Noble BUG

[Zirath]

I'm going to go ahead and start a thread regarding Reid Duke's victory at GP Louisville with this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Tarmogoyf
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Murderous Cut
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sylvan Library

1 Forest
1 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Thoughtseize
2 Submerge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
1 Painful Truths
1 Nihil Spellbomb

It is obvious from this list that Reid started with Bant and found the white to not be sufficient and cut it completely for more of the traditional Sultai cards. This is made possible with the inclusion of Leovold, who most likely won games singlehandedly. The list is very traditionally built. Nothing out of the ordinary; just a very streamlined list. The big change will be to see how the deck evolves with the inclusion of Fatal Push.

[RobNC]

I finished watching all of his Dark Bant videos this weekend and I really enjoyed how frequently he was able to make a T2 3-drop creature.

It's a real shame there was no coverage this weekend, I would have loved to have seen how much Leovold screwed with people. His price has been spiking like crazy all week, and I'm sure it's nothing but up from here after his 1st place finish.

[tarmogoat]

It is obvious from this list that Reid started with Bant and found the white to not be sufficient and cut it completely for more of the traditional Sultai cards. This is made possible with the inclusion of Leovold, who most likely won games singlehandedly. The list is very traditionally built. Nothing out of the ordinary; just a very streamlined list. The big change will be to see how the deck evolves with the inclusion of Fatal Push.

Pretty sure he started with a GSZ BUG, then replaced the zeniths + some other cards for Hierarchs and a full set of TNNs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pACaOXKx368

He called the first deck draft Leovold Sultai, and apparently registered his deck as True-Name Nemesis Sultai.

It looks like there are officially 5 flavors of BUG now:
Combo Aluren - Traditional all in combo
Leovold Aluren (or Value Aluren) - Value deck with combo elements
BUG Delver - Good ol' Team America
Shardless BUG - Good ol' value bug control
TNN BUG - Reid's fine work at midrange deckbuilding.

[Dice_Box]

Triggered. Name changed.

Leovold is such a beating against the format, this deck doesn't shock me at face value. How does it handle with 8 Mana creatures?

[RobNC]

Triggered. Name changed.

Leovold is such a beating against the format, this deck doesn't shock me at face value. How does it handle with 8 Mana creatures?


In his Dark Bant videos he didn't flood out too much, but he was also doing a lot of equipping. The curve is higher than average for a blue deck with multiple 3-drop creatures and 3 JTMS.

Exalted is great with TNN, too.

[RobNC]

If I have the timeline correct this is how his deck evolved:

December 19: http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-reid-leovold-sultai-legacy/

December 27: http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-reid-legacy-leovold-dark-bant/

January 6: http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-reid-leovold-dark-bant-2-legacy/

The 2nd video adds a lot of white, the 3rd video cuts down on white significantly, and of course at the GP he appears to have just eliminated it altogether.

[Dice_Box]

Oh I bet. TNN is a beating, making it stronger doesn't sound at all problematic to me... Gods that card.

So this is already doing well online? Does anyone have links to the vids? I think that's going to answer most reactionary questions people will have.

Edit.
Thanks.

[Zirath]

Triggered. Name changed.

Fair.

Having played Bant for the last 2 years on and off, I can confirm that 8 dorks and 4 TNN feels insane. You just try to ride the advantage until they die, which should be inevitable if the TNN can't be removed.

[ironclad8690]

This list really reminds me of the deck he won the scg invitational with 4 years ago.

He has always been a fan of Daze in midrange decks which I find super interesting, especially how he has stated so often in the past he likes making his decks the most "objectively powerful" he can.

[.Ix]

It looks like there are officially 5 flavors of BUG now:
Combo Aluren - Traditional all in combo
Leovold Aluren (or Value Aluren) - Value deck with combo elements
BUG Delver - Good ol' Team America
Shardless BUG - Good ol' value bug control
TNN BUG - Reid's fine work at midrange deckbuilding.

Don't forget about Opposition and Food Chain!

[RobNC]

Recap of the finals match since we will never get to watch it: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplou17/finals-reid-duke-vs-andrew-sullano-2017-01-08


I wonder how much having 3 JTMS really helps; most decks now run 2 at most aside from the odd Miracles list. His Dark Bant videos never used it as a wincon.

[Dice_Box]

Tweet him, see what he says. I would not put Lili in here myself though. Too many cards you want to keep in hand.

[HSCK]

With 8 dorks 3 Jace seems right, maybe a Garruk as an alternate win con?

[GoblinSettler]

Triggered. Name changed.

Leovold is such a beating against the format, this deck doesn't shock me at face value. How does it handle with 8 Mana creatures?

Ugh, can we skip the ironic, "triggered"?

[catmint]

I played around with BUG Leovold midrange as well, but adding 4 Noble and 4 Nemesis never occured to me. :mad:
Multiple nobles play well with an unblockable attacker I guess.

Just wondering why not a single Vendilion Clique made it in the 75.

[H]

Tweet him, see what he says. I would not put Lili in here myself though. Too many cards you want to keep in hand.

I haven't used Twitter in ages, but I'll try to dig up my password and maybe if I ask him nicely enough he'll write an article about the deck and some choices.

[RobNC]

I haven't used Twitter in ages, but I'll try to dig up my password and maybe if I ask him nicely enough he'll write an article about the deck and some choices.

I wouldn't be surprised if he had one up on Channel Fireball this week. He's been writing a ton of Legacy articles leading up to the GP already, and along with his videos this seems like a natural "conclusion" to what he's been writing the last few weeks.

[Zirath]

Just wondering why not a single Vendilion Clique made it in the 75.

I'd guess that Reid wasn't 100% certain on all of his deck decisions aside from the core. It seems there is a lot of room to grow from his initial list. I'll keep the OP updated as the deck evolves.

[HSCK]

I think Sultai is going to be a mainstay post-push. If I were to guess I'd think pairing Strix with Leos is one route and this deck for more velocity would be another.

[H]

I wouldn't be surprised if he had one up on Channel Fireball this week. He's been writing a ton of Legacy articles leading up to the GP already, and along with his videos this seems like a natural "conclusion" to what he's been writing the last few weeks.

Good point. Probably doesn't hurt to ask though, just in case.


