox Diamond and Sol Lands and a Displacer just ruins his day.
Sideboarding: -4 Chalice of the Void, -2 Thalia 1.0, -2 Warping Wail, +3 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Disenchant, +2 Containment Priest, +1 Palace Jailer
Game 2: This game we kind of stall as I resolve a Thalia 2.0 and he has a Matter Reshaper and I'm not sure if i'm supposed to attack? I don't though and he ends up playing a metamorph copying Thalia 2.0 and then I play Palace Jailer exiling the metamorph and drawing cards. He then kills the Jailer expecting to get the metamorph back but it does not come back and then I end up getting the Displacer + Containment Priest soft lock on him and that was it.

3-0 (6-0)

Round 4: Richard on 4C Delver.
We ID!!

3-0-1

Round 5: Lisa on Aluren

We ID!!

3-0-2

Top 8 - Caden on Burn
Game 1: I resolve a chalice on 1 early but take tons of damage from Goblin Guide. The board state ends up being a Goblin Guide, Eidolon on his end and I have a chalice on 1, 2, Thalia 1.0 and Phyrexian revoker and I end up being at 1 life. We end up playing draw go for like 6 turns and I just end up drawing a Reality Smasher and winning with it before he draws his 2 remaining Rift Bolts and 4 Fireblasts. Stole that one!
Sideboarding: -1 Thalia 2.0, -1 Palace Jailer, +2 Disenchant.
Game 2: He resolves a turn 1 Lavamancer and I get down a quick chalice on 1 and 2 but then just end up losing to lavamancer since I draw no threats.
Game 3: I resolved a Chalice on 1 on turn 2, Reality Smasher on turn 3. He ends up throwing a bunch of burn spells at the Reality Smasher. I drop down a Jitte the following turn, leaving a Wasteland up and he ends up Price of Progressing me. I decide to Waste my own Temple to take just 2 damage and then on my turn I draw a White source to cast a Sanctum Prelate for 2 and that pretty much just sealed the game.

4-0-2 (8-1)

Top 4 - Lisa on Aluren
Game 1: I have a real abnormal hand with two Sanctums and a Displacer. I resolve a turn 1 Displacer, turn 2 Sanctum Prelate on 4 cause she could have cast Aluren on turn 3 and then another Prelate on 2 and she just concedes. Wow, stole that one as I feel that this is such a crazy bad matchup.
Game 2: I have some removal but she just ends up being this insane value midrange deck with Revokers naming my Displacers and the playing Bloodbraid elfs and Garruk Relentless. She still has the combo kill and I let her do one loop just to show me she can do it.
Sideboarding: -4 Thalia 1.0, -4 Chalice of the Void, -1 Thalia 2.0, -2 Reality Smasher, +3 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Disenchant, +1 Palace Jailer, +1 Mangara of Corondor, +2 Orzhov Pontiff, +2 Containment Priest
Game 3: This game was kind of weird. I drew no acceleration, just drew all my basics and caverns and I did end up having the Displacer + Containment Priest lock exiling 3 creatures but she cast a Pernicious Deed and after the Deed blew up, I just drew 1 Thought-Knot for action and flooded out. Oh well.

4-1-2 (9-3)

I think the only flex slots left in the maindeck for me are the two Warping Wails and in the sideboard, I'm not too sure if the Winter Orb and Mangara are necessary. Maybe it should be something like 1 Council's Judgment and 1 Eidolon of Rhetoric but I'm really not too sure.

I really didn't realize that Displacers were so important in this deck and even my opponents were really surprised at how effective it is.

The Palace Jailers were just amazing for me, my opponent pretty much died a turn or two after it resolves since it just gives so much advantage. This deck feels like it's the front runner for me for Legacy Champs later this month.

ZEROorDIE

10-11-2016, 12:31 PM

pocari79

10-11-2016, 02:23 PM

thanks for the detailed report. we're you happy with the one-of city of Traitors? did 4 mox diamond ever feel like too many? and lastly were you happy with only 2 reality smasher

I've held back posting any reports here because I keep getting at least 1 bye per 4 round event at my lgs so most of my results are 2-1 with at least one very fringe deck (legacy lantern anyone?)

also spent 30mins digging through the bulk boxes last night trying to find a couple copies of palace jailer with no luck. getting to be time for a tcg order anyways.

I like having the 1 City of Traitors. I didn't want to run the risk of having multiple City of Traitors in the opening hand. I really wanted to avoid having to play a City and then playing another City the next turn since that doesn't push your mana ahead in the long term.

I love having 4 Mox Diamonds, getting that W source super early means you can cast all of your Thalias and Displacer on turn 1 and also gives you more chances to cast a Chalice on 1. I think it's even more key in sideboard games since turn 1 mox diamond allows you to cast RiP on turn 1.

About Reality Smasher, I think that I like having 2. Most of my games, I didn't get above 4 mana so having extra Reality Smashers cluttering your hand would be quite bad and sometimes having a 5/5 w/haste is the knockout punch you need. I could see situations where both get cut from the maindeck for something that gives more disruption but right now i'm not quite sure what that would be.

iostream

10-11-2016, 10:17 PM

I'd be wary of thinking of Prelate as "just" as card for combo matchups. It does so much more in my mind, and it being a flexible disruption piece really complements the eight Thalia plan in my mind.

I guess the lack of Dismembers has well-informed your sideboard, as five extra pieces of removal is certainly... A lot... I'd probably look towards trimming down this suite of removal to at best three cards, as it's a huge package to manage otherwise. Though certainly if it works for your sideboard mapping, fair enough. I think Declaration indeed. may give you the best of both worlds in terms of Plows flexibility but also the lack of dissynergy with Chalice that Contortion provides.

How have you found the SFM sideboard? I've been enjoying it a lot so far, but sometimes I wonder if the package could just be minimised to 2 Jitte's to free up sideboard space (though I know you've been unimpressed with Jitte).

I really wanted to like Sanctum Prelate, but it just hasn't felt good enough in my testing. Versus unfair decks, it can't be cast ahead of curve without exactly Mox Diamond, so it's often a little late. Against the fair decks, it doesn't counter creature spells, and the body is unimpressive. Therefore, when it's bad (e.g. against Colorless Eldrazi or D+T), it's really awful, and when it can potentially be good (e.g. Delver), it sometimes just doesn't line up if they have a threat-heavy draw. Another thing is that it's easy to overload on non-creature hate. People used to play maindeck Thorns and Trinispheres in the very early days of Colorless Eldrazi until they realized it wasn't really needed, as Chalice + TKS was enough. I feel something similar is true here. We have 8 more amazing cards than Colorless Eldrazi to tax the stack - the Thalias. I doubt we need more on top of that, and should spend those slots on other priorities.

Five removal spells is indeed heavier than usual, but you seldom bring them all in. The Swords are there mainly for other Chalice decks, D+T, and so on, and the Spatial Contortions are really for Delver. If there were a card that could function both as an effective card against Delver (under Chalice) as well as hate against other strategies, I might feel better about cutting the Contortions, but as is, I can't think of such a card. On the other hand, it seems possible to me that some other matchups are being even more neglected. I've often wanted to find room for some Armageddon as an anti-Miracles card, as this deck is definitely much weaker against Miracles than standard Eldrazi.

SFM still needs more testing. It seems fine, but I have no strong opinion.

snip
How did you feel about Orzhov Pontiff and Elspeth?

ChemicalBurns

10-12-2016, 12:49 AM

Five removal spells is indeed heavier than usual, but you seldom bring them all in. The Swords are there mainly for other Chalice decks, D+T, and so on, and the Spatial Contortions are really for Delver. If there were a card that could function both as an effective card against Delver (under Chalice) as well as hate against other strategies, I might feel better about cutting the Contortions, but as is, I can't think of such a card. On the other hand, it seems possible to me that some other matchups are being even more neglected. I've often wanted to find room for some Armageddon as an anti-Miracles card, as this deck is definitely much weaker against Miracles than standard Eldrazi.

I think the card you are thinking of is Declaration in Stone. Kills Goyfs easy-peezy, and also has huge upside vs. Pyromancer. Worth thinking about, at least to save you some sideboard equity. Sorcery speed is kind of sucky though, as is its mana cost.

hofzge

10-12-2016, 03:56 AM

Snip

I've been pretty unhappy with Dismember and Jitte in testing. They seemed better suited to the Colorless deck than this one. Dismember's drawback is basically counterproductive against all the tempo decks in the format (Dismembering a YP or a Delver feels horrible), it's dead versus combo, and we have Displacers to get around larger creatures, so it doesn't seem as necessary as it is in Colorless Eldrazi. Jitte costs a lot of mana to get started, which we have less of than Colorless Eldrazi, and often can't get counters unless we suicide a threat, which is often unacceptable if they are a key tax piece. Again, better in Colorless given that they have random Reshapers, Endless Ones, and other oversized/expendable targets.

Palace Jailer replaces Dismember and Copter replaces Jitte, and in those roles, both were quite good. Monarch is a lot easier to hold on to than I thought; sorry for being a disbeliever earlier in the thread. Often times, your opponent can regain monarch only by attacking with everything, which leads them to lose a ton of cards in blocks and lose Monarch on the backswing. Copter allows you to break through ground stalls, which I think are a fact of life with this deck, and it keeps the gas flowing, which is important when your taxes don't put them away in the first few turns. It's also one of the best T1 plays when you don't have Chalice since it gives your other hatebears a kind of "haste" every turn.

I also maindecked Containment Priests just because I wanted more creatures, and obviously given the slate of decks I faced, it was good, but for sure would be sided out a bunch. In my testing, threatening the combo with Displacer often forces the action in game 1, so it's not unreasonable, and you really blow people out if it happens to be the right matchup for it. Note that what you side in for Priest varies wildly from matchup to matchup, so starting any of those over Priest gives you more potentially dead cards in g1, whereas a 2/2 flash bear is at least mediocre in most matchups.

Less combo hate in the sideboard than most people - idk why you all are playing Mindbreak Traps and stuff. We are already crushing those decks. Similar remarks for Sanctum Prelate. I don't think we need even more ways to tax noncreature spells.

Moving forward, I'd like to try a Declaration in Stone over one of the Swords. I think it would be nice to have one more removal spell you can side in against fair decks which are soft to Chalice (e.g. Delver), and it is kind-of-sort-of another way to answer YP tokens.

I like your suggestions and your deck list, but i am still a favorite for Dismember.

How about meeting on the middle ground ;)

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Karakas
4x Plains
4x Wasteland

Instant (3)
1x Dismember
2x Warping Wail

Creature (22)
4x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Reality Smasher
2x Sanctum Prelate
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer

Artifact (10)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Smuggler's Copter

Sideboard (15)
2x Declaration in Stone
1x Disenchant
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Rest in Peace
2x Tsabo's Web
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x War Priest of Thune

The Copter is perfect for some needed filtering, blocking flyers, giving creatures haste, having perfect Sol land cost, ...

I really wanted to like Sanctum Prelate, but it just hasn't felt good enough in my testing. Versus unfair decks, it can't be cast ahead of curve without exactly Mox Diamond, so it's often a little late. Against the fair decks, it doesn't counter creature spells, and the body is unimpressive. Therefore, when it's bad (e.g. against Colorless Eldrazi or D+T), it's really awful, and when it can potentially be good (e.g. Delver), it sometimes just doesn't line up if they have a threat-heavy draw. Another thing is that it's easy to overload on non-creature hate. People used to play maindeck Thorns and Trinispheres in the very early days of Colorless Eldrazi until they realized it wasn't really needed, as Chalice + TKS was enough. I feel something similar is true here. We have 8 more amazing cards than Colorless Eldrazi to tax the stack - the Thalias. I doubt we need more on top of that, and should spend those slots on other priorities.

I really do like the Preleate and it is not at all just good versus combo - against Miracles on 1 or 6 it improves the matchup, against something like Delver a Prelate on 1 really hinders their ability to function - it is no hard lock, but what in life is - It is a chalice that can attack!
Also a chalice on a number higher than 1 is worth gold against almost all combo decks.

I think the card you are thinking of is Declaration in Stone. Kills Goyfs easy-peezy, and also has huge upside vs. Pyromancer. Worth thinking about, at least to save you some sideboard equity. Sorcery speed is kind of sucky though, as is its mana cost.

I like Declaration as a 2of instead of the "better" Swords - too many times during my 4color loam time have i drawn Swords post board and stared at my own Chalice. Also the Declaration solves problems like Empty the Warrens and the aforementioned Pyromancer tokens.

MD.Ghost

10-12-2016, 04:12 AM

@Removal: I adjusted my current SB to: 2x Swords to.. and 2x Blessed Alliance and 1x Mangara (former build run: 3 StP, 2 Mangara) i still feel that Swords can be very good in some metagames but i faced a situation vs Grixis Delver, stick Chalice and got beaten by big Zombie-Fish while holding swords in hand... overall Swords shines vs Eldrazi, Aggro Loam, all BGx Decks, MUD and DnT etc. overall vs all creature decks that aren't stopped from Chalice at 1. While sticking a Chalice should be fine in Delver matchups it can be tricky if you face YP, Gofy, Angler. Some situations maybe solved with Jailer/Displacer but since we run no Cantrips we don't always get the right card.

Blessed Alliance is a card that can be powered up in mid-lategame situations and is capable to turn the tide in our favour. I think i would play this card over any Spatial Contortions - Spartial can be powered out T1 with a solland but can only kill most utility creatures and in this case i feel Warping Wail should be stronger besides it can't kill a flipped delver.

Declaration in Stone can be good if you have many Gofy, Eldrazi (=bigger targets) in your meta and like to have a removal that can be >2:1 if you are lucky, especially opponents with BGx decks like to slam as much Gofys as possible on the field against our deck which can lead to a blowout if you have the Declaration in hand. Sadly card is only sorcery speed.

