Amonkhet, a new Plane for the next Block

[mistercakes]

Do you think this new b2 sorc will remove all the pressure to play abrupt decay?

[BenBleiweiss]

EDIT: NM, I need to RTFC ROFL

[rufus]

I like it. It's a new version of Final Fortune that also can be used as a counterspell in a pinch. Sundial of the Infinite, anyone?

RED SCARE
...
It also stifles.

Alas, I think any sane version is going to be at least UR for Day's Undoing, Snapcaster Mage (and maybe Stifle), or WR for can't lose gideon and something like Angel's Grace.

[rufus]

Do you think this new b2 sorc will remove all the pressure to play abrupt decay?

Categorically no. The B2 sorcery is a sideboard card at best.

[square_two]

So many good quotes lately! :laugh:

I really like Glorious End. I don't think it's good, but I really like it. Would have been awesome if they priced it :r::r: though.

Next time I hear someone complain about how they were just ONE turn away from winning, I'm going to try to convince them to consider running it.

[MaximumC]

Do you think this new b2 sorc will remove all the pressure to play abrupt decay?

absolutely sell now before the price drops

to me

[mistercakes]

This was intended for decks that don't normally need the green :) I'll still hold on to mine.

[Scott]

http://i.imgur.com/9piP3dP.jpg

[TsumiBand]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/131/343/200/283/636276795976398986.png

can't be attackd by flyers?!?!! get rekt delver and entreat, rofl

[square_two]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/131/343/200/283/636276795976398986.png

can't be attackd by flyers?!?!! get rekt delver and entreat, rofl

There's got to be a way I can assemble this + Dovescape in my Academy Rector nic fit deck.

[Dice_Box]

I would drop that in off a SnT.

[Gheizen64]

That red instant seems pretty interesting. It's a 3 mana counterspell /flusterstorm that need you to end the game the next turn.

The new red masticore is also pretty interesting.

http://i.imgur.com/Nn0sLG2.jpg

Possibly playable in moon stompy lists? Not sure what you'd want to fling with it, but it's a decent ability and 5R to reuse is doable.

Lots of good cards for red in this set it seems, maybe something will even see play in legacy, modern more probably though.

[Megadeus]

Inb4 Nic Fit, but all of the sacrifice stuff seems sweet. Wish it were like RG or just single red. Double Red probably eliminates it as a way to sacrifice veteran explorers.

[Gheizen64]

Nic fit really don't need a 4 mana sac spell. It need something viable at the 1-2 slot alongside therapy. I've been playing crack the earth, but it's super low impact a lot of times.

[rufus]

There's got to be a way I can assemble this + Dovescape in my Academy Rector nic fit deck.

Add Form of the Dragon for the triple threat.

[morgan_coke]

Nic fit really don't need a 4 mana sac spell. It need something viable at the 1-2 slot alongside therapy. I've been playing crack the earth, but it's super low impact a lot of times.

Why not Perilous Research or Angelic Purge? (Ok, only Perilous Research meets your requirements). Oh, Diabolic Intent works and is also in Black.

[kirkusjones]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/131/343/200/283/636276795976398986.png

can't be attackd by flyers?!?!! get rekt delver and entreat, rofl

Shai Hulud!

[morgan_coke]

http://i.imgur.com/9piP3dP.jpg

Well, that pretty much puts a nail in the coffin of a functionally same but new worded Astral Slide reprint, can't see them making the enchantment and a creature at the same CC with the same effect. Bummer. Guess we'll have to wait and see if we get anything to go with Drake Roost, Archfiend of Ifnir, and Curator of Mysteries (plus Shadow of the Grave of course). Looks like cycling is UB in this set.

[MaximumC]

Well, that pretty much puts a nail in the coffin of a functionally same but new worded Astral Slide reprint, can't see them making the enchantment and a creature at the same CC with the same effect. Bummer. Guess we'll have to wait and see if we get anything to go with Drake Roost, Archfiend of Ifnir, and Curator of Mysteries (plus Shadow of the Grave of course). Looks like cycling is UB in this set.

Eh, Im happy enough using Astral Slide with all those Enchantments with ETB effects. Spicy.

[Gheizen64]

Why not Perilous Research or Angelic Purge? (Ok, only Perilous Research meets your requirements). Oh, Diabolic Intent works and is also in Black.

The issue is that intent and a lot of other spells are super bad without a creature. Therapy isn't as bad, and when it's good, it's a 1 mana mind twist (which is still banned lol). Also, more spells means less creatures, but you still need a decently high creature count for your sac spells. Nic fit would really need a monumental card to make it playable nowadays. Like a thoughtseize with alt casting cost sac a creature. Hoping for a decent card in this expansion or the next that make use of -1-1 counters. The ones spoiled until now aren't good enough.

[MaximumC]

Shai Hulud!

I think this is a reference to certain spices flowing, but I never got past the first book, so...

Anyway, this seems like a spiffy new toy for Enduring Ideal decks, at least.

[Echelon]

Just a little note to put this "every card that lets you sacrifice something is a Nic Fit card" to rest.

Consider the order of things for a second. If a card requires you to have 3/4+ land before it lets you sacrifice Veteran Explorer you don't need to sacrifice Veteran Explorer anymore by the time you can cast and/or activate that card, making it utterly useless. Furthermore, the creatures Nic Fit looks for have to be green (it's a GSZ-deck after all) and therefor should get their conceptual CMC upped by 1 since you'll be looking to Zenith a 1-off more often than you'll cast it out of your hand and upped by 2 if you plan to GSZ it through a Daze (both of which are realistic scenarios). A 2 CMC green creature to kill off Explorer might seem cool but in practice you'll need 4 land before you can realistically resolve it, at which point you don't really care about the Explorer trigger anymore.

That's why I don't bother with Starved Rusalka either.

[bruizar]

The issue is that intent and a lot of other spells are super bad without a creature. Therapy isn't as bad, and when it's good, it's a 1 mana mind twist (which is still banned lol). Also, more spells means less creatures, but you still need a decently high creature count for your sac spells. Nic fit would really need a monumental card to make it playable nowadays. Like a thoughtseize with alt casting cost sac a creature. Hoping for a decent card in this expansion or the next that make use of -1-1 counters. The ones spoiled until now aren't good enough.

Who plays intent without a dryad arbor in his nicfit list though? Intent is crazy good as it allows the explorer to ramp into a hymn to tourach that you can tutor up with it.

[Nonex]

I played lots of Survival with Veteran Explorers back in the day. Greater Gargadon was by far the best card I could pair them with.

[AznSeal]

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/65cvm4/akh_bone_picker/?st=J1HY1U3K&sh=80f5c6c5

Black delver

[Richard Cheese]

I think this is a reference to certain spices flowing, but I never got past the first book, so...

Anyway, this seems like a spiffy new toy for Enduring Ideal decks, at least.

Shai-Hulud are in the first book, it's just the natives' name for the sandworms. Definitely worth another read, IMO.


https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/65cvm4/akh_bone_picker/?st=J1HY1U3K&sh=80f5c6c5

Black delver

Finally a reason to break out my Blood Pets!

[danyul]

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/65cvm4/akh_bone_picker/?st=J1HY1U3K&sh=80f5c6c5

Black delver

Picture for the lazy.

I really like this card.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_ZPQDOv8TKr.png

[morgan_coke]

Is it just me, or does Evolving Wilds just continually get the best art?

[morgan_coke]

Looking through the spoiler now.. yeah, it's official, Cycling is straight up Blue/Black this time. There's a much worse version of Lightning Rift in black that drains your opponent for 2 and costs 3 to cast, 1 to activate. There's also a black 1 drop that puts -1/-1 counters on creatures when you cycle. And a white Disenchant for 3 that exiles and cycles for 2. That is an amazing card and will see maindeck play in Legacy.

