[Deck] Vial Goblins

[1GoblinLackey]

Alright fellas, I've gone deeper, maybe even the deepest. A frequent problem cited for Goblins is our reliance on Aether Vial, and that without it, our deck is far too slow and has trouble functioning under any duress at all. However, my testing with DRS in place of Lackey has shown me that this isn't necessarily the case. I'd often want to play my DRS first instead of my vial, which told me that they shouldn't be in the deck together necessarily. T1 DRS lets us T2 Warchief, no need to connect with our 1/1 buddy Lackey. This thought led me to this; what would Goblins look like without Aether Vial, and is it possible that it's a deckbuilding crutch that we don't actually need? I've played a little bit of D&T (just finally finished it in paper recently) and they can do so many vial tricks that we cannot. We main phase our vial activations quite often because so many of our creatures have haste, so it's frequently a mana generator, not much more.

Obviously we still need ways to discount or cheat in our expensive spells. Enter Frogtosser Banneret! I honestly forgot this card exists until I saw it again recently, and so this led me to this point. What if we can just overwhelm our opponents with ways of generating mana, so many that they can't actually kill or counter all of them? This was my deckbuilding principle in this construction. Some tuning should be done of course, which I'll happily continue to do, but here's what I got so far. I've played against D&T (1-2, but I lost because they had a t2 Absolute law into Mirran Crusader, and I punted game 3 multiple ways), Grixis Delver (2-1), and a Show and Tell/Cloudpost hybrid (2-0), where I beat Show and Tell into Ugin (wiping a huge board with Krenko), and then beat Show and Tell into Emrakul and an attack with it. Not the most testing obviously, but the deck feels very fluid in goldfishing, much less reliant on 1 card to survive.

Anyway! Without further ado, here's what I've come up with.

// 60 Maindeck
// 35 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1 Sparksmith
3 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Chieftain

// 2 Instant
2 Tarfire

// 22 Land
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Mountain
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

// 1 Sorcery
1 Warren Weirding


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Earwig Squad

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Blood Moon

// 7 Instant
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Kolaghan's Command
SB: 1 Pyroblast

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

Some bonuses: Kicking out Vial makes your Ringleader hits quite high, even with DRS I have 34 hits! Also, keep in mind what you have on the bottom of your deck because of Grenzo. Make sure to put any revealed DRS exactly on bottom so if you draw grenzo you can flip them into play immediately.
Having access to DRS makes our reanimator matchup quite a bit better (obviously), and does all the DRS things (get your tarfires out of your graveyard to shrink goyf), shrinks KotR, exiles Loam, Punishing Fire, Past in Flames targets, etc. We also get to say fuck off to BR Reanimator's Chancellor trigger since you can play cavern on Shaman (name Shaman if you're playing Kiki in the list).
It's super easy to play around daze with this deck, especially with a t1 DRS. T1 DRS lets you play a Banneret over a warchief, getting a discount next turn while still avoiding the daze. We're slightly more susceptible to hard countermagic in this configuration, since there are only 3 Caverns and obviously no Vial.

This list is crazy explosive at times, never getting stuck on red sources and just spitting out a huge number of creatures. Piledriver's really strong here, maybe worth a 3rd slot. Sparksmith once again plays well with the 5 hastelords and multiple ways to get him out very early, and he buffs up the deck's otherwise relatively little removal. I'm not all in on a lackey plan, so 4 tarfire isn't necessary. 2 gempalm, 1 weirding, 1 sparksmith gives me lots of ways to answer large creatures from a variety of angles. Lifegain from DRS can bring sparky back online when on a low life total as well.

Notable Goblin Omissions:
Mogg War Marshal: Just couldn't find the space for him. Maybe as a 1-of, but he never made sense to me as a 1-of in the first place.
Skirk Prospector: I really like him when we have so many discounts in the form of Warchief and Tosser, but without MWM, there's not a ton of ways to "go off" like you normally can.


Manabase concerns:
It feels pretty solid, I'd like to fit a pendelhaven in somehow though, perhaps over the 2nd mountain.

The sideboard I'm unsure of, except for a few cards. Being deep into 3 colors gives us access to a lot of choices. K command is INSANE, especially against D&T. Shatter an equipment plus get back a gempalm or matron is the dream. I like the idea of also having an ancient grudge or pithing needle in the board, but I'm unsure of cuts.
Pyrokinesis could potentially be awkward with so many black cards, but it's only 3 more than normal since there's no colorless spells. Perhaps Sudden Demise is better?
I'm playing Thoughtseize over Therapy because we lack MWM as free saccing fodder. Not sure if it's correct, since it can just be so much more powerful.
3rd Blood Moon is also pretty reasonable, since we can consistently t2 it. I swapped the 3rd for the Pyroblast, as I wanted more anti-combo stuff, and another answer to TNN.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this crazy idea of mine, and would especially love to see other people test it.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Alright fellas, I've gone deeper, maybe even the deepest. A frequent problem cited for Goblins is our reliance on Aether Vial, and that without it, our deck is far too slow and has trouble functioning under any duress at all. However, my testing with DRS in place of Lackey has shown me that this isn't necessarily the case. I'd often want to play my DRS first instead of my vial, which told me that they shouldn't be in the deck together necessarily. T1 DRS lets us T2 Warchief, no need to connect with our 1/1 buddy Lackey. This thought led me to this; what would Goblins look like without Aether Vial, and is it possible that it's a deckbuilding crutch that we don't actually need? I've played a little bit of D&T (just finally finished it in paper recently) and they can do so many vial tricks that we cannot. We main phase our vial activations quite often because so many of our creatures have haste, so it's frequently a mana generator, not much more.

I think the problem you identified is that Deathrite Shaman's power level is just plain higher than AEther Vials. Vial requires a lot more to go right, a good curve and creatures within it. DRS just needs the game to happen naturally.

We had someone test DRS way back when it came out to some middling, but not poor, results. That said, AEther Vial is an incredible mana generator (at instant speed). I doubt the consistency loss in running DRS (the mana base) is made up in DRS actual power level when it comes to opposing Wastelands and such.

I would hazard a guess that you don't need Basics in this build. It's not like you are dodging Blood Moon, and you simply increase the likelyhood of DRS, Grenzo, etc, not working when it needs to, while still being sent back a turn from any Wasteland. The likely hood of going Basic, Basic, Land, 3 cost is pretty small compared to the potential of being at mono red due to a wasteland, versus how Shardless, or Delver always has their base color plus off colors from their dual set up.

I'm not convinced it's better, but I am fairly sure that we are getting closer to a correct version of a DRS build by cutting the basics.

@anyone
I haven't been able to play recently due to returning to College, hows the meta shaking up right now? I miss me some Legacy.

[kombatkiwi]

(This is all obviously just my opinion, but I will speak in absolute terms because the writing will become clunky if I am constantly hedging everything I say)

The power level of aether vial is much higher than DRS. DRS adds 1 mana per turn. Aether Vial adds 1 mana, then 2 mana, then 3, all the way up to potentially 5 (in Goblins). Attacking and blocking and draining/gaining 2 does not make up for this difference, before you consider that Vial additionally makes the creatures uncounterable and have flash.

The reason why DRS is played in many more decks than Aether Vial is not because DRS is more powerful but because Vial requires your deck to be constructed in a very specific way. A high density of creatures is needed , which is not commonly seen in legacy decks. It is worth noting that in almost all decks that do include a high number of creatures it has been considered correct to play vial:

Maverick
DNT
Slivers
Goblins
Merfolk

The only high-creature count deck not playing vial is Elves, because Elves gets a benefit from actually casting its creatures rather than Vialing them in (Glimpse) and because a lot of the power of Vial is wasted in that deck when almost all of the creatures cost only one mana.

When Olaf Forkbeard states that "Vial requires a lot more to go right, a good curve and creatures within it." he is not wrong, but Goblins is already set up to have exactly these things (a good curve with a ton of creatures) so what is the problem?

"We main phase our vial activations quite often because so many of our creatures have haste, so it's frequently a mana generator, not much more." Death and Taxes doesn't have a 4-mana creature with Ancestral Recall stapled onto it. The potential for Goblins to use Vial as 'just a mana generator' is so much higher than any other deck in the history of competitive MTG (compared to all the other decks mentioned above) that this doesn't feel like a very good argument.

The criticism of Goblins being 'reliant' on Vial is reasonable, because the mana curve of this deck is so much higher than any other competitive deck in legacy that's actually trying to cast its cards (Nic Fit being the one exception I guess). You could say that without a Vial in play the deck doesn't have a way to cast its spells in a relevant timeframe (especially if Lackey connections are denied), therefore Vial is like a 'crutch' that the deck is leaning on too hard. However, if you want to eliminate this problem, then getting rid of Vial for a different mana generator is not the answer, because Vial is already the best mana generator. Vial gives you much more mana than any other card and doesn't die as easily as a creature like DRS. If you want to make Goblins less reliant on Vial you need to build the deck in such a way that it can cast spells easily without the help of acceleration, which means lowering the mana curve, which means cutting Ringleader. At that point you have removed the main strength of the deck, so to me this seems like a pointless exercise. Kicking out vial and replacing it with DRS doesn't make your Ringleader hits quite high, it makes them the same as before. (If I was like you and playing 22 lands, with 4 Vials I would still have 34 Goblins).

You might say 'well I've added DRS plus even more mana generators', but the reason why I don't like Frogtosser (at least in so many copies alongside 4 Warchief) is that when you build your deck in this way the main plan starts to become even more narrowly focused on 'Spam out a bunch of cheap-to-cast free 1/1s and 2/2s'. While that is fine if your opponent are on some kind of mono-baleful-strix plan where all your creatures are trading with the opponent's cards, it sets you off down a road where you start losing to Tarmogoyfs and Anglers.

[egoblinsw]

Hey all,

I'm currently on a BR list, and i'm on the edge about sideboard.

Right now I'm running

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyrokinesis (1 maindeck)
1 Tuktuk (1 maindeck)
1 Warren Weirding (2 Maindeck)
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 ??

I've been wanting to swap over to a chalices, and wonder what you suggest cutting for them.
I was thinking Thoughtseize, but not sure.

[egoblinsw]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmmR_3pG0Rs

Fun video vs. Mono Red Prison. Showcases the grindy strengths of goblins well, in addition to some of the janky BS we can get up to. Goblins match starts at 1 hour 33 Minutes

[1GoblinLackey]

Hey all,

I'm currently on a BR list, and i'm on the edge about sideboard.

Right now I'm running

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyrokinesis (1 maindeck)
1 Tuktuk (1 maindeck)
1 Warren Weirding (2 Maindeck)
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 ??

I've been wanting to swap over to a chalices, and wonder what you suggest cutting for them.
I was thinking Thoughtseize, but not sure.

It's hard to do a sideboard analysis without seeing your full list or what you're looking to be playing against. 3 warren weirdings seems kinda excessive to me in general though, if TNN is a huge concern in your meta, pyroblast might supplement 2 weirdings and have additional utility along the way. You could also try the more consistent ways to 100% nail a TNN, Engineered Plague and Minister of Pain. I prefer minister because you also get to completely wreck D&T and Elves along the way, and clean up pyromancer and friends.

[egoblinsw]

It's hard to do a sideboard analysis without seeing your full list or what you're looking to be playing against. 3 warren weirdings seems kinda excessive to me in general though, if TNN is a huge concern in your meta, pyroblast might supplement 2 weirdings and have additional utility along the way. You could also try the more consistent ways to 100% nail a TNN, Engineered Plague and Minister of Pain. I prefer minister because you also get to completely wreck D&T and Elves along the way, and clean up pyromancer and friends.

I really like the idea of playing minister of pain.

Mostly, I'm trying to figure out what cards actually work best as my "Combo Hate" Slots. I'd like to have a decent sideboard chance against storm, SandT and Reanimator.


Also, I'm planning to head to DC for the SCG open in October, is anyone else here going? I'm trying to figure out some metagame choices. (Sudden Demise vs. Pyrokinesis) (# of Tarfires) Chalice vs Discard

[menph]

Hi there fellas,

I'm back in the business after few months of stop :)

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-a-new-moon-rises

What do you think about the new moon rule?
Now marit lage player will have free 20/20 just killing moons effects cards.

Personally I'm a big fan of moon/magus as SB plan B. I think it's our best chance against Tabernacle - Maze lock against Lands.
It could help also in other MU since basics are not that trendy in legacy, but I'm not sure it still worth playing it with the new rule.

Thoughts?

Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

[Axce]

Hi everybody,

if anyone can explain this to me it would be great, because probably there's something that I am missing:

I see that the majority of players run Blood moon on SB instead of magus of the moon, and the reason why, if I'm not wrong, is that magus, being a creature, is easier to remove (even if whit aether vial it would be uncounterable).
So, if this is true, why everybody use Thalia instead of Thorn of Amethyst ? For the same reason as before I would espect using thorn, not to mention that it would avoid splashing White.

It seems like a discrepancy to me, so there's something i'm not considering in the 'equation'.

Any suggestion is well accepted, thank you very much :wink:.

[egoblinsw]

Hi everybody,

if anyone can explain this to me it would be great, because probably there's something that I am missing:

I see that the majority of players run Blood moon on SB instead of magus of the moon, and the reason why, if I'm not wrong, is that magus, being a creature, is easier to remove (even if whit aether vial it would be uncounterable).
So, if this is true, why everybody use Thalia instead of Thorn of Amethyst ? For the same reason as before I would espect using thorn, not to mention that it would avoid splashing White.

It seems like a discrepancy to me, so there's something i'm not considering in the 'equation'.

Any suggestion is well accepted, thank you very much :wink:.

My reasoning is usually this: Against decks that Thalia/Thorn affects are good against, the clock is very important. Thalia doesn't completely shut them out of the game, it just buys us time. Therefore, a 2/1 is great.
Against decks where Blood Moon is good, it's often just GG. Therefore, any way we can make it more difficult to kill is worth it, because it locks them completely out of the game.

[menph]

hi there guys, i'm planning to go to a big tournament this week end and i'm trying to put togheter a good list


4 waste
4 cavern
4 ports
11 mountain

4 lackey
4 matron
4 ringleader
4 warchief
2 chieftain
2 mwm
1 siege gang
1 krenko
1 murderous redcap
1 stingscourger
1 prospector (or chirurgeon)
1 tuk tuk

3 gempalm
4 vial
4 tarfire
1 pirokinesis
61

3 chalice
2 blood moon (or 1\1 split between magus)
4 faerie macabre
2 pyrokinesis
1 piledriver
1 sharpshooter
1 tuktuk
1 stingscourger

unfortunately i had very little time to play in last months and this is what i came up at the moment.

what i like:
-classic mana base, a lot of basics
-6 lords give us all the haste we need to win games out of nowhere
-2 mwm: he's too versatile and useful in many situations to play less than 2x
-2 finishers: krenko if i'm sure he will connect, otherwise i fetch sgc (i love kiki-jiki, but i'm not able to find room)
-murderous red cap is great in grindy MU since he potentially can be 4x1 (2+1 burn damage, 2 chumps)
-3 gempalm: free uncouterable removal (usual stuff) 3 is the minimum number imho
-1 pyrokinesis MD can take us out from bad situations many times
-faerie is fast, uncounterable and free, even if not powerful as other GY-hate cards (relic, tormod crypt, cage, rip, leyline..)

what i don't like or i'm not sure:
-61 MD
-no MD sharpshooter, only one in 75
-moons: they still worth their slot with the new rule? in wich MU you use them? what's your opinion on moons atm?
-chalice-tarfire nonbo: always hated it even if i have 6 non-tarfire removal spell after SB + sgc + redcap
-piledriver as SB card vs combo, what do u think?

other iteresting sb cards could be: thorn, sphere of resistance, needle, cage

thougts and suggestions are very apreciated

[Axce]

My reasoning is usually this: Against decks that Thalia/Thorn affects are good against, the clock is very important. Thalia doesn't completely shut them out of the game, it just buys us time. Therefore, a 2/1 is great.
Against decks where Blood Moon is good, it's often just GG. Therefore, any way we can make it more difficult to kill is worth it, because it locks them completely out of the game.

It seems reasonable, thank you :smile::smile:

[kombatkiwi]

what i like:
-classic mana base, a lot of basics
-6 lords give us all the haste we need to win games out of nowhere
-2 mwm: he's too versatile and useful in many situations to play less than 2x
-2 finishers: krenko if i'm sure he will connect, otherwise i fetch sgc (i love kiki-jiki, but i'm not able to find room)
-murderous red cap is great in grindy MU since he potentially can be 4x1 (2+1 burn damage, 2 chumps)
-3 gempalm: free uncouterable removal (usual stuff) 3 is the minimum number imho
-1 pyrokinesis MD can take us out from bad situations many times
-faerie is fast, uncounterable and free, even if not powerful as other GY-hate cards (relic, tormod crypt, cage, rip, leyline..)

what i don't like or i'm not sure:
-61 MD
-no MD sharpshooter, only one in 75
-moons: they still worth their slot with the new rule? in wich MU you use them? what's your opinion on moons atm?
-chalice-tarfire nonbo: always hated it even if i have 6 non-tarfire removal spell after SB + sgc + redcap
-piledriver as SB card vs combo, what do u think?

other iteresting sb cards could be: thorn, sphere of resistance, needle, cage

thougts and suggestions are very apreciated

I don't think haste lords let you 'win games out of nowhere' when you have no deck slots for attackers (Piledriver/Rabblemaster). Neither are you playing pingers (Sharpshooter/Sparksmith) so the only creature that really needs the haste is Krenko. Ringleader has haste already and when you have 6 slots on goblins that all have haste themselves and give each other haste you are inevitably going to double up on this effect which has some pretty severe diminishing returns.

I don't think Redcap is necessarily a 'bad card' but if you want a 4-mana Goblin that deals targeted damage to creatures I think it's a significantly inferior Lightning Crafter.

After testing with KikiJiki for a while I think there are arguments that it's just better than siege gang (especially if you add lightning crafter).

From your maindeck I would
-1 Redcap
+1 Lightning Crafter

-1 Warchief/SGC
+1 Kiki Jiki

-1 Warchief
+1 Sharpshooter

-1 Gempalm/Warchief/Chieftain/MWM
+0

I would play Chirurgeon over Prospector.
This is not the exact goblin list that I would play in a tournament but I think that these small suggestions are improvements.

I don't think you want to bring in Chalice in the matchups where you want Tarfire, both because it stops you from casting your own one-drops (tarfire/vial) but also because it makes your Ringleaders worse in matchups where you want to be trading resources. An exception might be Elves, but even they still have GSZ -> Rec Sage.
Piledriver sucks as a SB card vs combo imo because aggro draws are generally too slow to beat combo without disruption, and all anti-combo sideboard cards you want to draw are not Goblins so they are nonbos with Piledriver. Unfortunately you are Mono R so you are limited in the anti-combo cards you can play but maybe some red blasts could be acceptable.

[dissy]

Hey Guys iam going tot a tournament this sunday and i wanna show up with the following list.
My meta is full off Grixis Delver, Elves, DenT, en other creature based decks

Any comments are welcome.

4 mountains
4 cavern of souls
4 wastelands
2 badlands
2 rishadan port
3 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills

4 aether vial
4 goblin lackey
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
4 goblin warchief

1 Earwig Squad
1 tuktuk scrapper
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Krenko
1 Stingscourger
1 Kiki Jiki
1 goblin Churgeon
3 Mogg War Marshall

3 Gempalm incinerator
3 tarfire
1 warrenweirding

Sideboard:
2 pithing needle
1 pyrokinesis
1 Warren weirding
2 surgical extractions
1 perish/engineered plague
1 pyroblast
1 tuktuk
2 tormods crypt
1 relic of progentius
3 cabal therapys

The mainboard is not that special except for Wort, Boggart Auntie.
I still think she might be worth playing, for example in grindy games where you can keep casting tarfire/gempalm/stingscourger every turn or even sac ringleader/matron over churgeon en keep on creating card advantage.
I'am not sure if its gonna work but in the middle/late game it can sure approve some card advantage and keep us away from dying because of terrible draws.
Im intrested what your guys oppinion is on Wort, Boggart Auntie for helping us in grindy games.

Mainboard is build for beating fair decks, the sideboard is build on killing combo especially decks that use there graveyard, i would like to fit some bloodmoons or chalices in there but not sure what to cut for it.

All advice is welcome thx in advance!

[menph]

I don't think haste lords let you 'win games out of nowhere' when you have no deck slots for attackers (Piledriver/Rabblemaster). Neither are you playing pingers (Sharpshooter/Sparksmith) so the only creature that really needs the haste is Krenko. Ringleader has haste already and when you have 6 slots on goblins that all have haste themselves and give each other haste you are inevitably going to double up on this effect which has some pretty severe diminishing returns.

I don't think Redcap is necessarily a 'bad card' but if you want a 4-mana Goblin that deals targeted damage to creatures I think it's a significantly inferior Lightning Crafter.

After testing with KikiJiki for a while I think there are arguments that it's just better than siege gang (especially if you add lightning crafter).

From your maindeck I would
-1 Redcap
+1 Lightning Crafter

-1 Warchief/SGC
+1 Kiki Jiki

-1 Warchief
+1 Sharpshooter

-1 Gempalm/Warchief/Chieftain/MWM
+0

I would play Chirurgeon over Prospector.
This is not the exact goblin list that I would play in a tournament but I think that these small suggestions are improvements.

I don't think you want to bring in Chalice in the matchups where you want Tarfire, both because it stops you from casting your own one-drops (tarfire/vial) but also because it makes your Ringleaders worse in matchups where you want to be trading resources. An exception might be Elves, but even they still have GSZ -> Rec Sage.
Piledriver sucks as a SB card vs combo imo because aggro draws are generally too slow to beat combo without disruption, and all anti-combo sideboard cards you want to draw are not Goblins so they are nonbos with Piledriver. Unfortunately you are Mono R so you are limited in the anti-combo cards you can play but maybe some red blasts could be acceptable.

tnx kiwi, a lot of work to do here ;)

_haste lords gives haste to every single goblin. even if no one is powerful by itself as piledriver, being able to play them and attack immidiately is very powerful. not to mention the best part: cost reduction and +1+1 effect. warchief is the card i want to see every game, maybe i could cut 1 chieftain..
rabblemaster is heavy but in this kind of list i would play it only as sideboard card against combo decks or elves (maybe i'll do it, what do you think?)

_right, more disruption=less goblin=piledriver less powerfull, but our disruption isn't enough to cut them out of the game completely, so make pressure is still the key i guess

_personally i don't love kiki-crafter combo. even if sometimes it let us win for free, i found my self trying to fetch combo pieces too many times instead of building an effective game-plan. if one of them is killed our plan will fail miserably. chirurgeon may help this strategy more than prospector, but i prefer to try it a bit prior to a tournament

_i don't like lighniing crafter because he's too slow. many times he'll die befor to being able to tap for burn, moreover if the championed creature is killed while he's on the stack he will die instantly. i understand that championing can re-trigger ETB effect, but i was never impressed by it when i tried it out. i'm not saying kiki-crafter shells aren't interesting, but there are both pro and cons and i would like to test it properly and not to play them without confidence, also because i'm not sure it fit my playstyle

_madcap is faster!!
he enter - he shoots
he die - he soots again
he don't need to champion anithing
he chump like a boss

_SGC is my favourite finisher. i'm still deciding what to do, but i love to play 2x usually
he enter, he bring guys. stifle is not a thing at this moment and he will connect for sure. moreover he can shoot things.
kiki can be stifled if target is killed, krenko can die before tapping. karakas can be an issue for both

_sideboard is not clear to me atm.. my friends expect to face many combos, so i have to figure out what to do. maybe cutting moons in favor of artifact-based disruption
why you suggest red blast? is great vs show and tell, omni show and cunning whish, but vs other combo i don't know

_chirurgeon is great, i agree

just my 2 cents, i know there are far more experienced goblin player than me here so every single suggestion is very precious
i'll try to put a better list togheter tomorrow ;)

[kombatkiwi]

Re: Wort
The question you really need to ask yourself is if your opponent lets you untap with a 4 mana 3/3 legendary Goblin how often is it going to be better than Krenko? Krenko also gets a serious boost from any lords whereas Wort doesn't. Against opponents where 1 Disentomb per turn is good then Goblins should be favored in that matchup anyway.


moreover if the championed creature is killed while he's on the stack he will die instantly
Champion doesn't target, if your opponent wants crafter to die to the champion ability then they need to kill every single other goblin you control in response to the trigger.

I don't think of Kiki and Crafter as being important for the combo aspect, they are just 2 very powerful cards by themselves that happen to have this extra potential. If your opponent 'stifles' your Kiki Jiki by killing the target you won't even be very unhappy about it because that's 1 more removal spell that didn't target your Kiki Jiki.

The argument that Redcap is good at both pinging and chumping is very suspect for me, if your opponent has a big creature that you need to chump then the ping won't kill it so it's like an expensive MWM in this situation and if your opponent has lots of little creatures is Redcap really better than free bolt every turn? When you have so many ways to give it haste (especially in your build) the argument that Crafter will die before shooting anything is also less convincing.

Re: Pyroblast, maybe Thorn is better? I splash black so I play discard, not exactly sure what the best mono red option is.

I think Rabble is so good that it should be in the maindeck but I know that most people consider this very unorthodox.

[menph]

Champion doesn't target, if your opponent wants crafter to die to the champion ability then they need to kill every single other goblin you control in response to the trigger.
k, never figured that, tnx for the tip

I don't think of Kiki and Crafter as being important for the combo aspect, they are just 2 very powerful cards by themselves that happen to have this extra potential. If your opponent 'stifles' your Kiki Jiki by killing the target you won't even be very unhappy about it because that's 1 more removal spell that didn't target your Kiki Jiki.
after few test in the last weeks i think those 2 card are meta-depending: i found them very bad vs combo where we need race fast. in a combo-heavy meta i'd prefer run 2 piledriver instead


I think Rabble is so good that it should be in the maindeck but I know that most people consider this very unorthodox.
do you have a tested shell where rabble works well?
it's not a matter of orthodoxism. it's a strong card for sure and he apply a lot of pressure, but the "must attack" ability looks wierd to me since usually we are the little guy on the field

[kombatkiwi]

In a combo-heavy meta you shouldn't be playing Goblins with many Piledrivers, because you shouldn't even be playing Goblins at all.
If Goblins is the only deck you have available then playing a bunch of Piledrivers may maximize your chances of winning in that meta but it's not something you should be happy about.

My current maindeck list is:

4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
4 Port
5 Fetchlands
3 Badlands
3 Mountain

4 Vial

4 Lackey
1 Chirurgeon
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Sparksmith
1 Stingscourger
4 Matron
1 Gempalm
1 Sharpshooter
1 Chieftain
2 Rabblemaster
4 Ringleader
1 Krenko
1 Scrapper
1 Lightning Crafter
1 E Squad
1 Kiki Jiki

3 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding

This is 58 cards
At the moment for these last 2 cards I am playing 1 more copy of Chieftain and Rabble but you could play e.g. 1 more Gempalm or the 4th Tarfire.
I'm still not 100% sure if maindeck Earwig Squad is worth it but I am mostly happy with everything else.


do you have a tested shell where rabble works well?
it's not a matter of orthodoxism. it's a strong card for sure and he apply a lot of pressure, but the "must attack" ability looks wierd to me since usually we are the little guy on the field

You will always be the little guy on the field. There is no realistic way to have enough Chieftains that your Goblins (Warchiefs, MWM Tokens, Lackey, Matron, Ringleader etc) will be big enough to battle with Tarmogoyf or Gurmag Angler, and there will always be creatures that you can't attack into very well regardless of the size of your creatures, e.g. True Name, Baleful Strix. How do you win if all the opponent's creatures are bigger? As a creature deck with a lot of free creatures, you have to either go very wide so that you can make big alpha-strike chump-attacks and not care, or play removal so that your little guys can attack unopposed.

The problem with trying to go wide is firstly that it is very slow, especially in a deck where a lot of the cards have expensive mana-costs and are not focused around attacking (Matron, Ringleader, many of the utility guys like Scrapper, etc). Threats in current legacy are very powerful now, so if your opponent has their own aggressive start with Delver/Goyf/Angler (along with a bit of disruption) you may find that as the goblin player you are put on the defensive in an early stage of the game, and are unable to build a board that can effectively attack. The other problem is that (even in goblins where you can refill your hand relatively easily) committing multiple resources to the board makes you vulnerable to sweepers.

The second strategy is to play removal so that your small creatures can safely attack, or that you delay the opposing aggression enough that your powerful lategame can take over. Goblins has a number of acceptable options for this. Tarfire is great because DRS is the best creature in legacy at the moment and 2 damage also kills the most widely played aggressive threat (Delver). Weirding is also acceptable and having a maindeckable way to kill TNN is pretty nice. Gempalm can easily scale up to kill Angler while generating a 2-for-1. It seems like this is the direction that most goblins players have been heading in recently (a lot of people are playing x4 Tarfire plus other removal, whereas pre-DRS Tarfire was often considered only as a niche 1-of, for example).

These two strategies (go-wide or removal) are in opposition with one another, because playing a removal on an opponent's creature is spending a card on something that is not contributing to your own board position. You can't successfully try to do both things at once. One option is therefore to completely focus on the removal plan and forego having any cards focused on attacking. Just try to trade resources at every opportunity while grinding with Matron and Ringleader. In specific metagames (or matchups), this strategy is probably a good idea. The problem (that you all know) is that your combo matchup becomes atrocious the further down this road you go, and you lose the ability to race decks that aren't necessarily trying to race you, but have another way of trumping your lategame (either because they will eventually find an unanswerable card that locks you out, like Solitary Confinement, or their endgame is some massive unstoppable threat, like Entreat the Angels).

What we therefore need is a card that is good at attacking, but doesn't rely on having much of a board position (because the metagame dictates that we dedicate so many slots to removal spells). Rabblemaster perfectly suits this role. A few points about the card:

- What I suggest most people cut from their lists to play Rabble are the lords (Chieftain / Warchief). These lords do not have much synergy with a removal / resource trading gameplan. Once you have no/fewer lords in your deck you can be less worried about 'all my goblins must attack' because there are fewer copies of cards that you are upset about chump-attacking into things.

- The cards in Goblins that you REALLY don't want to attack with all have tap abilities that you can activate pre-combat so that you don't have to attack with them (Krenko, Kiki, Sharpshooter, etc).

- If your opponent chooses to use their Tarmogoyf to eat a Ringleader or Matron or Lackey that was forced to attack, instead of blocking your Rabblemaster, they are going to be eating a ton of damage from the Rabblemaster, and you are replacing the goblin that died with the free token from the Rabblemaster anyway, so your attack next turn will still be the same size (unlike Piledriver).

- If your opponent does block the Rabble instead then the Rabble is probably big enough that it will trade with whatever blocked it (like Piledriver), but you still have the free token leftover (unlike Piledriver).

- Spitting out a free token every turn is a nice combo with a lot of the other goblin cards (Chirurgeon, Krenko, Gempalm, Sharpshooter, Sparksmith, Kiki, Chieftain)

- Rabble is very synergistic with waste/port because it advances your board by itself while not requiring any mana to be spent. If you attack with Rabble and then tie up your opponents mana, then you didn't play any extra spell but neither did your opponent, and you get to make an even bigger attack the next turn with the free token. (This is significant because this deck has very few ways to abuse wasteland other than vial. It's hard to get ahead on board early unless your lackey is connecting, and without vial you want to keep all your lands in play to cast 4- and 5-drops in the lategame.)

- Similar to the above point, Rabble is very good with other disruption like Thoughtseize, whereas Piledriver and other goblins aren't. (You use a card and spend mana to disrupt your opponent, but with Rabble you still get to develop your attackers while doing this)

- If you play Lackey on turn 1 and use it to play Rabble on turn 2 (19). On turn 3 you make a token and attack for at least 6 (13). Assuming you can play at least a 2/2 and 1/1 goblin (either hardcast or from the lackey trigger) by the end of turn 3 then on your turn 4 combat you will be attacking for lethal. It's difficult to think of situations where Rabble actually goldfishes slower than Piledriver. (Ok, but they are absurd nutdraws requiring specific cards like Lackey into turn 2 warchief plus double piledriver and something else).

- Because Rabble is a high-power non-synergy-dependent card it makes the deck more resistant to mulligans and things like Hymn to Tourach

[jimmythegreek]

I feel there's a list out there that utilizes frogtosser banneret and chrome mox.

[menph]

If Goblins is the only deck you have available exactly, put togheter a legacy deck (even if a "cheap" one) took me almost 2 year and a decent amount of money, so I'll play with gobbos now while slowly puting togheter something else. so i can adapt it to the meta, but not change deck at wish. moreover is the deck I know better in the format and wich I feel more comfortable with even if not the strongest at all

your list is the most 1x intensive i've ever seen :tongue:



You will always be the little guy on the field. There is no realistic way to have enough Chieftains that your Goblins (Warchiefs, MWM Tokens, Lackey, Matron, Ringleader etc) will be big enough to battle with Tarmogoyf or Gurmag Angler, and there will always be creatures that you can't attack into very well regardless of the size of your creatures, e.g. True Name, Baleful Strix. How do you win if all the opponent's creatures are bigger? As a creature deck with a lot of free creatures, you have to either go very wide so that you can make big alpha-strike chump-attacks and not care, or play removal so that your little guys can attack unopposed.
of course i didn't meant we need to be bigger than them with lords (we aren't fish!), just that rabblemaster will often forse us to chump-attack with some buddies (mainly lords, sgc or prospector)

i see there are a lot of interesting points about rabble master. is a very strong card but require a change of perspective about the deck since he doesn't allow "controllish" game style and force us to take the proactive-aggressive role instead.
i think the best way to understand if he works is to try it, i'm looking to do it in future

[cheinp]

Hi.

I'm an old reader of this forum. I hadn't registered because my bad English but I finally decided to do it to try to give you my opinion about this deck. Thus, I can also keep practising my writing... and I'm sure you'll be able to understand what I wanna say.

Anyway, It's been many years playing Legacy, I'm not a pro one but I've been piloting this deck for years. Honestly, I reckon it's not a good time for goblins...and this is because you are the good pair against almost every deck...

Why? It's simple, because the metagame and the new cards. Every deck might update their strategies looking for the best way to adapt itself to be competitive in the meta. Goblin's cannot. I don't remember a good card for this desk since Cavern of Souls.
In juxtapostion, we need to deal with: deathrite shaman, fatal push, abrupt decay, toxic deluge... Besides, the growth of TNN's decks has caused the people includes: eng plague, golgary charm, zealous, marsh casualties, edict ...

My 75's and then my reasons.

Lands (22):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
5 Mountains

Artifacts (4):
4 Aether vial

Creatures (29):
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringsleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Krenko Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Chirurgeon
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Grenzo Dungeon Warden

Spells (5):
3 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding

Side (15):
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sudden Demise
2 Collective Brutality
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin King


I've always been a defensor to not splashing this deck, but some circunstances made me change my mind.

Deck analysis:

Lands:
First of all, there is no ports in my list. It's been a long since the last time I played them. They are a very powerful tool but I'd prefer to be fast and, nowadays, I think Ancient Tomb is better than ports in this list. There are a lot of goblins that it comes earlier with tombs (matron,ringsleaders,, shooter, krenko... combinations of two 1R 1Rx cards), you'll be able to play vial around daze as well. Post side, tomb is a good friend of Chalice, Thorn, Blood Moon, demise, magus...

The rest of the land base is quite similar to the regular. The splashing is optional, I think it is necessary to be able to clean TNN or playing discard cards but it makes you lose more life (fetchs+tombs...)

The creatures selection is st that depends on each player/meta... but there is st that I assume is non-negotiable and I don't go to discuss:

4 Goblin Lackey (the trol who always makes your opponent frown)
4 Goblin Matron (goblin tutor)
4 Goblin Warchief (double speed)
4 Goblin Ringsleader (cards advantage or clean sht on the top)

Then:

2-4 Gempalm Incinerator
1-2 Stingscourger
1-2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Krenko Mob Boss

I used to play 3 piledriver, then I realised than it always was a -2 piledriver in G2/3 against almost decks so I decided to play only one... (you always have the matron tutor...)

I love stingcourger (synergy with lackey/ good against delve famous fishes/vampire... good against delver / good against reanimator decks / good as a finisher vaporsnagging the blocker/...) You always want one in your opening hand. I play 2... (sometimes 3)

2-3 gempalms I think are necessary, only can be stifled and also have synergy with lackey.

I had to read several times Krenko ability to believe it, so must be in.

The rest:
2 Mogg War Marshal (I don't see nothing special on these but I like them)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (There are a lot of d&t and Stoneforge decks so I think I need to play one copy)
1 Goblin Chirurgeon (annoying and useful)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (d&t, elemental token, elves..., many times is going to side in game 2, but it is + because sometimes you don't know what cards should be out :D)
1 Grenzo Dungeon Warden (funny card, I think this is not a deck to win a gp so enjoy :D Honestly, it is a very circunstantial card and is a nombo with ringsleader but you can cast almost every creature in the deck, even with x=0) Besides, 50% of your deck are creatures... and you can activate without tap it. A lot of time you've got the vial on 2 and a tomb untapped...


Side:
All the cards on the sideboard are quite common except maybe Collective, sudden, magus and king.

- I wish I could play 3 Collective. I love that card, you can have a bad duress when you need, a bad removal or attention, the third ability also help us because we lose so much life. You don't need to escalate. Be patient.
- Sudden Demise is an strong massive removal against so many decks (grixis, 4c control, d&t, infect,...) I like it and a I play it.
- You can play magus with vial, you can play an unexpected third blood moon.
- Gobling king is maybe the weakest tool of my side and so many time is changed for another card basically because it is an easy target. But there are a lot of decks with red and that may become unblockable your goblins. Maybe a I tried another posibilities.

If you win the 1st, sometimes is better to step aside some lackeys because you are not going to start and then turns them in a slow options. G3 (they should come back). Remember you can play cost 1 creatures with chalice and cavern. But be careful with vial.

Some pairings advices: (%s are, of course, made up)

TES. -> You are gonna lose and you know it so relax. 95% you'll be losing the 1st. You can try to fix it with side and a good locker. Almost every card in the side are in... all of your removal will be out, slow cards too. You'll be happy to know that you are playing ancient tombs...

-4 Ringsleader
-3 Gempalm
-2 Warren
-1 Chirugeon
-1 Tuktuk

+3 Chalice of the Void
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Sudden Demise
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Collective brutality

Lands.-> It is quite possible you lose too, not without fight.
The only chance to beat your opp in the 1st, is being the fastest. If it is a long game, you need to consider to concede. Remember that your vial always on 2 to be able to play stingcourger against marit. Your wasteland are a useful tool, do not change it by an opponent bayou... Surgical is an strong card against land too.

-4 Ringsleader
-3 Gempalm
-2 Warren
-1 Chirugeon
-1 Shooter
-1 marshall

+3 Chalice of the Void
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+3 Moon pack

Death and taxes -> 50% I don't think d&t a bad pair... Basically the first to play a vial will probably the winner.

Be careful with: the obvious, mother of the runes, jitte, sword of fire and ice, flyers.
Remember that: you play similar strategy so take advantage of that. If you are able to play a surgical over stp your goblins will be free way. In G2/3 play around cataclysm, do not put all your cards onto the battlefield. Remember to save your removal for cards you cannot deal with (fly/mothers/...) do not waste them on thalias, they are cute.

-2 Ringsleader
-2 Marshall
-1 Grenzo
-1 Piledriver

+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Sudden Demise
+2 Collective Brutality

Grixis.

This is one of the most stronger legacy decks at the moment. So it will be hard to beat it. But not impossible. A bad choice and you're dead.

Remember that:
It's obvious but I've seen many mistakes with that: Don't waste your removals in cards you can deal with.
Remember the priority: delver (kill it), pyromancer (kill it, it is faster than you), deathrite (kill it only if it is useful to got a lackey effect or if you have plenty of removals), tnn (you only play 2/75 cards to kill it, don't fail it :D), gurmag (just block it or return to his/her opponent hand)

You need to play a quick vial, it is your card, do not keep a hand with 3 lands and cost 2/3 creatures because probably there won't be turn 3... (actually use this with every pair)

Siding... I don't usually play the moon pack. It's going to kill u with lightning or red cards.

+3 Chalice of the Void
+2 Sudden Demise
+2 Collective Brutality
+1 Goblin King

(well, now that is difficult)
-2 Ringsleader
-1 Grenzo
-1 Stincourger
-1 Tuktuk
-1 Chirugeon
-1 Shooter
-1 Marshall

To be continued:
UBx control
Sneak and show
4C control

Any comment or correction are very welcome :D

All the best.

[1GoblinLackey]

Hi.

I'm an old reader of this forum. I hadn't registered because my bad English but I finally decided to do it to try to give you my opinion about this deck. Thus, I can also keep practising my writing... and I'm sure you'll be able to understand what I wanna say.

Anyway, It's been many years playing Legacy, I'm not a pro one but I've been piloting this deck for years. Honestly, I reckon it's not a good time for goblins...and this is because you are the good pair against almost every deck...

Why? It's simple, because the metagame and the new cards. Every deck might update their strategies looking for the best way to adapt itself to be competitive in the meta. Goblin's cannot. I don't remember a good card for this desk since Cavern of Souls.
In juxtapostion, we need to deal with: deathrite shaman, fatal push, abrupt decay, toxic deluge... Besides, the growth of TNN's decks has caused the people includes: eng plague, golgary charm, zealous, marsh casualties, edict ...

My 75's and then my reasons.

Lands (22):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
5 Mountains

Artifacts (4):
4 Aether vial

Creatures (29):
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringsleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Krenko Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Chirurgeon
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Grenzo Dungeon Warden

Spells (5):
3 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding

Side (15):
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sudden Demise
2 Collective Brutality
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin King


I've always been a defensor to not splashing this deck, but some circunstances made me change my mind.

Deck analysis:

Lands:
First of all, there is no ports in my list. It's been a long since the last time I played them. They are a very powerful tool but I'd prefer to be fast and, nowadays, I think Ancient Tomb is better than ports in this list. There are a lot of goblins that it comes earlier with tombs (matron,ringsleaders,, shooter, krenko... combinations of two 1R 1Rx cards), you'll be able to play vial around daze as well. Post side, tomb is a good friend of Chalice, Thorn, Blood Moon, demise, magus...

The rest of the land base is quite similar to the regular. The splashing is optional, I think it is necessary to be able to clean TNN or playing discard cards but it makes you lose more life (fetchs+tombs...)

The creatures selection is st that depends on each player/meta... but there is st that I assume is non-negotiable and I don't go to discuss:

4 Goblin Lackey (the trol who always makes your opponent frown)
4 Goblin Matron (goblin tutor)
4 Goblin Warchief (double speed)
4 Goblin Ringsleader (cards advantage or clean sht on the top)

Then:

2-4 Gempalm Incinerator
1-2 Stingscourger
1-2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Krenko Mob Boss

I used to play 3 piledriver, then I realised than it always was a -2 piledriver in G2/3 against almost decks so I decided to play only one... (you always have the matron tutor...)

I love stingcourger (synergy with lackey/ good against delve famous fishes/vampire... good against delver / good against reanimator decks / good as a finisher vaporsnagging the blocker/...) You always want one in your opening hand. I play 2... (sometimes 3)

2-3 gempalms I think are necessary, only can be stifled and also have synergy with lackey.

I had to read several times Krenko ability to believe it, so must be in.

