[Primer] Nic Fit

[Brael]

Speaking of a little bit of everything - what are your thoughts on Vizier of the Menagerie + Worldly Tutor?

That'd effectively allow you to "GSZ" for Ranger of Eos/Confidant. Slip a Shriekmaw into the list and you can GSZ for Terror.

Doesn't seem worth it. It still requires burning a GSZon Vizier, then another GSZ basically to break even. Meaning it needs to hit 3 times to come out ahead.

[Ulysse95]

Speaking of a little bit of everything - what are your thoughts on Vizier of the Menagerie + Worldly Tutor?

That'd effectively allow you to "GSZ" for Ranger of Eos/Confidant. Slip a Shriekmaw into the list and you can GSZ for Terror.

I think brainstorm would be more consistant and do not CD even without vizir

[Amulet of the HangingLamp]

I played my most updated BUG list last night at a local store to a 3-1 finish. There is a good mix of decks within the 20 - 30 players who play here each week for Thursday night Legacy. Here is the list:

Maindeck (60):

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk

1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard:

1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Damnation
1 Fatal Push
1 Golgari Charm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Lost Legacy
1 Negate
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge

How the night went...

W 2-1 vs Miracles

I made sure G1 not to use Veteran Explorer to ramp him. I eventually got both Nissa and Ob Nixilis out and Deed solidified the win. I played Lost Legacy both games 2 and 3 naming Jace and Entreat respectively due to what was in my hand. Jace and Entreat are their two most explosive cards and IMO are the cards you should be naming first with any Planeswalker heavy version. If you are playing more creatures, Terminus is probably one of the first choices. For those who have played Lost Legacy against Miracles, I would love to get your input. G3 was similar to G1 except that I was gaining 6 mana a turn with Carpet.

W 2-0 vs Burn

You always want to get Veteran Explorer out ASAP and block their Guide/creature to try and get to 6 mana to GSZ for Thragtusk. If they play Sulfuric Vortex (I hit one with Cabal Therapy G1), just Decay or Deed it before playing Thragtusk or Ooze.

L 0-2 vs Elves

This guy is a very skilled Elves player. In G1, he combo'd T3 and never hesitated once on what to do. It didn't help that I kept a hand of Bayou, Stronghold, Explorer, Decay, Witness, Thragtusk, Ob Nixilis on the play in the dark. I probably should have mulligan'd. I guess I took a chance hoping he was not playing a fast combo deck. G2 I had a great hand and followed a Deed with Damnation. I also played Lost Legacy naming Natural Order. He top decked GSZ however and got Ooze when there were about 9 creatures in our graveyards and I never drew any removal the next 5 turns. Post sideboard, I feel this match up is slightly in our favor.

W 2-0 vs Soldier Stompy

In G1, he played a T1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar. I followed with a forest and Explorer (into play tapped). Two turns later, I blocked his Thalia helping me get mana to play Deed. Fortunately, he never played Suppression Field and I wiped the board. I then played Liliana and Ob Nixilis which were both fantastic. In G2, he got me down to 4 and I honestly thought I was going to lose. I was able to play Damnation followed by Thragtusk which helped me stabilize. He eventually had 3 Suppression Fields out but it was too late.

In conclusion, the deck is a blast to play and feels competitive against a mix field. I was on both Junk and 4 Color Nic Fit before switching to BUG and while those decks can be more explosive (with Siege Rhino and Sigarda), I absolutely love the consistency blue offers with both Strix and Jace. The only two cards in the maindeck I am considering removing are Volrath's Stronghold and Collective Brutality. I honestly never use Stronghold when it is out and with the amount of Deathrite's in legacy, I think it should just be another fetch. Meren IMO plays the same role and is more efficient. I decided to try Brutality instead of a 4th GSZ (there aren't as many good targets in BUG compared to Junk/4 Color). While I never drew it last night, I will probably keep it in for the time being. Ironically, burn and elves are two of the best match ups for it. For those who play Stronghold and/or Brutality in BUG, I would love to get your thoughts and would be happy to discuss any other card choices.

PS: This was the first time I actually played Ob Nixilis (instead of a 2nd Nissa) and it was great.

[mstephenson]

W 2-1 vs Miracles

I made sure G1 not to use Veteran Explorer to ramp him. I eventually got both Nissa and Ob Nixilis out and Deed solidified the win. I played Lost Legacy both games 2 and 3 naming Jace and Entreat respectively due to what was in my hand. Jace and Entreat are their two most explosive cards and IMO are the cards you should be naming first with any Planeswalker heavy version. If you are playing more creatures, Terminus is probably one of the first choices. For those who have played Lost Legacy against Miracles, I would love to get your input. G3 was similar to G1 except that I was gaining 6 mana a turn with Carpet.




I always name Jace then entrete. Doesn't matter what you are winning with if they can't win the game.

[Brael]

My first name is almost always Terminus. Jace can't do much on his own. When you're free to overextend Jace isn't much of a threat.

[removedfromgame]

Is there a breakdown on the number of mana ramp/card draw that rhino fit should be running? I run a list that looks like this but bit feels kind of anemic.

3 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
4 verdant
3 windswept
1 flats
1 savannah
2 bayou
2 scrub land
1 tower

3 vet
3 drs
1 ooze
2 tracker
1 courser
1 witness
3 rhino
1 sigarda

4 therapy
3 top
3 path
1 innocent blood
2 thoughtsieze
2 decay
1 diabolic edict
3 deed
4 green sun

1 nissa vf

I'm having a lot of trouble with consistency and having the deck feel like there's any actual power to it. I find that making one play a turn as this deck is wont to do is not cutting it. What could I run that isn't se fit that helps with the consistency of drawing cards without turning the deck into a mess?

[square_two]

Is there a breakdown on the number of mana ramp/card draw that rhino fit should be running? I run a list that looks like this but bit feels kind of anemic.

3 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
4 verdant
3 windswept
1 flats
1 savannah
2 bayou
2 scrub land
1 tower

3 vet
3 drs
1 ooze
2 tracker
1 courser
1 witness
3 rhino
1 sigarda

4 therapy
3 top
3 path
1 innocent blood
2 thoughtsieze
2 decay
1 diabolic edict
3 deed
4 green sun

1 nissa vf

I'm having a lot of trouble with consistency and having the deck feel like there's any actual power to it. I find that making one play a turn as this deck is wont to do is not cutting it. What could I run that isn't se fit that helps with the consistency of drawing cards without turning the deck into a mess?

Your list isn't far off from the more standard junk lists. Most run 21 or 22 lands, with either 2 Phyrexian Tower or a mix of 1 Tower, 1 Stronghold. 4 Vets is pretty standard just so that you see it as much in opening hand as possible - you simply have to rely on Top + shuffle effects to not draw them late game when their usefulness is exhausted.

You do seem to be lacking finishing power. I would suggest adding both another threat, plus adding some sort of grinding enabler to help push you ahead. This could be DL Dromoka + Meren, for instance. A couple of Painful Truths. Or more walkers (did Sorin, GN fall out of favor?). Less usual ideas, just to spur some thought - adding 1 Stoneforge + Batterskull + another equipment. You don't have to go all-in, and Sigarda with just about any equipment is a beautiful sight to behold.

As far as cuts to make room, I try to recommend ~6 spot removal alongside 3 Deed. So you could cut an innocent blood or edict. Thoughtseizes in the main do help against combo game 1, but you could also remove those in order to add some more oomph. 3 Decay 3 Path isn't a bad place to be - but also, including Collective Brutality might mitigate the effect of losing Thoughtseize. Another source of cuts could be going down to 1-2 DRS. I'm not a big fan of too many DRS in junk lists. BUG lists are an entirely different matter.

[Echelon]

@removedfromgame: Normally I'd love to help, but I'm about to leave on vacation for 2 weeks so I don't really have the time.

See you guys back in 2 weeks!

[Warden]

@removedfromgame: You should reconsider some choices. As-is, you're very reactionary and building towards a lackluster end-game. @square_two actually recommends a lot of good options to consider.
Personally, I think you need cut 2 thoughtseize, 1 blood, 1 edict because they don't entirely jive with your strategy. Speaking of, your end-game is (for lack of a better word) "weak" because it's nearly non-existant.

Lands: 21 lands is doable. 22 is the consensus (barring some strange list). I'd advocate for utility stuff like tower+stronghold, karakas, kessig. I'd drop a basic and reconsider the total number of fetches.

4:2 is common with vets:drs. I've done okay with 3:3 before. Your call. The sweet spot for me has been 4 vet / 2 drs / 1 sakura. Looks weird on paper but it's remarkably solid.
Trade Courser for Sakura, who is unusually dependable.

@square_two is right about spot removal. The ballpark of 6 is a nice starting point. Ultimately you need to adjust to your meta. For the larger meta, I'd recommend running 3 path + 2 decay + 1 [pulse/vindicate]. Support this with 3 deed (or 2 deed + 1 additional spot removal for a faster meta...but this is a debatable). If you don't want the raw flexibility of pulse/vind, you could run Toxic D (creature hordes) or To the Slaughter (raw upside is a nice 2-for-1). This configuration is a peg above your innocent blood, d. edict approach on almost every level.

For Junk, Thoughtseize isn't needed (unless your meta is combo heavy). There's +2 slots. I am the first one to say I don't think Tracker is the bee's knees. I'm a heretic on in this thread. I acknowledge his upside, but honestly he doesn't do enough for me. I consider his upside to be toeing the line of "win more". Others find him incredible. Guess I don't have the magic touch. I'd confidently shave down your 2x Tracker to 1x. We need another dedicated beater. Sensei's Top is another debated slot in lists. I prefer running 3. Others enjoy 2. Honestly, I never have luck with just 2 (ie; never in my opener or drawn throughout a game). For arguments' sake, we can shave 1x Top from the list to gain yet another spot. A sacred cow I'm willing to slaughter is Ooze. I think he's overrated in the meta, despite DRS being very popular. I'll keep him in this draft with a big ol' question mark.

**
22 lands (21 + arbor also a possibility)

4 vet
2 drs
1 sakura
1 ooze?
1 tracker
1 witness
3 rhino
1 sigarda
/14

3 path
2 decay
1 m. pulse
3 deed
/9

4 green sun
4 therapy
2 top
1 nissa vf
/11

4 open = 60.

This is what I'd consider "stock" Junk-Fit as of late April 2017. That's 56 cards choices.
Personally, I'd run top #3 in place of tracker then add 4 wincons.
Some may advocate for raw card draw (truths, etc) + thragtusks. Not a bad call, though Tusk isn't an auto-win and is easily chumped.
Titans are an option. Value-city. Speaking of grindy, value plans, may I interest you in the slow-but-riculous Recurring Nightmare? Perhaps SFM? Feeling like a baller -- try Baneslayers.

Lord Rhino is still strong. He doesn't give a shit about Leovold and DRS. Trample is BIG. Nevertheless, 3 rhinos and sigarda won't win the day.
You need something else to win games. 1 Nissa isn't bad. Lots of folks like her. I wouldn't rule out Liliana of the Veil, but there are a ton of staples in the format that give her a hard time. Then again, she is never a bad play on turn 3.

[Luthiereisfun]

Is there a breakdown on the number of mana ramp/card draw that rhino fit should be running? I run a list that looks like this but bit feels kind of anemic.

3 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
4 verdant
3 windswept
1 flats
1 savannah
2 bayou
2 scrub land
1 tower

3 vet
3 drs
1 ooze
2 tracker
1 courser
1 witness
3 rhino
1 sigarda

4 therapy
3 top
3 path
1 innocent blood
2 thoughtsieze
2 decay
1 diabolic edict
3 deed
4 green sun

1 nissa vf

I'm having a lot of trouble with consistency and having the deck feel like there's any actual power to it. I find that making one play a turn as this deck is wont to do is not cutting it. What could I run that isn't se fit that helps with the consistency of drawing cards without turning the deck into a mess?

I think many people here have brought up good points.

In terms of Rhino/Junk Fit I think you really should be looking at the deck like a grindy midrange deck that stabilizes and pivots the game in its favor through better cards and CA.

On this topic I think CA is key for Rhino Fit to win. If you durdle to much and land one Rhino most legacy decks will be able to handle that just fine. But it is through overwhelming the opponent with threat after threat that one of them sticks and wins the game. I believe in legacy a Rhino/Sigarda/Nissa should be able to close out a game.

