Tezzeret Ravager Shops (no, seriously)

[Snake Pliskan]

Long time MTG guy. Just this minute registered an account here to see what the reaction is to this deck. It's the result of a handful of overlapping ideas of mine regarding a bunch of cards I happen to like, with strong influences from several specific decks that have defined their respective formats in their time. I'm a student of history when it comes to deck construction. I've solved more than one standard format with a legitimate broken deck. In the case of the most egregious offender, it went completely under the radar until the core rotated. I had just gotten back into MTG at the time, and didn't have an avenue to get it into any major events. Another one went on to see success in the hands of others at the GP and SCG levels. I offered it to a friend of mine who was competing in the PT for that format but it was too far out of his comfort zone, so it wasn't represented. Anyways... I'm not claiming this deck here today is anywhere remotely close to warping the format, but I thought I'd give a little background info for better context.

A couple basic premises that drove the initial concept:

- It's an underappreciated fact that Hangarback Walker with Arcbound Ravager is a powerful interaction regardless of the format.

- Two Vintage restricted cards that play well together and were both found guilty of being degenerate on separate occasions had been cornerstones of the ravager shops deck that sat at the top of the vintage food chain all the way up until it was no longer possible to play more than 2 copies of both cards combined. Naturally I'm referring to Chalice of the Void and Lodestone Golem, which is among the most oppressive one-two sequences available to open a game of magic.

- All the above cards were complementary pieces of the same overwhelmingly dominant deck. Though it's no longer a possibility to field a vintage deck containing as many of them as you like, it remains an option in legacy for now.

Why hasn't this territory been better explored in Legacy, independent of a metalworker shell and the well known flaws associated with that?

I wanted to answer that question without blindly attempting to recreate the exact parallels to the conditions achieved by a deck having access to a full set of power and Mishra's Workshops. The goal was intended to be realistic as opposed to insurmountable. I considered it likely that there are other applications for a framework containing such a high inherent power level. I knew that it would require a direction to take with the mana base that I didn't expect to find an existing template for. I knew I wanted to play Thoughtcast, for reasons I'll elaborate on at another time, and that colored mana sources would creep in whether they were necessary or not. If I'm already designing a mana base to support Mox Opal and Thoughtcast and deploy Chalice into Lodestone the first two turns, I expect I'll want a bunch of additional game breaking 4 drops and not just Golems. Anyone reading this certainly knows where that road goes. I mocked up a hasty list on MTGO a week or two ago, expecting to have fun with these cards and nothing much past that. The results were far better than I anticipated so I started tuning it for real, and here we are now with the 75 below.

Thoughts?


4 ancient tomb
2 polluted delta
2 UB sea
1 basic U

4 darksteel citadel
4 vault of whispers
4 seat of the synod

4 mox opal
2 mox diamond

4 thoughtcast
2 FOW

4 chalice of the void
1 EE

4 arcbound ravager
4 baleful strix
3 hangarback walker
1 trinket mage

1 sword of fire and ice
4 lodestone golem
3 tezzeret, agent
2 jace, better than all

SB
3 tormod's crypt
1 spellskite
4 phyrexian revoker

1 trinket mage
2 masticore
1 opposition

1 toxic deluge
2 FOW


[edited 9/12 to expand and clarify the description of the basic premise]

[Snake Pliskan]

I realize a little more explanation may be necessary. At the core this is an artifact ramp deck based around the package of artifact lands, mox opals and thoughtcast to refill as soon as you have dumped your mana and low drops on the board. The core package has seen play at one time or another in every format it's been legal and is established as powerful and explosive. What the deck looks to do with it's fast mana is establish a 4 drop as soon as possible that commands an answer or threatens to end the game in short order. It employs a compact but oppressive package of lock parts as the primary form of disruption, and is equipped to deploy a steady stream of value generating 2 drops. These cards serve to protect plansewalkers or life total, as well as present a clock. Most of the creatures generate value naturally without additional set up. Ravager is the exception, and is there to take advantage of having an early board presence and multiple expendable bodies that had a low resource investment to produce them. It also enables your battlefield to be very dynamic and difficult to interact with directly. Only the most efficient and highest impact lock pieces are present. The quality drops off steeply once you get beyond Chalice and Lodestone. If they are being used effectively they don't need a lot of help anyway.

Plansewalker ramp decks are midrange decks by nature and this is no exception. It's looking to explode through the initial turns and establish it's principal plan, then from there a lot of flexibility is available. Whatever the opponent wants the game to be about and is prepared for is exactly what will not be happening. The tools exist to make this possible in a wide variety of circumstances and to successfully assume whatever role necessary to realize this objective. The SB is set up to enable this even further in whichever direction is effective in a given matchup. Lock an opponent out of doing anything relevant. Fortify a defense to protect a plansewalker kill. Pressure the red zone with lodestone and 5/5 hasty animated metalworks. Effortlessly contain opposing creature threats by boarding into toxic deluge, masticores, and 3 ways to access enineered explosives directly. Bury opponents under a mountain of card advantage from Tezzeret Jace and SOFI. Whatever.

[ESG]

There's a guy who plays a similar list at our weeklies, except he runs Master of Etherium instead of Hangarback Walker, and I don't think Lodestone Golem is in the main. He has reasonable results, but nothing exciting. Lodestone is a bit awkward with planeswalkers, and the blue count in your list is pretty low for Force of Will. It's always a challenge to squeeze in enough blue cards to support it. I like Hangarback with sac outlets. You should run this deck through some events and post a report.

[Poron]

Thopter Foundry
Sword of the Meek
Ensnaring Bridge

2x Transmute Artifact

[Snake Pliskan]

There's a guy who plays a similar list at our weeklies, except he runs Master of Etherium instead of Hangarback Walker, and I don't think Lodestone Golem is in the main. He has reasonable results, but nothing exciting. Lodestone is a bit awkward with planeswalkers, and the blue count in your list is pretty low for Force of Will. It's always a challenge to squeeze in enough blue cards to support it. I like Hangarback with sac outlets. You should run this deck through some events and post a report.

Cool. I'd be interested to know his list if possible. I can address your points. Don't take it as argument but rather conversation. The feedback is welcome.

Force of Will isn't a primary player. The two maindeck copies are a concession to truly broken plays like turn one griselbrands, and are a last line of defense should something dire slip through chalice and lodestone early. I'll happily snap one off turn one to protect an upcoming chalice from a discard spell, for example, rather than save it to interact with things I prefer to delay til they're ineffective. I cut them after board more often than I add the 3rd and 4th. I also tried carefully to make them castable to the extent possible. There are 16 main deck blue cards for 2 forces, leaving exactly 15 colored mana sources to pitch cast any given copy. I think that's pretty reliable for 2 copies. I use one to pay for the other the majority of times I draw both in pre-boarded games, so it self corrects in that regard.

Lodestone delaying plansewalkers has been more of a non issue than I originally expected. For one thing, most of the top end threats are fairly capable of bending a game around their presence on the battlefield by themselves. They're your own tools, so you have the freedom to know what's coming in the future and sequence to avoid interference. On top of all that, it has actually just proven not to be an issue to spend an additional mana the vast majority of the time, if in fact you do sequence your golems first. The mana is engineered to ramp hard to hit 4 mana and stop the curve there. As a result it's usually academic to find 5 mana the following turn if it's critical to deploy a golem first. There aren't any 5+ drops to curve into.

Hope that addresses some of your thoughts. I ran thru a few MTGO leagues while I was getting it tuned to a point where it didn't look incomplete. I don't put a lot of stock in small sample size win rate but the results have been good enough not to scrap it, like what happens with the majority of these kinds of endeavors when they reach their limit.

[bruizar]

Thopter Foundry
Sword of the Meek
Ensnaring Bridge

2x Transmute Artifact

No, just use animation module.

[Snake Pliskan]

Thopter Foundry
Sword of the Meek
Ensnaring Bridge

2x Transmute Artifact
I tested a thopter sword package and it was extremely underwhelming in this setting. I expected more that what it delivered.

I also have given consideration to both transmute and bridge, but elected to go other directions for assorted reasons. Good suggestions though. Bridge in particular is an area I'm attempting to address with Opposition. Primarily for the likes of sneak and reanimate targets and merit lage type stuff. So far it's given me what I wanted from that slot every time I've seen it in a game.

[bruizar]

I tested a thopter sword package and it was extremely underwhelming in this setting. I expected more that what it delivered.

I also have given consideration to both transmute and bridge, but elected to go other directions for assorted reasons. Good suggestions though. Bridge in particular is an area I'm attempting to address with Opposition. Primarily for the likes of sneak and reanimate targets and merit lage type stuff. So far it's given me what I wanted from that slot every time I've seen it in a game.


Make a dpot for animation module. That, plus ravager and hangarback is the stones. Much better than thopter sword.

[Snake Pliskan]

You're gonna need an image or a link to convince me that's an actual card.

[bruizar]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/126/893/636087527151186431.png

[Snake Pliskan]

oh, Kaladesh, gotcha. I game almost exclusively on MTGO these days, so those cards aren't real to me until they are. ;)

Plus it's a one drop. Thanks for the pic in any case. Cool looking card.

[bruizar]

One drop with chalice is unfortunate, but its really insane protection for ravager. Basically there is no way to plow it anymore, since you can just sack an artifact, add a plus one plus one, make a token, sack ravager and move the counters to the token. Ravager reads 1: +1//+1 counter, and with hangarback or steel overseer its also insane.

[RobNC]

This looks like an odd mix between Tezzerator and Affinity; it's lacking a lot of the prison pieces that Vintage Ravager Shops will have (using this (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-ravager-shops-23449#paper) list for reference) but doesn't have much counter magic to save itself from, say, Blood Moon, which locks out a good chunk of the deck.

Does look kind of cool though. I'm interested to see where this development goes.

[Poron]

This deck already plays UB I would add R (with 6 Moxes you can already, just add a couple of Volcanic Islands) and go much deeper into the Planeswalker route.

Tezzeret Agent, ok
Jace, ok.

Daretti 2.0
Dak Fayden
new Saheeli (to fetch and win with her ultimate)

you can also stay back and rely on Daretti and Thopter tokens and Strix 90% of the match and then close with a Planeswalker ultimate.

This deck can

Chalice turn 1
Daretti/Dack/Saheeli turn 2
Jace/Tezzeret turn 3

control from there with card advantage (Jace, Tezzeret), help yourself with card quality (Dack Fayden) and grind him out of his misery (Daretti 2.0, Strix, Thopters).

Consider also how huge it is Dack Fayden looting ability with Daretti ultimate.
You discard a Wurmcoil Engine and you gain 3 on the field.

This deck screams for more and more Planeswalkers. You can always pitch the more you draw of to FoW and Misdirection (or just set them aside with Jace's Brainstorm)

[Poron]

playtested for fun: never without Daretti. you sac Mox Opal to get rid of his Emrakul or Jitte or really whatever.

3 or 4 of

[Lemnear]

This OP can't decide if he wants to play Tezzerator, Affinity or MUD. Makes no sense to discuss at all if the lacking synergy between Lodestone Golem and the rest of the deck (just to name one example) isn't obvious

[Smea.gol.lum]

This deck already plays UB I would add R (with 6 Moxes you can already, just add a couple of Volcanic Islands) and go much deeper into the Planeswalker route.

Tezzeret Agent, ok
Jace, ok.

Daretti 2.0
Dak Fayden
new Saheeli (to fetch and win with her ultimate)

you can also stay back and rely on Daretti and Thopter tokens and Strix 90% of the match and then close with a Planeswalker ultimate.

This deck can

Chalice turn 1
Daretti/Dack/Saheeli turn 2
Jace/Tezzeret turn 3

control from there with card advantage (Jace, Tezzeret), help yourself with card quality (Dack Fayden) and grind him out of his misery (Daretti 2.0, Strix, Thopters).

Consider also how huge it is Dack Fayden looting ability with Daretti ultimate.
You discard a Wurmcoil Engine and you gain 3 on the field.

This deck screams for more and more Planeswalkers. You can always pitch the more you draw of to FoW and Misdirection (or just set them aside with Jace's Brainstorm)

THIS! Daretti is far too good not to run in this shell. Clear 3-of imo.

I think that Dack Fayden competes with Thoughtcast and I would like to hear why you prefer Thoughtcast, Snake Pliskan. I'm not sure either.



Long time MTG guy. Just this minute registered an account here to see what the reaction is to this deck. It's the result of a handful of overlapping ideas of mine regarding a bunch of cards I happen to like, with strong influences from several specific decks that have defined their respective formats in their time. I'm a student of history when it comes to deck construction. I've solved more than one standard format with a legitimate broken deck. In the case of the most egregious offender, it went completely under the radar until the core rotated. I had just gotten back into MTG at the time, and didn't have an avenue to get it into any major events. Another one went on to see success in the hands of others at the GP and SCG levels. I offered it to a friend of mine who was competing in the PT for that format but it was too far out of his comfort zone, so it wasn't represented. Anyways... I'm not claiming this deck here today is anywhere remotely close to warping the format, but I thought I'd give a little background info for better context.

A couple basic premises that drove the initial concept:

- It's an underappreciated fact that Hangarback Walker with Arcbound Ravager is a powerful interaction regardless of the format.

- Two Vintage restricted cards that play well together and were both found guilty of being degenerate on separate occasions had been cornerstones of the ravager shops deck that sat at the top of the vintage food chain all the way until it was no longer possible to play more than 2 copies of both cards combined. Why hasn't this territory been better explored in Legacy, independent of a metalworker shell and the well known flaws associated with that?

I wanted to answer that question. I knew that it would require a direction to take with the mana base that I didn't expect to find an existing template for. I knew I wanted to play Thoughtcast, for reasons I'll elaborate on at another time, and that colored mana sources would creep in whether they were necessary or not. If I'm already designing a mana base to support Mox Opal and Thoughtcast and deploy Chalice into Lodestone the first two turns, I expect I'll want a bunch of additional game breaking 4 drops and not just Golems. Anyone reading this certainly knows where that road goes. I mocked up a hasty list on MTGO a week or two ago, expecting to have fun with these cards and nothing much past that. The results were far better than I anticipated so I started tuning it for real, and here we are now with the 75 below.

Thoughts?


4 ancient tomb
2 polluted delta
2 UB sea
1 basic U

4 darksteel citadel
4 vault of whispers
4 seat of the synod

4 mox opal
2 mox diamond

4 thoughtcast
2 FOW

4 chalice of the void
1 EE

4 arcbound ravager
4 baleful strix
3 hangarback walker
1 trinket mage

1 sword of fire and ice
4 lodestone golem
3 tezzeret, agent
2 jace, better than all

SB
3 tormod's crypt
1 spellskite
4 phyrexian revoker

1 trinket mage
2 masticore
1 opposition

1 toxic deluge
2 FOW

The lack of synergy between Golem and the rest of the deck has been mentioned, so I would cut it and would go up to 4 FoW to adress combo. FoW is online on turn 0, Golem on turn 2/3.

With all the artifacts in the deck, I would always run the 4th Tezzeret before Jace, because he wins you the game on the following turn most of the time.

Trinket Mage, EE and Sword also look weak.

I'm not sure about Ravager without creature support either. There aren't enough creatures to reliably counter removal like Swords to Plowshares by passing on the counters. The combo with Hangarback Walker looks nice on paper, but you won't draw both cards every game and Walker on its own seems rather underwelming.

Here's a rough sketch of what I would run:

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Glimmervoid
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace

4 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond

4 Thoughtcast
4 Force of Will

4 Chalice of the Void

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Baleful Strix
2 Master of Etherium
2 Etched Champion
2 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

The list is untested, so the mana base as well as some choices like Revoker, Champion and Master are debatable.


This OP can't decide if he wants to play Tezzerator, Affinity or MUD. Makes no sense to discuss at all if the lacking synergy between Lodestone Golem and the rest of the deck (just to name one example) isn't obvious

I also think that another thread isn't required.
For me, these lists look like next level Affinity. The reason to play Affinity these days are its fast mana base centered around Mox Opal, Chalice of the Void, Daretti and Tezzeret.

EDIT: I have to say that Animation Module looks strong. With all the planeswalkers and Ravager, it seems to fit well into the deck.
Chalice on 1 hurts, but you can always sacrifice CHalice with Ravager or Daretti if needed. Hangarback Walker also makes more sense with Animation Module. So perhaps this is the ways to go:


4 Ancient Tomb
1 Glimmervoid
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace

4 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond

4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtcast

4 Chalice of the Void

3 Arcbound Ravager
4 Baleful Strix
2 Master of Etherium
3 Hangarback Walker
2 Animation Module

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
2 Dack Fayden

[Snake Pliskan]

This OP can't decide if he wants to play Tezzerator, Affinity or MUD. Makes no sense to discuss at all if the lacking synergy between Lodestone Golem and the rest of the deck (just to name one example) isn't obvious

On the contrary, I know exactly what I want out of this build. It's none of the things you listed but shares overlapping components of all of them. Try to imagine the possibility you haven't seen everything there is to be seen in this world, and you'll begin to understand this deck is looking to find out if some of the cards have a wider range than the applications they've been used for up til now.

