Aether Revolt -or- Kaladesh 2: Ghirapur Drift

[Darkenslight]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1MJ7OWVQAAkYMM.jpg

Seems legit.

EDIT, this also seems bonkers, in the right deck.

http://i.imgur.com/bkDwndx.jpg

[Griselpuff]

Excluding Cruise/DTT, Fatal Push is the most important printing since DRS. BUG decks get way better, their main drawback was the lack of one mana unconditional removal, and Push is as close as we're going to get.

[bruizar]

Excluding Cruise/DTT, Fatal Push is the most important printing since DRS. BUG decks get way better, their main drawback was the lack of one mana unconditional removal, and Push is as close as we're going to get.

they pushed black removal, no pun intended

[Lemnear]

[Fatal Push] is absolutely the black Plowshare for the days to come. I however don't know if thats a REAL push in the right direction, given that Decay is around for a while.

I have to say (and you hear that not often from me) that i love [Revolt] given how natural it works in Eternal. Now we wait if we get more decent cards with that mechanic.

[Fox]

Excluding Cruise/DTT, Fatal Push is the most important printing since DRS. BUG decks get way better, their main drawback was the lack of one mana unconditional removal, and Push is as close as we're going to get.
Oh dear....it's the exact same as Murderous Cut in most ways, it replaces Disfigure, and it's still not resolving through Chalice on 1. The card you are looking for is Monstery Mentor, flip-Jace, Leovold, Paradoxical Outcome/car shops stuff (vintage), and even fringe stuff like Invasive Surgery/TITI/Inventor's Fair/K-Command. :tongue:

[Chatto]

[Fatal Push] is absolutely the black Plowshare for the days to come. I however don't know if thats a REAL push in the right direction, given that Decay is around for a while.

I have to say (and you hear that not often from me) that i love [Revolt] given how natural it works in Eternal. Now we wait if we get more decent cards with that mechanic.

Revolt looks really cool on paper. I hope WotC won't screw things up, and print a ridiculous strong card ala DTT or TC (not sure how it would look like, but something like that would really kill the mechanism).

[Lemnear]

Revolt looks really cool on paper. I hope WotC won't screw things up, and print a ridiculous strong card ala DTT or TC (not sure how it would look like, but something like that would really kill the mechanism).

The danger here is that in every format with fetchlands [Revolt] isn't actually conditional, which is pretty much the same as [Delve]. I however doubt WotC will screw that one up and make some ridiculous cantrip or shit. The best I hope for is a rare discard spell with that mechanic

[CptHaddock]

Oh dear....it's the exact same as Murderous Cut in most ways, it replaces Disfigure, and it's still not resolving through Chalice on 1. The card you are looking for is Monstery Mentor, flip-Jace, Leovold, Paradoxical Outcome/car shops stuff (vintage), and even fringe stuff like Invasive Surgery/TITI/Inventor's Fair/K-Command. :tongue:

If we're talking about upsides/downsides of the card you should atleast mention that against decks that will potentially bring in graveyard hate against you that cut is uncastable unlike a certain 1 mana removal spell that only gets better if you have a fetchland.

[Barook]

Too bad it doesn't have trample. At least for flavor reasons with Phyrexian Dreadnought. But even then probably unplayable in Legacy.
Consulate Dreadnought comboes very well with this:

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/siegemodification.jpg

Seems interesting for Limited, at the very least.

[Fox]

If we're talking about upsides/downsides of the card you should atleast mention that against decks that will potentially bring in graveyard hate against you that cut is uncastable unlike a certain 1 mana removal spell that only gets better if you have a fetchland.
I mean, I've compared it to Disfigure...we know Murderous Cut and Disfigure show up and in how many copies in the same way as knowing how many Envelops there were and how many Invasive Surgeries you could expect. You can't reasonably run this without the Decay playset making it a 5-6th slot, whereas you get some leeway with Cut vs [insert uninteractive card, like Chalice] and also are able to affect any cmc unconditionally once on the stack. The card is good, but it's a joke compared to Mentor's effect on legacy/vintage. Fatal Push as the "most important printing since DRS [and DTT/TC]" - really?

[maharis]

I mean, I've compared it to Disfigure...we know Murderous Cut and Disfigure show up and in how many copies in the same way as knowing how many Envelops there were and how many Invasive Surgeries you could expect. You can't reasonably run this without the Decay playset making it a 5-6th slot, whereas you get some leeway with Cut vs [insert uninteractive card, like Chalice] and also are able to affect any cmc unconditionally once on the stack. The card is good, but it's a joke compared to Mentor's effect on legacy/vintage. Fatal Push as the "most important printing since DRS [and DTT/TC]" - really?

Because it is a way to establish deathrite supremacy in the Bx midrange "mirror." A cardinal rule in the format today is, "Don't let them untap with a Deathrite." That's why you see so many 4c control/midrange lists, because Bolt and STP get rid of a T1 deathrite on the other side of the table. You can't kill anything on t2 with Murderous Cut absent a really ridiculous draw with junk like Thought Scour, which is why you still see, for example, Dismember to get around lockpieces and kill bigger dudes.

[Fox]

Because it is a way to establish deathrite supremacy in the Bx midrange "mirror." A cardinal rule in the format today is, "Don't let them untap with a Deathrite." That's why you see so many 4c control/midrange lists, because Bolt and STP get rid of a T1 deathrite on the other side of the table. You can't kill anything on t2 with Murderous Cut absent a really ridiculous draw with junk like Thought Scour, which is why you still see, for example, Dismember to get around lockpieces and kill bigger dudes.
That's all well and good, but there's a maximum as to how many removal spells one can run - moreso when you pretty much have to start with Decay (known issue of B+G in legacy thanks to CB). This spell is for the most part better than Disfigure, similar to Murderous Cut, and pretty much knowable when it comes to slots it will get. There's some decent points earlier about this replacing Bolt, but now you're potentially cutting red altogether? You now have 8 topdecks that aren't threats and half of them used to pressure life total or a JTMS?

The card is fine, not some automatic 4x format changer. Ban that which forces everyone to run Decay and this card will be more worthwhile to discuss. It also competes with discard, these are important mitigating factors.

[rcwraspy]

That's all well and good, but there's a maximum as to how many removal spells one can run - moreso when you pretty much have to start with Decay (known issue of B+G in legacy thanks to CB). This spell is for the most part better than Disfigure, similar to Murderous Cut, and pretty much knowable when it comes to slots it will get. There's some decent points earlier about this replacing Bolt, but now you're potentially cutting red altogether? You now have 8 topdecks that aren't threats and half of them used to pressure life total or a JTMS?

The card is fine, not some automatic 4x format changer. Ban that which forces everyone to run Decay and this card will be more worthwhile to discuss. It also competes with discard, these are important mitigating factors.

Why do we care so much about this getting locked out by Counterbalance? Is this really a card you want in that matchup?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Why do we care so much about this getting locked out by Counterbalance? Is this really a card you want in that matchup?

I guess its the classic "there is an answer for it"; or "it dies to fatal push" case. So obviously the card is just meh!

[Megadeus]

You do need to be careful with it though that it kind of forces you to catch maybe in a situation that you don't want to.

[maharis]

That's all well and good, but there's a maximum as to how many removal spells one can run - moreso when you pretty much have to start with Decay (known issue of B+G in legacy thanks to CB). This spell is for the most part better than Disfigure, similar to Murderous Cut, and pretty much knowable when it comes to slots it will get. There's some decent points earlier about this replacing Bolt, but now you're potentially cutting red altogether? You now have 8 topdecks that aren't threats and half of them used to pressure life total or a JTMS?

The card is fine, not some automatic 4x format changer. Ban that which forces everyone to run Decay and this card will be more worthwhile to discuss. It also competes with discard, these are important mitigating factors.

Not being pushed into 4 colors is a big deal considering these types of decks have a hell of a time against D&T as is, not to mention the potential blood moon blowout.

The difference between one and two mana is huge, even with a card as good as Decay. The kind of deck that wants this needs to prevent their opponent from untapping with a DRS or Mom. Decay is too slow in these situations.

That's not to mention the ability to kill Thalia for one mana or clear a Tarmogoyf out of the way, with the potential upside of nabbing a TKS.

I agree with you that the pressure to play decay is too high right now, but that's a discussion for a different thread. Fwiw, this card can diversify Decay decks a bit which may help the format in other ways.

[Cire]

Fwiw, this card can diversify Decay decks a bit which may help the format in other ways.

IDK about diversifying them - but it does give one a more valid reason to go BUG without splaching either R for Bolt or W for Swords.

[bruizar]

Consulate Dreadnought comboes very well with this:

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/siegemodification.jpg

Seems interesting for Limited, at the very least.

I wat eyeing this card for Heart of Kiran. Flying Vigilance First Strike 7/4 seems pretty good. Adding Dreadnought makes it even more spicy.

[Poron]

don't like it.

like Mishra's Factory, 80% of the vehicles strenght is to dodge Sorcery speed removal. Heart of Kiran, overall, allows you to connect for 4 also without any creature.

Another Tezzerator toy for sure. 4/4, flying vigilance and 9 Planeswalkers around to activate it.. might be worth it

[Darkenslight]

Welp, this set has really interesting implications for Commander.

There's a 2/2 for :2: :g:, with an ETB of put a +1/+1 counter on up to two target creatures.

But then you get to the second ability. "Each creature you control with a counter on it gains, " :tap: : add :g: to your mana pool."

So, that can get nutty quickly.

[Barook]

Welp, this set has really interesting implications for Commander.

There's a 2/2 for :2: :g:, with an ETB of put a +1/+1 counter on up to two target creatures.

But then you get to the second ability. "Each creature you control with a counter on it gains, " :tap: : add :g: to your mana pool."

So, that can get nutty quickly.
Could you go a bit more into detail why it's nutty (in Commander)?