The rest:
2 Mogg War Marshal (I don't see nothing special on these but I like them)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (There are a lot of d&t and Stoneforge decks so I think I need to play one copy)
1 Goblin Chirurgeon (annoying and useful)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (d&t, elemental token, elves..., many times is going to side in game 2, but it is + because sometimes you don't know what cards should be out :D)
1 Grenzo Dungeon Warden (funny card, I think this is not a deck to win a gp so enjoy :D Honestly, it is a very circunstantial card and is a nombo with ringsleader but you can cast almost every creature in the deck, even with x=0) Besides, 50% of your deck are creatures... and you can activate without tap it. A lot of time you've got the vial on 2 and a tomb untapped...


Side:
All the cards on the sideboard are quite common except maybe Collective, sudden, magus and king.

- I wish I could play 3 Collective. I love that card, you can have a bad duress when you need, a bad removal or attention, the third ability also help us because we lose so much life. You don't need to escalate. Be patient.
- Sudden Demise is an strong massive removal against so many decks (grixis, 4c control, d&t, infect,...) I like it and a I play it.
- You can play magus with vial, you can play an unexpected third blood moon.
- Gobling king is maybe the weakest tool of my side and so many time is changed for another card basically because it is an easy target. But there are a lot of decks with red and that may become unblockable your goblins. Maybe a I tried another posibilities.

If you win the 1st, sometimes is better to step aside some lackeys because you are not going to start and then turns them in a slow options. G3 (they should come back). Remember you can play cost 1 creatures with chalice and cavern. But be careful with vial.

Some pairings advices: (%s are, of course, made up)

TES. -> You are gonna lose and you know it so relax. 95% you'll be losing the 1st. You can try to fix it with side and a good locker. Almost every card in the side are in... all of your removal will be out, slow cards too. You'll be happy to know that you are playing ancient tombs...

-4 Ringsleader
-3 Gempalm
-2 Warren
-1 Chirugeon
-1 Tuktuk

+3 Chalice of the Void
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Sudden Demise
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Collective brutality

Lands.-> It is quite possible you lose too, not without fight.
The only chance to beat your opp in the 1st, is being the fastest. If it is a long game, you need to consider to concede. Remember that your vial always on 2 to be able to play stingcourger against marit. Your wasteland are a useful tool, do not change it by an opponent bayou... Surgical is an strong card against land too.

-4 Ringsleader
-3 Gempalm
-2 Warren
-1 Chirugeon
-1 Shooter
-1 marshall

+3 Chalice of the Void
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+3 Moon pack

Death and taxes -> 50% I don't think d&t a bad pair... Basically the first to play a vial will probably the winner.

Be careful with: the obvious, mother of the runes, jitte, sword of fire and ice, flyers.
Remember that: you play similar strategy so take advantage of that. If you are able to play a surgical over stp your goblins will be free way. In G2/3 play around cataclysm, do not put all your cards onto the battlefield. Remember to save your removal for cards you cannot deal with (fly/mothers/...) do not waste them on thalias, they are cute.

-2 Ringsleader
-2 Marshall
-1 Grenzo
-1 Piledriver

+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Sudden Demise
+2 Collective Brutality

Grixis.

This is one of the most stronger legacy decks at the moment. So it will be hard to beat it. But not impossible. A bad choice and you're dead.

Remember that:
It's obvious but I've seen many mistakes with that: Don't waste your removals in cards you can deal with.
Remember the priority: delver (kill it), pyromancer (kill it, it is faster than you), deathrite (kill it only if it is useful to got a lackey effect or if you have plenty of removals), tnn (you only play 2/75 cards to kill it, don't fail it :D), gurmag (just block it or return to his/her opponent hand)

You need to play a quick vial, it is your card, do not keep a hand with 3 lands and cost 2/3 creatures because probably there won't be turn 3... (actually use this with every pair)

Siding... I don't usually play the moon pack. It's going to kill u with lightning or red cards.

+3 Chalice of the Void
+2 Sudden Demise
+2 Collective Brutality
+1 Goblin King

(well, now that is difficult)
-2 Ringsleader
-1 Grenzo
-1 Stincourger
-1 Tuktuk
-1 Chirugeon
-1 Shooter
-1 Marshall

To be continued:
UBx control
Sneak and show
4C control

Any comment or correction are very welcome :D

All the best.

Hey there, happy to see you've decided to join our conversation! I have some thoughts on your deck choices and your sideboarding approach.

Your maindeck looks pretty good to me, with the exception of stingscourger. I really don't think he's particularly good, especially since you're playing 2 maindeck edicts, and they handle many of the same problems. I always play 1 Sting, but he usually gets boarded out unless I'm playing against Reanimator/Sneak and Show. I also think the omission of Skirk Prospector in a list with 4 warchiefs doesn't make a lot of sense, as he powers out some of the more explosive turns we can do. You could use an additional red source as well. He also does double duty on getting fighting Jitte while you look for tuktuk scrapper.

Since you are splashing black, I also think 1 Earwig Squad is a must. He makes your combo matchups so much better, since against ANT he wins the game on the spot, and against many of the fair decks he can rip out all the most dangerous cards (all the sweepers like Deluge, E Plague, or the stoneforge package of Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Batterskull for example). Earwig is one of the prime draws to black in the first place.

The ancient tomb approach looks reasonable to me, though 4 might be too many? I'm concerned you don't have enough red or black sources. I too have felt that Port isn't very good right now, and so I have a manabase that looks like this:
23 land
4 waste
4 cavern of souls
4 Mountain
3 Badlands
6 red fetches
1 Karakas
1 Pendelhaven


Your sideboard has some interesting choices. 3 Chalice seems good, but 2 Thorn of Amethyst seems like a little bit of overkill. I think your sideboard lacks slots for the fair matchups, particularly against equipment. An additional Tuktuk Scrapper, Kolaghan's Command, or Abrade are all quite powerful options for artifacts. Alternatively, you could add some Pithing Needles, which would boost your matchup % against Lands, any equipment decks, and Sneak and Show. A card I also really like the idea of in an ancient tomb list is Warping Wail, which is fantastic against Show and Tell decks, Reanimator, Storm, while also hitting most of the key creatures of the format: Deathrite, Young Pyromancer, Stoneforge, etc. With ancient tombs powering it out on t1, I'd be tempted to even maindeck it. Also counters toxic deluge :D

Collective Brutality seems good, especially because you're gonna be hurting yourself a lot. I generally prefer Cabal Therapy, but if you're running 3 chalices, I can see why your prefer Brutality.

Matchups:

TES is indeed an awful matchup. Your sideboarding here is good as far as I can see here.

Lands: I think it's pretty even. We can actually go pretty long against them. Boarding out Ringleaders against a Punishing Fire deck doesn't make any sense to me, since we need to overwhelm them with sheer numbers. 1-2 creatures isn't gonna cut it. I'd also leave in 1 gempalm and 2 warren weirdings. The gempalm is because almost all Lands decks will board into Tireless Tracker, and we need ways to deal with it. The weirdings shouldn't be cut because they answer Marit Lage. Tarfire on the other hand, is almost useless.

Collective Brutality does not seem good in the matchup: We can only really hit Gamble, Loam, Crop Rotation, and Punishing Fire, and they can recur both Loam and P Fire. Duress just isn't good against them.

Getting a Chalice on 1 and 2 locks them out, I'd probably put it on 1 first to protect against a quick Crop Rotation kill, then 2 to stop Loam and P Fire. Chalice on 1 does stop our own surgical extractions unfortunately, so maybe Chalice on 2 is always better?

Death and Taxes: I've done a lot of testing against this deck, and war marshal is very important. We need gempalm to be able to kill 2 toughness creatures ASAP and war marshal is the best way to do that. We're the control deck in this matchup, so boarding out ringleader doesn't make a lot of sense here either. I can see bringing out 1 because of mana curve issues, but ancient tomb means you can get him out very quickly normally.

I agree with boarding in Sudden Demise (seems fantastic!), but Surgical seems terrible and Brutality is somewhat medium. Surgical might snipe a set of StP, but they also bring in Path to Exile as removal, and have already cast at least 1 StP. It's card disadvantage unless they have the second in their hand. Most of the time, surgical will rot in your hand. Brutality is okay in this matchup, but discarding cards is a serious cost; furthermore, fetching out a badlands against D&T is somewhat dangerous, since they will probably wasteland it immediately. Cabal Therapy is much better here since you can get the equipment from Stoneforge out of their hand, and then cast it a second time, preferably saccing a Mogg War Marshal :wink:

Grixis (delver): Ringleader, War Marshal, Chirugeon, and Sharpshooter all seem strong in the matchup. Sharpshooter is the best answer we have to a Young Pyromancer, so leaving him in is a must. Since all of their removal spells are "destroy" (fatal push) or direct damage (lightning bolt), Chirugeon seems great for protecting important creatures like Warchief. Instead, I'd side out some number of Lackeys (all of them on the draw, there's no way in hell you're getting them to hit on the draw), and Krenko, since he just dies to lightning bolt. Goblin King seems pretty sweet here :laugh: I know a lot of Goblins players like Blood Moon in this matchup, since they usually can't do anything with it in play (they play 0 basics). I'm unsure about it, but it's worth considering since you could consistently play it on t2 with Ancient Tombs. If there's a card that Grixis Delver is terrified of, it's blood moon. Overall, it's a pretty close matchup, but I actually think we're slightly favored. We've had a member of our community go 8-0 against Grixis Delver at GP Vegas awhile back on a Warren Instigator build, so I think that shows that the core of the deck is well set up to beat Delver.

Hope this feedback is interesting to you, happy to see some new posts on this forum!

[Sagratho]

Hello Goblins,

I'm thinking abouth how good is abrade in meta??Could u help me rate my Sideboard?

4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Blood Moon
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Chalice of the Void

I want remove this cards to replace it with Abrade:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

I'm running instigator list, so i think that sharpshooter is too weak in this list... without warchief and no skirk prospector... i think that i can use another card.

[kombatkiwi]

exactly, put togheter a legacy deck (even if a "cheap" one) took me almost 2 year and a decent amount of money, so I'll play with gobbos now while slowly puting togheter something else. so i can adapt it to the meta, but not change deck at wish. moreover is the deck I know better in the format and wich I feel more comfortable with even if not the strongest at all
Ok, you can play anti-combo goblins if you want, but even then Rabble is close to being as-strong or stronger than Piledriver imo.


your list is the most 1x intensive i've ever seen :tongue:
I admit this does look kind of silly but for example you can look at slots like
1x Sparksmith
1x Gempalm

Of course if you wanted you could just make this 2x Gempalm 0x Sparksmith and you probably wouldn't notice much difference. You still have 2 slots that are strong removal options. Likewise, you could play 2 Sparksmith and 0 Gempalm and maybe not notice much difference either (considering the metagame at the moment that option is probably worse, but if you are playing against Elves all the time then 2x Sparksmith would be better, for example). I think that with 4 matron in the deck the flexibility to have access to both cards outweighs the 'benefit' of having more copies of the one that is maybe slightly better in most matchups. I definitely don't advocate for playing 1 of copies of random situational goblins, but I find that needing Stingscourger and Tuktuk Scrapper comes up too often to cut those (even though they are not very good cards). Earwig Squad is also a very situational option and like I said I am not 100% sure about its inclusion, but the rest fit within a more general category, like 'Finishers', 'Removal', 'Attackers', 'Card Advantage' etc. Within each category I think it's good to have a diverse range of options as long as you don't pick ones that are too situational (for example I think Tarfire, Weirding, Sharpshooter, Sparksmith, Gempalm, and Crafter are all good enough to have in the maindeck as removal options, but like I said a few posts back, Murderous Redcap probably isn't. There is some level of critical thought, I'm not trying to play as many different Goblins as possible just for the sake of it (otherwise I would just -1 Tarfire or -1 Weirding and +1 Redcap).


of course i didn't meant we need to be bigger than them with lords (we aren't fish!), just that rabblemaster will often forse us to chump-attack with some buddies (mainly lords, sgc or prospector)
- I don't play prospector and I don't play SGC. This would still be true if I didn't play Rabble at all. I don't think you need 2 1-mana sac outlets and Chirurgeon is just better than Prospector, and I think SGC is not as good as Kiki Jiki. If you are very attached to SGC/Prospector then maybe this nonbo is worth considering.
- I agree that Rabblemaster is a nonbo with lords in some matchups which is why I said that to play Rabblemaster you should cut most of the lords to make room


i see there are a lot of interesting points about rabble master. is a very strong card but require a change of perspective about the deck since he doesn't allow "controllish" game style and force us to take the proactive-aggressive role instead.
i think the best way to understand if he works is to try it, i'm looking to do it in future
Like I said before, you can play this 'all control' game if you want to, but if you are playing Piledriver or multiple Chieftains (and Warchiefs, to a lesser extent) then you are already playing cards in your deck whose main role is just to attack. To test, just cut these cards for Rabblemaster and see how it plays.
It doesn't really force you to change the playstyle much. If the board state is such that playing Rabblemaster would force you into a lot of awkward combat steps then you always have the option to just not cast it (I find this rarely ever happens).

On an unrelated note, I basically agree with everything 1GoblinLackey said 2 posts above this.
Collective Brutality just doesn't feel like a very good sideboard card. If you are using it for the discard then it's worse than Duress/Thoughtseize and if you are using it for the -2/-2 then it's probably worse than whatever Goblin you are boarding out for it. If you anticipate playing against a lot of Burn then I think it could be okay.

In general I feel that people over-sideboard in matchups against fair decks that can be beaten by the main plan of matron/ringleader (thereby making that plan worse by boarding in non-goblins). The main exception to this is DNT where you need extra artifact hate because the plan of 'Tarfire your guy, make a 2/2' can't beat SoFI/Jitte.

[cheinp]

Hey there, happy to see you've decided to join our conversation! I have some thoughts on your deck choices and your sideboarding approach.

Your maindeck looks pretty good to me, with the exception of stingscourger. I really don't think he's particularly good, especially since you're playing 2 maindeck edicts, and they handle many of the same problems. I always play 1 Sting, but he usually gets boarded out unless I'm playing against Reanimator/Sneak and Show. I also think the omission of Skirk Prospector in a list with 4 warchiefs doesn't make a lot of sense, as he powers out some of the more explosive turns we can do. You could use an additional red source as well. He also does double duty on getting fighting Jitte while you look for tuktuk scrapper.

Since you are splashing black, I also think 1 Earwig Squad is a must. He makes your combo matchups so much better, since against ANT he wins the game on the spot, and against many of the fair decks he can rip out all the most dangerous cards (all the sweepers like Deluge, E Plague, or the stoneforge package of Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Batterskull for example). Earwig is one of the prime draws to black in the first place.

The ancient tomb approach looks reasonable to me, though 4 might be too many? I'm concerned you don't have enough red or black sources. I too have felt that Port isn't very good right now, and so I have a manabase that looks like this:
23 land
4 waste
4 cavern of souls
4 Mountain
3 Badlands
6 red fetches
1 Karakas
1 Pendelhaven


Your sideboard has some interesting choices. 3 Chalice seems good, but 2 Thorn of Amethyst seems like a little bit of overkill. I think your sideboard lacks slots for the fair matchups, particularly against equipment. An additional Tuktuk Scrapper, Kolaghan's Command, or Abrade are all quite powerful options for artifacts. Alternatively, you could add some Pithing Needles, which would boost your matchup % against Lands, any equipment decks, and Sneak and Show. A card I also really like the idea of in an ancient tomb list is Warping Wail, which is fantastic against Show and Tell decks, Reanimator, Storm, while also hitting most of the key creatures of the format: Deathrite, Young Pyromancer, Stoneforge, etc. With ancient tombs powering it out on t1, I'd be tempted to even maindeck it. Also counters toxic deluge :D

Collective Brutality seems good, especially because you're gonna be hurting yourself a lot. I generally prefer Cabal Therapy, but if you're running 3 chalices, I can see why your prefer Brutality.

Matchups:

TES is indeed an awful matchup. Your sideboarding here is good as far as I can see here.

Lands: I think it's pretty even. We can actually go pretty long against them. Boarding out Ringleaders against a Punishing Fire deck doesn't make any sense to me, since we need to overwhelm them with sheer numbers. 1-2 creatures isn't gonna cut it. I'd also leave in 1 gempalm and 2 warren weirdings. The gempalm is because almost all Lands decks will board into Tireless Tracker, and we need ways to deal with it. The weirdings shouldn't be cut because they answer Marit Lage. Tarfire on the other hand, is almost useless.

Collective Brutality does not seem good in the matchup: We can only really hit Gamble, Loam, Crop Rotation, and Punishing Fire, and they can recur both Loam and P Fire. Duress just isn't good against them.

Getting a Chalice on 1 and 2 locks them out, I'd probably put it on 1 first to protect against a quick Crop Rotation kill, then 2 to stop Loam and P Fire. Chalice on 1 does stop our own surgical extractions unfortunately, so maybe Chalice on 2 is always better?

Death and Taxes: I've done a lot of testing against this deck, and war marshal is very important. We need gempalm to be able to kill 2 toughness creatures ASAP and war marshal is the best way to do that. We're the control deck in this matchup, so boarding out ringleader doesn't make a lot of sense here either. I can see bringing out 1 because of mana curve issues, but ancient tomb means you can get him out very quickly normally.

I agree with boarding in Sudden Demise (seems fantastic!), but Surgical seems terrible and Brutality is somewhat medium. Surgical might snipe a set of StP, but they also bring in Path to Exile as removal, and have already cast at least 1 StP. It's card disadvantage unless they have the second in their hand. Most of the time, surgical will rot in your hand. Brutality is okay in this matchup, but discarding cards is a serious cost; furthermore, fetching out a badlands against D&T is somewhat dangerous, since they will probably wasteland it immediately. Cabal Therapy is much better here since you can get the equipment from Stoneforge out of their hand, and then cast it a second time, preferably saccing a Mogg War Marshal :wink:

Grixis (delver): Ringleader, War Marshal, Chirugeon, and Sharpshooter all seem strong in the matchup. Sharpshooter is the best answer we have to a Young Pyromancer, so leaving him in is a must. Since all of their removal spells are "destroy" (fatal push) or direct damage (lightning bolt), Chirugeon seems great for protecting important creatures like Warchief. Instead, I'd side out some number of Lackeys (all of them on the draw, there's no way in hell you're getting them to hit on the draw), and Krenko, since he just dies to lightning bolt. Goblin King seems pretty sweet here :laugh: I know a lot of Goblins players like Blood Moon in this matchup, since they usually can't do anything with it in play (they play 0 basics). I'm unsure about it, but it's worth considering since you could consistently play it on t2 with Ancient Tombs. If there's a card that Grixis Delver is terrified of, it's blood moon. Overall, it's a pretty close matchup, but I actually think we're slightly favored. We've had a member of our community go 8-0 against Grixis Delver at GP Vegas awhile back on a Warren Instigator build, so I think that shows that the core of the deck is well set up to beat Delver.

Hope this feedback is interesting to you, happy to see some new posts on this forum!

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I really appreciate your comments. As I said, I've been playing a long time but it doesn't matter, after I read you, I've realised a lot of think to improve and this is cool. Thanks.

First of all, I've seen you play 23 with Karakas and Pendel, there are nice cards, but I'm not sure to be able to include them. I'd prefer the tombs. Karakas is a perfect warden for krenko and it is also good against some decks but 80% of the time is a nonbasic plain... Are u playing Thalias in your 75s? Pendel, ufff, more than a half of my goblins are not 1/1 and 1/1s like matrons... I could let them die after trigger :D

I agree maybe 22 are not enough and sometimes I miss red sources so I really have to consider to check it out.

I'm going to test your changes (some of them :D):

- Earwig Squad. Is the typical card that you know you have to play but I never resolved in a satisfying way... Besides, with tombs it comes earlier... I going to test it again.
- Skirk, I love skirk, I really do it, but I have no spot, I'm going to think about it.

so maybe there won't be 23 lands but I can test with one copy of skirk:

Main:
+1 Earwig
+1 Skirk
-1 Sting (I buy it)
- 1 Grenzo (life is hard) / -1 tarfire (I need to think that)

Side:

Maybe, I haven't taken reasonable decisions, my meta was full of tes and maybe I've got too many cards against that, so this -2 Thorns could be the correct choice. And, I really don't trust in my gobling king so its gonna be out to. I'm thinking about the wails, even in the main deck... maybe I test it... so next weekend I gonna test with:

-2 Thorns
-1 King
+1 Kolaghan / +1 Abrade (I'm going to think which one)
+2 Needles (I don't like to play just one in a deck without bs/ponder, I think is too random)

Talking about the match up:

Lands: I've completely forgotten the trackers so you're rigth with the palmagema, at least i need to keep 1. I still thinking about -2 warren, most of the lands player use to activate marit lage at the end of my turn turning my warren in a useless card. It's true I can force it with a wasteland but, I don't know, they never help me to deal with it... Collective also kills trackers :D

Chalices... well, x=1 or 2, both are useful against lands, but they always have decays or krosan to break it, so, I'm afraid, it's just a temporal solution...

D&T: Collective is weaker than therapy here. That's right, but it also useful as a removal. I like it because it's a polyvalent card, but I'm aware that in some parings there are some stronger cards. I don't like either side my ringsleaders, I know they are my WC so many times but when the number of creatures in my deck is being cut... I have no options... Abrade is nice against d&t :D

Grixis. I definitely wasn't thinking very well what I wrote, I going to check your link trying to clarify my thoughts :D

I really appreciate your feedback!!!
Thanks.

[egoblinsw]

Hi gobs,

Chiming in on the Rabblemaster/Piledriver discussion:
I'm currently playing 1 of each. I like Piledriver's OTK potential, and it being 1 mana cheaper matters in combo races. On the other hand, I have been loving rabble in the grindy matchups. Jund and Sultai often end up with both of us topdecking, and Rabble is AMAZING in topdeck wars.

It's taken me a long time, but I've also come around to more tarfires. I went from 1 TF 4 Gempalm to 3 TF 2 Gempalm, and I like it. It's much easier to force through lackey, and Matron->Tarfire is much easier than Matron->Gempalm.

[Quackers]

Got top 4 at a local even, around 40 players I believe with the ol' gobbos. I'm pretty bad at remember how matches went but I'll write what I remember.

First the list.

4 waste
4 cavern
4 ports
10 mountain

4 lackey
4 matron
4 ringleader
4 warchief
2 chieftain
2 mwm
1 siege gang
1 krenko
1 lightning crafter
1 stingscourger
1 chirurgeon
1 tuk tuk
1 Kiki-Jiki

2 gempalm
4 vial
4 tarfire


3 chalice
2 blood moon
2 pyrokinesis
2 piledriver
1 sharpshooter
1 tuktuk
1 stingscourger
3 Grafdigger's Cage

R1: Elves
Played against a buddy of mine, he was on a spicy 61 card list with crop rotation and in one of the games he crop rotated for a pendelhaven and saved his elf from my sharpshooter. Then he attacked and I blocked to kill off a goblin and then wiped his board. I ended up losing the match, but it was a buddy of mine who knew I needed the points for our master series event and gave me the win. He proceeded to go undefeated in the rest of the swiss.

Win (2-1)

R2: Infect
Got deck checked and I wrote down my list wrong so I got a G1 loss. Luckily I got him twice in a row. Sharpshooter again doing work keeping his board down. I kept him off of colored mana in the first game we played as well which made it pretty easy to take control of the game.

Win (2-1)

R3: Grixis Control
Another buddy of mine. Game 1 I kept him stuck on just a badlands and a deathrite with no fetches in the yard, loving the fetchless build. The next 2 games he wins by landing true name and draining me with shamans. He goes on to make top 8.

Lose (1-2)

R4: Mono - R stompy
G1 he ramps out a magus of the moon, I play a mountain and a vial. Next turn vial in lackey and tarfire his magus and he blows a firey confluence to kill the lackey and my vial. He runs out of cards, I hit ringleaders and win. G2 was similar where I could kill any threat he played while just playing a bunch of lords.

Win (2-0)
R5: Lands
I get stomped here and a 20/20 flies into my face G1 and G2 pretty quickly. I learned that its better for me to just balls to the wall agro this one out.

Lose (0-2)
R6: DnT
G1 he gets fancy putting in flickerwisp bouncing his recruiter to get more flickerwisp and has a serra avenger out. I have a warchief and ringleader out and drop sharpshooter, ping a flickerwisp, he tries to flickerwisp it and I gempalm his serra to untap and wipe his board up. G2 I got out both sharpshooters and he couldn't compete.

Win (2-0)

Get into top 8 at 8th place.

Revenge match vs Grixis control.
G1 was great trading of resources and my pressure was too much ending the game with a sharpshooter ping to the face. We were both at 1 from him hitting me with true name and draining with shaman. Again shaman was unable to tap for mana consistently.
G2 Was a stomp by True Name again and getting drained out by 3 deathrite since he hit more fetch this time.
G3 I killed everything he put out and got some really nice tempo plays since I noticed he didn't have removal when he let my first warchief live. I krenko him into oblivion.

Top 4
Lands rematch
G1 I am off to a great start and have him on the ropes, he plays tabernacle, and I remind myself to remember the triggers and that I can pay for it and keep deploying lords and go wide around his mazes. I draw the next turn forgetting all the tabernacle triggers and my board is wiped. Doh. I eventually lose that game.
G2 I swarm him with haste lords and MWMs and buff them all with chieftain to get him down to lethal too quickly for him to handle.
G3 Was a very long game where I was able to keep very good pressure all game but eventually he started a glacial chasm lock when I had lethal up. I was sitting on a chalice and 2 mana on board and a cavern in hand, while he had wasteland over on his side of the field and I needed to get that chalice on 2 to stop the glacial lock. I end up waiting too long to get the 4th land and put it down just a turn too late and he gets me with the 20/20.

We ended up all splitting at Top 8, and I got enough points to qualify me for the masters series in my area, so I was happy with my result.
Sharpshooter did work all day, fetchless was great vs the DRS decks. Overall very happy with this current list. Chirurgeon didn't do anything special. Probably going to switch back to skirk. 22 lands felt light, but it worked out. I feel like this list is pretty close to optimal at this point. Championed a few ringleaders and matrons with crafter to deter some board wipes which worked out nicely.

Sorry my memory sucks and my match write ups weren't very descriptive.

[1GoblinLackey]

Hello Goblins,

I'm thinking abouth how good is abrade in meta??Could u help me rate my Sideboard?

4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Blood Moon
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Chalice of the Void

I want remove this cards to replace it with Abrade:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

I'm running instigator list, so i think that sharpshooter is too weak in this list... without warchief and no skirk prospector... i think that i can use another card.

Abrade is solid, it never is really astounding, but is so very versatile!

Your board is very heavy on combo hate, which seems fine to me. Abrade would definitely help with the fair matchups. I kinda feel like 5 Thorn/Chalice effects might be too many, so a second pyrokinesis could be in there. You list will be very weak to elves without a Sharpshooter.

@Everyone discussing Piledriver vs Rabblemaster. I personally think Rabblemaster seems absolutely awful in most situations. Goblins already has way too many 3 drops, making my primary beatdown creature cost 3 just doesn't make sense to me. The attack with everything downside also seems terrible, any significantly sized blocker becomes an abyss. Thalia, Leovold, Baleful, Angler, TNN etc all get to eat your lords in combat. Pro Blue on piledriver is more relevant now than any time I can remember, now that people seem to be relying on Baleful Strix as their primary defensive creature.

@Quackers, nice run and appreciate the report! Happy to see some more results posted here.
How did you like having the piledrivers in the sideboard only? Were they worth the slots/when did you bring them in?

[cheinp]

Abrade is solid, it never is really astounding, but is so very versatile!

Your board is very heavy on combo hate, which seems fine to me. Abrade would definitely help with the fair matchups. I kinda feel like 5 Thorn/Chalice effects might be too many, so a second pyrokinesis could be in there. You list will be very weak to elves without a Sharpshooter.

@Everyone discussing Piledriver vs Rabblemaster. I personally think Rabblemaster seems absolutely awful in most situations. Goblins already has way too many 3 drops, making my primary beatdown creature cost 3 just doesn't make sense to me. The attack with everything downside also seems terrible, any significantly sized blocker becomes an abyss. Thalia, Leovold, Baleful, Angler, TNN etc all get to eat your lords in combat. Pro Blue on piledriver is more relevant now than any time I can remember, now that people seem to be relying on Baleful Strix as their primary defensive creature.

@Quackers, nice run and appreciate the report! Happy to see some more results posted here.
How did you like having the piledrivers in the sideboard only? Were they worth the slots/when did you bring them in?

Completely agree with the rabblemaster/piledriver issue.

[ToadFlinger]

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I really appreciate your comments. As I said, I've been playing a long time but it doesn't matter, after I read you, I've realised a lot of think to improve and this is cool. Thanks.

First of all, I've seen you play 23 with Karakas and Pendel, there are nice cards, but I'm not sure to be able to include them. I'd prefer the tombs. Karakas is a perfect warden for krenko and it is also good against some decks but 80% of the time is a nonbasic plain... Are u playing Thalias in your 75s? Pendel, ufff, more than a half of my goblins are not 1/1 and 1/1s like matrons... I could let them die after trigger :D

I agree maybe 22 are not enough and sometimes I miss red sources so I really have to consider to check it out.

I'm going to test your changes (some of them :D):

- Earwig Squad. Is the typical card that you know you have to play but I never resolved in a satisfying way... Besides, with tombs it comes earlier... I going to test it again.
- Skirk, I love skirk, I really do it, but I have no spot, I'm going to think about it.

so maybe there won't be 23 lands but I can test with one copy of skirk:

Main:
+1 Earwig
+1 Skirk
-1 Sting (I buy it)
- 1 Grenzo (life is hard) / -1 tarfire (I need to think that)

Side:

Maybe, I haven't taken reasonable decisions, my meta was full of tes and maybe I've got too many cards against that, so this -2 Thorns could be the correct choice. And, I really don't trust in my gobling king so its gonna be out to. I'm thinking about the wails, even in the main deck... maybe I test it... so next weekend I gonna test with:

-2 Thorns
-1 King
+1 Kolaghan / +1 Abrade (I'm going to think which one)
+2 Needles (I don't like to play just one in a deck without bs/ponder, I think is too random)

Talking about the match up:

Lands: I've completely forgotten the trackers so you're rigth with the palmagema, at least i need to keep 1. I still thinking about -2 warren, most of the lands player use to activate marit lage at the end of my turn turning my warren in a useless card. It's true I can force it with a wasteland but, I don't know, they never help me to deal with it... Collective also kills trackers :D

Chalices... well, x=1 or 2, both are useful against lands, but they always have decays or krosan to break it, so, I'm afraid, it's just a temporal solution...

D&T: Collective is weaker than therapy here. That's right, but it also useful as a removal. I like it because it's a polyvalent card, but I'm aware that in some parings there are some stronger cards. I don't like either side my ringsleaders, I know they are my WC so many times but when the number of creatures in my deck is being cut... I have no options... Abrade is nice against d&t :D

Grixis. I definitely wasn't thinking very well what I wrote, I going to check your link trying to clarify my thoughts :D

I really appreciate your feedback!!!
Thanks.

Against Lands, Warren Weirding can kill a Marit Lage if you use a Wasteland, Port, or Blood Moon during your turn, or if they have to use it to block lethal damage. It's not relevant every game, but it should help a little bit. I'm not good at sideboarding though, so I don't know if that's good enough to keep it in.

[Sagratho]

Abrade is solid, it never is really astounding, but is so very versatile!

Your board is very heavy on combo hate, which seems fine to me. Abrade would definitely help with the fair matchups. I kinda feel like 5 Thorn/Chalice effects might be too many, so a second pyrokinesis could be in there. You list will be very weak to elves without a Sharpshooter.


I hav 1 pyrokinesis on Mainboard, so i think that i don't need more than one on the sideboard... Becouse i'm running 2 chrome mox too. I will try, 2 abrade on Tuktuk and 3th surgical extraction spot.

[1GoblinLackey]

I hav 1 pyrokinesis on Mainboard, so i think that i don't need more than one on the sideboard... Becouse i'm running 2 chrome mox too. I will try, 2 abrade on Tuktuk and 3th surgical extraction spot.

2 Pyro across the 75 is what I run as well, didn't know you had one maindeck. Those changes sound good!

[egoblinsw]

Hey Gobs, headed to SCG DC in 2 weeks, and I'm trying to nail down my R(b) list. Here's what I have been testing:

4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Warchief
1 Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tuk-Tuk
1 Krenko
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Piledriver
1 Settler
1 Rabblemaster
1 Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire
2 Warren Wierding
2 Pyrokinesis

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Badlands
3 Mountain
7 Fetchland

SIDE
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 TukTuk Scrapper
1 Sparksmith
1 ?? (sudden demise, engineered plague, ??)


Any thoughts?

[kombatkiwi]

Quote: me

- What I suggest most people cut from their lists to play Rabble are the lords (Chieftain / Warchief). These lords do not have much synergy with a removal / resource trading gameplan. Once you have no/fewer lords in your deck you can be less worried about 'all my goblins must attack' because there are fewer copies of cards that you are upset about chump-attacking into things.

Quote: you

@Everyone discussing Piledriver vs Rabblemaster. I personally think Rabblemaster seems absolutely awful in most situations. Goblins already has way too many 3 drops, making my primary beatdown creature cost 3 just doesn't make sense to me. The attack with everything downside also seems terrible, any significantly sized blocker becomes an abyss. Thalia, Leovold, Baleful, Angler, TNN etc all get to eat your lords in combat. Pro Blue on piledriver is more relevant now than any time I can remember, now that people seem to be relying on Baleful Strix as their primary defensive creature.

Do you really think something that gives you a free 1/1 every turn matches up poorly against Strix? I think you might be failing to see the wood for the trees here

[menph]

About playing many finisher I found myself very unhappy with krenko +sgc +Kiki +crafter. I saw few of us making good results but I felt uncomfortable with it.

Too many 4+ drop in the deck make us very vulnerable to mana denial and vial shattering. If lackey cannot not connect i often die with my hand full of threats and a semi-empty board.
And less warchief we play more easy we screw on mana.

About rabble I'm not convinced too, anyway looks interesting to test him.
I'll probably do it in a shell with legion loyalists and no less than 2x chieftain. First strike could be useful to save our army from chump-attack

Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

[1GoblinLackey]

About playing many finisher I found myself very unhappy with krenko +sgc +Kiki +crafter. I saw few of us making good results but I felt uncomfortable with it.

Too many 4+ drop in the deck make us very vulnerable to mana denial and vial shattering. If lackey cannot not connect i often die with my hand full of threats and a semi-empty board.
And less warchief we play more easy we screw on mana.

About rabble I'm not convinced too, anyway looks interesting to test him.
I'll probably do it in a shell with legion loyalists and no less than 2x chieftain. First strike could be useful to save our army from chump-attack

Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

I agree that there is a problem of relying too much on finishers. None of our finishers are particularly robust, and die to basically everything (with the exception of Siege gang and Kiki dodging fatal push). My thought process in deckbuilding has had me focus on sticking as many threats into my deck that demand removal spells, not blockers. Too often we spend our turns doing things that our opponents don't need to respect. I've been incorporating 2 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser, and a maindeck Sparksmith as a way to get around this. They fill out the 2 drop slot, and demand answers or else can generate a ton of value (grenzo in particular snowballs if they can't find an answer and he starts stealing creatures).


Quote: me


Quote: you


Do you really think something that gives you a free 1/1 every turn matches up poorly against Strix? I think you might be failing to see the wood for the trees here

Sorry Kombatkiwi, should have read your previous post more closely. I see your point. But then the question becomes: is rabblemaster better than warchief and chieftain? My instincts say no (though I'm not super impressed by the lords lately, the format is a little too disruptive for them a lot of the time; however, they do each still play a key role). If your testing says otherwise, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.


Hey Gobs, headed to SCG DC in 2 weeks, and I'm trying to nail down my R(b) list. Here's what I have been testing:

4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Warchief
1 Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tuk-Tuk
1 Krenko
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Piledriver
1 Settler
1 Rabblemaster
1 Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire
2 Warren Wierding
2 Pyrokinesis

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Badlands
3 Mountain
7 Fetchland

SIDE
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 TukTuk Scrapper
1 Sparksmith
1 ?? (sudden demise, engineered plague, ??)


Any thoughts?

Splashing black without maindecking an earwig squad or 2 doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, squad increases your winrate against Storm and Elves by a pretty huge margin, and has high upside against Stoneforge decks as well. Possible cuts I see are the Siege Gang, the Rabble, and the Settler (I've never found settler to be good in general). I'd also really like to hear your reasoning for no MWM or Skirk Prospector/Chirugeon. Right now, you have a huge gap in the 2 drop slot as far as proactive plays to make, and I think that's just not safe. T2 is often where most decks are dropping their first threats, and so having gempalm online by t3-t4 is essential imo. I'm also a huge fan of Grenzo, Havoc Raiser right now, particularly against the goodstuff decks like Czech Pile (also strong against D&T as long as they don't karakas him forever; gaining access to a mother of runes is literally game winning in a lot of situations).

Your Manabase:

I'm not convinced by 4 ports anymore, our color requirements have gotten stricter and stricter as we need R and RR pretty quick (as well as B in this list). I'd probably drop the 4th port for the 4th mountain. I'm interested in how your 3 caverns idea works. It seems a bit risky against the tempo decks, but I do see the upside for accessing your sideboard cards.


On the subject of sideboards:
MWM also makes your sideboard therapies way better. 6 discard spells is a lot, maybe too many? I generally stick to 3 therapies, but I can see that thoughtseize makes therapy better and is just nice to have as general hate. With the 3 Surgicals, 2 weirdings, and a cage, you're really set up to beat on Reanimator.

I wouldn't leave home without 2 Blood Moons, they'll help a lot against both Delver and Lands.

I really like the REB and the sideboarded Sparksmith, he's been fantastic for me lately.

Pithing needle seems like it'd balance things out nicely, since you're a little weak to equipment at the moment, and D&T is always over-represented in paper events. Abrade would also be a good versatile option to have access to. Destroys an opposing vial on curve, which can reallllly mess D&T up.

The crucial question is: What are the decks to beat in paper right now? I personally think we should build with Czech Pile, Grixis Delver, Elves, D&T, and Storm as the top 5, with BUG Delver, Lands, and Omnisneak as the next best decks (maybe miracles too). There's a lot of graveyard stuff happening right now (snapcaster, DRS, Delve Creatures, Loam strats, Reanimation, etc), so perhaps we should be playing Relic again since it's so versatile in a bunch of matchups.

In your mystery slot, I think the card you're looking for is Minister of Pain :) Kills TNN, and can be vialed in on 3. Also nukes a D&T, Elves, or Pyromancer board.

I haven't been super locked into the metagame lately though, outside of data that's published online, so others may feel quite differently.

[kombatkiwi]

Sorry Kombatkiwi, should have read your previous post more closely. I see your point. But then the question becomes: is rabblemaster better than warchief and chieftain? My instincts say no (though I'm not super impressed by the lords lately, the format is a little too disruptive for them a lot of the time; however, they do each still play a key role). If your testing says otherwise, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
Thanks for your honesty.
I have tried it for a while and like I say it seems very promising.

I'll also give Havoc Raiser a try, I agree that the deck wants more impactful plays that cost 2 but I'm not happy with it costing RR and it seems like it's only good when you are already ahead on the board.

[egoblinsw]

Splashing black without maindecking an earwig squad or 2 doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, squad increases your winrate against Storm and Elves by a pretty huge margin, and has high upside against Stoneforge decks as well. Possible cuts I see are the Siege Gang, the Rabble, and the Settler (I've never found settler to be good in general). I'd also really like to hear your reasoning for no MWM or Skirk Prospector/Chirugeon. Right now, you have a huge gap in the 2 drop slot as far as proactive plays to make, and I think that's just not safe. T2 is often where most decks are dropping their first threats, and so having gempalm online by t3-t4 is essential imo. I'm also a huge fan of Grenzo, Havoc Raiser right now, particularly against the goodstuff decks like Czech Pile (also strong against D&T as long as they don't karakas him forever; gaining access to a mother of runes is literally game winning in a lot of situations).

Your Manabase:

I'm not convinced by 4 ports anymore, our color requirements have gotten stricter and stricter as we need R and RR pretty quick (as well as B in this list). I'd probably drop the 4th port for the 4th mountain. I'm interested in how your 3 caverns idea works. It seems a bit risky against the tempo decks, but I do see the upside for accessing your sideboard cards.


On the subject of sideboards:
MWM also makes your sideboard therapies way better. 6 discard spells is a lot, maybe too many? I generally stick to 3 therapies, but I can see that thoughtseize makes therapy better and is just nice to have as general hate. With the 3 Surgicals, 2 weirdings, and a cage, you're really set up to beat on Reanimator.

I wouldn't leave home without 2 Blood Moons, they'll help a lot against both Delver and Lands.

I really like the REB and the sideboarded Sparksmith, he's been fantastic for me lately.

Pithing needle seems like it'd balance things out nicely, since you're a little weak to equipment at the moment, and D&T is always over-represented in paper events. Abrade would also be a good versatile option to have access to. Destroys an opposing vial on curve, which can reallllly mess D&T up.

The crucial question is: What are the decks to beat in paper right now? I personally think we should build with Czech Pile, Grixis Delver, Elves, D&T, and Storm as the top 5, with BUG Delver, Lands, and Omnisneak as the next best decks (maybe miracles too). There's a lot of graveyard stuff happening right now (snapcaster, DRS, Delve Creatures, Loam strats, Reanimation, etc), so perhaps we should be playing Relic again since it's so versatile in a bunch of matchups.

In your mystery slot, I think the card you're looking for is Minister of Pain :) Kills TNN, and can be vialed in on 3. Also nukes a D&T, Elves, or Pyromancer board.

I haven't been super locked into the metagame lately though, outside of data that's published online, so others may feel quite differently.

I see your point about 2-drops being missing. I've been leaning on Port and Wierding as my "2 drops". If I go down a port, I would add MWMs.
The way I see it, mana denial is MOST important turn 2-3. That's where we can really keep people off of impactful plays. Therefore, I've opted to cut my 2-drops in favor of waste/port/removal on T2. I figure if we can get over the "hump" of either lackey connecting or vial getting to 3, we're in good shape. Therefore, instead of a proactive T2, I'm aiming slowing my opponent's turn 2 down. I'm really interested in how people think about this decision point though, I'm really not sure which is better.

I can see how 1 earwig could be really good main. I think I'll try it in the Rabble slot and see how things go.

I'm super high on Settler, and recommend trying it out again. I find that it puts games that would have been close into easy wins fairly often, and can also be a tool to fight Punishing Fire decks and Marit Lage. Combined with high Tarfire counts, he wrecks decks leaning on DRS by turning the mana game completely around.

Regarding Discard, I'm playing it because I'm worried about running narrow answers. I figure the TS/Therapy package is good against almost any combo deck, so rather than hedge one way or another I'm going for the shotgun.

[treach]

I went to the local legacy tournament last Sunday and managed to finish 5-1 for the 2nd place among 20 participants. I have to say that luck was (probably) on my side.

Here is the deck I played:

Creature (30)

2x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Goblin Chieftain
1x Goblin Chirurgeon
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
1x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
2x Goblin Warchief
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
1x Lightning Crafter
2x Mogg War Marshal
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Stingscourger
1x Tuktuk Scrapper

Land (23)

2x Arid Mesa
2x Badlands
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Cavern of Souls
3x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
2x Wooded Foothills

Instant (3)

3x Tarfire
Artifact (4)
4x Aether Vial

Sideboard (15)

3x Blood Moon
2x Earwig Squad
1x Goblin Settler
2x Pyrokinesis
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sphere of Resistance
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
2x Warren Weirding

I faced four Leovold decks, some of them BUG, some czech pile, and one was some kind of a Deathblade Leovold deck. Anyhow, I won against all of them, thanks to the grindy power of Goblins. The two remaining opponents were both on storm (one ANT, one ANT-less) and I even managed to beat one (ANT). Here are some highlights from the tournament.