The other Nic Fit variants seem to benefit more from top imo. Top is a fantastic card. It's great filtering. If you are looking for control/lock/combo pieces top is your guy and nothing does it better. But I think Rhino Fit more than anything would be happy to see a GSZ/Rhino/Thragtusk/Combat Walker/Tracker/Sigarda etc.. really anything that is a threat. This is why I run 2x Tracker, 2x Painful Truths and 2x SDT. To me the CA has been better than the filtering. The filtering is still very important to our plan but I prefer extra Tracker/Truths in Rhino fit then an extra top.

I would look at trying to fit in a Thragtusk and even a Kaya Ghost Assassin. Kaya has been very good for me in this shell. Early her -2 starts to gain lots of CA. It can blink Thrag/Rhino/Witness/Rec Sage for lots of value that takes over. Even her drain is relevant imo. It's lifegain and reach. I have closed out games with Kaya where after 1-2 Rhino, them fetching, and a few hits from our creatures or DRS activations Kaya is able to just eek out the last few points of life loss needed.

Combo MU aside, I see our game plan priorities as such:

1) set up lands fast to cast big/impactful things.

2) have early interaction (removal/therapy) and sweepers (Deed/Deluge) to have a "pivot" point in games. This Pivot point is where we stabilize and we don't have to fear an immediate death from the opponent and we can really start to be proactive.

3) Start using our Truths/Trackers to gain CA over the opponent so that they can't keep up with us and start casting our bigger threats that just win the game.

I personally feel really comfortable with JUNK Fit but still find variants like Sneak Fit tricky to pilot. Take what I say with a grain of salt. Test out what others have said here and see what works for you.

[Brael]

Is there a breakdown on the number of mana ramp/card draw that rhino fit should be running? I run a list that looks like this but bit feels kind of anemic.

3 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
4 verdant
3 windswept
1 flats
1 savannah
2 bayou
2 scrub land
1 tower

3 vet
3 drs
1 ooze
2 tracker
1 courser
1 witness
3 rhino
1 sigarda

4 therapy
3 top
3 path
1 innocent blood
2 thoughtsieze
2 decay
1 diabolic edict
3 deed
4 green sun

1 nissa vf

I'm having a lot of trouble with consistency and having the deck feel like there's any actual power to it. I find that making one play a turn as this deck is wont to do is not cutting it. What could I run that isn't se fit that helps with the consistency of drawing cards without turning the deck into a mess?

There's three ways to go about this question.
1. Lower your curve to play more cards with less mana.
2. Increase your mana to play more cards with more mana.
3. Increase the impact from your cards so that each card goes further.

You've already ruled out point #1 so that just leaves #2 and #3. Lets focus on increasing mana first.

Veteran Explorer costs 1 and is worth a permanent +2 mana when it triggers. It's the best mana boost we have. Next is Phyrexian Tower which is also a 2 mana producer. Most run 1, but if you're looking to maximize mana production you need to be running more. After that is DRS which is a temporary +1 mana (eventually it will die), and after that is Sakura Tribe Elder which is a permanent +1. I agree with what others said earlier 4 Vet, 2 DRS, 1 Tribe Elder works very well and generally wants 7 basics to go with it. I would also recommend Crop Rotation, if nothing else it's a great way to get early Towers.

Vet/Therapy is a medium strength play, if you don't have stronger openings than that, I think you're doing something wrong. The stronger opening is Vet/Tower which generates 5 mana on T2. It's still 5 mana with Crop Rotation too, so maximizing the chance of that happening is good.

When it comes to your threats, if you're playing a Rhino game, you need a higher threat density. With just 3 Rhinos, they're all going to die and you'll be left with nothing to show for it. Make room for it by cutting some of that removal. You have 16 spells that interact right now, 12-13 is usually better. With those extra slots add more threats.

Now for #3 on my list. Tracker and Courser are pretty low impact cards for the type of game you're playing. You need quality not incremental advantage (especially Tracker where you don't have the mana to pop clues and use them right away). Look for more 4-6 drops.

[Brael]

Update on the paper league I'm playing. We've all been pretty lazy about actually playing our matches so they're happening slowly but I'm currently sitting at 7-0 and probably locked for T4.

I'm really liking how my list performs.

With summer coming I'll be out of school and doing a lot of travel for work. I generally like to travel light so I doubt I'll bring all my cards with me. Currently debating between a Junk or BG build for the summer. Alternatively, I just picked up an Underground Sea a few weeks ago so in theory I have a proper BUG manabase (though I don't own FoW's yet) so if something seems interesting there I would be willing to take the plunge.

In BG, I would just want to keep doing what I've been doing.
In Junk, I would want to develop my Ranger of Eos plan a bit further. Walking Ballista adds a whole new dimension to the card. Alternatively, SFM seems interesting.
In BUG, Trinket Mage interests me in BUG more than anything else... again Walking Ballista is pretty cool, but there was already a similar effect from Engineered Explosives.

[Luthiereisfun]

Update on the paper league I'm playing. We've all been pretty lazy about actually playing our matches so they're happening slowly but I'm currently sitting at 7-0 and probably locked for T4.

I'm really liking how my list performs.

With summer coming I'll be out of school and doing a lot of travel for work. I generally like to travel light so I doubt I'll bring all my cards with me. Currently debating between a Junk or BG build for the summer. Alternatively, I just picked up an Underground Sea a few weeks ago so in theory I have a proper BUG manabase (though I don't own FoW's yet) so if something seems interesting there I would be willing to take the plunge.

In BG, I would just want to keep doing what I've been doing.
In Junk, I would want to develop my Ranger of Eos plan a bit further. Walking Ballista adds a whole new dimension to the card. Alternatively, SFM seems interesting.
In BUG, Trinket Mage interests me in BUG more than anything else... again Walking Ballista is pretty cool, but there was already a similar effect from Engineered Explosives.

Ranger of Eos? Walking ballista?? I need to hear more!

[Brael]

Ranger of Eos? Walking ballista?? I need to hear more!

Ranger of Eos is a 4 mana 3 for 1, and puts a lot of power on the field. It's a very powerful card in SE style builds. The downside being that you can't tutor for it. I've played it as a 1 of a few times and always liked it, but I think it's possible to play it as a 2 of for more consistency.

