SCG Tour Changes - Legacy Support Cut Even Further

[Undomian]

In their latest series of moves, it seems like SCG has cut legacy support back even further to only two Opens per year, and only two classics per season. I'm not sure they could have given us more of a giant middle finger without cutting the format entirely.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33951

[ironclad8690]

Lol, of course they would take away the small glimmer of happiness where I could at least see top 8 decklists each sunday of something legacy.

I guess even that was too much to ask, let alone watching or even playing legacy on sundays.

Fuck these guys.

[Skyl3lazer]

Hoping another group steps up to fill that gap :(

[Zooligan]

It's WotC's fault. They have failed to take steps to address the Reserve List conundrum, and they seem to have serious bias against some styles of play that are a big draw to the Legacy format (combo and big spells).

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Show of hands of who did not see this coming.

[Dice_Box]

Yea. Called this on The Salt Mine.

[Zombie]

Show of hands of who did not see this coming.

I mean, the format's ultimately doomed. The question isn't if we're going the way of Vintage, but when, on what timeframe. So on that level none of this should surprise. Also figures that cutting support would start a downward trend, it's harder to keep people excited if they can't tune in or attend often.

[Sidneyious]

I saw it coming when they announced modern will replace the dead extended as the fixed eternal format.

[Blastoderm]

I saw it coming when they announced modern will replace the dead extended as the fixed eternal format.

WOTC even failed with that format, go figure.

The failure of this game will be due to WOTC catering to standard players and playstyles associated with that format (grey orgres vs grizzly bears herp derp). Having an eternal format where summer bloom, green sun's zenith and splinter twin are banned is a fucking joke.

[Sidneyious]

^werd

[DarthVicious]

Sadly I'm on my phone, otherwise I'd meme Sigourney Weaver in Avatar when she says "See? They're pissing on us without even the courtesy of calling it rain."

[NeckBird]

This is entirely on WOTC. SCG and other large vendors wanted Wizards to get rid of the RL years ago, but instead Wizards doubled down on it.

I really cannot blame SCG here. Modern is more popular than Legacy because it's cheaper, not because it's better and Wizards has way more competitive events for Modern than Legacy. Anybody with a brain knows that if Legacy were just as inexpensive as Modern and received as much support as Modern did, Modern would be as unpopular as old Extended. SCG has to sell what their customers demand and that's what they're doing. Remember, Peter Hoefling said they were considering DROPPING the SCG Tour altogether. Legacy, and MTG for that matter in general, has always been too expensive for it's own damn good. A lot of people might only be able to afford one blue Legacy deck, but that means being able to afford maybe three or four Modern decks. Then, it becomes easier to build other decks cause you have multiple pieces for other decks and it becomes easier to justify buying more cards, especially since those cards are likely to be cheaper.

[iatee]

People like to put this all on the reserve list - and I mean the reserve list is stupid, don't get me wrong - but formats that allow you to not buy cards aren't good for Wizards and they aren't good for card vendors. It doesn't matter whether Underground Seas are $20 or $300, you buy them once and you don't buy them again. That's part of the appeal.

Modern is only good for Wizards/vendors in that it helps keep some value in cards that float out of Standard. With the exception of a card here and there, Legacy's not going to ever do that. The format itself is not good for selling cards and never will be, reserve list or no.

I think the argument for SCG keeping legacy alive should be based on the fact that it's a superior tournament format to Modern and that makes for good TV. I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of the SCG best-of clips are crazy legacy plays / decks.

[Zooligan]

People like to put this all on the reserve list - and I mean the reserve list is stupid, don't get me wrong - but formats that allow you to not buy cards aren't good for Wizards and they aren't good for card vendors. It doesn't matter whether Underground Seas are $20 or $300, you buy them once and you don't buy them again. That's part of the appeal.

Modern is only good for Wizards/vendors in that it helps keep some value in cards that float out of Standard. With the exception of a card here and there, Legacy's not going to ever do that. The format itself is not good for selling cards and never will be, reserve list or no.

I think the argument for SCG keeping legacy alive should be based on the fact that it's a superior tournament format to Modern and that makes for good TV. I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of the SCG best-of clips are crazy legacy plays / decks.

Um... disagree! Put a set together with duals in the expedition/invention slots and see how much sealed product gets sold.

EDIT: The more I think about this, the more it could be good for eternal formats in the long run. Hear me out. If Legacy tanks, all the people sitting on the RL cards will see their value plummet (eventually). At that point, WotC has some leverage - "We will reprint in a limited way in order to keep your value from falling any further."

[Lemnear]

Um... disagree! Put a set together with duals in the expedition/invention slots and see how much sealed product gets sold.

You have to consider that WotC works closely with certain vendors and companies, thus will not piss on them by devaluing their stock of cards out of the blue

[Zooligan]

You have to consider that WotC works closely with certain vendors and companies, thus will not piss on them by devaluing their stock of cards out of the blue

Don't you think SSG cutting Legacy support will erode the player base and cause a devaluation anyway? Won't people say "Fuck it, the format is dying a slow death. I'm cashing out wile the cashing is good!" ???

[Megadeus]

The only people selling now are this who don't see the worth in keeping a deck when there's no opportunity to play. The people that don't play are fine with buying at reduced prices

[Zooligan]

The only people selling now are this who don't see the worth in keeping a deck when there's no opportunity to play. The people that don't play are fine with buying at reduced prices

There's got to be a tipping point where people holding the cards realize there's no viable format anymore. At that point, what are they holding the cards for? Who would want them? It will be a race to the bottom as they dump cards trying not to be the one without a chair when the music stops completely.

[Sansian]

If people were banking on playing legacy at an SCG event that was worth going to, they're already two years too late unless you're entranced by the idea of converting $40 and 12 hours of your time into 3,600 worth of fun bucks that you can spend on boxes that you can then sell to 10 people who play draft in order to finally make $800 to buy something useful. And that's assuming you win...

Sadly, I haven't had a reason to play in an SCG event since 2011 other than GP NJ. They abandoned Pittsburgh, and by the time I moved away they abandoned my format. At one point I ran a total of my purchases from SCG and it was an embarrassingly large sum-- these days I rarely pick anything up from them and it honestly disappoints me. SCG used to be a premium brand that I associated with the best in magic. Every Sunday I would tune in to watch Legacy coverage, I'd see a neat deck and pick up what I needed for it when I visited their site on a daily basis. Now SCG doesn't even show up in the top 50 sites that I visit. I wish things had played out differently...

The upside is that locally there are still tourneys to play and pick up games to enjoy, and the good folks at Tales of Adventure are doing their part in providing premier events for the Eternal community. In that way they're really punching above their weight considering how new they are to the large TO scene.

[H]

There's got to be a tipping point where people holding the cards realize there's no viable format anymore. At that point, what are they holding the cards for? Who would want them? It will be a race to the bottom as they dump cards trying not to be the one without a chair when the music stops completely.

I'll definitely be standing at the bottom to scoop up everything I can, if that were to happen. I'm happy to hold my chair, because I didn't buy all this crap to make or preserve value, I bought it because I wanted it and I want to use it to play the game (even if that ends up only being once a year, like Sanctioned Vintage is for me now).

Also, do we really need two threads for this?

[MiraclesWizard]

you all make it sound like SCG was the mother ship. The problem is they obviously don't know how to run a business. I mean we just had Eternal Weekend and Card Titan had a ton of people playing Vintage AND Legacy.

Just because SCG can't hold it together, doesn't mean legacy is gone.

[maharis]

This is a little painful, but relatively speaking it's not worse news than SCG cutting the Sunday open altogether. That was the real gut punch, and Legacy has done pretty well since then. We have a growing community here in Utah, and people here tell me that there was zilch even a year ago. That's all since the SCG open changes and general pessimism around the format.


There's got to be a tipping point where people holding the cards realize there's no viable format anymore and it will be a race to the bottom as they dump cards trying not to be the one without a chair when the music completely stops.

I'll believe this is starting when Star City Games reduces the prices on its 100 volcanic islands from $233 at the lowest. Until then, no reason to panic.

Honestly, people freaking out about card prices is a little silly. I'm willing to take a 50%+ haircut on my legacy collection. I've gotten more than enough enjoyment out of it. How much money have I spent on bullshit in my life with no hope of even partial reimbursement? If I absolutely have no use for my Useas, which cost me $650 for a set, and EDH players give me $250, whatever. I'll live. Buying a collectible hoping for/expecting a payday has never been a sound investment strategy -- see Franklin Mint, comic books, Beanie Babies, etc.

On another topic: I am surprised to hear how much trouble the Tour itself was (apparently) in. It seems a little strange to me that it's so hard to make money off constructed MTG when card prices get out of control so quickly. When you hear about local stores cutting corners, thats one thing -- small-scale businesses have variance in how well they are run and are subject to market pressures -- but SCG is a well-oiled machine with the highest prices in the industry. If they can't figure out a way to generate sustainable revenue from singles sales, entry fees, other products... it makes you wonder how the economies of MTG work at all.

Also: Wizards, its distribution network of LGSes, and SCG have a symbiotic relationship right now when it comes to constructed. SCG is doing a lot of the legwork to run high-level tournaments for Standard. (Didn't Wizards cut the number of GPs recently?) If they were to suddenly stop, I think the impact on Standard card prices would make what might happen to RL staples look like child's play. Without high-level tournaments to play, and artificial scarcity due to changing printing practices, why should a card like Smuggler's Copter ever be a $15 bill for local game stores? LGSes would not be able to afford opening cases and buylisting cards and constructed overall would take a nosedive. That would kill the collectibility of the game forever and take away a lot of the incentive to be a longtime player (which is something Wizards likes to point out). I wonder if that's why Wizards is hyping the collectible lottery with Expeditions and Inventions. But the shine will come off of those if there's no viable format to play them in.

Sorry to rant but every bit of news like this tickles my "Wizards wants this game to be about drafting" conspiracy bone.

[iatee]

On another topic: I am surprised to hear how much trouble the Tour itself was (apparently) in. It seems a little strange to me that it's so hard to make money off constructed MTG when card prices get out of control so quickly. When you hear about local stores cutting corners, thats one thing -- small-scale businesses have variance in how well they are run and are subject to market pressures -- but SCG is a well-oiled machine with the highest prices in the industry. If they can't figure out a way to generate sustainable revenue from singles sales, entry fees, other products... it makes you wonder how the economies of MTG work at all.

Highest prices in the industry when you're selling a commodity isn't a great place to be. Why should anyone buy from SCG? I'm only going to do it if I'm at their event, out of pure convenience.

[Richard Cheese]

It does say at the top that the year will consist of 3 seasons, so one would hope there will be 3 Opens + 3 Team Constructed, each with a Legacy classic the following Sunday. Still not great, but can't really say I blame them. It's disappointing to see the Sunday Classics go, but looking at the coverage archive the last few have all pulled <100 players while Modern is pulling at least 50 more. It would be nice if they just offered both, but I'm guessing at some point it's just not worth the overhead of judges, event staff, and table space.

[twndomn]

SCG is a card store, it might dominate the standard and limited scene on the east coast, it's not the center of Legacy universe, not even close.

Legacy is a grass-root, community-drive format. It'll be alive as long as Wizard supports it, however tiny support it gets. When Wizard drops support like it did to Extended, Legacy would then die out. I don't see why we care so much about SCG Tour.

[Poron]

SCG is a store which by definition has to sell packs or anyway give sense to their buy, therefore it makes perfectly sense they support very much the new formats

[maharis]

Highest prices in the industry when you're selling a commodity isn't a great place to be. Why should anyone buy from SCG? I'm only going to do it if I'm at their event, out of pure convenience.

Right. And every time I went to an SCG event, I usually spent about $100 on cards. That's because I knew the trip was coming up, I'd save up, bring trade stuff, decide to pull the trigger on something for my deck, etc. etc. I think the idea that they didn't make any money on Legacy players is bunk, or they wouldn't still be selling Legacy cards for premium prices (they would be trying to liquidate).

The question is how much money do they need to make. From their one post, the indication is that not enough was coming in. That begs the question: What does a company have to do in order to run high-level constructed tournaments? Is it even possible to make this kind of thing work?

There's plenty of information we don't have about this, of course. But all Magic players should be wary of these kinds of pronouncements. They weren't close to shutting down the whole thing because of the ~30 player difference between a Modern classic and a Legacy classic. There are other things going on.

Edit: I was wrong in my last paragraph. I just ran the numbers. Modern Classics did consistently outdraw Legacy by a significant amount.

However, when there was a Modern open and Standard/Legacy classics, the margins were much closer. Legacy actually outdrew Standard in the last three Classics where those were the two options, and two of the last four before that. The widest gulfs in attendance for Legacy and Standard classics in Standard's favor were early in the year.

What happened after that? Well, there were more cards in rotation with the Eldrazi deck, EMA, and CN2. I bet that helped a lot.

To me this data indicates that people want to play non-rotating formats. The highest-attended classic was nearly 400 people for the Modern classic after the Worcester Legacy open (Non-rotating formats!!!) The second-highest was the 266-player Legacy Classic in New Jersey in August. I don't understand how they look at this data and decide that the world needs MORE Standard classics.

[NeckBird]

want to play non-rotating formats[/U]. The highest-attended classic was nearly 400 people for the Modern classic after the Worcester Legacy open (Non-rotating formats!!!) The second-highest was the 266-player Legacy Classic in New Jersey in August. I don't understand how they look at this data and decide that the world needs MORE Standard classics.

Standard cards are far more liquid than Legacy cards. Even though Legacy was outdrawing Standard, people need to buy more cards more often for Standard than Legacy. Would not be surprised if Standard Classics saw an increase of players (if all things remained the same) because rotation happens once a year now instead of twice a year.

[iatee]

Classics also are kinda just terrible tournaments, which limits their appeal across formats. I don't think SCG wants to accept that. Losing them is annoying mostly because they were a source of weekly paper legacy results, not because they were fantastic tournaments. The root source of this problem seems to be the 2-day opens.

I was willing to go to a Legacy Classic if it were close to NYC just because it was a (moderately) competitive +4 round legacy tournament. But I'm probably never going to go to a Modern one despite playing a decent amount of Modern, because there are just more options for competitive Modern tournaments (PPTQs, etc.) that don't involve much travel. And I think the same is true (and then some) for Standard players.

Even were they to completely get rid of legacy, which may be the future regardless, I think a Saturday Standard Open and a Sunday Modern Open would be much better than having these ugly stepchild Sunday tournaments.

[CptHaddock]

Classics also are kinda just terrible tournaments, which limits their appeal across formats. I don't think SCG wants to accept that. Losing them is annoying mostly because they were a source of weekly paper legacy results, not because they were fantastic tournaments. The root source of this problem seems to be the 2-day opens.

I was willing to go to a Legacy Classic if it were close to NYC just because it was a (moderately) competitive +4 round legacy tournament. But I'm probably never going to go to a Modern one despite playing a decent amount of Modern, because there are just more options for competitive Modern tournaments (PPTQs, etc.) that don't involve much travel. And I think the same is true (and then some) for Standard players.

Even were they to completely get rid of legacy, which may be the future regardless, I think a Saturday Standard Open and a Sunday Modern Open would be much better than having these ugly stepchild Sunday tournaments.

That is what they were doing several years before the whole classic change; there would usually be a Legacy open on Sundays and Standard on Saturdays. That is why there was a huge uproar when they announced the classic change, guess we have finally come full circle.

[maharis]

Classics also are kinda just terrible tournaments, which limits their appeal across formats. I don't think SCG wants to accept that. Losing them is annoying mostly because they were a source of weekly paper legacy results, not because they were fantastic tournaments. The root source of this problem seems to be the 2-day opens.

I was willing to go to a Legacy Classic if it were close to NYC just because it was a (moderately) competitive +4 round legacy tournament. But I'm probably never going to go to a Modern one despite playing a decent amount of Modern, because there are just more options for competitive Modern tournaments (PPTQs, etc.) that don't involve much travel. And I think the same is true (and then some) for Standard players.

Even were they to completely get rid of legacy, which may be the future regardless, I think a Saturday Standard Open and a Sunday Modern Open would be much better than having these ugly stepchild Sunday tournaments.

Honestly, based on attendance numbers, the best move is to make the entire year Modern open, Modern + Legacy Classics. There were five Modern opens with higher attendance than the Standard open with the highest attendance. Modern averaged 769 players over 10 tournaments; Standard was at 592 over 11. (!)

And the data is trending toward Legacy being the secondary format of choice for open attendees. As I said in my last post, Legacy classics have outdrawn Standard each of the last three times they have been head to head, and five of the past seven. In addition, both Legacy opens outdrew every Standard open. (Obviously there are geographical factors at play, but the upshot is people will make time for Legacy.)

I don't believe that the difference in attendance between Standard and Modern can be explained by "people didn't have an outlet for their deck on day 2." If anything, I bet that complaint is more common from Legacy players who get fewer high-level tournaments. They must be making a lot of money off card sales on Standard days to make up for the yawning gulf in attendee revenue. And of course, people buy singles for Modern and Legacy too.

I don't really get what their strategy is. Their willingness to come out and say that they were struggling is indicative of problems beyond "people don't play Legacy."

[iatee]

Yeah, you might be right.

Competitive standard players travel to GPs and grind PPTQs, not the SCG circuit. If SCG wants to build a niche, they should focus on the eternal format of choice, whether that's modern or legacy. They're always going to be the B-league when it comes to standard.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Honestly, so many of my earlier legacy cards have increased in value enough for me to take a 50% haircut and still probably come out ahead. But that's besides the point; my favorite legacy tournaments are still the weekly ones with the same 10-12 people group that fires off every week. Sure, the lack of these scg classics will probably stifle the speed deck innovation, but the format itself changes at a glacial rate anyways. Overall, I do hope that more events like eternal weekend and eternal extravaganza get more people as legacy prices (hopefully) return to a more reasonable range.

