Amonkhet, a new Plane for the next Block

[mistercakes]

would love to play around with this in a dumb kobold deck, it almost acts as glimpse 5-8 (albeit a high mana cost to start)

[Barook]

would love to play around with this in a dumb kobold deck, it almost acts as glimpse 5-8 (albeit a high mana cost to start)
I thought about Kobolds, too, but isn't that a bit much mana until you hit Cradle?

That said, are there any ways to abuse knowing what's on top of your library?

Edit: I guess KotR + lots of fetches + Library is going to be nice for grindy games.

[Lemnear]

All i see is a Magus of the Future with current creature Power creep rules applied in terms of cost, effect and P/T.

At 4 mana however, I am not even sure it qualifies to adress the weaknesses of most creature decks in the format, which I would boil down to "rebuilding after terminus" and "being fast enough to threaten combo"

[Hopo]

All i see is a Magus of the Future with current creature Power creep rules applied in terms of cost, effect and P/T.

At 4 mana however, I am not even sure it qualifies to adress the weaknesses of most creature decks in the format, which I would boil down to "rebuilding after terminus" and "being fast enough to threaten combo"

At least it dodges Decay, which would be the next rant topic.

[Echelon]

GSZ-able, bolt-proof, AD-immune. I like it.

Question is what deck would run it? I don't think it fits into Elves. And it's pretty pricey for Nic Fit/Maverick, although I imagine it plays nicely with SDT/Sylvan Library.

It's also interesting that you don't have to play with your top card revealed.

It's a Nic Fit card, for sure. Between SDT/Libary/Courser of Kruphix/Tireless Tracker and buttloads of shuffle effects there's quite some potential.

@Lemnear: It does nothing to shore up any of Nic Fits weaknesses whatsoever, but it does improve the flow of the deck in general, allowing Nic Fit to take over the lategame more easily if it goes unanswered.

[bruizar]

It's a Nic Fit card, for sure. Between SDT/Libary/Courser of Kruphix/Tireless Tracker and buttloads of shuffle effects there's quite some potential.

@Lemnear: It does nothing to shore up any of Nic Fits weaknesses whatsoever, but it does improve the flow of the deck in general, allowing Nic Fit to take over the lategame more easily if it goes unanswered.

I would sooner see it in some green MUD that can abuse Metalworker to grind through the top of the deck, keeping actual artifats in hand as to preserve the potence of metalworker. This card sadly enough does not cut it :(

Courser of Kruphixis more widespread because it triggers on lands, gains life and its 1 cc cheaper, yet only sees play in sylvan plug and the occasional nicfit list. Menagerie has the potential to go broken since lands have a 1 per turn limit and creatures do not, but it should have been cheaper to make it relevant imo. I would sooner see oracle of mul daya get played than this... Even azusa, lost but seeking is 3 cc.. With between 20 and 26 lands in decks, the odds of you triggering one of these cards for lands is higher than for creatures...

Draft allstar, perhaps someone in standard wil play it, but otherwise straight to the crap binder.

[Echelon]

Could be funny in Elves! when combined w/ SDT. GSZ/fetch to reset the top card and restart the chain.

The problem is that 4 mana is NO mana though.

[Dice_Box]

I see that and I don't think Legacy, I think Gitrog EDH

[Echelon]

I see that and I don't think Legacy, I think Gitrog EDH

Nic Fit is pretty much Legacy EDH, so that sounds about right.

[Darkenslight]

I see that and I don't think Legacy, I think Gitrog EDH

I'd actually consider it in a 5C theme-deck I'm building around Divinity and Gods. WE also have the wording on Oketra:

Oketra the True :3: :w:
Legendary Creature - God
Double strike, indestructible
~ can't attack or block unless you control three or more other creatures.(?)
:3: :w: : Create a 1/1 white Warrior creature token with vigilance.
3/6

[bruizar]

I'd actually consider it in a 5C theme-deck I'm building around Divinity and Gods. WE also have the wording on Oketra:

Oketra the True :3: :w:
Legendary Creature - God
Double strike, indestructible
~ can't attack or block unless you control three or more other creatures.(?)
:3: :w: : Create a 1/1 white Warrior creature token with vigilance.
3/6

I could see this happening with sram's expertise in standard. However, three creature is quiet prohibitive. If it wasn't then Kytheon, Hero of Akros / Gideon, Battle-Forged would be a card.

[Megadeus]

Green guy seems like a trap. Like has been said, it doesn't answer creatures real issue with the format and that's terminus. And you need a decent amount of filtering in nic fit because nic fit creature count is fairly low. Dunno. Everyone else seems far more excited than me about him so maybe I'm missing something

[Barook]

Green guy seems like a trap. Like has been said, it doesn't answer creatures real issue with the format and that's terminus. And you need a decent amount of filtering in nic fit because nic fit creature count is fairly low. Dunno. Everyone else seems far more excited than me about him so maybe I'm missing something
At worst, it's going to be an EDH staple like Oracle of Mul Daya that goes into every green EDH.

[bruizar]

Green guy seems like a trap. Like has been said, it doesn't answer creatures real issue with the format and that's terminus. And you need a decent amount of filtering in nic fit because nic fit creature count is fairly low. Dunno. Everyone else seems far more excited than me about him so maybe I'm missing something

Agreed. Nic fit is a GSZ deck. GSZ fundamentally means silver bullets and a lack of redundant creatures. You trade in redundancy for selection with GSZ. The only real redundant creatures in nic fit is veteran explorer, and ONLY because the deck plays Cabal Therapies (4 more spells). Add in deeds, abrupt decays, a recurring nightmare / unearth, and some personalization options lilke Gitaxian Probe, more removal, diabolic intent, Nissa Vital Force, burning wish, Intuition, Brainstorm, Vraska, Scapeshift or an academy rector package, and soon you'll have a deck that's more focused on spells and lands than creatures.

[Gheizen64]

That green card seems pretty trash tbh.

If you want an actual good card advantage green creature play tracker. Fast clock + can't be answered without card disadvantage :cool:

[Megadeus]

That green card seems pretty trash tbh.

If you want an actual good card advantage green creature play tracker. Fast clock + can't be answered without card disadvantage :cool:

This. I mean I think the green guy is a powerful effect, but I just don't see where it fits (heh). Same reason I don't think New Gideon will see much play. I understand the power level, but I don't see what deck wants it and what you're cutting for it

[morgan_coke]

We got our cycling counterspell and it's... not good. Basically Force Spike for 1U with cycling U.

Was Miscalculation really so busted that they had to do this to it?

EDIT: it's ok in an "I run Akroma's Blessing and every once in awhile cast it for value" sort of way, but that's like, it.

[rufus]

Green guy seems like a trap. Like has been said, it doesn't answer creatures real issue with the format and that's terminus. And you need a decent amount of filtering in nic fit because nic fit creature count is fairly low. Dunno. Everyone else seems far more excited than me about him so maybe I'm missing something

The CC makes him impractical for legacy unless he's a game-ending threat.

As with other cards of the type, there's dopey stuff if you combine him with something like Thought Lash that lets you grind the top of the library.

[Barook]

Rules question: Since it says mana of any type, can lands be used to cast Myr Superion with it? :eyebrow:

[Dice_Box]

No, because in that situation the source, not the type is checked.

[rufus]

Rules question: Since it says mana of any type, can lands be used to cast Myr Superion with it? :eyebrow:

They have a section somewhere in the rules about that. Mana type is color or "colorless." This is a sort of rules patch n that was put into place to accommodate colorless (rather than generic) mana costs. (There are still colorless costs in standard, but if this templating continues to be used the future, it might be an indication that colorless mana is going to be evergreen.)

(Part of me wonders about building a deck designed to make as many different kinds of mana as possible at once using Kruphix, God of Horizons or Omnath, Locus of Mana.)

[morgan_coke]

We got a Roar of the Wurm Embalm reprint with a slight buff to it, the main card is only 5G instead of 6G, same stats and flashback, but with Trample, and a Hero's Downfall Sorcery with a terrible flashback I mean Aftermath effect.

[Barook]

We got a Roar of the Wurm Embalm reprint with a slight buff to it, the main card is only 5G instead of 6G, same stats and flashback, but with Trample, and a Hero's Downfall Sorcery with a terrible flashback I mean Aftermath effect.
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/honoredhydra.jpg

Roar of the Wurm wasn't playable since forever. This changes nothing.

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/neverreturn.jpg

Holy shit, why is the Aftermath portion so overcosted? This should be at least 1-2 mana cheaper.

[rufus]

...

Holy shit, why is the Aftermath portion so overcosted? This should be at least 1-2 mana cheaper.

3 cc sorcery speed kill a creature or plainswalker is already premium removal in the NOW, so as far as WotC is concerned that aftermath portion is pure value.

[Darkenslight]

http://i.imgur.com/eHvYo7m.png

Seems legit.

[morgan_coke]

After thinking about it, I think the Aftermath portion is so overcosted because the main spell isn't, and they didn't want to make it too good.

[rufus]

pull from tomorrow

Seems legit.

Worth considering for sorcery speed high tide and possibly other decks that produce a lot of mana. Not sure whether the cost offsets the utility compared to Stroke of Genius or Blue Sun's Zenith.

[Ronald Deuce]

Worth considering for sorcery speed high tide and possibly other decks that produce a lot of mana. Not sure whether the cost offsets the utility compared to Stroke of Genius or Blue Sun's Zenith.

Also doesn't target opponents, unfortunately.

[MaximumC]

http://i.imgur.com/eHvYo7m.png

Seems legit.

Seems QUITE legit. Ignoring Prosperity-type effects, we only have a few cards that do this:

Mind Spring - Same cost, but Sorcery speed.
Braingeyser - Same cost, but Sorcery speed and can hit opponents as a finisher.
Blue Sun's Zenith - Reshuffles and targets opponents (this is my go-to finisher of choice in heavy blue infinite mana decks)
Stroke of Genius - Less blue and more colored mana, Instant speed, can hit opponents as a finisher.
Sphinx' Rev - Costs more, but buffers your life total as well.

I think Stroke still has a place due to the fact that you can fuel it with artifact mana more easily, and it's a High Tide finisher. But the rest? Drawing X and then chucking something seems much better than just drawing X, when we're talking significantly large values for X. The graveyard is halfway onto the battlefield, after all.

[rufus]

Also doesn't target opponents, unfortunately.

Sure, but this could be better than stroke/BSZ #2.

[Lemnear]

Sure, but this could be better than stroke/BSZ #2.

A) Discards Worldgorger Dragon while drawing into Animate Dead.
B) During gorger combo, you draw your deck and discard your killcon to be the new Animate Dead target

Seems legit. Its Bazaar + Stoke in one card for the Worldgorger Combo

[kombatkiwi]

Every time they print a borderline Blue instant I'm tempted to get the Resets out but I don't think this adds anything over USZ for any deck that would ever consider playing this. The only time XUU Draw X is good in legacy is if the X is arbitrarily large in which case the ability to target the opponent is too important. Casting it as Inspiration in a setup turn isn't even that good because you can't even have Inspiration/Jace's Ingenuity, the discard effect makes it a 4-mana catalog.

