White/Blue Stax

[knopfler]

Overview
Stax are decks built to avoid your enemies cast spells using cards that increases mana converted costs (trinisphere), counter some low mana converted costs spells(chalice of the void), tap opponent permanents (tangle wire), destroy mana base of any deck using wastelands armaggedons and crucible of worlds mechanic.

Tournments Not tested yet

Decklists
Lands 22 sources not counting Mox Diamonds
4 Ancient tombs
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Flagstones of trokair
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
4 City of Traitors
3 Tundra
2 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Plains

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucibles of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack

Sorceries
3 Armageddon

Enchantments
4 Paradox Haze

Creatures
1 Magus of the Tabernacle

Planeswalkers
2 Venser, the Sojouner
2 Nahiri the lithomancer

Sideboard
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Wurmcoil engine
2 Wrath of God
4 Defense Grid
4 Karmic Justice

Some tricks, notes, and other thoughts
Increasing upkeep payment
Paradox Haze this card improves any payment upkeep card as Tabernacle (magus and lands), Tangle Wires, Smokestacks...Think that if you have just one Paradox Haze you will be doubling the effects of this card:
A tangle wire with 4 counters will make your opponent tap 8 permanents with just 1 Paradox Haze
A Smokestack with just 1 counter will make your opponent sacrifice 2 permanents
They will have to pay 2 manas of upkeep with tabernacles or magus (just with 1 of them)
And the best thing is that Venser, the Sojouner makes possible to renew tanglewires (just one) because you exile it and return it to the battlefield with all 4 counters (if I'm not wrong) or allows you to tap city of traitors, exile it and play another city of traitors with not having to destroy any of them. Maybe Venser is circustancial card but if you are able to get 3 turns exiling your permanents then everytime you cast a spell you will exile a permanent of your opponent.

Feeding Smokestacks
Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai I like this land because it has "similar" behaviour to "flagstones" of trokair. As I have limited plains in the deck, flagstones of trokair stop to be useful when you have sacrificed them several times so if you want to keep a smokestack with 1 or 2 counters you can sacrifice Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai and you will put a 1/1 token.
You also can feed Smokestacks with the tokens placed by Nahiri the lithomancer planeswalker.

Strengths As this is a new white/blue stax version and I'm not sure about speed against other decks like combos(sneaks decks with emrakuls), death and taxes decks that discards your cards, control decks (lot of counters and hate and restarters), maverick and similar decks with tutors that can search Gaddock Teeg with Green Sun's Zenith, I'm not sure how this deck will behave.
Weaknesses I think that this deck will suffer against aggro decks as I removed 3 other magus of the tabernacles and ghostly prisons that's the reason I bring them in the sideboard. If my intuition tells me I'm going to find in a tournment more aggro decks like dredge, goblins, monoblacks and so on, I would change the main deck. I think this deck is better prepared against control but I'm not 100% sure .

Thanks for your advices and opinions.

[Lemnear]

That deck has a hard time against any DtB (Lands, Miracles, Grixis, storm, delver, etc), No pressure, ridiculously slow, a lot of variance and no real board control.

What does this deck do better than all the other Staxx decks which have proven to not be able to compete so far?

[knopfler]

Hi and thanks for your answer.

The issue with stax and dredges is the opening hands you have. If you get a tangle wire, trinisphere in your opening hand and you are able to cast on the firsts turns you will delay the game of your opponent. It's the same issue that dredges suffer if they don't get any dredge card in the opening hand.

Anyway I think this main deck is built against control decks, ghostly prisons and other tabernacle mages and wrath of God is for aggro decks.

With Paradox Haze you get a better performance of your tangle wires and smokestacks.

I'm thinking in change some cards for knight of the relicary.

Regards

[Lemnear]

Hi and thanks for your answer.

The issue with stax and dredges is the opening hands you have. If you get a tangle wire, trinisphere in your opening hand and you are able to cast on the firsts turns you will delay the game of your opponent. It's the same issue that dredges suffer if they don't get any dredge card in the opening hand.

Anyway I think this main deck is built against control decks, ghostly prisons and other tabernacle mages and wrath of God is for aggro decks.

With Paradox Haze you get a better performance of your tangle wires and smokestacks.

I'm thinking in change some cards for knight of the relicary.

Regards

You seem to constantly assume that everything you play resolves/sticks and that you have the time to topdeck everything. The main issue for these kind of decks is variance. A turn 1 Delver plus any counter simply beats that deck and most of the other Staxx decks in the format. Its a crucial point I not see adressesed in this build and renders it unplayable in the format.

[knopfler]

Hi. I realized that you were rigth and I could need some defenses to protect from quick casting creatures attacks so I have done some changes to the deck:
White/Blue Stax
Overview
Stax are decks built to avoid your enemies cast spells using cards that increases mana converted costs (trinisphere), counter some low mana converted costs spells(chalice of the void), tap opponent permanents (tangle wire), destroy mana base of any deck using wastelands armaggedons and crucible of worlds mechanic.

Tournments Not tested yet

Decklists
Lands 21 sources not counting Mox Diamonds and Tabernacles
4 Ancient tombs
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy -> 2 Horizons before and I'm thinking in change it for glacial chasm
3 Flagstones of trokair
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
4 City of Traitors
3 Tundra
2 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Plains

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucibles of Worlds
3 Ensnaring bridge -> 4 Tangle wires before
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack

Sorceries
3 Armageddon
1 Enlightened tutor (I can search most cards of the deck)

Enchantments
4 Paradox Haze

Creatures
3 Knight of the reliquary -> they are land tutor but I'm thinking in use 2-3 World queller to take max advantage of paradox hazes and save them from abrupt decays and tormod's crypt or similar cards.

Planeswalkers
2 Venser, the Sojouner -> This card allows me to attack with Knight of the reliquary/Nahiri the lithomancer tokens removing Ensnaring bridge during my turn but I could change them for 2 world quellers and take advantage of Paradox Haze
2 Nahiri the lithomancer -> This card allows me to put tokens that I can sacrifice with smokestack and also creates a brutal equipment.

Sideboard
3 Cataclysm -> Removes planeswalker from the game (I probably remove mines if I use cataclysm)
1 Ensnaring bridge -> To protect against aggro decks if it's not enough 3 and a tutor
1 Knight of the reliquary -> To make more aggro my deck (vulnerable against tormod's crypt and similar removing graveyard cards)
4 Defense Grid-> Against control decks, with one in play your opponent will pay 3 more for a counter
4 Karmic Justice-> Against massive artifact removals
2 hanna's custody->Protect artifacts from abrupt decay or quasali pridemages. I could remove 1 Ensnaring bridge and 1 Knight of the reliquary from sideboard and add 2 additional hanna's custody

Maybe with this changes I could face better against more aggro decks.

And finally here there are some decks that achieved great positions: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=81

Regards.

[mykatdied]

Personally I would go with some number of humilty. Card is a beating against a lot of decks that try the aggro route. Creatures in stax are overrated in my opinion. What you want is a good solid prison that can shut out most of what your opponent is doing. Being cute with knight and tabernacle is probably not where you want to be. I also should suggest that you don't run ensnaring bridge alongside knight. Not to mention pushing 3 colors in stax is sketchy at best. With only 1 Plains and 3 Tundra you are very easily wasteland locked if you can't get going fast enough. I would suggest more basics. If you don't land crucible you're pretty much screwed as lands deck can still out play you in land destruction and potentially get a Bojuka Bog to make crucible dead.

I really think you should drop the green altogether in favor of better synergy in UW options. Ghostly prison is better in a list with tabernacle, tangle wire and smokestack. You're opponent likely never gets into combat. You could even double up with ghostly prison and propaganda.

My current working in UW stax includes 4 humilty with jace arcitect of thought to completely shut down combat and give some card advantage with his mini fact or fiction.

[Bosque]

My current working in UW stax includes 4 humilty with jace arcitect of thought to completely shut down combat and give some card advantage with his mini fact or fiction.

Do you have UW a list you like that you can share?

[knopfler]

Personally I would go with some number of humilty. Card is a beating against a lot of decks that try the aggro route. Creatures in stax are overrated in my opinion. What you want is a good solid prison that can shut out most of what your opponent is doing. Being cute with knight and tabernacle is probably not where you want to be. I also should suggest that you don't run ensnaring bridge alongside knight. Not to mention pushing 3 colors in stax is sketchy at best. With only 1 Plains and 3 Tundra (1) you are very easily wasteland locked if you can't get going fast enough. I would suggest more basics. If you don't land crucible you're pretty much screwed as lands deck can still out play you in land destruction and potentially get a Bojuka Bog to make crucible dead.

I really think you should drop the green altogether in favor of better synergy in UW options. Ghostly prison is better in a list with tabernacle, tangle wire and smokestack. You're opponent likely never gets into combat. You could even double up with ghostly prison and propaganda(2).

My current working in UW stax includes 4 humilty with jace arcitect of thought to completely shut down combat and give some card advantage with his mini fact or fiction.

(1) You must remember Mox diamond which allows me some color light splash. Tundras are used only for Paradox Haze and Venser, the Sojouner (6 cards of 60 10% cards of deck while I have 7 sources that could give me blue) , even if I opponent destroys all my tundras I could still cast Paradox or Venser through moxes or recover tundras with crucibles. Bojuka unless he is playing 4 copies is casted through crop rotation which normally won't be played thanks to trinisphere and chalice of the void and take in mind that the blue costs are only 1 (Paradox haze 1 blue in the cmc and Venser the same, 1 blue in the cmc) so allow a light splash of one colour is not so bad.
(2) I agree but think that with Knight of the reliquary I could search any land even glacial chasm (which I'm thinking in using it because with Flagstones of trokair you can get some turns). I think is better Ensnaring bridge than ghostly prison and propaganda because good decks will have good mana base and they will hit you with one big creature. Ghostly and propaganda are better with decks that uses or get a lot of creatures in play. I always can remove Ensnaring bridge in my turn with Venser, the Sojouner or destroying with smokestack:
+2: Exile target permanent you own. Return it to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the next end step. ==> You can attack with any creature you have if you have this planeswalker and Ensnaring bridge so I'm saving 4 slots for ghostly prisons and another 4 for propagandas
(3) Think that with just a only Paradox Haze, the opponent will have to pay 2 manas per creature with tabernacle which I can search with a Knight of the reliquary after cast a armaggedon (normally with 1 mana of upkeep, casting a armaggedon is the same to destroy all opponent creatures because he won't be able to pay upkeep). Ensnaring bridge allows me to get time until planeswalker (perfect to put counters on them) or get smokestacks with several Paradox hazes that will make the opponent sacrifice more permanents than you. A smokestack with 2 counters and:
1 Paradox Haze ==> opponent will sacrifice 4 permanents
2 Paradox Haze ==> opponent will sacrifice 6 permanents
3 Paradox Haze ==> opponent will sacrifice 8 permanents
4 Paradox Haze ==> opponent will sacrifice 10 permanents
(4) Knight of the reliquary + crucible ==> Allows me to shuffle often the library, perfect with crucible of world if you want to use often so you are removing lands from the deck. It could be similar to draw a land placing it in game (or change it for a land in game)

Anyway I should test it. Thanks for your advices, I will take in mind. I don't have jaces architects but I have propagandas.

I also thinking in using world quellers that could be very interesting also with paradox hazes.

Regards.

[mykatdied]

Do you have UW a list you like that you can share?

// Deck: stax u/w (61)

// Lands
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland

// Creatures

// Spells
3 Armageddon
4 Black Vise
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Humility
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Moat
4 Mox Diamond
3 Standstill
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Cumber Stone
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Timely Reinforcements

Elspeth is something I am unsure of.

The sideboard Cumber Stone is something that might be too cute.

[mykatdied]

This is my variant with world queller if you're interested

http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2016/08/legacy-world-stax/

[knopfler]

This is my variant with world queller if you're interested

http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2016/08/legacy-world-stax/

Hi.

Thanks again, of course I'm interested.

Nice combos here in your deck:
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben + Thalia, Heretic Cathar ==> With the first one you forces your opponent to pay 1 more for non creature spells and with the second one creatures and all non basic lands
will enter the game tapped so they will have to wait 1 turn to untap and pay 1 more to cast spells, nice :). I haven't got yet this cards: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Thalia, Heretic Cathar but I will try to buy in future. Could you tell me if Thalia, Guardian of Thraben stacks with trinishpere cost? I mean, if opponent is going to cast non creature spell with cost 1, will stack thrinisphere cost with Thalia? will it cost 4?
Oblivion Ring I could bring them in sideboard, I could have issues with a gaddock unless I would have casted a chalice of void of 2 or casted a Venser, the Sojouner before the gaddock. Anyway those decks can tutor any creature cards because of Green Sun's Zenith so they could search for another creature card that could remove your oblivion.
Leyline of Sanctity I like it but I'm using them in a enchantress deck. Normally ANT decks abuse low cost spells and with trinisphere and chalices of the void you can stop their storms because they will have issues to generate storm with those cards and even with thorn of thorn of amethyst but it will protect my graveyard so probably I will add to my sideboard.
Suppression Field one of the greatest cards of ever. who is not using activated abilities? This card should be a sideboard of every deck with white.

Thanks for your advices and lists. I will try to find slots for some world quellers and thorn of amethyst (sideboard?). With paradox haze you can have fun with your opponent sacrificing more permanents than you.

Regards

[knopfler]

Hi.

I was checking the deck that won a tournment in ovino: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21382
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21382&iddeck=163887

I see that snapcaster mage is brutal because allows to cast again sorceries and instant cards from graveyard so the combo is
Snapcaster Mage ->instant/sorcery
Kolaghan's Command ->Recovers Snapcaster
Again Snapcaster Mage ->instant/sorcery

So they maximize many uses of Abrupt Decay unless graveyard exile but I have nothing in the deck or sideboard against this unless chalice of the void cost 2 but can be destroyed by abrupt decay so is useless in this case.

The only way I could defeat a deck like this one is attacking mana base that are all lands no basic and pray for a crucible:
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

So the best approach to try defeat this deck for instance, should be chalice to 1 to avoid deathrite shaman and hate against lands.

Maybe I should use Crumble to Dust

Now I see what were you telling me. I'm not sure if a smokestack with paradox haze will be too slow.

Regards.

[mykatdied]

Well my UW list forgoes the Chalice of the Void plan and goes on the tax and wreck your mana base plan to use Black Vise as a win condition. I don't believe that I would otherwise be running a Thorn effect over just Chalice and Trinisphere.

Trinisphere and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - Thalia just wants each player to pay 1 more for each non creature spell. Trinisphere is the final checker to ensure that each spell has been paid for using at least 3 mana. Brainstorm costs U. With a Thalia it costs 1U and then Trinisphere requires 2U to be paid in order to be satisfied in the end.

If you read my article I reference Convoke and Delve actually get around Trinisphere since the alternate way to pay mana is still checked as mana paid. Phyrexian mana and alternate costs do not get around Trinisphere and at least 3 mana must be paid. Dismember costs 1BB or 2B+2 life or 3+4 life, Force of Will you must pay 1 life, exile a blue card and pay 3 mana, daze you must pay 3 mana and return an island or just cast for 2U instead of 1U. etc.

[Dice_Box]

Well, this took off fast. Nice to see a bunch of people loving the other guy wanting to cry. But hey, fun is a zero sum game right?

When I think UW Stax, I think new Thalia, Back to Basics, Mox Diamond and Thorn. I just haven't got it working yet.

I am not a fan of spells that do nothing on their own. You often are top decking and should not be drawing more air than required. Haze combos well, but I think does too little on its own.

Another thing to look at is this:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-uw-helm-legacy

[knopfler]

Well my UW list forgoes the Chalice of the Void plan and goes on the tax and wreck your mana base plan to use Black Vise as a win condition. I don't believe that I would otherwise be running a Thorn effect over just Chalice and Trinisphere.

Trinisphere and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - Thalia just wants each player to pay 1 more for each non creature spell. Trinisphere is the final checker to ensure that each spell has been paid for using at least 3 mana. Brainstorm costs U. With a Thalia it costs 1U and then Trinisphere requires 2U to be paid in order to be satisfied in the end.

If you read my article I reference Convoke and Delve actually get around Trinisphere since the alternate way to pay mana is still checked as mana paid. Phyrexian mana and alternate costs do not get around Trinisphere and at least 3 mana must be paid. Dismember costs 1BB or 2B+2 life or 3+4 life, Force of Will you must pay 1 life, exile a blue card and pay 3 mana, daze you must pay 3 mana and return an island or just cast for 2U instead of 1U. etc.

Then I could try to remove chalice and using them in sideboard because with so many snapcaster and abrupt decay is less useful now, could it be the reason now I see less counterbalances in tournments or is only my impression?

Regards and thanks for your help

[mykatdied]

Then I could try to remove chalice and using them in sideboard because with so many snapcaster and abrupt decay is less useful now, could it be the reason now I see less counterbalances in tournments or is only my impression?

Regards and thanks for your help

I would keep chalice of the void. Just because I want to use Black Vise for kicks is basically the only reason. Even if Abrupt Decay exists having Chalice is still great. You either remove anything decay hits or overload decay. As a stax deck you overload decay. Trinisphere will also usually create a situation where snapcaster is just bad since your opponent will need 6 mana to cast a snapcaster and flashback a spell.

[knopfler]

I would keep chalice of the void. Just because I want to use Black Vise for kicks is basically the only reason. Even if Abrupt Decay exists having Chalice is still great. You either remove anything decay hits or overload decay. As a stax deck you overload decay. Trinisphere will also usually create a situation where snapcaster is just bad since your opponent will need 6 mana to cast a snapcaster and flashback a spell.
Thank you.

I changed them for Crumble to Dust.

I will use them again and try to use also Crumble to Dust
Do you think is a good card? I changed Plains for plateau.

Regards

[knopfler]

Well, this took off fast. Nice to see a bunch of people loving the other guy wanting to cry. But hey, fun is a zero sum game right?

When I think UW Stax, I think new Thalia, Back to Basics, Mox Diamond and Thorn. I just haven't got it working yet.

I am not a fan of spells that do nothing on their own. You often are top decking and should not be drawing more air than required. Haze combos well, but I think does too little on its own.

Another thing to look at is this:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-uw-helm-legacy

Thank you for your help. I checked the link. If I don't have many cards of the lists posted by mkadict I have the same problem with your list but I have friends that told me the same. I play always as if I had the best hands so I should change my list in a way I could take advantage of stax prisons. I was thinking in using Crumble to Dust.

Regards

[mykatdied]

Crumble to dust isn't the answer. Why exactly do you want it?

[knopfler]

Crumble to dust isn't the answer. Why exactly do you want it?
If you take a look on the Deathrite Shaman deck I think black colour is the most important colour so I could remove non basic lands that give black...with one card I destroy 4 lands, one in game, and also I can see the opponent hand.

Regards

[mykatdied]

If you take a look on the Deathrite Shaman deck I think black colour is the most important colour so I could remove non basic lands that give black...with one card I destroy 4 lands, one in game, and also I can see the opponent hand.

Regards

If your prison succeeds then deathrite shouldn't be an issue. Suppression field would help there as well, though it can be awkward with activated abilities from planeswalkers and wastelands etc

[knopfler]

If your prison succeeds then deathrite shouldn't be an issue. Suppression field would help there as well, though it can be awkward with activated abilities from planeswalkers and wastelands etc
Then, don't you think that Crumble to dust is good for a stax?

[mykatdied]

Then, don't you think that Crumble to dust is good for a stax?

Not particularly. Crumble is a spell that just doesn't do what you need it to do. Removing several non basic lands won't win you too many games. Aren't you also running Armageddon which would make it so there are no non basic lands to target? Seems like geddon is just better. Keep their mana count down and chalice and trinisphere will win the game for you anyway.

[knopfler]

Not particularly. Crumble is a spell that just doesn't do what you need it to do. Removing several non basic lands won't win you too many games. Aren't you also running Armageddon which would make it so there are no non basic lands to target? Seems like geddon is just better. Keep their mana count down and chalice and trinisphere will win the game for you anyway.

Thanks Myk.

Then I won't use them even in the sideboard.

I believed they could work fine because many decks uses 4 copies of non-basic lands so you can remove them and at the same time you can inspect what your opponent has in his hand.

Thanks again.

Regads.