The best thing I could think of for a competitive format is Gavony Township for Modern.

[mistercakes]

i'm really excited about the new black removal spell. i enjoy playing goblins from time to time and being able to play a turn 1 lackey with a very good removal spell in hand is going to help a lot! also having unconditional removal for B against tarmogoyf, delver, and deathrite shaman is so important for a deck like goblins.

anyway! excited to see the rest.

[Pelikanudo]

i'm really excited about the new black removal spell. i enjoy playing goblins from time to time and being able to play a turn 1 lackey with a very good removal spell in hand is going to help a lot! also having unconditional removal for B against tarmogoyf, delver, and deathrite shaman is so important for a deck like goblins.

anyway! excited to see the rest.

me too... sure in modern is gem, and in legacy I will see how I can tune my faeries deck!

[Darkenslight]

OMG! If this:

http://www.hobbyconsolas.com/sites/hobbyconsolas.com/public/media/image/2017/01/magic-gatheringestatuas-inspiradoras.jpg

is translated correctly...

The translation is apprently, "Nonartifact spells you cast have Improvise (After spending mana, you may tap artifacts to pay :1: of this spell's mana cost.)"

It costs 3. It's an artifact.

[H]

OMG! If this is translated correctly...

The translation is apprently, "Nonartifact spells you cast have Improvise (After spending mana, you may tap artifacts to pay :1: of this spell's mana cost.)"

It costs 3. It's an artifact.

Do go on, what do you plan to do with it? Vintage 5c Stax?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Do go on, what do you plan to do with it? Vintage 5c Stax?
In EDH it is a (conditionally) better mana-rock of the variety they like to print nowadays.

It'll be popular, but a CMC of :3: is probably too high for competitive eternal.

[H]

In EDH it is a (conditionally) better mana-rock of the variety they like to print nowadays.

It'll be popular, but a CMC of :3: is probably too high for competitive eternal.

Yeah, I mean, I see how it could be used for something, but prefaced by "OMG!" I can't really imagine anything that spectacular.

[Griselpuff]

I mean, I've compared it to Disfigure...we know Murderous Cut and Disfigure show up and in how many copies in the same way as knowing how many Envelops there were and how many Invasive Surgeries you could expect. You can't reasonably run this without the Decay playset making it a 5-6th slot, whereas you get some leeway with Cut vs [insert uninteractive card, like Chalice] and also are able to affect any cmc unconditionally once on the stack. The card is good, but it's a joke compared to Mentor's effect on legacy/vintage. Fatal Push as the "most important printing since DRS [and DTT/TC]" - really?

I'm talking about Legacy. Mentor is played in exactly one deck here.

It's basically black STP. Imagine if STP were not a card and then they printed it. This is not going to be as dramatic because STP already exists, but will be absolutely huge.

[aCatNamedBootsy]

Welp, this set has really interesting implications for Commander.

There's a 2/2 for :2: :g:, with an ETB of put a +1/+1 counter on up to two target creatures.

But then you get to the second ability. "Each creature you control with a counter on it gains, " :tap: : add :g: to your mana pool."

So, that can get nutty quickly.
What's even more fascinating is that the ability says "each creature with a counter on it", so +1/+1, -1/-1, -0/-1 (looking at you, Wall of Roots), charge, or ice counters make creatures into mana dorks.

[Star|Scream]

Not being pushed into 4 colors is a big deal considering these types of decks have a hell of a time against D&T as is, not to mention the potential blood moon blowout.

The difference between one and two mana is huge, even with a card as good as Decay. The kind of deck that wants this needs to prevent their opponent from untapping with a DRS or Mom. Decay is too slow in these situations.

That's not to mention the ability to kill Thalia for one mana or clear a Tarmogoyf out of the way, with the potential upside of nabbing a TKS.



I'm not sure how you're planning to kill Thalia with one mana. Afaik the only way to do that realistically is Murderous Cut or Slaughter Pact.

[rufus]

Do go on, what do you plan to do with it? Vintage 5c Stax?

I guess it breaks the symmetry on Sphere of Resistance. A lot of the strong artifacts already produce mana, so improvise isn't *that* exciting in general.

You can work around it, but the use artifacts to cast non-artifacts also makes cross synergy much more complicated.

[Darkenslight]

I guess it breaks the symmetry on Sphere of Resistance. A lot of the strong artifacts already produce mana, so improvise isn't *that* exciting in general.

You can work around it, but the use artifacts to cast non-artifacts also makes cross synergy much more complicated.

IT's more than that. IT's synergistic with cards like 3Sphere and Winter Orb, too. It makes for a very interesting one-sided Stax build, alongside the Quicksilver cards from Aether Revolt.

[Cire]

Aid from the Cowl 3GG
Enchantment
Revolt - At the beginning of your end step, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, you may reveal the top card of your library. If it's a permanent card, you may put it on the battlefield. If not, you may place that card on the bottom of your library.

. . . Plus a Fetch Land, and clever stacking through top or brainstorm, it can get an emmy out the turn it comes into play?

[Barook]

Aid from the Cowl 3GG
Enchantment
Revolt - At the beginning of your end step, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, you may reveal the top card of your library. If it's a permanent card, you may put it on the battlefield. If not, you may place that card on the bottom of your library.

. . . Plus a Fetch Land, and clever stacking through top or brainstorm, it can get an emmy out the turn it comes into play?
5 mana is still alot when you can do the same thing with S&T.

On a side note, this card has alot of synergy with SDT since Top can stack the top of your library AND activate the revolt trigger by activating the tap ability. You just need to use the :1: ability first and then tap it in response.

Fatties + SDT - so basically some kind of 12 Post deck maybe? :really:

[square_two]

Aid from the Cowl 3GG
Enchantment
Revolt - At the beginning of your end step, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, you may reveal the top card of your library. If it's a permanent card, you may put it on the battlefield. If not, you may place that card on the bottom of your library.

. . . Plus a Fetch Land, and clever stacking through top or brainstorm, it can get an emmy out the turn it comes into play?

Trying hard to picture this in a Tireless Tracker/Smokestack Stompy deck that I shelved earlier in the year. Sounds like it might be a reasonable replacement over something like Coercive Portal or Bottled Cloister since it drops stuff right into play, at least when all but ~8 cards in your deck are permanents. Then again, something like Nissa Vital Force is the same cost and sounds way more powerful on its own.

[Cire]

Mechanized Production 2UU
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant artifact you control
At the beginning of your upkeep, create a token that's a copy of enchanted artifact. Then if you control eight or more artifacts with the same name as one another, you win the game.

Mechanized Production on Sphere sounds hilarious. . . . everything slowly costing more and more, and then you win?

I doubt it can be viable, but it's pretty hilarious :tongue:

[Barook]

Mechanized Production on Sphere sounds hilarious. . . . everything slowly costing more and more, and then you win?
Balls of Steel that can actually win the game now? What a time to be alive!

I do like the idea behind that, though, as it's kinda self-protecting.

Other cards:
http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/reverseengineer.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/glintsleevesiphoner.jpg

[rufus]

Trying hard to picture this in a Tireless Tracker/Smokestack Stompy deck that I shelved earlier in the year. Sounds like it might be a reasonable replacement over something like Coercive Portal or Bottled Cloister since it drops stuff right into play, at least when all but ~8 cards in your deck are permanents. Then again, something like Nissa Vital Force is the same cost and sounds way more powerful on its own.

In legacy, it basically has to win the game if it hits, and there are lots of ways to stack the top of the deck, but I'm not sure what it combos with that will win the game that turn.

I guess Sterling Grove might work OK.

In a less exacting context where you could play Primal Surge or Warp World concepts, it might fit in well.

[ReAnimator]

This thing seems like it could add extra redundancy to Elves, as you could conceivably go off with Nettle Sentinels without needing a heritage druid.

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/AER/en/nonfoil/RishkarPeemaRenegade.jpg

[rufus]

This thing seems like it could add extra redundancy to Elves, as you could conceivably go off with Nettle Sentinels without needing a heritage druid.

...

Putting a counter on Quirion ranger, or Wirewood Symbiote probably not terrible either. I think legacy elves really likes the pocket haste that heritage druid gives though, so Seton, Krosan Protector might be a better elf card.

Alas, I don't see anything silly with the {q} creatures.

The Themo-Alchemist/Gelectrode familiy of creatures probably also doesn't get much.

[ReAnimator]

Putting a counter on Quirion ranger, or Wirewood Symbiote probably not terrible either. I think legacy elves really likes the pocket haste that heritage druid gives though, so Seton, Krosan Protector might be a better elf card.

I'm in no way advocating for the removal of heritage, just for this as possible redundancy. Seton doesn't work with Nettle Sentinel at all so i don't know what you are suggesting, also he's not an elf himself.

[Fox]

I'm talking about Legacy. Mentor is played in exactly one deck here.
It's basically black STP. Imagine if STP were not a card and then they printed it. This is not going to be as dramatic because STP already exists, but will be absolutely huge.
If white didn't have StP then yes, they'd likely gravitate towards black for this card over something like Condemn or Path to Exile. Black already has a few versions of the instant speed 1 mana kill spell, and importantly one that doesn't care about Chalice on 1 (Murderous Cut) - it has even more if we tally sorcery speed. Will a heavily dedicated black deck like Pox use this spell, probably...moreso if they were running any Disfigure. Is that same deck going to run this over a sorcery speed sac effect, or discard, or Murderous Cut (and its added benefit of yard manipulation) - the answer here is a little less clear given intrinsic weaknesses to combo.