@Quote: "How did you feel about Orzhov Pontiff and Elspeth?" Since i am an advocate of Pontiff since the begining i feel he is a meta card (see removal above) you can run fine without it. He shines vs DnT, Elves, YP, Infect and TNN(Blade Decks) as a backup removal (not common to get him online turn 2 - see Prelate discussion) most of the time he is a >2:1 in terms of card advantage and i like that he can be uncounterable against blue decks. The other big point is, that most list without him (and without Declaration in stone) have no Sweeper and trade 1:1 until they stick Displacer(+Jailer) that can be devasting against some decks that swarm you and also against combo if ANT goes for Empty or you face a rare Belcher player that also tend to slam Goblin tokens on the field. I would always board Pontiff vs ANT too, regardless of the good amount of common hate pieces we run.

Elspeth 1.0 is my switch with Mangara so i run 0-2 depending on the build. If she sticks she is very good (like Mangara) and it simply is a card vs Miracle and other heavy control builds. There are pros and cons either way, both: Mangara and Elspeth are playable and good if you like flexible cards and answers to lockout pieces like Moat.

@Build: Fatal destroyed my build lately on cockatrice, while i still think i am well prepared for other decks my pile of cards aren't well equiped against the mirror (which i never played before) cards like Stoneforge, Blade Splicer etc.

@pocari79: Thanks for your detailed tournament report! Nice results!

@Sanctum Prelate: I also feel that this guy is "overkill" in most cases and kind of "dead" if you face a creature heavy deck since 2/2 (especially without Equipment) can't do anything on the field against most non combo decks, even against miracle you can't risk to run into a snapcaster mage unless you have Thalia 2.0 or Displacer online. I run a pair of Thorn at Side which worked well togehter with Thalia(s) and are castable with Sollands T1. I always struggled to include Prelate as a valid option, but other players have success with the card and in the right situation/matchup it can work well.

EDIT (hofzge post): @Smuggler's Copter i like that someone test the new toy. What i like at Copter is a) filtering (best with Thalia(s) and moxen) and that you can slam it down T1 with Solland (like Revoker and Chalice) and attack T2 if you follow up with a creature c) flying over a stalled board - but i dislike that you maybe tap your blocker which can lead to a counterattack and that Copter is (especially as a 2off) not a strong topdeck if the game goes on compared to Jitte which is able to turn the tide instantly if you are able to draw+play+equip. So i am not sold on Copter yet but i can see that it can work and shorten the clock if played early enough.

hofzge

10-12-2016, 07:09 AM

EDIT (hofzge post): @Smuggler's Copter i like that someone test the new toy. What i like at Copter is a) filtering (best with Thalia(s) and moxen) and that you can slam it down T1 with Solland (like Revoker and Chalice) and attack T2 if you follow up with a creature c) flying over a stalled board

Well i think the main advantage is not clock, even tough that is great, but the filtering of cards. This deck is very start hand dependent like any stompy deck and as the copter comes down T1 and attacks T2 it helps a lot to make you draw the right cards.

- but i dislike that you maybe tap your blocker which can lead to a counterattack

You can also loot if you block and you can also do that T2 if needed. That's what I like - a looting flying blocker big enough to be a clock and block Delver if needed

and that Copter is (especially as a 2off) not a strong topdeck if the game goes on compared to Jitte which is able to turn the tide instantly if you are able to draw+play+equip. So i am not sold on Copter yet but i can see that it can work and shorten the clock if played early enough.

Again: you can block and already loot and then you have an attacker that will improve the quality of cards that you draw. I think that a deck with roughly 50% mana (25 lands, 4 mox) has good use for that.

pocari79

10-12-2016, 08:20 AM

How did you feel about Orzhov Pontiff and Elspeth?

I've never actually drawn either Pontiff or Elspeth in any of my games but I like having Pontiffs in the board since I dislike losing to something random like a True-Name Nemesis or token generating decks that can go wide and chump block all day long.

I also feel that Elspeth isn't really needed, we're already playing so many hard to remove threats and I'd rather have another answer type card in the sideboard.

ChemicalBurns

10-12-2016, 08:32 AM

I like your suggestions and your deck list, but i am still a favorite for Dismember.

How about meeting on the middle ground ;)

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Karakas
4x Plains
4x Wasteland

Instant (3)
1x Dismember
2x Warping Wail

Creature (22)
4x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Reality Smasher
2x Sanctum Prelate
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer

Artifact (10)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Smuggler's Copter

Sideboard (15)
2x Declaration in Stone
1x Disenchant
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Rest in Peace
2x Tsabo's Web
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x War Priest of Thune

The Copter is perfect for some needed filtering, blocking flyers, giving creatures haste, having perfect Sol land cost, ...

I really do like the Preleate and it is not at all just good versus combo - against Miracles on 1 or 6 it improves the matchup, against something like Delver a Prelate on 1 really hinders their ability to function - it is no hard lock, but what in life is - It is a chalice that can attack!
Also a chalice on a number higher than 1 is worth gold against almost all combo decks.

I like Declaration as a 2of instead of the "better" Swords - too many times during my 4color loam time have i drawn Swords post board and stared at my own Chalice. Also the Declaration solves problems like Empty the Warrens and the aforementioned Pyromancer tokens.

Your main looks very close to what I might be playing moving forward. I'd probably go:

-1 City
-1 Diamond
+1 Revoker
+1 Plains

But otherwise looks tight.

I really want to try Copter, though as MD said, it's a pretty atrocious topdeck and can also make blocking harder for us. Testing will tell whether it's good enough. Something to smooth out the typically high-variance Stompy draws is pretty cool. Also, Copter is cool with manlands too, and I'd love to find room for two Factories. Probably would have to cut Cities entirely and the Canopy.

Also, interesting choice with the Leyline - I kind of like it - especially since it's very hardcastable and a bit more flexible than Trap (which I've liked, at least in my meta, a fair bit) in some ways.

And yes, I think Declaration will do a lot moving forward. Feels like a nice blend of Plows/Contortion/Pontiff, in some ways. That being said, I can certainly see the merit in Blessed Alliance moving forward - flexibility is awesome and True-Name is still a pain for us.

iostream

10-12-2016, 09:47 AM

Some comments about removal options (that I haven't already commented about):

Blessed Alliance: I've actually tried this before, and it was pretty bad. The most popular Delver deck plays Young Pyromancer now, so it often gets neutralized by elemental tokens, and all the other creature decks run random other weenies alongside the targets you actually care about. It's pretty miserable getting clocked by a Serra Avenger or a Goyf and not being able to do anything about it because your opponent is also attacking with a Revoker or a Baleful Strix or something. It's really only good against exactly TNN, and TNN is really rare these days, at least where I play. Too narrow, in my opinion, unless Stoneblade is very popular in your meta.

Spatial Contortion: Most of the creatures we want to kill are actually small. There are, in my mind exactly three commonly played non-Eldrazi creatures that Spatial Contortion can't kill: Goyf, Angler, and Knight of the Reliquary. That's it. Contortion kills everything else at instant speed underneath Chalice. I think this card is somewhat underrated. That being said, we still need some way to interact with those three creatures.

Declaration in Stone: I mentioned this at the end of my report last page, and I'd love to try it out. But at the end of the day, it's a 2cmc sorcery, so I'm not optimistic that it will actually be good. The thing that it has going for it is that the matchups where you want Swords (i.e. creature matchups where you side out chalice) are generally pretty slow and grindy. That makes the cost and speed less of an issue, although at the same time it makes the drawback worse (if you're not clearing tokens, of course).

Ratchet Bomb and Engineered Explosives: They are slow and frustrating and it feels like the white splash ought to give you better options than these, but perhaps we just have to suck it up. Bomb is old Colorless Eldrazi tech, which many of you may have experience playing with, but EE is a consideration since Bomb is set to 0 or 1 most of the time.

hofzge

10-12-2016, 10:20 AM

I have played Spatial Contortion now for some time and it really is the most generic removal spell but the least powerful. Your creatures are generally good against random small guys as many of them have first strike, but against a Goyf or Gurmag Angler you are kind of helpless.

The declaration is the least of painful solutions against big critters and at the same time is randomly powerful against swarm things which are a thing the deck has problems with.

Fatal

10-12-2016, 01:34 PM

Blessed Alliance - note for every users :-) you can cast it after dmg step in clean up when you block smaller creature..

I don't like Declaration in Stone since it's always a extra draw for opponent for 2 mana. Vs swarm - Jitte is probably best answer.

ESG

10-12-2016, 10:56 PM

I don't like Declaration in Stone since it's always a extra draw for opponent for 2 mana.

Declaration is actually very well-suited to this deck due to the taxing elements. When you have a Thalia or two out, the opponent usually needs to spend all of his or her mana to break the clue, so the choice becomes make a play or crack a clue and not make a play. The actual drawback of the card is that it costs white mana, and this deck is primarily colorless. I think the main challenge this deck faces is producing the right type of mana at the right time, which is quite difficult without fetches.

ChemicalBurns

10-13-2016, 10:08 AM

Declaration is actually very well-suited to this deck due to the taxing elements. When you have a Thalia or two out, the opponent usually needs to spend all of his or her mana to break the clue, so the choice becomes make a play or crack a clue and not make a play. The actual drawback of the card is that it costs white mana, and this deck is primarily colorless. I think the main challenge this deck faces is producing the right type of mana at the right time, which is quite difficult without fetches.

Agree with ESG here - compared to Contortion, or Wail, or Dismember, Declaration is much harder to cast than other options (and much slower, since it can't be cast off a single Tomb), but it's downside is pretty negligible due to how the deck typically functions. If your opponent takes a turn off drawing cards we are laughing, because this is an extra turn we get to deploy a lock piece to stop them from playing whatever they draw anyway, or we're beating them in the face and they're dead. Sure, against some grindy matches I'm sure it can be an issue (eg. Shardless), but I think if our plan is working its downside should be negligible. I also certainly like it more than Bomb if we want an answer to tokens.

In the end, I'm liking Dismember enough still. I really do wanna test the new tech sometime soon, but alas I am in university hell currently.

ZEROorDIE

10-13-2016, 02:22 PM

Fatal

10-13-2016, 05:04 PM

Agree with @ZeroorDie - I don't lik card 1W - sorcery - exile target creature, opponent draw a card for me it's just pure card disadvantage - I don't like it.

ESG

10-13-2016, 07:12 PM

none of our tax effects tax activated abilities, so that logic doesn't work.

not saying declaration isn't worth testing, just that the logic behind your reasons doesn't work. also, since declaration is a sorcery, they can activate the clue during your turn after it resolves.

You guys are free to play whatever you like. I tested the card, and it tested well. I then played the card in real matches and found it strong. I also explained what I felt was the card's drawback. It's frustrating to share my insight and be met with, "That logic doesn't work," by people who haven't even TESTED the card.

Activated abilities don't need to be taxed for Declaration to be effective. You are exiling their best creature in exchange for a random card. If you get to live the dream, you're exiling multiple copies of their best creature for two random cards. Also, in order to get these cards, the opponent has to pay mana, but this deck is effective at denying mana or slowing their deck down, so cracking a clue is often a real decision point and not an instant conversion.

Again, you don't have to like a card. It makes no difference to me whether you run Declaration or not.

iostream

10-13-2016, 08:57 PM

You guys are free to play whatever you like. I tested the card, and it tested well. I then played the card in real matches and found it strong. I also explained what I felt was the card's drawback. It's frustrating to share my insight and be met with, "That logic doesn't work," by people who haven't even TESTED the card.

Activated abilities don't need to be taxed for Declaration to be effective. You are exiling their best creature in exchange for a random card. If you get to live the dream, you're exiling multiple copies of their best creature for two random cards. Also, in order to get these cards, the opponent has to pay mana, but this deck is effective at denying mana or slowing their deck down, so cracking a clue is often a real decision point and not an instant conversion.

Again, you don't have to like a card. It makes no difference to me whether you run Declaration or not.I agree; I don't know why you are all so quick to be dismissive. I myself don't have a super strong opinion one way or the other, but I am at least willing to test it.

Speaking of which, I played about 15 games versus an Infect friend tonight to see if the 1W sorcery could possibly be acceptable against such a proactive deck, and the answer is "kind of, but not really". You often want to cast removal against Infect on your turn to prevent getting blown out by Vines anyway, so the timing is actually not a showstopping issue (except when their creature is Inkmoth Nexus). The problem is that when they have a good target for Declaration, they are usually in want of a pump/protection spell if it actually resolves - otherwise, it wouldn't have resolved. In that situation, giving them a draw helps them find it. For instance, I lost a game DiS-ing a pair of Blighted Agents in a long, drawn-out game because the clues found him a pump spell for his Nexus. I think Declaration should probably not be sideboarded in against Infect.

That being said, it made it clear that it might be OK versus some other decks. I am eager to try it against Grixis Delver.

Fatal

10-14-2016, 06:04 AM

Blessed Alliance looks much better vs infect, they mostly have 1 thread attacking, it dodge their protection in sort of hexproof, works also vs Nexus.

ZEROorDIE

10-14-2016, 10:34 AM

ZEROorDIE

10-14-2016, 11:05 AM

my list after a few weeks of testing. mostly 3-1 finishes at my lgs. sideboard is still in Flux so not posting that for now.

