Tournament rule changes

[Barook]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/magic-tournament-rules-release-notes-2016-09-26

Mostly minor stuff, except pile shuffling isn't really considered randomizing anymore. And the Conspiracy/Ante banlist bullshit has been kept in check.

[whienot]

Only 1 pile shuffle allowed per randomization. I like it.

[.dk]

I don't think this enough, really. Should be once per match, prior to the 1st game for counting. Beyond that, don't justify it around sufficient randomization, justify it around time constraints.

[Dice_Box]

I don't think this enough, really. Should be once per match, prior to the 1st game for counting. Beyond that, don't justify it around sufficient randomization, justify it around time constraints.

I do it twice, 7 piles, placing on a random pile each time. The reason is, my shuffling skills are poor and I always seem to get stuck with land clumps. If I was at a large event, I would just pass my deck to a judge over trying my luck.

Just to note. I have issues shuffling due to extensive damage in my left hand. Most of it was rebuilt as a kid and I have near on no sensation in it. I am also left handed. These things together mean as much as I try, I can not solve the issues I have with shuffling, because I need to be looking at whatever I am doing with my left hand or I will drop the item in question. A judge becomes my only reasonable out.

[Ace/Homebrew]

At least you can still play the piano! :smile:

https://media.giphy.com/media/tYAolvs3tZIhG/giphy.gif


Was pile shuffling really a huge factor in 'rated' tournaments from a time-wasting standpoint?

[Aggro_zombies]

Sometimes. Mostly, it was a cheating thing, since a crappy mash or well-done riffle meant your deck was only semi-random.

It's more a quality of life thing at the level most people play at. I'm sure everyone here has played against the dude who obsessively pile shuffles before every game and then does one mash and presents his deck like he didn't just waste five minutes of your life.

[PirateKing]

...a player may only pile shuffle once each time a deck is randomized.
So after every fetch I can pile?

I generally pile at the start of each game, exactly to count the number of cards without having to keep the numbers in my head. So I get that, but also piling it in the middle of a game seems excessive.

[rufus]

So after every fetch I can pile?...

You could go with the 1-minute 'wash' shuffle.

[Richard Cheese]

I do it twice, 7 piles, placing on a random pile each time. The reason is, my shuffling skills are poor and I always seem to get stuck with land clumps. If I was at a large event, I would just pass my deck to a judge over trying my luck.


Isn't clumping one of the hallmarks of true randomization? Even if you are not consciously trying to follow any kind of pattern when choosing the next pile, it's going to be hard to actually do it randomly. You'd end up with piles of drastically different sizes lots of the time, and even then it would be hard to convince a skeptical opponent that you're not placing the next card deliberately.

I can't really riffle shuffle either. No good excuse or anything, I just suck at it and haven't tried to learn. Best I can do is the side/mash shuffle and even then I have to look at what I'm doing. Hasn't really been a problem though, as I try to keep everything face-down. Or it could just be that I lose often enough that nobody actually cares.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I don't like creases in my money, so I don't riffle.

Found this site trying to find the term for what is called an 'overhand' shuffle...
http://www.wikihow.com/Shuffle-a-Deck-of-Playing-Cards
I was expecting the videos to actually show the entire shuffle, not repeat steps in a loop. I sat there like :eyebrow: when the first video kept showing a hand holding a pack of cards from different angles...

Anyways, I alternate mashing with overhand shuffling.
I only pile to calm my nerves or make myself feel better after drawing too many/few lands.

[Dice_Box]

Isn't clumping one of the hallmarks of true randomization? Even if you are not consciously trying to follow any kind of pattern when choosing the next pile, it's going to be hard to actually do it randomly. You'd end up with piles of drastically different sizes lots of the time, and even then it would be hard to convince a skeptical opponent that you're not placing the next card deliberately.

Yes, it can be. But after a game where you have separated all your Lands and spells just be the nature of playing, you end up with two clumps. I have issues separating them by shuffling alone.