So if you had white, you don't care (StP). If you're mono-black, maybe. If you ran BG, then if you have space and inclination after Decay. If you run U/B....are there any fair'ish decks strictly in that color who can afford to play removal-based legacy without being forced into G for Decay? Then you get to B/R and B/Rx, and technically yes you could give up on life total and PW pressure to get what may be better than Bolt...potentially cutting red altogether and losing Pyroblast??? There's not a lot of B/Rx that isn't Grixis (specifically Grixis without Decay), so are we probably aren't giving up red entirely b/c of Pyroblast - now you can kill a Goyf, but b/c TKS comes with Chalice/Tomb, Fatal Push isn't really all upside. Now if you're running Grim Lavamancer in [what is likely] the Grixis shell, then yes you are highly incentivized towards selecting Fatal Push.

Fatal Push is antagonistic to proactive development (holding up fetches), so let's say that you can't meet the "revolt" condition as you're a tap-out to win deck (like Shardless): are you going to be punished b/c this card isn't Disfigure anymore? No, b/c you're still winning they Goyf war with it...Goyf isn't ever winning fights because a creature cmc 3-4 or 5+ was shrunk by -2/-2. In almost most scenarios decks will want either Darkblast or Push over Disfigure - and we know how much play that sees.

Now if you're on the "revolt" always available plan, you're playing on a very strange/highly-tuned axis...if that's a thing, honestly you probably needed to have a 1 mana kill spell that tags Grisel to pilot such a tempo-deferring deck to success vs the field.

It's on helluva statement the Fatal Push is the most important thing since DRS (excluding TC/DTT). It's playable, as playable as Disfigure is. Mentor's effect on even just legacy is absurd (absolutely insane if you're talking vintage); it's still reliably in 10-15% of decks, mostly miracles but also at the fringes with esperTopMentor, TinFins SBs, and others.

Fatal Push as the "Black StP" does not answer the fundamental issues associated with playing that color. This is mostly because Counterbalance exists (different discussion though)...in general across all formats black can win the war of the scum, however they don't really aggro you out (better scum with tempo is red). There is still a particularly glaring hole when competing at higher CMCs, and Fatal Push has limitations in an area where black [by itself] cannot afford to have holes. In legacy this card can blend with other colors to be quite strong but you still need Decay, life total pressure (Bolt), and/or have a better card (StP). A lot of the impact this card could have feels like it's tied into the viability of a given LavaStill backbone, and as cool as SCM targeting Fatal Push, sac SCM to Therapy flashback, into revolt-Fatal Push (alternatively, flip-Jace exile/return into recast revolt-Fatal Push) sounds...Standstill isn't a thing right now.

[Griselpuff]

Fatal Push doesn't need Revolt to be great. I'm envisioning it in conjunction with decay, so BG decks basically, which right now just means BUG decks. BUG Delver and Shardless had a glaring weakness in having no good one mana removal that has been patched.

[maharis]

I'm not sure how you're planning to kill Thalia with one mana. Afaik the only way to do that realistically is Murderous Cut or Slaughter Pact.

Sorry, what I meant was a 1-mana base option to kill Thalia with more upside than Disfigure or less conditional than Deathmark (in mono-B). Dismember against D&T can backfire in a hurry when they get a few 3-power flyers down.


If white didn't have StP then yes, they'd likely gravitate towards black for this card over something like Condemn or Path to Exile. Black already has a few versions of the instant speed 1 mana kill spell, and importantly one that doesn't care about Chalice on 1 (Murderous Cut) - it has even more if we tally sorcery speed. Will a heavily dedicated black deck like Pox use this spell, probably...moreso if they were running any Disfigure. Is that same deck going to run this over a sorcery speed sac effect, or discard, or Murderous Cut (and its added benefit of yard manipulation) - the answer here is a little less clear given intrinsic weaknesses to combo.

So if you had white, you don't care (StP). If you're mono-black, maybe. If you ran BG, then if you have space and inclination after Decay. If you run U/B....are there any fair'ish decks strictly in that color who can afford to play removal-based legacy without being forced into G for Decay? Then you get to B/R and B/Rx, and technically yes you could give up on life total and PW pressure to get what may be better than Bolt...potentially cutting red altogether and losing Pyroblast??? There's not a lot of B/Rx that isn't Grixis (specifically Grixis without Decay), so are we probably aren't giving up red entirely b/c of Pyroblast - now you can kill a Goyf, but b/c TKS comes with Chalice/Tomb, Fatal Push isn't really all upside. Now if you're running Grim Lavamancer in [what is likely] the Grixis shell, then yes you are highly incentivized towards selecting Fatal Push.

Fatal Push is antagonistic to proactive development (holding up fetches), so let's say that you can't meet the "revolt" condition as you're a tap-out to win deck (like Shardless): are you going to be punished b/c this card isn't Disfigure anymore? No, b/c you're still winning they Goyf war with it...Goyf isn't ever winning fights because a creature cmc 3-4 or 5+ was shrunk by -2/-2. In almost most scenarios decks will want either Darkblast or Push over Disfigure - and we know how much play that sees.

Now if you're on the "revolt" always available plan, you're playing on a very strange/highly-tuned axis...if that's a thing, honestly you probably needed to have a 1 mana kill spell that tags Grisel to pilot such a tempo-deferring deck to success vs the field.

It's on helluva statement the Fatal Push is the most important thing since DRS (excluding TC/DTT). It's playable, as playable as Disfigure is. Mentor's effect on even just legacy is absurd (absolutely insane if you're talking vintage); it's still reliably in 10-15% of decks, mostly miracles but also at the fringes with esperTopMentor, TinFins SBs, and others.

Fatal Push as the "Black StP" does not answer the fundamental issues associated with playing that color. This is mostly because Counterbalance exists (different discussion though)...in general across all formats black can win the war of the scum, however they don't really aggro you out (better scum with tempo is red). There is still a particularly glaring hole when competing at higher CMCs, and Fatal Push has limitations in an area where black [by itself] cannot afford to have holes. In legacy this card can blend with other colors to be quite strong but you still need Decay, life total pressure (Bolt), and/or have a better card (StP). A lot of the impact this card could have feels like it's tied into the viability of a given LavaStill backbone, and as cool as SCM targeting Fatal Push, sac SCM to Therapy flashback, into revolt-Fatal Push (alternatively, flip-Jace exile/return into recast revolt-Fatal Push) sounds...Standstill isn't a thing right now.

The No. 1 reason the deck you describe isn't a deck right now is that DRS and Delver get in under Standstill and cause havoc. Having a way to kill them with upside later in the game (Standstill triggering even activates Revolt!) is exactly what that kind of deck needs.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/renegaderallier.jpg

Not sure into what deck he could fit, but doesn't seem too shabby. At worst, he's GSZ-able and he ramps. Wasteland also has synergy with this - waste, play him, waste again.

[Vicar in a tutu]

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/renegaderallier.jpg

Not sure into what deck he could fit, but doesn't seem too shabby. At worst, he's GSZ-able and he ramps. Wasteland also has synergy with this - waste, play him, waste again.
His creature type is relevant as well. Cool card.

[Lemnear]

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/renegaderallier.jpg

Not sure into what deck he could fit, but doesn't seem too shabby. At worst, he's GSZ-able and he ramps. Wasteland also has synergy with this - waste, play him, waste again.

Would be much better if mono-white, so D&T could consider running him to recycle killed Thalias, Moms and sac'd Wastelands. Its pretty nutty with Wasteland per sé

[Barook]

Would be much better if mono-white, so D&T could consider running him to recycle killed Thalias, Moms and sac'd Wastelands. Its pretty nutty with Wasteland per sé
It does make the green splash (with Noble Hierarch) more attractive than before. KotR didn't really impress me since it lacks the immediate impact other CIP creatures have.

[Lemnear]

It does make the green splash (with Noble Hierarch) more attractive than before. KotR didn't really impress me since it lacks the immediate impact other CIP creatures have.

The problem is that green isn't really offering anything these days for white Hatebear decks to splash a color for. D&T can do pretty much everything on its own already

[tescrin]

Yeah, I mean, I see how it could be used for something, but prefaced by "OMG!" I can't really imagine anything that spectacular.
Could be some kind of goofiness with 0-cost things. It would allow you to splash Eldrazi into your affinity deck or double-up on affinity for the nonartifact. Could be used with (X) drawers or (X) damage potentially to make affinity more interesting?

[Lemnear]

Could be some kind of goofiness with 0-cost things. It would allow you to splash Eldrazi into your affinity deck or double-up on affinity for the nonartifact. Could be used with (X) drawers or (X) damage potentially to make affinity more interesting?

Since when does classic affinity have the manabase to support 3cc non-creature artifacts and X-Draw spells?

[Fox]

The No. 1 reason the deck you describe isn't a deck right now is that DRS and Delver get in under Standstill and cause havoc. Having a way to kill them with upside later in the game (Standstill triggering even activates Revolt!) is exactly what that kind of deck needs.
That is an incorrect analysis. These Standstill decks already had 4 slots in Bolt, alternatively they could have been UWR and had 4 more slots in StP. To some degree you could now choose black over white and not auto-lose to Goyf. Now you need to fill the SB holes from losing RiP and W//T. Let's say you've done all this...you still can't beat Counterbalance. It doesn't matter if a Standstill or Blade deck gets new tools, they don't have the free win aspect of miracles and they also have quite unfavorable miracles matchups. It's not just these flavors of control decks with that issue, it's every deck in the format that has to preemptively blow the slots you want Fatal Push to occupy on Decay to even stand a slim chance against control (aka just miracles). The conversation about Fatal Push, beyond that issue, will focus very heavily on red (specifically Bolt).

Standstill and Blade decks don't have power level problems keeping them out of the meta, and Push upping their options & power level doesn't address playability. Now they certainly have a much smaller issue with Goyf (now solvable without white), but they hardly care that other decks can deploy creatures they are likely running at least one playset of anyways (and who Bolt/Disfigure already tagged). Going with a grixis Standstill model, keep in mind that Fatal Push drives them towards playing into mana denial which cripples their [not currently viable] gameplan; leading with more duals and potentially holding up fetches through opponent untaps. Now tightening the manabase to U/W-Still results in a reasonably playable/competitive deck (ignoring the main problem), but exclusively U/B-flavored control isn't a thing and no number of Fatal Push in such a list changes that. They and their similarly-colored, but not control, brethren splashed and will continue to splash green for Decay.