As for the reserved list, the primary culprits are still the dual lands. Since wizards does work quite closely with card stores and doesn't want to disrupt their investments too much, I could potentially see a compromise to essentially give these large box stores copies of newly printed dual lands to offset their losses. This would obviously be detrimental to smaller stores and collectors without direct connections to wizards, but Hasbro stands to profit from tapping into a new market with product that will probably have very wide appeal (especially if it is released as an eternal masters set once or twice a year rather than every two years).

As for litigation such a reprinting would cause, Hasbro certainly has a group of high priced lawyers on retainer. I'm sure they will be able to either block any smaller suits before going to court or come to card (rather than cash) settlements. Larger box stores will already have been appeased with essentially free cash (valuable cards they can sell). Sure, it leaves the door open for some sort of class action suit with long term collectors and smaller stores; however if such a case were to really come about, I personally feel that Hasbro has a pretty good shot to win, especially when they are basically creating a whole new line of product that will require minimal R&D and some new art (which most artists would be scrambling to do).

[thecrav]

Highest prices in the industry when you're selling a commodity isn't a great place to be.

If you're selling them at the highest price and not just listing them at the highest price, that's a great place to be!


That is what they were doing several years before the whole classic change; there would usually be a Legacy open on Sundays and Standard on Saturdays.

I really enjoyed this because it meant that each Sunday, when I finished whatever I was doing today, I sat down and watched the last handful of rounds of coverage. Having fallen out of regularly watching coverage, I find myself forgetting to watch it when it does finally come back around. I haven't watched a full round of MTG on stream since... GP Seattle?

[anwei]

The aspect I can't figure out is why they're capping Sundays at 2 big events. Running the Open format again seems fine, but if they're going to have a semi-arbitrary number for how many to run, the number of major formats seems like a good one to pick.

The potential downside, of course, is that attendance disperses among the 3 events and Classic attendance falls even further. It looks like they've been average paying around 120% in tix->credit. Collecting $5K to do $6K in sales, at margin, is probably borderline worth it but something of a loss-leader - the Classics do add value to the Open/weekend/card-acquisitioning/sales, so they probably accept that (and occasionally they have a bigger turnout and make more). If the Classics numbers diminished further (like if they added a 3rd one each week), it would become a more serious hit.

Obvious solution: scale prize support to attendance. Put 160 tix/player in the pool and pay out in predictable percentages, with invites extended at certain cutoffs. This means less of a guaranteed payout, which might be off-putting to some, but no one is that excited about Classic payout anyway. They'll likely draw more people who want to play Legacy than they'll lose for not guaranteeing more fun bucks in the side event.

[nedleeds]

Also, do we really need two threads for this?

Yes. So I can post this again.

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14955771_275550089508645_5261975975287678880_n.jpg?oh=628f3dad4b6300c002e9007101bd1c51&oe=58D52D83

[Aggro_zombies]

You have to consider that WotC works closely with certain vendors and companies, thus will not piss on them by devaluing their stock of cards out of the blue
It's worth remembering that when Wizards held some closed-door discussions about the Reserved List years ago, Ben Bleiweiss was one of the people they invited.

So SCG has had a seat at the table about these things, and as far as we know, they were (and presumably still are) anti-Reserved List. Putting more stock into the market lets them make up in volume what they lose on any given sale.

[Lord Seth]

you all make it sound like SCG was the mother ship. The problem is they obviously don't know how to run a business.
Star City Games knows exactly how to run a business. I think they're run far more intelligently than Wizards of the Coast is. This decision sucks for Legacy players, but I don't think it's bad from a business perspective by any means. Wizards of the Coast is the one that makes perpetually dumb business decisions and stays in business only because the game can run on its own fumes at this point.

[thecrav]

It's worth remembering that when Wizards held some closed-door discussions about the Reserved List years ago, Ben Bleiweiss was one of the people they invited.

So SCG has had a seat at the table about these things, and as far as we know, they were (and presumably still are) anti-Reserved List.

There have been several articles on StarCityGames.com, including The first result on Google for "starcitygames reserved list" (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=16737) in which an SCG writer, in this case, Ben Bleiweiss himself, argues against the reserved list.



Maybe the Reserve List should look more like the Legacy Banned or Vintage Restricted Lists; maybe the Reserve List should be redone from scratch because I think it does serve a valuable purpose for the cards that need protecting; but in general the Reserve List is lazy short-sighted anachronistic and should be restructured to make sense and not be a promise to a group of players that mostly don't exist anymore and even more wouldn't care about the change even if they do.


If you dig a bit further, Ben has also written about his trip to Washington, as well.

[BenBleiweiss]

There have been several articles on StarCityGames.com, including The first result on Google for "starcitygames reserved list" (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=16737) in which an SCG writer, in this case, Ben Bleiweiss himself, argues against the reserved list.



If you dig a bit further, Ben has also written about his trip to Washington, as well.

I am, and we as a company, would still love to see the Reserve List abolished. Our position on this has not changed.

[BenBleiweiss]

Obvious solution: scale prize support to attendance. Put 160 tix/player in the pool and pay out in predictable percentages, with invites extended at certain cutoffs. This means less of a guaranteed payout, which might be off-putting to some, but no one is that excited about Classic payout anyway. They'll likely draw more people who want to play Legacy than they'll lose for not guaranteeing more fun bucks in the side event.

I just want to note that scaling prizes to attendance runs afoul of the gambling laws in the majority (80%+) of State laws in the United States. This is why the GP prizes are an add-on once they hit "X" players without changing any of the previous guaranteed payouts at lower tiers and/or changing what the "lowest possible" tier can pay out.

[Julian23]

Time for Legacy player's to sell a couple of surplus duals and pool their money to buy a Caribbean island nation to host tournaments. I hear Saint Kitts and Nevis is lovely this time of the year.

[Lemnear]

Time for Legacy player's to sell a couple of surplus duals and pool their money to buy a Caribbean island nation to host tournaments. I hear Saint Kitts and Nevis is lovely this time of the year.

Please ... i would have a better idea on a caribbean island ;p.

In addition there are some serious rainshowers and other stuff to damage cardboard

[Megadeus]

Everyone pool together and purchase together a big banquet building. We'll put cots for everyone to sleep on and during the day we'll play events. And we enslave standard players who run the mess hall and clean our bathrooms. And the limited players are the TOs. And of course the puppeteers orchestrating it all behind the scenes are the .01%, the 93/94 players

[ironclad8690]

Time for Legacy player's to sell a couple of surplus duals and pool their money to buy a Caribbean island nation to host tournaments. I hear Saint Kitts and Nevis is lovely this time of the year.

Just going to leave this here... (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Duelist_Kingdom)

[Minniehajj]

just going to leave this here... (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/duelist_kingdom)

please for the love of god let's make this happen!

[hymnyou]

Yes. So I can post this again.

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14955771_275550089508645_5261975975287678880_n.jpg?oh=628f3dad4b6300c002e9007101bd1c51&oe=58D52D83

Bump.

SCG has been failing for a couple years, they have dropped more non-legacy support than Legacy support. They have pretty much eliminated the entire West Coast of North America as of late- eliminated states, IQ's etc now. TCG has done no good for SCG while SCG tried to go above and beyond their means. They are in the midst of crumbling which seems obvious when I read these half-ass letters from peter hoefling about random ah-ha moments with napkins on airplanes.

As noted by others, SCG is not the engine behind Legacy. They helped pushed it into the spotlight, expanding the player base, eternal entertainment and statistics. I appreciate those things, but never would I say that SCG determines life or death of the format. Tales of Adventure is continuing to move forward, and I recommend all players involved in their community to reach out to local stores invested/interested in Legacy to connect with TOA. I for one am going to be focusing my online purchases with TOA.

-------------------------

Announcement from yesterday:

