[Deck] Vial Goblins

[joaquin]

is playing Kiki Jiki without Settler justifiable or are those two rather unseparable?

I play kiki without settler in a non winstigator list. It's amazing. I choose to play kiki over krenko because krekno feels very "win more" where as kiki can come down on a board where you are losing (you only have a lone matron or ringleader hanging out) and you can then make a token and turn the tide of the game.
Kiki wins you games sometimes even when you only have war marshal to copy.

[zebhillard]

I play kiki without settler in a non winstigator list. It's amazing. I choose to play kiki over krenko because krekno feels very "win more" where as kiki can come down on a board where you are losing (you only have a lone matron or ringleader hanging out) and you can then make a token and turn the tide of the game.
Kiki wins you games sometimes even when you only have war marshal to copy.

I also use Kiki over Krenko without Settler. Sometimes it also feels Win More, but other times there's no other card that would win a game if drawn. The ability to duplicate matron, Ringleader, or even Piledriver on occasion have all won me games...not to mention the shenanigans that can be gone about when Siege-Gang gets involved and you just swarm over your opponent or it being the only reason you would ever pay Echo for Stingscourger. Krenko is a bigger swarm card and when it comes in with Haste can end games, but if you have enough goblins of a stable enough board state that you can make goblins for multiple turns, I think you're in a solid position regardless.

But, with all things contextual, it's...contextual. I totally understand the arguments for both whenever they're made. I just like having 1 more out when I tick Vial up to 5 to plop in a SCG.

[jrw1985]

What would you all think of cutting Lackeys and replacing them with Discard? The pros are obvious (disrupt combo, answer difficult cards like plainswalkers and SFM before they can make an impact), but how would the deck negatively impacted? Would the pros outweigh the cons?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zebhillard]

What would you all think of cutting Lackeys and replacing them with Discard? The pros are obvious (disrupt combo, answer difficult cards like plainswalkers and SFM before they can make an impact), but how would the deck negatively impacted? Would the pros outweigh the cons?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, you can't Vial in a Thoughtseize, that's the first thing that comes to mind. When I played Rb I had Cabal Therapy in the board, but that's as far as my black splash went. I'm pretty sure if you want to stay as goblin-centric as you can in the main and sideboard against combo as opposed to come in Game 1 with it. SFM can be pretty easily answered these days with Gempalm or Trashmaster after the fact.

[Johanovich]

Finished second yesterday in a MKM trial (for MKM Ghent) with the little green men.

R1: UB omnishow
G1: lackey into siege-gang plus mogg war ensures plenty of pressure while cratermaker does just that, turning emrakul into a giant crater.
G2: vial, thorn, wasteland and port keep him down while goblins beat face.

R2: Grixis control
I get stuck on three lands both games and can't keep up.

R3: Green stax
G1: he has the absolute nuts with chalice on 1, tangle wire, smokestack and tracker.
G2: I get a lackey going which eats a ballista. I restrict him on mana while goblins come down.
G3: he spends a lot of resources on an early threat which I deal with quickly. The game grinds almost to a halt but I have more cards left in hand so it's just a matter of time.

R4: D&T
G1: unanswered lackey and double ringleaders that grab 3 and 4 extra goblins is too much to deal with.
G2: two vials and port keep his mana down while I blow up his vial and jitte.

R5: ID (against steel stompy, we play for fun which I win thanks to timely cratermaker activations and a chainwhirler to clean up)

QF: grixis control (same opponent as before)
G1: he mulls to 5, I mull to 6, ringleader refills my hand and I get there.
G2: we both mull to 6, I flood slightly and never see a ringleader to refill so he grinds me out.
G3: he mulls to 5 again and I mull to 6 again. He fails to find any cantrips and misses a few landdrops so he loses too much tempo.

SF: dredge
G1: he has the nutter butter hand with land, LED, breathrough, street wraith and two dredgers in troll and stinky. He proceeds to dredge most of his deck including all 4 ichorids and 2 bridges. I'm essentially dead before turn 1.
G2 and G3 are really weird games where he does nothing for several turns, thorn prevents him from doing much and dredgers get exiled. A lonely prospector gets in for 5 damage before switching with lackey (exiling bridge in the process) and the little green men that could get there.

F: infect (Sam aka Fenruscloud, who also happens to be a teammate)
G1: I play sharpshooter on turn 3 without haste and he kills me in one shot before it gets active.
G2: lackey trades with elf, he gets pendelhaven and blighted agent after I matron for sharpshooter. Sylvan library finds needle for sharpshooter shortly afterwards. I get rid of his agent eot with incinerator but he just crop rotates for inkmoth and kills me in his turn.

[1GoblinLackey]

Finished second yesterday in a MKM trial (for MKM Ghent) with the little green men.

R1: UB omnishow
G1: lackey into siege-gang plus mogg war ensures plenty of pressure while cratermaker does just that, turning emrakul into a giant crater.
G2: vial, thorn, wasteland and port keep him down while goblins beat face.

R2: Grixis control
I get stuck on three lands both games and can't keep up.

R3: Green stax
G1: he has the absolute nuts with chalice on 1, tangle wire, smokestack and tracker.
G2: I get a lackey going which eats a ballista. I restrict him on mana while goblins come down.
G3: he spends a lot of resources on an early threat which I deal with quickly. The game grinds almost to a halt but I have more cards left in hand so it's just a matter of time.

R4: D&T
G1: unanswered lackey and double ringleaders that grab 3 and 4 extra goblins is too much to deal with.
G2: two vials and port keep his mana down while I blow up his vial and jitte.

R5: ID (against steel stompy, we play for fun which I win thanks to timely cratermaker activations and a chainwhirler to clean up)

QF: grixis control (same opponent as before)
G1: he mulls to 5, I mull to 6, ringleader refills my hand and I get there.
G2: we both mull to 6, I flood slightly and never see a ringleader to refill so he grinds me out.
G3: he mulls to 5 again and I mull to 6 again. He fails to find any cantrips and misses a few landdrops so he loses too much tempo.

SF: dredge
G1: he has the nutter butter hand with land, LED, breathrough, street wraith and two dredgers in troll and stinky. He proceeds to dredge most of his deck including all 4 ichorids and 2 bridges. I'm essentially dead before turn 1.
G2 and G3 are really weird games where he does nothing for several turns, thorn prevents him from doing much and dredgers get exiled. A lonely prospector gets in for 5 damage before switching with lackey (exiling bridge in the process) and the little green men that could get there.

F: infect (Sam aka Fenruscloud, who also happens to be a teammate)
G1: I play sharpshooter on turn 3 without haste and he kills me in one shot before it gets active.
G2: lackey trades with elf, he gets pendelhaven and blighted agent after I matron for sharpshooter. Sylvan library finds needle for sharpshooter shortly afterwards. I get rid of his agent eot with incinerator but he just crop rotates for inkmoth and kills me in his turn.

Very well done! Beating UB Omni is quite solid :)

I ran into FenrusCloud yesterday online and got the Gobs vs Infect revenge for you :laugh:

[jrw1985]

My State of the Union for Gobbos on MTGO:

I've been playing a lot online recently and have refined my list quite a bit. For starting reference, here's the list I 5-0'd with right after I started playing online.

Creatures [33]
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Settler
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Warchief
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Cratermaker
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron

Artifacts [4]
4 Aether Vial

Lands [23]
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
11 Mountain

SIDEBOARD
1 Goblin Trashmaster
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Sphere of Resistance

I really liked this list to begin with. I've always preferred toolbox builds and loved having all the options and interactions that all the singletons provided. When I 5-0'd it was against a slew of midrange decks which I managed to out-grind. The final match was against Manaless Dredge which I beat by just mulling to Leyline G2&3. It was a great run and I was quite pleased. However, when I played the next few leagues with it the wheels kinda fell off the old Goblin cart. Grixis and 4c Control decks had my number. The weakness in the build became obvious- Not enough Card advantage. You might wonder how that could be the case, what with all the standard CA goblins (Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm) along with the potential CA cards (Sharpshooter, Kiki, Trashmaster). But those cards were not the problem, it was the Piledrivers and Lords that were bringing me down. The control decks of the format right now pack a bunch of x/1s that give them immediate CA (Strix, Snapcaster) and those cards are really good at taking out creatures that are just beatsticks. Another problematic card turned out to be Cratermaker. Cratermaker is a very good card that is quite versatile, but it doesn't help you grind against control decks. It's great that is can kill Bridges and Eldrazi and flipped Delvers, but those are all 1-1 trades. So he's lethal, but he doesn't help you win the CA war. There are also times when you're using him to kill equipment which was tutored via SFM, or you're cracking him to kill a Snapcaster, and in both scenarios you're losing CA by running Cratermaker. CA is the crucial key to beating control decks, and Cratermaker just doesn't seem to cut it.

I changed up the build considerably and just tried something whacky: a 19 land build running both the RR and RB Grenzos and a ton of 2-drops. I hadn't quite hit upon the CA aspect, so i was still trying to jam Cratermakers and Piledrivers.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Fanatic
2 RR Grenzo
2 RB Grenzo
3 Piledriver
3 MWM
3 Cratermaker
1 Weirding
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm
3 Matron
3 Ringleader
1 Trashmaster
3 Chainwhirler
1 Settler

19 lands (0 Ports)

SIDEBAORD
1 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Trashmaster
2 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sphere of Resistance

Playing versions of this Rb list felt great at times. Ringleaders hit 4-goblins all the damn time. I could operate off of 2 lands and did not really miss playing Port. Best of all this list had much more game against control decks. The matches against Miracles, though, felt unwinnable. With so few lands and no haste lords it felt impossible to regain initiative after a sweeper. Having such a low curve made me cut Chalice from the SB, and Chalice is an MVP card against Miracles. The Grenzos were mediocre against Miracles and generally just ate removal before they could do anything. RB Grenzo was especially disappointing. He blanked all too often even in a 19 land build.

The 19 land experience convinced me I needed to go back to a more traditional manabase. I also realized that I didn't want RB Grenzo, but that RR Grenzo was pretty incredible against Goodstuff decks. When you set him up correctly he allows you to draw several free cards per attack off of the top of your opponent's deck. This can be huge if your opponent is playing efficient cards like Brainstorm and Bolt, and I realized that RR Grenzo is a really powerful CA Goblin in the 2-drop slot, which is exactly where I wanted a better CA goblin to be.

Here's where I'm at with my list...

23 Lands
6 Fetch
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Waste
3 Port

4 Vial
4 Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Prospector
(Vial and Lackey are obvious. Fanatic has been incredible and though it does not give CA it does provide value. It's not been uncommon for a Fanatic to deal 2-3 points of combat damage over a game and also kill and X/1. Prospector is great with the high MWM count.)

2 Warren Weirding
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
3 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
1 Cratermaker
(WW has been very good. Obviously it's great against Reanimator and other fatties, but it's also very good at killing annoying Prowess creatures that are difficult to kill with Gempalms. MWM is very very good against Grixis and 4c Control decks as it trades with Strix and Snap without losing CA. Stingscourger is a concession to the Reanimator and Dark Depths decks. Sometimes you just need to park Vial on 2 if you're going to have a chance to win. RR Grenzo is a fucking house against Goodstuff decks and when you hit with 2 or 3 creatures off of him you're getting a pseudo-Brainstorm off the top of your opponent's deck. It's a very powerful effect. Cratermaker is a concession to Equipment and Eldrazi)

3 Gempalm
3 Matron
3 Chainwhirler
(Gempalm is still great and the ability to Cycle when you just need to hit a 3rd land is extremely helpful. 3 Matron is enough. I cut Matrons and Ringleaders down to 3 because the deck needs space for utility Gobbos. The format requires it. And the curve gets too high when you're running extra 3 and 4-drops. 3 Chainwhirler has been amazing. Being a one sided sweeper is pretty great on its own, but it also beats like a drum.)

3 Ringleader
1 Settler
1 Trashmaster
1 Krenko
(3 Ringleader: See Matron. Also, you don't need the CA from Matron and Ringleader quite so badly when you have so much CA from MWM, RRG, Chainwhirler. 1 Settler is a concession to Dark Depths. Trashmaster is amazing and if you're not playing him you're not doing it right. Krenko is a concession to Eldrazi stompy, but also has huge CA potential)

1 Earwig Squad
(Concession to Miracles and Combo)

SIDEABOARD
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
(For GY and combo decks where you need T1/T0 protection. Also playable against grindier recursion strategies like Lands and P Fire. Faerie and Crypt allow you to keep great hands that don't have GY interaction because you can actually draw into them)
1 Trashmaster
1 Pyrokinesis
(Both are great against midrange decks and anything packing Equipment. Trashmaster #2 also comes in against E Plague and Elesh Norn)
2 Pithing Needle
(In theory these are for Planeswalkers. In practice they're not very good. I'm seriously considering trying REB instead)
3 Chalice of the Void
(Combo and Miracles and Delver)
1 Sphere of Resistance
(Combo)
1 Blood Moon
(Lands and Depths)

Note on Omissions:
Piledriver - Just a beatstick. Best in multiples. No room for that these days. Also needs hastelords to be really lethal.
Haste Lords - Just a beatstick. No CA. Too high on the curve. I would love to see them print a 2-drop Lord. That could give Goblins the advantage to play the beatdown. The reality though is that the format has combo decks that kill T2. 3 drop Lords are not fast enough to serve a purpose there, and they give up CA while raising our curve too much against midrange and control.
Sharpshooter - Not better than Chainwhirler.
SGC/Kiki-Jiki - Too high on the curve. And yes, Earwig is a 5-drop, but his Prowl is 3.

[1GoblinLackey]

My State of the Union for Gobbos on MTGO:

I've been playing a lot online recently and have refined my list quite a bit. For starting reference, here's the list I 5-0'd with right after I started playing online.

Creatures [33]
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Settler
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Warchief
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Cratermaker
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron

Artifacts [4]
4 Aether Vial

Lands [23]
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
11 Mountain

SIDEBOARD
1 Goblin Trashmaster
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Sphere of Resistance

I really liked this list to begin with. I've always preferred toolbox builds and loved having all the options and interactions that all the singletons provided. When I 5-0'd it was against a slew of midrange decks which I managed to out-grind. The final match was against Manaless Dredge which I beat by just mulling to Leyline G2&3. It was a great run and I was quite pleased. However, when I played the next few leagues with it the wheels kinda fell off the old Goblin cart. Grixis and 4c Control decks had my number. The weakness in the build became obvious- Not enough Card advantage. You might wonder how that could be the case, what with all the standard CA goblins (Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm) along with the potential CA cards (Sharpshooter, Kiki, Trashmaster). But those cards were not the problem, it was the Piledrivers and Lords that were bringing me down. The control decks of the format right now pack a bunch of x/1s that give them immediate CA (Strix, Snapcaster) and those cards are really good at taking out creatures that are just beatsticks. Another problematic card turned out to be Cratermaker. Cratermaker is a very good card that is quite versatile, but it doesn't help you grind against control decks. It's great that is can kill Bridges and Eldrazi and flipped Delvers, but those are all 1-1 trades. So he's lethal, but he doesn't help you win the CA war. There are also times when you're using him to kill equipment which was tutored via SFM, or you're cracking him to kill a Snapcaster, and in both scenarios you're losing CA by running Cratermaker. CA is the crucial key to beating control decks, and Cratermaker just doesn't seem to cut it.

I changed up the build considerably and just tried something whacky: a 19 land build running both the RR and RB Grenzos and a ton of 2-drops. I hadn't quite hit upon the CA aspect, so i was still trying to jam Cratermakers and Piledrivers.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Fanatic
2 RR Grenzo
2 RB Grenzo
3 Piledriver
3 MWM
3 Cratermaker
1 Weirding
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm
3 Matron
3 Ringleader
1 Trashmaster
3 Chainwhirler
1 Settler

19 lands (0 Ports)

SIDEBAORD
1 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Trashmaster
2 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sphere of Resistance

Playing versions of this Rb list felt great at times. Ringleaders hit 4-goblins all the damn time. I could operate off of 2 lands and did not really miss playing Port. Best of all this list had much more game against control decks. The matches against Miracles, though, felt unwinnable. With so few lands and no haste lords it felt impossible to regain initiative after a sweeper. Having such a low curve made me cut Chalice from the SB, and Chalice is an MVP card against Miracles. The Grenzos were mediocre against Miracles and generally just ate removal before they could do anything. RB Grenzo was especially disappointing. He blanked all too often even in a 19 land build.

The 19 land experience convinced me I needed to go back to a more traditional manabase. I also realized that I didn't want RB Grenzo, but that RR Grenzo was pretty incredible against Goodstuff decks. When you set him up correctly he allows you to draw several free cards per attack off of the top of your opponent's deck. This can be huge if your opponent is playing efficient cards like Brainstorm and Bolt, and I realized that RR Grenzo is a really powerful CA Goblin in the 2-drop slot, which is exactly where I wanted a better CA goblin to be.

Here's where I'm at with my list...

23 Lands
6 Fetch
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Waste
3 Port

4 Vial
4 Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Prospector
(Vial and Lackey are obvious. Fanatic has been incredible and though it does not give CA it does provide value. It's not been uncommon for a Fanatic to deal 2-3 points of combat damage over a game and also kill and X/1. Prospector is great with the high MWM count.)

2 Warren Weirding
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
3 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
1 Cratermaker
(WW has been very good. Obviously it's great against Reanimator and other fatties, but it's also very good at killing annoying Prowess creatures that are difficult to kill with Gempalms. MWM is very very good against Grixis and 4c Control decks as it trades with Strix and Snap without losing CA. Stingscourger is a concession to the Reanimator and Dark Depths decks. Sometimes you just need to park Vial on 2 if you're going to have a chance to win. RR Grenzo is a fucking house against Goodstuff decks and when you hit with 2 or 3 creatures off of him you're getting a pseudo-Brainstorm off the top of your opponent's deck. It's a very powerful effect. Cratermaker is a concession to Equipment and Eldrazi)

3 Gempalm
3 Matron
3 Chainwhirler
(Gempalm is still great and the ability to Cycle when you just need to hit a 3rd land is extremely helpful. 3 Matron is enough. I cut Matrons and Ringleaders down to 3 because the deck needs space for utility Gobbos. The format requires it. And the curve gets too high when you're running extra 3 and 4-drops. 3 Chainwhirler has been amazing. Being a one sided sweeper is pretty great on its own, but it also beats like a drum.)

3 Ringleader
1 Settler
1 Trashmaster
1 Krenko
(3 Ringleader: See Matron. Also, you don't need the CA from Matron and Ringleader quite so badly when you have so much CA from MWM, RRG, Chainwhirler. 1 Settler is a concession to Dark Depths. Trashmaster is amazing and if you're not playing him you're not doing it right. Krenko is a concession to Eldrazi stompy, but also has huge CA potential)

1 Earwig Squad
(Concession to Miracles and Combo)

SIDEABOARD
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
(For GY and combo decks where you need T1/T0 protection. Also playable against grindier recursion strategies like Lands and P Fire. Faerie and Crypt allow you to keep great hands that don't have GY interaction because you can actually draw into them)
1 Trashmaster
1 Pyrokinesis
(Both are great against midrange decks and anything packing Equipment. Trashmaster #2 also comes in against E Plague and Elesh Norn)
2 Pithing Needle
(In theory these are for Planeswalkers. In practice they're not very good. I'm seriously considering trying REB instead)
3 Chalice of the Void
(Combo and Miracles and Delver)
1 Sphere of Resistance
(Combo)
1 Blood Moon
(Lands and Depths)

Note on Omissions:
Piledriver - Just a beatstick. Best in multiples. No room for that these days. Also needs hastelords to be really lethal.
Haste Lords - Just a beatstick. No CA. Too high on the curve. I would love to see them print a 2-drop Lord. That could give Goblins the advantage to play the beatdown. The reality though is that the format has combo decks that kill T2. 3 drop Lords are not fast enough to serve a purpose there, and they give up CA while raising our curve too much against midrange and control.
Sharpshooter - Not better than Chainwhirler.
SGC/Kiki-Jiki - Too high on the curve. And yes, Earwig is a 5-drop, but his Prowl is 3.

There's a lot to unpack here. I share a decent number of your beliefs, and like what you've done here. I agree that lowering the curve is still of the utmost importance: that the hastelords aren't great (though I don't think they're entirely bad): that Cratermaker is maybe a little weaker than we want it to be. Agree that Chainwhirler >>> Sharpshooter. Grenzo is a fucking BEAST.

I'd add these caveats though: I think having some hastelords is still important, particularly Warchief. Your Prospector in particular gets a lot worse without Warchief. I've been on 2 warchief 1 chieftain and found that to be a decent number. As for Cratermaker, you're right that it's card disadvantage in a lotta cases, and usually mana inefficient (except with Vial). It's a card that does everything we want slightly awkwardly. However, I do think there should be at least 2. I still lose a lot of my matches to Delver and Equipment, and Cratermaker solves both of those problems.

Things I disagree with:

Piledriver is bad now: I've actually loved playing 3 Drivers at the moment. So many blue creatures, and it's our best way to beat TNN. Just crushes a lot of the blue fair decks, and frequently trades with fatties like angler in my experience.

3 Matron: Matron is the best Goblin in my opinion, playing less than 4 is insanity. I'd cut literally any other non-vial card before I cut a Matron. It's the only reason our deck functions.

Warren Weirding: I think you've managed to make Weirding better than normal by playing an absolute shit ton of removal, but it's still a fairly underpowered card. Since you're playing 0 Piledrivers, I do see its purpose though. Would cut the 2nd one for the Matron though. You're also playing a lotta badlands and fetches for just these and Squad, which doesn't really seem worth it? Deck needs Volrath's Stronghold.

Settler: Don't think this card is strong enough to see maindeck play, especially without Kiki Jiki. Would be sideboard at best.

