A Very Dubious Legacy Deck

[Cire]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/127/269/636092759293834431.png

Dubious Challenge is a bad card.

If you don't understand what it does . . . it . . . well basically, gives your opponent the best creature from the top 10 cards of your library and gives you the second best card from the top of your library.

However, it combos well with the following two cards: Homeward Path and Brooding Saurian.
With Homeward Path it is a 5 mana two card combo that says: Get the best two creatures from the top ten cards of your library.
With Brood Saurian it is a 4 mana one card combo that says: if brooding saurian is in the top ten cards of your library, get the best creature from the top ten cards of your library. If not, lose the game.
So even knowing it is a bad card, I was interested in seeing if we can make the above combos work. Let's get brewing!

I immediately thought of adding in S&T into the deck. Afterall, Dubious challenge requires you to run a lot of big guys that would otherwise be gumming up your hand. So with S&T in the deck, and thus blue, we get FOW and Brainstorm. Additionally, since we are playing green - and with this type of Glass Cannon deck I thought about adding in enough mana acceleration to aim for a turn 3 Dubious Challenge/Homeward Path drop (so needing 3G mana without the 3rd land drop). So my initial list was this over stuffed package:
4 Brooding Saurian
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Show and Tell
4 Dubious Challenge
4 Lotus Petal

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Homeward Path
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest

2 Forest
2 Island
There are a couple ways to refine this further. . . the first of which is figuring out the math of Dubious Challenge. Do we really need to run 4 of the lizard and path? Assuming you drew 1 Lizard, by turn 3, you have around 48% chance of hitting a wild Saurian in the top 10 cards of your library (=1-HYPGEOMDIST(0,10,3,51)). Additionally, you would have a 51% chance of having a Homeward path by turn 3. Now. . . I know you can't just add those percentages - but they look pretty good to me. The issue, then is then how could we improve it and should we? The two cards that can help are: Crop Rotation and Worldly Tutor. Tutor can search up Saurian the turn of and then combo off (You can search up the path the turn before, but not the saurian the turn before). Worldly tutor can increase the consistency of the combo. Additionally, if you used Brainstorm to off load a Saurian, you can use the tutor to get that Emrakul instead of the Griselbrand if you want. So at this point, I sort of want to fit in some tutors. The Crop rotation, is also interesting, in that it can be used to search up Path AND it can be used as G: add 2 mana to your mana pool through the use of Ancient tomb. This means we can potentially cut down our accel.

The second thing we have to do, is to figure out the math of FOW. FOW requires, usually, AT LEAST 18 blue cards in the deck to run properly. So far we run 12. We need to fit at least 6 more blue cards into the deck. The quickest way to do this is to replace our Griselbrand with a blue beater, probably Progentius. We will still need to find room for at least 2 more blue cards.

Finally, the big issue is STP and other instant speed removal. If a player removes the Saurian before the end of turn, you lose the game. FOW can be used as protection, but we need at least 3 more protection spells.


4 Brood Saurian
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progentius
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Show and Tell
4 Dubious Challenge
3 Daze
2 Crop Rotation
2 Lotus Petal
1 Worldly tutor

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Homeward Path

2 Forest
2 Island


Again, most of this is just for fun, and I doubt the deck can get around the many problems it has.

[Captain Hammer]

Very cool deck idea. I love it.

One suggestion I would make to your first list is to make room for...
3 Natural Order - Increases your consistency of comboing out.
1 Progenitus
1 Worldspine Wurm
-2 Griselbrand


Hell you could easily go monogreen and make this a fun tier 2-3 budget deck...


4 Brooding Saurian
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Progenitus
1 Worldspine Wurm

1 Worldly Tutor
2 Crop Rotation
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Choke
4 Natural Order
4 Dubious Challenge
4 Lotus Petal

2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Homeward Path
10 Forest

[Poron]

these decks want Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere and Natural Order turn 3 to seal the deal.

Also Blastoderm can be a worth addition

[bruizar]

Is there maybe a creature that ETB tutors a land into play? That way you can get Homeward Path from the Dubious Challenge.

