Grixis CounterBurn - Not your Dad's Grixis Delver

[tescrin]

Most of this is a hacked version of what I typed as an [scd] discussion of Vial Smasher the Fierce

I've been thinking that this guy fits very well in the Grixis shell between Angler and Force of Will being natural inclusions. While most of the time you'll just shock your opponent, the ability to turn Force of Will into a Lightning Axe should be GG I imagine.

Card in the link since I don't know how to link cards not in the database:
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoi...er-the-fierce/

Add in the possibility to Fireblast or Pyrokinesis if you want to be all-in and you have a card that requires no build-around since it's already been done for you. Just casting flash-dudes on your opp's turn makes this guy pretty nasty. Clique your opp after dropping this guy on their draw step? Free bolt to the face.

I just don't see why someone who turns Force of Will into a win condition isn't on the radar. someone who says "if you untap with Gurmag Angler in hand; you deal 7 damage for
1 mana." The amount of damage is ridiculous; and even a free shock off of casting a YP seems fine. Casting a Kolaghan's Command with this guy out turns it into a 5 damage spell that does something else. Putting it into Burn makes Fireblast a 10 damage spell. Grixis "Counter-Burn" could be a thing maybe.

Example List:
-17, [4 blue]-
4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Angler
2 Clique
3 VStF
2 Snapcaster Mage

-27, [18 blue]
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Dimir Charm (or another blue spell)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fireblast
2 Kolaghan's Command

-17- [0 wastelands]
8 Fetchlands
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Badlands

Choices:
* KCommand - CA is nice, artifact destruction is good to have, and with VStF it can hit for 5.
* Fireblast - While not *tons* better than Chain Lightning normally; being able to cast it T2 or T3 on your Opp's turn after dropping VStF means it hits for 10; 6 of it essentially uncounterable
* Force of Will - While you aren't likely questioning Force; it happens to be a Lightning Axe if you pass the turn with VStF; even forcing Abrupt Decay could yield you a win.
* Angler - Like the above; hitting for 7 is probably worth running a pretty ok card. Could instead be Tombstalker given we have more black mana than typical Grixis
* No-Wasteland - Unfortunately, Fireblast precludes us having enough mountains. This means we can't run 4 wastes. Given our objective is to win faster than normal; I think going for the "kill you dead" plan makes more sense.
* Charm - I like having good combo game; and having the ability to kill most creatures, upping the blue count, and also add combo-game is good. This is by far the weakest choice in the deck
* SCM - Just for Bolts and Flash. Safe to change out IMO
* Clique - Flash is great with VStF, and just like Charm it serves the dual-purpose of staving off combo for a turn.
* Daze - Mostly because I like a good combo game and free counters. It's less synergistic than normal here; but Daze is important for helping you get your Delve-Beater out.


Options:
* Young Pyro would be fine in here, but not maximized. Not opposed to trying it.
* Pyrokinesis - I think this is too dangerous to run in the main; but may be worth it
* TNN could be ok; but he is a bit slow. I think I'd rather have multi-faceted cards
* Moar bern - After getting screwed by the DNC, I could see why you'd want this; feel free to test it out!
* Swiftspear/Guide - maybe? I'd probably swap a set of these in for SCM and Clique.



Since VStF isn't out; i haven't tested him yet; I think this thread will be my "results grounds" as I find/show issues with the deck.
Dicsucc


EDIT:
An aggregate of Ideas people have brought up:
* Misdirection or Unmask
* Bedlam Reveler
* Bonfire of the Damned or Temporal Mastery
* Trap cards


Keep 'em coming, maybe the deck has a whole bunch of editing to do :D

[Dice_Box]

Here's a dumb idea, what do you think of something like Bonfire of the Damned.

[Claymore]

Shit, how about Temporal Mastery and dome for 7 for 1U.

Misdirection for 5 seems pretty strong too, and can protect the Vial smasher from Abrupt Decay. Unmask could be good but with so many exile effects I think the deck would draw low on cards in hand quickly.