The lack of synergy you refer to between Lodestone Golem and the game plan the deck is seeking to execute is not at all obvious to me. Maybe you can clarify that in a way that isn't going to be just a rehash of the dialogue between ESG and myself on that subject. You're concerned about what exactly - finding a 5th mana source to play a 4 drop out of a deck just shy of 50% mana production with an 8 card cantrip suite that sidesteps all your lock pieces? If so, you're not focusing on the right kinds of details.

[Snake Pliskan]

I think that Dack Fayden competes with Thoughtcast and I would like to hear why you prefer Thoughtcast, Snake Pliskan. I'm not sure either.
Interesting. I wouldn't have thought to compare the two directly. From the way I look at it, Thoughtcast is a one mana super cantrip. It fits perfect in this type of shell for a number of reasons. When you're constructing around a card like Mox Opal, you're given incentive to dump cards from your hand to turn on metalcraft immediately. Thoughtcast leverages the exact same conditions and absorbs the cost incurred in terms of cards in hand that was spent to jump your board ahead by a turn or two. It is also a natural complement to a disruption suite centered on chalice and lodestone. Lodestone tax is cancelled out due to counting itself for affinity discount. Alongside Chalice of the Void it offers a one mana cantrip that nets twice the raw card quantity relative to it's competition, which is also live when the others are off. Divination for U is not at all a fair or balanced card even in legacy, and that is essentially what Thoughtcast is the majority of the time, in most decks that are including it. You give up the option to play it turn one more than a small percentage of the time. That's a low cost in most decks that would want it, since they already by default have to be constructed to have a high density of immediate plays to the board. It is a very different deckbuilding constraint than something like Ponder, for example, that's routinely used to lead off and immediately manage card access before sequencing other plays.

[Snake Pliskan]

This looks like an odd mix between Tezzerator and Affinity; it's lacking a lot of the prison pieces that Vintage Ravager Shops will have (using this (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-ravager-shops-23449#paper) list for reference) but doesn't have much counter magic to save itself from, say, Blood Moon, which locks out a good chunk of the deck.

Does look kind of cool though. I'm interested to see where this development goes.

In a lot of ways it is a mix between not only those decks, but a couple others as well. It takes multiple structural cues from a handful of proven outlines. It's not exactly looking to pattern it's play after any one of them however. You're correct that it contains only a sparse prison element. That form of disruption is one piece of the total package of tools at it's disposal. The lock pieces are efficient. If they're effectively deployed they represent a virtual exchange with multiple cards from the opponent's side while on the battlefield, so it's neither necessary or even attractive to add more while getting diminishing returns. They only need serve to delay opposing strategies rather than shut them down entirely when combined with the proper pressure along other axes.

Blood moon hasn't been a dealbreaker in the limited number of times I've faced it with this deck. A large percentage of the cards require no colored mana, moxen are still live, and there are also a few ways to access the basic island. Blood Moon doesn't stop artifact lands from continuing to be artifacts for the purposes of ravager or tezzeret. I'm not sure if I should be more concerned about it than I am but it doesn't sound too threatening. Thanks for giving your thoughts.

[btm10]

I've considered shells like this in the past, but the problem I'm concerned with is the prevalence of Null Rod and issues with dealing with a resolved Delver or Phyrexian Revoker. It looks hard to make the mana work well for Triskelion, though I suppose Strix can put in some work on that front. With Ravager in the deck, I think you probably want to make room for either Misha's Factory or Blinkmoth Nexus (Inkmoth seems kinda narrow without something like Crainal Plating) to really push the poison angle. I don't hate running something like a few Broodstars out of the board specifically to help against creature matchups. I've definitely wanted to see Lodestone Golem in Tezzerator maindecks since I first tried the deck out.

[Snake Pliskan]

I've considered shells like this in the past, but the problem I'm concerned with is the prevalence of Null Rod and issues with dealing with a resolved Delver or Phyrexian Revoker. It looks hard to make the mana work well for Triskelion, though I suppose Strix can put in some work on that front. With Ravager in the deck, I think you probably want to make room for either Misha's Factory or Blinkmoth Nexus (Inkmoth seems kinda narrow without something like Crainal Plating) to really push the poison angle. I don't hate running something like a few Broodstars out of the board specifically to help against creature matchups. I've definitely wanted to see Lodestone Golem in Tezzerator maindecks since I first tried the deck out.

Haha, yeah picking up a deck like this in a null rod heavy environment would be fairly reckless. If there's a really simple fix for that I haven't thought of it yet. Delvers and Revokers are both pesky but not anywhere approaching the degrees of oppression null rod presents. Delver can threaten to apply pressure faster than you can contain it and Revoker is usually going to cut off access to something of value, but both can be interacted with or gone over the top of if they aren't successfully being leveraged to put you too far out of position. Having access to so many Strixes definitely mitigates a lot of the problems Delver normally presents against this general class of deck.

