Deck Painter-Counter-dreadnought

[knopfler]

Hi all again. I was wondering if phyrexian dreadnought are still playable in legacy tournments and I was thinking in build a deck with those cards and add counterbalances and painters grindstones.

I guess that with miracle decks, counterbalance is not so effective so I would like to know your opinions about this deck, if you add any other colour or any other changes you think could make work better this deck. I'm using this build at this moment:


4x goblin welder
4x intuition
4x painter's servant
3x Grindstone
1x torpor orb
4x stifle
4x phyrexian dreadnought
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x counterbalance
4x spell pierce
4x force of will

Lands
3x seat of the synod
4x mishra's factory
4x Volcanic Island
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x island

Sideboard
2x engineered explosives
1x spellskite
3x firespout
2x Pyroblast
3x red elemental blast
2x active volcano
2x Steel Hellkite



I think with cards like Green Sun's Zenith my creatures will die soon because of quasalis or similar cards like abrupt decay.

What do you think? Do you believe is still possible to play a deck like this or should I forgot about play painters, phyrexian dreadnought and counterbalances?

Maybe I should remove counterbalances and keep them for combo decks like ANT and similar.

Kind regards

[Echelon]

Long story short - do you think this is a better Counterbalance deck than Miracles? Do you win games faster? What advantages do you think you have with this build? And what weaknesses do you think your deck has? Try to be as critical as you can of your deck.

[knopfler]

Long story short - do you think this is a better Counterbalance deck than Miracles? Do you win games faster? What advantages do you think you have with this build? And what weaknesses do you think your deck has? Try to be as critical as you can of your deck.

I'm not sure if it's better than miracles. I'm not sure if counterbalance is still played and also using 2 combos normally is a bad idea.

I have no tested this deck. I think using intuitions with goblin welder is fine because you can tutor anything and recover from the graveyard. The disadvantage is that is weak against graveyard hate and sword to plowshares against phyrexian dreadnought and painter's servant but in other versions I used to play spellskite to avoid those spells.

I'm not using brainstorms as I have sensei's but I can't change cards from my hand so I will probably be blamed from control players.

I can activate draw cards from sensei and in response change it for artifact card from the graveyard getting extra draws.

I was thinking in add 1 crucible of worlds to search for it and have mana base protected against lands hate.

I used to play standstill that's the reason of mishra's factories and also I can get mana from them and change for a artifacts on the graveyard.

I can use stifles to counter some abilities that could me hurt like miracles abilities.

I have a sideboard against other control decks with many Pyroblast, active volcanos and red elemental blast.

I'm not able to see more advantages/disadvantages of this deck (not only against miracles) at the moment.

Thanks for your help.

Regards

[Fox]

It's an interesting list. Looking at the manabase first, 20 lands is a little on the high side as you'll only ever need to get to 3 mana. I understand the Factories from the standpoint that they can turn themselves on for a Welder swaps, but you might be better served by Daze/Wasteland or Ancient Tomb (or possibly City of Traitors).

Given the current list, you need to have Brainstorm...I don't think there is any example of a successful Counterbalance deck that doesn't run the BS playset. Intuition is certainly a powerful effect, but your deck is probably better served by Transmute Artifact and/or Thirst for Knowledge - both of these importantly put Welder targets in the graveyard, and in the cast of Transmute up to 2 in the yard. Now you're going into Tezzerator territory, which poses some interesting color questions.

When you look at Tezz lists you're clearly not using Mox Diamond, Signets, lock pieces (CotV, 3-ball, Bridge), nor Thopter/Sword. It is however pretty important to begin answering why you aren't using black, as Strix is a pretty great card for decks that want heavy set-up. The UB Tezz walker (or maybe even the new 3cmc Daretti) is top end card you could be interested in. Your list is more interested in the Painter/Blast combo, so stretching for black is pretty antagonistic. The last thing I'll throw in about black is that anytime someone advocates for Intuition, they kind of need to justify why they aren't running the 1 mana version instead (Entomb); this specific direction is more favorable to the Daze/Wasteland route.

Getting back to Factories out/Sol lands in, cards you can also consider are:
-Sundial of the Infinite - gets Dreadnoughts into play, cheats City of Traitors trigger
-Mox Opal - pretty easy acceleration to turn on
-there are any number of silly 1x artifact toys for Welder like Mind Slaver, Alhammarret's Archive with SDT, Pyromancer's Goggles with red blasts, and the list goes on. Any of these are silly winmores you can give a SB slot to if you wanted.

