Lost Legacy - drawing cards

[Echelon]

Question time! Lost Legacy - do you have to remind your opponent to draw cards (if you strip cards from his/her hand) or does your opponent have to keep track of that him/herself?

Had this come up during the weekend - first time around we both didn't remember, the second time I forgot but my opponent remembered.

[Megadeus]

Pretty sure it's a must. It's all part of one effect I'd say just like you can't not put two back off of brainstorm

[Echelon]

Yes, it's a must, but what are the consequences when both players forget it (and find out about it later) or when just 1 player forgets it?

I mean, I'm the one to cast the card (and should know it in the first place, especially since it's rather beneficial for me when my opponent doesn't draw any cards when he should) and my opponent's the one to draw the cards (so it's beneficial for him to do so).

[Dice_Box]

If you have forgotten the trigger, but completed the rest of the card, a judge would likely ask your opponent of they would like the trigger to go on the stack. They get to say yes or no. Also GRV.

[Cartesian]

It's not a trigger.

[Echelon]

If you have forgotten the trigger, but completed the rest of the card, a judge would likely ask your opponent of they would like the trigger to go on the stack. They get to say yes or no. Also GRV.

It isn't a trigger though, it's part of resolving the Lost Legacy. I believe the first time I cast it, I did say "don't forget to draw a card after we've shuffled/cut your library", but during that process we still both forgot he actually had to draw a card afterwards. We didn't realise until after we handled a second Lost Legacy (where my opponent did remember to draw a card) several turns later.

Thing is, it's easy to overlook and I don't want to cheat my opponent out of cards he/she rightfully should draw (or make my opponent feel like they're being cheated).

[Sidneyious]

Don't know the card it's their problem, I personally like to read out a card if it involves them

[Dice_Box]

You can't half complete an effect. They should draw.

[Echelon]

You can't half complete an effect. They should draw.

Obviously. The question is what to do if you find out several turns later they should have but didn't. And who's responsible for what. It's my Lost Legacy, I pick the cards out of their hand (and library), but they're supposed to do the drawing.

[Julian23]

Don't know the card it's their problem, I personally like to read out a card if it involves them

It also becomes your problem when you get DQ'ed from an event for that. Like you should.

As others have mentioned, you can't just complete parts of an effect of a card and hope your opponent doesn't notice. You don't play Armageddon, keep your lands and hope your opponent doesn't notice.

If a judge is a called, both players will receive a GRV warning. The player who cast Lost Legacy might get investigated and potentially disqualified for Cheating if it was determined that he noticed his opponent didn't draw the cards he should have drawn. If possible, the judge will repair the damaged game state.


Obviously. The question is what to do if you find out several turns later they should have but didn't. And who's responsible for what. It's my Lost Legacy, I pick the cards out of their hand (and library), but they're supposed to do the drawing.

I can understand that you want things to work that way. But they don't. What you're describing is grounds for a disqualification. In general, the whole "my card/their card" thing is barely relevant for anything at all.

[Echelon]

I can understand that you want things to work that way. But they don't. What you're describing is grounds for a disqualification. In general, the whole "my card/their card" thing is barely relevant for anything at all.

I mostly don't want to screw over (or make them feel like I'm trying to screw them over) my opponent b/c I focus my attention to finding whatever card I want to exile and forgetting to do the rest. Guess I'll just put down a die in the middle of the table on the number of cards my opponent has to draw whenever I fish something out of their hand with LL so I'm pretty much forced to remember.

[Sidneyious]

It's not my fault they didn't ask to see the card or not listen when I read the card off.

If they didn't draw, their fault

[Whitefaces]

It's not my fault they didn't ask to see the card or not listen when I read the card off.

If they didn't draw, their fault

If you knowingly let them 'forget' to draw cards that's cheating.

[Julian23]

It's not my fault they didn't ask to see the card or not listen when I read the card off.

If they didn't draw, their fault

The beauty of rules is that they apply whether or not you want it.

You can keep playing with your fantasy version of the rules, but don't be surprised to be in for a ton of disqualifications.

[square_two]

How similar is Thought-Knot Seer to this? When the card first came out I saw a lot of it being played where the controller would not say anything about the card draw after opp removed it and both players would proceed like nothing happened. I assume that missing a controlled trigger that is beneficial to the opponent could also lead to warning/DQ?

