[Article] - A case for unbanning Goblin Recruiter.

[Stevestamopz]

This was supposed to be released before next week's B/R update, but anyway. I spent too much time writing this to not release it, so here we go.

https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/01/10/a-case-for-unbanning-goblin-recruiter/

[Pilhas]

This was supposed to be released before next week's B/R update, but anyway. I spent too much time writing this to not release it, so here we go.

https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/01/10/a-case-for-unbanning-goblin-recruiter/

Good case for the little red guys and I liked how you tied it with the rest of the ban list.
A couple of cards could easily jump from the banlist without causing harm. But for that they(WotC) would have to care....

[Ingo]

I still have my goblins lying around from way back. If recruiter would be unbanned, I'd sure give them another spin.
So. Fingers crossed.

EDIT: I liked your argument regarding Miracles. Pushing an unfavorable MU like goblins is a more elegant way to nerf it a bit, instead of wielding the banhammer on top/balance/Terminus etc.

[Captain Hammer]

Great article. I agree.

It's a pretty well documented fact that

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Land Tax
Worldgorger Dragon
Survival of the Fittest
Mind Twist
Goblin Recruiter

could all be unbanned tomorrow without hurting the format. All it would do is give other decks a fighting chance to compete with Miracles and the other dominant decks in the format (Reanimator only popped up again because GY hate started becoming rarer, it's easy to hate out of the format again with or w/o WGD).

If Wizards gave a crap about the format or atleast took feedback from players (since they're not willing to test it for themselves), all seven cards would be paroled off the ban list and be given a righteous chance to prove themselves.

[Cire]

Great article. I agree.

It's a pretty well documented fact that

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Land Tax
Worldgorger Dragon
Survival of the Fittest
Mind Twist
Goblin Recruiter

could all be unbanned tomorrow without hurting the format. All it would do is give other decks a fighting chance to compete with Miracles and the other dominant decks in the format (Reanimator only popped up again because GY hate started becoming rarer, it's easy to hate out of the format again with or w/o WGD).

If Wizards gave a crap about the format or atleast took feedback from players (since they're not willing to test it for themselves), all seven cards would be paroled off the ban list and be given a righteous chance to prove themselves.

Land Tax, Black Vise and Dragon are already unbanned :eyebrow:

[rufus]

I tend to think that recruiter is a relatively safe unban, but I'm not sure that it will really help goblins be more competitive when the greenskins are really more limited by the high efficiency creatures at the bottom end than by late game issues.

[mistercakes]

as much as i'm all for a recruiter unbanning, goblins in its current form is still pretty good. it does need 1 or 2 new goblins that could have some kind of effect on the game. but who knows, with them pushing cards like leovold and prelate, maybe it will happen at some point. people like goblins as a tribe.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Great article. I agree.

It's a pretty well documented fact that

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Land Tax
Worldgorger Dragon
Survival of the Fittest
Mind Twist
Goblin Recruiter

could all be unbanned tomorrow without hurting the format. All it would do is give other decks a fighting chance to compete with Miracles and the other dominant decks in the format (Reanimator only popped up again because GY hate started becoming rarer, it's easy to hate out of the format again with or w/o WGD).

If Wizards gave a crap about the format or atleast took feedback from players (since they're not willing to test it for themselves), all seven cards would be paroled off the ban list and be given a righteous chance to prove themselves.

I agree that we need to unban all of those cards. But without some changes to the system it' s going to take years for even one of those cards to come off. I think that if WotC doesnt care about Legacy and Vintage, they should give it off to people who actually do care about it to decided what gets banned and unbanned. I once suggested some sort of player voting system, but they could also hand it off to a business that actually makes money off these formats.

[thefringthing]

Land Tax, Black Vise and Dragon are already unbanned :eyebrow:People writing essays about the B/R List without even knowing what's on the list is a time-honoured Source tradition.

[Captain Hammer]

Land Tax, Black Vise and Dragon are already unbanned :eyebrow:

Just serves to prove my point. The other 4 could also get unbanned and no one would bat an eye. But wizards doesn't care enough to unban them.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I think that the players of legacy know much better what should... and they actually care about the quality of... get to veto a decision if it gets...
Unless you are trying to get this thread locked you should stick to discussing the content of the article.
#stacking goblins

[Stuart]

Great article, especially with all the penis jokes.

Agreed 100% that Recruiter is safe to unban. The best argument I've heard against it is that it's potentially a time waster, but as you mentioned, Doomsday is legal and doesn't exactly clog up tournaments.

As an Enchantress player, though, I'd still prefer to see Earthcraft as the next unban :smile:.