If you already ran or heavily considered running Dismember, you have a new card that is generally an improvement but still sits in your hand while you wait to topdeck Decay for CB or Chalice - scenarios where Murderous Cut goes bigger and generally through those known issues for that ~1 mana. The enthusiasm about this card is what I find absurd when we're already accustomed to the 1-drop black kill instant.

@akatsuki keep in mind that 8(?) slots of doesn't fight combo, doesn't pressure life total/PWs, ends at cmc 3&4, doesn't have Pyroblast (your colors), etc.. has some glaring holes. Where are you getting those slots, how are you compensating with other cards/slots? The space doesn't really exist and at some point a discard spell does more.

Anyways if we want to talk more about Push I'm happy to continue via PM or in an xStill thread, unless there are other ideas for optimal homes for this card. Otherwise it seems tailor-made for heavy use in a currently unviable archetype.

Concerning the new spoilers Rishkar looks like some modern KikkiChord +/- CoCo stuff; I've never understood wanting to play Kitchen Finks but they probably go together. :tongue:

Reverse Engineer looks awesome (albeit janky). The important interaction here probably looks like: Tap LEDs in the casting, crack LEDs holding priority, and draw 3 with plenty of mana.

Glint-Sleeve Siphoner seems like a quite playable alternative to Bob, though I'd probably not want to spend above $2 per paper copy. You've won the limited lottery if you've drafted Fatal Pushes in some amount and assemble the 'show' Elephant + the Siphoner (they lose on cards and won't be able to meet menace reqs).

[rufus]

....
Not sure into what deck he could fit, but doesn't seem too shabby. At worst, he's GSZ-able and he ramps. Wasteland also has synergy with this - waste, play him, waste again.

There's an extremely janky combo with him, Dance of Many and any instant speed enchantment sack outlet.

[Barook]

There's an extremely janky combo with him, Dance of Many and any instant speed enchantment sack outlet.
I would rather play Saffi Eriksdotter and a winning sac outlet instead. Reduces the amount of colors required and both Rallier and Saffi are GSZ-able.

Looked up green sac wincons. There's actually this thing called Freyalise Supplicant, which is also GSZ-able. But then you need something to untap over and over again, like Intruder Alarm, making it a 4-card combo. Blasting Station would probably work better.

[Fox]

I would rather play Saffi Eriksdotter and a winning sac outlet instead. Reduces the amount of colors required and both Rallier and Saffi are GSZ-able.

Looked up green sac wincons. There's actually this thing called Freyalise Supplicant, which is also GSZ-able. But then you need something to untap over and over again, like Intruder Alarm, making it a 4-card combo. Blasting Station would probably work better.
Aren't you just running Zombardment or Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit + Safehold Elite + any sac to ping effect?

[Darkenslight]

I would rather play Saffi Eriksdotter and a winning sac outlet instead. Reduces the amount of colors required and both Rallier and Saffi are GSZ-able.

Looked up green sac wincons. There's actually this thing called Freyalise Supplicant, which is also GSZ-able. But then you need something to untap over and over again, like Intruder Alarm, making it a 4-card combo. Blasting Station would probably work better.

I'm starting to look at this set as the Combo Renaissance. There's so much combo interactions for all formats. Now, the key question is whether or not those comboes are viable in decks, or even have hteir own decks to spawn.

[Mr Miagi]

I'm starting to look at this set as the Combo Renaissance. There's so much combo interactions for all formats. Now, the key question is whether or not those comboes are viable in decks, or even have hteir own decks to spawn.

Pretty much exactly this. It so feels "comboi" but rather clunky, 3-4 cards comboi. But I think EDH players will gladly pick those up.

[rufus]

Look, here's a better Thrummingbird... Lots of old keywords reprinted incognito in these sets. Has me wondering if there's some kind of marketing test going on.

[Lemnear]

I'm starting to look at this set as the Combo Renaissance. There's so much combo interactions for all formats. Now, the key question is whether or not those comboes are viable in decks, or even have hteir own decks to spawn.

I wonder where you see playable build-around-me combo cards. I see only 3-card-durdling stuff

[Cire]

Aetherborn Warrior 2B
Creature - Aetherling Warrior
Revolt - When this creature enters the battlefield, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, target creature gets -3/-3 until the end of turn.
3/2

For an uncommon this is pretty excellent! It's an easier to activate Wasteland Strangler with the downside of not being an eldrazi.

[Megadeus]

A lot of borderline playable eternal stuff thanks to fetches

[BenBleiweiss]

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/0028_MTGAER_Main_EN_HRR.png

Counterbalance decks?

[Lemnear]

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/0028_MTGAER_Main_EN_HRR.png

Counterbalance decks?

Not relevant in legacy I'd say

[Megadeus]

Probably bad in legacy. Being legendary is a massive downside with karakas being everywhere

[CptHaddock]

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/0028_MTGAER_Main_EN_HRR.png

Counterbalance decks?

I can think of atleast 1 miracles player who probably got a chubby just seeing that he can cast his predicts for :u:.

[Zombie]

Aetherborn Warrior 2B
Creature - Aetherling Warrior
Revolt - When this creature enters the battlefield, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, target creature gets -3/-3 until the end of turn.
3/2

For an uncommon this is pretty excellent! It's an easier to activate Wasteland Strangler with the downside of not being an eldrazi.

Why can't this be an Elf ;_;

[Lemnear]

I can think of atleast 1 miracles player who probably got a chubby just seeing that he can cast his predicts for :u:.

Its not quite better than the "familiar" cycle and people did not bother to run them, Intuition and Accumulated knowledge back in the days, so i doubt this card has a point.

[rufus]

...

Counterbalance decks?

It's an improved Goblin Electromancer. Modern UR storm chase card.

Maybe there's something with Blood Funnel and Multani's Presence...

[maharis]

Aetherborn Warrior 2B
Creature - Aetherling Warrior
Revolt - When this creature enters the battlefield, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, target creature gets -3/-3 until the end of turn.
3/2

For an uncommon this is pretty excellent! It's an easier to activate Wasteland Strangler with the downside of not being an eldrazi.

This is very solid. Wasteland Strangler is a good effect but this is way easier to trigger. Also easier on the mana than Gatekeeper of Malakir. Not symmetrical like Fleshbag Marauder.

This and Rallier being 3/2s have me looking very closely at Chief of the Edge, but maybe that's more Modern.

[square_two]

Aetherborn Warrior 2B
Creature - Aetherling Warrior
Revolt - When this creature enters the battlefield, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, target creature gets -3/-3 until the end of turn.
3/2

For an uncommon this is pretty excellent! It's an easier to activate Wasteland Strangler with the downside of not being an eldrazi.

If that wording is correct, then it has a downside of killing itself if it is the only creature on the battlefield if revolt triggers. So you can't crack a fetch and then cast this to start some pressure on an open board.

[Barook]

If that wording is correct, then it has a downside of killing itself if it is the only creature on the battlefield if revolt triggers. So you can't crack a fetch and then cast this to start some pressure on an open board.
Or your opponent can kill anything of your stuff when it's on the stack to 2-for-1 you.

[Fox]

Its not quite better than the "familiar" cycle and people did not bother to run them, Intuition and Accumulated knowledge back in the days, so i doubt this card has a point.
Yeah, seems like you'd have to want to put Grisel in the yard to make this guy work...or have some interesting madness shenanigans going on. P-Fire value stuff works best with Dack, and in general it seems like Wharf Infiltrator is better able to accomplish what this sets out to achieve. Maybe cost reduction combos with buyback costs, but I don't see it.

[Cire]

Revolt and Fetch Lands really are interesting:

Solemn Recruit 1WW
Creature - Dwarf Soldier
Double strike
Revolt - At the beginning of your end step, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, put a +1/+1 counter on Solemn Recruit.
2/2

Mirran Crusader has seen play and this hits 2 points harder the turn after it comes into play, and it can hit even harder than that afterwards. Of course, it doesn't have the crusader's protections, but that can be a metagame call.

[Ephemeron]

Revolt and Fetch Lands really are interesting:

Solemn Recruit 1WW
Creature - Dwarf Soldier
Double strike
Revolt - At the beginning of your end step, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, put a +1/+1 counter on Solemn Recruit.
2/2

Mirran Crusader has seen play and this hits 2 points harder the turn after it comes into play, and it can hit even harder than that afterwards. Of course, it doesn't have the crusader's protections, but that can be a metagame call.

D&T is the only deck that really plays crusader, and it doesn't play fetches to really utilize Revolt. Plus protection from black removal/screw goyf is the only reason why anyone would play Crusader in the first place.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/exquisitearchangel.jpg

Platinum Angel 2.0

[Lemnear]

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/exquisitearchangel.jpg

Platinum Angel 2.0

Worse than Platinum Angel effect-wise

[Fox]

Worse than Platinum Angel effect-wise
Somewhere a False Cure player is hoping someone runs this.

[MaximumC]

This saves you for one turn from decking, correct? You draw a card, lose the game instead, exile this instead... stack done. Right?


Worse than Platinum Angel effect-wise

Lich's Mirror combo says no.

[Barook]

Worse than Platinum Angel effect-wise
I'm pretty sure it instagibs an opponent with Sanguine Bond or Defiant Bloodlord unless they're way beyond their starting life points.

Edit:
http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/cogworkassembler.jpg
If you have a Metalworker that can tap for at least 8, you can go infinite and then shit out infinite tokens of whatever. Oh, it can also be pumped with Mishra's Factory, for what it's worth.