[Mr. Safety]

https://youtu.be/kr_z37TgQO4

[slave]

I tend to just hand shuffle. I'll tell my opponent to cut my deck, poker style, if they ever suspect shenanigan's are afoot.
And yeah, I've asked the cut an opponents' deck when I suspect them of being funny too.

[Megadeus]

I pile at the beginning of a match usually. Sometimes in between games, but I play at a quick pace so I've never had an issue when shuffling

[Scott]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/magic-tournament-rules-release-notes-2016-09-26

Mostly minor stuff, except pile shuffling isn't really considered randomizing anymore. And the Conspiracy/Ante banlist bullshit has been kept in check.

Pleased to see that.

[Cartesian]

Nice to finally see Conspiracy cards gone from the banlist. Ante cards too, for that matter.


I tend to just hand shuffle. I'll tell my opponent to cut my deck, poker style, if they ever suspect shenanigan's are afoot.
And yeah, I've asked the cut an opponents' deck when I suspect them of being funny too.
You are doing it wrong, IMHO. A decision to shuffle or cut an opponent's deck should never be based on a suspicion.

[twndomn]

Certainly a step in the correct direction. Lossett's crusade has worked!

[MaximumC]

Yes, it can be. But after a game where you have separated all your Lands and spells just be the nature of playing, you end up with two clumps. I have issues separating them by shuffling alone.

I mean, you've heard this all before, but here it is again:

If you find that pile shuffling creates a different distribution of lands in your deck from true randomization (riffle shuffling, etc) then that is a Bad Thing. (I won't use the "c" word here because I don't want to inflame anyone's passions). If you pile shuffle because you think it avoids land clumps, you are doing a Bad Thing.

I think what you're trying to say is that you never learned to properly riffle shuffle, but that's ok, you can use other kinds of shuffles, too. Or you can let your opponent (a.k.a Ol' Cheeto-Fingers) do it. (You are double-sleevin, right?) There's really no excuse for the ol' Pile Shuffle except to help count the cards to make sure you didn't keep your sideboard cards in.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I think what you're trying to say is that you never learned to properly riffle shuffle, but that's ok, you can use other kinds of shuffles, too.


I have issues shuffling due to extensive damage in my left hand. Most of it was rebuilt as a kid and I have near on no sensation in it. I am also left handed.

The Six Million Dollar Mate gets a pass. :cool:

[Claymore]

Anyone else a fan of the 60 card pick up shuffle?

[MaximumC]

The Six Million Dollar Mate gets a pass. :cool:

How... did he manage to stay left handed after his left hand was "rebuilt?" What on Earth happened? I'm picturing him trying to use one of those automatic card shufflers as a kid and things going horribly, horribly wrong.

[Dice_Box]

Most people think I am right handed. It doesn't look like I am left handed if you watch me. I am naturally dependent on my left hand, but I draw and play cards with my right.

What happened? Motorbikes.

[Barook]

What happened? Motorbikes.
http://happywithgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/card-games-on-motorcycles-gif.gif

[thecrav]

Only 1 pile shuffle allowed per randomization. I like it.

The full rule with the relevant bit bolded because vBulletin auto-italicizes quotes:



3.9 Card Shuffling
Decks must be randomized at the start of every game and whenever an instruction requires it. Randomization is
defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of
cards in any portion of the deck. Pile shuffling alone is not sufficiently random and may not be performed more
than once any time a deck is being randomized.

Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are
legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of
being damaged during this process. If the opponent does not believe the player made a reasonable effort to
randomize his or her deck, the opponent must notify a judge. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their
cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judge’s discretion.

If a player has had the opportunity to see any of the card faces of the deck being shuffled, the deck is no longer
considered randomized and must be randomized again.

At Competitive and Professional Rules Enforcement Level tournaments, players are required to shuffle their
opponents’ decks after their owners have shuffled them. The Head Judge can require this at Regular Rules
Enforcement Level tournaments as we


I really really don't because now I'm explicitly allowed one pile shuffle per randomization. A deck that's looking to go 1-0-1 can abuse the hell out of this.

Easy example:
1. Pile shuffle before drawing opening hand.
2. Pile shuffle their deck (you're allowed to randomize it and at competetive or higher, you're required to!)
3. Open with a fetchland.
4. Play ponder and shuffle.

I've just timed myself at just over 20 seconds to pile shuffle, not including the time you'd need to actually shuffle after making your piles. A sufficiently annoying player could use this allowance to waste several minutes per match.

Additionally, a deck that mulls to oblivion (eg, I routinely mulligan to 4 and 5 with Reanimator) will have several randomizations just in their pre-game procedures. Each one is now allowed a pile shuffle.

This is the part where someone tells me that I'll get called for stalling. And I agree that I should. But is there any other action in the game that I'm explicitly allowed where I'll get called for stalling just for doing it?

I also take issue with them referring to it as "pile shuffling." Part of Joe's crusade was to emphasize that it is not shuffling, a fact which the MTR now addresses. But we're still calling it shuffling. It should be pile counting and be considered a stalling version of counting your deck like a normal human being.

[Koby]

The rule is bad. It should disallow piling altogether. WotC just appeased the idiots who don't know how to shuffle and consequentially will make all their events last longer than necessary.

What a blight!

[slave]

You are doing it wrong, IMHO. A decision to shuffle or cut an opponent's deck should never be based on a suspicion.

What would suggest I do instead?

[Dice_Box]

What would suggest I do instead?

Shuffle every time.

[Cartesian]

Always shuffle or at least cut. This is done to make it harder to cheat in general - it is not situation based.
Sort of like you always wash your hands in certain situations, just to make sure.

It is not your job to randomize your opponent's deck.
If a deck is presented to you, and you feel it is not sufficiently randomized, you should ask your opponent to shuffle a bit more. Preferably without offending him or her.
If a deck is presented to you, and you feel it is not sufficiently randomized, and that it was done intentionally to gain some kind of statistical advantage, call a judge.

[caesar]

Shuffle every time.

Yep, I always feel bad if my deck doesnt got cut and I open a supreme hand. This puts me in a position where my opponent might think I cheated and regret that decision afterwards. Maybe its just paranoid but I think it is a matter of good behaviour cutting at least once so both players added their randomness to the pile.

[rufus]

The full rule with the relevant bit bolded because vBulletin auto-italicizes quotes:



I really really don't because now I'm explicitly allowed one pile shuffle per randomization. A deck that's looking to go 1-0-1 can abuse the hell out of this.

Easy example:
1. Pile shuffle before drawing opening hand.
2. Pile shuffle their deck (you're allowed to randomize it and at competetive or higher, you're required to!)
3. Open with a fetchland.
4. Play ponder and shuffle.


Don't forget to pile shuffle the opponent's deck too.

[Meekrab]

Anyone else a fan of the 60 card pick up shuffle?
I'm also a fan of Bogosort (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogosort)

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Most people think I am right handed. It doesn't look like I am left handed if you watch me. I am naturally dependent on my left hand, but I draw and play cards with my right.

What happened? Motorbikes.

Thats the experience for most left handed people (least in my experience).

[thefringthing]

My preference was always for an update to the IPG that would punish every instance of pile shuffling with public shaming, confiscation of property, and execution by firing squad, but I guess this is a step in the right direction.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Am I the only one who dislikes this rule because pile shuffling isn't cheating when paired with other forms of shuffling?

Like I have a habit of doing a few overhand and mash shuffles, then blind pile shuffling into four piles once, then a few more overhand and mash shuffles, then, pending that I broke the deck down at the start of the event (in the case of knowing my 75), I'll do another blind pile shuffle of four piles, then finish with another batch of overhands and mashes.

Why? Because by not doing that extra pile I have issues not just with clumping of types of cards, but with clumping of multiple copies of several cards. And that's because I chose to break down my deck at the start and not do what I call splicing, or evenly distributing your lands and nonlands throughout the deck prior to the first match (which I hope was banhammered long before this).

