Looking for a Rule

[Beatusnox]

I remember several years ago Loop rules were changed to mandate that a specific number of iterations must be named at the start of a loop. Recently in a commander game someone created an "infinite" mill "loop" due to his target having a Kozilek and tried short cutting to "Mill until Kozilek is one of the last 2."

Myself and another legacy player tried explaining that the "Loop" is illegal and were (of course) accused of making stuff up.

I know when the rule was changed in the IPG 5 years ago it was section 4.3 under slowplay. The newest IPG doesn't seem to have the same rule listed. 719.2a is the closest I have found:

719.2a: At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non-repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can't include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut.

Is there a better ruling, IPG entry or something I can use or is this it?

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

[Dice_Box]

3.3 Slow play.

Definition
==========
A player takes longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Unsporting Conduct — Stalling.

It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.

[Lemnear]

I remember several years ago Loop rules were changed to mandate that a specific number of iterations must be named at the start of a loop. Recently in a commander game someone created an "infinite" mill "loop" due to his target having a Kozilek and tried short cutting to "Mill until Kozilek is one of the last 2."

Myself and another legacy player tried explaining that the "Loop" is illegal and were (of course) accused of making stuff up.

I know when the rule was changed in the IPG 5 years ago it was section 4.3 under slowplay. The newest IPG doesn't seem to have the same rule listed. 719.2a is the closest I have found:

719.2a: At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non-repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can't include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut.

Is there a better ruling, IPG entry or something I can use or is this it?

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

Sound pretty much like the 4-Horsemen-Dilemma of the player being unable to shortcut a loop to a definitive outcome. As its impossible to determine the order of Kozilek and the other card (or which one the other card in particular is) with a set number of iterations, he can not shortcut it which is covered in your quoted rule as "predictable result". Essentially you guys would need to execute the loop manually which is slowplay on his side

[Beatusnox]

3.3 Slow play.

Definition
==========
A player takes longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Unsporting Conduct — Stalling.

It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.
Thank you. For some reason the .txt file I had for the IPG didn't have that line.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

[Dice_Box]

Download Judge Core App. I have never regreted it.

[meffeo]

Download Judge Core App. I have never regreted it.

Android only, I suppose.

[Varal]

Casual games and sanctioned games aren't the same. While Comprehensive rules apply to both, MTR and IPG doesn't apply to kitchen table Magic. Things such as slow play, shortcuts and missed triggers are Magic tournament rules not Magic rules.

[Lemnear]

Casual games and sanctioned games aren't the same. While Comprehensive rules apply to both, MTR and IPG doesn't apply to kitchen table Magic. Things such as slow play, shortcuts and missed triggers are Magic tournament rules not Magic rules.

Does not quite change the fact that there is no way to determine the exact result of that loop

[Beatusnox]

I advocate playing even casual games under basic tournament rules. Otherwise bad habits can develop that are a pain to break from.

Also that app is amazing. Between it and MTG familiar I should be set now.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk