View Full Version : Paradoxical Paladin
Dice_Box
11-23-2016, 10:20 AM
So tonight one of the modern guys played this pile, mostly filled with what he had on hand, not tuned at all. Went 3-1.
Creatures
4 Puresteel Paladin
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Laboratory Mainac
Spells
4 Serum Visions
3 Slight of Hand
2 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Paradoxical Outcome
Enchantments
2 Jeskai Ascendancy
Artifacts (Non Equipment)
4 Mox Opal
3 Aetherflux Reservoir
Artifacts (Equipment)
2 Bone Saw
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Kite Shield
4 Spidersilk Net
Lands
17 Lands.
Its fucking real. I mean it. It feels like a storm deck that just goes crazy. It was fantastic to watch. Anyway. I notices a few things.
Mana was often an issue.
He lacked meaningful interaction
He had a crowd.
I want to build on this, I think it has a shot at being real. Not real good, but real. So my plan is this.
Cut Ascendancy for another Slight of Hand and Mentor
Add a playset of Paradise Mantle
Look at adding Spirit Guides.
The first two are easy, the second two not so much. Anyway. Who wants to dig into this. It's fun, I promise.
Edit:
Update.
Artifact (20)
2x Aetherflux Reservoir
4x Cathar's Shield
2x Kite Shield
4x Mox Opal
4x Paradise Mantle
4x Spidersilk Net
Land (17)
2x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
3x Plains
2x Scalding Tarn
Creature (9)
1x Laboratory Maniac
4x Monastery Mentor
4x Puresteel Paladin
Instant (6)
4x Paradoxical Outcome
2x Retract
Sorcery (8)
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
:laugh:
This looks horrible and hilarious. Paradise Mantle is more certainly better than Bone Saw though.
I think you are right on cutting the Ascendancy, as this lets you get down to two colors, which I would think would help the mana situation.
Dice_Box
11-23-2016, 11:48 AM
Its evil with Mentor. There was a game he dropped mentor, made four tokens. Untapped, Paradox, made ten tokens, overran a Wurmcoil. It is just sweet. I do not know if this will ever be a great deck, but it is able to do the most busted shit.
I have been looking into other lists, it looks like Retract might be one of the cards to put in here. One mana single sided Recall. Looks like it will fit the bill. The issue is always Mana, so if you can get a slightly cheaper card, I think its a go. I have also seen Mass Hysteria used. While it is cute to use it, Mentor and Mantle, I do not think it is worth playing Red for Haste. I might be wrong, but I think you can make this deck hum on a two colour Base.
Oh, and Reservoir... :) . What a fucking card that is. I saw it used against Bant Eldrazi. The player found it late into his combo, played it and dropped two artifacts gaining 21 life. Fuck.
Ace/Homebrew
11-23-2016, 02:06 PM
This is something that has just been waiting for a printing to push it into 'real deal' territory. Or possibly for someone to optimize the list.
Here's some help. :laugh:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19417&iddeck=147718
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16627&iddeck=124483
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14766&iddeck=109381
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13657&iddeck=100326
Thoughts from comparing those lists with yours:
- Looks like Glimmervoid could help if you stick with 3 colors.
- Grapeshot is a win condition that avoids the combat step.
- Spellskite protects Paladin and absorbs early attacks.
- Noxious Revival!
Dice_Box
11-23-2016, 11:32 PM
I am going to try and see what a two colour only build feels like. This is a pet project, so I am not going to spend 50 bucks on a card if I can dodge it, but the idea is sound.
Grapeshot is a good idea, but I am hoping to stay out of red. Right now, in preliminary testing, I have 3 ways (Lab and Aetherflux) to kill without combat steps are available. The issue is that both are easy to answer. A Storm card will likely find a home here in the future.
Spellskite is not something I thought of. I like it.
No space right now for Noxious, I think the build is already very low on equipment, so I am not sure what to do with that yet.
jdmdave
11-24-2016, 11:13 AM
I've been working on this deck as a side project for a few months. 4-1ed a few leagues, but never quite got there. Gaveleer gives you a surprisingly strong plan B.
Creatures
4 Puresteel Paladin
3 Goblin Gaveleer (I'm not joking)
4 Mox Opal
4 Retract
2 Paradoxical Outcome
3 Sigarda's Aid (Incredible)
8 Shields
4 Spidersilk
3 Bonesaw
4 Paradise Mantle
1 Grapeshot
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Flooded Strand
4 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
2 UW Fastland
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Island
CaptainTwiddle
11-25-2016, 11:33 AM
The Puresteel decks have certainly gained some tech. There seem to be lots of different ways to go about building this. After throwing together a rough list based on those above, I started to consider the following cards:
Gitaxian Probe - This card is busted and heavily played in numerous decks for that reason. Being a free cantrip is solid and fits with the pseudo-storm plan, but the information it provides is invaluable; knowing if your opponent is holding a removal spell for your Paladin can be all the difference.
Twisted Image - It's another cantrip, it can kill Spellskite, and it has other niche uses; most notably, it can serve as a win condition. I found myself having a Paladin equipped with multiple shields and being something in the realm of 2/15; flip that and your opponent is likely dead.
Accorder's Shield - It's the best shield. Giving your creature vigilance allows you to chip in for damage and still get mana from tapping them with Paradise Mantle. If nothing else, it allows you to actually attack, since the deck is so creature light, you can't afford to tap your creatures on a non-combo turn (unless you've made some monk tokens with Monastery Mentor). EDIT* - Accorder's Shield is functionally identical to Cathar's Shield. I believe the deck should be running full sets of each. Kite Shield has the same costs, but doesn't provide vigilance. I don't think you need to run any more than 16 0-cost equipment, but if you did, I think Kite Shield is next in line, though I see a number of builds running Bone Saw. I feel the saw is just too weak. If you're going to run it, you need to run 4 so you have the last resort of stacking them on a single creature to make it large enough to compete. I much prefer the line of playing the defensive shields and running a single Twisted Image.
CaptainTwiddle
11-25-2016, 01:34 PM
Here's the list I've been tinkering with.
Paradoxical Paladin
CREATURES
4 Puresteel Paladin
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Laboratory Maniac
SPELLS
4 Accorder's Shield
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
2 Cathar's Shield
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Kite Shield
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
2 Paradoxical Outcome
3 Retract
1 Sigarda's Aid
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Spidersilk Net
1 Twisted Image
LAND
1 Island
2 Plains
1 Adarkar Wastes
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glimmervoid
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Seachrome Coast
The biggest issue I have with the deck is either running out of cards in hand (particularly if my Paladin gets killed) or not having enough mana at crucial points. Paradoxical Outcome resolving feels like it almost ensures a win, but getting 4 mana can be difficult. There's an awkward tension when you're able to play a Paladin on turn 2 and have a few 0 cost equipment in hand - you can play them right away to draw cards or you can hold them until the following turn so you have untapped lands. That's a scenario where having Sigarda's Aid on turn 1 is really helpful. That said, Sigarda's Aid is a really high variance card. It's great early and near worthless mid combo.
While I love both Laboratory Maniac and Aetherflux Reservoir, I wonder if having all of these combos in the same deck is really worthwhile. Each combo has its own pros/cons, so I'm not sure what I'd remove first, if anything.
Being able to give your creatures haste would be really helpful. If you can give your whole team haste, Monastery Mentor becomes incredibly lethal. Haste, even on an individual creature, can really help with mana issues, as it allows you to use Paradise Mantle much more effectively. Splashing red for Mass Hysteria is an option that is relatively low investment. Alternatively, running a copy or two of Lightning Greeves could work, trading the raw power of giving your whole team haste for adding another equipment to the list, which implies additional card draw.
Dice_Box
11-25-2016, 01:46 PM
I have seen Repeal suggested as a Cantrip. Its one Blue, draw a card if you have any of your Equipment on the table, free if you have a Mox and you can interact with other problematic cards with it too.
I have been fishing with some lists, not sure 16 mana is right. I am on 15. I am also moving the Maniac to the side. His primary use in my eyes is getting around the card Worship. Worship is not really a main deck card and the space is useful for other things.
Goblin Gaveleer is cute, I like it. With Sigarda's Aid I can see some busted things happening. I do not know if I would run one without the other though.