Creatures

2x Phyrexian Revoker

4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar

3x Eldrazi Displacer

2x Palace Jailer

4x Thought-Knot seer

4x Reality Smasher

Other

4x Chalice of the Void

2x Umezawa’s Jitte

3x Mox Diamond

2x Dismember (looking at Blessed Alliance, Declaration in Stone and Oblivion Ring in this slot)

Lands

6x Plains (considering replacing 2 with Flagstones of Trokair for Wasteland protection)

2x Karakas

4x Cavern of Souls

4x Ancient Tomb

4x Eldrazi Temple

2x City of Traitors

3x Wasteland

My current list, with two open slots. I really don’t like revoker 3-4, or displacer and THC #4. Was considering playing 2x thorn or sphere, or adding 2 more creatures. My prelates will be here soon, so I may test those, but I’m not sure if that’s where I want to be. I could also try Elsepth, but I’m really trying to avoid WW mana costs. A decent flier would be great, and when I can get my hands on some Smugglers Copter, I will be testing those. For now it will likely be either 2x Sphere or 2x Lodestone, but since I’m trying to fill in the 2cmc slot for more turn 1-2 play sphere is the likely candidate. If I go towards copters I will need creatures in that slot. I am very reluctant to go below 4x Smasher as this deck is great at locking up the early game, but terrible at closing if your opponent resolves anything useful. Playing this is reminiscent of MUD where it’s very easy to draw the wrong half of your lands for the creatures you have.

EunB

10-14-2016, 12:04 PM

ZEROorDIE: I'm not sure how replacing basic lands with non-basics help you out vs Wasteland. I like the high plains counts vs Blood Moon.

Here's the list I'll likely bring to Eternal Weekend:

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
1x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Karakas
5x Plains
4x Wasteland

Instant (2)
2x Warping Wail

Creature (25)
4x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Palace Jailer
2x Reality Smasher
2x Sanctum Prelate
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer

Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Mox Diamond
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
1x Declaration in Stone
2x Disenchant
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant
2x Spatial Contortion
3x Rest in Peace
2x Winter Orb
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Containment Priest

A few thoughts on the list:

- I vacillate between the 4th THC and 3rd Reality Smasher. I'll probably play the 3rd Smasher for EW since it's a better draw when you're running well, and you have to get a bit lucky to spike a major tournament. For a weekly list, I'd probably go with the 4th THC, though, since sometimes it's very difficult to hit 5 mana, and since my list runs 3 Palace Jailer already the mana curve is higher than average. It sucks to open a hand of Plains Wasteland Cavern TKS Jailer Smasher etc.

- Speaking of Palace Jailer, it's easily my favorite card in the deck. The card draw is so relevant and important and our aggression and taxing makes it really hard for the opponent to regain the monarch. It's obviously also busted with Displacer. I did run the full 4 for a while, but feel 3 is a good compromise. It serves the same role as Dismember did in the maindeck, and also allows me to play Spatial Contortion in the SB over Swords to Plowshares.

- I tested extensively with STP and didn't like it. There were too many times that I couldn't kill a Gurmag Angler because of my own Chalice. Between Jailer, Warping Wail and Spatial Contortion, Blessed Alliance and Declaration in Stone in the SB I feel we have a good mix to take care of any threat.

- I agree with many comments about Declaration in Stone on both sides, but it still seems necessary to me. The deck has trouble with multiple tarmogoyfts, creature token swarm, and some large creatures. I've been boarding it in vs Shardless, Delver, Eldrazi and Reanimator.

- Blessed Alliance has been good for me as outs to Marit Lage and TNN. I like BA better than Orzhov Pontiff since I only play 3 Mox Diamonds and Pontiff does nothing if TNN is equipped with anything or pumped by a merfolk lord. It can also come in vs Burn or UR Delver to gain some life.

- Still deciding between 2 or 3 Karakas. Looks like some people are running a 2nd City of Traitors over the 3rd Karakas, but for me I'm debating between 3rd Karakas and 6th Plains. City is probably my least favorite card in the deck, but it is necessary due to the curve. I just can't convince myself to play 2 since the 2 City draw is just the worst.

- Since people will ask, yes the WW of 3 Jailer / 2 Prelate is very taxing on the deck. To compensate I will almost always put my 1st Cavern on Human which can be awkward, but generally isn't that bad.

- Last thought: I think Eldrazi Displacer is one of the best cards in the deck and should never be trimmed.

Fatal

10-14-2016, 12:15 PM

Interesting list, understand all decision taken.

Still didn't decide about removal suite, tested Alliance and it's very well suited for this deck along with 4 (2 MD, 2 SB) Jailers. I found that Displacer gives me quite a lot of trouble with too many Caverns (4) - needed WW for Jailer, and when I named Human I'm missing sometimes white for Eldrazi as turn 2 drop, I trimmed 1 Cavern for plains since I'm also running SFM package, which helps a lot in tide matchups (D&T/Shardless).

1 or 2 City is always a problem since it gives a lot of boost for example turn 1 SFM from Mox then Sol land (non-Eldrazi) to cast and attack with jitte gives me a lot of wins in fair matchups.

I also shaved 4th Thalia's (both ones) since it's not good in D&T mirror - too many times I get multiple Thalia's and stuck without a real thread.

ZEROorDIE

10-14-2016, 01:11 PM

ZEROorDIE: I'm not sure how replacing basic lands with non-basics help you out vs Wasteland. I like the high plains counts vs Blood Moon.

- Last thought: I think Eldrazi Displacer is one of the best cards in the deck and should never be trimmed.

I don't know why I wrote that (probably because I typed up this post before I had my coffee) I was planning on testing Armageddon in this list, that's why flagstone.

also, I trimmed a Displacer because it really doesn't do anything in multiples. I want to see one, maybe 2 per game.

re: StP, I have 2 swords, 2 pithing needle in the side that I will bring in as a package against decks where chalice isn't great. although this may change if I like blessed alliance and declaration in stone.

I suppose going to three Smasher is reasonable, but with how well this deck slows your opponent, and the 10 sol lands and 3 mox I'm playing, I haven't had any issues casting reality Smasher.

edit: when I started this list I was playing three Karakas, but had to many scenarios where I had 2 in my first 10 cards and that was no bueno

ESG

10-14-2016, 03:46 PM

Blessed Alliance looks much better vs infect, they mostly have 1 thread attacking, it dodge their protection in sort of hexproof, works also vs Nexus.

I agree with this assessment.

easy there guy. I actually do intend on testing the card and have been looking at it as a removal option for a while, but no amount of testing is going to change how the card works.

this forum is dedicated to building competitive legacy deck, so a post full of misinformation should be corrected.

Why are you being condescending? I'm a competitive player. I've been contributing to this site for six years. Posting my experience with a card, pros and cons, is not misinformation. How is it that your armchair analysis alone is worth more than the analysis of someone who has played a card in real matches? I think it's valuable to hear people's experience.

Again, I'm not hyping a card. I simply provided my experiences with Declaration, contributing to the general discussion on removal options. You and Fatal then dismissed it without any testing. I'm not saying you need to play it.

EunB

10-14-2016, 04:26 PM

I also shaved 4th Thalia's (both ones) since it's not good in D&T mirror - too many times I get multiple Thalia's and stuck without a real thread.

I like shaving a 4th THC but I think Thalia 1.0 is necessary as 4-of to really solidify our combo matchup. I will often side out all 4 Thalia 1.0 as it is the weakest creature, but I think any first striker is okay vs D&T (assuming they don't have the Karakas to make them worthless).

I don't know why I wrote that (probably because I typed up this post before I had my coffee) I was planning on testing Armageddon in this list, that's why flagstone.

Makes sense, is that based on the D&T list that was floating around recently with 4 Flagstones and 3 SB 'Geddon? I think that strategy works better in vial decks, though we are slightly able to leverage it due to our sol lands and mox diamonds.

also, I trimmed a Displacer because it really doesn't do anything in multiples. I want to see one, maybe 2 per game.

Thalia actually does nothing in multiples since she's legendary, so if we're not cutting her I don't know about cutting Displacer. Multiple Displacers also let you blink each other to save them from removal, and 3/3s are decent beaters.

I suppose going to three Smasher is reasonable, but with how well this deck slows your opponent, and the 10 sol lands and 3 mox I'm playing, I haven't had any issues casting reality Smasher.

edit: when I started this list I was playing three Karakas, but had to many scenarios where I had 2 in my first 10 cards and that was no bueno

I agree with your desire to play as many Smasher as we can. Closing out games in 2 turns is absolutely what the deck needs. I really like Karakas since it's so good vs so many matchups and can save our Thalias. Any extraneous ones we draw can also be pitched to Mox Diamond.

Fatal

10-15-2016, 06:05 PM

I agree with this assessment.

Why are you being condescending? I'm a competitive player. I've been contributing to this site for six years. Posting my experience with a card, pros and cons, is not misinformation. How is it that your armchair analysis alone is worth more than the analysis of someone who has played a card in real matches? I think it's valuable to hear people's experience.

Again, I'm not hyping a card. I simply provided my experiences with Declaration, contributing to the general discussion on removal options. You and Fatal then dismissed it without any testing. I'm not saying you need to play it.

@ESG - sorry I have very little time to make decent tests, not sure is it worth, vs what creatures you need hard removal ?

1)Overgrowth Tarmogoyfs
2) Creatures which are attacking you (infect & Tempo) and you can't generate faster clock
3) Functional creatures like Dark Confidant/Shaman
4) Cheated fatties

Declaration don't work on some creatures in infect (Nexus), it doesn't work under opponent hexproof so 2) is miss, same for 4 (targeting)

So only 1) and 3) left
Both can be puzzled by RIP (works much better on BUG and it's more permanent) and Warping Wail (which has more functions).

I only see 1 conditional advantage Declaration in sort of answer vs EtW. If my meta would be infected with Belcher/TES I would use it. But I met much more TNN, Infect, Burn, S&T.. that's why I use Warping Wail, RiP and Blessed Alliance.

If you face grind matchup like Shardless BUG you choose one of 2 strategies against them:
- Tempo them out
- Grind them out
Which one you choose depends on your hand. Declaration dismiss second one, Blessed Alliance dismiss first one, that's why I don't even side in Blessed Alliance vs Shardless BUG.

I use it vs Tempo Delver decks, where turn 1 delver can outrace my clock.

Edit: Missed Knight of the Reliquary which would be second reason, but on the other side you have Marit Token. (again RiP should be more considered)

iostream

10-15-2016, 11:24 PM

So only 1) and 3) left
Both can be puzzled by RIP (works much better on BUG and it's more permanent) and Warping Wail (which has more functions).

1) Rest in Peace is a fine card to bring in, but it's not a sufficient plan. All the Goyf and Knight decks run Abrupt Decays. You need to be able to actually answer those creatures if the RiP plan goes south.

2) You'd like something against YP and Mentor tokens, and none of the spot removal spells do anything against those. This is admittedly not solved cleanly by Declaration in Stone, as it still leaves the token generator alive, but short of running a Wrath effect or something, I don't know what better answers exist. Ratchet Bomb? Holy Light?!

Fatal

10-16-2016, 07:53 AM

1) Rest in Peace is a fine card to bring in, but it's not a sufficient plan. All the Goyf and Knight decks run Abrupt Decays. You need to be able to actually answer those creatures if the RiP plan goes south.

2) You'd like something against YP and Mentor tokens, and none of the spot removal spells do anything against those. This is admittedly not solved cleanly by Declaration in Stone, as it still leaves the token generator alive, but short of running a Wrath effect or something, I don't know what better answers exist. Ratchet Bomb? Holy Light?!

Ok understand your need - we need a sweeper:
1) Which kill tokens and token generator
2) Which doesn't kill your resolved creature
3) Which has no more then 4 cmc and no other color then white or colorless.

From my game experience you kill tokens only only if you have to - (lethal dmg), every other time killing token generator has much more EV+.

I made research and found this one:

Portcullis

Ok, how it works - If there are 2 creatures on battlefield (other then entering) each creature entered battlefield is exiled as long as Portocullis leaves battlefield. So it's basically a lock so opponent can't add additional tokens. So it's not a kill but solution to token producing as long as you have 2 or more creatures. This card is very powerful, it can lock completely battlefield even against S&T.
Actually I would like to get answer from good judge how interact S&T when both players put creatures and battlefield state already have two creatures. I assume that both creatures are exiled, but if there is only one creature on battlefield before S&T ?
probably - again both creatures are exiled since "You check the count of the number of creatures on the battlefield again during resolution. The creature will not be exiled if the count is 2 or less." since there will be 3 creatures both entered will be exiled - this one is debatable since after exiling one of them we get fail at checking on resolution - so question which will be exiled.

This card can be double edged sword since if opponent kill one of your creatures and then cast next one, you will be locked. I think since we have one of the biggest creatures on table (compared to other non-cheated threads) we should get advantage on table then when opponent is forced to block we just lock totally option to cast blockers.

This card can be also very good against Shardless BUG - decay proof, etc. I wouldn't recommend this against D&T since it has very poor interaction against Flickerwisp - if he exiling our creature that creature will be exiled after with Portcullis - actually I could be very good sb for D&T against any other creature base decks.

I used this card in EDH in my UW stax, it was a mess in multiplayer games since this close most ways to cast creatures at all. Important note learned it doesn't stop creatures to trigger when entering the battlefield - it's not replacement so, creature enter the battlefield then it's exiled. I would like to discuss about that card as SB option vs swarms and probably S&T/Sneak Attack.

----
Other option which doesn't realize 3) requirement is Contagion Engine slow and ineffective other also slow but probably much more effective will be Austere Command it overcosted but works great.

Other option which doesn't realize 2) is Nevinyrral's Disk

EunB

10-16-2016, 10:37 AM

Another option is Holy Light. Only thing it kills in our list is Revoker and is good vs YP and TNN. Obviously bad vs Mentor tokens and D&T.

We can also reduce some of our Plains count for Caves of Koilos to commit to the Orzhov Pontiff splash.

EunB

10-18-2016, 01:48 AM

Small local tournament report (12 players, 4 rounds) -- same list I posted on last page (-1 THC +1 Smasher).

Round 1 -- Reanimator:

G1: He forces my chalice on one, but I have a 2nd. I get out 2 Thalias and quickly beat him to death.

G2: I keep Thalia 1.0, Containment Priest, RIP, Chalice and 2 lands. I elect to cast RIP turn 2 while he represented Entomb after Pondering as I felt it was the most impactful card. Turn 3 he did nothing, so I cast a Chalice on 1 to prevent him from digging for a Decay or Show & Tell (since he didn't cast one on t3). Turn 4 he jams a Helm of Obedience and I don't draw a Revoker so I die.

G3: Quick Thalia into TKS into Prelate on 4 to hedge against Massacre ends the game.

SB: in: 2 Containment Priest 3 RIP 1 Blessed Alliance (for Archetype of Endurance) out: 3 Reality Smasher 1 Jitte 2 Displacer

Smasher and Displacer are too slow even on the play vs Combo.

1-0, 2-1 in games

Round 2 -- D&T:

G1: I turn 1 Chalice and then beat him down quickly with TKS and Reality Smasher, Warping Wailing away a SFM in the process. He equipped a Jitte to a Thalia 1.0 the turn before dying.

G2: Another quick one. Smasher beats and Displacer clear the way to victory.

SB: in: 2 Disenchant 2 Spatial Contortion 2 Containment Priest out: 4 Chalice of the Void 2 Sanctum Prelate

Flickerwisp and his Caverns make my Chalice weaker so I accept that my guys will get Plowed and aim for the long game.

2-0, 4-1 in games

Round 3 -- Food Chain:

G1: I lose the die roll and lead Temple go. He Manipulates Fate on turn 2 and overruns me with Griffins while I stare at a hand of 3 Reality Smashers and a TKS that I can't cast. I had the option of ditching a Cavern to Mox Diamond on T1 and holding up Warping Wail but elected to keep the Cavern to fight through his FoW. That probably lost me that game.

G2: T1 Displacer, T2 TKS, and a Reality Smasher closes it out.

G3: I turn 2 TKS and take a Baleful Strix, but he Shardless cascades into a 2nd. I elect to jam my Smasher into it anyway putting him at 9, and cast another TKS taking a Deluge. My 2 Thought Knots then stare down a board of 2 Shardless and 2 DRS and I don't feel like I can attack profitably into it. I wait for a Displacer or Jailer or removal spell to show up but I brick off on lands. He draws Manipulate Fate and starts casting Griffins. At 14 life facing 6 power in the air I find a Jailer and exile a 3/3 Genesis Hydra just to try to attack and draw off Monarch. He takes Monarch in the air next turn, and puts me to 8 while casting his 3rd Griffin. I draw a Spatial Contortion and swing all in. He double blocks one TKS with 2 shardless and the other with a DRS and Griffin. I Contortion the DRS and he exiles a spell putting me to 6, taking 2 from the Jailer and giving me back Monarch. I have one Monarch draw to find a Blessed Alliance but brick on land and die to 9 power of fliers.

SB: in: 2 disenchant 2 spatial contortion 2 blessed alliance out: 4 chalice of the void 2 sanctum prelate

Chalice and Prelate not at their best here. Prelate would only be good on 2 which shuts off a lot of my own interaction. I think I win this match if I win the die roll.

2-1, 5-3 in games

Round 4 -- RUG Delver:

G1: He pierces my chalice on 1, but I have a 2nd which locks him out of half his deck. He cast a goyf which I chump/Karakas bounce with Thalia 1.0 while I buy some time digging for more lands. He plays a 2nd goyf, so I play THC and take 6 damage down to 11. He casts a 3rd goyf and I recast Thalia 1.0. He casts a Mongoose into chalice to grow the goyfs and swings with all 3, so I double block 1 and take 8 down to 3. Next turn I cast a Palace Jailer off an ancient tomb to exile a goyf and run away with the game from there, ending the game at 1 life.

G2: He dazes my t2 chalice, then casts a mongoose and starts pecking away at my life total 1 hp at a time. I cast a THC which he dismembers, then cast another which he Forces. EOT he bolts me and attacks again. On my turn I've got tomb plains waste waste in play and Palace Jailer Blessed Alliance and I think TKS in hand. I can't really play any of the creatures due to life total so I waste his Volc and get hit by his last card which is another bolt putting me to 3. On his turn he swings with Goose and I Blessed Alliance it. He pierces, so I tap tomb putting myself to 1. I draw a cavern, so set it to human and play a displacer. He plays delver next turn. I draw a Prelate and have a choice to make. He's tapped out with one trop so I decide to put Prelate on 1 rather than displace the delver to play around Stifle. He whiffs on the trigger and I cast Jailer to exile the Delver and win quickly from there. In retrospect I probably should've just kept up displacer mana since the odds of him flipping delver are higher than the odds of him having a stifle in hand.

SB: in: 3 RIP, 2 Spatial Contortion 2 Blessed Alliance out: 3 Reality Smasher 2 Phyrexian Revoker 2 Thalia 1.0

Smasher again too slow, Revoker has 0 targets, and Thalia 1.0 slows my interactive spells down especially if I'm getting wastelanded.

Overall 3-1, 7-3 in games good enough for 2nd place (undefeateds split 1st) and ~$40 in store credit.

Every match felt winnable, my slow starts were salvageable and powerful enough to compete with my opponent and my fast starts were just completely broken and nearly impossible for my opponent to come back from. I like the sideboard, I like the mainboard, and I love playing this deck.

I didn't get to cast Declaration in Stone all night, nor did I play any decks that I would side Elspeth in vs. I still feel they're tools I would like access to so they will stay for now. MVP of the night was Palace Jailer for sure. Aside from vs Food Chain I felt extremely far ahead everytime I resolved him.

square_two

10-18-2016, 09:42 AM

MVP of the night was Palace Jailer for sure. Aside from vs Food Chain I felt extremely far ahead everytime I resolved him.

Really glad to continue hearing this! And thanks for the report.

Fatal

10-18-2016, 10:00 AM

Lodestone Golem works wounderful vs Food Chain :-) specially with first strike - key to winning vs them is tempo. Disenchants also works good.

thefreakaccident

10-18-2016, 10:49 AM

Lodestone Golem is a beast, as long as you survive to get him out.

ZEROorDIE

10-18-2016, 05:25 PM

Lodestone Golem is a beast, as long as you survive to get him out.

as much as I love Lodestone Golem, I don't really think it has a place in this deck(Thalia stompy). I've played it with good results in a much more prison oriented version of this deck(7 Thalia, 4 Lodestone 4 sphere,) but this build will slow your opponents considerably and an easy to remove, low impact threat like Lodestone is not ideal.

I think we have a solid creature base with 2-4 flex slots and now we need to iron out the removal package, test vehicles and consolidate the list of potential sideboard cards.

hofzge

10-19-2016, 11:27 AM

Weekly feedback from the LGS / This time i tested Smuggler's Copter an Declaration in Stone:

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Karakas
4x Plains
4x Wasteland

Instant (3)
1x Dismember
2x Warping Wail

Creature (22)
4x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Reality Smasher
2x Sanctum Prelate
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Smuggler's Copter

Sideboard (15)
2x Declaration in Stone
1x Disenchant
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Rest in Peace
2x Tsabo's Web
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x War Priest of Thune

2-1 win against Nic Fit (Henning)

1-2 loss against Infect (Alexander)

2-0 win against BR Reanimator (Matej)

Smuggler's Copter was MVP in nearly every single game I played - It seems like it was made for our deck - the mana cost, the looting, the flying...

I did not like the Declarations at all even aginst Reanimator. It is a clunky spell - maybe I will replace them with Dismembers and Blessed Alliances.

Fatal

10-20-2016, 02:27 PM

Cire

10-20-2016, 02:37 PM

That's the twisted version W/G/R :-)

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108692

Don't understand:
1 Mimic - really why?
3 Eye - with only 25 lands - it's mean so many times muligan and unplayable hands like Eye + any colorless and all white hand.
1 World Breaker -for sure too random to have proper impact - intension was probably Eye Bullet but it's really slow to search and cast even with 2 sowers.
4 Flametongue Kavu in sb with 4 Kozilek Return - this mean "synergy"

Nothing against Bridge/Moon (cluncky mana base) Moon turn 1-2 is autolose/Moat or even answer vs any creatures/equipments etc.

Not sure how this deck made top8.

That deck basically took WRG lists from Eldrazi stompy from earlier this year, added in Flametounge Tech that W/R eldrazi has been running, then decided to do Ulmog and Sower as per recent colorless builds, then decided to transition to Thalia Stompy. . . it's a beautiful mess. I love it. :tongue:

EunB

10-30-2016, 09:10 AM

Went 7-3 at Eternal Weekend. Variance/unlucky draws aside I was close to being 9-1; only one match was unwinnable. Will provide a report on Monday.

Fatal

10-30-2016, 12:39 PM

Went 7-3 at Eternal Weekend. Variance/unlucky draws aside I was close to being 9-1; only one match was unwinnable. Will provide a report on Monday.

Solid result, congrats. Interesting which match was unwinable.

iostream

10-30-2016, 07:00 PM

Also went 7-3 at Eternal Weekend. Definitely felt like my three losses were my fault and it was really only my lack of practice and skill level that was holding me back. Copter and Jailer are gas. This deck feels special. Will say a few more words in the coming days.

pocari79

11-02-2016, 10:34 AM

Went 7-3 at Eternal Weekend. Ran the list I previously posted before except for a couple changes in the sideboard to shore up the combo matchups as my friend played in a bunch of legacy side events on Friday and faced pretty much every single different combo deck.

6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Reality Smasher
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
2 Warping Wail

Sideboard:
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rest in Peace
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
2 Containment Priest
1 Trinisphere
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Council's Judgment

Round 1 - Brian (Mentor Miracles)
I punt pretty hard game 1 and lose because of it and then game 3, every time I resolve a chalice on 1, he had the answer the next turn (either engineered explosives or wear//tear). Not exactly the start I wanted..

0-1 (1-2)

Round 2 - Taylor (Miracles)
I win game 1 pretty fast and was not sure what kind of build he is on as I've seen drastically different sideboard plans so game 2 I decide to side like he's on Mentors and I get punished as he's on the heavy enchantment plan with Blood Moons and Energy Fields. Game 3 I sideboard in all my enchantment removal and I won when he tried to miracle a Terminus when I had open mana and Displacer and Seer in play.

1-1 (3-3)

Round 3 - Scott (Sneak/Show)
He didn't have a fast hand on turn 1 and I was just able to hate him out. Game 2 he resolves a turn 1 Show and Tell putting in a Gristlebrand and I'm just trying to draw into a Karakas or a removal spell and I didn't. Game 3 he didn't have a fast hand and I was able to resolve a Thought-Knot to take his threat and then get fast beats for the win.

2-1 (5-4)

Round 4 - Edward (Grixis Delver)
Game 1 I manage to resolve a Chalice on 1 and that just slowed him down enough that I was able to get in a bunch of attacks before he manages to cast an Angler. Game 2 was unfortunate as he's on the play, mulls to 5, scrys to the top and then just passes the turn without playing a land. It was not much of a game as I resolve a turn 1 Thalia 1.0, then a Thought-knot Seer taking a removal spell and then turn 3 Palace Jailer exiling a Delver.

3-1 (7-4)

Round 5 - Erik (Manaless Dredge)
I hardly have anything in game 1 to interact with him and he rolls me over quick. Game 2, I think I could have played this better, I don't really remember if my opening hand had a Thalia 1.0 or not but I started the game with a turn 1 Revoker on Phantasmagorian and tried to resolve a turn 2 Containment Priest that got Forced. I remember casting a Thalia 1.0 the next turn and don't remember if I was able to cast Thalia the previous turn to turn off his force? Anyways, I try to stall out the game as he's on a slow dredge with only a Golgari Thug but I don't draw anything relevant either. I cast a Palace Jailer as soon as I'm able to and draw around 6 cards and hit nothing and just pretty much lose to Vengeful Pharoahs. After the game, I look at the top of my deck and there's like 8 more mana sources on top. Oh well, sometimes you just can't win.

3-2 (7-6)

Round 6 - Daniel (Burn)
Both games, I resolve a Chalice on 1 but I draw no Mox Diamonds or basic lands or Wastelands and I just died to Price of Progress for 8 multiple times both games. Sigh. Very frustrating games.

3-3 (7-8)

Round 7 - William (Dredge)
Game 1, he mulls to 5 or 6 and wasn't able to dredge for much before my Smasher and Though-Knot got there. Game 2, he casts turn 1 Therapy naming Thalia 1.0 and whiffs. I was then able to resolve a turn 1 Rest in Peace, turn 2 Displacer, turn 3 Containment Priest and then just started exiling his hardcast Imps and Thugs.

4-3 (9-8)

Round 8 - Chad (???)
He was a no-show. The guy beside me also had a no-show so I ended up playing him in a 1 game fun match cause we both wanted to play some magic. It turns out he was on Sneak/Show and I make a misplay when he casts a Show and Tell and I have the option to play an Ancient Tomb to turn my Displacer active or to play a Karakas to bounce a legend back and I end up putting in the Karakas in play. He puts in an Omniscience and then casts an Emrakul and I'm like damn, if I put in an Ancient Tomb, I would have been able to keep on Displacing Emrakul
before it ever attacks. Good to know for next time.

5-3 (11-8)

Round 9 - Leian (Sneak/show)
I thought I had game 1 locked up after he Show and Telled in an Emrakul and I put in a Displacer with mana up. I was able to Displace the Emrakul multiple times and on his last turn, he's able to cast a Cunning Wish for a Trickbind to stifle the Displacer activation and I got killed in 1 shot by Emrakul thanks to damage from my Ancient Tombs. Game 2 I just stomp him, I was able to take away his threat and then he didn't play a spell. Game 3, he's able to resolve a turn 1 show and tell putting in Omniscience while I put in a Thought-Knot seeing that he has bricks and I just had to race him before he found a fatty and he just couldn't find a fatty in the next two turns.

6-3 (13-9)

Round 10 - Bruce (Grixis Delver)
He's fairly new to legacy and that showed when he tried to Daze a Thalia that 1) was cast from a Cavern of Souls naming Human and 2) was also cast with an Ancient Tomb so I also had 1 colorless floating to pay for Daze if I wanted to. He also tried to cast a Lightning Bolt after Prelate resolved thinking that the number I choose goes on the stack but I told him that doesn't use the stack and if he wanted to cast a bolt, he'd have to do it when Prelate was on the stack. Mistakes aside, this matchup always feels like it's heavily in our favor and I don't remember any difficulty beating him.

7-3 (15-9)

Afterthoughts:
The deck still feels really strong and the only thing I'd change up in the maindeck would be the Warping Wails. Sometimes they feel just totally mediocre but then once in a while they end up countering a key Terminus or Show and Tell and then it just feels incredible so I'm really not sure what I can replace it with.

Miracles also no longer feels like an easy win. It seems like all builds now run some main deck Engineered Explosives so resolving an early Chalice on 1 doesn't feel as good. Plus if you don't know what gameplan your opponent is on game 2, you could be sideboarding totally wrong. I saw a ton of Moats, Blood Moons, Back to Basics and Energy Fields. It feels like Disenchant is no longer good enough. Maybe it's time for Serenity? It probably won't be this varied in a local meta but it's something to look out for.

The Pontiffs were the real deal. I never got to sideboard them in but my friend who ran the exact 75+1 was playing against matchups where he was getting blowouts with the Pontiffs so I'll be leaving them in.

Sneak/show was also not as easy as a matchup as I expected as they now usually Show and Tell in Omnisciences which makes our usual hate cards like Containment Priest and Karakas not as good. I was trying out Trinispheres because of this but it just slows them down by one turn which sometimes is not enough. Not too sure what else we can try here.

EunB

11-02-2016, 11:17 AM

Been busy, but here's my short writeup from Eternal Weekend. 7-3 seems to be the trend here.

6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
3 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Reality Smasher
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Palace Jailer

Sideboard:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Winter Orb
2 Disenchant
2 Containment Priest
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Declaration in Stone

Round 1 - Michael (D&T)
I revoker a Vial, cast TKS, THC and then Jitte to close it out. G2 was a bad keep with no white sources and I die quickly. G3 I cast t2 and t3 TKS and close it out.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2 - Boston (Grixis Delver)
I get out a Prelate on one and Jail his Angler to take g1. G2 Prelate on one gets there again and I avoid some delver flips to buy enough time to cast Jailer to close it out.

2-0 (4-1)

Round 3 - Travis (Eldrazi)
T1 THC, then Displacer Jitte and Smasher end the game quickly. In game 2 I was wastelanded and didn't draw more land, losing despite getting out a T1 Displacer. Game 3 I cast t2 THC, then Displacer. I wastelanded a Karakas, but he never drew a colorless source and died with Urborg/Eye and TKS in hand.

3-0 (6-2)

Round 4 - Christopher (Imperial Painter)
He casts Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, then Painter/Jaya and destroys my one white source. Game two I chalice on one but brick off on lands while he gets out a quick Magus, then Fiery Confluences my Jitte, Chalice on 1 and Mox Diamond. I die quickly after that. This was the one matchup I felt completely helpless against.

3-1 (6-4)

Round 5 - Alex (Aluren)
He Thoughtseized a TKS, but I went Thalia 1.0 into Smasher and won quickly afterwards. Game 2 I was stuck on 2 land and just did nothing. Game 3 I got t1 Chalice, but was stuck on 2 land again for a while. Ripped a land to cast TKS stealing the Aluren he was going to cast next turn, then next turn cast a Smasher to take the victory.

4-1 (8-5)

Round 6 - Colin (D&T)
Drew 3 moxes game 1 and no lands beyond the two that were in my hand. Port kept me locked out. Game 2 he Wastelanded me twice and again I drew zero lands beyond my opening hand. This is one of my better matchups so it was frustrating to lose this one to mana screw.

4-2 (8-7)

Round 7 - Richie (Shardless)
Game one THC is an all star and carries the game despite me getting stuck on 3 land again and bricking off on Mox Diamonds (I seriously hated this card by this point in the day). Once I finally found a 4th land TKS closed it out quickly. Game 2 I drew zero lands for 4-5 turns for the Smasher in my hand that would kill him. Game 3 I went turn 2 TKS turn 3 TKS that got Maelstrom Pulsed. He drew about 10 cards off of multiple AV, but 2x Displacer found victory as my opp. revealed a hand of about 6 lands. Tough for him.

5-2 (10-8)

Round 8 - Nathan (Grixis Delver)
By this time I was fatigued so my notes (and play) began to suffer. Game one he Therapied 2 Thalias and won the race off of a last-turn Delver flip. Game two I got a T2 Prelate and Wastelanded him twice. Game 3 I had the game locked up with a Chalice on 1 and a Displacer/Thalia out until I missed my Chalice trigger and let him resolve Bolt on my Displacer. I then had to Thalia/Karakas block an Angler for much of the game surviving until I could find a Palace Jailer and put it away.

6-2 (12-9)

Round 9 - Joseph (Reanimator)
I mulled to 5 and he went t1 Griselbrand. I waited for a Karakas but it never showed up. Game 2 I cast Containment Priest, Prelate on 2 (he showed Collective Brutality g1) and 2x TKS. Game 3 he Forced my Chalice on 1, then shuffled off Ponder into Entomb/Exhume Inkwell Leviathan. I didn't draw any Blessed Alliance so died. This round was also winnable and just variance at play.

6-3 (13-11)

Round 10 - James (Infect)
I wasteland him twice and he just doesn't draw any more land. Game two I get a displacer out that basically prevents him from doing anything and quickly beat him down with it and Thalias.

7-3 (15-11)

Afterthoughts:

The way I constructed the deck was purposefully greedy because I wanted my best cards in larger numbers with the mindset of luck wins tournaments. This mindset probably cost me the D&T match since I was stuck on 2-3 lands with multiple 4-5 drops in hand. My curve was just too high. Going forward my plan is to shave 1 Jailer, 1 Thalia 1.0, and 1 Smasher for 1 Dismember and 2 Smuggler's Copter. Jailer as the only source of CA and large creature removal was sketchy at times, though I never lost a game where he resolved interestingly. Copter seems like a great bridge to the late game and the deck desperately needs card filtering and early-game filtering at that. Since I'm going to be cutting creatures for spells, Thalia 1.0 is an easy one to shave at least for now. Another option is to just stick with 8 Thalia since THC is one of the best cards in the deck, but with no Chrome Mox to pitch extras to I fear drawing 4-5 Thalias in one game.

10 rounds in one day is simply too much.

I wouldn't change anything in my Sideboard. Blessed Alliance is just so versatile and saved me from multiple Marit Lages in side events.

Palace Jailer is at its best when other people aren't playing it. Soldier Stompy getting on camera and doing work with it is bad news, since it's no longer basically an unconditional removal spell/howling mine. If Jailers stock falls so does this decks, unfortunately.

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11-02-2016, 11:36 AM

Don't have time to write up a full report, so I'll just say what I won and lost again and give some brief comments:

2 Containment Priest
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Palace Jailer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Reality Smasher
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Warping Wail
3 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
7 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Declaration in Stone
2 Armageddon
1 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Trinisphere

wins: Jund, UR Delver, 12-Post, Colorless Eldrazi, D+T, Esper Deathblade, Miracles
losses: D+T, RUG Delver, Lands

Comments:

- The maindeck felt very close to perfect. Maybe the third Mox Diamond should be a Flagstones of Trokair to help enable sideboard Armageddon or maybe another cheap creature. I was basically never able to profitably cast the second Mox Diamond I drew. I tried a City of Traitors in side events on Sunday and it was a failed experiment. Basically hated seeing it every time and always wished it were a white source. Lotus Petal might also be a consideration. But overall, I'm becoming more skeptical that we need a ton of fast mana. It obviously makes certain draws unbeatable, but I think this deck is closer to D+T than it is to Colorless Eldrazi. I don't think we need to mulligan to a big turn 1 play like Colorless Eldrazi does.

- I really could have gone 10-0 with this deck. My losses were narrow ones that were basically due to not having adequate practice with those matchups; not deploying things in the right order, not understanding what is important in the matchup at different stages of the game, that kind of thing. Every matchup felt so winnable. I just didn't put in the reps to execute properly.

- I know I'm running a bunch of nonstandard choices, so here are my opinions about them:

1) Palace Jailer was incredible. It drew me like 30 cards over the course of the day. I lost monarch only once, and it just didn't matter. I'm so happy I didn't run any Dismembers.
2) Smuggler's Copter also performed very well, winning me many races I otherwise could not have possibly won in ways that are not obvious at first glance. This card is so good at holding onto tempo. For instance, in my match against colorless Eldrazi, I found out that Displacer + Copter + one Displacer activation each turn just flat out beats 2 opposing Thought-Knot Seers in the damage race. Displacer + any other creature except Reality Smasher would have failed that test.
3) Maindeck Containment Priest surprises decks in so many random ways. I think it has just enough utility to be an acceptable game 1 card.
4) Armageddon is incredible versus Miracles. Running 7 Plains makes From the Ashes and Back to Basics look really embarrassing a lot of the time.

- We don't have outs to Colorless Eldrazi's most insane nut draws. If they keep a hand that's even a little clunky, Thalia 2 and Displacer get there, but we are just like every other deck in that we don't have much play against turn 2 Reality Smasher.

- The sideboard needs a bit of work:

1) Trinisphere isn't needed. I know my sampling of the metagame was super fair, but the predominant combo decks right now are Storm and Sneak/Show, and as pocari79 observes, Trinisphere is not good against Sneak/Show. I would rather play Thorn of Amethyst (and I don't really want to play Thorn of Amethyst).

2) Stoneforge Mystic was reasonable, although I never got to make a Germ. It mostly fetched up Jitte. Batterskull is a really risky thing to fetch against most fair decks since you only have 2 Stoneforges, so if your first gets bolted or plowed, you don't have enough extra copies as backup - Batterskull ends up rotting in your hand, especially under Thalia or against Wasteland. Even in matchups where a resolved Batterskull is a game winner it can be risky. For instance, RUG Delver and certain version of Grixis can Stifle the Living Weapon trigger, which is such a tempo killer. I think Sword of Fire and Ice might be a better secondary target in the board. That would also allow one to have a good plan against True-Name Nemesis decks, which I expect to gain popularity since Jarvis top 8'd with one. But if I'm not running Batterskull, why am I playing Stoneforge Mystic again? Just as a tutor? That seems like a bad use of SB space. I want to cut these.

3) Disenchant should be Seal of Cleansing. I didn't like Disenchant in testing, but thought I should have at least one of that effect just in case. But I realized the problem is that I don't want to hold up mana basically ever. I think I might want to test two to make sure that's the reason why I hated Disenchant in testing. It's attractive as an out to Omniscience now that it's popular in Sneak/Show, and it helps deal with Aether Vial, which was an issue in my D+T games.

4) Key to the City was suggested by my teammate as further counterplay against TNN and as another random filtering effect for grindy matchups, and I think that it could be good. I am aware that I sound like a crazy person who is trying to jam as many Standard cards into his Legacy deck. But I think this might be one of those cards that just does enough to be terrific.

The deck still feels really strong and the only thing I'd change up in the maindeck would be the Warping Wails. Sometimes they feel just totally mediocre but then once in a while they end up countering a key Terminus or Show and Tell and then it just feels incredible so I'm really not sure what I can replace it with.

Miracles also no longer feels like an easy win. It seems like all builds now run some main deck Engineered Explosives so resolving an early Chalice on 1 doesn't feel as good. Plus if you don't know what gameplan your opponent is on game 2, you could be sideboarding totally wrong. I saw a ton of Moats, Blood Moons, Back to Basics and Energy Fields. It feels like Disenchant is no longer good enough. Maybe it's time for Serenity? It probably won't be this varied in a local meta but it's something to look out for.

The Pontiffs were the real deal. I never got to sideboard them in but my friend who ran the exact 75+1 was playing against matchups where he was getting blowouts with the Pontiffs so I'll be leaving them in.

Sneak/show was also not as easy as a matchup as I expected as they now usually Show and Tell in Omnisciences which makes our usual hate cards like Containment Priest and Karakas not as good. I was trying out Trinispheres because of this but it just slows them down by one turn which sometimes is not enough. Not too sure what else we can try here.
I agree Wail is not the most exciting card, but I think all three effects are situationally useful in almost every matchup. I think it's just barely good enough.

Miracles was indeed tougher in my testing, which is why I was packing Armageddon. I think it really is the solution. The deck is so good at getting ahead and drawing out all their counterspells early that Armageddon actually does resolve pretty often. You just have to make sure you have a decent clock on board before you jam it.

Pontiffs are interesting, although I am terrified that they are uncastable. Isn't it a card that you want primarily for D+T? It seems really tough to successfully jam it through all their mana disruption.

Showing in Omniscience is indeed a problem, but I think it's almost the only way we lose against Sneak/Show. The rest of the deck is pretty good at stopping the other lines. Seal of Cleansing obviously helps, but if you don't like it, I think it's acceptable to concede that specific line. They don't always have it.

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11-02-2016, 11:49 AM

I wouldn't change anything in my Sideboard. Blessed Alliance is just so versatile and saved me from multiple Marit Lages in side events.

Palace Jailer is at its best when other people aren't playing it. Soldier Stompy getting on camera and doing work with it is bad news, since it's no longer basically an unconditional removal spell/howling mine. If Jailers stock falls so does this decks, unfortunately.
I actually hated Blessed Alliances when I tested them, but I was bringing them in as a generic removal spell even against things like D+T, and in that capacity it was horrible. Is this a specific countermeasure to Marit Lage and cheated fatties? Or do you use them in other contexts.

I agree that if Jailer becomes universally recognized as good, it starts to look a lot worse. But I will keep jamming them until I see the metagame shift.

EunB

11-02-2016, 12:05 PM

I actually hated Blessed Alliances when I tested them, but I was bringing them in as a generic removal spell even against things like D+T, and in that capacity it was horrible. Is this a specific countermeasure to Marit Lage and cheated fatties? Or do you use them in other contexts.

I agree that if Jailer becomes universally recognized as good, it starts to look a lot worse. But I will keep jamming them until I see the metagame shift.

Specific to cheated fatties, Marit Lage, Infect, and True-Name Nemesis. I'd also bring it in versus any non-Grixis Delver as another way to kill a quick Delver, and as a way to gain life vs UR Delver/Burn. I agree as generic removal spell it's terrible. It's a tool for a specific purpose, but having outs to almost any situation is just my playstyle.

Sideboard plan was as follows:

Rest in Peace in vs Shardless, RUG Delver, Lands, any GY deck

Winter Orb in vs Miracles, 12 Post

Containment Priest in vs any midrange deck with creatures, S&T decks, GY decks, Elves

Disenchant in vs Shardless, S&T Decks, Blood Moon Decks, Miracles, Infect

Blessed Alliance in vs Reanimator, Burn, non-Grixis Delver, Merfolk, any TNN deck, Lands, Infect

Spatial Contortion in vs Delver, D&T, Elves, Infect

Elspeth in vs midrange decks, Miracles, Eldrazi

Declaration in Stone in vs midrange creature decks, Storm, Eldrazi, Reanimator, Dredge, Grixis Delver

pocari79

11-02-2016, 12:18 PM

Pontiffs are interesting, although I am terrified that they are uncastable. Isn't it a card that you want primarily for D+T? It seems really tough to successfully jam it through all their mana disruption.

With 4 Caverns and 4 Mox Diamonds, it's really not hard to cast Pontiff. It's not just for D&T though. I mainly had it to get rid of True-Names but I'll board it in against token generating decks or even against storm to hedge against Empty the Warrens. Also displacing Pontiff is pretty much the nuts against those decks that love going wide.

MD.Ghost

11-03-2016, 05:10 PM

Speaking about Orzhov Pontiff and Blessed Alliance let me think about the new commander card (for soldiers):

Selfless Squire - seems like a nice sideboard catch, it can be a nice blowout if you answer with a lethal counterattack.

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11-03-2016, 07:53 PM

Squire seems a bit mana-heavy for the effect? Maybe I'm wrong.

EunB, pocari79: How were your experiences with Sanctum Prelate? I've been pretty skeptical myself based on testing it in small local venues, but I'd like to hear how it performed in an actual high-level tournament.

EunB

11-04-2016, 01:01 AM

Squire seems a bit mana-heavy for the effect? Maybe I'm wrong.

I agree. It's an interesting lock with Displacer, but seems win-more as Displacer can outright win games on its own.

EunB, pocari79: How were your experiences with Sanctum Prelate? I've been pretty skeptical myself based on testing it in small local venues, but I'd like to hear how it performed in an actual high-level tournament.

I love it. It single-handedly won me multiple games against Grixis Delver. It's also okay vs D&T or Miracles, and it's the #1 card I want to see vs Omni-Sneak. It's much easier to get out early on 2 vs Lands to shut them off of Loam/Pfire and postboard they can't KGrip it.

In my opinion it is a non-negotiable maindeck card. 2-of feels right.

pocari79

11-04-2016, 08:04 AM

EunB, pocari79: How were your experiences with Sanctum Prelate? I've been pretty skeptical myself based on testing it in small local venues, but I'd like to hear how it performed in an actual high-level tournament.

I like it a lot. It makes your combo matchups a lot better and gives you an extra edge against control matchups. Just make sure to not attack with it so it doesn't get blocked by a flash Snapcaster Mage. Also if you get Displacer with Sanctum, you can start blanking different CC on demand which is pretty nice.

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11-04-2016, 09:38 AM

Interesting! I suppose I should give the card a second chance. Thank you both for your quick replies.

Toward pocari79's earlier gripe about Warping Wail, I was arguing that it was kind of a necessary evil, but now I wonder if you can play without any maindeck removal and just play mana, disruptive creatures, and Chalices. Theoretically, in my list, Prelate would do a lot of the work that Warping Wail's counterspell mode does, and you already have an extra way to interact with creatures relative to others' lists with the Priest+Displacer combo.

I also want to comment about Containment Priest, which I've argued is a good maindeck card, but really hasn't stimulated much discussion here. To reiterate:

1) It synergizes well in a number of ways (Priest + Displacer obviously, Priest + Jailer means they don't get their creature back even if they hit you, you're always happy to crew Copter with Priest).
2) It's acceptable in game 1 versus a lot of decks just as a flash bear; starting some sideboard cards over it in game 1, especially cards that can't pressure your opponent directly, can cause you to run out of gas.
3) It's good versus two of the most popular combo decks (Sneak/Show, Reanimator), and a solid tool against D+T's flicker/Vial shenanigans. BR Reanimator and D+T are likely to become a little more popular following their strong showings at the Eternal Weekends, so I think Priest is well positioned in general.

It's been good for me, and I encourage you all to at least test the card in the maindeck.

I'll test this in the coming weeks to see how much Wail was really needed. It's possible this is a bad idea:

2 Containment Priest
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Palace Jailer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Reality Smasher
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer

3 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Armageddon
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Key to the City
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

EunB

11-04-2016, 11:44 PM

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11-05-2016, 01:25 AM

Regarding Warping Wail -- I think it's a perfect catchall and am high on it. I consider even going up to 3 in the main. There are many relevant sorceries to counter, but the main reason I like it is early maindeck removal. Young Pyromancer, Unflipped Delver, Deathrite, and most importantly, Stoneforge. Early Batterskull is such a pain to deal with.

As for Containment Priest in the main, I don't dislike it since I side it in in a lot of matchups, but I'd say it's meta dependent. Versus some pretty big players like Miracles it's just a do-nothing card so that's what's stopping me. Also be careful against just running it out vs D&T since they can use their Flickerwisps to exile your creatures.I also enjoy Wail's versatility, but I'm not sure it's the strongest option. Basically, there are two ways in which I feel Warping Wail falls short.

First, the removal mode is useful, but narrow. I frequently find myself in situations where I'm stuck with a Wail in hand versus Serra Avenger or True-Name or whatever, and even though Wail has some other target, the thing which is killing me isn't one of them.

Second, it just doesn't feel like it meshes with the overall game plan for the first few turns. What the deck is good at is getting out ahead of the opponent; you want to slam disruptive creatures as fast as you can. Conversely, the deck kind of sucks when you're playing from behind. When your opponent already has developed their board or mana, both Thalias look much weaker. Thought-Knot Seer is at its best on turn 2. And so on. Taking an early turn off for a removal spell or holding up countermagic just feels like you're giving up some initiative, and I don't know if it's too much of a sacrifice. For instance, it usually feels "wrong" to me to spend my first or second turn tapping out to remove a Deathrite Shaman, and if the Wail ends up getting countered, I feel really behind. What I'm wondering is if it's better to try and fight their threat by presenting more of your own threats. i.e. try to overpower them instead of reacting.

Replacing Wail with Prelate in my list covers the "counter target sorcery" mode in a way that progresses your board, but I admit that not having access to a bona-fide removal spell might be too dangerous. I just want to see firsthand how much work Wail is really doing.

Don't have anything to add really to the discussion of Priest; it's certainly better in some metas than others. I agree that not shooting yourself in the foot is a real concern. You have to show some care against decks where it can be used against you.

ChemicalBurns

11-06-2016, 01:01 AM

Ok everyone, this has been sitting on my HD for sometime but wanted to refine it with recent additions etc. and clean it up for the primer. Now that my exams are done, here it is. Feedback, feedback, feedback would be appreciated and I'll modify the primer with any additions for card choices, anythings I should cut or any sample decklists people want to contribute. Matchup analysis would also be nice, though I'll get on to that in due time. Also, should have a banner at some stage too. But for now, let's make this as refined as possible. Feel free to PM me about it.

Here it is!

History

“Tale as old as time
True as it can be…”

Combining white cards with a Sol Land mana base has been a long tradition of Legacy, with decks such as white Stax and Angel Stompy existing at the beginning of the format to cripple opponents with prison cards like Chalice of the Void and then finishing them off with Exalted Angel. Furthermore, Death & Taxes has been a mainstay of the Legacy format with its disruptive suite of small creatures that beat down the opponent, and has influenced white prison decks since its inception. This deck, whatever one wants to call it, is a successor to these shells in the modern Legacy format.

Two particular sets provided this shell with its tools to become a metagame contender.

Oath of the Gatewatch rocketed into the format with the core of the Eldrazi deck making incredible waves across Modern (leading to Eye of Ugin’s banning there) and, after Pro Tour Oath of Gatewatch’s dust settled, in Legacy, with Eldrazi Stompy debuting in the limelight of the SCG Open in Philadelphia on February 27, 2015. The deck immediately became a mainstay of the Legacy format, surprising for a Stompy deck, and although powerful, suffered from a few problems afterwards – susceptibility to mana denial due to its fragile mana base, middling filler cards such as Matter Reshaper and Endless One, and difficulties at breaking through certain board stalls. The later addition of Eldrazi Displacer certainly aided in remedying some of these problems, but created unfortunate sacrifices in the mana base and some inconsistency. Overall, the Eldrazi Stompy archetype coalesced into most popularly pure colourless versions with a relatively stagnant threat suite, leaning hard on the quality of Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher, along with the lock of Chalice of the Void, to win. It nonetheless remained a Tier 1 contender.

In Vintage, however, was innovation in the archetype found. The Power Nine Challenge of MtGO on May 28th, 2015 found itself accommodating three “White Eldrazi” lists in its Top 8. These lists eschewed the expected partnership of Workshops and Eldrazi and instead looked towards… Basic Plains?!

Creatures: (25)
3 Containment Priest
4 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Reality Smasher
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Vryn Wingmare

Non-Creature Spells: (12)
1 Black Lotus
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
4 Thorn of Amethyst

Lands: (23)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Karakas
5 Plains
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: (15)
1 Containment Priest
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 City of Traitors
2 Disenchant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trinisphere

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is the most important addition to this list, and certainly “Thalia plus Eldrazi” is the inspiration for the subsequent Legacy shell. The hallmark creature of many of Legacy’s white, creature-based decks such as Death & Taxes and Maverick, Eldrazi can also borrow as an excellent early play to cripple cantripping opponents or combo decks alike while continuing to cast its powerful beatsticks unhindered, as long as the mana base is tweaked to accommodate her. She is an excellent standalone threat many times better than Matter Reshaper and Mimic who, despite being synergistic, are often just creatures with power and toughness and little disruptive potential, which is incredibly important in the Legacy format. Other Death & Taxes favourites Phyrexian Revoker and Containment Priest also were to become staples within the Legacy edition of White Eldrazi, their interactions with Eldrazi Displacer of particular note.

The mana base is also important to consider – a pile of basic Plains, some Karakas, Ancient Tombs, Eldrazi Temple, Wastelands and no Eye of Ugin. Eye, previously seen as the most crucial land in Eldrazi, limits the deck building options available, as playing non-Eldrazi has a significant cost, as Eye adds essentially no mana for them. Once gone the deck is free to alter its threat suite to be more robust, as well as incorporate mana which is less prone to disruption from Wasteland or Blood Moon in the form of basic lands. The mana base underpins the deck’s philosophy: be less prone to mana disruption than typical Eldrazi, and be able to cast higher quality threats.

Eldritch Moon brought the deck its next biggest boon: Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Although somewhat fair when cast on the third turn (as it is done in typical Death & Taxes shells), if accelerated out early via Sol Lands or mana acceleration, Thalia, Heretic Cathar can force opponents to be unable to interact for at least a few turns and stress their mana further in addition to Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Furthermore, her forcing of creatures to come into play tapped perfectly complements the game plan of aggressively finishing the opponent off with large creatures, that can now attack unhindered thanks to her.

Subsequent 5-0s on Magic Online after Eldritch Moon’s release thanks to players such as Disgruntled_Elk and romariovidal then occurred, touting the list below:

Lands: (26)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Caves of Koilos
3 City of Traitors
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
1 Crystal Vein
3 Plains
4 Wasteland

Non-Creature Spells: (12)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures: (22)
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Thought-Knot Seer

Sideboard: (15)
3 Rest in Peace
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Containment Priest
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Warping Wail

Numbers were refined and other cards investigated, and we come now to a core of cards that make up this deck.

But what do we call it?

Although I particularly like names such as “White Stompy” or “White Eldrazi” since these are quite plainly descriptive, “Thalia Stompy”, “Thalia Tribal” and “Death & Staxes” have been thrown around. Of these flavourful names though, the most descriptive and fitting one I feel is:

“Tale as old as time
Song as old as rhyme…”

Beauty and the Beast.

Thalia and Eldrazi.

Whatever you want to call this deck, this combination of lock pieces (in both creature and non-creature form), explosive mana and effective attackers certainly is, and will be, a powerful force to be reckoned with in the modern Legacy metagame.

Main Deck

Creatures

Disruptive Creatures

These creatures, although most are very serviceable in combat, are primarily within the deck to disrupt the opponent, by either taxing their mana or being precision tools to prevent the opponent from casting or utilising certain spells.