In 2016, we launched the Eternal Extravaganza Satellite Series - eleven exciting events each offering over $1,000 in prizes as well as a bye to our Legacy Main Event. In 2017, Tales of Adventure is going to be kicking our events into overdrive.
No matter where you live, or how many Eternal players there are in your area, there will be an Eternal Extravaganza Satellite Series event for you. We’re extending our reach far beyond the Northeast with our new Bronze, Silver, and Gold events, each offering EEPoints that can award you byes or free Entry to any or all of our Main Events! This will all culminate at each of our two Eternal Extravaganza $35,000 weekends, where the top eight players on our EEPoint leaderboard each season will score a berth in our $2,500 Eternal Extravaganza Auction of Champions Invitational on Friday!
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4-0: 5 EEPoints
3-1: 2 EEPoints
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1st Place: 50 EEPoints and a Winner’s Trophy!
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3rd-4th Place: 10 EEPoints
Silver events will also be given 2 playmats from Eternal Extravaganzas past to be given as door prizes
Gold events are the most exciting, offering enough EEPoints for a bye and free entry to a future Eternal Extravaganza event to first, and enough for a bye to second!
1st Place: 100 EEPoints and a Winner’s Trophy!
2nd Place: 50 EEPoints
3rd-4th Place: 25 EEPoints
5th-8th Place: 10 EEPoints
All of those EEPoints have to lead up to something cool, right? Welcome to the Eternal Extravaganza Players’ Club!
Level 1: 50 Points
Bank a one-round bye for one Main Event
Level 2: 100 Points
Bank a one-round bye for one Main Event and free entry
Level 3: 200 Points
Bank a two-round bye for one Main Event and free entry
Level 4: 300 Points
Bank a two-round bye for all Main events at one Eternal Extravaganza and free Entry to both of those events.
Level 5: 500 Points
Receive a $200 appearance fee for any one Eternal Extravaganza event, two-round byes and free entry to all Main Events that weekend.
Level 6: 1000 Points
Receive a $500 appearance fee for any one Eternal Extravaganza event, two-round byes and free entry to all Main Events that weekend
The Monday before each Eternal Extravaganza, players will receive the benefits of the highest tier reached over the course of the season, and those EEPoints will be deducted from their total. Leftover EEPoints each season will carry over for Players’ club rewards, but will not count toward the leaderboard for the following season. In addition, Eternal Extravaganza Main events will not award EEPoints, but players in Top 8 of each Main Event will be automatically promoted to Level 1 for the following season, and the winner of each Main Event will be automatically promoted to Level 3!
The Invitational:
The top eight finishers each season on our EEPoint leaderboard will each earn a berth into our $2,500 Eternal Extravaganza Auction of Champions Invitational on Friday! Don’t know what the Auction of the Champions is? It’s an exciting format where we pick decks that have finished 1st or 2nd at a Legacy Grand Prix at some point in history and the players will collectively bid starting life points and cards in hand to be able to play with the chosen decks. You can read more about this format that was played at the 2000 Magic Invitational at http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Auction
There will be more details about this event coming soon. The prizes are as follows:
1st: $600
2nd: $500
3rd-4th: $300
5th-8th: $200
Talk to your local store about hosting Eternal Extravaganza Satellite events! You can reach us at Satellites@eemagic.com

[PirateKing]

Time for Legacy player's to sell a couple of surplus duals and pool their money to buy a Caribbean island nation to host tournaments. I hear Saint Kitts and Nevis is lovely this time of the year.

Hasbro's market cap is like $10.25 billion dollars. Pool our money and buy a voting demographic to change the Reserve List from within!

[iatee]

As noted by others, SCG is not the engine behind Legacy. They helped pushed it into the spotlight, expanding the player base, eternal entertainment and statistics. I appreciate those things, but never would I say that SCG determines life or death of the format. Tales of Adventure is continuing to move forward, and I recommend all players involved in their community to reach out to local stores invested/interested in Legacy to connect with TOA. I for one am going to be focusing my online purchases with TOA.

I think this is big. TOA is making a valiant effort to make this stuff work and everyone should do what they can do contribute, by:

a. Ensuring their LGS runs these events
b. Showing up to them - and EE - regularly and bringing friends
c. Rewarding TOA with as much of your business as possible, both in buying (which is easy and their prices are reasonable) and selling cards (wait until an EE event to unload your binder).

[Varal]

Attendance numbers are probably not the principal metric used by SCG, it's most likely some measure of income including sales, purchase and on-site delivery of cards in addition to entry fees. I agree that SCG seems to be struggling with cuts in tournaments and reduced articles; CFB seems to have better articles nowadays, at least they are more interesting to me. I barely just read Chas Andres articles nowadays. It could just be optimization to stay on top by cutting a program that was never profitable but it doesn't seem as dominant as it once was.

[CptHaddock]

Attendance numbers are probably not the principal metric used by SCG, it's most likely some measure of income including sales, purchase and on-site delivery of cards in addition to entry fees. I agree that SCG seems to be struggling with cuts in tournaments and reduced articles; CFB seems to have better articles nowadays, at least they are more interesting to me. I barely just read Chas Andres articles nowadays. It could just be optimization to stay on top by cutting a program that was never profitable but it doesn't seem as dominant as it once was.

I agree. Meanwhile you have SCG associated people making statements like this (https://twitter.com/Nickthos/status/793525010518401025) like it's actually going matter. Can't wait for 2 years down the line when staples have dipped in price for SCG to buy them up and restart hosting legacy events because of demands. :rolleyes:



Nick Miller
Legacy players: Y'all have talked a lot these past 24 hours or so. Walk the walk and show up to #SCGBALT or watch the broadcast.

[maharis]

Bump.

SCG has been failing for a couple years, they have dropped more non-legacy support than Legacy support. They have pretty much eliminated the entire West Coast of North America as of late- eliminated states, IQ's etc now. TCG has done no good for SCG while SCG tried to go above and beyond their means. They are in the midst of crumbling which seems obvious when I read these half-ass letters from peter hoefling about random ah-ha moments with napkins on airplanes.

As noted by others, SCG is not the engine behind Legacy. They helped pushed it into the spotlight, expanding the player base, eternal entertainment and statistics. I appreciate those things, but never would I say that SCG determines life or death of the format. Tales of Adventure is continuing to move forward, and I recommend all players involved in their community to reach out to local stores invested/interested in Legacy to connect with TOA. I for one am going to be focusing my online purchases with TOA.


This is very astute and something that I think people are missing. The problems with the SCG tour that Hoefling outlined cannot be explained by "Legacy players don't show up/buy cards." We all know that's not true. They must be making a ton of money off Standard to offset the $8500 gap in attendee revenue between a Standard open and Modern or Legacy. Or they may be completely clueless and crashing and burning. I don't know.

Regardless, the ability to play high-level Legacy is something I'm not taking for granted. SCG is running a Legacy GP in Louisville in January. (I suspect this is the reason why they are still charging a minimum of $230 for a Volcanic Island.) I still plan on going, but not buying anything besides tournament entry from them, unless they start dumping stuff.

I think the best thing to do is not dwell on their dwindling Legacy support but just fold them into a rotation with all the other stores/TOs that now have the market space to run their own events with their own cost considerations.

[Barook]

Time for Legacy player's to sell a couple of surplus duals and pool their money to buy a Caribbean island nation to host tournaments. I hear Saint Kitts and Nevis is lovely this time of the year.
Does being on an Island give it automatically AWESOME? :really:


Just going to leave this here... (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Duelist_Kingdom)
A Mecca for MtG players? I would love that.

[Richard Cheese]

Attendance numbers are probably not the principal metric used by SCG, it's most likely some measure of income including sales, purchase and on-site delivery of cards in addition to entry fees. I agree that SCG seems to be struggling with cuts in tournaments and reduced articles; CFB seems to have better articles nowadays, at least they are more interesting to me. I barely just read Chas Andres articles nowadays. It could just be optimization to stay on top by cutting a program that was never profitable but it doesn't seem as dominant as it once was.

Agreed. It may be that reduced sales of format staples is driving the reduction in support. That seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, as the Open Series had to be one of the primary drivers behind sales/price increases to begin with. Could just be that with little to no changes to the Tier 1 decks over the past few years, people already have everything they need and/or aren't enthusiastic enough about the format to keep pouring money into it. I know personal anecdotes != data, but I haven't bought any new cards specifically for Legacy in a long time, and I'm at the point where spending more than $50 on an event isn't really worth it anymore.

Regardless, I'm not sure where all this speculation that SCG as a company is failing is coming from. WOTC cut back on GPs as well, and they seem to be doing fine, and nobody else has even attempted to do something on the scale of the Open Series. Like Varal said, it may just be that Legacy never made them much money between sales and attendance, so they're just cutting their losses.

[iatee]

I think the speculation that SCG is failing comes from the President saying:

"However, we knew that if we were unable to accomplish the latter, there was a very real possibility we'd have to discontinue the entire SCG Tour® at the end of this year."

+ what appears to be a desperate reworking of their tournament structures.

[Richard Cheese]

I think the speculation that SCG is failing comes from the President saying:

"However, we knew that if we were unable to accomplish the latter, there was a very real possibility we'd have to discontinue the entire SCG Tour® at the end of this year."

+ what appears to be a desperate reworking of their tournament structures.

Where's that from? I've only read the article at the beginning of this post, or the previous one about the restructuring of the series from 2015, so apparently I'm out of the loop.

[iatee]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33954_2017-SCG-Tour-And-In-Store-Programs-Update.html

[Richard Cheese]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33954_2017-SCG-Tour-And-In-Store-Programs-Update.html

Interesting. I actually went to their site and tried to look for more under Articles->News, but nothing showed up. Certainly makes things sound worse than I thought they were, but I'm not sure this implies that the entire business is/was in jeopardy though. It would be nice if he were a bit more transparent about what those external factors were, and what exactly this "missing piece" of the solution was. Private companies gonna private though.

[Dark Ritual]

I stopped paying attention to SCG for legacy an eternity ago it feels like. Support for it will continue to be cut until they no longer even have legacy as a format at opens outside of on demand 8 mans that everyone has.

[Barook]

Interesting. I actually went to their site and tried to look for more under Articles->News, but nothing showed up. Certainly makes things sound worse than I thought they were, but I'm not sure this implies that the entire business is/was in jeopardy though. It would be nice if he were a bit more transparent about what those external factors were, and what exactly this "missing piece" of the solution was. Private companies gonna private though.
They made a killing for years by cornering the market and driving up prices. They can't do that anymore as prices have reached saturation.