I had the desire for an effect like Triskelion, like you mentioned. Problem was anything more than 4 mana was just a total liability throughout testing. Jitte really dropped the ball in this deck too. To a surprising degree. At some point I thought I'd try Masticore. The mana cost is right. The deck accumulates plenty of resources to fuel it, and it has all the properties I'm looking for out of the 4 slot in the matchups where it applies. It's a permanent source of disruption that also enforces a deadline on the proceedings. Avoids a fair amount of commonly played removal. Demands a solution in a pretty short window or it flat puts the game out of reach. Exactly the properties that drew me to the 4 drops I selected for the main deck. UR sword is in that same category as well, but it's not as universally fantastic as the others. At any rate, 'cores have looked pretty good in that role ever since they were added.

Over the course of streamlining the mana base there's been a utility land in the list at times. Ultimately, as attractive as factories or any other utility land might be, the results were pointing toward wanting all the mana sources focused exclusively on providing maximum mana access. For the deck to succeed, it's in part because it's able to maintain higher velocity than an opponent, so anything that reduces the odds of your draws being live in any way had to go. Also, I'd bet most people would be surprised at how little it actually takes for Ravager to be efficient and powerful. This deck is partly an exercise in trying to illustrate that. Even with just some shitter strixes and hangarbacks it generates a battlefield that's difficult to engage rather quickly and easily.

[bruizar]

Haha, yeah picking up a deck like this in a null rod heavy environment would be fairly reckless. If there's a really simple fix for that I haven't thought of it yet.

Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

[Poron]

Thopter Foundry is also needed imho.

You have endless engine of destruction with Daretti and Tezzeret makes (some of) them 5/5 fliers for free.

Dimir Signet to Trasmute (Artifact) it on combo pieces and to be completly out from any Wasteland/Blood Moon lock.

This deck might actually work, we have just to remember that artifacts are the easiest permanents to destroy.

[Poron]

overall with 3x Dack Fayden and Grixis color you can play 2x Chain of Mephistopheles in MB to start beating Miracle (which is still a topdog) from G1

G2+1 Chains and just play to resolve one. From there Chalice and any Planeswalker will do the rest

[ESG]

Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

Bingo. Null Rod sees a fair amount of play due to its ability to attack Miracles and Storm. It's worth having cards that are good against it if you're going into a large tournament. Daretti can also kill Delvers.

[Poron]

Daretti solves every problem around apart from Blood Moon. Which is solved by Dimir Signet, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal

Thoughtcast is just stellar as well as Thirst for Knowledge. To discard the legendary stuck Opal in your hand for 3 new cards is just.. wow.

Sure, at that point you can't play Chains which is huge.. something to think about.

Chains can be played with

Impulse
Strategic Planning
Tezzeret, AB

and kills so many decks..

[Lemnear]

On the contrary, I know exactly what I want out of this build. It's none of the things you listed but shares overlapping components of all of them. Try to imagine the possibility you haven't seen everything there is to be seen in this world, and you'll begin to understand this deck is looking to find out if some of the cards have a wider range than the applications they've been used for up til now.

The lack of synergy you refer to between Lodestone Golem and the game plan the deck is seeking to execute is not at all obvious to me. Maybe you can clarify that in a way that isn't going to be just a rehash of the dialogue between ESG and myself on that subject. You're concerned about what exactly - finding a 5th mana source to play a 4 drop out of a deck just shy of 50% mana production with an 8 card cantrip suite that sidesteps all your lock pieces? If so, you're not focusing on the right kinds of details.

The core question is why you even bother with all the artifact lands other than just for Thoughtcast and Mox Opal, given that the Artifact lands do not really help you to power out early Lodestones or Planeswalker (which both not really work well with each other). With all the 0cc cards (Chalice!) and slow Lodestone you also limit your own disruption. I can't see the advantage of Artifact Land and Moxen instead of SolLands and Talisman of Dominance and Dimir Signet which provide more mana per card, enable Chalice @ 0 without harming yourself and you getting less screwed by artifact removal. So if there is a good reason to dismiss the Talisman/Signe/Sol manabase, I would like to hear it.

Another question which needs to be adressed is why this deck should be played instead of 12-Post MUD. Whats the advantage?

[Poron]

This deck doesn't scoop at all to Blood Moon and can play it itself (I would against 12 posts and Eldrazi) which is not secondary.

This deck is able to build walls (Strix, Thopters and Construct) and.. with all the Cook tricks, it's just better to play.

[Lemnear]

This deck doesn't scoop at all to Blood Moon and can play it itself (I would against 12 posts and Eldrazi) which is not secondary.

This deck is able to build walls (Strix, Thopters and Construct) and.. with all the Cook tricks, it's just better to play.

I doubt the artifact land manabase is able to drop Bloodmoon and still play its UB spells

[bruizar]

I doubt the artifact land manabase is able to drop Bloodmoon and still play its UB spells

Agree that the manabaae needs a makeover, probably the ubtezz base with a little more artifact lands to support the moxen

[Lemnear]

Agree that the manabaae needs a makeover, probably the ubtezz base with a little more artifact lands to support the moxen

I question the moxen in the first place. Two Sol Lands + Signet equal 3UB by turn 2 to drop everything from Tezz to Lodestone to Batterskull. I don't see a reason to durdle with Ravager/Walker/Sword if you could go big with AncientTomb/CityOfTraitors/CrystalVein + Talisman/Signet.

The point here is that the manabase has no justification aside Opal/Ravager/Thoughtcast and all three are questionable choices, if your topend manacost is 4 mana and requiring 2 colored mana among them while you 2-for-1 yourself with Diamond Mox. The deck want to play affinity early in the game with a Tezzerator lategame instead of just skipping the early game with the tools the format has to offer with the Sol Lands or Locus-manabase. I miss the justification for running Ravager and Walker instead of other options to build a whole manabase around it, but not going all the way into affinity

[bruizar]

I question the moxen in the first place. Two Sol Lands + Signet equal 3UB by turn 2 to drop everything from Tezz to Lodestone to Batterskull. I don't see a reason to durdle with Ravager/Walker/Sword if you could go big with AncientTomb/CityOfTraitors/CrystalVein + Talisman/Signet.