[CabalTherapy]

Is there maybe a creature that ETB tutors a land into play? That way you can get Homeward Path from the Dubious Challenge.

Lol:
http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/primeval-titan.png
but tapped...

[adrieng]

I am on that and it seems not so bad :
If you want to play at least 12 fatty you want them to be castable :





4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
1 Forest
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depth
4 Homeward Path

4 Dubious Challenge
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan scrying

4 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Inferno Titan

4 Orcish Lumberjack
4 Tinder Wall
4 Lotus Petal
4 Grim Monolith



The deck is way too fagile from testing against tempo. I get destroyed.

I edited cause i think the depth combo with crop+scrying is better than brand and it just needs a little switch here

[Captain Hammer]

I am on that and it seems not so bad :
If you want to play at least 12 fatty you want them to be castable :





4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Homeward Path

4 Dubious Challenge
4 Crop Rotation
4 Brand

4 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Inferno Titan

4 Orcish Lumberjack
4 Tinder Wall
3 Lotus Petal
4 Grim Monolith

4 Sensei's Divining Top





I would play Brooding Saurion, and possibly Birds of Paradise + Natural Order + 1 Progenitus in that list.

[Ingo]

I am on that and it seems not so bad :
If you want to play at least 12 fatty you want them to be castable :


How about the hunted creatures (hunted horror, hunted dragon, hunted troll, ...)
You wouldn't necessarily need to build solely around dubious challenge, as hunted critter + brand/Homeward Path works nicely too.

[apple713]

How about the hunted creatures (hunted horror, hunted dragon, hunted troll, ...)
You wouldn't necessarily need to build solely around dubious challenge, as hunted critter + brand/Homeward Path works nicely too.

You probably don't need dubious challenge to make hunted cards + brooding saurian / homeward path good. Best case scenario you save like 4 mana for two hunted dragons.Even then you still need a saurian + homeward path

[adrieng]

The hunted stuff creature + brand/homeward path doesn't work any longuer cause the owner and controller of the token is the opponent

[Ingo]

The hunted stuff creature + brand/homeward path doesn't work any longuer cause the owner and controller of the token is the opponent

Just read the Oracle text, you're correct it's now the opponent who puts the tokens into play... Nevermind then.

[Fox]

Just go old school and bring out the elder dragon legends (it's not like any opponent can actually meet those upkeep mana costs). :laugh:
On a more serious note, there are a number of creatures out there that have really weird stipulations as they ETB, horrifying upkeep costs (to the point of being a wincon, such that opponent cannot choose it), unusability clauses (like Ichorid or "champion an X creature type"), etc... which may be worth thinking about. Has anyone thought about a Bitterblossom approach to this deck?

[rufus]

Lol:
...
but tapped...

There's also Ulvenwald Hydra. With all 8 in the deck there's roughly a 79% chance of hitting at least one, more if you're running brainstorm and friends.


So you could run:


Ulvenwald Hydra
Primeval Titan


And then some utility stuff like

Flickerwisp
Dack's Duplicate
Phantasmal Image
Phyrexian Metamorph
Murk Strider
Palace Jailer
Admonition Angel
Kederket Leviathan
Brooding Saurian
Angel of Serenity


Because you really want 20 creatures in order to hit 2 reliably.

[slave]

If I was going to run this, I'd consider Green/Black for Dark Ritual. A stompy approach might work?
Dark Rits, Petals, Elvish SPirit Guide etc. allows a fast start. It allows decent Chalice/Sphere/taxing plays on T1 to nerf the decks that are faster.
BG also has access to sweepers to get rid of weenies like Deed.

Either that, or you could pop Dubious into a generic Donate style deck?

[rufus]

This is more of a SCD kind of post, but also a SCD kind of thread so...

The chance to hit 2 critters in 10 reliably isn't that great.

60% at 11 creatures.
70% at 13 creatures.
80% at 16 creatures.
90% at 20 creatures.

And deck thinning has a marginal impact.

That means if we're planning to hit naked Dubious Challenges we need to field a large number of creatures. Enough that they're very likely to cards in hand.

