Amonkhet, a new Plane for the next Block

[Hopo]

If it exiled everything, it would be great. Hard to say how relevant the two last (aka best) cards are. Being a Recruiter (R and W) target is a definite plus, but I'm not too sure it's enough.

It seems quite relevant with all the embalm cards. In legacy not so much. What does it actually hose? Maybe dredge but likely not even that.

[Poron]

If it exiled everything, it would be great. Hard to say how relevant the two last (aka best) cards are. Being a Recruiter (R and W) target is a definite plus, but I'm not too sure it's enough.

doesn't get reanimator, doesn't get TES.. mm

[Megadeus]

Seems like a half assed attempt to put grave hate back in standard without it completely hosing delirium. And by doing that it seems unplayable outside of standard where it's only playable because people are desperate

[Cire]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_iLihnohg44.png

Platinum Gideon

[Claymore]

So you can't be killed by mill or Tendrils game one. Huh.

What a bizarre ability.

[DLifshitz]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_iLihnohg44.png

Platinum Gideon

This is going to be so frustrating to play against.

[Barook]

Dies to Bolt if you Emblem immediately. Dies to Abrupt Decay in general. Hardly a problem for Modern or Eternal.

I can see Standard players crying bitch tears, though.

[Noctalor]

Dies to Bolt if you Emblem immediately. Dies to Abrupt Decay in general. Hardly a problem for Modern or Eternal.

I can see Standard players crying bitch tears, though.

Note that you can cast this gideon, and later in the game an ally of zendikar and win the game that way

[morgan_coke]

Oh, so now white finally gets it's turn at having a broken 3 mana 'Walker.

Jesus that's stupid good.

It's a hard to remove wincon that does a platinum angel impression on the side. I mean, it dies to StP if you try to attack with it. Bolt kills it if you don't +1 it right away, and it also dies to Abrupt Decay. Hmm. So, not impossible to remove, still very problematic for a lot of decks. At least Cast Out is available to kill it.

Still, 3 mana for a permanent Angel's Grace effect seems... like a bad idea? Does ANT run this? Like, seriously, does it? It's a backup wincon and defense, even if it is in the wrong colors, it's nothing a single Manamorphose won't let you cast.

Dunno, I think I'm starting my next deck with 4x JVP, 4x GotT, 4x Nahiri, busted walkers at 2, 3, and 4 and you've just gotta build a WUr deck around them, right? Hell, you could even do some "new slide/cycle trigger on discard" effects in that shell super easy. Maybe Drake Roost, maybe not, gotta see what else is available.

Are the Trials playable in Enchantress? The Black one, Trial of Ambition seems Legacy playable tbh. Not sure about any of the Cartouche's. Cartouche of Knowledge is a couple of cards drawn if you run any Trials, and a cantrip on it's own, so that might work.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Note that you can cast this gideon, and later in the game an ally of zendikar and not lose the game that way

Fixed that for you. :wink:

[Cire]

One of the cool things about his platinum ability is it reference any Gideon PW. . . so you can cast this turn 2 (with turn 1 Hierarch or DRS) use his platinum ability, and if he gets bolted or killed, turn 3 you can follow up with one of the 4 mana Gideons or you can play E.Witness, and play him later and still get the platinum buff.

Something like:

4 GooT
2 Other Gideons

4 NH
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 KotR
4 GSZ package
1 E.Witness

4 STP
4 GSZ
4 Open spots?

21 Lands





Dunno, I think I'm starting my next deck with 4x JVP, 4x GotT, 4x Nahiri, busted walkers at 2, 3, and 4 and you've just gotta build a WUr deck around them, right? k.

A legacy superfriends deck seems fun. Why not play JTMS? Deck pretty much builds itself - is it good? ehhh

4 Gideon of the Trials
4 JTMS
4 Nahiri

1 Emrakul

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Lighting Bolt
4 STP

4 Open slots

23 Lands

[Barook]

@Sire: What about Oath of Nissa? Not enough critical mass to be useful?

[Cire]

@Sire: What about Oath of Nissa? Not enough critical mass to be useful?

I have no clue honestly - i guess you can use it as a green Bstorm slash mana fix in the green/white build I posted, but in the UWR superfriends build IDK about adding a 4th color.

[morgan_coke]

Y'know, Deploy the Gatewatch is legal in both Standard and Modern, I keep wondering if there's a way to make that work, I mean it's basically CoCo for 'Walkers. With some thinning from acceleration and draw, I'd think you'd be able to pull that off.

[Megadeus]

Card seems mediocre at best to me, but IDK.

[Parcher]

I wanna see land, Petal, Careful Study discarding Sun Titan and Gideon, Reanimate.

Go.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Y'know, Deploy the Gatewatch is legal in both Standard and Modern, I keep wondering if there's a way to make that work, I mean it's basically CoCo for 'Walkers.

A theoretical Deploy the Gatewatch deck would want a minimum of 24 planeswalkers. And Deploy has a built-in downside that if you find two of the same walker, you only want to put 1 into play.

[Cire]

There's also the fact that this is a much cheaper route to do those fun Final Fantasy decks than platinum Angel. . .

Turn 2-3 - GooT
Turn 3-4 - If your Gideon is still around: Isochron's sceptre into Final Fortune - infinite turns.

[rufus]

One of the cool things about his platinum ability is it reference any Gideon PW. . . so you can cast this turn 2 (with turn 1 Hierarch or DRS) use his platinum ability, and if he gets bolted or killed, turn 3 you can follow up with one of the 4 mana Gideons or you can play E.Witness, and play him later and still get the platinum buff....

I wonder about going the other way with cards like Final Fortune,Pact of Negation, or Demonic Pact.

[Lemnear]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_iLihnohg44.png

Platinum Gideon

Nice. Now just add CounterTop and you auto-win the game against any non-Decay deck

Edit:
D&T mirror will be fun. Instant draw.

[jdmdave]

That was my thought as well. Might be win more, but surely this is absolutely bonkers when shielded by terminus/STP/counterbalance/top.

[Lemnear]

That was my thought as well. Might be win more, but surely this is absolutely bonkers when shielded by terminus/STP/counterbalance/top.

It even forces the opponent to overextend with the +1 or trade miserably if they have to defend against the 4/4. This is just obscene

[bruizar]

Nice. Now just add CounterTop and you auto-win the game against any non-Decay deck

Edit:
D&T mirror will be fun. Instant draw.

return of maranga

[Lemnear]

return of maranga

Touché sir

[bruizar]

Ah, so they printed Oath of Gideon to get him out of bolt range. Gotcha.

[Claymore]

Hey good point, adds another 3 cc that Miracles lacks, you can Terminus without killing your win condition, and with CounterTop he's unable to be killed by anything besides Abrupt Decay - which is overloaded with Countertop anyway.

Back to the ol' Superfriends.

[bruizar]

Hey good point, adds another 3 cc that Miracles lacks, you can Terminus without killing your win condition, and with CounterTop he's unable to be killed by anything besides Abrupt Decay - which is overloaded with Countertop anyway.

Back to the ol' Superfriends.

If decay is a problem, there's always Reknit when Welding Jar doesn't do the job. :) Or a Noxious Revival...

But that doesn't help against True-Name Nemesis.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Ah, so they printed Oath of Gideon to get him out of bolt range. Gotcha.

Using the first ability keeps him out of bolt range the same way that JTMS's fateseal ability does, as long as you use it immediately.

[Claymore]

The Oath would let you drop Gideon at 4 loyalty (bolt proof), pop his emblem, and have two 1/1 blockers ready and willing.


But that doesn't help against True-Name Nemesis.

Good thing they changed the rules so Wear/Tear counts as 3 now, more defense against TNN. There's a Method to their Madness(TM).

[Cire]

Ah, so they printed Oath of Gideon to get him out of bolt range. Gotcha.

And slides right in into my lists from post #511.

More protection for Gideon and faster win with Nahari

[Noctalor]

https://i.gyazo.com/12df9a0d15126581b10f9416093a62c6.jpg

This hits like a mofo in stompy

[MaximumC]

Oh, so now white finally gets it's turn at having a broken 3 mana 'Walker.

Jesus that's stupid good.

It's a hard to remove wincon that does a platinum angel impression on the side. I mean, it dies to StP if you try to attack with it. Bolt kills it if you don't +1 it right away, and it also dies to Abrupt Decay. Hmm. So, not impossible to remove, still very problematic for a lot of decks. At least Cast Out is available to kill it.

Still, 3 mana for a permanent Angel's Grace effect seems... like a bad idea? Does ANT run this? Like, seriously, does it? It's a backup wincon and defense, even if it is in the wrong colors, it's nothing a single Manamorphose won't let you cast.

Dunno, I think I'm starting my next deck with 4x JVP, 4x GotT, 4x Nahiri, busted walkers at 2, 3, and 4 and you've just gotta build a WUr deck around them, right? Hell, you could even do some "new slide/cycle trigger on discard" effects in that shell super easy. Maybe Drake Roost, maybe not, gotta see what else is available.

Are the Trials playable in Enchantress? The Black one, Trial of Ambition seems Legacy playable tbh. Not sure about any of the Cartouche's. Cartouche of Knowledge is a couple of cards drawn if you run any Trials, and a cantrip on it's own, so that might work.

I think you're overstating things. He gives you a hedge against combo while still being a 4/4 beater for 3, which is great. Good card is good.

But, not broken. He prevents you from losing to Tendrils of Agony or a single powerful opposing creature. That's all. Mill will not kill you, but it will still empty your library and good luck winning then, bro. Decks with more than one creature will just pile into him if they are able to get through at all, meaning he's basically chump blocking for you. Decks with burn can incinerate him immediately or just toss bolts his way.

Think of it this way: he's materially worse than Platinum Angel. With Angel, you're protected from losing to anything, and to actually get past the Angel, they have to hit the angel with removal. That is, they have to do something different from what they were doing to try and win anyway (burn being an exception). With Gideon, however, both burn and creature decks can just keep doing what they want to do anyway -- attack or sling burn -- and these will kill Gideon just as surely as they will kill you.

In other words, he's actually a very narrow hate card. A good one, but very narrow.


https://i.gyazo.com/12df9a0d15126581b10f9416093a62c6.jpg

This hits like a mofo in stompy

Lack of haste makes me shrug. I'd rather play something that hits harder or has a disruptive element on its own rather than a dork that requires me to have curved out perfectly in order to do anything.

[Megadeus]

For anyone talking about Gideon I also agree that he is very powerful, but what deck does he go in and what is he replacing? I can't come up with anything personally. Isn't storm already underrepresented? And like was said, the creature decks can just attack him to death and then attack you to death. Gideon doesn't create any actual advantage and he doesn't build to any game changing ultimate. That has never been traditionally a success for planeswalkers and is one of the main reasons that the only other gideon that really sees any play is Ally. Gideon Jura used to see play, but even he could create advantage by killing off dudes.

[morgan_coke]

For anyone talking about Gideon I also agree that he is very powerful, but what deck does he go in and what is he replacing? I can't come up with anything personally. Isn't storm already underrepresented? And like was said, the creature decks can just attack him to death and then attack you to death. Gideon doesn't create any actual advantage and he doesn't build to any game changing ultimate. That has never been traditionally a success for planeswalkers and is one of the main reasons that the only other gideon that really sees any play is Ally. Gideon Jura used to see play, but even he could create advantage by killing off dudes.