Chirurgeon is decent in my metagame and came out strong. Mogg War Marshal were great as well, paid echo and went for the grind. I really love Tuktuk Scrapper interaction and even managed to vial one in response to maelstrom pulse (I had two vials and one Scrapper on board) to destroy his batterskull and one of the vials to save the other one. I even managed to win one game with Kiki-Crafter-Chirurgeon combo, it was fun and exciting.

I really like Earwig Squad and am thinking about upping the Skirk Prospector count, but either way I'll be packing 3 Earwigs in the side from now on. Blood Moon won a few games on its own and I feel like its a good time for the enchantment.

Well, this is all for now. I played with Winstigator list for a while but struggled a bit and after coming back to Port Goblins, I feel very good about the deck.

[Redrum]

I played in Legacy champs last Saturday. I ended up 6-4 and dropping but I started 6-2 and I was in contention all day. Round 9 I screwed myself by missing a vial counter during my upkeep and it ruined my whole day. I was 0-2 verse death and taxes, including my round 9 punt. 2-1 verse eldrazi decks. 3-0 verse 4 color pile. I beat some jund type deck and lost to a grixis deck where the guy kolaghan commanded/ lightning bolted me into oblivion. I was really sleeping on Kolaghan command until this guy cast it & recast it with snapcaster. Anyway my list looks like this.


Lands:

3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Swamp
2 Badlands
3 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshall
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Tuk-Tuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

Other Stuff
4 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding
3 Aether Vials

I know, I know 3 Vials is just not acceptable but I've played 3 for years, not much different from 4. Also I'm going back to 23 lands, 22 just doesn't cut it. I've mulled alot since going to 22

[Redrum]

forgot my board...

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amenthyst
2 Blood Moon
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extractions

[Quackers]

Got top 8 in the 5k yesterday at eternal weekendwith the same list that I top 4d with at our local city champs. Im on my phone so I won't write a whole write up right now, but here is the list again.

4 waste
4 cavern
4 ports
10 mountain

4 lackey
4 matron
4 ringleader
4 warchief
2 chieftain
2 mwm
1 siege gang
1 krenko
1 lightning crafter
1 stingscourger
1 chirurgeon
1 tuk tuk
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Sharpshooter

2 gempalm
4 vial
4 tarfire


3 chalice
2 blood moon
2 pyrokinesis
2 piledriver
1 sharpshooter
1 tuktuk
1 stingscourger
3 Grafdigger's Cage


Really digging this list Prince Cortez has had success with as well. Seems very solid. I just made some tweaks to the sideboard.

In order I beat
Dredge
Turbo depths
Turbo depths again
Drew vs Czech pile
Lost to Deathblade
Beat maverick for the win and in
Then lost to the same Deathblade player in the finals.

There was another goblins player in the top 8 as well. I didn't get a chance to see his list though. Don't know if he posts here.

I played in every legacy event running the same list and remained consistently positive with the following records.
3-2 in the trial
3-2 in the 2nd trial.
4-3-1 in the main event
And then the top 8 in the 5k.

I feel this is the most consistent list right now that is posting results. I urge everyone to give it a try.

[menph]

[...]

3 chalice
2 blood moon
2 pyrokinesis
2 piledriver
1 sharpshooter
1 tuktuk
1 stingscourger
3 Grafdigger's Cage


Really digging this list Prince Cortez has had success with as well. Seems very solid. I just made some tweaks to the sideboard.

In order I beat
Dredge
Turbo depths
Turbo depths again
Drew vs Czech pile
Lost to Deathblade
Beat maverick for the win and in
Then lost to the same Deathblade player in the finals.

There was another goblins player in the top 8 as well. I didn't get a chance to see his list though. Don't know if he posts here.

I played in every legacy event running the same list and remained consistently positive with the following records.
3-2 in the trial
3-2 in the 2nd trial.
4-3-1 in the main event
And then the top 8 in the 5k.

I feel this is the most consistent list right now that is posting results. I urge everyone to give it a try.

how do you feel about palying both cage and chalice in your SB?
in wich MU do you use cage?
i guess there is a nonbo in MU such as Eleves or storm since i'd play cage and chalice @1 with the risk to keep cage locked in my hand

[Quackers]

how do you feel about palying both cage and chalice in your SB?
in wich MU do you use cage?
i guess there is a nonbo in MU such as Eleves or storm since i'd play cage and chalice @1 with the risk to keep cage locked in my hand

Brought Graff in twice the entire weekend. Once against storm and it didn't matter and I brought the chalices in too, they just got me on turn 2 twice in a row. The other time was against dredge and I did not bring the chalices in. He pretty much scooped when I played it.

[Sagratho]

4 waste
4 cavern
4 ports
10 mountain

4 lackey
4 matron
4 ringleader
4 warchief
2 chieftain
2 mwm
1 siege gang
1 krenko
1 lightning crafter
1 stingscourger
1 chirurgeon
1 tuk tuk
1 Kiki-Jiki

2 gempalm
4 vial
4 tarfire


3 chalice
2 blood moon
2 pyrokinesis
2 piledriver
1 sharpshooter
1 tuktuk
1 stingscourger
3 Grafdigger's Cage


Hey myth, ur list has only 59 cards in Main Deck and 16 cards on SB... it means a DQ!
Maybe Sharshooter in mindeck right??

[Quackers]

Hey myth, ur list has only 59 cards in Main Deck and 16 cards on SB... it means a DQ!
Maybe Sharshooter in mindeck right??

Sorry, yes, there is a sharpshooter in the mainboard. I got deck checked 3 times in the 5k on Sunday with no DQ, so we're good. haha
The sideboard is at 15 though. I'm running a sharpshooter in the main and the side.

[Sagratho]

why is goblin chirurgeon better than skirk prospector??

[Quackers]

why is goblin chirurgeon better than skirk prospector??

Both are pretty good.

With all the spot removal right now, I really like having Chirurgeon more. Especially with a stronger top end like that list runs.

[kombatkiwi]

why is goblin chirurgeon better than skirk prospector??

Swords to Plowshares and other non-destroy removal is at a historic low at the moment (Top ban making UW control far less prevalent, plus DNT apparently struggling vs CP) so Chirurgeon effectively blocks most removal spells (Decay, Bolt, Push). It can also make combat very awkward for the opponent. Affinity decks have often played 1-2 copies of Welding Jar, Chirurgeon is like an upgraded Welding Jar because it makes every other nonland card you control also a Welding Jar.

If you play high numbers of MWM or expect to play against removal that dodges regenerate then Prospector might be better, or if you don't have many finisher goblins that you care about protecting (but it seems like most lists have Krenko, Kiki Jiki etc).

I like Chirurgeon because I feel that it has much greater synergy with Rabblemaster, which is another card I already think is very good (as I have tried to justify on the last couple of pages).
Not playing the Kiki-Crafter combo is also a slight incentive to play neither but I have been happy with Chirurgeon even without the infinite.

[PrinceCortez]

Really digging this list Prince Cortez has had success with as well. Seems very solid. I just made some tweaks to the sideboard.

I feel this is the most consistent list right now that is posting results. I urge everyone to give it a try.

It's nice to see some love for my list, i put a lot of time into trying to put together a very good build. The sideboard was just tweaked for my local meta but i do feel that this is the strongest build in a more fair oriented meta with the main combo decks being reanimation strategies. I wish i was on the east coast for all of those SCG events but at least i can to play it in the 2 local events we have here a month.


why is goblin chirurgeon better than skirk prospector??

As for this I think kombatkiwi's explanation was perfect but, I honestly don't think that skirk prospector should be in the deck at all. It has never done well for me in the past and i always felt disappointed drawing it and "dark ritual"ing out a matron/ringleader never felt that good when it took up most of my board. The only situation that i liked it in was when i had an active krenko but, if the krenko died before an activation the prospector was just useless. I think the reason that it was stuck in the deck in the first place is because it was in the goblins deck when onslaught was in standard. I feel that skirk prospector should just be left to onslaught standard days and we should just play Chirurgeon over it permanently.

[Marlock96]

It's nice to see some love for my list, i put a lot of time into trying to put together a very good build. The sideboard was just tweaked for my local meta but i do feel that this is the strongest build in a more fair oriented meta with the main combo decks being reanimation strategies. I wish i was on the east coast for all of those SCG events but at least i can to play it in the 2 local events we have here a month.



As for this I think kombatkiwi's explanation was perfect but, I honestly don't think that skirk prospector should be in the deck at all. It has never done well for me in the past and i always felt disappointed drawing it and "dark ritual"ing out a matron/ringleader never felt that good when it took up most of my board. The only situation that i liked it in was when i had an active krenko but, if the krenko died before an activation the prospector was just useless. I think the reason that it was stuck in the deck in the first place is because it was in the goblins deck when onslaught was in standard. I feel that skirk prospector should just be left to onslaught standard days and we should just play Chirurgeon over it permanently.

I totally disagree with you. Skirk prospector is probably the only tool we have to fix our mana and accelerate our drops in case we don't have vials or lackey on board. It's also awesome considering the sinergy with MWM casting/cycling tarfires/gempalm Incineretors from nowere.
I think that people rely too much on lackey and vials.. Guys, if a lackey connects or a vial ticks to 3 we have won 90% of times; You should focus more about those situations where the only way to cast your creatures is your lands. That's why I think that prospector is absolutely a must. Cheers ^^

[Cringe]

Hey guys! Just getting back into the swing of things and went and built goblins! I’m running the RB build and I just don’t seem to understand when grenzo becomes useful. Is he a closer? Or should I always try and drop him for two? I’m also only
Running two MWM. Should I drop those for a smirk prospector and chirurgeon?

[kombatkiwi]

I think that people rely too much on lackey and vials.. Guys, if a lackey connects or a vial ticks to 3 we have won 90% of times; You should focus more about those situations where the only way to cast your creatures is your lands. That's why I think that prospector is absolutely a must. Cheers ^^

I can agree with the assessment 'spells are too expensive', but 'sac creatures for more mana' is not a very appealing solution. I would rather focus on other ways to solve this problem that don't put you behind on resources, such as playing more removal to survive until lategame or trying to not play so many expensive spells.

Re: Grenzo, you can safely play that card on x = 0 in most situations. Casting it for 1 means you can hit Krenko off of it and casting it for 2 means that it doesn't die to bolt. I have tried the RB Grenzo for a while in the past and while I don't think it's a bad card, I think it's most useful in matchups where Goblins is already favoured because it's essentially just a very grindy/slow Matron/Ringleader type of effect.

[Marlock96]

I can agree with the assessment 'spells are too expensive', but 'sac creatures for more mana' is not a very appealing solution. I would rather focus on other ways to solve this problem that don't put you behind on resources, such as playing more removal to survive until lategame or trying to not play so many expensive spells.

Re: Grenzo, you can safely play that card on x = 0 in most situations. Casting it for 1 means you can hit Krenko off of it and casting it for 2 means that it doesn't die to bolt. I have tried the RB Grenzo for a while in the past and while I don't think it's a bad card, I think it's most useful in matchups where Goblins is already favoured because it's essentially just a very grindy/slow Matron/Ringleader type of effect.

If you want to survive until lategame you'll have to waste/port down your enemy while shooting at his pieces.. only prospector can do this job. I feel like I need him in every game I play, just because it's so much strong if followed by a MWM or any shoot in hand.. Obviously, it shouldn't be used as a ritual, that means: T1 prospector T2 haste lord ----> that's the worst move you could do with prospector
I went top 4 in a 183 players event winning 2 games dodging Moats, it was February and Top was still legal, but still I think that prospector needs a place in the main absoutely.

[menph]

personally i like both this card since they are both very powerful and useful in many situations.

prospector help us casting the big guys whenever we are short on lands/vial or our opponent is making pressure to our mana base. moreover he allow us to cheat on mana and make very unpredictable plays for opponents some times.
i also found chirurgeon to be incredibly powerful lately since he make very hard for opponents to remove our key pieces. if your meta is heavy on spot removals chirurgeon is a very solid card. atm i'm playing chirurgeon and i'm very happy about it

in my opinion there is a sort of paradox between those cards:
-higher number of finisher makes chirurgeon better
-higher number of finisher makes the curve higher
-higher curve makes prospector better

[egoblinsw]

Hi all,

Went 9-6 at SCG DC (disappointing after a 9-3 start).

1-1 vs Elves
1-1 vs D+T
2-0 vs Stoneblade
1-2 vs Grixis Delver
1-0 vs 4c delver
1-0 vs UR Delver
0-1 vs Turbo-Depths
0-1 vs Sneak and Show
1-0 vs Czech Pile
1-0 vs eldrazi stompy

I played Rb, with no prospector/crafter. The fair deck losses I had were almost entirely due to stumbling on Mana. I think I will add 1-2 prospectors and see how that helps.

The only match I lost to running out of gas was vs. Elves, and I think that was straight variance (5 runnning lands two games in a row).

[Marlock96]

personally i like both this card since they are both very powerful and useful in many situations.

prospector help us casting the big guys whenever we are short on lands/vial or our opponent is making pressure to our mana base. moreover he allow us to cheat on mana and make very unpredictable plays for opponents some times.
i also found chirurgeon to be incredibly powerful lately since he make very hard for opponents to remove our key pieces. if your meta is heavy on spot removals chirurgeon is a very solid card. atm i'm playing chirurgeon and i'm very happy about it

in my opinion there is a sort of paradox between those cards:
-higher number of finisher makes chirurgeon better
-higher number of finisher makes the curve higher
-higher curve makes prospector better
Firstly you should try to cast your creatures before trying to protect them :D

[1GoblinLackey]

My general thoughts on the prospector/chirugeon (henceforth referred to as Doc. Gob):

Both are pretty strong, and people are right about the low levels of StP making Doc. Gob attractive. Being able to tap out on t3 for a warchief and be almost positive he will survive is pretty great. However, I think Prospector solves the deck's real problems a lot more than Doc. Gob does. 90% of the games we lose, it's because we were too slow to deploy our threats and card advantage engines. Prospector also has some side benefit in lists with siege-gang, since sometimes you can just nuke your own board to machine-gun your opponent to death.

Honestly, I've contemplated running both lately. I'm happy to draw prospector virtually any game and in any situation (besides imminent death).

Overall, both could be worth playing nowadays. I don't think people should think that running one necessitates cutting the other.


On another topic: SuicideSteve made a post about how strong K command is in Goblins (which I wholly agree with, I've run 1-2 in my all my RB sideboards for awhile now). He also brought up how we lose so often to our own mana development issues, and I can echo this. A single wasteland can obliterate us with depressing ease. So, I've gone with trying out the greatest mana advantage tool of them all, life from the loam! K command here serves to get back critical creatures dredged over by loam, and having 2 maindeck shatters is wonderful. Haven't played a lot of games yet, but will be doing some proxying and playing soon to test the idea. Here's my current list in progress:

Loam Goblins// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Aether Vial

// 28 Creature
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chirurgeon
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Stingscourger
1 Earwig Squad

// 4 Instant
2 Tarfire
2 Kolaghan's Command

// 22 Land
3 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Pendelhaven

// 2 Sorcery
2 Life from the Loam


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 1 Siege-Gang Commander
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 1 Stingscourger
SB: 1 Goblin Piledriver

// 1 Enchantment
SB: 1 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

// 1 Land/
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter

// 5 Sorcery
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Warren Weirding


Some choice explanations:

Lightning crafter over other finishers: Mostly just want to test the card more, but I like the flickerwisp-like effect it has for protecting good creatures. Championing matron or ringleader also seems great. With Loam I can justify a little bit of a higher curve. I'm trying to increase the overall power level of the cards in the deck: Ringleader is only as good as the cards he hits for you, so I wanted something high impact.

Fewer tarfires because I get access to the 2 K commands to pick off DRS. Obviously that doesn't solve the t1 problem, but with 2 tarfire, 2 k command, 3 gempalms, sharpshooter, and crafter, I think I have enough removal. The Pendelhaven also is effectively another tarfire as far as connecting with lackey is concerned.

Manabase: It's possible I could jam 2 ports in here by cutting a cavern and the pendelhaven. Not sure if this a good idea, 1 pendelhaven seems better than 2 ports. Loam lets you wasteland-lock people, so port might not be necessary anyway. Could also make another cut (the basic?) for barbarian ring as more removal, but going basic-less seems pretty bold.

I'm maindecking squad because my combo matchup looks pretty abysmal, even more than normal. It's possible I should be playing some maindeck piledrivers, this list has incredible inevitability, and more redundancy than normal goblins, but is certainly slow to kill. Another option could be Kiki to unlock the kiki-crafter combo as a way to steal wins against decks with very little removal.

No Prospector (despite my statement earlier in the post) because his role is fairly well filled by the Loams.

Sideboard:
Lots of Goblin 1-ofs (6 including weirding). This is to compensate for the relatively low goblin count in the maindeck (30), I don't want the numbers falling too far in post board games.

Extra utility land: GQ seems like the best 1-of, since it could knock out a deck with only a few or no basics to search up. GQing some control decks out of their colors is a real thing with loam as well.

Anti combo package: Probably needs to be more robust; I feel especially susceptible to Sneak and Show and Reanimator. Could go as extreme as running Leyline of the Void or Confusion in the ranks. Storm is pretty even postboard thanks to the maindeck squad and a bunch of discard spells postboard.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this idea forum!

[kombatkiwi]

If anyone is having mana problems and wants to play Prospector maybe you should just play 1 more basic Mountain. DNT players consider less than 23 lands to be risky (IIRC) and they don't even have creatures that cost more than 3 mana (barring 1-2 optional Palace Jailer and P&K in the splash build). I see plenty of lists here with only 22 and I think this is also too few for Goblins.

[jrw1985]

Hi all,

Went 9-6 at SCG DC (disappointing after a 9-3 start).

1-1 vs Elves
1-1 vs D+T
2-0 vs Stoneblade
1-2 vs Grixis Delver
1-0 vs 4c delver
1-0 vs UR Delver
0-1 vs Turbo-Depths
0-1 vs Sneak and Show
1-0 vs Czech Pile
1-0 vs eldrazi stompy

I played Rb, with no prospector/crafter. The fair deck losses I had were almost entirely due to stumbling on Mana. I think I will add 1-2 prospectors and see how that helps.

The only match I lost to running out of gas was vs. Elves, and I think that was straight variance (5 runnning lands two games in a row).

Do you have your list handy? I'd like to take a look at your manabase. I don't think Prospector helps the manabase that much, but running more Mountains does. The decklists I have been happiest with recently* have been MonoR and have run 24 lands with lots of basic mountains.

*though I haven't played Magic for 2+ months so...

[menph]

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17359&f=LE

This D&T list run the 5th wasteland aka Field of Ruin

Does not look bad to me. Activation cost of 2 is something, but since you get back a mountain it practically works at the same cost of a Rishadan Port. If opponent is not playing basics, it can create a sweet mana advantage.
Deserve a try i guess



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[egoblinsw]

Do you have your list handy? I'd like to take a look at your manabase. I don't think Prospector helps the manabase that much, but running more Mountains does. The decklists I have been happiest with recently* have been MonoR and have run 24 lands with lots of basic mountains.

*though I haven't played Magic for 2+ months so...

My manabase was:
4 Waste
4 Port
3 Cavern
3 Mountain
2 Badlands
7 Fetchland.

Overall in the weekend I was pretty happy with the mana, but it's true that I lost several games to Wasteland. On the other hand, my black cards were AWESOME, saving multiple games. (especially wierding, and SB Engineered Plague). I have really back/forth feelings about Port, sometimes it's the best card, sometimes it's a pain. If i were to change the base, it would probably be some number of ports for either mountains or ancient tombs.

[jrw1985]

My manabase was:
4 Waste
4 Port
3 Cavern
3 Mountain
2 Badlands
7 Fetchland.

Overall in the weekend I was pretty happy with the mana, but it's true that I lost several games to Wasteland. On the other hand, my black cards were AWESOME, saving multiple games. (especially wierding, and SB Engineered Plague). I have really back/forth feelings about Port, sometimes it's the best card, sometimes it's a pain. If i were to change the base, it would probably be some number of ports for either mountains or ancient tombs.

I think you had mana problems because you don't run quite enough basic R sources. I would cut at least 1 Port if not 2 to add more Mountain or Badlands. I have found that 12 basic R is the minimum but 14 really cleans up mana screw issues. If you look at a hypergeometric calculator you'll see there's only about a 5% difference in the probability of drawing a basic R source running 12 vs 14 mountains, but over the course of a 7 Rd tournament that's one game of mana screw.

I'm planning on playing this weekend for the first time in a few months. I'm basically going to use my list that was having a lot of success over the summer, but with a few changes. I'm running 24 lands to keep the mana consistent and cutting Chrome Mox because I don't want to lose any CA in 4c Control MUs. I'm employing a toolbox build because that's my style and I think it's the best for the long game. I'm still running 1-of Piledriver because when it's good it is soooooo gooood. I have no idea what my meta will look like (probably a bunch of delvers and a variety of combo) so i'm just trying to have the most consistent, grindy, flexible maindeck possible.

Sideboard is trying to improve MUs against the decks to beat...

DnT - 2 Tuktuks and 2 Pyrokinesis should be enough to keep them from overwhelming us with both board presence and equipment.

Elves - Chalice, Pyrokinesis and Cage will slow their development.... Is Ensnaring Bridge worth it just to cut off Craterhoof alpha strikes?

ANT - Chalice, Thorn, Cage, Surgical, that's 6 cards to bring in. It isn't great, but half the time we'll get one in our opening hand

Czech Pile - Just Blood Moons and a Karakas. You don't really want Pyro because of CA. You don't really want Chalice or Thorn because of K Command. Just keep the goblin count high and out-grind.

Grixis Delver - Chalice, Pyro, and Blood Moon are all options

Sneak and Show - Karakas, E Bridge, Chalice and Thorn, possibly Surgical if they're running Intuition. This is a rough MU all around, almost as bad as ANT.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Tarfire
3 Gempalm
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Cheiftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko
1 Sharpshooter
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Lightning Crafter
2 Goblin Chirurgeon
1 Piledriver

4 Wasteland
3 Port
3 Cavern of Souls
14 Mountain

Side
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Karakas
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tuktuk Scrapper

Let me know if you think I'm missing anything or at all off-base.

Thanks!

[jrw1985]

My tournament was pretty underwhelming. 1-3

R1 - I beat a Delver deck pretty easily 2-1. I did the out-grinding thing in the games I won. The game I lost was because my hand had Cavern and Port and Cavern got Wasted, never saw another R source.

R2 - I lost to a Reanimator Storm combo deck 0-2. T1 he Reanimated Grizz both games. I mulled to 3 cards G2 looking for a piece of hate (which was ultimately the right move). I appreciate that a mull to 3 or 4 isn't all that terrible in this situation because all you need is Land+ 1Drop + Hate and you're off to the races. I also had a ton of good hate that I sided in, I just couldn't mull to a relevant piece, despite bringing in the following...
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Karakas
1 Ensnaring Bridge

R3 - I lost to UW Control. Both losses came from two things: 1) opponent had multiple TNN while I was only playing one Piledriver to run through them and 2) I drew pretty dead and did not draw enough CA Goblins to profitably attack into the TNNs. The second game started off well enough, but then I drew lands for 4 or 5 turns in a row late game and just petered out.

R4 - I lost to NicFit Scapeshift 1-2. I again missed having Piledrivers and Warchiefs to bring faster and bigger beats as both losses came when he ramped into 7 or eight lands then cast Scapeshift for the win. On a side note; I still hate Toxic Deluge. That card is OP AF.

The Kiki-Crafter-Chirgureon combo was a bust today. None of those cards were helpful at all and I repeatedly felt like I didn't have enough pressure cards to close out the game when I did have board advantage. I would want to try it again with a super stripped down version. I think a more aggressive approach would be better than the toolbox right now. I would leave the manabase the same but change up the following....
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Tarfire
4 Gempalm
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tuktuk
1 Stingscourger

Super basic. But the deck wants a real bomb to drop off Lackey and it wants a faster clock. Having so many toolbox Goblins seemed to hold me back yesterday.

[Quackers]

My tournament was pretty underwhelming. 1-3

R1 - I beat a Delver deck pretty easily 2-1. I did the out-grinding thing in the games I won. The game I lost was because my hand had Cavern and Port and Cavern got Wasted, never saw another R source.

R2 - I lost to a Reanimator Storm combo deck 0-2. T1 he Reanimated Grizz both games. I mulled to 3 cards G2 looking for a piece of hate (which was ultimately the right move). I appreciate that a mull to 3 or 4 isn't all that terrible in this situation because all you need is Land+ 1Drop + Hate and you're off to the races. I also had a ton of good hate that I sided in, I just couldn't mull to a relevant piece, despite bringing in the following...
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Karakas
1 Ensnaring Bridge

R3 - I lost to UW Control. Both losses came from two things: 1) opponent had multiple TNN while I was only playing one Piledriver to run through them and 2) I drew pretty dead and did not draw enough CA Goblins to profitably attack into the TNNs. The second game started off well enough, but then I drew lands for 4 or 5 turns in a row late game and just petered out.

R4 - I lost to NicFit Scapeshift 1-2. I again missed having Piledrivers and Warchiefs to bring faster and bigger beats as both losses came when he ramped into 7 or eight lands then cast Scapeshift for the win. On a side note; I still hate Toxic Deluge. That card is OP AF.

The Kiki-Crafter-Chirgureon combo was a bust today. None of those cards were helpful at all and I repeatedly felt like I didn't have enough pressure cards to close out the game when I did have board advantage. I would want to try it again with a super stripped down version. I think a more aggressive approach would be better than the toolbox right now. I would leave the manabase the same but change up the following....
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Tarfire
4 Gempalm
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tuktuk
1 Stingscourger

Super basic. But the deck wants a real bomb to drop off Lackey and it wants a faster clock. Having so many toolbox Goblins seemed to hold me back yesterday.

I ran the same toolbox version for a while and I ran into the same problems. Lackey triggers don't feel as powerful, removal hurts so much more knowing you wont get another one of those cards again, little to help close out the game. I often times go back to the list you have here to regain my bearings on what works and what doesn't in a meta. I do think fitting in sharpshooter is always worth it at this point.

[menph]

went 1-2-1 sunday.
lost 0-2 against grixis control: mana screwed g1 and kept a bad 5 card hand g2. i was afraid to go under 5 with mulligan since is a MU where card advantage is so important, but it didn't pay off in the end.

lost 1-2 against miracles. one game beaten by gideon and the other one by 3 or 4 angels tokens. the MU isn't bad but it's very hard to beat a well timed entreat th Angels.
i think i sideboarded wrong, since i put in 2 pyrostatic pillars that where shattered very fast by disenchant or judgements. probabily the best thing to do is just keeping the goblin count high and go for the long game, trying to keep a ringleader in hand ready to touch the field after terminus.
i'm also not sure about blood moon. is a strong card, expecially now, but it feels slow, the meta is well prepared to deal with enchantments and 3rd turn is often very important for us. i'm keeping it just for lands, eldrazi (big or small) and maybe turbo depth, in other fair 3+ colors mu i think is a bad choice

won 2-0 easily against grixis delver

1-1 against my friend playing jund. this was the best game in the day: g1 very long and fun game (40 minutes at least). he had mirri's guile and library, and found soon punishing-groove combo, but i beat him thank to 2 great 3-card ringleaders, and matron re-triggered by crafter. g2 was similar: a lot of removals, crafter championed ringleader and i drew a lot of cards, but he played a tarmo in first turns and killed 5 goblins with a golgari charm, after that i chumped for a while since i ran out of goblins.

i put in crafter at the last minute instead of sparksmith. he never bolted once, but was good in eating removals and retriggering goblins looks good, but many times i have no good championing target and 4cc is preatty high. sparksmith can bolt from turn 3.
also krenko never made a single activation even if i play 5 haste lords.
chirurgeon was very good!

the list was:

4 cavern of souls
11 mountain
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

4 aether vial

4 tarfire
2 gempalm incinerator

4 goblin lackey
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
1 goblin chieftain
2 mogg war marshall

1 tuktuk scrapper
1 stingscourger
1 goblin piledriver
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 lightning crafter
1 siege-gang commander
1 krenko, mob boss
1 goblin chirurgeon

\\SB

3 calice del nulla
2 pyrokinesis
1 sparksmith
1 tuktuk scrapper
1 stingscourger
2 blood moon
2 pyrostatic pillar
1 cripta di tormod
1 cage
1 karakas

next change will probabily be cutting crafter for a 2 drop like sparksmith/piledriver/gempalm, and cutting krenko for 2nd SGC or chieftain


I think a more aggressive approach would be better than the toolbox right now. i don't know, it really depends by meta. i think the best thing is to maintain the balance in order to be able to change our role in different situations. i don't like 1x-heavy list, but at the same time i like to have access to silverbullets when needed and keep deck's plasticity.

[ScatmanX]

After a couple of bad small tournament runs, (4-3, 2-2, and something else), got to play in Barcelona this weekend, and got it good again.

Beat DnT, grixis thopter planeswalkers, bug tnn control, Dredge and 2x Turbo Depths. Lost twice to Grixis Delver, them both with busted starts being on the play.

Played a very aggressive Instigator list:
8 mountains
4 caverns
3 wasteland
2 port
2 pendelheaven
1 karakas
3 chrome mox

4 vial, lackey, gator, chieftain, matron, ringleader, tarfire
2 Goblin Piledriver, Gempalm incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis, Sparksmith, kiki-jiki, krenko, sgc, tuktuk scrapper
(61 cards)

Sb:
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Relic
2 Pithing needle, Faerie Macabre, Pyrokinesis
1 Scrapper, Stingscourger

Got 15th out of 157, which was alright.
Long live the boys!


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[Sagratho]

Hello guys

I'm training to nationals on my country, so i need ur help to build a perfect side and learn something abouth some match up. Please help me fix this list, and tell me if i forgot any card.

Tier 0
Grixis
Side-in:3x Blood Moon, 1x Sharpshooter.
Maybe: 4x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Pyroblast, 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Chalice of The Void, 1 Relic of Progenitus

4c Leovold
Side-in: 3x Blood Moon, 2x Pyroblast
Maybe: 2x Surgical Extraction, 1x Pyrokinesis, 1 Relic of Progenitus


Tier 1
Death and Taxes
Side-in: 1x Tuktuk Scrapper, 1x Pyrokinesis, 1x Sharpshooter
Maybe: 2x Abrade, 1x Pithing Needle

Sneak Atack
Side-in: 4x Thorn of Amethist, 2x Pyroblast
Maybe: 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Chalice of the Void, 1x Pithing Needle

Storm
Side In: 4x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Surgical Extraction, 1x Grafdigger's Cage, 1x Sharpshooter
Maybe: 3x Blood Moon, 2x Pyroblast, 2x Chalice of the Void, 1x Surgical Extraction, 1x Relic of Progenitus

Eldrazi
Side-in: 3x Blood Moon, 1x Pyrokinesis, 1x Tuktuk Scrapper
Maybe: 2x Abrade, 1x Stingscourger.


Tier 1.5
Stoneblade
Side-in: 2x Pyroblast, 1x Tuktuk Scrapper
Maybe: 3x Blood Moon, 2x Abrade, 1x Pyrokinesis

Elves
Side-in: 1x Sharpshooter, 1x Pyrokinesis, 1x Grafdigger's Cage
Maybe: 2x Chalice of the Void

UR Delver
Side in: 1x Pyrokinesis, 1x Sharpshooter (Com Young Pyromancer), 2x Pyroblast
Maybe: 4x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Chalice of the Void


Tier 2
Sultai Delver
Side in: 3x Blood Moon
Maybe: 2x Pyroblast, 1x Pyrokinesis

Lands
Side in: 3x Blood Moon, 2x Surgical Extraction
Maybe: 1x Relic of Progenitus, 1x Pithing Needle

BR Reanimator
Side in: 2~3x Surgical Extraction, 1 Grafdigger's Cage
Maybe: 4x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Chalice of the Void, 1 Stingscourger

Miracle
Side in: 4x Thorn of Amethist, 2x Pyroblast, 1x Sharpshooter
Maybe: 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Abrade

Turbo Detphs
Side-in: 3x Blood Moon, 1x Tuktuk Scrapper
Maybe: 2x Abrade, 1x Pithing Needle

MonoR Stomp
Side in: 1x Tuktuk Scrapper, 1x Pyrokinesis
Maybe: 2x Abrade

Considerations
I really dont like to run chalice of the void on goblins... thorn of amethys seems to be better, becouse thorn is great against combodecks and on grixis match, a match that i should side-in chalice, i need to side out tarfire... so i think it don't worth.

I like the information of surgical extraction, more than faerie macabre.

But i'm here to learn, so i really need your help to build the greatest sideboard ever!!

Thx guys.

[menph]

Hello guys

I'm training to nationals on my country, so i need ur help to build a perfect side and learn something abouth some match up. Please help me fix this list, and tell me if i forgot any card.

Tier 0
Grixis
Side-in:3x Blood Moon, 1x Sharpshooter.
Maybe: 4x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Pyroblast, 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Chalice of The Void, 1 Relic of Progenitus

4c Leovold
Side-in: 3x Blood Moon, 2x Pyroblast
Maybe: 2x Surgical Extraction, 1x Pyrokinesis, 1 Relic of Progenitus


Tier 1
Death and Taxes
Side-in: 1x Tuktuk Scrapper, 1x Pyrokinesis, 1x Sharpshooter
Maybe: 2x Abrade, 1x Pithing Needle

Sneak Atack
Side-in: 4x Thorn of Amethist, 2x Pyroblast
Maybe: 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Chalice of the Void, 1x Pithing Needle

Storm
Side In: 4x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Surgical Extraction, 1x Grafdigger's Cage, 1x Sharpshooter
Maybe: 3x Blood Moon, 2x Pyroblast, 2x Chalice of the Void, 1x Surgical Extraction, 1x Relic of Progenitus

Eldrazi
Side-in: 3x Blood Moon, 1x Pyrokinesis, 1x Tuktuk Scrapper
Maybe: 2x Abrade, 1x Stingscourger.


Tier 1.5
Stoneblade
Side-in: 2x Pyroblast, 1x Tuktuk Scrapper
Maybe: 3x Blood Moon, 2x Abrade, 1x Pyrokinesis

Elves
Side-in: 1x Sharpshooter, 1x Pyrokinesis, 1x Grafdigger's Cage
Maybe: 2x Chalice of the Void

UR Delver
Side in: 1x Pyrokinesis, 1x Sharpshooter (Com Young Pyromancer), 2x Pyroblast
Maybe: 4x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Chalice of the Void


Tier 2
Sultai Delver
Side in: 3x Blood Moon
Maybe: 2x Pyroblast, 1x Pyrokinesis

Lands
Side in: 3x Blood Moon, 2x Surgical Extraction
Maybe: 1x Relic of Progenitus, 1x Pithing Needle

BR Reanimator
Side in: 2~3x Surgical Extraction, 1 Grafdigger's Cage
Maybe: 4x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Chalice of the Void, 1 Stingscourger

Miracle
Side in: 4x Thorn of Amethist, 2x Pyroblast, 1x Sharpshooter
Maybe: 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Abrade

Turbo Detphs
Side-in: 3x Blood Moon, 1x Tuktuk Scrapper
Maybe: 2x Abrade, 1x Pithing Needle

MonoR Stomp
Side in: 1x Tuktuk Scrapper, 1x Pyrokinesis
Maybe: 2x Abrade

Considerations
I really dont like to run chalice of the void on goblins... thorn of amethys seems to be better, becouse thorn is great against combodecks and on grixis match, a match that i should side-in chalice, i need to side out tarfire... so i think it don't worth.

I like the information of surgical extraction, more than faerie macabre.

But i'm here to learn, so i really need your help to build the greatest sideboard ever!!

Thx guys.Full list would be good to understand better your overall strategy.

I like thorn as well, I definitely want to try it out in the future. Is a softer lock than chalice, but the second one is often bad also for us. Keep in mind that thorn will not work for elves and that you need to wait until turn 2, while chalice can touch the field @0 on T1 (storm, Belcher, br reanimator etc)
Surgical is great if you are not going to play chalice.

As i wrote in my previous post I definitely don't like to sideboard heavily against fair deck. Few card (chalice, thorn, moon) can win some games but they are bad choice because there are many ways to play around or deal with (decay, shaman, council judgment, disenchant, abrade, explosive, etc)
The best thing is to keep goblin count high and beat them with consistency.
Non blu fair decks: 2-3 pyrokinesis, tuk tuk (if playing equipment, keep one post board for needle or other artifacts based disruption), sparksmith ( very good t2 play. A couple of activations in early games will change the course of the game). 1-2 GY hate pieces against tarmogoyf or knight of reliquary.
Blu fair deck: just goblin based removals and GY hate if needed. Pyrokinesis is good but try to not have it countered. Tuk tuk is good against strige decks.

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[Sagratho]

Full list would be good to understand better your overall strategy.

Hi, thats my main list:

Lands (21)
10 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Pendelhaven
1 Rishadan Port

Creatures (28)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Sparksmith
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

Other (11)
4 AEther Vial
4 Tarfire
2 Chrome Mox
1 Pyrokinesis

So... 21 lands + 2 Chrome mox and 28 creatures + 4 Tarfire, seems good.

I'm having trouble only against tempodecks, with stifles and daze.. its incredible hard to beat RUG Delver and Grixis. I'm trying this SB right now:

4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

I don't know if i need surgical or relic... becouse BR reanimator its an insta lose, and relic helps against these decks that i told before. Surgical is better against Storm too.

[menph]

I'm having trouble only against tempodecks, with stifles and daze.. its incredible hard to beat RUG Delver and Grixis.
this is strange, i alway found RUG delver a great MU. almost 70% win rate i guess
i always played classic non-instigator list and canadian never been a problem.is definitely the MU i know better and probabily this also matter.
MWM is great here for chump tarmo. try to overwelm them with tokens and avoid to be dazed, stingscourger bouncing a blocker is great some times to go for the lethal attack. trading lackey for t1 delver or goose is fine imho.
cheat with vial is good to have them waste stifle sometimes (edit: I mean bluffing, activating vial in every eot). making pressure on their 6 coloured lands is also important.

Edit: Sometimes you have to deal with stifle playing two abilities per turn in order to save the second one. The opposite for daze: play first the most important spell and try to not tap out. You can understand what they have in hand many times tnx to their moves since is a very linear deck.

grixis not as easy as rug bu also a not bad MU

[Quackers]

I can see the winstigator list having trouble with RUG since it's important to attack their green mana so they can't play goyf and geese. Rishadan port is great for that. You could try and get spicy with surgical on their trops. If it's timely then you are in a really good spot. Also, they typically only run 4-7 main board removal, usually 4 bolts and a forked bolt, maybe dismember. If you can get a couple of those wasted you can stick a krenko and win from there. I love chirurgeon in this match up for this kind of game plan.

Grixis is similar on the number of removal they see in a game. A curve of Chirurgeon, MWM, Lord, Krenko will win that game one very easily if Chirurgeon isn't killed. I guess in winstigator there are more targets that they want to bolt, with the 8 lackeys so leverage that, count their removal and jam a krenko.

On the topic of Chalice, I've been wanting to cut my number down and you bring up a very good point that I want to bring them in for matchups where I also want tarfire and it feels pretty bad. I bring it in against elves, delver, and storm. and I'm thinking I should change that around to bring in more impactful pieces vs elves and delver and then have room for mindbreak traps for storm.

[Stevestamopz]

Traditional RUG Delver was a much easier matchup than the Jonathan Alexander neo "Canadian" lists with Loam/Barb Ring/Hooting Mandrills so I can understand struggling with it.

You just have to do what you do against all Delver decks. Put them to the test when on the play and try and play control while dancing around Daze/Stifle as much as you can on the draw. Obviously this is much easier said than done but keep that plan in mind when evaluating opening hands and sequencing.

[Sagratho]

Thx for all ur help

now, whats the best sideboard against this field???



ArcheType
Percentage


Death and Taxes
9,83


Sneak and Show
9,83


Stoneblade
8,03


Grixisdelver
5,78


Burn
5,48


Reanimator
5,20


UR Delver
4,62


Eldrazi
4,62


Infect
4,05


Miracles
3,47


Elves
3,47


Merfolks
3,47


Dragonstomp
2,89


Lands
2,31


RUG Delver
2,31


Czech Pile
2,31


Storm
1,16


Belcher
1,16


Dredge
1,16



i have this pool of cards:

Composição do side:
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Abrade
4x Relic of Progenitus
4x Pithing Needle
3x Mindbreak trap
3x Blood Moon
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Sudden Demise
3x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pyroblast
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
1x Stingscourger

Its a monoR goblins, am I missing any important card??

[Hanni]

Played the following list at my LGS tonight:

R/b Vial Goblins

Lands (22)
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Creatures (29)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Spells (9)
4 AEther Vial
4 Tarfire
1 Warren Weirding

Sideboard (15)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

I wasn't sure if I should have cut to 1 Chieftan for the 2nd Weirding before the event, and I'm still not sure if I want the 2nd Chieftan or the 2nd Weirding.

Anyway, I went a mediocre 2-2.

R1, BR Discard (random brew), 2-0
He was playing a bunch of discard spells and enchantments that cause loss of life. I ran over him in both games.

R2, Eureka Tell, 0-2
Game one, he turn two's Griselbrand . I put Ringleader in off of Show and Tell, but don't hit the 1-of Weirding. In game two, I have to mull to 6, but my double Therapy hand wrecked him. Only problem is, my hand is slow and I can't really apply any pressure. I'm able to eventually get a Warchief and Piledriver into play by around turn 6, but then he puts an Emrakul into play and I can't topdeck the Matron, Weirding, or Stingscourger I need to salvage the game.

R3, UGw Infect, 1-2
In game one, I keep a greedy 7 that has one land, because it has both a Lackey and a Vial. My turn one Vial gets Dazed, he has blockers for the turn 2 Lackey, but he kills me on his turn three anyway so it doesn't even matter. In game two, I'm able to completely control the board with Tarfire's, Incinerator's, and Wasteland on Inkmoth. I did tutor for a Sharpshooter and put it into off Vial, but he had the Swords to Plowshares. Didn't really matter though, as I had a decent clock to close it out while he had an empty board. Game three was really close, but I was one turn too slow. I had a Warchief in play and could put a Sharpshooter into play the following turn, but he was able to get me with a Blighted Agent pumped with an Invigorate and Berserk. I misplayed this one... I wasted a Tarfire on turn one to kill a Glistener Elf EOT, despite having a turn two Mogg War Marshal, and then died to a Blighted Agent later. Not sure if it would have mattered in the long run, but if I had saved the Tarfire for Blighted Agent, the game may have been different. Live and learn.

R4, Burn, 2-0
Game one he has 3 Price of Progress to my entirely basic Mountain manabase. I'm able to overrun him. In game two, it is really close. He's able to get me down to 5, but I have Warchief in play and my hardcast Ringleader into cycle Gempalm both dodge and kill his Eidolon, and I'm able to close it out before he can draw any more burn spells. I played around Fireblast here, and chose a line that killed him one turn later than I could have otherwise (he had played another Eidolon, and it would have dropped me to 3 life). He didn't have it, but it didn't matter either way.

Deck was super fun to play and felt really streamlined. If I were to play it again, I'd probably run it back with the same 75, although I'm still on the fence with the Weirding/Chieftan split. I kinda wish I could run more Piledrivers too, but there just isn't enough room.

[kombatkiwi]

R2, Eureka Tell, 0-2
Game one, he turn two's Griselbrand . I put Ringleader in off of Show and Tell, but don't hit the 1-of Weirding. In game two, I have to mull to 6, but my double Therapy hand wrecked him. Only problem is, my hand is slow and I can't really apply any pressure. I'm able to eventually get a Warchief and Piledriver into play by around turn 6, but then he puts an Emrakul into play and I can't topdeck the Matron, Weirding, or Stingscourger I need to salvage the game.