Edit: I suppose in niche situations where you actually want the discard it could be useful (as above).

[bruizar]

If you're looking for a blue draw x spell, then Pull From Tomorrow is the best option at instant speed. The drawback is offset by costing 1 less, so you're getting +1 card for the same mana cost as stroke of genius but you have to discard the worst one. So, this one digs deeper for the same cost, ignoring the fact that it requires UU instead of U like stroke of genius, and ignoring the fact that you can put flashback-type cards in the graveyard or that you're getting as much cards while keeping mana open for daze.

Cycling Counterspell is interesting. The ability to catch someone off-guard with limited opportunity cost makes it quiet interesting to me, even though the counter portion costs 2 instead of just 1.

[Davran]

Cycling Counterspell is interesting. The ability to catch someone off-guard with limited opportunity cost makes it quiet interesting to me, even though the counter portion costs 2 instead of just 1.

If you're not already running Miscalculation I don't see what this thing does for you other than cycle for one cheaper.

[bruizar]

If you're not already running Miscalculation I don't see what this thing does for you other than cycle for one cheaper.

Agreed. Nothing to see I'm afraid :-)

[morgan_coke]

If you're not already running Miscalculation I don't see what this thing does for you other than cycle for one cheaper.

The difference between 2 and U is pretty huge when it comes to cycling. It's just a question of do you need to able to counter stuff, or is it just something that'd be nice once in awhile. It's basically a cheaper Akroma's Blessing - which saw quite a bit of play - in Standard. However, with Cast Out and the Sphinx also going for one mana, I don't think this makes it.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/nehebtheworthy.jpg

Kinda cool card, but I seriously doubt he fits into any Legacy deck.

[filln]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/nehebtheworthy.jpg

Kinda cool card, but I seriously doubt he fits into any Legacy deck.

Load up on your Didgeridoo now! Minotaur-tribal gonna be a thing with 8 Aether Vial effects jammed into a deck.

[rufus]

Load up on your [[Didgeridoo]] now! Minotaur-tribal gonna be a thing with 8 Aether Vial effects jammed into a deck.

It's a bit of a pity those two don't really play well together. You need to combo Digeridoo with something that cheats cc like Sneak Attack to make a synergistic deck.

[MaximumC]

It's a bit of a pity those two don't really play well together. You need to combo Digeridoo with something that cheats cc like Sneak Attack to make a synergistic deck.

Yeah, which has been Minotaur's perennial problem. Most of them cost 3-4, almost all of them are french vanilla beaters, and those that are not are only so-so. The best Minotaur to cheat out is probably Boros Battleshaper, in terms of raw mana saved for a card that isn't trash (Etherium Horn doesn't count b'c you don't cascade if you cheat him!) and even that one is a worse card than everything any other tribe can cheat out.

That said, I dunno about saying Minotaur cheaty effects don't play well together. They seem fine for what they are. I have a casual Minotaur deck that goes something like this:

Didgeridoo
Ragemonger

Gnarled Scarhide
Deathbellow Raider
Lord of Shatterskull Pass
Kragma Warcaller

And then some Rakdos disruptive elements, like Lightning Bolt and Blightning. I guess the best thing it has going for it is that turn 1 Doo really does invalidate control decks that want to rely on countermagic. It's fine for just casual playing, but the best creatures that this tribe can offer really don't do much compared to the absurd things you get out of Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, or Slivers.

I don't know that Neheb really does to help this tribe out. Maybe if he made ALL minotaurs into Hypnotic Specters (like Cabal Slaver) that might be something. As is, he's another 3-drop that is fine and great and all but is useless to cheat out because it's already cheap and doesn't really dominate the board.

Minotaur's wont be a real tribe until:
1. We get a really expensive, game-ending creature with a Minotaur type that can be Doo'd out;
2. We get disruptive Minotaurs (think about how Eldrazi exploded when we got Thought-Knot Seer and Displacer); or
3. The tribe gets some absurd aggro options on the low end (like Merfolk's multiple lords, for example).


Load up on your Didgeridoo now! Minotaur-tribal gonna be a thing with 8 Aether Vial effects jammed into a deck.

I wouldn't be surprised to a see a spike, but it's hardly Vial. If Vial had a 3 mana activation cost, it would only see play at the bottom of the garbage can outside of Darksteel Sealed.

[rufus]

Yeah, which has been Minotaur's perennial problem. Most of them cost 3-4, almost all of them are french vanilla beaters, and those that are not are only so-so. The best Minotaur to cheat out is probably Boros Battleshaper, in terms of raw mana saved for a card that isn't trash (Etherium Horn doesn't count b'c you don't cascade if you cheat him!) and even that one is a worse card than everything any other tribe can cheat out. ...

There are also the changelings, but they're not really better.

[MaximumC]

There are also the changelings, but they're not really better.

Yeah, same problem. The best Changelings that cost more than 3 (so you're saving $mana$ when you Doo' em) is probably Colossus, which only costs 4 anyway, and Titan, who costs 5 and requires you to Champion something. Neither of em are in the right colors, to boot.

I don't think we'll be "Doing the Doo" anytime soon, sadly.

[bruizar]

Reduce // Rubble looks cool, especially the rubble part. Probably not good enough for legacy but its a virtual time walk from the graveyard at best. Perhaps something to consider for sneak and show

[TsumiBand]

It's comforting to know that Chameleon Colossus is still the #1 Minotaur

[rufus]

Reduce // Rubble looks cool, especially the rubble part. Probably not good enough for legacy but its a virtual time walk from the graveyard at best. Perhaps something to consider for sneak and show

Would be much more interesting as an instant. Like people don't have enough incentive to 'end step' stuff.

[MaximumC]

Would be much more interesting as an instant. Like people don't have enough incentive to 'end step' stuff.

Dude. No. Card is jank. It's what a garbage can smells like after your cat pees in it. It's two turds stapled together. Those turds are named "Early Frost" and "Convolute." How often have THOSE particular shorts nuggets made anyone excited?

[Claymore]

Also a virtual timewalk on yourself since you're spending 3 mana to do absolutely nothing, and you kept 3 mana open to play a counterspell. So really nothing happens the whole turn cycle.

Because of that, I can see it in Miracles. Seems right up their alley.

[TsumiBand]

Dude. No. Card is jank. It's what a garbage can smells like after your cat pees in it. It's two turds stapled together. Those turds are named "Early Frost" and "Convolute." How often have THOSE particular shorts nuggets made anyone excited?

Yeah, stapling cards together has never yielded anything (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=87908) playable.

Without being a total troll for a minute though, at least on these new split cards you can attempt tempo plays by being handed two-card combos on one card. Playing both halves early is pretty Time Walkish, especially if they're land-light. Playing it later when they have 6-7 lands in play is more or less on par with getting 3x Rishadan Ported, which pretty much always sucks. It's not god tier, I'm not saying that, but I mean it's harder to just evaluate two effects on a single card when they have a certain kind of synergy.

[MaximumC]

Yeah, stapling cards together has never yielded anything (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=87908) playable.


Heh, your tongue couldn't possibly be more up in your cheek, could it? Convolute is not exactly Lightning Bolt. Many things are playable if you staple a Lightning Bolt to them.



Without being a total troll for a minute though, at least on these new split cards you can attempt tempo plays by being handed two-card combos on one card. Playing both halves early is pretty Time Walkish, especially if they're land-light. Playing it later when they have 6-7 lands in play is more or less on par with getting 3x Rishadan Ported, which pretty much always sucks. It's not god tier, I'm not saying that, but I mean it's harder to just evaluate two effects on a single card when they have a certain kind of synergy.

Yeah, split cards are nice that way, but these have a limitation previous kinds did not. Older split cards gave you options. These do one thing, then the other, pretty much always in that order, if you're playing them normally. I like how WotC worked really hard to make that order the one you want to use them in anyway.

It's more like these give you one effect now, and a delayed effect later. If both effects are just plain BAD, like is the case with Robble // Robble here, then its a bad card.

[Scott]

Whateva hatas, maybe I'll just make a Minotaur stompy deck with Didgeridoo and Cavern of Souls to get around my Nether Voids, whateva, whateva, I do what I want with my Greek bullmen. Including really bad, really expensive decks.

[Jander78]

Whateva hatas, maybe I'll just make a Minotaur stompy deck with Didgeridoo and Cavern of Souls to get around my Nether Voids, whateva, whateva, I do what I want with my Greek bullmen. Including really bad, really expensive decks.
Let's not start this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3682-Former-DTB-Thunder-Bluff-Legacy-s-Premier-Combo&highlight=thunder+bluff) again.

[Scott]

Let's not start this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3682-Former-DTB-Thunder-Bluff-Legacy-s-Premier-Combo&highlight=thunder+bluff) again.

Apparently people named Scott like Didgeridoos.

I'm surprised that that list won a Grand Prix, but it makes sense given that it's 83% vs. Threshold.

[Aggro_zombies]

Let's not start this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3682-Former-DTB-Thunder-Bluff-Legacy-s-Premier-Combo&highlight=thunder+bluff) again.
Man, remember when this site could have fun?

The Aftermath cards seem really lackluster so far. I get that some of the price tag on the rare ones is balanced around not being a total blowout in Limited, but none of them look particularly exciting for Constructed except in a "starved for options" kind of way. Most of them seem inflated by one or two mana on both ends, especially relative to the Fuse cards, which these sort of ape in terms of effect synergy. I wonder why they were so gun-shy about the cards.

[morgan_coke]

Man, remember when this site could have fun?

The Aftermath cards seem really lackluster so far. I get that some of the price tag on the rare ones is balanced around not being a total blowout in Limited, but none of them look particularly exciting for Constructed except in a "starved for options" kind of way. Most of them seem inflated by one or two mana on both ends, especially relative to the Fuse cards, which these sort of ape in terms of effect synergy. I wonder why they were so gun-shy about the cards.

As Foretold is in this set, and they know it's fucking stupid and broken. Pro-Tip, the last time they changed the rules or pre-emptively banned something even before release was Mind's Desire, which was absolutely broken in the formats it was banned in. The dressed up the rule change in Split cards as something else, but straight up, it was because As Foretold is another card that slipped through their super-rigorous FFL testing, much like the CopyCat combo.

[Darkenslight]

New cards:

i.imgur.com/VStzQ0O.png

Seems like a decent Commander card, especially with the first part being an instant.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9GLQF1UMAAIlSB.jpg

Not sure about this, but it has potential in Standard, Modern and Commander.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9GLqwxUQAEyjn2.jpg

Yeah, this might be legit. Build it up to a Gilded Lotus. More mana-intensive, but it comes down much earlier.

[Lemnear]

7 mana total to get a Gilded Lotus. Can't see a reason to play this unless you need colorfixing in the early turns

[Gheizen64]

http://lrcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Shefet_Monitor_EN.png

Obsoleted Krosan Tusker!

[sco0ter]

7 mana total to get a Gilded Lotus. Can't see a reason to play this unless you need colorfixing in the early turns

Actually only 4 mana, because you get a mana back from the activation.

[Gheizen64]

Actually only 4 mana, because you get a mana back from the activation.

Yeah it's not that bad, except for the fact that it cost :1:

Make it unplayable in artifact lists.