Bedlam Reveller seems a huge kill spell but I don't know if the deck can support it with all the Delve from Gurmag and arguably Tasigur.

I imagine there could be a few trap cards Ravenous Trap, Ricochet Trap that are borderline playable or at least sideboard, but the problem gets into being too build around.

Summoning Trap from the board against Chalice decks would be almost perfect if you didn't have to cast a creature into a Chalice first.

[tescrin]

There are certainly a lot of cards here to start considering. My initial thoughts were just "use stuff people already use" but I could see sideboard cards or a 1-2 of here and there of cards that happen to benefit VStF. It may be best to whittle away just the mechanics that allow it as we explore this space.

Miracles, Exile-to-cast cards, Delve and similar "reduce cost" cards, Affinity Golems (lol)

Keep in mind; we want to definitely focus on Legacy-playables that happen to be good with him.
But, I could definitely see doing the old Sneak-Show thing of putting a Misdirection in the main and potentially finding sideboard cards that fill a role while happening to be exploitable. Bonfire being a good example of a card with potential since as a Miracle it'd be worth 5-damage for 3 mana, before considering the Pyroclasm and Shock effect it already has. Not sure if you can jam it in the main; but I'm open minded

What are people's thoughts on Gurmag vs. Tombstalker? Any Grixis Veterans have thoughts on that? Maybe I'll bug them in that thread if they don't find this one.

[RobNC]

Is the blue really necessary? What about a straight BR burn deck, maxxing out on Fireblast and Pyrokinesis? Also gives you more mountains to sac to Fireblast.

[tescrin]

IMO blue is the reason this guy is playable. Force of Will being a lightning axe is a good time. The brewing here is purposely because Force and Gurmag are an established way to run a Grixis deck already. I'm attempting not to get *too* cute, as I doubt it'll work; but I think straight burn wants a faster kill than this guy will generally allow against combo. Counterburn gets a turn or two extra by virtue of having a bunch of interaction.

Doesn't hurt that Bolt Snap Bolt is a proven Modern strat; if not also having some game in Legacy

EDIT: which is not to say it's impossible to brew with VStF, but the point of this thread is Grixis; so I'd encourage you to attempt to start a dialog with more burn-oriented players in another thread if you want to cut the blue. [really not trying to be a dick]

[RobNC]

I wasn't suggesting Grixis is a bad way to go, I was just curious. Blue obviously gives you ways to protect yourself and VSTF.

[tescrin]

Goldfishing (now that my cards are here) has revealed the obvious issue of too many 3-drops, and possibly land issues.

Current thoughts are something like:
- 2 Kolaghan's Command
- 2 Vendilion Clique
- 1 Dimir Charm
+ 1 Tropical Island (Decay Support)
+ 2 Abrupt Decay
+ 2 Spell Pierce

This lowers the curve a bit, adds a land to deal with the complex mana requirements, and adopts some of the BURG Delver qualities. We're mostly swapping their 3rd Decay, 3rd Pierce, and 4th waste for Fireblasts, their TNNs and Leovald for VStF, and their 3 wastes for Badlands to support the FBs at the moment.

Quick Notes:
* I believe that the lack of wasteland can be made up for by generally being a turn faster
* Goldfishing did have the magical 10-dmg fireblast with a counter-protected VStF come up a couple times
* Also noticed the interaction with Gurmag and Fireblast can be used against non-white as early as T2 if you want to go deep (2x Fetch, 2x Land, 2x Mana tapped before sac'ing, 1x Fireblast) allowing you to potentially kill Lands, for instance, on T5 without any more interaction (19 damage) since they can't deal with Angler very well. With Delver and a natural Flip, you could kill them T4 with several damage to spare!

I think going forward, the ability to spit out an Angler on T2 could prove to be the second build-around direction, possibly getting a 3rd Angler, 4th Fireblast, and possibly other innovations. Not only do these add to the VStF side-plan, but they seem plausible as a way to really put the screws to combo or Lands/Eldrazi early enough in the game that you may just close it out before it becomes a game. That T2 interaction above can also leave you with a DRS or Delver on the board, which is pretty trick.