I think Sultai is going to be a mainstay post-push. If I were to guess I'd think pairing Strix with Leos is one route and this deck for more velocity would be another.

Indeed. I think the right step here is to consider how the meta reacts to this. BUG decks have been plentiful in the past, but I can see people gearing their boards more now. Possibly a rise in Blood Moons? Also, perhaps a rise of more Red/Burn decks?

[Dice_Box]

Indeed. I think the right step here is to consider how the meta reacts to this. BUG decks have been plentiful in the past, but I can see people gearing their boards more now. Possibly a rise in Blood Moons? Also, perhaps a rise of more Red/Burn decks?
A rise in Lands.

[Whitefaces]

A rise in Lands.

I'm not sure lands is actually that good vs this deck. I've been playing the 4c blade deck which is very close to Reids list, but with a much worse manabase and I've found lands to be a very positive matchup. Between 8 dorks, TNN, Leovold and Jace it's easy to outgrind them. Just have to have an answer to Marit Lage (I have StP, but this could play Diabolic Edict).

[mistercakes]

it probably wouldn't be fair to not give whoever this is some credit, it came out before leovold came out. maybe this person can give some opinions on how the deck has played out? it was also back in june, does this person even play this list anymore?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/435592#paper

[Dice_Box]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/Tommstok

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I'm not sure lands is actually that good vs this deck. I've been playing the 4c blade deck which is very close to Reids list, but with a much worse manabase and I've found lands to be a very positive matchup. Between 8 dorks, TNN, Leovold and Jace it's easy to outgrind them. Just have to have an answer to Marit Lage (I have StP, but this could play Diabolic Edict).

Going by Reid's deck, while Leo is good if you can land it against Lands (more so postboard I would imagine), there is no maindeck way of reliably dealing with Marit Lage or interacting with Loam.

Lands has traditionally done very well against decks with greedy manabases and small dudes, which fits this pretty well

[Douif]

Shouldn't we discuss about this deck in the Team America midrange/control thread ?

[twndomn]

Shouldn't we discuss about this deck in the Team America midrange/control thread ?

1. I hated this name. The name itself says very little about the deck, just as I hate tin-fin, nic-fit.
2. The definition of T.A. varies from person to person; based on what I understand, it's a tempo deck that usually has 4 Delvers.
3. This deck, in which Reid won with, has 8 Mana accelerators and 0 Delvers. In fact, the deck feels like it's trying to land turn-3 Jace or turn-2 threat, sometimes with Daze/FoW backup. I don't feel it's a tempo deck at all, it appears to be more Shardless than tempo.

Now, without Terminus or any board wipes like Deed, I don't understand how it can stay alive long enough to not get overwhelmed by Thalia and her pals, or Eldrazi, or any Vial decks for that matter.

[anwei]

1. I hated this name. The name itself says very little about the deck, just as I hate tin-fin, nic-fit.
2. The definition of T.A. varies from person to person; based on what I understand, it's a tempo deck that usually has 4 Delvers.
3. This deck, in which Reid won with, has 8 Mana accelerators and 0 Delvers. In fact, the deck feels like it's trying to land turn-3 Jace or turn-2 threat, sometimes with Daze/FoW backup. I don't feel it's a tempo deck at all, it appears to be more Shardless than tempo.

The mentioned thread is for non-delver BUG midrange decks, where people have, for the last few weeks, been discussing (among other things) DRS + Hierarch + TNN + Leo decks like this one. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=983241#post983241)

[Whitefaces]

The mentioned thread is for non-delver BUG midrange decks, where people have, for the last few weeks, been discussing (among other things) DRS + Hierarch + TNN + Leo decks like this one. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=983241#post983241)

Yeah, the idea of Hierarchs and TNN in BUG hasn't just come out of the blue. Especially since Leovold has been printed people have been working on it.

[maharis]

Going by Reid's deck, while Leo is good if you can land it against Lands (more so postboard I would imagine), there is no maindeck way of reliably dealing with Marit Lage or interacting with Loam.

Lands has traditionally done very well against decks with greedy manabases and small dudes, which fits this pretty well

I have been working on this style of deck for a while and played it at the GP but scrubbed a bit. However, I did beat lands, and my deck had 0 basics. You just have to be smart about what to counter and keep your deathrites alive. If they don't resolve a loam, and especially if they don't dredge one, you are in really good shape. I also conceded early in game 1 just to get my board cards in on the play.

I played a Far/Away maindeck anticipating reanimator decks, Marit Lage decks, and TNN decks. I think the card has some merit, especially when Fatal Push comes out to clear the path so that the edict is better.

It seems Reid's conclusion was that TNN is so hard to answer that you might as well speed it out there and make them beat it. Hierarchs are good for exalted triggers on the TNNs when you don't have equips.

Unlike most BUG or UBx decks the black is really a splash here -- just for a couple multicolored cards and removal. No Hymns or Lilis that require a heavy black commitment. That's a big change from a deck like Shardless or other midrange TA builds. It makes it a little less splashy, but it gets the job done (clearly). Maybe this will be the deck to get TNN banned; until then, get your Llawan's ready.

[HateKnuckle]

Shouldn't the deck be called BUG Stoneblade?

It's literally BUG with a Stoneforge package.

You could also call it Dark Bant like Reid did as it mostly resembles the Bant Deck he played several years ago with Sam Black with only adding Abrupt Decays and 2 Leovolds to the main.

The name Noble BUG fails to recognize Stoneforge as its powerful play.

[ESG]

Shouldn't the deck be called BUG Stoneblade? It's literally BUG with a Stoneforge package.

No, it shouldn't. There's no Stoneforge Mystic in Reid's deck, let alone an equipment package. He has one Jitte in the main and one in the board.


You could also call it Dark Bant like Reid did as it mostly resembles the Bant Deck he played several years ago with Sam Black with only adding Abrupt Decays and 2 Leovolds to the main.

Dark Bant is a much better name, since the deck plays out like earlier Bant decks. Here's Sam Black's list from GP D.C. in 2013, for comparison: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6049&d=235017

[Zirath]

Dark Bant is a much better name, since the deck plays out like earlier Bant decks. Here's Sam Black's list from GP D.C. in 2013, for comparison: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6049&d=235017

There are 0 white cards, so this is no less a fallacy than calling it BUG Stoneblade. I picked Noble BUG to reflect on Vintage's Noble Fish. Reid had called it Sultai True Name, which also doesn't fully describe the deck to me since Leovold is a major component of the strategy as well. I can change it to the name Reid picked; I think that would be the most appropriate change.

[Whitefaces]

I love it when people do their research.

[H]

I still don't see this deck as being unique enough to warrant it's own thread when it nearly all the elements of the deck have shown up in decks in the Team America (Midrange/Control Thread) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)) at one time or another, if not together.

[Whitefaces]

I still don't see this deck as being unique enough to warrant it's own thread when it nearly all the elements of the deck have shown up in decks in the Team America (Midrange/Control Thread) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)) at one time or another, if not together.

Totally agree. It's a wonderful and powerful deck with lots of design space, just not a brand new idea. People have been talking about Hierarch in BUG with TNNs and Leovold for a while now.

[Dice_Box]

Time for a new primer me thinks.

[H]

Time for a new primer me thinks.

While I agree, I think the coming of Fatal Push means we should probably wait to see it's effect, at least a little.

Perhaps I can try working on one in the mean time, if I get a little time.

[jrsthethird]

I'm not sure lands is actually that good vs this deck. I've been playing the 4c blade deck which is very close to Reids list, but with a much worse manabase and I've found lands to be a very positive matchup. Between 8 dorks, TNN, Leovold and Jace it's easy to outgrind them. Just have to have an answer to Marit Lage (I have StP, but this could play Diabolic Edict).

He had 2 Submerge in the SB.

[Zirath]

While I agree, I think the coming of Fatal Push means we should probably wait to see it's effect, at least a little.

Perhaps I can try working on one in the mean time, if I get a little time.

I also have no problem writing up a new primer for it. I definitely have the time but I would love help. I can start mocking something up since the old primer is pretty outdated anyways.

[H]

I also have no problem writing up a new primer for it. I definitely have the time but I would love help. I can start mocking something up since the old primer is pretty outdated anyways.

Free time isn't something I really have (6 kids, 2 are still babies) so it would probably work better if I helped you, rather than the other way around. Feel free to whip something up and we can work on refining it together, if you want.

[Whitefaces]

He had 2 Submerge in the SB.

So he did! Thanks for pointing that out, I'd say this deck is favoured vs Lands for sure then.

[maharis]

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-reid-true-name-sultai-legacy/

Looking forward to watching this tonight.


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[Secretly.A.Bee]

My only hang-up on Reid's list is why the island over the Swamp? I've always run the two basics that allow you to Decay a Blood Moon. I don't understand why you would play the island. Anyone have an opinion as to why?

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[Dice_Box]

You are trying to cast double Blue spells. You want something that is safe from Waste.

[Whitefaces]

You are trying to cast double Blue spells. You want something that is safe from Waste.

Yeah, it's much more of a UG deck splashing black than any other way around.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure, there are 6 cards you want to cast in the deck that have double blue mana with 8 dorks, all of which produce blue and green, but 4 of which do not produce black.

The question, I suppose, is do you think the Swamp should be there also?

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[Whitefaces]

Sure, there are 6 cards you want to cast in the deck that have double blue mana with 8 dorks, all of which produce blue and green, but 4 of which do not produce black.

The question, I suppose, is do you think the Swamp should be there also?

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Sure, and there are just 8 cards needing a single black mana in the maindeck. DRS and the Seas/Bayou facilitate this fine.

[Manipulato]

I still don't see this deck as being unique enough to warrant it's own thread when it nearly all the elements of the deck have shown up in decks in the Team America (Midrange/Control Thread) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)) at one time or another, if not together.

100% agree, totaly belongs to the Team America Midrange/Control Thread even if the "Team America" part in this description is dumb...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure, and there are just 8 cards needing a single black mana in the maindeck. DRS and the Seas/Bayou facilitate this fine.
I don't think you are understanding my point. Bug lists traditionally get hosed by blood moon. The best way for a bug list to hedge it's bets is to fetch up the two basics that allow you to Decay the Moon, otherwise you just lose. If you don't, your only way to do this is hope you have Decay AND forest AND draw DRS, AND have the land to remove for it left in a graveyard so you may get black that way.

I'm not talking about the basic functionality of the deck, but rather addressing a major weakness.

I put this together last night and promptly crushed Miracles 2-0 in a test game.

As to the TA thread, I would be fine discussing this deck there, though the TA players may be a bit disgruntled.

[Dice_Box]

I don't know, but running only 3 Decay, maybe it's better to concede a loss to one card and keep your base stable for all other situations.

[maharis]

I don't think you are understanding my point. Bug lists traditionally get hosed by blood moon. The best way for a bug list to hedge it's bets is to fetch up the two basics that allow you to Decay the Moon, otherwise you just lose. If you don't, your only way to do this is hope you have Decay AND forest AND draw DRS, AND have the land to remove for it left in a graveyard so you may get black that way.

I'm not talking about the basic functionality of the deck, but rather addressing a major weakness.

I put this together last night and promptly crushed Miracles 2-0 in a test game.

As to the TA thread, I would be fine discussing this deck there, though the TA players may be a bit disgruntled.

Moon is in 2.2% of maindecks and 8.5% of sideboards. Unless your meta is just swarming with dragon stompy, you're probably OK to dodge it most times. And you have force, daze, etc. Otherwise, pop a couple Krosan Grips in your board and fetch your basic forest early.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sneak and Show plays it as do some Miracles lists as well as iPainter and Imperial Taxes (magus). I guess I'm the only one who's really worried about it though, so I'll leave it be for now and make my own changes.

My meta has all of those decks in it, so I seem to have more issues than you folks.

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[Dice_Box]

If your really going to worry about it, go to 4 Decay as well. But you have 8 Mana dorks, all who you can cast off a basic. I think most of the time your going to be ok.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I did drop the Cut for a Maelstrom Pulse. You can't completely ignore Eldrazi.

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[Dice_Box]

Watch the vids Reid did. Eldrazi seemed quite ok as is. He often just picked his battles and punched them with TNN.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I have been. I'm still watching, but if he hadn't hit tnn #2 like he did and hide it, that smasher would've been the end of that game. I also try to maintain the idea that perhaps Reid is a bit better than me 😉 and that plays to making a few different choices.