I am thinking that Mass Hysteria might be worth splashing for. Also then Wear//Tear becomes a sideboard option and all I think it would take is a single Shock. This is something I am going to look at. I am also looking at my sideboard options right now. One of the things I like is that this deck has a larger amount of cute cards you can add them most other decks do. One of the dangers is this deck has cute cards...
I have seen Ornithopter suggested because it can be used as a makeshift turn one Bird with Mantle. I think it is more handy to block with, but in testing it seems cute but otherwise ineffective at anything we really require.
CaptainTwiddle
11-25-2016, 02:29 PM
Dice_Box, you make some solid points. One thing that I'm loving about this list is that there are a lot of unique sideboard options that serve dual purposes in the context of this deck. I think I'm going to try the red splash for Mass Hysteria, which would then put some Wear/Tear in my sideboard. You mention Repeal as a bounce spell that also functions as a cantrip; while I think that's really awesome, I think it's more of a sideboard card. With that in mind, I saw Echoing Truth in one of the boards from the lists linked above. That seems sweet as an answer to problematic permanents/tokens, as well as a way to bounce multiple pieces of your own equipment for the rebuy on card draw.
JPoJohnson
11-25-2016, 04:00 PM
If you want to see a lot of the discussion that has taken place on this, it's referred to as "Modern Cheerios" over on MTGSalvation. Paradoxical Outcome came out after I gave up on the deck. That may have been one of the things it needed to overcome some inconsistency issues.
CaptainTwiddle
11-25-2016, 06:34 PM
I've been jamming games on Xmage since posting my prior list. I've made some tweaks and have come to the following list. It feels like it's getting close.
Paradoxical Paladin
CREATURES
4 Puresteel Paladin
3 Monastery Mentor
SPELLS
4 Accorder's Shield
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Lightning Greeves
2 Mass Hysteria
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
1 Paradoxical Outcome
3 Retract
1 Sigarda's Aid
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Spidersilk Net
1 Twisted Image
LAND
1 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mana Confluence
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Seachrome Coast
Sideboard (preliminary build)
2 Dispatch
1 Echoing Truth
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Repeal
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sigarda's Aid
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Twisted Image
1 Wear // Tear
1 Laboratory Maniac
The red splash for Mass Hysteria feels completely correct. It's not hard to get the mana with the one fetchable shockland, Mana Confluence, Paradise Mantle, and Mox Opals. Depending what you're playing against, you generally don't want to play Mass Hysteria until right before you attack or need to use mana from your Paradise Mantle-equipped creatures. The single Lightning Greeves is actually better for protecting your combo creatures from removal than anything else. I could see Swiftfoot Boots being used instead, as hexproof is better than shroud and you Paladin negates the equip cost much of the time.
I've moved the Laboratory Maniac to the sideboard, as a way to win when combat isn't an option. Aetherflux Reservoir remains in the list, as it has show itself to be useful against aggro by just being able to gain enough life to buy an extra turn. I trimmed Paradoxical Outcome down to a single copy, simply because of its expensive mana cost. Most of the time, Retract is just better. While Outcome "draws all the cards" for 4 mana, Retract "draws enough cards" for only a single mana.
I have seen at least one version of the deck running Riddlesmith, which seems interesting. I think it seems better if Lab Maniac is your primary win condition. You could possibly run Riddlesmith over Monastery Mentor (as a budget option, if nothing else). It's worth noting that all/most of the creatures this deck wants are humans, so Cavern of Souls could be considered.
CaptainTwiddle
11-30-2016, 10:20 PM
I've become perhaps a little too fond of the archetype. After trying numerous tweaks, I've finally found a maindeck configuration that I'm really happy with:
Paradoxical Paladin
CREATURES
4 Puresteel Paladin
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Riddlesmith
SPELLS
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Grapeshot
2 Mass Hysteria
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
1 Paradoxical Outcome
3 Retract
4 Serum Visions
1 Sigarda's Aid
4 Spidersilk Net
1 Twisted Image
LAND
1 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mana Confluence
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Seachrome Coast
Compared to my prior list (post immediately prior to this one), I've cut Aetherflux Reservoir in favor of Grapeshot. Reservoir was too clunky and was always a "win more" card. Grapeshot, on the other hand, can win you games you otherwise wouldn't by virtue of being able to chain equipment into Mox Opal, into Retract, into Grapeshot while tapped out. I've also replaced Sleight of Hand with Serum Visions. My original thought was that Sleight was better for digging to your combo piece any time after turn 1. The more I played though, I realized that the deck wanted more/better turn 1 plays. Serum Visions's scry is actually really nice on your combo turn as well, as you can clear a land out of the way to make it easier to chain equipment or proceed with confidence knowing your next two draws; in short, it reduces variance.
Where I'm sort of stuck now is the sideboard. This is what I've been running:
2 Dispatch
1 Echoing Truth
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Repeal
1 Rest in Peace
1 Spellskite
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Twisted Image
1 Wear // Tear
Most of the choices are either very focused and powerful (e.g. Rest in Peace) or provide fairly broad utility (e.g. Echoing Truth). There are a lot of low cost artifacts in the mix, as they can help enable metalcraft early and can be picked up and replayed after a Retract to add to your combo. Hurkyl's Recall is Affinity hate that also works as a combo piece within the deck itself.
Where I'm really hung up though is trying to make a plan against Burn. Eidolon of the Great Revel owns this deck and I'm not sure what the best way to combat it is. I've considered something like Leonin Elder, but I'd need to run multiples and it still seems a bit weak, though perhaps better in combination with Aetherflux Reservoir, if I wanted to make a "life gain" package to board in. Kor Firewalker seems like a reasonable option to buy some time. Leyline of Sanctity seems good against Burn, but not their Eidolon. I've even considered Wall of Reverence, which is frankly hilarious, as you can potentially gain boatloads of life by equipping a creature with all your shields, but the wall is likely too slow, being a 4 drop. Perhaps bringing in Dispatch to answer the Eidolon and something like Meddling Mage to preempt it is the proper course. Or I could try Runed Halo. Thoughts?
Dice_Box
12-01-2016, 02:37 AM
I am suprised you went with one Outcome. From my point of view, Outcome is the card that gives this deck more power. Until now, you depended too much on Paladin but now you have other options.
CaptainTwiddle
12-01-2016, 11:45 PM
I am suprised you went with one Outcome. From my point of view, Outcome is the card that gives this deck more power. Until now, you depended too much on Paladin but now you have other options.
Honestly, I've been considering cutting the Outcome altogether. I think a 4th Retract might just be better. It's a hard call, as I've not managed to lose after resolving an Outcome, but the deck is also able to combo off on turn 2-3, which is just faster than Outcome can come online. Maybe some number of Outcomes belong in the board (probably just a second copy, assuming one remains in the main) for match-ups where they just have too much creature removal. As for adding the 4th Retract, that's odd as well. You really want to see one copy, but they tend to chain into each other. That said, having the first one, which often turns into the equivalent of Ancestral Recall, basically wins you the game if you chain into another and have a Mox Opal in the mix.
I've looked at a number of other lists for the archetype, particularly those that had placed highly in larger events, and I'm a bit surprised at the lists. Many weren't running Gitaxian Probe or Serum Visions. Instead, they would run Muddle the Mixture and Noxious Revival. I see the point of both of those cards, but Muddle feels incredibly slow. It may be more resilient, but having the cheaper cantrips allows you to combo more reliably and set up sooner. Noxious Revival is still on my list for consideration, but probably just as a copy or two to rebuy critical pieces if needed.
So, current thoughts:
-add the 4th Retract to the maindeck
-consider adding a second Paradoxical Outcome to the sideboard
-develop a cohesive plan to combat Burn
*EDIT 12/3/2016 - I've cut the 2nd copy of Mass Hysteria and added the 4th Retract to my list above
Timber
12-06-2016, 02:53 PM
This Pia's Revolution new card seems like it might be fun to try in this Mentor shell.
http://www.mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/piasrevolution.html
CaptainTwiddle
01-02-2017, 01:13 PM
Sometimes, you're just handed an auto-include.
http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/sramsenioredificer.jpg
Dice_Box
01-02-2017, 01:16 PM
Sometimes, you're just handed an auto-include.
http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/sramsenioredificer.jpg
I think that is what we needed. I think that does it. This might actually be a thing now.
CaptainTwiddle
01-02-2017, 01:35 PM
I think that is what we needed. I think that does it. This might actually be a thing now.
I was actually really happy with the list I had prior to Sram being previewed, but he definitely adds a lot:
-redundant combo piece
-slightly easier mana cost (my list ran a single Island that occasionally caused some issues)
-card draw engine that doesn't fold to Chalice of the Void
-if you happen to have Sigarda's Aid in play, you can combo at instant speed
I still think Puresteel Paladin is better in general, as the free equipping makes Paradise Mantle into a virtual mox (if not better with Mass Hysteria in play). I'll definitely be cutting my single Riddlesmith for Sram. I feel like I'd like to fit in a second copy of Sram, but I'm really not sure what I'd cut; maybe a Serum Visions or single piece of equipment.
Dice_Box
01-02-2017, 01:48 PM
Pity he is Legendary.
I think I want a 2 2 split of him and outcome. The thing that aways had me miserable was the times I couldn't find Paladin. This is really helpful.
CaptainTwiddle
01-02-2017, 01:55 PM
Pity he is Legendary.
I think I want a 2 2 split of him and outcome. The thing tart always had me miserable was the times I couldn't find Paladin. This is really helpful.
In my build with 4 Serum Visions and 4 Gitaxian Probe, I rarely had that hard of a time finding Paladin or a Mentor to by turn 3. Sram will definitely help with the consistency though. I still only run a single Paradoxical Outcome, as it's very mana intensive for my list, which only runs 15 lands. Outcome is still good, as I've not yet failed to win after resolving it, but it's usually more of a panic button than anything else, for games where all my Paladins/Mentors were immediately hit by removal. For that reason, I've been playing a second Outcome in the board.
serenechaos
01-06-2017, 08:57 PM
Paradoxical Outcome is strong, and Paladin Decks running it are fine.
But decks going that route need more interaction since the main combo piece is 4 mana. The original list with 4 Retracts has no interaction because it consistently wins on Turn 2 (especially now with Sram). If you want to play with all the original speed and insanity, Retract is the card you want. If you want to go with a slower list with multiple engines, Outcome. But if you're not winning on Turn 2, interact.
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram
4 Retract
4 Noxious Revival
2 Grapeshot
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Chathar's Shield
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Kite Shield
2 Sigil of Distinction
4 Mox Opal
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
CaptainTwiddle
01-06-2017, 10:21 PM
Paradoxical Outcome is strong, and Paladin Decks running it are fine.
But decks going that route need more interaction since the main combo piece is 4 mana. The original list with 4 Retracts has no interaction because it consistently wins on Turn 2 (especially now with Sram). If you want to play with all the original speed and insanity, Retract is the card you want. If you want to go with a slower list with multiple engines, Outcome. But if you're not winning on Turn 2, interact.
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram
4 Retract
4 Noxious Revival
2 Grapeshot
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Chathar's Shield
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Kite Shield
2 Sigil of Distinction
4 Mox Opal
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
This certainly is an All In list. I think I still like the version with cantrips more, as it's less of a "mulligan to your combo pieces" build. I also like Monastery Mentor very much. I realize that Mentor doesn't really fit with the plan of trying to win on turn 2, but it definitely adds resilience.
I'm planning on updating my list as follows:
Puresteel Cheerios
CREATURES
4 Puresteel Paladin
3 Monastery Mentor*
1 Sram, Senior Edificer*
SPELLS
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Grapeshot
1 Mass Hysteria
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
1 Paradoxical Outcome*
4 Retract
4 Serum Visions
1 Sigarda's Aid
4 Spidersilk Net
1 Twisted Image
LAND
1 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mana Confluence
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Seachrome Coast
*I'd like to up the number of Sram, Senior Edificer to 2 or 3. I might cut the Paradoxical Outcome from the main for one and possibly a Monastery Mentor as well. I haven't tried out Noxious Revival yet, as it just seemed like a way to get back your Paladin if it got killed, but I'm realizing now that it's main function is likely to rebuy Retract. That makes me think I'd like at least a copy. So maybe I'll end up with 2 Sram and 1 Revival.