Ballista is just the latest interesting thing to tutor, I've held off on it because Ballista, were $25 each which was too much, but at the $9 they are now I might be more willing to pick one up.

[mstephenson]

So after losing to my friend on czech pile because he always saw he jaces(I dont think this matchup should be bad for us, I think its good but could be wrong) I brewed up a pile with the idea of playing 4 jaces and winning with jace led to some interesting ideas. The first thing I decided I wanted to do is play innocent blood cause that card always seems like it should be good, especially with veteran explorer. So I only have creatures that I don't mind saccing maindeck. The next thing was that I wanted to play force to protect him and enough blue cards for force of will. So taking a note from other blue decks I decided to run 2 ponders at first and later up'd the count to 4 trimming 2 lands down to 20 because I was flooding a bit much for my liking. The sideboard is a bit of crapshoot because IDK what I really need there as with finals coming up I havent had time to just jam a bunch of games so I just threw some stuff together.

I figured you guys might like this and have some suggestions for it.

Innocent BUG

Creatures 9
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness

Planeswalkers 6
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Spells 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Force of will

Enchantments 3
3 pernicious Deed

Lands 20
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I like a Garruk Relentless in place of Ashiok. That list looks weird, I wish you could still play even just 1 GSZ.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[mstephenson]

I like a Garruk Relentless in place of Ashiok. That list looks weird, I wish you could still play even just 1 GSZ.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I personally have never been impressed with relentless.

I found that even with 9 green sun targets that they were very often dead in the late game so I dont really want 1 with 5 targets.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I personally have never been impressed with relentless.

I found that even with 9 green sun targets that they were very often dead in the late game so I dont really want 1 with 5 targets.
I didn't mean in the main for GSZ, I should have specified. I come from shardless and the Rock with a good opinion of Garruk, but perhaps that's just me. I just like that he can pop a Veteran Explorer and then flip. I think that is strong, but I haven't got this built yet, so I am on the outside looking in on this one.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Arianrhod]

Don't undersell Ashiok. The card can be extremely (and deceptively) powerful.

And yeah, Czech Pile should be a fine matchup. The deck is very reminiscent of Deathblade, which has historically been one of our best matchups.

[square_two]

Did some light testing with Nyx Fit this weekend, mostly preboarded games.

Started with running 2 Groves and Starfield, 1 less Decay, 2 less Souls than what was below.

Burn 1-2 - Collective Brutality and E Witness -> Brutality won me a game. Not really much to say about it :/
D&T 1-3 - Seemed odd how bad this seemed...maybe it was just variance. He was on a non-recruiter version with some Crusaders and couple Vryn Wingmare. The larger than usual number of non-creature spells meant that Thalia + Wingmare was a nightmare. Did a couple postboard games and it was 1-2 which still feels really odd.

Then I took out the Groves and Starfield, upping Decay count and adding more Souls. Groves felt so clunky and really unnecessary in game 1 - the more Souls then the more chance for Evo Leap working well, and I did see it work well a few times.

After those changes, beat D&T 2-0 (pre then post), and beat Elves 2-1 (pre - he had some poor draws though). Miracles 1-1 (both pre, his list was mentor heavy), though one of the games went long and I screwed up with my 2nd Rector target decision which lost me the game when he ran away with a Mentor token. Need more practice, but the way both games played out was very encouraging.

The power of Evo Leap is really there with Souls.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
2 Evolutionary Leap
1 Nether Void
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Sandwurm Convergence

2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Phyrexian Tower

Side is still largely untested:
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Golgari Charm
1 Humility
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Thoughtseize
1 Seal of Primordium

[Memories of the Time]

@Square_two: I've answered at your message without seeing your reply.

Now, i've just discussed the presence of stp, so:
@D&T: a version with also Vryn is obv worse for us, and this is another MU where i think that more ramp can give us way more speed than a spot removal. For example, i'm playing a single DRS or a Dryad, both good especially in a list with so many gsz.

As said by you, i'm really loving Souls too, and i can imagine to add the third one.

[Luthiereisfun]

So lads what shall we play instead of top?

[lowpass]

Sylvan Library?

[tilzinger]

So lads what shall we play instead of top?

With Deed? More Painful Truths I suppose.

[rubblekill]

Now siege rhino suddenly becomes the best card in the archetype? [emoji23]

[square_two]

Hard to say how this is for us. Losing Top is pretty big. I predict a pretty large increase in BUG and delver decks which should be a positive for us.

Our BUG fit simply starts running Brainstorm? Junk/Jund - either Libraries or more CA engines like Tracker seem like the best ways to go.

Might run some more of my BUG fit with 4 Trackers 3 Jace, and find something to fill in the 2 Top spots. Seemed like a pretty great delver killer.

[Memories of the Time]

I don't see nice things coming for us, guys. Let's hope that Burn and fast combo won't rise too much.

[Ricardio]

I am fucking stoked.

[rubblekill]

I don't see nice things coming for us, guys. Let's hope that Burn and fast combo won't rise too much.

Now I can devote literally the other half of the sideboard to storm. I think we are fine, really.
Discard is better now, and thrun becomes a real magic card. Terminus is unplayable. Jace becomes less threatening if they can't contain the board, and now they have to do it the classic and fair way.
So much deck building space is open now, and I'm not even taking only about this deck

[removedfromgame]

I hyperventilated a little bit. I'm so stressed out because of this. I just tweaked my list to reflect a lot of the suggestions you all gave me and it was running smooth losing top is horrifying. It was the best card in our deck. At least in rhino fit.

Guess I have to rely on library and truths and like.. nights whisper or some shit.

[Bobmans]

So, by default that means i drop Courser of Kruphix. With Top gone that opens 4 slots. For now i'll probably settle on 2x Painful Truths and 2x Sylvan Library as default for CA. I'll also probably drop Chandra, ToD in favor of Chandra, Flamecaller in the PFire Jund list.

[Luthiereisfun]

I hyperventilated a little bit. I'm so stressed out because of this. I just tweaked my list to reflect a lot of the suggestions you all gave me and it was running smooth losing top is horrifying. It was the best card in our deck. At least in rhino fit.

Guess I have to rely on library and truths and like.. nights whisper or some shit.