I also should say I only pile shuffle once at the start of each game of the event after the first.

[thecrav]

Am I the only one who dislikes this rule because pile shuffling isn't cheating when paired with other forms of shuffling?

Whether pile "shuffling" is cheating depends on how many times you do it and whether you consider "shuffling" when you're supposed to be shuffling to be stalling.

I'm annoyed that they even referred to it as "shuffling."

[Meekrab]

Whether pile "shuffling" is cheating depends on how many times you do it and whether you consider "shuffling" when you're supposed to be shuffling to be stalling.

I'm annoyed that they even referred to it as "shuffling."
Well it is shuffling. It isn't randomizing, though.

shuffle
verb (used without object)
5. to intermix so as to change the relative positions of cards in a pack.

There is a reason nobody ever pile shuffles a poker deck, though.

[Julian23]

Why? Because by not doing that extra pile I have issues not just with clumping of types of cards, but with clumping of multiple copies of several cards.

Good luck telling a judge you're pile-sorting to increase the overall quality of your draws as opposed to doing just regular shuffles.

[Dice_Box]

Well it is shuffling. It isn't randomizing, though.

shuffle
verb (used without object)
5. to intermix so as to change the relative positions of cards in a pack.

There is a reason nobody ever pile shuffles a poker deck, though.

I always pile after a game of Solitaire though. Because you end up with runs of cards and you just need to split the runs. Same thing here. You end up with Lands and spells split. You want to mingle them again.

[Julian23]

What you're describing is no differenent from mana-weaving or stacking your deck in any other way. The stuff Anteri was busted for.


The only reason people feel genuinely less guilty about pile sorting in those "split-up-clusters" scenarios is because it's done face-down, so they don't need to see what they're doing.

[Dice_Box]

Call it what you like. But if I am physically unable to remove actual "Stacking" in my deck (Lands here, spells here) by hand over hand shuffles, I will do what I can in any other way available to me. I lay out 7 piles, pick one at random and put a card down. I have no idea what goes where, there is no order to it, all I want is seven piles of cards I can pick up, shuffling as I do because smaller piles are ok for me and offer over my deck.

Otherwise I have to hand a non shuffled deck over or watch my hands as I do it. I did a test, last night I tried to shuffle. I dropped one guys deck three times. This rule is shit for me.

[Julian23]

It's more like a myth that regular shuffles won't unclump a deck quickly. In fact just 7 riffle shuffles will almost perfectly randomize (https://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffiles/20002.4-6.shtml) a deck of 52 cards. Hand-over-hand aka shotgun shuffles are pretty bad though. Something like 2500 of them to make almost every configuration of the deck equally likely.

Also, if you don't wanna riffle shuffle your deck because it bends the cards, you can just leave out the bending part and make the deck "fall" into itself. It's a bit trickier but I think you know what I mean. Just make sure to always have the top and bottom cards change.

I can understand that it causes physical issues for you and probably quite a few other people though. Like, I remember a friend of mine who would either spend aeons trying to overhand/shotgun shuffle a deck (let alone riffle shuffle) or just drop everything on the floor as soon as he attempted to speed it up. But I guess practice is the only answer. It's not like it's super difficult. But I'm speaking from a position of someone who had to make an actual effort to stop his addiciton to shuffling. For several years I would actually feel really uncomfortable when trying to concentrate without shuffling a deck. I would sometimes even bring a deck to work to just shuffle to relax myself and build focus...:eek:

[Cartesian]

It's more like a myth that regular shuffles won't unclump a deck quickly. In fact just 7 riffle shuffles will almost perfectly randomize (https://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffiles/20002.4-6.shtml) a deck of 52 cards.
That 52 card poker deck doesn't use sleeves, though. If there is no such thing as "stickyness" between cards in deck, then all talk about chumps of lands/cards sticking together is a myth, and pile shuffling is a complete waste af time. That is probably the case. But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that it is true that cards with sleeves can have a small tendency to "stick" together, even during extended normal shuffling. This tendency may or may not depend on the initial distribution of cards in the deck before shuffling, i.e. if certain cards are neighbors initially, they stay neighbors during shuffling. If that were true, then one could argue that a pile shuffle before shuffling to "unstick" those cards is not only a good idea, but a requirement before shuffling if a deck is to be properly randomized, and perhaps even that not pile shuffling in such a case would be cheating, since the player would have information about the likely distribution of some cards, which is exactly what you are not supposed to have when presenting a deck.