[thefringthing]

I'm pretty sure it instagibs an opponent with Sanguine Bond or Defiant Bloodlord unless they're way beyond their starting life points.You don't gain any life when the Angel effect goes off; it just sets your life to 20.

[warai]

The problem is that green isn't really offering anything these days for white Hatebear decks to splash a color for. D&T can do pretty much everything on its own already

Ahhh.... let's see.... Gaddock Teeg, Deathrite Shaman, Green Sun's Zenith are powerful cards on their own that mono white D&T wish it could have. Of course Rishadan Port gives the deck a lot of consistency with the bears. Port its the single card that would make you run mono white D&T over anything imo..

[Barook]

You don't gain any life when the Angel effect goes off; it just sets your life to 20.
I'm pretty sure that setting life does count as life gain if you're below and as life loss if you're above.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I intended to dispute this, but Barook is correct.

Arbiter of Knollridge

Gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=405129):
10/1/2007 Abilities that trigger when a player gains life may trigger as a result of this ability.


Technically the change in life total causes a player to gain or lose life in order to reach the specified amount.
It's not intuitive... but that's the way it works.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/giftedaetherborn.jpg

Vampire Nighthawk - without flying, but one mana cheaper.

[MaximumC]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Walking-Ballist.jpg

Well, Triskeleon and Hangerback Walker, you guys had a good run. Now, get your butts out of my Vintage playables. There's a new sheriff in town.


http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/giftedaetherborn.jpg

Vampire Nighthawk - without flying, but one mana cheaper.

This card is fun, but I don't think it can hold a candle to Nighthawk. Evasion+Lifelink was really, really critical. It allows you to bleed your opponent or race them against significantly better creatures on the ground. As someone who played The Gate all the time, I would not replace Nighthawk with this duder.

[Ace/Homebrew]

This card is fun, but I don't think it can hold a candle to Nighthawk. Evasion+Lifelink was really, really critical. It allows you to bleed your opponent or race them against significantly better creatures on the ground. As someone who played The Gate all the time, I would not replace Nighthawk with this duder.

Why choose between them? Does having 8 make a starting point for a Modern deck? I'm still surprised Phyrexian Obliterator doesn't see play...

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Why choose between them? Does having 8 make a starting point for a Modern deck?

its going to go into mono-black devotion decks thats for sure

[Zllig]

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/hopeofghirapur.jpg

This is pretty interesting. I wonder if not having to strain your mana for Xantid Swarm is worth a one shot psuedo silence. The only issue I see is that most decks that are siding Swarm are probably also siding Decay already.

[Darkenslight]

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/hopeofghirapur.jpg

This is pretty interesting. I wonder if not having to strain your mana for Xantid Swarm is worth a one shot psuedo silence. The only issue I see is that most decks that are siding Swarm are probably also siding Decay already.

It's also really good at stalling off Storm. I'm betting this will see play in a fair few places, although having to deal combat damage is a bit of a downer.

[Barook]

The only issue I see is that most decks that are siding Swarm are probably also siding Decay already.
Like what? Pretty much only Storm variants play Swarm.

This could go into combo decks like S&T, for example, IF they would need said effect.

Edit: That said, it comboes with Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, locking out your opponent's noncreature spells except for the tiny frame fron your upkeep until combat damage phase. Sorcery speed stuff is completely locked out.

[Dice_Box]

The need to attack dampens it's use in my eyes. I love it, but I feel like in most situations I would just run Mindbreak Trap in my sideboard.

[Noctalor]

This dude is a swarm, colorless, that can reduce the storm count by attacking and that has the potential to pseudo chantwalk againt sorceries if needed, looks promising.

[Finn]

They really have nerfed hope of Gharapur. You have to sac it on your own turn. Cool 1/1 colorless flier for 1. Very weak disruption. There is recursion with the white 2/4 in addition to Alesha for cutesies. But ehh.

[H]

Why choose between them? Does having 8 make a starting point for a Modern deck? I'm still surprised Phyrexian Obliterator doesn't see play...

Last year one of our local guys, who is always running a home brew of some strange variety, took a Mono-Black deck to Modern Regionals, using Geralf's Messenger and Phyrexian Obliterator and did quite well, top 16 for sure. IIRC, he was 6-1 and took a late loss that put him out of top 8, because his other loss was round 1. My point being, I think Obliterator is more playable than it is being played.

It wasn't a Devotion deck, but I don't recall it using Nighthawk though. I honesty do this this new card is slightly better, since it comes down earlier and blocks Swiftspear for you, which was a major issue for him.

[Noctalor]

"Locket of Myths"
3
Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, Scry 1.

Whenever you cast a creature spell, you may pay G. If you do, draw a card.

New toy for elves?

[Barook]

"Locket of Myths"
3
Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, Scry 1.

Whenever you cast a creature spell, you may pay G. If you do, draw a card.

New toy for elves?
I don't think Elves has the space for that. And they already have draw engines in Glimpse of Nature and Wirewood/Visionary. Maybe it's more relevant in Modern.

[Julian23]

New toy for elves?

Maybe in a NO-less, combo-focussed list with 4 Summoner's Pact. But Beck//Call is probably outright better in that.

I'd need to see the artwork to give final judgement.

[square_two]

I'd need to see the artwork to give final judgement.

Good to finally start seeing the right standards in this thread. :tongue:

I think I like Hope of G in artifact-focused combo decks as a replacement for the swarm. It would have a home in Artificer's Intuition and perhaps Imperial Bomberman?

[Darkenslight]

Not sure if this is the worst Rare so far, but it's got a powerful effect for its cost:

https://i.redd.it/lwybtrc81w7y.jpg

Heroic Intervention :1: :g:
Instant (R)
Permanents you control gain hexproof and indestructible until end of turn.

[Lemnear]

Not sure if this is the worst Rare so far, but it's got a powerful effect for its cost:

https://i.redd.it/lwybtrc81w7y.jpg

Heroic Intervention :1: :g:
Instant (R)
Permanents you control gain hexproof and indestructible until end of turn.

*LooksAtBannedAndRestrictedList* ... Terminus is still legal

[Final Fortune]

Hope of Ghirapor seems good in linear combo decks like Belcher or Oops, all Spells that'd want Xantid Swarm 5 thru 8 or just colorless Xantid Swarms like SI with Swamps, seems worth picking up a set of them.

[Cire]

Treasure Keeper 4
Artifact Creature - Construct
When Treasure Keeper dies, reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a nonland card with converted mana cost 3 or less. You may cast that card without paying its mana cost. Put all cards not cast this way on the bottom of your library in a random order.
3/3

I really like the fixed Cascade mechanic - doubt this card is good enough since it's a death trigger, but I think it's cool regardless.

[rufus]

This dude is a swarm, colorless, that can reduce the storm count by attacking and that has the potential to pseudo chantwalk againt sorceries if needed, looks promising.

He'd be a lot stronger with haste. Without that, sorceries are faster than he is.

[rufus]

Not that the deck is still live, but metallic rebuke might fit into U chalice/3sphere aggro shell.

[Cire]

This is a HUGE stretch . . . but:

Indomitable Creativity XRRR
Sorcery
Destroy X target artifacts and/or creatures. For each permanent destroyed this way, its controller reveals cards from the top of his or her library until an artifact or creature card is revealed and exiles that card. Those players put the exiled cards onto the battlefield, then shuffle their libraries.

Now hear me out:

Running this in a WUBR deck you can play Indomitable Creativity and Nahiri, the Harbinger as your main ways to cheat out Emrakul (which all cost 4cmc so at least it makes deckbuilding more consistent), Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom? as your token generators, and then protect the combo/stall/dig with blue draw, bolts, counters, and removal. The deck limitation would be to run no artifacts or creatures outside EMY.

Still very much doubt it would be competitive, but it sounds fun...

----

Another route could be to treat it as a 2 card 5 mana combo:

Indomitable Creativity + any 1 mana token generator into Emrakul.

It's in red so you can run any red accel spell.

Run personal tutor for tutoring and S&T along with 4 other big Eldrazi?

[thefringthing]

The bad Xantid Swarm is unplayable.

[rufus]

...
This is a HUGE stretch . . . but:



Sure, it's basically another iteration of Proteus Staff/Polymorph combo. With Servo Exhibition or other artifact token generators you can even offset some of that X in the casting cost.

Another option would be to look for stuff like Thraben Inspector, Cogworkers Puzzleknot, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, and Myr Battlesphere that produce artifact tokens, and then turn all of them over for RRR in a value play. (Edit: I think that works better in modern.)

[sco0ter]

Not that the deck is still live, but metallic rebuke might fit into U chalice/3sphere aggro shell.

Has at least synergies with Trinisphere and Winter Orb (making them one sided).

[maharis]

http://i.imgur.com/sndpH94.png

First thought is Paradoxical Outcome in Vintage, I know there is a Mentor build of the deck but this allows you to go mono U or splash something else to brick the Mentor decks while making evasive guys that can win the game if you can't get your storm combo off or whatever.

In Legacy, this seems like an possibly grinding option for Miracles or other SDT decks. Again, Mentor is a thing, but this gets around Decay and if you also play SFM you get a bunch of flying Jitte carriers. It's a little more compact than Thopter/Sword in that this would probably be a 2-of and you already play 4 tops so whatever.

It may just be worse than the established builds of those decks but it's an idea at least.

Edit: Also this would be hilarious as Aluren No. 5 that combos with Baleful Strix or Shardless Agent to make you an army of dudez instead of leaning on Parasitic Strix.

[rufus]

http://i.imgur.com/sndpH94.png

First thought is Paradoxical Outcome in Vintage, I know there is a Mentor build of the deck but this allows you to go mono U or splash something else to brick the Mentor decks while making evasive guys that can win the game if you can't get your storm combo off or whatever.
...

Thopter Spy Network seems like it grinds better and nobody plays it, and it's hard to beat the mentor if you're flipping tops.