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[Zirath]

Watch the vids Reid did. Eldrazi seemed quite ok as is. He often just picked his battles and punched them with TNN.

This is the key to beating traditional beatdown decks with TNN decks. TNN is almost unbeatable since the color combinations can't remove TNN easily, so it either stalls or it's a race. Against a deck like Maverick, they are forced to bring in Zealous Persecution, which can hurt them as well.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I have no clue as to how a ZP cast by a maverick player could possibly hurt said maverick player.

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[Manipulato]

This is the key to beating traditional beatdown decks with TNN decks. TNN is almost unbeatable since the color combinations can't remove TNN easily, so it either stalls or it's a race. Against a deck like Maverick, they are forced to bring in Zealous Persecution, which can hurt them as well.

Zp gives your dudes +1/+1 and opposing dudes-1/-1 :wink: It's not Golgari Charm...

[KobeBryan]

This is the key to beating traditional beatdown decks with TNN decks. TNN is almost unbeatable since the color combinations can't remove TNN easily, so it either stalls or it's a race. Against a deck like Maverick, they are forced to bring in Zealous Persecution, which can hurt them as well.

How does it hurt them? The only problem i see is that they have to play black

[Zirath]

Zp gives your dudes +1/+1 and opposing dudes-1/-1 :wink: It's not Golgari Charm...

Sorry, was thinking of Charm. My bad. I retract my statement I made in my delirium.

[Manipulato]

Any results or test games from anybody? Have a tournament in 2 weeks and I'm not 100% sold on the exact 75 so far.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

While I did alter the list slightly (-2 Thoughtseize, -1 goyf, -1 Island, +2 Stifle, +1 Snapcaster, +1 Swamp), my testing has been good. This build hasn't dropped a game against Miracles thus far, however the number of games played is admittedly around 10. Having said that, I'm still pretty pleased with it.

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[Traveler]

Any results or test games from anybody? Have a tournament in 2 weeks and I'm not 100% sold on the exact 75 so far.

After playing some warmup games in the Tourney practice room I ran Reid's latest video build (It has a GSZ Main instead of 1 TS) through a league today:

0-2 Goblins with green splash (Didn't see Port or Waste all match, maybe budget build?)

1-2 OmniSneak

(Perfect draw game one of Island into Boseiju, he fought a battle over my brainstorm turn 2 with a pierce, I dazed it, he forces, I let it resolve, and cast another off Noble looking for a wasteland which I do not find, Turn 3 he gets Omni into play, I force his ponder that was his last card in hand, next turn he topdecks Emrakul and casts it)

Game 2 I win by countering 2 Show and Tells by his turn 5 after wasting his topdecked Boseiju.

Game 3 he has turn 3 Show and Tell off ancient tomb, I can't daze it. I lose.

2-1 Aluren

2-0 Esper Jank: Featuring Preordain, Petal, Ashiok, Wasteland Strangler, Spell Queller, and JTMS (Which he bounced Leovold twice with before conceding game 1)

2-1 Elves (I have no idea how I won this other than racing his board with a Truename game 2 while I hardcast Mindbreak trap on his natural order once he drew enough mana, and then game 3 he mulled to 5 and got Thoughtseized into double TNN)

3-2 Finish in Matches
(Opened a Masterpiece SoFaI)

All in all I think I only had 1 particularly favorable matchup in that deck lineup (The Esper deck) and managed to play tight and get a little lucky versus Elves and Aluren.

So far:
Leovold has felt great when in play
TNN is the god of creature combat
Main feels decent except for the Goyf and Library (Library is always slow vs Combo and Aggro)
Sideboard needs some work, Mindbreak traps feel useless most of the time, Submerge is narrow (though great against BUG decks), and I don't know why we are running 2 Dread of Night when D&T is probably a favorable matchup...

So I've moved Painful Truths to the main for Library. I'm also going to swap in that Thoughtseize like the GP winning list. (Not sure about the Goyf still)
Mindbreak Traps in the side are becoming an Invasive Surgery and a second Surgical. (Surgery is good vs Storm/Show and Tell (And hits Loam/Terminus hard sometimes)
Dread of Night is getting swapped for an Engineered Plague and a Disfigure (Until Push comes along)

Overall I like the power of True Name just clocking people backed up with a DRS or Noble. Leovold has produced plenty of value too, either demanding an answer or delaying their cantrips/Jace until they draw one.

[ironclad8690]

I think the MBT, Submerge, and Dread of Night were all meta calls specifically for Louisville. You could easily replace them, but know that D&T is actually somewhat rough when they have active mom. Also Thalia can be a pain for the creature light draws.

[Traveler]

I think the MBT, Submerge, and Dread of Night were all meta calls specifically for Louisville. You could easily replace them, but know that D&T is actually somewhat rough when they have active mom. Also Thalia can be a pain for the creature light draws.

I understand that. MBT definitely isn't that great on MTGO.

And D&T sees way less play online than in paper (Which is fun for those of us that have ports)

I do like Submerge even if sometimes I wish it were better against more things. Its definitely pretty good against BUG, Lands/Depths lists, and the other green decks.

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,

this is my current list which I would like to talk about.

14 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

26 Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Murderous Cut
1 Umezawas Jitte

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

20 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Make Obsolete
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I have cut the 21st land from the deck because I think 20 lands + 8 manadorks + 2 Basics are really enough to make the deck work, I added the 4th AD for the land. I also took away the single Goyf and replaced him with the 3rd TS just to make Combo MU´s like Reanimator & Show and Tell MU´s better, it´s also useful vs Elves or DnT for example. But I´m not 100% sold on it...

I think Reids SB from the GP is super meta focused and a straight meta call, nothing else. I really hate Submerge and replace them with 2 Edict which is also good vs Marit Large Tokens and also has the upside of being good vs Eldrazi and oposing TNN decks.
The 2 DoN are also really focused on beating the shit out of DnT but I like to have a removal against something like Elves too, so I replaced the 2 DoN with 2 Make Obsolete which are totally supportable with 8 dorks in my opinion. They are also great vs TNN decks & Elves which is way more flexible.

I also really like to have a creature in the SB which can replace the TNN´s in MU´s where they bad, Vendilion Clique does the Job perfectly and has great synergy with the 2 Leovold (Cant draw the card off Clique), the faerie is also really good vs Miracles and solid vs Eldrazi.