“Look there she goes a girl who's strange but special
A most peculiar mademoiselle”

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

http://i.imgur.com/rY2VJLr.jpg

There is little to be said about Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and how powerful she is within the Legacy format. She is typically lights out for many combo decks, particularly Storm, when she lands on the second turn, her tax being a difficult mountain for their spell chains to overcome. However, the texture of the Legacy format emphasises the strength of cantrips such as Brainstorm and Ponder as efficient and powerful card selection – but Thalia makes these effective no longer. Combining her with other mana denial elements she can actually lock certain opponents out from casting any spells at all, leaving them helpless as your first striker and others take them from twenty to zero. However, she can be quite a liability against other decks that are creature-dense, and her status as a Legendary creature sometimes causes awkward hands. Also note that the few non-creature spells we play are taxed too, which can occasionally cause issues.

Play 3-4.

Thalia, Heretic Cathar

http://i.imgur.com/Bn8XAf0.jpg

The other, newer, Thalia, had difficulties initially finding a place within the Legacy format, but here does she truly shine. In a format dominated by fetchlands (that often fetch non-basic lands), Thalia, Heretic Cathar, if she hits the battlefield early enough, which this deck is well equipped to do, can cause the opponent to be set back at least a whole turn, and potentially two. She combines well with our other mana denials elements too, to set the opponent even further back. Furthermore, she is excellent within combat, thanks to her second line of text allowing her to cut through potential blockers which come into play tapped; though just being a 3/2 first striker is also very reasonable. Her second ability also can cause headaches for decks such as Elves, Reanimator and Sneak & Show. Again, her Legendary status can be frustrating, but having her in openers to accelerate out on turn one or two is important to utilise her full potential.

Play 3-4.

“So, you've come to stare at the beast, have you?”

Thought-Knot Seer

http://i.imgur.com/1UzPHSW.jpg

Thought-Knot Seer is by far the most powerful Eldrazi printed within Oath of the Gatewatch, and is one of the major payoffs for including Sol Lands and Eldrazi Temple within the mana base, allowing Seer to be deployed as early as turn two. Shredding away a card from the opponent’s hand is incredibly powerful at disrupting both fair and unfair opponents alike, and can often rip away the card that would save the opponent from the prison being imposed upon them. He is also incredibly difficult to kill, being resistant to both Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay, some of the most commonly played removal spells of the format. His four power makes him excellent in combat too, attacking through most board states. There is little downside to this guy.

Play 4.

Phyrexian Revoker

http://i.imgur.com/o3rfPaz.jpg

A common addition in high numbers due to his ability to disable many of the powerful abilities within the format, such as Sensei’s Divining Top, Deathrite Shaman, Aether Vial and equipment, all of which can prove problematic for the deck. He also ensures that the deck has a smooth, lean curve, filling out the two drop slot nicely and castable off a single Sol Land (especially potent on the draw). However, in certain metagames his effect can be negligible, and numbers can be reduced.

Play 2-4.

Lodestone Golem

http://i.imgur.com/uHbRZis.jpg

Lodestone adds essentially another Sphere effect, in addition to Thalia, to put the final nail in the coffin and ensure the opponent cannot function in combination with our mana denial. He also attacks very effectively, his five power representing a four turn clock alone. However, Lodestone’s susceptibility to Lightning Bolt can represent a big tempo loss, and his tax can be detrimental to the deployment of some of our own threats. Although a solid choice, additional Sol Lands are often required to support him, and certain higher cost threats must be excluded lest Golem make them even more difficult to cast.

Play 0-4, keeping in mind that certain concessions must be made to both the mana base and threats if included.

Other Options:
These are options to include for additional disruption elements if desired. Generally played as 2-ofs at maximum.

Sanctum Prelate is an incredibly powerful option, as not only a redundant Chalice of the Void effect (which is often uncounterable thanks to Cavern of Souls) but also as a card to lock out whatever answer the opponent has ready to crawl out of the prison. However, she certainly requires boosted white sources for her 1WW mana cost – typically cutting into Sol Lands and reducing the deck’s explosiveness.
Containment Priest hoses reanimation strategies, Sneak & Show, Aether Vial and Green Sun’s Zenith, but she does so much more. In combination with Eldrazi Displacer, Containment Priest gives the deck an incredible ability to push through problematic board stalls by creating a machine-gun for 2C. She is also serviceable as just a simple ambush viper at times. Can sometimes see play as a two-of main, but should certainly be part of the seventy-five somewhere.
Vryn Wingmare fulfils a similar role to Lodestone as additional Sphere effects, and also has flying, which this deck significantly lacks. In a deck with fewer white sources than expected, however, Wingmare can be difficult to cast, with the mana base leaning hard on Cavern of Souls, which is generally set on Human or Eldrazi. Also, additional Sphere effects can be detrimental to casting the few non-creature spells in the deck, such as a timely piece of removal or equipment.
Aven Mindcensor works similarly: a flying threat, poor synergy with Cavern of Souls and some amount of mana base disruption, though it can certainly easily be played around. Good against decks that require frequent searching though, such as Stoneblade decks, Storm, 12Post and Nic Fit.
Spirit of the Labyrinth attacks cantripping decks effectively. A reasonably potent card that can be deployed on turn one with a piece of acceleration, but its lack of synergy with our Caverns and its fragile body makes it less serviceable as a choice.
Leonin Arbiter fulfils a similar role to Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Thalia, Heretic Cathar, being a powerful play possible on turn one that can really cripple the mana of an opponent. Unlike these though, Arbiter is an atrocious topdeck that has a weak body in combat and a negligible effect. Again, Cavern dissynergy is an issue too.
Glowrider is like Wingmare except easily castable off Cavern… But his body is atrocious in combat and is similarly poor as a topdeck like Arbiter.

Utility Creatures and Beaters

These can be thought of as “fair” creatures (and, I know, some of these certainly can at times feel unfair), and by that I mean creatures that are primarily concerned with creature combat, whether it be due to their above-average power and toughness, or their significant abilities.

Eldrazi Displacer

http://i.imgur.com/6wZuNOS.jpg

Castable off Eldrazi Temple or a Sol Land plus a single white mana, Eldrazi Displacer looks very average initially, having a middling body as a 3/3 and an ability which seems like a cute bit of utility. However, Eldrazi Displacer is by far the deck’s saving grace in fair matchups, breaking up stalled board states by tapping down blockers, blinking other creatures in the deck away from removal or defending against a horde of attackers if flooding out (don’t forget, Eldrazi Temple pays for 2 of the mana required for his activation). He also has utility against certain combo decks, such as Sneak & Show or Reanimator, who rely on getting a huge threat into play.

He offers a lot of different tricks with our other creatures too:

Blinking Thought-Knot Seer allows for control of the opponents hand, letting them draw from Seers trigger first and then snatching away whatever looks good.
Blinking Phyrexian Revoker or Sanctum Prelate can shut down the opponent from casting spells or activating abilities at instant speed by changing what they’re set to.
Any creature with an enters-the-battlefield effect becomes substantially more potent, retriggering with Displacer.
Containment Priest in play makes Displacer become a machine-gun that permanently exiles opposing creatures – just remember not to target your own!

However, Displacer can be mediocre against combo unconcerned with getting creatures into play, and loses a lot of utility when drawn in multiples (additional copies are essentially just 3/3 vanillas).

Play 3-4.

Reality Smasher

http://i.imgur.com/WjNyOuW.jpg

Typically the top end of the deck’s curve, Reality Smasher, the hallmark four-of in Eldrazi Stompy, also makes a nice fit here, breaking through blockers, trampling in for the last points of damage and being an excellent topdeck to swing a race. However, unlike Eldrazi, the mana base has a bit more difficulty reaching that golden five mana for Smasher, and hence multiples can easily get stranded in opening hands, particularly if the deck is hit by some Wastelands. If playing Lodestone Golem, Reality Smasher becomes no longer an option, as a six mana Smasher is very difficult to get into play.

Play 0-3, potentially 4 if running at least ten Sol Lands (including Temple).

Stoneforge Mystic

http://i.imgur.com/1aULS6A.jpg

Although not a Human, Stoneforge has proven herself to be an excellent Legacy card for any deck utilising white mana, and equipment synergises incredibly well with the many robust bodies in the deck to pick it up. Stoneforge does gravitate lists to be more controlling, however, instead of curving out and killing the opponent quickly, which certainly can be a liability in combo matchups (but a boon against fair matchups). As aforementioned the deck leans heavily on Cavern of Souls too, often leaving the deck struggling to activate Stoneforge’s ability with white mana. As such, having a heavier amount of Plains is important in lists using her.

Play 2-4, with 1 Batterskull and 1 Umezawa’s Jitte. She is also an excellent sideboard option.

Other Options:
Again, 1 or 2-ofs are standard issue for these inclusions.

Palace Jailer is an excellent creature in midrange-control matchups, where boards can get clogged and Jailer can exile that Tarmogoyf gumming up the ground and ensure your Eldrazi keep attacking. He also synergises incredibly with Displacer and is great against fatty decks. Becoming the monarch is also a strong grind effect on a board where you are ahead or at parity (or against creature-light decks such as Miracles), though can be risky if playing against aggressive decks such as Delver variants. He also pushes into the higher region of the curve, requires double white and isn’t accelerated off Eldrazi Temple. Potential main deck or sideboard inclusion.
Blade Splicer is another creature nicely synergistic with Eldrazi Displacer (creating a bunch of Golems) but is more significant in versions utilising Lodestone Golem. Golem’s body, which trades with a lot of Legacy threats, becomes much more threatening as a 5/3 first striker, slaying Tarmgoyfs and opposing Eldrazi attacking or defending. However, Splicer can be somewhat low impact on her own.
Recruiter of the Guard is an option if one wants to take the deck in a more grindy, toolbox direction, generally replacing the fast beatdown endgame of Smasher. Our Sol Lands make it more castable than in other shells, and it synergises nicely with Displacer, getting a number of situational bullets, while also just being a tutor for our core of Thalias. It’s quite slow though, so I’d shy away from it.
Vehicles such as Smuggler’s Copter, Fleetwheel Cruiser and Skysovereign, Consul Flagship have been up for consideration. The higher-end Vehicles tend to be taxed by Thalias, and are not recommended, though Copter comes down early and filters the draws of the deck very nicely, pitching useless Legends or Diamonds. However, Copter is quite a poor late-game topdeck despite its early game strength. Certainly as a one- or two-of it can be a consideration.

Non-Creature Spells

Lock Pieces

Chalice of the Void

Chalice of the Void is one of the deck’s most powerful turn one plays (alongside turn one Thalia), and is hallmark of any Ancient Tomb deck in Legacy. Cutting off all one mana spells, while not hindering us in the slightest, cripples so many of the cantrip-dense decks in the Legacy format. Also note that Chalice can be set on other modes too. Chalice on zero can do work against the trinkets of Storm, and Chalice on two can be very helpful in certain matchups while our two drops can still be cast through Cavern of Souls. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben also taxes Chalice, so remember a Chalice with X = 1 will cost three mana. Something to note. Chalice is the most potent card in so many Legacy matchups, but will often be an easy sideboard out in others, where a Chalice on 1 only hits a few cards.

Play 4.

Other Options:
There is little need for additional lock pieces in the deck as, other than Chalice, the rest of the locks are fulfilled via our creatures, such as the Thalias – that have the benefit of attacking the opponent to death, too. Nonetheless, there is potential other pieces that can be utilised if desired.

Trinisphere can be accelerated out on turn one with a Sol Land and piece of accelration, and like in other Stompy decks past it can ruin many opponents from playing Magic at all. However, Trinisphere interacts poorly with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (essentially neutering her), who does a good enough job of taxing the opponent’s spells anyway.
Crucible of Worlds is an exciting old-school favourite, that can allow the Wasteland-locking of your opponent. It also synergises very nicely with Mox Diamond, to give that card essentially no downside. However, in certain situations it can be a bit low-impact, especially since most lists will not be using man-lands.
Suppression Field is similar to Leonin Arbiter in some ways, neutering fetchlands, but also can screw over other activated abilities. It doesn’t attack and is an incredibly poor topdeck, though.
Tangle Wire, the Vintage powerhouse, is pretty exciting in this list as once you are ahead on board a Wire can completely lock out the opponent – especially with Thalia, Heretic Cathar. If you’re behind though, Wire can look very mediocre, especially if your other lock pieces have been broken apart. A speculative choice.

Removal

Dismember

Dismember is the easiest removal to slot in the deck. Costing one mana and four life to kill almost anything in the format, while actually having a converted mana cost of three to get around Chalice makes it an easy shoe-in. However, the life loss can add up (especially with Ancient Tomb) so use sparingly. A black mana for it can be cast off Mox Diamond or Lotus Petal, if needed.

Play 0-2.

Warping Wail

Although primarily used for its removal mode against small creatures such as Deathrite Shaman and Stoneforge Mystic, Warping Wail offers further utility to the deck. Countering sorceries can range from countering a simple Ponder to countering a combo spell such as Show and Tell or Reanimate, and the Scion created can offer bodies to sacrifice to Liliana of the Veil, the ability to ramp into larger threats like Reality Smasher. It also provides colourless mana when under a Blood Moon, which is very useful to make your Seers castable again. A very flexible spell.

Play 1-2.

Umezawa’s Jitte

Although I mentioned Jitte with Stoneforge Mystic, as a standalone card Jitte is very serviceable as a flexible piece of equipment for killing small creatures, making our bevy of bodies incredibly threatening and gaining life if needed. Note Jitte’s synergy with first strikers – they will deal first strike damage and get counters before opposing creatures deal damage to them – allowing Jitte to pump up our creature or shrink opposing ones to win combat. Jitte of course gets worse in multiples as a Legendary piece of equipment, and also can be a pretty miserable topdeck when behind and have no creatures to equip to.

Play 0-2.

Other Options:
I will outline here potential broad, main deck removal spells; note that these, and more narrow removal spells, are also options for the Sideboard.

Declaration in Stone is a relative newcomer, as a removal spell that gets around Chalice and unconditionally removes any creature desired – and is especially great against tokens. However, the Clue leftover means the opponent won’t be behind on cards, but this can be remedied by our incredibly aggressive deck giving them no time to crack it. Somewhat maindeckable, but certainly a sideboard consideration.
Oblivion Ring is the old standard, and, although fine, suffers now against Abrupt Decay which can blow you out. It’s also a little mana intensive. Still flexible enough to warrant some main deck slots if desired, as it can unconditionally deal with creatures and any other weird permanent that may pop up.
Council's Judgment is the new Oblivion Ring, and is another great option for the main deck or sideboard. Not only does it remove problematic non-land permanents, but it also gets around protection effects (read: True-Name Nemesis). Unfortunately, the mana cost can be quite severe, since a 1WW spell that is non-Human can be tough to accomplish on time.

Acceleration

Acceleration ensures that we can bring our devastating plays as early as possible. There are two primary options – choose one or the either. If you use both, expect your deck to be incredibly high-variance.

Mox Diamond

Diamond is great in our deck that generally has a high land count, allowing for some explosive starts with up to three mana on turn one. More importantly though, it is a stable white source in our deck that can often have coloured mana troubles. Diamond is a very poor topdeck in the lategame though, being essentially a brick. Also note it is exposed to cards like Phyrexian Revoker and Abrupt Decay, so be aware that you can get suddenly Stone Rained.

Play 3-4.

Lotus Petal

Lotus Petal is another viable option. Although not allowing for a consistent white source over the course of many turns, it does not require the discarding of a land for it to function, and it also functions as a piece of mana if topdecked. Its one-time burst of mana can lead to some blowouts if what you cast off it is countered though, and it also generally means that cards with double-white in their mana cost are harder to cast (as generally Petal will be blown early as a coloured mana source).

Play 3-4.

Lands

The deck is only possible via its mana base, which combines the older Sol Lands from Tempest block with more modern additions such as Eldrazi Temple to accelerate out threats faster than expected. It is also relatively robust, utilising basic lands, and can also disrupt opposing mana.

Ancient Tomb

Probably the most pivotal land in the deck, Ancient Tomb has been fuelling some powerful prison strategies in Legacy since its inception, and this is no different. Powering out turn one Chalice or turn one Thalia, Heretic Cathar is excellent. The life loss can add up though, so try to tap it as little as possible.

Play 4.

Eldrazi Temple

The other pseudo-Sol Land in the deck, this accelerates out Displacer and Seer very quickly with essentially no downside – otherwise it’s just a land that taps for colourless mana and still casts our other spells. Note that this can of course fuel Displacer’s ability too. The more Eldrazi you play (and generally, you’ll be playing a bunch) the more you’ll want this land, though if you’re going more white-intensive this is a trimmable land.

Play 3-4.

Cavern of Souls

Cavern of Souls is one of the other lynchpin lands of the deck, making our high-curve threats not cause us to get tempoed out, as we can make them uncounterable. It is generally set to either Human or Eldrazi, and hence including non-Human or Eldrazi creatures can put a strain on these and make the mana a bit difficult, especially if Cavern is being used as a coloured source. Also note that it can, of course, tap for colourless mana for Seer and Smasher, but if this is the only colourless source for your Eldrazi it will not make them uncounterable (as you’re not using Cavern’s first mana ability).

Play 4.

Wasteland

With the Thalias Wasteland becomes incredibly powerful at preventing the opposition from doing anything, as their mana becomes incredibly strained. Also great for killing utility lands. Unlike regular Eldrazi, which is often a pretty poor Wasteland deck (due to it often tapping for mana due to the deck’s higher curve), our leaner curve and more disruptive creatures makes it a great choice in our list. Again, if you need more white sources though this is a place to trim too, though it’s not recommended.

Play 3-4.

City of Traitors

A typical lynchpin of Stompy shells, City of Traitors is also excellent in these lists. However, since it can be somewhat unstable at times, compared to Tombs or Temples, running a full set is generally not recommended unless you want to go very all-in. If in need of additional white sources Cities can also be entirely cut, reducing explosiveness but increasing the consistency one can cast their spells.

Play 0-2.

Karakas

One of the best mono-white utility lands ever printed, we have two of our primary threats protectable at very little cost. Also note that the first striking Thalias can deal first strike damage and then be bounced back to essentially Fog attacks or do some other combat tricks. Karakas is also one of our best lands against decks such as Reanimator or Sneak & Show, where this timely land can bounce one of their monsters and undo all their hard work. Having pure white sources that are Wastelandable is a cost though, and being Legendary means you don’t want too many.

Run 2-3.

Plains

Basic Plains is one of the most powerful lands in Legacy, as Death & Taxes has continued to prove to us. Having stable mana sources that can’t be Wastelanded is excellent in a deck that can be as mana-hungry as this one. It also makes the deck much more impervious to Blood Moon, as only Seer and Smasher are locked out from being cast, as long as a basic Plains is in play. The number played will largely depend on how white-intensive your threat suite is – the more creatures with double-white in their mana cost, the more Plains you’ll want and the more you’ll want to cut away colourless lands.

Other Options:
Often one-ofs or two-ofs that can fill out utility slots in the mana base or replace certain core lands depending on the deckbuilding requirements.

Horizon Canopy can be painful, along with Tombs, but in the late game Canopy is an excellent card to mitigate flooding.
Caves of Koilos can act as additional white sources, but can also cast or activate our Eldrazi. It is Wastelandable and is a white source that gets cut off by Blood Moon though, so be careful. Generally we have enough colourless sources to cast our Eldrazi anyway.
Crystal Vein is another Sol Land options. An excellent budget option over City of Traitors that will actually be better in certain situations, since it can be reused as a generic colourless source. However, City is generally better in this slot.
Mishra’s Factory is the best man land ever printed, and can help pressure opposing control decks and wear equipment lying around nicely. It also is another colourless source for our Eldrazi. The slots are pretty tight in terms of colourless lands already though, and finding room for some of these is a little bit of a luxury.
Ghost Quarter is another colourless utility land. If you want a fifth Wasteland, it’s a great choice, as many Legacy decks don’t have any basic lands anyway. Also great if running Crucible. But again, slots are tight.
Sea Gate Wreckage is a nice card for long matchups, like Miracles, where we can often end up empty handed with a lot of mana. This let's us rebuild, but again, takes up precious coloured mana source slots.

Sideboard

Creature Removal

Swords to Plowshares is the best white removal spell, period. However, it conflicts with our game plan of Chalice of the Void. However, in certain matchups, such as against BGx or Death & Taxes, Chalice is very mediocre and cuttable, and having strong removal like Plow to bring in is well-appreciated. Against Delver decks though, where more removal is desired but Chalice is also strong, sideboard Plows does create dissynergy in the seventy-five.
Spatial Contortion is a great option against Delver decks, particularly Grixis, as well as against any other small creature decks. We can keep in our Chalices while still being able to easily kill a Delver poking us to death.
Blessed Alliance’s sacrifice effect is very valuable, eliminating problematic creatures like True-Name Nemesis or Progenitus that are usually untargetable. It can also be easily escalated thanks to our abundance of mana, acting as a combat trick and a lifegain spell too.
Valorous Stance is strong against Tarmgoyfs but more particularly Eldrazi, where Stance kills the majority of threats you care about there. It can also be a combat trick. Like Blessed Alliance its flexibility is appreciated, though Stance is a bit narrow.
Holy Light is the white -1/-1 effect. Although very costly (especially with a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in play), it can deal with True-Names and the Elves of the world if needed. Our Sol Land mana base makes it a bit more easily castable too.
Ratchet Bomb is another great, flexible card that can sweep away not only creatures (particularly tokens) but also other annoying permanents. Beware of blowing your own Chalice, Diamonds or creatures though, when blowing up tokens.

Artifact/Enchantment Destruction

Disenchant is the classic, and is great at blowing up threatening equipment mid-combat or snagging the weird enchantment or artifacts people will throw at you (like Moat or Ensnaring Bridge). I’d always run at least one in the seventy-five.
War Priest of Thune only deals with enchantments, but is uncounterable off Cavern of Souls set to Human.
Devout Witness does not kill artifacts or enchantments immediately, but can machine-gun down annoying permanents while you pitch lands or other low-impact cards once you untap with it. Again, it’s uncounterable off Cavern too.
Leonin Relic-Warder has a strict mana cost due to it being non-human, but can do some good work if you want a Disenchant effect on a creature. Particularly useful if tutorable.

Graveyard Hate

Rest in Peace is perhaps the best graveyard hate ever printed. Hosing both fair matchups relying on Tarmgoyfs and Deathrites, while also hosing the Dredge and Reanimators of the world. Run at least two in your seventy-five.
Faerie Macabre is a one-shot exile effect (getting around Chalice and being uncounterable) that can be decent to supplement our strong gravehate choices.
Tormod’s Crypt is generally mediocre compared to our other options, but it can certainly get out earlier than things such as RiP and Priest, which may be too slow in certain metagames.

Combo Hate

Most of the lock pieces mentioned in the main deck section can be utilised as sideboard combo hate slots. However, more dedicated pieces, particularly against Storm, can be found in the sideboard.

Mindbreak Trap functions as effective disruption against Storm-based combo. Many combo decks have an abundance of ways to beat our permanent-based disruption post-board, so having additional “counterspell”-based disruption diversifies our effects. Also ensures we aren’t soft to decks like Belcher or Oops, All Spells.
Thorn of Amethyst can be brought down on turn one off a Sol Land and similarly cripple like Chalice. This is important to get under discard on the play. However, it is just another piece of permanent-based hate that can be Decayed, bounced etc. It’s still a reasonable option.
Ethersworn Canonist, after Thalia, is the premier anti-Storm hatebear. Unlike Thorn or Trap though it will typically come down on turn two, but it does attack in and have synergy with Cavern. Not a bad choice.

Fair Trumps

These cards are key as haymakers in the late game that generate some form of card advantage or are threats that are incredibly difficult to kill. They are typically only strong against fair opponents and too slow against combo.

Mangara of Corondor, the Death & Taxes poster child, has some nice utility in this deck. Although once again double white can be an issue, Mangara + Displacer/Karakas can take over boardstates or just be a recurring Stone Rain.
Angels, ala those featured in Angel Stompy, can be utilised as top-end threats to fly over stalled boards. Although miserable against combo decks, they help crush fair matchups, particularly against BGx variants. Gisela, the Broken Blade and Baneslayer Angel (among others) are potential inclusions. Restoration Angel is easy on the mana, synergises nicely with ETB effects, saves our creatures from removal and is a great 3/4 flier to block and kill Delvers.
Powerful mana denial haymakers like Winter Orb or even Armageddon/Cataclysm can be used to break open matchups against control decks like Miracles. All we need to do is get ahead on board and then bust those lands. Orb in particular synergises very nicely with our Sol Lands and Mox Diamond.
Planeswalker bombs like Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar can break open control matchups too. Knight-Errant is great at letting our beaters fly over stalled boards or generate tokens when behind, while Gideon can anthem our team to win combat or just get in there himself.
Endbringer, like in Eldrazi, is a powerful late-game bomb, acting essentially like an Eldrazi planeswalker. We cannot accelerate him out as fast as Eldrazi can, but he is very castable and is certainly an option. Coercive Portal can be used a late-game draw engine instead if you don’t want it to be prone to removal.
Parallax Wave can be absurdly powerful in a few situations. It can demolish a stalled board to swing for the final points of damage, it can permanently exile creatures with Containment Priest, or, if all the Fading counters are removed, certain ETB effects of our creatures can also be re-triggered.
Austere Command although ambitious in mana cost (especially with Thalia) can do a lot of powerful things, particularly against a deck like Miracles. Destroy Counterbalance, wrath your Mentor army and leave me with a Thought-Knot? Sounds great! Quite ambitious though, run as a one-of at most in your sideboard.

Other

Worship can create some cringes for many of your opponents. Most of our creatures are difficult to remove, and hence Worship can lead to us being unable to lose in many matchups. We can mill out our opponent slowly with Displacer + Seer or hopefully somehow break through the board stall.

Splashes

Coming Soon

Sample Decklists

ChemicalBurns156's List

Creatures: (24)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Palace Jailer
2 Reality Smasher

Non-Creature Spells: (11)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Dismember
1 Warping Wail
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Lands: (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
6 Plains

Sideboard: (15)
3 Rest in Peace
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Containment Priest
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Disenchant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Palace Jailer
1 Batterskull

MD.Ghost's List

Creatures: (24)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Containment Priest
2 Palace Jailer
2 Reality Smasher

Non-Creature Spells: (11)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

Lands: (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
6 Plains
1 City of Traitors

Sideboard: (15)
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rest in Peace
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Batterskull

Matthew Harper 09/11/16

Lands: (25)
2 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland

Creatures: (24)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Vryn Wingmare
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

Non-Creature Spells: (11)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember

Sideboard: (15)
1 Armageddon
2 Disenchant
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
1 Dismember

Michael Scheffenacker 09/11/16

http://i.imgur.com/EX2R5E0.jpg

Mikebrav 18/11/16
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/513212

Water_Wizard 17/11/16
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/512898

Matchups

Coming Soon

Coverage

White Stompy vs. Affinity
@2:02
https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/90324134

WR Stompy on Kent Ketter's Hot Takes
https://www.cardhoarder.com/content/hot-takes-with-kent-ketter-hateful-8-191

WR Stompy (Bobby Birmingham) vs. Shardless BUG (Jonathan Orr)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEAlvPr5SY