[Cire]

Black Delver plus . . . Blood Pet/Wild Cantor? :eyebrow:

Edit:

Vizier of Remedies 1W
Creature - Human Cleric
If one or more -1/-1 counters would be put on a creature you control, that many -1/-1 counters minus one are put on it instead.
"You'll need all your strength for the trials to come."
2/1

Vizier of Remedies is non-legendary Melira 5-8 in any deck that wanted to run more of her for the persist. More interestingly, Vizier plus Devoted Druid is infinite mana as early as T3.

[morgan_coke]

Black Delver plus . . . Blood Pet/Wild Cantor? :eyebrow:

Edit:

Vizier of Remedies 1W
Creature - Human Cleric
If one or more -1/-1 counters would be put on a creature you control, that many -1/-1 counters minus one are put on it instead.
"You'll need all your strength for the trials to come."
2/1

Vizier of Remedies is non-legendary Melira 5-8 in any deck that wanted to run more of her for the persist. More interestingly, Vizier plus Devoted Druid is infinite mana as early as T3.

I think you cast the Black delver after you Snuff Out or Fatal Push one of their guys.

[Barook]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_ZPQDOv8TKr.png
I was about to say "Black Delver" as well, but on second thought, it isn't even that good. Being immune to AD is a plus, though.

You still need to kill a creature to make it cheap, so even if you kill the opposing Delver/DRS/Hierarch/Mom, you could play it T2 the earliest. If your opponent only has few/no creatures, you're SoL.

And I don't think it's worth any card disadvantage nonsense.

Edit:
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_PewIpCQcSj.png

This one is interesting - the card referenced in the text doesn't exist yet. Might be a setup, just like Eye of Ugin:
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_mFlIUMz6uu.png

[rufus]

...

Vizier of Remedies 1W
Creature - Human Cleric
If one or more -1/-1 counters would be put on a creature you control, that many -1/-1 counters minus one are put on it instead.
"You'll need all your strength for the trials to come."
2/1

How does that interact with Devoted Druid or Winding Constrictor?

[Jander78]

How does that interact with Devoted Druid or Winding Constrictor?
Looks like a turn 3 infinite mana combo with Devoted Druid.

Winding Constrictor would cancel it out.

[rufus]

...

Winding Constrictor would cancel it out.

Isn't it order dependent if it's initially one -1/-1 counter?

[Claymore]

I think you apply both replacement effects in the order you want. Either way, Vizier -1 (0) then Snake +1 (1) or vice versa results in one counter.

Unless something in the rules comes out that if you hit zero counters then the effect fizzles. Then the order has to be snake vizier, and Devoted Druid doesn't work.

[bruizar]

Something like this is what I would try if I would go for a cycling deck.


Enablers 8
4 Oath of Ghouls
3 Drake Haven
2 Astral Slide

Creatures 12
4 Street Wraith
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Vendillion Clique
3 Ruthless Sniper

Removal 4
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Swords to Plowshares

Selection 4
4 Brainstorm

Permission 6
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

Discard 6
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Collective Brutality
39

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Fetid Pools
1 Irrigated Farmland
2 Barren Moor
2 Remote Isle
22

[Jander78]

Devoted Druid doesn't work.
Hmm, it seems cut and dry, but I'm not a rules expert. Can you point out why this doesn't work?

[TsumiBand]

Bone Picker seems pretty assy you guys, how is it Black Delver if it's never coming down turn 1 for :b: without terribad things happening to your tempo. I think it'll be interesting in Limited but that's probably it

[morgan_coke]

@TsumiBad - I think the point of Bone Picker is more of a midgame creature, when you can cast it for 1 after you kill something your opponent controls or after they kill one of yours on your turn. That's why Deathtouch is important on it, it can trade with a 'Goyf or something if it needs to.

@Bruizar - that's a terrible list. For god's sake man, you don't even have Shadow of the Grave in there. I'll post a decent cycling list sometime, probably next week since I just found out I have to travel for work this weekend. On Easter. This is one of those times being salaried/no overtime really sucks.

[TsumiBand]

I think you apply both replacement effects in the order you want. Either way, Vizier -1 (0) then Snake +1 (1) or vice versa results in one counter.

Unless something in the rules comes out that if you hit zero counters then the effect fizzles. Then the order has to be snake vizier, and Devoted Druid doesn't work.

I feel like this is one of those times where the replacement effect is making this more or less like a cost you can't pay and therefore it doesn't end up doing anything.

There's a specific thing I'm thinking of that IIRC used to work but doesn't anymore - something about Leyline of the Void and that creature that says "put an exiled card to its owner's graveyard: get +2/+2 and trample" and so you used to be able to loop paying the cost with a single card and make an arbitrarily large creature. But I think they changed the rules regarding replacement effects in paying costs to keep this from working? Or maybe they changed a different subtlety of the rules and I've just forgotten. Suddenly I'm filled with doubt.

At any rate it's usually a bad idea to guess at interactions for cards that haven't come out so maybe it's best to wait until the prerelease and see if there's anything clarifying.

[Scott]

Bone Picker seems pretty assy you guys, how is it Black Delver if it's never coming down turn 1 for :b: without terribad things happening to your tempo. I think it'll be interesting in Limited but that's probably it

Maybe I want to fill my black delver bird deck with Walking Ballistas and Shifting Walls so I feel, if even for just a moment, like WotC printed a black delver.

[bruizar]

@TsumiBad - I think the point of Bone Picker is more of a midgame creature, when you can cast it for 1 after you kill something your opponent controls or after they kill one of yours on your turn. That's why Deathtouch is important on it, it can trade with a 'Goyf or something if it needs to.

@Bruizar - that's a terrible list. For god's sake man, you don't even have Shadow of the Grave in there. I'll post a decent cycling list sometime, probably next week since I just found out I have to travel for work this weekend. On Easter. This is one of those times being salaried/no overtime really sucks.

lol, I'm sure it's terrible. You probably missed a lot of the interactions in the list.
Drake Haven and Ruthless Sniper work on discard, so Collective Brutality and Faerie Macabre trigger it as well. Oath of Ghouls turns Street Wraith into a dark confidant, except you get cycling triggers as well. Faerie Macabre blocks delver and ensures oath of ghouls is active. It's also pretty nice to have 4 maindeck graveyard removal cards that you can recur in a world of reanimator decks.

Shadow of the Grave is more of a combo card if you ask me, although I'm sure you can play it like a value glimpse as well. When you do find the time to show us a list, please keep fluctuator out of it. :) Shadow of the Grave could either be really good, or just another Treasure Hunt

[morgan_coke]

lol, I'm sure it's terrible. You probably missed a lot of the interactions in the list.
Drake Haven and Ruthless Sniper work on discard, so Collective Brutality and Faerie Macabre trigger it as well. Oath of Ghouls turns Street Wraith into a dark confidant, except you get cycling triggers as well. Faerie Macabre blocks delver and ensures oath of ghouls is active. It's also pretty nice to have 4 maindeck graveyard removal cards that you can recur in a world of reanimator decks.

Shadow of the Grave is more of a combo card if you ask me, although I'm sure you can play it like a value glimpse as well. When you do find the time to show us a list, please keep fluctuator out of it. :) Shadow of the Grave could either be really good, or just another Treasure Hunt

Yes, I noticed all those interactions. They're just not very good interactions for the most part.

[bruizar]

Yes, I noticed all those interactions. They're just not very good interactions for the most part.

What did you have in mind for Shadow of the Grave though?

The only way I see Shadow of the Grave working is by chaining Careful Studies, Faithless Lootings and Breakthroughs into Shadow of the Grave, at which point you better fucking resolve Shadow of the Grave or it's lights out..

[morgan_coke]

What did you have in mind for Shadow of the Grave though?

The only way I see Shadow of the Grave working is by chaining Careful Studies, Faithless Lootings and Breakthroughs into Shadow of the Grave, at which point you better fucking resolve Shadow of the Grave or it's lights out..

SotG is used midgame to refill your hand. Cycle, cycle, cycle, draw 3. Pretty much the same way Loam was used, except now it works at instant speed, and doesn't require your deck construction to be warped to accommodate it.

EDIT: the veiled serpent thingy with the reduced CC on instants/sorcieries in the yard probably deserves a spot too, given that you can just cycle some away in order to make it castable.

[Claymore]

Hmm, it seems cut and dry, but I'm not a rules expert. Can you point out why this doesn't work?

I was stating it more as a hypothetical, where the combo wouldn't work if the rules people came out and said that 'if you put 0 counters on something, it didn't happen'.

It seems like it should work, but we'll have to see what Wizards or judges say. I know Melira and Druid don't work, because Melira prevents you from paying the cost.

[Ronald Deuce]

Speaking of Naturalize clones:

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/forsakethewordly.jpg

[rufus]

...
There's a specific thing I'm thinking of that IIRC used to work but doesn't anymore - something about Leyline of the Void and that creature that says "put an exiled card to its owner's graveyard: get +2/+2 and trample" and so you used to be able to loop paying the cost with a single card and make an arbitrarily large creature. But I think they changed the rules regarding replacement effects in paying costs to keep this from working? Or maybe they changed a different subtlety of the rules and I've just forgotten. Suddenly I'm filled with doubt.
...

Void Maw and Yawgmoth's Will is the classic. They changed it so that if leaving exile gets replaced by going to exile, it's a new object despite staying in the same zone.

[Cire]

Pretty sure Vizier of Remedies + Devoted Druid does work, but even so - is that good for anything? How about this silly list (it's basically Maverick minus SFM and Tax effects plus an infinite mana combo)

4 Vizier of Remedies
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
X GSZ findable Infinite mana wins
X non-GSZ findable Infinite mana wins
2 Devoted Druid
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Worldly Tutor
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforst
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas

[Ronald Deuce]

Ugh; AKH is starting to look like "Hipster Haircuts: the Set."

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/compulsoryrest.jpg
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/oashracultivator.jpg
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/stingingshot.jpg

[TsumiBand]

Void Maw and Yawgmoth's Will is the classic. They changed it so that if leaving exile gets replaced by going to exile, it's a new object despite staying in the same zone.

Ehh shit, that's what it was.

I mean, it's been established that Melira doesn't work with Devoted Druid, but that's a "can't" effect as opposed to a replacement effect. I think after googling a little bit, this actually does work, so Devoted Druid + that white card I can't scroll up to see anymore = bunches of mana, probably.

[Richard Cheese]

Bone Picker seems pretty assy you guys, how is it Black Delver if it's never coming down turn 1 for :b: without terribad things happening to your tempo. I think it'll be interesting in Limited but that's probably it

I think you mean "sassy". I agree it's nowhere near as good or easy to abuse as Delver, but it's still relatively easy to abuse with all the cheap removal in this format and things like Therapy around. It dodges Decay and maybe Counterbalance, which seems pretty alright. It probably still won't see play in this format because there just isn't a deck that wants this kind of creature that isn't already running Delver, but I don't think it's trash.

[rufus]

Pretty sure Vizier of Remedies + Devoted Druid does work, but even so - is that good for anything? How about this silly list (it's basically Maverick minus SFM and Tax effects plus an infinite mana combo)...


Infinite mana combos are typically bad because they're 3-card combos. I doubt this one would be much different.

[danyul]

I think you mean "sassy". I agree it's nowhere near as good or easy to abuse as Delver, but it's still relatively easy to abuse with all the cheap removal in this format and things like Therapy around. It dodges Decay and maybe Counterbalance, which seems pretty alright. It probably still won't see play in this format because there just isn't a deck that wants this kind of creature that isn't already running Delver, but I don't think it's trash.

Call me crazy, but I'd run 2x alongside any deck that also uses Baleful Strix.

You can catch me losing to scrubs with 2x Black Delver in my list later this month.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Ugh; AKH is starting to look like "Hipster Haircuts: the Set."

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/compulsoryrest.jpg
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/oashracultivator.jpg
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/stingingshot.jpg

I'm also very sick of this. This is my least favorite set ever in terms of artwork. It emphasizes all the bad trends in magic art with CGI and things that look strangely smooth like the new Nissa.

[Jander78]

I was stating it more as a hypothetical, where the combo wouldn't work if the rules people came out and said that 'if you put 0 counters on something, it didn't happen'.

It seems like it should work, but we'll have to see what Wizards or judges say. I know Melira and Druid don't work, because Melira prevents you from paying the cost.
Ahh, okay. I agree 100%. I'm sure WoTC will find a way to "fix" this with a slight rules update.

Seems like it might not be a bad alt for 12-Post to generate mana, although pretty volatile.

[LOLWut]

I'm also very sick of this. This is my least favorite set ever in terms of artwork. It emphasizes all the bad trends in magic art.

I already feel like a manchild for playing pretend wizards, without me having to summon power rangers instead of real art.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/131/178/636270695386256051.png

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/101.jpg

[Begle1]

I'm also very sick of this. This is my least favorite set ever in terms of artwork. It emphasizes all the bad trends in magic art.

I agree.

I thought Theros was a huge missed opportunity by not having any "ancient Greek"-influenced art. I think most Disney's do okay at taking cues from art of the trope world they're playing around in. Lion King had some abstract-looking African backgrounds, for instance, and Hercules had some cool animated pottery dancing around and put "curly Greek swirls" all over everything.

But when Magic goes from trope world to trope world, they keep the art style exactly the same. They want things "to look like Magic cards", but unfortunately all that has meant recently is generic, albeit "high-quality", illustration. There are a few good art pieces, but they're good in spite of the art direction, which leaves very little space for artistic interpretation.

[Poron]

Speaking of Naturalize clones:

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/forsakethewordly.jpg

this is good.

Wear/Tear has become 3 mana spell with the last rule change and this cycles..

it doesn't fuse though

[morgan_coke]

this is good.

Wear/Tear has become 3 mana spell with the last rule change and this cycles..

it doesn't fuse though

Also Exiles instead of destroys.

[bruizar]

CAMELS
https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/img/840429415a16467bb8ff1555eb1d3df9/cards/Arabian_Nights/camel.jpghttp://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_vv8bB3rUcB.png
We went from 0/1 bands to 3/5... Cool camel I guess, but a 3/5 at 5 CC doesn't reflect a Camel. Heck, even Kaladesh had a 0/4 Dromedary..

DESERTS
https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/img/840429415a16467bb8ff1555eb1d3df9/cards/Arabian_Nights/desert.jpg
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_bN57fG5DrO.pnghttp://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_fwuUB3wPMQ.pnghttp://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_g9OCe2ngWl.pnghttp://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_wTWlfELA3d.png
I like this cycle, although I hate the art. I would have liked to see a card like this at rare or mythic:
Fata Morgana
Land - Desert
When Fata Morgana comes into play, choose a creature with power less than or equal to 1.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1: Fata Morgana becomes a copy of the chosen creature until end of turn. If Fata Morgana becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it.
x/x
This would have made Desert Nomads relevant tech against this land too!

Also, where's the Oasis reprint with its type changed to Land - Desert the same way time spiral Desert has? This should be a desert, no?:
https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/img/840429415a16467bb8ff1555eb1d3df9/cards/Arabian_Nights/oasis.jpghttps://www.magiccardmarket.eu/img/55d80b947f01e3e751397bf83597565c/cards/Time_Spiral/desert.jpg

DESERT INTERACTION
https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/img/840429415a16467bb8ff1555eb1d3df9/cards/Arabian_Nights/desert_nomads.jpghttp://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_aaKD4j9lGL.png
Why aren't there more desert-matters cards??? I love the monitor but why does it have to be an unplayable card cycling at 3G???? You would think the 3G premium is because you can create a 2/2 Zombie from Cradle of the Accursed for 3 mana during combat, but no that card can only be activated as a sorcery. Same for Grasping Dunes.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Your thoughts on the monitor are the worst things about limited-first design in my opinion. The average card has to be a piece of shit for limited to play how they'd like so it's rare for a new mechanic to be relevant in modern let alone eternal formats. There is just so much wasted effort put into so many worthless cards and mechanics.