If, instead, the deck uses tutors like Worldly Tutor guarantee the first hit, then the probabilities are:

60% at 5-6 creatures
70% at 7 creatures
80% at 9 creatures
90% at 12 creatures

Since Dubious Challenge is very expensive to cast, the deck really wants tutors that can put stuff into the library in a way that survives card draw for a turn like Long Term Plans, Congregation at Dawn, Lum-Dul's Vault or Insidious Dreams. I didn't find any others except for Doomsday. Congregation allows for the tightest creature package, but I'm not sure a single tutor plan is viable.

Using tutors means that the combo is significantly costlier (2 cards and more mana) but the package is much tighter.

[rufus]

Something subtle that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that if the opponent chooses a creature to put into play under his own control, then that creature comes into play first. (This is different from many other 'similar' effects where the player's card comes into play first, or it's simultaneous.)

That asymmetry matters because it means that ETB triggers on the creature that the opponent picks can't target the creature you put into play, and Clone effects from the opponent can't copy the body you get. So stuff like Dragonlord Silumgar breaks the symmetry a little.

Another category of cards that can break the symmetry is ones that use resources in your library. Primeval Titan has already been mentioned, but there are others like Grozoth,General Tazri and Boonweaver Giant that involve more specific categories of cards, but I'm not sure any of those offer game-winning opportunities.

[H]

Something subtle that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that if the opponent chooses a creature to put into play under his own control, then that creature comes into play first. (This is different from many other 'similar' effects where the player's card comes into play first, or it's simultaneous.)

That asymmetry matters because it means that ETB triggers on the creature that the opponent picks can't target the creature you put into play, and Clone effects from the opponent can't copy the body you get. So stuff like Dragonlord Silumgar breaks the symmetry a little.

While I believe you are correct on Clone, I am pretty sure you are wrong on Dragonlord, because the ability will not be put onto the stack until Dubious Challenger is done resolving, at which point both creatures will be on the battlefield.

[rufus]

While I believe you are correct on Clone, I am pretty sure you are wrong on Dragonlord, because the ability will not be put onto the stack until Dubious Challenger is done resolving, at which point both creatures will be on the battlefield.

Thanks for the correction.

[Cire]

We can always run Flickerwisp? If opponent gets the creature first, and you exile Emrakul and Flickerwisp, if they pick Emmy, you flicker it and get it back EOT, so there best bet is choosing Flickerwisp.

Using your math . . . aiming for 90% we need at least what. . . 10 "Win Targets" and 10 "Combo" pieces off a naked Dubious Challenge.

What about the following?

4 Flickerwisp
4 Brooding Saurian
2 Glimmerpoint Stag
10 Win Targets

---

Edit: if we are going the stompy route . . . I guess the deck will look something like:

28 - "Combo"
4 Show and Tell
4 Dubious Challenge
4 Flickerwisp
4 Brooding Saurian
2 Glimmerpoint Stag
10 Win Targets

8 - Prison Pieces
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice

24 - Land and Accel
8 Other lands
8 Sol Lands
8 Accel


This is more of a SCD kind of post, but also a SCD kind of thread so...

You got that right :tongue:

[rufus]

We can always run Flickerwisp? If opponent gets the creature first, and you exile Emrakul and Flickerwisp, if they pick Emmy, you flicker it and get it back EOT, so their best bet is choosing Flickerwisp.

Using your math . . . aiming for 90% we need at least what. . . 10 "Win Targets" and 10 "Combo" pieces off a naked Dubious Challenge.


Now you're talking about an A/B combo since hitting 2x Emrakul is bad news, and 2x Flickerwisp is underwhelming.

To have a 90% chance to get at least 1 of A and at least 1 of B, you need to have about a 95% chance for each individually. That would be about 14 of each card.

11 of each gets you a ~80% chance to hit A/B.
9 of each gets you a ~70% chance to hit A/B

[rufus]

So, what about a slightly less ambitious game plan...


4 Dubious Challenge
4 Collected Company
4 Sliver Legion
4 Might Sliver
2 Fury Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
...

[Cire]

Now you're talking about an A/B combo since hitting 2x Emrakul is bad news, and 2x Flickerwisp is underwhelming.