Plus, they sell their shit way above market price (on back of customer service and people liking them for providing tournaments). Those gimmicks don't work anymore, especially if there are viable alternatives.

I can see them struggling, given that their business model was never a stable or sustainable one in the long run to begin with. Hence the bigger focus in Standard where they can still sell singles/boosters.

[anwei]

I just want to note that scaling prizes to attendance runs afoul of the gambling laws in the majority (80%+) of State laws in the United States. This is why the GP prizes are an add-on once they hit "X" players without changing any of the previous guaranteed payouts at lower tiers and/or changing what the "lowest possible" tier can pay out.

Thanks, that is certainly interesting and I was unaware. It does make me immediately ask: (a) is an LGS doing "2 packs / player in the pool" illegal?, (b) what stops setting smaller sure-thing payouts that only anticipate, say, 50 players, then setting up stretch goals for every additional 10-20 players after that?

[maharis]

I agree. Meanwhile you have SCG associated people making statements like this (https://twitter.com/Nickthos/status/793525010518401025) like it's actually going matter. Can't wait for 2 years down the line when staples have dipped in price for SCG to buy them up and restart hosting legacy events because of demands. :rolleyes:

Yeah, never let anyone from SCG tell you your attendance matters. It doesn't.

The average Modern open pulls 769 people. This is averaged over 10 events in 2016. The two Legacy opens pulled 755 and 772 people, so same ballpark. Standard opens average 592 attendees. At $50 a pop, you are looking at a difference in attendee revenue of just about $9,000 on average between Standard and Modern/Legacy.

Not only must Standard opens be making up this $9k in revenue with card sales -- they must be exceeding whatever single sales that Legacy produces. With Standard decks averaging, let's say, $300 to $400 at SCG prices they only need 30 or so people buying their decks that morning to pull even, then everything else is gravy. I don't know how widespread this practice is, but I could see 30 people out of 600 doing it. That's not a huge percentage.

On the other hand, I can't imagine that Legacy tournaments don't have people picking up missing pieces -- one last dual land, some sideboard tech, pimp cards. I suppose they would cut Legacy opens entirely if that wasn't the case. Guess it's just not enough to beat Standard.

[Michael Keller]

Star City Games doing this has me thinking:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3b1JW7LxfsAKs/giphy.gif

[bruizar]

Yeah, never let anyone from SCG tell you your attendance matters. It doesn't.

The average Modern open pulls 769 people. This is averaged over 10 events in 2016. The two Legacy opens pulled 755 and 772 people, so same ballpark. Standard opens average 592 attendees. At $50 a pop, you are looking at a difference in attendee revenue of just about $9,000 on average between Standard and Modern/Legacy.

Not only must Standard opens be making up this $9k in revenue with card sales -- they must be exceeding whatever single sales that Legacy produces. With Standard decks averaging, let's say, $300 to $400 at SCG prices they only need 30 or so people buying their decks that morning to pull even, then everything else is gravy. I don't know how widespread this practice is, but I could see 30 people out of 600 doing it. That's not a huge percentage.

On the other hand, I can't imagine that Legacy tournaments don't have people picking up missing pieces -- one last dual land, some sideboard tech, pimp cards. I suppose they would cut Legacy opens entirely if that wasn't the case. Guess it's just not enough to beat Standard.

I think the issue isvthat 1) duals dont sell that well, 2) it has become hard to profit off of eternal staples as prices have gotten out of hand. For what price does scg have to buy tabernacle or moat, and what do they need to flip it for to make a profit? Not many legacy players have that kind of capital to burn. Scg started buying out legend staples and with the abyss, I know brcause ben bleiweiss bought from me when they bought up the MCM stock. Now, other people are doing it and the market is heating up. Chains @ 300, invoke prejudice at 100, all hallows eve at 100-160, and moat at 450 is just too much.

[lordofthepit]

Yeah, never let anyone from SCG tell you your attendance matters. It doesn't.

The average Modern open pulls 769 people. This is averaged over 10 events in 2016. The two Legacy opens pulled 755 and 772 people, so same ballpark. Standard opens average 592 attendees. At $50 a pop, you are looking at a difference in attendee revenue of just about $9,000 on average between Standard and Modern/Legacy.

This is entirely consistent with the trends I observed back when I cared about SCG attendance figures. It did not affect their format schedule whatsoever.

[Bryant Cook]

This is entirely consistent with the trends I observed back when I cared about SCG attendance figures. It did not affect their format schedule whatsoever.

I used your statistics as a reference against Cedric arguing about how poor Legacy does (This week on my FB wall). Thanks for the hard work.

[MiraclesWizard]

anyone seeing what Tales of Adventure is trying to do? Looks like they're trying to kick start their own legacy leagues across shops everywhere....picking up the ball that SCG fumbled potentially?

[H]

anyone seeing what Tales of Adventure is trying to do? Looks like they're trying to kick start their own legacy leagues across shops everywhere....picking up the ball that SCG fumbled potentially?

Yeah, a copy of their Facebook announcement was posted a page ago by hymnyou.

[maharis]

I think the issue isvthat 1) duals dont sell that well, 2) it has become hard to profit off of eternal staples as prices have gotten out of hand. For what price does scg have to buy tabernacle or moat, and what do they need to flip it for to make a profit? Not many legacy players have that kind of capital to burn. Scg started buying out legend staples and with the abyss, I know brcause ben bleiweiss bought from me when they bought up the MCM stock. Now, other people are doing it and the market is heating up. Chains @ 300, invoke prejudice at 100, all hallows eve at 100-160, and moat at 450 is just too much.

The thing that gets me, though, is... Why do this?? These cards will rot in cases forever at these prices. And they are the ones making the case against Legacy! (Not necessarily in their announcement, but on social media.)

"We'll buy your Legacy cards, mark them up, but we won't provide outlets to use them" is a terrible business model. I guess I could see the potential for EDH players picking up their one-of duals and such, but that's even less supported of a format than Legacy.

[Lemnear]

The thing that gets me, though, is... Why do this?? These cards will rot in cases forever at these prices. And they are the ones making the case against Legacy! (Not necessarily in their announcement, but on social media.)

"We'll buy your Legacy cards, mark them up, but we won't provide outlets to use them" is a terrible business model. I guess I could see the potential for EDH players picking up their one-of duals and such, but that's even less supported of a format than Legacy.

I think that "we drove up the prices and earned shitloads of money in that spiral, but now the prices are so damn high that we can't flip enough anymore and therefore move to another format we can do it once more" is a solid business model given the remaining Legacy cardstock is low

[HSCK]

The thing that gets me, though, is... Why do this?? These cards will rot in cases forever at these prices. And they are the ones making the case against Legacy! (Not necessarily in their announcement, but on social media.)

"We'll buy your Legacy cards, mark them up, but we won't provide outlets to use them" is a terrible business model. I guess I could see the potential for EDH players picking up their one-of duals and such, but that's even less supported of a format than Legacy.

EDH is both a much larger format and much more supported format in my eyes. They commit themselves to designing and printing new EDH sets every year and they keep in in mind during the design of standard sets. We don't have tons of data, but I'm almost certain EDH has a much much larger player base than Legacy. Whether or not that moves duals is another question.

[iatee]

I don't imagine that SCG cares that much about the actual prices of their legacy stock relative to anything else. The company buys cards for under their market price and sells them for slightly above their market price. They make money off the velocity of this process. Standard and modern have higher velocity than legacy, so they're always going to make more money off them. This would be true if Tundras were $20, $40 or $200. But the format getting more expensive slowed things down even more relative to other formats, because people are naturally hesitant to sell and buy very expensive magic cards. I suspect the reason why they're for getting rid of the reserve list is related to this - they'd rather be constantly buying and selling $20 Tundras than selling one $200 every once in a while.

[.dk]

I used your statistics as a reference against Cedric arguing about how poor Legacy does (This week on my FB wall). Thanks for the hard work.

I don't get his and others' asshole-ish response to you in regards to that post and the data either. If there are other factors, they could try to explain rather than the typical "oh you legacy players ::eyeroll::" response you get from them. Their attitude makes me even less interested in trying to get them to support eternal formats. Would rather give my money to TOA or whoever else actually cares.

[H]

I don't get his and others' asshole-ish response to you in regards to that post and the data either. If there are other factors, they could try to explain rather than the typical "oh you legacy players ::eyeroll::" response you get from them. Their attitude makes me even less interested in trying to get them to support eternal formats. Would rather give my money to TOA or whoever else actually cares.

I haven't/can't see the post(s) but are you really shocked that people on Facebook would respond flippantly with tired cliches and vague claims? Facebook is as good for meaningful communication as 4chan.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't get his and others' asshole-ish response to you in regards to that post and the data either. If there are other factors, they could try to explain rather than the typical "oh you legacy players ::eyeroll::" response you get from them. Their attitude makes me even less interested in trying to get them to support eternal formats. Would rather give my money to TOA or whoever else actually cares.

Cedric & Patrick both have invested stakes here, they're going to back SCG no matter what.

I remained calm and collected even when others weren't – it's the internet, something I've learned over years of posting is not everyone will like you. But who cares?

I'm not going to accept a bunch of requests, but here's the post: http://imgur.com/a/B6Tyu

[.dk]

I haven't/can't see the post(s) but are you really shocked that people on Facebook would respond flippantly with tired cliches and vague claims? Facebook is as good for meaningful communication as 4chan.

I mean, I'm not shocked, it's just... these guys are supposed to be representing SCG and their brand - and posts and tweets like have been mentioned in this thread are damaging to that. I guess I still had this tiny little naive hope that they would actually care, and it was crushed once again. Maybe it just comes from how I deal with people in context of my job and expecting the same from someone else: respectful communication and interaction.

[.dk]

Cedric & Patrick both have invested stakes here, they're going to back SCG no matter what.

I remained calm and collected even when others weren't – it's the internet, something I've learned over years of posting is not everyone will like you. But who cares?

I'm not going to accept a bunch of requests, but here's the post: http://imgur.com/a/B6Tyu

I get that, but it's not a matter of backing them or not, in this case. Of course they will back them - and given their jobs they should. All I would be looking for is an actual explanation instead of "legacy players don't show up"

[Bryant Cook]

I get that, but it's not a matter of backing them or not, in this case. Of course they will back them - and given their jobs they should. All I would be looking for is an actual explanation instead of "legacy players don't show up"

In their defense, it's not their call. I don't think Cedric, Pat & Nick are in the room when high-level decisions are made. You would have to look at Ben, Pete and if they have a board.

I spoke to Pete when my Japanese foil Brainstorm was damaged by a SCG writer/affiliate, while I didnt get the answer I wanted - he treated me with respect and professionalism.

[.dk]

In their defense, it's not their call. I don't think Cedric, Pat & Nick are in the room when high-level decisions are made. You would have to look at Ben, Pete and if they have a board.

I spoke to Pete when my Japanese foil Brainstorm was damaged by a SCG writer/affiliate, while I didnt get the answer I wanted - he treated me with respect and professionalism.

That's a fair point. My interactions with Pete have always been pleasant as well.

[Megadeus]

I agree with one of the final posters on your post Bryant. Nobody really thought legacy was "dying" or anything until support got cut. Once that happened the prices never went down but many people stopped playing the format because there was no outlet outside of classics. I even accepted that the classics were the best consistent tourneys. Now this? I've never had a negative experience at an SCG event. They are the best at running them. It's just disappointing to see them drop the format I love most. So I guess they won't bring legacy stock to events anymore since nobody that wants them will be there? Anyway,I look forward to Louisville in January and I hope everyone will attend and show that the format is alive and well

[maharis]

I get that, but it's not a matter of backing them or not, in this case. Of course they will back them - and given their jobs they should. All I would be looking for is an actual explanation instead of "legacy players don't show up"

Right! This is total bullshit and I am saddened that Cedric, Pat, and Nick go to this well every time. Legacy players filled the available Opens, and the trend was when there were Legacy and Standard Classics, that Legacy Classics drew more players.

The upshot of all the SCG data is that Modern is by far their most popular format. The format has its problems, but I think we can all relate to the motivation to play it: being able to fine-tune a deck and play it over several months instead of each new set radically altering the landscape.

But the fact that SCG hasn't gone to all Modern indicates that they must be selling lots of cards to those standard players. The question is: Will that continue? And as card prices drop -- Kaladesh Standard is much less expensive than the Khans era, for example -- is that going to be enough to make up for the gulf in attendee revenue?

I think the company has way more to gain by reducing its dependence on standard and becoming the premier play to play non-rotating formats, but again -- I'm not privy to their cost structure and can't say for sure they're in a position to make that switch. But they keep ratcheting back their tournament series. It's not just Legacy taking a hit. It's clear that the model is in trouble from many angles, but one of them is not "Legacy players don't show up."


EDH is both a much larger format and much more supported format in my eyes. They commit themselves to designing and printing new EDH sets every year and they keep in in mind during the design of standard sets. We don't have tons of data, but I'm almost certain EDH has a much much larger player base than Legacy. Whether or not that moves duals is another question.

Right, bolded is my point. EDH is supported obviously, but it's still mostly casual and players play with proxies all the time. I mean, at this point, if players were really willing to pick up RL staples en masse for their EDH decks, you'd think the prices on some of the second-tier duals would be more since practically every EDH deck can use at least one.

[CptHaddock]

Cedric & Patrick both have invested stakes here, they're going to back SCG no matter what.

I remained calm and collected even when others weren't – it's the internet, something I've learned over years of posting is not everyone will like you. But who cares?

I'm not going to accept a bunch of requests, but here's the post: http://imgur.com/a/B6Tyu

"If legacy was such a big deal, people would attend the events. They didn't because surprise surprise, the Legacy community isn't as large and supportive as you think."

:eek:

I do hope he responded to your post about lordofthepit's analysis on SCG's numbers.

[H]

"If legacy was such a big deal, people would attend the events. They didn't because surprise surprise, the Legacy community isn't as large and supportive as you think."

:eek:

I do hope he responded to your post about lordofthepit's analysis on SCG's numbers.

While ensconced in snark, that's the real answer right there, I think. Legacy didn't make them enough money from sales. The answer isn't attendance as alluded to. I think the SCG Tour/Open Series/whatever it's called now, is far more about ROIC than revenue from attendance. So, the question isn't, "did the event make money?", the question is "Did the event lead to a corresponding rise in sales that warrants it's running?"

I mean, it has to be something like that, right? There's no way SCG is cutting profitable events, right? Well, wait, maybe they are, in that they are looking to replace them with more profitable events. I'd guess that the average Modern or Standard kid probably does spend a noticeable amount more on cards than we as a Legacy group do, probably because of Limited. Who here wants to bother with that? Standard and Modern kids burn money on that shit and it is a cash cow. When we scrub out, we take our money and go buy booze/food/whatever. These kids throw in into the dumpster fire than is an 8-man win-a-box.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Legacy didn't make them enough money from sales. The answer isn't attendance as alluded to. I think the SCG Tour/Open Series/whatever it's called now, is far more about ROIC than revenue from attendance. So, the question isn't, "did the event make money?", the question is "Did the event lead to a corresponding rise in sales that warrants it's running?"
http://www.johnshelleysjournal.com/nail-hammer.jpg

[Richard Cheese]

While ensconced in snark, that's the real answer right there, I think. Legacy didn't make them enough money from sales. The answer isn't attendance as alluded to. I think the SCG Tour/Open Series/whatever it's called now, is far more about ROIC than revenue from attendance. So, the question isn't, "did the event make money?", the question is "Did the event lead to a corresponding rise in sales that warrants it's running?"

I think that's probably the primary reason too. Back when they first started, Legacy was obviously profitable enough to continue investing in because they added it to every Open and expanded the series so there was an event almost every weekend.

What that doesn't explain is the reduced support for the Open series in general. I don't think we can just point to Legacy sales as a reason for them cutting out the entire West coast. Did something change with shipping? Insurance? At the same time we're seeing reduced GP support from WotC, entry fees rising across the board, and more events moving to tickets/prize wall structure...is something going on with big Magic tournaments in general? GP attendance numbers look fine, at a glance anyway.

[Stevestamopz]

Bryant - could you post what Sullivan wrote? His 3 points were hidden so to speak.

[lordofthepit]

I used your statistics as a reference against Cedric arguing about how poor Legacy does (This week on my FB wall). Thanks for the hard work.

Glad it was useful for you. I stopped caring about SCG long before the players on the East Coast and Midwest did, since they no longer have a presence here.

Just as you, I didn't mind overpaying for cards from SCG when their interests aligned with my personal preferences, but there is really no reason to buy from them anymore, since they certainly can't compete on price.

[Claymore]

I wouldn't be surprised if taxes, booking etc was much more expensive in California at least, so that on top of the allusions that SCG events are financially challenged could mean why they abandoned the west coast.

[maharis]

What irritates me is that SCG reps are the ones blaming attendance, then they dance around the fact that it's really about card sales. I don't see why they have to take a dump on Legacy players. I concede that I can't know for sure how many cards Standard players buy, but I can say for sure that Legacy attendance at their events is fine. And, if attendance was as important as they make it sound, they'd run nothing but Modern.

Anyway. We interviewed Michael Caffrey from Tales of Adventure on the Eternal Durdles podcast last night. Check it out if you are interested in hearing more about the Eternal Extravaganza series. I plan on supporting them with a card order today.

http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2016/11/episode-15-big-news-legacy-fans/

[CptHaddock]

What irritates me is that SCG reps are the ones blaming attendance, then they dance around the fact that it's really about card sales. I don't see why they have to take a dump on Legacy players. I concede that I can't know for sure how many cards Standard players buy, but I can say for sure that Legacy attendance at their events is fine. And, if attendance was as important as they make it sound, they'd run nothing but Modern.


This is what really bugs me as well. For the last 2 legacy cutting announcements the go to response has been that people just don't attend the events. Obviously people outside of the company (and those not in higher positions) will never get the full story so we all have to go on is speculation based on factors like attendance rates. With the quality that is associated with SCG I just wished that they had just straight up said that they are phasing out legacy rather than random employees implying stuff about the legacy opens/classics.