[Gheizen64]

Monitor is like a better krosan tusker which was borderline playable ages ago.

3G ramp draw a card uncounterable instant is nowhere "terrible" tier.

[sco0ter]

Why are many cards worded as: "Whenever you cycle or discard a card, ..."?

Isn't the "cycle" obsolete here, because it implies "discard"?

Why not simply "Whenever you discard a card, ..."?

[UnderwaterGuy]

If I remember correctly, Maro said they'll be doing more with deserts in the next set. I'm cautiously optimistic and it's not a wasted mechanic yet.

The monitor is pretty good as a second Krosan Tusker. It's playable outside of Legacy at least.

[Megadeus]

Why are many cards worded as: "Whenever you cycle or discard a card, ..."?

Isn't the "cycle" obsolete here, because it implies "discard"?

Why not simply "Whenever you discard a card, ..."?

Their excuse is that new players don't understand cycling, even though the whole reason for fucking reminder text is to REMIND players what cycling is. So instead they use these poorly worded cards that instead confuse everyone

[rufus]

The power level of the set seems pretty high. Might just be my perception colored by the different spoiler structure though.

[Dice_Box]

The power level of the set seems pretty high. Might just be my perception colored by the different spoiler structure though.
At first glance the best card is Red, I like that if nothing else.

[Barook]

So apparently they had data on PT Kaladesh when doing the finishing touches to Amonkhet, hence the increased amount of artifact hate in the set and even some usable GY hate.

Looks like they've shortened the development time, for better or worse? :eyebrow:

[rufus]

At first glance the best card is Red, I like that if nothing else.

The most novel one certainly is. Since we have the full spoiler, it's time to make lists of interesting cards.

Anointed Procession - There are certainly bad combos that use this card. Are there any good ones?
Cast Out - A strong card, but answers want to be low casting cost and 4 is probably too much in legacy.
Devoted Crop Mate - Probably unplayable, but Death and Taxes can cast this guy and runs a lot of creatures it could reanimate.
Gideon of the Trials - Can't lose. Probably can't win either.
Gideon's Intervention - Another card with lots of utility potential as an answer, but a huge CC.
Vizier of Deferment - probably just a bad flickerwhisp, but flash matters.
Vizier of Remedies - potential combo piece.
As Foretold - Cheating mana costs always has potential. Probably not good enough though.
Cryptic Serpent - If you can get it for UU reliably, it's not bad.
Pull from Tomorrow - Draw X powerful.
Vizier of Tumbling Sands - Interesting as a bad - but only marginally bad - untap cantrip.
Dispossess - Sideboard material
Dread Wanderer - Low to the ground zombie beater with a recursion ability.
Liliana, Death's Mystery - probably not strong enough for the cost, but can clearly run away with a game
Plague Belcher - Probably not viable, but big and evasive for 3 isn't terrible.
Scarab Feast - Potential Sideboard card, but there are better options.
Shadow of the Grave - Potential for heavy card advantage for 1B.
Blazing Volley - The days of hordes of x/1 creatures are behind us, but trading 1-for-1 is OK, and there is upside here.
Glorious End - Time Stop is a strong effect - stifle, time walk, or counterspell.
Harsh Mentor - Punishing fetchlands can do a lot of damage.
Sweltering Suns - Sweepers are strong cards, this looks weaker than some of the other options at 3cc.
Channeler Initiate - A 3/4 Mana Dork for 2 seems OK. Probably won't end up being that though. Also people don't play Werebear anymore.
Harvest Season - Probably not good enough, but it has a significant performance ceiling.
Manglehorn - CC is probably too high for legacy, but it's pretty hateful.
Prowling Serpopard - 4/3 uncounterable for 3... not quite as good as Great Sable Stag but what is?
Sandwurm Convergence - Potential combo finisher.. also a funny thing to drop vs show and tell in a world full of Griselbrand and Emrakul.
Vizier of the Menagerie - Could work as a bad combo piece.
Hapatra, Vizier of Poisions - Token production is powerful. Probably not good enough?
Nissa, Steward of Elements - Probably just a bad version of Sylvan Library, but there's definitely upside.
Wayward Servant - Zombie mass production is possible
Dusk // Dawn - Weak wrath effect with upside
Heaven // Earth - Double sweeper
Monument Cycle (except blue) - Potential combo pieces
Cycling duals - probably not good enough for legacy, but...
Island - Clearly OP.

...

How does Soul-Scar Mage interact with protection effects?

Do we expect +1/+1 - -1/-1 counter cancellation to lead to confusion?

[Ronald Deuce]

Your thoughts on the monitor are the worst things about limited-first design in my opinion. The average card has to be a piece of shit for limited to play how they'd like so it's rare for a new mechanic to be relevant in modern let alone eternal formats. There is just so much wasted effort put into so many worthless cards and mechanics.

This. They're so worried that they'll make a patently busted card that they'll throw all the viable mechanics under the bus for jank-ass horseshit, yet they won't test their pet-project rares (or the jank) for even the most cursorily important synergies.

Like, what the fuck is Ripple? Devour? Level Up? Brick counters?

[Aggro_zombies]

Ahh, okay. I agree 100%. I'm sure WoTC will find a way to "fix" this with a slight rules update.

Seems like it might not be a bad alt for 12-Post to generate mana, although pretty volatile.
Melira specifically prevents the act of placing counters. It's like how Angel of Jubilation prevents you from casting Fling or activating Birthing Pod. You effectively replace "Add a -1/-1 counter" in the cost with "Add {null}" and the game won't let you do that.

This card doesn't do that, it just modifies the number of counters. You effectively replace "Add a -1/-1 counter" with "Add zero -1/-1 counters", which should still work.

[Jander78]

Melira specifically prevents the act of placing counters. It's like how Angel of Jubilation prevents you from casting Fling or activating Birthing Pod. You effectively replace "Add a -1/-1 counter" in the cost with "Add {null}" and the game won't let you do that.

This card doesn't do that, it just modifies the number of counters. You effectively replace "Add a -1/-1 counter" with "Add zero -1/-1 counters", which should still work.
I think we're all in agreement here. This works according to the current rules.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think we're all in agreement here. This works according to the current rules.
Oh, right, reading comprehension FTW.

RE: Complete Set: Not bad. I'm not a huge fan of the Aftermath cards, but I suspect that mechanic will be Sir Not Appearing In This Film for the next set, so that's fine.

[rufus]

... I'm not a huge fan of the Aftermath cards ...

Just dislike for the low power level, the terrible graphic design or something else?

[Aggro_zombies]

Just dislike for the low power level, the terrible graphic design or something else?
All of the above.

1) They're ugly visually. In a tournament environment, especially a prerelease, people tilting their heads or spinning a card in hand will be dead giveaway that they have an aftermath spell and are reading the back half of it.

2) They're super weak. This isn't flashback, where you get the same effect twice. The second half is basically a fresh card, so why do they charge a premium on both ends? The U/G one is a really egregious example of this, especially considering there's an instant "draw two" in the set at four mana already.

3) There's a lot of uninspired designs. I think treating this mechanic similarly to Fuse would have served them well, in the sense that Fuse spells are basically three cards in one: each half, plus the two halves together. The most satisfying Fuse cards are the ones where each of the three cards makes sense - that is, the two halves fused feel like an organic card and not just two random effects stapled together. My golden example of this is Beck / Call; the only Fuse card that really seems poorly done is Protect / Serve. This is in contrast to regular split cards, where you can have unlinked cards because you're only ever casting one half at a time and the strength of the mechanic is its flexibility. It doesn't matter if the whole split card tells any kind of story, since the game play of the card doesn't reinforce a linkage between the components in players' minds.