[Coast]

Worth noting that in a fair deck, Hope can stall off a combo turn if you land it turn 1. Probably not as good as real hate though.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/karizevsexpertise.jpg

Cheaper free cast stuff. Probably still not cheap enough.

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/karizevskyshipraider.jpg

Weird card. :eyebrow:

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/heraldofanguish.jpg

And the fat EDH fatty.

[Dice_Box]

First strike and Menace on a 1 powered card? Meh. As a 3/1 that would be exciting.

[Barook]

First strike and Menace on a 1 powered card? Meh. As a 3/1 that would be exciting.
Given how it's marketed, the monkey is the main selling point. And it does enable Revolt.

[Captain Hammer]

This is a HUGE stretch . . . but:

Indomitable Creativity XRRR
Sorcery
Destroy X target artifacts and/or creatures. For each permanent destroyed this way, its controller reveals cards from the top of his or her library until an artifact or creature card is revealed and exiles that card. Those players put the exiled cards onto the battlefield, then shuffle their libraries.

Now hear me out:

Running this in a WUBR deck you can play Indomitable Creativity and Nahiri, the Harbinger as your main ways to cheat out Emrakul (which all cost 4cmc so at least it makes deckbuilding more consistent), Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom? as your token generators, and then protect the combo/stall/dig with blue draw, bolts, counters, and removal. The deck limitation would be to run no artifacts or creatures outside EMY.

Still very much doubt it would be competitive, but it sounds fun...

----

Another route could be to treat it as a 2 card 5 mana combo:

Indomitable Creativity + any 1 mana token generator into Emrakul.

It's in red so you can run any red accel spell.

Run personal tutor for tutoring and S&T along with 4 other big Eldrazi?

I gave up on making my...

Emrakul
Proteus Staff
Polymorph
Flayer Husk
Mishras Factory
Mutavault
Ancient Tomb

deck competitive because even with FoW to slow down other combo decks, it was a turn too slow for competitive legacy

However perhaps with red's mana acceleration and token generators (Flayer Husk and Factories are still an option too), it can be a turn faster to play along side big red and Madcap Experiment decks.

[Dice_Box]

Given how it's marketed, the monkey is the main selling point. And it does enable Revolt.
I guess. I mean Kari is cute but that monkey is revolting.

[Gheizen64]

Kari's Zev expertise is a really good enabler for suspend spells, vision and wheel in particular methinks. 3 Mana threaten + draw 3/wheel ain't too bad. Could even make hypergenesis/living death a deck that doesn't have to rely on stupid cascade, allowing it to run cantrips and whatsnot.

Other possibilities are to use it strictly as an accellerant, alongside with things like hymn for mad tempo, or as a nice fit card that allow you to threaten + cast a sac spell on the threatened creature for free, essentially working as a 2-for-1 free spell.

[Octopusman]

Renegade Rallier seems to be the most eye-catching card so far.
Yay for Teeg recursion, any land, etc.


Renegade Rallier
1GW
Creature - Human Warrier
Revolt - When Renegade Rallier enters the battlefield, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, return target permanent card with converted mana cost 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield.
"This fight belongs to us all."
Illus. Kiernan Yanner 3/2

[mistercakes]

Renegade Rallier seems to be the most eye-catching card so far.
Yay for Teeg recursion, any land, etc.


Renegade Rallier
1GW
Creature - Human Warrier
Revolt - When Renegade Rallier enters the battlefield, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, return target permanent card with converted mana cost 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield.
"This fight belongs to us all."
Illus. Kiernan Yanner 3/2

really would be interested in some lotus cobra shenanigans with this guy, although i'm still probably in christmasland.

[Captain Hammer]

Really hoping to get a GU creature comparable in power level to Baleful Strix so that Food Chain decks can go back to playing some maindeck Natural Orders.

Would even settle for a nice 6cc GU or green fatty that synergizes with Fierce Empath, Food Chain (by being hardcastable even without the other combo piece and being strong enough to be worth cheating into play with a Natural Order.

[Rocco111]

This is quite a promising lil dude

http://www.magic-ville.com/pics/big/aerFR/117.jpg

[Richard Cheese]

http://i.imgur.com/sndpH94.png

First thought is Paradoxical Outcome in Vintage, I know there is a Mentor build of the deck but this allows you to go mono U or splash something else to brick the Mentor decks while making evasive guys that can win the game if you can't get your storm combo off or whatever.

In Legacy, this seems like an possibly grinding option for Miracles or other SDT decks. Again, Mentor is a thing, but this gets around Decay and if you also play SFM you get a bunch of flying Jitte carriers. It's a little more compact than Thopter/Sword in that this would probably be a 2-of and you already play 4 tops so whatever.

It may just be worse than the established builds of those decks but it's an idea at least.

Edit: Also this would be hilarious as Aluren No. 5 that combos with Baleful Strix or Shardless Agent to make you an army of dudez instead of leaning on Parasitic Strix.

Clearly you want to play this and Outcome in Affinity for maximum swarming!

[HammafistRoob]

Renegade Rallier seems to be the most eye-catching card so far.
Yay for Teeg recursion, any land, etc.


Renegade Rallier
1GW
Creature - Human Warrier
Revolt - When Renegade Rallier enters the battlefield, if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn, return target permanent card with converted mana cost 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield.
"This fight belongs to us all."
Illus. Kiernan Yanner 3/2
This seems really strong with fetchlands. Forgive me if I'm wrong as I haven't played in ages and I don't know wtf revolt does? Idk I'm confused.

[Cire]

The other two Expertise are:

http://media.wizards.com/2016/c1lRLirbrl_AER/en_zlQbvSEoNO.png

and

http://media.wizards.com/2016/c1lRLirbrl_AER/en_SlG8EhxoM6.png

So if you're going to make a cascadeless hypergenesis or whatever, you'll have to make do with the other Expertises

[Dice_Box]

So each Expertise let's you cast it's namesake. Cute. I like it.

[Barook]

This is quite a promising lil dude
At least post the english version:

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/narnamrenegade.jpg

Deathtouch Kird Elf. I like it.

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/crackdownconstruct.jpg

Breakfast robot. Too expensive and lacks evasion to be any good, though.

[Star|Scream]

This seems really strong with fetchlands. Forgive me if I'm wrong as I haven't played in ages and I don't know wtf revolt does? Idk I'm confused.

It's a new keyword that does extra stuff as long as a permanent you own left the battlefield already. And it does work well with fetchlands.

[Octopusman]

really would be interested in some lotus cobra shenanigans with this guy, although i'm still probably in christmasland.

I think more immediately obvious applications are the double waste/double ghost quarter, returning prison pieces like Teeg/Thalia, removal a la Pridemage, or even ramp with fetch, this, fetch again.
Also gets back whatever half of Dark Depths combo they wasted.

I get into Christmas Land thinking about how fun Unearth is with this guy.


This guy is like Snapcaster's cousin who gets permanents back instead of spells but the permanent only ever costs 1 even if it had CMC2.
Pretty surprised that this card isn't being discussed more...

[RobNC]

I think more immediately obvious applications are the double waste/double ghost quarter, returning prison pieces like Teeg/Thalia, removal a la Pridemage, or even ramp with fetch, this, fetch again.
Also gets back whatever half of Dark Depths combo they wasted.

I get into Christmas Land thinking about how fun Unearth is with this guy.


This guy is like Snapcaster's cousin who gets permanents back instead of spells but the permanent only ever costs 1 even if it had CMC2.
Pretty surprised that this card isn't being discussed more...

I feel like it'll do better in Maverick style decks; I'm looking forward to trying him as a 1-of. Nic Fit style decks willl probably still want Eternal Witness instead.

[Mr.C]

At least post the english version:

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/narnamrenegade.jpg

Deathtouch Kird Elf. I like it.

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/crackdownconstruct.jpg

Breakfast robot. Too expensive and lacks evasion to be any good, though.

I mean, robot plus zero activation plus altar of dementia or whatever is an insta kill against decks without emrakul.

[MaximumC]

I mean, robot plus zero activation plus altar of dementia or whatever is an insta kill against decks without emrakul.

Breakfast Robot makes me happy. Ima get some and paint a cereal spoon in his hand.

Actually, this whole set makes me happy. So many terrible combos, so little time.

[Cire]

Breakfast Robot makes me happy. Ima get some and paint a cereal spoon in his hand.

Actually, this whole set makes me happy. So many terrible combos, so little time.

I agree! And Breakfast Robot can combo entirely as an artifact:

Shuko + Crackdown Construct + Altar of Dementia (7 generic mana)

Put that in a deck with accel and enlightened tutor ..... maybe some generic artifact lock pieces ...

[MaximumC]

I agree! And Breakfast Robot can combo entirely as an artifact:

Shuko + Crackdown Construct + Altar of Dementia (7 generic mana)

Put that in a deck with accel and enlightened tutor ..... maybe some generic artifact lock pieces ...

I dont think you need the altar. You have a 1,000,000/1,000,000 dork. All you need to do is make sure it connects.

[Cire]

I dont think you need the altar. You have a 1,000,000/1,000,000 dork. All you need to do is make sure it connects.

Connecting is the hard part. . .

But hmm just a random rough deck idea

The Combo

4 Shuko
4 Crackdown Construct
4 Altar of Dementia

Artifact Search/Draw

4 Transmute Artifact
4 Enlightened tutor
4 SFM (Search for Shuko?)
4 Brainstorm

Artifacts to Sac for Transmute if need be (?)

4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
1 Sword of Feast/Famine (?) (Swords can be targets for Transmute and/or help you connect with giant construct)
1 Batterskull

Mana

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Fetch Lands
4 U/W Dual

[filln]

Connecting is the hard part. . .