I agree losing top sucks. From my experience though Rhino Fit gains the most from this. Miracles was not a great matchup. I also feel like Rhino benefitted the least from top out of the Nic Fit variants. Rhino Fit has enough lifegain that running cards like painful truths/nights whisper don't hurt nearly as much and to me the deck just wanted threats and gas more then filtering to find specific cards.

Edit: I'd also like to add that the biggest reason to run top imo was it dodged pernicious deed.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Pouring one out for the only good guys that used top. RIP old-style nic fit.

[square_two]

Natural Order nic fit just became way more viable. Progenitus is looking great right now with Terminus gone and way less Council's Judgment to worry about.

[Brael]

So lads what shall we play instead of top?

I figured this would happen sooner or later. As far as SE is concerned it's basically a completely free switch to Sylvan Library. Mirri's Guile is possible as well, but I'm going to hold off on picking them up at the moment. Actually, in preperation for this announcement I just picked up 2 more Libraries to complete my playset, so that will do for the moment.

This change is actually good for us, Top lead to some really slow starts, but was necessary for it's power level. Starts that can take advantage of Phyrexian Tower will now be much better. I think we're going to need more discard going forward though, this is a very big boost for combo.

[Brael]

Now I can devote literally the other half of the sideboard to storm. I think we are fine, really.
Discard is better now, and thrun becomes a real magic card. Terminus is unplayable. Jace becomes less threatening if they can't contain the board, and now they have to do it the classic and fair way.
So much deck building space is open now, and I'm not even taking only about this deck

This was a huge boost for SE which has a lower curve and fell victim to Counterbalance more.

The biggest effect of this change is that I'm totally willing to drop Abrupt Decay for Fatal Push now.

Also, some interesting BUG tech since we won't have Library to guarantee Revolt triggers now is Oboro, Palace in the Clouds. Has a great Tireless Tracker interaction too.


So, by default that means i drop Courser of Kruphix. With Top gone that opens 4 slots. For now i'll probably settle on 2x Painful Truths and 2x Sylvan Library as default for CA. I'll also probably drop Chandra, ToD in favor of Chandra, Flamecaller in the PFire Jund list.

I disagree. Guile and Library both still enable the same Courser shenanigans. I do think that with Top gone to get something right away, Tireless Trackers stock rises a bit.

[Jain_Mor]

I'm thinking of playing legacy again with Nic Fit, have I missed anything since I was gone? :wink:

But yea, this seems like good news for us, opens up the format's room for more control decks, aka us

Makes combo stronger... but delver will still be around and we can stop focusing so much deck/sideboard space on miracles and even more on combo

[square_two]

I'm thinking of playing legacy again with Nic Fit, have I missed anything since I was gone? :wink:

But yea, this seems like good news for us, opens up the format's room for more control decks, aka us

Hm, are you up to speed on Sneak Fit? Latest Nyx Fit developments? (that might be gone now, Top was huge there) SE fit along with BG and other versions with Depths combo have also been discussed in past couple months.

I think we could brew with Natural Order again, I also think plain Rhinos + PTruths might just be the simple sweet spot to be at. BUG lists not as impacted by losing top. Meren + Titania just got way better - going to add Meren to my bug list for sure.

[Luthiereisfun]

So in a typical rhino list. I'm between adding truths vs library. In general I think SL is much better but in Nic Fit running SL with deed is awkward. Would it be reasonable to switch to Toxic Deluge in a SL list? That's a lot of life loss but Rhino has many ways to gain life. Maybe a split of truths/library and a split of deed and deluge?

Not sure

[Jain_Mor]

isn't leovald a huge thing now (especially with terminus worse), making library and truths worse compared to other CA engines like tracker, SFM, bob, meren, planeswalkers etc?

[Brael]

So in a typical rhino list. I'm between adding truths vs library. In general I think SL is much better but in Nic Fit running SL with deed is awkward. Would it be reasonable to switch to Toxic Deluge in a SL list? That's a lot of life loss but Rhino has many ways to gain life. Maybe a split of truths/library and a split of deed and deluge?

Not sure

I'll try to get you a list of lifegain creatures later. Some of my experiments with Bob have revolved entirely around cards that gain life. There's actually quite a few formidible ones out there. Scavenging Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Siege Rhino, it's definitely possible to string all of these cards together alongside Library.

Remember, it's OK to blow up your Library. Even if all you get out of it is one instance of topdeck manipulation and a 2 for 1, you got value out of it. More value than a SDT gives even. Alternatively, you could go to a build like mine that plays fewer Deeds.

Oh, don't get cocky about Miracles. They're still going to be a deck, and they still have Brainstorm+Jace to set up Terminus. You'll still need Lost Legacy against them to stop board wipes.

[Luthiereisfun]

I'll try to get you a list of lifegain creatures later. Some of my experiments with Bob have revolved entirely around cards that gain life. There's actually quite a few formidible ones out there. Scavenging Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Siege Rhino, it's definitely possible to string all of these cards together alongside Library.

Remember, it's OK to blow up your Library. Even if all you get out of it is one instance of topdeck manipulation and a 2 for 1, you got value out of it. More value than a SDT gives even. Alternatively, you could go to a build like mine that plays fewer Deeds.

Oh, don't get cocky about Miracles. They're still going to be a deck, and they still have Brainstorm+Jace to set up Terminus. You'll still need Lost Legacy against them to stop board wipes.

Junk SE fit definitely interests me more now. TBH I don't see Terminus being played. Engineered explosives and Verdict seem much better and what control decks will play as sweepers now imo. I like lost legacy still. Good against combo.

[Brael]

I'm thinking of playing legacy again with Nic Fit, have I missed anything since I was gone? :wink:

But yea, this seems like good news for us, opens up the format's room for more control decks, aka us

Makes combo stronger... but delver will still be around and we can stop focusing so much deck/sideboard space on miracles and even more on combo

Lots. Sneak Fit is a thing now, it's pretty popular. Nyx Fit (an enchantment build) is really cool and also popular. I'm doing my own thing with various BG and BGw builds based on the SE stuff we played around with last year.

The deck is doing better than ever. I suspect a UW control deck will remain in the format, but combo is going to gain metashare. Overall, probably a slight negative for us with potential spikes to huge positives when combo is hated out.