I'd like to see a 4th Ringleader in the board for the hard control matches. You're gonna suffer against Miracles with this build, so you're gonna want 4th Ring pretty bad. I've been playing a bit more with Chalice, and Chalice is a trap. It sucks so much in our sideboards. Cards Goblins really wants right now: Red Elemental Blast, Pithing Needle, Surgical Extraction. Guess what doesn't work with Chalice? You've managed to get around the Surgical issue with Leyine and Crypt, but as you said, you want REB right now. Really think you should play Thorns instead. Thorn is also better than Chalice against Miracles imo. I've seen Chalice get beaten so easily by Miracles, Thorn is much more annoying. They can't disenchant it on curve, and it makes slamming B2B/Jace past Port and such very difficult.

Finally, just to ask: If you've been struggling so much with the Grixis Control/4c Control decks, did you not try Oath of Ghouls or Volrath's? I've just found it so much better with the black cards (Cabal Therapy too). Mono Red Gobs is like 35-40% against those decks, I'm like 75-80%.

Overall, I agree with your observations in a theoretical sense, just don't quite agree with your proposed solutions.

<3 <3 3 Fanatic!

[jrw1985]

Things I disagree with:

Piledriver is bad now: I've actually loved playing 3 Drivers at the moment. So many blue creatures, and it's our best way to beat TNN. Just crushes a lot of the blue fair decks, and frequently trades with fatties like angler in my experience.

3 Matron: Matron is the best Goblin in my opinion, playing less than 4 is insanity. I'd cut literally any other non-vial card before I cut a Matron. It's the only reason our deck functions.

Warren Weirding: I think you've managed to make Weirding better than normal by playing an absolute shit ton of removal, but it's still a fairly underpowered card. Since you're playing 0 Piledrivers, I do see its purpose though. Would cut the 2nd one for the Matron though. You're also playing a lotta badlands and fetches for just these and Squad, which doesn't really seem worth it? Deck needs Volrath's Stronghold.

Settler: Don't think this card is strong enough to see maindeck play, especially without Kiki Jiki. Would be sideboard at best.

I'd like to see a 4th Ringleader in the board for the hard control matches. You're gonna suffer against Miracles with this build, so you're gonna want 4th Ring pretty bad. I've been playing a bit more with Chalice, and Chalice is a trap. It sucks so much in our sideboards. Cards Goblins really wants right now: Red Elemental Blast, Pithing Needle, Surgical Extraction. Guess what doesn't work with Chalice? You've managed to get around the Surgical issue with Leyine and Crypt, but as you said, you want REB right now. Really think you should play Thorns instead. Thorn is also better than Chalice against Miracles imo. I've seen Chalice get beaten so easily by Miracles, Thorn is much more annoying. They can't disenchant it on curve, and it makes slamming B2B/Jace past Port and such very difficult.

Finally, just to ask: If you've been struggling so much with the Grixis Control/4c Control decks, did you not try Oath of Ghouls or Volrath's? I've just found it so much better with the black cards (Cabal Therapy too). Mono Red Gobs is like 35-40% against those decks, I'm like 75-80%.

Overall, I agree with your observations in a theoretical sense, just don't quite agree with your proposed solutions.

<3 <3 3 Fanatic!
3-3 Matron-Ringleader.... I'm not actually missing the extra ones! Part of why I made the cuts is that I had too many Ringleaders draw into Matrons and ringleaders that I could not cast that turn. So far I'm liking it.

Stronghold - Just picked one up. Totally forgot about it and it will be a fine replacement for 1 Port I'm sure. How's that as a solution to cutting a Ringleader and Matron?

Settler - I just cut it. When it's good it's amazing, but it was developing SGC syndrome where it sits in your hand all game and you don't have the mana to spend it, and by the time you do have the mana it's not as impactful as it would have been earlier. Really, unless Settler comes in off Lackey T2 on the play it's probably not making an impact on the game. I think cutting it for now is fine. Plus, I'm packing the WWs and Stingscourger to take care of Merrit Lange (potentially).

Chalice - I've won too many games against Miracles with Chalice to count, but I see your point. Miracles brings in answers to permanents G2, so they'll have more Disenchants, etc, once Chalice comes in than they did before. But they'll have less Counters, making REB better against Jace and Snap. I dig it. I normally don't like leaving mana up for REB but we'll see if I can make the adjustments.

[kombatkiwi]

The good
- I agree with the statements about Piledrivers and lords not being good
- I like warren weirding
- I agree with the more recent comment explaining that you cut settler

The bad
- I agree with the suggestion that you want 4 Matrons
- The 3 Fanatic / 1 Cratermaker split seems weird/wrong. (Fanatic seems underpowered to me in general)

The I don't know
- 3 Havoc Raiser seems like a lot, some other people have been enthusiastic about this card but it didn't impress me in the limited number of games that I tried it.

[1GoblinLackey]

3-3 Matron-Ringleader.... I'm not actually missing the extra ones! Part of why I made the cuts is that I had too many Ringleaders draw into Matrons and ringleaders that I could not cast that turn. So far I'm liking it.

Stronghold - Just picked one up. Totally forgot about it and it will be a fine replacement for 1 Port I'm sure. How's that as a solution to cutting a Ringleader and Matron?

Settler - I just cut it. When it's good it's amazing, but it was developing SGC syndrome where it sits in your hand all game and you don't have the mana to spend it, and by the time you do have the mana it's not as impactful as it would have been earlier. Really, unless Settler comes in off Lackey T2 on the play it's probably not making an impact on the game. I think cutting it for now is fine. Plus, I'm packing the WWs and Stingscourger to take care of Merrit Lange (potentially).

Chalice - I've won too many games against Miracles with Chalice to count, but I see your point. Miracles brings in answers to permanents G2, so they'll have more Disenchants, etc, once Chalice comes in than they did before. But they'll have less Counters, making REB better against Jace and Snap. I dig it. I normally don't like leaving mana up for REB but we'll see if I can make the adjustments.

I'd give it a few months then make a decision on the matron thing :wink:

You've got exactly the idea I have. They side out countermagic, bring in permanent hate like Disenchant. Chalice is a fantastic G1 card against Miracles, but siding it in plays into their postboard plan, while also weakening ours. REBs solve the true problem (B2B, while also snagging a crucial part of their engine; Snapcaster, Jace, sometimes AK). It's also gonna be a much better topdeck in the lategame.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

3-3 Matron-Ringleader.... I'm not actually missing the extra ones! Part of why I made the cuts is that I had too many Ringleaders draw into Matrons and ringleaders that I could not cast that turn.

When that happens, aren't those games we're steamrolling? I don't think I've ever regretted Ringleadering into more card advantage. My opponents groan. What matches is that sequence losing for you? It only seems bad against combo, but Ringleader into anything can be too slow vs combo, and we cut Ringleaders anyway.

I also don't understand how you can play a toolbox with less than 4 Matrons. You're the more experienced player... but doesn't that have a big impact on your probabilities?

I like GoblinLackey1's tech. Discard helps with combo better than Chalice (Chalice on the draw without sol lands/mox = facepalm). Volrath's is really really strong at grinding out, especially against decks like Grixis and Miracles with 0 land destruction. The top 2 things I return with Volrath's are Ringleaders and Matrons, unless I need a situational answer. Running fewer than 4 copies means a lower chance of having one to recur.

I like your Grenzo tech and low curve. I'll have to try out some of those cards. I too have found Gray Ogre and Squire underwhelming in grindy matches.

Settler seems bad without Kiki. Its main role is to WInstigate free wins (WInsitigator drops Matron, fetch Kiki, drop Kiki. EOT copy Matron, fetch Settler. Then play Settler and copy, opponent concedes). As 1-shot land destruction it's too high variance. We have Wasteland and Port vs Dark Depths. See my post a few pages back about how Port can buy critical tempo against Dark Depths.

Would Thorn win those same games against Miracles that Chalice did? Or Mountain? How much worse did your Miracles matchup get that you needed to lean on Chalice against them?

[jrw1985]

@GoblinSmashmaster
Steamrolling?
Not necessarily, especially when you need an answer or a piece of removal, you have limited mana, and you draw a 3 or 4 drop instead. Matron(this turn)>Toolbox(next turn) isn't so great when you need that toolbox card this turn.
Yes, running fewer Matrons and Ringleaders lowers your probabilities, but the idea was running lower curve with more CA from RRGrenzo and to make up for it.
Settler is pretty good without Kiki, but only when you're on the play. That's the real weakness of Settler; it's really only good on the play with a Lackey.
Chalice vs Miracles: Chalice is much better than Thorn against Miracles, just because Chalice is super powerful against any deck running that many 1-drops. It counters 25% of their deck, and those cantrips and plows are what enable their Miracles, Mentors, Predicts and Snapcasters, so there's a lot of collateral damage there.

[jrw1985]

All right, bois, I need to talk about this card for a second...

https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=152876&type=card

While Goblins continues to have raw CA in spades (Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, MWM, Krenko, Grenzos) it is falling further and further behind in the realm of Card Selection and Mudbutton Clanger seems to have some value in helping Goblins sort through our draws. Everyone familiar with Legacy knows that Brainstorm and Ponder are such good cards because they help blue mages find and play the best card for the moment. They do nothing to help a mage win in and of themselves, but they maximize the efficiency of the other cards in the deck. What I have been wondering is: How does Goblins get some card selection of its own?

I've been tinkering with lower curve decklists that try to gain relative CA through having a lower land count (18 lands, like a Delver list). While this does help your Ringleaders and such hit more Goblins it makes your mana situation much more precarious, as you easily lose games to Wastelands and regular old screw. The annoying thing about losing to mana screw with 18 lands is that you also lose to mana flood with 24 lands. If there's a way to avoid these situations I want to find it! It was also common in lower curve decks to have a hand of underpowered Goblins that we not going to be impactful late-game. If we could fix draws a little to give us a better chance of hitting an impactful goblin or a sideboard card, that would be huge!

Here's where Mudbutton seems to have potential:
1) Fetchlands- If you run it with a fetch-heavy build you can potentially use the Kinship reveal the same way Delver players use that reveal to shuffle away chaff. This won't fix your draws necessarily, but it will shuffle away a card you do not need, giving you the potential to draw a better card off the top (whether that card is a land, goblin, or sideboard card).
2) Vial Counters- You will know whether or not to up your vial counters if you stack the triggers correctly.
3) Vial Activations- If you have a Vial set up for Matron or Ringleader you can get a Matron shuffle in upkeep to avoid a dead draw, or you can activate for a Ringleader in upkeep to guarantee one goblin draw if you know a goblin is on top.
4) 2/2 beater for R if you want it to be! I would think that normally I would chose to not reveal, but if I'm just jamming a hasty goblin anyway I don't see the downside of revealing it.

Mudbutton is only going to work though if you can jam enough shuffle effects into a decklist to enable its selection. Blade Control decks run a whopping 21 shuffle effects (if Snap>Ponder) +3 Fateseal options in Jace. But we've all been on the receiving end of Jace-lock to know that controlling the draw step is a huge advantage. UR runs a relatively paltry 12 shuffle-like effects (Preordain) by comparison. It would not be difficult to match the UR numbers when you remember the Matron shuffles give you 4 effects, so 8 fetches would get you the same number of shuffles. What I'm just wondering now is whether it will have enough of an effect on the outcome of a game.

Has anyone had experience playing this card, and could you share your thoughts?

[Eldariel]

It's a cute card but it just doesn't feel like it does enough. 2/2 for R is not even remotely interesting as it just gets outclassed by pretty much everything in Legacy - we're way past the time where Isamaru was a creature we cared about (and even that was mostly in conjunction with Karakas). I did discover the same problem as you back in the day but ultimately, my solution was just to make my lands do more. That's why we have Wastes (and Ports, which I frankly prefer to Wastes in this deck aside from the anti-Dark Depths function) - you essentially run 16 actual lands and then 8 land/spells. I did tinker with stuff like Mutavault, Tower of the Magistrate, Karakas, etc. but ultimately I found that doubling up on the mana denial/tempo plan lead to more wins than the other options. Of course, you can always run a few more utility lands if you go up to 24 mana sources; I've found 14 red sources sufficient much of the time as you only need double-R relatively late and Vial/Lackey can cast your stuff regardless of the manacosts.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

@GoblinSmashmaster
Steamrolling?
Not necessarily, especially when you need an answer or a piece of removal, you have limited mana, and you draw a 3 or 4 drop instead. Matron(this turn)>Toolbox(next turn) isn't so great when you need that toolbox card this turn.

When you need an answer immediately, yes drawing a Matron or Ringleader instead is too slow, but so is any other non-answer card. Unless you cut Matron/Ringleader for more answers, you're not changing those odds (and you could also cut any other slot for answers instead). Then you have to weigh that against the games where it does draw you into gas while some other single card wouldn't have done it. In my experience there is a strong positive correlation between the number of times I Ringleader into Matron/Ringleader and winning the game.

Clanger seems weak. Years ago I ran a 1-of Sensation Gorger as gas. Kinship can be useful, but the opportunities for card selection are so minimal (Kinship isn't Clash) that it doesn't make up for running a creature that's bad on its own. Goblins is mana hungry and can't afford to leave uncracked fetches hanging around like 1cc tempo decks. The rare card selection you get does not make up for running a do-nothing body. It's only worth it as an additional ability on a creature that is otherwise useful. I would consider Gorger before Clanger, and Gorger is still probably too slow/weak to make the cut.

[jrw1985]

Goblins is mana hungry and can't afford to leave uncracked fetches hanging around like 1cc tempo decks.

^^^

This. I've done some goldfishing with a Mudbutton build and this reality made Mudbutton's potential moot.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

So you guys are already looking at Chalice of the Void and Blood Moon and changing up the core cards. Has anyone here considered Goblin Stompy? It must have amazing matchups against those multicolor control decks.


//Lock Pieces: 11
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere

//Goblins and Goblin Accessories: 23
4 Legion Warboss
4 Goblin Matron
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Moggcatcher
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Goblin Settler
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander

//Mana Sources: 26
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Stingscourger


Stompy decks usually suffer from inconsistency, but there are 12 tutors.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

So you guys are already looking at Chalice of the Void and Blood Moon and changing up the core cards. Has anyone here considered Goblin Stompy? It must have amazing matchups against those multicolor control decks.


//Lock Pieces: 11
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere

//Goblins and Goblin Accessories: 23
4 Legion Warboss
4 Goblin Matron
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Moggcatcher
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Goblin Settler
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander

//Mana Sources: 26
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Stingscourger


Stompy decks usually suffer from inconsistency, but there are 12 tutors.

That's just Dragon Stompy using Goblins. Completely different deck. When I worked on Mogg Stompy I posted the information to here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19745-Deck-Dragon-Stompy). The mods on this site, years ago, decided that that was the place to post Stompy stuff.

The deck was a lot of fun, but has a really rough time against Miracles and D&T (probably not D&T anymore due to new cards). I ultimately sold out of the deck when my $60.00 City of Traitors were suddenly $250.00.

[GoboLord]

All right, bois, I need to talk about this card for a second...

https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=152876&type=card

While Goblins continues to have raw CA in spades (Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, MWM, Krenko, Grenzos) it is falling further and further behind in the realm of Card Selection and Mudbutton Clanger seems to have some value in helping Goblins sort through our draws. Everyone familiar with Legacy knows that Brainstorm and Ponder are such good cards because they help blue mages find and play the best card for the moment. They do nothing to help a mage win in and of themselves, but they maximize the efficiency of the other cards in the deck. What I have been wondering is: How does Goblins get some card selection of its own?

I've been tinkering with lower curve decklists that try to gain relative CA through having a lower land count (18 lands, like a Delver list). While this does help your Ringleaders and such hit more Goblins it makes your mana situation much more precarious, as you easily lose games to Wastelands and regular old screw. The annoying thing about losing to mana screw with 18 lands is that you also lose to mana flood with 24 lands. If there's a way to avoid these situations I want to find it! It was also common in lower curve decks to have a hand of underpowered Goblins that we not going to be impactful late-game. If we could fix draws a little to give us a better chance of hitting an impactful goblin or a sideboard card, that would be huge!

Here's where Mudbutton seems to have potential:
1) Fetchlands- If you run it with a fetch-heavy build you can potentially use the Kinship reveal the same way Delver players use that reveal to shuffle away chaff. This won't fix your draws necessarily, but it will shuffle away a card you do not need, giving you the potential to draw a better card off the top (whether that card is a land, goblin, or sideboard card).
2) Vial Counters- You will know whether or not to up your vial counters if you stack the triggers correctly.
3) Vial Activations- If you have a Vial set up for Matron or Ringleader you can get a Matron shuffle in upkeep to avoid a dead draw, or you can activate for a Ringleader in upkeep to guarantee one goblin draw if you know a goblin is on top.
4) 2/2 beater for R if you want it to be! I would think that normally I would chose to not reveal, but if I'm just jamming a hasty goblin anyway I don't see the downside of revealing it.

Mudbutton is only going to work though if you can jam enough shuffle effects into a decklist to enable its selection. Blade Control decks run a whopping 21 shuffle effects (if Snap>Ponder) +3 Fateseal options in Jace. But we've all been on the receiving end of Jace-lock to know that controlling the draw step is a huge advantage. UR runs a relatively paltry 12 shuffle-like effects (Preordain) by comparison. It would not be difficult to match the UR numbers when you remember the Matron shuffles give you 4 effects, so 8 fetches would get you the same number of shuffles. What I'm just wondering now is whether it will have enough of an effect on the outcome of a game.

Has anyone had experience playing this card, and could you share your thoughts?

While I don’t have experience with this Card I did work on a Decklist with lower CMC. That was mainly because we have access to a lot of CMC=2 due to some recent prints.

Piledriver
Winstigator
Mogg War Marshal
cratermaker
Sparksmith
Grenzo RR
Grenzo RB
Dark Dweller Oracle

If you want to squeeze a lot of those cards in there with the goal to improve your curve you ultimately have to cut some lords, matron and ringleaders though. I didn’t find a list that I like yet.

On a different note: I came across an interesting combo that I’m using in my Commader deck.
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden

+

Mana Echoes

Revealing a goblin with grenzos ability will grant you at least one more activation for free. Things can spiral out of control pretty quickly if you are revealing something like mogg War Marshal or SGC, or if you starting point is more than just Grenzo+another creature.

I‘m wondering if that’s something we could work with.

Cheers
-GL

[Quackers]

While I don’t have experience with this Card I did work on a Decklist with lower CMC. That was mainly because we have access to a lot of CMC=2 due to some recent prints.

Piledriver
Winstigator
Mogg War Marshal
cratermaker
Sparksmith
Grenzo RR
Grenzo RB
Dark Dweller Oracle

If you want to squeeze a lot of those cards in there with the goal to improve your curve you ultimately have to cut some lords, matron and ringleaders though. I didn’t find a list that I like yet.

On a different note: I came across an interesting combo that I’m using in my Commader deck.
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden

+

Mana Echoes

Revealing a goblin with grenzos ability will grant you at least one more activation for free. Things can spiral out of control pretty quickly if you are revealing something like mogg War Marshal or SGC, or if you starting point is more than just Grenzo+another creature.

I‘m wondering if that’s something we could work with.

Cheers
-GL

HAH, that combo is hilarious. Unfortunately it costs 8 mana total to start. 2 for grenzo 4 for echos 2 for first activation. But I think it would be pretty damn hilarious to pull your entire deck out from the bottom of your library.

[Spiffy]

Hello everyone.

I have been playing this and only this deck in Legacy for the past 9 years. After taking a break of about 4 years from the game, I recently have been back giving these funny creatures a little testing and twisting every now and then.
I am playing a slightly revisited version of the decklist I used for many years (credit to Jim Davis for inventing this amazing build). It is in my opinion the most solid one, optimized for giving you a chance against almost any deck in the classic Legacy metagame environment and scenarios, although also being BY FAR the hardest one to play:


Main Deck:

4x Aether Vial

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Mogg War Marshal
1x Goblin Trashmaster
1x Goblin Cratermaker
1x Stingscourger
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Skirk Prospector

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Mountain
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Plateau

Sideboard:

2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Mindbreak Trap
2x Pyrokinesis
2x Containment Priest
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Goblin Trashmaster
1x Goblin Chainwhirler


There are few slots I am still not 100% sold on that require more testing as I am relatively new to the actual metagame, but for the most part this is what I will be working with and will use for providing inisghts, thoughts and anecdotes (on a not so regular basis :laugh:).

[jrw1985]

@spiffy
Welcome back, old friend. I’m looking forward to hearing how your build treats you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jrw1985]

Learned something new today. You can pull off the Kiki-Crafter combo with Trashman as the sac outlet so long as there is one artifact in play. You can do this because the Champion triggers happen after the Trashman activation, so you can copy, Champion, Crafter copy activate and sac before the first Trashman activation resolves. You can have infinite Trashman activations all targeting the same artifact, so the infinite damage combo works.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[johncarvalho]

Hey there!!

I want to start to build other decks and considered Goblins (the BR version, gotta put to use my badlands...), after some time playing several versions of the antiquities war decks. I found Goblins gameplay very satisfying and fun from what I have seen (I also played Zombardment, funniest deck ever, for quite some time, but the deck is just bad situated in my city's metagame, too many Eldrazi).

The other option would be Slivers, do you guys have any suggestions? Apparently Slivers is the stronger of the two but Im not sure if the gameplay is what I like.

[Eldariel]

Well, Goblins are always a metagame call. Slivers have the advantage of being able to run Force and blue cards in general while Goblins tend to prefer staying red. Slivers are just dead to non-basic hate while Goblins are pretty resilient to it. The biggest problem with this deck is obviously the combo match-up (just check out the sideboards, it's usually 12+ cards against various combo strategies and that doesn't suffice to bring those up to 50% generally). Perhaps the biggest exception is Show'n'Tell, which isn't that bad particularly if you have some number of Cratermakers and Stingscourgers in your 60 and some more in your 75. Storm is naturally the hardest since nothing you have interacts with it in any meaningful way (but Cabal Therapy is a great card). Well, Belcher is even worse but that deck is so bad against most of the format that nobody cares enough to play it.

