Cant keep track of gamestate.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

https://i.redd.it/80n3rgl5z1lx.jpg

What happens if I cant do the math on how many tokens will enter the battlefield.

[cdr]

What happens if I cant do the math on how many tokens will enter the battlefield.

There is no such thing as "can't". It's your responsibility to keep track. Judges can answer questions about how the interaction works, but then it's up to you.

If you fail to keep track, you will get a Warning for Game Rule Violation each time. The third and subsequent Game Rule Violation penalties upgrade to Game Loss.

[jrsthethird]

Doubling Season will be a 5/5. Progenitor Mimic will enter as a 5/5 copy of Doubling Season. At the beginning of your upkeep you will get 3x 5/5 Doubling Season tokens; on the next turn you'd get 6 and so on.

Not quite. Each copy of Doubling Season doubles the amount of tokens (effectively 2^x times the number of tokens, where x = the number of Doubling Seasons you control). So with 2 Seasons, you get 4 (2^2) tokens. Next turn you'll have 6 Doubling Seasons (original + Mimic + 4 tokens), which gives you 2^6, or 64 tokens. The next turn, you'll have 70 Doubling Seasons, which gives you 2^70, or 1.18 sextillion tokens (1.18x10^21).

At this point, better hope they don't destroy your Opalescence.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

There is no such thing as "can't". It's your responsibility to keep track. Judges can answer questions about how the interaction works, but then it's up to you.

If you fail to keep track, you will get a Warning for Game Rule Violation each time. The third and subsequent Game Rule Violation penalties upgrade to Game Loss.

So what if I donate/harmless offer the combo to my opponent and let him solve 2^1.18 sextillion? He can always concede but if he doesnt.

[Mr Miagi]

So what if I donate/harmless offer the combo to my opponent and let him solve 2^1.18 sextillion? He can always concede but if he doesnt.

LOOOOOOOOOL :laugh:

oponent be like "blue screen" fatal error

[Julian23]

If I was the opponent, I'd just be like "I have <stupid number> of tokens". I mean, if you couldn't figure out the exact number, how would you contest whatever number your opponent arrived at ;-)

[jedi_gof]

well since you play the obscure combo, not your opponent, he should at least be able to get judge assistance on it.
Thing is if you play a strange combo like this, with high level maths applied I am pretty sure it is assumed you understand at have to be able to keep track of the gamestate, where as your opp is not the designer of the wonky comby and shoud be eligble to receive aid from judges. Not a judge though

[Julian23]

There is no difference between players when it comes to being "eligible" to receive help from a judge. The only difference is what kind of help a judge will offer, not to whom. If cdr says a judge will not help you calculate the exact number of tokens, he wouldn't help either player, no matter who brought the combo or who's controlling it right now.

[cdr]

Judges will probably try to help you, just like (say) you caused a life total discrepancy, but you're still getting a Warning.

Recording the number of tokens as 2^X is fine, and that should be easy to keep track of. If 5 die, it can be 2^X - 5.

The chances of this situation ever happening are pretty much zero, also. If you can't win with 2^6 tokens, you deserve penalties.

[nedleeds]

Judges will probably try to help you, just like (say) you caused a life total discrepancy, but you're still getting a Warning.

Recording the number of tokens as 2^X is fine, and that should be easy to keep track of. If 5 die, it can be 2^X - 5.

The chances of this situation ever happening are pretty much zero, also. If you can't win with 2^6 tokens, you deserve penalties.

I have a Moat out. It's also a 4/4.

[jrsthethird]

I have a Moat out. It's also a 4/4.

XD

[Ace/Homebrew]

I have a Moat out. It's also a 4/4.

HdH would have to play Pandemonium then. :tongue:
2^X times 5 damage should be enough, right?

[TsumiBand]

The more general question of "can I generate a game state that's incredibly complex and force my opponent to track it at their own detriment" is probably more or less handled primarily by the massed missed triggers rulings that we've had over the last several years. Whatever the state of that is at this point. vOv

[Varal]

What if opponent attack with Altar Golem and cast Fighting Chances after block? (Maybe he Echoing Truthed his Moat.)



Is the tournament cancelled?

[Fox]

Not quite. Each copy of Doubling Season doubles the amount of tokens (effectively 2^x times the number of tokens, where x = the number of Doubling Seasons you control). So with 2 Seasons, you get 4 (2^2) tokens. Next turn you'll have 6 Doubling Seasons (original + Mimic + 4 tokens), which gives you 2^6, or 64 tokens. The next turn, you'll have 70 Doubling Seasons, which gives you 2^70, or 1.18 sextillion tokens (1.18x10^21).

At this point, better hope they don't destroy your Opalescence.
Haha, nice catch. Ya looks like it goes into log phase pretty quickly.

[MaximumC]

What if opponent attack with Altar Golem and cast Fighting Chances after block? (Maybe he Echoing Truthed his Moat.)

Is the tournament cancelled?

That's an interesting question, and raises an interesting point!

Player 1: I combo off with Kikki-Pestermite; short cut to a million tokens.
Player 2: I will do exactly the same thing, making as many tokens as you. As non-active player, I can always win this race.
Player 1: Fine. I'll attack with my million tokens.
Player 2: I block each of your tokens with one of mine. And... I now cast Fighting Chance

What do the Rules say about this? Shockingly little, I think. It's not a loop because you're not returning to the same game state and making a new decision; you're resolving an effect. You can't just do an informal shortcut because the outcome is indeterminate. So, you gotta do it. Only, if you did it, then the whole tournament would end in a catastrophe. So clearly, that cannot happen. But, what can the judges do? Slow Play penalty does not appear to apply on its face (no loops involved, no unreasonable pace of play involved). I suppose someone could whip up a computer program that rolls X number of dice and counts the even numbers or something, but failing that, what part of the Comp. Rules or IPG would authorize stepping in?

[cdr]

That's an interesting question, and raises an interesting point!

Player 1: I combo off with Kikki-Pestermite; short cut to a million tokens.
Player 2: I will do exactly the same thing, making as many tokens as you. As non-active player, I can always win this race.
Player 1: Fine. I'll attack with my million tokens.
Player 2: I block each of your tokens with one of mine. And... I now cast Fighting Chance

What do the Rules say about this? Shockingly little, I think. It's not a loop because you're not returning to the same game state and making a new decision; you're resolving an effect. You can't just do an informal shortcut because the outcome is indeterminate. So, you gotta do it. Only, if you did it, then the whole tournament would end in a catastrophe. So clearly, that cannot happen. But, what can the judges do? Slow Play penalty does not appear to apply on its face (no loops involved, no unreasonable pace of play involved). I suppose someone could whip up a computer program that rolls X number of dice and counts the even numbers or something, but failing that, what part of the Comp. Rules or IPG would authorize stepping in?

Judges are free to declare a game a draw if a gamestate occurs that cannot be resolved in a reasonable amount of time.

Mathematical models are allowed if pre-approved by the head judge.

I don't think there's any specific written rule for these policies since it's an extreme corner case, but it pretty much follows from loop rules / 104.4b.