He's strong in Miracles, where he's a win condition, a 3 for top, and a defense against losing. He's strong in DnT where he buys you time against combo, and is a hard to remove threat against control. He works in Junk, where he's strong against combo and a hard to remove threat against control that can also shut down "win with one permanent" plans.

Basically, he works in any deck that has white mana and answers yes to the question of "do you want a 3 mana platinum angel that's extra hard to kill, doesn't fly, and can negate damage?"

[Fjaulnir]

Are the Trials playable in Enchantress? The Black one, Trial of Ambition seems Legacy playable tbh. Not sure about any of the Cartouche's. Cartouche of Knowledge is a couple of cards drawn if you run any Trials, and a cantrip on it's own, so that might work.

I doubt Enchantress needs a sacrifice effect/edict enchantment. ORing does the same job but also gets other problematic permanents, and ensures you remove what you need. It's not like shroud-ish creatures like TNN are a problem for Enchantress so the sac instead of exile doesn't matter as much.

The blue Trial "could" be a SB card for grindy matchups similar to Kruphix's Insight that sometimes has been tried in the SB against Liliana/Hymn decks. (outside of that kinda matchups, Enchantress wouldn't need a 4 mana draw 3 cards effect)


The cartouches however wouldn't work as there are no creatures to be enchanted, that would require more of a Bogles kind of build that's completely different from current Enchantress.

[Megadeus]

He's strong in Miracles, where he's a win condition, a 3 for top, and a defense against losing. He's strong in DnT where he buys you time against combo, and is a hard to remove threat against control. He works in Junk, where he's strong against combo and a hard to remove threat against control that can also shut down "win with one permanent" plans.

Basically, he works in any deck that has white mana and answers yes to the question of "do you want a 3 mana platinum angel that's extra hard to kill, doesn't fly, and can negate damage?"

Okay. Any what are you cutting for this card? Sure in theory it is good. I agree. But what do you cut, and is it better than what you're cutting? DnT already doesn't have room for all of the 3 drop creatures it has access to. Miracles has a few slots it could replace, but is it better than Mentor/Entreat/whatever you're taking out?

[MaximumC]

Ima refer to this as the "Speedbump Gideon"


Basically, he works in any deck that has white mana and answers yes to the question of "do you want a 3 mana platinum angel that's extra hard to kill, doesn't fly, and can negate damage?"

Except that he's actually easier to kill in any situation where you actually need him -- other than Storm.

[Kagehisa]

Against Gideon, Empty the Warrens is good.

[Ace/Homebrew]

https://i.gyazo.com/12df9a0d15126581b10f9416093a62c6.jpg

This hits like a mofo in stompy


Lack of haste makes me shrug. I'd rather play something that hits harder or has a disruptive element on its own rather than a dork that requires me to have curved out perfectly in order to do anything.

The deck Noctalor is suggesting this for plays :2::r: spells turn 1, so perfect curves aren't necessary. But I agree with your shrug...

Played on turn 1 he basically just trades with whatever creature the opponent plays. Lack of haste makes his exert ability win-moar rather than win-now. :rolleyes:

[rufus]

...

Played on turn 1 he basically just trades with whatever creature the opponent plays. Lack of haste makes his exert ability win-moar rather than win-now. :rolleyes:

He doesn't untap himself either, so it's not even pulling damage forward when he's solo. Does combo with Kiki-Jiki.

[Infinitium]

Obsidian Battle-Axe? Between and the umpteen borderline playable elf warriors there might be something to brew off.

[Claymore]

Noteworthy that Gideon only protects you against ANT, Aluren's parasitic combo win, and Painter's Mill. Most other combo decks use the attack step and can kill him in combat. It is a lock game 1 against ANT game 1, but so is Gaddock Teeg/Sanctum Prelate.

He's likely good in Miracles, but maybe not better than Mentor. I think he could be built around and be a solid deck, considering they get angsty over builds with or without Predict. A version of Miracles with him and heavier sweepers (Supreme Verdict) to fight Leovold BUG or their bad matchups (Aluren).

Dies to Decay, sure, but just run more than 1 of him.

[MaximumC]

Noteworthy that Gideon only protects you against ANT, Aluren's parasitic combo win, and Painter's Mill.

..and not even Mill, really. Once your library is gone, you can live on borrowed time for awhile, but good luck trying to get back in that game without the ability to draw cards.

[Barook]

Remember "Hazoret the Pervert"? Turns out the flavor text of "Limits of Solidarity" has a whole different meaning attached to it: :wink:

https://twitter.com/cubeapril/status/848925666422771714

[Infinitium]

Dies to combat damage more like; and singleton hate that doesn't prevent the combo proper still traditionally loses to bounce out of storm and high tide variants. Being able to continously nix an attacker whilst presenting a win condition is probably enough to see some finisher play out of Wx control decks mind.

[Antonius]

I think esper stoneblade is the best deck positioned to utilize gideon. You play lots of dudes so you can protect from them going wide while the +1 invalidates their big creature and the fact that you can strap a jitte or sword onto gideon himself post terminus or whatever is insane. Moreover, your colors have some of the best cards to abuse with gideon while also having internal synergy with the deck's main gameplan: Bob, bitterblossom, thoughtseize, pacts...snapcaster+pacts. With so much good stuff you'll have more haymakers than their 4 abrupt decays can deal with... you can also try to turn off abrupt decay with meddling mage.

[Claymore]

You could mainboard Humility with Gideon I think. There's lot of directions it could go with a Miracles of Friendship deck.

[morgan_coke]

Scarab Feast
Instant
B
Exile up to three target cards from a single graveyard.
Cycling: B

Rapid Decay minus 1 mana and with a single cost cycle? Heck to the yeauss. Now we're talking. Come on newly worded Slide card, come on, I know you're hiding in there somewhere.

[Barook]

Scarab Feast
Instant
B
Exile up to three target cards from a single graveyard.
Cycling: B

Rapid Decay minus 1 mana and with a single cost cycle? Heck to the yeauss. Now we're talking. Come on newly worded Slide card, come on, I know you're hiding in there somewhere.
Also a common. I'm still salty to this very day about pulling a Rapid Decay as a rare back then.

[maharis]

Also a common. I'm still salty to this very day about pulling a Rapid Decay as a rare back then.

I wonder if they would've printed this if Rapid Decay was on the reserved list. People would be demanding tri-land duals.

This is actually a good card that could find a home as a SB option in certain metas. One-mana instant-speed GY disruption that goes away if you don't need it (for those situations where you board in Cage and Surgical and have them both in your hand). There's lots of cards like this but maybe you want the cycling part for some other benefit (please make more cards with the jackal clause!)

[Ephemeron]

That new Gideon strikes me as profoundly terrible card design. It seems like it's either going to be completely unplayable or completely broken with very little ground in between. That's not the making of a good card as neither of those options are really optimal.

[morgan_coke]

I wonder if they would've printed this if Rapid Decay was on the reserved list. People would be demanding tri-land duals.

This is actually a good card that could find a home as a SB option in certain metas. One-mana instant-speed GY disruption that goes away if you don't need it (for those situations where you board in Cage and Surgical and have them both in your hand). There's lots of cards like this but maybe you want the cycling part for some other benefit (please make more cards with the jackal clause!)

I think this could easily be maindecked. That's kind of the great thing about cards that cycle for one mana. Even if you're not running a cycling deck, you can still throw some of them in if they're effective, situational and cheap at very little cost. This card is a perfect example. Weak to GY matchups? Rather than overloading your board with hate, throw a couple of these maindeck, then toss a couple "real hatecards" in your board.

EDIT: I mean, jesus, if we ever get a reasonably priced cycling Naturalize or Disenchant, you have to actively justify NOT running it.

[Darkenslight]

Dies to combat damage more like; and singleton hate that doesn't prevent the combo proper still traditionally loses to bounce out of storm and high tide variants. Being able to continously nix an attacker whilst presenting a win condition is probably enough to see some finisher play out of Wx control decks mind.

This Gideon + Privileged Position seems like a hard lock, too.

[Megadeus]

This Gideon + Privileged Position seems like a hard lock, too.

Not particularly. Can still burn Gideon out or just attack it

[Cire]

Leyline of sanctity would prevent burn right? Is that something worth looking into?

Or why not run him with Chalice, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.?

[Megadeus]

Leyline of sanctity would prevent burn right? Is that something worth looking into?

Or why not run him with Chalice, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.?

Stop most of the burn yes. I mean you could jump through all of those hoops I suppose. Still seems bad

[UnderwaterGuy]

Stop most of the burn yes. I mean you could jump through all of those hoops I suppose. Still seems bad
+1
If you can jump through all those hoops so you have shroud and creatures can't attack you then there is no point to Gideon; you're already almost unkillable.


That new Gideon strikes me as profoundly terrible card design. It seems like it's either going to be completely unplayable or completely broken with very little ground in between. That's not the making of a good card as neither of those options are really optimal.

Yeah, fingers crossed he's unplayable. He seems easy enough to kill (Bolt, Swords, Abrupt Decay all handle him) but he's also a 4/4 that can't block for 3 mana along with the pillowfort effects.

[morgan_coke]

Gideon by himself doesn't necessarily win the game. He is a very large obstacle to your opponent doing so, in that they have to play a sub-game of "kill the Gideon" before they can start working on you. You meanwhile, are under no such restriction.

[Barook]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8rUeQiWsAA79Nk.jpg

That's interesting, at the very least. Basically a Berserk for the whole team.

Edit: It's no Aether Vial, but you can double dip with instants during your opponent's turn:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8rXjojXUAEov3s.jpg

How does this work suspend spells like Ancestral Vision? :really:

[morgan_coke]

According to the way the rules are written right now, you can use any of the Suspend cards with that immediately. Or later on since it's X or less.

EDIT: So time until As Foretold gets banned in some format? It took like, tops, 10 seconds of thinking about that to understand how stupid and broken it is. Especially with the instants and double dipping. 2 turns and Counterspell is an improved FoW, and that's a LONG way from the most abusable thing to do with it.

EDIT2: Wait, is that FUCKING MYTHIC!?!?! Jesus wizards, talk about a cash grab.

EDIT3: Guess we know why they chose this time to change split cards.

And seriously, do they test cards at all? How did this look like a smart thing to do?

EDIT4: Restore Balance, Lotus Bloom, Wheel of Fate and Hypergenesis all seem like better options to use with this than Vision. Heck, maybe even Living End.

[Barook]

According to the way the rules are written right now, you can use any of the Suspend cards with that immediately. Or later on since it's X or less.

EDIT: So time until As Foretold gets banned in some format? It took like, tops, 10 seconds of thinking about that to understand how stupid and broken it is. Especially with the instants and double dipping. 2 turns and Counterspell is an improved FoW, and that's a LONG way from the most abusable thing to do with it.
You're still required to pay additional costs, e.g. Natural Order (can't think of a better example right now), right?

[Hanni]

As Foretold would be broken if it cost less mana, but at that cost, why combo it with an Anestral Visions when you can run Show and Tell and Grislebrand instead?

[Barachai]

Seems like it might make for a fun Burning Wish control deck; Restore Balance, anyone?

That said, it's kinda do nothing for a while, and you can't put too much abuse in your deck without making it super clunky. Still, free stuff...

[morgan_coke]

I think the only time free spells has not been broken as a mechanic is when they make it so onerous it's unplayable. Like with Soul Spike, which still sees play in niche decks anyways.

This is probably ok in Legacy because everything costs 1 anyway. Although that also makes it turn on both turns super quickly. But in Standard and Modern this is going to be a nightmare. Especially Modern. And it'll be harder for them to ban it because the $$ price on this will be insane.

[Darkenslight]

As Foretold would be broken if it cost less mana, but at that cost, why combo it with an Anestral Visions when you can run Show and Tell and Grislebrand instead?

Because it slowly ramps up the number of cards you may cast. It feels a lot like it's crawling up the design space of the Expertises and Brain in a Jar.

[morgan_coke]

Every UGx deck in Modern now starts 4x Noble Hierarch, 4x Ancestral Visions, 4x As Foretold.

[square_two]

Every UGx deck in Modern now starts 4x Noble Hierarch, 4x Ancestral Visions, 4x As Foretold.

Ancestral Visions doesn't even work with this. As Foretold conveniently says that it reduces the mana cost "you cast"...and you can't cast Ancestral from hand.

Edit: Currently some debate on this, I'm not sure :/

See this. (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/63oet6/akh_as_foretold/dfvqdu3/)

[Parcher]

Don't see how this is different than Fist of Sun's. Which Oracle says works.

[Richard Cheese]

Don't see how this is different than Fist of Sun's. Which Oracle says works.

Good call. Not sure why the templating is different than things like Brain in a Jar or Cascade, but it's exactly the same as Fist of Suns.

[Hanni]

Because it slowly ramps up the number of cards you may cast. It feels a lot like it's crawling up the design space of the Expertises and Brain in a Jar.

It's a 3 mana enchantment that will eventually let you cast some spells for free? Just not seeing it. If you run spells in higher cc ranges to abuse the mana generation, you're running a slow and clunky deck without your namesake. If you're just looking to cast mostly low cost spells for free... I don't think that's relevant by the time you're able to resolve a blue 3cc enchantment. The payoff is to combo it with Suspend cards, which is worse than playing Show and Tell. The card might be broken in Modern, but it's not going to do anything Legacy.

[Elpresidente]

According to the way the rules are written right now, you can use any of the Suspend cards with that immediately. Or later on since it's X or less.

EDIT: So time until As Foretold gets banned in some format? It took like, tops, 10 seconds of thinking about that to understand how stupid and broken it is. Especially with the instants and double dipping. 2 turns and Counterspell is an improved FoW, and that's a LONG way from the most abusable thing to do with it.

EDIT2: Wait, is that FUCKING MYTHIC!?!?! Jesus wizards, talk about a cash grab.

EDIT3: Guess we know why they chose this time to change split cards.

And seriously, do they test cards at all? How did this look like a smart thing to do?

EDIT4: Restore Balance, Lotus Bloom, Wheel of Fate and Hypergenesis all seem like better options to use with this than Vision. Heck, maybe even Living End.

Naw the wording of the spell makes me think otherwise. When you cast a spell, you can pay 0 instead when condition, but you can't cast suspend cards from hand

[Parcher]

Naw the wording of the spell makes me think otherwise. When you cast a spell, you can pay 0 instead when condition, but you can't cast suspend cards from hand


You can't "normally" cast spells with no mana cost. This changes that. Nowhere does it say suspend cards can't be cast from hand.

[morgan_coke]

It says you can pay 0 instead of the CMC as long as the CMC is less than or = to the # of counters. The suspend cards have a CMC of zero. So you can pay 0 "instead" of a CMC of 0. It works. Unless they change the rules.

Also, you guys are being surprisingly optimistic about this thing in Legacy. It's not like Vision is unplayable in Legacy control decks already. And it's not like casting Brainstorm or StP or whatever card you give flashback with Snapcaster Mage is a BAD thing. It doesn't win on the spot anymore than say, a Winter Orb did. Sometimes you'll win through it. But a lot of the time, it's game over when you untap with this in play, it'll just take your opponent awhile to realize it.

EDIT: Crap. It doesn't say anything about from hand on it. You can use Snapcaster and this to flashback Ancestral Visions on your turn. Yay.

[MaximumC]

According to the way the rules are written right now, you can use any of the Suspend cards with that immediately. Or later on since it's X or less.

EDIT: So time until As Foretold gets banned in some format? It took like, tops, 10 seconds of thinking about that to understand how stupid and broken it is. Especially with the instants and double dipping. 2 turns and Counterspell is an improved FoW, and that's a LONG way from the most abusable thing to do with it.

EDIT2: Wait, is that FUCKING MYTHIC!?!?! Jesus wizards, talk about a cash grab.


Eh you can use suspend cards immediately with the Expertise cycle already. Though, I admit that 2U for a Hypergenesis is SIGNIFICANTLY better than paying 1RR and needing a target. I'm still not sure how stoked Show and Tell for Suspend cards should make you.

As for the other use cases you suggest... LOL? Force of Will is a terrible Magic card, but it's a necessary evil because you need to be ready to interact on turn 0. It covers your ass while you set yourself up and try to assemble your own game plan. It's a panic button. If you need to pay 2U at sorcery speed and then wait two turns before you use it... it is not Force of Will. I grant you that having the shields up like that is a pretty spiffy, but it's more like crappy Counterbalance than like Force.

[Hanni]

It says you can pay 0 instead of the CMC as long as the CMC is less than or = to the # of counters. The suspend cards have a CMC of zero. So you can pay 0 "instead" of a CMC of 0. It works. Unless they change the rules.

Also, you guys are being surprisingly optimistic about this thing in Legacy. It's not like Vision is unplayable in Legacy control decks already. And it's not like casting Brainstorm or StP or whatever card you give flashback with Snapcaster Mage is a BAD thing. It doesn't win on the spot anymore than say, a Winter Orb did. Sometimes you'll win through it. But a lot of the time, it's game over when you untap with this in play, it'll just take your opponent awhile to realize it.

EDIT: Crap. It doesn't say anything about from hand on it. You can use Snapcaster and this to flashback Ancestral Visions on your turn. Yay.

I really don't see how casting 1cc spells for 0 mana once per turn is remotely worth playing a 3 mana cost enchantment. Would Aether Vial see play if it cost 3 mana? This thing is garbage in Legacy at it's printed cost. It may have been playable at 2 mana, but I'd still be skeptical. At 1 mana, the card would have been absurd... probably format warping. At 3 mana, it's not doing anything.

[Barook]

EDIT: Crap. It doesn't say anything about from hand on it. You can use Snapcaster and this to flashback Ancestral Visions on your turn. Yay.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way since Flashback and the :0: alternate casting are two different things.

It should work with Jace, Telepath Unbound, though. Drawing 6 cards over two turns should be pretty good.

[Lord Seth]

According to the way the rules are written right now, you can use any of the Suspend cards with that immediately. Or later on since it's X or less.

EDIT: So time until As Foretold gets banned in some format? It took like, tops, 10 seconds of thinking about that to understand how stupid and broken it is. Especially with the instants and double dipping. 2 turns and Counterspell is an improved FoW, and that's a LONG way from the most abusable thing to do with it.I don't see it getting banned anywhere. You say "2 turns and Counterspell is an improved FoW" but this thing already costs 3 mana. Force of Will's whole strength is the ability to cast it whenever, not just wait until the third turn. Sure, acceleration can throw it out faster, but why not use that acceleration for something more proactive?


EDIT4: Restore Balance, Lotus Bloom, Wheel of Fate and Hypergenesis all seem like better options to use with this than Vision. Heck, maybe even Living End.They don't seem all that good to me. Consider Hypergenesis. All you're really doing is playing Show and Tell (even the same mana cost) but requiring an extra card to pull it off; in other words, it's straight up worse than Show and Tell is. True, there is the possibility to dump a Griselbrand AND Emrakul into play, but the extra card requirement to pull it off strikes me as mediocre. Someone might try to say "but you can cast other stuff with it" but if you're trying for Hypergenesis there's not that much else your deck is going to be wanting to do other than cast Hypergenesis. Perhaps existing builds of Hypergenesis could add a copy or two in so they could cast any copies of Hypergenesis that happen to end up in their hand, but I don't think that's suddenly going to make Hypergenesis better than Show and Tell.

I expect this is a card some people will get really excited about, try to work into a deck, and then soon realize it's not really that good.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Maybe it's really good in Modern and can abuse the suspend cards there.


It says you can pay 0 instead of the CMC as long as the CMC is less than or = to the # of counters. The suspend cards have a CMC of zero. So you can pay 0 "instead" of a CMC of 0. It works. Unless they change the rules.

Also, you guys are being surprisingly optimistic about this thing in Legacy. It's not like Vision is unplayable in Legacy control decks already. And it's not like casting Brainstorm or StP or whatever card you give flashback with Snapcaster Mage is a BAD thing. It doesn't win on the spot anymore than say, a Winter Orb did. Sometimes you'll win through it. But a lot of the time, it's game over when you untap with this in play, it'll just take your opponent awhile to realize it.

EDIT: Crap. It doesn't say anything about from hand on it. You can use Snapcaster and this to flashback Ancestral Visions on your turn. Yay.

You can't use Snapcaster in any meaningful way with Ancestral Visions and this card doesn't change that. Snapcaster gives cards flashback equal to their mana cost and cannot cheat spells that have no mana cost.

Yagmoth's Will or Jace Vryn's Prodigy, with this enchantment in play, would let you cast Ancestral Visions for free from the graveyard though.

edit: sorry, Barook said the same thing

[Barook]

I don't see it getting banned anywhere. You say "2 turns and Counterspell is an improved FoW" but this thing already costs 3 mana.
Yes, it costs 3 mana. Which means it can be online as early as T2 with DRS to shit out Ancestrals. Bonus points for being a mana fixer, which has been an overlooked part so far.

Maximum Magical Christmasland: Casting Wheel of Fate with Leovold in play, because fuck da police! (or Notion Thief if you want to stay Modern-legal; Edit: Spirit of the Labyrinth wouldn't really work in your favor in that case, so nevermind)

A BUG value build might have potential to do very silly things.

[Lord Seth]

This is probably ok in Legacy because everything costs 1 anyway. Although that also makes it turn on both turns super quickly. But in Standard and Modern this is going to be a nightmare. Especially Modern. And it'll be harder for them to ban it because the $$ price on this will be insane.
I actually have major doubts it'll see much play in Modern. Yes, it combos nicely with Ancestral Vision. But stop and remember that you're spending two cards and 3 mana to draw three cards. And if you're not using that combo, then it takes a while to be able to do anything. Now, of course, you can use it to get that Ancestral Vision, then build it up and do more stuff with it, but all of that takes time, and Modern is a format that is not friendly to people who spend time waiting for something like that. And by the time you can build up the counters to cast stuff, you could've just cast those things normally to begin with. I can't really see much that would want to play it. Maybe control decks could use it as a way to "hold up" mana for counterspells (they'd be the ones with Ancestral Vision anyway), but it requires you to tap out to cast the thing and hope your opponent doesn't get anything through in the meantime, and then you have to wait several turns to tick up to that. And it's not like control decks are tearing up the metagame in Modern, so I can't imagine they'd somehow get too good.

Living End is a possibility, as it can cast the titular card if it's in your hand and it doesn't require a target like Demonic Dread, but requires you to strain the manabase a bit more to accomodate it. At any rate, that's just a mild buff to a deck, not it being a nightmare.

I don't think it would be broken in Standard either, though I'll admit judging something in Standard is tricky, particularly without the rest of the set. Still, I expect it'll be a good card in Standard for accruing advantage over the course of the game, but not anything that would merit banning discussion.

[CutthroatCasual]

Don't forget this is once per turn.

It'll be brewed in Modern but in Legacy there's better things you could be doing with a T1 DRS T2 land drop.

[Jander78]

As Fortold looks bonkers in Legacy. Not just great with suspend cards, but anything in the 0-3 range.

[morgan_coke]

Seriously, I don't get what's wrong with you people. Free spells are amazing, why are you thinking they'll all of a sudden be bad?

I mean free spells is CONSISTENTLY the mechanic Wizards has screwed up the most often. For like, 25 years straight now.

[Scott]

I've had it up to fucking here with the Cheetah tribal power creep.
No reason to even play the king of the tribe in the deck anymore.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/131/150/636270146454189199.png http://magiccards.info/scans/en/vi/60.jpg

[Purple Blood]

They don't seem all that good to me. Consider Hypergenesis. All you're really doing is playing Show and Tell (even the same mana cost) but requiring an extra card to pull it off; in other words, it's straight up worse than Show and Tell is. True, there is the possibility to dump a Griselbrand AND Emrakul into play, but the extra card requirement to pull it off strikes me as mediocre. Someone might try to say "but you can cast other stuff with it" but if you're trying for Hypergenesis there's not that much else your deck is going to be wanting to do other than cast Hypergenesis. Perhaps existing builds of Hypergenesis could add a copy or two in so they could cast any copies of Hypergenesis that happen to end up in their hand, but I don't think that's suddenly going to make Hypergenesis better than Show and Tell.

I expect this is a card some people will get really excited about, try to work into a deck, and then soon realize it's not really that good.

This isn't going to be in a Legacy combo deck. I think you're way too focused on how this interacts with suspend and not thinking about how it adds value and tempo once it starts snowballing. This is not a combo enabler as much as it is a short-term tempo loss in exchange for a long-term tempo gain.

What will determine if this becomes playable in non rotating formats is whether the former loss is worth the latter gain. If you can get over that initial hump of a one turn do nothing then you are in value town. Keep in mind one lotus bloom off this card regains all initial tempo loss; a deck with 4 Black Lotus and 4 Ancestral Recalls has to be good right? You can also really start doing some nasty things with cards that untap your lands.

For Legacy I might want to test this out in a Standstill deck. If you have this dude out and drop a Standstill it really puts pressure on them to give you a draw three. If you let a few turns pass with this out the Standstill player is going to vomit out a bunch of cards and end the game.

For Modern I see this as a nice card that might allow a control deck to keep up tempo wise. I don't play the format enough to really comment though.

[Claymore]

Yeah that card is pretty nuts imo. Not that great for Hypergenesis or Visions in legacy, but being able to slowly chain spell after spell without paying mana is crazy value.

I don't know if it's strong enough for Legacy or if there's a shell for it period, maybe BUG. Legacy generally tops out at like 3 mana, not that great of a return to be casting ponders and brainstorms all game. Playing suspend cards would be terrible too. Maybe a build around though.

I think it'll be a force in modern though, with crap like Grixis durdle decks with Visions, Serum, and loads of removal. Dropping 4 mana spells (vampire dude) and still holding up Cryptic each turn is nuts.

[Hanni]

This card doesn't chain spell after spell, it's an Aether Vial effect, i.e one use per turn. I don't understand how anyone could think paying 3 mana for an Aether Vial, albeit for all spells and not just creatures, is even remotely playable in Legacy. What tempo could you possibly hope to gain with this thing? By the time you can successfully resolve a 3 mana enchantment, you don't care about casting cheap spells for free. If you run clunky higher cc spells to get value off of this card, you're playing shitty spells. By the time you start getting more mana in return than what you spent to cast it, is what... turn 6? Assuming you're running other clunky 3cc spells, of course.

Am I being trolled here?

[wcm8]

The fact that Once Foretold says once EACH turn instead of YOUR turn makes it even more absurd. Like, you can easily cast counterspells and other various instants on each of your opponent's turns. Wouldn't Aether Vial be more absurd if it untapped at EACH upkeep? This is similar in terms of providing a free consistent source of mana, but for spells.

Card is busted.

[rufus]

..By the time you start getting more mana in return than what you spent to cast it, is what... turn 6? Assuming you're running other clunky 3cc spells, of course.

Am I being trolled here?

If you hit Wheel of Fate or Restore Balance it's probably worth the cost on the turn it comes out. Without the suspend spells breakeven is on your second turn after it comes into play.

[morgan_coke]

I'd say, best guess at a Legacy As Foretold shell looks something like this:

4x DRS
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Baby Jace
3x Leovold of Trest

4x Brainstorm
4x As Foretold
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Force of Will
4x Fatal Push
4x TS

4x Wasteland
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x USea
3x TropIsl
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Island

Or something like that, I don't know what a bug or bant type legacy list looks like anymore, but that's a lotta free spells right there. Maybe in a straight UG shell with Rishadan Ports and Wastes where you plan to use your mana to lock down theirs while casting spells? Dunno, but I think it's definitely very doable. And I think you want Baby Jace to re-use spells and pitch extra copies that you don't feed to force.

[Cire]

Yeah, i just noticed the once each turn thing. . .

Cast As Fortold - Suspend Spell
Untap - 1 mana spell free
Opponents turn - 1 mana instant free
Untap - 2 mana spell free
Opponents turn - 2 mana instant free

It's pretty crazy IMO

[maharis]

You have to put a counter on it. Which means that you get one turn cycle at 0 cmc, one at 1 cmc, one at 2 cmc, one at 3 cmc etc

I kind of like it in the Splinter Twin decks that have been bandied about. You get free spells to hold up disruption and you can cast your Exarch for free on their turn, then add a counter and get a free Twin with all your lands untapped. It draws enchantment removal away from Twin itself and taxes Decay.

Cool set for build-arounds but I'm not sure any of them can compete with the raw power of Legacy at the moment

[Hanni]

I'll just add one more bit and then leave well enough alone.

This card provides mana ramp/accel at a point in the game when you should no longer need mana ramp/accel.

[Cire]

You have to put a counter on it. Which means that you get one turn cycle at 0 cmc, one at 1 cmc, one at 2 cmc, one at 3 cmc etc


You can double dip on your opponent's turns too.

[wcm8]

I'll just add one more bit and then leave well enough alone.

This card provides mana ramp/accel at a point in the game when you should no longer need mana ramp/accel.

Eh, let's not even consider the situations where you're able to push this out early with a Mana Dork and/or other form of Acceleration. Even on Turn 3 it's good. Consider that it doesn't *just* provide ramp and acceleration. It also:
-provides color fixing
-provides a LOT of ramp payoff quite quickly -- consider being able to cast instants of cmc 2 or 3+ on BOTH your turn AND your opponent's turns without having to expend mana from your other permanents -- even in the mid/late-game, this can be relevant by letting you play around taxing counterspells like Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm
-lets you cast busted Suspend spells IMMEDIATELY once drawn... and it's not like suspending AVision on turn 1 is all that bad either, so your control deck is still playing decent cards that have utility on their own. Once you get the ball rolling, you can very easily chain multiple Draw 3s (or even potentially Draw 7s) into each other, just burying your opponent in card advantage -- potentially as early as turn 2 or 3

Letting this enchantment resolve/stay on-board is going to be BAD news, because any deck built to abuse it is going to very quickly take over the game.

[Scott]

What's Carsten Kotter up to these days? He was always good at assessing the dangerousness of new cards for Legacy.

[Megadeus]

Probably got tired of legacy because it sucks

[Jander78]

I'll just add one more bit and then leave well enough alone.

This card provides mana ramp/accel at a point in the game when you should no longer need mana ramp/accel.
It's not ramp or excel, it's the fact that you can conserve resources in a control deck that makes this card desirable. Being able to withhold mana for counters/reactionary spells (or cast them for free) while maintaining tempo is huge. As mentioned previously, it's great at color fixing, meaning you don't have to worry about Wasteland keeping you off a color, or Blood Moon hosing you. I'm definitely viewing this from a control perspective, as I feel that may be the best fit for it.

[Cire]

Letting this enchantment resolve/stay on-board is going to be BAD news, because any deck built to abuse it is going to very quickly take over the game.

I don't think you really need to build around it.

Let's say you're playing a deck with only 4 visions as it's the most generally useful suspend spell. . . your decklist automatically starts off as:

4 As Foretold
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Assume to Accel for now. . . to "abuse" it you only need to be able to cheat a 1 mana card, a 1 mana instant, a 2 mana card and a 2 mana instant. . . around turn 3 and including BS, you only need:

7 1 mana cards
3 1 mana instants
6 2 mana cards
6 2 mana instant

That leaves 22 spots for lands. More than enough. Just need to pick what those cards are. I'm going to assume you'll be BUG since you need Decay to deal with chalice and CB with that layout. Working off the usual BUG lists those cards would also include

4 DRS
3 Thought Seize
2 Fatal Push
1 Spell Pierce
4 Goyf
2 Strix
4 Decay

The missing two 2 cmc instants can counterspells for now for a list that looks sort of like a Shardless variant

[Dice_Box]

It doesn't excite me. Granted I am often a terrible pick with new cards and my idea of a control deck plays Smokestack. This is powerful sure, but is it really strong enough to build around?

[Megadeus]

I'm down to play free wheel of fortune and free black lotus off of this. I'm fucking sold.

[Jander78]

It doesn't excite me. Granted I am often a terrible pick with new cards and my idea of a control deck plays Smokestack. This is powerful sure, but is it really strong enough to build around?
I don't think building around it is the right way to look at it. It's not a combo card that's going to win you the game. It's a tempo card (think Aether Vial) that will help your deck chug along. It may not be worth the slot in the long run, but at first glance, it looks solid to me in the right control(ish) deck.

[morgan_coke]

Which card types count as "spell" anyway? Is it just instant and sorcery now? That feels right, but you never know with wizards these days.

[Megadeus]

Spell is anything you cast. Basically any non land

[morgan_coke]

Spell is anything you cast. Basically any non land

I know it used to be that way, but do creatures still count? Enchantments? Artifacts?

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm not so sure about this card. My first point of comparison was Shardless Agent but the more I think about it, the less I like As Foretold in that comparison; Shardless does something when you're behind, whereas As Foretold seems very win-more unless you're holding a specific card the turn you cast it. Even then, what's your best case? Visions? Restore Balance? Hypergenesis? I'm not actually sure.

Historically, cards like this - where value isn't realized until a few turns later - have been pretty bad unless they generate absolutely insane tempo advantages, like Counterbalance does. Aether Vial, another close point of comparison, gives you board advantage and can also function as a trick in some decks (D&T), so I don't think it's an accurate way to gauge this card either. I don't think it has any real combo potential because it's capped at once per turn and has the same mana cost as Show and Tell regardless.

Is it a Miracles sideboard card, to get ahead in the mirror? You resolve it, and then you can hold mana for counters up while cantripping aggressively. It lets you tap out a bit more fearlessly, too, I suppose. On the other hand, that deck is pretty resilient to Blood Moon already and the Top + CB engine, plus Brainstorm and Snapcaster, already give you a commanding value advantage.

So...I don't know. I'm not seeing it.

[Ronald Deuce]

This card provides mana ramp/accel at a point in the game when you should no longer need mana ramp/accel.

This.

The effect is extremely powerful, but it feels to me like decks that might use the card either will be late to the party, or they'll already be in control of the game without having cast it.

As for other formats, I can't really say. Looks potentially viable in Modern, and like it could be a house in Commander. But in Legacy I don't think it's going to do much, if anything. Maybe it'll replace some extant win-con in a control shell or something. But in that case, it's the shell that's doing the work anyway.

New Gideon looks extremely aggravating. I didn't need any confirmation that Wizz loves Death and Taxes; I'm wondering when they'll figure out that the deck doesn't need any help.

I guess the good news is that it dies to a ton of format stalwarts, but the bad news is that D&T already does a pretty great job of gumming up the board as things stand. But what to replace?

[Aggro_zombies]

There's theoretically some kind of near tap-out control or midrange deck that would love to resolve As Foretold against Miracles and then grind them to dust, but I have no idea what it would be. Miracles itself isn't particularly looking to utilize all its mana every turn anyway, at least in the mirror where you're not under a ton of time pressure to do things to stabilize. That said, I haven't played a Legacy control mirror in a looooooooooong time, so I could be wildly off-base here.

[kombatkiwi]

Maybe it's a Sapphire Medallion replacement for AJ Sacher's old Accumulated Knowledge deck? I agree that it probably works best in some sort of incremental value shell and that any attempts to combo around it will probably be worse than SNT/Cascade.

There are super weird things you can do with this card in graveyard/intuition value decks, like playing Worm Harvest or Gigapede for free, you can free Nightmare Void whenever you want, etc. If you want to be the Mayor of Durdle Town you can even play Panglacial Wurm with it but I think that's probably going a bit too far.

[Dice_Box]

I don't think building around it is the right way to look at it. It's not a combo card that's going to win you the game. It's a tempo card (think Aether Vial) that will help your deck chug along. It may not be worth the slot in the long run, but at first glance, it looks solid to me in the right control(ish) deck.

Vial is an interesting comparison. The advantage of Vial is with it out you can continue to threaten the board while using your mana to attack another's base, with this I guess you could leave mana open for counters, but in most cases, hard control focuses on Free or 1 mana counters anyway. That or pure lock effects. If your not trying to leave your mana open for interaction, I would think then you would seek out an advantage by using this to achieve something you otherwise can't. Recall cast from hand for example.

The issue I see is that while it itself has a high ceilings, it's hard to achieve. Vial decks have a high level of synergy among all the corresponding pieces, to use this to a similar effectiveness you would want more than just Counterspells to cast. Playing this and then doing nothing with it due to having only reactive or conditional cards seems like an unfortunate side effect of the suggested plan of attack.

Granted, that same argument can be made about Shardless, that its conditional and requires set up. Didn't stop it showing real promise and power. I think I am on the "Wait and see" train. I at this point am unsold.

[Megadeus]

Maybe it's a Sapphire Medallion replacement for AJ Sacher's old Accumulated Knowledge deck? I agree that it probably works best in some sort of incremental value shell and that any attempts to combo around it will probably be worse than SNT/Cascade.

There are super weird things you can do with this card in graveyard/intuition value decks, like playing Worm Harvest or Gigapede for free, you can free Nightmare Void whenever you want, etc. If you want to be the Mayor of Durdle Town you can even play Panglacial Wurm with it but I think that's probably going a bit too far.

Wow you're going way deeper than even I am and I feel like I'm going pretty deep on it.

[Gheizen64]

Gideon + 20 pacts .dec

[Jander78]

Vial is an interesting comparison. The advantage of Vial is with it out you can continue to threaten the board while using your mana to attack another's base, with this I guess you could leave mana open for counters, but in most cases, hard control focuses on Free or 1 mana counters anyway. That or pure lock effects. If your not trying to leave your mana open for interaction, I would think then you would seek out an advantage by using this to achieve something you otherwise can't. Recall cast from hand for example.

The issue I see is that while it itself has a high ceilings, it's hard to achieve. Vial decks have a high level of synergy among all the corresponding pieces, to use this to a similar effectiveness you would want more than just Counterspells to cast. Playing this and then doing nothing with it due to having only reactive or conditional cards seems like an unfortunate side effect of the suggested plan of attack.

Granted, that same argument can be made about Shardless, that its conditional and requires set up. Didn't stop it showing real promise and power. I think I am on the "Wait and see" train. I at this point am unsold.
Good points. I'm not a 100% sold either, but the eye test for me has a lot of potential. The biggest advantage I see with this card is the "X or less" text, where the value over time becomes exponential. Being able to eventually cast any card for free on your turn and/or during your opponents, could be worth the slots in a deck; doing nothing on its own may be its death knell.

[mistercakes]

can somebody make a deck with 12 final fortunes, gideon, and angel's grace. maybe isochron sceptor for grace/final fortune (the portal ones are sorcery)

[Noctalor]

can somebody make a deck with 12 final fortunes, gideon, and angel's grace. maybe isochron sceptor for grace/final fortune (the portal ones are sorcery)

// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage

// 22 Instant
4 Final Fortune
4 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
2 Angel's Grace
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

// 19 Land
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Gideon

// 12 Sorcery
4 Last Chance
4 Warrior's Oath
4 Gitaxian Probe


Cast final fortune, go in the extra turn, cast gideon, protect him with the pacts, chain walk while beating with a 4/4, profit

[Gheizen64]

// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage

// 22 Instant
4 Final Fortune
4 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
2 Angel's Grace
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

// 19 Land
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Gideon, Battle-Forged

// 12 Sorcery
4 Last Chance
4 Warrior's Oath
4 Gitaxian Probe


Cast final fortune, go in the extra turn, cast gideon, protect him with the pacts, chain walk while beating with a 4/4, profit

Decks seems actually playable lol, 12 time walks + gids notbad.

[Chatto]

I see a spike incoming ;)

[Darkenslight]

I really don't see how casting 1cc spells for 0 mana once per turn is remotely worth playing a 3 mana cost enchantment. Would Aether Vial see play if it cost 3 mana? This thing is garbage in Legacy at it's printed cost. It may have been playable at 2 mana, but I'd still be skeptical. At 1 mana, the card would have been absurd... probably format warping. At 3 mana, it's not doing anything.

No, but it works hilariously with Proliferate, to quote one example. Add in the ramping effect and you have a card with potential. Now, I'm not sure that the potnetial will be realised in Legacy, but it's gonna be a huge ramp card in Commander.

[Noctalor]

// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Yolo
4 As Foretold

// 5 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

// 16 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

// 21 Land
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 12 Sorcery
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Burning Wish
2 Restore Balance
4 Ponder


// 4 Sideboard
// 4 Sorcery
SB: 1 Restore Balance
SB: 1 Living End
SB: 1 Ancestral Vision
SB: 1 Meltdown

Made this up in few minutes, seems a reasonable starting point

[bruizar]

I've had it up to fucking here with the Cheetah tribal power creep.
No reason to even play the king of the tribe in the deck anymore.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/131/150/636270146454189199.png http://magiccards.info/scans/en/vi/60.jpg

Relax. This is not powercreep


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b3hDvRjJA

[colo]

As Foretold seems like a rather strong way to break the symmetry of Armageddon, Winter Orb, et al.

[Poron]

Deathrite Shaman and Mox Diamond do it already for 0 turns and 1 mana

[mistercakes]

// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage

// 22 Instant
4 Final Fortune
4 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
2 Angel's Grace
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

// 19 Land
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Gideon

// 12 Sorcery
4 Last Chance
4 Warrior's Oath
4 Gitaxian Probe


Cast final fortune, go in the extra turn, cast gideon, protect him with the pacts, chain walk while beating with a 4/4, profit

looks great! good approach. it completely slipped my mind that gideon is also a wincon himself. dumb card.

[bruizar]

Cut//Ribbons looks like a really powerful card. 2 mana, kill a creature. Lategame, finish your opponent. That card will have a big impact on standard

[morgan_coke]

All of the suspend cards are spiking hard on MTGO, many are sold out, for whatever that's worth.

[CptHaddock]

All of the suspend cards are spiking hard on MTGO, many are sold out, for whatever that's worth.

Are you telling me that I buy all the Hypergenesises?

[Claymore]

No, it's banned in Modern.

That Final Fortune deck looks hilarious and can actually win, damn it.

As Foretold also can do work with Stasis decks.

Maybe Slaughter Pact in the Gideon Fortune deck instead of Titan? Or just Ponder to give you more blue for Force. There's also Intervention Pact which can protect Gideon from burn, since I think it would have to be targeted to you first...?

[rufus]

...


Cast final fortune, go in the extra turn, cast gideon, protect him with the pacts, chain walk while beating with a 4/4, profit

You can run Day's Undoing too, and I'm not sure whether Stifle is a better way to go than Angel's Grace.

[Claymore]

Quick internet search says you can do this. Burning a Walker is a redirection (replacement) effect, and Pact is also a replacement effect. Since you're the effected player, you choose which to apply first. Apply the Pact first, the damage is prevented, the burn redirection fizzles.

[mistercakes]

no reason not to tinker around with this deck a little more. stifle is probably great in the current meta anyway, but i think i would be more encouraged to run trickbind as it stops everything more or less except for counterbalance on 2. maybe some kind of combination of stifle/trickbind to also hate on their mana base? anywho. will have fun with this concept. too bad that portal card is like 40 bucks.

[Claymore]

Quick, get this tech over to the turds at Quiet Speculation so they can make it a $200 card.

[ReAnimator]

http://i.imgur.com/ljrZ5eT.png

Probably doesn't affect Legacy all that much, but this seems like a beating in Vintage.

[morgan_coke]

Throne of the God Pharoah
2
Legendary Artifact
At the beginning of your end step, each opponent loses life equal to the number of tapped creatures you control.

Yeah, because aggro was clearly hurting in Modern and Standard. Big boost to tokens and especially to Chord of Calling and mana dorks.

[Noctalor]

No, it's banned in Modern.

That Final Fortune deck looks hilarious and can actually win, damn it.

As Foretold also can do work with Stasis decks.

Maybe Slaughter Pact in the Gideon Fortune deck instead of Titan? Or just Ponder to give you more blue for Force. There's also Intervention Pact which can protect Gideon from burn, since I think it would have to be targeted to you first...?

spawning random 4/4 will surely help us winning the game during the walk chain, btw i think 8 walks are more than enought, and i also think that im likely going to build this deck irl to have fun

[mistercakes]

yea i was missing only the time walks which cost around 10 bucks total and then i'll just wait on the gideons..hoping to open in prize packs :D

feel free to head onto the slack if you ever want to brew it up and tweak it.

[Barook]

// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage

// 22 Instant
4 Final Fortune
4 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
2 Angel's Grace
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

// 19 Land
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Gideon

// 12 Sorcery
4 Last Chance
4 Warrior's Oath
4 Gitaxian Probe


Cast final fortune, go in the extra turn, cast gideon, protect him with the pacts, chain walk while beating with a 4/4, profit
Kudos to you - awesome concept.

Considering the Isochron Scepter version was called Final Fantasy, then how you do you call this? Final Fantasy II? Dragon Quest? Dark Souls? :laugh:

[bruizar]

Kudos to you - awesome concept.

Considering the Isochron Scepter version was called Final Fantasy, then how you do you call this? Final Fantasy II? Dragon Quest? Dark Souls? :laugh:

Secret of Mana

[Barook]

Secret of Mana
Great find, although now that you mention it, Chrono Trigger would fit the time fuckery theme better.

[morgan_coke]

Curator of Mysteries
2UU
Creature - Sphinx
Flying
Whenever you cycle or discard another card, Scry 1
Cycling: U
4/4

Yeah, that'll play in any Cycling deck. Easy 4x in Slide. Great card. So is Cycling Blue/White now? Or are we just not seeing the good cards in other colors yet?

This and Cast Out are both 4x in a UW Slide deck. It'll be weird to have counters and not an impossible combo matchup in Slide.

[Navsi]

Kudos to you - awesome concept.

Considering the Isochron Scepter version was called Final Fantasy, then how you do you call this? Final Fantasy II? Dragon Quest? Dark Souls? :laugh:

Warrior of Light?

- Main character from Final Fantasy 1
- plays Warrior's Oath
- Gideon is basically a JRPG main character except with less interesting hair

[Julian23]

Chrono Trigger is an AMAZING name for this!

[MaximumC]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/131/171/200/283/636270688339600315.png

This guy is amazing. A 4/4 for 4 is already on-curve, though usually not playable in today's world. But, scrying upon discard is a very fine ability in the right deck, and cycling for U already puts it into contention as playable in decks like Unearth. I forsee this card doing WORK in an obscure way in some future deck. I predict a low price initially, and then at some random point in the future someone will find this does exactly what they need, and run it.

Also, a moment of silence for our fallen bretheren:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=382985&type=card
Haha you suck now, bird.

Speaking of power creep...


Relax. This is not powercreep


It is, but it's not a cause for concern. Back in Lowryn block, they made a conscious decision to make creatures more powerful. Costs went down, abilities went up, you could get a 10/10 or above without a hideous drawback. Since then, they've been very loosey-goosey with obsoleting very old cards. Ley Druid got upstaged by a 2-cc version of himself as a Saytr in Theros block. Cheetah got an upgrade. Basically, you're gonna to keep seeing this happen.

When creatures start obsoleting things printed since Lorwyn, THEN you might want to start to get worried.


All of the suspend cards are spiking hard on MTGO, many are sold out, for whatever that's worth.

It's a three part punch.

1. They print the Expertise cycle, which allows people to cast suspend cards for free and people start to buy.
2. They announce a change to the way split cards work, making Expertise/Brain in a Jar/Isochron Scepter no longer work with them; but they still work with Suspend cards, pushing those.
3. They print As Foretold, giving people ANOTHER reason to reach for suspend cards.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/gloryboundinitiate.jpg
Seems good with anything that can grant (pseudo) vigilance. I doubt it would be Legacy-relevant, though.

[morgan_coke]

Yeah, the combo of As Foretold and the Expertise cycle means you can finally play the OG suspend clones with 8+ ways to play them that don't suck, and you no longer have to jump through all the hoops of Cascade, so you can play a real deck with them now. honestly not super thrilled about this development, really wish they hadn't printed As Foretold. It's either going to be super expensive and format warping until it gets banned, or it's going to just be super expensive and format warping.

[Whitefaces]

Not good enough for Modern or Legacy and just gets shot down by Ballista in standard, bit of a dud.

[morgan_coke]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/gloryboundinitiate.jpg
Seems good with anything that can grant (pseudo) vigilance. I doubt it would be Legacy-relevant, though.

The strength of a lot of the Exert cards makes me think we're not going to get a neu-template Slide reprint, because it just makes them too good otherwise.

[TsumiBand]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/131/171/200/283/636270688339600315.png

This guy is amazing. A 4/4 for 4 is already on-curve, though usually not playable in today's world. But, scrying upon discard is a very fine ability in the right deck, and cycling for U already puts it into contention as playable in decks like Unearth. I forsee this card doing WORK in an obscure way in some future deck. I predict a low price initially, and then at some random point in the future someone will find this does exactly what they need, and run it.


It reminds me of Grave-Shell Scarab which IIRC was flirted with in Extended Rock and the Standard it came out in, but was ultimately an engine in search of a deck. Subscribing to cycling/discard makes this card more noteworthy, I think, since cycling may as well be evergreen with its regular reprint status. Scrying before you cycle with that in mind seems like a Small Big Deal.

[Richard Cheese]

Why are we talking about stupid free spells and planeswalkers when this set just dropped the biggest bomb in DECADES!??!

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/131/161/636270574774248601.jpeg

Mother. Fuckin'. Cat. Lord.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=t%3A%22cat%22&v=card&s=cname

143 eligible cats. Time to break all the formats.

[morgan_coke]

Why are we talking about stupid free spells and planeswalkers when this set just dropped the biggest bomb in DECADES!??!

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/131/161/636270574774248601.jpeg

Mother. Fuckin'. Cat. Lord.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=t%3A%22cat%22&v=card&s=cname

143 eligible cats. Time to break all the formats.

I need to get a picture of my dog playing "Kitten Kong vs. Dogzilla" with the cat on her cat tree and post it to this thread with a decklist or something.

EDIT: that link contains both more playable cards and FAR more cat sideboob than I was expecting.

[TsumiBand]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/gloryboundinitiate.jpg
Seems good with anything that can grant (pseudo) vigilance. I doubt it would be Legacy-relevant, though.

Just get Herald of Dromoka to take your Warriors to Village Inn

[Scott]

Relax. This is not powercreep


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b3hDvRjJA

You thought my complaining about power creep within the cheetah tribal archetype was serious?

[Pilhas]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/failurecomply.jpg

This seems interesting in some kind of storm. Bounce chalice and prevent it for 1 turn

[whienot]

This seems interesting in some kind of storm. Bounce chalice and prevent it for 1 turn

Will only bounce Chalice if it's on the stack. "Return target spell..."

[Dice_Box]

Remand and Reflector Mage paired? Ok. The issue I see right off the bat is the white half is not an instant

[Pilhas]

Will only bounce Chalice if it's on the stack. "Return target spell..."

Thanks for pointing that out, read as return target permanent cause I don't know how to read....

[Richard Cheese]

I need to get a picture of my dog playing "Kitten Kong vs. Dogzilla" with the cat on her cat tree and post it to this thread with a decklist or something.

EDIT: that link contains both more playable cards and FAR more cat sideboob than I was expecting.

Pretty sure I did a whole post on cats with tits here at some point.

[Zllig]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/failurecomply.jpg

This seems interesting in some kind of storm. Bounce chalice and prevent it for 1 turn

Jeez. Maybe it's good they changed the split card CMC rule because I would have probably jammed two of these in miracles. Awesome for counterbalance and a pretty decent spell as well.

[TsumiBand]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/failurecomply.jpg

This seems interesting in some kind of storm. Bounce chalice and prevent it for 1 turn

Well, Comply is a Sorcery, so if Chalice is low enough (0 or 1) they may just recast it.

If memory serves, previous split cards didn't have different card types. Combining a mix of spell speeds and sideways orientation is going to cause a lot of misplays, at first anyway.

[Claymore]

Why doesn't the Vizier of Poisons have Poison. Fuck's sake.

[Aggro_zombies]

It actually seems like a reasonably useful Storm card. You can Failure your own spell for +2 Storm or Failure one of their spells, then Comply them on your combo turn to stop Force.

[MaximumC]

The strength of a lot of the Exert cards makes me think we're not going to get a neu-template Slide reprint, because it just makes them too good otherwise.

Psst

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=6046&type=card


Why are we talking about stupid free spells and planeswalkers when this set just dropped the biggest bomb in DECADES!??!

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/131/161/636270574774248601.jpeg

Mother. Fuckin'. Cat. Lord.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=t%3A%22cat%22&v=card&s=cname

143 eligible cats. Time to break all the formats.


I KNOW RIGHT

I actually have a pair of casual decks I made to play with my kids: Cats v. Dogs! It's the best ever. To date, however, Dogs always wins. Cats are fast, but even Wild Nacatl starts to look bad when the 8/8 Werewolf drops in to play. Having an actual cat lord is boss, and is going Right. In. That. Deck.

Even better, CatGod is really good on it's own. Five mana for seven lifelink power? That's REALLY nice. If not for the price trajectory of all recent printings (i.e. into the garbage can) I would preorder this sucker. As it stands, I'll wait till we're in sub-2 dolla range.

EDIT: If enough people want I will post a Deck Tech for the Cats v. Dogs Duel Deck Series.

[CutthroatCasual]

Chrono Trigger is an AMAZING name for this!

And then SCG still names it "Mono White Gideon" on stream :hammer:

[maharis]

Psst

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=6046&type=card



I always forget how this works. You can use this during end of combat step and the creature still deals damage (despite what's written on the card), correct? That's also true of Maze of Ith?

I don't think any exert cards are really Legacy-strong enough to warrant this kind of build around, but with this card and Crop Rotation/Maze there are options.

Cats vs. dogs sounds like fun. It seems like dogs gets a little bit of a power boost from also encompassing wolves though.

[filln]

I always forget how this works. You can use this during end of combat step and the creature still deals damage (despite what's written on the card), correct? That's also true of Maze of Ith?

I don't think any exert cards are really Legacy-strong enough to warrant this kind of build around, but with this card and Crop Rotation/Maze there are options.

Cats vs. dogs sounds like fun. It seems like dogs gets a little bit of a power boost from also encompassing wolves though.

Yeah, you're exactly right for the combat trick. Closest exert card I can think of that could be playable is Combat Celebrant, the one that gives you an extra attack step.

[Stuart]

EDIT: If enough people want I will post a Deck Tech for the Cats v. Dogs Duel Deck Series.

This sounds like worthwhile reading.

[maharis]

Yeah, you're exactly right for the combat trick. Closest exert card I can think of that could be playable is Combat Celebrant, the one that gives you an extra attack step.

Yeah, and that specifically has a clause to prevent you from exerting it twice per turn, so no infinite combat steps. Booooooo

[morgan_coke]

So with Throne of the God Pharoah and As Foretold, is it time to revisit Opposition?

Maybe:

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Llanowar Elves

4x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar

4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Opposition
4x As Foretold
4x Throne of the God Pharoah

20ish lands, some spells?

(I have no idea what opposition decks used to look like)

[MaximumC]

I always forget how this works. You can use this during end of combat step and the creature still deals damage (despite what's written on the card), correct? That's also true of Maze of Ith?

I don't think any exert cards are really Legacy-strong enough to warrant this kind of build around, but with this card and Crop Rotation/Maze there are options.


Correct. Recon makes all your creatures immune to combat damage AND gives them pseudo-vigilance, just like Maze, so it allows you to activate Exert with impunity. Depending on the effects, that could be a valuable thing.

[rufus]

Yeah, and that specifically has a clause to prevent you from exerting it twice per turn, so no infinite combat steps. Booooooo

Yep, when that one was spoiled I looked up Mirror Mockery and that doesn't work either.

[Holmen]

In opposition, you usually tap stuff in opponents upkeep, so a big dissynergy. A big shame, that deck needs some love!


So with Throne of the God Pharoah and As Foretold, is it time to revisit Opposition?

Maybe:

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Llanowar Elves

4x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar

4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Opposition
4x As Foretold
4x Throne of the God Pharoah

20ish lands, some spells?

(I have no idea what opposition decks used to look like)

[Gheizen64]

http://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/articles/Soul-Scar%20Mage.png

Is this playable? Not sure how good the effect is, does it allow you to kill TNN ? If yes this may see play somewhere.

http://i.imgur.com/9xzxBmy.png

This seems extremely undercosted for that kind of effect nowadays. Not playable in legacy, but a good and interesting card nonetheless.

[BenBleiweiss]

And then SCG still names it "Mono White Gideon" on stream :hammer:

You mean "Mono-White Planeswalker", right?

http://i.imgur.com/490vzSh.png

Hits!

[Richard Cheese]

Psst

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=6046&type=card




I KNOW RIGHT

I actually have a pair of casual decks I made to play with my kids: Cats v. Dogs! It's the best ever. To date, however, Dogs always wins. Cats are fast, but even Wild Nacatl starts to look bad when the 8/8 Werewolf drops in to play. Having an actual cat lord is boss, and is going Right. In. That. Deck.

Even better, CatGod is really good on it's own. Five mana for seven lifelink power? That's REALLY nice. If not for the price trajectory of all recent printings (i.e. into the garbage can) I would preorder this sucker. As it stands, I'll wait till we're in sub-2 dolla range.

EDIT: If enough people want I will post a Deck Tech for the Cats v. Dogs Duel Deck Series.

I'm thinking of building a GW EDH deck that just makes lots of tokens and life and wins off Felidar Sovereign. Too bad there's no GW Legendary cat. I'll just have to decide which available commander is the best crazy cat lady I guess. Trostani seems like a pretty solid choice.

[MaximumC]

You mean "Mono-White Planeswalker", right?

http://i.imgur.com/490vzSh.png

Hits!

"Sources you control have Wither."

Seems fine, but I don't think it quite replaces Switfspear. It's a good way to make sure your little burn spells remain relevant against larger threats.

I guess Burn finally is going to get a leg-up in the very common and difficult BURN V. NIC FIT match up, huh?

[BenBleiweiss]

"Sources you control have Wither."

Seems fine, but I don't think it quite replaces Switfspear. It's a good way to make sure your little burn spells remain relevant against larger threats.

I guess Burn finally is going to get a leg-up in the very common and difficult BURN V. NIC FIT match up, huh?

Why replace when you can have redundancy with?

[morgan_coke]

Is Prowess Evergreen now? I thought it was block specific to KtK?

Also, does anyone know how to look up a super old DCI #? Possibly from whatever system they had before the current one?

[Dice_Box]

Why replace when you can have redundancy with?
Because there is not really a card you want to cut to add this.

[Hanni]

Soul-Scar Mage looks pretty good. Should, but probably won't, replace Stormchaser Mage in UR Delver. Also could see play in Burn. Not sure if I'd want it in my Sligh deck, but the ability to Bolt a Goyf or Gurmag is cool. Too bad it's noncombat damage only though.

[Whitefaces]

Looks really good to me.

[BenBleiweiss]

Is Prowess Evergreen now? I thought it was block specific to KtK?

Also, does anyone know how to look up a super old DCI #? Possibly from whatever system they had before the current one?

It's Evergreen. Here's the in-depth article where Mark Rosewater talks about it!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/evergreen-eggs-ham-2015-06-08

IN: Menace, Prowess, Scry

OUT: Intimidate, Landwalk, Protection

[Hanni]

If only Liliana, Death's Majesty was 2BB instead of 3BB...

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/aliaintrazi-04062017-no-rest-for-the-wicked/

[ESG]

Soul-Scar Mage looks pretty good. Should, but probably won't, replace Stormchaser Mage in UR Delver. Also could see play in Burn. Not sure if I'd want it in my Sligh deck, but the ability to Bolt a Goyf or Gurmag is cool. Too bad it's noncombat damage only though.

The one-mana difference might be compelling enough for UR to make the swap. Soul-Scar Mage seems like it would fit into Modern Burn decks better: Maybe take the place of Boros Charm and go lower to the ground, adding more Forked Bolts. This would make it closer to the Sligh decks of old.

[Dice_Box]

If only Liliana, Death's Majesty was 2BB instead of 3BB...

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/aliaintrazi-04062017-no-rest-for-the-wicked/

I love that art, the dress looks like its crushed velvet. Wonderfully done.

[Barook]

// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage

// 22 Instant
4 Final Fortune
4 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
2 Angel's Grace
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

// 19 Land
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Gideon

// 12 Sorcery
4 Last Chance
4 Warrior's Oath
4 Gitaxian Probe

Cast final fortune, go in the extra turn, cast gideon, protect him with the pacts, chain walk while beating with a 4/4, profit
Since the deck is super-reliant on getting Gideon and the rest of the deck being somewhat redundant, wouldn't it make sense to add Serum Powder to the deck to maximize the chance of getting Gideon? Only 4 copies + a few cantrips doesn't seem like a great way to get it. And you can use Brainstorm + fetch to get rid of later drawn Powders.

SB could probably include some Meddling Mages to deal with Abrupt Decay and various combo decks.

[mistercakes]

I'd be more tempted to try the original idea with 2 scepter and 4 grace. Cutting 4 probe 3 snap.

Then I'd cut 1 more land and run 4 Ponder. It's a safer serum powder. :)

[Barook]

I wonder if it's a better route to use Gideon as additional Grace copies and then try to win with Spoils from the Vault/Ad Nauseam + Labatory Maniac instead. Although that's probably the Modern approach.

[mistercakes]

started a new thread so we don't clutter up this one:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31529-Can-t-lose-Gideon&p=998917#post998917

mods: feel free to rename if there's something more catchy.

[Noctalor]

https://i.gyazo.com/5b8afc62bb17d0f0ae4c893708b26777.jpg

I roughtly translated the card this way

Yo cast this fucker and gain 7 HP, it goes on top of your library as the seventh card

You recast it and you win the game

[Lemnear]

https://i.gyazo.com/5b8afc62bb17d0f0ae4c893708b26777.jpg

I roughtly translated the card this way

Yo cast this fucker and gain 7 HP, it goes on top of your library as the seventh card

You recast it and you win the game

Wishable wincon for Omniscience?

[Noctalor]

Wishable wincon for Omniscience?

It should be a sorcery tho

[Lemnear]

It should be a sorcery tho

Of course. If it was an instant, it would go right into Miracles

[Dice_Box]

started a new thread so we don't clutter up this one:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31529-Can-t-lose-Gideon&p=998917#post998917

mods: feel free to rename if there's something more catchy.
No need to change it, about time a non Blue walker got some hype.

[Noctalor]

https://i.gyazo.com/c7689cb96b90831acde4f6e497202800.jpg
http://orig04.deviantart.net/2846/f/2010/029/7/f/holy_macaroni_by_dr_rubber_bum.jpg

[Claymore]

Hmm, yeah I can see Approach of the Second Sun as another win con for Miracles. Run as a 1-of purely to win as aggravatingly slow as possible in a deck filled with Disasterpieces.

[MaximumC]

https://i.gyazo.com/c7689cb96b90831acde4f6e497202800.jpg
http://orig04.deviantart.net/2846/f/2010/029/7/f/holy_macaroni_by_dr_rubber_bum.jpg

You sneaky bastard.

I skimmed the card and read your reaction, and thought for an instant that this card was free to cast if you had seven cards in your hand.

Then I read it, and realized it sucks.

[square_two]

https://i.gyazo.com/c7689cb96b90831acde4f6e497202800.jpg

Card is bonkers. Treasure Cruise for 2 LESS mana?? With upside?

[CptHaddock]

https://i.gyazo.com/c7689cb96b90831acde4f6e497202800.jpg

It certainly does put a new prospective on things.

[rufus]

...

Then I read it, and realized it sucks.

Well, you could combo out with Resounding Thunder. :laugh:

[UnderwaterGuy]

New Perspectives seems like an EDH card for all the Momentary Blink decks. It's definitely a new toy for Brago decls to use.

[Ronald Deuce]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/dissentersdeliverance.jpg

Someone mentioned a Naturalize with cycling. Close?

[rufus]

Card is bonkers. Treasure Cruise for 2 LESS mana?? With upside?

Well, it was pointed out on reddit 'discard this card' is part of the activation cost for cyclers. So between now and the inevitable rules update to fix that, it's a broken card.

[Noctalor]

You sneaky bastard.

I skimmed the card and read your reaction, and thought for an instant that this card was free to cast if you had seven cards in your hand.

Then I read it, and realized it sucks.

Do you realize that this card + a card that has cycle = you draw your deck?

[Claymore]

do you have to reveal the cycle card? Reveal isn't part of cycling...

[morgan_coke]

Do you realize that this card + a card that has cycle = you draw your deck?

Um, not so much? People have failed horrifyingly with that plan and Fluctuator for awhile now. It's not good.

So, Dissenter's Deliverance says Scrap can go eat a fat one. Now we just need a white one for Enchantments.

Man, I really love what this set is doing, printing usable cards with good cycling costs. Even if Drake's Roost is the only Slide/Rift type card in the set, there's already enough to build a deck around it.

Also, that Sphinx is a lot sicker than I realized at first glance. Scry 1 as a trigger on cycle - you can stack the triggers so it's baby Preordain on every cycle - which is amazing, or you can make it a baby Serum Visions to set up your next draw. That's almost good enough to look at running some Miracle cards with.

Modern level playable we've gotten Cast Out, Sphinx, Renewed Faith and Deliverance as cards with cycling, to go with Street Wraith and Edge of Autumn. Plus the lands, in Bant you're already at 32 cards with cycling in your deck, none of which you actually mind casting as a spell (well, except Wraith, and maybe Faith).

Control is coming back bigtime baby! (at least in standard and modern, where it's been absent for forever)

[mistercakes]

don't you just want to use this with all of the decrees?

decree of silence + decree of annihilation + decree of pain? this sounds awesome. also the alara ones like mentioned before seem pretty sweet.

[morgan_coke]

do you have to reveal the cycle card? Reveal isn't part of cycling...

Discarding is part of cycling, so, yeah, you're kind of gonna have to reveal it. Like when you cycle it and it goes in your graveyard.

[Noctalor]

Um, not so much? People have failed horrifyingly with that plan and Fluctuator for awhile now. It's not good.

So, Dissenter's Deliverance says Scrap can go eat a fat one. Now we just need a white one for Enchantments.

Man, I really love what this set is doing, printing usable cards with good cycling costs. Even if Drake's Roost is the only Slide/Rift type card in the set, there's already enough to build a deck around it.

Also, that Sphinx is a lot sicker than I realized at first glance. Scry 1 as a trigger on cycle - you can stack the triggers so it's baby Preordain on every cycle - which is amazing, or you can make it a baby Serum Visions to set up your next draw. That's almost good enough to look at running some Miracle cards with.

Modern level playable we've gotten Cast Out, Sphinx, Renewed Faith and Deliverance as cards with cycling, to go with Street Wraith and Edge of Autumn. Plus the lands, in Bant you're already at 32 cards with cycling in your deck, none of which you actually mind casting as a spell (well, except Wraith, and maybe Faith).

Control is coming back bigtime baby! (at least in standard and modern, where it's been absent for forever)

Nah, you are not going to discard the card you cycle, that's the point

[H]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/dissentersdeliverance.jpg

Someone mentioned a Naturalize with cycling. Close?

God damn it... :mad:

[morgan_coke]

Nah, you are not going to discard the card you cycle, that's the point

That's not how it works man. The rules exist in a book, not your head.

[Noctalor]

That's not how it works man. The rules exist in a book, not your head.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/arb/125.jpg

The cost is the part before the :
The effect is the part right after

[morgan_coke]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/arb/125.jpg

The cost is the part before the :
The effect is the part right after

You understand that this will be addressed in the Comp Rules update they do before the set comes out, right? What your'e talking about will NEVER actually be legal.

[Noctalor]

Who cares, looks like a broken mechanic currently

[PirateKing]

Who cares, looks like a broken mechanic currently

Yeah they could have just said "...pay :0: rather than pay cycling mana costs." and it wouldn't have required an inelegant botch to the comp rules.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Place your bets:
Power level errata on all existing cards with cycling
or
Power level errata on this card before it becomes legal
?

[l33twash0r]

https://twitter.com/elishffrn/status/850374900384579587

Twitter says it doesn't work right?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C80mCiOUwAQ757s?format=jpg&name=large

[Dice_Box]

God damn it... :mad:
I live to Sphere another day.

[rufus]

Who cares, looks like a broken mechanic currently

Apparently not...

702.1a If an effect refers to a “[keyword ability] cost,”it refers only to the variable costs for that keyword.


Unless they print something that doesn't discard to cycle. Then it goes boom! (Edit: That would be a funny un-card. Scavenge without exile, cycle without discard.)

[Lemnear]

https://i.gyazo.com/c7689cb96b90831acde4f6e497202800.jpg

I don't get it. If anyone would offer a few seconds to explain me the hype, I would be grateful. I suspect it had something to do with the discard-clause of Cycling?

[PirateKing]

I don't get it. If anyone would offer a few seconds to explain me the hype, I would be grateful. I suspect it had something to do with the discard-clause of Cycling?

A plain English reading of the card would make it appear that "X, Discard this card: Draw a card", the traditional cost/ability of cycle gets a cost replacement with :0:.

Not :0:, Discard this card; just straight ":0:: Draw a card".

[rufus]

I don't get it. If anyone would offer a few seconds to explain me the hype, I would be grateful. I suspect it had something to do with the discard-clause of Cycling?

Discarding is a part of the cycling cost. So (without 702.1a) this turns into 'if you have 7 cards in hand and a cycling card, you may draw your library'.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I struggled with understanding what the debate was about too, but think I get it now.
So let's assume that no rules changes are made to correct what seems like a flaw in the design of this card...

I still don't think it is Legacy playable.
Does it even break Modern? It's difficult to power it out early because almost all fast-mana is banned. Once you have your library in hand, you still need to win on the spot in a way that isn't easily disruptible and with limited mana resources.


Edit: As printed, without any rules changes, my initial reaction is that it is only bannable in EDH. And even then, I'm not certain because stuff like Necropotence exists.

[Gheizen64]

At 6 and with no rule change it's definitely OP as shit. It's like a better Bargain. Seriously. Yes it require you to play a decent number of cyclers, but it's not the worst thing in the world, especially considering that it draw you 3 on ETB.

[square_two]

Does it even break Modern? It's difficult to power it out early because almost all fast-mana is banned. Once you have your library in hand, you still need to win on the spot in a way that isn't easily disruptible and with limited mana resources.Necropotence exists.

Could it be better than Ad Naus in modern? One more mana and requires a cycler in hand (granted this stupid trick works, created by a single dev - Judges HATE it!), but you get to replace all of the "don't die because of Ad Nauseum" with useful cycling cards. And you have better mana due to not requiring double black for Ad Naus.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Sure, but (in Modern) what is the most compact win-condition? 4 Simian Spirit Guide and 2 Seismic Assault only take up 6 slots and let you use the lands you'd include anyway to do damage.

Assault is Abrupt Decay-able...
I guess if you can find a way to make :2::u:, Laboratory Maniac is only a single card that would give you the W. But it's even easier to remove than Assault.

[Richard Cheese]

702.1a
If an effect refers to a “[keyword ability] cost,” it refers only to the variable costs for that keyword.
Example: Varolz, the Scar-Striped has the following ability: “Each creature card in your graveyard has scavenge. The scavenge cost is equal to its mana cost.” A creature card’s scavenge cost is an amount of mana equal to its mana cost, and the activation cost of the scavenge ability is that amount of mana plus “Exile this card from your graveyard.”

702.28a
Cycling is an activated ability that functions only while the card with cycling is in a player’s hand. “Cycling [cost]” means “[Cost], Discard this card: Draw a card.”



Seems like this is already addressed to me.

[Barachai]

I'm pretty sure the natural reading of this (that you pay 0 and discard a card now) is likely to be worked into a ruling on this card. Otherwise I'm pretty sure it's beyond overpowered.

Edit: ah, the cheese has clarified. Good to know it works intuitively.

[rufus]

...
Does it even break Modern? It's difficult to power it out early because almost all fast-mana is banned. Once you have your library in hand, you still need to win on the spot in a way that isn't easily disruptible and with limited mana resources.
...

Since we're digressing, Resounding Thunder could do that.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Right! You mentioned that hours ago. That'd do it.

[Claymore]

To continue the shitposting:


702.28c Some cards with cycling have abilities that trigger when they’re cycled. “When you cycle [this card]” means “When you discard [this card] to pay a cycling cost.” These abilities trigger from whatever zone the card winds up in after it’s cycled.




702.28c seems to clearly suggest the discard is part of the cycling cost.

[rufus]

To continue the shitposting:

702.28c seems to clearly suggest the discard is part of the cycling cost.

WotC splitting hairs here. It's part of the cost to cycle, but not part of the 'cycling cost.' Don't worry, it's intuitive (tm).

[CptHaddock]

So is this card actually good in modern?

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/131/215/636271674370742217.jpeg

[maharis]

So is this card actually good in modern?

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/131/215/636271674370742217.jpeg

Lightning Greaves, come on down

[filln]

So is this card actually good in modern?

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/131/215/636271674370742217.jpeg

+ Concordant Crossroads? Combine with some mana dorks and you can get something big out pretty fast. Toss in some untap effects like Vitalize or Quest for Renewal and then some green creature tutors? Basically a green Sneak Attack.

EDIT: Could splash red for the other new red exert creature that gives two attack steps. Gain additional haste effects with Anger, binned through Faithless Looting. Sneak by exert limitation with Quirion Ranger, Elvish Scout or Maze of Ith.

[bruizar]

+ Concordant Crossroads? Combine with some mana dorks and you can get something big out pretty fast. Toss in some untap effects like Vitalize or Quest for Renewal and then some green creature tutors? Basically a green Sneak Attack.

EDIT: Could splash red for the other new red exert creature that gives two attack steps. Gain additional haste effects with Anger, binned through Faithless Looting. Sneak by exert limitation with Quirion Ranger, Elvish Scout or Maze of Ith.

looks like an elvish piper to me, but one you can use only half as much

[Di]

Why is anyone discussing this? It's not even as good as Elvish Piper, which sees no play, nor does Quicksilver Amulet or other things of that nature. Not viable in Modern or Legacy, probably not really viable in Standard either.

Moving on folks.

[bruizar]

Why is anyone discussing this? It's not even as good as Elvish Piper, which sees no play, nor does Quicksilver Amulet or other things of that nature. Not viable in Modern or Legacy, probably not really viable in Standard either.

Moving on folks.

Has been discussed but I still think Glorybringer is one of the better cards of the set. That's an exert card I really like.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/130/948/636263876355116805.png

[MaximumC]

looks like an elvish piper to me, but one you can use only half as much

The All Seeing Eye is correct and there's no reason to be excited for this guy in Eternal.

Standard, however, just got a new way to resolve Eldrazi.

[rufus]

Has been discussed but I still think Glorybringer is one of the better cards of the set. That's an exert card I really like.
...

Would have been a house a while ago, but they print stuff like Archangel Avacyn, Ishkanah, Reality Smasher, and the gearhulk cycle at 5 cc these days.

[Richard Cheese]

To continue the shitposting:




702.28c seems to clearly suggest the discard is part of the cycling cost.

It is, but it is the non-variable part of that cost. The question here is not over whether discarding is part of the cost to cycle something - it definitely is. The question is whether or not another card that affects "cycling cost" affects the discard clause as well, and I'm pretty sure 702.1a makes it real clear that it doesn't.

[ubernostrum]

702.28c seems to clearly suggest the discard is part of the cycling cost.

You want to look at this:


702.1a If an effect refers to a “[keyword ability] cost,” it refers only to the variable costs for that keyword.

Example: Varolz, the Scar-Striped has the following ability: “Each creature card in your graveyard has scavenge. The scavenge cost is equal to its mana cost.” A creature card’s scavenge cost is an amount of mana equal to its mana cost, and the activation cost of the scavenge ability is that amount of mana plus “Exile this card from your graveyard.”


So on a card with, say, "Cycling 2", the "cycling cost" is 2. That is the part you get out of paying; you still must pay the rest of the activation cost of the ability, which means you still must discard the card to cycle it.

[kombatkiwi]

You want to look at this:



So on a card with, say, "Cycling 2", the "cycling cost" is 2. That is the part you get out of paying; you still must pay the rest of the activation cost of the ability, which means you still must discard the card to cycle it.

This seems like the most conclusive statement to me. Nobody has tried to make an infinite with Varolz/Dryad arbor.

[Nonex]

I think if they wanted to make an enchantment that allows you to draw your whole library, they would have come up with a way simpler wording, like that of Enter the Infinite.

Also, if anyone wants details about this one:

https://i.gyazo.com/5b8afc62bb17d0f0ae4c893708b26777.jpg

"If ~ was cast from your hand and you already cast another spell* named ~ this game, you win the game. Otherwise, put ~ into its owner's library seventh from the top and you gain 7 life."

While the current copy must be cast from your hand and must resolve, it doesn't matter where the previous copy was cast from, whether it was countered or not, or even if you're its owner. It also keeps track of the whole game.

*Edit: spell, not card. So a copy of it also works.

[Barook]

Wouldn't that card be a decent alt-wincon for Enchantress? It is cheaper than Emrakul and the mana cost can be split over two turns, if necessary.

The only problem I see is that the first copy can be countered, unlike Emrakul. But you don't have to deal with stuff like creature removal.

I guess it could be a wincon for Omniscience as well.

[Finn]

If the combo on New Perspective does not work, poo on wotc for printing what is obviously poorly worded text on a card. When deciding how to shorten rules text to fit on the card, "does it appear to do something entirely, radically, and gamechanglingly different?" should be pretty close to the top of the checklist for shit to avoid.

[Lord Seth]

If the combo on New Perspective does not work, poo on wotc for printing what is obviously poorly worded text on a card. When deciding how to shorten rules text to fit on the card, "does it appear to do something entirely, radically, and gamechanglingly different?" should be pretty close to the top of the checklist for shit to avoid.Specifying it as "cycling mana costs" would make it more clear, though it would have a small effect on what it does: It makes it so that cards that have a cycling effect that isn't mana couldn't be used with it. Then again, how many cycling cards does that apply to? I know there's Street Wraith, but is there anything else?

[mistercakes]

Specifying it as "cycling mana costs" would make it more clear, though it would have a small effect on what it does: It makes it so that cards that have a cycling effect that isn't mana couldn't be used with it. Then again, how many cycling cards does that apply to? I know there's Street Wraith, but is there anything else?


just that green cycling rampant growth from future sight. (sac a land)

[Darkenslight]

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_FlqyaQnno7.png

Seems hilarious.

[MaximumC]

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_FlqyaQnno7.png

Seems hilarious.

A man can dream.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=1877&type=card

[Darkenslight]

New card from The Mana Source YT:

http://i.imgur.com/pDkOnGg.png

[b]Visier of the Menagerie :3: :g:
Creature - Naga Cleric (MR)
You may look at the top card of your library.
You may cast the top card if it's a creature.
Mana may be spent as though it were any color on creature spells you cast.
3/4

[Barook]

GSZ-able, bolt-proof, AD-immune. I like it.

Question is what deck would run it? I don't think it fits into Elves. And it's pretty pricey for Nic Fit/Maverick, although I imagine it plays nicely with SDT/Sylvan Library.

It's also interesting that you don't have to play with your top card revealed.