My sideboard, which is far from settled, has been the following:
2 Dispatch
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fragmentize
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Paradoxical Outcome
1 Rest in Peace
1 Runed Halo
1 Silence
1 Spellskite
2 Swan Song
1 Tormod's Crypt
I'm tempted to try out Hope of Ghirapur. It's a solid play turn 1 that sets you up to combo securely on turn 2. That might make it better suited to the All In version, but I think it's worth consideration.
serenechaos
01-06-2017, 10:53 PM
Datka talked me into 3 Mentor when I played my second GP with it, but now that Sram exists Mentor is unneeded, at least maindeck. Run 4 Sram. Always run 4. Do not run less for any reason.
Cantrips are ok-ish, but you shouldn't be avoiding the strategy of mulling to your engine, because it's a winning strategy in this deck. Play 8 Paladins and mulligan hard.
Noxious Revival only does everything forever. Recovers Paladin/Sram after removal, gets Retract or Opal mid-combo, manipulates the graveyards and topdecks as cute tech against Surgical, Snapcaster, Delver, and any number of other things. In a fetch-based deck it's your second land.
Anyways, mulligan to Paladin or Sram. You have a 93% to see at least one by your mull to 5. And then they die before they finish shuffling.
CaptainTwiddle
01-07-2017, 12:41 AM
serenechaos, do you think it's worth running a single Simian Spirit Guide? It would potentially allow you to combo off on turn 1 (the same would be true of Gemstone Caverns), but SSG also acts as another red source to cast your Grapeshot. Granted, when you start comboing, it's pretty easy to find your Mox Opals and Noxious Revival gives you additional rebuys. Also, I'm wondering if Twisted Image is even better in the All In list. When you're running Kite Shield in addition to the other Shields and Spidersilk Net, getting a Paladin's toughness up to 20 seems pretty likely. Of course, attacking for lethal would mean potentially winning on turn 3 instead of 2 most of the time, but it gives you game against something like Leyline of Sanctity, so maybe it's something for the sideboard.
serenechaos
01-07-2017, 02:31 PM
No, SSG is clunky and mostly unhelpful. Turn 1 wins will always be possible but near-mythical because the engine costs 2 mana. Any turn 1 win requires an opening hand with the engine, 2 mana sources, one of which can't be a land, equipments, and then you have to draw at least 2 or 3 more equipments and hit Retract AND Opal. Doesn't really matter what awesome card we're using for our second mana, the basic problem will always be the same.
Plus SSG only casts turn 1 Srams (awesome but not worth a dead card) and Grapeshot, and you don't need any more mana sources to cast Grapeshot because when you're ready to do that you've drawn your deck.
CaptainTwiddle
01-28-2017, 10:27 PM
With the release of Aether Revolt, Zac Elsik played CheeriOs to the top 8 of an SCG IQ on 1/21/17. Here's his list:
CheeriOs
CREATURES
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
SPELLS
4 Accorder's Shield
3 Bone Saw
4 Cathar's Shield
2 Grapeshot
2 Kite Shield
4 Mox Opal
1 Noxious Revival
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Retract
2 Serum Visions
4 Spidersilk Net
2 Swan Song
LAND
2 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Windswept Heath
Sideboard
1 Alley Evasion
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Echoing Truth
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Silence
I like a lot of what's going on here, particularly the copies of Horizon Canopy in the mana base; having that extra incidental card draw can be enough to push you over the edge and complete your combo. The inclusion of two Serum Visions feels very nice; it's a solid turn one play and the scry to remove lands/dead cards from the top of your library on your combo turn can be hugely beneficial.
The sideboard choices seem pretty solid. Alley Evasion is a cute and unexpected piece of protection for Sram/Paladin. Burrenton Forge-Tender can come down on turn one and preemptively deny a Lightning Bolt that would fizzle your turn two combo. Echoing Truth answers pretty much all of the hate cards you're concerned about (e.g. Chalice of the Void, Stony Silence, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, etc.). Leyline of Sanctity protects you from discard and edict effects, as well as other combo decks. That said, I'd really like to pick Zac's brain regarding his sideboard plan. I feel like I'd almost never want to board in 4 copies of anything. I think the numbers on all the 4's could be trimmed.
I do question some choices/numbers though. I understand that Swan Song is cheap, effective protection, but there are times when it's just a dead draw. As for the equipment, I don't really get why you'd want to run x3 Bone Saw when you're not running a full set of Kite Shield. This list is not designed to attack for the win, so just having more pieces to boost a Paladin's toughness seems more sensible to me, though perhaps adding some power with the Saw could hold some opposing creatures at bay. I think only running a single Noxious Revival is a mistake. The primary role of Revival is rebuying Retract, but it can also get back a fetch land, thereby reducing the number of mulligans you'll need to take. and of course you can get back Sram/Paladin if it gets hit with removal.
Cards that I'm still pretty high on that weren't included in Elsik's list:
Sigarda's Aid - I've been running this as a 1-of in the maindeck. It allows you to pass the turn with your combo creature in play with the hope of reaching the next turn so you can untap and combo more easily, but gives you the ability to respond to removal. This is particularly nice with Sram, as you draw when you cast the equipment, so you can respond to a removal spell by casting an equipment and then, if your opponent responds to the draw trigger with more removal, you can respond with another equipment. That being said, since Grapeshot is a sorcery, this is only going to generate value and potentially set up a combo on the following turn. The other thing that Sigarda's Aid does is automatically attach your equipment to a creature, which is of significant value. Playing and attaching a shield at instant speed in response to a damage-based removal spell is a solid play. Additionally, having Paradise Mantle attach to a non-summoning sick creature gives you a free mana for the turn (particularly relevant when comboing off with Sram, since Paladin will let you equip for free). Perhaps Sigarda's Aid is better suited to the sideboard.
Hurkyl's Recall - I'd really like to include a single copy in the maindeck, but would definitely want one or two in the sideboard. Recall works as an extra copy of Retract, but can also hose Affinity.
Hope of Ghirapur - I haven't backed this one up with much testing yet, but my thinking is that it can come down on turn 1 as a preemptive Silence against decks where you'd want that effect. It's also an artifact, so it may help you turn on the metalcraft for a Mox Opal when you don't have a second land drop.
Dice_Box
01-31-2017, 02:43 PM
There are two other deck lists on Mtg goldfish. This looks like glorious fun. The cards I have liked the most have been Defend Grid and Favour of the Mighty. Two useful cards to stop some decks just piling us though the floor. Also while Outcome is now just bad in the main, I still like it as a sideboard option against decks that will kill our creatures over and over again.
Dice_Box
02-08-2017, 03:02 PM
I am missing a retract, so I tried the deck with 3 Retract and an Outcome. This thing feels unfair.
CaptainTwiddle
02-08-2017, 09:04 PM
...This thing feels unfair.
When it wins, it feels very unfair, but when you lose, it usually feels like you didn't even get to play. The hardest matchup I've had with it is Jund, as they just have so much spot removal. If they're running Fatal Push (which I really believe they should be), they have a lot of cheap answers. That aside, I think Cheerios is real thing. It's kind of disappointing to me personally, as the deck gets really old, really fast.
Random aside, that doesn't really need to be expanded on too much here, is that it really won't surprise me if Mox Opal eventually gets banned. It's not the Cheerios deck specifically; almost every non-interactive combo list that I brew ends up running Mox. The fact that it really benefited from the change to the current incarnation of the Legend Rule really unbalanced it.
Dice_Box
02-09-2017, 01:42 PM
Run some outcome in the side, it lets you power through decks like Jund. Sure, they are going to hit you with discard and spot removal, but only Thoughtseize can take Outcome and removal is worthless against it. Also you are going to get time to cast it against midrange. I am playing some over Silence in the side right now.
CaptainTwiddle
02-09-2017, 06:32 PM
Run some outcome in the side, it lets you power through decks like Jund. Sure, they are going to hit you with discard and spot removal, but only Thoughtseize can take Outcome and removal is worthless against it. Also you are going to get time to cast it against midrange. I am playing some over Silence in the side right now.
That's valid. I've also been playing around with a KCI/Eggs deck and, while slower than Cheerios, it's much more durable. One of the things that I noticed when playing that list is that having your key cards and other tools (like Thoughtcast) with CMC >3 is a real boon against decks playing Inquisition of Kozilek. I had always been playing a 4/2 splith between IoK and Thoughtseize in Jund/Abzan lists, b/c I felt like IoK was pretty much superior in most ways, but I'm starting to come around to a 3/3 split now.
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