Another thing I missed a bit is the fact that he has nothing to get rid of a Batterskull or Jace, so I added the 1off Pulse in the SB which has to be tested but I think it´s really solid and also super flexible.

I personally prefer Pierce over Flusterstorm most of the time just because it´s more versatile and flexible (Jace tms, Blood Moon, Liliana and so on...) but I can see playing Flusterstorm here as well.

One thing I really thought about is -1 TS - 1 Hierarch and adding +2 Baleful Strix...The upside would be:
- Up the blue count from 22 to 24
- Up the creature count from 14 to 15 which is better along with Jitte
- Increase the "removal" suite by 2 (Important vs Delver & Eldrazi)
- adding a bit more of a "cantrip" kind of card to the deck
- lowering the possibility of flooding out with bad manadorks in the late game

I think that really fast delver opening with double Delver or Goyf can be problematic for the deck especially with the lack of cc1 removal. The only thing which bothers me with that change is the fact that you give up a small percentage to have a T1 manadork which is one of the biggest points to play this version.

What do you guys think?

[theMonster]

Hey guys,

this is my current list which I would like to talk about.

14 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

26 Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Murderous Cut
1 Umezawas Jitte

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

20 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Make Obsolete
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I have cut the 21st land from the deck because I think 20 lands + 8 manadorks + 2 Basics are really enough to make the deck work, I added the 4th AD for the land. I also took away the single Goyf and replaced him with the 3rd TS just to make Combo MU´s like Reanimator & Show and Tell MU´s better, it´s also useful vs Elves or DnT for example. But I´m not 100% sold on it...

I think Reids SB from the GP is super meta focused and a straight meta call, nothing else. I really hate Submerge and replace them with 2 Edict which is also good vs Marit Large Tokens and also has the upside of being good vs Eldrazi and oposing TNN decks.
The 2 DoN are also really focused on beating the shit out of DnT but I like to have a removal against something like Elves too, so I replaced the 2 DoN with 2 Make Obsolete which are totally supportable with 8 dorks in my opinion. They are also great vs TNN decks & Elves which is way more flexible.

I also really like to have a creature in the SB which can replace the TNN´s in MU´s where they bad, Vendilion Clique does the Job perfectly and has great synergy with the 2 Leovold (Cant draw the card off Clique), the faerie is also really good vs Miracles and solid vs Eldrazi.

Another thing I missed a bit is the fact that he has nothing to get rid of a Batterskull or Jace, so I added the 1off Pulse in the SB which has to be tested but I think it´s really solid and also super flexible.

I personally prefer Pierce over Flusterstorm most of the time just because it´s more versatile and flexible (Jace tms, Blood Moon, Liliana and so on...) but I can see playing Flusterstorm here as well.

One thing I really thought about is -1 TS - 1 Hierarch and adding +2 Baleful Strix...The upside would be:
- Up the blue count from 22 to 24
- Up the creature count from 14 to 15 which is better along with Jitte
- Increase the "removal" suite by 2 (Important vs Delver & Eldrazi)
- adding a bit more of a "cantrip" kind of card to the deck
- lowering the possibility of flooding out with bad manadorks in the late game

I think that really fast delver opening with double Delver or Goyf can be problematic for the deck especially with the lack of cc1 removal. The only thing which bothers me with that change is the fact that you give up a small percentage to have a T1 manadork which is one of the biggest points to play this version.

What do you guys think?

I like your list, Manipulato. Definitely agree with the Clique plan. Maybe I'd play one Fatal Push over the fourth Decay in the maindeck, but that's personal preference and a meta call. And I might play Krosan Grip over Pulse because I suspect there will be fewer planeswalkers running around with the uptick in TNNs in the meta, but that's just a hunch and unsubstantiated. Also, has Jace been so good for you guys as to warrant three copies? I've been testing two in my Hierarch build and playing a Snapcaster over the third Jace.

Regarding Strix, I've been testing a non-Hierarch version, which I've written about in the BUG midrange thread, and have found Strix to be very useful in matchups that I didn't expect like BR Reanimator. I've had several games where I've stuck a Strix to block their Chancellor or something, and the game ended. They've even Unmasked it from my hand several times, which tells me that they see it as a threat. And Strix indeed makes Delver much more manageable. The card advantage adds up, too.

Curious to see how your list performs!

[anwei]

Also, has Jace been so good for you guys as to warrant three copies? I've been testing two in my Hierarch build and playing a Snapcaster over the third Jace.


I think Reid often plays 1-2 more Jace than most people would, and SCM/Strix both seem pretty good.

[btm10]

I haven't gotten enough reps to be sure yet, but Duke's list feels pretty close to what I want. I'm leaning -1 Hierarch, -1 Jace, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Ponder/Snapcaster/Fatal Push.

[Mapson]

I haven't gotten enough reps to be sure yet, but Duke's list feels pretty close to what I want. I'm leaning -1 Hierarch, -1 Jace, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Ponder/Snapcaster/Fatal Push.

why am I not at all surprised by you adding ponder?

[minyafriend]

why am I not at all surprised by you adding ponder?

LOL. Btm is ponders biggest fan on the source. To his credit the card is out of control. :)

[btm10]

why am I not at all surprised by you adding ponder?

Honestly I think Thoughtseize is more predictable.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Playing later this morning in a tiny little event with a stifle version. Wish me luck...

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[Ayiluss]

Well, good luck then.

Hopefully we get report or at least some notes after it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I went 3-1 in Swiss.

1-0 Miracles Win
1-2 Shardless BUG Loss
2-1 DnT Win
2-0 DnT Win

Lost in Quarterfinals to a different Shardless player, 0-2.

That matchup feels bad. Also my Abrupt Decay and tnn both got surgicaled in game two, in which I also drew 7 lands in a row.

7 decks of the 15 were bug. 1 aluren, 4 shardless and 2 Noble BUG.

It probably depends on the players whether or not the DnT matchup is bad.

Deck needs more action. I like Reid's 4c Stoneforge build, except it's obvious weakness to unfair combo decks.

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[Manipulato]

I went 3-1 in Swiss.

1-0 Miracles Win
1-2 Shardless BUG Loss
2-1 DnT Win
2-0 DnT Win

Lost in Quarterfinals to a different Shardless player, 0-2.