The point here is that the manabase has no justification aside Opal/Ravager/Thoughtcast and all three are questionable choices, if your topend manacost is 4 mana and requiring 2 colored mana among them while you 2-for-1 yourself with Diamond Mox. The deck want to play affinity early in the game with a Tezzerator lategame instead of just skipping the early game with the tools the format has to offer with the Sol Lands or Locus-manabase. I miss the justification for running Ravager and Walker instead of other options to build a whole manabase around it, but not going all the way into affinity
I don't agree with you here. One of the primary weaknesses of decks like these is that it is extremely soft to Force of Will and especially Spell Pierce. Spell Pierce just hoses high mana curves. I prefer to play with Mox Opal myself for the sole reason that it is easier to get online and does not require a mana investment. 2 mana -> talisman into 4 mana -> tezz into spell pierce just kills you. That's a 6 mana investment and 2 turns gone for a single blue mana.

Mox Opal with artifact lands is an unbelievably underplayed manabase imo. You don't need an artifact heavy deck to profit from artifact lands and Moxen.

[Poron]

I doubt the artifact land manabase is able to drop Bloodmoon and still play its UB spells

2x Dimir Signet
1x Talisman of Dominance
2x Mox Diamond
4x Mox Opal
1 Island

I think we can.
1 basic Island and 1 Mox allow you to drop 100% of your deck under Blood Moon

[Poron]

I don't agree with you here. One of the primary weaknesses of decks like these is that it is extremely soft to Force of Will and especially Spell Pierce. Spell Pierce just hoses high mana curves. I prefer to play with Mox Opal myself for the sole reason that it is easier to get online and does not require a mana investment. 2 mana -> talisman into 4 mana -> tezz into spell pierce just kills you. That's a 6 mana investment and 2 turns gone for a single blue mana.

Mox Opal with artifact lands is an unbelievably underplayed manabase imo. You don't need an artifact heavy deck to profit from artifact lands and Moxen.

So Jace and all noncreature 4cc spells are out of the format? It requires a little set up to play your bombs but it shouldn't be such a issue.

If you have mana constraints just play Sword-Thopter Foundry and grind him for some time.
We play 4 Tezzeret also because sometime we lose one or we just like to use one to make a thopter a 5/5 flyer equipped with Sword of Fire and Ice

[bruizar]

So Jace and all noncreature 4cc spells are out of the format? It requires a little set up to play your bombs but it shouldn't be such a issue.

If you have mana constraints just play Sword-Thopter Foundry and grind him for some time.
We play 4 Tezzeret also because sometime we lose one or we just like to use one to make a thopter a 5/5 flyer equipped with Sword of Fire and Ice

The density of high-CC cards is much higher for UB Tezz then it is for, let's say miracles, so UB-tezz like decks have a harder time fighting against Spell Pierce. I'm not saying Jace is out of the format, but there is a reason there is not a super friends deck in top 8's. This is not a criticism against Tezz or Jace, it's a reminder that Talisman + 4 drops + other 3+ CC non-creatures make the deck weak against the most efficient counterspells the game has to offer.

[Poron]

this deck plays mana stones and 4 Chalice of the Void.

There is no way Spell Pierce can be such an issue.

[monovfox]

oooo this lucks like a lot of fun. Has anyone tested it yet, or is it still in the theorycrafting stage?


Also, why isn't wasteland anywhere in here?

[bruizar]

this deck plays mana stones and 4 Chalice of the Void.

There is no way Spell Pierce can be such an issue.

I know for a fact that it is an issue, ive been playing artifact build exclusively for the last 10 years in legacy and it always is.

[Poron]

oooo this lucks like a lot of fun. Has anyone tested it yet, or is it still in the theorycrafting stage?


Also, why isn't wasteland anywhere in here?

Correct there is no reason not to run mana hate here.
Tsabo's Web and Winter Orb

Planeswalkers do not require mana to work and we play alla those mana stones..

1 Dimir Signet under Blood Moon allows us to play 100% of our deck

[bruizar]

Correct there is no reason not to run mana hate here.
Tsabo's Web and Winter Orb

Planeswalkers do not require mana to work and we play alla those mana stones..

1 Dimir Signet under Blood Moon allows us to play 100% of our deck

Running into blood moon isn't a problem. It's easy to run a couple of fetch lands in addition to artifact lands and sollands. I'd dedicate Blood Moon at least to the SB with so many ways to produce colored mana. In my opinion, the problem is always Spell Pierce and Daze. You invest a lot for a powerful effect, then lose to efficient answers. THat's why I advocate using high CC cards sparingly even though you have access to SOl lands, etc. Another good way to lose is to get your sol land wasted after you drop a Talisman or something. Usually, you keep the hand because you have the perfect combination of fast mana in the form of Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors + high impact (high CC cards) to leverage it, but that is not so good anymore if you lose access to your solland before you play a relevant threat. Worst, is eating wasteland on Ancient Tomb and then getting Dazed and Delvered out.

I believe whatever artifact centric deck you play, you must be able to address this weakness. THis is the core of why they say that "MUD"(or any other artifact deck) loses to itself.

[Poron]

Guys, this deck doesn't play anything in opponent's turn but FoW.