But hmm just a random rough deck idea

The Combo

4 Shuko
4 Crackdown Construct
4 Altar of Dementia

Artifact Search/Draw

4 Transmute Artifact
4 Enlightened tutor
4 SFM (Search for Shuko?)
4 Brainstorm

Artifacts to Sac for Transmute if need be (?)

4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
1 Sword of Feast/Famine (?) (Swords can be targets for Transmute and/or help you connect with giant construct)
1 Batterskull

Mana

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Fetch Lands
4 U/W Dual

I'm thinking of slotting Breakfast Robot into Life.dec

It can be found via Recruiter and Enlightened Tutor and you can use Swords to Plowshares to gain infinite life. Slot in Mother of Runes in there for protection and you can likely just swing in for lethal pretty easily. Maybe do a one of Altar of Dementia or Aetherflux Reservoir for an alt-wincon that can be searched up via Tutor.

[mistercakes]

I think more immediately obvious applications are the double waste/double ghost quarter, returning prison pieces like Teeg/Thalia, removal a la Pridemage, or even ramp with fetch, this, fetch again.
Also gets back whatever half of Dark Depths combo they wasted.

I get into Christmas Land thinking about how fun Unearth is with this guy.


This guy is like Snapcaster's cousin who gets permanents back instead of spells but the permanent only ever costs 1 even if it had CMC2.
Pretty surprised that this card isn't being discussed more...

Don't you just want to bring back standstill? What other cards come to mind as powerful? Maybe focus on enchantments and artifacts to consider what would provide huge value.

[Zombie]

I'm thinking of slotting Breakfast Robot into Life.dec

It can be found via Recruiter and Enlightened Tutor and you can use Swords to Plowshares to gain infinite life. Slot in Mother of Runes in there for protection and you can likely just swing in for lethal pretty easily. Maybe do a one of Altar of Dementia or Aetherflux Reservoir for an alt-wincon that can be searched up via Tutor.

http://i.imgur.com/7fBiqos.png
http://i.imgur.com/ZfSmL5d.jpg

[MaximumC]

I still think that making Capt. Crackdown into a 3-card combo is a mistake. Pair him with black and red, and you get the best ways to go infinite with him AND lots of removal to punch him though. Consider this core:

Crackdown Construction
Demonspine Whip
Lavaclaw Reaches

Pair it with discard, heavy removal, some tutoring, and other cards who play nicely with whip.

Note: Chimeric Staff works, too, but is terrible.

[Barook]

I'm thinking of slotting Breakfast Robot into Life.dec

It can be found via Recruiter and Enlightened Tutor and you can use Swords to Plowshares to gain infinite life. Slot in Mother of Runes in there for protection and you can likely just swing in for lethal pretty easily. Maybe do a one of Altar of Dementia or Aetherflux Reservoir for an alt-wincon that can be searched up via Tutor.
Recruiter also adds the advantage that it can find Kor creatures to combo off with Breakfast Robo.

My main concern is how to close out the game. Altar of Dementia works, sure, but it doesn't strike me as a good wincon. Sadly, all creature cards that deal damage based on creature power are overcosted crap. And Flinging stuff isn't really that good, either.

The question is what route to go. A Recruiter/SFM package sounds pretty solid as a base and a back-up plan if your combo gets wrecked. Either more search for combo pieces? Or redundancy for the infinite combo? Daru Spiritualist (preferable, since Recruiterable)/Task Force + Twisted Image or Assault Formation can also deal infinite damage, although it involves connecting to the opponent.

@Zombie: Lol, did they just reprint Splinter Twin in Standard? :eyebrow:

[MaximumC]

@Zombie: Lol, die they just reprint Splinter Twin in Standard? :eyebrow:

The internet sure thinks so. She's spiked from $5 to $25 dolla in the last day.

[Barook]

A shame WotC will call it "Jeskai Saheeli Twin" instead of "Crazy Cat Lady".

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/uja7yui_9699.jpg

[MaximumC]

A shame WotC will call it "Jeskai Saheeli Twin" instead of "Crazy Cat Lady".

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/uja7yui_9699.jpg

Why cats...?

[Barook]

Felidar Guardian is a Cat Beast.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Basalt monolith? Helps to power him out and goes infinite with itself. Also artifact synergy sol land mana base you get it....

[Barook]

Basalt Monolith is actually a great find since it's more synergistic with the entire thing and doesn't require a "bad" shell to go infinite.

Edit: Other infinite activation cards:

Chimeric Idol
Sentinel

Especially Idol seems attractive, aside from Monolith. Maybe blue Stax with with blue Mage that can search for artifacts that cost :3:? Would find lock pieces, Monolith, Altar of Dementia, etc. - Inventor's Fair could be used as an additional tutor, too.

Edit #2: If you have Lightning Greaves and another creature in play, you could go infinite as well, with haste as suprise factor.

[rufus]

Basalt Monolith is actually a great find since it's more synergistic with the entire thing and doesn't require a "bad" shell to go infinite.

Edit: Other infinite activation cards:
...

Mirror Entity,Nomads En-Kor, Frenetic Efreet (and sliver),Illusionary Mask and Demonspine Whip.

Make your own judgements about badness.

[ReAnimator]

I like basalt monolith, then you can run wake thrasher too for more redundancy in the infinite power and toughness dudes department.

[The Nobodys]

As someone who has recently played Cephalid Breakfast at my local legacy scene, I'll definitely use Breakfast Robot out of the board in games when I ditch the graveyard-based cephalid combo in favor of beats. Nomads en-Kor already pairs well with TNN, (in that nomads can block forever), and this guy plays that roll just as well. Abrupt Decay can't hit him, and with a Nomads out, you can't StP him either. +1 with him being tutorable by Recruiter of the Guard.

Also, I'd much rather run him with Lightning Greaves than any other equipment. Requires two guys, but that is a small hurdle for a bigger reward.

[Barook]

Mirror Entity
How exactly are you going to deal damage when you make all your creatures 0/0 at one point? :really:


I like basalt monolith, then you can run wake thrasher too for more redundancy in the infinite power and toughness dudes department.
Sound good, as it's blue like the Mage that fetches 3-mana artifacts. What's its name again? I can't find it.

Edit: I also like the synergy with Ensnaring Bridge - keep 1 (or 2) cards in hand, swing, go infinite.


Also, I'd much rather run him with Lightning Greaves than any other equipment. Requires two guys, but that is a small hurdle for a bigger reward.
So Robo, Wake Thrasher, 3-mana Fetch Mage, what else? Lodestone Golem? Mishra's Factory?

[rufus]

How exactly are you going to deal damage when you make all your creatures 0/0 at one point? :really:

You have to stack a bunch of entity activations for 0 since the first one kills the Mirror Entity when it resolves, but the +1/+1 is a P/T modifying ability, so it gets applied "on top of" the P/T setting ability from Mirror Entity so the breakfast robot never dies.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

4 horsemen already plays the monolith; Maybe you can add this for a plan B; or idk reanimate him with haste.

[Barook]

4 horsemen already plays the monolith; Maybe you can add this for a plan B; or idk reanimate him with haste.
Isn't the Four Horsemen still plagued by the slowplay problem today?

[MaximumC]

Isn't the Four Horsemen still plagued by the slowplay problem today?

Oh my yes. I can link to my article-in-progress on loops and slow play again of people are wondering. ;)

[Infinitium]

Sly Requisitioner (4B 2/2 with improvise creating 1/1 servo creatures when an artifact dies) looks like it can slot into oldschool affinity builds with Disciple of the Vault and Arcbound Ravager; getting 2 damage per artefact is prett good reach assuming they're all in play, and no piece is downright bad on its own. As for the Crackdown Construct, just slot him into existing Metalworker/Artifact Stompy builds? Equip is an ability after all; turn 1 Lightning Greaves into turn 2 Metalworker into that.

[rufus]

Sly Requisitioner (4B 2/2 with improvise creating 1/1 servo creatures when an artifact dies) looks like it can slot into oldschool affinity builds with Disciple of the Vault and Arcbound Ravager; getting 2 damage per artefact is prett good reach assuming they're all in play, and no piece is downright bad on its own. As for the Crackdown Construct, just slot him into existing Metalworker/Artifact Stompy builds? Equip is an ability after all; turn 1 Lightning Greaves into turn 2 Metalworker into that.

It does seem like they're pushing for an 'artifact turnover' deck with Servo Schematic, Scrap Trawler, Indomitable Creativity, and Pia's Revolution.

ON the topic of ravager synergies, does the improved Triskelion (Walking Ballista) find any home in legacy?

[Lord Seth]

Isn't the Four Horsemen still plagued by the slowplay problem today?
I think it can technically bypass it if it has a Sidisi in play (as Sidisi's token generators count as progressing the board state), but that's tricky to pull off in the deck.

[filln]

First cut of a Crackdown Construct combo with Lightning Greaves/Basalt Monolith/Aphetto Alchemist.

4 Crackdown Construct
1 Altar of Dementia
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
3 Azorius Signet

4 Aphetto Alchemist
4 Brainstorm
3 Transmute Artifact

4 Apostle's Blessing
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Windswept Heath
2 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra


Unclear on the exact mix between the combo pieces but I figure with Enlightened Tutor and Transmute Artifact it's better to be less on the artifact pieces. Plus you need a second creature for the Lightning Greaves to work infinitely. The Alchemist does have summoning sickness though and easier for the opponent to remove. He does help accelerate some mana with the Monoliths though and besides, he has MORPH.

Manabase is still a bit shaky and perhaps the Academy Ruins is unnecessary and just slows the whole thing down.

For a sideboard, I was thinking a possibility could be a transformational one to Rest in Peace/Helm of Obedience/Energy Field. Other good options are Detention Sphere or Dispatch.

EDIT: I suppose Talisman of Progress would be a better choice than Azorius Signet in this case.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

First cut of a Crackdown Construct combo with Lightning Greaves/Basalt Monolith/Aphetto Alchemist.
deck



Add SFM so you can better re-equip! And maybe a evasive equipment idk...