That matchup feels bad. Also my Abrupt Decay and tnn both got surgicaled in game two, in which I also drew 7 lands in a row.

7 decks of the 15 were bug. 1 aluren, 4 shardless and 2 Noble BUG.

It probably depends on the players whether or not the DnT matchup is bad.

Deck needs more action. I like Reid's 4c Stoneforge build, except it's obvious weakness to unfair combo decks.

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Hey,
would you share your list with us? Did you play Stifle? Curious how many high impact cards you played because I think that the Shardless BUG mu is quite even depending on how much hate your oponents bring for TNN.
What do you guys think about Fatal Push in the 75? I'm really not sure if we really need it.

My current list looks like this, probably play this next weekend at my locals.


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Baleful Strix

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Murderous Cut
1 Umezawas Jitte

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Island

SIDEBOARD
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Make Obsolete
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

FoW Count 24

I would like to add 1 Maelstrom Pulse to the SB but I dont have enough space for it :-/

[Secretly.A.Bee]

4 Noble
4 drs
4 TNN
2 leovold
1 scm

4 FoW
3 daze
3 decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jitte
2 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 ponder
1 painful Truths
3 Jace

4 Deltas
4 misty
2 Catacombs
3 sea
2 Trop
1 bayou
1 forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Sb:
3 Thoughtseize
2 pithing needle
1 sylvan Library
2 surgical
1 vendilion clique
1 Virtue's ruin
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Jitte
1 Diabolic Edict
1 E. Truth

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[theMonster]

I've been testing a Hierarch-less control build to good results - it's in the midrange thread - but I'm gonna start testing this, too:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Baleful Strix
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Gurmag Angler

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sylvan Library

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

1 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

2 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

// sideboard //

1 Spell Pierce
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
1 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dread of Night
1 Make Obsolete
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Krosan Grip
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

With two Jitte in the 75, I wanted to up the creature count slightly, going with two Strix and a Gurmag Angler (which doesn't die to the inevitable uptick of -1/-1 effects) over two Jace (though a second copy is in the sideboard). The singleton Snapcaster made me want to play a Fatal Push, too. Not sure about maindeck Edict, but I wanted to have an out against opposing TNNs and other dumb monsters in game 1. Angler might be too ambitious - not sure how reliably I'd be able to cast it - but after thinking about Reid's lone Tarmogoyf, I think having another big dude is correct. Opposing Fatal Pushes make me want to play Goyf less, though; I sleeved up two Push in my non-Hierarch BUG list at FNM on Friday and was blown away by how good it was. 20 lands feel right without three Jaces maindeck, and I have two Strix and Snap-Ponder if I need to find lands. Sideboards are of course player- and meta-dependent. Maybe I should play one more anti-combo card, but the Snapcaster lets me cheat a little in that respect.

Curious how this deck is performing for everyone.

[Zirath]

Curious how this deck is performing for everyone.

I took a list very close to Reid's (-1 Goyf, -1 Cut, +1 Angler, +1 Push) to Mythic on Saturday. I screwed up both my win-and-ins. I also changed the sideboard around a bit but I kinda screwed it up. I feel that I need to build some intuition with this deck still. It's a big difference from playing Bant in a lot of ways. That being said, it is still incredibly powerful.

[theMonster]

I took a list very close to Reid's (-1 Goyf, -1 Cut, +1 Angler, +1 Push) to Mythic on Saturday. I screwed up both my win-and-ins. I also changed the sideboard around a bit but I kinda screwed it up. I feel that I need to build some intuition with this deck still. It's a big difference from playing Bant in a lot of ways. That being said, it is still incredibly powerful.

Can you expand on that, Zirath, and discuss what you learned about how the deck plays? And what did you try in the sideboard?

[Zirath]

Can you expand on that, Zirath, and discuss what you learned about how the deck plays? And what did you try in the sideboard?

I'm a little busy today, so I won't be able to put up my sideboard until later. However, this deck requires you to plan your turns carefully. Because of your mana creatures, you have the ability to play a longer game consistently, unlike Delver. That being said, turn 1 plays are critical. At the moment, I would probably cut 1 Jace for another Ponder or Thoughtseize. Many games, you are able to ride True-Name + Leovold/Jace to victory. However, you need to set up that board state and protect it. Deathrite Shaman is a mana dork before a threat. The games where I was using it to end the game, I was either losing or stuck. It felt bad.

Shardless was a match up I felt underprepared for. Most specifically, I forgot to put Loam in my sideboard despite knowing I wanted it (Friday nights are hard). I would play Loam next time 100%.

[twndomn]

so...., most people are moving away from GSZ? I understand that GSZ for Goyf seems silly, but I do feel that GSZ for Leovold is still a strong play, I know Reid cut it at the end, I still like it as one of. I'm actually looking for GSZ for a higher impact card than a Goyf but keep the package. Something like, Sigarda host of herons or Dragonlord dromoka. With all the Mana dorks, I feel the White Mana isn't really an issue, in case you need to hardcast it.

[Whitefaces]

so...., most people are moving away from GSZ? I understand that GSZ for Goyf seems silly, but I do feel that GSZ for Leovold is still a strong play, I know Reid cut it at the end, I still like it as one of. I'm actually looking for GSZ for a higher impact card than a Goyf but keep the package. Something like, Sigarda host of herons or Dragonlord dromoka. With all the Mana dorks, I feel the White Mana isn't really an issue, in case you need to hardcast it.

Nobody was really on GSZ to begin with, it's only Reid that played them, and has not deemed them good enough. I don't hate the idea of one like you say, but it doesn't fit the curve of the deck.

As for Sigarda and Dromoka, those are much too high mana costs for the deck to support, even with all the dorks. The deck has a focused gameplan of TNN already, you don't need these fatties.

[twndomn]

Nobody was really on GSZ to begin with, it's only Reid that played them, and has not deemed them good enough. I don't hate the idea of one like you say, but it doesn't fit the curve of the deck.

As for Sigarda and Dromoka, those are much too high mana costs for the deck to support, even with all the dorks. The deck has a focused gameplan of TNN already, you don't need these fatties.

Yeah, those fatties aren't needed I suppose. However, recently I have found that GSZ into Teeg is Great!! Some Miracles players just don't see it coming and they are stuck once Teeg's in play.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure, but the deck is already (imo, Reid never lost to Miracles the 4 times he played it @louisville) favored to beat miracles. I'd rather use the slots for the bug mirror, whatever it may be that ends up being good enough to help that particular matchup.