If you have a lot of fair decks in your meta, such as the Eldrazi you mentioned, you can definitely craft Goblins to do well there. Eldrazi in particular is a nice example since Cratermaker is such a house there, blowing up their Chalices where necessary but also killing any of their creatures and even general utility stuff. They also don't particularly shine in answering your Lackeys. Thus, some anti-big-creatures build would be real nice in an Eldrazi-heavy environment assuming it's mostly the usual suspects otherwise in Delver/Grixis Control/D&T (Cratermaker is also a house here as they rely on their equipment against us)/Miracles/Combo. Though be warned, Goblins is a deceptively complex deck and figuring it out takes a lot of experience. I do think you'd want to run Waste/Port as anti-land effects are one of the better tools against Eldrazi and most control strategies, but you can fit that all in alongside black lands.

[johncarvalho]

Well, Goblins are always a metagame call. Slivers have the advantage of being able to run Force and blue cards in general while Goblins tend to prefer staying red. Slivers are just dead to non-basic hate while Goblins are pretty resilient to it. The biggest problem with this deck is obviously the combo match-up (just check out the sideboards, it's usually 12+ cards against various combo strategies and that doesn't suffice to bring those up to 50% generally). Perhaps the biggest exception is Show'n'Tell, which isn't that bad particularly if you have some number of Cratermakers and Stingscourgers in your 60 and some more in your 75. Storm is naturally the hardest since nothing you have interacts with it in any meaningful way (but Cabal Therapy is a great card). Well, Belcher is even worse but that deck is so bad against most of the format that nobody cares enough to play it.

If you have a lot of fair decks in your meta, such as the Eldrazi you mentioned, you can definitely craft Goblins to do well there. Eldrazi in particular is a nice example since Cratermaker is such a house there, blowing up their Chalices where necessary but also killing any of their creatures and even general utility stuff. They also don't particularly shine in answering your Lackeys. Thus, some anti-big-creatures build would be real nice in an Eldrazi-heavy environment assuming it's mostly the usual suspects otherwise in Delver/Grixis Control/D&T (Cratermaker is also a house here as they rely on their equipment against us)/Miracles/Combo. Though be warned, Goblins is a deceptively complex deck and figuring it out takes a lot of experience. I do think you'd want to run Waste/Port as anti-land effects are one of the better tools against Eldrazi and most control strategies, but you can fit that all in alongside black lands.

I started to get the pieces but it will take a while until I have everything. The Meta is full of other Goblins, DnT, Eldrazi, Miracles, Grixis, some Burn and with combo we have a couple turbo depths, many reanimator and a small number of show n tell. There is just one player with storm (but most of the time he plays Pox). The last monthly tournament we had around 50 ppl, and more than half were fair decks. I guess is just about adjust the deck to the meta.

I really liked the approach of BR with volrath's stronghold and using cabal therapy on the sideboard. Also loved that Earwig Squad dude! And Grenzo looks like an incredibly fun card. Also Oath of Ghouls is something I'm drawn to.
The ideas about CA and no piledriver/hastelords provided by jrw1985 also intrigued me a little bit. I tend to like the weirdest builds of the decks I play =)

[Spiffy]

Few notes about the combo matchup post-board

Qur primary goal to have a chance vs them is still to set up a fast enough clock to put pressure.
We should not try to fight his gameplan the hard way by spending our early turns to only cast spells whose aim is to merely disrupt them.

This is why I think cards like Chalice of the Void & Thorn of Amethyst are suboptimal in a classic build, and that we should ALWAYS run 4 Piledrivers maindeck.
Those guys are the only hope we have to bag a combo matchup, and they don't really make our deck worse vs fair ones.

All in all, I think the best build to optimize our chances in a unknown/diverse metagame is to add a black splash.
Earwig Squad and Cabal Therapy are insanely powerful cards to deploy vs Storm combo. Surgical Extraction and Mindbreak Trap follow them (I'd put Thalia and Relic of Progenitus in the 3rd tier).

Dredge is also possible to tackle thanks to cards like Pyrokinesis, Skirk Prospector, Gempalm Incinerator, Tarfire and Goblin Cratermaker that can get rid of Bridges.
Some degree of grave hate post-board is obviously needed (they can go off as early as T1 fairly frequently, so again Surgical shines here), but we can steal a decent amount of games without it if they go past the 2nd turn.

As far as the Reanimator matchup, I think we just have to accept the fact that we'll be toasted most of the time and there's very little we can do about it.
Sure Stingscourger, Karakas, Cabal Therapy and so on can give us a bit of hope, but don't expect to be good very often.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, with how bad the combo MU is, I feel like MD Cabal Therapy might be warranted. It's not bad in fair match-ups either (you can often guess a good card to name off their first land). Nowadays more and more decks are reliant on specific few cards against us instead of just trading 1-for-1 and trying to come out on top; see e.g. Stoneforge Mystic for D&T and Stoneblade decks, Kolaghan's Command for Grixis, Buried Alive for Phoenix, Terminus for Miracles (though of course, trying to snipe cards from Miracles is a bit of a thing as they just play the top of their deck; there you have to brute force their cantrips).

It does make your Ringleaders worse, and you can side it out where you expect to grind the opposition out the traditional way but I don't think going G1 without a hope of beating combo (short of Prowling an Earwig) is really the way to go. A single Therapy can snipe two key cards or a card through counter vs. Storm/Show'n'Tell/Turbo Depths (though that isn't even such a bad MU)/Reanimator/Elves (though here, removal creatures are more effective) buying you the time you need to get there with Lackey & co. Obviously your best card in all of these MUs is Lackey since they can't block nor remove it (usually), and it single-handedly gives you a turn 3-4 kill pretty reliably, and frees your mana up to disrupt them instead of needing it to cast your stuff.

I feel like a build without MD non-Goblins is better in a vacuum but in a metagame with a significant combo presence, I feel like MD interaction is warranted. And yeah, Earwig Squad is a nice bullet to Lackey > Matron for in combo MUs as well; Storm folds to it, Elves loses Hoof, Show'n'Tell...depends on their hand but you can see what they're holding from how many of each they have in their deck and remove 3 of the other piece, and even stuff like Miracles, Phoenix and Blade-decks lose much of their main gameplan (Terminus, Phoenix, equipment respectively). It's not perfect, nothing ever is, but it's surprisingly good if you have enough small dorks to somewhat reliably attack with.

[1GoblinLackey]

I wanna address a couple of comments just made regarding our combo matchups.

I've got 500 matches logged in MTGO leagues as of today (including a 5-0 today, woop woop). My datasheet's in my signature. MTGO is combo hell, and I think I've learned how to beat the combo decks more than anything else on MTGO. To be terribly honest, our combo matchups are legitimately better than we're willing to give ourselves credit for. Storm and Reanimator are the most popular decks on MTGO, and guess what? I'm just over 50% against Reanimator, and under 50% against Storm. The only combo matchup that I've been doing atrociously bad against is Sneak and Show (35%), but I've just had a lotta bad beats. I'm over 50% against Depths, solidly positive vs Dredge, etc. Being 40-55% against a wide range of combo is...really not bad. For the majority of my play, I've been playing RB builds with Cabal Therapies in the board, but sometimes I've gone without. I LOVE Therapy in the deck, and if you've got a lot of combo and control, it's strong, but maindeck therapies opens you up to a lot of problems. You get weaker against Miracles, and significantly worse against the Stompy decks. I'm got a 14 win record against mono red stompy, and 16-2 against Eldrazi. Without the strengths of the conventional builds, you're gonna lose some points in what should be our byes.

Also, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to DIVERSIFY YOUR HATE. Don't be 1-dimensional. Hit from every angle possible.

[Spiffy]

I wanna address a couple of comments just made regarding our combo matchups.

I've got 500 matches logged in MTGO leagues as of today (including a 5-0 today, woop woop). My datasheet's in my signature. MTGO is combo hell, and I think I've learned how to beat the combo decks more than anything else on MTGO. To be terribly honest, our combo matchups are legitimately better than we're willing to give ourselves credit for. Storm and Reanimator are the most popular decks on MTGO, and guess what? I'm just over 50% against Reanimator, and under 50% against Storm. The only combo matchup that I've been doing atrociously bad against is Sneak and Show (35%), but I've just had a lotta bad beats. I'm over 50% against Depths, solidly positive vs Dredge, etc. Being 40-55% against a wide range of combo is...really not bad. For the majority of my play, I've been playing RB builds with Cabal Therapies in the board, but sometimes I've gone without. I LOVE Therapy in the deck, and if you've got a lot of combo and control, it's strong, but maindeck therapies opens you up to a lot of problems. You get weaker against Miracles, and significantly worse against the Stompy decks. I'm got a 14 win record against mono red stompy, and 16-2 against Eldrazi. Without the strengths of the conventional builds, you're gonna lose some points in what should be our byes.

Also, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to DIVERSIFY YOUR HATE. Don't be 1-dimensional. Hit from every angle possible.

I think you are underestimating the impact of variance in such relatively small sample size (love your datasheet btw). It shows you at lower rate vs Elves, which is indeed a MUCH MUCH better matchup for us than Storm or BR Reanimator.
However, I completely agree on the BR build featuring Cabal Therapies (AMAZING card) & Squad dramatically improving our matchup vs Storm. I believe it actually turns it into a stone cold 50/50.

Any thoughts you can share about your Reanimator matchup experience and what do you usually bring from the board in order to deal with it and bang such solid results so far? How do you diversify your hate and what/if you use any on-the-board hate vs them?

[1GoblinLackey]

I think you are underestimating the impact of variance in such relatively small sample size (love your datasheet btw). It shows you at lower rate vs Elves, which is indeed a MUCH MUCH better matchup for us than Storm or BR Reanimator.
However, I completely agree on the BR build featuring Cabal Therapies (AMAZING card) & Squad dramatically improving our matchup vs Storm. I believe it actually turns it into a stone cold 50/50.

Any thoughts you can share about your Reanimator matchup experience and what do you usually bring from the board in order to deal with it and bang such solid results so far? How do you diversify your hate and what/if you use any on-the-board hate vs them?

You're totally right to mention sample size. I do think I've got a pretty good sense of the Storm and Reanimator matchups (they're my most common matchups), but the other stuff can be attributed to variance for sure. My Elves data is a little skewed by playing against Julian Knab a lot (arguably the best Elves player), so that's definitely a factor haha.

So with my most current build I bring in: 2 Surgical, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic, 2 Thorn, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Earwig Squad. When I have discard spells, I obviously bring all of those in. I also usually play a 2nd Tormod's Crypt over Relic, which is a pretty massive difference against Reanimator. I cut 3 Ringleader, 2 Gempalm, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Mogg Fanatic, 1 Chainwhirler. The reason to cut Whirler is that they frequently discard your Whirler, and then Reanimate it, which can cause some serious headaches. Leave Trashmaster as a quick clock that can potentially let you beat an Elesh Norn. In terms of playing the matchup, MULLIGAN TO HATE. If your hand doesn't stop them from making a turn 2 Griselbrand, mulligan. If they keep 7, I might just mulligan to Surgical or Crypt to be honest. Don't try to race them, it's not a real thing you can do without disrupting them once. Once you stop them from going off the first time, you do want to kill them relatively quickly (to shut off future reanimates/grisel activations), but getting to that step is secondary to "living past turn 2".

[johncarvalho]

You're totally right to mention sample size. I do think I've got a pretty good sense of the Storm and Reanimator matchups (they're my most common matchups), but the other stuff can be attributed to variance for sure. My Elves data is a little skewed by playing against Julian Knab a lot (arguably the best Elves player), so that's definitely a factor haha.

So with my most current build I bring in: 2 Surgical, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic, 2 Thorn, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Earwig Squad. When I have discard spells, I obviously bring all of those in. I also usually play a 2nd Tormod's Crypt over Relic, which is a pretty massive difference against Reanimator. I cut 3 Ringleader, 2 Gempalm, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Mogg Fanatic, 1 Chainwhirler. The reason to cut Whirler is that they frequently discard your Whirler, and then Reanimate it, which can cause some serious headaches. Leave Trashmaster as a quick clock that can potentially let you beat an Elesh Norn. In terms of playing the matchup, MULLIGAN TO HATE. If your hand doesn't stop them from making a turn 2 Griselbrand, mulligan. If they keep 7, I might just mulligan to Surgical or Crypt to be honest. Don't try to race them, it's not a real thing you can do without disrupting them once. Once you stop them from going off the first time, you do want to kill them relatively quickly (to shut off future reanimates/grisel activations), but getting to that step is secondary to "living past turn 2".

Hey man! Your spreading sheet is crazy, I was just looking at it. Thats some commitment, congratulations on that!!!

I noticed on your last decklist only 3 ringleaders, and its the 5-0 list. Looks like it worked. Also, I noticed you dont use black leyline in any of the lists. Is that a particular reason for that?

Another note, now about the Reanimator Matchup, when I play with my Zombardment list, discard is usually boarded out... You bring in all the hate possible, play them and let them deal with it while you start your clock. You cant dilute your deck so much, sometimes you name entomb and they have looting, you name reanimate and they have exhume, anyway... mulligan to hate and let them deal with it.

Im sitting on a list that im bringing together on paper, missing only the stronghold, vials and lackeys now (will probably borrow to play with it today, I hope...). The list is based on the CA and lower curve list by jrw and tinkered to work on my current metagame, with some considerations I also found here.

BR Goblins

Main:
4 Aether Vial
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Earwig Squad
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
3 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Trashmaster
2 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Goblin Trashmaster
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Oath of Ghouls
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Karakas

Maybe piledriver can become a second stingscourger maindeck because of the heavy reanimator/depths/show and tell presence on my meta. Looks like parking a vial on 2 vs those decks is the best option. Warren Weirding was another option, but it is much weaker because its a sorcery and you cant vial it in. I have only goldfished with the deck and it looks pretty fun and strong!:tongue:

[jrw1985]

Has anyone done testing around Blood Sun? I was wrecked by it recently when it came down T1 and I had a hand full of fetches and I was really surprised at its power. It does a lot of the cool stuff that Moon also does and at the same price, but Sun also cantrips. The cantrip is what intrigues me because that effect makes the card much more maindeckable. It helps Goblin’s grindy games.

Now there are a few weakness to playing Sun. Most importantly you’ll have to build a mana base without Cavern or Fetches, but that should be fine. It’s weaker in some MUs than Moon but it’s pretty conditional. In Eldrazi for instance, Sun is worse against Cloudpost but better against Vesuva. It’s worse against City of Traitors but better against Eye of Ugin. Either way, you’re still drawing a card off of it which you would not with Moon.

Interested to hear thoughts and experiences.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kombatkiwi]

Has anyone done testing around Blood Sun? I was wrecked by it recently when it came down T1 and I had a hand full of fetches and I was really surprised at its power. It does a lot of the cool stuff that Moon also does and at the same price, but Sun also cantrips. The cantrip is what intrigues me because that effect makes the card much more maindeckable. It helps Goblin’s grindy games.

Now there are a few weakness to playing Sun. Most importantly you’ll have to build a mana base without Cavern or Fetches, but that should be fine. It’s weaker in some MUs than Moon but it’s pretty conditional. In Eldrazi for instance, Sun is worse against Cloudpost but better against Vesuva. It’s worse against City of Traitors but better against Eye of Ugin. Either way, you’re still drawing a card off of it which you would not with Moon.

Interested to hear thoughts and experiences.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's an interesting suggestion.
I think it's not compatible with goblin builds that play fetchlands.
It's not too big of a nonbo with cavern: if you play Cavern before Blood Sun then your cavern is totally unaffected. If Blood Sun is already on the battlefield before Cavern then your Cavern just enters as Wastes (I'm assuming that interaction is the same as with Blood Moon)

One additional thing that Blood Sun does not stop is the lifegain ability of Grove.
It's also less effective against multicolour fair decks like Grixis/RUG Delver, and Cloudpost, like you mentioned. (Or even the non-post versions of Eldrazi)

I think it's a possible consideration for the sideboard in the same vein as blood moon but I don't think it's ever maindeckable

[menph]

Hi there,
Goblin matron will be reprinted in modern horizon.
Looks like we'll see a new era of goblin in modern format.
Also other new or old goblin will come out in this set very likely :cool:

[DerLebkuchenmann]

Dear Goblin-Friends!
I am going to play the following list at a local FNM. I would appreciate if an experienced player could tell me some of his thoughts on my deck:

Lands:
4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
4 x Cavern of Souls
11 x Mountain

CMC 1:
4 x Aether Vial
4 x Goblin Lackey
1 x Skirk Prospector

CMC 2:
4 x Mogg War Marshal
3 x Goblin Piledriver
2 x Goblin Cratermaker
4 x Gempalm Incinerator

CMC 3:
4 x Goblin Matron
4 x Goblin Warchief
1 x Goblin Sharpshooter

CMC 4:
4 x Goblin Ringleader
1 x Goblin Trashmaster

CMC 5:
1 x Siege-Gang Commander

SIDEBOARD:
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Relic of Progenitus
3 x Thorn of Amethyst
2 x Pyrokinesis
1 x Goblin Chainwhirler
2 x Stingscourger
1 x Goblin Cratermaker
1 x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 x Lightning Crafter


Info:
Stingscourger: I expect some Decks with Griselbrand
Goblin Cratermaker: I really hate Eldrazi
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker: I want to have the option to deal infinite damage
Lightning Crafter: Combo with Kiki-Jiki


Thanks a lot!

[Morte]

Dear Goblin-Friends!

Can someone please tell me how to "link in the cards" ?

Thanks a lot!

Official link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18250-ANNOUNCEMENT-Card-tags-(2-0!)&p=472496&viewfull=1#post472496)


To provide a card, or a list of cards (see below) with a tooltip/hyperlink, you need to put {CARDS} before its name and {/CARDS} after it, replacing the { } brackets with the [ ] that are used in this forum.

[DerLebkuchenmann]

Official link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18250-ANNOUNCEMENT-Card-tags-(2-0!)&p=472496&viewfull=1#post472496)


To provide a card, or a list of cards (see below) with a tooltip/hyperlink, you need to put {CARDS} before its name and {/CARDS} after it, replacing the { } brackets with the [ ] that are used in this forum.


Thanks Morte! I fixed it.

[GoboLord]

Dear Goblin-Friends!
I am going to play the following list at a local FNM. I would appreciate if an experienced player could tell me some of his thoughts on my deck:

Lands:
4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
4 x Cavern of Souls
11 x Mountain

CMC 1:
4 x Aether Vial
4 x Goblin Lackey
1 x Skirk Prospector

CMC 2:
4 x Mogg War Marshal
3 x Goblin Piledriver
2 x Goblin Cratermaker
4 x Gempalm Incinerator

CMC 3:
4 x Goblin Matron
4 x Goblin Warchief
1 x Goblin Sharpshooter

CMC 4:
4 x Goblin Ringleader
1 x Goblin Trashmaster

CMC 5:
1 x Siege-Gang Commander

SIDEBOARD:
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Relic of Progenitus
3 x Thorn of Amethyst
2 x Pyrokinesis
1 x Goblin Chainwhirler
2 x Stingscourger
1 x Goblin Cratermaker
1 x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 x Lightning Crafter


Info:
Stingscourger: I expect some Decks with Griselbrand
Goblin Cratermaker: I really hate Eldrazi
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker: I want to have the option to deal infinite damage
Lightning Crafter: Combo with Kiki-Jiki


Thanks a lot!

You will be fine with the decklist you posted. It has all the core elements that the deck needs in order to work.
If you know what decks you are likely to face, you could do some fine-tuning, depending on what decks you want to gain %s against.

Based on my personal preferences (which dont have to match yours and which aren't necessarily good for your local meta) I would consider the following changes:

* -1 Mogg War Marshal, +1 Cratermaker (because I think it's a better card by itself)
* move Sharpshooter to the maindeck and Chainwhirler to the sideboard, because Chainwhirler requires little to no setup in order to work
* OR move Shaprshooter to the sideboard and add 1 Sparksmith
* if you want sideboard cards vs. Griselbrand, I think 1 Stingscourger is enough as a silver-bullet. I would cut the 2nd one for Karakas
* I would cut the Kiki-Crafter combo entirely, because it doesn't really improve any MU. There are a lot of versatile SB cards that work in a variety of MU - I like to play 3-4 Chalice of the Void in unknown meta, for example.

[Scott]

I don't play Goblins so I have no idea if R/B Goblins wants a Gempalm Incinerator that doesn't cycle and can be countered, but gets on the battlefield and can hit planeswalkers.

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/273/567/200/283/636939775039559559.jpeg

[Quackers]

I don't play Goblins so I have no idea if R/B Goblins wants a Gempalm Incinerator that doesn't cycle and can be countered, but gets on the battlefield and can hit planeswalkers.

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/273/567/200/283/636939775039559559.jpeg

I did a thing.

Munitions Expert (RB)
Creature-Goblin
Flash
When Munitions Expert enters the battlefield, you may have it deal damage to target creature or planeswalker equal to the number of goblins you control.

Pros:
• Extra Body Count
o T1 Lackey T2 kill x/2s
o Deals 1 damage on an empty board
o More resilient to removal
o Additional Blocker
• Synergies
o Repeatable with Kiki-Jiki
o Stronger Piledrivers
o Stronger Trashmaster
o Stronger Gempalms
o Stronger Skirk Prospector
• Targets Planeswalkers
o Better used to target creatures blocking for planeswalkers and attacking the planeswalker
o Can lower a planeswalker enough to sneak in damage to finish them off
o Most Legacy Planeswalkers start with low loyalty, therefore you do not need many goblins out to kill them outright.
Cons:
• Mana Restriction
o ~10-15% of your games will not have BR by turn 2 if you mulligan to 5 (Not taking into account for Vial) 23 Land, 4 Waste, 4 Port, 4 Cavern, 6 Fetch, 3 Mountain, 2 Badlands
Y 87
0 58
1 15
2 14

N 13
2 13


• Warchief Does not Lower the cost
• Not as reliably uncounterable

[DerLebkuchenmann]

New Card:

Goblin Engineer 1R
Creature - Goblin Artificer (rare)
Power 1 ; Thoughness 2

When Goblin Engineer enters the battlefield, you may search your library for an artifact Card, put it into your graveyard, then Shuffle your library.