2 cost and 1 activation would've made this playable in legacy but prob too good in other formats (essentially a 2 mana suspend 3 gilded lotus)

[Gheizen64]

Desert lands incoming.

Colorless karoos incoming? A man can dream.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/vizieroftumblingsands.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/stirthesands.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/deemworthy.jpg

This seems to be a cycle. No white one yet.

The blue one seems to be the only good one so far. Cantripping permanent untapping could allow some interesting tricks.

[Darkenslight]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/vizieroftumblingsands.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/stirthesands.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/deemworthy.jpg

This seems to be a cycle. No white one yet.

The blue one seems to be the only good one so far. Cantripping permanent untapping could allow some interesting tricks.

White one is Renewed Faith, that legendary Bastion of Onslaught.

[Noctalor]

https://i.gyazo.com/51d48f0ff0a2e9630ae8515261627734.jpg

Finally a strong card

[Dice_Box]

Sweet tumbling Sands can fit in Edric, untapping my Cradle.

[rufus]

...

The blue one seems to be the only good one so far. Cantripping permanent untapping could allow some interesting tricks.

That's two cards with potential. High tide decks are going to get another look after this set comes out.

[Claymore]

One reason Aftermath cards could be down in power/overcosted is that each is 2 cards in one. You have to tack on some mana for the effective +1 card that you get.

[Megadeus]

Sure. And that makes most of them completely unplayable unfortunately

[morgan_coke]

That Vizier is SO close... if only he could tap stuff.. ah well.

Lot of good cyclers so far. I think Archfiend is still objectively the strongest, given that he has built in instant speed wrath or at least permanent debuff effects off of stuff like TfK and JVP in addition to cycling shenanigans, he cycles himself, and his body has evasion and is bigger than a Sengir Vampire for the same cost.

Still waiting to see if we get any cycling style enchantments besides Drake's Roost.

Legacy-playable (EDIT: cycling cards) I'd say we're at:

Archfiend of Ifnir
Renewed Faith
Vizier of Tumbling Sands
Dissenter's Deliverance
Cast Out
Curator of Mysteries

Most of those are "niche playable" but still, that's not bad. DD can go in pretty much anything if you think you might see artifact-heavy decks but also think you'll see artifact-light decks and don't want to burn all of your sideboard slots on them. Cast Out is a good way to get rid of, well, anything, and will usually dodge CB, and the cycling cost of W makes it pretty easy to trade out if you don't need it.

[rufus]

...
Most of those are "niche playable" but still, that's not bad.
...

Pull from Tomorrow is definitely niche playable.

[square_two]

Legacy-playable I'd say we're at:

There are maybe half a dozen of us excited about Cruel Reality for a certain version of Nic Fit. It actually fills a hole for the deck and might streamline it quite a bit. Started as "Nyx Fit" running Academy Rectors to power out Starfield of Nyx plus a handful of other targets. Cruel Reality is basically a tutor target that 1) controls the board, 2) handles Jace, and 3) is a win condition. Great main-deck card to handle a swath of decks. Meaning we can trim our enchantment tutor package - it allows us to start running more Decay/Sword/Brutalities which increases our early interaction.

[Claymore]

The blue serpent might replace Gurmag.

5UU 6/5, costs 1 less for each instant/sorcery in yard.

Blue for Force, doesn't interfere with Snapcaster. Not getting benefit out of creatures and fetches might hurt too much though. That late in the game I don't see a problem with UU vs B.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://ewedit.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/cryptic-serpent-card.jpg?w=669

Better than Angler - Y/N - why or why not? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112718

[H]

Better than Angler - Y/N - why or why not? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112718

N. Fetchlands.

Might still be playable though.

[rufus]

The blue serpent might replace Gurmag.
...

6x instant/sorcery in the graveyard is a lot. It's a much more stringent deck building requirement than angler has.

[square_two]

N. Fetchlands.

Might still be playable though.

High Tide getting some love is really ironic considering this is a DESERT set. Maybe Hour of Devastation foretells an incoming tidal wave?

[H]

High Tide getting some love is really ironic considering this is a DESERT set. Maybe Hour of Devastation foretells an incoming tidal wave?

I think every other set or so we get some cards that seem good in High Tide and then everyone realizes High Tide still isn't good. :frown:

[Darkenslight]

6x instant/sorcery in the graveyard is a lot. It's a much more stringent deck building requirement than angler has.

That's fair, but IMO, this will see some play. Maybe a hard UR Delver, rather than Grixis, but I think it's worth it.

There's also this:

http://i.imgur.com/jbVju7h.jpg

Seems like it's not for LEgacy, but I could see it in Standard and Modern in aggressive Black decks.

[filln]

Better than Angler - Y/N - why or why not? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112718

One more piece to the Vial Smasher the Fierce brew alongside Force of Will, Gurmag Angler, Fireblast, and Bedlam Reveler.

EDIT: Can't forget Sin Prodder too.

[filln]

Last planeswalker of Amonkhet revealed...

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_w08Rh46uHS.png

Nissa, Steward of Elements XGU
Planeswalker- Nissa (M)
+2: Scry 2
0: Look at the top card of your library. If it's a land card or a creature card with converted mana cost less than or equal to the number of loyalty counters on Nissa, you may put that card onto the battlefield.
-6: Untap up to two target lands you control. They become 5/5 Elemental creatures with flying and haste until end of turn. They're still lands
[X]

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Really hard to evaluate how good she is but that's definitely an awesome design.

[BenBleiweiss]

6x instant/sorcery in the graveyard is a lot. It's a much more stringent deck building requirement than angler has.

For what it's worth - it's 5x Instant/Sorcery. It also plays better with Goyf and Snapcaster than Angler, if those interactions end up mattering.

[Darkenslight]

Really hard to evaluate how good she is but that's definitely an awesome design.

Zombardment got some real goodies, as did the newer Dredge lists, thanks to two of the new Zombies:

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_Cus62c1PIT.png

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_pskzGDdBWi.png

[square_two]

Nissa, Steward of Elements XGU

She scales really well, scry 2 is deece. Gets around countermagic by putting dudes directly into play, works especially well with Top. Whacking for 10 in the air is also deece. BUG Fit will be happy.

She's always decayable even if played late :cry:

[Megadeus]

I though BUG Fit immediately, but being decayed is pretty bad. I think Vital Force still better.

[H]

For what it's worth - it's 5x Instant/Sorcery. It also plays better with Goyf and Snapcaster than Angler, if those interactions end up mattering.

True, but Pyroblast/REB is an issue. At least True-Name dodges those (and everything else) once he resolves. Why compare the two? Because the mana cost will probably end up similar when you are actually going to cast either (or True-Name might really cost less on the balance).

[Lemnear]

She scales really well, scry 2 is deece. Gets around countermagic by putting dudes directly into play, works especially well with Top. Whacking for 10 in the air is also deece. BUG Fit will be happy.

She's always decayable even if played late :cry:

If she is played late, then she is pumped to ultimate directly. Who cares for decay at Nissa if 10 flying, hasty Elementals charge?

[H]

If she is played late, then she is pumped to ultimate directly. Who cares for decay at Nissa if 10 flying, hasty Elementals charge?

10 power? It's only two lands that get animated.

Card is unplayable except in EDH, most probably. But there it's pretty good.

[PirateKing]

If she is played late, then she is pumped to ultimate directly. Who cares for decay at Nissa if 10 flying, hasty Elementals charge?

8 mana for 10 damage delivered through combat? I don't know, just seems kind of underwhelming. Seems like with that mana at Sorcery speed, you could do better in Legacy, right?

[H]

8 mana for 10 damage delivered through combat? I don't know, just seems kind of underwhelming. Seems like with that mana at Sorcery speed, you could do better in Legacy, right?

Mmmm, spend 8 mana to put 2 lands on the bottom of your library and a Planeswalker in you graveyard, because your opponent isn't a scrub is is playing Miracles?

Sign me up. :cry:

[Megadeus]

The whole scalability is really nice. Drop it on turn 2 off of a mana dork and start +2ing it. Or you can top deck it late and win. I like the card. But I don't think it's better than anything we have already.

[Barook]

Nissa plays really well into T2 Library, T3 Nissa.

The ability to play her for 3 mana also opens up the ability for this opening:
T1: Land, Dork
T2: Land, Nissa, Scry 2 (putting her at 3)
T3: Draw, put into play whatever you set up

[morgan_coke]

Sunscorched Desert
Land - Desert

When ~ ETB, deal 1 damage to target player.

T: Add C

Seems cool. Also got the green god which seems surprisingly playable, even in Legacy

2G
5/5
Indestructible, Deathtouch
Can't attack or block unless you control another creature with power 4 or greater.
2G: another creature gets +2/+0 and trample until EOT.

So he works if there's a goyf or an angler or a tasigur or something, and even if all you've got out is say, a bob, he can get there for 3 mana. Seems solid, if not ideal.

[H]

The ability to play her for 3 mana also opens up the ability for this opening:
T1: Land, Dork
T2: Land, Nissa, Scry 2 (putting her at 3)
T3: Draw, put into play whatever you set up

I like that...for Modern. In Legacy, a vulnerability to Blasts and Decay is probably too much for a 'Walker.

[Claymore]

Seems okay for UWg Superfriends Miracles. Might impact the board too much for their favor tho.

[morgan_coke]

After thinking about it some more, I'm not sure that Nissa is going to be very good in any format.

To get her "busted" phase, you need to use the 0 ability a lot, but it only works on lands and creatures, and you need to be able to manipulate the top of your library - which means either Sylvan Library or Top (BS can do it as a one time effect), it also means you need to be running a fair number of creatures and lands in Legacy.

In Modern and Standard there aren't any "top of the library" manipulators, so you're a lot worse off there. Best case scenario you get a land or critter every other turn after setting up with her +2, but that assumes you don't shuffle or draw after using it, and that her +2 is able to put a good creature or land 2 down, which most of the time? It won't be able to.

Probably her best bet in Std/Mdrn is to work as a pseudo-Sylvan for 3 mana that occasionally whacks people with elemental lands.

[rufus]

...
To get her "busted" phase, you need to use the 0 ability a lot, but it only works on lands and creatures, and you need to be able to manipulate the top of your library - which means either Sylvan Library or Top (BS can do it as a one time effect), it also means you need to be running a fair number of creatures and lands in Legacy.
...


Honestly, she's not terrible if she just starts filtering the lands out of your draws and onto the field. Scry 2, then draw business and put a land into play from the top of your deck the next turn.



...In Modern and Standard there aren't any "top of the library" manipulators, so you're a lot worse off there. ...

Just peeking makes her abilities a lot stronger. I imagine having her and Courser of Kruphix in play at the same time could snowball quickly. (She might even share a deck with Vizier of the Menagerie in standard.)

[Barook]

People shouldn't forget that her 0 ability does not only makes stuff uncounterable and generates card advantage, it also ramps, either in form of additional lands or creatures played for free.

Setting her up shouldn't be that problematic with on-color options like Library, Top and fucking Brainstorm, not to mention she can scry up stuff herself. At worst, she's FoW fodder.

Her being vulnerable to removal is a valid argument, but that doesn't make her unplayable imho.