To have a 90% chance to get at least 1 of A and at least 1 of B, you need to have about a 95% chance for each individually. That would be about 14 of each card.

11 of each gets you a ~80% chance to hit A/B.
9 of each gets you a ~70% chance to hit A/B

So the above list is, I'm guessing, ~75%?

Here's a thought without looking at an exact deck list. . . is the following worth it (and if not what should the percentages be to make it worth it, and if you can't get percentages up to that level, what level should protection be)?
No protection
70% that by turn 2, to has Show and Tell or Dubious Challenge in hand
Having 70% chance of having the accel to cast Dubious Challenge turn 2
On turn 2, Show and Tell has 80% chance of getting you big guy
On turn 2, Dubious Challenge has 75% chance of getting you "combo"
(the presumed list for the above would be 10 "combo" creatures, 10 "big creatures", 8 "S&T/DC", 16 accel (including sol lands), 10 other lands, 4 "Blank")

[maharis]

This deck would be worth it just to watch the opponent read Dubious Challenge and Brooding Saurian.

[Cire]

This deck would be worth it just to watch the opponent read Dubious Challenge and Brooding Saurian.

Ha, yes . . . yes it would. :laugh::tongue:

[apple713]

So, what about a slightly less ambitious game plan...


4 Dubious Challenge
4 Collected Company
4 Sliver Legion
4 Might Sliver
2 Fury Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
...



Sliver Overlord comes to mind if you go this route

[rufus]

Sliver Overlord comes to mind if you go this route

Seems risky since that would allow the opponent to start stealing slivers.

...

OK, let's suppose you could stack the deck with Congregation at Dawn or something similar. What's the best pair of creatures that could be set up with dubious challenge?

[Cire]

...

OK, let's suppose you could stack the deck with Congregation at Dawn or something similar. What's the best pair of creatures that could be set up with dubious challenge?

1) ESG (which you draw, and use to cast Challenge)
2-3) Emrakul and Flickerwisp (Flicker > Brooding Saurian, since opp can't STP the Wisp and keep Emrakul)

"combo" only requires 6 mana, since the combo itself provides the 7th.

[rufus]

1) ESG (which you draw, and use to cast Challenge)
2-3) Emrakul and Flickerwisp (Flicker > Brooding Saurian, since opp can't STP the Wisp and keep Emrakul)

"combo" only requires 6 mana, since the combo itself provides the 7th.

That makes me think this might have more merit as a modern concept - if you swap ESG for SSG all the pieces are modern legal.

[Cire]

That makes me think this might have more merit as a modern concept - if you swap ESG for SSG all the pieces are modern legal.

Well . . . this is a very dubious legacy deck.

That said, I doubt this can work in Modern, since the best they have for stuff in hand is Through the Breach, while we have S&T.

[slave]

OK, let's suppose you could stack the deck with Congregation at Dawn or something similar. What's the best pair of creatures that could be set up with dubious challenge?
Best? Tough question against an unknown opponent, there's just so many damn variables, but the bigger the better I suppose.
Obviously Bronze Bombshell & Steel Golem are not what we should be suggesting :tongue:

I see a reason to go with Primeval Titan, given it can search up a Path on entering, but the fact you can't tap it to immediately to get back the other Titan does hurt this plan. I can't think of any creature that can fetch up a Path when it enters the field, without giving your opponent a massive advantage, like Rune-Scarred Demon would.
Honestly, if you have a Homeward Path on the field, I'd look to creatures that just nuke your opponents ability to really answer your two beaters on the field.
Sire of Insanity &/or Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur can do some damage.

Personally, I see Homeward Path as critical to the deck, much more so than Brooding Saurian.
Having something like Boseiju, Who Shelters All to make sure Dubious actually resolves might be worth it, but this would require some sort of focus on lands in the deck - maybe Crop Rotation, Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map etc.
This sort of focus could enable Knight of the Reliquery but I wouldn't take the deck that direction myself.

[AlterEgo]

If I could give all my creatures haste, I'd take 2x Leveler. Now THAT is what I call style!

Well, no - because StP is a thing, but I had to say it.

[slave]

If I could give all my creatures haste, I'd take 2x Leveler. Now THAT is what I call style!

Well, no - because StP is a thing, but I had to say it.
Actually, you're onto something there.
Leveler & Laboratory Maniac is a combo we might potentially abuse. But even with instant/cycling speed draw, this is still open to Swords to Plowshares if played at the right time....

[Navsi]

Hushwing Gryff + some creatures with negative ETBs?

If they take Gryff, it comes in first, so you get the big guys without the negatives.

If they take the big guy, they come in first, so they take the penalties.

If they take neither, you get them both, so no negative triggers for you.

Phage the Untouchable / Leveler / Eater of Days / whatever? Maybe with Torpor Orb for backup when just casting the guys.

[Echelon]

Phage + Gryff is pretty fucking epic.

[rufus]

I'm not sure it's any good, but you could go with the Malfegor,Sire of Insanity,Bedlam Reveler package and then madness, flashback, or recursion to exploit the discard side of the equation.

[slave]

Desolation Angel

Given that you're holding a Homeward Path in hand, or a Crop Rotation and a Forest (options), you could grab the opponents' angel on your next turn for an Armegeddon with two 5/4 angels?
Sound good enough?

Search up for two of this sucker, GET DUBIOUS! I can't envisage an uninterruptable scenario where you get a one-sided Armageddon and you get two 5/4's with flying, all on the same turn, but I'm sure there's a complicated way to make this work.
I'm thinking you'd simply drop a tutor to stack two angels in the top10, get dubious, then Armageddon, next turn you drop a Path and have a one-sided creature advantage. Sounds a bit fragile, but playable.

ANother option, which lets you keep your lands (and your opponent theirs) is Desolation Giant
It doesn't let us play with the lizard creature, and it's considerably weaker, so there's that.

[Cave]

If i'm understanding the card correctly, I think you should not play Griselbrand in this deck, because you're giving your opponent massive opportunities to find a solution.

[rufus]

If i'm understanding the card correctly, I think you should not play Griselbrand in this deck, because you're giving your opponent massive opportunities to find a solution.

Probably not. The thing is Griselbrand's ability is a payoff that's worth taking a pretty big risk for.

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

Last friday I played dubious challenge to a 3-1 victory making top 4 at my local fnm. Beating imperial painter, pox, and reanimator. Lost to burn. My list from memory:


4 deathrite shaman
2 Elvish spirit guide
2 glimmerpoint stag
2 emrakul, the aeons torn

4 abrupt decay
4 swords to plowshares
4 congregation at dawn
4 dubious challenge
3 painful truths
3 pernicious deed
2 liliana of the veil
3 thoughtseize

4 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
4 windswept heath
2 verdant catacombs
5 forest
2 plains
3 swamp

SB
4 pithing needle
4 engineered plague
3 leyline of the void
4 silence


The deck ran alright. Its a control deck with a wonky combo thrown in. Be aware my meta changes every week and is 50% crazy/budget decks. This list best represents what I can do to hold off a large smattering of every deck type. Obviously this wont work everywhere. My only loss was to burn and it was a rough one. Timely Reinforcements will probably be what I need to hold on long enough for victory. My normal pile for congregation is esg on top then stag then emmy. Drawing the esg for your 4th mana is important against wastelands. All in all its a super fun deck and no one expects it. You wont win every friday but its good enough for a laugh.

[Cire]

Wow! Glad you had the balls to play this at a FNM and did well! Congrats!

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

Thanks! I'll go over my card choices here so people can discuss my list if they'd like.


Deathrite Shaman: A real workhorse. Gets in incremental damage when all the pieces aren't available yet. Gains you life and at the same time exiles reanimator targets. Need a 4th mana to challenge? He's your guy.

Elvish Spirit Guide: Originally played 4 to help with mana acceleration. I realized I only needed it to get that 4th mana after casting congregation at dawn. Cut to 2.

Glimmerpoint Stag: You can play this or Flickerwisp or any creature that blinks a creature in this slot. I chose stag because of his .50 price tag.