In the case of Aftermath cards, the second half of the card is at least notionally dependent on the first half, since the usual way to get access to the back half is to cast the front half. That suggests that the two halves should be more strongly linked on a mechanical level, maybe not to the level of Fuse spells, but somewhere close. Instead, there are relatively few Aftermath cards that have any kind of narrative through line. Most of them are just two color-specific effects stapled together and with the mana cost upped 25-75% because otherwise you'd get too much value or something, and the association comes from the play on words in the name. I'm thinking here of totally disjointed spells like Cut / Ribbons or Heaven / Earth; it doesn't help that those two are some of the strongest Aftermath cards and thus the ones most likely to be associated with the mechanic in the long run because they'll be highly visible. Even in cases where the effects are linked, like Commit / Memory, the mana investment is so intense you're unlikely to get both halves off in a single turn, which weakens the story the card is trying to tell.

The mechanic just feels like kind of a letdown.

[Ronald Deuce]

The original split cards were yucky visually and often overcosted. These new ones are worse on both fronts.

[EDIT: you'd think they would've realized that needing cards with little or no graveyard synergy to be in the graveyard to use them at all would make reducing the cards' costs a better plan than INCREASING them.]

[rufus]

...
3) There's a lot of uninspired designs. I think treating this mechanic similarly to Fuse would have served them well, in the sense that Fuse spells are basically three cards in one: each half, plus the two halves together. ...

I think a lot of the cards do fit together well, but got wrecked by someone turning the back half of instants into sorceries and adding 2 to the mana cost. It's like they were avoiding people playing combat tricks from the graveyard at all costs. I suspect the cards were much stronger, and then got turned to turds to make them limited-friendly. (They also gave the fuse cards a whack with that nerf-bat, so it's plausible that those are considered a mistake now.)

[bruizar]

I do think Commit//Memory is sort of nice. It lets you counter a spell or remove a permanent in response to a fetch land, and Torrential Gearhulk gets to play an EOT Timetwister for free. Perhaps not at the legacy power level, but def nice. As for the design issues you pointed out -> those are not exclusive to the aftermath cards unfortunately. It's been like this for years :/

[Aggro_zombies]

I think a lot of the cards do fit together well, but got wrecked by someone turning the back half of instants into sorceries and adding 2 to the mana cost. It's like they were avoiding people playing combat tricks from the graveyard at all costs. I suspect the cards were much stronger, and then got turned to turds to make them limited-friendly. (They also gave the fuse cards a whack with that nerf-bat, so it's plausible that those are considered a mistake now.)
One of the articles on the Mothership during previews - I forget which one - said the logic behind having two different card types on some of the Aftermath cards was to buff Delirium in Standard. So there's that.

Combat tricks with cheap flashback costs have historically been huge gotchas. They're hard to play around even when you know they're coming because the opportunity cost of leaving the mana open is so low, and if you don't know they're coming - because you forgot, because your opponent discarded the card instead of casting it and didn't announce what they binned, because they've collapsed their graveyard to obscure its contents, etc. - then they feel super bad when you get hit with one. It kind of reminds of playing BNG-THS-THS Limited against a GW opponent. There were so many good combat tricks at two mana that it got to the point where you just had to cross your fingers and go for it if they had :g::w: up and cards in hand because you couldn't predict what they had and the variety was such that you couldn't play around all of them.

Anyway: cards you cast out of the graveyard have a premium attached to them because WotC is still feeling the burn of Buyback - that is, cards that are built-in X-for-1s need to be taxed heavily to avoid turning into crushing card advantage juggernauts. They ruined Cipher for basically that reason, and they ruined a lot of these cards for that reason too. It's a bummer, but it's how things work.

[Di]

I do think Commit//Memory is sort of nice. It lets you counter a spell or remove a permanent in response to a fetch land, and Torrential Gearhulk gets to play an EOT Timetwister for free. Perhaps not at the legacy power level, but def nice. As for the design issues you pointed out -> those are not exclusive to the aftermath cards unfortunately. It's been like this for years :/

Does that actually work with Torrential Gearhulk? I thought they changed the split card rules to not pull off this sort of thing anymore, especially considering Memory is a sorcery.

[bruizar]

Does that actually work with Torrential Gearhulk? I thought they changed the split card rules to not pull off this sort of thing anymore, especially considering Memory is a sorcery.

I'm fairly sure this should work. They only changed the converted mana cost but you can still choose either the instant or the sorcery part of the card because all T.Gearhulk checks is if the card is an instant.

[Ronald Deuce]

As for the design issues you pointed out -> those are not exclusive to the aftermath cards unfortunately. It's been like this for years :/

I'm right with you there. That's the thing that bothers me; it'd be nice to see more cards that both showcased new mechanics/design space and also could see play in other formats than Standard or Limited, rather than just cards that fall into one category or the other. This is a mistake Wizards has made consistently.

[Aggro_zombies]

They say they only test for Standard and Limited due to those being the highest volume formats and also the ones that are easiest to test for. Generally, the majority of cards that make the jump out of Standard are the ones that were power-level mistakes. It's really rare that you get cards like Ad Nauseam, that do basically nothing in Standard but are linchpins of decks in larger formats, and IIRC the last time they admitted to setting out to make a card for Legacy that went through a Standard-legal set, we got Mental Misstep.

[bruizar]

I'm right with you there. That's the thing that bothers me; it'd be nice to see more cards that both showcased new mechanics/design space and also could see play in other formats than Standard or Limited, rather than just cards that fall into one category or the other. This is a mistake Wizards has made consistently.

I've been working on a card game myself for a long while now and from that experience I can tell you magic is never gonna go back to how it was. They don't use real world references the way they used to anymore and that's a big reason why AN/AQ/LG/DK felt magical.

[Barook]

They say they only test for Standard and Limited due to those being the highest volume formats and also the ones that are easiest to test for. Generally, the majority of cards that make the jump out of Standard are the ones that were power-level mistakes. It's really rare that you get cards like Ad Nauseam, that do basically nothing in Standard but are linchpins of decks in larger formats, and IIRC the last time they admitted to setting out to make a card for Legacy that went through a Standard-legal set, we got Mental Misstep.
Actually, Abrupt Decay designed to help Legacy with Counterbalance.

[TsumiBand]

One of the articles on the Mothership during previews - I forget which one - said the logic behind having two different card types on some of the Aftermath cards was to buff Delirium in Standard. So there's that.

I like how converted mana costs needed to change when split cards are off-stack but multiple conflicting card types is fine and all part of the plan. "Oh it's an Instantsorcery, that makes all the sense"

[Claymore]

How does Soul-Scar Mage interact with protection effects?

As far as I know, Protection is a replacement effect. Soul-Scar is also a replacement, so the controller of the card that would be effected chooses the order of the effects to apply. They'll apply protection first, so no damage is remaining for the soul-scar mage to convert.

[joven]

As far as I know, Protection is a replacement effect. Soul-Scar is also a replacement, so the controller of the card that would be effected chooses the order of the effects to apply. They'll apply protection first, so no damage is remaining for the soul-scar mage to convert.

As far as I know Protection was changed long ago to just preventing the damage. And as far as I understand it Damage Prevention happens before damage can be replaced.
So, same result I guess, unless you do something so that damage can't be prevented.

[MaximumC]

I like how converted mana costs needed to change when split cards are off-stack but multiple conflicting card types is fine and all part of the plan. "Oh it's an Instantsorcery, that makes all the sense"

We have land creatures, land artifacts, and artifact creatures. Why is an instant sorcery so divergent?

[morgan_coke]

We have land creatures, land artifacts, and artifact creatures. Why is an instant sorcery so divergent?

Because it's new. Duh.

[Lemnear]

Actually, Abrupt Decay designed to help Legacy with Counterbalance.

Yeah, it just failed to do so. All it and DRS did was tinting the whole format BGx vs Miracles

[Ronald Deuce]

We have land creatures, land artifacts, and artifact creatures. Why is an instant sorcery so divergent?