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[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
today I played my locals and finished 4:1 at 3rd place.

Played the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
1 Umezawas Jitte

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Island

SIDEBOARD
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Make Obsolete
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa's Jitte

FoW 23

Round 1: Burn (Won 2:0)

Round 2: Enchantress (Won 2:0)

Round 3: Elves (Lost 0:2)

Round 4: Burn (Won 2:1)

Round 5: Miracles (Won 2:0)

I only won my first Burn MU because my oponent had 56 cards in his deck and got a game loss so normally I would have lost here...The burn MU felt super difficult and is only winnable if we have the perfect opener with manadork + T2 TNN and enough countermagic or Jitte afterwards. Otherwise we can counter something here and there but still lose because of the lack of a clock.

Enchantress got completely destroyed by Leovold but it's a fringe MU anyways.

Vs Elves I had the same problem like in the burn MU, no pressure on my side and no Jitte, make Obsolete was also really medium here because he had DS + Nettle Sentinel or Scavenging Ooze with 2 toughness...

The Miracles mu felt like a cakewalk, really positive with TNN, Leovold, AD & Jace.

All in all I'm not 100% happy with the deck and have to work on it. Maybe i replace the 2 SCM with 2 Vendilion Clique or Tarmogoyf. Maybe I try Marsh Casualties next time to get rid of annoying x/2s but the bb with sorcery speed is tough here and there especially vs DnT with all the mana denial...

Greetings

[btm10]

Goyf seems to make more sense, at least to me. People are just being silly saying that it's bad because of Fatal Push. As for D&T, it might be time to go back to good old Massacre. It kills a lot of our guys, but being free (or costing 1) is a lot in return for awkward sequencing. Their recent move toward more X/2s means you might have to suck it up a run a 'real' sweeper. Deluge is also an option.

[pow22]

Hi all,

I've been experimenting with a more GSZ-oriented version of the deck to some (limited) success recently:


4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice

4 Brainstorm
1 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Meddling Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I really like the way that Reid's 8-dork list plays out, but it's obviously pretty awkward to draw mana creatures late in the game. GSZ for Arbor turn one is worse than just playing out a Hierach or Deathrite, but it gives the deck a bit more consistency, IMHO, and allows us to cut back on the mana guys a little. Leovold is either awesome or terrible depending on the board state and match-up so I like playing six in the match-ups where he's relevant and two in the match-ups where he's not.

Edric, Spymaster of Trest might be too cute, but I feel his inclusion is worthwhile from a flavor standpoint and he pitches to Force like a boss. I've had games against D+T where Edric has allowed me to be more proactive in attacking with strixes to force chump blocks rather than having to sit back until they get a Sword of Fire and Ice online.

Atraxa, Praetors' Voice is intended as a high-impact GSZ-able finisher. She does a decent job racing opposing True-Names or Mirran Crusader, but weakens the mana and is terrible against Karakas. Not sure if there's a better option out there.

In theory I like the white splash more for the sideboard. In sideboarding with Reid's deck I often wanted to cut TNNs vs combo since tapping out for a 3/1 attacker on turn 2 or 3 seems pretty bad, but, at the same time, you don't really want to cut threats or blue cards just for answers. Meddling Mage attacks, disrupts, pitches to Force of Will, and has cool art. I'm not sure what more you could ask for in a piece of cardboard. To be honest, game one against combo is pretty challenging with only the Forces and a one-of Thoughtseize, but I think that was a problem with Reid's GP list too. You probably want to be playing a different deck in a combo-heavy meta.

White also gives you Zealous Persecution for the mirror.

Thus far I've played the deck through two leagues online and top 8'ed a 30 player local event. (I don't have Fatal Pushes online yet so have been running a Disfigure and Dismember in those slots.)

League 1 (2-3 :( ):
R1: D+T win (2-0)
R2: BUG Aluren loss (0-2)
R3: ANT win (2-0)
R4: UR delver loss (0-2)
R5: Same UR opponent again loss (0-2)

I tweaked the mana a bit before the second league run:

League 2 (5-0):
R1: ANT win (2-1)
R2: Aggro Loam win (2-0)
R3: Sneak and Show win (2-0)
R4: Miracles win (2-0)
R5: BUG Delver win (2-1)

Local event (7th?):
R1: RB Reanimator win (2-1)
R2: D+T win (2-0)
R3: D+T loss (1-2)
R4: Miracles win (2-0)
R5: Id
QF: D+T loss (1-2)

The D+T match-up feels *extremely* close and grindy, with their critical cards being Mirran Crusader, Sword of Fire and Ice, or any pro-blue sword, and Umezawa's Jitte. I'm usually happy to see an opponent fetching Batterskull with their turn two Mystic because it gets stonewalled by TNN all day. I'm rather less happy when it turns out that they naturally drew Sword of Body and Mind and swing with an unblockable wolf-generating mill stick on their turn four.

The main-deck Scavenging Ooze has been a little underwhelming, so I might move those to the sideboard. The deck probably needs a green two-drop to Zenith for, though -- Goyf or Grim Flayer are the obvious options. (Other ideas?) Jitte might be better main over the single Thoughtseize too.

Burn and UR delver feel like a disaster. Atraxa just isn't quite fast enough to stabilize.

Anyway, thanks for reading. Hopefully this is the correct thread to discuss 4 color monstrosities like this!

[redtwister]

I like this deck, tinkering with something like this for now:

Creature 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler

Instant 15
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm

Artifact 1
1 Umezawas Jitte

Sorcery 4
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder

Enchantment 1
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalker 3
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land 21
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Fatal Push
1 Painful Truths
1 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of Night
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte

21 FoW fodder U spells. Can't cut it below that, I think.

I have not liked Gurmag Angler as much as I thought I would have, even though I have taken out Murderous Cut. I definitely get Tarmogoyf in the deck because it is more like TNN #5 and an easy 2 mana play with Daze up.

My local is Baltimore-based, so DnT, Lands, Miracles, but also Reanimator, Storm, and High tide, even, are quite played competitively. As such, I understand the Flusterstorms and MBTs. Unless that stuff went away in my locals, I have to keep somewhat excessive combo hate, I think. Also, it has some use against Burn and not sure what else we have aside from Jitte #2. I could see the point of replacing Flusterstorm or MBT with Spell Pierce, but it is worse versus Combo.