[Arianrhod]

Quick reaction:

1) to get this out of the way, Top was completely incorrect of a ban in my opinion. Terminus or Counterbalance were both much better options with less collateral damage. The Top ban was primarily championed by idiots with loudspeakers who should not be permitted to have any amount of weight lent to their opinions, because they don't understand the far-reaching consequences of the actions then endorse. This is roughly analogous to the Lodestone restriction in Vintage, IMO -- championed by the vocal minority, but which had poor consequences for the format (should've been Thorn of Amethyst).

2) regardless, this is the world we need to either choose to live in, or opt to not play anymore, so I will not be discussing my opinion on the ban further. If you wanted it, you got it. Time to move on.

3) Sneak gets hit arguably the hardest by this. Nyx is also /probably/ not very happy, but the additional consistency loaned by Evolutionary Leap makes it less awful for them. I think that this is an enormous hit to the archetype, mostly because the "best" Nic Fits have always been those which are centered around a combo. Unfortunately, being centered around a combo means an intrinsically higher amount of filtering is required. The "worse" Nic Fits -- meaning the midrange and control options -- are likely on par with or possibly even better than the combo versions now, which will PROBABLY end up being too unstable to function smoothly. I say probably, because I just got home from work and I haven't had time to fully process the big picture or begin developing lists.

4) One of Nic Fit's biggest strengths as an archetype is its raw adaptability. Once we know what we need to fight, we can adapt to it. Unfortunately, what it's looking like at first blush is that what we need to fight is going to be a rogue's gallery of Nic Fit's biggest predators. Elves is going to be everywhere. Lands is going to be everywhere. Various combo decks are getting a large uptick. Death and Taxes is likely the best non-blue deck in the format at this point both as a result of the impending meta and also as a result of their insane inherent consistency thanks to white recruiter and flickerwisp, along with palace jailer and SoFI giving them a draw engine.

4a) This likely means that we are going to need to go adventuring in order to find a new "best fit." It could be something reanimator-ish with Collective Brutality and Brainstorm. It could be a Collected Company variant. It could be something that we haven't even thought of as a possibility yet. Sneak escaped notice as a version for a long, long time - who knows what else is lurking?

4b) Expect this to result in more bans as time passes. Hitting Top is going to set off a chain reaction. I expect that within two years, Gaea's Cradle (or Natural Order) and Dark Depths will both be banned, and possibly Lion's Eye Diamond as well.

5) Sylvan Library is a shitty card with Miracles out of the format. Night's Whisper and Painful Truths are the biggest gainers for us out of this, with Oath of Nissa being worth considering for some versions, and Traverse the Ulvenwald also being an option for others. Diabolic Intent may also rise in favor. Basically, I see two ways forward: either we focus more on tutoring, or we focus more on drawing. Drawing weakens us to Leovold (which has otherwise been a card we could simply ignore), tutoring weakens us to hand and tempo disruption (and Mindcensor). This is one reason I cautiously like Nyx moving forward: it is already built heavily around tutoring. At the same time, without Top to filter lands and spells to achieve a good mix of both, the deck is going to have some really awful top-heavy draws, which is concerning.

6) I SUSPECT, but do not know (because intricacies of delver mirrors) that Grixis will move back to top dog in Delver land. BUG had the best Miracles matchup, per my understanding, and Grixis with Stifles should be well suited to out-tempoing BUG. This is relevant because it signifies the format speeding up -- one of the reasons we'd been enjoying success for a while is that the format was fairly slow -- most of the top decks gave us a lot of time to set up and overpower. That is no longer going to be true, I think.

I have a tremendous amount of work to do on this subject. I should have something a bit more detailed and, I hope, optimistic within a day or two. I will try to present a range of options across the spectrum of possible Nic Fits.

[Brael]

Junk SE fit definitely interests me more now. TBH I don't see Terminus being played. Engineered explosives and Verdict seem much better and what control decks will play as sweepers now imo. I like lost legacy still. Good against combo.

I guarantee Terminus will still see play as a 4 of. It can be setup with Ponder, Brainstorm, Jace, and Preordain, and it's the only sweeper fast enough to be deployed on turn 3 to deal with decks like Dredge and Aggro. Verdict is too slow, by the time you can cast it you'll be dead.

[Arianrhod]

Bonus quickhit: we really, really, really need to consider the BG<> versions. They may be the biggest gainers out of this whole mess.

[Jain_Mor]

Thanks for the summary Brael, and great analysis Arianrhod! I've been following Nyx Fit actually, but I think I'll be going to a tournament this weekend (prize is plane ticket, hotel and byes for GP Vegas, runner ups is duals) and so I'm limited to the cards I have for the moment. Will be testing tonight and tomorrow for sure, playing with a SE/card advantage BGw build that aims to beat delver and midrange G1 and combo sideboard.

Arianrhod, I agree that miracles will likely stick around but its share will go down.I always hated keeping decays in the deck because of Counter Balance when we already have deed, and devoting so many slots and other decisions to the matchup.

Edit: agreed on BG<> I've seen tourmanent reports recently with BG<> decks in legacy (I think with vet and therapy too). I didn't imagine that did I?

[Brael]

1) to get this out of the way, Top was completely incorrect of a ban in my opinion. Terminus or Counterbalance were both much better options with less collateral damage. The Top ban was primarily championed by idiots with loudspeakers who should not be permitted to have any amount of weight lent to their opinions, because they don't understand the far-reaching consequences of the actions then endorse. This is roughly analogous to the Lodestone restriction in Vintage, IMO -- championed by the vocal minority, but which had poor consequences for the format (should've been Thorn of Amethyst).

I agree that Counterbalance would have been better. Wizards has the (flawed IMO) argument of tournament logistics with SDT though, and if you read their reasons that was actually what did it. They said they were fine with SDT from a power level standpoint.

They did it in Vintage too. My beloved Gush is gone yet again (probably never to return) when the real culprit was Monastery Mentor and probably Workshops.



3) Sneak gets hit arguably the hardest by this. Nyx is also /probably/ not very happy, but the additional consistency loaned by Evolutionary Leap makes it less awful for them. I think that this is an enormous hit to the archetype, mostly because the "best" Nic Fits have always been those which are centered around a combo. Unfortunately, being centered around a combo means an intrinsically higher amount of filtering is required. The "worse" Nic Fits -- meaning the midrange and control options -- are likely on par with or possibly even better than the combo versions now, which will PROBABLY end up being too unstable to function smoothly. I say probably, because I just got home from work and I haven't had time to fully process the big picture or begin developing lists.


SE doesn't care. If you remember my posts over the past couple months I've already been in the mode of cutting Tops because I found the mana drain on them to slow things down too much. The SDT free hands have always been much more explosive. I *THINK* Sylvan Library is a very easy swap. It's more card advantage and a similar level of filtering at lower total mana spent (but more up front). I don't expect to take many cards off Library though because of Bob. I think Rhinos get hit pretty hard though.


4a) This likely means that we are going to need to go adventuring in order to find a new "best fit." It could be something reanimator-ish with Collective Brutality and Brainstorm. It could be a Collected Company variant. It could be something that we haven't even thought of as a possibility yet. Sneak escaped notice as a version for a long, long time - who knows what else is lurking?

Combo worries me. I seem to have a better combo matchup than most Fits but if it sees an uptick I'm going to have a lot of problems.

I maintain my opinion from the other day that Brutality isn't where we want to be. I like it as a 1 of SB card, but if we just want it for discard I like Duress more.



4b) Expect this to result in more bans as time passes. Hitting Top is going to set off a chain reaction. I expect that within two years, Gaea's Cradle (or Natural Order) and Dark Depths will both be banned, and possibly Lion's Eye Diamond as well.


Agreed 100%. Miracles was just barely keeping the format in line, without it (though I think a new UW control will rise) Chalice rather than Counterbalance becomes the Chief of Police and that's going to lead to multiple bannings in the future.


I have a tremendous amount of work to do on this subject. I should have something a bit more detailed and, I hope, optimistic within a day or two. I will try to present a range of options across the spectrum of possible Nic Fits.

It may be warranted to make a note at the top of the primer about SDT. Just about every list in it includes the card.

[Arianrhod]

I agree that Counterbalance would have been better. Wizards has the (flawed IMO) argument of tournament logistics with SDT though, and if you read their reasons that was actually what did it. They said they were fine with SDT from a power level standpoint.

They did it in Vintage too. My beloved Gush is gone yet again (probably never to return) when the real culprit was Monastery Mentor and probably Workshops.



SE doesn't care. If you remember my posts over the past couple months I've already been in the mode of cutting Tops because I found the mana drain on them to slow things down too much. The SDT free hands have always been much more explosive. I *THINK* Sylvan Library is a very easy swap. It's more card advantage and a similar level of filtering at lower total mana spent (but more up front). I don't expect to take many cards off Library though because of Bob. I think Rhinos get hit pretty hard though.



Combo worries me. I seem to have a better combo matchup than most Fits but if it sees an uptick I'm going to have a lot of problems.

I maintain my opinion from the other day that Brutality isn't where we want to be. I like it as a 1 of SB card, but if we just want it for discard I like Duress more.



Agreed 100%. Miracles was just barely keeping the format in line, without it (though I think a new UW control will rise) Chalice rather than Counterbalance becomes the Chief of Police and that's going to lead to multiple bannings in the future.



It may be warranted to make a note at the top of the primer about SDT. Just about every list in it includes the card.

Good to know about SE, although I would be very worried about Bob without Top. That's just me, though.

I'm only advocating Brutality as an option in a Reanimator shell. Beyond that, I do not like it, especially with Top gone now.

I'm planning on a more thorough overhaul of the primer, but I can quickly edit it to make any newcomers aware of the issue.

I am really, really not looking forward to redoing the primer again u_u

[Purple Blood]

How about Mirri's Guile as a replacement?

[Arianrhod]

Oh, also, banning Top for "time reasons" is a crock of shit. Hit fucking Counterbalance then. Top only took a bunch off the clock because they had to Top in response to literally every spell.

[Brael]

Good to know about SE, although I would be very worried about Bob without Top. That's just me, though.

I'm only advocating Brutality as an option in a Reanimator shell. Beyond that, I do not like it, especially with Top gone now.

I'm planning on a more thorough overhaul of the primer, but I can quickly edit it to make any newcomers aware of the issue.

I am really, really not looking forward to redoing the primer again u_u

Bob without Top isn't a big deal. The numbers work out in it's favor, at least with the way I've built my curve. Most of my Bobs are without Tops. You usually draw into one by the time life really matters, and the same logic holds true with Library. Right now I'm thinking of a 1/1 split with Library and Guile (because I don't want to lose too many 1 drops, the second Library tends to be much worse since you already burned your life on cards, and because my self enforced Bob limit of 75 mana pips must be obeyed... I'm currently at 74, so unless I find a cut that's relevant).

There's other ways to interact for Bob too such as Courser which gives you some degree of control over what you hit by manipulating shuffles, clues, etc.

[Brael]

How about Mirri's Guile as a replacement?

It's been used before. The problem with it, besides Deed is that it's straight card disadvantage. Top always cycled for a card, where as Guile is a straight -1 for a questionable effect.

I think that Library is generally more powerful. Same effect, breaks even on cards pretty easily.

[jbone2016]

So.....scroll rack just as bad as library....or a different aspect?

[pettdan]

4a) This likely means that we are going to need to go adventuring in order to find a new "best fit." It could be something reanimator-ish with Collective Brutality and Brainstorm. It could be a Collected Company variant. It could be something that we haven't even thought of as a possibility yet.

Yes, BUG Reanimator Fit doesn't run SDT, or at least not necessarily, and Leovold and Collective Brutality have appeared since last I tried it. May try it again soon, very fun deck btw.

Edit: the part about not playing top is potentially valid for most BUG lists actually..

[Lueseto]

I've been playing BUG and used to run 2 Tops alongside 4 Brainstorms... Definitely happy to be playing Brainstorm now, though I might squeeze a Sylvan Library into one of the two slots left. Might take Courser out too, she certainly loses power now, though the deck has still a ton of shuffles.

As for Terminus, I don't think it's good enough to keep seeing play. Top was not only a way to set it up (and more importantly float it as a second card until the board state was flooded enough for it to be worthy) but being able to sweep in the opponent's turn without burning a Brainstorm was huge. Even if it remains as part of a UW control deck, which I don't think so, that deck will have so much less power than miracles that I feel creature-heavy Nic Fit lists will flourish. Looking to play 3 Trackers now.