I think the big difference is that there's going to be confusion over whether a spell is both a Sorcery and an Instant at the same time, or whether it's one or the other when it's on the stack. It's similar to the problem with converted mana costs. I'm not sure how often this will be a problem realistically (needing to be in the graveyard is likely to deter confusion over which half people are allowed to cast), but the big difference between permanents with multiple types and split cards with different types is that there's less confusion over when a permanent is its card types, even for permanents that can "change type" (e.g., Mishra's Factory).

[rufus]

I think the big difference is that there's going to be confusion over whether a spell is both a Sorcery and an Instant at the same time, or whether it's one or the other when it's on the stack. It's similar to the problem with converted mana costs. I'm not sure how often this will be a problem realistically (needing to be in the graveyard is likely to deter confusion over which half people are allowed to cast)...

We do have Invasive Surgery in standard which almost seems designed to cause confusion with these instant//sorcery split cards since it brings up name and type issues. I don't think there are any Guile effects though.

[BenBleiweiss]

Looking through the spoiler now.. yeah, it's official, Cycling is straight up Blue/Black this time. There's a much worse version of Lightning Rift in black that drains your opponent for 2 and costs 3 to cast, 1 to activate. There's also a black 1 drop that puts -1/-1 counters on creatures when you cycle. And a white Disenchant for 3 that exiles and cycles for 2. That is an amazing card and will see maindeck play in Legacy.

Is it much worse? I actually think it's one of the better cards in the set (not for Legacy, but for Standard and potentially Modern). If it just triggered on cycling, I'd be right there with you. However, since it triggers on cycling OR discard, I think it could be part of some sort of engine deck. Again - not advocating this for Legacy, but there's starting to be a critical mass of effects that could make for a deck in Modern. Seismic Assault, Faith of the Devoted, Molten Vortex + Shadow of the Grave.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_dcXyW81Veq.png

[Barook]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_dcXyW81Veq.png
Rules question:

If you discard with Skirge Familiar to generate mana, you get it instantly (due to being a mana ability) while the trigger is put on the stack and then you can use the mana to pay for the trigger of Faith of the Devoted, right?

[rufus]

If you discard with Skirge Familiar to generate mana, you get it instantly (due to being a mana ability) while the trigger is put on the stack and then you can use the mana to pay for the trigger of Faith of the Devoted, right?

Yes. (The mana ability resolves before triggers do. I'm not sure "instantly" is the best way to describe that considering the "instant" card type is a thing.)

[TsumiBand]

We have land creatures, land artifacts, and artifact creatures. Why is an instant sorcery so divergent?

Forgetting that for 99% of cases an "Instant Sorcery" is mechanically overloaded and doesn't actually make it fundamentally different from an Instant? It's just stupid from the standpoint that split cards used to always just be two spells on one card - like I don't know how combining mana costs as a total converted mana cost makes sense when individual elements of both cards are still considered individually.

Like, the only reason we're not combining their card types into a weird single-word card type is because apparently "instant and sorcery" is easier to understand than "cmc 2 and 6", I just think it's silly that words aren't confusing in this regard but numbers are totally flummoxing people.

[Claymore]

Yeah I don't get split cards in general, stupid mechanic that bends the rules. Problem with Gearhulk and other types of effects is that you target the 'instant' half of the card, but play the 'sorcery' half. Or Invasive surgery that targets the 'instant' card half, and successfully resolves because the inactive aftermath portion is a sorcery.

[joven]

Yeah I don't get split cards in general, stupid mechanic that bends the rules. Problem with Gearhulk and other types of effects is that you target the 'instant' half of the card, but play the 'sorcery' half. Or Invasive surgery that targets the 'instant' card half, and successfully resolves because the inactive aftermath portion is a sorcery.

Invasive Surgery shouldn't work. I'm no rules guru but if you cast the instant side, only the 'spell instance' of the instant side is on the stack. Everything else seems counter-intuitive and dumb.
Gearhulk targets cards not spells. The interaction is still sick because you cross over from the stats of one card side to cast the other. But at least it is a little bit comprehensible.

Split cards are a bad idea in general because it breaks some fundamentals of a card game, e.g. a card being one card. And the rules to overcome problems have never been good. Fuse made it extremely worse. Aftermath seems not that problematic, at least after the CMC rules fix.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Forgetting that for 99% of cases an "Instant Sorcery" is mechanically overloaded and doesn't actually make it fundamentally different from an Instant? It's just stupid from the standpoint that split cards used to always just be two spells on one card - like I don't know how combining mana costs as a total converted mana cost makes sense when individual elements of both cards are still considered individually.

Like, the only reason we're not combining their card types into a weird single-word card type is because apparently "instant and sorcery" is easier to understand than "cmc 2 and 6", I just think it's silly that words aren't confusing in this regard but numbers are totally flummoxing people.

If Torrential Gearhulking into powerful sorceries becomes a common and powerful thing then I would expect a similar rules change could come.

As much as I don't like to see wotc dumb down rules, the cmc for split cards was unintuitive and the ability to cheat on mana costs was obviously unintended. The previous rules for split cards were limiting to what wotc can do with them in the future because if they ever combine a low cmc half with a high cmc half then they have to plan for people to use combos that cheat on the cost. There aren't any good enough combos in eternal formats but wotc did not intend for people to be able to use Kari Zev's Expertise in order to cast Tumble from Rough // Tumble. The interaction there is not overpowered but illustrates the mana cheating. Sunforger did the same thing to cheat on mana cost restrictions with split cards in EDH.

[rufus]

... Problem with Gearhulk and other types of effects is that you target the 'instant' half of the card, but play the 'sorcery' half. ...

It's because they don't do a good job of keeping spell (i.e. on the stack) properties and card (any card, any zone) properties separate.

[TsumiBand]

As much as I don't like to see wotc dumb down rules, the cmc for split cards was unintuitive and the ability to cheat on mana costs was obviously unintended. The previous rules for split cards were limiting to what wotc can do with them in the future because if they ever combine a low cmc half with a high cmc half then they have to plan for people to use combos that cheat on the cost.

I can understand the second half of the argument here, but IIRC the old process (who the hell knows what the new one is) R&D worked a lot more closely with the rules people to make sure mechanics could even be floated in the first place, so the acknowledgement of their dual characteristics must have been known from close to the outset of their conception to most parties involved.

I've seen the "unintuitive/unintended interaction" thing brought up from time to time when we see changes to cards or rules or mechanics over time, and it's hard for me to swallow stuff like that just because the Mothership tends to put out articles reminding people of these neat little interactions. They sell them as features not bugs, but then I guess they just wait and see which ones stick and which ones just don't go over well and then patch their game? Which, whatever, online games do this kind of thing all the time, but it's one thing to move from Faceless Butcher to Banisher Priest and change the game inasmuch as Standard is concerned, and another to just go "welp, fuck these rules in particular" and change the game for everyone. Like I thought that was part of the promise of Eternal formats, but... whatever vOv

[MaximumC]

I can understand the second half of the argument here, but IIRC the old process (who the hell knows what the new one is) R&D worked a lot more closely with the rules people to make sure mechanics could even be floated in the first place, so the acknowledgement of their dual characteristics must have been known from close to the outset of their conception to most parties involved.

I've seen the "unintuitive/unintended interaction" thing brought up from time to time when we see changes to cards or rules or mechanics over time, and it's hard for me to swallow stuff like that just because the Mothership tends to put out articles reminding people of these neat little interactions. They sell them as features not bugs, but then I guess they just wait and see which ones stick and which ones just don't go over well and then patch their game? Which, whatever, online games do this kind of thing all the time, but it's one thing to move from Faceless Butcher to Banisher Priest and change the game inasmuch as Standard is concerned, and another to just go "welp, fuck these rules in particular" and change the game for everyone. Like I thought that was part of the promise of Eternal formats, but... whatever vOv

Right, I share your sentiment, but there's a time to get legitimately up in arms about them screwing around with card functionality and a time to just shrug and take it.