Like Cedric said in his post, in the end SCG is a card shop. If they're not going to support formats I play then I won't be supporting them.

[H]

I really doubt if anyone besides Pete and Ben and whoever else is senior management really knows the reasoning behind it though, so anything said by other employees is really of no value. I can't imagine them discussing high-level business decisions with the commentary crew. That being said, if it were my business, you better believe employees wouldn't be commenting on company decisions on Facebook. You say, "talk to PR department." The again, they probably don't have a PR/media relations person, but that's their own (bad) organizational choice.

[CptHaddock]

I really doubt if anyone besides Pete and Ben and whoever else is senior management really knows the reasoning behind it though, so anything said by other employees is really of no value. I can't imagine them discussing high-level business decisions with the commentary crew. That being said, if it were my business, you better believe employees wouldn't be commenting on company decisions on Facebook. You say, "talk to PR department." The again, they probably don't have a PR/media relations person, but that's their own (bad) organizational choice.

Fwiw Cedric is their media manager.

[H]

Fwiw Cedric is their media manager.

:laugh:

I forgot that. Well, like I said, can't help their bad organizational habits...

[MaximumC]

What irritates me is that SCG reps are the ones blaming attendance, then they dance around the fact that it's really about card sales. I don't see why they have to take a dump on Legacy players.

Is there any data correlating sales on Legacy staples, attendance, and price increases? I wonder if the Legacy spikes in the last two years led to a decrease in sales. One imagines they would have, right? In other words, the whole problem goes back to scarcity and the Reserve List* -- limited supply means when they run lots of events, the prices on cards goes bonkers, which means no one buys from them, which makes it unattractive to run events, and we end up with bad prices and a bad tournament scene.


* = Please note I realize it's going nowhere; I'm an advocate for new printings that make it obsolete. Not trying to sidetrack the thread.

[Barook]

Is there any data correlating sales on Legacy staples, attendance, and price increases? I wonder if the Legacy spikes in the last two years led to a decrease in sales. One imagines they would have, right? In other words, the whole problem goes back to scarcity and the Reserve List* -- limited supply means when they run lots of events, the prices on cards goes bonkers, which means no one buys from them, which makes it unattractive to run events, and we end up with bad prices and a bad tournament scene.

* = Please note I realize it's going nowhere; I'm an advocate for new printings that make it obsolete. Not trying to sidetrack the thread.
Considering the amounts of "investors" that jumped into market to corner every single card, no matter how stupid it might be, it isn't hard to imagine that their original exploitation scheme doesn't work out anymore.

[maharis]

Is there any data correlating sales on Legacy staples, attendance, and price increases? I wonder if the Legacy spikes in the last two years led to a decrease in sales. One imagines they would have, right? In other words, the whole problem goes back to scarcity and the Reserve List* -- limited supply means when they run lots of events, the prices on cards goes bonkers, which means no one buys from them, which makes it unattractive to run events, and we end up with bad prices and a bad tournament scene.


* = Please note I realize it's going nowhere; I'm an advocate for new printings that make it obsolete. Not trying to sidetrack the thread.

Unfortunately, we can't get any sales data.

Determining how spikes affect sales is touchy stuff. Right now a USea on SCG is $300. If that was $150 tomorrow, the question is whether or not people think "awesome, now I can get into Legacy" or "damn, these aren't holding their value anymore, Legacy must be dead." Or if EDH players start picking them up, I guess.

The data we do have, on attendance, indicates this:

-Modern is the most popular format by far. Its Opens and Classics are the best-attended.

-Modern and Legacy players overlap more than Modern and Standard players. The biggest Classic of the year -- 400 people! -- was after the Worcester Legacy open.

-Legacy classics tend to exceed Standard when they are held after a Modern open. When Modern classics are offered, Legacy attendance suffers -- indicating some cannibalism.

-However, total Classic registrations are higher after a Standard classic, when the formats are Modern and Legacy. That suggests that more people come specifically for the Modern or Legacy Classics than for the Standard classics.

Therefore, we can only assume that Standard-related card sales matter more to SCG's internal success measures than registrations/attendance. Which makes a lot of SCG's arguments disingenuous. I can't imagine they would get that many more Standard attendees to fill in the gap for their Modern/Legacy opens just because scrubs can sign up to play another tournament the next day. And Modern players seem to have no problem playing Legacy on day 2 as the Legacy Classics steadily increased over the second half of the year (probably thanks to reprints and Eldrazi).

But, this is their gambit: That they can push Standard so hard that it will support itself, and they can afford to alienate the kinds of customers who would buy their high-ticket items.

[Beatusnox]

I called this when they took away the two open weekends for the GP style events. Given data that has been shared here, attendance has been up for legacy. Given attendance being up, it would indicate other issues such as singles sales being a factor. Given that a major theory of the community is that SCG arbitrarily increases prices on some staples, it would seem the bottom finally fell out of it. Also given the history of insider information leading to market manipulation I have had 0 trust in this company for a long time.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

I think with standard at least the factors of the standard players budget being smaller so they are less willing to travel far for an event, plus the fact that any given weekend unless the SCG is in your backyard, there is a decent chance you get a somewhat major standard event closer to you too play in. There's obviously more standard players, but also more events.

[dragonwisdom]

Honestly, so many of my earlier legacy cards have increased in value enough for me to take a 50% haircut and still probably come out ahead. But that's besides the point; my favorite legacy tournaments are still the weekly ones with the same 10-12 people group that fires off every week. Sure, the lack of these scg classics will probably stifle the speed deck innovation, but the format itself changes at a glacial rate anyways. Overall, I do hope that more events like eternal weekend and eternal extravaganza get more people as legacy prices (hopefully) return to a more reasonable range.

As for the reserved list, the primary culprits are still the dual lands. Since wizards does work quite closely with card stores and doesn't want to disrupt their investments too much, I could potentially see a compromise to essentially give these large box stores copies of newly printed dual lands to offset their losses. This would obviously be detrimental to smaller stores and collectors without direct connections to wizards, but Hasbro stands to profit from tapping into a new market with product that will probably have very wide appeal (especially if it is released as an eternal masters set once or twice a year rather than every two years).

As for litigation such a reprinting would cause, Hasbro certainly has a group of high priced lawyers on retainer. I'm sure they will be able to either block any smaller suits before going to court or come to card (rather than cash) settlements. Larger box stores will already have been appeased with essentially free cash (valuable cards they can sell). Sure, it leaves the door open for some sort of class action suit with long term collectors and smaller stores; however if such a case were to really come about, I personally feel that Hasbro has a pretty good shot to win, especially when they are basically creating a whole new line of product that will require minimal R&D and some new art (which most artists would be scrambling to do).

Yes, I have been trying to push a trade-in policy. Where you could trade in your revised tundra for 12 copies with hologram and serial number. Then you the player or store owner can flood the market with copies and make money off your collection. Then Wizards could charge a small fee for the service. They make money. They would destroy the original. Collectors would benefit with less copies and finally everyone benefits when Legacy grows again. You could rinse and repeat. The would not exactly destroy the reserved list. It would be a trade in and not a mass reprinting in a set.

[Darkenslight]

Yes, I have been trying to push a trade-in policy. Where you could trade in your revised tundra for 12 copies with hologram and serial number. Then you the player or store owner can flood the market with copies and make money off your collection. Then Wizards could charge a small fee for the service. They make money. They would destroy the original. Collectors would benefit with less copies and finally everyone benefits when Legacy grows again. You could rinse and repeat. The would not exactly destroy the reserved list. It would be a trade in and not a mass reprinting in a set.

That would definitely be something...but Wizards are extremely unlikely to do it. The people I'd contact are MaRo and others high up in Magic's dev team, as well as large-scale retailers, to gauge their responses.

[Lemnear]

Yes, I have been trying to push a trade-in policy. Where you could trade in your revised tundra for 12 copies with hologram and serial number. Then you the player or store owner can flood the market with copies and make money off your collection. Then Wizards could charge a small fee for the service. They make money. They would destroy the original. Collectors would benefit with less copies and finally everyone benefits when Legacy grows again. You could rinse and repeat. The would not exactly destroy the reserved list. It would be a trade in and not a mass reprinting in a set.

What you suggest IS a mass reprinting except the cards do not end up in packs.

[Dice_Box]

Yes, I have been trying to push a trade-in policy. Where you could trade in your revised tundra for 12 copies with hologram and serial number. Then you the player or store owner can flood the market with copies and make money off your collection. Then Wizards could charge a small fee for the service. They make money. They would destroy the original. Collectors would benefit with less copies and finally everyone benefits when Legacy grows again. You could rinse and repeat. The would not exactly destroy the reserved list. It would be a trade in and not a mass reprinting in a set.
That's really difficult to do right. I don't see a world where suddenly the amount of U Sea goes up by a factor of 12 and holds even a 12th of its value. There is a demand for the cards yes, but not that much of a demand.

The other issue is that you put the pressure on the player to become a store. I don't sell cards, I am not a salesman. But if I suddenly have 2 complete sets of U Sea to offload I can do what, try and offload it for my new market price or sell it to a store as 60% of market share? Feels like a lose lose to me financially.