R, tap, Sacrifice an artifact: Return target artifact Card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield

///
Does it make sense to sac an Aether Vial or Chrome Mox to target an:
Umezawa's Jitte, Bow of Nylea, Adaptive Automaton, Crucible of Worlds, Godsend, Phyrexian Soulgorger, or Goblin Lyre ? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[DerLebkuchenmann]

New Card:

Goblin Engineer 1R
Creature - Goblin Artificer (rare)
Power 1 ; Thoughness 2

When Goblin Engineer enters the battlefield, you may search your library for an artifact Card, put it into your graveyard, then Shuffle your library.

R, tap, Sacrifice an artifact: Return target artifact Card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield

///
Does it make sense to sac an Aether Vial or Chrome Mox to target an:
Umezawa's Jitte, Bow of Nylea, Adaptive Automaton, Crucible of Worlds, Godsend, Phyrexian Soulgorger, or Goblin Lyre ? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Sword of the Meek :eyebrow:

[kombatkiwi]

Sword of the Meek :eyebrow:

It's kind of cool that you can dump e.g. Sword with 1 Engineer, then bring it back from the graveyard, then play a 2nd engineer to dump something useful, then sac the Sword to bring the other thing back, but it is slow and requires multiple engineers

There is also Scrapheap Scrounger if you want to do this line (and you have black mana) which is probably a better card in general for the deck than Sword of The Meek

[DerLebkuchenmann]

It's kind of cool that you can dump e.g. Sword with 1 Engineer, then bring it back from the graveyard, then play a 2nd engineer to dump something useful, then sac the Sword to bring the other thing back, but it is slow and requires multiple engineers

There is also Scrapheap Scrounger if you want to do this line (and you have black mana) which is probably a better card in general for the deck than Sword of The Meek

@kombatkiwi:
To be honest, I just thought that Sword of the Meekcould be usefull by itself to +/+ for example Goblin Lackey or Warren Instigator ... but meanwhile I think it is kind of weak/not good enough.

But Crucible of Worlds for a Wasteland Loop is funny! Especially against LANDS-Deck ! ! !

[johncarvalho]

Really excited about the new black goblin! Any thoughts on him?

Sling-Gang Lieutenant
3B
Creature - Goblin
When Sling-Gang Lieutenant enters the battlefield, create two 1/1 red Goblin creature tokens.

Sacrifice a Goblin: Target player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.

[DerLebkuchenmann]

Really excited about the new black goblin! Any thoughts on him?

Sling-Gang Lieutenant
3B
Creature - Goblin
When Sling-Gang Lieutenant enters the battlefield, create two 1/1 red Goblin creature tokens.

Sacrifice a Goblin: Target player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.

Same as with Munitions Expert could be really good in some situations, but i think most of the time it will not be worthy to play it.

[DerLebkuchenmann]

!!! NEW CARD !!!

Pashalik Mons 2R
Legendary Creature - Goblin Warrior

Whenever Pashalik Mons or another Goblin you control dies, Pashalik Mons deals 1 damage to any target.
3R, sacrifice a Goblin: Create two 1/1 red Goblin creature Tokens.

Power/Toughness: 2/2

I think Goblin Sharpshooter is still better because it triggers for each creature and Pashalik Mons only for Goblins you control ... of course the activated ability is a bit more grindy...

Your thoughts?

[Mantis]

@Munitions Expert:
I find myself losing to Jace TMS quite often. Having access to Munitions Expert increases the odds of immediately dealing with Jace before you get buried under card advtange. I think I will pick up RBg Goblins again with 4 copies of Munitions Expert in the maindeck and probably will remove 3 of the 4 copies of Gempalm Incinerator in order to do so.

@Sling-Gang Lieutenant:
This seems to be a 1-of at most, but it looks promising. The only problems it solves are Ensnaring Bridge (we have access to several other methods of getting around Bridge already) and Burn. However, it also seems to be a card that you are not unhappy to see especially in lists that pack multiple copies of Chieftain/Thrashmaster. With a Chieftain alone, that's 12 damage already!

@Goblin Engineer:
One of the struggles with Vial Goblins has been that you need a solid sideboard strategy against various combo decks in Legacy. Sideboard space is always an issue and concessions against certain decks have to be made. Could Goblin Engineer possibly be a viable sideboard strategy?

Something along the lines of:
4 Goblin Engineer
2 Goblin Welder
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge (for Sneak and Show)
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Expedition Map
1 Thorn of Amethyst/Trinisphere
1 Winter Orb
1 Tangle Wire
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sorcerous Spyglass

Other potential targets include Ratchet Bomb, Torpor Orb, Spellskite and Phyrexian Revoker.

Upsides:
- Versatile sideboard and you can be prepared for all matchups.
- You can stay mono red and still be able to combat all decks.
- This configuration seems really good against decks such as Pox and Lands.

Downsides:
- Several decks in legacy are fast and having your hatecard on turn 3 may be too late, especially on the draw.
- The mainboard needs to contain several artifacts: Great Furnace, Chrome Mox and Aether Vial come to mind.
- In many of the post sideboard matchups you will want to sideboard out Aether Vial to retain a relatively high number of Goblins for Ringleader, but likely need to keep it in to have a sufficient number of artifacts.
- In some matchups, you don't want to sideboard in your toolbox, so you are basically stuck with the 60 preboard cards.

Would this be a strategy to consider or is it garbage? At the moment, I feel that this is the only strategy where Goblin Engineer could be worthwhile in a traditional Goblins list.

[Grumpollion]

Might Morophon be good in a winstigator list?

[jrw1985]

Might Morophon be good in a winstigator list?

Well, if you’re connecting with Winstigator you don’t really get a benefit from the casting cost reduction, so the only thing your getting is the pump and a large body. Chieftain gives you the pump at less than half the casting cost.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kombatkiwi]

My speculative decklist with the new cards:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mountain
3 Badlands
5 Red Fetchlands

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Chirurgeon
2 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Sparksmith
1 Munitions Expert
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Pashalik Mons
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Earwig Squad

2 Warren Weirding

[Memories of the Time]

I think that the more we go toward a "sac-aristocrats" build, the more we want Munition Expert over Gempalm or -even more- Weirding

[Vinz35]

Hi everyone,

I'm building a B/R version of the deck but I won't be able to buy Badlands. Should I go for the Blood Crypts instead and add more fetchlands ? or add some Prismatic Vista and some basic lands ? Auntie's Hovel :-) ?
I already have 2 Wooded Foothills and 1 Bloodstained Mire.

What would you do ?

Thanks !

[Kobra_D]

Hi everyone,

I'm building a B/R version of the deck but I won't be able to buy Badlands. Should I go for the Blood Crypts instead and add more fetchlands ? or add some Prismatic Vista and some basic lands ? Auntie's Hovel :-) ?
I already have 2 Wooded Foothills and 1 Bloodstained Mire.

What would you do ?

Thanks !

I would probably try to get away with a single bloodcrypt first. Some people have been looking into vista with a basic swamp. If your black is for volrath's stronghold though, you probably want at least 2 sources to help protect from wasteland.

Depending on your meta though you can often get away with the shock, at least one. It isn't ideal but does the job well. However, if it becomes too much of a problem I guess Hovel could work. I've never been a huge fan of it since you kind of need to add 4 wasteable lands to your deck to expect it early enough. Where as 6 fetchlands puts 7 sources in with only 1 badlands/bloodcrypt/swamp.

[Vinz35]

thanks for the advice !

[mckeks91]

Anyone realized that if we cut Ports and wastes and replace lackey with WI we can now play our beloved green men in modern?😱 dunno if its good there but Ill try it just cause why not 😀

[from Cairo]

I played Rb tonight at a local 3rder testing 2 Munitions Expert, 1 Pashalik Mons and 1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant.

Munitions Expert was great, it killed a Monastery Mentor off Cavern and a Narset vs Miracles, it killed off some Goblin Welders/Engineers vs Painter and a Goblin Guide against Burn.

The Pashalik Mons felt underwhelming, I London Mulliganed it to the bottom competing against a Mogg War Marshall vs burn at 3cc the two abilities seem too slow. It and Skirk Prospector did an impression of Goblin Sharpshooter vs Painter, but given the choice Sharpshooter works better. It requires board presence / interaction / synergies. It’s neat that it stacks with Sharpshooter/Prospector/Sling-Gang. Goblins as a deck that has too many 3cc already imo.

Sling-Gang Lieutenant felt really good. I topped my curve at 4 with Ringleaders, it and Trashmaster. It stabilized me versus Burn in two games and provided a huge clock with Chieftain/Goblin Trashmaster draining people out for 5-8 in the games Lackey runs away with also was impressive. I’m happy with one of so far, but the card felt really good.

For reference I was on:

4 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Rishadan Port
1 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshall
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Skirk Prospector
2 Munitions Expert
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Pashalik Mons
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant

Going forward idk how exactly I want to configure my mana. I have Vistas in the mail, maybe those. The Basic Swamp was super awkward in some mulligans, I might just run an extra Badlands/Fetch - having Swamp to synergize with Bloodmoon Sb might be worth it tho, small sample so far.

As mentioned I didn’t love the value on Pashalik Mons, I’m considering another Chieftain, Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, another Cratermaker, not sure yet. I could also see turning this slot to a 7th 4cc card and shifting the mana to 0 Swamp 3 Badlands 3 Port to provide an extra effect on T2.

3 Thoughtseize
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Bloodmoon
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

I realize I would like an Earwig Squad Sb. That might take the slot of a Thoughtseize.

It would be cool to hear others’ initial impressions of these few Modern Horizons cards and how to configure the deck.


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[DerLebkuchenmann]

Warchiefs and Chieftains!

I know it is offtopic but you may watch 1 Minute and therefore laugh 10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9dSVh873Xg

will never off Topic again i promise :) at least it is about Legacy (and two decks in our matchup)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Warchiefs and Chieftains!

I know it is offtopic but you may watch 1 Minute and therefore laugh 10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9dSVh873Xg

will never off Topic again i promise :) at least it is about Legacy (and two decks in our matchup)Thank you, it was really just the best thing I have seen this summer.

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[Bichon_Blitz]

Warchiefs and Chieftains!

I know it is offtopic but you may watch 1 Minute and therefore laugh 10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9dSVh873Xg

will never off Topic again i promise :) at least it is about Legacy (and two decks in our matchup)

I remember seeing this video years ago right after the ban. Still cracks me up.

[ScatmanX]

Hey,
Wrote a bit about what I've been testing the last few weeks with the new cards. Let me know what you think =)
https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/the-boys-are-back-in-town/

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[mistercakes]

I like that the food chain version is much better now due to sling gang.

[ScatmanX]

True. Before you needed sgc and a Prospector to filter the mana.
Sling gang is so busted.

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[jrw1985]

Sling Gang is a great card. It provides bodies to boost the primary beatdown plan, it adds reach to help run through blockers and get value out of blocking, and it allows for an alternative win condition that can actually get through a Glacial Chasm or Energy Field.

[jrw1985]

Warren Weirding: Good now, or GREAT now?


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[joaquin]

So I know this isn't a modern thread, but recently I've been wondering if you guys think goblins is currently stronger as a legacy deck or as a modern deck.
Some of my hardest matchups in legacy are against decks that can win on turn 1 or 2 with force of will backup and what not, and those decks aren't nearly as strong or resilient in modern. Turn 1 prospector isn't nearly as strong as lackey but not having wasteland or port isn't as big of a deal in modern I think.

By the way how have people been doing with legacy goblins these days? Seems like were back to being a little under the radar.

One more theoretical question: if goblin recruiter were ever to be unbannned (I doubt that will happen as it can cause a lot of slowplay scenarios) would we play it in vial goblins? Or would that be more of a card for the food chain version of the deck?

[kombatkiwi]

So I know this isn't a modern thread, but recently I've been wondering if you guys think goblins is currently stronger as a legacy deck or as a modern deck.
Some of my hardest matchups in legacy are against decks that can win on turn 1 or 2 with force of will backup and what not, and those decks aren't nearly as strong or resilient in modern. Turn 1 prospector isn't nearly as strong as lackey but not having wasteland or port isn't as big of a deal in modern I think.

By the way how have people been doing with legacy goblins these days? Seems like were back to being a little under the radar.

One more theoretical question: if goblin recruiter were ever to be unbannned (I doubt that will happen as it can cause a lot of slowplay scenarios) would we play it in vial goblins? Or would that be more of a card for the food chain version of the deck?

I think it would see play in Vial Goblins as basically a Ringleader / Matron split card
For example if you really need a card to deal with an opponent's threat, even if you don't have much mana and still want to draw lands, you can vial/cast it on 2, as a worldly tutor for some silver-bullet card like Stingscourger or Chainwhirler.
Then in the lategame if you just want card advantage you can search for a stack with Ringleader on top and 4+ Goblins below and next turn you will topdeck Ringleader and be guaranteed to hit all 4 with it, so even though you have to wait 1 turn it seems on average it could be better than if the Recruiter was just a Ringleader you need to get lucky with in the first place.

No idea about modern at the moment though

[Ace/Homebrew]

No idea about modern at the moment though
Jim Davis is giving it a try. He just got 14th at the SCG Modern Classic outside of Philadelphia.

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/131263

[jrw1985]

I saw that most of the top Legacy decks run way more mana or land-equivalent cards than we do. Eldrazi and Dark Depths run 30 mana/land cards, Delver decks and Miracles run 28 when you consider cantrips as nothing more than a way to make a land drop. The deck with the fewest lands/mana is DnT. They run 24 lands and 4 Vials (which are sort of a mana source) so their manabase is very similar to ours, but they have a much lower curve and are also monoW. I wondered if I upped the number of lands in the deck from a standard high of 24 up to 26 lands how that would affect land drops and Ringleader reveals. I might as well run the numbers on land drops and Ringleaders. Assuming a 60 card deck and the standard high end of 24 lands vs 26 lands, and 32 Goblins vs 30 Goblins, what are the basic questions we need to answer?...
1) What are the odds of blanking with Ringleader? 32Goblins 4.5% .... 30Goblins 6% ... 1.5% difference
2) What are the odds of hitting 4 goblins off Ringleader? 32G 6.9% ... 30G 5.2% ... 1.7% difference
3) What are the odds of hitting 2 or more goblins off Ringleader? 32G 73.2% ... 30G 68.1% ... 5.1% difference
4) What are the odds of having 0 lands in your opening hand? 24Lands 2.2% ... 26Lands 1.4% ... 0.8% difference
5)What are the odds of having 2 or more lands in your opening hand? 24L 85.7% ... 26L 89.6% ... 3.9% difference
6) What are the odds of having 6 or more lands in your opening hand? 24L 1.3% ... 26L 2.2% ... 0.9% difference
7) What are the odds of having 2 or more lands T2 on the play? 24L 91.0% ... 26L 93.8% ... 2.8% difference
8) What are the odds of having 3 or more lands T3 on the play? 24L 78.9% ... 26L 84.6% ... 5.7% difference
9) What are the odds of having 4 or more lands T4 on the play? 24L 63.2% ... 26L 71.6% ... 8.4% difference
10) What are the odds of having 5 or more lands T5 on the play? 24L 46.7% ... 26L 56.7% ... 10.0% difference
11) What are the odds of having 6 or more lands T6 on the play? 24L 31.9% ... 26L 42.0% ... 10.1% difference
10) What are the odds of having 7 or more lands T7 on the play? 24L 20.2% ... 26L 29.0% ... 8.8% difference
Here's what jumps out at me from the numbers: Those 2 lands that are no longer goblins cards don't have a huge impact on ringleader performance. Whether you're running 30 or 32 goblins your odds of blanking or hitting four off Ringleader are pretty slim. And more likely than not, you're drawing two or more goblins either way. Running a higher concentration of Goblins in your deck will no doubt make Ringleader performance marginally better, but a 2-goblin-card-difference will not change the expected results of a Ringleader in a meaningful way. TL;DR - Your Ringleaders are generally drawing you two cards either way.
Now here's a more impactful area: Land Drops. How those two extra lands affect land drops is much more significant. Early land drops do not see much difference between a 24 and 26 land build. Your chances of being mana screwed or flooded T1 are both pretty slim. What becomes significant is your ability to make land drops as the game goes on. Your odds of hitting your 3rd and 4th land drops are fairly better with 26 lands, but the real difference shows up on the 5th land drop, because with 26 lands you are more likely than not to hit your 5th land drop, with 24 lands you are more likely than not to miss your 5th land drop.
I'm not going to try to calculate odds of mana-flood because there are two many variables. I have lost plenty of games to mana-flood where I still drew 3-4 non-land cards. Those games feel like flooding because you drew the wrong non-land cards, not because you drew too many lands. It's obvious to assume that a 26 land build would flood out more often, I just can't think of how to define "flooding" for the sake of calculating.
As always, all odds are brought to you by Stattrek!
https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

[egoblinsw]

I saw that most of the top Legacy decks run way more mana or land-equivalent cards than we do. Eldrazi and Dark Depths run 30 mana/land cards, Delver decks and Miracles run 28 when you consider cantrips as nothing more than a way to make a land drop. The deck with the fewest lands/mana is DnT. They run 24 lands and 4 Vials (which are sort of a mana source) so their manabase is very similar to ours, but they have a much lower curve and are also monoW.

This is a valid consideration, but think of Lackey as a mana source. A 23 land goblins deck is running 31 cards whose only real purpose is playing other cards (23 + 4 vial + 4 lackey)

[jrw1985]

This is a valid consideration, but think of Lackey as a mana source. A 23 land goblins deck is running 31 cards whose only real purpose is playing other cards (23 + 4 vial + 4 lackey)

I thought about that, but ultimately decided Lackey has too many strings attached to be a mana-like-source in my analysis.

Another note: The 25th land makes you more likely than not to make your 5th land drop t5!

[egoblinsw]

I thought about that, but ultimately decided Lackey has too many strings attached to be a mana-like-source in my analysis.

Another note: The 25th land makes you more likely than not to make your 5th land drop t5!

I don't think that'ss good thinking though. Because Lackey doesn't do anything else, you have to count it as a mana source, because otherwise it's just a dead card.

[egoblinsw]

Tried out a Goblin Engineer with mixed results.
made T8 at Gaming for Gains (7 rounds 5-1-1, loss to storm in T8) dropped 2-2 at another 7 round event more recently

My artifact package was 3 Engineer, with 3 Chrome Mox, 4 Great Furnace, 3 Chalice of the Void, 4 Aether Vial, 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Crucible of Worlds. I also went a bit heavier on the sideboard artifacts, with a tormod's crypt and grafdigger's cage as part of my GY hate, and one thorn one damping sphere.


My biggest concern with this package is that it leaves me a lot more vulnerable to wasteland. However, I was able to win multiple games in both events of the Jitte, and won two matches off of a tutored crucible as well. I'm enjoying MD chalice a lot, and trimmed a lot of my biggest top-end cards (kiki, 4th ringleader, krenko, settler) to accomodate a different build.

I have really only been struggling against delver, especially Wrenn + Six delver. Where are we at with fighting through goyfs+wasteland?

[jrw1985]

What’s your list?


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[egoblinsw]

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Engineer
3 Munitions Expert
2 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Chainwhirler

4 Aether Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Badlands
3 Fetchland
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Plague Engineer
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Pyrokinesis
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Warren Wierding
1 Pithing Needle
1 ??

[ScatmanX]

I'm case anyone missed it, here's mines, Eli's, Olaf's and Steven's takes on the new cards.
https://thesaltminesite.com/2019/07/31/the-gobcast-episode-2-modern-horizons/

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[jrw1985]

@egoblinsw

Cool list! I like the artifact package. What I dont like is how Engineer needs a Warchief, but it is what it is. I ran basically the exact same artifact package in my EDH Goblins deck. You might want to cut 1-2 Chalice to make room for more land drops. Relic of Progenitus is a great SB card for Goyf and W6 and it works well with the Engineer.


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[egoblinsw]

@egoblinsw

Cool list! I like the artifact package. What I dont like is how Engineer needs a Warchief, but it is what it is. I ran basically the exact same artifact package in my EDH Goblins deck. You might want to cut 1-2 Chalice to make room for more land drops. Relic of Progenitus is a great SB card for Goyf and W6 and it works well with the Engineer.


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My only problem with relic is that it exiles itself, so you can't reuse it like crypt. That said, the cantrip is nice. I think I want to cut the moxen for a combination of mountain and darksteel citadel. I think having enough non-wasteable sources is important, but also feel the need to keep up the artifact count. Mox is consistently asking for a card I don't really have from my hand.

[egoblinsw]

I'm case anyone missed it, here's mines, Eli's, Olaf's and Steven's takes on the new cards.
https://thesaltminesite.com/2019/07/31/the-gobcast-episode-2-modern-horizons/

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Listened this morning, and was surprised how high on sling-gang everyone is. I hadn't tried it yet, but I want to now. Are you playing it over Siege-Gang, or do you think one of each is better? My list is also running out of space a few years ago.

[Memories of the Time]

Listened this morning, and was surprised how high on sling-gang everyone is. I hadn't tried it yet, but I want to now. Are you playing it over Siege-Gang, or do you think one of each is better? My list is also running out of space a few years ago.

Sling-gang is so better than Siege-Gang, it's an entire different field. SGL has won by himself an incredible number of games where no other cards could have done anything in time, and has many function that SGC doesn't have (racing TNN or reaching 21+ life vs Depths, for example). You have to try it to understand, really one of the strongest addition at the deck.

Anyway, cool list with engineer, i've thinkered (lol) with him too when it was spoiled, then the meta is shifted away from too many combos on MTGO so i've left it. I was trying something way more heavy, bc one of the main problem i founded was
1) It's slow
2) Often you don't have an artifact to switch even if it survives

So i would try this list: MD Chalice is a must rn for me, i've made a 5-0 at the yesterday league on mtgo thx to him

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Trinisphere

4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Goblin Engineer
1 Pashalik Mons
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Munitions Expert
1 Legion Warboss
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Badlands
3 Mox Opal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial

1 Warren Weirding

Sideboard

1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Damping Sphere
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Stingscourger
2 Plague Engineer
3 Blood Moon
1 Surgical Extraction

[egoblinsw]

So i would try this list: MD Chalice is a must rn for me, i've made a 5-0 at the yesterday league on mtgo thx to him

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Trinisphere

4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Goblin Engineer
1 Pashalik Mons
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Munitions Expert
1 Legion Warboss
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Badlands
3 Mox Opal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial

1 Warren Weirding

Sideboard

1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Damping Sphere
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Stingscourger
2 Plague Engineer
3 Blood Moon
1 Surgical Extraction

Not sure Im ready to go lackeyless...