Back in the day, they would legit just issue Oracle text on cards for the express purpose of screwing up an interaction they did not like. It's post-printing development. The earliest example was Relic Bind, which originally was a combo with Basalt Monolith. In Urza's block and thereabouts, they crushed card after card in this way, including Great Whale, Palinchron, the Parallax cards, etc. At the time, they openly admitted they were doing this to reduce the power level of the card, hence the term, "Power Level Errata." Happily, that term has been consigned to the dustbin of history and Wizards claims it no longer does this.

HOWEVER... it still, very occasionally, accomplishes the same thing under the guise of "original intent." This is a basically vacuous concept that means nothing and justifies whatever the Oracle manager thinks is the intuitive function of a card. (Why do I say that? Well, cards are developed by multiple people and multiple groups, so WHOSE intent matters? Worse, if it's an interaction no one saw coming, how could their possibly be an original intent?) Two cards that got hit by this recently are: (1) Thoughtlash, which got nerfed so that it no longer formed an win with instant-speed Donate effects; and (2) Reconnaissance, which got nerfed so that it no longer gave pseudo-vigilance. The latter of the two was rolled back after community outcry, happily.

That practice, of changing text on cards to stop things from happening, is maddening, annoying, and should not be done.

Changing the RULES, however? That happens All. The. Time. Everytime they update the comprehensive rules, cards gain and lose functionality. Mogg Fanatic was a better card when damage was on the stack. Gerrard Capsian was a better card when tapped creatures dealt no combat damage. Power Sink lost is power when Interrupts went away. Lots of cards became pointless when mana burn went away. Pretty much unless your name is "Lotus Vale," your functionality is allowed to change as a result of changes in the comp rules.

So, let's choose our battles. Changes in the rules happen. It's not the worst they could do. :)

[PirateKing]

The rules on split cards were always pretty clear to me, same logic applied to all other multi-typed cards. The fundamental game logic of Magic is condensed into a series of binary yes/no queries. If you try and Pyroblast a Shardless Agent, all the rules ask is "is this card blue?". The answer isn't yes but it is also green. The answer is just yes. Disenchant? Is it an artifact? Yes but... nope, just yes, everything else is irrelevant.

So when you imprint a card onto Isochron Scepter, all the game asks is "is it an Instant with CMC 2 or less?". If the answer is yes, but also a sorcery with CMC whatever, same logic applies. Yes and everything after gets ignored.

So this change just seems to muddle that in a way that makes me uncomfortable :|

[TsumiBand]

I'm not "up in arms" I'm just grousing. Sorry if my tone or lengthy posts suggested otherwise. I'm well-aware of the precedent and history surrounding changes to the game, that doesn't mean I have to swallow 100% of them without choking on a bone from time to time. I don't miss mana burn or interrupts or any of the old Legendary rules. I really want to put damage back on the fucking stack though. :[

[UnderwaterGuy]

I can understand the second half of the argument here, but IIRC the old process (who the hell knows what the new one is) R&D worked a lot more closely with the rules people to make sure mechanics could even be floated in the first place, so the acknowledgement of their dual characteristics must have been known from close to the outset of their conception to most parties involved.

I've seen the "unintuitive/unintended interaction" thing brought up from time to time when we see changes to cards or rules or mechanics over time, and it's hard for me to swallow stuff like that just because the Mothership tends to put out articles reminding people of these neat little interactions. They sell them as features not bugs, but then I guess they just wait and see which ones stick and which ones just don't go over well and then patch their game? Which, whatever, online games do this kind of thing all the time, but it's one thing to move from Faceless Butcher to Banisher Priest and change the game inasmuch as Standard is concerned, and another to just go "welp, fuck these rules in particular" and change the game for everyone. Like I thought that was part of the promise of Eternal formats, but... whatever vOv



Yeah, I shouldn't rely on calling a rule "unintuitive" because that is a pretty weak argument and they say that about almost anything. Neither ruling is very intuitive tbh. The arcane rules of the game are a benefit most of the time and mtg just isn't a simple game so simplifying rules isn't that important. I also don't think this change is at all near the "damage on the stack" rule change (RIP) that really changed the functionality of a lot of cards.

It's very unfortunate for a group of players that were getting value from Beck // Call and Sunforger but there will also be new synergies for split cards (Wear // Tear won't counter 1's and 2's but maybe it will counter a Show and Tell or Liliana and in other formats you could use different Transmute cards now and Grozoth must gain some new targets) and most importantly it isn't a huge constraint on all future split cards.

[joven]

The rules on split cards were always pretty clear to me, same logic applied to all other multi-typed cards. The fundamental game logic of Magic is condensed into a series of binary yes/no queries. If you try and Pyroblast a Shardless Agent, all the rules ask is "is this card blue?". The answer isn't yes but it is also green. The answer is just yes. Disenchant? Is it an artifact? Yes but... nope, just yes, everything else is irrelevant.

So when you imprint a card onto Isochron Scepter, all the game asks is "is it an Instant with CMC 2 or less?". If the answer is yes, but also a sorcery with CMC whatever, same logic applies. Yes and everything after gets ignored.

So this change just seems to muddle that in a way that makes me uncomfortable :|

There is a big difference between cards like Shardless Agent and Split cards.

[bruizar]

The rules on split cards were always pretty clear to me, same logic applied to all other multi-typed cards. The fundamental game logic of Magic is condensed into a series of binary yes/no queries. If you try and Pyroblast a Shardless Agent, all the rules ask is "is this card blue?". The answer isn't yes but it is also green. The answer is just yes. Disenchant? Is it an artifact? Yes but... nope, just yes, everything else is irrelevant.

So when you imprint a card onto Isochron Scepter, all the game asks is "is it an Instant with CMC 2 or less?". If the answer is yes, but also a sorcery with CMC whatever, same logic applies. Yes and everything after gets ignored.

So this change just seems to muddle that in a way that makes me uncomfortable :|

Could not agree more. If they wanted to prevent boom/bust type scenarios, they should have done it correctly and prevent all these things from being abused (Cards without a manacost do not have a CMC, and thus cannot be cheated) and Cards that target instants can only resolve the instant part of the card.

I don't really care which rules path they take, but at least be consistent.

[PirateKing]

There is a big difference between cards like Shardless Agent and Split cards.

Not in the over-encompassing logic that drives the game. The game asks questions and only accepts yes/no answers. If the answer is yes, then the thing works. Asking if a card like Commit // Memory is a Sorcery is the same thing as asking if Volcanic Island is a Mountain. "Counts as both and is affected by spells that affect either." Is it a Sorcery? Yes and no. Any number of yes results means it applies to whatever it is you're doing. Burning Wish? Sure. Same logic when getting a Tundra with a Flagstones of Trokair. Is the land you're searching for a Plains? Yes and no. That's fundamental game logic that doesn't have any exception to the rules, except for now it seems.

[TsumiBand]

Not in the over-encompassing logic that drives the game. The game asks questions and only accepts yes/no answers. If the answer is yes, then the thing works. Asking if a card like Commit // Memory is a Sorcery is the same thing as asking if Volcanic Island is a Mountain. "Counts as both and is affected by spells that affect either." Is it a Sorcery? Yes and no. Any number of yes results means it applies to whatever it is you're doing. Burning Wish? Sure. Same logic when getting a Tundra with a Flagstones of Trokair. Is the land you're searching for a Plains? Yes and no. That's fundamental game logic that doesn't have any exception to the rules, except for now it seems.

Right, precisely. We're fine with dual characteristics everywhere else, except somehow with mana costs.

[Claymore]

So does Invasive Surgery counter an aftermath card now? Because they're Instant Sorcery cards.

[TsumiBand]

So does Invasive Surgery counter an aftermath card now? Because they're Instant Sorcery cards.

On the stack, split cards have always just been the half you're actually casting (save Fuse). So if you choose Ice when casting Fire / Ice, you can't Blue Elemental Blast it.

So to clarify, unless it's being cast as an Aftermath spell, if it's not currently a Sorcery then it won't work.

[Claymore]

So they're just one half of the card except where they add the other side's mana cost.

[PirateKing]

So they're just one half of the card except where they add the other side's mana cost.

Just as with X costed cards, everywhere else but on the stack X is zero, so Entreat the Angels has a CMC of 3 in your hand, but once you set the value on the stack, it'll be whatever it is for things that care like Mana Drain.

The logic behind split cards is the same thing. Everywhere but when you're actually casting them, they have two sets of values. Once you cast the card, you define the values and that is what the game sees as the card on the stack.

When you cast the Commit side of Commit // Memory you're casting a blue Instant with CMC 4. When you cast Memory, you're casting a blue Sorcery with CMC 6.
When it's anywhere but on the stack, it's a blue card that is an Instant and a Sorcery, and what should have been a CMC of 4 and 6, but now it's 10.

[bruizar]

Just as with X costed cards, everywhere else but on the stack X is zero, so Entreat the Angels has a CMC of 3 in your hand, but once you set the value on the stack, it'll be whatever it is for things that care like Mana Drain.

The logic behind split cards is the same thing. Everywhere but when you're actually casting them, they have two sets of values. Once you cast the card, you define the values and that is what the game sees as the card on the stack.

When you cast the Commit side of Commit // Memory you're casting a blue Instant with CMC 4. When you cast Memory, you're casting a blue Sorcery with CMC 6.
When it's anywhere but on the stack, it's a blue card that is an Instant and a Sorcery, and what should have been a CMC of 4 and 6, but now it's 10.

The only one that profits from this change is Grozoth...

[PirateKing]

The only one that profits from this change is Grozoth...

but at what cost :cry::cry:

[Ronald Deuce]

The only one that profits from this change is Grozoth...

Also Ignite Memories. It's like they're trying to throw Storm a bone, only they're forgetting none of those cards is going to see play.

[EDIT: Apropos of nothing, I'm starting to get Banding/Phasing vibes from this stuff.]

[UnderwaterGuy]

I play Grozoth in EDH and will try adding good split cards to the deck he is in. He had some targets before but this could help. I need to create a list of all the things that are newly 9-cmc.

edit: It's a very short list:
Catch // Release

That's a disappointment

[morgan_coke]

Is it much worse? I actually think it's one of the better cards in the set (not for Legacy, but for Standard and potentially Modern). If it just triggered on cycling, I'd be right there with you. However, since it triggers on cycling OR discard, I think it could be part of some sort of engine deck. Again - not advocating this for Legacy, but there's starting to be a critical mass of effects that could make for a deck in Modern. Seismic Assault, Faith of the Devoted, Molten Vortex + Shadow of the Grave.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_dcXyW81Veq.png

It's dramatically worse than Lightning Rift. Which is better, Lightning Bolt or Lava Spike? Hitting your opponent with Rift was often one of the worse plays you could make with it since clearing creatures was always better, and you only used to on your opponent to end the game. Going from 2 mana to 3 is also huge.

People are overplaying the "on Discard" angle on cards cost mana to activate. For example, triggering twice off of Thirst for Knowledge or Compulsive Research is 5 mana. That's a LOT to spend on something that doesn't affect the board at all. It doesn't see any play until you've maxed out your Drake Roosts, then you've got to ask yourself if you want more than four cards in your deck that do nothing when cast and cost 3 mana.

[PirateKing]

God my fingers are crossed they specified both both cycle and discard because there's some enchantment coming that says "When you cycle a card, put in on the bottom of your library instead of your graveyard"

[rufus]

God my fingers are crossed they specified both both cycle and discard because there's some enchantment coming that says "When you cycle a card, put in on the bottom of your library instead of your graveyard"

Wheel of Sun and Moon?

[MaximumC]

Wheel of Sun and Moon?

Wait a gosh darn minute.

I think you've stumbled upon a functional effect of "discard or cycle." It's not just reminder text. This means that Amonkhet cards like this work despite Anafenza, the Foremost or Leyline of the Void? Is... is this breakable?


Also, did you know that Cleansing Meditation is a card? Works pretty well with all of the "ETB trigger" enchantments in Amonkhet huh?

[rufus]

Wait a gosh darn minute.

I think you've stumbled upon a functional effect of "discard or cycle." It's not just reminder text. ...

I'm pretty sure, it's still discard. You can discard to exile (madness) or discard to the top of the library (Library of Leng) too.

[Cire]

I'm pretty sure, it's still discard. You can discard to exile (madness) or discard to the top of the library (Library of Leng) too.

If you discard a madness card, discard it into exile, cast it for its madness cost, and it ends up in the grave, then cast shadow of the grave, do you return it to your hand since it was a card that was discarded that turn, even if it changed zones twice since being discarded?

[Barook]

Looks like the MTGO team decided to undo the mess the design team has done. Crazy, I know:

Aftermath cards:

http://i.imgur.com/bAMQOVl.jpg

Invocations that are actually readable: (compared to the abomination we got in Paper)

http://i.imgur.com/lp8SwGB.png http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/bontutheglorified1.jpg

[H]

I wonder if the "non-Legendary" clause on Lay Bare the Heart might be a hint that Ixalan might be an attempt at Kamigawa 2.0, some fashion of "Legendary Matters."

[rufus]

If you discard a madness card, discard it into exile, cast it for its madness cost, and it ends up in the grave, then cast shadow of the grave, do you return it to your hand since it was a card that was discarded that turn, even if it changed zones twice since being discarded?

No. It becomes a different object when it changes zones.

[Ronald Deuce]

Looks like the MTGO team decided to undo the mess the design team has done.

NOOO! What have they done to ?IBORTOTHEGLORCFCEBI??

[rufus]

NOOO! What have they done to ?IBORTOTHEGLORCFCEBI??

I wonder what those look like to people who use Greek or Cyrillic regularly. Some of those characters look a lot like П, Д , or Я to me.

[MaximumC]

http://i.imgur.com/lp8SwGB.png http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/bontutheglorified1.jpg

Hilarious. If you want proof that your design concept is a freakin' mess, ask the MTGO folks first. Textless cards were easier to read that these abominations.

DISCLAIMER: I still like that you made these abominations Wizards thank you.

[Claymore]

Doesn't look half bad with a nice black border around the card.

[Ronald Deuce]

I wonder what those look like to people who use Greek or Cyrillic regularly. Some of those characters look a lot like П, Д , or Я to me.

I'm in the awkward position of knowing only about 20 words of (ancient) Greek and no Russian yet being able to read the alphabets in both. I had a similar thought about the Invocations; the early previews were so tough on the eyes I couldn't tell whether they were supposed to be Latin characters, so I can only imagine what they'll look like to people who don't use the Latin alphabet.

With the degree to which that graphic design is a trainwreck, something tells me they've made at least one mistake of "ɅMIHAZORETTHEPERVERTI" proportions in the foreign markets.

[tescrin]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/byforce.jpg

This seems pretty decent.

It's debatable against Shattering Spree. Spree isn't easily countered, but is Red heavy.

[joven]

I wonder if the "non-Legendary" clause on Lay Bare the Heart might be a hint that Ixalan might be an attempt at Kamigawa 2.0, some fashion of "Legendary Matters."

It's because of the Gods.
Ixalan is probably the Atlantean Mesoamerican theme with pirates.
I doubt there will be a "legendary matters" set ever again, because it doesn't make much sense.

[Ronald Deuce]

In other news, Glorybringer is a useful card in Limited.

[Darkenslight]

In other news, Glorybringer is a useful card in Limited.

As are Archfiend of Ifnir and Liliana's Mastery. They are bombs.

[joven]

In other news, Glorybringer is a useful card in Limited.

Who would have thought that bombs are good in Limited? :eek:

[johanessen]

What happened on this card? Finally not released? Why?
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_mbVorMDziL.png
Amonketh release notes. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/amonkhet-release-notes-2017-04-14)

[rufus]

What happened on this card? Finally not released? Why?
...

In recent sets there are a couple of 'planeswalker deck only' cards that don't show up in packs. The planeswalker decks are an intro product.