[Barook]

@filln: Wouldn't it be more consistent and faster to cut down on the tutoring and use 4 Monolith/4 Alchemist + 4 CC/4 Waketresher as base before adding stuff? :eyebrow: I like how the pieces are interchangable.

[Cire]

@filln: Wouldn't it be more consistent and faster to cut down on the tutoring and use 4 Monolith/4 Alchemist + 4 CC/4 Waketresher as base before adding stuff? :eyebrow: I like how the pieces are interchangable.

I like this idea. Maybe we can add MOM as a redundant way to go for the dome along with Altar?

4 Crackdown Construct
4 Aphetto Alchemist
4 Mother of Runes
4 Wake Trasher

4 Basalt Monolith
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Altar of Dementia

4 Spots for protection/removal/accel/search ? (probably blue?)

20 Lands

[filln]

@filln: Wouldn't it be more consistent and faster to cut down on the tutoring and use 4 Monolith/4 Alchemist + 4 CC/4 Waketresher as base before adding stuff? :eyebrow: I like how the pieces are interchangable.

Great point. I must admit I completely forgot about Wake Thrasher and also have a soft spot for artifact ramp decks.

EDIT: Looks like a thread has just been made about this deck so we don't have to clog up the Aether Revolt thread! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31268-AER-Thrash-Metal-(UW-Untap-activation-combo)

[rufus]

I'm wondering whether there are better mechanized production targets. Stuff like Sphere of Resistance, Tidehollow Sculler, Jester's Scepter that shuts them down somehow and Myr Battlesphere or something else that makes lots of tokens came to mind.

[bruizar]

I like mobile garrison. It's a more functional voltaic key that doesn't get countered by chalice for one. It's able to untap Goblin Welder, Metalworker and Grim Monolith and is crewed by Factories. Not sure if good enough, but it piqued my interest.

Aethersphere Harvester is also interesting imo.

I'm willing to gamble that Tezzeret, the Schemer better than Agent of Bolas, so quote me on that and make fun of me when I'm wrong. I think it's great value at its current price.

[MaximumC]

I think it can technically bypass it if it has a Sidisi in play (as Sidisi's token generators count as progressing the board state), but that's tricky to pull off in the deck.

No, unless the judge is sloppy. The problem with 4H is not that it fails to "advance the board state, " but instead that it cannot use the shortcut rules to execute a non-deterministic loop.

[Dice_Box]

I think it can technically bypass it if it has a Sidisi in play (as Sidisi's token generators count as progressing the board state), but that's tricky to pull off in the deck.

No. At this point you have demonstrated a loop for making Tokens. You would be asked to shortcut the token generation and state the number you are making. Repeating the same loop over and over for the stated reason of now making tokens would be slow play.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[filln]

I'm willing to gamble that Tezzeret, the Schemer better than Agent of Bolas, so quote me on that and make fun of me when I'm wrong. I think it's great value at its current price.

Do you see the new Tezz fitting in Tezzerator, a different existing deck, or a new shell entirely?

[Captain Hammer]

Since everyone is posting their take on the combo, I'll add what I think is the most potent version of the deck here...

Construct Stompy

10 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Apostle's Blessing
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
2 Daze

4 Lightning Greaves
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Aphetto Alchemist
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Crackdown Construct

SB:
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Altar of Dementia
3 Trinisphere
3 Back to Basics
3 Misdirection

The sideboard is up in the air but the maindeck is just about perfect as is imo. I think this is by far the most optimal approach to take this combo. It's very resilient and packed with hate against other decks. Perhaps the only area that needs further refinement is the manabase.

[rufus]

No. At this point you have demonstrated a loop for making Tokens. You would be asked to shortcut the token generation and state the number you are making. Repeating the same loop over and over for the stated reason of now making tokens would be slow play. ...

How can you shortcut it? Rule 719.2 requires "...predictable outcome of a series of choices..." but the loop involves flips from a shuffled library which is not predictable.

Edit: More tangibly: Suppose someone makes 20 tokens, how many Narcomeobas are in play when that's done?

[bruizar]

Do you see the new Tezz fitting in Tezzerator, a different existing deck, or a new shell entirely?

The thing with New Tezz is that it can slot into a non-artifact centric deck. With AoB's +1, you need to design your deck in such a way that you're going to play a lot of artifacts so that you hit one in the top 5 cards. That constraint is now gone. Also, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast is the best planeswalker in grixis tezz because it can kill 2 creatures and still live, and that ability requires you to sacrifice an artifact. New Tezz shoots down 2 creatures and lives, its emblem makes terminus invalid as a solution, and the mana ramp provides fodder for the other two abilities, plus it gets you mana ramp and mana fix in one go. It also perfectly enables Fatal Push' revolt.

[MaximumC]

So, here's a question.

Why is Walking Ballista plummeting to a $2.00 preorder ($8.00 foil) and why is the Legacy Affinity thread not bumping with people building with this?

[Darkenslight]

So, here's a question.

Why is Walking Ballista plummeting to a $2.00 preorder ($8.00 foil) and why is the Legacy Affinity thread not bumping with people building with this?

The cost of the put a counter on is way too high. It seems like a decent card, but it's also extremely risky, especially with it costing 2 mana for a single ping.

[Dice_Box]

It's going to see play in Stax and Bomber Man, but I don't know what else. The reason is both those decks can make an arbitrary amount of Mana. I suspect it's home will be the last piece of a combo quite often, and little else.

[rufus]

The cost of the put a counter on is way too high. It seems like a decent card, but it's also extremely risky, especially with it costing 2 mana for a single ping.

Doesn't cost any more to put a counter on it than to put a counter on Triskelion. Legacy affinity doesn't play games with +1/+1 counters, but shops and modern affinity do.

[MaximumC]

The cost of the put a counter on is way too high. It seems like a decent card, but it's also extremely risky, especially with it costing 2 mana for a single ping.

I don't think that's right at all. This card is really good, certainly at least as good as Hangarback, and it all-but-completely obsoletes Triskeleon.

Like Trike, Ballista gives Ravager “double strike” in the sense that you can swing with Ravager, then sac Ravager to itself and modulate the counters over to Ballista and unload. It’s a potential turn 2 kill with the right hand, but ignoring that, the ability to turn Ravager counters into free pings is totally nuts. Being able to do this for 2 mana instead of 6 is huge.

On top of all of that, when you’re not doing amazing things, this is an artifact Fireball. For as much as you want to spend, it converts 2 mana into 1 damage. Does there exist a better source of mana-to-damage in artifacts? In all of Magic? I guess Aeoplile converts 3-to-2, so that’s better, but other than that I’m coming up short.

And then they have the audacity to give it a way to ramp itself up if you have 4 spare mana in the midgame? Insanity.

....and it gets EVEN BETTER. This guy is a mana sink for infinite mana combos to win the game -- from your hand OR FROM PLAY. He's a winning part of Hulk-Flash style lists. It slices, it dices, it does your laundry!

[Begle1]

I don't think that's right at all. This card is really good, certainly at least as good as Hangarback, and it all-but-completely obsoletes Triskeleon.



Triskelion has a use beyond Mike + Trike or Phyrexian Devourer/ Necrotic Ooze combo?

Walking Ballista seems $1 combo piece to me. It's not near as good as Hangerback, value-per-mana wise.

[Cire]

For fun, maybe some type of Construct Tribal?

Mana

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Lands

4 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the void

Constructs

4 Hangarback Walker
4 Walking Ballista
4 Adaptive Automaton
4 Chief of the Foundry
4 Foundry Inspector
4 Memnite
4 Steel Overseer

Non-Construct Creatures

4 Arcbound Ravager

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Also just saying its not strictly better than triskelion. 4/4 > 3/3

[Begle1]

For fun, maybe some type of Construct Tribal?

Mana

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Lands

4 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the void

Constructs

4 Hangarback Walker
4 Walking Ballista
4 Adaptive Automaton
4 Chief of the Foundry
4 Foundry Inspector
4 Memnite
4 Steel Overseer

Non-Construct Creatures

4 Arcbound Ravager

Metalworker, Voltaic Construct and Kuldotha Forgemaster are all constructs too. :smile:

[MaximumC]

Also just saying its not strictly better than triskelion. 4/4 > 3/3

It's all-but-completely better. You don't reach for a Trike because you want to pay 6 for a 4/4. You do so because you want a way to snipe off heatbears, act as a force multiplier with Ravager, and give you some reach. Having a card that can do this at 2, 4, 6, 8, or whatever instead of just at 6.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Metallic Mimic + Walking Ballista + Enduring Renewal ... slow for Legacy but maybe just right for Modern?

[MaximumC]

Metallic Mimic + Walking Ballista + Enduring Renewal ... slow for Legacy but maybe just right for Modern?

Is renewal modern legal?

Anyway, that clown card never works out how you want. It has to come down after everything else is assembled, which is a huge pain in the rear. Is there another way to get this effect?

[Dice_Box]

Metalworker, Staff, Walker.

[Barook]

Is renewal modern legal?
It's timeshifted, so yes.

[MaximumC]

Just to point out, now that people have had a chance to actually play with Walking Ballista, the price has gone from $3.00 nonfoil to near $8.00 nonfoil since the 15th.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Aether+Revolt/Walking+Ballista#paper

Card is good.

[Octopusman]

121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.

Metallic Mimic can act like Melira 5-8 naming ouphe/assasin to do infinite life/damage with sac outlet.

Does having more Meliraish effects improve this strategy or is GSZ for Melira make it unnecessary?

[MaximumC]

121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.

Metallic Mimic can act like Melira 5-8 naming ouphe/assasin to do infinite life/damage with sac outlet.

Does having more Meliraish effects improve this strategy or is GSZ for Melira make it unnecessary?

It's awfully nice. Anafenza did something similar, but it was WW.