Against anything but combo we can side it out and play 4 Defense Grid

[Snake Pliskan]

Running into blood moon isn't a problem. It's easy to run a couple of fetch lands in addition to artifact lands and sollands. I'd dedicate Blood Moon at least to the SB with so many ways to produce colored mana. In my opinion, the problem is always Spell Pierce and Daze. You invest a lot for a powerful effect, then lose to efficient answers. THat's why I advocate using high CC cards sparingly even though you have access to SOl lands, etc. Another good way to lose is to get your sol land wasted after you drop a Talisman or something. Usually, you keep the hand because you have the perfect combination of fast mana in the form of Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors + high impact (high CC cards) to leverage it, but that is not so good anymore if you lose access to your solland before you play a relevant threat. Worst, is eating wasteland on Ancient Tomb and then getting Dazed and Delvered out.

I believe whatever artifact centric deck you play, you must be able to address this weakness. THis is the core of why they say that "MUD"(or any other artifact deck) loses to itself.

I can corroborate all the points bruizar raised about the weaknesses of most of the conventional ways of building an artifact ramp mana base. Finding a way to minimize those drawbacks is one of the driving forces behind the direction I took with the mana base of this deck. The goal is efficient deployment of the powerful top end spells in great enough quantity to maintain threat density, without opening it up to a high risk of stranding cards in hand or being soft to taxing permission. To that end, much of the card choices are going to have to be selected in order to have a large number of 2 mana plays that impact the game at the time of casting them.

[Lemnear]

I can corroborate all the points bruizar raised about the weaknesses of most of the conventional ways of building an artifact ramp mana base. Finding a way to minimize those drawbacks is one of the driving forces behind the direction I took with the mana base of this deck. The goal is efficient deployment of the powerful top end spells in great enough quantity to maintain threat density, without opening it up to a high risk of stranding cards in hand or being soft to taxing permission. To that end, much of the card choices are going to have to be selected in order to have a large number of 2 mana plays that impact the game at the time of casting them.

you "minimize drawbacks" by running 2-for-1 manasources like Diamond Moxen and expect to reach 4+ mana that way in a reasonable time to ACTUALLY PLAY your planeswalkers (talking about stranded cards in hand) not to talk about getting them past Daze/Pierce/etc?

Care to adress the questions on the last page?

[Snake Pliskan]

you "minimize drawbacks" by running 2-for-1 manasources like Diamond Moxen and expect to reach 4+ mana that way in a reasonable time to ACTUALLY PLAY your planeswalkers (talking about stranded cards in hand) not to talk about getting them past Daze/Pierce/etc?

Care to adress the questions on the last page?
You'll have to point out exactly which question on the last page you are referring to. As for the question above, the answer is absolutely yes. Ancient Tomb and Thoughtcast are both raw 2 for 1s in the deck's favor that serve to immediately recoup resources used to accelerate mana. Every one of the top end threats replaces card economy invested in getting them into play as well. Lodestone generates virtual card economy as long as it remains in play, by acting as one stone rain per spell cast by the opponent per turn. The plansewalkers represent a continuous source of card advantage starting the turn they hit the battlefield, for as long as they remain in play, and the sword does the same the moment it connects the first time. It's well worth spending additional cards to accelerate mana or protect your position with Force, when all the investments immediately give a return on the capital.

[Lemnear]

You'll have to point out exactly which question on the last page you are referring to. As for the question above, the answer is absolutely yes. Ancient Tomb and Thoughtcast are both raw 2 for 1s in the deck's favor that serve to immediately recoup resources used to accelerate mana. Every one of the top end threats replaces card economy invested in getting them into play as well. Lodestone generates virtual card economy as long as it remains in play, by acting as one stone rain per spell cast by the opponent per turn. The plansewalkers represent a continuous source of card advantage starting the turn they hit the battlefield, for as long as they remain in play, and the sword does the same the moment it connects the first time. It's well worth spending additional cards to accelerate mana or protect your position with Force, when all the investments immediately give a return on the capital.

Its nice that you see as given that all those card resolve and you draw all your cards in perfect order. Its a nice tempo play to throw your 4 mana Lodestone into a 0 mana Daze or see your SeaOfTheSynod/MoxDiamond/MoxOpal which requires 4 cards invesgment being destroyed by a single wasteland targeting the Seat so your 4 cards investment still only wield 1 mere mana in the end.

I obviously talk about my questions in regards to the manabase with all the problems also outlined in this post again.

[Snake Pliskan]

Its nice that you see as given that all those card resolve and you draw all your cards in perfect order. Its a nice tempo play to throw your 4 mana Lodestone into a 0 mana Daze or see your SeaOfTheSynod/MoxDiamond/MoxOpal which requires 4 cards invesgment being destroyed by a single wasteland targeting the Seat so your 4 cards investment still only wield 1 mere mana in the end.

I obviously talk about my questions in regards to the manabase with all the problems also outlined in this post again.
Why would one ever sequence their plays in a way as to invite such obvious potential disaster? As far as I can tell you have yet to outline a single concept that is in any way related to the discussion in this thread. I'm happy to have a conversation with anyone who has.

[Lemnear]

Why would one ever sequence their plays in a way as to invite such obvious potential disaster? As far as I can tell you have yet to outline a single concept that is in any way related to the discussion in this thread. I'm happy to have a conversation with anyone who has.

I did outline that your manabase sucks ass and how to fix it to support 4cc double color spells like Tezz as early as turn 2. Thats probably more work put into the deck than you did. Have you even tested your pile before dropping your list or jumped straight to praising how awesome it is to have Ravager building a massive Hangarback Walker because you asume all potenial opponents are goldfishes which let you play 10+ turns without resistance?