If only there was some kind of 3 drop goblin that attacks for 6+ by itself and also makes tokens so you can flashback therapy if you want. :eyebrow:
I'm not trying to be snarky, I don't understand this mantra of "6 LORDS ARE ESSENTIAL, FAST CLOCK = PILEDRIVER" when I (and other people too, apparently) keep finding situations where that philosophy doesn't seem to be working.

[Hanni]

I had plenty of hands with fast clocks in other matchups, I just kept a weak 6 because it had two Therapy in that game.

I opted for 6 haste lords to increase the consistency of having one on the board so that I could Matron for Krenko to finish. I just didn't get to play against any fair matchups, so that gameplan was worse than just going for quick Piledriver beats.

If you're trying to suggest Goblin Rabblemaster instead of the extra haste lords, I'm not sure I agree. Against combo, it's certainly great, but against fair decks, I don't want to be forced to suicide my board when the opponent has bigger blockers.

I would never run less than 4 Warchief, the cost reduction is a critical element of the deck. Chieftan was great the few times I saw him, although 6 haste lords may be one too many.

Regardless, my list is way beyond conventional anyway. No Cavern, no Ports, no toolbox. Aside from a few games where I flooded out on lands, the list felt great though. I also played some for-fun games after the event, going 2-1 against Eldrazi and 0-2 against Aluren, all preboard games.

The deck was fun, and I figured I'd share my experiences. If you don't like my list, that's fine. I haven't played Goblins since 2008, and I wouldn't play it at a large event, so my list is irrelevant anyway.

[Sagratho]

Hello again

I'm in high training to compete in the nationals this month... I need some help on Surgical Extraction. This is the most played card in Legacy's SB... so what r the best target on each match?? which match should i side in this card with another function without being graveyard hate? should i side in only for value??

I mean, how to punish non-graveyard decks with surgical?

I know thats a great card to out skill snapcaster and remove troubles with wasteland/pyroblast help.

[jrw1985]

If only there was some kind of 3 drop goblin that attacks for 6+ by itself and also makes tokens so you can flashback therapy if you want. :eyebrow:
I'm not trying to be snarky, I don't understand this mantra of "6 LORDS ARE ESSENTIAL, FAST CLOCK = PILEDRIVER" when I (and other people too, apparently) keep finding situations where that philosophy doesn't seem to be working.

I ordered some Rabblemasters today. I am not convinced that they're the answer the deck needs at this point, but they provide beats + board position in a way that no other Goblin really does.

I'm also a little interested in Bushwacker as a way to attack into DRS T2. I feel like T1 is fine, T3 onward is fine. T2 continues to be the weak spot in our game. It's made worse by the fact that every other deck seems to really explode on T2.

[egoblinsw]

Hello again

I'm in high training to compete in the nationals this month... I need some help on Surgical Extraction. This is the most played card in Legacy's SB... so what r the best target on each match?? which match should i side in this card with another function without being graveyard hate? should i side in only for value??

I mean, how to punish non-graveyard decks with surgical?

I know thats a great card to out skill snapcaster and remove troubles with wasteland/pyroblast help.

Surgical is mostly for graveyard hate, as a nice card that hits reanimator and Lands. It's also strong against the Punishing Fire decks. Omni-Tell/Sneak+Show sometimes plays some number of Intuition, and when they grab 3 emrakuls, you exile all of them with the trigger on the stack.

I wouldn't bring surgical in for "just value", you want a specific card/cards in mind as your target.

[egoblinsw]

I ordered some Rabblemasters today. I am not convinced that they're the answer the deck needs at this point, but they provide beats + board position in a way that no other Goblin really does.

I'm also a little interested in Bushwacker as a way to attack into DRS T2. I feel like T1 is fine, T3 onward is fine. T2 continues to be the weak spot in our game. It's made worse by the fact that every other deck seems to really explode on T2.

If you're worried about nothing to do T2, you should rethink Port. Port essentially adds 4 2-drops to the deck, by letting you trade your T2 for most of theirs. It's not perfect, but it might be the best we get.

[jrw1985]

Has anyone tried Mogg Raider recently? I know it's not a super exciting card, but it has all the sack-outlet benefits or Skirk Prospector and Chirgureon, but it can also be used on a goblin heavy board to protect against Bolts and combat damage. You could also use it to make a Lackey survive a DRS block... I know it's not a huge benefit but it might be a decent addition.... Just spit-balling here, but it might be good in a build with lots of tokens, which to me means lots of Kenkos and hate lords.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
2 Mogg Raider
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Tarfire
3 Gempalm
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Chieftain
2 Warchief
3 Kenko
1 Tuktuk
1 Stingscourger
22 lands

[Quackers]

Has anyone tried Mogg Raider recently? I know it's not a super exciting card, but it has all the sack-outlet benefits or Skirk Prospector and Chirgureon, but it can also be used on a goblin heavy board to protect against Bolts and combat damage. You could also use it to make a Lackey survive a DRS block... I know it's not a huge benefit but it might be a decent addition.... Just spit-balling here, but it might be good in a build with lots of tokens, which to me means lots of Kenkos and hate lords.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
2 Mogg Raider
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Tarfire
3 Gempalm
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Chieftain
2 Warchief
3 Kenko
1 Tuktuk
1 Stingscourger
22 lands

You'd have to sac 3 goblins to save one from a bolt. Chirugeon only means you have to sac one. The only thing I see it doing that the other sac goblins don't do is push through some damage. Not where I'd want to be.

[Fourbirr]

I'm also a little interested in Bushwacker as a way to attack into DRS T2. I feel like T1 is fine, T3 onward is fine. T2 continues to be the weak spot in our game. It's made worse by the fact that every other deck seems to really explode on T2.

Out T2 is just fine.

See:

T1 -> Land + Vial
T2 -> Port + tick Vial, Port opponent's mana at his upkeep -> Vial in Lackey EOT
T3 -> Warchief + Vial in MWM or Piledriver

or

T1 -> Land + Lackey
T2 -> Port + play daze-proof Tarfire DRS/Delver/YP/Mom/SFM -> Lackey connects into stuff
T3 -> Cast Gobs

or

After sideboarding (e.g. against Combo)
T1 -> Land + Vial
T2 -> Plateau + Thalia -> tick Vial -> Vial in Lackey EOT
T3 -> Port from there

Without Port or Vial or Lackey, just cast a Mogg War Marshall T2, or Sparksmith, or Tarfire, it's still real fine. With 30 creatures main deck, we can afford to take some Daze, STP or Bolts.

In my opinion, T2 is not the problem with Goblins, but our opening hand. As we cannot sculpt our hand with cantrips spells, we have to take our opening hand seriously and consider mulliganing more than blue decks do.

[Hanni]

I would max out on Mogg War Marshal before considering other options like Bushwhacker. MWM does everything you want from a 2-drop. It puts two goblin bodies on the board. It's resilient to spot removal, it makes Incinerator better, it makes Piledriver/Chieftan/Krenko better, it makes Therapy better... I'm not sure why people are running less than the full playset.

In the green splash, you have Tin-street Hooligan. In black, you have Grenzo, Dungeon Warden and Warren Weirding. There's also Goblin Tinkerer in mono red, along with Instigator and the other Grenzo... so there are definitely options for increasing the 2cc range.

I think I'm going to cut a Chieftan for the 2nd Weirding next time I play the deck.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Has anyone tried Mogg Raider recently? I know it's not a super exciting card, but it has all the sack-outlet benefits or Skirk Prospector and Chirgureon, but it can also be used on a goblin heavy board to protect against Bolts and combat damage. You could also use it to make a Lackey survive a DRS block... I know it's not a huge benefit but it might be a decent addition.... Just spit-balling here, but it might be good in a build with lots of tokens, which to me means lots of Kenkos and hate lords.

I think I'll give Raider / Sledder a shot. I don't know why I forgot about that card, I run 8 in my Pauper deck. That sounds exactly like the thing to push past board stalls. I'm not a huge fan of getting blown out via kill spell though, but we'll see.

Also, I still read this every day, to every other day, just haven't had anything to contribute for quite some time. Legacy stopped nearly in it's entirety in my area. But there is an event this coming Saturday I'm considering, and my Guantlet is severely out of date. Sounds like the perfect time to jump back in.

I think this supports a 3 to 4 Mogg War Marshal build, and actually makes me consider Rabblemaster again, as I'll have more sac sources in the main. I'll ponder on it.

[Marlock96]

I think I'll give Raider / Sledder a shot. I don't know why I forgot about that card, I run 8 in my Pauper deck. That sounds exactly like the thing to push past board stalls. I'm not a huge fan of getting blown out via kill spell though, but we'll see.

Also, I still read this every day, to every other day, just haven't had anything to contribute for quite some time. Legacy stopped nearly in it's entirety in my area. But there is an event this coming Saturday I'm considering, and my Guantlet is severely out of date. Sounds like the perfect time to jump back in.

I think this supports a 3 to 4 Mogg War Marshal build, and actually makes me consider Rabblemaster again, as I'll have more sac sources in the main. I'll ponder on it.

The real problem with this deck is living long enough to grind out games. Don't really know why you prefer trading your board for some advantage (like mogg rider/rabblemaster). If you need to smash out a big creature just put another copy of gempalm or any removal in your deck.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

The real problem with this deck is living long enough to grind out games. Don't really know why you prefer trading your board for some advantage (like mogg rider/rabblemaster). If you need to smash out a big creature just put another copy of gempalm or any removal in your deck.

The thing usually holding me back is just Deathrite Shaman. Additionally there are extra alpha strikes available to those who have a Mogg Raider.

I have no idea if it's better, I just simply want to test it.

[Hanni]

The thing usually holding me back is just Deathrite Shaman. Additionally there are extra alpha strikes available to those who have a Mogg Raider.

I have no idea if it's better, I just simply want to test it.

One of the reasons why I play the full playset of Tarfire, and why I'm considering moving up to 2 Warren Weirding. Although, to be fair, there are more reasons than just DRS that justifies that configuration.

I'd much rather rely on removal than effects like Bushwhacker or Mogg Raider, though.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

One of the reasons why I play the full playset of Tarfire, and why I'm considering moving up to 2 Warren Weirding. Although, to be fair, there are more reasons than just DRS that justifies that configuration.

I'd much rather rely on removal than effects like Bushwhacker or Mogg Raider, though.

Sure, and I bet I'll end up on the same conclusion. I'm an advocate of 4 Tarfire normally.

[Marlock96]

The thing usually holding me back is just Deathrite Shaman. Additionally there are extra alpha strikes available to those who have a Mogg Raider.

I have no idea if it's better, I just simply want to test it.
I think that pyrokinesis deserves a place in the main actually, lets you port and develop your board while killing big threats from nowhere. It's really funny when you get your vial forced but you kill delver and DRS on turn two :D

[Eldariel]

Honestly, with the prevalence of low toughness creatures in the whole DTB (Grixis Pyromancer, D&T, Elves, even Czech Pile), Pyrokinesis feels almost criminally efficient at a free 2-for-2 that's sadly not a Goblin but might well be crossing the MD threshold now. It's even decent against Eldrazi & co. and always poses the threat of pushing a Lackey through for Some Goblin Nonsense. Sure it's dead against ANT and SnT but those MUs don't generally come down to Ringleader grinding so the decreased Goblin count doesn't come into play that heavily and the cards you'd replace probably weren't your main plan anyways. And I'd say you should maximize your overall win rate in good match-ups rather than try to hedge against the bad ones.

[jrw1985]

I’ve been goldfishing a lot of brews recently just trying to find something that feels consistent and powerful. The problem that I keep running into is the trade off between flexibility and consistency. We have tons of fun toolbox cards that are great or even necessary, but we don’t have enough deck slots for them. And those specialized cards are often too narrow and become dead in many MUs (take for example Tarfire being great against DRS decks but dead against combo). It seems that given our lack of filtering we just need to do something OP as fuck as quickly as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hanni]

Tarfire isn't dead against combo, it can deal 2 damage to the face. Usually, this is irrelevant, and it's absolutely the first card you cut postboard, but it's not dead.

On the other hand, Tuktuk Scrapper is horrible against most of the field. Sharpshooter is bad against most of the field, too.

So I agree, which is why the list I ran at my LGS last week didn't run a toolbox. I've tweaked my list a bit, but I'll wait to write about it until the next time I play with it.

[jrw1985]

Tarfire isn't dead against combo, it can deal 2 damage to the face. Usually, this is irrelevant, and it's absolutely the first card you cut postboard, but it's not dead.

On the other hand, Tuktuk Scrapper is horrible against most of the field. Sharpshooter is bad against most of the field, too.

So I agree, which is why the list I ran at my LGS last week didn't run a toolbox. I've tweaked my list a bit, but I'll wait to write about it until the next time I play with it.

Yeah, Tuktuk is one of those cards that I consider indespensible even though it's crap. But we just get locked out so hard by Jitte and whatnot that it needs to be played. So we need to dedicate 1 slot to it even though it doesn't help us against the non-Jitte decks. It's being forced to run junk cards like that which leads Goblins players to post about fantasy cards. WILL DOMINARIA SET HAVE GOBBOS??? OOOH I CAN'T WAIT.

[jonesypunk]

I ve picked up my old friends and took them to a spin, and despite being a little poor performance dint felt terrible.

Played small tournament with 4 rounds

Round 1 - bye (don't play for a long time, and round 1 i don't play, damn)

Round 2 - lost 0-2 against UR Delver. Game 1 i tricked my opponent until round 5 that he thought i was playing Death&Taxes, even played a cavern on humans to do so, got mana flood, saw all my lands and not enough creatures!!! Game 2 - saw all my removal and almost no creatures to push damage, died because of tnn.

Round 3 - lost 1-2 against combo (Stifle Dreadnoght?!?!) With main torpor orb!!! REALLY!!! Yeah right...

Round 4 - 4c Loam, win 2-0. Game 1 my opponent mulls to 4, easy win, second game, surgical did the job, and finally ringleader and company start working.

Despite of not playing much i liked how the deck developed in games.

Im trying this ... Next week ill try again, despite of having almost 50% combo on the store...
I removed entirely krenko and siege gang, and now trying murderous redcap, i think that can make the difference, and having tarfire with legs that can become gut shots with legs can be awsome, specially with a vial at 4 for combat tricks, also maximizing the value of vials at 4.

4 lackey
1 chirurgeon
3 mogg war marshal
2 piledriver
1 stingscourger
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
3 gempalm incinerator
1 sharpshooter
4 ringleader
1 tuktuk scraper
2 murderous redcap
4 aether vial
3 tarfire

4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 cavern of souls
5 mountain
2 badlands
3 bloostained mire
2 arid mesa

SIDEBOARD
4 cabal therapy
3 surgical extraction
1 earwig squad
1 blood moon
1 stingscourger
1 tuktuk scraper
2 pyrokinesis
2 confusion in the ranks

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[egoblinsw]

I have been running 2 MD pyrokinesis for over a year, with 2 Day-Twos at SCG Opens. (11-4, 9-6). I think it's 100% correct, it blows open close games into easy wins, and let's us compete against elves, D+T, and Delver practically on it's own. My only back and forth is whether there should be a 3rd in the sideboard.

[Fourbirr]

Since the last 2 weeks, I cut a Tarfire and tried again 1 Pyrokinesis MD. After 20+ online matches, it increased quite clearly my ratio against fair match-ups like Grixis Delver / 4C Control /BUG Midrange or even Miracles.

I can really recommend it at the moment. Just like Marlock96 mentioned it, it helps us to catch up the pace, when our opponent is ahead with DRS+Delver after having forced our vial or lackey. Hence, with 30 creatures in the deck, we just don't care to lose 1 if we can kill many.

Sparksmith was quite good for me lately, too. It's strong against big creatures, but I blame him to need a Warchief in play to be effective, to be vulnerable to removal, to hurt us if we are low on life. Gempalm Incinerator, on the contrary, draws us a card, kill a small/big guy and cannot be countered.

[dissy]

Fellow Chieftains,

This sunday i'am going to play a small legacy tournament (5 rounds). Last week i played a 7 round tournament with classic list white splash. It didnt feel verry good going 3-4
Especially the Krenko gets pretty underwhelming (he gets killed right away) with less hastelords and al the fatal pushes. Next tot that there aren't enough combo decks in my area to justify the white board wich is only good for combo.
Thats why i tried a different approached inspired by Fourbir and some other well known goblin players who splashed black with succes.

This is the list wich i will be playing this sunday


Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:28
1 Goblin Chirurgeon
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Mogg War Marshall
1 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Earwig Squad
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells:9
4 AEther Vial
2 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding
1 Pyrokinesis

Lands:23
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:15
2 Bloodmoon
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Earwig Squad
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Pyrokinesis

I cut the number of tarfires altough tarfire is really strong, it is not enough vs elves or grixis for example and it grows goyf.
I also cut the number of gempalm incinerators. On turn 2 it just isnt good enough to push lackey through.
Pyrikonesis on turn 2 versus elves almost seals the deal, you can wipe the board vs grixis or DenT. It can take care of bigger creatures if needed.
Also sharpshooter get's a lot better with the 2 MD pyros.
Yes its dead vs some combo decks but that is something we need to live with i guess

Another thing is Aerwig Squad main deck i think he is absolutley a bom if cast for its prowl.
- He can take care of equipments like jitte or bskill
- He can steal games vs Storm
- He makes pfire matches a lot easier if you can remove them
- He can take care of boardwipes
- He is almost insta-win vs mirracles (removing the wincons)
- He can take care of craterhoof and friends
- Versus Grixis you can remove the TNN (wich is our biggest problem vs grixis if not running pdriver
- The card is really versitile and is never bad when cast for its prowl cost, next to that its a 5-3 body wich isnt bad either
I would only bring in the other 2 from the sideboard vs combo decks like storm and lands i think

Warren Weirding
- Can always remove the creature on turn 2 whatever creature it is
- Yes i know it can be dazed wich tarfire can't on t2 but it can also take care of really scarry creatures, emrakul and friends but also creatures like KoTR, TNN etc
- Mabey 2 is to mutch but we will see
- In some situations it can provide more creatures for you by sacking your own goblin

Goblin Chirgueon over Skirk Prospector
- Without krenko and a full playset of MwM i think this is the right choice
- Also because of more fatal pushes this card can save critical creatures

2 Siegegang over 1 Siegegang and 1 Krenko
- Without white i have no place for karakas wich can save your own krenko
- If pithing needle than you still have 4 boddies
- better vs elves and it can kill delver/drs/yp and so on
- It doesnt get killed by fatal push
- Doesnt need a hastelord to be effective

Tuktuk
- He is a necessary evil, in many matchups he is dead but you can't afford to cut him in my oppinion
- I rather have tuktuk than TSH since you can copy him with Kiki and i dont have to splash green for him

Downside of this list
All the black cards increase the number of fetches needed to make sure that you have black mana in your opener after boarding, wich makes it hard to play ports in this build
next to that we have no answer to enchantments that hit the board, but i guess thats something i can live with, since we can discard them or remove them the Aerwig Squads

Than for the sideboard
Bloodmoon
Takes care of Lands, verry strong vs pile/bug decks i think i would only board in on the play on the draw it seems to slow

Faerie Macabre/Surgical
Obviously vs graveyard decks (pfire/lands/reanimator/storm/dredge etc) it also works verry well with the discard package.
They both serve the same goal. The big difference Surgical has a bit more impact, but he can get countered.
Fearie Macabre, gets around counters and is free can take out 2 targets at once. For example vs reanimator with 2 creatures in the bin.
So thats why i split those 2/2

Aerwig Squad
Just an extra answer vs combo decks

Cabal therapy/Thoughtseize
Strong vs equipment en combo decks, especially with 31 creatures (including tokens for siegegang) in the deck
Thoughtseize serves the same goal as Cabal Therapy but even stronger because it's a 100% procent hit. Both really strong in combination with the graveyard hate

Pyrikonesis
Same reason why i packed 2 maindeck

Some things i'am not sure about.

Cutting Krenko
What do you guys think of 2 Siege-Gang of Krenko and Siege-Gang in this list, and my reasoning behind this dicision

Cabal Therapy
In my honest oppinion i think this is one of the hardest cards to play in magic
What would you pick vs these decks if in opening hand or wouldnt you play it al on t1 and just play vial or lackey if possible
- Elves (do you choose the excellerator or the combo spell like NO, GSZ or something like that
- Storm (do you pick cantrips or mana excellerators or tutors)
- Sneak and Show (Do you pick cantrips or the sneak or the show it self
- Reanimator (The reanimate spells or the entomb or cantrips)
- BR reanimator (the reanimate spells mana excellerators or entomb)

Finishers
I only have 2 finishers in the deck. No piledrivers, no Krenko, no lightningcrafter combo.
Do you guys think i need a tutorable 1-of piledriver, and if so what should i cut?

I would really like to hear your guys oppinion on this list and reasoning for card choises.

Thx In Advance :)

[cheinp]

First and foremost, I don't think 2 sieges and 1 kiki jiki are better than krenko+shooter+warchief. I am not able to imagine any scenario in which I'd prefer those cards... but if you feel more confortable, test it!! I don't play any of them since long time ago. Don't play without Krenko, he is the best :D and you need a good finisher.

Pyrok is so good but it puts you in cards disadvantage... I wouldn't play around goyfs, few decks play them right now... anyway, 4/5 or 5/6 is the same threat to deal with.

I completely agree with you in how goods the earwigs are. At the beggining, I didn't play them but taking advantage of this forum I realised my mistake, you can even play 2 copies... I've been thinking to not play with piledrivers as well, but they are extremely tech against combo decks, so I'd play a single copy to be able to find it with the matron tutor, but, if you don't like it, hold this copy in the sb.

Sideb, I usually play a different mana sources commanded by ancient tombs so my side is based on it. You can keep an eye on that (in this thread) if you like to test different combinations...

Enjoy!!

[dissy]

First and foremost, I don't think 2 sieges and 1 kiki jiki are better than krenko+shooter+warchief. I am not able to imagine any scenario in which I'd prefer those cards... but if you feel more confortable, test it!! I don't play any of them since long time ago. Don't play without Krenko, he is the best :D and you need a good finisher.

Pyrok is so good but it puts you in cards disadvantage... I wouldn't play around goyfs, few decks play them right now... anyway, 4/5 or 5/6 is the same threat to deal with.

I completely agree with you in how goods the earwigs are. At the beggining, I didn't play them but taking advantage of this forum I realised my mistake, you can even play 2 copies... I've been thinking to not play with piledrivers as well, but they are extremely tech against combo decks, so I'd play a single copy to be able to find it with the matron tutor, but, if you don't like it, hold this copy in the sb.

Sideb, I usually play a different mana sources commanded by ancient tombs so my side is based on it. You can keep an eye on that (in this thread) if you like to test different combinations...

Enjoy!!

Thank you for your response and advise.

I like to play Kiki because it can change boardstates completely being able to copy
- Matron
- Ringleader
- Sharpshooter
- Chieftain
- Tuktuk
- Siege-gang

I dont play around goyf i jump block it for days just like gurmag angler.
But i like the fact pyro can take out multiple targets, and we are still one of the biggest card advantage decks out there even with the pyro's main.

Like some other said before
T1-get your lackey/vial countered (if your t1 play doenst get countered your completlein the drivers seat
T2-Pyro there board multiple elves, multiple creatures from delver decks) feels really really strong

I would definitley prefer Siege-gang over Krenko in a couple of situations
- D&T, they play 3 karakas 4 stp, revoker etc. If siege-gang gets removed or deactived he atleast leaves 3 bodies
- Elves its sac ability makes it possible to kill combo elf pieces
- Grixis, he can kill delver/DRS/YP Doesnt get killed by fatal push. If bolted he leaves 3 bodies on the field
- Blade decks, you can use his sac ability to make sure jitte doesnt get counters
I think Krenko is better in MU wich you want to finish fast like combo. But for that i have my sideboard.

If you have black i don't think someone could justify not playing Aerwig Squad :)


I really like your thoughts about the piledriver, iam really searching for a slot for him. But not sure what to cut:(.

[Marlock96]

Fellow Chieftains,

This sunday i'am going to play a small legacy tournament (5 rounds). Last week i played a 7 round tournament with classic list white splash. It didnt feel verry good going 3-4
Especially the Krenko gets pretty underwhelming (he gets killed right away) with less hastelords and al the fatal pushes. Next tot that there aren't enough combo decks in my area to justify the white board wich is only good for combo.
Thats why i tried a different approached inspired by Fourbir and some other well known goblin players who splashed black with succes.

This is the list wich i will be playing this sunday


Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:28
1 Goblin Chirurgeon
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Mogg War Marshall
1 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Earwig Squad
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells:9
4 AEther Vial
2 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding
1 Pyrokinesis

Lands:23
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:15
2 Bloodmoon
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Earwig Squad
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Pyrokinesis

I cut the number of tarfires altough tarfire is really strong, it is not enough vs elves or grixis for example and it grows goyf.
I also cut the number of gempalm incinerators. On turn 2 it just isnt good enough to push lackey through.
Pyrikonesis on turn 2 versus elves almost seals the deal, you can wipe the board vs grixis or DenT. It can take care of bigger creatures if needed.
Also sharpshooter get's a lot better with the 2 MD pyros.
Yes its dead vs some combo decks but that is something we need to live with i guess

Another thing is Aerwig Squad main deck i think he is absolutley a bom if cast for its prowl.
- He can take care of equipments like jitte or bskill
- He can steal games vs Storm
- He makes pfire matches a lot easier if you can remove them
- He can take care of boardwipes
- He is almost insta-win vs mirracles (removing the wincons)
- He can take care of craterhoof and friends
- Versus Grixis you can remove the TNN (wich is our biggest problem vs grixis if not running pdriver
- The card is really versitile and is never bad when cast for its prowl cost, next to that its a 5-3 body wich isnt bad either
I would only bring in the other 2 from the sideboard vs combo decks like storm and lands i think

Warren Weirding
- Can always remove the creature on turn 2 whatever creature it is
- Yes i know it can be dazed wich tarfire can't on t2 but it can also take care of really scarry creatures, emrakul and friends but also creatures like KoTR, TNN etc
- Mabey 2 is to mutch but we will see
- In some situations it can provide more creatures for you by sacking your own goblin

Goblin Chirgueon over Skirk Prospector
- Without krenko and a full playset of MwM i think this is the right choice
- Also because of more fatal pushes this card can save critical creatures

2 Siegegang over 1 Siegegang and 1 Krenko
- Without white i have no place for karakas wich can save your own krenko
- If pithing needle than you still have 4 boddies
- better vs elves and it can kill delver/drs/yp and so on
- It doesnt get killed by fatal push
- Doesnt need a hastelord to be effective

Tuktuk
- He is a necessary evil, in many matchups he is dead but you can't afford to cut him in my oppinion
- I rather have tuktuk than TSH since you can copy him with Kiki and i dont have to splash green for him

Downside of this list
All the black cards increase the number of fetches needed to make sure that you have black mana in your opener after boarding, wich makes it hard to play ports in this build
next to that we have no answer to enchantments that hit the board, but i guess thats something i can live with, since we can discard them or remove them the Aerwig Squads

Than for the sideboard
Bloodmoon
Takes care of Lands, verry strong vs pile/bug decks i think i would only board in on the play on the draw it seems to slow

Faerie Macabre/Surgical
Obviously vs graveyard decks (pfire/lands/reanimator/storm/dredge etc) it also works verry well with the discard package.
They both serve the same goal. The big difference Surgical has a bit more impact, but he can get countered.
Fearie Macabre, gets around counters and is free can take out 2 targets at once. For example vs reanimator with 2 creatures in the bin.
So thats why i split those 2/2

Aerwig Squad
Just an extra answer vs combo decks

Cabal therapy/Thoughtseize
Strong vs equipment en combo decks, especially with 31 creatures (including tokens for siegegang) in the deck
Thoughtseize serves the same goal as Cabal Therapy but even stronger because it's a 100% procent hit. Both really strong in combination with the graveyard hate

Pyrikonesis
Same reason why i packed 2 maindeck

Some things i'am not sure about.

Cutting Krenko
What do you guys think of 2 Siege-Gang of Krenko and Siege-Gang in this list, and my reasoning behind this dicision

Cabal Therapy
In my honest oppinion i think this is one of the hardest cards to play in magic
What would you pick vs these decks if in opening hand or wouldnt you play it al on t1 and just play vial or lackey if possible
- Elves (do you choose the excellerator or the combo spell like NO, GSZ or something like that
- Storm (do you pick cantrips or mana excellerators or tutors)
- Sneak and Show (Do you pick cantrips or the sneak or the show it self
- Reanimator (The reanimate spells or the entomb or cantrips)
- BR reanimator (the reanimate spells mana excellerators or entomb)

Finishers
I only have 2 finishers in the deck. No piledrivers, no Krenko, no lightningcrafter combo.
Do you guys think i need a tutorable 1-of piledriver, and if so what should i cut?

I would really like to hear your guys oppinion on this list and reasoning for card choises.

Thx In Advance :)

This list fits your style of playing the deck, no one can say if it's actually better or worse than any other list.
But you could accept some suggestions maybe (:
1 Personally, i would not recommend leaving home without the full set of warchief: they provide the best type of advantage we want.
2 Your list is full of removal, i'd try to cut the scrapper for more toolbox/stability(4th warchief) since no equipments will be attached to creatures (you're playing 2 weirdings/2 pyrokinesis, are you really afraid of stonforge mystic? :P)
3 I really love ports, your deck doesn't seem an aggro version to me, so why not give a try to some ports? They give you extra t2 "drops" and can be nasty in dead turns.
4 too much aerwig squads in SB/MD

I like playing a different list of the deck so I may not be the best advisor, but hope that it could help anyway (:

[menph]

@dissy I like to play 2 SGC over 1-1 split with krenko. He is the best finisher we have imho.

Right now the meta is very grindy with a lot of grixis control/4c pile everywhere, also jund is well played in my local meta. In this kind of MU I don't like to rely on activations or multiple cards to gain an advantage because many times I have empty board with very full graveyard (also opponents) and every creature that touches the ground die very fast tnx to bolt, push, snappy, both Lili, punishing fire, toxic deluge, golgari charm, plague etc. So it's very hard to make many tokens with krenko.
Similarly I often find myself without juicy target for Kiki or nothing to champion with crafter. SGC do his job immediately and give us also removals, he's great! Kiki is better than krenko in this kind of situation tnx to his build-in haste.

I also would like to try 1-2 copies of rabblemaster because it will be a great top deck or matron target in grindy MU.

On the other hand, the "K" bosses are the best for steal hard games, especially when you have to face creatures hard to deal with. Make thousand of tokens or copying sharpshooter to throw twice damage over huge blockers are our only way to win sometimes.
So it's definitely a meta choice in my opinion.
I like to have at least one piledriver for his Blu protection against TNN and for every situation where we have to race as fast as we can. In the worst scenario he will eat a removal or kill a chump-blocker.

I won't like to have less than 4 tarfire personally (also because i'm mono R), anyway you have already a lot of removals.

Even if I'm playing mono red fetch-less list, Black splash is very strong (EWsquad and edict) but I think top deck manipulation (mirri's guile and sylvan library) could be also very powerful in actual grindy meta. I don't have any dual atm but I think green is a strong choice now.



*i did some minor edit to fix cellphone typing*

[1GoblinLackey]

@dissy

I agree with you that the black splash is very powerful. 3 Earwigs is probably excessive unless you have a ton of ANT and Miracles in your area though. Squad's great in a lot of matchups, but you only really want more than 1 those in particular. Your board also looks a little weak to some of the fair decks, I feel like some Relics of Progenitus or maybe Sparksmith could be worth adding. With so many blacks sources, you can also extremely comfortably play K command, which is an absolute house and really insulates against both equipment and hymn decks by recurring discarded/dead/countered goblins.

If you want to play ports in a black splash list, I think having 9 black sources is acceptable. I play 24 lands right now in order to play the full 4 ports and avoid mana screw, but if you want to stick with 23, you could try this:


6 Fetches
4 Caverns
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
3 Port

A major concern I have with your list is that it's pretty reactive. You're gonna have a hard time pressuring the opponent in a meaningful way without any piledrivers or other beaters. Ports would help alleviate this problem. Your curve is also really high. There's gonna be a notable number of hands where you're staring at a bunch of uncastable 5 drops. 3 Finishers + Squad seems like just too many.

@the discussion on finishers: I am really unsure whether Siege Gang or Krenko is better, because they die to different things. Siege gang dodges fatal push, but dies to K command, forked bolt, punishing fire, and so on. He's also worse against Stifle, since stifiling a Krenko trigger is merely delaying the inevitable. 5 is also way way more than 4. Ticking a vial to 5 means it's dead for the rest of the game, whereas 4 is right where we want to be to drop ringleaders anyway. All this being said, siege gang is really helpful for killing planeswalkers, getting around ensnaring bridge, generally annihilating D&T and Elves. It's quite a tough call. I think I'm gonna try to just play both for awhile. They're really good in topdecks, and have giant board impacts. I'm playing 24 lands, so a 5 drop isn't as big a deal as I normally think it is.

Piledriver is also really really good right now guys. Lotta decks with creature bases that are 4x drs then all blue creatures (pile in particular).

For the record, I've done some testing with a bunch of unconventional card choices over the last months. I've tested Loam + K command as engines in the goblins shell, Mother of Runes, and Deathrite Shaman. The Loam deck had the problem of losing really hard to DRS, which is not a problem we want to be having. Mom was medium, Chirurgeon is better I think. Deathrite had the most potential, the card is just dumb powerful. Having access to maindeck gravehate and being able to nullify other DRS is really sweet. Not currently doing any testing on that front, but if someone's feeling adventurous, I'd try it out.

EDIT: Some therapy strategy points. Dissy brings up what to name against various combo decks. Normally, the idea with therapy is "name what what you can't beat", and this bears out in some of the matchups. T1 on the play against Elves I might be tempted to name deathrite, gsz, or symbiote, those are their best cards. However, chances are that you kept a hand against elves that has some kind of removal, so I default to naming natural order. Natural order is how we lose against elves almost every time. The only time this might change would be if I think they have an answer to a critical card in my hand (abrupt decay for a sharpshooter or needle). On the draw, I def name natural order to make sure I don't just die on t3.

Sneak and Show I default to Show and Tell, especially with the Omniscience versions being more popular nowadays. Chances are you can strand the payoff cards more than enablers. Surgical is also kinda nice against them if you're bringing in a ton of discard spells, since if you surgical the show and tells, they end up with a bunch of dead draws in their deck.

Against Storm I name LED, Brainstorm, or Dark Ritual on the play, Infernal Tutor on the draw.

Reanimator: Both versions I target the entombs. They only have 4 entombs and 4 ways to discard (faithless or careful study), and they have 12 reanimation spells (reanimate, exhume, animate dead). Against the blue version maybe you name brainstorm sometimes? I dunno. On the draw it's tougher. There's a pretty high chance that if they didn't cast the entomb in response to the therapy, then they don't have it, in which case I'd name the reanimate since reanimator can sometimes be really tightly strapped for mana and could be missing another mana source. If you can keep the fatties in their hand, then their deck does literal nothing.

[kombatkiwi]

@dissy

I agree with you that the black splash is very powerful. 3 Earwigs is probably excessive unless you have a ton of ANT and Miracles in your area though. Squad's great in a lot of matchups, but you only really want more than 1 those in particular. Your board also looks a little weak to some of the fair decks, I feel like some Relics of Progenitus or maybe Sparksmith could be worth adding. With so many blacks sources, you can also extremely comfortably play K command, which is an absolute house and really insulates against both equipment and hymn decks by recurring discarded/dead/countered goblins.

If you want to play ports in a black splash list, I think having 9 black sources is acceptable. I play 24 lands right now in order to play the full 4 ports and avoid mana screw, but if you want to stick with 23, you could try this:


6 Fetches
4 Caverns
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
3 Port

A major concern I have with your list is that it's pretty reactive. You're gonna have a hard time pressuring the opponent in a meaningful way without any piledrivers or other beaters. Ports would help alleviate this problem. Your curve is also really high. There's gonna be a notable number of hands where you're staring at a bunch of uncastable 5 drops. 3 Finishers + Squad seems like just too many.

@the discussion on finishers: I am really unsure whether Siege Gang or Krenko is better, because they die to different things. Siege gang dodges fatal push, but dies to K command, forked bolt, punishing fire, and so on. He's also worse against Stifle, since stifiling a Krenko trigger is merely delaying the inevitable. 5 is also way way more than 4. Ticking a vial to 5 means it's dead for the rest of the game, whereas 4 is right where we want to be to drop ringleaders anyway. All this being said, siege gang is really helpful for killing planeswalkers, getting around ensnaring bridge, generally annihilating D&T and Elves. It's quite a tough call. I think I'm gonna try to just play both for awhile. They're really good in topdecks, and have giant board impacts. I'm playing 24 lands, so a 5 drop isn't as big a deal as I normally think it is.

Piledriver is also really really good right now guys. Lotta decks with creature bases that are 4x drs then all blue creatures (pile in particular).



I play this manabase -1 fetch +1 Port and havent had too many issues with it (If you put a gun to my head and said 'Play a different mix of 23 lands' then I would use what 1GoblinLackey is suggesting).

Even though his list only has 2 Tarfires I think any 5 of Tarfire/Pyro/Weirding is probably about right.
I agree that 3 Earwig in the 75 is probably too many.
I currently play 1 Crafter 1 Kiki 1 Krenko 1 Earwig 0 SGC and I would consider cutting the Krenko for SGC, or MAYBE cutting something else for SGC but I think this is pushing the curve a bit far.
Crafter does a lot that people love Siege Gang for in terms of being able to kill a PW, or shoot down small guys, or ping over a Moat etc etc and just like Siege Gang it often leaves behind some value when it dies.

[Hanni]

Played Goblins again at my LGS last night, going 3-1 this time. I probably won't be playing Goblins again for a while, but it was definitely fun playing it two weeks in a row.

I made some tweaks to my list since last time, which felt much better.

R/b Vial Goblins

Lands (22)
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Creatures (28)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

Spells (10)
4 AEther Vial
4 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding

Sideboard (15)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

Basically, I cut 2 Goblin Chieftan for 2 more Goblin Piledriver, and I cut Krenko for the 2nd Warren Weirding.

Krenko did nothing for me last week, and wouldn't have done anything for me this week either. I cut it because I went down on hastelords, but I never missed it. I think Krenko would be solid against grindy decks that can stall out the board, like D&T and Maverick, but Goblin Ringleader just seems so much better more often.

Goblin Piledriver was great. I'm not sure why people started trimming these in the first place. The older successful lists always ran 4. In almost every game, Piledriver took my mediocre board of a few small Goblins and turned it into a serious problem that the opponent had to either deal with immediately, or lose.

The extra removal via the 2nd Weirding felt correct. I'm quite happy with this configuration at the moment.

Anyway, onto the matchups:

Round 1 vs Deathblade 2-0
He was playing the Jon Goss list. In game one, I have an unanswered Lackey that puts a Ringleader into play that hits 3 Goblins, but what ultimately won me the game was that he kept a land light hand and my double Wasteland hand blew him out. In game two, I just did what Goblins does... Tarfire killed his SFM, I put Goblins on the board, blew up a Jitte with Tutuk, and outvalued him. I killed him one turn before he could get to a hardcast Batterskull.

Round 2 vs Infect 2-1
I lose the die roll but I keep a good hand. I kill two Blighted Agents, get a board with a couple of Goblins, and Matron for a Ringleader for the the next turn. I play a Mountain instead of the Wasteland in my hand, and he EOT Crop Rotates for Inkmoth, untaps and has Invigorate + Berserk for lethal while I'm sitting on a Gempalm Incinerator (don't have enough mana to cast) and a Wasteland in hand. In game two, I have tons of removal and a pile of Goblins on board. In game three, I have a turn 1 Lackey, kill a Glistener Elf and Lackey puts a Warchief into play, next turn I play double Piledriver and threaten to put him at 1... he fetches for Savannah to Plow one of the Piledriver's, but it's too little too late. I play a Wasteland that deals with an Inkmoth Nexus, and kill him on the next turn.

Round 3 vs TES 1-2
He wins the die roll. I mull two horrible hands and keep a weak 5. He kills me on his turn 4 with a lethal Tendrils. In game two, I keep a disruption-less hand with a Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Ringleader, and 3 lands. He double Probes and fetches to put himself to 15, Lackey drops him to 14 and puts Warchief into play. Next turn I topdeck a War Marshal, play Piledriver and War Marshal, and swing for 14 for the turn 3 kill. In game three, I mulligan another two horrible hands down to 5. My blind Therapy misses, and he kills me on turn 2 with a lethal Tendrils.

Round 4 vs Metalworker Stax 2-0
I win the die roll. In game one, I have a Vial + Lackey hand that puts me way too far ahead. In game two, I keep a much slower hand and he gets an early Tabernacle to slow things down even more. I get a midgame Vial, and I'm slowly chipping away. He deals alot of damage to himself with Ancient Tombs this game. He has the board stabilized at 4 life with Crucible, Inventor's Fair, 2 Ensnaring Bridge, a Metalworker, and no cards in hand... but I EOT a Warchief, tick Vial to 4, and play both of the Tuktuks that I've been sitting on all game to blow up both Bridges, and swing for lethal.

[kombatkiwi]

He has the board stabilized at 4 life with Crucible, Inventor's Fair, 2 Ensnaring Bridge, a Metalworker, and no cards in hand... but I EOT a Warchief, tick Vial to 4, and play both of the Tuktuks that I've been sitting on all game to blow up both Bridges, and swing for lethal.

Its worth pointing out (for people that might not know) that if you vial in the 2nd scrapper in response to the trigger of the first one then they both see 2 allies and deal 2 damage each, which would have been lethal without attacking.
Obviously it was irrelevant here but what if your opponent had 3 Ensnaring Bridges? haha

Still not convinced about Piledriver but I appreciate the data.
Having a board of 'a few mediocre goblins' becomes a much less likely situation if you don't play 4 Warchief 4 Marshal.

The 'problem' (Obviously I can't say 100% whether you are right or wrong on this but this is how I see it) is that you are stuck in this logic loop where it's like:

a) 4 Piledriver is good
b) Therefore, it is good to play 4 MWM and 4 Warchief because they help to enable 4 Piledriver
c) Therefore, 4 Gempalm is good because they are good with 4 MWM

or maybe it's the other way around, for example your premise is that Gempalm is good

a) 4 Gempalm is good
b) Therefore, it is good to play 4 MWM to enable 4 Gempalm
c) Therefore, it is good to play 4 Piledriver because it's good with 4 MWM
d) Therefore, it is good to play 4 Warchief because it's good with 4 MWM and 4 Piledriver

Cutting any individual one of these cards seems bad, because they are all somewhat dependent on each other. (It results in situations like "I can't cut MWM, Gempalm will suck", "I can't cut Piledriver, it powers up MWM too much")

I agree that this set of cards has a lot of synergy between them, but in my opinion the overall combination is not as good as a build of Goblins where you cut this stack of cards almost entirely.
This is a big leap of faith I guess but IMO the reason why goblins is good is Vial/Matron/Ringleader (and probably Lackey even with DRS in the picture). You don't have to play all the other cards just because they were good in standard/extended 10+ years ago.

[Hanni]

There's no logic loop forcing me to play those cards, they're simply good cards that have great synergy together. Mogg War Marshal is fantastic for getting multiple bodies on the board cheaply, and I'm never upset to see one. Piledriver is another cheap threat that forces the opponent to have an answer. Warchief's cost reduction allows the deck to flood the board with Goblins faster and makes the deck more aggressive by giving everything haste.

I have no idea what you're on about by referencing Standard and Extended. Go look at Legacy Goblins lists from 2005 to 2010, when the deck was a force in the metagame, and you'll see the same core of Vial/Lackey/Piledriver/Gempalm/Warchief/Matron/Ringleader as 4-of's in most of those lists. I can understand trimming some Gempalm's these days because there are more removal options available, but the rest of that core hasn't changed for good reason.

I'm not saying that running situational one-of's and higher cc Goblins are bad, but I think lowering the curve and focusing on improving the consistency of the core gameplan is a better approach to building Goblins. Some may agree, many will disagree, but I'm not really here to convince anyone. I only came to share my experiences. Take from it what you will.

[PuppyWuppy]

Round 4 vs Metalworker Stax 2-0
I win the die roll. In game one, I have a Vial + Lackey hand that puts me way too far ahead. In game two, I keep a much slower hand and he gets an early Tabernacle to slow things down even more. I get a midgame Vial, and I'm slowly chipping away. He deals alot of damage to himself with Ancient Tombs this game. He has the board stabilized at 4 life with Crucible, Inventor's Fair, 2 Ensnaring Bridge, a Metalworker, and no cards in hand... but I EOT a Warchief, tick Vial to 4, and play both of the Tuktuks that I've been sitting on all game to blow up both Bridges, and swing for lethal.

The end was still hilarious. Don't forget the mistrigger with that tabernacle

[Hanni]

The end was still hilarious. Don't forget the mistrigger with that tabernacle

We both missed one Tabernacle trigger that game, but mine was fairly low impact. I lost two 1/1 tokens, and he had 2 Bridges with no cards in hand at that point anyway. Regardless, it was a missplay on my part, not going to deny that.

[Marlock96]

Played Goblins again at my LGS last night, going 3-1 this time. I probably won't be playing Goblins again for a while, but it was definitely fun playing it two weeks in a row.

I made some tweaks to my list since last time, which felt much better.

R/b Vial Goblins

Lands (22)
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Creatures (28)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

Spells (10)
4 AEther Vial
4 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding

Sideboard (15)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

Basically, I cut 2 Goblin Chieftan for 2 more Goblin Piledriver, and I cut Krenko for the 2nd Warren Weirding.

Krenko did nothing for me last week, and wouldn't have done anything for me this week either. I cut it because I went down on hastelords, but I never missed it. I think Krenko would be solid against grindy decks that can stall out the board, like D&T and Maverick, but Goblin Ringleader just seems so much better more often.

Goblin Piledriver was great. I'm not sure why people started trimming these in the first place. The older successful lists always ran 4. In almost every game, Piledriver took my mediocre board of a few small Goblins and turned it into a serious problem that the opponent had to either deal with immediately, or lose.

The extra removal via the 2nd Weirding felt correct. I'm quite happy with this configuration at the moment.

Anyway, onto the matchups:

Round 1 vs Deathblade 2-0
He was playing the Jon Goss list. In game one, I have an unanswered Lackey that puts a Ringleader into play that hits 3 Goblins, but what ultimately won me the game was that he kept a land light hand and my double Wasteland hand blew him out. In game two, I just did what Goblins does... Tarfire killed his SFM, I put Goblins on the board, blew up a Jitte with Tutuk, and outvalued him. I killed him one turn before he could get to a hardcast Batterskull.

Round 2 vs Infect 2-1
I lose the die roll but I keep a good hand. I kill two Blighted Agents, get a board with a couple of Goblins, and Matron for a Ringleader for the the next turn. I play a Mountain instead of the Wasteland in my hand, and he EOT Crop Rotates for Inkmoth, untaps and has Invigorate + Berserk for lethal while I'm sitting on a Gempalm Incinerator (don't have enough mana to cast) and a Wasteland in hand. In game two, I have tons of removal and a pile of Goblins on board. In game three, I have a turn 1 Lackey, kill a Glistener Elf and Lackey puts a Warchief into play, next turn I play double Piledriver and threaten to put him at 1... he fetches for Savannah to Plow one of the Piledriver's, but it's too little too late. I play a Wasteland that deals with an Inkmoth Nexus, and kill him on the next turn.

Round 3 vs TES 1-2
He wins the die roll. I mull two horrible hands and keep a weak 5. He kills me on his turn 4 with a lethal Tendrils. In game two, I keep a disruption-less hand with a Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Ringleader, and 3 lands. He double Probes and fetches to put himself to 15, Lackey drops him to 14 and puts Warchief into play. Next turn I topdeck a War Marshal, play Piledriver and War Marshal, and swing for 14 for the turn 3 kill. In game three, I mulligan another two horrible hands down to 5. My blind Therapy misses, and he kills me on turn 2 with a lethal Tendrils.

Round 4 vs Metalworker Stax 2-0
I win the die roll. In game one, I have a Vial + Lackey hand that puts me way too far ahead. In game two, I keep a much slower hand and he gets an early Tabernacle to slow things down even more. I get a midgame Vial, and I'm slowly chipping away. He deals alot of damage to himself with Ancient Tombs this game. He has the board stabilized at 4 life with Crucible, Inventor's Fair, 2 Ensnaring Bridge, a Metalworker, and no cards in hand... but I EOT a Warchief, tick Vial to 4, and play both of the Tuktuks tha I've been sitting on all game to blow up both Bridges, and swing for lethal.

This is probably the most solid list to deal with creatures-based decks, but you istantly lose the game by any artifact or enchantment card that doesn't allow you to attack your opponent. You should run one shooter/siege-gang in MD, you won't concede if an opponent casts moat/ensnaring bridge at least :)
Same thing for stingscourger, how do you deal with reanimator?
i mean, sideboard is ok, but having no toolboxes makes you lose every "strange" matchup.

[Hanni]

This is probably the most solid list to deal with creatures-based decks, but you istantly lose the game by any artifact or enchantment card that doesn't allow you to attack your opponent. You should run one shooter/siege-gang in MD, you won't concede if an opponent casts moat/ensnaring bridge at least :)
Same thing for stingscourger, how do you deal with reanimator?
i mean, sideboard is ok, but having no toolboxes makes you lose every "strange" matchup.

If my opponent resolves an Ensnaring Bridge and can dump their hand so that I cannot attack with 1/x Goblins, then I lose game one. How likely am I to run into decks with MD Ensnaring Bridge in game one? I can beat decks with other artifacts without needing to remove them; equipment isn't a problem if my opponent has no creatures, not enough mana, or I kill them before it has a huge impact. How many matchups have relevant MD artifacts? Tuktuk is an awful creature in most matchups.

I agree, I'm completely cold to resolved enchantments that prevent me from doing anything, like Moat, Energy Field + Rest in Peace, Solitary Confinement, etc. How likely am I to run into those? Is it worth it to contort my deck to be able to deal with less than 1% of the meta?

Warren Weirding is a little bit worse against Reanimator than Stingscourger, but it's much better against everything else. I'd rather play Weirding maindeck and Stingscourger sideboard.

Losing the toolbox hurts a few matchups, but dramatically improves everything else. The toolbox approach isn't necessarily wrong, but most people go way too overboard on the 1-of's. Personally, I'm satisfied with my approach, but I don't expect everyone else to agree with it.

[jrw1985]

R/b Vial Goblins

Lands (22)
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Creatures (28)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

Spells (10)
4 AEther Vial
4 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding

Sideboard (15)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger


Honestly, I haven't tested it, but I love the idea behind this list. This list is fucking great. You just cut all the bullshit.
Cavern- gone
Port- gone
Toolbox- gone
Fatties- gone
Tricks- gone

How do you beat combo G1? You don't, just like every other Goblins build. How do you beat combo G2? Discard. What anti-combo strategy is best against all combo in general? Discard. Easy. Straightforward.

2 Warren Weirding = awesome. Kills all the fatties. Kills all the TNN. Kills all the equipped dudes.

This list will obviously out-grind every fair deck in the format.... I mean just look at the top decklists right now....

Grixis Pyromancer - Out grind
Eldrazi - Out grind
4c Control - Out grind
Death and Taxes - Out grind
DeathBlade - Out grind
Ad Nauseam Tendrils - Lose
Elves - Toss up
UR Burn - Out grind
Team America - Out grind
BUG Control - Out grind
Lands - Out grind
Dragon Stompy - Out grind
Sneak Attack - Lose
Blade Control - Out grind
Dark Depths - Lose
Berserk Stompy - Out grind
Aggro Loam - Out grind
Miracle Control - Out grind
Dredge - Who?
BR Reanimator - Lose

I honestly think your list is well positioned to take on the format. It will lose to combo, but we always lose to combo anyway.

Running a ton of fetchlands means you will have the B mana when you need it. They allow you to completely ignore your opponents' Wastes.

Skipping Cavern and running fetchlands opens you to FoW and Stifle, but who cares? FoW normally hits Vial T1 anyway and Stifel has plenty of ETB triggers to hit so its not like it was a dead draw without Fetches to target. So you have nominal downside there but you become considerably more consistent for building your manabase this way.

I would absolutely try this list at a tournament sometime.

[dissy]

Honestly, I haven't tested it, but I love the idea behind this list. This list is fucking great. You just cut all the bullshit.
Cavern- gone
Port- gone
Toolbox- gone
Fatties- gone
Tricks- gone

How do you beat combo G1? You don't, just like every other Goblins build. How do you beat combo G2? Discard. What anti-combo strategy is best against all combo in general? Discard. Easy. Straightforward.

2 Warren Weirding = awesome. Kills all the fatties. Kills all the TNN. Kills all the equipped dudes.

This list will obviously out-grind every fair deck in the format.... I mean just look at the top decklists right now....

Grixis Pyromancer - Out grind
Eldrazi - Out grind
4c Control - Out grind
Death and Taxes - Out grind
DeathBlade - Out grind
Ad Nauseam Tendrils - Lose
Elves - Toss up
UR Burn - Out grind
Team America - Out grind
BUG Control - Out grind
Lands - Out grind
Dragon Stompy - Out grind
Sneak Attack - Lose
Blade Control - Out grind
Dark Depths - Lose
Berserk Stompy - Out grind
Aggro Loam - Out grind
Miracle Control - Out grind
Dredge - Who?
BR Reanimator - Lose

I honestly think your list is well positioned to take on the format. It will lose to combo, but we always lose to combo anyway.

Running a ton of fetchlands means you will have the B mana when you need it. They allow you to completely ignore your opponents' Wastes.

Skipping Cavern and running fetchlands opens you to FoW and Stifle, but who cares? FoW normally hits Vial T1 anyway and Stifel has plenty of ETB triggers to hit so its not like it was a dead draw without Fetches to target. So you have nominal downside there but you become considerably more consistent for building your manabase this way.

I would absolutely try this list at a tournament sometime.I do like the list as wel, only change i would make is adding 1 SGC. Wich is absolutley devestating in this build.
You can ad a SGC as a card #61 i suppose because of your number of warchief and unfuckable mana-base i dont see any problems. You might switch 1 tarfire for a pyrokines because of al the 1/2 toughnes creatures in the meta.


About the mana base i Think this list needs ports. Aggro the shit out of your opponent and dont allow them to cast stuf sounds good to me. Not playing cavern is a budget reason i Guess??.

Sweet list iam going of my toolbox list, and Just going to aggro the fuck out of my opponent like jrw said.
Even vs a turn 3 or 4 combo deck we have a chance. And there arent many turn 2 combo decks. Except for reanimator strategies

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[Hanni]

Not running Cavern or Port are not budget decisions. Both lands expose me to opposing Wasteland's, and the colorless from Port reduces the amount of red mana sources.

I don't need Port as a two mana play when I have 10 2cc spells (14 if you count Gempalm). There are times when Port would be great, but those usually involve an AEther Vial.

There are a couple of matchups where Cavern of Souls is great. Basically, matchups with countermagic and no Wasteland; Miracles, Food Chain, Czech Pile, Stoneblade, Infect, Sneak Show, UB Reanimator. However, many of those are already good matchups, and there are way more matchups where the opponent has Wasteland.

On the other hand, having 16 sources of basic Mountain allows me to consistently develop my manabase, regardless if the opponent has Wasteland or not. Developing our mana is extremely important. Our curve is much higher than most of the rest of the format, so it is imperative that we be resilient to Wasteland.

The extra red sources makes casting multiple Goblins much more consistent during the midgame. I almost always have double red, and even triple red for the times when I want to play all of the Goblins I drew off of a Ringleader.

Having 12 black sources makes Weirding more reliable, as well as the postboard discard plan.

TL;DR Cavern and Port makes the manabase vulnerable to opposing Wasteland for not enough benefit. Most of the matchups where Cavern is good are already great matchups. Having more black sources and basic mountains makes the manabase more consistent.

[Marlock96]

Not running Cavern or Port are not budget decisions. Both lands expose me to opposing Wasteland's, and the colorless from Port reduces the amount of red mana sources.

I don't need Port as a two mana play when I have 10 2cc spells (14 if you count Gempalm). There are times when Port would be great, but those usually involve an AEther Vial.

There are a couple of matchups where Cavern of Souls is great. Basically, matchups with countermagic and no Wasteland; Miracles, Food Chain, Czech Pile, Stoneblade, Infect, Sneak Show, UB Reanimator. However, many of those are already good matchups, and there are way more matchups where the opponent has Wasteland.

On the other hand, having 16 sources of basic Mountain allows me to consistently develop my manabase, regardless if the opponent has Wasteland or not. Developing our mana is extremely important. Our curve is much higher than most of the rest of the format, so it is imperative that we be resilient to Wasteland.

The extra red sources makes casting multiple Goblins much more consistent during the midgame. I almost always have double red, and even triple red for the times when I want to play all of the Goblins I drew off of a Ringleader.

Having 12 black sources makes Weirding more reliable, as well as the postboard discard plan.

TL;DR Cavern and Port makes the manabase vulnerable to opposing Wasteland for not enough benefit. Most of the matchups where Cavern is good are already great matchups. Having more black sources and basic mountains makes the manabase more consistent.
Don't really know how you guys play the deck, but cavern is a MUST in this deck.
If you don't have a vial what are you going to do? Play your ringleader at turn five to avoid daze? And if it gets forced?
Be serious, cavern allows you playing your creatures safely. It shouldn't be cut for any reason, especially when blue is the most played color in the format. Seems like a sort of madness to me, got too many matrons forced looking for a freaking cavern in too many games. (:

[dissy]

Don't really know how you guys play the deck, but cavern is a MUST in this deck.
If you don't have a vial what are you going to do? Play your ringleader at turn five to avoid daze? And if it gets forced?
Be serious, cavern allows you playing your creatures safely. It shouldn't be cut for any reason, especially when blue is the most played color in the format. Seems like a sort of madness to me, got too many matrons forced looking for a freaking cavern in too many games. (:Amen to that i never leave home without them

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[1GoblinLackey]

Yeah I dunno why people are suggesting that we can just cut both caverns and ports and be okay. Good luck beating a tempo deck when you can’t cast anything on curve. Our traditional strengths against control decks also gets diminished greatly when cards like Fow and Counterspell are good against us. We can outgrind most fair decks, but that’s only if our stuff actually resolves in the first place.

Also, we *cannot* outgrind lands. Nothing in the format can without stuff like surgical/relic.

[Hanni]

Don't really know how you guys play the deck, but cavern is a MUST in this deck.
If you don't have a vial what are you going to do? Play your ringleader at turn five to avoid daze? And if it gets forced?
Be serious, cavern allows you playing your creatures safely. It shouldn't be cut for any reason, especially when blue is the most played color in the format. Seems like a sort of madness to me, got too many matrons forced looking for a freaking cavern in too many games. (:


If you don't have a Vial and your opponent destroys one of your lands with Wasteland, you're not playing your Ringleader until turn 5 anyway. Chances are pretty high that if the opponent has Daze, they're using it way before you cast a Ringleader.

Wasteland is a bigger problem for Goblins than Force of Will is. Most opponent's are cutting their Force of Will's postboard anyway.

Regardless, to each his own.

[Hanni]

Yeah I dunno why people are suggesting that we can just cut both caverns and ports and be okay. Good luck beating a tempo deck when you can’t cast anything on curve. Our traditional strengths against control decks also gets diminished greatly when cards like Fow and Counterspell are good against us. We can outgrind most fair decks, but that’s only if our stuff actually resolves in the first place.

Also, we *cannot* outgrind lands. Nothing in the format can without stuff like surgical/relic.

The entire point in cutting Port and Cavern is to improve matchups like tempo by making the manabase more resilient to Wasteland. It's irrelevant if your Goblins are uncounterable if you don't have enough mana to cast them. It sounds more like no one has actually tried a manabase like the one I used, and are stuck in a hivemind mentality where cards like Port and Cavern are sacred cows that cannot be touched.

There's definitely benefits to Cavern and Port in some matchups, but there's also matchups where Cavern does nothing but give the opponent a target for Wasteland.

[1GoblinLackey]

The entire point in cutting Port and Cavern is to improve matchups like tempo by making the manabase more resilient to Wasteland. It's irrelevant if your Goblins are uncounterable if you don't have enough mana to cast them. It sounds more like no one has actually tried a manabase like the one I used, and are stuck in a hivemind mentality where cards like Port and Cavern are sacred cows that cannot be touched.

There's definitely benefits to Cavern and Port in some matchups, but there's also matchups where Cavern does nothing but give the opponent a target for Wasteland.

I definitely hate losing to wasteland in my mono red deck, but my solution to this thus far has just to play more lands. I’ve tried cavernless and portless builds when I was first building the deck a few years ago. Portless I think is reasonable, Sandro’s consistent results without any ports speaks to this, and I’ve played portless lists I’ve liked before. . However, win results just will tick up against the blue decks with a set of caverns. It particularly helps in game 1 situations where you cavern out a lackey and then there’s a decent shot they just die staring at a Fow. I can see 3 caverns being better than 4 in some situations, perhaps 4 tarfire builds with ports should only play 3.

If you want to build a manabase that doesn’t have cavern or port, you’ll be more consistent than the conventional mana, but markedly less powerful. Unfortunately, goblins right now lacks both power and consistency.

[jrw1985]

The entire point in cutting Port and Cavern is to improve matchups like tempo by making the manabase more resilient to Wasteland. It's irrelevant if your Goblins are uncounterable if you don't have enough mana to cast them. It sounds more like no one has actually tried a manabase like the one I used, and are stuck in a hivemind mentality where cards like Port and Cavern are sacred cows that cannot be touched.

There's definitely benefits to Cavern and Port in some matchups, but there's also matchups where Cavern does nothing but give the opponent a target for Wasteland.

Folks seem to have forgotten than Goblins was great against FoW long before Cavern was printed.

[dissy]

Folks seem to have forgotten than Goblins was great against FoW long before Cavern was printed.True that but i Guess that was in a time were DRS and Stoneforge didnt exist
. That in my oppinion was the reason why goblins was great in that aera;) if they ever ban DRS (for being the best planeswalker out there, wich sounds reasonable to me) Goblins will rule again.


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[menph]

True that but i Guess that was in a time were DRS and Stoneforge didnt exist

Exactly, when lackey was still able to connect

[Hanni]

Exactly, when lackey was still able to connect

Goblins has also upgraded from Mogg Fanatic to Tarfire since then. DRS is certainly a roadblock in connecting with Lackey on the play, but there were tons of situations where you couldn't get in with a turn 1 Lackey on the draw... namely, a turn 2 Tarmogoyf. I really don't think DRS is solely responsible for why Goblins is no longer a force in the meta. Honestly, I'd argue that the vast improvements to combo decks over the last 8 years is a much bigger reason.

[Marlock96]

If you don't have a Vial and your opponent destroys one of your lands with Wasteland, you're not playing your Ringleader until turn 5 anyway. Chances are pretty high that if the opponent has Daze, they're using it way before you cast a Ringleader.

Wasteland is a bigger problem for Goblins than Force of Will is. Most opponent's are cutting their Force of Will's postboard anyway.

Regardless, to each his own.

4 wastes
4 caverns
15 red sources (fetches/mountains)
Do you really think that it's not solid enough?
I think that it's unbreakable :O

[Marlock96]

Goblins has also upgraded from Mogg Fanatic to Tarfire since then. DRS is certainly a roadblock in connecting with Lackey on the play, but there were tons of situations where you couldn't get in with a turn 1 Lackey on the draw... namely, a turn 2 Tarmogoyf. I really don't think DRS is solely responsible for why Goblins is no longer a force in the meta. Honestly, I'd argue that the vast improvements to combo decks over the last 8 years is a much bigger reason.

It's the only creature in the format who has body 2 at cc1; and makes too much advantage ramping mana.
In a time where shaman did not exist, players had to play noble hierarch to speed up their plays. And imagine this scenario: are you really going to sacrifice your hierarch to prevent a T1 lackey?

So yeah, DRS is probably the reason why goblins is no longer a force in the meta. (Miracles was an easy matchup, terminus wasn't a problem we all know that)

[dissy]

Is no one playing winstagators anymore by the way?


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[1GoblinLackey]

FoW is way less an issue for us than daze without caverns. The tempo decks have become so blindingly efficient nowadays (largely with DRS, but Angler is another symbol of this) that the drawback of daze barely matters for them. 2008 Canadian Threshold is not what we’re dealing with here. We’re the oldest deck in the format by a pretty large margin, and we just haven’t had an efficient straight upgrade to the deck in forever.

If you want to build a Portless and Cavernless manabase, take a look at some of the old lists from 2007-2011. You see a lot of maindeck stp and a heavy white splash, maybe that’s worth exploring again. I think staying mono red will just make us too weak on a sheer power-level basis.

[mistercakes]

Is no one playing winstagators anymore by the way?


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i still like instigator lists, but i haven't played goblins for a while. tend to play R with plateaus for sb, along with wasteland and pendelhaven. no ports in my lists. (although you could try to be greedy. tbh i haven't played it since czech pile started seeing playing. not sure how the deck would be now.

it might make more sense to play it with black for kologhan's command. i saw someone post it earlier either on here or facebook.

[Kodieyost]

What’s up everyone, new to the goblins deck. Haven’t as of yet gotten to play with the deck, the legacy tournament I play in is in Thursday’s so that’s when I’ll be taking this for a run.

I’ve been on Spanish Inquisition for the last 3-4 months, to pretty great success (surprising, given the field consists of almost exclusively t1 decks - 10-4 and 2 intentional draws when undefeated in final round to split prizes.

I’m looking to change things up and jam a creature deck, I’ll likely play a Classic list (lot of grindy decks around) - have we made any new leaps forward in the last year or two?

[jrw1985]

What’s up everyone, new to the goblins deck. Haven’t as of yet gotten to play with the deck, the legacy tournament I play in is in Thursday’s so that’s when I’ll be taking this for a run.

I’ve been on Spanish Inquisition for the last 3-4 months, to pretty great success (surprising, given the field consists of almost exclusively t1 decks - 10-4 and 2 intentional draws when undefeated in final round to split prizes.

I’m looking to change things up and jam a creature deck, I’ll likely play a Classic list (lot of grindy decks around) - have we made any new leaps forward in the last year or two?

New Leaps Forward? Ummmm.... no. There just hasn't been any printings to revitalize the lists. Something classic and consistent will be your best bet.

I would recommend this super grindy decklist hanni posted a few days ago....

R/b Vial Goblins

Lands (22)
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Creatures (28)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

Spells (10)
4 AEther Vial
4 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding

Sideboard (15)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

[Quackers]

Ran Hanni's list at a 4 round swiss the other night.

Only thing I changed was -1 mwm +1 seige gang which felt right since I landed it a few times off lackey and got it late game where mwm would have had a lot smaller impact.

R1 i played against a buddy of mine I've been trying to convince him to brew something with worldgorger dragon. So he did. Tinfins worldgorger combo.
Lost 1-2
G1 I won because I pressured him and then he fizzled going for the combo and only able to draw once with grissel and not finding more action from there. In the sideboarded games I didn't see any hand hate or surgicals. Mulled down to 4 game 3 to try and find something to interact and it was just abysmal.
R2 vs Rug Delver
Won 2-0
G1 he didn't seem to have any dazes and he didn't stifle my lands. He deployed a T2 goose while I head a board of a couple 1/1s, warchief, and piledriver. He killed 2 piledrivers that game, I drew 3. I just attacked into his blockers and killed the delvers and I had him quickly dead.
G2 I blood moon t3 after he stifles my t2 mwm. then I kill his delver and his goyf and surgical his bolts to which he scoops.
R3 vs Grixis Control
Win 2-1
Killed 4 TNN in the 3 games which felt really good. I hated that I fueled his DRS with my fetches. all the removal felt really nice here. Stingscourger bouncing tasigur gave me a couple turns to build my board one game. And then the last game I blood mooned him out. I ran into the awkward situation on T3 where I had Gempalm, Warren Weirding, and blood moon, MWM in hand and only 1 goblin on the board staring down DRS and TNN. I didn't want to jam blood moon even though he was tapped down because I wanted to be able to cast my warren weirding to take care of his true name. I ended up putting out MWM, and on his turn he jammed another TNN, but since I had 4 land I got to cycle gempalm to kill drs and then WW to make him sac 1 of his true name. Ended up winning that game when I jammed the blood moon on T5, luckily i had the extra 2 mana to pay for his spell pierce.
R4 vs OmniSneak
Lost 1-2
Game 1 he runs over me with sneak attacking in both fatties
Game 2 I run over him with lackey dropping in warchief and 2 piledrivers to follow it up while he fumbles with cantrips to find pyroclasm.
Game 3 I connect with lackey to put in seige gang, he answers with pyroclasm, then gets me with sneak attack and both fatties the next turn.
I landed 1 thoughtseize in game 2 in which I took his through the breach over his emrakul in hand. I believe now the emrakul was right I won that game 2 because I denied him mana with double wasteland.

All in all 2-2 record with the list breaking my positive since eternal weekend streak. I'm gonna try it a couple more times before I give my final thoughts on the whole thing and go back to my list that has done me nothing but good. I missed having ports in the combo matchups. I hated having to fetch. I like having a bunch of piledrivers that they needed to answer. I loved killing True Name.

[Hanni]

Well, your two losses were to combo, which is the elephant in the room. Figuring out how to improve those matchups, without sacrificing the fair matchups, is the key to making Goblins successful going forward.

I think the playset of Piledriver's is a step in the right direction. There are some matchups where they aren't great, but they are solid in most matchups and critical in the combo matchups.

I think my sideboard needs to be adjusted to fit 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Cabal Therapy. I'd probably cut the Stingscourger and 1 Goblin Sharpshooter to fit them in. The pinpoint discard is the best and most versatile option for addressing combo with the black splash, so a playset of each is certainly worth it.

I understand the frustration with fetching, but it's the best way to access the black mana for Weirding and discard without exposing the manabase to Wasteland.

I dislike Port in my list. I prefer the manabase stability against Wasteland decks. However, it's an unconventional way to build a Goblins manabase, so I'll just leave it at that.

[Quackers]

I liked the numbers so I could clean cut removal for discard plus surgicals.

[jonesypunk]

Played small local tournament and finally Goblins were the night menace [emoji4]

Finished 2nd place with 3-1

Round 1 - UR Delver: won 2-1
1st game on the play went pretty bad , took 2 price of progress for 6 and 8 damage, LOST
2nd Game, a bunch of basics, lots of fuel
3rd Game, lots of basics, lots of removal but no pressure, and everytime i played a creature died. Until MWM, Murderous Redcap and Ringleador come to turn the tide.

Round 2 - ANT: WON 2-1
1st game: on the play, played a mountain, and nothing else (the usual). LOST
2nd game: played mountain+lackey Go! Opponent thinking of white splash because he saw an Arid Mesa prepared for a 2nd turn win playing a infernal tutor for led. I attacked connected with lackey dropped a warchief played a MWM, fetched a badland for cabal therapy led (he had 2) and surprise surprise he had also 2 brainstorm... muahahahahaha
3rd game: weird very weird game, i had nothing because of mull to 5, my opponent also mulled to 5, i became land flood and Wasteland+Plus 2 Rishadan Port+ MWW to victory (only creature played). He never saw business spells even doing a lot of brainstorms.

Round 3 - Czech Pile: won 2-1
1st game: on the play, mull to 5, i started hard beating to 9 life, but... Hymn to Tourach twice emptying both times my refill of ringleader lost me the game. LOST
2nd game: grindy match, too grindy, half my deck in grave, until i top decked my blood moon with an empty board and my opponent tapped out.
3rd game: with 5min to play, ohhhh yeah...MWM, Ringleader and Murderous Redcap slaughtered!!! Im starting to like this guy a lot.

Round 4 - Turbo Depths: lost 1-2
1st game: on the play, mull to 5, played mountain Go. Played nothing else, Marit Lage on turn 1. Yahhh cool. LOST
2nd game: mountain+lackey Go. Opponent tries turn 1 Elesh, but i have surgical. WIN
3rd Game: Turn 1 Elesh, turn 2 Marit Lage

1) Was a great night, i won the die roll everytime and lost all the round 1 LOL.
2) lot of mulligans due to no lands or 1 land, and im playing 23 lands.
3) everytime i played Murderous Redcap changed the board state killing Shaman/Delver of Secrets, and putting my opponent in awkward position to use a removal but he would stay on table.

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[Kodieyost]

Played small local tournament and finally Goblins were the night menace [emoji4]

Finished 2nd place with 3-1

Round 1 - UR Delver: won 2-1
1st game on the play went pretty bad , took 2 price of progress for 6 and 8 damage, LOST
2nd Game, a bunch of basics, lots of fuel
3rd Game, lots of basics, lots of removal but no pressure, and everytime i played a creature died. Until MWM, Murderous Redcap and Ringleador come to turn the tide.

Round 2 - ANT: WON 2-1
1st game: on the play, played a mountain, and nothing else (the usual). LOST
2nd game: played mountain+lackey Go! Opponent thinking of white splash because he saw an Arid Mesa prepared for a 2nd turn win playing a infernal tutor for led. I attacked connected with lackey dropped a warchief played a MWM, fetched a badland for cabal therapy led (he had 2) and surprise surprise he had also 2 brainstorm... muahahahahaha
3rd game: weird very weird game, i had nothing because of mull to 5, my opponent also mulled to 5, i became land flood and Wasteland+Plus 2 Rishadan Port+ MWW to victory (only creature played). He never saw business spells even doing a lot of brainstorms.

Round 3 - Czech Pile: won 2-1
1st game: on the play, mull to 5, i started hard beating to 9 life, but... Hymn to Tourach twice emptying both times my refill of ringleader lost me the game. LOST
2nd game: grindy match, too grindy, half my deck in grave, until i top decked my blood moon with an empty board and my opponent tapped out.
3rd game: with 5min to play, ohhhh yeah...MWM, Ringleader and Murderous Redcap slaughtered!!! Im starting to like this guy a lot.

Round 4 - Turbo Depths: lost 1-2
1st game: on the play, mull to 5, played mountain Go. Played nothing else, Marit Lage on turn 1. Yahhh cool. LOST
2nd game: mountain+lackey Go. Opponent tries turn 1 Elesh, but i have surgical. WIN
3rd Game: Turn 1 Elesh, turn 2 Marit Lage

1) Was a great night, i won the die roll everytime and lost all the round 1 LOL.
2) lot of mulligans due to no lands or 1 land, and im playing 23 lands.
3) everytime i played Murderous Redcap changed the board state killing Shaman/Delver of Secrets, and putting my opponent in awkward position to use a removal but he would stay on table.

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Mind to share your list?

I’m currently jamming the list from SCG Indianapolis last year, I think I want to be on the BR version with 8 discard spells in the SB though. Do these come in against Uxx decks that ARENT Combo?

[kombatkiwi]

I think I want to be on the BR version with 8 discard spells in the SB though. Do these come in against Uxx decks that ARENT Combo?
I wouldn't normally bring discard against any deck that isn't combo. If your opponent has Bolt/Swords/Delver/DRS/Force etc then these can trade for a Thoughtseize or they can trade for a Goblin so why would you fill your deck with the one that can't be found by Ringleader? If a typical U/x deck can't be beat by grinding with Ringleader/Matron then Goblins has no place in the format anymore.

If your opponent is on a more controlling list where your own removal is basically never good (especially if they are on something like UW RIP Helm where they actually have inevitability in the matchup) then you have Goblins that are basically blanks off Ringleader anyway (WW/Tarfire etc) so boarding in discard is fine if you don't have anything else.

[1GoblinLackey]

I wouldn't normally bring discard against any deck that isn't combo. If your opponent has Bolt/Swords/Delver/DRS/Force etc then these can trade for a Thoughtseize or they can trade for a Goblin so why would you fill your deck with the one that can't be found by Ringleader? If a typical U/x deck can't be beat by grinding with Ringleader/Matron then Goblins has no place in the format anymore.

If your opponent is on a more controlling list where your own removal is basically never good (especially if they are on something like UW RIP Helm where they actually have inevitability in the matchup) then you have Goblins that are basically blanks off Ringleader anyway (WW/Tarfire etc) so boarding in discard is fine if you don't have anything else.

I think bringing in a small number of therapies (probably 2) is pretty reasonable against the UWx death/stoneblade decks. Stoneforge/equipment and TNN are really obvious names, and hitting multiples ever will probably just about win the game on the spot. Hitting snapcasters also really diminishes their ability to go toe-to-toe with you on cards. Obviously, you don't want to many because you want ringleader to be strong, but forcing them to respect the possibility of discard will help in those matchups. The fact that Therapy can be card advantage makes it soo much better than thoughtseize in these kinda matchups too. If they're straight UW stoneblade then you already want to board out some removal anyway, since the only valuable creature you can kill is Stoneforge.

[Kodieyost]

Has anyone played Therapies in the MB? I’m thinking I’d like 2 Lol

[jonesypunk]

Mind to share your list?

I’m currently jamming the list from SCG Indianapolis last year, I think I want to be on the BR version with 8 discard spells in the SB though. Do these come in against Uxx decks that ARENT Combo?My list:

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Chirurgeon
3 Mog War Marshall
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Murderous Redcap
1 Tuktuk Scraper

4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire

5 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands

Sideboard

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Earwig Squad
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scraper
1 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Confusion in the Ranks

Cabal Therapy is usually against combo (4), yet there are a few spots when they migth be usefull.

Against Stoneforge decks 2 may be a good addition to remove the equipment before entering table because you already now what to take out, and the information is very important.

Against Ux with TNN may be good 2 to slow that TNN entering in table, but just for that.

Against the mirror 2 to clean the resources brought by ringleader or by Matron to break their engine.

This seems to be fair deck spots that may be good to bring in 2 cabal therapy, but yet i havent tried, i always bring them to combo.

[kombatkiwi]

I think bringing in a small number of therapies (probably 2) is pretty reasonable against the UWx death/stoneblade decks. Stoneforge/equipment and TNN are really obvious names, and hitting multiples ever will probably just about win the game on the spot. Hitting snapcasters also really diminishes their ability to go toe-to-toe with you on cards. Obviously, you don't want to many because you want ringleader to be strong, but forcing them to respect the possibility of discard will help in those matchups. The fact that Therapy can be card advantage makes it soo much better than thoughtseize in these kinda matchups too. If they're straight UW stoneblade then you already want to board out some removal anyway, since the only valuable creature you can kill is Stoneforge.

With a black splash I like having Kolaghans Command for stoneforge matchups but in general a couple of Therapy probably isn't a bad decision either.

[menph]

Has anyone played Therapies in the MB? I’m thinking I’d like 2 LolIf I remember right Sandro was on that 1-2 years ago

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[jonesypunk]

If I remember right Sandro was on that 1-2 years ago

Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando TapatalkYes you right, Sandro did. I also did tried 2 main deck therapy, but unfortunately im not like Sandro in depths of the game, so it was a useless resource main deck most of the time, because i didn't know what to name. In sideboard for me its better because after game 1 i know what to name.
So, if you know a lot of the meta , and what cards the decks use just for 1 or 2 turn in play, main deck therapy is pretty good, but if you don't follow (like me) the meta so intensively it may be better in the sideboard.
This is just my thoughts.

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[Kodieyost]

I’m not sure if I like Kommand here, But I’m willing to test 1-2 of them to find out.

I’m going to play 2 Therapy MB and 2 SB, maybe a singleton Thoughtseize MB as well. The Card advantage with Therapy and MWM just seems OP, in two matches I tested against Belcher it was single-handedly the only way for me to win - to the extent I mulled to 4 and still won the game because I found the Therapy.

So my list so far is looking like this:

Creatures: 28
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver (lot of Delver and TNN decks in my meta)
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief
3 War Marshal
3 Gempalm (these are good against SFM right??)
1 Sharpshooter (2 elves decks regularly)
1 Siege-Gang (try to clock the non-interactive opps)

Spells: 9
4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire
2 Cabal Therapy

Lands: 23
4 Port
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern
4 Mountain (15 R sources, 9 B sources)
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained
2 Arid Mesa
1 Foothills

SB:
2 Therapy
3 Thoughtseize (is 7 too many discard?)
3 Blood Moon (this is just a house against Uxx decks right?)
2 Pyrokinesis (I feel like I want more of these TBH)
1 Stingscourger (not sure about this one)
1 Tuktuk (2-3 SFM decks, do I need 2?)
2 Mindbreak Trap (storm decks are always popular)
1 Surgical Extraction (?)

[jonesypunk]

I’m not sure if I like Kommand here, But I’m willing to test 1-2 of them to find out.

I’m going to play 2 Therapy MB and 2 SB, maybe a singleton Thoughtseize MB as well. The Card advantage with Therapy and MWM just seems OP, in two matches I tested against Belcher it was single-handedly the only way for me to win - to the extent I mulled to 4 and still won the game because I found the Therapy.

So my list so far is looking like this:

Creatures: 28
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver (lot of Delver and TNN decks in my meta)
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief
3 War Marshal
3 Gempalm (these are good against SFM right??)
1 Sharpshooter (2 elves decks regularly)
1 Siege-Gang (try to clock the non-interactive opps)

Spells: 9
4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire
2 Cabal Therapy

Lands: 23
4 Port
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern
4 Mountain (15 R sources, 9 B sources)
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained
2 Arid Mesa
1 Foothills

SB:
2 Therapy
3 Thoughtseize (is 7 too many discard?)
3 Blood Moon (this is just a house against Uxx decks right?)
2 Pyrokinesis (I feel like I want more of these TBH)
1 Stingscourger (not sure about this one)
1 Tuktuk (2-3 SFM decks, do I need 2?)
2 Mindbreak Trap (storm decks are always popular)
1 Surgical Extraction (?)

Gempalm Incinerator: is a power house in creature matchups.
Blood Moon: To powerfull to decks that run no basic lands or too few (BUG Delver, Lands,...).
Tuktuk: i prefer always to have 1 main, and 1 side, because there are always equipments, and many of the fair decks after sideboard have needle to stop our Vials.

You dont have no way to deal with grave (Bx Reanimator, Turbo Depths, Dredge).

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[Kodieyost]

Gempalm Incinerator: is a power house in creature matchups.
Blood Moon: To powerfull to decks that run no basic lands or too few (BUG Delver, Lands,...).
Tuktuk: i prefer always to have 1 main, and 1 side, because there are always equipments, and many of the fair decks after sideboard have needle to stop our Vials.

You dont have no way to deal with grave (Bx Reanimator, Turbo Depths, Dredge).

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My only answer to GY strategies is Surgical, for Reanimator I basically roll over to it - a stingscourger can potentially mop it up but there’s no way to really slam it hard without multiple Surgical, which aren’t great in many other MUs. Most of the time against Reanimator, we just lose if we don’t get their Reanimator spells out of hand ASAP or Surgical the Target.

Tuktuk is fine but outside of stoneBlade decks, no one else really runs equipment. I’m happier with it in the side against the majority of MUs, that’s just how my meta is set up.

[1GoblinLackey]

@jonesypunk nice job getting 2nd at your event! I have some doubts about redcap, but since you've had good experiences I'd like to hear more. Essentially, I'm concerned that there are just not many instances where I want redcaps in my deck as another 4 drop over something like Krenko, who will just win games by himself. Obviously, there are some benefits for Redcap: It's resistant to spot removal, and it immediately impacts the board. However, I feel like it's just too low impact for its cost. 4 mana is a lot for a shock + a resilient 2/2. Especially since you're running chirurgeon I'd want at least a 1-1 split with krenko, or perhaps lightning crafter.

Sparksmith is also a card I've become more interested in lately, since he's such a good value creature and can be very threatening with an active warchief.


@Kodieyost There's a couple things I really like about your list: 4 warchiefs, 3 war marshal, 3 gempalm. I like the maindeck therapy plan as well, I think a big portion of the matches we lose we lose because of a failure to interact.

In your manabase, I feel like 3 ports and 3 caverns is better than 4-2. Maybe just a preference thing though, I value 3 caverns pretty highly because I recall my delver matchup getting significantly better when I went from 2 to 3.

Some suggestions: To complement the black splash and maindeck therapy, why not try Grenzo, Dungeon Warden over the 4th piledriver? Grabbing therapies bottom'd by ringleader is a nice bonus, since you can just flash them back immediately. Grenzo is also sometimes just nice as a big ol' dude to drop if there's a lot of -1/-1 effects in sideboards (which there appears to be right now).

In your board: 7 discard spells could possibly be too many, but it's pretty reasonable and should make your combo matchups a lot better overall. Blood moon hasn't seemed as impressive to me as usual, I've preferred Relic of Progenitus lately (it comes in in a lot of the same matchups, and has some nice utility against Goyf decks like RUG delver, which seems to be making a comeback). Czech pile has evolved enough in its manabase that blood moon isn't lights out by a long shot, so I've liked relic to mess with DRS, Snap, and K Command in particular. All of their value generation comes from the graveyard.

2 Pyro is standard at this point, seems right to me. I'd tick your surgical number up to 2 if you shift the blood moons to relics in order to help more against Lands/Loam decks. Also has some nice potential against stuff like sneak and show, since extracting show and tell really leaves them a lot of dead draws.

Mindbreak trap is okay, but with 7 discard spells, you probably would be better served using other cards. 1 Earwig Squad would do you a lot of good for Storm specifically, and I always play a squad if I'm playing black, it's just a powerful creature against a lot of the format. Decks relying on push and decay for removal also can't kill it! Your anti-equipment package seems too light, since if a jitte gets on a TNN, you're almost stone cold dead. I'd supplement the tuktuk scrapper with an abrade or a K command. Abrade is nice to have against delver to kill just about any non-gurmag creature, while also giving you outs against a pithing needle on vial. K command goes a bit bigger and really grind like hell against the creature and control decks. It can be a liability against Daze decks though. I've also found K command to be pretty good in combo matchups where I have a specific goblin I really want to resolve (ie squad against storm, since it's a bit likely to get therapied away early on, rebuying stingscourger is valuable against reanimator/lands, and sharpshooter against Elves).

Overall, the changes I would be inclined to make to your board would be:
2 Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Earwig Squad
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Abrade/K Command
2 Surgical

Hope this is helpful feedback!


Regarding the general state of the format: How is it for us right now? Based on all the metagame data I can find, it seems exceptionally fair, but extremely saturated with Deathrites, and I feel like the Grixis Delver matchup should be something we focus on really nailing. What's our best trump moving forward? A card I keep trying to sneak into my sideboards is Minister of Pain, have yet to cast it though. I love the idea of an instant speed way (via vial of course) to nuke a delver board of Pyromancer, tokens, unflipped delvers, and TNNs. Splash damage against Elves and D&T is also quite nice, D&T especially because it dodges Mom protection AND Thalia taxes. I've had my builds develop towards manabase resiliency, mostly just by playing a full 24 lands. I just wanna be able to cast my spells and have them resolve. The plethora of discard spells has me maindecking warping wail as well, I haven't actually played my current configuration yet though, so I'm unsure how necessary that is.

[menph]

I also think Redcap is a good card right now as I wrote a couple of months ago.
Activating abilities is very hard in a meta full of spot removals and Redcap is resilient to that thanks to his etb effect. Moreover legacy is now dominated by 2 for 1 decks (4c, grixis) and Redcap is great in doing many things! Cc4 isn't a thing to underestimate, but in one single card we have:
-1x tarfire
-1x lava spike
-1x 2/2
-1x 1/1

not many card in the format are as effective as Redcap.
If he can etb with a chieftain on the field (not that easy, I know) is also way better (3+2 damage)

sgc is my favorite finisher since onslaught block, but consider how much mana he requires:
5 mana = 5 body
7 mana = 5 body + shoot 2
9 mana = 5 body + shoot 4

Red cap
4 mana = 3 body + shoot 3

Of course is a lot less powerful, but on the other hand it looks incredibly efficient to me

[jrw1985]

Jeff Hoogland on Gobbos...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5FUvZxGcRc

[jonesypunk]

Murderous Redcap is a weird card.
It isn't a very good card compared with Krenko or Siege Gang, but after comparing all of them, looking at the strong points and the weaknesses it is a very strong card.
Lets review all of then:
Siege Gang: ETB effect, comes with 3 goblins, is a 2/2 creature that can shoot some targets, for 5cmc. He is a very powerfull creature, a great finisher, that alone can win games. If you look at my last tournament, i had to make a lot of mulligans despite having 23 lands, and against a wasteland deck i will probably never reach 5cmc, connecting a lackey against a fair deck i don't even remember my last one, and ticking vial to 5 is terrible because you wont take more advantage of her.
Krenko: 4cmc pretty good because you still use vial, a 3/3 creature that is a one man army, creating 1/1 goblins, particularly perfect having a bunch of goblins and an hasty lord in the table. Do you know how many times does a hasty lord sticks on the table for more than 1 turn!?!?! Or the amount of times that i untap with krenko??? Usually that only happens when opponent has a -1/-1 instant speed. Also the times that i remember winning with him, i would win even if i didn't have him on the table.
Murderous Redcap: 4cmc like Krenko, ETB effect that Tarfires, when dies comes as 1/1 (like war marshall) and does ping one more damage. In middle of game when we are refueling a tarfire my come to hand, but definitely we would prefer a creature, and the reason why i am loving him so much, he allows combat tricks through vial, also can be a 4->1 giving us a lot of virtual card advantage almost like ringleader (can kill a 2 creature, block and kill another, ping one more creature to death, and we still have a 1/1), giving that turn around that most of the times need, also replaced in my list 1 tarfire, but yet in middle long game acts like one. He is not better than the others, but how legacy stands now, might work as what we need (virtual card advantage). Also, he is the only Goblin that we have that can kill a Gurmag Angler (using vial) and we still have a 1/1 creature.

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[kombatkiwi]

If a {T} ability is too hard and 5 mana is too much then is Beetleback Chief on the table? Goblin Goon can also vial in on 4 and kill a Gurmag Angler and then you even have a 6/6 left over...

I get the appeal of all the points people have made but I would always play Lightning Crafter first

[Kodieyost]

Redcap doesn’t kill SFM/DRS on curve, which is the best time to kill them. Correct?

[jonesypunk]

Redcap doesn’t kill SFM/DRS on curve, which is the best time to kill them. Correct?No it doesnt kill on the curve, but for that we have the tarfire and gempalm. But at middle game kills them and is a creature to keep pressure opponents.

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[Kodieyost]

I will put slips of paper in a couple cards to test Redcap and see if it’s where I want to be. Swords or Terminus make it feel pretty bad, and it doesn’t have much game against Combo (where we should be trying to hedge).

Seems like more grind for the grind MUs than we really need, especially since most grindy MUs are just cold to a resolved Blood Moon and can’t keep up with uncounterable Ringleaders/Matrons.

Granted, I have only jammed the deck for a few days in total, but I know as a Storm player I’m completely okay with my opponent resolving a shock-stick for 4mana.

[Stevestamopz]

http://static.tappedout.net/mtg-cards-2/2011-core-set/ember-hauler/ember-hauler-cropped.jpg

This little guy has always been just short of being playable.

I have 3 in my current build cos it's 2/2 body is fantastic rn. Might be worth a shot over murderous redcap.

[menph]

http://static.tappedout.net/mtg-cards-2/2011-core-set/ember-hauler/ember-hauler-cropped.jpg

This little guy has always been just short of being playable.

I have 3 in my current build cos it's 2/2 body is fantastic rn. Might be worth a shot over murderous redcap.I would play it just for the flavor text :D

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[Kodieyost]

I would play it just for the flavor text :D

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I don’t think he’s bad necessarily but he only does the tarfire impression by sacrificing himself, which basically makes him a 1RR tarfire. Not at all a fan

[Stevestamopz]

I don’t think he’s bad necessarily but he only does the tarfire impression by sacrificing himself, which basically makes him a 1RR tarfire. Not at all a fan

My current list has 2 tarfire and 3 gempalm already. Ember Hauler is just additional removal if required, but it's more about lowering the curve and having more creatures than can attack through/into a DRS.

Don't get me wrong, this card is not really Legacy playable but neither is the rest of the deck so :wink:

[kombatkiwi]

I don't think Ember Hauler is terrible (and always interested in trying different 2-drops) but I am leery of things that cost RR.
The 2/3 Tarfire/Gempalm split is interesting imo. I used to play a split with more Gempalm (a fairly long time ago) I feel that the tempo of the Shock is too strong in this deck that doesn't have many ways to profitably interact in the earlygame, especially in modern legacy with Delver/DRS everywhere.

[Kodieyost]

I don't think Ember Hauler is terrible (and always interested in trying different 2-drops) but I am leery of things that cost RR.
The 2/3 Tarfire/Gempalm split is interesting imo. I used to play a split with more Gempalm (a fairly long time ago) I feel that the tempo of the Shock is too strong in this deck that doesn't have many ways to profitably interact in the earlygame, especially in modern legacy with Delver/DRS everywhere.

Gempalm for X>2 hasn’t been relevant for me yet, most creatures I run into are X/1 or X/2, with few exception. I did use Gempalm to deal 3 damage to a batterskull then tarfire, but X only needed to be 2 there.

[Stevestamopz]

I don't think Ember Hauler is terrible (and always interested in trying different 2-drops) but I am leery of things that cost RR.
The 2/3 Tarfire/Gempalm split is interesting imo. I used to play a split with more Gempalm (a fairly long time ago) I feel that the tempo of the Shock is too strong in this deck that doesn't have many ways to profitably interact in the earlygame, especially in modern legacy with Delver/DRS everywhere.

Yeah ditto. I went down to 2 ports to accomodate Ember's rather difficult casting cpst. The list I'm going to be working with is very similar to Hanni's list with 0 bombs outside of Ringleader, with the 23rd land (Pendelhaven) and 2 Siege-Gang's in the board for grindy matchups.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Yeah ditto. I went down to 2 ports to accomodate Ember's rather difficult casting cpst. The list I'm going to be working with is very similar to Hanni's list with 0 bombs outside of Ringleader, with the 23rd land (Pendelhaven) and 2 Siege-Gang's in the board for grindy matchups.

I'm also running 3 Ember Hauler right now, for the sole purpose of being a 2/2 that has some upside. It's also come up a few times that it's an uncounterable Tarfire without requiring board presence.

[Quackers]

What is everyone cutting for ember hauler?

[1GoblinLackey]

If we're in the market for 2/2s for 2 with some kind of upside, I really recommend Grenzo, Havoc Raiser. He's admittedly inconsistent like his first iteration, but can potentially win games you would have absolutely 0 chance to win otherwise. I've gotten crop rotation against turbo depths in order to grab a wasteland, I've gotten duress out of storm and also exiled tendrils game 1, abrupt decayed engineered plague, cast goyf against Jund, cast mother of runes against D&T and then got to kiki her later, letting me hold off Batterskull, Jitte on a Prelate, and SoFI on a Stoneforge...The effect he can have is quite powerful. Our legion of leftover 1/1s actually becomes a potent force when they have text that essentially is; "hit opponent, 2/3rds of the time draw a spell that you must cast this turn". It's unfortunate he doesn't have first strike or menace, but even without he's really beneficial to the go-wide plan.

I kinda like the idea of ember hauler, and can see playing him. What we really just need is a strictly better mogg fanatic that shocks!

I also like the build idea of no maindeck finishers, but stocking a few in the board. Keeps the deck leaner, which it really needs right now.

[Kodieyost]

If we're in the market for 2/2s for 2 with some kind of upside, I really recommend Grenzo, Havoc Raiser. He's admittedly inconsistent like his first iteration, but can potentially win games you would have absolutely 0 chance to win otherwise. I've gotten crop rotation against turbo depths in order to grab a wasteland, I've gotten duress out of storm and also exiled tendrils game 1, abrupt decayed engineered plague, cast goyf against Jund, cast mother of runes against D&T and then got to kiki her later, letting me hold off Batterskull, Jitte on a Prelate, and SoFI on a Stoneforge...The effect he can have is quite powerful. Our legion of leftover 1/1s actually becomes a potent force when they have text that essentially is; "hit opponent, 2/3rds of the time draw a spell that you must cast this turn". It's unfortunate he doesn't have first strike or menace, but even without he's really beneficial to the go-wide plan.

I kinda like the idea of ember hauler, and can see playing him. What we really just need is a strictly better mogg fanatic that shocks!

I also like the build idea of no maindeck finishers, but stocking a few in the board. Keeps the deck leaner, which it really needs right now.

I can't see why we would play Ember Hauler. Just doesn't work for me. I like Havoc Raiser, but the inconsistency would drive me insane.

[Marlock96]

There are no reasons to play Hember... I don't know why you guys are arguing about him, when there's not enough space neither to play all the strongest cards for this deck..
Just put more piledrivers if you need a T2drop, or a MWM, or ports, or winstigator... do we really need a tarfire T3 when we already have gempalm and tarfires? Hember seems one of the worst choice for this deck imo

[Dan Pyre]

I can't see why we would play Ember Hauler. Just doesn't work for me. I like Havoc Raiser, but the inconsistency would drive me insane.


There are no reasons to play Hember... I don't know why you guys are arguing about him, when there's not enough space neither to play all the strongest cards for this deck..
Just put more piledrivers if you need a T2drop, or a MWM, or ports, or winstigator... do we really need a tarfire T3 when we already have gempalm and tarfires? Hember seems one of the worst choice for this deck imo
Oooooh man I'm not a fan of Ember Hauler either but you folk really need to put some thought into it. Aside from Wizards never printing any good Goblin cards, attitudes like this are the reasons the deck will never evolve and become better. We need to be willing to try out of the box things before dismissing them!

SO here's some honest to goodness reasons to try playing Ember Hauler (I bolded ones where Ember Hauler definitely loses out and isn't conditional):

1) Comparing to Gempalm Incinerator:
-Ember Hauler always does 2 damage to a creature/Gempalm Incinerator has the possibility to do more than that but cannot remove DRS or flipped Delver with only 1 Goblin on board.
-Ember Hauler damage can go face/Gempalm Incinerator cannot
-Ember Hauler can be used as a body before removal/Gempalm Incinerator cannot be a body if used as removal
-Ember Hauler doesn't die to Engineered Plague effects in a pinch/Gempalm Incinerator does
-Ember Hauler is a T2 play, something that Goblins sorely lacks (MWM is 'okay' and Piledriver isn't good on its own, Ember Hauler IS)/Gempalm is never played as a body 95 percent of the time
-Ember Hauler does not require other board presence to be removal/Gempalm does require board presence to be removal
-Ember Hauler does not draw a card/Gempalm does draw a card

2) Comparing to Tarfire:
-Ember Hauler is a body for Gempalm Incinerator/Chieftain/Piledriver/Krenko effects or even for blocking and regular pressure / Tarfire is not
-Ember Hauler is uncounterable with Cavern or Aether Vial activation/Tarfire is not
-Ember Hauler gets around Chalice of the Void on 1 (Eldrazi matchup)/Tarfire does not
-Ember Hauler overall costs 3 mana to do 2 damage if that's the exact effect you need/Tarfire costs 1
-Ember Hauler doesn't remove a T1 DRS/Delver/Mother of Runes/ Tarfire does remove these

Misc:
-Ember Hauler can be used as a chump blocker, then sacrificed before damage to remove something else (eg, block a Gurmag, kill a Delver). This is just as good as if not MWM in these kind of situations.
-Ember Hauler is versatile - it is both a threat and a removal, similar to how Seal of Fire functions. While the removal on its body is telegraphed, your opponent has to play into it or wait to play around it which buys us precious time for Aether Vial ticks or mana development.
-Ember Hauler has a RR mana cost, making it difficult to cast in 4x Wasteland/4x Rishadan Port builds (Karakas, Pendelhaven too)
-If you play a version with Kolaghan's Command, you can find situations where recurring Ember Hauler would be useful (opponent at 4, neither Tarfire nor Gempalm can be brought back to do lethal).
-In a Chrome Mox build, Ember Hauler CAN remove DRS/other blocker on T2 to sneak Lackey through (Gempalm cannot unless you have a 2nd Lackey to power it).

Many of these are niche scenarios but we are playing a toolbox deck. Dismissing Ember Hauler outright is not correct but I can't say I'm EXCITED about him being in my deck. He's just another option for us to try. We need to be willing to experiment and hopefully the next time a 2-drop Goblin gets printed it is actually so good that, yes, we can outright say that Ember Hauler isn't good enough. In the meantime though, let's keep trying different options. Personally I'll be trying that outlandish No Cavern/ R/B build soon myself, it looks interesting.

Speaking of, since I've written all this I'm going to buy 4x Foil Ember Hauler to test out in the deck. B)

[Marlock96]

Oooooh man I'm not a fan of Ember Hauler either but you folk really need to put some thought into it. Aside from Wizards never printing any good Goblin cards, attitudes like this are the reasons the deck will never evolve and become better. We need to be willing to try out of the box things before dismissing them!

SO here's some honest to goodness reasons to try playing Ember Hauler (I bolded ones where Ember Hauler definitely loses out and isn't conditional):

1) Comparing to Gempalm Incinerator:
-Ember Hauler always does 2 damage to a creature/Gempalm Incinerator has the possibility to do more than that but cannot remove DRS or flipped Delver with only 1 Goblin on board.
-Ember Hauler damage can go face/Gempalm Incinerator cannot
-Ember Hauler can be used as a body before removal/Gempalm Incinerator cannot be a body if used as removal
-Ember Hauler doesn't die to Engineered Plague effects in a pinch/Gempalm Incinerator does
-Ember Hauler is a T2 play, something that Goblins sorely lacks (MWM is 'okay' and Piledriver isn't good on its own, Ember Hauler IS)/Gempalm is never played as a body 95 percent of the time
-Ember Hauler does not require other board presence to be removal/Gempalm does require board presence to be removal
-Ember Hauler does not draw a card/Gempalm does draw a card

2) Comparing to Tarfire:
-Ember Hauler is a body for Gempalm Incinerator/Chieftain/Piledriver/Krenko effects or even for blocking and regular pressure / Tarfire is not
-Ember Hauler is uncounterable with Cavern or Aether Vial activation/Tarfire is not
-Ember Hauler gets around Chalice of the Void on 1 (Eldrazi matchup)/Tarfire does not
-Ember Hauler overall costs 3 mana to do 2 damage if that's the exact effect you need/Tarfire costs 1
-Ember Hauler doesn't remove a T1 DRS/Delver/Mother of Runes/ Tarfire does remove these

Misc:
-Ember Hauler can be used as a chump blocker, then sacrificed before damage to remove something else (eg, block a Gurmag, kill a Delver). This is just as good as if not MWM in these kind of situations.
-Ember Hauler is versatile - it is both a threat and a removal, similar to how Seal of Fire functions. While the removal on its body is telegraphed, your opponent has to play into it or wait to play around it which buys us precious time for Aether Vial ticks or mana development.
-Ember Hauler has a RR mana cost, making it difficult to cast in 4x Wasteland/4x Rishadan Port builds (Karakas, Pendelhaven too)
-If you play a version with Kolaghan's Command, you can find situations where recurring Ember Hauler would be useful (opponent at 4, neither Tarfire nor Gempalm can be brought back to do lethal).
-In a Chrome Mox build, Ember Hauler CAN remove DRS/other blocker on T2 to sneak Lackey through (Gempalm cannot unless you have a 2nd Lackey to power it).

Many of these are niche scenarios but we are playing a toolbox deck. Dismissing Ember Hauler outright is not correct but I can't say I'm EXCITED about him being in my deck. He's just another option for us to try. We need to be willing to experiment and hopefully the next time a 2-drop Goblin gets printed it is actually so good that, yes, we can outright say that Ember Hauler isn't good enough. In the meantime though, let's keep trying different options. Personally I'll be trying that outlandish No Cavern/ R/B build soon myself, it looks interesting.

Speaking of, since I've written all this I'm going to buy 4x Foil Ember Hauler to test out in the deck. B)

"Wizards not printing new goblins" doesn't mean necessarly you have to play clunky cards :/
I would focus more on finding the appropriate list for this meta instead :)
I mean: should we cut piledrivers for more utility? Should we try ancient tombs? Should we run the winstigator list? And so on..
I know you're trying new things, and that's good, but I think that our pool of cards is already well defined, and is really really big even without Hember

[Dan Pyre]

"Wizards not printing new goblins" doesn't mean necessarly you have to play clunky cards :/

Just focusing on this point since the rest of your ideas are just as legitimate for trying new things. I don't think Ember Hauler is as clunky as it looks, as per the gigantic list I just posted. It has a lot of utility that both Tarfire and Gempalm don't cover. This isn't going to fit well in a 'no frills' list with no singletons that runs 4x Piledriver, but if you're reaching for a decent 2 drop that has utility (removal/endgame reach) then this is the best we have right now.

[kombatkiwi]

Just focusing on this point since the rest of your ideas are just as legitimate for trying new things. I don't think Ember Hauler is as clunky as it looks, as per the gigantic list I just posted. It has a lot of utility that both Tarfire and Gempalm don't cover. This isn't going to fit well in a 'no frills' list with no singletons that runs 4x Piledriver, but if you're reaching for a decent 2 drop that has utility (removal/endgame reach) then this is the best we have right now.

Overall I just think Ember Hauler compares very poorly to Sparksmith, it fills the same role (CMC 2 goblin that acts as removal) but the manacost is worse and the ceiling is also worse (Ember Hauler will never be much more than 2 mana 2 power Seal of Fire, best case for Sparksmith is 2 mana Visara).

Sparksmith becomes even stronger for every Warchief you have (haste + discount, remember if you're playing Warchief then not only are RR goblins like EHauler hard to cast off waste/port but they don't get any cost reduction), and I still think it's worth playing even though I run zero Warchief

[Dan Pyre]

Overall I just think Ember Hauler compares very poorly to Sparksmith, it fills the same role (CMC 2 goblin that acts as removal) but the manacost is worse and the ceiling is also worse (Ember Hauler will never be much more than 2 mana 2 power Seal of Fire, best case for Sparksmith is 2 mana Visara).

Sparksmith becomes even stronger for every Warchief you have (haste + discount, remember if you're playing Warchief then not only are RR goblins like EHauler hard to cast off waste/port but they don't get any cost reduction), and I still think it's worth playing even though I run zero Warchief
Sparksmith has downsides too - you can't use it for removal if you're too low on life, it only does 1 damage on its own and requires a summon sick tap ability to use. I'm saying that dismissing cards like Ember Hauler right away shouldn't be our line of thinking just because they haven't had mainstream use yet.

[1GoblinLackey]

So I've been doing some more testing, figured I'd let you all know some results. Today I played a whole bunch of games against Elves and RUG Delver (pretty classic lists for both, RUG was playing 4 delver, 4 goyf, 4 mongoose, 1 seal of fire 1 forked bolt maindeck). We only played game 1s for delver, he didn't have the whole board together. I have to imagine it gets way better post board for us, since Relic lets you not just die to a big dumb tarmogoyf.

Here's what I was playing:
4 Vial

4 Lackey
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
3 Piledriver
3 Chieftain
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warchief
1 Chirurgeon
1 Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger

3 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis

23 Lands
6 Fetches
4 Caverns
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Port

Sideboard:
2 Relic
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Krenko
1 Siege Gang
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Pithing Needle
3 Blood Moon
1 Earwig Squad
1 Pyrokinesis

So my idea with this list was getting much lower to the ground, with 8 actual 2 drops, no maindeck finishers. However, I wanted the capacity to transform into a much more bomb heavy and grindy deck, hence the 2 finishers in the board, plus 2 K command.

Elves: Winning on the play isn't too difficult. T1 Lackey plus tarfire is almost always a win as long as you can swiftly move towards a sharpshooter. On the draw, it's a lot tougher, nearly impossible unless they just can't find the natural order or hoof.

Post board, I brought in a ton of cards since most are quite impactful. Therapy, Pyro, Squad, 2 Moons, Siege-Gang, Needle all came in. Still not sold on blood moon against elves though, usually too slow to actually cut them off colors. I cut most of my ringleaders, the bad conditional cards like tuktuk, and the Grenzos. Therapy is such a big deal in this matchup, breaking up their combo in their hand slows them MASSIVELY. My therapies swiped out 2 natural orders, and secured the way for a sharpshooter by nabbing a decay. Chirurgeon also performed well for protecting sharpshooter. However, I consistently missed having prospector as well. Moving forward, I think I want to play both. I did lose a game or 2 with an active sharpshooter, mostly because I died to Nissa, Vital Force after getting flooded and lacking any more goblins to sac to the chirurgeon to kill x/2s (and the big 5/5 land. Overall, I'm still convinced that Elves is a barely favored matchup overall, as long as you play well and time your removal spells accurately.

If I were to replace grenzo, I'd play sparksmith instead, he's amazing for matchups like this.

RUG Delver: I still feel like I don't quite have a handle on this matchup. The threat of goyf plus disruption just seems virtually impossible to overcome. Since goyf is almost immediately a 4/5 or larger, I can never gempalm it, especially since we have to start chump blocking pretty damn quick because the creatures hit so damn hard. I know other goblins players have been able to beat RUG delver consistently, and did it for years back in the day, but I can't seem to. Now, granted, my opponent has now played against goblins about a million times now and knows that all he really needs is a force for my vial/bolt for lackey, then just threat after threat after threat. There's just no way to beat a board of a couple of threshed mongeese and goyfs without something like Krenko to just generate infinite blockers. I also never played a single t1 vial that resolved (Even on the play), despite playing them really often. We can draw all the cards in the world with ringleader, but it doesn't matter if they're just a pile of 1/1s and 2/2s that we're immediately forced to chump with to stay alive. The more zoo-like his draw, the more unwinnable the matchup felt. Advice on this matchup in game 1 settings would be really nice. We probably traded games at a 40/60 or 35/65 ratio in his favor.

The 3 Piledrivers were nice in most situations. I got the classic warchief into triple piledriver kill which was nice. The only time I ever actually got to kill a goyf in 15 games was when I forced him to chump PD with it. Grenzo hit a really nice brainstorm for me, grabbing me an important wasteland that protected my matron from stifle.

Since we didn't play postboard I don't have any thoughts other than what I would bring in and take out. On the play, I'd bring in 2 Relics, 2 Moons, Krenko, and perhaps squad? I'd cut the 3 tarfires (which are absolutely miserable in the matchup), pyrokinesis, sharpshooter, and tuktuk. On the draw, probably the same plan? Is exposure to wasteland through therapy ever worth it? It's certainly a nice way to counteract the goyf problem.

After playing these games, I'm more convinced that I want both prospector and chirurgeon. I really had a hard time deciding what to cut, ended up shaving a war marshal, though I'm far from committed to that. I also would like to be able maindeck the krenko, he's just so powerful as a top-end, even in the super tempo-oriented matchups like RUG. Even against Elves he grants inevitability, and insulates you from sideboard cards like Scavenging Ooze that can dominate the game.

I also wanted a 4th discard spell, either just a 4th therapy, or a thoughtseize (leaning towards the seize). I think I'll cut the minister, but am unsure. Minister is really really good against the 2 best decks right now (grixis delver and pile) since it can wipe the board of Baleful Strixes, Snapcasters, Young Pyromancers + Tokens, TNN, and shrinking drs to an 0/1 for a turn frees up good attacks. This doesn't even mention it's huge power against D&T, where it could nearly be a deluge (and dodges mom protection!). Same deal with Elves. I think of Minister as taking the slot of the 3rd pyro and a warren weirding at the same time, since it fulfills a similar purpose for both cards (though doesn't handle griselbrand, emrakul and marit lage like weirding can).

What other sideboard card could I cut? If I maindeck the Krenko, then what should I cut from there?

By the way, I know the decklist is 61 cards, I'm okay with that.

[Eldariel]

Is there any sense in running MD Tuktuk Scrapper? Do you really run into Bridge, Jitte, Sword or Batterskull or whatever that you can't deal with often enough for it to be worthwhile? It seems miserable against the whole top tier and very situational and unnecessary vs. mid tier decks (you can stop lifelink from Batterskull and Jitte counters by chumping and saccing), and even against Ensnaring Bridge you can win with Sharpshooter (many Bridge-decks are otherwise poor at dealing with creatures.. I think an SGC, Piledriver, War Marshal or basically anything else would be much better. Also, such a low Warchief count feels off: I found Warchief a key accelerant into midgame if you ever ended up in a situation where you lack Vial or Lackey. I'd also definitely play the second Pyrokinesis main with two more in the side. It just seems too good against everything; wins you tempo against Eldrazi to stabilize, punches Lackeys through vs. almost everything, absolutely houses Elves/D&T/Pile/Grixis Pyromancer and so on.

[Fourbirr]

Oooooh man I'm not a fan of Ember Hauler either but you folk really need to put some thought into it. Aside from Wizards never printing any good Goblin cards, attitudes like this are the reasons the deck will never evolve and become better. We need to be willing to try out of the box things before dismissing them!

SO here's some honest to goodness reasons to try playing Ember Hauler (I bolded ones where Ember Hauler definitely loses out and isn't conditional):

1) Comparing to Gempalm Incinerator:
-Ember Hauler always does 2 damage to a creature/Gempalm Incinerator has the possibility to do more than that but cannot remove DRS or flipped Delver with only 1 Goblin on board.
-Ember Hauler damage can go face/Gempalm Incinerator cannot
-Ember Hauler can be used as a body before removal/Gempalm Incinerator cannot be a body if used as removal
-Ember Hauler doesn't die to Engineered Plague effects in a pinch/Gempalm Incinerator does
-Ember Hauler is a T2 play, something that Goblins sorely lacks (MWM is 'okay' and Piledriver isn't good on its own, Ember Hauler IS)/Gempalm is never played as a body 95 percent of the time
-Ember Hauler does not require other board presence to be removal/Gempalm does require board presence to be removal
-Ember Hauler does not draw a card/Gempalm does draw a card

2) Comparing to Tarfire:
-Ember Hauler is a body for Gempalm Incinerator/Chieftain/Piledriver/Krenko effects or even for blocking and regular pressure / Tarfire is not
-Ember Hauler is uncounterable with Cavern or Aether Vial activation/Tarfire is not
-Ember Hauler gets around Chalice of the Void on 1 (Eldrazi matchup)/Tarfire does not
-Ember Hauler overall costs 3 mana to do 2 damage if that's the exact effect you need/Tarfire costs 1
-Ember Hauler doesn't remove a T1 DRS/Delver/Mother of Runes/ Tarfire does remove these

Misc:
-Ember Hauler can be used as a chump blocker, then sacrificed before damage to remove something else (eg, block a Gurmag, kill a Delver). This is just as good as if not MWM in these kind of situations.
-Ember Hauler is versatile - it is both a threat and a removal, similar to how Seal of Fire functions. While the removal on its body is telegraphed, your opponent has to play into it or wait to play around it which buys us precious time for Aether Vial ticks or mana development.
-Ember Hauler has a RR mana cost, making it difficult to cast in 4x Wasteland/4x Rishadan Port builds (Karakas, Pendelhaven too)
-If you play a version with Kolaghan's Command, you can find situations where recurring Ember Hauler would be useful (opponent at 4, neither Tarfire nor Gempalm can be brought back to do lethal).
-In a Chrome Mox build, Ember Hauler CAN remove DRS/other blocker on T2 to sneak Lackey through (Gempalm cannot unless you have a 2nd Lackey to power it).

Many of these are niche scenarios but we are playing a toolbox deck. Dismissing Ember Hauler outright is not correct but I can't say I'm EXCITED about him being in my deck. He's just another option for us to try. We need to be willing to experiment and hopefully the next time a 2-drop Goblin gets printed it is actually so good that, yes, we can outright say that Ember Hauler isn't good enough. In the meantime though, let's keep trying different options. Personally I'll be trying that outlandish No Cavern/ R/B build soon myself, it looks interesting.

Speaking of, since I've written all this I'm going to buy 4x Foil Ember Hauler to test out in the deck. B)

It is also possible to sacrifice Ember Hauler using colorless mana from our Wastelands, Rishadan Ports or Caverns of Souls. Tarfire and Gempalm Incinerator don't allow that.

I gave the guy a chance yesterday, and went 3-1 against Mono-blue Delver, UR Delver, TES, lost to Dredge (never saw a SB card and mulled to 4 each time). The wins didn't implied Ember at all. Tarfire, Pyroblast and Gempalm did all the removal work.

EDIT: Of course, it's useless to write that the 3 Piledrivers won all games by themselves.

In a list with 4 Wastelands, 4 Ports, he was hard to cast. Most of the time, I wanted to drop him through Vial, but with Gempalm, Mogg War Marshal, lands in hand and a Vial @2, I was not really inclined to vial him and use 1 mana just to kill a flipped Delver. I found that Vial could have a better use, like dropping MWM+Gempalm+draw a card or Vial in Piledriver EOT and prepare the assault with Vial @3 and Warchief/Chieftain next turn.

For the moment I'm quite mitigated, but I would like to test him more, especially against BUG & Grixis. Against Rug, he is useless, because their creatures have shroud. In this scenario, I prefer to draw a card with Gempalm or have multiple MWM for Piledriver.

Anyway, here is the list I ran:

MD:
4 Caverns / Wastelands / Rishadan Ports / Mountain
5 fetches
1 Taiga, 1 Plateau

4 Lackey / Vial / Ringleader / Matron
3 Warchief / Piledriver
2 MWM / Ember Hauler
1 Skirk Prospector / Gang-Bang Commander / Tin-Street Hooligan / Stingscourger / Sharpshooter / Chieftain

2 Tarfire / Gempalm
1 Pyrokinesis

SB:
3 Thalia
2 Relic / Pithing Needle / Pyroblast / Pyrokinesis / Surgical Extraction
1 Stingscourger / Tin-Street Hooligan

[Dan Pyre]

It is also possible to sacrifice Ember Hauler using colorless mana from our Wastelands, Rishadan Ports or Caverns of Souls. Tarfire and Gempalm Incinerator don't allow that.

I gave the guy a chance yesterday, and went 3-1 against Mono-blue Delver, UR Delver, TES, lost to Dredge (never saw a SB card and mulled to 4 each time). The wins didn't implied Ember at all. Tarfire, Pyroblast and Gempalm did all the removal work.

In a list with 4 Wastelands, 4 Ports, he was hard to cast. Most of the time, I wanted to drop him through Vial, but with Gempalm, Mogg War Marshal, lands in hand and a Vial @2, I was not really inclined to vial him and use 1 mana just to kill a flipped Delver. I found that Vial could have a better use, like dropping MWM+Gempalm+draw a card or Vial in Piledriver EOT and prepare the assault with Vial @3 and Warchief/Chieftain next turn.

For the moment I'm quite mitigated, but I would like to test him more, especially against BUG & Grixis. Against Rug, he is useless, because their creatures have shroud. In this scenario, I prefer to draw a card with Gempalm or have multiple MWM for Piledriver.

Anyway, here is the list I ran:

MD:
4 Caverns / Wastelands / Rishadan Ports / Mountain
5 fetches
1 Taiga, 1 Plateau

4 Lackey / Vial / Ringleader / Matron
3 Warchief / Piledriver
2 MWM / Ember Hauler
1 Skirk Prospector / Gang-Bang Commander / Tin-Street Hooligan / Stingscourger / Sharpshooter / Chieftain

2 Tarfire / Gempalm
1 Pyrokinesis

SB:
3 Thalia
2 Relic / Pithing Needle / Pyroblast / Pyrokinesis / Surgical Extraction
1 Stingscourger / Tin-Street Hooligan
Hey, thanks for reporting your tests with the card! Looks like you didn't particularly have much luck with him which is fair. However, I do have some nitpicks :P

-You mention you're on a 4 Waste/4 Port build. I think this is evidence that he isn't really playable in that sort of build as he could make mulligan decisions incredibly awkward. I think it might be better served to try him in a list with no Ports.

-In an example, you cite that it would be better to Vial in MWM and activate Gempalm's ability for removal than use Ember. However, this implies that you have assembled 3 cards in your hand, the mana to use the ability, the Vial on the correct count and that your opponent can't reduce the Goblin count in response. Ember Hauler gives you exactly what you need at a specific cost without having to jump through hoops. So I agree in this instance that MWM/Gempalm is superior but that's quite a specific circumstance.

-Against RUG Delver he is much less effective, but unlike MWM chumps he can still block a Goyf and then kill a Delver. That's quite significant but also quite niche. (Delver player must have committed multiple threats to the board.)

To be honest I'm not convinced of Ember Hauler myself even now BUT I wanted to stir up conversation and testing so that we're not all so 'set in our ways' with decklists. Thank you again for your report!

[kombatkiwi]

Is there any sense in running MD Tuktuk Scrapper? Do you really run into Bridge, Jitte, Sword or Batterskull or whatever that you can't deal with often enough for it to be worthwhile? It seems miserable against the whole top tier and very situational and unnecessary vs. mid tier decks (you can stop lifelink from Batterskull and Jitte counters by chumping and saccing), and even against Ensnaring Bridge you can win with Sharpshooter (many Bridge-decks are otherwise poor at dealing with creatures.. I think an SGC, Piledriver, War Marshal or basically anything else would be much better. Also, such a low Warchief count feels off: I found Warchief a key accelerant into midgame if you ever ended up in a situation where you lack Vial or Lackey. I'd also definitely play the second Pyrokinesis main with two more in the side. It just seems too good against everything; wins you tempo against Eldrazi to stabilize, punches Lackeys through vs. almost everything, absolutely houses Elves/D&T/Pile/Grixis Pyromancer and so on.

So you can stop Skull and Jitte from eradicating all of your creatures by... sacrificing all your creatures? Against Ensnaring Bridge you CAN win with sharpshooter or any burn card but that is often quite a challenge.

I see where you are coming from (and I wish it wasn't a 4 mana 2/2) but the only top decks it's really a blank against are Grixis Delver and Elves. Against CP you can just Nekrataal a Strix, which is fine, and against DNT/Stoneblade it's great, against combodecks it's not fantastic but neither is anything you would replace it with.

Pyrokinesis seems terrible against CP in my mind so one of us isn't understanding the matchup properly.
They hardly commit multiple creatures to the board unless they are cantrips and the whole gameplan seems to revolve around resource grinding.

[Fourbirr]

-You mention you're on a 4 Waste/4 Port build. I think this is evidence that he isn't really playable in that sort of build as he could make mulligan decisions incredibly awkward. I think it might be better served to try him in a list with no Ports.
Well, that's a NO-GO! I cannot count the number of times where Ports saved my tribe, especially against Combo decks. I like the goblin control plan too much to forbid me to get access to.



-In an example, you cite that it would be better to Vial in MWM and activate Gempalm's ability for removal than use Ember. However, this implies that you have assembled 3 cards in your hand, the mana to use the ability, the Vial on the correct count and that your opponent can't reduce the Goblin count in response. Ember Hauler gives you exactly what you need at a specific cost without having to jump through hoops. So I agree in this instance that MWM/Gempalm is superior but that's quite a specific circumstance.
Yeah, that was specific. I just had the choice between him and something else and it appears that he wouldn't have done much. The sequencing with MWM+Gempalm had more value.

Ember would probably be better in a mono-red list without Ports. I'll test him more in both splashed and mono red lists.

[Fourbirr]

There is another guy that I would like to test, and it's Bloodmark Mentor:
https://magiccards.info/scans/en/ddg/50.jpg

He has the merit to increase our chances against D&T since we won't have to board out Piledriver anymore, since he was useless against Thalia. I can imagine matroning for him in this match-up, but Sharpshooter or TSH/Tuktuk are probably better 90% of the time. It's also nice against Grixis and Young Pyromancer.

Does anyone already tested him?

[jrw1985]

Re: Bloodmark-

I've not tested him but I have one major problem, which is that his effect is not cumulative. So you can only justify running him as a 1-drop, but he's nowhere near powerful enough to Matron for.

Also, Legion Loyalist sorta does the same thing but better. And Legion Loyalist isn't good enough either. Again, because he doesn't have a cumulative effect. If Loyalist gave +1/+0 he's break the format. But he doesn't. So he didn't.

[Fourbirr]

Bloodmark Mentor would be a 1-of to enable combat tricks during both the defensive or offensive phase.


Also, Legion Loyalist sorta does the same thing but better.
Hmmm, I disagree. Loyalist cannot give First Strike to our defenders and the 1-drop slots are already taken for Lackeys, Vials, Tarfires, Skirk/Doc Gob, or SB cards like Relic, Surgical, Pithing Needle, Pyroblast or Grafdigger's Cage to name a few. The Vialing effect that our opponent cannot see coming is key here. Usually, we can deal with tokens with Sharpshooter, Monastery Mentor with Gempalm/Tarfire and Batterskull with a shatter goblin. The trample ability does not much for us, since our only creature capable of tramping is Piledriver. In my opinion, he is at its best in the current Delver/Leovold/TNN everywhere Meta and does not need help to strike.

Is there another 2-drop goblin that could improve our deck? That's the question here.

[Kodieyost]

Bloodmark Mentor would be a 1-of to enable combat tricks during both the defensive or offensive phase.


Hmmm, I disagree. Loyalist cannot give First Strike to our defenders and the 1-drop slots are already taken for Lackeys, Vials, Tarfires, Skirk/Doc Gob, or SB cards like Relic, Surgical, Pithing Needle, Pyroblast or Grafdigger's Cage to name a few. The Vialing effect that our opponent cannot see coming is key here. Usually, we can deal with tokens with Sharpshooter, Monastery Mentor with Gempalm/Tarfire and Batterskull with a shatter goblin. The trample ability does not much for us, since our only creature capable of tramping is Piledriver. In my opinion, he is at its best in the current Delver/Leovold/TNN everywhere Meta and does not need help to strike.

Is there another 2-drop goblin that could improve our deck? That's the question here.


I don’t think he’s that great; Grindy decks should always be thinking to the “topdeck” scenarios

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Bloodmark Mentor would be a 1-of to enable combat tricks during both the defensive or offensive phase.


Hmmm, I disagree. Loyalist cannot give First Strike to our defenders and the 1-drop slots are already taken for Lackeys, Vials, Tarfires, Skirk/Doc Gob, or SB cards like Relic, Surgical, Pithing Needle, Pyroblast or Grafdigger's Cage to name a few. The Vialing effect that our opponent cannot see coming is key here. Usually, we can deal with tokens with Sharpshooter, Monastery Mentor with Gempalm/Tarfire and Batterskull with a shatter goblin. The trample ability does not much for us, since our only creature capable of tramping is Piledriver. In my opinion, he is at its best in the current Delver/Leovold/TNN everywhere Meta and does not need help to strike.

Is there another 2-drop goblin that could improve our deck? That's the question here.

Thin pickings.

For those who intend to peruse the twos':

Rares and Mythics (https://scryfall.com/search?q=format%3Alegacy+t%3Agoblin+cmc%3D2+%28rarity%3Amythic+or+rarity%3Arare%29)

Uncommons (https://scryfall.com/search?q=format%3Alegacy+t%3Agoblin+cmc%3D2+rarity%3Auncommon)

Commons (https://scryfall.com/search?q=format%3Alegacy+t%3Agoblin+cmc%3D2+rarity%3Acommon)


I've looked at these lists a number of times and what I want just isn't there :/

[menph]

I don't get the point here.
As t2 play we already have piledriver, warren instigator, warren weirding, sparkmith, gempalm, mwm, port, new grenzo and is very hard to find room for all of them. So why search for bad cards with "goblin" tag on them?
I understand that we need to think out of the box, but find new strategies or new priorities in deck development is what we need. Shitty cards will not save the tribe..
Definitely looking for some cool new print in next sets.

Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I don't get the point here.
As t2 play we already have piledriver, warren instigator, warren weirding, sparkmith, gempalm, mwm, port, new grenzo and is very hard to find room for all of them. So why search for bad cards with "goblin" tag on them?
I understand that we need to think out of the box, but find new strategies or new priorities in deck development is what we need. Shitty cards will not save the tribe..
Definitely looking for some cool new print in next sets.

Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

I don't think it's an understatement to say we fall behind in card quality for our turn 2 plays compared to pretty much every other Legacy deck. It can't hurt to dig around and try things, so why not? I've definitely tried all of the common strategies already, so that's a question of fine tuning, not exploration. I have my fallback lists that I know are tried and true, but I'll never learn about other strategies if I don't test them out, and how they might interact with other cards in unexpected ways. This even goes so far as to give a leg up on experience when cards come out that make older cards more viable.

[dissy]

This might be a Nice 2 drop. In some cases when you have enough Goblins you can cycle gempalm on him to Burn the opponent.
Or when you block goyf angler or KOTR.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171129/a90ac1db71917884b015c4c97bf1369a.jpg

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ONE E1003 met Tapatalk

[jonesypunk]

This might be a Nice 2 drop. In some cases when you have enough Goblins you can cycle gempalm on him to Burn the opponent.
Or when you block goyf angler or KOTR.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171129/a90ac1db71917884b015c4c97bf1369a.jpg

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ONE E1003 met TapatalkI tried mogg maniac a long time ago. It is cool, but not that good. When you get manic and gempalm working is fun and you can win games but it rarely happens, unless you increase the numbers of maniac.

Sent from my Power_2 using Tapatalk

[kombatkiwi]

Maniac is ass, Bloodmark is also ass

Planning to vial in on 2 as a combat trick is garbage in this deck because you never want to leave vial on 2, so the best case is what, like turn 1 vial turn 2 piledriver turn 3 warchief attack, vial in mentor? Why play situational cards when they aren't even that strong when the narrow situation even comes up? Don't get hung up on the fact that it fills your curve as a 2 drop when you can easily just play more MWMs or whatever (or any of the other things that menph listed)

[Eldariel]

So you can stop Skull and Jitte from eradicating all of your creatures by... sacrificing all your creatures? Against Ensnaring Bridge you CAN win with sharpshooter or any burn card but that is often quite a challenge.

I see where you are coming from (and I wish it wasn't a 4 mana 2/2) but the only top decks it's really a blank against are Grixis Delver and Elves. Against CP you can just Nekrataal a Strix, which is fine, and against DNT/Stoneblade it's great, against combodecks it's not fantastic but neither is anything you would replace it with.

Pyrokinesis seems terrible against CP in my mind so one of us isn't understanding the matchup properly.
They hardly commit multiple creatures to the board unless they are cantrips and the whole gameplan seems to revolve around resource grinding.

Vs. Skull and Jitte you can sac irrelevant 1/1s and hit back for a billion, or if they don't hit you, you can just wait to Gempalm/whatever the problem creature and go for the throat in the same turn; generally you'll end up with more stuff out than they will and your War Marshals/tokens, Matrons, even Ringleaders or SGC/Grenko tokens are more than happy to jump in the front and take one for the team. It's the same as always - not the best plan but workable with the appropriate board and most importantly it doesn't fringe on your match-up vs. other stuff. Tuk Tuk is just too inefficient compared to some of the other 4-drops you could run. Nekrataaling Strix is...fine but unexciting and I'd want more out of my 4-drops. And it requires that you get the chance to do that in the first place. Tin Street could be worthwhile but again, I don't think we lose to artifacts enough G1 to need it. It's useful vs. D&T but even that doesn't get around the inefficiency of it all.

As for PK vs. CP, they're often with some Strixes, Deathrites and Snapcasters at least IME and you can clear the floor for alpha strike. Of course, it's not a card you actively want to bring in in the MU but it does push Lackey or Piledriver through a reasonable amount of the time and generates those tempo windows where you can go for the kill and prevents them from getting those fast starts with Deathrite in the first place. It's not bad enough here that I think it's worth overlooking the boons it offers against other match-ups.

[kombatkiwi]

Beating Jitte without artifact destruction is a magical scenario, you need like a perfect string of sac outlet plus MWMs plus things that can attack, and it assumes that your opponent can't equip it on a flier or a TNN, or give pro red with Mother of Runes, or guess what it's not Jitte it's Sword of Fire and Ice now you lose to any creature.

I have cut Scrapper in the past because I have been annoyed by drawing it but then I always inevitably add it back, killing artifacts is important and it comes up frequently enough to be worth being a vanilla 2/2 sometimes. I would play Hooligan instead if I splashed green.

Hopefully in MTG Dominaria we get Torch Fiend or Manic Vandal as a goblin (Why isn't there a red War Priest or Ronom Unicorn for artifacts?)

[Kodieyost]

On another note: I know our Reanimator MU is atrocious, but what’s the general strategy for winning that?

[dissy]

On another note: I know our Reanimator MU is atrocious, but what’s the general strategy for winning that?Praying [emoji41]

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[egoblinsw]

On another note: I know our Reanimator MU is atrocious, but what’s the general strategy for winning that?

Play some dedicated hate cards that splash other matchups in your sideboard. Surgical and grafdiggers are both great. Cabal therapy and thoughtsieze work fine. Warren weirding beats everything except g-daddy

[1GoblinLackey]

On another note: I know our Reanimator MU is atrocious, but what’s the general strategy for winning that?

There are some tricks: stingscouger is def better than weirding 90% of the time, but weirding dodges Iona. Graf cage is probablly the best card in the matchup, followed by surgical. A big reason why stingscouger is better is that once it echoes away, it essentially turns off exhume. Getting a Matron or sting into the yard is a great position to be in.

[Cringe]

I’ve been testing against UB reanimator for months now and from all the games (I like to lose this matchup) Stingscourger is just the best Goblin we have for them. As stated it shuts off exhume, and I like to bring in hand hate from the board and try to take their reanimate spells. Can’t really be fast against them. If you’re splashing black you get EWS which works wonders. But generally it’s so hard to get ahead here. Another deck I think we like to struggle against is elves but from what I’ve gathered from games is that a heavy creature destruction package does great in the early game to buy us time for a matron/sharpshooter. Testing partners both run those two decks so every weekend I get to be the luckiest guy in the world and eat crap lol. But it has tought me that these games are winnable, just very hard to get good win percentages. Just hope ou generally avoid these ones.

[Quackers]

Against reanimator, Grafdigger's and Stingscourger are what I use along with quick pressure. Against elves, it's easier on the play with a lacky and removal but in the post board games holding up pyrokenisis to respond to the craterhoof trigger is really good against inexperienced elves players and then your buddies that play the deck a lot will always play around the possibility after you do it to them once.

[menph]

the 2-drop we were searching for has finally been spoiled!!!!



http://mythicspoiler.com/rix/cards/swabgoblin.jpg

:tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue:
jeez

[kombatkiwi]

Anybody still playing the 2 mana 1/2 can finally upgrade :D

[menph]

hi there everybody,
fourbirr's game was streamed at 2:22 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MX8Au5s_5Q
a very bad MU for us..
personally this rector version of Nic Fit with big enchantments is my favourite deck atm. i wish i had most of the card to wrap it up

about the mana-stability topic of the last week: what do you think about cutting most of the non-basics for more mountains and add a couple of Price of Progres as unexpected game-closing shenanigan?
i think we could keep just caverns for delver MU ( maybe a couple of ports for some value) and then steal games out of nowhere thank to the best legacy burn spell.
i didn't have time to test it out properly yet but could be interesting to try it out


Anybody still playing the 2 mana 1/2 can finally upgrade :D

lol

[kombatkiwi]

Game 1 is at 2:00:00

"We thought about playing starfield but we decided that we don't want to make our curses vulnerable to removal" I see why these guys are 1-3 klappa
I think they misplay a lot g2, at least they realise you should have matroned for tarfire (unless you only kept in 1, which is reasonable in this mu, but then g3 you still have Pyrokinesis? Interested to see your list and how your boarded here)
I think you arguably played too many things into on-board deed in both g2 and g3

If you want to play a non-goblin burn card then why not Goblin Grenade? In any matchup you would want PoP except Lands and maybe Eldrazi I don't think it's worth making your Ringleaders worse.

[Fourbirr]

Hi Menph,

Thank you for sharing the link. I was playing a league on MTGO and didn't know it was streamed. Game 1, I was really slow, because this Nic Fit version was new to me and I didn't know how to interact. The version I know has Veteran Explorer, Siege Rhino, Tireless Tracker as creatures.

After the mulligan, my hand was 2 lands, 2 lackeys, 1 Sharpshooter and 1 Piledriver, which is absolutely keepable. Normally, against a midrange deck like Nic Fit, my strategy is to not touch Veteran Explore, because they have to find a Therapy to sacrifice him. I think it's usually better to build a board, then rush them, because we don't want to let them cast things that we can't deal with on turn 4 or 5.

The thing is that I was afraid by the double Cabal Therapy+Veteran sac which would have left me with pretty nothing in hand. I shouldn't have attacked Veteran on T2 without a Rishadan Port in backup to cut the black. Later on, chaining Academy Rector was too much that I could manage. G2, I didn't Matron for Tarfire, because I did not have it. G3, Therapy ripped my hand. Not much that I could do, anyway.

My list was:

23 lands
4 Wastelands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Fetches
4 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Plateau

16 core
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshall
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

3 spells
2 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis

Sideboard
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

I boarded like this:

-1 Skirk Prospector, -1 MWM, -1 Tarfire, -1 Lackey, -2 Piledriver, -1 Tin Street Hooligan
+1 Stingscourger, +2 Pithing Needle (Pernicious Deed, Garruk), +2 Surgical Extraction (Green Sun Zenit, Veteran, Cabal Therapy, Academy Rector), +2 Pyrokinesis (Lingering Souls)

A few games before this one, I played against the same Nic Fit list and won, thanks to the strategy applied like mentioned before. But it's a tough MU and I don't like it at all.

[Marlock96]

Hi Menph,

Thank you for sharing the link. I was playing a league on MTGO and didn't know it was streamed. Game 1, I was really slow, because this Nic Fit version was new to me and I didn't know how to interact. The version I know has Veteran Explorer, Siege Rhino, Tireless Tracker as creatures.

After the mulligan, my hand was 2 lands, 2 lackeys, 1 Sharpshooter and 1 Piledriver, which is absolutely keepable. Normally, against a midrange deck like Nic Fit, my strategy is to not touch Veteran Explore, because they have to find a Therapy to sacrifice him. I think it's usually better to build a board, then rush them, because we don't want to let them cast things that we can't deal with on turn 4 or 5.

The thing is that I was afraid by the double Cabal Therapy+Veteran sac which would have left me with pretty nothing in hand. I shouldn't have attacked Veteran on T2 without a Rishadan Port in backup to cut the black. Later on, chaining Academy Rector was too much that I could manage. G2, I didn't Matron for Tarfire, because I did not have it. G3, Therapy ripped my hand. Not much that I could do, anyway.

My list was:

23 lands
4 Wastelands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Fetches
4 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Plateau

16 core
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshall
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

3 spells
2 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis

Sideboard
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

I boarded like this:

-1 Skirk Prospector, -1 MWM, -1 Tarfire, -1 Lackey, -2 Piledriver, -1 Tin Street Hooligan
+1 Stingscourger, +2 Pithing Needle (Pernicious Deed, Garruk), +2 Surgical Extraction (Green Sun Zenit, Veteran, Cabal Therapy, Academy Rector), +2 Pyrokinesis (Lingering Souls)

A few games before this one, I played against the same Nic Fit list and won, thanks to the strategy applied like mentioned before. But it's a tough MU and I don't like it at all.

I see a lot of you guys playing 3x warchiefs in a build with 4 piledrivers.
Seems like a mistake to me, they synergize really well together in an aggressive list like yours.
1 Do you feel the lack of it or it is just correct actually playing 3?
2 Has anyone tryed the classic list with no finishers? (4piledrivers/no toolbox/no finishers/mono sting)

[Fourbirr]

Hi Marlock,

Nice that you asked. I will try to answer your questions, but it won't be one by one, because they are related and need dependently explanations. Sorry in advance if it's a bit long. But it's not like we have 1'000+ post every day :-)

Actually, I played a 4/4 Warchief/Piledriver split since Onslaught. At the moment, having 4 Piledrivers is absolutely true for me. If I cut just 1, I feel the difference and I wish I could matron for him a 4th time. In this list, Piledriver is a must and when I replaced him to test Bloodmark Mentor or Ember Hauler, it wasn't fine. Piledriver is much scarier than the other two's and more explosive. I realized that I just weakened the deck. Pro blue is so important for us against the tier 1 decks. He is actually the only finisher, Siege-Gang comes second. I couldn't recommend him more.

There is a lot of Plagues on MTGO or in my local meta to solve the TNN problem and all the 1/1's Grixis tokens. I wanted to win these matches and aside Wear//Tear or Krosan Grip, Chieftain is the only way we have to survive Plague. Furthermore he is a goblin, is matronable and gives haste.

I consider Chieftain belongs to the toolbox. The 1-of Chieftain in my list came after a long testing and he clearly improved my results. Until now, I never missed the 4th Warchief and it was never a problem to cast Piledriver. My losses are generally not due to the sole aspect of not being able to bring Piledriver on board or having haste. I consider the match in its entirety, not only aggro, cast Warchief, then cast Piledriver and swing. I like having a lot of different ways to solve a problem. Gempalm to kill Baleful Strix as well as Gurmag, Sharpshooter to deal the last damage to a missed Gempalm or make an elves stew, Prospector to make infinite mana with Mogg War Marshall, Tin Street for Batterskull or Baleful/Parasitic Strix, Stingscourger for Grigri or even Shaman if he is on the way for Lackey, Port against...anything. Each card of any goblin list isn't that strong alone, but benefit the synergy of the whole deck. If we can play well with the toolbox, then we have access to multiple answers in a wide spread of different situations.

As long as we can interact with our opponent, thanks to our toolbox, we give him problems that he needs to solve. With the full aggro approach, I feel vulnerable to the specific card that will shut down the aggro plan and there is then no back-up. I feel that the full aggro plan represent only 30% of all other possibilities the deck really can do.

Most of the time, victories come from all the 1/1s dealing 2 or 3 damages a turn. For these 1/1s to live longer, and to make a really scary turn with Piledriver, I found that matroning/vialing for Chieftain was a big problem for my opponent that he had to answer. I would say that 95% of the time, he takes a bolt which lets Piledriver, Sharpshooter or other buddies live longer. This is fine, because my opponent will have to find new answer for his next turn, because a Sharpshooter or living Piledriver can be REAL trouble, same goes for Krenko/Winstigator/Kiki Jikki.

This list is the process of creating a versatile way to fight against Grixis, Czech Pile, BUG Control. For my part, there are 4 changes that increased the winning ratio from 53% to 59% which was:

MD
- 4 basic mountains, instead of 3
- 1 Pyrokinesis main deck instead of the 4th Gempalm

SB
- 2 Pyroblast
- 2 Surgical Extraction

I had to make these changes, because my ratio was dropping day after day. I played almost against the same online players, so I knew that something was wrong with the list. I also changed a long played Tuktuk with Tin Street, but for now, I can't really say that it improved a lot the D&T MU, because I almost never play against them. The difference with Tuktuk is in his CMC. The hooligan rather shines against non D&T decks, like BUG midrange. He can answer an early TNN+Jitte. And if not, then he's still a 2/1 for R with Warchief in play to support Piledriver or steal 2 damages. In a very grindy meta, I find it good, it's better than a vanilla 2/2 for 2 like the last spoil ;-)

Have a nice testing week-end guys

[Marlock96]

Hi Marlock,

Nice that you asked. I will try to answer your questions, but it won't be one by one, because they are related and need dependently explanations. Sorry in advance if it's a bit long. But it's not like we have 1'000+ post every day :-)

Actually, I played a 4/4 Warchief/Piledriver split since Onslaught. At the moment, having 4 Piledrivers is absolutely true for me. If I cut just 1, I feel the difference and I wish I could matron for him a 4th time. In this list, Piledriver is a must and when I replaced him to test Bloodmark Mentor or Ember Hauler, it wasn't fine. Piledriver is much scarier than the other two's and more explosive. I realized that I just weakened the deck. Pro blue is so important for us against the tier 1 decks. He is actually the only finisher, Siege-Gang comes second. I couldn't recommend him more.

There is a lot of Plagues on MTGO or in my local meta to solve the TNN problem and all the 1/1's Grixis tokens. I wanted to win these matches and aside Wear//Tear or Krosan Grip, Chieftain is the only way we have to survive Plague. Furthermore he is a goblin, is matronable and gives haste.

I consider Chieftain belongs to the toolbox. The 1-of Chieftain in my list came after a long testing and he clearly improved my results. Until now, I never missed the 4th Warchief and it was never a problem to cast Piledriver. My losses are generally not due to the sole aspect of not being able to bring Piledriver on board or having haste. I consider the match in its entirety, not only aggro, cast Warchief, then cast Piledriver and swing. I like having a lot of different ways to solve a problem. Gempalm to kill Baleful Strix as well as Gurmag, Sharpshooter to deal the last damage to a missed Gempalm or make an elves stew, Prospector to make infinite mana with Mogg War Marshall, Tin Street for Batterskull or Baleful/Parasitic Strix, Stingscourger for Grigri or even Shaman if he is on the way for Lackey, Port against...anything. Each card of any goblin list isn't that strong alone, but benefit the synergy of the whole deck. If we can play well with the toolbox, then we have access to multiple answers in a wide spread of different situations.

As long as we can interact with our opponent, thanks to our toolbox, we give him problems that he needs to solve. With the full aggro approach, I feel vulnerable to the specific card that will shut down the aggro plan and there is then no back-up. I feel that the full aggro plan represent only 30% of all other possibilities the deck really can do.

Most of the time, victories come from all the 1/1s dealing 2 or 3 damages a turn. For these 1/1s to live longer, and to make a really scary turn with Piledriver, I found that matroning/vialing for Chieftain was a big problem for my opponent that he had to answer. I would say that 95% of the time, he takes a bolt which lets Piledriver, Sharpshooter or other buddies live longer. This is fine, because my opponent will have to find new answer for his next turn, because a Sharpshooter or living Piledriver can be REAL trouble, same goes for Krenko/Winstigator/Kiki Jikki.

This list is the process of creating a versatile way to fight against Grixis, Czech Pile, BUG Control. For my part, there are 4 changes that increased the winning ratio from 53% to 59% which was:

MD
- 4 basic mountains, instead of 3
- 1 Pyrokinesis main deck instead of the 4th Gempalm

SB
- 2 Pyroblast
- 2 Surgical Extraction

I had to make these changes, because my ratio was dropping day after day. I played almost against the same online players, so I knew that something was wrong with the list. I also changed a long played Tuktuk with Tin Street, but for now, I can't really say that it improved a lot the D&T MU, because I almost never play against them. The difference with Tuktuk is in his CMC. The hooligan rather shines against non D&T decks, like BUG midrange. He can answer an early TNN+Jitte. And if not, then he's still a 2/1 for R with Warchief in play to support Piledriver or steal 2 damages. In a very grindy meta, I find it good, it's better than a vanilla 2/2 for 2 like the last spoil ;-)

Have a nice testing week-end guys
Thanks!
I use to play 0 piledrivers in my list, just 'cause I always thought this deck as a "control" deck.
And I really feel comfortable with this list actually, going top on some large events. But all these TNN around are quite scary.. i'd like to bring piledrivers back, but they won't really synergize well with a toolbox list, which is my favourite way to play the deck.
I would probably try warren weirdings against TNNs instead of piledrivers, it solves really well the threat when needed and doesn't need a board to be scary, just solves the problem itself.

By the way, I'm testing a new card: active volcano as a sideboard option.
You may just say:"play reb you idiot", but here's a little explanation about the choice:
How many times do we have to keep our mana open to COUNTER a spell? How many times we use reb to kill something already in play instead?
I know that this can't solve TNN problem, but neither can reb. Usually, we end up tapping out our mana casting a creature or just reb gets countered, making us losing a turn.
What about having vial in play and bouncing an underground T2 instead?
I think that tempo is our biggest problem nowdays, and cutting a landrop seems a good option to me.
We play 4 waste and 4 ports, having more mana denial makes actually a madness for our opponent casting his cards, especially when all their CC are around 3. Besides that, it always can be used as removal for delver/jace as reb. I tested it with friends only but it seems working preatty well. What do you think about this option? :-)

[kombatkiwi]

play reb you idiot

In any hypothetical matchup that is so tempo-oriented that you would want to unsummon your opponent's land, Goblins doesn't have the means to apply pressure consistently enough to abuse this speed boost. In any matchup where this tempo doesn't matter you will be sad that you can't counter Show and Tell, TNN etc or that it's a card you can't hit with Ringleader.

To be honest I don't play Red Blast either but Volcano is just bad imo, sure you can still Vindicate jace with it, but people shouldn't be leaving jace in their deck vs you after sideboarding anyway

I agree with your thoughts on Weirding

I also agree with Fourbirr's reasoning for playing minimum 1 Chieftain maindeck (regardless of # of Warchief) but I don't agree that boarding in Pyrokinesis vs Lingering Souls makes sense.

In other news, my first experience with RR Grenzo is that it gave me a land and Counterspell and then my opponent played Karakas...

[menph]

but people shouldn't be leaving jace in their deck vs you after sideboarding anyway


not sure about this



Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

[Marlock96]

In any hypothetical matchup that is so tempo-oriented that you would want to unsummon your opponent's land, Goblins doesn't have the means to apply pressure consistently enough to abuse this speed boost. In any matchup where this tempo doesn't matter you will be sad that you can't counter Show and Tell, TNN etc or that it's a card you can't hit with ringleader

How many times did you counter a TNN or a SnT with reb? We just have to use our mana to deploy our threats, we can't afford to leave our mana open for an hypotetical counter the most of the times.
I tested a lot aginst SnT, and trust me, I did counter SnT like one time in 40 games. T1 lackey T2 active volcano seems a pretty reasonable play since you probably kill your opponent before they could do anything. (If they go off on T1 or 2 it doesn't really matter if you have reb or volcano)

[kombatkiwi]

How many times did you counter a TNN or a SnT with reb? We just have to use our mana to deploy our threats, we can't afford to leave our mana open for an hypotetical counter the most of the times.
I tested a lot aginst SnT, and trust me, I did counter SnT like one time in 40 games. T1 lackey T2 active volcano seems a pretty reasonable play since you probably kill your opponent before they could do anything. (If they go off on T1 or 2 it doesn't really matter if you have reb or volcano)

Well like I said, I also dislike reb. I don't think that a weird Boomerang/REB split card is worth playing either. Remember every Volcano you draw is 1 less attacker which makes it much less likely that you will kill the opponent quickly. (You're also spending a mana on the Volcano on turn 1 or 2, so you are also hindering your own development). For this card to actually be scary your draw has to be like mountain x2 , lackey, warchief, volcano, Piledriver, plus 1 more Piledriver/MWM etc. A huge factor of how I evaluate this card is that I think REB is already very bad vs non-combo matchups and Volcano is probably even worse against combo because it can't counter a spell. If you really wanted to play a card-disadvantage tempo swing that only really makes sense as a follow up to a lackey in a nut-draw vs blue combo then Active Volcano might even be worse than Raze.

Regarding Jace, he's very bad at protecting himself with the minus ability against both haste creatures and creatures with beneficial etb abilities, which Goblins is full of. Like any PW he's also not good against decks that can swarm the board. Your opponent might not have enough other threats in the 75 or they might think that they have enough sweepers that Jace is still a viable win condition, but in general I think this card is very bad against Goblins.

[Sandro95]

Since people were asking about it, I wrote about our matchup vs Reanimator (http:// https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2017/12/goblins-vs-reanimator-legacy-mtg/). Enjoy!

[1GoblinLackey]

Since people were asking about it, I wrote about our matchup vs Reanimator (http:// https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2017/12/goblins-vs-reanimator-legacy-mtg/). Enjoy!

Hey Sandro, thanks for writing the article. The link you posted is broken on my end, I found it by going through the website itself though. Your conclusions reflect my own that if you have some reasonable number of targeted sideboard slots, the matchup is probably 50/50 postboard. Problem is getting through game 1 with a win.

I think there's some things worth mentioning that I didn't see in the article.

-Evaluate Cavern highly in openers. Since most reanimator builds nowadays play the 4 Chancellors of Norn, breaking the tax with an uncounterable goblin is great. Even if they end up reanimating something that's not griselbrand or iona on t1, Lackey can force a staring match for a little bit, which definitely favors us.

-Beware show and tells postboard if you ever see a blue land! It's one of their more elegant ways to dodge graf cage and surgical. If they do go for this plan, discard spells get markedly better.

-Really good observation to nail the entombs. Even faithless looting is worth going after sometimes, since they usually can't flash it back and then reanimate in the same turn.

[Fourbirr]

Since people were asking about it, I wrote about our matchup vs Reanimator. Enjoy!

Thank you for writing this article and taking the time to answer Kodieyost's question. Good cmm1GoblinLackey to add a relevant point with Cavern versus Chancellor of the Annex.

Like pointed out, Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical Extraction or Leyline of the Void are almost auto-wins G2 and G3. Sadly, that's only 2 or 3 cards from the sideboard to bring in and chances are very low to find 1 in the opening hand or the next 2 mulligans. In my opinion, that's not enough and must be complemented by mana denial.

If we survive T1 & T2, thanks to a well played Surgical or Cabal Therapy, Rishadan Port + Thalia then give us many turns to live. It often leads to a victory, unless they have enough mana to hardcast a big boy with dark ritual/mox/petal chaining.

Reanimator is really scary G1, but postboard, I agree with 1GoblinLackey that it's almost 50/50. Here are some scenarios G1:

T1: Cavern + Lackey (dodging Chancellor)
T2: Lackey connects -> Warchief. Play mountain, cast Piledriver+MWM. PRAY! (very important)
or
T2: Lackey connects -> Warchief. Play mountain, cast Relic, let 1 mana open to exile the GY
T3: Cast any Goblin one at a time, leave 1 mana open all the time, we can win from there...

In G2 and 3:

T1: Mountain + Vial (Surgical in hand in back-up)
T2: Tick Vial, drop Rishadan Port -> Port Badlands or Swamp at opponent's upkeep. PRAY! (always)
T3: Vial @2, vial in Thalia, Wasteland opponent or cast Lackey or Relic/Cage -> Port Badlands or Swamp at opponent's upkeep, we can win from there...

Some people recommend to board Aether Vial out, because it's too slow against them. I strongly disagree. Like mentioned in your article, Reanimator is very low on mana. If used in adequacy with Port and Wasteland, Vial lets us bring our Gobs while atrophying their manabase. Of course, it implies that there is something to back-up our mana-denial plan like a Surgical/Relic or Thalia coming.

Guess what, even bringing Pyroblast is good if you see a blue spell, because it kills Tidespout Tyrant (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Tidespout Tyrant), counters Show&Tell in the Tin Fins version of the deck and deny their cantrips or counters.

Before changing to a monored list for testing reasons, and replace Thalia with Thorn of Amethyst, the white splash with Thalia and Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment Priest) gave very strong results against fast Reanimator. It was even a positive match-up. Priest was an auto-win and worked against Show & Tell & Dredge as well. She is a 2/2 creature and can be cast unexpectedly at instant speed. Sadly, weird cards testing dropped this ratio significantly until I changed back to the white splash which stabilized the situation.

[to continue...]

[Fourbirr]

Personally, I don't quite agree with the building a fast clock plan. It can't be fast enough to a T1 Griselbrand. So, if we can't be faster, they must be slower. So, I prefer the full control plan and mana denial does helps that. Tonight, I will look for some Reanimators matches played on MTGO and put them on Youtube. I really would like to show how efficient mana denial is.

To implement this plan, the number of answers must be increased. Here is a possible boarding plan:

-3 Ringleaders, -3 Gempalm, -2 MWM (no more Gempalm), -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Siege-Gang, -1 Tarfire
+3 Thalia, +2 Relic, +2 Pithing Needle (Griselbrand), +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Stingscourger, +1 Tin Street Hooligan (Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox)

It looks a bit like overboarded, but it's fine. Ringleader is too slow and with 9 non goblins, he won't be great. We won't use our removals as well and MWM is unable to block the big flyers. One questionable choice is Tarfire. It's nice to think that some tarfires can finish them after a double Griselbrand activation, but it almost never happens. Siege-Gang will never be cast and a T1 Lackey to SG is also very rare. The choice of Relic over Cage is, because I want to hunger DRS or Snapcaster Mage and make Tarmogoyf smaller.

Another card I could see to bring against Reanimator is Rest in Peace (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest in Peace) if you splash white. With Abrade and Ancient Grudge everywhere in Grixis lists at the moment, a non-artifact graveyard hate could improve our results globally. It's vulnerable only to Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip and Disenchant. It's not as fast as Cage against Reanimator, but it has text against other MU like Lands, Aggro/4C Loam, DRS/Snap decks.

I will give it a try.

[Fourbirr]

play reb you idiot

In any hypothetical matchup that is so tempo-oriented that you would want to unsummon your opponent's land, Goblins doesn't have the means to apply pressure consistently enough to abuse this speed boost. In any matchup where this tempo doesn't matter you will be sad that you can't counter Show and Tell, TNN etc or that it's a card you can't hit with Ringleader.
Absolutely. There is no way we can out tempo the best tempo decks with just bouncing a volcanic island. This is semantically not possible. In my opinion, it's 1 R wasted to do pretty nothing. Instead of bouncing lands, we can deny them to use their mana at key moments with Ports, we can counter their blue Creature with REB/Pyroblast and we can swing through them with Piledriver and its pro blue ability. Nothing to be scared of. I consider Grixis/UR Delver a favorable match-ups, and Czech Pile/4C even or more if we dodge Hymn to Tourach and meet not too many Kolaghan's chained with Snapcaster.

Actually, the problem with Goblins is that we are so weak against combo. There are 3 approaches:

1) ignore them and pray not to encounter them
2) have very specific and quick answers like Cage, Mindbreak Trap, Leyline of the Void, Chalice of the Void, Surgical Extraction, Cabal Therapy/Duress/Thoughtseize...
3) have less efficient, but more versatile answers: Relic, REB/Pyroblast, Pithing needle, ...

The last 2 choices will decrease our explosiveness and weakens our Ringleader, but give us a chance to survive as the first one doesn't. Pros of choice 2 is that it solves the problem on the spot if you are lucky enough to have it in your opening hand or draw it naturally. Cons are that you won't board these cards in none Combo MU, which means 7-8 of 10 games. Pros of choice 3 is quite the contrary, you can board these cards in a lot of annoying MU, but you need one more turn to survive.


To be honest I don't play Red Blast either but Volcano is just bad imo, sure you can still Vindicate jace with it, but people shouldn't be leaving jace in their deck vs you after sideboarding anyway
Do you mean Miracles people or 4-color people? For Miracles, I'll pretend I never read that :rolleyes: Sorry, but a Miracle player would never board Jace out against Goblins, ever! He is just too important to brainstorm and put Terminus on top. Otherwise, how can they avoid that we don't kill them on T3 or 4?
If you mean 4C, maybe they board Jace out, I don't know, but I think this would be wrong. A free Brainstorm every turn seems pretty sweet to me.


I agree with your thoughts on Weirding
I disagree :tongue:
Most of the time, Warren Weirding is a dead card with Baleful Strix, DRS and friends on board. If you managed to kill them before TNN enters, then you don't care about him anymore, because you have such an advantage on board that TNN won't be that relevant, exception done if equipped with Jitte. That's another story.

I don't know how you guys feel about TNN right now, but with 4 Piledrivers, he should be the one to be scared. I find DRS much more annoying.


I also agree with Fourbirr's reasoning for playing minimum 1 Chieftain maindeck (regardless of # of Warchief) but I don't agree that boarding in Pyrokinesis vs Lingering Souls makes sense.
Chieftain really improved some hard to win games. Boarding Pyrokinesis against Nic Fit was done, because I saw four 1/1 flying tokens that could have killed me in 3 turns. I find Pyrokinesis very good against Lingering Souls. That's 2 red cards for 0 to kill 4 unblockable creatures. I like it.


In other news, my first experience with RR Grenzo is that it gave me a land and Counterspell and then my opponent played Karakas...
Yeah, but Grenzo can do better. It's like if we stopped Piledriver, because he does just 1 damage alone. 1GoblinLackey had some cool experiences with him like casting Kolaghan's, DRS, Brainstorm. I found hilarious to kill a burn player with its own Fireblast or Lightning Bolts. But in my opinion, he is too cute. I prefer some angry Piledrivers and Moggs.

[Fourbirr]

There are some tricks: stingscouger is def better than weirding 90% of the time, but weirding dodges Iona. Graf cage is probablly the best card in the matchup, followed by surgical. A big reason why stingscouger is better is that once it echoes away, it essentially turns off exhume. Getting a Matron or sting into the yard is a great position to be in.

Yup =)

[Fourbirr]

Here are some feedbacks about my recent Bloodmark Mentor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bloodmark Mentor) and Ember Hauler (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ember Hauler) testings.

The conclusion is that they are not really what we need. At least, they had to be tested.

Bloodmark Mentor made me smile a couple of times like:

- D&T opponent controls a Mom and Thalia, 1 Piledriver and two 1/1 tokens attack. Thalia blocks PDD, Mom blocks a token and confidently give her protection from red. A vialed in Mentor at the end of blockers step messed with his plans to equip Thalia with Jitte.

- Elves player with 5 1/1s on board (yeah, I survived thanks to Mindbreak Trap on Natural Order) and a Nettle Sentinel saw some innocent tokens attacking him and prepared for the trade. Again, before damages, Vial brought a Mentor and lets him with his only Sentinel which then ate a tarfire. With not Matron or Sharpshooter, it was a nice feeling.

- Grixis: opponent leads with DRS, Delver and Gurmag. Never needed to deal with Young Pyro. In this match, Mentor was irrelevant, because Piledriver and Gempalm won all alone.

There are too many x/2s or bigger creatures in the format that justifies playing Mentor. To draw him more, I had 2 MD and shaved 1 Piledriver + 1 MWM. The turbo lack was considerable, and I feel like the deck was really clunky.

On Ember Hauler, the only satisfying time was when he killed a Gurmag like in textbook, with the help of Vial and a Mogg blocking it. But, almost every G2 and 3, I decided to board him out, because he was just uncastable. For RR, Grenzo is much better, or Instigator for those who like the aggro pile. In my opening hand, with Warchief and Lackey, I wish he was just something else. My manabase was not ready for him, too. Only 4 mountains was wrong to begin with, and I should have tried the monored version like I said, but...nah, even so, I never really wanted to cast him and it's anti-synergistic with Warchief. He has no place in a classic list and can't replace any other 2-drop goblin that we already have. At least now, after around 20 matches with him, I'm sure he is not the guy I want.

Maybe some other had better experiences. Let us know!

[Fourbirr]

Now, on a more meta level, I would like to advocate for Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast

I will not discuss the differences in this post. There are some articles on the net or posts discussing it on The Source, like here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22755-Red-Elemental-Blast-and-Pyroblast).

First of all, here is a non-exhaustive list of what blue spells you get to counter, destroy or kill in Legacy with exactly 1 red mana.

Creatures
True-Name Nemesis (https://deckbox.org/mtg/True-Name Nemesis)
Delver of Secrets (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Delver of Secrets)
Snapcaster Mage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapcaster Mage)
Vendilion Clique (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vendilion Clique)
Leovold, Emissary of Trest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leovold, Emissary of Trest)
Baleful Strix (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Baleful Strix)
Parasitic Strix (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Parasitic Strix)
Misthollow Griffin (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Misthollow Griffin)
Blighted Agent (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Blighted Agent)
Stormchaser Mage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Stormchaser Mage)
Izzet Staticaster (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Izzet Staticaster)
Tidespout Tyrant (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Tidespout Tyrant)
all Merfolks
more...

Planeswalker
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Jace, the Mind Sculptor)
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas)

Spells
Show and Tell (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Show and Tell)
Force of Will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force of Will)
Counterspell (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Counterspell)
Spell Pierce (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell Pierce)
Brainstorm (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Brainstorm)
Ponder (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ponder)
Stifle (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Stifle)
Standstill (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Standstill)
Manipulate Fate (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Manipulate Fate)
High Tide (https://deckbox.org/mtg/High Tide)
Hydroblast (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Hydroblast)
Blue Elemental Blast (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Blue Elemental Blast)
Careful Study (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Careful Study)
Flusterstorm (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flusterstorm)
Gitaxian Probe (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Gitaxian Probe)
Portent (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Portent)
Daze (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Daze) lol
more...

Enchantments
Counterbalance (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Counterbalance)
Back to Basics (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Back to Basics)
Omniscience (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Omniscience)
more...

[Fourbirr]

The domination of blue deck in the Legacy format is indisputable. At the last Eternal Week-end 2017 in Pittsburgh (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17343&f=LE), 7 of 8 in the top 8 are blue. No comment. If now is not the time for REB/Pyroblast, I don't know when this is?

Of course, it costs 1 red mana, but we are not forced to always keep 1 red open in case that something would happen that we don't like. It's just not possible. Hence, things that we don't like happens all the time in Magic anyway the moment we draw our 7 cards. The point is to let them happen less than you would like to. REB/Pyroblast allows it.

Early game, having a Cavern or playing around Daze is crucial. At this moment, it's unrealistic to have mana open for REB/Pyroblast and we prefer to cast our threats to get rid of their removals. Nobody denies that. I experienced that REB/Pyroblast really shine at midgame. Countering a Snapcaster Mage staring at Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay or Hymn To Tourach is game changing. As is killing Leovold with 1 red mana, and spare Pyrokinesis or Gempalm for the rest of their board. Against TES/ANT, countering a Ponder after a Brainstorm is so much value.

Midgame, we most likely have this exact one more mana open. On T4-5 and 4 manas, we don't always get to cast a Ringleader. I see more and more Hydroblast in Stoneblade, Food Griffin, Miracle, Merfolk, even some 4C Control and Sneak&Show. Most of the time, we can't protect a Warchief or Piledriver from Hydroblast, because we don't see it coming. But what's true for us is also true for them. Our blue opponents don't see REB/Pyroblast coming and it catches them off guard all the time.

Against Omni-tell or Sneak&Show, one of our worst Match-ups, I'm really happy to have 1 red open if it can counter a S&T or a Ponder. They tend to keep a hand with cantrips and a FoW to be sure to cast S&T or Sneak Attack anyway. Against us, S&T players don't hesitate to counter our T1 Vial. Instead of playing around Daze, we play around FoW, wait T2, cast Cage/Needle Daze-proof AND Force-proof. I think it's a necessary back-up for one of our only out. With a Prospector in play, we even can cast it with no red open at all. The surprise effect is just remarkable. Our opponent never expect that. Show&Tell is so important for them to cast, but they don't expect a counter from us. So maybe, they will keep a hand without any counter. So, it gives us a certain advantage on how good is their opening 7.

Another Pro of REB/Pyroblast right now is that we don't have to change our manabase.

I really think that REB/PYroblast is good at the moment and your comments would be much appreciated.

[kombatkiwi]

I can't deny that legacy is full of blue cards. The problem with playing REB just to trade with some random blue card (you are listing all of this stuff like Blighted Agent, Delver etc) is that there are plenty of Goblins that will also trade with these cards, and crucially Goblin cards can be drawn off Ringleader whereas REB cannot.

You can't argue against Weirding for being 'dead' when your opponent has Baleful Strix or DRS, and then list Baleful Strix as a reason to be playing Red Blast. ("If you managed to kill them before TNN enters, then you don't care about him anymore." Kill them with what? A card like Warren Weirding maybe?) Listing all this stuff like counterspell that you can Red Blast is equally dumb, instead of Red Blasting their counter why not just play another Goblin. Putting cantrips in this list is equally stupid for the same reason.

There ARE blue cards that CAN'T be traded for Goblins (like Show and Tell for example) and boarding in REB to fight these is fine. The problem is that if you need non-Goblin cards to fight on this axis then you can also play discard, which is less narrow (hits Sneak Attack, Dark Ritual/Infernal Tutor/Ad Naus, Reanimate, etc). If you insist on playing Mono R (for whatever reason, I'm not trying to imply this is 100% wrong but I don't think it's correct at the moment) then you probably still need some way to interact on the stack or with your opponent's hand and therefore Red Blast seems like it would be the only option.

If miracles feels that they have to play Jace as a 4 mana Brainstorm to enable their removal, then you are not sad about this. Maybe saying your opponent should board it out was too extreme, my point is that the Goblins deck is already well equipped to deal with Jace, you don't need to be looking for specific cards to board in that answer it.

You can't take the control role vs Rector Nic Fit because as soon as your opponent plays Cruel Reality/Splendor/Death's Hold you effectively lose on the spot. If you want to trade 2 cards for your opponent's 1 Souls they will be very happy about this because not only is it card advantage for them but that's 2 non-threat cards you threw away, which gives them more time to ramp and set up Rector. You can argue that Pyrokinesis helps the aggro plan by allowing you to attack through Souls, but if you really believed this then boarding out MWM and Piledriver doesn't make sense.

The fact that Piledriver only attacks for 1 by itself is a very good reason to not play it. It's not correct to only evaluate cards by "What is the best thing it can possibly do" but also "how frequently does it achieve that thing", "how good is it in situations where I am behind vs situations where I am already winning", and so on.

[Fourbirr]

I can't deny that legacy is full of blue cards. The problem with playing REB just to trade with some random blue card (you are listing all of this stuff like Blighted Agent, Delver etc) is that there are plenty of Goblins that will also trade with these cards, and crucially Goblin cards can be drawn off Ringleader whereas REB cannot.
This listing doesn't show some "random" blue cards. It shows blue cards played by the most popular decks in Legacy.

I don't consider Ringleader essential against combo. As an example, let's take Show&Tell, since we board a lot of cards against it, Ringleader blanks pretty often. A 2/2 haste goblin is still a goblin, but with 4 manas, there are better play to do against Show&Tell. I feel really fine to have a REB waiting for their Show&Tell/Omniscience or even Ponder/BS if they struggle to find a red source for Sneak Attack or their cheat sorcery.

We don't trade against Delver, almost never. Unflipped, they let the damages go through, exception done for Lackey. When flipped, we have Gempalm, Tarfire and Pyrokinesis left. It doesn't hurt to also have Pyroblast for its versatility.


You can't argue against Weirding for being 'dead' when your opponent has Baleful Strix or DRS, and then list Baleful Strix as a reason to be playing Red Blast.
Ok, let me clarify this. This list just lists blue cards in Legacy that matters to us and have a direct impact on the flow of the game. Basically, I agree that we can ignore most of the counters, because we have Cavern and Vial. We can also ignore blue Planeswalker, because chances are high that we hit them in the face. Same goes for blue creatures. We can ignore cantrips, because we have Matron and Ringleader. We can ignore blue enchantments, because Counterbalance, Standstill, Back to Basics don't really matter against us.

Why play REB/Pyroblast?


Because I want to beat the best decks like 4C Control/Grixis/Stoneblade all the time.
Because it catches my opponent off guard. After the 1st one, we can bluff and let one red open if not needed. It makes their decision harder with a Sword of Damocles upon his head.


When?

Essentially on the draw and when we switch to a full control role.


We never play in Goldfish mode and developing our aggro plan like we would love to. Personally, I mainly play Pyroblast to counter a Snapcaster Mage, to "force" a key goblin at a critical moment, to stop the bleeding caused by Jace's +2 ability after a Terminus, to stun my opponent while he is struggling with cantrips to find his 4th color.


("If you managed to kill them before TNN enters, then you don't care about him anymore." Kill them with what? A card like Warren Weirding maybe?)
No, that's not what I wrote. If we manage to kill DRS, Strix or whatever so that they only have TNN left, we don't really care to Warren Weirding him, because our position is fine. We have time to start building a big swing with Piledriver.


Listing all this stuff like counterspell that you can Red Blast is equally dumb, instead of Red Blasting their counter why not just play another Goblin.
If Goblins would win with Goblins only, then why do goblins players play non-goblins cards in every Goblin lists out there? With this approach, Death & Taxes would not play equipments, only humans. Elves would not play Abrupt Decay, only Elves, and so on...
Playing a key goblin mid or late game is exactly what I want to do. It's so good when there is a REB/Pyroblast in back-up.


Putting cantrips in this list is equally stupid for the same reason.
It's not my intention to play REB//Pyroblast to counter cantrips, that's not what I wrote. Occasionnally, if we have it in hand for whatever reason we had to board it in, it can counter cantrips, sure.


There ARE blue cards that CAN'T be traded for Goblins (like Show and Tell for example) and boarding in REB to fight these is fine. The problem is that if you need non-Goblin cards to fight on this axis then you can also play discard, which is less narrow (hits Sneak Attack, Dark Ritual/Infernal Tutor/Ad Naus, Reanimate, etc).
Of course, discard is another strong approach. I just don't like the black splash. I tried it in the past, but looking for a black source screw me too many times while staring at these 2 beautiful Cabal Therapies. Some players are successful with black, so it's not my intention to discourage people not to try it. I prefer white, because Thalia can be cast with 5-6 fetch lands, 1 Plateau or 4 Caverns or 4 vials. That's 14-15 ways to bring her which make her very castable.


If you insist on playing Mono R (for whatever reason, I'm not trying to imply this is 100% wrong but I don't think it's correct at the moment) then you probably still need some way to interact on the stack or with your opponent's hand and therefore Red Blast seems like it would be the only option.
No, I'm not running monored. Older posts show that I splash white for Thalia, and green for Tin Street Hooligan. My current list is in my signature.


If miracles feels that they have to play Jace as a 4 mana Brainstorm to enable their removal, then you are not sad about this. Maybe saying your opponent should board it out was too extreme, my point is that the Goblins deck is already well equipped to deal with Jace, you don't need to be looking for specific cards to board in that answer it.
Well, it's not like Miracles, Stoneblade ore Standstill are auto-wins. Against a good player, it's still a scary match-up that can degenerate very quickly with Monastery Mentor. He is enough trouble to deal with at the first place. Our main goal is then to answer him and look for a Gempalm. Jace +2 wreck our draws. With a Mentor in play, we have one turn, maybe 2 to live before he becomes uncontrollable. I don't want Jace to bottom Gempalm or Pyrokinesis at this moment.


You can't take the control role vs Rector Nic Fit because as soon as your opponent plays Cruel Reality/Splendor/Death's Hold you effectively lose on the spot. If you want to trade 2 cards for your opponent's 1 Souls they will be very happy about this because not only is it card advantage for them but that's 2 non-threat cards you threw away, which gives them more time to ramp and set up Rector. You can argue that Pyrokinesis helps the aggro plan by allowing you to attack through Souls but if you really believed this then boarding out MWM and Piledriver doesn't make sense.
Good point here, I agree with you. Usually, I never board in Pyrokinesis against decks running Cabal Therapy like Jund. I should remember it for the next time against Nic Fit. This was wrong.


The fact that Piledriver only attacks for 1 by itself is a very good reason to not play it. It's not correct to only evaluate cards by "What is the best thing it can possibly do" but also "how frequently does it achieve that thing", "how good is it in situations where I am behind vs situations where I am already winning", and so on.
Now I understand why you seem so concerned by TNN. I cannot enough recommend to play the full Piledriver playset. The difference is just remarkable and I bet your TNN opponent will be the one to be scared, not you :wink:

Speaking of bringing one more goblin instead of playing REB/Pyroblast, ok, let's bring Piledriver. Not longer than yesterday, my Stoneblade opponent scooped after bringing the 3rd Piledriver in T4. Someone said easy win?

Guys, what are your other thoughts about REB/Pyroblast?

[Marlock96]

Well like I said, I also dislike reb. I don't think that a weird Boomerang/REB split card is worth playing either. Remember every Volcano you draw is 1 less attacker which makes it much less likely that you will kill the opponent quickly. (You're also spending a mana on the Volcano on turn 1 or 2, so you are also hindering your own development). For this card to actually be scary your draw has to be like mountain x2 , lackey, warchief, volcano, Piledriver, plus 1 more Piledriver/MWM etc. A huge factor of how I evaluate this card is that I think REB is already very bad vs non-combo matchups and Volcano is probably even worse against combo because it can't counter a spell. If you really wanted to play a card-disadvantage tempo swing that only really makes sense as a follow up to a lackey in a nut-draw vs blue combo then Active Volcano might even be worse than Raze.

Regarding Jace, he's very bad at protecting himself with the minus ability against both haste creatures and creatures with beneficial etb abilities, which Goblins is full of. Like any PW he's also not good against decks that can swarm the board. Your opponent might not have enough other threats in the 75 or they might think that they have enough sweepers that Jace is still a viable win condition, but in general I think this card is very bad against Goblins.
It's not supposed to act like a reb. I introduced this card because I think that mana denial is probably our strongest strategy nowdays.
It's not a 5th wasteland or a strange boomerang, it just solves blue threats and can make tempo advantage if needed..
You just said that reb isn't good enough for combo decks, and that's why we play black in form of discards, since no goblin-list play only rebs as sideboard option for combo.
Combined with wasteland or port It can make a vial tick to 3 before you even see a kholagan.
But that's my opinion, Just suggesting you to give it a try against 4c or grixis (: (Bouncing their untapped lands in eot from nowere makes your turns really really spicy)

[kombatkiwi]

No, that's not what I wrote. If we manage to kill DRS, Strix or whatever so that they only have TNN left, we don't really care to Warren Weirding him, because our position is fine. We have time to start building a big swing with Piledriver.
Sorry, this is what I mean: You seem to be happy to use removal on DRS and Strix, because you say that if your opponent has nothing left and plays TNN on an empty board then the TNN isn't scary. Therefore, why would you be sad about playing Warren Weirding (a removal) and killing a DRS or a Strix? If weirding acts as an answer to TNN also, then even better. Just because it won't always kill like a TNN 100% of the time doesn't mean the card is bad.


If Goblins would win with Goblins only, then why do goblins players play non-goblins cards in every Goblin lists out there? With this approach, Death & Taxes would not play equipments, only humans. Elves would not play Abrupt Decay, only Elves, and so on...
Playing a key goblin mid or late game is exactly what I want to do. It's so good when there is a REB/Pyroblast in back-up.

DNT and Elves don't play a card that says 'look at the top 4 cards and put all equipments into your hand' or 'look at the top 4 and put all Elves in your hand'.

Why do you think Goblins is potentially a viable deck in legacy? My reasoning is the following:

Grixis Delver is the most popular legacy deck, we could call it the 'default' legacy deck playing 'normal' magic with a mix of creatures, interactive cards etc. Call this 'scissors'. Traditionally the way to beat 'normal' magic matchups is either to be a lot faster or to go a bit bigger. You can't go a lot faster than a FoW/Daze deck, so the response has been the rise of 4 color / Czech Pile, with slightly slower card advantage elements (Leovold, Hymn, Snapcaster etc). This is 'rock'. The sacrifice made by Czech Pile is that because of these more clunky elements it probably has a slightly worse fast combo matchup (it loses to 'paper').

Obviously none of these matchups are too lopsided but the general trend is there.

Where does Goblins fit in the metagame? The way I see it is that it's an even more 'Rocky' version of Czech Pile:
A) Goblins SHOULD still be favoured against Delver decks for the same reason that Czech Pile is, the card advantage elements. (Admittedly Goblins will have a slightly harder time because Goblins is arguably too greedy here, I.e. there is more of a chance that Delver can win by 'going under' the Goblins player)
B) Goblins SHOULD be favoured against Czech Pile and other midrange/control decks because it is more greedy than them (when I say greedy I mean that Goblins plays a high number of slow card-advantage cards like Matron and Ringleader etc)
C) Goblins will have a bad matchup vs combo because it is too greedy (Goblins can't interact on the stack or with the opponent's hand so Ringleader/Matron advantage is irrelevant, and Legacy combo decks will go off before Goblins can race them)

Goblins can only be a viable deck if both A and B are true and if the significance of C is minimized (either because you find a way to make the combo matchups close enough or because the metagame is at a point where combo is very unpopular).

The reason why I disagree with boarding in REB in non-combo matchups is because you are nerfing the greedy part of the deck (Ringleader triggers), which is the whole reason to play the deck in the first place.

The obvious counterargument to this point is "You just said that being too greedy is a liability vs Delver, so why shouldn't I try to reduce the card advantage aspect in favour of being more interactive?" (by boarding in REB and boarding out a Goblin). In that case, what are you boarding out? I still don't think you want to board out Ringleader because it's too strong for finding Gempalm and Tarfire (and creatures), so what other cards are worth boarding out over Pyroblast? From your list Probably Tin-Street and Prospector are the worst cards vs Delver and you can make a case for boarding out Lackey vs DRS decks. Maybe if you board in REB for these cards your win % will go up slightly. I'm not saying that's impossible, and if you do have REB in your sideboard and can increase your win percentage by boarding it in then of course you should do it. What I am wary of is that if people think that a ton of non-goblin cards need to be boarded in to have a favourable matchup vs Delver (I don't know what exactly you board in this matchup, but on your decklist page you mention boarding Relic vs DRS, and you also have multiple Pyroblasts and Thalias) then it shows that 'Premise A' isn't true and therefore why even play Goblins at all? It would only make sense in an extremely grindy attrition metagame (and I don't think Delver is going away anytime soon). I think you can change your maindeck to be better against Delver while still having a build that is good against control/midrange (only 2 Tarfire is a bit of a red flag to me tbh).

In addition, I only mentioned Delver specifically because against the non-aggro non-combo blue decks bringing in REB is even worse. They give you enough time to get your card advantage engine online so you don't need to stop any early plays, you shouldn't be worried about counters with Vial and Cavern, maybe vs Snapcaster it's worth it? But again, you need to be careful what you are boarding out. You can stop Snap/Plow or Snap/K-Command with a REB but another way to not fall behind in the face of this removal is to hit another Goblin off your Ringleader, and having another goblin enables proactive plays that can be done in any situation (compared to sitting on a REB and waiting for the opponent to do something).

[Fourbirr]

I like a lot what you wrote. The example with rock-paper-scissors if nice. On the Aggro beats Control beats Combo topic, I found this map (http://i.imgur.com/2hbthoE.png).

Unfortunately, it does not take into account that we switch role all the time. Sometimes, even during the same turn depending of the interaction we meet. We find ourselves constantly torn between those roles.That's the famous "Who's the beatdown" question we should ask ourselves all the time.


...so what other cards are worth boarding out over Pyroblast? From your list Probably Tin-Street and Prospector are the worst cards vs Delver and you can make a case for boarding out Lackey vs DRS decks.
Generally, I think it's a bad idea to board a 1-of and there must be a very good reason to do so. I was always punished after boarding out a Tin Street/Tuktuk against Grixis then met Null Rod or Needle. If I lost G1, I'll prefer to let TSH/Tuktuk in MD. Otherwise, I can be a little bit more careless and board him out.

Against Grixis, I essentially bring Pyroblast on the draw and board like this:

[On the draw]
-4 Lackey
+2 Pyroblast, +2 Relic

[On the Play]
-1 MWM, -1 Piledriver
+2 Pyrokinesis

There is still 24-25 goblins main deck which is more than enough to deal damages. I don't board

Against 4C control/Czech Pile, I don't like to bring Pyrokinesis on the draw, because of the card disadvantage it occurs, especially after losing G1. Hymn or Toughtseize is already enough to strip my hand and I board like this:

[On the draw]
-4 Lackey, -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Pyrokinesis
+2 Pyroblast, +2 Relic, +2 Thalia (to delay them from Kolaghan's)

[On the play]
-1 Sharpshooter, -1 MWM, -1 Prospector
+2 Pyrokinesis, +1 TSH/Tuktuk (Jitte)

I think Sharpshooter sub-optimal in this matchup, because he would trigger Leovold all the time. Along with Sharpshooter, I also tend to board Prospector out.


Maybe if you board in REB for these cards your win % will go up slightly.
That's precisely what I try to explain. Since Pyroblast increased slightly my win % lately, I wanted to share my impressions with you guys and let you know why I think that REB/Pyroblast are good at the moment.

No problem if it's not convincing. I convinced myself :smile:

[Quackers]

Hey fellow Gobbos,

This next Sunday I'm participating in our local Legacy Masters Invitational. 16 Man tournament. So of course throughout the year most people know what decks will be there. I'm already set on my list and sideboard of which I will post after the tournament, however I thought it might be fun to see how others may construct their sideboard for the meta as I believe it will be.

2 Elves
1 Other Goblins Player
2 Infect
1 Lands
1 Turbo Depths
2 Storm
1 Grixis Control
1 U/R Delver
1 Other Delver Variant
1 4c Loam
1 U/G Titan Post
2 Unknown Decks

Have fun, Warchiefs and Chieftains.

[1GoblinLackey]

Hey fellow Gobbos,

This next Sunday I'm participating in our local Legacy Masters Invitational. 16 Man tournament. So of course throughout the year most people know what decks will be there. I'm already set on my list and sideboard of which I will post after the tournament, however I thought it might be fun to see how others may construct their sideboard for the meta as I believe it will be.

2 Elves
1 Other Goblins Player
2 Infect
1 Lands
1 Turbo Depths
2 Storm
1 Grixis Control
1 U/R Delver
1 Other Delver Variant
1 4c Loam
1 U/G Titan Post
2 Unknown Decks

Have fun, Warchiefs and Chieftains.

Good luck at the event! Assuming you're on mono red like you normally are (based on prior forum posts), I'd probably go with something like this:
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Blood Moon
3 Chalice
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic
2 Surgical Extraction

Blood Moons seem particularly good in your meta; Lands, Loam, Grixis Control, Turbo Depths, Post, and Infect all hate seeing blood moon. Multiple Stingscourgers also looks good here, so maybe a 2nd one in the board would be worth a slot.

Chalice obviously helps with a lot of combo decks and Delver/Infect/Elves. I've found it's good against Lands on the play to turn off crop rotation, exploration, and gamble as well.

Pithing Needle has a lot of targets here: Most of the cards in Lands/4c Loam/Turbo Depths/Post are worth needling, and it's great against Elves.

Pyrokinesis cleans up a lot of the small creature strategies. Maybe should be 3 over the 3rd needle? Hard to say.

Relic; don't want to be stuck without a way to nuke a graveyard. Just a generally applicable card in a lot of matchups. Not stellar, but fulfills an important role.

Surgical; lights out for turbo depths, and can provide protection against a fast storm draw. Gives you some outs to a punishing fire loop.

Relic is probably the weakest card in the board against the field here, but I think it's worth it. Other option would be to include some toolbox goblins.

[Marlock96]

Hey fellow Gobbos,

This next Sunday I'm participating in our local Legacy Masters Invitational. 16 Man tournament. So of course throughout the year most people know what decks will be there. I'm already set on my list and sideboard of which I will post after the tournament, however I thought it might be fun to see how others may construct their sideboard for the meta as I believe it will be.

2 Elves
1 Other Goblins Player
2 Infect
1 Lands
1 Turbo Depths
2 Storm
1 Grixis Control
1 U/R Delver
1 Other Delver Variant
1 4c Loam
1 U/G Titan Post
2 Unknown Decks

Have fun, Warchiefs and Chieftains.
It really depends on your list, but I suggest:
3 pyokinesis
2 blood moons
3 surgical extraction
1 sharpshooter (should see your list)
1 tuk tuk ("" "")
2 needle
3 thorn of amethyst/chalices (maybe chalices are better)

[Fourbirr]

Hey fellow Gobbos,

This next Sunday I'm participating in our local Legacy Masters Invitational. 16 Man tournament. So of course throughout the year most people know what decks will be there. I'm already set on my list and sideboard of which I will post after the tournament, however I thought it might be fun to see how others may construct their sideboard for the meta as I believe it will be.

2 Elves
1 Other Goblins Player
2 Infect
1 Lands
1 Turbo Depths
2 Storm
1 Grixis Control
1 U/R Delver
1 Other Delver Variant
1 4c Loam
1 U/G Titan Post
2 Unknown Decks

Have fun, Warchiefs and Chieftains.
Hi Quackers,

Could you post the list you'll be running ?

Envoyé de mon FP2 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Quackers]

Here is my mainboard.
4 waste
4 cavern
4 ports
10 mountain

4 lackey
4 matron
4 ringleader
4 warchief
2 chieftain
2 mwm
1 siege gang
1 krenko
1 lightning crafter
1 stingscourger
1 chirurgeon
1 tuk tuk
1 Kiki-Jiki

2 gempalm
4 vial
4 tarfire

[jonesypunk]

Just had a "kitchen table" BR Goblins Vs BR Reanimate with a friend and it wasnt that bad we played a total of 10 matches and of those 2 games without sideboard, and of course 2 easy wins for BR Reanimate, the other 8 with sideboards and Goblins went 6-2, making a positive record of 6-4.

Two of the most important cards in the matches definitely where Wasteland and Port, too powerful due to few lands that they have.

I side in: 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Cabal therapy, 1 Stingscourger. Cabal therapy was only used and good in 1 match, i think if i dind t bring them won t do much difference.

I sided out: 3 Tarfires, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Goblin chirurgeon, 1 Goblin Ringleador.

Notes:
Tuktuk Scrapper despite of being bad, destroyed a chrome mox, giving victory in long game.

Tried Earwig Squad a few games but felt terrible.

Sent from my Power_2 using Tapatalk

[Fourbirr]

Here is my mainboard.
4 waste
4 cavern
4 ports
10 mountain

4 lackey
4 matron
4 ringleader
4 warchief
2 chieftain
2 mwm
1 siege gang
1 krenko
1 lightning crafter
1 stingscourger
1 chirurgeon
1 tuk tuk
1 Kiki-Jiki

2 gempalm
4 vial
4 tarfire

Thank you for the list. I had to count it 3 times to be sure, but this list has 59 cards!

I won't discuss the list here, since it wasn't the question, but it seems to have really slow starts and the curve is high.

According to the list of decks you expect to encounter, half of them are creature decks:

2 Elves
1 Other Goblins Player
2 Infect
1 Grixis Control
1 U/R Delver
1 Other Delver Variant

This list is not prepared to fight 2 elves and 2 infects decks. G1 is inevitably a loss. I definitely fill the last slot with Sharpshooter. He will helps you greatly against Grixis and the mirror, too.

You'll need 3 Pyrokinesis in the 75. Having 1 main deck instead of 1 tarfire seems a must.

If you expect 1 Lands, 1 Turbo Depths and 1 U/G Titan Post, you'll also need a second Stingscourger for sure.

A possible sideboard could be:

2 Pyrokinesis (if 1 MD, otherwise run 3)
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage (Elves, Storm: Past in Flames)
1 Tuktuk
1 Stingscourger
2 Pithing Needle
3 Thorn of Amethyst

If you plan to run Chalice of the Void @1 against Elves or Infect, all tarfires will be uncastable, when you'll need them.

Against Storm, Chalice is not necessarily an auto win. Assuming you lost G1 and starts G2 on the play, a CotV @0 does not prevent your opponent to go off with Dark and Cabal Rituals. Assuming you survive T1, putting a Chalice on 1 does not prevent they go off with Lotus Petals, Chrome Mox and LED.

TL;DR: If you can't cast Chalice on 1 on T1, don't play it.

Capitalize on Surviving T1 with Surgical Extraction and continue with Thorn.

Good luck for the event and represent Goblins ;-)

Envoyé de mon FP2 en utilisant Tapatalk

[1GoblinLackey]

Hi Menph,

Thank you for sharing the link. I was playing a league on MTGO and didn't know it was streamed. Game 1, I was really slow, because this Nic Fit version was new to me and I didn't know how to interact. The version I know has Veteran Explorer, Siege Rhino, Tireless Tracker as creatures.

After the mulligan, my hand was 2 lands, 2 lackeys, 1 Sharpshooter and 1 Piledriver, which is absolutely keepable. Normally, against a midrange deck like Nic Fit, my strategy is to not touch Veteran Explore, because they have to find a Therapy to sacrifice him. I think it's usually better to build a board, then rush them, because we don't want to let them cast things that we can't deal with on turn 4 or 5.

The thing is that I was afraid by the double Cabal Therapy+Veteran sac which would have left me with pretty nothing in hand. I shouldn't have attacked Veteran on T2 without a Rishadan Port in backup to cut the black. Later on, chaining Academy Rector was too much that I could manage. G2, I didn't Matron for Tarfire, because I did not have it. G3, Therapy ripped my hand. Not much that I could do, anyway.

My list was:

23 lands
4 Wastelands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Fetches
4 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Plateau

16 core
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshall
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

3 spells
2 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis

Sideboard
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

I boarded like this:

-1 Skirk Prospector, -1 MWM, -1 Tarfire, -1 Lackey, -2 Piledriver, -1 Tin Street Hooligan
+1 Stingscourger, +2 Pithing Needle (Pernicious Deed, Garruk), +2 Surgical Extraction (Green Sun Zenit, Veteran, Cabal Therapy, Academy Rector), +2 Pyrokinesis (Lingering Souls)

A few games before this one, I played against the same Nic Fit list and won, thanks to the strategy applied like mentioned before. But it's a tough MU and I don't like it at all.

Fourbirr, I have some advice for you for Nic Fit, coming from someone who used to play against it at my LGS.

I actually think this matchup is pretty solid, particularly the version with rector that is popular now, probably better than the more P. Deed centered versions with giant monsters like Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Grave Titan. Here are my boarding thoughts.

-Board out Vial. It just gets destroyed by deed, and we really don't need the mana. Maintaining card advantage in the face of board wipes is essential.
-connected to the last idea, we can really use the mana from vet explorer. I've willingly traded lackey into an explorer. We can abuse the mana ramp just as much as they can, maybe even more.
-I don't think surgical is at all necessary. We really can outgrind nic fit. Once the lands all get pulled out by explorer and vial gets cut, Ringleader hits 3-4 gobs a LOT. I'd sooner board in Relic than Surgical because it's at least not card disadvantage and can turn off half of therapy or souls. RIP would be the best option here if you're splashing white.

[kombatkiwi]

Fourbirr, I have some advice for you for Nic Fit, coming from someone who used to play against it at my LGS.

I actually think this matchup is pretty solid, particularly the version with rector that is popular now, probably better than the more P. Deed centered versions with giant monsters like Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Grave Titan. Here are my boarding thoughts.

-Board out Vial. It just gets destroyed by deed, and we really don't need the mana. Maintaining card advantage in the face of board wipes is essential.
-connected to the last idea, we can really use the mana from vet explorer. I've willingly traded lackey into an explorer. We can abuse the mana ramp just as much as they can, maybe even more.
-I don't think surgical is at all necessary. We really can outgrind nic fit. Once the lands all get pulled out by explorer and vial gets cut, Ringleader hits 3-4 gobs a LOT. I'd sooner board in Relic than Surgical because it's at least not card disadvantage and can turn off half of therapy or souls. RIP would be the best option here if you're splashing white.

As I said in a recent post, you can't outgrind Rector Fit because Goblins is never going to beat an Overwhelming Splendor. Therefore, Surgical is very important. (You can respond to the Rector trigger by Extracting the Rector, which causes the ability to fizzle and also ensures your opponent won't play any more Rectors for the rest of the game).

For example Elspeth -3 doesn't even kill any Goblins and the 3 Soldiers can die to Sharpshooter. Most of the time I would much rather my opponent be trying to resolve 6 mana Elspeth than 5 mana Curse of Death's Hold, for example. I agree that boarding out vial is probably right.

[Fourbirr]

Dear 1GoblinLackey, thanks for sharing some tips.


Fourbirr, I have some advice for you for Nic Fit, coming from someone who used to play against it at my LGS.

I actually think this matchup is pretty solid, particularly the version with rector that is popular now, probably better than the more P. Deed centered versions with giant monsters like Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Grave Titan. Here are my boarding thoughts.

-Board out Vial. It just gets destroyed by deed, and we really don't need the mana. Maintaining card advantage in the face of board wipes is essential.
-connected to the last idea, we can really use the mana from vet explorer. I've willingly traded lackey into an explorer. We can abuse the mana ramp just as much as they can, maybe even more.

I must admit I have never tried to board out Vial. I like to have a Vial to cheat goblins while denying opponent's manabase with Port. I feel that Vial is never disappointing or slow, even against fast combo like Reanimator, TES/ANT, Elves or Infect. At the moment, it's not an option, especially against midrange decks like Nic Fit.


I don't think surgical is at all necessary. We really can outgrind nic fit. Once the lands all get pulled out by explorer and vial gets cut, Ringleader hits 3-4 gobs a LOT. I'd sooner board in Relic than Surgical because it's at least not card disadvantage and can turn off half of therapy or souls. RIP would be the best option here if you're splashing white.

Hmmm, interesting. I think quite the contrary. Actually, my last Nic Fit Rector opponent seemed to fear Surgical a lot. A Surgical on Veteran, Rector or Cabal Therapy is a real knock-out for them. This stops their mana acceleration, respectively their disruption. It gives us more time to cast our team until they are still trying to look for lands to cast their fatties.

Your proposed tactic to hit veteran in the face with Lackey would work real nice in a list with a lot of basics. Sadly, splashing green and white force to be very careful in the mana sequencing, because there are only 3-4 basics. Bringing duals and colorless lands first, so that a trade with veteran brings the basics profitably. In a monored build, I guess it's less of a problem. We probably get 2 goblins off a veteran trade. Next time, I'll rather let the veteran live, and cast/vial as many gobs as possible to later overwhelm them.

For the white splash, the Rest in Peace solution is quite appealing, but it's double edged if they have the Helm of Obedience combo, like in this list (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17593&d=309017&f=LE) of a guy I know. Therefore, Relic seems safer.

For you who splash black, Cabal or Thoughtseize must be quite juicy. G2, T1 Cabal naming Veteran, Surgical him. Yummy!

I realized that kombatkiwi advice NOT to board in Pyrokinesis is absolutely right. This MU should be approached like a Jund or BUG/4C Control. Cabal+Veteran with Hymn to Tourach hurt too much. If we discard our gobs, it's worth.

EDIT [22.12.2017 6 AM GMT+1]
Actually, Lingering Souls is a job for Sharpshooter. There is no need for Pyrokinesis.

[1GoblinLackey]

As I said in a recent post, you can't outgrind Rector Fit because Goblins is never going to beat an Overwhelming Splendor. Therefore, Surgical is very important. (You can respond to the Rector trigger by Extracting the Rector, which causes the ability to fizzle and also ensures your opponent won't play any more Rectors for the rest of the game).

For example Elspeth -3 doesn't even kill any Goblins and the 3 Soldiers can die to Sharpshooter. Most of the time I would much rather my opponent be trying to resolve 6 mana Elspeth than 5 mana Curse of Death's Hold, for example. I agree that boarding out vial is probably right.

I hadn't realized that Surgical fizzles rector, that's important to know. My concern had been that if you're not running discard, how do you get a rector in the graveyard to surgical unless it's been killed, at which point they've probably won anyway. I see that surgical dodges that. However, I would at least note that I probably wouldn't surgical anything else but the rectors, like the Lingering Souls that Fourbirr mentioned.

Elspeth is a huge problem most of the time, unless you already have a huge board and can swing past the 3 1/1s to kill her, or sharpshooter as you mentioned. The problem is that she's really hard to get to attack profitably and kill. Eventually she emblems, and we probably can't beat that.

I played online last night against Rector Nic Fit twice, 2-0 4-0 in matches/games. Game 1 match 1 was the closest, with my opponent giving me the edict curse on t4 or so by hardcasting it, and my draw was kinda bad up till that point. However, they honestly don't do a whole ton sometimes once they get their mana set up. I forced them to pop a deed to wipe my board (taking 4 lingering souls tokens with them). Earwig Squad stripped the rest of the scary enchantments out of their deck (in the other match, my opponent just scooped to squad). The edict curse was starting to put me in an awkward spot since I just needed more creatures to swing at them but I didn't see anything like Mogg War Marshal to make the edict bad. I ended up Warren Weirding myself to turn an earwig squad into 2 1/1s. I had a pendelhaven too, so it was still 2 damage a turn after the edict. Double tarfire to face finished them off. I only saw 1 ringleader and 0 matrons all game, and my opponent had 2 deeds. That alone tells me the matchup can't be that bad.

Here's the list I was playing for reference:
16 Core (Lackey, Matron, Ringleader, Vial)
3 Warchief
3 Piledriver
3 Gempalm
3 Tarfire
2 Mwm
1 Sharpshooter
1 Earwig
1 Krenko
1 Chirurgeon
1 Chieftain
1 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
1 Tuktuk
1 Weirding

23 Lands
6 Fetches
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Badlands
1 Karakas
1 Pendelhaven

Sideboard
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Minister of Pain
1 Stingscourger
1 Pithing Needle
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrade (has since been turned into another surgical)

61 card maindeck, I honestly like everyone 1-of and think they play a certain purpose, and so aren't cuttable.

I sided like this;
+3 Therapy
+1 Needle
+1 K Command
+1 Stingscourger

-4 Aether Vial
-1 Weirding
-1 Tarfire

I'd probably take out another tarfire for a surgical knowing about the rector thing.

My other matches last night online;
2-1 ANT
1-2 BR Reanimator (got nut drawn game 3 on the draw. Despite my great hand of lands including Karakas, Stingscourger, and Relic, my opp thoughtseized me, then reanimated a Sire of Insanity all on t1. RIP me).
2-0 Rector Nic Fit
2-0 Rector Nic Fit
2-0 Ravager Affinity (basically a shopless vintage workshop deck)

[Fourbirr]

I hadn't realized that Surgical fizzles rector, that's important to know. My concern had been that if you're not running discard, how do you get a rector in the graveyard to surgical unless it's been killed, at which point they've probably won anyway. I see that surgical dodges that. However, I would at least note that I probably wouldn't surgical anything else but the rectors, like the Lingering Souls that Fourbirr mentioned.

Huh?! I read my posts about the Nic Fit coverage just to check, but I never mentioned that. I mentioned to surgical Rector AND Veteran.

Earwig Squad on their enchantments? Ouch, it hurts. Well done!

[1GoblinLackey]

Huh?! I read my posts about the Nic Fit coverage just to check, but I never mentioned that. I mentioned to surgical Rector AND Veteran.

Earwig Squad on their enchantments? Ouch, it hurts. Well done!

Sorry mate, didn’t mean to put words in your mouth. I was thinking of this post “1 Stingscourger, +2 Pithing Needle (Pernicious Deed, Garruk), +2 Surgical Extraction (Green Sun Zenit, Veteran, Cabal Therapy, Academy Rector), +2 Pyrokinesis (Lingering Souls)”

Combined the lingering souls with the other surgical targets in my head. My bad.

[Fourbirr]

No problem ;-)

[Cringe]

I played a very early version of nyxfit and all i can say is that I hoped and prayed that my opponent didn’t know how rector worked. I can see how this would be a decent matchup for us. You can force them into early deeds and surgical the rectors. Their deck is built around running out rectors on turn 4 at the latest, 80% of the time. I think grabbing the EWS early may be great for us to grab those enchants as early as possible. They help us with board state through the land ramp which feels good to Matron on turn one if we are drawing, to grab the EWS for turn 2? Though they tend to run 6 discard and 6 removal. I plan on proxy for this deck to test against in the near future.

How do you guys feel about blade matchups? I tend to get stomped by them. My 3 testing partners swear that I just insanely bad luck all the time. But there are constantly games where I get 3-6 goblins on board and keep the pressure and then invite easily wiped up and then quickly facing Tnn and a jitte.

[1GoblinLackey]

I played a very early version of nyxfit and all i can say is that I hoped and prayed that my opponent didn’t know how rector worked. I can see how this would be a decent matchup for us. You can force them into early deeds and surgical the rectors. Their deck is built around running out rectors on turn 4 at the latest, 80% of the time. I think grabbing the EWS early may be great for us to grab those enchants as early as possible. They help us with board state through the land ramp which feels good to Matron on turn one if we are drawing, to grab the EWS for turn 2? Though they tend to run 6 discard and 6 removal. I plan on proxy for this deck to test against in the near future.

How do you guys feel about blade matchups? I tend to get stomped by them. My 3 testing partners swear that I just insanely bad luck all the time. But there are constantly games where I get 3-6 goblins on board and keep the pressure and then invite easily wiped up and then quickly facing Tnn and a jitte.

I agree with your evaluation of the Nyx Fit matchup. So much of their deck is devoted to getting the enchantments online that they just don't do anything at all if you can stop that. Lingering souls doesn't matter to us if you can force them to pop deeds. Earwig is absolutely huge in the matchup, and is usually fast enough.

I also struggle with blade matchups, and would love to hear some advice on them. I have a couple sideboard cards to assist a great deal (Minister of Pain to wipe multiple TNNs is huge, and K command is a big deal in the grind while also destroying equipment), but every time I see a blade decklist now I just think "well, here's every card goblins has ever been afraid of".

[Cringe]

In my experience of blade decks I find that it really is a hard matchup no matter what we do. They bring in some more hate which just makes our efforts seem terrible at best. I find that having 4 Tarfire and 3 Gempalm help but Gempalm is actually slower in the early game than we want here . If they aren’t running black then our matrons are golden to grab a Tuk tuk early. If you Tarfire their stoneforges with Gempalm backup (they WILL always have counters lol) then work towards a Cavern for the tuk tuk, we are sitting pretty. I’m going to get some more games in but I really feel like a slow hand of removal and some shatter affects helps. Sometimes I build a board state for 3 turns against a TNN and have the shatter plan in my hand. But it never seems to help towards a win because they just always have the removal/equipment with protection. I’m heavily considering keeping tuk tuk main and having 2 abraids in the side. I don’t like the idea all that much. But at some point I think I may have to bite the bullet and go down to the 28-30 Goblin range in G2 to make sure I can handle their board state.

Side note: inexperienced blue players keep force and daze in. Most blue decks have the tools in their deck to deal with our board. Experienced players will usually bring in more heat at the cost of counters because of our deck style. Sadly, those inexperienced players will see that one card that needs countered and counter it if we don’t have a Vial or Cavern, and always leave a bad taste in my mouth lol. One test partner I have likes to keep them in because I only run 2 caverns as of now. But I think we can be more aggressive in games 2 and 3 so long as we keep a Matron in hand for a turn 4 or 5 shatter Goblin.

Through all the test games I play I’m leaning towards blade decks being our worst matchup as a whole games 1-3. Combo makes us wish we were playing a different deck but after sideboard I feel that most of my combo games go 45-55 or 50-50

EDIT: Thinking back to my comment on blue players. Not all blue decks side out all counters. They don’t want to see a turn one Vial lol. As much as we’d love to have the turn one

[Fourbirr]

I played a very early version of nyxfit and all i can say is that I hoped and prayed that my opponent didn’t know how rector worked. I can see how this would be a decent matchup for us. You can force them into early deeds and surgical the rectors. Their deck is built around running out rectors on turn 4 at the latest, 80% of the time. I think grabbing the EWS early may be great for us to grab those enchants as early as possible. They help us with board state through the land ramp which feels good to Matron on turn one if we are drawing, to grab the EWS for turn 2? Though they tend to run 6 discard and 6 removal. I plan on proxy for this deck to test against in the near future.


Thank you for the tip Cringe. Not running EWS, I'm usually always very careful for this trade, because their 4 CMC spells are stronger than us. Until now, my strategy was to cast one goblin at a time, build a board state, not attack to let their Veteran alive and swing later for 10+.

So, against a Nic Fit Rector list, would you recommend to hit or trade an early Veteran Explorer to get the lands that will favor us more than them, because they are usually very slow and we can ramp them?

[Fourbirr]

How do you guys feel about blade matchups? I tend to get stomped by them. My 3 testing partners swear that I just insanely bad luck all the time. But there are constantly games where I get 3-6 goblins on board and keep the pressure and then invite easily wiped up and then quickly facing Tnn and a jitte.

I guess your 3 testing partners are probably right. These losses were possibly due to bad luck or decisions. Stoneblade is a very favorable matchups for goblins. It's almost even with Miracles. I find Deathblade a little tougher, because we have also to solve DRS. Snapcaster Mage in Stoneblade is less of a problem, because Piledriver don't care about him. TNN is a thing, but unequipped, we can race it. Piledriver shines here, but a shatter artifacts is key.

You mentioned Tuktuk, well, If Stoneblade gives you trouble, why not try Tin Street? Tin Street will come 2 turns earlier. With 4 manas, we cast Piledriver, Tin Street AND answer Jitte in the same turn. That's a huge difference in a game where we have to race.

[Cringe]

Thank you for the tip Cringe. Not running EWS, I'm usually always very careful for this trade, because their 4 CMC spells are stronger than us. Until now, my strategy was to cast one goblin at a time, build a board state, not attack to let their Veteran alive and swing later for 10+.

So, against a Nic Fit Rector list, would you recommend to hit or trade an early Veteran Explorer to get the lands that will favor us more than them, because they are usually very slow and we can ramp them?


Well , curses I believe it is called, is really weird to read. I feel that if we are in the play, we turn one lackey (say we have a decent hand) we can feel free to drop land turn two and tar fire or use removal for the land, but we don’t want to trade with them because if it’s passed turn 2 they can use the lands to play against us and then we need to catch up. The way I see this is that they are going to get to 4 lands. They need a sac outlet for the rector. So if we use their mana excelerator to build a board then we are looking good. We can slow there sac outlets with wasteland but I’m not too sure what they run other than that and Cabal Therapy. But I’ll stick to saying that we can use their lands a little better than they can early on. They have to see rector, they have to have an outlet. And some games we can just make a speedy board and get them. Games 2 and 3 look great with BR build.

As for tin TSH. I’m not sure how to take this card. I don’t want to splash green because I’m really feeling the BR right now. After boarding I get hand hate and more shatter. I’m still heavily considering 2 abraids I’m the side

[Cringe]

I plan on testing against this deck as soon as I can. It’s different from when I played it but the idea is generally the same for them. Their enchants cause us to scoop it up. But I don’t know how truly slow they are. I can see siege gang winning us games. I’m sure we just have to play explosive here and hope they don’t get rolling too early. Building a big board state may be good here. Abusing their explorers on our turn 4-6 for extra land to finish them off may be valuable but they do have board wipes. Hand hate hurts them since they no longer run starfield of nyx to recur enchants. Playing safe after game 1 can allow ya to see their hand in splashing black and that helps in so many ways since we can see what threats they’ll be holding. I’ve always seen this as a combo control deck. I was playing against a delver variant and had a turn 2 Nissa Vital force turn two with a turn three humility to lock the game in. They can be fast, and they can pose a board state that calls for removal from us that will push them towards a win. But at that point that’s magic and that’s looking at it hypothetically. Just looking at their deck and our play style leads me to believe we have a good matchup here. I’ll report after I do some testing in the near future.

Let’s also bow our heads and be thankful for miracles pushing through top bannings to put that ugly deck back on the market. It’s been rough in me with all these DRS and I’ll take an easy game any day hahaha

[menph]

I plan on testing against this deck as soon as I can. It’s different from when I played it but the idea is generally the same for them. Their enchants cause us to scoop it up. But I don’t know how truly slow they are. I can see siege gang winning us games. I’m sure we just have to play explosive here and hope they don’t get rolling too early. Building a big board state may be good here. Abusing their explorers on our turn 4-6 for extra land to finish them off may be valuable but they do have board wipes. Hand hate hurts them since they no longer run starfield of nyx to recur enchants. Playing safe after game 1 can allow ya to see their hand in splashing black and that helps in so many ways since we can see what threats they’ll be holding. I’ve always seen this as a combo control deck. I was playing against a delver variant and had a turn 2 Nissa Vital force turn two with a turn three humility to lock the game in. They can be fast, and they can pose a board state that calls for removal from us that will push them towards a win. But at that point that’s magic and that’s looking at it hypothetically. Just looking at their deck and our play style leads me to believe we have a good matchup here. I’ll report after I do some testing in the near future.

Let’s also bow our heads and be thankful for miracles pushing through top bannings to put that ugly deck back on the market. It’s been rough in me with all these DRS and I’ll take an easy game any day hahaha

I tried the deck but I have to test against it , on paper I think this is a hard MU for us.

Playing explosive is the best way but I don't know if building a big board is the key against Nyx Fit since they can wipe everything with deed. Anyway is also easy to have key cards discarded by therapy, so keep a ringleader in hand could be risky too. Needle on deed? maybe, but will slow us down a lot. so revoker could be better,but looks pretty meh.. They have decay, garruk and the - x/-x one.
If we can stop rector's trigger with surgical, or other GY hate, we have to keep in mind that scary enchantments cmc is 5, 7 and 8 and try to attack their mana with ports and wasteland to prevent them from hardcasting. For this reason playing surgical on veteran explorer in the first turns seems reasonable to buy us some turns and save surgical from discard spells.
Maybe keep them below 5 mana could be hard but we can try to play against Curse of death's Hold with 2/2's and chieftains.

I don't see SGC as strong option here because if they land Curse we have no 1/1s to trow and if they land the "big humility" he will be a useless 1/1 itself.
I see piledriver chief and rabblmaster very well positioned instead.

I think mono R version is very weak in this MU even if the number of basics available is higher.
Splashing white looks awesome to me since give us access to both Rip and disenchant. Also black looks great for EW squad removing enchantments.

Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

[Cringe]

Not sure where I was coming from with the siege gang comment, but I agree that he isn’t as good as other finishers we have.

The just spoiled a Mogg Fanatic with haste. Oh boy!

[Stevestamopz]

Not sure where I was coming from with the siege gang comment, but I agree that he isn’t as good as other finishers we have.

:confused:

If not Siege-Gang, what is the better finisher?

The card literally does everything Goblins wants:
- Army in a can
- provides reach
- allows for the fastest possible kills with Lackey/Driver/Siege Gang starts.

[Dan Pyre]

:confused:

If not Siege-Gang, what is the better finisher?

The card literally does everything Goblins wants:
- Army in a can
- provides reach
- allows for the fastest possible kills with Lackey/Driver/Siege Gang starts.
I don't think I've played a game without SGC in awhile. Just having one copy in the maindeck is so important for early wins, late gas or reach. I'd say that Krenko is a better finisher (especially in Chieftain builds) but SGC has far, far more utility. I'm of the opinion that most lists should run at least 1 of either of these, if not both.

TL;DR stroking steve's opinion off

[menph]

:confused:

If not Siege-Gang, what is the better finisher?

The card literally does everything Goblins wants:
- Army in a can
- provides reach
- allows for the fastest possible kills with Lackey/Driver/Siege Gang starts.

we are talking about Nyx fit MU.
SGC is my all time favourite finisher goblin too, but he doesn't shine in this particular MU imho.
of course IF lackey connects and IF you have SGC in your opening hand he's a bomb even here, but as 1-of how frequently this can happen??

[Cringe]

:confused:

If not Siege-Gang, what is the better finisher?

The card literally does everything Goblins wants:
- Army in a can
- provides reach
- allows for the fastest possible kills with Lackey/Driver/Siege Gang starts.

Gang Bang is my favorite finisher. He’s just hard to get by with in this matchup. In any matchup if you can turn one lackey into a turn 2 siege gang then he’s by far the best we have. But that’s a hot sex move that we don’t get to see often. Against curses you want a EWS asap.

[1GoblinLackey]

I suppose I'll provide the other side to the finisher debate; I personally keep trying to find excuses to play siege gang, because it's obviously very powerful with a lot of utility, but I typically don't play him anymore in my lists. This is for a couple reasons;

-5 mana is too much. Period; I'm really trying to cut the curve down in my goblins lists as much as possible, and I think the inclusion of a 5 drop is just not feasible anymore in legacy. Besides Nic Fit, what other deck tries to cast 5 drops? Miracles siding in Keranos for the mirror or other nonsense like that? Besides, they have every card selection spell imaginable, whereas we have nothing. In the majority of games, siege gang is gonna rot in your hand, either never coming down or being too little too late. Lackeying out your siege gang is a pipe dream against the fair decks most of the time, and against the combo decks, it's not even that good compared to warchief, or matroning for a hate piece like stingscourger or earwig. We cannot pressure combo decks fast enough to actually kill them before the go off without disruption, so I'd rather spend my mana on discard or hate pieces, and using my lackey to just drop whatever's left and kill them that way.

-He's too fragile; Siege Gang can come on board, then die immediately without getting any value whatsoever. Before, this wasn't a huge deal, because you still have the army that came with him. However, the 3 1/1s just aren't anything without him, thanks to the fact that there are virtually no 1 toughness creatures in legacy to trade with in combat. Those 1/1s are just gonna get stonewalled. Imagine you're facing a gurmag angler and you have a siege gang. Even if he survives, you have to invest 6 additional mana to kill their 1/1. 11 mana to 1. That is just not a mana trade we can reasonably make. Krenko does a way better job here, since he can just make infinite dudes to make a 5/5 irrelevant. Also, I think it's worth noting that a 2/2 is a lot smaller than a 3/3. Siege Gang dies to K command, Forked Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, 1 Jitte hit of counters, 1 SoFI hit, Pyroclasm/Kozilek's Return/Rough//Tumble, and so on. The only card that Krenko dies to that Siege Gang doesn't is Fatal Push, which while relevant, isn't a huge deal compared to all the others. Playing Karakas has also made Krenko better for me (as well a Chirurgeon to protect him), so maybe this add bias to my point of view.

-Siege gang is too fair; He doesn't generate infinite creatures like Krenko eventually will at an exponential rate, and he doesn't create (virtually) infinite value like Kiki-Jiki will. I'd probably sooner play Kiki than Siege Gang at this point. There have been so many games where Krenko's ability to just keep generating creatures just by sitting on the table is invaluable when trying to battle past huge monsters like Angler and Goyf. Kiki does a similar job by letting you overrun your opponent with value, and his haste mitigates the vulnerabilities siege gang has at 2 toughness. Siege gang and his troop of 1/1s just don't do enough.


The only meta situation where I would significantly prefer Siege Gang is if there's a whole bunch of D&T and Ensnaring Bridge decks. Siege Gang is definitely good for killing walkers out of nowhere, or lobbing creatures over a moat.

A less relevant point, but still a part of my thought process-

-Basically useless with a Leovold on board.