[MaximumC]

Yeah, I'd take off recruiter if I was in charge. Card is super good, but no better than other broken crap we get to play. Tutors for a number of Goblins for 1R, which all alone is worth the price of admission. Wins the game with Food Chain or Charbelcher, but since when do we care about five or six mana win conditions in Legacy.



I have decided that there are two kinds of people in this world – those that accept the world as it is, and those that want to see change, they want things improved upon and they want changes to make things better.


Yes, but this is a card game for babies.

[Chatto]

Good write-up! I would like to think WotC will finally listen, but...

[Dice_Box]

Let's talk about the article in question on a new Legacy focused site. Let's not rehash old debates that have forced me to lock threads and delete posts in the past. Because those actions taken in the past are a good indication of what my reaction is likely to be in the future.

Just a heads up.

I look forward to reading this when I wake.

[Ace/Homebrew]

If we all work together one day our children just might get to live in a world where they don't get to vote but Mind Twist is unbanned.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/81/76/eb/8176ebf8a2585965e098a9a655cf6150.jpg

[iatee]

Cards that let you organize your entire library for 2 mana are broken, not fun to play against and terrible for tournament play. 'Maybe we should start letting people organize their entire deck again in competitive tournaments' is not something anyone will ever say at Wizards HQ. That's not something they even want to think about. If you want to play casual games with your friends, you can play 5 copies of Goblin Recruiter and they can have the pleasure of watching you organize your deck a bunch of times.

The fixation on the couple dozen poorly designed toys Wizards keeps you guys from playing with is so bizarre to me. You guys have something like 13,000 cards to brew with, forget about the forbidden fruit already.

[Davran]

Cards that let you organize your entire library for 2 mana are broken, not fun to play against and terrible for tournament play. 'Maybe we should start letting people organize their entire deck again in competitive tournaments' is not something anyone will ever say at Wizards HQ. That's not something they even want to think about. If you want to play casual games with your friends, you can play 5 copies of Goblin Recruiter and they can have the pleasure of watching you organize your deck a bunch of times.

The fixation on the couple dozen poorly designed toys Wizards keeps you guys from playing with is so bizarre to me. You guys have something like 13,000 cards to brew with, forget about the forbidden fruit already.

Doomsday says hello. I mean, I guess it costs 3 mana...but still. Maybe swamps aren't your thing, and you're more of the Sensei's Diving Top sort of player. Or Jace + Brainstorm, or Brainstorm + Fetch Land. Then there's High Tide, which is essentially just reordering your deck until you've played enough cards to win. We could talk about TES/ANT/Belcher too, which are definitely a hoot to watch go off for 5 minutes in the hope that they actually got there. Remind me again how Recruiter is wasting more time than any of those?

[mistercakes]

I've been thinking about this and how would this card play out vs fair decks? I don't see it being a very fair card. If you compare it with show and tell, storm, and reanimator then it's definitely not overpowered, but when comparing with delver of secrets, deathrite shaman, and tarmogoyf I don't think they would have a great chance.

One thing worth trying is playing some free form matches on magic online and testing vs the usual suspects. I think this is the most objective way of measuring its power level in today's legacy.

[TsumiBand]

I don't think you would even dick around with Food Chain, you can just play Glimpse of Nature. The deck can go off even if its only other source of mana is Skirk Prospector and Goblin tokens/schlocky Goblins (Matron, other Recruiters, anything that isn't a Piledriver or a Haste-granter).

A Glimpse deck that cannot fizzle unless countered (or its pilot is GOD awful and can't accurately stack they deck) is probably A Thing, but I sure haven't tested it. I would love to be able to play Goblins again, it would probably revitalize a lot of my interest in finding Legacy around here, but I feel like the Recruiter effect in and of itself is one of those effects that just can't exist in Magic on a long enough timeline without getting incidentally busted. It's kind of in the realm of Wizards' attempts at "fixing" Ancestral Recall; spells like Brainstorm, Treasure Cruise, Ponder, SDT on the fringes of similarity, and so on -- these things end up in the "too degenerate not to play whenever possible" pile (maybe Top isn't everywhere, but it's a near-miss Ponder on a stick, and it invites as much Slow Play as Recruiter) and they end up restricted or banned in a ton of formats, because they just break things. They can't not break things. Having access to the top 3 cards of your library is a big deal, it just is. It's a hard effect to 'fix' without rendering it unplayable, but the alternative is that it ends up fucking everywhere.