[Snake Pliskan]

Look, man, it's quite clear that you think the mana in this deck sucks ass. Repeating that over and over doesn't forward the discussion. You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but there is no way to have a productive exchange with someone who is being insulting and argumentative for it's own sake and making vague assertions without offering any concrete support behind them. I'm not interested in that. I'll make it clear one more time. Testing went into the project before the thought ever crossed my mind to share the list in any public forum, so I'm not speaking from a purely theoretical perspective about it. If you're at all representative of the quality of discussion I can expect to engage in, I doub't I'll offer up anything to the board after this. Fortunately, from the tone and substance of almost every other person who joined the conversation, I think I can safely expect a lot more out of the majority.

[bruizar]

Look, man, it's quite clear that you think the mana in this deck sucks ass. Repeating that over and over doesn't forward the discussion. You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but there is no way to have a productive exchange with someone who is being insulting and argumentative for it's own sake and making vague assertions without offering any concrete support behind them. I'm not interested in that. I'll make it clear one more time. Testing went into the project before the thought ever crossed my mind to share the list in any public forum, so I'm not speaking from a purely theoretical perspective about it. If you're at all representative of the quality of discussion I can expect to engage in, I doub't I'll offer up anything to the board after this. Fortunately, from the tone and substance of almost every other person who joined the conversation, I think I can safely expect a lot more out of the majority.

Thats just lemnear..

Id rethinj the 2 fows. I think those slots are better used differebtly. The probability to grab them in your opener are so low that it isnt reliably showing up against combo. I understand you dont want to keep mana open for counterspells, but pitching cards is a little wasteful even thoughbu have thoughtcast and planeswalkers to get some CA going

[Lemnear]

Look, man, it's quite clear that you think the mana in this deck sucks ass. Repeating that over and over doesn't forward the discussion. You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but there is no way to have a productive exchange with someone who is being insulting and argumentative for it's own sake and making vague assertions without offering any concrete support behind them.

I have you distinctive examples of issues with your manabase and how a Sol Land manabase Ramps you to 4+ mana toget past Daze and skip your early game of Ravager and Co in favor of more powerful threats like Batterskull. I pointed you to your mere 6 ways of dropping Chalice @ 1 turn 1 (4 Tombs, 2 Diamonds) and set them into relation with a manabase containing up to 12 Sol Lands to drop Chalice.

And what do you do? You claim I "add nothing to the discussion" and wonder why the tone wents down the Drain? Excuse me? When I pointed you again to the manabase, you just ignore the whole topic and tell us how good a resolved Lodestone and Co is, but don't even spend a single word on how you wanna deploy all these cards on the battlefield in the first place, neither why you choose Ravager/Hangarback over other threats or lock components like Phyrexian Revoker. I am not convinced at this point that you are actually interrested in critical Feedback to improve the deck as a whole, but within the "Affinity with Planeswalkers" concept you choose at best.


Testing went into the project before the thought ever crossed my mind to share the list in any public forum, so I'm not speaking from a purely theoretical perspective about it.

It would have killed you to talk about that in your opening post and discuss with us what the issues of the deck are against the top tier decks of the format. The presence of Daze and Wasteland is nothing which seems to bother you for your deckbuilding and discussion (respective: the lack of) for whatever reason. How you want to reliable ight back combo decks with only 4 SolLands to drop Chalice or accelerate Lodestone on the battlefield, 2 FoW and low blue-count is something your testing should have given you at least some question marks. These are important aspects to consider for viable Legacy decks.


If you're at all representative of the quality of discussion I can expect to engage in, I doub't I'll offer up anything to the board after this. Fortunately, from the tone and substance of almost every other person who joined the conversation, I think I can safely expect a lot more out of the majority.

Other users did point you to Wasteland, Daze and the Manabase in general too in case you ignored those as well

[IOWA]

Hello everyone :)

Is there any update about this deck development ?

Have you concidered Crucible of Worlds ?

[Snake Pliskan]

Hello everyone :)

Is there any update about this deck development ?

Have you concidered Crucible of Worlds ?Yeah I revisited the deck when walking ballista was printed and reconfigured the list to start 4. It's been a big upgrade and possibly enough to make the deck legitimately viable.

I've considered crucible. It doesn't do enough considering how the mana base is set up. There aren't any wastelands or other utility land to leverage. Indestructible citadels do a lot of the work of protecting your mana base and producing hard to remove man land with tezzeret. Beyond that the deck is geared to play through opposing mana denial with careful sequencing of moxen and by drawing out of it with strix and thoughtcast. Crucible can't really add much in the way of mana protection that thoughtcast doesn't do in general. I'm pretty quick to put crucible into legacy and vintage decks when I can, but it just isn't a great fit for this deck.

edit: Crucible's value drops even further given that many of the wasteland decks out there right now have deathrite shamans to disrupt it. Unfortunately, since I like myself a crucible more than most.

[Snake Pliskan]

Last I picked up the deck I was running the following. Ballista basically ties a lot of the various elements of the deck together and provides a mana sink, battlefield control and a finisher all in one package that's fetchable with trinket mage. It obsoleted the need for using equipment in the deck and is a vast upgrade to the masticores I previously had in the board as a threat with continuous board suppression capability. It allowed for consolidation and upgrading of many deck slots. One of the cascading effects was being able to have the luxury of starting all 4 copies of FOW in the board where they rightly belong.

4 ancient tomb
2 polluted delta
2 underground sea
1 island
4 darksteel citadel
4 vault of whispers
4 seat of the synod

4 mox opal
2 mox diamond

4 thougthcast
4 chalice of the void
1 engineered explosives

4 baleful strix
4 arcbound ravager
4 walking ballista
2 hangarback walker
2 trinket mage
4 lodestone golem

3 tezzeret agent
1 jace better than all

SB
4 FOW
4 tormod's crypt
4 phyrexian revoker
1 toxic deluge
1 opposition
1 jace better than all