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn: The boss of the sauce. You can really play this deck any wacky way you want with any wacky big creature. This chick is just the meanest.

Abrupt Decay: One of the best removal spells ever printed. Pretty much takes care of anything in our way.

Swords to Plowshares: Great creature removal, stops threats from killing you. You wouldn't want to die before you windmill slam Emmy on the table, would you?

Congregation At Dawn: I was looking hard for something to set up my library the way I needed it to, this was the answer. Your best 3 to grab for me so far has been ESG on top then a stag and Emmy underneath. You always want to try to play this on their end step, that way you draw an ESG. You can then remove it for that crucial 4th mana for your Dubious Challenge.

Dubious Challenge: Best $1 junk bin rare ever printed. You need 4 to make this work.

Painful Truths: I wasn't sure what to put here. I knew i needed some sort of card draw/dig to get to my combo pieces. This seemed the best choice in my colors.


Pernicious Deed: Board sweeper, Tribal Killer, takes care of pretty much anything you need to take care of. Popping this to blow up 3 The Rack and 2 Shrieking afflictions has been my favorite so far.

Liliana of the Veil: She puts in a ton of work, she pitches Emrakul when you draw it (oops!). Ive never needed to ultimate her, her discard and creature sac is enough for me.

Thoughtseize: We hate blue! Force of will will ruin our day once they stop laughing at dubious challenge and figure out what we are doing.

Lands: Must haves, 23 is the magic number I think. Any combo of g/w/b will do, you always want more Green and Black, don't neglect white or you'll never cast Congregation at Dawn.



Side Board: This is meta dependent. My meta is mostly wacky brews and budget decks with the occasional 3 or 4 serious magic players thrown in. Make this whatever you need to survive.





After playing it for one week I feel OK with the list. Minor tweaks here and there to come.

This week:
-2 Painful Truths
+2 Sensei's Divining Top



Sideboard Changes:
-Stuff
+ Warmth

Not sure what to cut yet, Burn is a real problem for us and any amount of life gain can help. Timely Reinforcements is great but not sure a one time shot is enough. 2 Warmths essentially make lightning bolt say "Target player gains 4 life and you deal 3 damage to a creature, or target player gains 1 life."

Other color combinations can also be considered, Bant is a viable option with noble hierarch, brainstorm, force of will, hell even intuition. The White must stay for congregation at dawn. I feel that card is the real backbone of the deck. Green is also an auto include. You could travel into dangerous territory and play Jund or Sultai and splash for white, but i'm just not sure on how strong the mana base is to support a minor splash.

Other Cards to consider:
Boseiju, who shelters all: This can protect against force of will when casting dubious challenge. while no help to Congregation at dawn this could still be a strong include if there's heavy blue in your meta.

Big No-Nos:
Brooding Saurian: This guy looks good on paper, but with STP running rampant, this guy dying is before your end step is the last thing you want. I feel anything that blinks a creature as an ETB ability is your best bet.

I will be playing this deck again this week to tweak some more. This will be a project of mine for a while. I'm having a lot of fun so far.

[Zapp]

Gilded drake seems like a fun option especially if you are going the flickerwisp route.

[Kobra_D]

So, I've been in love with this deck as soon as I saw it posted, and I want to take this deck to my locals next week! This post is an attempt to explain what I have tried and see if anyone has more suggestions that could help.


Running show and tell is pretty sweet, but with a fatty like Emrakul in hand I would much rather sneak attack. Breaks the symmetry and lets me get in for a quick 15 as opposed to having to wait. And so at the very minimum I am now into RUG. However, I don't have all the blue cards and the blue duals are kind of expensive. Even though it might be better, I want to cut it.


RG? Might never be viable by itself in this format (which is unfortunate). So to get some cheap interaction I added some black. Might not be as good as force of will, but cabal therapy/thoughseize/duress/unmask can put in work.


Jund dubious sneak, ok, seems legit, now for creatures. Fatties are abound in these colors and I did one extra thing, I made them all legendary. This way, if brooding saurian is in my top 10 I get my creatures back, but also I can crop rotation into homeward path to get them back OR karakas them to my hand. Once, they are in my hand, they are sneak attack-able. Also, keeps me with gas instead of having to sac at the end of turn.