While I don't think Goblin Recruiter is broken right here and now, I think that its existence would actively preclude any decent Goblins from seeing the light of Legacy, because it would always be there, ready to turn the deck into a self-actualizing monster. I don't think future-proofing is always a good argument for keeping something banned -- again, I would looooooooove to play fucking Goblins + Recruiter, I rather love Gobbos -- but I can see why they'd keep it off the table, in this instance. It's one of a few cards in the game that almost unconditionally lets you stack your deck.

[Sidneyious]

Sorry I do understand that cards need to come off the list but I can't take any is argument seriously with words like derp or mentioning things like 13 year olds having extractions.

You were doing good then at the end you sounded salty

[Ace/Homebrew]

Unbanning Goblin Recruiter (really anything on the B&R List) leads to 3 possibilities:

1. Nothing happens
2. All hell breaks loose
3. A fair-ish card is reintroduced to the format and sees reasonable play

Goblins currently has a negligible share of the metagame. Many newer players are unaware that it was ever a deck, let alone top-dog. Giving Goblins a tool that lets it regain a noticeable portion of the metagame (3-5%) seems like a positive, especially since it is likely to steal some of those percentage points away from Miracles.

So what is the tool Goblins requires to become a force in Legacy? It's not a Shatter goblin, although a 1/1 or 2/2 Shatter Goblin for :2::r: would be incredibly fair and incredibly welcome. It really needs an anti-combo Goblin. Splashing :w: for Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a waste of board space because it requires you to use 3-4 and you have to have one in your opening hand. An anti-combo Goblin for :1::r: would let the deck run 1 or 2 main deck (or 4 if it's ability is broad enough, like Eidolon of the Great Revel) and have a fighting chance without diluting the goblin-synergy the deck is built around. Honestly, you could probably make it a white card as long as it is a goblin. :rolleyes:



So would Goblin Recruiter revive Vial Goblins? I don't think so, it still retains the problems it has. But it is possible Recruiter could make people completely rethink the Goblin strategy and a new deck could emerge. Since we finally have a place to discuss this, I think it would be fun to see what a Food Chain list would look like. It'd also be interesting to see a Vial list (without Food Chain).

Saying an unbanning of Recruiter would bring back Goblins is easy, but you'd have to cut up to 4 cards from the current list assuming that the deck even wants 4 copies to begin with. With Goblin Matron it is possible the deck would only want 1.

[Gheizen64]

Recruiter being still banned is laughable.

As a time waster, TOP is far much of a time waster than a T2 deck playing recruiter would ever be, especially since stacks would become sort of a known-thing and not something you'd think of on the spot.

As for its power level, recruiter is ridicolously low compared to what's in the format today, like Twist or Earthcraft, and to a lesser extent, Survival (which is still fine by far and large).

Good article but i also feel that wotc would never unban anything on the legacy banned list before banning something sadly. Maro doesn't even want to print legendary duals or snow duals because he think that players wiht duals would play 8 dual lands and nothign would change as you'd still need to have dual to have an optimal deck. That's how far removed WotC is from his own game.

[GoboLord]

I don't think you would even dick around with Food Chain, you can just play Glimpse of Nature. The deck can go off even if its only other source of mana is Skirk Prospector and Goblin tokens/schlocky Goblins (Matron, other Recruiters, anything that isn't a Piledriver or a Haste-granter).

A Glimpse deck that cannot fizzle unless countered (or its pilot is GOD awful and can't accurately stack they deck) is probably A Thing, but I sure haven't tested it. [...]

While I don't think Goblin Recruiter is broken right here and now, I think that its existence would actively preclude any decent Goblins from seeing the light of Legacy, because it would always be there, ready to turn the deck into a self-actualizing monster. I don't think future-proofing is always a good argument for keeping something banned [...] but I can see why they'd keep it off the table, in this instance. It's one of a few cards in the game that almost unconditionally lets you stack your deck.

That sums up about 100% of what I would have contributed to this discussion.

@ Steve: Although the article was very entertaining to read (I like your sense of humor), I found your argument a bit short sighted (see Tsumis points).

[nedleeds]

Great article. I agree.

It's a pretty well documented fact that

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Land Tax
Worldgorger Dragon
Survival of the Fittest
Mind Twist
Goblin Recruiter

could all be unbanned tomorrow without hurting the format. All it would do is give other decks a fighting chance to compete with Miracles and the other dominant decks in the format (Reanimator only popped up again because GY hate started becoming rarer, it's easy to hate out of the format again with or w/o WGD).

If Wizards gave a crap about the format or atleast took feedback from players (since they're not willing to test it for themselves), all seven cards would be paroled off the ban list and be given a righteous chance to prove themselves.

AAHAHA never change mtgthesource, never change!