If you're deadset on Dreadnought, CB/Top, and Painter/Grindstone/Welder all in the opening deck I'd suggest a list looking more like:
Lands (19):
Volc x3
Island x2
City of Traitors x4
Blue Fetches x7
Seat of the Synod x3

Spells (30):
Brainstorm x4
Transmute x2
TFK x4
SDT x4
CB x3
Grindstone x1
Torpor Orb x1
Sundial of the Infinite x2
Stifle x4
Mox Opal x1
FoW x4

Creatures (12):
Painter x4
Dreadnought x4
Welder x4

SB:
-Surgical Extraction x2 (could also be tutor target like Tormnod's or Relic)
-Academy Ruins x1
-Pyroblast x4
-REB x2
-EE x2
-Wurmcoil x1
-any winmore x1
-Slice and Dice x2

The 4x City should maybe be a 2-2 split with Tombs, I'd like to perhaps move an EE to main for Chalice (Transmute anything into an x=0 EE), and Dreadnought may need to be moved down to a 3x as you really want 2-2.5 enablers per Dreadnought. I don't really know why you'd want to spend this much money on tri-directional shenanigans (quad-directional if you count transformative blast SB), but it's certainly good enough to be a competitive deck. You probably get more free wins pursuing a Tezz-style Chalice deck, but this deck has more lulz value week to week when you can keep changing your uncastable Welder targets.

[knopfler]

It's an interesting list. Looking at the manabase first, 20 lands is a little on the high side as you'll only ever need to get to 3 mana. I understand the Factories from the standpoint that they can turn themselves on for a Welder swaps, but you might be better served by Daze/Wasteland or Ancient Tomb (or possibly City of Traitors).

Given the current list, you need to have Brainstorm...I don't think there is any example of a successful Counterbalance deck that doesn't run the BS playset. Intuition is certainly a powerful effect, but your deck is probably better served by Transmute Artifact and/or Thirst for Knowledge - both of these importantly put Welder targets in the graveyard, and in the cast of Transmute up to 2 in the yard. Now you're going into Tezzerator territory, which poses some interesting color questions.

When you look at Tezz lists you're clearly not using Mox Diamond, Signets, lock pieces (CotV, 3-ball, Bridge), nor Thopter/Sword. It is however pretty important to begin answering why you aren't using black, as Strix is a pretty great card for decks that want heavy set-up. The UB Tezz walker (or maybe even the new 3cmc Daretti) is top end card you could be interested in. Your list is more interested in the Painter/Blast combo, so stretching for black is pretty antagonistic. The last thing I'll throw in about black is that anytime someone advocates for Intuition, they kind of need to justify why they aren't running the 1 mana version instead (Entomb); this specific direction is more favorable to the Daze/Wasteland route.

Getting back to Factories out/Sol lands in, cards you can also consider are:
-Sundial of the Infinite - gets Dreadnoughts into play, cheats City of Traitors trigger
-Mox Opal - pretty easy acceleration to turn on
-there are any number of silly 1x artifact toys for Welder like Mind Slaver, Alhammarret's Archive with SDT, Pyromancer's Goggles with red blasts, and the list goes on. Any of these are silly winmores you can give a SB slot to if you wanted.

If you're deadset on Dreadnought, CB/Top, and Painter/Grindstone/Welder all in the opening deck I'd suggest a list looking more like:
Lands (19):
Volc x3
Island x2
City of Traitors x4
Blue Fetches x7
Seat of the Synod x3

Spells (30):
Brainstorm x4
Transmute x2
TFK x4
SDT x4
CB x3
Grindstone x1
Torpor Orb x1
Sundial of the Infinite x2
Stifle x4
Mox Opal x1
FoW x4

Creatures (12):
Painter x4
Dreadnought x4
Welder x4

SB:
-Surgical Extraction x2 (could also be tutor target like Tormnod's or Relic)
-Academy Ruins x1
-Pyroblast x4
-REB x2
-EE x2
-Wurmcoil x1
-any winmore x1
-Slice and Dice x2

The 4x City should maybe be a 2-2 split with Tombs, I'd like to perhaps move an EE to main for Chalice (Transmute anything into an x=0 EE), and Dreadnought may need to be moved down to a 3x as you really want 2-2.5 enablers per Dreadnought. I don't really know why you'd want to spend this much money on tri-directional shenanigans (quad-directional if you count transformative blast SB), but it's certainly good enough to be a competitive deck. You probably get more free wins pursuing a Tezz-style Chalice deck, but this deck has more lulz value week to week when you can keep changing your uncastable Welder targets.

Thanks for your help.

Unfortunately I don't have Transmute Artifact and Mox Opal

I use Intuition because with thirst for knowledge you don't know what are you going to draw, you only control what you are going to discard while with Intuition I can search 3 copies of a card and I will get the one I need or I have the threat in the hand and my opponent doesn't know about it so doesn't matter what card he gives me but I will test with thirst for knowledge.

I'm agree with brainstorm and also I could add 1 ensnaring bridge and as I also don't have Mind Slaver, Alhammarret's Archive with SDT, Pyromancer's Goggles I could try with sundering titan maybe.

I also could add combo Thopter/Sword or in sideboard.

I'm using City of Traitors in my white stax deck but I guess I could change from one deck to another and play with proxies of city in this one.

Why do you think is better Sundial of the Infinite x2 than maybe 2trickbind? I'm not sure how it will work sundial. I guess I have to play first sundial and then after first turn play a Dreadnought. What would it happen if opponent counters Dreadnought? Can I use sundial to avoid counters or Dreadnought will also remove from the stack as counter is in response?

From your list I'm going to try this one:
Lands (19):
Volc x3
Island x2
City of Traitors x4 ==> Mishras gives me less acceleration but I always can change for another artifact and if I play city of traitors I will loose chances to play any other land and with ancient tomb I will loose life
Blue Fetches x7
Seat of the Synod x3

Spells (30):
Brainstorm x4==>I will add them
Transmute x2==>I don't have them
TFK x4==>Sure are better than intuition? If I don't have transmute tutor I will need a tutor like intuition
SDT x4==>I don't have them I could use thopter and sword
CB x3==>I will remove 1
Grindstone x1==>I will remove 2
Torpor Orb x1
Sundial of the Infinite x2==>I'm not sure of this one, should it be better trickbinds?
Stifle x4
Mox Opal x1==>I don't have it
FoW x4

Creatures (12):
Painter x4
Dreadnought x4
Welder x4

SB:I will keep all this sideboard, I think is great
-Surgical Extraction x2 (could also be tutor target like Tormnod's or Relic)
-Academy Ruins x1
-Pyroblast x4
-REB x2
-EE x2
-Wurmcoil x1
-any winmore x1
-Slice and Dice x2

PS: I could add one EE to the maindeck but I can only cast it with 2 colors max. Would it be better ratchet bomb?

Thanks for your help.

Regards.

[zyren]

This deck could really use trinket mage to tutor for dreadnought, torpor orb, or top. If you are going the route with intuition / goblin welder, you should really go all out and use daretti, scrap savant to improve consistency. You cal also use cards like faithless looting if you have dead cards in your hand that you can weld in later.

[knopfler]

Thanks for your help. I would use transmute artifact and
daretti, scrap savant if I had them but unfortunately I don't have them.

Regards

[Fox]

First things first, you can't tutor >1 cmc on Trinket Mage (no go on Torpor Orb). On the topic of Torpor Orb, you only want very specific ETB effects: bad ones (Dreadnought) and Welder exchange targets (i.e. weld out Torpor, weld in Sundering Titan). Thopter Sword is shut down by Torpor Orb; there's obviously workarounds (i.e. sac Torpor before Sword), but it goes even more all-in on graveyard usage, which carries obvious risks.

4cmc Daretti seems fairly excessive, the new one (although black) does much more in the keeping you alive for the durdle category, creating blockers, removal, and Welder fodder.

Sundial was suggested as more of a novel interaction that can help define this deck as doing something unique. The exploit is turn 1 City -> play Sundial. Turn 2 play a land -> end the turn, exiling sacrifice City trigger. This is in addition to play Dreadnought, trigger on stack, end the turn. If an opponent counters a Dreadnought, you are winning the game as that play is almost always incorrect and fatal - it borders on moronic if you have Welder in play. Activating Sundial with both on the stack simply exiles the both of them [Dreadnought and enemy counter], which has the niche advantage of playing around Surgical/Extirpate effects.

If you're not using Transmute, you'll probably want more Grindstones. The idea in my suggestion is that one face of the deck is Painter/Blast cheese; Grindstone only represents the combo kill (which isn't all that necessary, and so 2:1 Tutors to Grindstone keeps you drawing more of the other important parts of the deck).

When it comes to TFK vs Intuition, you have so many combos in this deck (and a way to guarantee drawing an artifact to discard: SDT's tap to draw) that you may as well draw more of your deck and tactically discard a Welder target. Intuition will definitely find the cards you want, but also might get you blown out by Surgical. More the issue with Intuition is that it is such an investment that you probably need to win the game on your very next turn, which this deck doesn't do....unless all the things are going right and you pull off the whole mill combo off and don't run into a Emrakul-type shuffle effect.

Ratchet Bomb is fine, Powder Keg is fine, EE is also fine. The key interaction is assuming you ran Transmute Artifact, you sac any artifact (even a Seat of the Synod) and you grab a 0 cmc EE (paying nothing in cost differential), then you pay 2 to blow it, and all the Chalice's die [their cmc on the battlefield is 0].

[knopfler]

First things first, you can't tutor >1 cmc on Trinket Mage (no go on Torpor Orb). On the topic of Torpor Orb, you only want very specific ETB effects: bad ones (Dreadnought) and Welder exchange targets (i.e. weld out Torpor, weld in Sundering Titan). Thopter Sword is shut down by Torpor Orb; there's obviously workarounds (i.e. sac Torpor before Sword), but it goes even more all-in on graveyard usage, which carries obvious risks.

4cmc Daretti seems fairly excessive, the new one (although black) does much more in the keeping you alive for the durdle category, creating blockers, removal, and Welder fodder.

Sundial was suggested as more of a novel interaction that can help define this deck as doing something unique. The exploit is turn 1 City -> play Sundial. Turn 2 play a land -> end the turn, exiling sacrifice City trigger. This is in addition to play Dreadnought, trigger on stack, end the turn. If an opponent counters a Dreadnought, you are winning the game as that play is almost always incorrect and fatal - it borders on moronic if you have Welder in play. Activating Sundial with both on the stack simply exiles the both of them [Dreadnought and enemy counter], which has the niche advantage of playing around Surgical/Extirpate effects.

If you're not using Transmute, you'll probably want more Grindstones. The idea in my suggestion is that one face of the deck is Painter/Blast cheese; Grindstone only represents the combo kill (which isn't all that necessary, and so 2:1 Tutors to Grindstone keeps you drawing more of the other important parts of the deck).

When it comes to TFK vs Intuition, you have so many combos in this deck (and a way to guarantee drawing an artifact to discard: SDT's tap to draw) that you may as well draw more of your deck and tactically discard a Welder target. Intuition will definitely find the cards you want, but also might get you blown out by Surgical. More the issue with Intuition is that it is such an investment that you probably need to win the game on your very next turn, which this deck doesn't do....unless all the things are going right and you pull off the whole mill combo off and don't run into a Emrakul-type shuffle effect.

Ratchet Bomb is fine, Powder Keg is fine, EE is also fine. The key interaction is assuming you ran Transmute Artifact, you sac any artifact (even a Seat of the Synod) and you grab a 0 cmc EE (paying nothing in cost differential), then you pay 2 to blow it, and all the Chalice's die [their cmc on the battlefield is 0].

I like Torpor Orb because you avoid abilities like snapcaster and other ones.

I didn't realize about sundial and city of traitors after tapping for mana and playing something play a land and use sundial to avoid city destruction.

I would like to use transmutes but I don't have any :(, I will buy in the future.

I could have defenses against surgicals, tormod's crypt, relic of progenitus with sensei's diving top and counterbalance but not against other graveyard removal (like could be deathrite shaman that everybody plays and it could enter the game on the first turns), I should have to protect my graveyard against these cards but I don't know how to do it. I think there's no difference between discard with TFK and Intuition with graveyard exile cards because you will discard cards to graveyard so with any of those and with many deathrite shaman I should bring something that could destroy their graveyard removal (explosives, powder keg or ratchet could also destroy my welders) ==>What would you think in using pithing needles and diverts to change targets? I will try to find a card that avoid your opponents using activated abilities. (maybe null rod?) or something against graveyard exile.

Regards and thanks again.

[Fox]

I wouldn't worry too much about DRS; it doesn't matter all that much if they kill one of your creatures and then eat it, nor do you need an instant/sorcery to sit in your yard. Even if you need an artifact creature that is currently in the yard, they can't use DRS if you have an untapped Welder waiting to respond. If it's a DRS deck, Abrupt Decay is probably more annoying and Tarmogoyf is more the card you have to not die to. By itself DRS isn't going to stop tapping SDT, holding priority, and welding it out for a non-creature artifact as one of your card advantage engines.

The more problematic cards are things like RiP from white decks. Remember though that your deck is more than happy to turn their hate blue and simply blast it in a post-board game. The most annoying thing you could lose to a card like Surgical is probably Painter's Servant as it can complicate wincons; but again yard hate from an opponent is probably just more annoying than actually threatening.

Null Rod is a poor choice for a 4x SDT deck. Pithing Needle is fine, but for 1 mana you're probably just blasting it. I wouldn't start throwing in cards like Divert without seeing how the deck performs in your local meta. This deck as built has a number of diverse ways to win a game, don't worry too much about yard hate until you're sure you aren't dying to an enemy creatures.

[knopfler]

I wouldn't worry too much about DRS; it doesn't matter all that much if they kill one of your creatures and then eat it, nor do you need an instant/sorcery to sit in your yard. Even if you need an artifact creature that is currently in the yard, they can't use DRS if you have an untapped Welder waiting to respond. If it's a DRS deck, Abrupt Decay is probably more annoying and Tarmogoyf is more the card you have to not die to. By itself DRS isn't going to stop tapping SDT, holding priority, and welding it out for a non-creature artifact as one of your card advantage engines.

The more problematic cards are things like RiP from white decks. Remember though that your deck is more than happy to turn their hate blue and simply blast it in a post-board game. The most annoying thing you could lose to a card like Surgical is probably Painter's Servant as it can complicate wincons.

Then, what should I do against graveyard hate? Should I remove intuitions, Dreadnought and stifles and focus only in painters + grindstone and using blasts?

Thanks Fox.

[Fox]

With four angles of attack (CB/SDT lock, paint and blast, paint and grind, and just smash with Dreadnoughts), you're exceeding deckbuilding theory when you focus in on an enemy sideboard response because the nature of their response depends on the specific deck they are on (also the post-board deck you present). I think the discussion morphed into a graveyard hate tangent when the point was more that Intuition is cast at the end of their turn and will often find 3 copies of the same combo piece which will need an untap step and main phase to deploy which is mechanically weak against a card like Surgical. This was done to highlight how another EoT 3cmc payoff spell (FTK) can provide a different style for the same deck - it's more mechanically difficult for an opponent to attack you drawing 3 cards while potentially dropping a Welder target into the yard than it is to combat a card that will find the other half of your combo (while the first half is presumably a valid target on the battlefield as all this is going on).


Should I remove intuitions, Dreadnought and stifles and focus only in painters + grindstone and using blasts?
Much of this question requires an pretty involved discussion to answer; but what I can say succinctly is that with so many different angles already in the deck, you can't afford to use a 3cmc payoff card if you're seriously considering replacing it with cards from sideboard - that slot, be it TFK or Intuition, has to be a constant in the submitted 60 alongside Brainstorm and the mana base.

[knopfler]

Thanks for all Fox :).

I see that TFK will give me more advantage of cards while I drop just 1 artifact into the yard.

I'm not sure which one will be better because if I need to find the combo maybe intuition will be better for that and assuring counterbalances and counters to protect yard.

Regards.

[knopfler]

Hi again.

Finally I'm thinking giving a try this list:

4x goblin welder
4x intuition
4x painter's servant
3x Grindstone
1x torpor orb
4x stifle
4x phyrexian dreadnought
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x counterbalance
3x spell pierce
4x force of will
3x Standstill

Lands
3x seat of the synod
4x mishra's factory
4x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Lumbering Falls

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Engineered explosives
2x Pyroblast
3x red elemental blast
1x active volcano
2x Slice and Dice
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Standstill
1x Sensei's Divining Top


I tried with fox list but not having mox opal and not using city of traitors/ancient tombs

When I was using Thirst for Knowledge I could check in many draws tests that as I wasn't using so many Grindstone cards I had issues to find any defeating
resources and with Intuition I can have more control of what I need to drop on graveyard and what I will get based on the cards I have on my hand, I'm not arguing that Intuition is better than Thirst for Knowledge but in many draw tests I have done when I played a Thirst for Knowledge I didn't draw anything I needed and as I didn't have Transmute Artifact then I can't search any artifact I could need and at this moment I can't buy Transmute Artifact.

Another interesting card I was thinking was Standstill. As I was using mishra's factory I decided add more aggro lands so I added 2x Lumbering Falls with a fetchable/seekable Tropical Island so I can cast Standstill even if I don't have mishra's factory/Lumbering Falls and wait until the opponent plays while I discard of artifacts I don't need.

Maybe 3x Sensei's Divining Top with no brainstorm is not enough for a blue deck but think that I will get cards advantage with Standstill.

Regards.