DnT is very tough, actually, and Wr with Magus is extremely difficult if they land Magus of the Moon. I think Dread of Night is a solid choice because you want that turn 1 against them. Also, the lack of 1 cmc removal before Fatal Push is very significant, since you want to kill Mom before she is live. Decay is bnot good against Mom and then you need multiple removal spells, and if they land 2 Mom, you are in huge trouble without TNN + Jitte.

Elves and other decks that can go wide are also tough, however, so I want some kind of sweeper and if I need to cast something for -x/-x, I probably don't have a resolved TNN or my opponent is going wide and my lone TNN is doing nothing, in which case, I need to unconditionally clear the board and the life is worth it. Often, you only want it for -1/-1 or -2/-2, so Leovold and Goyf will live just fine, which we also need to consider. Toxic Deluge is my choice, for the moment, because I don't just want to hit x/1 creatures and I don't just want to hit W creatures.

I understand Submerge, but I think I will still stick with Diabolic Edict because of it's wider application.

Swamp/Forest over Island/Forest despite Daze and UUx spells because mana denial often required me to find something I could cast for Bx mana and the Forest is there simply for mana dorks. Also, anyone notice the color of our sideboard? Tons of Bx costed spells.

Main Fatal Push feels important, but I am not sure what to cut for another. Library? Thoughtseize? Sylvan Library is so good in so many matches, and it has a different role from Painful Truths. Thoughtseize is so good against decks with Stoneforge Mystic, since early you then steal the equipment they grabbed, never mind perfect knowledge and generally that hand destruction. 3rd Jace?

Also, what about a 1-of Life from the Loam in the side?

[UGish]

Not sure if this is the right place to post my list but I've been making NO BUG work since the top banning and the best list I've put it in is Reid's True-name/Noble BUG.

My list,
NO BUG

4 deathrite
3 hierarch
3 true-name
2 strix
1 progenitus
************************* 13
4 force
4 brain
4 ponder
4 natural order
3 thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 Daze
1 Sylvan library

********************* 27

4 verdant catacombs
4 misty
2 polluted
3 u-sea
2 trop
1 bayou
1 forest
1 dryad* arbor
1 wasteland
************************ 19

2 Pithing needle
1 jitte
1 tormods crypt
1 flusterstorm
2 marsh casualties
2 snapcaster
2 Counterspell
2 Tasigur
2 Surgicals


Most weeks at the local it's 3-1 or 4-0 . I've had some 2-2 finishes that could have been better with a better pilot.

What do you think? I think Natural Order is very strong right now.
My local meta is very fair , combo decks are 1 in 4, ANT or sneak and show or reanimater or dredge or something weird...
The 4th Ponder is sometimes a Jace, with a Jace instead of Flusterstorm in the board.
The single Wasteland is leftovers from having 3. I will most likely put a Fetch or a Trop in that spot.
Thanks for reading

[UGish]

I like this deck, tinkering with something like this for now:

Creature 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler

Instant 15
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm

Artifact 1
1 Umezawas Jitte

Sorcery 4
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder

Enchantment 1
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalker 3
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land 21
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Fatal Push
1 Painful Truths
1 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of Night
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte

21 FoW fodder U spells. Can't cut it below that, I think.

I have not liked Gurmag Angler as much as I thought I would have, even though I have taken out Murderous Cut. I definitely get Tarmogoyf in the deck because it is more like TNN #5 and an easy 2 mana play with Daze up.

My local is Baltimore-based, so DnT, Lands, Miracles, but also Reanimator, Storm, and High tide, even, are quite played competitively. As such, I understand the Flusterstorms and MBTs. Unless that stuff went away in my locals, I have to keep somewhat excessive combo hate, I think. Also, it has some use against Burn and not sure what else we have aside from Jitte #2. I could see the point of replacing Flusterstorm or MBT with Spell Pierce, but it is worse versus Combo.

DnT is very tough, actually, and Wr with Magus is extremely difficult if they land Magus of the Moon. I think Dread of Night is a solid choice because you want that turn 1 against them. Also, the lack of 1 cmc removal before Fatal Push is very significant, since you want to kill Mom before she is live. Decay is bnot good against Mom and then you need multiple removal spells, and if they land 2 Mom, you are in huge trouble without TNN + Jitte.

Elves and other decks that can go wide are also tough, however, so I want some kind of sweeper and if I need to cast something for -x/-x, I probably don't have a resolved TNN or my opponent is going wide and my lone TNN is doing nothing, in which case, I need to unconditionally clear the board and the life is worth it. Often, you only want it for -1/-1 or -2/-2, so Leovold and Goyf will live just fine, which we also need to consider. Toxic Deluge is my choice, for the moment, because I don't just want to hit x/1 creatures and I don't just want to hit W creatures.

I understand Submerge, but I think I will still stick with Diabolic Edict because of it's wider application.

Swamp/Forest over Island/Forest despite Daze and UUx spells because mana denial often required me to find something I could cast for Bx mana and the Forest is there simply for mana dorks. Also, anyone notice the color of our sideboard? Tons of Bx costed spells.

Main Fatal Push feels important, but I am not sure what to cut for another. Library? Thoughtseize? Sylvan Library is so good in so many matches, and it has a different role from Painful Truths. Thoughtseize is so good against decks with Stoneforge Mystic, since early you then steal the equipment they grabbed, never mind perfect knowledge and generally that hand destruction. 3rd Jace?

Also, what about a 1-of Life from the Loam in the side?

I've been using Marsh Casualties in the board for Dnt and Elves. One sided Wrath and with all the mana dorks and TNN in our deck it's what we want. Also, I've been able to kick it when casting it too!!

[ParisFlorian]

Are there still people playing this deck ?
I am toying around Sultai builds (Control with Strix & Hymns, Nic Fit...) and imho this one is really strong.

Here is my list :

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Tarmogoyf
4 True-Name Nemesis

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize

1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

1 Bitterblossom
1 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
1 Garruk Relentless (i am testing this one, not 100% sure)
2 Hydroblast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Marsh Casualties (should be 2 ?)
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Submerge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique