[State of the Art 2016] by Mark Rosewater

[Lemnear]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/state-design-2016-2016-08-29

MaRos latest release lf the series looking at WotCs second spin on Zendikar & Innistrad.

[Zombie]

Meh. I'd like more things in the vein of Ravnica and Lorwyn. That is: The world. Not Power Rangers.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Are you disrespecting the power rangers, cause I'll travel through the internet to hit you with a megazord

[Barook]

Are you disrespecting the power rangers, cause I'll travel through the internet to hit you with a megazord
Having an actual construct/golem megazord to fight of planar threats would still be better than Chandra going "LOL BBQ" on the villains.

Devoid was a terrible "mechanic". It was just there for the sake of being there. Why exactly couldn't they use tribal again? Why do they consider it a mistake? I'd love to play Spatial Contortion or Warping Wail of Eldrazi Temple (as they're clearly Eldrazi spells) but can't because the whole thing is a terrible design clusterfuck.

[Lemnear]

"game too complex & too many mechanics" -> just one kicker-variant per block from now on

[Barook]

"game too complex & too many mechanics" -> just one kicker-variant per block from now on
Let's play a game: How many new mechanics from recent sets can a Sourcer name AND tell what they do without looking them up?

Lately, they churn out so much forgettable jank that it becomes hard to care about mechanics, especially when they introduced and abandoned them within one set.

[thecrav]

Meh. I'd like more things in the vein of Ravnica and Lorwyn. That is: The world. Not Power Rangers.

Unfortunately, I suspect the absolute minimum amount of time for the Jacetice league is the movie's release date + a couple years :/


"game too complex & too many mechanics" -> just one kicker-variant per block from now on

I actually find this more confusing. EDH or Modern people tell me a card has XYZ and I have no idea what they're talking about. Then it turns out, it's kicker but with three words changed or it's a simple effect that never needed a keyword.


Let's play a game: How many new mechanics from recent sets can a Sourcer name AND tell what they do without looking them up?

Lately, they churn out so much forgettable jank that it becomes hard to care about mechanics, especially when they introduced and abandoned them within one set.

Only using Standard, I was able to think of two. Here's a cheat sheet, using the mechanics listed on MTGSalvation's wiki and not double-listing any mechanics. (http://i.imgur.com/DlHRxeI.png) It's a total of 19 "new" mechanics.

[rufus]

,,,Why exactly couldn't they use tribal again? Why do they consider it a mistake?...

Instead of allowing existing non-creature types with creature subtypes, they created the 'tribal' type.

Roughly speaking tribal is like devoid, a word that shouldn't be on cards in the first place, but tribal also has associated rules baggage.

[phonics]

Let's play a game: How many new mechanics from recent sets can a Sourcer name AND tell what they do without looking them up?

Lately, they churn out so much forgettable jank that it becomes hard to care about mechanics, especially when they introduced and abandoned them within one set.

Its because they are so afraid of printing broken mechanics that they just throw a ton of uninspired, barely explored filler mechanics at the wall and hope a couple stick, they aren't meant to be powerful, or even really interesting most of the time, but just be gimicky enough to prevent standard from becoming too stale. Just look at how formulaic the planeswalkers have become recently, all those 4-5 mana planeswalkers with a +loyalty card advantage and -loyalty removal abilities. I remember how excited I was that they were going to make an enchantment block, and look at how that turned out.

[Lemnear]

Let's play a game: How many new mechanics from recent sets can a Sourcer name AND tell what they do without looking them up?

Lately, they churn out so much forgettable jank that it becomes hard to care about mechanics, especially when they introduced and abandoned them within one set.

I actually find this more confusing. EDH or Modern people tell me a card has XYZ and I have no idea what they're talking about. Then it turns out, it's kicker but with three words changed or it's a simple effect that never needed a keyword.

Honestly the last three mechanics which stick with me were Miracle, Delve and Prowess (which itself is ridiculous as Keyword). I think, I have to look up like 80% of the mechanics released in the last ten years, because WotC didn't care to develop mechanics even within a set. Fateful Hour is an amazing comeback-mechanic, but saw print on only 7 cards total (3 common, 3 uncommon, 1 rare) so there was a lot of potential wasted as usual. The only contant mechanic we see are indeed dozens of creature specific kicker-variants


Its because they are so afraid of printing broken mechanics that they just throw a ton of uninspired, barely explored filler mechanics at the wall and hope a couple stick, they aren't meant to be powerful, or even really interesting most of the time, but just be gimicky enough to prevent standard from becoming too stale. Just look at how formulaic the planeswalkers have become recently, all those 4-5 mana planeswalkers with a +loyalty card advantage and -loyalty removal abilities. I remember how excited I was that they were going to make an enchantment block, and look at how that turned out.

No, its because they tack their mechanics 80% of the time to creatures which raises the manacost of the creatures to non-Legacy regions. Even your mentioned enchantment-block is a prime example of WotC only caring for creatures due to the Limited formats.

We had big sets of 220+ cards with less than 15% of the cards NOT having the word "creature" printed on them in the last years

[LarsLeif]

I think taking a Legacy-perspective on rating the inventiveness of new mechanics will just leave you dissatisfied. I know that most dedicated limited players have had great times with the mechanics during the recent years, and every time I get around to playing some limited I also enjoy it a lot. Even mechanics with very low power level and complexity becomes very skill intensive in the right environment. Also, as MaRo mentions - complexity and power level are related, but not on a 1:1 basis. Furthermore, remember that the main target group for magic products is not seasoned gamers, but newer, less experienced players. That also affects what formats are receiving the most testing from R&D.

I am personally pretty happy that they didn't continue the trend of printing awesome, complicated cards (Time Spiral block etc). While I would have enjoyed that personally, I am more happy that they identified that they were limiting the ability for new players to get a good grasp of the game, and took measures (New world order) to rectify this. The game is in a better state because of this, although it means less goodies for us eternal players in standard legal sets. I look forward to more legacy candy from non standard-legal sets however, the new Conspiracy cards seem enticing (and at a whole different power level) for example.

[Lemnear]

The question is why the result of NWO is that you get better and cheaper effects on a body than on every other cardtype, rendering non-creature cards near obsolete. Just look at the Monarch-Mechanic as an example.

[LarsLeif]

Like Collected Company, Kozilek's Return, all the PW's, Languish etc? Or Dromoka's Command? Or Like DTT and Treasure Cruise? Or like Jeskai Ascendancy? Seriously, took me like 2 secs to come up with that stuff, and I promise you the list can be made very long. Yes, magic is more centered around creatures now, but there are still very good non-creature spells running around.

[MorphBerlin]

Yeah right now the strenght of creatures is kinda annoying atm moment. You don't play spells anymore you just play the creatures they are printed on nowadays (Reflector mage, Spell Queller, Prelate). Why they don't print any nice new removal tools in non-standard set is not really understandable for me.

[Lemnear]

Like Collected Company, Kozilek's Return, all the PW's, Languish etc? Or Dromoka's Command? Or Like DTT and Treasure Cruise? Or like Jeskai Ascendancy? Seriously, took me like 2 secs to come up with that stuff, and I promise you the list can be made very long. Yes, magic is more centered around creatures now, but there are still very good non-creature spells running around.

TC & DTT are banned and the rest of your named cards are focused on creatures like I said.

[Echelon]

Meh, as long as Nic Fit isn't the dominant deck there's no need to bitch. It's not as if that deck is even remotely a threat to anyStorm or Miracles, even though WotC is pushing creatures.

[jmlima]

Meh, as long as Nic Fit isn't the dominant deck there's no need to bitch. It's not as if that deck is even remotely a threat to anyStorm or Miracles, even though WotC is pushing creatures.

Wouldn't Maverick be a more likely candidate?

[Echelon]

Wouldn't Maverick be a more likely candidate?

Let a man dream, will you? I just want to be able to bring a Siege Rhino to a Storm fight and walk away the victor. Is that so much to ask?

[Lemnear]

Meh, as long as Nic Fit isn't the dominant deck there's no need to bitch. It's not as if that deck is even remotely a threat to anyStorm or Miracles, even though WotC is pushing creatures.

NicFit is a pile of junk aside Explorer/GSZ/Therapy. It doesn't seem like anyone has a clear image of what to build on that foundation. Some go Jund with Punishing Fire (total nonsense as its not working well with Explorer), some go Fatty beatdown + Walkers and the next bunch of people try to ramp further with Birthing Pod and Eldritch Evolution (wondering why they draw all the clunky fatties).

The deck needs a complete structural overhaul, starting with a metagame analysis to determine the third color or if its even needed in the first place, followed by exploring how you can profit from the mana-scaling ability of the deck without running high-cost chaff which fucks over the performance stability

[Echelon]

NicFit is a pile of junk aside Explorer/GSZ/Therapy. It doesn't seem like anyone has a clear image of what to build on that foundation. Some go Jund with Punishing Fire (total nonsense as its not working well with Explorer), some go Fatty beatdown + Walkers and the next bunch of people try to ramp further with Birthing Pod and Eldritch Evolution (wondering why they draw all the clunky fatties).

The deck needs a complete structural overhaul, starting with a metagame analysis to determine the third color or if its even needed in the first place, followed by exploring how you can profit from the mana-scaling ability of the deck without running high-cost chaff which fucks over the performance stability

Yes, but it's just so much fun dammit :laugh:.

[Lemnear]

Yes, but it's just so much fun dammit :laugh:.

I am sure there is a middle-way between fun and losing with fatties in hand

[colo]

Why they don't print any nice new removal tools in non-standard set is not really understandable for me.

How could a "removal tool" be better than (or even just up to par to) Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Abrupt Decay, Supreme Verdict, or Terminus? I think the game's more than fine in that regard.

[Zombie]

How could a "removal tool" be better than (or even just up to par to) Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Abrupt Decay, Supreme Verdict, or Terminus? I think the game's more than fine in that regard.

By being a green Elf, even 0/1 is fine. >:)

[LarsLeif]

TC & DTT are banned and the rest of your named cards are focused on creatures like I said.

Not in standard they weren't. Stop taking the eternal perspective when discussing whether or not spells are too bad/too focused on creatures. There are always a lot of powerful spells in standard and limited that are not creatures or focused on creatures. Hell, It wasn't that long ago that a creatureless, almost win condition-less deck won the standard pro tour.

I'm not arguing against the fact that standard and limited has a clear creature focus, that just turns newer players on more than intricate stack operations with Flusterstorm and stacked top activations. But looking at what's playable in legacy and stating that there isn't powerful spells with a non-creature focus printed anymore is simply not true, it just appears that way for us as they usually turn out not good enough (or too good) for legacy where you can play all of the overpowered spells like Plow, Terminus, Brainstorm, Force, LED etc.

[LarsLeif]

Yeah right now the strenght of creatures is kinda annoying atm moment. You don't play spells anymore you just play the creatures they are printed on nowadays (Reflector mage, Spell Queller, Prelate). Why they don't print any nice new removal tools in non-standard set is not really understandable for me.

Besides Toxic Deluge, Councils Judgement och Sudden Demise you mean? :p

[Lemnear]

Not in standard they weren't. Stop taking the eternal perspective when discussing whether or not spells are too bad/too focused on creatures. There are always a lot of powerful spells in standard and limited that are not creatures or focused on creatures. Hell, It wasn't that long ago that a creatureless, almost win condition-less deck won the standard pro tour.

My bad for commenting FROM AN ETERNAL PERSPECTIVE in a LEGACY FORUM instead of a Standard/Limited/Draft one. In a world where printing Prelate for 3cc is fine but 3cc counterspells are the design-norm due to NWO, its clear why non-creature cards have a tough time sinking into Legacy grounds

[LarsLeif]

My bad for commenting FROM AN ETERNAL PERSPECTIVE in a LEGACY FORUM instead of a Standard/Limited/Draft one. In a world where printing Prelate for 3cc is fine but 3cc counterspells are the design-norm due to NWO, its clear why non-creature cards have a tough time sinking into Legacy grounds

Of course I understand your urge to discuss printings from a eternal perspective, but be careful so that your choice of perspective don't make you draw the wrong conclusions, e.g that there isn't powerful non-creature spells printed anymore for example. There are plenty of those. Try a limited format where answers are twice as cheap as the threats and you will see how broken and weird that plays out for example.

[square_two]

The deck needs a complete structural overhaul, starting with a metagame analysis to determine the third color or if its even needed in the first place, followed by exploring how you can profit from the mana-scaling ability of the deck without running high-cost chaff which fucks over the performance stability

It's almost like we need more creatures that have the ability to be played early for less value but can be played later for more value but with a higher required mana cost...sort of like it being kicked up a notch with more mana. Sure wish we had more options like that! :tongue:

[Lemnear]

It's almost like we need more creatures that have the ability to be played early for less value but can be played later for more value but with a higher required mana cost...sort of like it being kicked up a notch with more mana. Sure wish we had more options like that! :tongue:

To no ones surprise, NicFit is THE home for all the various Creature-Kicker variants WotC printed over the year and yet I have not seen anyone actually trying to explore, which one is the best. Its not that stuff like Tasigur or Polukranos seem to have been excessively tested

[thecrav]

Honestly the last three mechanics which stick with me were Miracle, Delve and Prowess

And Delve wasn't even a new mechanic - It's from Futuresight, 2007.

[Lemnear]

And Delve wasn't even a new mechanic - It's from Futuresight, 2007.

I am old enough and long enough in the game to consider a '07 print "new"

[Bosque]

I am old enough and long enough in the game to consider a '07 print "new"

Yeah, agree. Delve feels new. So do Planeswalkers.

From the last few blocks I remember flip cards, Delve, Prowess, Miracles, Scry and Devotion. There was some really bad BS that made 2/2 colorless creatures also, but I can't remember what it was called.

[Cire]

There was some really bad BS that made 2/2 colorless creatures also, but I can't remember what it was called.

I remember reading all the reasons why Morph was 3 mana for a 2/2 instead of 2 mana for a 1/1 but I keep forgetting them. :frown:

[Richard Cheese]

I think this quote from the article sums up the mentality under MaRo nicely:


As we seek out new design veins to explore, having visuals as a tool to help us has proven a necessity.

"Design" is just a commodity, and they're strip-mining the game to get every ounce they can out of it. The number of discarded garbage keywords left in their wake is of no concern as long as the design continues to flow.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

"Design" is just a commodity, and they're strip-mining the game to get every ounce they can out of it. The number of discarded garbage keywords left in their wake is of no concern as long as the design continues to flow.

My Dad said the same thing 15 years ago xD

They are doing fine... Some things have flaws but others are great (like limited).

The Lore got worse since idk Urza block.
The art feels better now then 5 years ago.
Mechanics are not even that bad... Or do you wish they make great stuff like rampage/bushido again?

So yah its not perfect, but as good as it gets!

[MorphBerlin]

How could a "removal tool" be better than (or even just up to par to) Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Abrupt Decay, Supreme Verdict, or Terminus? I think the game's more than fine in that regard.

Ok so most non-white decks are either running Bolt/P.Fire or Decay as removal suite. Dropping Prelate (uncounterable in most cases) on 1/2 shuts down those without even the chance to respond. That's pretty uninteravtive Magic for me especially considering stupid Mom is already in the deck. Decay is a overcosted removal for legacy, which makes up for that by being a general answer to most permanents and dogging counterbalance. Now we have a creature that easily blanks that and most other non-white removal. That's my problem basically. They could print something like a black Pyroclasm with -2/-2

[Aggro_zombies]

The number of discarded garbage keywords left in their wake is of no concern as long as the design continues to flow.
Uh, what?

They do bring back mechanics, you know. We just got out of a block that had madness and DFCs. The block before that had Allies and Landfall. Regardless of what you think of those mechanics, they are mechanics and they did return. They will bring back other recent mechanics that are popular - Surge and colorless matters tested well enough that they'll be coming back for sure, according to the article itself.

If this thread continues to be bitching about creatures / kicker / dumbing down the game / etc., I'm going to close it. We do this song and dance every fucking spoiler season, we don't need to do it again now.

[Darkenslight]

My Dad said the same thing 15 years ago xD

They are doing fine... Some things have flaws but others are great (like limited).

The Lore got worse since idk Urza block.
The art feels better now then 5 years ago.
Mechanics are not even that bad... Or do you wish they make great stuff like rampage/bushido again?

So yah its not perfect, but as good as it gets!

A functional reprint of Bushido and Rampage seem like a great idea, at some point.

[Deadinthestreet]

Expecting legacy power level cards in standard legal sets is a waste of time. Supplemental sets such as commander and conspiracy are the place where they can print cards good enough for eternal formats without warping not standard. Yeah there's always a few cars per set people try but just don't get your hopes up. Only more mid range creature base decks will benefit from creature power creep. Legacy is a slowly evolving creature whether we like it or not.

[Dice_Box]

Why do any of you care about what Wizards does with new mechanics? If they don't make it to Legacy you don't have to pay attention and if they do then we have a new card.

Let the judges bitch about it, they have a real reason for doing so, you all sound like fools.

[Mr Miagi]

I'm sorry for the offtopic, but this forum, or better say some threads, or just putting it bluntly, individuals are getting toxic, and that does not benefit The Source (also turn people away from reading or participating in the forum).

But for the post to not be totally offtopic, I agree with what Lars and Dice said on this topic. Also to note that Maro's article is focused more on standard and limited, so I don't know why are you all going crazy. Wizards are making limited/T2 cards primarily. Legacy is just taking some of the cards of that pool. I'm down with that.

[Lemnear]

I'm sorry for the offtopic, but this forum, or better say some threads, or just putting it bluntly, individuals are getting toxic, and that does not benefit The Source (also turn people away from reading or participating in the forum).

But for the post to not be totally offtopic, I agree with what Lars and Dice said on this topic. Also to note that Maro's article is focused more on standard and limited, so I don't know why are you all going crazy. Wizards are making limited/T2 cards primarily. Legacy is just taking some of the cards of that pool. I'm down with that.

we argue on MaRos statements like...

- card complexity in standard/limited is "too high"
- that it needed 7 years of NWO to realize that their flood of keywords confuses player and was impossible to recognize earlier
- that Awaken is an instant classic of a mechanic
- that messing with the exile zone to turn it into another graveyard was good
- that putting Eldrazi into everything is amazing
- that Meld is a perfect mechanic
- etc.

... in a general context of where the game and design as a whole is heading. You are free to link the NWO to how the Eternal Formats evolved thanks to it

[LarsLeif]

I think NWO gets too much credit for every design decision that R&D deals with. NWO focuses mainly on moving complexity out of common and into higher rarities, and in some other ways just avoid having to make all cards at all rarities have Ice Cauldronesque smokings of text in their wording. Makes sense when you consider most of their audience are beginners.

Keywording stuff isn't an integral part of NWO, that change would probably have come anyways because it is just good design to indicate that abilities that have the same mechanic "feel and function" actually is the same mechanic. If two different cards have long rules texts and you are comparing them, they might seem to work the same way but it's harder to tell just by reading the rules text. But if they both suddenly have the keyword Morph, well, now you now they should mechanically work the same - it just reduces cognitive load. However, as MaRo says, the lessons is that it could also increase it if used on all possible things e.g Devoid etc. As Dieter Rams wisely put it, good design is as little design as possible.

[Echelon]

One decision I never understood was to have keyword abilities with the text of the ability behind it every single time to explain what the ability does (not just as reminder text). That beats the purpose of a keyword ability - just give the damn card a certain ability without putting that stupid keyword in front of it. People'd understand the card all the same and wouldn't have to be bothered with remembering another keyword.

[Julian23]

What Echelon said. There's tons of "keywords" that don't mean anything except for that the card's mechanic is related to a certain theme.

Like Chroma, Battalion, Fateful hour, Ferocious, Sweep and all the others. I want my keyword abilities to stand on their own. Otherwise they're mostly just a waste of text. Some can make the card feel more flavorful, but I feel most of the time they don't.

[Lemnear]

Come on, if you create keywords for 7-11 cards only before they are forgotten, you have to print the Full ability text, because no one fuckin remembers every random, fringe keyword WotC comes up with

[Zombie]

What Echelon said. There's tons of "keywords" that don't mean anything except for that the card's mechanic is related to a certain theme.

Like Chroma, Battalion, Fateful hour, Ferocious, Sweep and all the others. I want my keyword abilities to stand on their own. Otherwise they're mostly just a waste of text. Some can make the card feel more flavorful, but I feel most of the time they don't.


Come on, if you create keywords for 7-11 cards only before they are forgotten, you have to print the Full ability text, because no one fuckin remembers every random, fringe keyword WotC comes up with

The reason WotC cites is that people apparently can't spot themes on cards without a note saying "btw, this is a theme." They literally get complaints that there's nothing in the sets without tagging mechanics as such.

I weep for humanity.

[Julian23]

If Urza's Legacy was reprinted today, Rancor, Brilliant Halo and the other "return-upon-death" enchantments would probably also have a keyword. Like "Constant Renewal — When ~ is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, return ~ to its owner's hand."

[Lemnear]

Why isn't Cantrip - Draw a Card already a keyword printed on Preordain, Wall of Blossoms, Ponder, etc. yet?

[LarsLeif]

I agree with you points, but it's tough because their users vary a lot. As stated - yes there are actually people complaining that they don't get the theme when R&D don't include them.

Regarding the combo of Keywords and the ability text it mainly comes down taking the perspective of the standard user (rookies if you will). To do this - ask the following questions:

1. Is the keyword evergreen?

2. Is it a recent or brand new keyword?

3. Is the mechanic it conveys complicated?

The answers to these types of questions will lead you to the answer of why they sometimes include both, and why they sometimes don't. Evergreen keywords like Flying, First Strike and Trample are so common and so integral to the game that they do not require any explanation. Prowess on the other hand is also an Evergreen keyword - but it is newer and therefore also has the reminder text written out. In the future, Prowess will probably not have that, but as it is still recent - it does. This journey of evergreen keywords has already been undertaken by other keywords. Vigilance for example started out as a non-keyword ability, then got a keyword + reminder text, and now it is only Vigilance.

Regarding brand new keywords for non evergreen mechanics - having both the keyword and the reminder text lets the user both more easily understand that they are in fact looking at the same mechanic ("Oh, this card has Manifest, and so does that card - they must work the same!") without having to verify they are looking at the same mechanic by reading the rules text closely. But the keyword of course also has to be explained if it is a new mechanic and therefore it also gets the accompanying rules text.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to convey here - the decision of Keyword + Rules text is by no means random or "just because there is room".

[Cliq]

My bad for commenting FROM AN ETERNAL PERSPECTIVE in a LEGACY FORUM instead of a Standard/Limited/Draft one. In a world where printing Prelate for 3cc is fine but 3cc counterspells are the design-norm due to NWO, its clear why non-creature cards have a tough time sinking into Legacy grounds

From the last few sets we have Dark Petition, K command, Murderous Cut/TCruise/Dig, Councils Judgement, Invasive Surgery, Swan Song, new Daretti & old Daretti, and new Gideon (ok fine, he's practically a creature).

What do you think happens to the meta when we get a bunch of counterspells on the power level of Daze printed in standard sets all of a sudden? Hint: it's not going to be fun. The truth is we get a few playable spells every set, and that's fine. In an ideal world I'd like to see more new archetypes, stuff like Serra's Sanctum, but what we've got is way better than a new treasure cruise every set.

Anyway, I think his assessment is valid, with the exception of the story. I wonder if their market research team is dropping the ball there and giving them bad info. The story sucks. But, limited has been great and he addressed everything that went wrong with the sets and even some things i wouldn't have thought of, like the excessive keywords.

[Barook]

Anyway, I think his assessment is valid, with the exception of the story. I wonder if their market research team is dropping the ball there and giving them bad info. The story sucks. But, limited has been great and he addressed everything that went wrong with the sets and even some things i wouldn't have thought of, like the excessive keywords.
Given the "quality" people WotC attracts with their below industry standards wage, I wouldn't be suprised if the people at their marketing research also suck. Remember - if it isn't R&D, it sucks. That's basically the mantra of all Ex-WotC employees on glassdoorreviews.

Let's be honest, their primary target group are ~13 year old boys, but I do wonder if the badly written adventures of the Jacetice League isn't too dumb even for them. Emrakul trapping herself in the moon for unknown reasons was an OK-twist, but "Chandra's Eldrazi BBQ Party" was unforgivable.

[Lemnear]

From the last few sets we have Dark Petition, K command, Murderous Cut/TCruise/Dig, Councils Judgement, Invasive Surgery, Swan Song, new Daretti & old Daretti, and new Gideon (ok fine, he's practically a creature).

What do you think happens to the meta when we get a bunch of counterspells on the power level of Daze printed in standard sets all of a sudden? Hint: it's not going to be fun. The truth is we get a few playable spells every set, and that's fine. In an ideal world I'd like to see more new archetypes, stuff like Serra's Sanctum, but what we've got is way better than a new treasure cruise every set.

Anyway, I think his assessment is valid, with the exception of the story. I wonder if their market research team is dropping the ball there and giving them bad info. The story sucks. But, limited has been great and he addressed everything that went wrong with the sets and even some things i wouldn't have thought of, like the excessive keywords.

I dunno if I can take you serious if you are that desperate to come up with Daretti, Song and Surgery. I tell you what would happen with Daze in standard: Nothing. Simply because the deck don't operate on one-land-hands like in Legacy. Treasure Cruise & Dg through time broken on first sight. That shit didn't require even playtesting to see that imo

[TsumiBand]

Why isn't Cantrip - Draw a Card already a keyword printed on Preordain, Wall of Blossoms, Ponder, etc. yet?

They should really just evergreen that shit, right

http://www.mtgcardmaker.com/mcmaker/createcard.php?name=Ancestral+Recall&color=Blue&mana_r=0&mana_u=1&mana_g=0&mana_b=0&mana_w=0&mana_colorless=0&picture=tempimages%2F494522270.png&supertype=&cardtype=Instant&subtype=&expansion=Tenth+Edition&rarity=Uncommon&cardtext=Target+player+cantrips+3.&power=&toughness=&artist=&bottom=™+%26+©+1993-2013+Wizards+of+the+Coast+LLC&set1=&set2=&setname=

[PirateKing]

Or do you wish they make great stuff like rampage/bushido again?

Keywords like Bushido always get picked on, but I appreciate when they give keywords variables that don't cap the power level potential.
Devour got printed originally with 1 and 2, then a single 3, but it gave them the room to print Thromok the Insatiable as a real twist to the mechanic.
So when they print Megamorph with the 1 baked in, it just limited from the onset.

[Begle1]

My thoughts on the article:

Less emphasis on more and more mechanics should be a good thing. For years he has talked more about "mechanics" than individual cards; there's so many times he talks about how market research says a mechanic sucks when I think it'd be different if only all the cards with the mechanic didn't suck. Like, if Converge was more playable and on better/ funner cards, maybe it would have been better received? I think they've spent more time coming up with mechanics and then wondering how to use them than crafting good single "lenticular" cards. The game would improve if they ask "what cards enable this color to beat this situation?" rather than "what awesome mechanic can we print to make awesome?"

He admits Battle for Zendikar was a cluster. It totally was. My wife is a newer player and she usually enjoys Magic, but BfZ was very weird. And then the Oath came out and was also really weird, but the two weirds didn't complement each other. It was very jarring, didn't attract many new players. She didn't like drafting it and neither did I. Khans was complex too, but in the right way; the options it gave you played into coherent strategies. Shadows is okay, better than BfZ but worse than Khans. I think he called things correctly, that's good.

He didn't say "players like the stories"; his metric of success was "players are aware of the stories". I think story telling (and art) peaked in Mirage and Visions, when the cards all talked about these general abstract mysterious things and let the players fill in the blanks and figure it out. Fallen Empires, Homelands, Ice Age; they didn't tell the story, they just referenced it a ton and it gave an impression of what was going on. They saved money and made things better by having players fill in the blanks. They can't be farther from that, they're trying now to make things as obvious as possible. Their decision.

[Lemnear]

They should really just evergreen that shit, right

http://www.mtgcardmaker.com/mcmaker/createcard.php?name=Ancestral+Recall&color=Blue&mana_r=0&mana_u=1&mana_g=0&mana_b=0&mana_w=0&mana_colorless=0&picture=tempimages%2F494522270.png&supertype=&cardtype=Instant&subtype=&expansion=Tenth+Edition&rarity=Uncommon&cardtext=Target+player+cantrips+3.&power=&toughness=&artist=&bottom=™+%26+©+1993-2013+Wizards+of+the+Coast+LLC&set1=&set2=&setname=

Or Loot X - Target player draws X cards and then discards X cards afterwards


My thoughts on the article:

Less emphasis on more and more mechanics should be a good thing. For years he has talked more about "mechanics" than individual cards; there's so many times he talks about how market research says a mechanic sucks when I think it'd be different if only all the cards with the mechanic didn't suck. Like, if Converge was more playable and on better/ funner cards, maybe it would have been better received? I think they've spent more time coming up with mechanics and then wondering how to use them than crafting good single "lenticular" cards. The game would improve if they ask "what cards enable this color to beat this situation?" rather than "what awesome mechanic can we print to make awesome?"

He admits Battle for Zendikar was a cluster. It totally was. My wife is a newer player and she usually enjoys Magic, but BfZ was very weird. And then the Oath came out and was also really weird, but the two weirds didn't complement each other. It was very jarring, didn't attract many new players. She didn't like drafting it and neither did I. Khans was complex too, but in the right way; the options it gave you played into coherent strategies. Shadows is okay, better than BfZ but worse than Khans. I think he called things correctly, that's good.

He didn't say "players like the stories"; his metric of success was "players are aware of the stories". I think story telling (and art) peaked in Mirage and Visions, when the cards all talked about these general abstract mysterious things and let the players fill in the blanks and figure it out. Fallen Empires, Homelands, Ice Age; they didn't tell the story, they just referenced it a ton and it gave an impression of what was going on. They saved money and made things better by having players fill in the blanks. They can't be farther from that, they're trying now to make things as obvious as possible. Their decision.

Tbh the last time Card artwork and card names across an expansion really told a story was during Urzas Saga. I wonder if its possible these days to arrange the cards of an expansion to tell the story basically in a comic strip like it was possible back then

[Ace/Homebrew]

I wonder if its possible these days to arrange the cards of an expansion to tell the story basically in a comic strip like it was possible back then
I think the real question is if the story is worth reading... :rolleyes:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=402079&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=402078&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=401807&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=407608&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=407687&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=407526&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=407638&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=407619&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=407657&type=card

[Lemnear]

Never noticed that Bounds of Mortality and Fall of the Titans had Copy&Paste artworks

[Echelon]

The reason WotC cites is that people apparently can't spot themes on cards without a note saying "btw, this is a theme." They literally get complaints that there's nothing in the sets without tagging mechanics as such.

I weep for humanity.

Yeah, same here. 13 year old me was perfectly capable of picking up on those themes (even those as awesome as having all your lands tapped, during Prophecy) and I'm not even a native speaker of English. Where did it start going south? You know what the point is with complaints - you don't need to act on every complaint you get. If you do, you just keep running around in circles. "We want keywords" (throw in BS keywords), "we only want real keywords" (skip on BS keywords), "we want more keywords" (go back to throwing in BS keywords) and so on and so on. You need to address complaints, sure, but that can also mean you just explain why you did or didn't do something rather than try to fulfill every desire voiced.

Keywords that ticked me off were Landfall and Constellation (and other such abilities). Those are just triggered abilities with a word in front of them to point out when they're triggered. We don't need WotC to point out to us that something is a triggered ability, dammit. We know how to play Magic (or are willing to learn), we're not Muggles! What's next? Upkeepism - At the beginning of your upkeep yada yada? Dammit-I-died - Whenever X is put into your graveyard from the battlefield yada yada?

[Barook]

Dammit-I-died - Whenever X is put into your graveyard from the battlefield yada yada?
That's pretty much Morbid. :really:

There's also silly stuff like Tireless Tracker which has a Landfall ability, but doesn't have the keyword, just because it was in the set after BFZ block.

[Echelon]

That's pretty much Morbid. :really:

There's also silly stuff like Tireless Tracker which has a Landfall ability, but doesn't have the keyword, just because it was in the set after BFZ block.

Yes, Dammit-I-died is very Morbid.

@Tireless Tracker: And let the confusion ensue - explain to a new player why that text on card X is called Landfall, but on card Y it isn't and if there's a difference between Tracker's ability and Landfall. And what happens if you Proliferate when after Landfall, you've Investigated and Cluelessed by Seppuku into Cantrip'ing the Clue.

Keywords make MTG so much easier for new players - no need to be able to read what a card says and figure stuff out from there, all you need to do is memorize what 50+ random words do, mean and how they interact.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, same here. 13 year old me was perfectly capable of picking up on those themes (even those as awesome as having all your lands tapped, during Prophecy) and I'm not even a native speaker of English. Where did it start going south? You know what the point is with complaints - you don't need to act on every complaint you get. If you do, you just keep running around in circles. "We want keywords" (throw in BS keywords), "we only want real keywords" (skip on BS keywords), "we want more keywords" (go back to throwing in BS keywords) and so on and so on. You need to address complaints, sure, but that can also mean you just explain why you did or didn't do something rather than try to fulfill every desire voiced.

Keywords that ticked me off were Landfall and Constellation (and other such abilities). Those are just triggered abilities with a word in front of them to point out when they're triggered. We don't need WotC to point out to us that something is a triggered ability, dammit. We know how to play Magic (or are willing to learn), we're not Muggles! What's next? Upkeepism - At the beginning of your upkeep yada yada? Dammit-I-died - Whenever X is put into your graveyard from the battlefield yada yada?

It started when WotC didn't stick to keywords within a block to go deeper into mechanics and giving them a twist in later expansions (within the block), but throw every keyword overboard after 7-11 cards within an expansion. On top of that they can't even manage to pick up old mechanics of a block when revisiting a Plane to do give the mechanics the said twist or more cards within the theme.

If I remember, it went downhill with Return to Ravnica (Because Mirrodin 2.0 could not bring back the broken Affinity anyways) and instead of picking up mechanics which worked and are exciting like Dredge, Transmute, hellbent or Replicate and replacing the mediocre/bad stuff like Graft (anyone remembers this mechanic at all?), they instead slapped us with "+X/+X creature" mechanics in Unleash and Scavenge for example without intent to fix or improve the beforenamed original mechanics.

In theory they could have printed a Dredge Naturalize/GiantGrowth/Discard/etc if they would have given the mechanic another spin which is stuff with a lot of potential, establish Hellbent as a real comeback mechanic or push Transmute into a combo engine. No, we instead got the usual "kicker" stuff for Rakdos, Golgari and Izzet

[colo]

Since everyone's bitching about keywords and replacing longer phrases of text with a (well, at times) short and unqiue string to signify an effect or ability - can anyone explain to me why they got rid of "bury", and introduced the clunky "destory and cannot be regenerated" substitute instead?

[PirateKing]

It started when WotC didn't stick to keywords within a block to go deeper into mechanics and giving them a twist in later expansions (within the block), but throw every keyword overboard after 7-11 cards within an expansion. On top of that they can't even manage to pick up old mechanics of a block when revisiting a Plane to do give the mechanics the said twist or more cards within the theme.

This entirely. The whole point of a keyword is to consolidate lines of text to free up space for other abilities. So you can print Akroma, Angel of Wrath without having the text box look like Amulet of Quoz. But if after every single instance of your keyword you need to put reminder text afterwards, you free up no space!
Putting reminder text at the beginning so player get familiar gives you the design space to print something like He Who Hungers.

[Lemnear]

This entirely. The whole point of a keyword is to consolidate lines of text to free up space for other abilities. So you can print Akroma, Angel of Wrath without having the text box look like Amulet of Quoz. But if after every single instance of your keyword you need to put reminder text afterwards, you free up no space!
Putting reminder text at the beginning so player get familiar gives you the design space to print something like He Who Hungers.

100% this. If a keyword is established in the first set, you can just use the keyword without reminder text in the follow-up expansion to have more cardspace for a twist on the mechanic or a more complex card with that mechanic attached.

[LarsLeif]

100% this. If a keyword is established in the first set, you can just use the keyword without reminder text in the follow-up expansion to have more cardspace for a twist on the mechanic or a more complex card with that mechanic attached.

Isn't that assuming that most users start with the first set in a block? What about the ones that start playing in the second set? What about those that just aren't as adept with the rules yet that have to learn all keywords?

Every single time I turn on legacy streams from GPs or the like I see people making loads of huge mistakes like:

1. Missing that they have lethal because they don't understand how trample or double strike works.

2. Attacking with 2/2s into Mishra's Factory cause they don't understand how blocking and assigning damage and tapping in combat works.

3. Make stupid sequencing errors because they don't understand how the stack works.

4. Flipping top to Miracle Terminus in their own endstep because they don't understand how Miracle works.

The list can be made super long, but basically people make these mistakes because magic is hard and because they lack a basic understanding of the rules, and we are talking about Legacy players - aka the more seasoned players of the game!

Yes, of course it saves space to not include rules text, but I get the feeling that you are still in the "This is what I would like" mode and not in the "This is probably best for the target audience" mode.

[Julian23]

I would wager that adding reminder text wouldn't hardly accomplish anything to do something about these mistakes.

Reminds me of a friend of mine. He literally only ever reads the first 3 lines of text on a card and then just assumes how it probably works.

[rufus]

Since everyone's bitching about keywords and replacing longer phrases of text with a (well, at times) short and unqiue string to signify an effect or ability - can anyone explain to me why they got rid of "bury", and introduced the clunky "destory and cannot be regenerated" substitute instead?

Probably to avoid confusing interactions with "indestructible".

[PirateKing]

It's not a difference between "This is what I would like" and "This is probably best for the target audience", it's the whole point of establishing a Keyword.

It's fine in beginner sets to have card text "Trample (This creature can deal excess combat damage to defending player or planeswalker while attacking.) ".

If you're never going to print Trample without the reminder text, then don't bother giving it a Keyword because that doesn't accomplish anything. Look to examples like the Rebel ability which never got a keyword, but was pretty universally understood as a Rebel ability. Not everything needs "Nonsense (Do a thing.) " when "Do a thing" can be just as effecitve and flavorful.

[LarsLeif]

I would wager that adding reminder text wouldn't hardly accomplish anything to to something about these mistakes.

What would you propose instead?


Reminds me of a friend of mine. He literally only ever reads the first 3 lines of text on a card and then just assumes how it probably works.

Is he a beginner? If not, do you think a beginner would behave in the same way?

[LarsLeif]

It's not a difference between "This is what I would like" and "This is probably best for the target audience", it's the whole point of establishing a Keyword.

It's fine in beginner sets to have card text "Trample (This creature can deal excess combat damage to defending player or planeswalker while attacking.) ".

If you're never going to print Trample without the reminder text, then don't bother giving it a Keyword because that doesn't accomplish anything. Look to examples like the Rebel ability which never got a keyword, but was pretty universally understood as a Rebel ability. Not everything needs "Nonsense (Do a thing.) " when "Do a thing" can be just as effecitve and flavorful.

What you gain is that you both explain the mechanic and instantly communicate which mechanic it is. This should be obvious by now, I won't repeat my reasonings for why this is a good idea again.

[rufus]

...
If you're never going to print Trample without the reminder text, then don't bother giving it a Keyword because that doesn't accomplish anything. Look to examples like the Rebel ability which never got a keyword, but was pretty universally understood as a Rebel ability. Not everything needs "Nonsense (Do a thing.) " when "Do a thing" can be just as effecitve and flavorful.

Unlike the nominal mechanic of the week, combat damage abilities like trample and deathtouch are significantly more subtle than the reminder text. (There's a reason we don't see deathtouch+trample creatures.) Stuff which carries a lot of mechanical baggage like those abilities or bestow really does need a keyword in addition to the reminder.

[Julian23]

When I get bored, I do stuff like this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrRvKB0WEAApCn6.jpg:large

@LarsLeif: I don't propose anything instead. I think people misplaying is fine and part of the game. It's not like they didn't know you could tap Mishra's Factory during combat to pump itself. Most of the time it's that the thought of doing xyz didn't come to their mind. Which is great, because it rewards tight play, experience and out-of-the-box thinking.

[Stan]

Removed quote - Julian23

I'm still confused about that card. What does 'countered' mean?

[PirateKing]

What you gain is that you both explain the mechanic and instantly communicate which mechanic it is. This should be obvious by now, I won't repeat my reasonings for why this is a good idea again.

But that's not the mechanic. The mechanic works just fine with or without the "FlavorWord" in front of it. There are tons of examples of mechanics that work just fine across the entire spectrum of magic that don't have shoehorned FlavorWords forced in front. Draw a card, discard a card. Exile ~, then return it to the battlefield under its owner's control. Whenever ~ deal combat damage to a player,

The mechanics of Slivers is pretty beloved, even without Hivemind (All Slivers have...)

In the current state you end up with garbage like Ingest, occurring on a total of 9 cards, and it just so painfully weak design.

[PirateKing]

When I get bored, I do stuff like this:
Should be written
:r:: Firebreath (This creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn.)
Maximum flavor

[Cire]

Hivemind (All Slivers have...)


SHHHHHHH, don't give Wizards any ideas :mad:

[Begle1]

I think it's kind of silly to complain about whether they use marker words or not. It doesn't effect gameplay or card design except in the most superficial way. I really don't care... The problem with being too focused on too many unique mechanics that they pick up and abandon too quickly is not solved or excaberated by those mechanics having italicized names or not.

[maharis]

Never noticed that Bounds of Mortality and Fall of the Titans had Copy&Paste artworks

Jeez... of all the good points ITT this is the one that actually bugs me the most.

It's one thing for the artist to do this -- making a living in a creative field is really tough and the deadlines are intense. Shortcuts are to be expected.

It's another thing for Wizards to not go back to him and say "This is not OK." This makes them look like they built their set on Magic Set Editor lifting random images from DeviantArt like someone on Reddit. It's probably only going to get worse as they crank out more sets each year.

[maharis]

Hot take:

Magic R&D should spend less time goofing off on social media and writing columns and more time curating the game. Maro's column is basically "We just did 2 terrible years of QC." I would argue that RTR, Theros, and Khans weren't exactly great either compared to the 3-4 blocks before them. That's everything: the flavor, the mechanics, the actual cards, the gameplay.

As much as I felt the game had changed in the 10 years between when I originally quit and New Phyrexia, when I returned, the game is almost unrecognizable compared to NPH as well now. I look at a standard decklist and it might as well be a different game.

I had heard so much about the original Ravnica when I restarted and I was so hyped for RTR as a result. But there were no cool guild mechanics, the Eastern European flavor was completely watered down in favor of The Jace Show, and the hammers it introduced to all formats narrowed the gameplay considerably.

[PirateKing]

What got me the most was the meteoric crash in power level from RTR to GTC. I was pumped to see what the can't be countered cycle had for the other pairs if we could expect Abrupt Decay and Supreme Verdict level usefulness in UB and RG, that would have been something. 1 mana hybrids like Deathrite Shaman and Dryad Militant and Judge's Familiar would have been cool to see as well. But the colors who lost the first set lottery just got hosed in power compared to the others.

[phonics]

Jeez... of all the good points ITT this is the one that actually bugs me the most.

It's one thing for the artist to do this -- making a living in a creative field is really tough and the deadlines are intense. Shortcuts are to be expected.

It's another thing for Wizards to not go back to him and say "This is not OK." This makes them look like they built their set on Magic Set Editor lifting random images from DeviantArt like someone on Reddit. It's probably only going to get worse as they crank out more sets each year.

Im pretty sure that the art was a promo piece with all 4 planeswalkers killing the titans with the power of friendship, not sure why they decided to make two composite images for different cards out of the original though.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I wonder if its possible these days to arrange the cards of an expansion to tell the story basically in a comic strip like it was possible back then
Bored... and this is actually fairly enjoyable to do.
Unfortunately there wasn't a card depicting the end result of Nahiri and Sorin's battle. :frown:


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=409741&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=409742&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=410006&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=410012&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=409750&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=414487&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=414436&type=card

[TsumiBand]

Bored... and this is actually fairly enjoyable to do.
Unfortunately there wasn't a card depicting the end result of Nahiri and Sorin's battle. :frown:

You made me google the outcome because I didn't know what had happened, and now I'm all frowns because as much as I like Nahiri, Sorin is a fucking boss and it's stupid that he's... where he is. Fuck that.

[LarsLeif]

I feel that there is both good and bad old style art, and good and bad new style art. Have you guys seen the new high-res art from Kaladesh though? Some really beautiful stuff there, love it.

[Zombie]

I really like Kaladesh's art - the first time in a long while that MTG art consistently feels handmade and characterful instead of unnaturally clean CGI.

[LarsLeif]

I think that the new mechanics also seem very intriguing, really cool designs being unveiled as we speak.

[Meekrab]

Didn't read anything but the first post... glad MaRo is taking the brunt of the guilt for BFZ being a complete pile of shit. Everyone loved Zendikar, nobody loved the Eldrazi except LSV after winning the Pro Tour.