I seem to remember the dredge math being ~ 13 cards to best optimize having one dredger / discard outlet. That's what I was aiming for with my list (14 0-1 mana artifacts)'
Jitte is much better than SOFI IMO... did you try it out?

[Memories of the Time]

Not sure Im ready to go lackeyless...

I seem to remember the dredge math being ~ 13 cards to best optimize having one dredger / discard outlet. That's what I was aiming for with my list (14 0-1 mana artifacts)'
Jitte is much better than SOFI IMO... did you try it out?

I've been playing lackeyless for months now, it's not really its meta bw W&6, Engineer, Tarmogoyf and so on =/
Jitte could absolutely be better than Sofi, that's the "equip" slot we can say

[ScatmanX]

Listened this morning, and was surprised how high on sling-gang everyone is. I hadn't tried it yet, but I want to now. Are you playing it over Siege-Gang, or do you think one of each is better? My list is also running out of space a few years ago.Yeah, Sling-gang is miles better than sgc. The life gain, not having to pay mana, being a 4 drop... Everything matters so much in so many different situations, it's hardly a fair comparison anymore in my book.

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[jrw1985]

Yeah, Sling-gang is miles better than sgc. The life gain, not having to pay mana, being a 4 drop... Everything matters so much in so many different situations, it's hardly a fair comparison anymore in my book.

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I cut SGC long ago because 5cmc is just too expensive. Sling-Gang has been an incredible replacement.


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[jrw1985]

This Goblins thread has been too dead for too long! Wrenn & Six is no more, so you can play Lackey on the draw again. I've been having a great time and a lot of success playing goblins on MTGO recently, even before the Wrenn ban, and I think Goblins should be decently positioned post-ban. My favorite recent additions to the deck include a 25 land manabase, Wort, Chirgurgeon and RB Grenzo. Now the question is, what will be MVP post-Wrenn?

[kombatkiwi]

Lands
4 Waste
4 Port
4 Cavern
3 Mountain
3 Badlands
5 Fetchlands
[23]

Core Engine
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
[39]

Core Toolbox
1 Chirurgeon
1 Expert
1 Cratermaker
1 MWM
1 Stingscourger
3 Rabblemaster
1 Chieftain
1 Mons
1 Gempalm
1 Sling
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Trashmaster
1 Earwig Squad
2 Warren Weirding
[56]

Tech Slots
1 Tarfire
1 Chainwhirler / Sharpshooter
2 of any: Cratermaker#2 / Expert#2 / Sparksmith

Without Wrenn in the format small creatures may make a comeback, so Shooter and Sparksmith become more appealing because they handle small creatures and you don't have to worry about them dying to Wrenn. Possibly Mons makes these unnecessary. (It should at least mean for sure you don't need both shooter and whirler). Unfortunately Plague Engineer is still a thing though

I may be convinced to play at least one Piledriver now even though I have been against it for a while, depending on the significance of protection from Oko. Possibly this is irrelevant because Driver still doesn't line up very well against free 3/3s. (Interestingly if your opponent makes their Astrolabe into an Elk you can't Cratermaker it anymore either because it becomes green). I have seen some people cutting Trash from the main but maybe it should find its way back because it seems like an effective way to break through Astro/Food spam (Baleful Strix may make a bit of a comeback also)

[jrw1985]

I dig the list. You on MTGO? If so, what's your handle? I'm super creative with mine (jrw985).
Your list should treat you well. One suggestion though: Ancient Tomb! You're running Rabblemaster, Cratermaker, Matron and Earwig Squad. AT enables T2 plays and really speeds you up. I think you should 100% cut 2 Ports for 2 Tombs and will be happy with the results.
For your flex slots, my experience lately with 2 Tarfires has been excellent. It is a clean answer to Plague Engineer and so much more. To that end, I would not play Sharpshooter because it plays into Engineer too well for your opponent. I also wouldn't run Chainwhirler because of the mana requirements.
I don't know if Sparksmith will be good (looks too slow to deal with Arcanist), but I like running multiple Cratermaker over multiple ME (Crater is better against Engineer and Equipment).

[kombatkiwi]

I dig the list. You on MTGO? If so, what's your handle? I'm super creative with mine (jrw985).
Your list should treat you well. One suggestion though: Ancient Tomb! You're running Rabblemaster, Cratermaker, Matron and Earwig Squad. AT enables T2 plays and really speeds you up. I think you should 100% cut 2 Ports for 2 Tombs and will be happy with the results.
For your flex slots, my experience lately with 2 Tarfires has been excellent. It is a clean answer to Plague Engineer and so much more. To that end, I would not play Sharpshooter because it plays into Engineer too well for your opponent. I also wouldn't run Chainwhirler because of the mana requirements.
I don't know if Sparksmith will be good (looks too slow to deal with Arcanist), but I like running multiple Cratermaker over multiple ME (Crater is better against Engineer and Equipment).

I've thought about playing tomb and think it could definitely be a good idea, unsure if it would be worth replacing ports but worth considering.
I do play MTGO but only pauper at the moment.
More cratermakers seems like the most safe option: the other thing I don't like about playing too many Expert is the RB manacost

[jrw1985]

the other thing I don't like about playing too many Expert is the RB manacost

It's a RB deck now! Get with it. You're running enough B cards that your manabase should be able to support any number of ME.
My manabase, for reference:
Lands [25]
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Prismatic Vista
1 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

[kombatkiwi]

It's a RB deck now! Get with it. You're running enough B cards that your manabase should be able to support any number of ME.
My manabase, for reference:
Lands [25]
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Prismatic Vista
1 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

well, yeah you can cut ports for black sources, but overall I don't think this is worth it if you're doing it just to support 1-2 Munitions Expert

[Secretly.A.Bee]

well, yeah you can cut ports for black sources, but overall I don't think this is worth it if you're doing it just to support 1-2 Munitions ExpertIt's for Warren Weirding, Slingback Lieutenant and Earwig Squad, too.

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[kombatkiwi]

It's for Warren Weirding, Slingback Lieutenant and Earwig Squad, too.

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I'm aware of which cards in the list have black mana symbols on them but all those 3 can be cast off 1 badlands + anything.
Sling and squad also have higher cmc so you have more time to find the black source and they are also castable off cavern, so they don't need the help as much (at least compared to weirding), so I think you can play them in a list with 4 waste and 4 ports without worrying about the mana

On the other hand I think trying to play more cards that cost BR is a much greater demand on your coloured sources

[jrw1985]

How best to deal with the Arcanist Problem?
There seem to be several strategies for dealing with it. First off is standard Goblins spot removal. This is a bit of a problem though because our spot removal options aren't great at dealing with an x/3 T2. A combination of Fanatic/Gempalm/Lackey attacks/MunE can all add up to dealing with a T2 Arcanist, but the pieces need to be in place and you need to dodge early spot removal or counters from the Arcanist player. This is the line that fits the standard builds of Goblins, but it's also unreliable against an early Arcanist. It also isn't an option if you keep a slow Vial hand and you don't have an early Goblin in play.

The second way to deal with Arcanist is with 1:1 removal that is more powerful than the standard options, but comes with drawbacks of its own. Cards like Nameless Inversion and Warren Weirding can both kill a T2 Arcanist flat-out, but they will also require a T2 proper B source to cast them (not Caverns).

The third option is to get tricky with cards that invalidate Arcanist. Chalice of the Void @1 and Grafdigger's Cage both shut Arcanist recursion down, but whether those are maindeckable is questionable, and Arcanaist is popular enough that Goblins needs a maindeck answer. Unsettled Mariner has shown potential, as it's taxing effect makes their spot removal inefficient, but it does nothing to stop Arcanist recurring cantrips, and it comes with a drawback of a completely revamped manabase.

I'm leaning towards building around Nameless Inversion right now. Not only does it kill Arcanist, but it also takes care of Plague Engineer without playing into Plague Engineer.

I woud love to hear how others are building around Arcanist and what their gameplan is to deal with it.

[jrw1985]

My experience so far against Arcanist: You just need to play out your hand to go wide until you can deal with it. It’s an easy card to chump block one you have 3 power on board, so just jam your spells and hope they run out of gas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[L10]

The "best" way to deal with Arcanist is to block with Cratermaker, then shock it; assuming there are not removal spells. This works best with Vial.

[jrw1985]

I've been thinking about sideboarding strategies lately, specifically how to quantify the number of sideboard slots we need to dedicate to certain matchups. My framework centers around 2 criteria I have identified. The first is a concept I refer to as the Critical Turn, that being the turn in which the opposing deck makes a game winning play. Reanimator, for example, doesn't actually kill you until turn 4, but its Critical Turn is T1, since that is when it generally reanimates the fatty it kills you with. ANT, on the other hand, is more of a T2 deck for their Critical Turn. Depths , SnT, Elves, those are closer to T3 for their Critical Turn. The difference in Critical Turns is important because it means you have extra draws to topdeck a sideboard card that appropriately interacts. My Critical Turn assumptions per deck (T1 for Reanimator, T2 for ANT, etc) are also not hard and fast rules. You can use different numbers if you perceive the matchup differently.

The Second criteria that I think is important to apply is Necessary Trumps. Necessary Trumps refers to the number of interactive cards (trumps) you need to have drawn by the Critical Turn in order to be likely to win. For Reanimator I assume the number of Necessary Trumps is 1, because dealing with one reanimation target is often all you need to win the game. For a deck like ANT, which plays more discard and bounce spells AND has more ways to find them, the Necessary Trump number is 2. You can assume one of your trumps will be answered, so you need to have drawn a 2nd in order to stay competitive. Again, like with Critical Turns, I don't claim to have the perfect number selected. This is more an exercise in building a framework for sideboarding.

Now that we have our criteria selected (Critial Turns and Necessary Trumps) we can plug that information into a hypergeometric calculator to identify the number of trumps needed in order to hit a level of certainty. In our Reanimator example (CT1, NT1) 6 trumps will give us a greater than 50% chance of having drawn one in our opening hand. If we want to increase that likelyhood to 65%+ then we need to run 8 trumps. Sideboarding against ANT (CT2, NT2) requires a much higher number of trump cards due to the higher NT number. To have a 50% chance of having your 2 Necessary Trumps by Critical Turn 2 you will need to run 12 trump cards. If you want to increase that likelihood to 65%+ you will need to run 15.

Now that we have established the number of trumps we wish to run for all the matchups we care about (generally the combo decks of the format) we can start building sideboard and maindeck to accomodate the numbers we''ve calculated. Sideboard cards like Leyline of the Void fill CT slots for Reanimator and ANT, whereas REB fills slots against SnT and ANT while also being a great sideboard card against non-combo decks that don't present a Critical Turn threat. Likewise, cards like Pithing Needle are great against Depths and SnT, but can also be brought in against DnT to target their equipment.

This looks like crap, but here are the numbers I've calculated thus far...
Deck Critical Turn Trumps Needed >50%
Reanimator 1 1 6
ANT 2 2 12
Depths 3 2 11
SnT 3 2 11
Elves 3 2 11

Here's the sideboard I built to accomodate these numbers...
4 Leyline
2 Thorn
2 Needle
2 Relic
2 Plague Engineer
2 REB
1 Karakas

Against Reanimator I have 1 Karakas and 4 Leyline, plus 1 Karakas MD = 6
For ANT I have 4 Leyline, 2 Thorn, 2 Relic, 2 PEngineer, 2 REB = 12
Depths 2 Needle, 1 Karakas + Maindeck 4 Wasteland, 1 Karakas, 1 Weirding, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Sling-gang = 11
Show and Tell 2 Thorn, 2 Needle, 2 REB, 1 karakas + MD 1 Karakas, 1 Weirding, 1 Stingscourger, 2 Cratermaker = 12
Elves 2 Plague Engineer, 2 Needles + a buncha DM removal = more than 11.

I hope that this is a useful approach to some of you and that you can use this framework to help design your own decklists tuned to the metas you expect to face. Again, I'm not trying to say my designations of Critical Turn or Necessary Trump values are accurate, or that my listed card choices are correct. I'm just trying to create a solid framework for our deckbuilding, and I hope it makes sense and is helpful.

[jrw1985]

Here's my spreadsheet, updated with chances on mulls to 4. I believe you should be able to copy and paste if you want to use this with your own Critical Turn and Necessary Trump assumptions.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cmVayZzWMKYGCWpINkaJ3BqrflZBMZKutFUawOJUMUw/edit?usp=sharing&fbclid=IwAR0BDdyzVBBmFDpYNhpRZHCQLeDAcbA_YjcGhIx4NEdPtPxjArDnlov3-HU

[eatbasics]

Hi guys, I am a long time Goblin fan and came up with a version of the deck with which I had quite some success online.
Here is the list:


MD
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Instigator
4 Mogg Warmashal
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Sling-Gang Commander

1 Morophon, the Boundless
2 Squee, the Immortal
4 Food Chain

3 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Gemstone Caverns

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Goblin Cratermaker
2 Alpine Moon
1 Goblin King

Sideboard is uncertain, but is not the main focus of my post. The Maindeck is basically an Instigator List, coupled with Food Chain combo (Squee, Sling-Gang, Food Chain), but it should also work with a more traditional goblin core. With the Instigator core you have a highly aggressive core that sometimes lands an early morophone or outputs a lot of damage and Sling-Gang closes out the game. On the other hand, if the game goes longer or there is a road block, Food Chain shines in ramping to Ringleaders or winning on the spot with Squee+Sling-Gang combo. This gives the deck a lot more reach and attacks the opponent from different angles: Overwhelm them with Instigator power, close out the game with Sling-Gang power, exalerate with Food Chain power or win the game with Combo power.

Sidenotes:
*It feels great to combo out "real" combo decks
*Squee + Gemstone Caverns = Love
*Mogg Warmarshal is the best Food Chain ramper after Squee
*Plague Engineer is mean, without main deck answers only Morophon can save us all (and Chieftain)
*Manabase is wackey and "only" 22 lands, but Food Chain, Vial and 8 Lackeys kinda make up for it
*Yes, 61 cards

Please feel free to comment. I would be glad if someone else tests this beauty and gives feedback.

Until then keep in mind that some goblins are expendable and some are impossible to get rid of :wink:

[jrw1985]

List looks awesome! A few things jump out at me... 1st, since you're rocking Winstigator and Squee, perhaps More Squee and more Chrome mox/Gemstone Cavern? It would give you more ways to accelerate into the combo. 2nd, how about Piledriver over MWM? I know MWM only nets you one more mana off of Food Chain, but Piledriver gives you T3 kills Lackey>Sling>Piledriver (with the help of an opponent's fetch or another goblin to play t3). 3rd, is Morophon really necessary? You alreay have 4 Chieftain pumps. I feel like Morophon would be better if it was just a Trashman or another Squee. 4th, I'll bet you can cut Vial and run 4 more goblins or more lands instead. You've already got 8 cheats + 4 Food Chain. Some Prospectors and/or Chrome Mox might suite you better.

Keep us updated on your results and progress with the deck! It looks like fun.

[mistercakes]

i'm wondering if a 1 or 2 of imperial recruiter would help this deck out. if you have food chain in play it's a great way to find any missing piece. (it's no matron, but it finds almost everything.)

also with 8 lackeys in the deck, might it make sense to run 1 kiki-jiki?

[Ox411]

hows it going?
ive been playing goblins on and off for a long time. just recently ive decided id like to go from all red to red and black. the cards im interested in adding are:
munitions expert (2 or 3)
sling gang lieutenant (1 or 2)
warren weirding (1 or 2)
and maybe an earwig squad (but im kind of leaning away from this one)
my list recently has been:
4 lackey
4 matron
4 ringleader
4 vial
4 warchief
3 gemplam
3 cratermaker
2 piledriver
2 stingscouger
2 war marshal
2 chainwhirler
1 chieftain
1 trashmaster
1 krenko, mob boss

4 cavern of souls
4 wasteland
3 rishadan ports
12 mountains

im planning on taking out 8 mountains and putting in 4 badlands and 4 bloodstained mires. to support the black mana

do you guys have any advice on adding black goblins?

thanks

[jrw1985]

Sure thing! Run 2 Sling-Gang main and 2-3 Munitions Expert. Sling Gang is awesome and worth running in multiples. Weirding probably isn't great right now. The fatties ignore it for the most part and fair decks just don't care. You definitely don't want to run a Weirding into a Snapcaster, Coatl, or Elk. You're just falling further behind at that point. And TNN has fallen by th wayside thanks to Plague Engineer, so you don't need an answer for TNN quite like you used to. You do need a way to deal with Engineer though, so pack some Tarfires somewhere. One Stingscourger should be enough for the current meta. And Earwig Squad is decent too since combo seems to be everywhere, especially online.

[Humphrey]

No comments on this yet? https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=32562&iddeck=284098


Seems the definite list for now or he lucked out

[DerLebkuchenmann]

No comments on this yet? https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=32562&iddeck=284098


Seems the definite list for now or he lucked out

I dont like this list. I like prefer either mox/winstigator/chief or either mwm/warchief style.

But I am sure he did not lucked out. I think he just played better than the others, and well maybe the list is really good.

[jrw1985]

No comments on this yet? https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=32562&iddeck=284098


Seems the definite list for now or he lucked out

Tons of comments on this, just not on this forum. Marcelo (ScatmanX) is the man and this list is legit. 2x Sling Gang is the new normal. There are a bunch of lists on tcdecks that are derived from this one that have had success in Marcelo's wake. But, yeah, this sort of list is the standard these days.

[Humphrey]

cool, but is sharpshooter better than mons? i never really liked ss and he is not available in new frame foil :(

[DerLebkuchenmann]

cool, but is sharpshooter better than mons? i never really liked ss and he is not available in new frame foil :(

Maybe because he wanted to have a maindeck "answer" against Empty the Warrens (in addition to his sideboard Goblin Chainwhirler ) ? Or it has just flavour reasons :cool:

[jrw1985]

I made Top 8 of a 73 player Legacy tournament yesterday with trusty Rb Goblins.
61 Cards
4 Vial
4 Lackey
1 Skirk Propector
2 Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
3 Munitions Expert
3 Cratermaker
2 Gempalm
1 Chieftain
1 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Trashmaster
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1 Chainwhirler
1 Pashalik Mons
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Badlands
4 Mountain
6 Fetch

Sideboard
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Planar Void
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Mindbreak Trap

R1 - Goblins Mirror!
Always a bummer getting paried up in the mirror. I wish every goblins player could win every match. I took both games. Remember in the mirror that Gempalm counts goblins on both sides, Munitions Expert only counts them on your side.
1-0

R2 TES
I lost game 1 and heavily sided for G2and3. Don't bring in graveyard hate against TES. It does not play out of the yard except for Echo of Eons which takes significant hate to answer, so it's better to interact with Chalice @ 0 or Thorn/Null Rod. REB on a cantrip is always a fair move too. Skirk Prospector is especially good specifically for that reason (casting REB while being tapped out).
2-0

R3 Miracles
I won G1 by setting up double removal on Mentor and Vialing in Sling-Gang for lethal in response to opponent's responses. G2 I mulled to 4 and lost. It happens. G3 my opponent has a legitimate Miracle on an Entreat which he did not set up. This enabled him to play an early 4/4 which kept me from attacking into his board. We exchanged sideboard cards (his Council's Judgement for my Chalice @ 1, my REB for his B2B) but having that early miracle Angel gave him the edge and when he Entreated for 4 later that was game.
2-1

R4 Burn
G1 Sling-Gang got active so I won. G2 I locked him out behind Chalice @1 and Chalice @2, but I still would have lost had he drawn Firecraft + Fireblast instead of 1+2 drops.
3-1

R5 Dark Depths
Lost G1. Won G2 off of multiple Wastelands and Chalice @2 to lock out Hexmage. Won G3 off of Needle on Hexmage and multiple Wastes, then Sling-Gang to pump me to 21 and win on the swing-back.
4-1

R6 Bant Food Chain
I win both games off Piledriver being bascially unblockable (sorry Coatl/Griffin) and getting lucky because my opponent assembled the Food Chain/Griffin combo but didn't find a payoff card.
5-1

R7 ID 5-1-1

Top 8 Hogaak Combo
I lose both games in similar fashion. T1 Lackey cannot get through T1 Hedron Crab. Lacking Lackey blockers used to be a weakness of Zombardment decks, but Crab does a great job and spams the yard like a motherfucker. I really like how Hogaak combo plays cards from the hand like a regular deck (Crab, Careful Study, Stitcher's Supplier) and gets explosive value out of the yard. G2 I keep an opener with 2 Relic, and they are no match for T1 Crab. I should have been running Leylines in my board or at least Grafdigger's Cage instead of Planar Void. Chalice @ 1 can really shut this deck down as it counters all the fair cards that allow them to abuse the yard. Having Pyrokinesis for removing their early enablers at instant speed is important too. If you can Pyro away Crab and/or Stitcher you are free to Relic or remove their yard and they will not have any responses. It seems like this, like other combo matchups, just needs to be over-boarded against if possible.

Final Thoughts:
Sling Gang is awesome, and I really like it as a double slot. Chieftain was great, much better than Warchief, as Chieftain does a much better job of going wide and pressuring. Pyrokinesis was great and I should have boarded it in against Hogaak to answer an early Crab. Relic and Planar void were bad, and would have served me better as Grafdigger's Cage or Leyline. Null Rod and Thorn did what they were supposed to against TES. Needle was great against Depths. Chalice was great as well (though I did side it out on the draw vs Depths). I think changing the sideboard -1 Relic, -1 Planar Void, +2 Grafdigger's Cage would be fair. I also would not mind cutting a Port from the main for a MD Karakas. Port wasn't bad yesterday, it just wasn't relevant.

[Humphrey]

So I made the jump and invested 200€ to get the missing modern foil cards.
Dont think Ill ever come back to Legacy, because the format is pretty dead in my region.