[Julian23]

I very much agree with your conclusion, but not the axiom of cards sticking together. I understand that it can be an issue but that's already beyond the point where you should have changed your sleeves anyways. Also, a proper riffle shuffle does a good job unsticking cards. Not that it matters though; sticky cards are a real indicator to change sleeves. If somehow it's still an issue, gets those with a little bit of texture on the back, they hardly ever stick together. Maybe if you pour water on them and try real hard.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Good luck telling a judge you're pile-sorting to increase the overall quality of your draws as opposed to doing just regular shuffles.

Please read the rest, including the part where I said I break down the deck prior to the first match. It isnt thouroughly randomized if there are still clumps of cards that I would have some information about in regards to their sequence.

As the event progresses, randomnization will happen more naturally: perhaps to the point where I wouldnt even need to pile shuffle every game in a match. However, in order to actually make an attempt to randomize the deck in the first match, an extra bit of shuffling is required.

... moot point, I just realized though: I could always shuffle partially after breaking down the deck but before the first match ... though this could easily be abused if extended to between matches as well.

[Julian23]

The point remains: just shuffle your deck properly, that's good enough; even from a completly sorted deck like you describe. And it takes less time than pile sorting.

[Lemnear]

In what kind of direction this thread is heading?

"I have to pile because my sleeves are sticky, my dexterity is too low to shuffle in a different way, I have to stack my deck aka ensure my lands do not stick together in the pile, etc.."

[HdH_Cthulhu]

It's more like a myth that regular shuffles won't unclump a deck quickly. In fact just 7 riffle shuffles will almost perfectly randomize (https://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffiles/20002.4-6.shtml) a deck of 52 cards. Hand-over-hand aka shotgun shuffles are pretty bad though. Something like 2500 of them to make almost every configuration of the deck equally likely.


I also saw a YT video where a math prof also does the 7 riffle shuffle thing. Lots of science... but they all are idiots...(or I am and I am missing something!?)!
If your top card is Force of Will and you riffle shuffle chances are 50% that its still on top. After 7 riffles its still most likely in your opening hand.
Plus if you are a cheater you can riffle always the top half over the bottom half and have fully control of your top cards!

Riffle doesnt change the top(and bottom) of your deck well!!!

They never address this problem.

Imho best way to do it: 1 pile shuffle to count your cards. 3 riffle. 1-2 handsover. 1-2 riffle. The trick is a combination of different shuffle methods is just so much stronger. All have their pros an cons so I see no reason to not combine them AND dont forget to CUT. Its super eazy to control 1 card with every shuffle method!

Also technically the best shuffle and I dont know the English name: Mish-Mash memory style- just circle both hands and mash your cards on the table for perfect chaos!

[Hopo]

So you see problems with riffle shuffle but not with pile durdle? Luckily we have this new rule.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

The rule is just bullshit. Outside of bending your buy-in to play Magic itself in 7 riffle shuffles, no one form of shuffling will be both quick and random.

[rufus]

I also saw a YT video where a math prof also does the 7 riffle shuffle thing. Lots of science... but they all are idiots...(or I am and I am missing something!?)! ...

The "7 riffle shuffle" does make some possibly unrealistic assumptions that people who like to quote it like to skip over. As people become more consistent and smoother in the way they riffle shuffle it naturally becomes less random and the number of riffles goes up.

"Washing the cards" is a strong shuffling method, but suffers from the same sorts of issues that other shuffling methods do. In addition, it takes up a lot of space.