The only thing I don't like about her is her underwhelming ult.

[Commander Eesha]

So... Worldgorger Dragon combo gets a new toy :confused:

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/sunscorcheddesert.jpg

Well, at least looks like an upgrated version of the lands that this deck already use as a win con.

[MaximumC]

So... Worldgorger Dragon combo gets a new toy :confused:

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/sunscorcheddesert.jpg

Well, at least looks like an upgrated version of the lands that this deck already use as a win con.

Meh. I prefer Lighthouse or Nephilia drownyard, since they do something to help fin the combo

[BenBleiweiss]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present: Winner!

Note: Not reciprocal!

https://i.redd.it/gpzsck56c0ry.png

[Scott]

What!

[morgan_coke]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present: Winner!

Note: Not reciprocal!

https://i.redd.it/gpzsck56c0ry.png

Wowzers.

[morgan_coke]

SDT, Fetches, Wastes, Ports, Vials, KotR, equipment, SFM, manlands, what else am I missing that's super common?

EDIT: can you do a RG deck with this and Burning-Tree Shaman?

[Megadeus]

Christ this card might be very good. I really hate their one sided design though. Wish it was two sided.

[maharis]

Christ this card might be very good. I really hate their one sided design though. Wish it was two sided.

I mean, i prayed for a way for dega to beat miracles, I didn't think I'd get something this insane.

[Kagehisa]

SDT, Fetches, Wastes, Ports, Vials, KotR, equipment, SFM, manlands, what else am I missing that's super common?

EDIT: can you do a RG deck with this and Burning-Tree Shaman?

Deathrite Shaman obviously (all three abilities)

[Julian23]

Cool thing about the card is that it's damage, not life loss. This means if Jace ever tries to bounce this guy, he dies. can be shot with it.

Also super happy they didn't make it legendary. Only downside is being in the literal worst colour for creatures in Legacy.

[Kagehisa]

Cool thing about the card is that it's damage, not life loss. This means if Jace ever tries to bounce this guy, he dies.

Also super happy they didn't make it legendary. Only downside is being in the literal worst colour for creatures in Legacy.

Jace's ability doesn't trigger the red mentor's one.

[Barook]

https://i.redd.it/gpzsck56c0ry.png
http://i.imgur.com/9ttB1Jk.gif

I always hoped for this card since I loved Burning-Tree Shaman, but sadly, he's too bad for Legacy.

I expected it to be :r::r: and symmetrical. This is even more insane.

[rufus]

SDT, Fetches, Wastes, Ports, Vials, KotR, equipment, SFM, manlands, what else am I missing that's super common?
...

Griseldad, Spellskite isn't a thing in legacy, is it?

Edit: Doesn't hit Planeswalkers

[Aggro_zombies]

Planeswalkers?
They don't trigger this guy directly, but you can certainly burn out their Jace if they spin Top and then crack a fetch.

[from Cairo]

SDT, Fetches, Wastes, Ports, Vials, KotR, equipment, SFM, manlands, what else am I missing that's super common?
...

Planeswalkers, Griseldad.

Harsh Mentor says Artifact, Creature or Land.

[rufus]

Harsh Mentor says Artifact, Creature or Land.

Yeah. No planeswalkers or enchantments...

[Ephemeron]

Wow, that card is insane. I hope this means people might consider going back to more streamlined decks like RUG delver that don't play 4 damn colors and rely on Deathrite to stitch it all together. Probably wishful thinking to assume Burn will become that big a player in the meta tho.

[Barook]

Wow, that card is insane. I hope this means people might consider going back to more streamlined decks like RUG delver that don't play 4 damn colors and rely on Deathrite to stitch it all together. Probably wishful thinking to assume Burn will become that big a player in the meta tho.
Jokes on you, since this is one-sided, Miracles will run this in their 75 and roflstomp any opposition left even harder. :rolleyes:

[ESG]

Unfortunately, many people continue to ask for new sledgehammers.

Posted that a few weeks ago in the thread about Miracles and polling Legacy experts. Now we have a new sledgehammer. Designs like this are pretty awful for the game. At least make it symmetrical. Pushed hate bears like this shift strategies in ways that are less interactive.

[Scott]

Few quick thoughts after ~34 seconds of testing:

+ Can force decisions and weird sequencing, like playing a fetch on turn one out of fear, when you normally wouldn't with a Brainstorm in hand, etc.
+ All kinds of applications besides fetches. It's nice to have both this and Eidolon in play against a Vial deck, for instance
- Isn't "guaranteed" 2 damage like Eidolon, if the opponent doesn't need to fetch to remove it (this one actually feels kind of big)

[Scott]

Jokes on you, since this is one-sided, Miracles will run this in their 75 and roflstomp any opposition left even harder. :rolleyes:

Does Miracles want to play the punishing damage game though? I don't play Miracles, but I feel like this sort of card isn't their thing.

[Dice_Box]

I see this making a large impact on Modern, not as big on Legacy. I see it being a strong influence yes, but as a player in the overall game, not as a cornerstone in a plan of attack.

[Darkenslight]

Cool thing about the card is that it's damage, not life loss. This means if Jace ever tries to bounce this guy, he dies. can be shot with it.

Also super happy they didn't make it legendary. Only downside is being in the literal worst colour for creatures in Legacy.

...I think we may hyave Red's OP two-drop. This is seriously powerful.

I'm not sure if this just belongs in Burn, or if there's a deck that can build around this. But this is a very powerful piece of card, and likely the chase Rare of the set. Which is saying something.

[Stan]

After thinking about it some more, I'm not sure that Nissa is going to be very good in any format.

To get her "busted" phase, you need to use the 0 ability a lot, but it only works on lands and creatures, and you need to be able to manipulate the top of your library - which means either Sylvan Library or Top (BS can do it as a one time effect), it also means you need to be running a fair number of creatures and lands in Legacy.

In Modern and Standard there aren't any "top of the library" manipulators, so you're a lot worse off there. Best case scenario you get a land or critter every other turn after setting up with her +2, but that assumes you don't shuffle or draw after using it, and that her +2 is able to put a good creature or land 2 down, which most of the time? It won't be able to.

Probably her best bet in Std/Mdrn is to work as a pseudo-Sylvan for 3 mana that occasionally whacks people with elemental lands.

Not exactly a superb card in today's meta on its own, but it'd work well with Scroll Rack too.

[Gheizen64]

Feel a bit too slow in anythings that's not burn tbh.

Maybe Red Taxes?

4 Harsh mentor
4 Vial
4 Thalia
4 Mom
44 random cards.

[Poron]

it's one sided.
every aggro deck will love to play 4 of them.
your fetchlands are bolts to yourself dear countertop player not to mention top activation

UR Delver is becoming insane. to activate DRS to take life back is going to cut you 2 life.

[Noctalor]

My pov on the mentor.

Let's say that, on average, each turn the opponent is using an ability that triggers the mentor.
The card would be a 2 drop that beats for 4 each turn, acting basicly as a 4/2 for :1::r:, there will be cases when the card will be able to pump more than 2 damage per turn, but surely there will be cases when the card won't do damage at all.
I am not sure if the card will do better than a 4/2 because it can still do damage without attacking or if just being able to do dps more reliably would be better.

I don't think a 4/2 would be good enought to be played in legacy, looking at the current decks it could be played mostly in burn variants, and those decks desperatly need to have reliable sources of damage, this card may act as a vexing devil, too unreliable to be played.

The card is a grizzly bear in some MU, but not many, but could easily do nothing against a lot of decks, delver can most likely mitigate the damage taken from it and is likely to stop its attacks, eldrazi can just ignore it.

The main decks that could lose to this card are miracles, due to the spam activations of sdt and the constant need to fetch, taxes if the player is forced to activate vial multiple times and has no gainlife at hand (it's pretty important to note that this card on board prevents jitte from gaining hp, forcing the first 2 counter to be "wasted" on it).
Is still true that the card can trade 1x1 without doing any damage, which is pretty bad for burn decks.

I really don't know, the potential is huge :eyebrow:

[MechTactical]

Not exactly a superb card in today's meta on its own, but it'd work well with Scroll Rack too.

I'm playing Nissa in my UG Turbo Eldrazi deck 4sure. I don't know in what capacity yet but I preordered a playset just in case :wink:

[Gheizen64]

There's a big difference between a 4/2 and something that say shock on upkeep. 4/2s can't attack into anything.

[Poron]

4 Mentor
4 Eidolon
4 Fireblast
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Swiftspear
16 Bolt

This deck only needs 1 more big uncounterable shot like Firecraft to go tier 1. Let's wait for it in the next expansions

[Kagehisa]

4 Mentor
4 Eidolon
4 Fireblast
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Swiftspear
16 Bolt

This deck only needs 1 more big uncounterable shot like Firecraft to go tier 1. Let's wait for it in the next expansions

Urza's Rage ?

[Poron]

I'd prefer a 4-5 damages one

[Dice_Box]

Vanilla Mythic. Remember when Mythic were meant to be cards that where flavour suited to the rarity? Yea, me either.

https://i.redd.it/n4vg1m90s2ry.png

[H]

Vanilla Mythic. Remember when Mythic were meant to be cards that where flavour suited to the rarity? Yea, me either.

It's fake my man, they didn't even bother to spell the artist's name right.

[Barook]

Edit: Nevermind, the Wurm is fake.

Glyph Keeper :3::u::u:
Creature - Sphinx
Flying
Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability for the first time in a turn, counter that spell or ability.
Embalm 5UU (5UU, Exile this card from your graveyard: Create a token that's a copy of it, except it's a white Zombie Sphinx with no mana cost. Embalm only as a sorcery.)
5/3

A shame it dies to Delver. Oh well.

[Gheizen64]

4 Mentor
4 Eidolon
4 Fireblast
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Swiftspear
16 Bolt

This deck only needs 1 more big uncounterable shot like Firecraft to go tier 1. Let's wait for it in the next expansions

The new 1/2 prowess is unplayable here? Seems deece.

[Zoomer3989]

The new 1/2 prowess is unplayable here? Seems deece.

You get Goblin Guide instead though:

4x Goblin Guide
4x Swiftspear
4x Eidolon
4x Harsh Mentor
-
16x Bolt
4x Price
4x Fireblast
-
20 land (probably basic mountains and Barbarian Ring)

If HM is in the board, you play the regular Flame Rifts/Searing Blaze/Grims, or maindeck Exquisite Firecraft.

[Dice_Box]

It's fake my man, they didn't even bother to spell the artist's name right.

Oh well, there is a Vanilla Mythic at some point this year.

[Claymore]

Red Mentor can be played in 4C Loam as another piece against blue decks. Not sure what it would be sided in for, but it fits there well. Play it t1 off of a mox, get STP'd the next turn anyway...

[Cire]

Since it's one-sided, I think it would do well to protect it from removal with Mom?

[H]

Oh well, there is a Vanilla Mythic at some point this year.

OK, but I mean just because it's vanilla doesn't preclude that it will suck. We get tons of (mostly Black or Red) Mythics that are awful, probably not even good in Limited, rehashed and rehashed again filler that aren't vanilla and still suck big time.