That is the concept that I have been working with. Again, UG/RUG might be stronger overall, but power:price ratio is just not where I want it to be.


Here is the list. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.



1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
1 alhammarret, high arbiter
3 brooding saurian
1 dragonlord ojatai
1 Queen Marchesa
1 progenitus
1 rakdos, lord of riots
1 thraximundar

3 sneak attack

2 brand
3 crop rotation

4 cabal therapy
4 dubious challenge
4 faithless looting
4 unmask

2 ancient tomb
3 badlands
2 forest
2 homeward path
2 karakas
1 mountain
3 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothils
1 swamp
3 taiga

[Captain Hammer]

This is a very cool deck. The number of possible routes we can go and the number of global hate available make this really hard to optimize but is also very promising in terms of getting this consistent enough to be a viable option.

Going to try to list all the best options, please add anything to this list that you think is worth mentioning.

Dubious Backups (for when you don't have a Dubious in hand):

Show and Tell - A solid alternative all around and a no brainer alongside 4 Emmy and 4 Grissy. It's blue so you can use it to up the blue count and play FoW to protect your combo.

Sneak Attack - Since most lists are playing 4 Emmy and 4 Grissy to make sure one is in the top 10, Sneak Attack supplements this very well. Worldspine Wurm works well here as well just to ensure that something worthwhile is in your top 10. You could borrow other elements such as Through the Breach from Big Red Decks.

Natural Order - For the lists playing Deathrites and Progenitus, this is a great fit. Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy work here as well. And if you're playing Cabal Therapy, Gamekeeper is a great option here as well.

Dubious Augments:

Congregation at Dawn - To hit with dubious with any consistency, the deck needs to play atleast 14 big creatures or it needs the tutoring power (and acceleration alongside 2 Elvish Spirit Guide) that Congregation provides.

Brooding Sauron - Easily hardcastable if in opening hand, in the right colors so it's never a dead card when in hand. A 4/4 beater is ideal for playing defense as well.

Homeward Path - Likewise never a dead card if drawn. Can be played alongside land tutors, Primeval Titans and Dark Depths and Thespian Stage combo as an alternate win condition.

Brand - Cheap to hardcast, cycles when not needed and in the same color as Sneak Attack.

Flickerwisp and Glimmerpoint Stag - Immune to removal making them very appealing. However if they are drawn, they can't be played before Dubious to set the card up the way Brooding Sauron can. And your only hope of ever hardcasting them is with a heavy white splash.

Clone and Gilded Drake - Hardcastable and useful outside of the combo to steal threatening creatures. A major appeal is that they are blue and pitchable to FoW.

[slave]

I've been playing/testing this deck a fair bit, so far I've learned a few things.

#1 We NEED acceleration.
Whether it's Lotus Petal's, Elvish Spirit Guide's, Ancient Tomb's etc., this deck is far too slow to be a force against the better decks. I'm running Tombs with Petals, with 4 Crop Rotation & 2 Sylvan Scrying to make sure I find my Tombs or Homeward Paths.
I'm currently trying to find a way to pack in ESG's aswell but it's difficult.

The right number of Homeward Path is at least 2, I like 4. It's better than Brand by a large margin, unless you're running perms like Gilded Drake or Perplexing Chimera. Griefer decks will Wasteland it repeatedly, so I've got 6 land tutor and multiple copies.
Another reason for so many land tutor is also for sideboarding later, singleton silver-bullets like Bojuka Bog etc

For Dubious Challenge to work consistently, I don't think Saurian is good enough when you compare it to Homeward Path, bearing in mind STP and other instant-speed removal.

I like Brainstorm, not just to get creatures back on top of the library for Dubious, but to also protect combo from discard.
So far I haven't liked Congregation at Dawn, as the colour requirement is tricky whilst running Homeward Path & Ancient Tomb.

Dubious needs redundancy. ShownTell or Sneak perhaps?
I've been testing 4 Madcap Experiment with Platinum Emperion. It's sub-optimal running Emperion obviously, but it is budget.