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

I don't think you would even dick around with Food Chain, you can just play Glimpse of Nature. The deck can go off even if its only other source of mana is Skirk Prospector and Goblin tokens/schlocky Goblins (Matron, other Recruiters, anything that isn't a Piledriver or a Haste-granter).

A Glimpse deck that cannot fizzle unless countered (or its pilot is GOD awful and can't accurately stack they deck) is probably A Thing, but I sure haven't tested it. I would love to be able to play Goblins again, it would probably revitalize a lot of my interest in finding Legacy around here, but I feel like the Recruiter effect in and of itself is one of those effects that just can't exist in Magic on a long enough timeline without getting incidentally busted. It's kind of in the realm of Wizards' attempts at "fixing" Ancestral Recall; spells like Brainstorm, Treasure Cruise, Ponder, SDT on the fringes of similarity, and so on -- these things end up in the "too degenerate not to play whenever possible" pile (maybe Top isn't everywhere, but it's a near-miss Ponder on a stick, and it invites as much Slow Play as Recruiter) and they end up restricted or banned in a ton of formats, because they just break things. They can't not break things. Having access to the top 3 cards of your library is a big deal, it just is. It's a hard effect to 'fix' without rendering it unplayable, but the alternative is that it ends up fucking everywhere.

While I don't think Goblin Recruiter is broken right here and now, I think that its existence would actively preclude any decent Goblins from seeing the light of Legacy, because it would always be there, ready to turn the deck into a self-actualizing monster. I don't think future-proofing is always a good argument for keeping something banned -- again, I would looooooooove to play fucking Goblins + Recruiter, I rather love Gobbos -- but I can see why they'd keep it off the table, in this instance. It's one of a few cards in the game that almost unconditionally lets you stack your deck.

No, just because a card can possibly become broken in the future(you gave no examples of a card they might actually print that would turn this format upside down with Recruiter legal) doesnt justify it being banned. You wouldnt be advocating for a Recruiter ban if it was legal would you? I mean you could use the same reasoning that they might make a card that pushes this over the top in order to justify banning it if it was unbanned, but no one would take you seriously, and so shouldnt they now.

[Teluin]

I seriously can't believe this is a 'serious' topic of discussion on here. Of all the 'unbannable' cards on the B&R list, Goblin Recruiter is NOT one of them. I wish people would stop spamming the forums with this; the logistics alone would be a nightmare. Can you imagine how long games would go? Have you no sympathy for anyone judging an event with multiple goblins decks, were this to actually happen? Yes, SOME people on here might 'master' the ordering, but that doesn't mean that a) the majority would, or b) that it still wouldn't take longer than anything should in a single phase. And the people quoting cards such as Top not being banned seem to forget that along with Brainstorm [right nedleeds?], Top is public enemy #1 and certainly the card with the most people screaming "ban it!". Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those people are also the ones crying to unban Recruiter, although I won't be bothered to scour through the garbage pile that we call the B&R thread to confirm this.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

I seriously can't believe this is a 'serious' topic of discussion on here. Of all the 'unbannable' cards on the B&R list, Goblin Recruiter is NOT one of them. I wish people would stop spamming the forums with this; the logistics alone would be a nightmare. Can you imagine how long games would go? Have you no sympathy for anyone judging an event with multiple goblins decks, were this to actually happen? Yes, SOME people on here might 'master' the ordering, but that doesn't mean that a) the majority would, or b) that it still wouldn't take longer than anything should in a single phase. And the people quoting cards such as Top not being banned seem to forget that along with Brainstorm [right nedleeds?], Top is public enemy #1 and certainly the card with the most people screaming "ban it!". Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those people are also the ones crying to unban Recruiter, although I won't be bothered to scour through the garbage pile that we call the B&R thread to confirm this.

no, you are just copying the same old bull___ that others have been saying without thinking. 1st of all , unlike SDT, very rarely are you going to have to stack your deck up more than once a game, secondly, its not like you're stacking half your deck or anything, and its not that hard to figure out what goes on top(unless its your first time playing the deck and you haven't thought about it before).

[Stevestamopz]

As far as I know, this is the only tournament that's published results from a tournament allowing banned cards to be played.

http://amclegacy.sakura.ne.jp/FSL1.html

What you will notice is that the 2 top8ing Goblin decklists did not bother to play Food Chain. The dude that came 26th did. One inbred tournament from 2013/14 doesn't really say a whole lot, but it's a pretty strong signal that the Food Chain version is just not as good.

As for the time limit issue, man did you guys even read the article? I spoke about why it wouldn't be an issue and gave links to why it was banned. There was never a mention of "time limits," ever from wotc, and it does not cause issues. It's probably easier to resolve than Goblin Matron half the time because you can get all the things you would like, not just one and hope for the best. This argument is just another internet meme that continues to run amok, despite having the reason for it's ban in Extended shoved right in front of you.

Again, Doomsday and Dwarven Recruiter are both legal cards. Doomsday is much harder to play correctly (apparently at least), and Dwarven Recruiter does literally the exact same thing as Goblin Recruiter. By the logic by some in this forum, shouldn't they be banned then because you could risk going to time and because "you can stack your whole entire deck"? (I didn't realise I could put wasteland/port/basic mountain on top of my deck with recruiter, that's sick! thanks for letting me know)

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

[nedleeds]

Ad Nauseum takes longer than a Recruiter stack. You also aren't going to have the grinder / try hard's of the world playing it because it's going to be bad. The only people playing it will be against the grain curmudgeon turd hats like Steve and me who know how it works and what to stack.

[Dark Ritual]

You can't come to one conclusion after one tournament. Sure food chain goblins didn't top 8 unlike the other two, but that could have been variance quite easily. You could go 0-3 drop with mystical tutor ANT in theory, doesn't make mystical tutor version suboptimal and bad.

Unban recruiter already WotC. It's a joke at this point. People say stacking your deck takes long? Not remotely true as 99% of the time you're making the same stack you usually make. No more of an offender than top is and top is legal.

[TsumiBand]

No, just because a card can possibly become broken in the future(you gave no examples of a card they might actually print that would turn this format upside down with Recruiter legal) doesnt justify it being banned. You wouldnt be advocating for a Recruiter ban if it was legal would you? I mean you could use the same reasoning that they might make a card that pushes this over the top in order to justify banning it if it was unbanned, but no one would take you seriously, and so shouldnt they now.

I mean, 15 years ago (give or take) they pre-emptively restricted Mind's Desire in Vintage before it was even playable, it's fine to use a little bit of reasoning about the effects of cards when you're trying to be prescient. You can look at a card's effect and see that it prohibits meaningful prints in the future in order to mitigate that which currently exists.


Again, Doomsday and Dwarven Recruiter are both legal cards. Doomsday is much harder to play correctly (apparently at least), and Dwarven Recruiter does literally the exact same thing as Goblin Recruiter. By the logic by some in this forum, shouldn't they be banned then because you could risk going to time and because "you can stack your whole entire deck"? (I didn't realise I could put wasteland/port/basic mountain on top of my deck with recruiter, that's sick! thanks for letting me know)

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

Of course no one's talking about Dwarven Recruiter, it's never been in a busted deck. Goblins was THE AGGRO DECK* in Legacy for years. Go shake up the meta with Dwarven Recruiter and then we can start talking about how busted that card is. They did not ban Ancestral Memories when they banned Dig Through Time, I fucking wonder why?

* - I'm not getting drawn into conversations about whether it was aggro/aggro-control, we all know what I mean when I say this :P :P

[Cire]

Dwarven Recruiter does literally the exact same thing as Goblin Recruiter.

Except, Dwarves as a tribe (and individually) are terrible . . . and even then the Dwarven Recruiter costs 1 more.

[Stevestamopz]

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.


Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.


Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.


Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.


Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

[Cire]

But why not? The whole point of the argument is that a card should be banned if it could risk going to time. In order for that to happen the card must be played. If a card is so bad that it isn't played, then there is no risk of it going to time. Additionally, you have to consider the aggregate effect. Reason top is so bad is not just that it runs the risk of time and that it is played, it is also that it is played ALOT. Thus due to the percentages, in a tournement it almost always causes people to go to time. The arguement is that goblin recruiter would also cause that problem. Under those metrics, Dwarven Recruiter will not.

[Jack Miton]

Easiest solution on the planet is to unban it and erata it to say stack 5 gobs.
Obviously i highly doubt that will happen but it IS an option they have.

PS: I'll be you any money that erata or no, a gobs pilot would spend at most half the time stacking their deck with recruiters in a game than a miracles player spends fiddling with their top in any given turn cycle.

[Dice_Box]

But why not? The whole point of the argument is that a card should be banned if it could risk going to time. In order for that to happen the card must be played. If a card is so bad that it isn't played, then there is no risk of it going to time. Additionally, you have to consider the aggregate effect. Reason top is so bad is not just that it runs the risk of time and that it is played, it is also that it is played ALOT. Thus due to the percentages, in a tournement it almost always causes people to go to time. The arguement is that goblin recruiter would also cause that problem. Under those metrics, Dwarven Recruiter will not.
If top is not Banned, this is not an argument I will concede. As of right now, Wizards appears to be fine with cards that eat excessive amounts of time so that's not a black mark on Recruiter.

[hymnyou]

Wait people are actually worried about goblin recruiter?
A game of 10-30 top spins crushes a resolved recruiter in time use. A slow recruiter resolve is less likely than slow top spins.
This is a format full of answers and allows show & tell + griselbrand. Get real.

[Cartesian]

A agree that Goblin Recruiter could be unbanned, but we will have to wait for a prisoner exchange for it to happen.

Time is not an issue. I know this because Food Chain Goblins was a real deck in ancient T1 format. I recall losing to the deck many times with my Oath deck, but I don't recall any issues with time.
Also, the original WotC banning announcement from old extended, and follow up article makes no mention of time or "logistic" issues. The card was/is banned for power reasons, plain and simple.

[Lemnear]

Easiest solution on the planet is to unban it and erata it to say stack 5 gobs.
Obviously i highly doubt that will happen but it IS an option they have.

God, this is so insanely dumb. If they wanted to have the "stack 5 goblins" legal, the "easiest solution" is fucking PRINT such card and earn money from it. Its like saying "they should unban Yawgmorhs Will and errata it to instants & sorceries only" instead of printing PIF.

[Stevestamopz]

A agree that Goblin Recruiter could be unbanned, but we will have to wait for a prisoner exchange for it to happen.

Time is not an issue. I know this because Food Chain Goblins was a real deck in ancient T1 format. I recall losing to the deck many times with my Oath deck, but I don't recall any issues with time.
Also, the original WotC banning announcement from old extended, and follow up article makes no mention of time or "logistic" issues. The card was/is banned for power reasons, plain and simple.

I actually quoted and sourced the original b/r updates which say this. At this stage, I just have to assume no one has actually read the article because all I'm getting is the same tired and useless rhetoric back from people who just read the headline and kneejerked.

Lemnear, go be rude somewhere else.

[TsumiBand]

I actually quoted and sourced the original b/r updates which say this. At this stage, I just have to assume no one has actually read the article because all I'm getting is the same tired and useless rhetoric back from people who just read the headline and kneejerked.

TIL if you read the article and disagree anyway, you didn't read the article


Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

This is silly. The playability of all Goblins is absolutely part of the conversation. We don't have conversations about Zombie decks or Kavu decks just because Grave Defiler or Kavu Howler are cards, because the rest of the cards in those decks would be Tier 7 jank. I'm not even talking about time constraints here, for the record - I don't find that argument compelling, unless your opponent has never played the deck and cannot make a Goblin stack in a reasonable amount of time. The Goblin tribe has a lot of synergy even for overcosted weenies, which is why this is even a conversation in the first place, right?

[Jack Miton]

God, this is so insanely dumb. If they wanted to have the "stack 5 goblins" legal, the "easiest solution" is fucking PRINT such card and earn money from it. Its like saying "they should unban Yawgmorhs Will and errata it to instants & sorceries only" instead of printing PIF.
yes, because that is something that is likely to happen in today's card design world.

[Sidneyious]

TIL if you read the article and disagree anyway, you didn't read the article







This is silly. The playability of all Goblins is absolutely part of the conversation. We don't have conversations about Zombie decks or Kavu decks just because Grave Defiler or Kavu Howler are cards, because the rest of the cards in those decks would be Tier 7 jank. I'm not even talking about time constraints here, for the record - I don't find that argument compelling, unless your opponent has never played the deck and cannot make a Goblin stack in a reasonable amount of time. The Goblin tribe has a lot of synergy even for overcosted weenies, which is why this is even a conversation in the first place, right?
I read the article, I saw a half decent attempt to say it was a good idea then a salty argument about people masturbating and using words that are not words.

[Final Fortune]

I agree it's a better idea to unban aggro card advanage engines than ban Sensei's Dining Top at this point, Goblin Recruiter, Skullclamp and Survival of the Fittest I think would be net contributers to the format as there are a number of banned cards that aren't good enough for Vintage on the list but aren't clearly bad for Legacy; aggro-combo is just such a cool archetype over Eldrazi to let loose.

[Gheizen64]

I agree it's a better idea to unban aggro card advanage engines than ban Sensei's Dining Top at this point, Goblin Recruiter, Skullclamp and Survival of the Fittest I think would be net contributers to the format as there are a number of banned cards that aren't good enough for Vintage on the list but aren't clearly bad for Legacy; aggro-combo is just such a cool archetype over Eldrazi to let loose.

Skullclamp is probably way too good, just an hint, since i haven't tried a list with it honestly, but it looks busted in elves (think of it as a permanent glimpse). It's much less low-investment compared to something like Survival too (which is so incredibly worse nowadays than it was years ago due to how the format has changed and how the combo work).

I'd like to see some lists with clamp though, even if they probably are too good. Nothing like Channel which make for an hilarious but stupidly broken Lich's Mirror deck.

EDIT: forgot about pyromancer/mentor, yeah Skullclamp is probably way too good

[Stevestamopz]

Skullclamp and Mentor/Pyromancer? No thanks.

The blue decks don't need any more help, they already have Brainstorm. Survival and Recruiter are so much worse than you would imagine. I've been fortunate enough to play Survival and Recruiter at my normal weekly legacy events (+1 for friendly legacy communities) and they were both very subpar. Survival does have a higher ceiling than Recruiter but they both have incredibly low floors. "T2 survival? Oh cool, you're dead," happened a lot.

[Crimhead]

I've always been undecided about Recruiter - I've never really invested the time to understand how it might play out and hence I reserved judgement. I'm now under the belief that Recruiter deserves to come off. Basically, I'm successfully convinced that no Recruiter deck would be more powerful (or time consuming) than some of the decks we already have. recruiter Gobos would not be in danger of overrunning our meta! And nobody seems to be presenting an argument to the contrary.


It's also a unique deck with synergistic cards and a play-style dissimilar to the bulk of the format; so it would help make Legacy more diverse. Being a less costly deck that will help sustain the format is just gravy.



I say “update” because we are as likely to get a change to the list as I am to grow an extra three inches onto my penis overnight.For the most part your article was on point and your arguments were supported. I could have done without the phallic humour, bus it's easy enough to ignore. I only mention it because the quoted passage sounds like a cry for help. Just FYI, the General section over at salvations periodically gets spam posts trying to sell questionable goods or services. Best of luck!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general


There are two categories that in my opinion must be met for a card to be worthy of being unbanned.

- It must not be more broken than anything already is (Show and Tell, I am looking square at you, you miserable fucking shit stain on this beautiful format).
- It must actually contribute to the meta in a positive way and contribute more interaction to a format that is already full of “derp I win” decks (still looking at you Show and Tell).
I do have to disagree with this. In fact, the philosophy behind the two points seem at odds with each other - I could argue that it isn't fair to keep a "non-interactive" card banned if there are other, less interactive cards allowed to run free.

Point two is also a bit subjective. Is CotV an uninteractive card? As Lands player, it allows me to to interact in games that would have otherwise blown me out.

"Non-interactive" decks usually require a different approach when we are against them. Sometimes a deck in a meta can reduce the average amount of interaction per game, but actually increase the range of ways in which different decks interact. Does such a deck contribute to the meta in a positive way? Let's leave these subjective ideas out of the discussion! (For the record, I want to see Twist unbanned too).

[Stevestamopz]

Thanks Crimhead.

With regards to my two-tier system for unbanning a card, let me explain further. Nothing on the banned list that I was referring to promotes interaction: eg Tinker, Oath, Hermit Druid. Mind Twist is on the same level as Black Vise (lol remember when people said unbanning that would be dangerous?) and can easily be unbanned. Does it make games more interesting? I don't know, and I assume I will never find out because the card is basically unplayable. Games where you get Hymned two or three times in consecutive turns are already miserable but Mind Twist will be doing a bad impression of that almost guaranteed, so we meet the 2 tier system: not more broken, doesn't reduce games to "lol t1 you lose". You are probably not winning if you get twisted for 7 on turn 1 but your opponent will surely be as empty handed as you also are. Not a particularly compelling game but imagine the stories that people would have after they came back from that and won!

I can see how people could argue that Chalice forces you to interact and therefore so does Show and Tell but Chalice is leagues apart from the power level of Show and Tell. "Interact with my indestructible annihilator 6 15/15 that flies!" basically reads play Death and Taxes. Interact with my Chalice = play Abrupt Decay or Ancient Grudge or Shatter or Shattering Pulse or Spell Snare or Daze or Spell Pierce or *insert a million other things that interact that can be found in every fucking colour*. In a format with Jitte and Counterbalance if you can't beat Chalice you're just not trying very hard to win.


I could have done without the phallic humour, bus it's easy enough to ignore. I only mention it because the quoted passage sounds like a cry for help. Just FYI, the General section over at salvations periodically gets spam posts trying to sell questionable goods or services. Best of luck!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general

That part I can't help you with I'm afraid. I wanted my article to be interesting to read and I want to make people laugh. Even if the reader disagrees with me, I hope that they can at least appreciate the article as opposed to all the articles written by the SCG grinders which have about as much soul as Justin Bieber's asscheek. Also mocking Show and Tell players will never get old.

[thefringthing]

"Interact with my indestructible annihilator 6 15/15 that flies!"Emrakul isn't indestructible. I've seen one die in combat to triple Tombstalker block. The blocking player pulled out a win from zero permanents.

[Stevestamopz]

Emrakul isn't indestructible. I've seen one die in combat to triple Tombstalker block. The blocking player pulled out a win from zero permanents.

If there was ever a case of good vs bad, that example ^ is it haha.

I have sadly never had 15 power of flyers + 6 other permanents to have found this out but you are correct.

[CptHaddock]

If there was ever a case of good vs bad, that example ^ is it haha.

I have sadly never had 15 power of flyers + 6 other permanents to have found this out but you are correct.

Don't need 15 power of flyers, just the 6 other permanents. I couldn't find better coverage of this but Thomas Enevoldsen survived 2 Emrakul hits in the GP he later on went and won.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-Twz77o0p8

[Final Fortune]

Skullclamp is probably way too good, just an hint, since i haven't tried a list with it honestly, but it looks busted in elves (think of it as a permanent glimpse). It's much less low-investment compared to something like Survival too (which is so incredibly worse nowadays than it was years ago due to how the format has changed and how the combo work).

I'd like to see some lists with clamp though, even if they probably are too good. Nothing like Channel which make for an hilarious but stupidly broken Lich's Mirror deck.

EDIT: forgot about pyromancer/mentor, yeah Skullclamp is probably way too good

I'm sure it would be amazing in Elves, Goblins and Affinity and that's my point, Goblin Recruiter only benefits Goblins where Skull Clamp would support aggro-combo as an archetype across the board. A format that has to consider SBing Engineered Plague would be wonderful compared to building every deck around Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

I kind of doubt Skull Clamp would be serious in a Pyromancer/Mentor deck, how do you play it any significant numbers barring Trinket Mage and isn't it just win more? Honestly I just don't really see cards like Skull Clamp and Survival of the Fittest being THAT overpowered in an era of Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman, it'd just give Miracles a well deserved thrashing.

[Stevestamopz]

I'm sure it would be amazing in Elves, Goblins and Affinity and that's my point, Goblin Recruiter only benefits Goblins where Skull Clamp would support aggro-combo as an archetype across the board. A format that has to consider SBing Engineered Plague would be wonderful compared to building every deck around Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

I kind of doubt Skull Clamp would be serious in a Pyromancer/Mentor deck, how do you play it any significant numbers barring Trinket Mage and isn't it just win more? Honestly I just don't really see cards like Skull Clamp and Survival of the Fittest being THAT overpowered in an era of Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman, it'd just give Miracles a well deserved thrashing.

We have this eternal format in Australia called 7 Point Highlander. It's like Canadian Highlander I guess except it's 60 cards and there's a points system and you can only have a total of 7 points in your 60. You can find more about it here: http://www.auseternal.com/7-point-highlander/

I bring this up because Clamp is one of the defining archetypes of that format. So much so that they've even pointed Steelshaper's Gift.

Now, as for Skullclamp, you are forgetting that you can Stoneforge for it as well. Some UW/X Stoneblade deck would absolutely abuse Skullclamp. Don't need to draw cards? Just get Batterskull instead. Combined with Pyro/Mentor, it would be format warping.

I agree Survival wouldn't be busted and is nowhere near it (I have also tested this card) but Skullclamp is just barking up the wrong tree IMO.

[(nameless one)]

Both Survival and Recruiter isn't busted in today's standard. I feel like with the new B/R announcement times, they should give it a try

[Gheizen64]

I'm sure it would be amazing in Elves, Goblins and Affinity and that's my point, Goblin Recruiter only benefits Goblins where Skull Clamp would support aggro-combo as an archetype across the board. A format that has to consider SBing Engineered Plague would be wonderful compared to building every deck around Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

I kind of doubt Skull Clamp would be serious in a Pyromancer/Mentor deck, how do you play it any significant numbers barring Trinket Mage and isn't it just win more? Honestly I just don't really see cards like Skull Clamp and Survival of the Fittest being THAT overpowered in an era of Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman, it'd just give Miracles a well deserved thrashing.

Survival isn't on the same plane as skullclamp, sorry but no. I'm not sure Survival would even be good nowadays, lots of hints pointing to no. T3 Triple vengevines strats or Iona with 0 backup aren't strategies that do anything in today's legacy.

[Stevestamopz]

Both Survival and Recruiter isn't busted in today's standard. I feel like with the new B/R announcement times, they should give it a try

I hope they will, but know that they won't. They didnt even acknowledge us as a format in the latest update lmao.

[Julian23]

To be fair, this isn't the first time they have not mentioned the formats where there were "no changes".