Such hits as Lets Make Essentially the Same Bad Phoenix Design:
Akoum Firebird, Ashcloud Phoenix, Flame-Wreathed Phoenix

Or Lets Make the Not Very Good Zombie Maker Sorcery:
Army of the Damned, Empty the Pits

Or the Extra Combat Step dude:
Lightning Runner, Combat Celebrant (these two are in sets right after each other for God's sake)

Or the Overcosted, Still Not Even Playable In EDH Demon:
Malfegor, Prince of Thralls

I mean, having a bunch of rules text doesn't really make a card any good. Being Vanilla doesn't make it suck. Rehashed, overcosted and not interesting at all design does that.

Frankly, it would be refreshing to see something at least different, even if the odds are it still sucks.

[rufus]

...
A shame it dies to Delver. Oh well.

Sooner or later they'll have painted themselves into a corner with creature power creep.

[morgan_coke]

Well, the Starstorm replacement is pretty dang good.

1RR
Sorcery
Deals 3 damage to each creature
Cycling: 3

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/enigmadrake.jpg

It can survive Bolt or Delver, still dies to AD and StP. Thoughts about this?

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/samutvoiceofdissent.jpg

There are probably way better 5-drops than this, simply due the lack of protection.

[MaximumC]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/enigmadrake.jpg

It can survive Bolt or Delver, still dies to AD and StP. Thoughts about this?


A three drop with four power is a fine wall in the air and the ground, and it has the ability to win in the late game. Seems like a solid control card for Standard. "Dies to Removal" in legacy, however.

The real story is this:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426597&type=card

Well that didn't last too long, did it? Looks like my foils of this little flying goat are now firelighters.



http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/samutvoiceofdissent.jpg
There are probably way better 5-drops than this, simply due the lack of protection.

There are, but holy heck that card has ALL the abilities.

[rufus]

...

There are probably way better 5-drops than this, simply due the lack of protection.

Soulflayer thinks it's very tasty. Also has potential as a haste-granting combo piece though Flame-Kin Zealot is probably better a lot of the time.

[Pilhas]

The flash+haste makes it super nasty.... maybe I'll try it in four color loam for funsies....
This next to a knight :eek:

[rufus]

The flash+haste makes it super nasty....

Haste seems mostly redundant with flash for creatures.

[Barook]

Haste seems mostly redundant with flash for creatures.
Well, you could flash it in for an emergency untap - for the low, low price of :3::r::g::w:. :wink:

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/byforce.jpg

This seems pretty decent.

[filln]

Haste seems mostly redundant with flash for creatures.

At least 4C Loam has the possibility of flashing in EOT and using the untap ability (for Knight?). Most decks wouldn't have the color resources to do it and actually have something worthwhile to untap.

[filln]

Well, you could flash it in for an emergency untap - for the low, low price of :3::r::g::w:. :wink:

[By Force]

This seems pretty decent.

Interesting. What are the advantages of this over Shattering Spree? A variable casting cost and can't be Stifled?

[Pilhas]

Interesting. What are the advantages of this over Shattering Spree? A variable casting cost and can't be Stifled?

A deck splashing Red can easily run it. Shattering Spree requires red mana for all the copies. Still Spree seems superior

[rufus]

Wayward Servant BW 2/2 - whenever another zombie enters the battlefield under your control, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.

Another body that combos with Rite of Replication, or Gravecrawler + Phyrexian Altar.

Probably not going to be a legacy card, but this set has me wondering whether zombie tribal is getting a boost.

[rufus]

Interesting. What are the advantages of this over Shattering Spree? A variable casting cost and can't be Stifled?

I think it's got more potential as a Shatterstorm alternative in modern.

[Claymore]

The 5cc warrior can let you cast Knight and find the Dark Depths combo in one turn, instead of dragging it out over 3 turns. Not sure if you can pay for Marit Lage (3cc for the knight, 1 untap, 2 to activate Stage) but it's there.

Looks like a neat EDH commander though.

[TsumiBand]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/byforce.jpg

This seems pretty decent.

Why was this the first thing I thought of when I saw this card

http://orig09.deviantart.net/91d0/f/2013/058/0/d/zelda_pot_smasher_5_400_by_tobiasriedinger-d5we9sx.gif

...the next thing I thought of was "man, this would just murder my super dormant Affinity deck". I hate it when my robots die

[kombatkiwi]

"The real downside to Pulverize is that you have to adjust your mana base to support it, although, you'd have to do the same for Shattering Spree as well."
-Bryant Cook 2017

I guess the new card could be a good wish target but I have barely any experience with TES/Doomsday etc

[ReAnimator]

The real story is this:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426597&type=card

Well that didn't last too long, did it? Looks like my foils of this little flying goat are now firelighters.



Trample is certainly worth more than 1 extra toughness some of the time.

[Lemnear]

-Bryant Cook 2017

I guess the new card could be a good wish target but I have barely any experience with TES/Doomsday etc

This card easily costs 3+ mana post-wish to get rid of anything. Unplayable

[LeoCop 90]

I think harsh mentor is being overhyped. For it to be REALLY good, it would have to :

- punish abilities of any permanent (so you shock planeswalkers when they get activated)

or

- have more relevant stats. at least have haste or first strike.

or both things, but that would probably be too much.

As it stands, in which deck are you going to play it? Burn is a candidate, but a bear without haste that can die without dealing any damage is not ideal. Maybe in the sideboard.
Imperial painter or r/w death and taxes? sure, as a one of you can tutor it with recruiters, but well, these decks are not too interested in shocking opponents, they would rather lock them in other ways.

I don't know, it just seems slightly not good enough to see serious maindeck play in any deck.

[TsumiBand]

I think harsh mentor is being overhyped. For it to be REALLY good, it would have to :

- punish abilities of any permanent (so you shock planeswalkers when they get activated)

or

- have more relevant stats. at least have haste or first strike.

or both things, but that would probably be too much.

As it stands, in which deck are you going to play it? Burn is a candidate, but a bear without haste that can die without dealing any damage is not ideal. Maybe in the sideboard.
Imperial painter or r/w death and taxes? sure, as a one of you can tutor it with recruiters, but well, these decks are not too interested in shocking opponents, they would rather lock them in other ways.

I don't know, it just seems slightly not good enough to see serious maindeck play in any deck.

It has the same problem every Red dude that does basically this has; it doesn't actually stop the opponent from doing anything unless they're at a critical life total, so they will just choose to ignore it until they can't. I don't really see this card as being a big deal.

[MaximumC]

It has the same problem every Red dude that does basically this has; it doesn't actually stop the opponent from doing anything unless they're at a critical life total, so they will just choose to ignore it until they can't. I don't really see this card as being a big deal.

I don't see it being overhyped too much. It's absolutely Legacy/Vintage playable. Whether it actually sees play is a whole different ball of wax. Recall that Eidelion sees play regularly in red decks, and Scab-Clan Berseker once won a major Vintage event. Champs 2016, I think? Not sure.

Anyway, the basement for Mentor is Suppression Field, I think. It's absolutely something you want in your Legacy toolbox, even if its utility waxes and wanes depending on the metagame.

[LeoCop 90]

Exactly tsumi, dealing damage doesn't always matter. I just wish they will remember one day that red can do other things too. Like, do something to fucking lands. Just imagine if it was: each time an opponent activates an ability of whatever, tap target land he controls. That land doesn't untap during his next upkeep. It wouldn't stop infinite combos, but it would be an absolute pain to play against for basically everyone.

[Lemnear]

It has the same problem every Red dude that does basically this has; it doesn't actually stop the opponent from doing anything unless they're at a critical life total, so they will just choose to ignore it until they can't. I don't really see this card as being a big deal.

I think so too. It reminds me too much of Eidolon, which you can pretty mich ignore to some extend unless you play storm.

I however wonder if this creature is enough to bring Sligh.dec back to life, given all the options with red 1-2cc creatures. Wouldn't it be an option to run something alongside:

Aether Vial
Eidolon
Mentor
Goblin Guide
Imperial Recruiter
REB
Pyroblast

[morgan_coke]

Exactly tsumi, dealing damage doesn't always matter. I just wish they will remember one day that red can do other things too. Like, do something to fucking lands. Just imagine if it was: each time an opponent activates an ability of whatever, tap target land he controls. That land doesn't untap during his next upkeep. It wouldn't stop infinite combos, but it would be an absolute pain to play against for basically everyone.

You know, I was thinking about why Modern has such a terrible problem with nonbasic manabases and yet has no way to punish them, and simultaneously there are some LD decks floating around. It seems like a lot of competing problems and a Gordian knot, but I think it's really because Modern is slow enough that cards like Stone Rain and Molten Rain can get played. Same with the 4 mana LD spells. I think the solution to this is simple, ban all the 3cc LD spells, like Stone Rain. At that point, Basics become "safe" and just refuse to print any LD spell that can hit a basic land for less than 4 mana. Now you can safely print a "worse wasteland" like say "1,T: Sacrifice to destroy target nonbasic land" that will actually punish decks for running crazy manabases, while still giving people an option to play Magic.

I really think that's one of the two reasons Modern is so messed up, is that 1: Basics aren't safe, and 2: No Counterspell. The lack of those two options really hurts the game in general I think. A lot of Wizards' problems with the format would go away with those two changes.

So, I don't think we're going to get Red messing with lands in any kind of standard legal set anytime soon, or, ever.

[LeoCop 90]

I'm not sure i follow your logic, morgan. Modern greedy manabases are mainly punished by self-damage with shocklands, and blood moon. Also ghost quarter is a thing. I'm not sure if this is enough, but i fail to undestand the statement "basics aren't safe in modern". Do you really think decks playing stone rain/molten rain are a problem? i can tell you i occasionally play r/g ponza in modern and it is just a fringe deck that struggles against fast strategies like affinity, burn, infect, and so on. 3 casting cost land destruction is not really oppressive, nor particularly competitive.....

If we don't see red ever messing with lands, is for the usual old reason that standard players are childish people that want too cast their expensive cards without any problem. But anyway we are deviating from the topic i think

[Cire]

I however wonder if this creature is enough to bring Sligh.dec back to life,

I kinda like the idea of this - something like this:


4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
4 Harsh Mentor
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
4 Magus of the Moons (ehh. . . probably not, you don't have a way to accel this out)

4 Aether Vial
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress

18 Mountain

[rufus]

I kinda like the idea of this - something like this: ...

Isn't something like Goblin Bushwhacker just going to be better in that deck though?

I suspect that Harsh Mentor suffers from 'choice card' syndrome. Your opponent chooses whether to activate or not, and that makes the ability much weaker than it seems at first blush.

[Claymore]

Potentially, but Eidolon is also card choice. Red Mentor punishes something that most decks are required to do, and in the case of DRS, Top, or SFM it's how those decks function to beat Burn or RDW.

[Purple Blood]

I kinda like the idea of this - something like this:


4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
4 Harsh Mentor
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
4 Magus of the Moons (ehh. . . probably not, you don't have a way to accel this out)

4 Aether Vial
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress

18 Mountain


If you're going the Vial route would you want to test out a Wasteland/Port package? Throw in Revoker, maybe Imperial Recruiter, and/or Blood Moon/Stone Rain with SSG. Burn & Taxes :laugh:

[filln]

If you're going the Vial route would you want to test out a Wasteland/Port package? Throw in Revoker, maybe Imperial Recruiter, and/or Blood Moon/Stone Rain with SSG. Burn & Taxes :laugh:

I'd be so happy if Stone Rain made it into a competitive deck.