Im happy I can play my deck from 2010 again :D

[arcane7828]

I made Top 8 of a 73 player Legacy tournament yesterday with trusty Rb Goblins.
61 Cards
4 Vial
4 Lackey
1 Skirk Propector
2 Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
3 Munitions Expert
3 Cratermaker
2 Gempalm
1 Chieftain
1 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Trashmaster
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1 Chainwhirler
1 Pashalik Mons
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Badlands
4 Mountain
6 Fetch

Sideboard
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Planar Void
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Mindbreak Trap

R1 - Goblins Mirror!
Always a bummer getting paried up in the mirror. I wish every goblins player could win every match. I took both games. Remember in the mirror that Gempalm counts goblins on both sides, Munitions Expert only counts them on your side.
1-0

R2 TES
I lost game 1 and heavily sided for G2and3. Don't bring in graveyard hate against TES. It does not play out of the yard except for Echo of Eons which takes significant hate to answer, so it's better to interact with Chalice @ 0 or Thorn/Null Rod. REB on a cantrip is always a fair move too. Skirk Prospector is especially good specifically for that reason (casting REB while being tapped out).
2-0

R3 Miracles
I won G1 by setting up double removal on Mentor and Vialing in Sling-Gang for lethal in response to opponent's responses. G2 I mulled to 4 and lost. It happens. G3 my opponent has a legitimate Miracle on an Entreat which he did not set up. This enabled him to play an early 4/4 which kept me from attacking into his board. We exchanged sideboard cards (his Council's Judgement for my Chalice @ 1, my REB for his B2B) but having that early miracle Angel gave him the edge and when he Entreated for 4 later that was game.
2-1

R4 Burn
G1 Sling-Gang got active so I won. G2 I locked him out behind Chalice @1 and Chalice @2, but I still would have lost had he drawn Firecraft + Fireblast instead of 1+2 drops.
3-1

R5 Dark Depths
Lost G1. Won G2 off of multiple Wastelands and Chalice @2 to lock out Hexmage. Won G3 off of Needle on Hexmage and multiple Wastes, then Sling-Gang to pump me to 21 and win on the swing-back.
4-1

R6 Bant Food Chain
I win both games off Piledriver being bascially unblockable (sorry Coatl/Griffin) and getting lucky because my opponent assembled the Food Chain/Griffin combo but didn't find a payoff card.
5-1

R7 ID 5-1-1

Top 8 Hogaak Combo
I lose both games in similar fashion. T1 Lackey cannot get through T1 Hedron Crab. Lacking Lackey blockers used to be a weakness of Zombardment decks, but Crab does a great job and spams the yard like a motherfucker. I really like how Hogaak combo plays cards from the hand like a regular deck (Crab, Careful Study, Stitcher's Supplier) and gets explosive value out of the yard. G2 I keep an opener with 2 Relic, and they are no match for T1 Crab. I should have been running Leylines in my board or at least Grafdigger's Cage instead of Planar Void. Chalice @ 1 can really shut this deck down as it counters all the fair cards that allow them to abuse the yard. Having Pyrokinesis for removing their early enablers at instant speed is important too. If you can Pyro away Crab and/or Stitcher you are free to Relic or remove their yard and they will not have any responses. It seems like this, like other combo matchups, just needs to be over-boarded against if possible.

Final Thoughts:
Sling Gang is awesome, and I really like it as a double slot. Chieftain was great, much better than Warchief, as Chieftain does a much better job of going wide and pressuring. Pyrokinesis was great and I should have boarded it in against Hogaak to answer an early Crab. Relic and Planar void were bad, and would have served me better as Grafdigger's Cage or Leyline. Null Rod and Thorn did what they were supposed to against TES. Needle was great against Depths. Chalice was great as well (though I did side it out on the draw vs Depths). I think changing the sideboard -1 Relic, -1 Planar Void, +2 Grafdigger's Cage would be fair. I also would not mind cutting a Port from the main for a MD Karakas. Port wasn't bad yesterday, it just wasn't relevant.

Thanks for the report! :D it was a good read

[jrw1985]

https://i.imgur.com/sOyZh5y.png

[FTW]

https://i.imgur.com/sOyZh5y.png

I'll repost here for discussion.

Snoop + Boggart Harbinger -> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Snoop gets Kiki's ability but is nonlegendary, letting you tap to make infinite tapped Snoops.
Then you copy Harbinger to get Mogg Fanatic or Sling-Gang Lieutenant on top and sac them all to win.

That's a turn 3 win curving out T2 Snoop into T3 Harbinger.

Matron and Ringleader should improve the consistency of assembling that later in the game.

Kiki and the extra tutors seem to fit better in WInstigator builds. WInstigator means Chrome Mox, which also theoretically enables a turn 2 win:
T1 Mox, Snoop
T2 Harbinger -> win

You can even make both uncounterable with Cavern!

Something like this to start:

//Lands: 20
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
5 Snow-Covered Mountain

//Artifacts: 7
3 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial

//Goblins: 33
1 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Conspicuous Snoop
3 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Munitions Expert
4 Boggart Harbinger
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

//Sideboard: 15
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pyroblast
1 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Stingscourger

Sideboard is rough, but toolbox seems good with that many tutors main.

[Michael Keller]

Goblin Wizard? Also, isn't Skirk Prospector broken with Snoop?

[FTW]

Goblin Wizard? Also, isn't Skirk Prospector broken with Snoop?

Prospector is very strong with Snoop, but Kiki is even more broken (infinite Snoops).

Without the Kiki combo, abusing Prospector would mean chaining Mogg Rituals (MWM) and other cards, which requires a very different build and is harder to set up without Goblin Recruiter legal. I have an example of how you can break Prospector-Snoop with Recruiter in EDH in the spoiler thread, but it seems too durdly for Legacy.

Prospector could work as a tutorable 1-of with the Kiki combo, but it's a bit win-more. You already have infinite bodies and infinite pings, and now you can get infinite red mana too.

[KobeBryan]

goddamn that snoop card is good.

[Humphrey]

https://www.wn.de/var/storage/images/wn/startseite/freizeit/ausgehen/musik/3924675-westcoast-is-back-snoop-dogg-dankt-sich-selbst-auf-neuem-album/109463702-1-ger-DE/Westcoast-is-back-Snoop-Dogg-dankt-sich-selbst-auf-neuem-Album_image_1024_width.jpg

[Dr.Jones]

"Snoop gets Kiki's ability but is nonlegendary, letting you tap to make infinite tapped Snoops"

You can't do that, read the card

[Lemon]

"Snoop gets Kiki's ability but is nonlegendary, letting you tap to make infinite tapped Snoops"

You can't do that, read the card

Which card? It seems to me that it works.

Snoop says "As long as the top card of your library is a Goblin card, Conspicuous Snoop has all activated abilities of that card."
Kiki, a goblin, has "{T}: Create a token that’s a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control, except it has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step."

So if Kiki is the top card, Snoop gains it's activated ability. This allows it to tap to create a token that's a copy of target non-legendary creature you control. Snoop then taps targeting itself (Snoop is not legendary). Once the ability resolves, there is 1 tapped Snoop and 1 untapped Token Copy of Snoop with haste. This token copy also has "As long as the top card of your library is a Goblin card, Conspicuous Snoop has all activated abilities of that card.", and therefore also gains Kiki's ability to create a copy of itself (or the original Snoop if you so please). This is repeated until you have as many Snoops as you want. Thus infinite tapped Snoops.

[Dr.Jones]

Which card? It seems to me that it works.

Snoop says "As long as the top card of your library is a Goblin card, Conspicuous Snoop has all activated abilities of that card."
Kiki, a goblin, has "{T}: Create a token that’s a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control, except it has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step."

So if Kiki is the top card, Snoop gains it's activated ability. This allows it to tap to create a token that's a copy of target non-legendary creature you control. Snoop then taps targeting itself (Snoop is not legendary). Once the ability resolves, there is 1 tapped Snoop and 1 untapped Token Copy of Snoop with haste. This token copy also has "As long as the top card of your library is a Goblin card, Conspicuous Snoop has all activated abilities of that card.", and therefore also gains Kiki's ability to create a copy of itself (or the original Snoop if you so please). This is repeated until you have as many Snoops as you want. Thus infinite tapped Snoops.

my bad it works actually

[KobeBryan]

Which card? It seems to me that it works.

Snoop says "As long as the top card of your library is a Goblin card, Conspicuous Snoop has all activated abilities of that card."
Kiki, a goblin, has "{T}: Create a token that’s a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control, except it has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step."

So if Kiki is the top card, Snoop gains it's activated ability. This allows it to tap to create a token that's a copy of target non-legendary creature you control. Snoop then taps targeting itself (Snoop is not legendary). Once the ability resolves, there is 1 tapped Snoop and 1 untapped Token Copy of Snoop with haste. This token copy also has "As long as the top card of your library is a Goblin card, Conspicuous Snoop has all activated abilities of that card.", and therefore also gains Kiki's ability to create a copy of itself (or the original Snoop if you so please). This is repeated until you have as many Snoops as you want. Thus infinite tapped Snoops.

Unfortunately. It still needs a third card to win.

[FTW]

It's a 2-card combo. A+B = win.

Sorry, I thought the combo rules interaction was obvious from reading the cards. I'll explain it in more detail.

A = Conspicuous Snoop

B = Boggart Harbinger

With these 2 cards resolved, you can go infinite and win the game.

Here's how it works.

Step 1: Cast Snoop. It has summoning sickness. Pass the turn.

Step 2: Cast Boggart Harbinger. For its trigger, put Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker on top of your library.

Step 3: Snoop gains all activated abilities from Kiki. However Snoop does not copy other things, like the legendary type.

Step 4: Tap Snoop: Use Kiki's ability. Target Snoop (itself), which is a legal target because its a nonlegendary creature.

Step 5: The Snoop/Kiki ability resolves. Create an untapped 2/2 Snoop token copy with haste. It gains Kiki's ability as well.

Step 6: Repeat Steps 4 & 5. The result is infinite tapped 2/2 Snoop tokens and 1 untapped Snoop token.

Step 7: Tap the last Snoop token: Use Kiki's ability targetting Boggart Harbinger.

Step 8: The Snoop/Kiki ability resolves. Create an untapped Harbinger token copy with haste. For its trigger, put Sling-Gang Lieutenant on top of your library. Kiki gets shuffled away.

Step 9: All the tapped Snoop tokens now gain the Sling-Gang activated ability and lose Kiki's ability.

Step 10: Sacrifice all the Snoop tokens to Sling-Gang the opponent and drain 9999999 life


You could replace Sling-Gang Lieutenant with Mogg Fanatic and also ping the opponent to death. Fanatic lets you ping creatures too, if there are hatebears to remove like True Believer or Platinum Emperion before you can kill the opponent.

To pull that off, all you need is a Snoop without summoning sickness and a Boggart Harbinger to manipulate your top card.
That can win the game as early as turn 3 with Cavern of Souls protection on both pieces.

Tempo tricks:
-With Chrome Mox you can curve out T1 Snoop, T2 Harbinger and win on turn 2.
-Aether Vial lets you play Snoop EOT to avoid passing the turn
-hastelords give Snoop haste, letting you play both pieces in one turn (Vial or Lackey helps)

Why play combo in Goblins?
Because you can. Combo is Goblins' worst matchup, and this A+B tribal combo lets you actually race.
It's also a more compact win condition than the usual Piledriver + hastelord + bodies, which should be easier to assemble vs control after Matrons and Ringleaders.
Also Snoop is good on its own.

[ScatmanX]

Unfortunately. It still needs a third card to win.
It doesn't. It does take a turn longer though.
You can make all the copies in your opponent endstep. Then your turn you just untap and swing.
Granted, you're more susceptible to removal, but it does work with just the 2 cards.

[KobeBryan]

It doesn't. It does take a turn longer though.
You can make all the copies in your opponent endstep. Then your turn you just untap and swing.
Granted, you're more susceptible to removal, but it does work with just the 2 cards.

I wrote it wrong. You still need one more card to win on the spot

[wolfstorm]

Lackey has ended friendship with Siege-gang commander.

https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/cqhiHLc-YDMcn3oS/w:574/h:799/q:75/https://bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Muxus-Goblin-Grandee-mtg-card.jpg

is now new best friend.

[Humphrey]

i think muxus is a legit 1of, maybe even 2of in the sb against control

[FTW]

I wrote it wrong. You still need one more card to win on the spot

You need 2 cards to win on the spot: Conspicuous Snoop + Boggart Harbinger
(Harbinger finds both Kiki and Fanatic/Sling-Gang)

I guess no one read my wall of text above.

Muxus takes the spot of best Lackey drop though.

[chunderbucket]

How about a turbo list that seeks to get out a Muxus or a Snoop combo as soon as possible?

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Muxus, Goblin Grandee
4 Conspicuous Snoop
4 Chrome Mox
2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker
1 Boggart Harbinger
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Rakdos Charm (for that sweet Goblin Lackey interaction)
4 Munitions Expert
4 Goblin Matron

4 Cavern of Souls
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
8 Mountain
2 Wasteland

This list is dumb but it can power out uncounterable t2 wins. Worst case you just cast a bunch of dudes for value and turn them sideways.

[Pittplayer]

How about a turbo list that seeks to get out a Muxus or a Snoop combo as soon as possible?

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Muxus, Goblin Grandee
4 Conspicuous Snoop
4 Chrome Mox
2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker
1 Boggart Harbinger
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Rakdos Charm (for that sweet Goblin Lackey interaction)
4 Munitions Expert
4 Goblin Matron

4 Cavern of Souls
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
8 Mountain
2 Wasteland

This list is dumb but it can power out uncounterable t2 wins. Worst case you just cast a bunch of dudes for value and turn them sideways.

Why is Harbinger a 1 of? Figure you would want to run 3-4 of that one. And Rakdos Charm seems real bad here. T2 charm isnt what I would think this deck really wants to do. And I'm not sure if cutting vials is good. Maybe?

[chunderbucket]

I put Harbinger as a 1-of because it's a relatively bad card outside the combo. Rakdos Charm is fun because it triggers Lackey in its last mode and randomly hoses GY/artifacts but maybe that's too cute. This is of course all very rough and sketchy, I just want to go as fast as possible.

[FTW]

I put Harbinger as a 1-of because it's a relatively bad card outside the combo. Rakdos Charm is fun because it triggers Lackey in its last mode and randomly hoses GY/artifacts but maybe that's too cute. This is of course all very rough and sketchy, I just want to go as fast as possible.

That could be a reason to have more than 0 Rakdos Charm in the SB. But if you just want to trigger Lackey for 2 mana, there are cards like Stingscourger, Warren Weirding, Gempalm Incinerator, Tarfire, or Goblin Cratermaker (doesn't help for turn 2 connection, but better card overall). Just remove the blocker. The upside is removal is also good when you don't have Lackey.

Muxus is a good enough payoff to run some "force Lackey through" cards.

[Lejay]

If you want to get lackey through I would play Smoldering Spires first. You may need the additionnal land drops for your six-mana goblin.

[jrw1985]

If you want to get lackey through I would play Smoldering Spires first. You may need the additionnal land drops for your six-mana goblin.

Congrats on your 5-0 the other day! I get the CT main. What was the inspiration for Ghost Quarter over Port?

[Lejay]

I don't think port is that good, I often can and prefer to fill the board. You mostly destroy special lands with wasteland like dark depths and Ghost Quarter does that (and it improves the sb surgical plan for thespian decks). It's also two additionnal wastelands versus decks without basics like tempo and since players tend to fetch basics versus you anyway it also is quite good after they fetched their 1/2/3 basic(s). Guessing how many basics they have on a read isn't that hard and there are stock lists (for exemple ANT always plays 2 basics). Finally it can fix my colored mana in emergency situations which is sometimes a problem in goblins (and I would say regularly if you play ports).


Edit : if you really want to know the inspiration (if I understand correctly), I got it from my old goblins list from a few years ago. Already no ports, GQ, Swamp, Sparksmith, and since goblins were quite bad at dealing with tarmogoyf my main removal back then was 3x Stingscourger + 4x Cabal Therapy main. When I discovered the Modern Horizons goblins two weeks ago I first played a league with a list with ports even though I was already skeptical, then used GQ and adjusted the numbers, then went all in on playing the cards I liked. Didn't change a slot after that move. I went 5-0, 5-0, 1-4 with this list. Not planning to play in the near future.

[Ox411]

If kiki winds up in your hand, like from natural draws or Ringleader, is the combo dead? Or theres a way to still do it?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Brainstorm :tongue:

[jrw1985]

If Kiki winds up in hand, congratulations, you get to play a Kiki. Just win that way. You don't need to re-assemble the Snoop combo when you can just play a Kiki and win like Goblins always has with Kiki (copying Piledirvers, Matrons, etc).

[FTW]

If Kiki winds up in hand, congratulations, you get to play a Kiki. Just win that way. You don't need to re-assemble the Snoop combo when you can just play a Kiki and win like Goblins always has with Kiki (copying Piledirvers, Matrons, etc).

This. Just win with the good card. (e.g. T2 Munitions Expert removing blocker. Lackey hits and drops Kiki. Kiki can now blow up their next play. Snoop who?)

Even if you build with Snoop combo, you don't always have to win with Snoop. Goblins has many roads to victory. Snoop combo just seems like a better version of the old Piledriver go-wide plan. It gives the deck a way to finish the game quickly once you're in a good position. It's explosive, doesn't need the combat step, and can T3 goldfish to race combo (hopefully improving the worst matchup). Another big advantage is the pieces have utility on their own (card advantage, tutor) instead of being Squire and Gray Ogre on empty boards.

[owerbart]

Can someone point out the reason why Stingscourger got cut off entirely? I get that more people are replacing him with cratermaker because it has better versatility, but Stingscourger is a tutorable way to cleanly answer a Marit Lage or a Griselbrand. Not saying that we should main deck it, but not having access to at least one in the 75 feels kinda weird.

[jrw1985]

Funny timing, since I just started running one again.
Stingscourger got cut because it was too slow against the decks you mentioned (Reanimator and Depths). Reanimator is just too fast for it. A resolved Griselbrand is going to draw 7-14 and win regardless of whether or not you're able to Stingscourger it. Depths is able to play around Stingscourger very easily, making Lage on end step. It's better to attack both decks from different angles rather than trying to answer their fatties.
The second reason Sting got cut was a relative lack of fair targets in the format. TNN, DNT, YP, Delver, none of these really care about Sting. If Sting is bouncing mediocre targets, or if it has no targets at all, its a very bad card.
Recently the meta has shifted back to a point where Sting looks good again. Uro is a big part of that, as Sting on Uro is a much better play than MunE on Uro. KotR has also become more popular it seems recently. This could be in part because the format has shifted more towards 3-drops, thanks to Uro and Oko. Stingscourger is excellent against KotR of course, gaining a ton of tempo.
The printing of Muxus also affects Sting's value. Sting has always held the distinction of being the only piece of Goblin-shaped removal that guarantees you will remove a blocker T2. Running a Sting at this point increases your chance of landing a T2 Muxus, winning the game early.

[FTW]

Snooop Underdawg - 17th place:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-07-26#grumsh_th_place

They played the full set of Snoops but only 2 Harbinger, to still have the combo but hedge against Harbinger being bad on its own.


//Goblins: 34
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Conspicuous Snoop
3 Munitions Expert
2 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
2 Boggart Harbinger
2 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Pashalik Mons
2 Goblin Ringleader
2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Muxus, Goblin Grandee

//Vials: 4
4 Aether Vial

//Lands: 23
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Rishadan Port

//SB: 15
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Eliminate
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast


Curve:
1 - 9
2 - 11
3 - 10
4 - 5
5 - 1
6 - 2


Notable changes over typical lists:
- down to 2 Ringleader, to make room at the top end for 2nd Sling-Gang + Kiki for the Snoop combo
- 2/2 split of Harbinger and Warchief instead of going all-in on Harbinger for the combo
- toolbox-y list with many 1-ofs for the 6 tutors
- only 4 ways to push through Lackey on turn 2, so this isn't too heavy on the Muxus plan
- 61 cards

I have to wonder if all the 3 drops, especially the 2nd Warchief or the Pashalik, are better than being 60 cards.

A few years back someone did an analysis of the win rates of different Goblins deck compositions and determined the optimal curve for non-Winstigator lists had 13 turn 2 plays (Prospector and Gempalm count). There's temptation to play a lot of 3s (e.g. Warchief + Chieftain), but too many 3s and not enough 2s affected the curve and tempo when Vial/Lackey is disrupted. If that's still true, I would be tempted to go
- 1 Warchief
+1 Stingscourger

[Von]

With essentially 6 tutors I would definitely go a more toolbox route and add in Stingscourger.

[Humphrey]

my current definitive list looks like this

https://i.imgur.com/VCdQqKG.png

https://i.imgur.com/mXM0Fvr.png

[Reeplcheep]

goblinlackey1 with an updated primer (https://www.patreon.com/posts/43849679)

[FTW]

I have been testing a nontraditional Aggro-Combo Muxus WInstigator Snoop list since Snoop was printed.


//Goblins: 37
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Conspicuous Snoop
4 Munitions Expert
3 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Boggart Harbinger
1 Pashalik Mons
2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Muxus, Goblin Grandee

//Artifacts: 0
0 Aether Vial

//Mana: 23
3 Chrome Mox
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

//Sideboard: 15
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Earwig Squad
2 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Mogg Fanatic


I made the controversial decision to cut Vial, with Vial leading to slower starts and being weaker in an meta where blue control is dominated by UG Oko instead of UW Miracles. Cutting Vial also solves the problem of WInstigator decks having bad topdecks/reveals with 12 accelerants. I also cut Port, which is much worse without Vial and doesn't support the more aggressive game plan. The last controversial decision is 0 maindeck Ringleader vs 5 maindeck cards in the 5-6cc slot! This is a more aggressive plan and Ringleader is more of a controlling tool that is very powerful but also much slower on tempo without Vial or Warchief.