Now that's not to say I am against the idea of removing the blasted list, I want it gone. My issue though is every time someone suggests this idea as the answer I see more problems then solutions. The issue most at hand though, Wizards is not Konami and I don't see Wizards getting away with a Konami style reprint schedule.

[Darkenslight]

That's really difficult to do right. I don't see a world where suddenly the amount of U Sea goes up by a factor of 12 and holds even a 12th of its value. There is a demand for the cards yes, but not that much of a demand.

The other issue is that you put the pressure on the player to become a store. I don't sell cards, I am not a salesman. But if I suddenly have 2 complete sets of U Sea to offload I can do what, try and offload it for my new market price or sell it to a store as 60% of market share? Feels like a lose lose to me financially.

Now that's not to say I am against the idea of removing the blasted list, I want it gone. My issue though is every time someone suggests this idea as the answer I see more problems then solutions. The issue most at hand though, Wizards is not Konami and I don't see Wizards getting away with a Konami style reprint schedule.

Would the equation change if it was closer to a 2-to-1 ratio, like you get a playset of the newer version with the exchnage of a single ABUR version?

[Lemnear]

Would the equation change if it was closer to a 2-to-1 ratio, like you get a playset of the newer version with the exchnage of a single ABUR version?

Because ABUR duals are all worth the same in any condition... /s

You can bet that people would buy every torn, burned and waterdamage piece to trade them while the people with cards in good condition would feel screwed regardless.

Its also STILL violating the reprint policy. There is also a zero change that wizards starts a logistic center for that nonsense for incoming duals and sending out new ones. That idea is totally ridiculous.

Expire the RL promise and reprint Duals or let Legacy die as obviously intended.

[bruizar]

Legacy only dies if no one plays. The cards are in circulation, so there will always be legacy just like there still is vintage.

[mistercakes]

just wondering, has anyone made a list of all the cards in the reserve list that actually have an impact on legacy? i know there's a bunch, but would like to see on a list. (if it's not done already i'll do it, but wanted to check here first)

[Rocco111]

just wondering, has anyone made a list of all the cards in the reserve list that actually have an impact on legacy? i know there's a bunch, but would like to see on a list. (if it's not done already i'll do it, but wanted to check here first)

You are aware that the moment someone posts it here, you will see a massive buyout on TCG and all other stores, right?

[Lemnear]

Legacy only dies if no one plays. The cards are in circulation, so there will always be legacy just like there still is vintage.

Vintage? Like the ~14 people side event like during the last GP? There is no real card circulation anymore, because no one with a sane mind is able to buy those cards. They end up in some collections or auctions and thats it. There is no paper format anymore.


just wondering, has anyone made a list of all the cards in the reserve list that actually have an impact on legacy? i know there's a bunch, but would like to see on a list. (if it's not done already i'll do it, but wanted to check here first)

- Duals
- Cradle
- LED
- Intuition
- City of Traitors

The end

[Dice_Box]

You are aware that the moment someone posts it here, you will see a massive buyout on TCG and all other stores, right?
It's known info. I mean as a entrenched Legacy player I can list off a few without looking. Going though the whole list though? Not worth the time. The shit that comes to mind:

Duals
Moat
Abyss
Chains
Tabernacle
LED
Shallow Grave
Candelabra
Transmute Artifact (Kind of played.)
Cradle
City of Traitors
City of Solitude
Aluren
Humility
Intuition
Mox Diamond
Metalworker
Grim Monolith


- Duals
- Cradle
- LED

The end
Some of us like to play Stax, MUD and Lands.

[CptHaddock]

You are aware that the moment someone posts it here, you will see a massive buyout on TCG and all other stores, right?

Realistically how many of these cards besides the duals ofc actually see a good amount of play? Like all the people that bought out Serra's Sanctum. You only need 1 for EDH and enchantress is the only deck that will potentially play it as a 4 off. Who's actually buying Sanctums are $100+ a piece? It looks like more of the staples that spiked in price over the last couple of months where everybody was freaking out are dipping pretty hard in price.

[Varal]

Realistically how many of these cards besides the duals ofc actually see a good amount of play? Like all the people that bought out Serra's Sanctum. You only need 1 for EDH and enchantress is the only deck that will potentially play it as a 4 off. Who's actually buying Sanctums are $100+ a piece? It looks like more of the staples that spiked in price over the last couple of months where everybody was freaking out are dipping pretty hard in price.

It depends where you draw the line but

City of Traitors
Gaea's Cradle
Lion's Eye Diamond
Mox Diamond
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Null Rod
Moat
Firestorm

see plays in archetypes with a significant portion of metagame, you can add Aluren and Mud decks to the often played if you feel like it.

Other less played cards not mentioned:
Helm of Obedience
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Nether Void
Cursed Scroll
Dream Halls
Recurring Nightmare

those are usually played in decks that lacks some competitiveness

There's also really fringe stuff like

Drop of Honey
Academy Rector
Guardian Beast

that see play but probably shouldn't be an archetype.

[BenBleiweiss]

Yes, I have been trying to push a trade-in policy. Where you could trade in your revised tundra for 12 copies with hologram and serial number. Then you the player or store owner can flood the market with copies and make money off your collection. Then Wizards could charge a small fee for the service. They make money. They would destroy the original. Collectors would benefit with less copies and finally everyone benefits when Legacy grows again. You could rinse and repeat. The would not exactly destroy the reserved list. It would be a trade in and not a mass reprinting in a set.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=18824

This was my solution #7 back from years ago. I still think that this is the best solution to getting a higher supply of reserve list cards out there, without causing backlash from collectors.

[Dice_Box]

As I said above, I don't see this as the answer. But if Wizards made that offer to me as a way to solve the issue I would not knock it back.

[Fox]

Other less played cards not mentioned:
Helm of Obedience
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Nether Void
Cursed Scroll
Dream Halls
Recurring Nightmare

those are usually played in decks that lacks some competitiveness

There's also really fringe stuff like

Drop of Honey
Academy Rector
Guardian Beast

that see play but probably shouldn't be an archetype.
Come now, we can't mention Dreadnought without Illusionary Mask. I'd also add Eureka to the list, Dystopia (not entirely uncommon in something like BUG Delver SB, the justification I've heard is to catch up with Shardless?), Undiscovered Paradise, Scorched Ruins (sees experimental use in eldrazi lists, usually vintage though), Meditate, Volrath's Stronghold (1x in Aluren), and Replenish. You can certainly make cases for the potential of play for some of the lands on there as well (i.e. it's not inconceivable that DnT or soldier stompy might want say a Kjeldoran Outpost).

[bruizar]

Vintage? Like the ~14 people side event like during the last GP? There is no real card circulation anymore, because no one with a sane mind is able to buy those cards. They end up in some collections or auctions and thats it. There is no paper format anymore.

94 @ bom

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I am, and we as a company, would still love to see the Reserve List abolished. Our position on this has not changed.
I apologize in advance for my bad English, I'm Italian.
It is to be appreciated that you write on the forum to respond to the players. I have a question: why people like you or company like yours are not influential enough to propose a way to solve the problem of the Reserved List? Starcitygames is famous worldwide and it's not the only company who don't want the Reserved List! Is it really that hard to get together and voicing our opinions?
I am available for any attempt, proposal and action to solve the problem of the Reserved List. I invite anyone to organize and act in cooperation with big companies like Starcitygames. Legacy is a great format, it does not deserve a sad and unjust end!

[rlesko]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=18824

This was my solution #7 back from years ago. I still think that this is the best solution to getting a higher supply of reserve list cards out there, without causing backlash from collectors.

" Right now The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is pushing $300 making it prohibitive for someone to play the optimal build of 43-Lands"

Best quote from the article.

[Mr Miagi]

" Right now The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is pushing $300 making it prohibitive for someone to play the optimal build of 43-Lands"

Best quote from the article.

Haha :laugh: yes I noticed it as well but was to lazy to quote. Crazy magics

[CptHaddock]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=18824

This was my solution #7 back from years ago. I still think that this is the best solution to getting a higher supply of reserve list cards out there, without causing backlash from collectors.

I'm sure the answer hasn't changed but would you ever consider doing an update to this series? Certainly a lot has changed between 2010 and now.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm sure the answer hasn't changed but would you ever consider doing an update to this series? Certainly a lot has changed between 2010 and now.

Or just a better explanation for what's going on with the Tour? Are we even on the right track with our bitching?

[CptHaddock]

Or just a better explanation for what's going on with the Tour? Are we even on the right track with our bitching?

Yeah seriously, who got us off topic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gSQg1i_q2g

[H]

I'm pretty sure we already figured it out and I really doubt Ben would be apt to discuss their business strategy and P&L statements with us, even if he actually wanted to.

[BenBleiweiss]

I'm sure the answer hasn't changed but would you ever consider doing an update to this series? Certainly a lot has changed between 2010 and now.

I have a half-written update to this article, but Wizards has made it clear that for the time being, they aren't even allowed to discuss the Reserve List, much less discuss ABOUT the Reserve List.