[LeoCop 90]

Aether vial seems out of place in that list, just replace it with 4 simian spirit guide. Casting eidolon, mentor or magus one turn earlier is very good, vialing in switspears and goblin guides not so much.

Also add more burn and cut some of the 3 drops. probably just put scab clan in sideboard.

[Purple Blood]

I'd be so happy if Stone Rain made it into a competitive deck.

Seriously. It's been pretty much my favorite card since I started playing in the 90s. My Stone Rain/Avalanche Riders/Plow Under deck was probably my favorite of all time in Type 2; the good ole days. :laugh:

When I got back into the game and found out they no longer supported land destruction strategies I was sorely disappointed.

[Lord Seth]

As Foretold is in this set, and they know it's fucking stupid and broken.In what way? I know a few people have freaked out but it's looking more and more like another Temporal Mastery to me.


Pro-Tip, the last time they changed the rules or pre-emptively banned something even before release was Mind's Desire, which was absolutely broken in the formats it was banned in.They change the rules plenty of times before something gets released; heck, all rules changes inherently have to occur before something gets released. I have no idea what you're on about here.

Also, Mind's Desire was banned after Scourge was released. Scourge was released in May, its banning was announced in June and became effective in July.


The dressed up the rule change in Split cards as something else, but straight up, it was because As Foretold is another card that slipped through their super-rigorous FFL testing, much like the CopyCat combo.I'm a bit confused as to how As Foretold is particularly affected by the split card change, at least in Standard (which is all the FFL tests for). Perhaps the argument is it could've been used with Aftermath. I'm not sure how well that synergy would've worked under the old rules, but because the Aftermath part can only be cast from the graveyard, the only possible synergy I'd see was the ability to cast the more expensive Aftermath side from the lower CMC of the "normal" side via As Foretold, which isn't all that amazing of a synergy (you have to get the card into your graveyard, then get a few counters on As Foretold).

Or are you alluding to something else? I feel rather confused by your post.

[MaximumC]

I'm a bit confused as to how As Foretold is particularly affected by the split card change, at least in Standard (which is all the FFL tests for). Perhaps the argument is it could've been used with Aftermath. I'm not sure how well that synergy would've worked under the old rules, but because the Aftermath part can only be cast from the graveyard, the only possible synergy I'd see was the ability to cast the more expensive Aftermath side from the lower CMC of the "normal" side via As Foretold, which isn't all that amazing of a synergy (you have to get the card into your graveyard, then get a few counters on As Foretold).

Or are you alluding to something else? I feel rather confused by your post.

As Foretold is not as good as people are saying it is, no, but it did lose a lot of gas with the change to Split cards. Just like Brain in a Jar and Isochron Scepter, As Foretold previously could have cast both halves of a Fuse card when it was ticked up to only the lesser half. That's probably what he's on about.

So, like, under the prior rules you could play As Foretold on turn 3 and then on turn 5 you could cast Beck//Call. (Except you won't live that long because you decided to play those cards in Legacy.)

[Dice_Box]

The place that Split cards were making a splash was Modern. There was a reanimator deck using Breaking // Entering and Expertise (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Expertise]) cards. Also Bird Brain was a deck using Brain in a Jar (Still in the running for least interesting name you can think of for a card that could have been named something sweet) and Beck // Call.

If you asked me what was the reasoning behind the change, I would say it was the new reanimator deck showed that unless they fixed the trick they had to limit themselves on design space. Because all those cards happened to be very easy to abuse in Modern. Also, not printing cards they want to because of a trick they can fix with a rules update seemed to be unappealing to Wizards. Personally I do not blame them.

[MaximumC]

Personally I do not blame them.

I do. They wrecked a cool rules interaction.

That said, changing the Comp Rules is absolutely, 100% within their purview. They've done it before, they'll do it again, it's fine. It's on par with bannings and restrictions. It happens.

Its only when they start doing post-printing development of cards (ala power level errata or "original intent" errata) that my jimmies really start getting rustled.

[Aggro_zombies]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/samutvoiceofdissent.jpg

There are probably way better 5-drops than this, simply due the lack of protection.
I don't get what story this card is trying to tell. It's a random hodge-podge of abilities. Haste and flash? Flash obsoletes haste in all but a small number of corner cases, though I guess with instant speed draw in the set (cycling) you'll have those come up more often. Double strike and vigilance? Okay, so a red ability and a green ability, that's fine. But white to untap another dude? Huh? Why? It couldn't be green? The random white mana symbol in the text box looks so out of place. And what's the concept for this character? She's got a bunch of abilities that imply speed or surprise (flash, haste) and combat prowess (double strike, vigilance), so she's...what, some kind of super warrior? Who dissents somehow?

This card is bizarre. I don't even think it's good, it just bugs me.

[UnderwaterGuy]

I think it's an EDH card and the white is to make her a three-color general.

Pretty weak design even though it looks like a reasonable general mechanically.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/gideonsintervention.jpg

Cool card, kind of a mashup between Nevermore and Runed Halo

[Barook]

She's got a bunch of abilities that imply speed or surprise (flash, haste) and combat prowess (double strike, vigilance), so she's...what, some kind of super warrior?
Reminds me of Radha during Time Spiral block who was hailed as some kind of super special awesome warrior. And then we got this nonsensical PoS: Radha, Heir to Keld

[TsumiBand]

Reminds me of Radha during Time Spiral block who was hailed as some kind of super special awesome warrior. And then we got this nonsensical PoS: Radha, Heir to Keld

Pretty sure that when it was printed you could still float mana through steps so it was slightly less bad than it is now (but only slightly)

[Lord Seth]

As Foretold is not as good as people are saying it is, no, but it did lose a lot of gas with the change to Split cards. Just like Brain in a Jar and Isochron Scepter, As Foretold previously could have cast both halves of a Fuse card when it was ticked up to only the lesser half. That's probably what he's on about.

So, like, under the prior rules you could play As Foretold on turn 3 and then on turn 5 you could cast Beck//Call. (Except you won't live that long because you decided to play those cards in Legacy.)But things like Beck//Call with As Foretold can't work in Standard because Beck//Call isn't legal in Standard, and they were claiming this is something they missed in testing for Standard.

The most you could do with As Foretold that would be changed by the ruling is you can't pull the trick where you use it to cast one of the Aftermath cards at its cheaper regular CMC, then have it cast the actual Aftermath part of it instead to cheat costs a little. Problem is, that's not that particularly strong of an interaction when you consider it takes a while to actually pay off, and I'm not even sure it worked that way under the old rules, as the Aftermath cards do specifically say you can only cast the Aftermath part from your graveyard. In that case, the change to the split cards did nothing to As Foretold in Standard.

[Ace/Homebrew]

This card is bizarre. I don't even think it's good, it just bugs me.
I'm gonna assume Bolas is still :b::u::r:. Based on the flavor text, the character appears to be the biggest anti-Bolas force native to the plane. If Ajani VS Bolas set precedent, then Naya is the foe of Grixis... so that probably explains the tacked on :w: ability.

Vigilance and the untap ability are to abuse Exert.
Flash and haste takes advantage of cycling, as you mentioned.
Double strike for value I guess. :rolleyes:

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm gonna assume Bolas is still :b::u::r:. Based on the flavor text, the character appears to be the biggest anti-Bolas force native to the plane. If Ajani VS Bolas set precedent, then Naya is the foe of Grixis... so that probably explains the tacked on :w: ability.

Vigilance and the untap ability are to abuse Exert.
Flash and haste takes advantage of cycling, as you mentioned.
Double strike for value I guess. :rolleyes:
I get all of that, it just feels like one of those cards the advanced algorithm for RoboRosewater would make.

[Barook]

More Deserts!

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/graspingdunes.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/cradleoftheaccursed.jpg

Grasping Dunes seems pretty okay. Not sure into which Legacy deck it could fit, though.

[Jain_Mor]

For the cycling deck of your dreams?

https://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/shadowofthegrave.jpg

[Gheizen64]

Fluctuator engine! Elegiggle. Seems somewhat more playable if you have a discard engine of some sort with no mana costs and do somethign with that. Aka unplayable. I'll see someone playing a skirge familiar pile with this at least once i think.

There's a 4/3 minotaur for 1R that discard a card on ETB. It's pretty deece, even if unplayable in today's legacy (4/3 for 2? More like 5/5 for 1). I really wish the format was a bit slower again, ban petal plz. This would have been so good in TnT back then.

Also to whoever mentioned stone rain. We have a card almost strictly better in this format, Cryoclasm. 3 damage ain't no joke and hit every deck except elves.

Grasping Dunes can sacrifice your own Explorers! Kappo.

[Darkenslight]

Fluctuator engine! Elegiggle. Seems somewhat more playable if you have a discard engine of some sort with no mana costs and do somethign with that. Aka unplayable. I'll see someone playing a skirge familiar pile with this at least once i think.

There's a 4/3 minotaur for 1R that discard a card on ETB. It's pretty deece, even if unplayable in today's legacy (4/3 for 2? More like 5/5 for 1). I really wish the format was a bit slower again, ban petal plz. This would have been so good in TnT back then.

Also to whoever mentioned stone rain. We have a card almost strictly better in this format, Cryoclasm. 3 damage ain't no joke and hit every deck except elves.

Grasping Dunes can sacrifice your own Explorers! Kappo.

It also works to make a BR Seismic Assault deck (Shadows of the Grave). Just throw a ton of lands, cast this, throw more lands.

[Gheizen64]

It also works to make a BR Seismic Assault deck (Shadows of the Grave). Just throw a ton of lands, cast this, throw more lands.


4 Fluctuator
4 Seismic Assault
4 Shadow of the grave
4 Dark ritual
4 manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
4 E. Tutor
4 Thoughtseize
28 cyclelands

Format broken!

[Barook]

It also works to make a BR Seismic Assault deck (Shadows of the Grave). Just throw a ton of lands, cast this, throw more lands.
SotG + Assault + 5 lands is lethal - probably the easiest way to get some mileage out of it.

Are there any other ways to break it? There's also LED, but with a net gain of a single mana an extra card, it doesn't seem very good.

[kombatkiwi]

Infernal Tutor, resp crack LED
Search for Shadow of the Grave
Return all your rituals that you discarded plus some other piece of gas (You can't even return the infernal tutor you just played, natch, why didn't you just cast the rituals from your hand in the first place, double natch)
Go off?

Seems pretty bad lol

If you can get to the point where you are rebuying multiple Street Wraiths with it then potentially you have something going there but you are going to be paying a lot of life and you probably aren't going to have enough lands to Edge of Autumn in multiples.

None of the 'free discard' effects (Skirge Familiar, Zombie Infestation, Seismic Assault etc) seem worth it either.

Maybe if Frantic Search was unbanned...

[Echelon]

Shadow of the Grave is oddly worded - how does one cycle a card without discarding it? It's part of the friggin' cost of cycling a card (i.e. any card you cycle falls under the clause "cards you discarded this turn" - therefor there's no need to specifically mention cycling on SotG).

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Shadow of the Grave is oddly worded - how does one cycle a card without discarding it? It's part of the friggin' cost of cycling a card (i.e. any card you cycle falls under the clause "cards you discarded this turn" - therefor there's no need to specifically mention cycling on SotG).

maaaybe there is a super edge case where a replacement effect alters discarding into: put it into your graveyard instead


nah joke it doest make sense...

[bruizar]

I think it makes a lot of sense. Not everyone that plays magic is a 20+ year eternal veteran. Cycle or discard is mentioned on a bunch of other cards.

I really, really like Grasping Dunes. Finally a quicksand that doesn't require the (utility) creature to attack, a barbarian ring that doesn't require red mana or threshold, and a mouth of ronom that does not require 5 mana of which one is snow. Great card against things like Young Pyromancer or Mother of Runes.

[rufus]

Shadow of the Grave is oddly worded - how does one cycle a card without discarding it? It's part of the friggin' cost of cycling a card (i.e. any card you cycle falls under the clause "cards you discarded this turn" - therefor there's no need to specifically mention cycling on SotG).

Maybe there's some (as yet unspoiled) replacement effect for discard coming.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think it makes a lot of sense. Not everyone that plays magic is a 20+ year eternal veteran. Cycle or discard is mentioned on a bunch of other cards.

I really, really like Grasping Dunes. Finally a quicksand that doesn't require the (utility) creature to attack, a barbarian ring that doesn't require red mana or threshold, and a mouth of ronom that does not require 5 mana of which one is snow. Great card against things like Young Pyromancer or Mother of Runes.

Yah its great. With crucible/Loam it can get rid of nearly everything. It reads slow but even a Gurmag angler wont kill you (10 dmg thou). Prolly just a 1 off tutor target in these kinda decks. Its also awkward vs DRS but not total terrible. (with crucible shoot it regain priority land drop shoot again)

[rufus]

maaaybe there is a super edge case where a replacement effect alters discarding into: put it into your graveyard instead


nah joke it doest make sense...

It doesn't interact with cycling, but I'm curious about the interaction with Library of Leng now.

Edit: Cards from graveyard only, so not so much fun.

[rufus]

...

Are there any other ways to break it? There's also LED, but with a net gain of a single mana an extra card, it doesn't seem very good.

Ill-Gotten Gains could work. There's discard offset draw stuff like Cephalid Coliseum or Cathartic Reunion. There are lots of ways to loot in bulk like Jeskai Ascension or Riddlesmith. There also some marginal 'discard as a cost' cards like Mind over Matter or Zombie Infestation. It's fun with Bomat Courier and there's higher CC stuff like Breakthrough.

[TsumiBand]

For the cycling deck of your dreams?

https://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/shadowofthegrave.jpg

T1: Bayou, Dark Ritual, Shadow of the Grave, before passing priority cast One With Nothing

[H]

T1: Bayou, Dark Ritual, Shadow of the Grave, before passing priority cast One With Nothing

:laugh:

What did you accomplish there?

I think they only real thing to abuse would be Seismic Assault.

[morgan_coke]

Holy wow Shadow of the Grave is amazing. Honestly might be good enough to replace Loam in Slide decks, which would let you drop Green and open up all kinds of possibilities. Crazy good card.

I do wonder about it's potential as a combo enable. Some here have mentioned Ill-Gotten Gains, LED, and Infernal Tutor, but I see it as more in line with Behold the Beyond. I don't know if BtB is good enough for Legacy, but this combo is probably good enough for Modern. Mabye.

EDIT: this plus Breakthrough for 1 is 4 mana to draw 7. That's not bad.
EDIT2: oh, it's only 4 cards, not that great. Tolarian Winds maybe? No. Hmm. Whatever, Faithless Looting and any draw/discard spell or repeatable effect works. Maybe Jeskai Ascendancy or something?

[Megadeus]

Slots perfectly in my Leyline of the void, Ill Gotten Gains deck that I have never made a list for but sounds hilarious in theory

[H]

Slots perfectly in my Leyline of the void, Ill Gotten Gains deck that I have never made a list for but sounds hilarious in theory

One of our locals played it a few times last month or so. Funny and scary when it works, but clunky and inconsistent most of the time.

[Cire]

So upset Winds of Change doesn't discard but shuffles your hands :/

[Darkenslight]

Slots perfectly in my Leyline of the void, Ill Gotten Gains deck that I have never made a list for but sounds hilarious in theory

Legacy IGGy Pop?

He's the real MVP!

What's interesting, though, is that this card has to be the first card taken, if you have two mana open. So, for decks with discard as disruption, Shadows might see some play as a result of being anti-discard hate. I'#m also amused by the interaction between this and Raven's Crime.

[rufus]

If you really want to combo, you could try for Necrologia -> Fateful Showdown + Shadow of the Grave

Another dopey (a.k.a. bad) way to go is Greater Good.

[morgan_coke]

If you really want to combo, you could try for Necrologia -> Fateful Showdown + Shadow of the Grave

Another dopey (a.k.a. bad) way to go is Greater Good.

Greater Good + Yosei + Goryo's + SotG?

[TsumiBand]

Holy wow Shadow of the Grave is amazing. Honestly might be good enough to replace Loam in Slide decks, which would let you drop Green and open up all kinds of possibilities.

It's been a very long time since I played a deck with Loam in it, but isn't this like saying an engine deck doesn't need its engine? Like you draw Loam once and unless it gets exiled, you're online. Is Loam recursion just not very important then, because if not it sounds like maybe the deck could drop the whole routine in the first place and evolve into something more stronk

[apple713]

Legacy IGGy Pop?

He's the real MVP!

What's interesting, though, is that this card has to be the first card taken, if you have two mana open. So, for decks with discard as disruption, Shadows might see some play as a result of being anti-discard hate. I'#m also amused by the interaction between this and Raven's Crime.

Fluctuator might actually see some play with Shadows of the grave. Maybe it's too cute?

[TsumiBand]

I wonder if Shadow of the Grave could be part of some durdly combo with like Wild Mongrel or Stoic Champion... usually "I make my dude infinitely big" combos are terribad though, and probably inferior to Infect.dec, right? Wild Mongrel though, I just want him to return and reclaim his once vaunted role as "probably the best Green 2-drop" :( :(

[morgan_coke]

It's been a very long time since I played a deck with Loam in it, but isn't this like saying an engine deck doesn't need its engine? Like you draw Loam once and unless it gets exiled, you're online. Is Loam recursion just not very important then, because if not it sounds like maybe the deck could drop the whole routine in the first place and evolve into something more stronk

The loam engine and the previously available pool of cycling cards put a lot of build restrictions on a cycling deck that over time, evolved to be... not very good. SotG and the various new cycling cards are strong enough that those may not be necessary anymore.

For example, right now I would lean towards UBw as the colors of a cycling deck, which is a huge shift from where it used to be, and potentially much stronger too. Have to wait for the full set, that may change going forward.

[Cire]

I.e. Fluctuator. Let's imagine a best case scenario:

Turn 1 - Land (6 cards in hand)
Turn 2 - Land, Fluctuator (5 cards in hand)
Turn 3 - Cycle 3 cards, should get about 2 extra cyclers. Cycle them too. Should get at least one more cycler. Cycle it. You should have cycled about 6 cyclers and have 4 non-cycling cards in hand. Cast Shadow of the Grave. Cycle the 6 cards you discarded. You should get about 3 extra cyclers. Cycle them. Maybe you'll get another cycler. Cycle it. You should have 7 non-cycling cards in your hand at this point and no mana open. I guess the combo is to cast a lotus petal into a dark ritual into another Shadow of the grave that you should have drawn at this point. You at this point cycled 10 cards, cycle them all again. You should draw about 6 other cyclers, cycle them and get 3 more cylcer and then another. Cycle them. You should have about 15 non-cycling cards in your hand at this point and 1 mana open. Repeat the process and draw most of your deck. Using the extra mana from the dark rituals, cast another lotus petal into lab maniac and cycle to win?

So the deck would at the beggining look like:

4 Fluctuator
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Lab Maniac

4 Barren Moor
4 Lands that don't ETBT
9 Cycling Lands
26 Cycling cards

You then fiddle with the numbers. Do you really need 4 shadows, petals or rituals? You only need 36 cylcers, should you get rid of 3? Would that leave room for enlightened tutor? The 4 non-ETB tapped lands could be Mox diamonds since you can then discard a cycle land for them and get it back with Shadows. And, etc.

However, it seems that even at it's best it's a turn 2-3 combo deck with no protection.

[Megadeus]

Shadow of the grave + Tog is potentially a lot of fucking damage

[H]

Shadow of the grave + Tog is potentially a lot of fucking damage

Sadly I missed the Dr. Teeth era of Vintage by a bit and while these two together is absurd, I don't think now is the time for three mana dies-to-everything combo, :frown:

[Megadeus]

I think there's a way it's not terrible god dammit. This card makes looting effects incredible and those also fill the yard quickly for Dr. Teeth. I'm a fucking brewin boys

[H]

I think there's a way it's not terrible god dammit. This card makes looting effects incredible and those also fill the yard quickly for Dr. Teeth. I'm a fucking brewin boys

Oh, the value is crazy. The problem is removal and chump-blockers, which I'm not sure you can really solve. Maybe with Mother of Runes.

Don't let me hold you back though.

#MakeDrTeethGreatAgain

[Barook]

I.e. Fluctuator. Let's imagine a best case scenario:

Turn 1 - Land (6 cards in hand)
Turn 2 - Land, Fluctuator (5 cards in hand)
Turn 3 - Cycle 3 cards, should get about 2 extra cyclers. Cycle them too. Should get at least one more cycler. Cycle it. You should have cycled about 6 cyclers and have 4 non-cycling cards in hand. Cast Shadow of the Grave. Cycle the 6 cards you discarded. You should get about 3 extra cyclers. Cycle them. Maybe you'll get another cycler. Cycle it. You should have 7 non-cycling cards in your hand at this point and no mana open. I guess the combo is to cast a lotus petal into a dark ritual into another Shadow of the grave that you should have drawn at this point. You at this point cycled 10 cards, cycle them all again. You should draw about 6 other cyclers, cycle them and get 3 more cylcer and then another. Cycle them. You should have about 15 non-cycling cards in your hand at this point and 1 mana open. Repeat the process and draw most of your deck. Using the extra mana from the dark rituals, cast another lotus petal into lab maniac and cycle to win?

So the deck would at the beggining look like:

4 Fluctuator
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Lab Maniac

4 Barren Moor
4 Lands that don't ETBT
9 Cycling Lands
26 Cycling cards

You then fiddle with the numbers. Do you really need 4 shadows, petals or rituals? You only need 36 cylcers, should you get rid of 3? Would that leave room for enlightened tutor? Etc.

However, it seems that even at it's best it's a turn 2-3 combo deck with no protection.
If your deck is mainly lands, wouldn't Treasure Hunt be good?

Still not a fan of playing one win-con without protection.

With that many lands, Mox Diamond should be good as well - mana fixing + accel + getting your lands back anyway. Doesn't play well with Treasure Hunt, though.

[Megadeus]

Oh, the value is crazy. The problem is removal and chump-blockers, which I'm not sure you can really solve. Maybe with Mother of Runes.

Don't let me hold you back though.

#MakeDrTeethGreatAgain

Green Sun for Nylea? Am I doing it right? BUG Fit with Dr. Teeth and Nylea is... a thing

[maharis]

Green Sun for Nylea? Am I doing it right? BUG Fit with Dr. Teeth and Nylea is... a thing

Berserk is the answer you seek

[Barook]

Berserk is the answer you seek
I'd be more concerned with Abrupt Decay.

New land:
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/cascadingcataracts.jpg

[TsumiBand]

Shadow of the grave + Tog is potentially a lot of fucking damage

Man how did I forget about Psychatog? That's good eatin' right there.

It feels like anything where "Discard a card" is the *only* cost for an activated ability should maybe get a second look. Seismic Assault was a good call earlier in the thread

[Megadeus]

Berserk is the answer you seek

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.208611957.4448/flat,800x800,075,f.u1.jpg

BUG Tog
4 Deathrite
4 Tog
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Probe
4 Force
4 Shadow of the Grave
2 Breakthrough
2 Unearth
4 Fatal Push
2 Berserk
4 Careful Study

Did I break the format?

[morgan_coke]

It goes really good with Zombardment too, right? Discard your hand for 2-3 2/2's, get 'em all back. Would also work with Survival if that was legal.

[maharis]

I'd be more concerned with Abrupt Decay.

New land:
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/cascadingcataracts.jpg

If you iggy pop them they have no hand. Or you just start your turn with Autumn's Veil.

Shadow of the Grave definitely makes fluctuator and slide more viable. You can slide your own E-Wit to get Shadow back.

[MaximumC]

I'd be more concerned with Abrupt Decay.

New land:
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/cascadingcataracts.jpg

So this duder is now in Modern, eh?
http://i.tcgplayer.com/9593_200w.jpg

I wonder what was wrong with just reprinting the original version? Oh well, now we have two.

Combos with Fist of Suns and Etched Monstrosity on turn 6.... ok?

[maharis]

BUG Tog
4 Deathrite
4 Tog
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Probe
4 Force
4 Shadow of the Grave
2 Breakthrough
2 Unearth
4 Fatal Push
2 Berserk
4 Careful Study

Did I break the format?

lol!

Intuition and Snapcaster. A pile of Snap, Unearth and Tog is guaranteed tog next turn. Snap also rebuys shadow. Maybe Jace VP too?

Maybe discard instead of counters for protection, or something like Blossoming Defense.

[Megadeus]

lol!

Intuition and Snapcaster. A pile of Snap, Unearth and Tog is guaranteed tog next turn. Snap also rebuys shadow. Maybe Jace VP too?

Maybe discard instead of counters for protection, or something like Blossoming Defense.

Probably needs another win condition or something. Maybe a Stiflenought variant? Or maybe just Goyf because goyf is a retarded creature.

[filln]

I'd be more concerned with Abrupt Decay.

New land:
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/cascadingcataracts.jpg

Might try slotting this in for fun in Lands alongside Child of Alara or Genju of the Realm... :laugh:

Can pseudo protect Genju by Wastelanding or Cropping your own land to get the enchantment back.

[PirateKing]

So this duder is now in Modern, eh?
http://i.tcgplayer.com/9593_200w.jpg

I wonder what was wrong with just reprinting the original version? Oh well, now we have two.

Combos with Fist of Suns and Etched Monstrosity on turn 6.... ok?

This new one is just better though. Indestructible because land destruction isn't fun, but also, this adds 5 mana of any combination of colors, so it'll help you color fix your Cruel Ultimatum or cast Mind Over Matter.

[Cire]

I wonder what was wrong with just reprinting the original version? Oh well, now we have two.

Combos with Fist of Suns and Etched Monstrosity on turn 6.... ok?

Cascading Cataracts + Wind Zendikon + Umbral Mantle + Training Grounds can happen in modern :laugh::rolleyes:

[maharis]

Probably needs another win condition or something. Maybe a Stiflenought variant? Or maybe just Goyf because goyf is a retarded creature.


4 DRS
3 Snap
3 Tog

4 Push
4 Thoughtseize
4 Shadow
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Duress
2 Intuition
2 Unearth
2 Berserk

21 lands

Value deck with combo finish? I mean you can just exile all your fetches/cantrips to Tog to get the beatz in before you have a HAM turn. Actually, Painful Truths is probably good to load your hand up here, perhaps a 2-2 split with Ponder.

Edit: Wait, thoughtseize, fetches, truths, berserk... Death's Shadow backup plan? Street Wraith/Shadow/reanimate engine... needs more baking.

[Megadeus]

4 DRS
3 Snap
3 Tog

4 Push
4 Thoughtseize
4 Shadow
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Duress
2 Intuition
2 Unearth
2 Berserk

21 lands

Value deck with combo finish? I mean you can just exile all your fetches/cantrips to Tog to get the beatz in before you have a HAM turn. Actually, Painful Truths is probably good to load your hand up here, perhaps a 2-2 split with Ponder.

Edit: Wait, thoughtseize, fetches, truths, berserk... Death's Shadow backup plan? Street Wraith/Shadow/reanimate engine... needs more baking.

Cycle Street Wraith, Shadow it back cycle again. Oh the Value.

4 Deathrite
3 Shadow
3 Tog
2 Snappy
3 Street Wraith

4 Brainstorm
3 Shadow of the Grave
2 Berserk
2 Reanimate
4 Force
3 Careful Study
3 Fatal Push
4 Thoughtseize
1 Dismember

[Barook]

Disposses :2::b:
Sorcery
Name an artifact card. Search target player's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with that name and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

this new rainbow land combos with Boom//Bust
You could do it with fetchlands but this comes down a turn sooner. Nah we already had the darksteel land for that...

[maharis]

Cycle Street Wraith, Shadow it back cycle again. Oh the Value.

4 Deathrite
3 Shadow
3 Tog
2 Snappy
3 Street Wraith

4 Brainstorm
3 Shadow of the Grave
2 Berserk
2 Reanimate
4 Force
3 Careful Study
3 Fatal Push
4 Thoughtseize
1 Dismember

Yeah we're getting somewhere now. I gotta actually work like a chump but this will be a fun weekend project

[morgan_coke]

The new rainbow land, Darksteel Citadel, Flagstones of Trokair, Armageddon, is that something? Or just casual fodder?

[Dice_Box]

The new rainbow land, Darksteel Citadel, Flagstones of Trokair, Armageddon, is that something? Or just casual fodder?
Not enough space to add these and the Sol Lands you need while also running Citadel. Flagstones Stax though is a thing. There is a list on Hipsters of the Coast.

[Lemnear]

Disposses :2::b:
Sorcery
Name an artifact card. Search target player's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with that name and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

3cc Extraction for 1cc SDTs ... *facepalm*

[rufus]

....
It feels like anything where "Discard a card" is the *only* cost for an activated ability should maybe get a second look. Seismic Assault was a good call earlier in the thread

There's also multi-card discard like Psychic Overload (+ Temple Bell?) and Zombie Infestation. Also zany non-ability stuff like Dream Halls (though that doesn't need any extra breaking, really).

[Richard Cheese]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/gideonsintervention.jpg

Cool card, kind of a mashup between Nevermore and Runed Halo

INTERVENTION! INTERVENTION!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5vHhpaP9H8

[thefringthing]

Feels bad to have traded in LEDs a couple days before Shadow of the Grave gets spoiled. :/

[TsumiBand]

Feels bad to have traded in LEDs a couple days before Shadow of the Grave gets spoiled. :/

I dunno, it's kind of a non-starter right -- LED + Shadow = +1 mana -2 cards. Unless you're doing other weird tricky shit to get more value, like... I dunno, discarding a bunch of Obsessive Searches or just banking that everything you discarded with your Faithless Lootings over the same turn are coming back as well? But I don't think that LED is going to be the way that this card truly breaks.

This is coming from the dude who named-dropped Stoic Champion a few hours ago, but still

[Barook]

So the Chrono Trigger combo is even life in Standard:

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/gloriousend.jpg

[Megadeus]

I don't understand. So it's a red counterspell basically that forces you to win next turn?

[mistercakes]

Or a red semi time walk (they get an upkeep and to untap)

[MaximumC]

Or a red semi time walk (they get an upkeep and to untap)

I like it. It's a new version of Final Fortune that also can be used as a counterspell in a pinch. Sundial of the Infinite, anyone?

RED SCARE

4 Sundial of the Infinite
4 Final Fortune
2 Glorious End

4 Rite of Flame
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Faithless Looting
2 Heat Shimmer
2 Twinflame

4 Young Pyromancer
3 Dualcaster Mage
3 Bedlan Reveler

18 Mountains

Pssst: Sundial also makes your copies stick around after EOT. Twinflame on yer Young Peezy isn't terrible!

[Megadeus]

Isn't Final Fortune just better?

[MaximumC]

Isn't Final Fortune just better?

Not necessarily. Let's say you don't have a Sundial yet. If you need to go into desperation mode to get one more turn to find it, this new card gives you more information. That is, say you are starting a turn with FF in hand. If you need to play it and risk top decking the Dial, you have to do it on your turn without knowing what the opponent is packing. With Glorious Fall Into A Pit of Spikes, you can wait to see what the opponent does and counter it while getting the same desperation turn. More information, more disruptive.

[Megadeus]

Not necessarily. Let's say you don't have a Sundial yet. If you need to go into desperation mode to get one more turn to find it, this new card gives you more information. That is, say you are starting a turn with FF in hand. If you need to play it and risk top decking the Dial, you have to do it on your turn without knowing what the opponent is packing. With Glorious Fall Into A Pit of Spikes, you can wait to see what the opponent does and counter it while getting the same desperation turn. More information, more disruptive.
As someone who has been playing Giant Solifuge the past two weeks, this sounds really bad.

[PirateKing]

As someone who has been playing Giant Solifuge the past two weeks, this sounds really bad.

So many good quotes lately! :laugh:

I really like Glorious End. I don't think it's good, but I really like it. Would have been awesome if they priced it :r::r: though.

[MaximumC]

As someone who has been playing Giant Solifuge the past two weeks, this sounds really bad.

I didn't say it was a good card :)

[BenBleiweiss]

Isn't Final Fortune just better?

They are similar, but different enough in application that I'd draw more of a comparison between this and Time Warp/Time Stop. Regardless, some advantages this has over Final Fortune:

1) Single-Red mana cost makes it easier to splash
2) You can chain them one-after-another. So if you draw them in multiples, they can allow you to avoid losing the game by themselves (unlike Final Fortune, where casting a second one won't prevent the first one from killing you)
3) It's a much better anti-combo (anti-opponent) card than Final Fortune - you can end their turn mid-combo (them comboing off) and then go into your turn, in a pinch.
4) If your opponent is about to play that crippling spell (Ensnaring Bridge/Solitary Confinement/etc), you can cast this to stop them.

Can't wait to see the new Gideon.timewalk.dec brews!