Instead I just run 8 ways to push through turn 1 Lackey/WInstigator to maximize Muxus game 1. Between turn 2 Muxus and the Snoop combo, this deck has a very reasonable chance of goldfishing on turn 3 with Caverns protection, which gives it legs vs traditionally bad matchups in game 1. I have just raced combo decks in some games, either with Muxus or Snoop combo, and I've punished fair decks hard for not immediately answering every Lackey effect or not leaving enough chump blockers.

The Snoop combo has more natural synergy with the WInstigator plan than with the Vial/Lackey plan. Kiki-Jiki and tutors are better in WInstigator lists. Chrome Mox enables a turn 2 win (T1 Snoop T2 Harbinger). Chieftain makes the 1/1 and 1/2 tutor bodies less bad for fair beatdown. Snoop wants to be explosive, not play mana denial control. Unblocked Instigator can also let you combo out of nowhere in the combat step. (Example: In one game I cast precombat Snoop revealing Cratermaker and attacked with Chieftain and Instigator, after they had already expended many blockers trying to stop Instigator. They couldn't profitably block 2/2 Instigator through possible Snoop-Cratermaker activation, but they could kill Chieftain, so they blocked Chieftain instead. WInstigator's first strike trigger dropped Harbinger, which let me combo off at instant speed with the hasty Snoop before the Chieftain died!!)

Both Muxus and Snoop are very powerful with such a high Goblin count, almost 2/3 of cards. In theory Ringleader should be very strong here too, but I couldn't find space in the curve. 4-6cc is all too slow to hardcast most games without Vial or Warchief, and when you can cheat out a Goblin most of the time Muxus is just a better payoff. Some number of Ringleaders in the 75 is probably correct because the cards in hand are better vs board wipes, and hitting Ringleader off Muxus is dumb.

Because the creature curve is so low (20 at 2cmc or less), there is a legitimate plan of just running out Snoop and casting multiple Goblins off the top for card advantage. Because of that plan as well as the Snoop combo, Lackey+WInstigator+Snoop all become must-kills for spot removal because you can threaten to win out of nowhere.

I tested a 1-of Smoldering Spires as a 21st land but was not happy with the ETB tapped most of the time (e.g. it means you can't play a 2-drop on turn 2 even if it pushes Lackey through, while Expert/Sting puts another body on board, and when you don't need the effect it's terrible).

I am still tweaking a few slots:
-number of Chieftains
-number of Harbingers
-Trashmaster and Chainwhirler in main vs SB
-possible 1-of Mogg Fanatic main over the 2nd Sling-Gang (serves role as backup combo wincon while also acting as blocker removal)
-whether to have backup Ringleaders in the SB vs control

This has very explosive lines of play and many ways to interact, but needs more tweaks and testing across a wide range of decks.

[Von]

Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

[Whoshim]

Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

Please see this thread for info about that: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33280-Decks-to-Beat-(2020-edition)&p=1090004&viewfull=1#post1090004

[FTW]

Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

The 4x Muxus lists with Instigators are very explosive. I'm glad this tech is taking off.

Recent MTGO 5-0 with Turbo Muxus:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2021-02-20#bargahof_-

2nd place Legacy Challenge Feb 1st:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=29051&d=428900&f=LE

9th place Legacy Challenge Dec 28th:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=28701&d=426616&f=LE

1st place Discord tournament (25 players) Jan 2nd:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=28747&d=426914&f=LE

1st place Discord tournament (32 players) Jan 31st:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=28747&d=426914&f=LE

There haven't been many big events at all. Low sample size era.

[Stevestamopz]

Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

omega lol, sigged.

[jrw1985]

I've been a huge fan of using Hypergeometric calculators for deckbuilding, mostly as a tool for establishing likelihood of drawing lands and whatnot. I recently stumbled upon a Binomial Probability Calculator, which calculates the odds of success over a number of trials. I combined the two to calculate some odds of winning games in the long run. I have always found that opening hands with at least 3 lands gives me the most confidence in winning a game. If we assume a 3 land opening hand is a Winning hand then we can calculate the odds of consistently Winning in the long run. Using the Binomial Probablity calculator I ran the numbers for the likelihood of having Winning hands in 200 out of 300 games, which would just be having a record of winning 100 matches over 300 games. Now, this doesn't actually mean anything because the premise is so vague, but I thought it was an interesting exercise in looking at deckbuilding. What I found was pretty surprising. While adding 1+ land to the list had little effect on the likelihood of drawing 3+ lands each opening hand, the cumulative effect on consistently seeing those 3 lands over hundreds of games increased significantly with each land added. What I found , if we're assuming having 3+ lands in our opening hand is the benchmark for winning a game, then it takes running 27 lands in a 60 card deck to consistently see those results in the long run. What I'm wondering now is if anyone else has things they look for in opening hands that give them the most confidence in winning a game, and how we can build to maximize that likelihood.
Number of Lands in a 60 card deck Probability of 3+ lands in 7 (A Winning Hand) Probability of 200+ Winning Hands in 300 games
22 0.509838301 < 0.000001
23 0.549341464 0.0000231
24 0.587929496 0.003075374
25 0.625348194 0.077150495
26 0.661372406 0.449759624
27 0.695807315 0.876423503

[Whoshim]

I disagree with your conclusion about the results, unless I am misunderstanding things.

I used two different binomial calculators (https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx and http://statisticshelper.com/binomial-probability-calculator). Both calculators gave me slightly different numbers from yours. I have rounded the percentages in this post, but the numbers should be close enough for our purposes.

For example, with a 23 land deck, the probability is 23/60 =~ .3833333. The trials = 7. The successes = 3. The probability is 0.28510161444. Doing this for each number (1-7) yields:

0: 3.4%
1: 14.8%
2: 27.5%
3: 28.5%
4: 17.7%
5: 6.6%
6: 1.4%
7: 0.1%

For a 27 land deck (27/60 = .45 probability):

0: 1.5%
1: 8.7%
2: 21.4%
3: 29.2%
4: 23.9%
5: 11.7%
6: 3.2%
7: 0.4%

23 land deck probability of 2-4 land (73.7%) and 3-4 land (46.2%) in the opening hand.
27 land deck probability of 2-4 land (74.5%) and 3-4 land (53.1%) in the opening hand.

So far, this agrees with your analysis. The numbers make it seem like the 27 land deck is better. However, extending to look at the first 10 cards (going first + draws for the first 3 turns):

23 Land Deck
0: 0.8%
1: 4.9%
2: 13.8%
3: 22.9%
4: 24.9%
5: 18.6%
6: 9.6%
7: 3.4%
8: 0.8%
9: 0.1%
10: 0%

27 Land Deck
0: 0.3%
1: 2.1%
2: 7.6%
3: 16.6%
4: 23.8%
5: 23.4%
6: 16%
7: 7.5%
8: 2.3%
9: 0.4%
10: 0%

23 land deck probability of 3-5 land in the first 10 cards (66.4%).
27 land deck probability of 3-5 land in the first 10 cards (63.8%).

So a 23 land deck will have a “better” land situation in 2.6% more games. This depends a lot on what kinds of spells are in the deck, both in terms of things like cantrips and the average cmc.

When looking at the 3-4 land situation, it gets even better for the 23 land deck:

23 land deck probability of 3-4 land in the first 10 cards (47.8%).
27 land deck probability of 3-4 land in the first 10 cards (40.4%).

EDIT: None of this takes fetchlands into account. With fetchlands, it is likely that your numbers are better than mine. I will ask some others about the math regarding fetchlands.

[Reeplcheep]

Binomial calculators will give less accurate results than hypergeometric calculators, since binomial calculators assume sampling with replacement.

[FTW]

tl;dr - It's possible to optimize this with math, but it's also very easy to get the math wrong depending on assumptions and calculations used. In cases where the math contradicts common sense from real games, consider the possibility that the math is off.

With the two calculators, just have to be sure you're using the right calculator for the right thing. Playing 300 games is sampling with replacement. Each new game you replace the deck, shuffle, and draw from a fresh deck. Binomial makes sense to compare different games. For drawing a certain hand within one game, the cards are not replaced so it's sampling without replacement and a Hypergeometric calculator.

Hypergeometric Calculator - for chance of seeing a certain opening hand (e.g 3 lands in 7 cards)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_distribution

Binomial Calculator - for chance of seeing a certain outcome after many games (e.g. 200 of the target hand in 300 games)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution

@Whoshim: You're using a Binomial calculator where a Hypergeometric should be used.

@jrw: There's a major flaw in your analysis, not related to that.
Re-run using 59 lands in a 60-card deck. You'll get 100% probability of winning >290 of 300 games. What a winning deck!

Why does it do that? The problem is you've defined anything with 3+ lands as a winning hand. Including 7 lands, 6 lands, or 5 lands with 2 slow cards. Those are obvious mulligans, but the calculation counts everything with at least 3 lands and ignores the possibility of flooding. With a low land count those events are rare, maybe negligible, but as you increase the number of lands they become more common. As you add more lands, of course the chance of having more lands in your hand will go up, so your analysis will always point you towards the highest number of lands in your table. If you keep going past 27, it will tell you to add even more lands. The assumption that "3+lands = win" is too strong and makes the math do things like recommend a 60-land deck.

In a real game there's a tradeoff between not having enough mana and being flooded. 27 seems like too many.

[FTW]

I think the Hypergeometric probability you want is not for 3+ lands in 7 cards but for 3-4 lands in first 7 cards and no more than 5 lands in the first 11 cards (3 or 4 lands in the opening hand but you don't hit more than 5 lands after 4 draws - turn 5 on the play).

That represents seeing the 3-4 lands in your opening hand, but also not flooding over the critical first turns of the game when you need business and interaction. Unlike the condition of "3+ lands = win", this would have diminishing returns as you increase the land count too high. It would not give the unreasonably high win %s for land-heavy decks.


Lands 3-4 lands in hand 3-4 lands in hand AND no more than 5 total after 4 draws
18 32.7% 28.7%
19 36.1% 30.8%
20 39.4% 32.6%
21 42.5% 34.0%
22 45.4% 35.0%
23 48.1% 35.6%
24 50.5% 35.8%
25 52.6% 35.6%
26 54.4% 34.9%
27 55.8% 33.9%
28 56.8% 32.5%
29 57.4% 30.8%
30 57.6% 28.8%
31 57.4% 26.6%
32 56.8% 24.3%
33 55.8% 21.9%

*Hypergeometric probabilities only

If you just try to get 3-4 lands in your opening hand and don't care about flooding, you optimize it with 30 lands in the deck (57.6% of hands will have 3-4 lands). But that will lead to flooding during the game.

If you want to see 3-4 lands in the opening hand but then don't want to flood in the early turns, that's optimized around 24 lands (35.8%), with very close odds for 23 and 25 lands. That's the default land count for many Standard and Casual decks.

Goblins runs 22-23 lands. Should Goblins be running 24? You could test using a card like Mutavault, Ghost Quarter or Teetering Peaks as the 24th land and see how that performs. Goblins has other constraints though too. It needs a high enough Goblin count for Ringleaders, Muxus and Lackey to do their job, which means there is a penalty for having too many lands. Meanwhile the land odds don't increase that much between 22-24 lands.

Accelerants also help cheat on mana costs. Would anyone ship a 2-land hand with Lackey or Vial?? Most 2-land hands are keepable. So what if we expand it to include 2 land hands where you hit your 3rd land in time but don't flood past 5 lands?


Lands 2-4 lands in hand AND 3 lands by 2nd draw AND no more than 5 lands after 4 draws
18 42.0%
19 45.0%
20 47.5%
21 49.4%
22 50.6%
23 51.3%
24 51.3%
25 50.7%
26 49.5%
27 47.8%
28 45.5%
29 42.9%
30 39.9%


This one optimizes around 23-24 lands (51.3% of games). Because of the need for high Goblin count, 23 seems better than 24. And that's what Vial Goblins has already been running for ages.

I would argue that extensive playtesting and tournament results provide better data than a simulation with simplifying assumptions, especially for an interactive aggro-control deck. I think these calculators are most useful when optimizing fast combo decks. Those games are closer to goldfishing and more dependent on opening hand, while an interactive deck like Goblins depends on a lot of factors.

[NewSchoolBoxer]

Long time lurker, first time poster since I haven't played competitively in over a decade. Finally can contribute with statistics. I give jrw1985 credit for bringing up deck odds and FTW provided needed corrections. Can take this further with fetch lands and the draw after London mulligan(s) but the math gets complex enough that simulating makes more sense. As in, writing a computer program that shuffles and draws from deck. Is beginner-level coding. I still like the pure math approach to start and validate any code results with upper and lower bounds.

Hypergeometric limitations are naturally only 2 classes of cards, the success (land) and failure (non-land) and simple 1 draw = 1 card removal. You can actually work out the math without such a distribution. Let me show where the 24 land values come from with spreadsheet formulas. The 0 or 1 at the end denotes being cumulative that your spreadsheet may need as false or true, respectively. For instance, cumulative of (x=3) means sum of the probabilities of 0, 1, 2 and 3 successes:

24 lands: 3-4 in hand (50.5%)
=HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) + HYPGEOM.DIST(4, 7, 24, 60, 0) = 0.505152419330032 (exact)

24 lands: 3-4 lands in hand AND no more than 5 total after 4 draws (35.8%)
=(HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(2, 4, 21, 53, 1)) +
(HYPGEOM.DIST(4, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(1, 4, 20, 53, 1)) = 0.358184438166005 (exact)

Really good work by FTW here. Took me a few tries to setup correctly.

-----------------------------------------------

Warning: Math Intensive below

The "long way" for HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) for instance is:

=COMBIN(7, 3)*(24/60)*(23/59)*(22/58)*(36/57)*(35/56)*(34/55)*(33/54) = 0.308704256 (exact)

Here you take COBIN(7, 3), the number of possibilities of arranging 3 successes in a group of 7 and multiply by the probability of it occurring once. I think easier to understand since odds of first draw being a land are obviously (24/60) and you see next draw is from pool of 23 lands and 59 cards. Can work in fetch lands and mulligans with this approach and enough chaining. You could find poker hand odds worked out online strictly with COMBINs and smart counting.

This is the most difficult for me to setup correctly even though it's the simplest in theory. The "poker math way" is:
=(COMBIN(24, 3)*COMBIN(36, 4))/COMBIN(60, 7) = 119223720 / 386206920 = 0.308704256 (exact)

Where (60, 7) denominator is the total count of starting hands that can exist and the numerator is the total count of 3 successes in a hand of 7 with 24 lands and 36 non-lands. In other words, (total hands we want) / (total hands possible).

[FTW]

24 lands: 3-4 lands in hand AND no more than 5 total after 4 draws (35.8%)
=(HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(2, 4, 21, 53, 1)) +
(HYPGEOM.DIST(4, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(1, 4, 20, 53, 1)) = 0.358184438166005 (exact)

Really good work by FTW here. Took me a few tries to setup correctly.


Thanks for joining The Source, adding to the discussion, and showing the calculations.

I probably should have explained how I got those numbers. I worked through cases and conditional probabilities. I started to type out the equations, but they got long and ugly so I left it out. I figured those who knew enough math would know what I meant and others wouldn't want to see the formulas anyway. It's much easier to do in Excel or in code than on the Hypergeometric calculator. I just programmed a spreadsheet to generate those tables for me.

The easiest way to conceptualize the math is like a tree splitting into multiple branches. You multiply the probabilities on each branch and then add the branches together. Each branch represents a different case for how you could draw your lands.

#1> 2 lands in 7-card hand ---- 1 land in next 2 cards ---- 0-2 lands in next 2 cards
#2> 2 lands in 7-card hand ---- 2 lands in next 2 cards ---- 0-1 land in next 2 cards
#3> 3 lands in 7-card hand ---- 0-2 lands in next 4 cards
#4> 4 lands in 7-card hand ---- 0-1 land in next 4 cards

The first 2 branches are the extra cases I added to include 2-land hands that hit at least 3 lands.
The 3rd and 4th branch are what you calculated above.

#3: HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(2, 4, 21, 53, 1)
#4: HYPGEOM.DIST(4, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(1, 4, 20, 53, 1)

The big thing to remember is to adjust the 2nd (and 3rd) Hypergeometric function to account for the fact that you've already drawn some cards and lands, so the numbers left in the deck are smaller. 53 cards left in the deck. 20 or 21 lands in this case.

If you don't care about flooding, only the opening hand, you can leave out the 2nd part. I think the flooding is an important part to include because it's the main drawback of having too many lands in the deck.

[FTW]

You can use the same logic to work out the probabilities for fetchlands.

It's just messier. It leads to a lot more branches and cases. In the end, it's easier to solve it with code, either to iterate the different cases for Hypergeometric calculations or to simulate random draws from a deck.

This is a "simpler" example.
3 lands in opening 7-card hand, on the play.
No more than 4 lands by turn 4
Deck has 24 lands: 6 fetches, 18 other lands
Assume you use fetchlands as early as possible

A> 3 lands in 7-card hand ---- 0/3 lands are fetches ---- 0 lands in next 3 draws
B> 3 lands in 7-card hand ---- 0/3 lands are fetches ---- 1st draw is a fetch ---- 0 lands in next 2 cards
C> 3 lands in 7-card hand ---- 0/3 lands are fetches ---- 1st draw nonland ---- 2nd land fetch ---- 3rd draw nonland
D> 3 lands in 7-card hand ---- 0/3 lands are fetches ---- 1st draw nonland ---- 2nd draw nonland ---- 3rd draw fetch
E> 3 lands in 7-card hand ---- 0/3 lands are fetches ---- 1 land in next 3 draws, not a fetchland
F> 3 lands in 7-card hand ---- 1/3 lands are fetches ---- 0 lands in next 3 draws
G> 3 lands in 7-card hand ---- 1/3 lands are fetches ---- 1st draw is a fetch ---- 0 lands in next 2 cards
H> 3 lands in 7-card hand ---- 1/3 lands are fetches ---- 1st draw nonland ---- 2nd land fetch ---- 3rd draw nonland
...
and it keeps going

Each case of drawing fetchlands is handled separately because the thinning affects odds for other draws. They're conditional on whether a fetch was drawn and used.


A> HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(0, 3, 6, 24, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(0, 3, 21, 53, 0)

What does all that mean?
The first one is drawing exactly 3 lands in a 7-card hand, with 24 lands in a 60-card deck.
The second is 0 of those 3 lands being fetchlands, with 6 fetches among 24 lands.
The next is drawing 0 lands in 3 cards, with 21 total lands remaining out of 53 cards left


B>HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(0, 3, 6, 24, 0) * 6/53 * HYPGEOM.DIST(0, 2, 19, 51, 0)

The first 2 parts are the same.
Then your first draw is 6/53 to draw one of 6 fetchlands in the remaining 53 cards.
Assuming you crack that fetch, you take a land out of the deck, so there are only 19 lands and 51 cards left (instead of 20 lands andf 52 cards).
The last part is drawing 0 lands in 2 draws, with 19 lands in the remaining 51 cards.


C> HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(0, 3, 6, 24, 0) * 32/53 * 6/52 * 31/50

The first 2 parts are the same.
32/53 chance to draw one of the remaining 32 nonland cards in the remaining 53 cards (36 nonlands total - 4 in opening hand)
6/52 chance to draw a fetch next, with 6 in the remaining 52 cards
If you crack that fetch, you take a land out of the deck, so there will be 19 lands and 50 cards left
31/50 chance to draw one of 31 nonland cards in the remaining 50 cards


D> HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(0, 3, 6, 24, 0) * 32/53 * 31/52 * 6/51

The first 2 parts are the same.
32/53 chance to draw one of the remaining 32 nonland cards in the remaining 53 cards
31/52 chance to draw a nonland again, with 31 nonlands left in 52 cards
6/51 chance to draw one of 6 fetches in the remaining 51 cards


E> HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(0, 3, 6, 24, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(1, 3, 21, 53, 0) * 15/21

The first 2 parts are the same.
The next is drawing 1 land in 3 draws, with 21 lands left among 53 cards
15/21 chance that land is not a fetch, with 15 regular lands left among 21 lands


F> HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(1, 3, 6, 24, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(0, 3, 20, 52, 0)

The first part is the same.
The second part is now 1 of those 3 lands being a fetch, with 6 fetches in the 24 lands.
On turn 1 you crack that fetch, taking a land out of the deck.
The last part is drawing 0 lands in the next 3 draws, with 20 lands remaining in the thinned 52 card deck


G> HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(1, 3, 6, 24, 0) * 5/52 * HYPGEOM.DIST(0, 2, 19, 50, 0)

Again on turn 1 you use a fetch and thin a land.
On turn 2, 5/52 chance of drawing one of the other 5 fetches in the thinned deck of 52 cards
Then you crack that and thin another land out of the deck.
The last part is drawing 0 lands in 2 draws, with 18 lands left in a 50-card deck after the thinning.


H> HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) * HYPGEOM.DIST(1, 3, 6, 24, 0) * 32/52 * 5/51 * 31/49

32/52 chance of drawing one of 32 nonland cards in the thinned deck of 52 cards
5/51 chance to draw one of the other 5 fetches in the remaining 51 cards
Then you crack that and thin the deck of another land
31/49 chance to draw one of 31 nonland cards left in the remaining 49 cards



It's possible to work through all the math for fetchlands thinning the deck, but messy. You'd have to calculate each branch, and all the branches I didn't even include, and add them all up. There are so many separate cases because it matters what turn the fetchland is drawn and cracked, because it affects the remaining cards in the deck. Mulligans or being on the draw add even more to consider.

The calculation gets crazy. It's easier to do with code.

[NewSchoolBoxer]

Thank you! Happy to be here. Only one person needs to work through the math for everyone to benefit. I guess I wanted to show the details for someone who may adjust for running 22 or 24 lands and validate your work at the same time.



It's possible to work through all the math for fetchlands thinning the deck, but messy. You'd have to calculate each branch, and all the branches I didn't even include, and add them all up. There are so many separate cases because it matters what turn the fetchland is drawn and cracked, because it affects the remaining cards in the deck. Mulligans or being on the draw add even more to consider.

The calculation gets crazy. It's easier to do with code.

For real, working out the calculation is so much effort, I wouldn't be confident that the result is right. Better to show easily understood calculations (for people good at stats) for the lowerbound odds since fetches should slightly reduce odds of mana flooding.

So you do still crunch through fetchlands with hypergeometric. Impressive work again. We need not be concerned for the case of less fetchable lands than fetches that pull them in all the decklists I see but there is the edge case of all colorless lands that forces a mulligan. Tracking that I think makes using straight combinatorics ("poker way") easier than further modifying hypergeometric. I started a probability matrix this way with 1-4 count Lackey rows and 1-5 count land columns that gives odds of Turn 1 Lackey Go. Sum boxes of probabilities for keepable hands. Also for turn 1 Winstigator with Chrome Mox. Manageable but just barely due to cases such as 3x Winstigator 2x Mox not needing a land.

Also started coding where I'd need to calculate hypergeometric odds so I finally looked up the formula. Really is a (COMBIN*COMBIN)/COMBIN chain and can mathematically convert between hypergeometric and its COMBIN chain without thinking how to logically setup as I did.

Bringing back odds of exactly 3 lands in starting hand with 24 lands in 60 card deck:
=HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 7, 24, 60, 0) = 0.308704256 (exact)

In actual mathematical notation, the first four numbers are (usually) named from left to right k, n, K, N:

k is how many lands we want to draw (observed successes)
n is the total cards drawn (total observations)
K is the number of lands in the deck (successes in population)
N is the deck size (population size)

Actually switching the 2nd and 3rd numbers n and K in the distribution gives the same answer for all hypergeometric inputs. With COMBIN work:
=COMBIN(24, 3)*COMBIN(36, 4)/COMBIN(60, 7) is equivalent to =COMBIN(7, 3)*COMBIN(53, 21)/COMBIN(60, 24)

More useful to us is the hypergeometric mean being n * K / N and variance is ( n * K ) * ( N - K ) * (N - n ) / [ N^2 * ( N - 1 ) ]
Variance at sufficiently high N approaches 1/N. If you thought that hypergeometric at N approaching infinity (no replacement) becomes the binomial distribution, you'd be correct.

I saw in the Legacy Goblins Discord pinned messages a chart for expected number (EV) of goblins pulled with Goblin Ringleader based number of goblins in 61 card deck. Let's upgrade this. Is easy to do with hypergeometric. For instance, odds of exactly 3 goblins from 25 goblins remaining in a 50 card deck is =HYPGEOM.DIST(3, 4, 25, 50, 0) = ~0.25 or 25%. Multiply that by 3 goblins for the weighted average. Sum the weighted averages for k=1, 2, 3 and 4 goblins for the expected goblin count.

But really can just go n * K / N = 4 * (goblin cards left in deck) / (total cards left in deck) and solve even more easily, unless you must see odds for 0, 1, 2, 3 and 4 goblins separately. Ringleader EV for 30% goblins is 1.2, down from 1.6 at 40% and 2.0 at 50%. Use 6 for Muxus but reduce count from Tarfire and Warren Weirding. You then have the n, K and N you need to solve variance and square root of variance is standard deviation.

Basically, smaller deck size reduces the variance (randomness or luck factor) which is one reason why more than 60 cards is bad. A deck 50/50 in goblins maximizes variance of drawing them.
Our [Matron / Boggart] searching reduces that goblins to deck ratio, as does [Ringleader or Muxus] + shuffle effect. Fetching a land increases it. I don't want to use all that to say what goblin count is optimal. I agree with FTW in not mathmagically saying what to do without factoring the gameplay itself, but perhaps you could justify as few as 30.

[FTW]

Going down to 30 seems bad, especially now with Muxus, Goblin Grandee.

Although the EV doesn't seem to change much, the probabilities of having very good or very bad flips changes a lot.

This is a table of Hypergeometric probabilities for Turn 2 Muxus off Lackey or Instigator.
60 card deck.
Fetchlands ignored.
Muxus + 2 non-goblin cards + 2 Goblin cards are known to be out of the deck.
That could be Lackey + 2 lands + removal or WInstigator + land + Mox/SSG + removal/imprinted card. Other unused cards in hand don't affect the odds, as they could be interchangeable with cards in the deck.


# Goblins in Deck EV P(4-6 goblins) P(0-2 goblins)
20 1.9 7% 74%
22 2.1 10% 66%
24 2.3 14% 58%
26 2.5 19% 50%
28 2.7 25% 43%
29 2.8 28% 39%
30 2.9 32% 35%
31 3.1 35% 32%
32 3.2 39% 28%
33 3.3 43% 25%
34 3.4 47% 22%
35 3.5 50% 19%
36 3.6 54% 17%


For math-checkers, example with 30 goblins: P(0-2 goblins flipped) = HYPGEOM.DIST(2, 6, 30-3, 60-5, 1) = 35%

Between 30 and 35 goblins in the deck, the EV only changes from 2.9 to 3.5. Just 1/2 a card. What's the big deal?
Well with 30 goblins there's a higher chance of a dud flip of 0-2 goblins than a flip of 4-6 goblins (35% vs 32%)! Muxus will disappoint more often than it will be busted. With 35 goblins there's less than a 1/5 chance of a dud flip, while 1/2 will be stronk (19% vs 50%).

The best Turbo Muxus lists even cut Vial for more acceleration and a higher Goblin count.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

So the new Hirach is actually a Goblin.

But we already have lakey and vial. Do we want to play 12 one drops? It kinda plays well with lakey (exalted).

Probably best a 3 3 3 split for Hirach, Vial and Lakey. It should feel allright to see a mix of these cards at the start.

[kombatkiwi]

So the new Hirach is actually a Goblin.

But we already have lakey and vial. Do we want to play 12 one drops? It kinda plays well with lakey (exalted).

Probably best a 3 3 3 split for Hirach, Vial and Lakey. It should feel allright to see a mix of these cards at the start.

I think an important issue to consider is that the deck wants to be RB for sling gang and munitions expert and incorporating those while also having a manabase that can make G on turn 1 is a bit of a hard ask

Maybe with more of an unclaimed territory manabase it could work but obviously this has other downsides

[FTW]

WOTC misclicked creature type on Hierarch.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2021-06-19#grumsh_-

5-0 list with 12x 1 drops for more explosive starts


//Goblins: 27
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Ignoble Hierarch
3 Munitions Expert
2 Fissure Wizard
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Goblin Matron
2 Pashalik Mons
1 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Ringleader
2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
3 Muxus, Goblin Grandee

//NonGoblins: 10
4 Aether Vial
3 Reanimate
3 Fury

//Lands: 23
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Karakas

//Sideboard: 15
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus


New tech is evoking Fury and Reanimating it. Or discarding Muxus to hand size/Fissure Wizard and Reanimating it. Fury should be very good at helping Lackey connect too.

[FTW]

Congrats! Nice result playing a more traditional list (with green splash for Masked Vandal).

2nd place Legacy Challenge: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-showcase-challenge-2021-08-09#caedyrn_nd_place

[Von]

WOTC misclicked creature type on Hierarch.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2021-06-19#grumsh_-

5-0 list with 12x 1 drops for more explosive starts


//Goblins: 27
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Ignoble Hierarch
3 Munitions Expert
2 Fissure Wizard
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Goblin Matron
2 Pashalik Mons
1 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Ringleader
2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
3 Muxus, Goblin Grandee

//NonGoblins: 10
4 Aether Vial
3 Reanimate
3 Fury

//Lands: 23
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Karakas

//Sideboard: 15
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus


New tech is evoking Fury and Reanimating it. Or discarding Muxus to hand size/Fissure Wizard and Reanimating it. Fury should be very good at helping Lackey connect too.

I like moving away from Ringleaders tbh. It opens up a lot more options to make the deck more competitive. The slow grindy plan the deck had earlier I feel is getting left behind as more powerful cards for other decks are being constantly being printed.

[Goblin Massage Parlor]

Where have all the warchiefs gone? So many great legacy playable goblins these days, curious why it's so quiet here? I've been away from magic for a few years, has everyone migrated to another forum or something or is it really just considered obsolete?

[Whoshim]

Where have all the warchiefs gone? So many great legacy playable goblins these days, curious why it's so quiet here? I've been away from magic for a few years, has everyone migrated to another forum or something or is it really just considered obsolete?

A lot of deck discussions happen on Discord nowadays, unfortunately. It is nice for quick chats, but it doesn't leave a trail like a forum does. I do not know what the Goblin Discord channel is, but I am sure there is one.

[Airwave]

Where have all the warchiefs gone? So many great legacy playable goblins these days, curious why it's so quiet here? I've been away from magic for a few years, has everyone migrated to another forum or something or is it really just considered obsolete?

Goblins aren't doing very good I think? No top 8 in major events last 4 months.. :eyebrow:

https://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE&meta=188&a=

[Humphrey]

Where have all the warchiefs gone? So many great legacy playable goblins these days, curious why it's so quiet here? I've been away from magic for a few years, has everyone migrated to another forum or something or is it really just considered obsolete?

this is my latest vial goblins list. I havent played an event in ages tho:


2 Taiga
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Den of the Bugbear

4 Aether Vial
4 Ignoble Hierarch
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Matron
3 Skirk Prospector
1 Legion Loyalist
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Ringleader
3 Munitions Expert
2 Muxus, Goblin Grandee
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Krenko, Mob Boss








Goblins aren't doing very good I think? No top 8 in major events last 4 months.. :eyebrow:

https://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE&meta=188&a=

at least 2 gobs in top16 at NA Champs

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I know this is the thread for Vial Goblins, but the best decklists these days no longer play either Aether Vial or Goblin Lackey, so I will post a Turbo Muxus decklist that I am trying out.

38 creatures (34 goblins, so 30 Muxus' targets):
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Matron
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Muxus, Goblin Grandee
4 _____ Goblin
4 Battle Cry Goblin
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Broadside Bombardiers

4 Chrome Mox

14 lands (+4 Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass):
1 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Shatterskull Smashing

Sideboard:
1 Unlicensed Hearse
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Goblin Trashmaster
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Stingscourger
2 Blood Moon
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyrokinesis

Sticker deck:
1 Misunderstood Trapeze Elf
1 Ancestral Hot Dog Minotaur
1 Eldrazi Guacamole Tightrope
1 Narrow-Minded Baloney Fireworks
1 Phyrexian Midway Bamboozle
1 Playable Delusionary Hydra
1 Unassuming Gelatinous Serpent
1 Unglued Pea-Brained Dinosaur
1 Unsanctioned Ancient Juggler
1 Unhinged Beast Hunt


The idea behind it is to maximize Muxus' ability, so 50% of the deck, at least in g1, is a goblin that can enter through it. I also play 4 Shatterskull Smashing because I may not want to imprint a goblin for Chrome Mox.
There are 8 Sol lands to maximize the odds of casting _____ Goblin on turn 1, so before the opponent could play a common spot removal. Sol lands are 8 also because they help to cast some hate cards during the first turn in g2.
A lot of decklists (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=50213&d=571566&f=LE) these days play 20 lands, including only 2 Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass, but they play 2 less goblins and 3 City of Traitors instead of 4. I prefer a more straightfoward decklist for the reasons expressed so far. Any opinion?

[FTW]

So you can turn 1 cast Muxus off Tomb/City + Mox/SSG + Sticker Goblin + Muxus?

How consistently does Turbo Muxus happen? You have redundancy for the mana (8 copies of each), but still need the other 2 pieces in hand too. Does this happen often?

What was the reason to change to this plan over cheating Muxus with Lackey/WInstigator?

[ESG]

The deck doesn't need Muxus to have big turns. I played against someone a couple weeks ago who went (on the draw): City of Traitors, Chrome Mox (imprinting red), Sticker Goblin (makes six red mana), Goblin Warchief, Goblin Rabblemaster, and Battle Cry Goblin, attack for 14. The deck basically gets to play the Moon Stompy approach with Turn 1 bombs like Goblin Rabblemaster, Blood Moon, or Broadside Bombardiers, but it also can play like combo with Sticker Goblin starts.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

So you can turn 1 cast Muxus off Tomb/City + Mox/SSG + Sticker Goblin + Muxus?
How consistently does Turbo Muxus happen? You have redundancy for the mana (8 copies of each), but still need the other 2 pieces in hand too. Does this happen often?
You need the Playable Delusionary Hydra sticker to get 6 mana. Unfortunately, you can only have 1 copy of it in your 10-cards sticker deck. You start each game with 3 random stickers, so you should have a 30% chance to get the 6 mana sticker. There are 2 stickers that give you 5 mana, 1 sticker that gives you 3 mana and the other 6 give you 4 mana.


The deck doesn't need Muxus to have big turns. I played against someone a couple weeks ago who went (on the draw): City of Traitors, Chrome Mox (imprinting red), Sticker Goblin (makes six red mana), Goblin Warchief, Goblin Rabblemaster, and Battle Cry Goblin, attack for 14.
Exactly. You don't need Muxus to have a strong turn 1, but since _____ Goblin doesn't give you mana if it's killed with the ability on the stack, I prefer to maximize the odds of casting it in the first turn.

[NewSchoolBoxer]

This site's uptime is spotty and I learned to save my post in notepad to not lose it when I get auto-logged out. I looked up what I missed the past few years. Broadside Bombardiers is the best new printing in years but its strength is diluted by showing up in non-goblin decks. Masked Vandal cosplayer has value. Other new 1 drops and lords are fine but not reaching the new height of Bombardiers. I like the Conspicuous Snoop + Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + sac outlet combo discussed by FTW on page 94 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31114-Deck-Vial-Goblins/page94). I'll loop back to combos. Sticker Goblin had its reign of non-terror until the ban hammer struck in May 2024.

Delney

I had fun testing 2W legendary Delney, Streetwise Lookout with other new cards. I think fringe viable but no recent progress being made here. FTW's deck on the last page in 2021 fit in 3x Fury and 3x Reanimate. We got space to experiment. Can see talk of cutting Vial for Turbo Muxus, Goblin Grandee that once would have been blasphemous.

Running Delney has shock value and can be Vialed on 3 with the opponent expecting something else. Can't double Muxus to insta-win thanks to its 4 attack but 2x Matron, Ringleader, Lackey, Munitions, Settler, Piledriver or Grenzo, Havoc Raiser triggers pays for itself. Pashalik Mons gets a 2 for 1 with 2 pings for each graveyard trigger. The unblockable secondary ability can't protect Piledriver that procs before blockers are declared. Delney interaction on declaring attackers is not obvious. I think a good example to walk through is a Piledrive and (non-meta) General Kreat, the Boltbringer played the turn before:

Cast Delney. Kreat deals 1 damage from Delney entering that Delney copies again for 2 damage. I checked with Shocking Sharpshooter on MTGA dealing 2 when Delney enters.
Declare Piledriver and Kreat as attackers and stack Piledriver's trigger and its copy followed by Kreat's attacking trigger and its copy and start popping:
Two 1/1's enter, each triggering Kreat's 1 damage trigger that Delney copies for 4 on top of the stack. Pop the stack for 4 damage (6 total).
Piledriver sees three other attacking goblins so each trigger grants +6/0 for a 13/2. Attack for 13 + 1 + 1 + 2 = 17 damage (23 total).

What is not copied by Delney is activated abilities such as Skirk Prospector or Pashalik's token generator that uses a colon or require tapping. Sling-Gang Lieutenant gets four 1/1's instead of two but each token sacrifices for 1 damage, one time if Pashalik isn't hanging around. Another card less viable but can also jump out of Vial to shock a win is Torbran, Thane of Red Fell.

Top 8 Goblin Combos

You're sideboarding against an unfavorable matchup, can you morph into a combo deck and play the Uno Reverse card of Trix (https://mtgtop8.com/event.php?e=9228&d=252936&f=EX) dropping combo for Phyrexian Negator? Or can combo justify slots in the main? I thought of Aluren + Squee, the Immortal + Lieutenant but that's 2 cards outside of a normal build. Wait a minute, this is the future. (https://clip.cafe/demolition-man-1993/this-the-future/) Can't I search card combos on the internet? Enter EDHREC. The links even tell you how to play the combo. There was also a post on a site I never heard of asking about goblin combos that got a whole spreadsheet response (https://www.mtgnexus.com/viewtopic.php?t=29728) in under 90 minutes. My rankings:

Goblin Sharpshooter and 2RR Splinter Twin (https://edhrec.com/combos/mono-red/1228-4702)
Kiki-Jiki does not work. You need an initial X/1 target to get 2x tokens into play for infinite damage, which is not hard when Goblin Sharpshooter has zero qualms with friendly fire. Else have Pashalik in play. Limited by summoning sickness but all red, 2 cards, only 1 out of the ordinary and Splinter Twin is bad but not dead without Sharpshooter. Basilisk Collar and Gorgon's Head are old news when Platinum Angel isn't meta.
Squee, the Immortal + 2G Food Chain (https://edhrec.com/combos/gruul/3519-3705)
2 card combo for infinite mana of all colors but like #6 not a kill in and of itself. Maindeck material, Food Chain removes need for Prospector and realistically you're not allotting more non-goblins slots to Vial. Can exile free Fury to cast free Muxus and dig up a wincon or Bombardiers to toss Muxus for 8. Food Chain stands on its own without Squee. Crucible of Words tuber (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI6gY2rSCgU) ran this and #4 in the same deck and struggled. Found Snoop combo to be win-more and Harbinger low value without it. Just running Food Chain combo next time. Green splash invites Ignoble Hierarch.
Infinite red mana use: Pashalik kills with infinite tokens + sacs. Battle Cry Goblin creates an attacking token and grants every goblin haste and infinite power.
Lightning Crafter + Kiki-Jiki + 1 of Skirk/Lieutenant/Pashalik (https://edhrec.com/combos/mono-red/38-618-3580)
Lightning Crafter is a bad card as stated in the primer but everyone is a goblin for searchability and synergy. No need to wait out Crafter's summoning sickness. Play after Kiki-Jiki and champion it, who copies Crafter in response to make the copy with haste. Token copy bolts opponent and gets sac'd by Skirk/Lieutenant to return Kiki-Jiki untapped. Can instead play Crafter first but need a champion target other than Kiki-Jiki or the sac outlet that the link's plan assumes. Pashalik play is different, instead Crafter bolts itself. Crafter notable as a 4 cost 3/3 that dodges common removal. Crafter can combo (https://edhrec.com/combos/mono-red/2506-3580) by entering with just 2RR Molten Echoes in play but goblin synergy is lost and two bad cards in the 60 versus one.
Conspicuous Snoop + Harbinger and Lieutenant/Mogg Fanatic in-deck as covered (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31114-Deck-Vial-Goblins/page94)
Downside of needing otherwise bad Boggart Harbinger for consistency, Kiki-Jiki cannot be drawn, Snoop's ability does not copy haste and Snoop builds aren't standard. If all copies of Lieutenant/Mogg Fanatic are drawn, one needs to be in play. Upside is only casting 2 cheap goblins to lock in the instant speed win. Could store Harbinger in the sideboard.
Kiki-Jiki + (2) Thornbite Staff + Lieutenant (https://edhrec.com/combos/mono-red/618-821-2178) or Mogg Fanatic or Sharpshooter
Kiki-Jiki is a Shaman to dodge the (4) equip cost, how lucky! Can sub in 3 cost Mogg Mob or 4 cost Mogg Bombers if Vial is likely to summon Kiki-Jiki anyway but I wouldn't. 2U Faces of the Past and Intruder Alarm are clearly worse on the casting cost front but have less hate as enchantments. Sharpshooter's combo (https://edhrec.com/combos/mono-red/618-1228-2178) is weaker since it can't have summoning sickness. Tap Kiki-Jiki to create another Sharpshooter, have one target the opponent and one kill the other or itself to start the loop. Prospector as a sac outlet gives infinite mana that could get you there with Pashalik or Battle Cry Goblin as seen in #2.
Krenko, Mob Boss + (1) Staff of Domination + Skirk Prospector (https://edhrec.com/combos/mono-red/38-659-2645)
Krenko cannot have summoning sickness. Generating infinite red mana to draw your deck, gain infinite life and create endless 1/1's is easy enough but you don't win at just with this staff. Have to stop the combo and play Lieutenant, Pashalik or Battle Cry/haste lord to swing with the token army if none are watching Krenko make magic. Staff of Domination isn't fooling anyone like Thornbite could from an opponent thinking you're playing jank and letting it resolve. Advantage over other combos is drawing your outs if the opponent cannot be damaged.
Krenko, Mob Boss + (2) Thornbite Staff + Skirk Prospector (https://edhrec.com/combos/mono-red/38-659-2178)
Like #5 but worse since Krenko cannot have summoning sickness and you have to pay the (4) equip cost. Better for working with Prospector. Activate Krenko for a few 1/1's, sac 1 for R, untap, loop for infinite tokens for infinite red mana. Then circle back to infinite (2) tap to deal 1 damage. Staff activations with Prospector sacs keep untapping. Wins at instant speed versus added risk for #6 but takes 5 additional mana to start. 2U Faces of the Past or Intruder Alarm can replace Staff to generate infinite 1/1's without a sac outlet but no instant speed win unless Lieutenant is present.
Grumgully, the Generous + Murderous Redcap + Skirk/Lieutenant/Pashalik sac outlet
Like #3, an all-goblin instant speed win that's immune to summoning sickness. Improves it using 3 and 4 cost goblins. Downside is two bad cards taking up deck slots versus one. With Pashalik, Redcap targets itself.
I think the first three are feasible taking up maindeck slots. #4 could luck into Kiki-Jiki on top for infinite Snoops from fetchland or Matron shuffling or the draw after Snoop enters, without playing to combo. New printings could push Snoop to the mainstream. Honorable Mention: Warren Soultrader + Gravecrawler + Zulaport Cutthroat/Blood Artist/Marionette Apprentice (https://edhrec.com/combos/mono-black/1385-2577-5670)
You'd be correct for thinking a three card combo with only one goblin wouldn't make the cut. The catch is Warren Soultrader and Gravecrawler can be put in a whole Deadguy Ale deck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgK_kiaVaFM) of abusable etb effects. Voice of Victory protects every combo piece and Gravecrawler already dodges counters that don't exile. More like a zombie combo when Soultrader is both.