[Julian23]

Yes, very much so. Just like attacking with Goblin Guide and not saying anything, hoping your opponent forgets to reveal the top card. So many Burn players are doing this without even understanding of how serious an issue this is.

[Lemnear]

Indeed. If a burn player attacks with GG, without informing you about the trigger, you can call a judge over for him/her trying to cheat.

Its the same you should do if people just go into looking at the top 3 with SDT or drawing cards with it, without asking you if it resolves

[Quasim0ff]

How similar is Thought-Knot Seer to this? When the card first came out I saw a lot of it being played where the controller would not say anything about the card draw after opp removed it and both players would proceed like nothing happened. I assume that missing a controlled trigger that is beneficial to the opponent could also lead to warning/DQ?

I had an opponent do this to me at GP Prague. I terminus in drawstep, go to main, he just gives me the stare. Go to 2nd main, 'I didn't draw off TKS.'

'Your fault, I'm not supposed to say anything.'

'JUUUUDGE', and he appealed to HJ...

[cdr]

Question time! Lost Legacy - do you have to remind your opponent to draw cards (if you strip cards from his/her hand) or does your opponent have to keep track of that him/herself?

Had this come up during the weekend - first time around we both didn't remember, the second time I forgot but my opponent remembered.

Yes, you have to remind them.

Resolving spells or triggered abilities is not like remembering triggered abilities. You can allow an opponent to forget their own triggers. No one can allow a spell or triggered ability to be resolved incorrectly.

See IPG 2.5 Game Play Error - Game Rule Violation.

If the game is not too far past the point that the GRV occurred, the game is backed up to the point of the error. If the game has progressed too far, the game state is left as is, except:

• State-based actions are applied.
• If a player made an illegal choice or failed to make a required choice for a permanent on the battlefield, that
player makes a legal choice.
• If a player forgot to draw cards, discard cards, or return cards from their hand to another zone, that player
does so.
• If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players,
and it is within a turn of the error, put the object in the correct zone.

Note specifically the third one. Even if the game cannot be backed up, the player draws the cards when the error is discovered.

Both players would get GRV penalties (not FTMGS) because an illegal action (not drawing cards) was taken by the player who didn't control the card.

[Echelon]

@cdr: Thank you, that is what I was looking for.

[Echelon]

I love how you all skip over a post.

I read the card out to them so I already told them what to do.

I'm not reminding them anything, I hate having to repeat myself.

Just like how I'm having to do that now.

You're shit out of luck.


Yes, you have to remind them.

Resolving spells or triggered abilities is not like remembering triggered abilities. You can allow an opponent to forget their own triggers. No one can allow a spell or triggered ability to be resolved incorrectly.

See IPG 2.5 Game Play Error - Game Rule Violation.

If the game is not too far past the point that the GRV occurred, the game is backed up to the point of the error. If the game has progressed too far, the game state is left as is, except:

• State-based actions are applied.
• If a player made an illegal choice or failed to make a required choice for a permanent on the battlefield, that
player makes a legal choice.
• If a player forgot to draw cards, discard cards, or return cards from their hand to another zone, that player
does so.
• If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players,
and it is within a turn of the error, put the object in the correct zone.

Note specifically the third one. Even if the game cannot be backed up, the player draws the cards when the error is discovered.

Both players would get GRV penalties (not FTMGS) because an illegal action (not drawing cards) was taken by the player who didn't control the card.

You're not allowed to not remind them, you have to make them draw any card regardless of whether or not you've read them the card.

If you then still don't b/c that particular outcome suits you better, well, you're guilty of the following:


4.8. Unsporting Conduct — Cheating

Definition
A person breaks a rule defined by the tournament documents, lies to a tournament official, or notices an offense committed in his or her (or a teammate's) match and does not call attention to it. Additionally, the offense must meet the following criteria for it to be considered Cheating:
•The player must be attempting to gain advantage from his or her action.
•The player must be aware that he or she is doing something illegal

The penalty in this case is disqualification.

[cdr]

If an effect you control tells your opponent to draw cards and your opponent doesn't draw them, call a judge after you're past the point of the draw - they've committed a GRV and will get a warning. It's no different than them putting their creature in the graveyard when you Path to Exile it.