[thefringthing]

@Dice_Box You have a minor disability that requires you to have a judge shuffle for you. That's fine. That's always been available.

I think a lot of players don't really understand what randomness is, and this contributes to their belief that pile "shuffling" is a good use of their time and their opponents' time.

In Magic, your deck is randomized if no one has any extra information about the relative positions of any cards. For example, "mana weaving" results in an unrandomized deck because you know that certain cards (lands) are now more likely to be between other cards (non-lands). If you see that the bottom card of the deck is Brainstorm, then riffle the deck twice, you still know that that Brainstorm is likely to be near the bottom of the deck. The purpose of randomization is to destroy information like this. Pile shuffling doesn't do that.

[MaximumC]

@Dice_Box You have a minor disability that requires you to have a judge shuffle for you. That's fine. That's always been available.


Yeah, this. When originally talking to Dice-Dude, I didn't realize he had a legit medical reason for why riffle shuffling doesn't work for him. Reasonable accommodations for that make sense.

AS FOR THE REST OF YOU, I don't know how often people can say this, but it's like this:

If you are pile-shuffle with the intention of trying to make the distribution of cards in your deck different from what it would be without pile shuffling, you are cheating. Period, full stop. No, no, stop whining about how you randomize it afterwards. If that were really true, you wouldn't defend pile shuffling at all because you'd accept that it makes no difference. If you think it makes a difference in the result, then it's cheating.

And, really, all you guys need to do is claim you're pile-shuffling as a way to count your deck and make sure your sideboard is not in there. Just say that and do your silly thing. :cool:

[Hopo]

And, really, all you guys need to do is claim you're pile-shuffling as a way to count your deck and make sure your sideboard is not in there. Just say that and do your silly thing. :cool:

According to local judges you can do this once per game or face penalty for slow play. It is not reasonable to count cards all the time. If you really need to do that more than once, you have more severe issues bubbling under.

Of course you can count the cards if situation actually asks for it but also do realize that a typical homo sapiens normally can count things without separating them in several piles.

[MaximumC]

According to local judges you can do this once per game or face penalty for slow play. It is not reasonable to count cards all the time. If you really need to do that more than once, you have more severe issues bubbling under.

Of course you can count the cards if situation actually asks for it but also do realize that a typical homo sapiens normally can count things without separating them in several piles.

Yes but what if I have a disability that prevents me from counting higher than 12 as a result of a motorcycle accident

[Ace/Homebrew]

Then you should take Grapeshot out of your deck.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

You know, you're right: it doesn't make a difference in terms of randomnization if I shuffle sufficiently after piling. I'll still have to mulligan, and I'll still get flooded or screwed.

My apologies.

[Dice_Box]

Yes but what if I have a disability that prevents me from counting higher than 12 as a result of a motorcycle accident

Play a deck where you don't have to play too many spells a turn. I suggest Lands. I only have to count to 3 normally.

[JermStudDog]

I have spent the past year thinking too much about how to shuffle and properly randomize an mtg deck in a time-efficient manner. The best method I've come up with is:

Hold the deck in one hand, drop roughly the top 1/10th the deck into your other hand, allowing the cards to rest with the top card still resting on top of the pile. Repeat this 5-7 times until you have roughly half the deck in either hand.

Shotgun shuffle, making sure that the original deck has several cards resting above the top card in your newly semi-reversed pile. Repeat as many times as you feel necessary.

This causes the top cards of the deck to all come from the middle, the middle of the deck is a collection of cards 1/3rd of the way through the deck on either side, the bottom of the deck comes from the top and bottom, and roughly half of those remain in the original order while the other half are poorly shuffled.

The randomness becomes better as the number of shuffles goes up, and shotgun shuffling just works well with sleeved cards. And an important facet for me as an MTG player is that I can very often intermix the two decks on a card-by-card basis. This helps to break up clumps after sorting and achieve fairly random ordering in the deck with only a handful of shuffles.