It's debatable whether or not to just go for more Burn instead of Decays/Pierces, but small corrections will hopefully hone us into the right direction.

[tescrin]

Took a hiatus until last week and ran something like:

4 Delver
4 DRS
3 Vial Smasher
2 Gurmag
2 Snapcaster
{?}

4 Bolt
3 Blast
4 Force
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Daze
2 Dismember
2 Spierce?
2 Decay
{?}

19 lands ? (3 Badlands, 2 Trops, 3 USea, 3 Volcanic, 8 fetch{?})

Went pretty ok, 1-1-1

Draw with Miracles (with the win in reach but I screwed up flipping a delver on a goofed brainstorm since I'm a bit rusty)
G1 - Reads Vial Smasher, kills the first one. Second one spells doom
G2 - Slow lockout..
G3 - Double-Blood Moon (I got the first one..) Double-Terminus (kills a flipped delver, then gets a DRS + Angler off a top deck..) grinds us to a hault, but he can't win either and is at 5hp. I slowly accrue burn cards to go for it, but get timed out. This makes me kinda want a singleton Island..

Win v Elves
G1 - We both are super slow. He has a large board but Vial Smasher is slowly doing work and he's worried about Lava-Axe Forces finishing him off. Eventually they do.
G2 - He goes off T3ish with 3 dudes.
G3 - Counter his stuff. He does a desperation Hoof to hold off Angler. Get him with Vial burn, Delver, and DRS IIRC. I think I was sitting on Force to get him too.

Loss v Infect
G1 - He lets Smasher resolve and regrets it later in the game. Fireblast for 6 (he countered it) and a Force of Will is enough to seal the deal with DRS activations.
G2 - He hits me a few times and then combos for some amount. don't remember a lot here. I goof real bad this game thinking I mistakenly sided in Pithing Needle, shuffle it away with BS, and I think I die to an Inkmoth Nexus. Well done!
G3 - Close game. Had I left a flipped delver back to block I'd be safe. Long story short, I keep picking off his guys and have Vial, double delver, DRS. As he combos I need a Force, a Daze, a Bolt, or simliar and he'd be dead. BS finds none and I'm gone. If I hadn't been greedy I'd have had it.

Vial was brutal in all matches; probably doing 40 damage all night (3+ Force (15+), 2+ Fireblast (16+), lots of little spells and a few swings) 3 Fireblast is probably too many as I had a case or two where I couldn't get two mountains. Almost got to get 7 from Angler but couldn't get a card to the grave before Smasher died that game.

Currently I think dropping a Fireblast and a BadLands for 2x Shriekmaw would be good. CA potential, Smasher-synergy, Miracles assistance, more control on the board since FB won't usually be used for Dudes; between Dismembers, gurmags, and Shrieks will have good Eldrazi coverage if they show up I think.

Pyroclasm in the board may be good given that I saw 3 elves players, 1-2 infect players, etc.. and it was only an 8 or 10 person local.


Next lists' synergies will thusly look like (in order of best to worst):
4 Force of Will
2 Angler
2 Shriekmaw
2 Dismember (3 for <3 mana is reasonable)
2 Fireblast


3 VSmashers felt good. Only ran into two once and the first got picked off. They were definitely pulling their weight in scenarios where YP would be garbage (Elves especially, debatably with Miracles given that the damage can just occur on their turn if set up well.)

Also, thinking ahead; if the deck becomes inbred enough Eidolon of the Great Revel would be a possible inclusion.

Apologies it took me months to actually play legacy again lol

[contra]

Hey tescrin,

Really like the brew. Have you considered:

Bedlam Reveler
Misdirection
Submerge

I think you're right in dropping Dimir Charm and Kolaghan's Command from the main, but maybe in the side (do you have one of those>?>)

I think this deck has a lot of potential in imitating a UR delver list splashing black for vial smasher and angler (i.e. more gitaxian probe and less creatures)