[Yutao]

I'm looking to sub out the two tops in Rhino Fit with another DRS and another Tireless Tracker. I'll roll some testing with diabolic intent, which seems to be a good option for finding SB bullets or deeds.

[sdematt]

So we just got WAY better. Hallelujah.

Top being canned hurts us, but it is easily replaced with Sylvan and Truths. Rhino has never had a meta without Miracles, and I think we can do VERY well here.

Consider the fact that worse Delver decks come back (good for us), Maverick (good), Zoo (probably also good), and some Storm variants (worse).

I think we are overall ahead in this. Bear with me while I dance. Any control deck that comes out is either going to be Thopters, Landstill, or SFM based. 2/3 hate Deed. This is fine.

Sigarda and Thrun increase their value in many of these matchups, as Terminus isn't around.

Let's start again.

-Matt

[Echelon]

So I'm on holiday for 3 days, pop in the forum for a sec and SDT is banned? Well, wtf lol.

Things are going to get interesting.

@Brael: want to start round 2 of SE Fit development when I get back?

We'll start may 8th, everybody is more than welcome to join!

[Bobmans]

So we just got WAY better. Hallelujah.

Top being canned hurts us, but it is easily replaced with Sylvan and Truths. Rhino has never had a meta without Miracles, and I think we can do VERY well here.

Consider the fact that worse Delver decks come back (good for us), Maverick (good), Zoo (probably also good), and some Storm variants (worse).

I think we are overall ahead in this. Bear with me while I dance. Any control deck that comes out is either going to be Thopters, Landstill, or SFM based. 2/3 hate Deed. This is fine.

Sigarda and Thrun increase their value in many of these matchups, as Terminus isn't around.

Let's start again.

-Matt
Just mashed together Quad Rhino with 2 Bananaslayer Angel and Sigarda. Back to a more agressive build. 2 PTruth and 2 Library, 60 card main with 21 lands. No 6 drop. Its in my sig. I'm pretty excited, whatever happens.

[Brael]

Stuff came up and I won't be able to get to that list of lifegain creatures I promised. Off the top of my head though is Obstinate Baloth, Siege Rhino, Finks, Ooze, Archagnel of Thune, Spike Feeder, Courser of Kruphix, Deathrite Shaman, Thragtusk, and Umezawa's Jitte. There's plenty there to make something with the ability to get a lot of draws out of Sylvan Library.

Edit: Decided on what I'm doing for my build too. -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 SDT, +1 Fatal Push, +2 Sylvan Library. This keeps me within my mana curve requirements and still enables some filtering/draws.

[Arianrhod]

Here's some preliminary thoughts and decklists for y'all:

Expected new metagame (tier 1.5+):
--------------------------
lands, elves, DnT, storm, show and tell, shardless, aluren, eldrazi / dragonstompy, delver (mostly bug and grixis)
--------------------------

conclusions we can draw from the above metagame:

Note: I expect Food Chain to fall off somewhat short-term because Miracles was one of the deck's best matchups. Eventually, I think it will pick back up as Abrupt Decay disappears from the format (more on this later).

Blood moon is likely very good, which suggests that Dragonstompy will be the favored Chalice deck. Possibly Big Red or some other deviant, but Dragonstompy is probably the best version of the red stompy shell atm.

Sweepers are about 50% effective. When you need them, you really need them -- but the rest of the time they'll be kind of mediocre. Spot removal that doesn't hit non-creature permanents or Merit Lage is probably not good enough. 3-mana removal spells, Path to Exile / StP, and edicts (to the slaughter) are likely good, with other spot removal falling off quite hard (especially Abrupt Decay).

Discard spells are kind of junky. Permanent-based hate solutions are likely better, but the ones in question need to be carefully selected.

5 of those decks are flat combo decks. The remaining 4 win by overwhelming advantage accrued through subsequent turns. I would say that, if we haven't done something backbreaking by turn 4 in the new format, we're not going to get the chance to. The combo decks will have killed us and the advantage decks will have developed too far of a lead.

This concerns me with regards to Rhino. Historically, Rhino has not had the best matchups vs the above decks, and I'm not confidant in the Top ban helping that. I think we need to be either more controlling/disruptive or more aggressive/proactive than Rhino is capable of being -- that middle ground just isn't going to be a good place to be, I think. With that in mind, here are some speculative lists:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Night's Whisper
2 Diabolic Intent

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sneak Attack

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
1 Primeval Titan
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Engineered Plague
2 Fatal Push
1 Chalice of the Void

-----------------------

New version of Sneak was, of course, my first look. I think that spot removal is going to be absolutely ass moving forward. This version runs very light on removal, with some slight backup from Huntmaster and Inferno. Huntmaster and Thrag provide the lifegain to compensate for Night's Whisper, as well as extra bodies for Diabolic Intent, which will help tie the combo together.

Two copies of Intent necessitate the presence of Dryad Arbor, to turn extra lands mid/late game into a tutor. It does also turn Zenith@0 into a draw spell with a Tracker, which is minor but might matter somewhat.

Primeval moves to the board now that his primary reason for existing maindeck is gone. He might not even be needed, but I want to keep him in the board just in case. The ability to run a Chalice of the Void out of the board to tutor for is one of my favorite features of this list, and will likely end up in other versions as well.

Basically, the maindeck is focused on doing what it does best and only runs minimal interaction, favoring its own gameplan instead of interacting with the opponent. We still have the Deeds, we still have the Pulse, Inferno + Hunts, Sneak + Emrakul, Therapies, etc -- but it's noticeably less than we once had, for sure.

The sideboard has a lot of powerful but specific answers. This is definitely a sideboard that is built with Demonic Tutor in mind. Storm is likely unwinnable, but I don't think that it's even worth trying to fix that matchup, moving into the new world. We have a Chalice to tutor for, we have Lost Legacy to hopefully strip something important quickly, and beyond that, we just focus on our own deck and trying to Sneak them as quickly as possible. Other than Storm, I think that this sideboard matches up fairly well vs the expected metagame.

------------------------

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ancient Stirrings

2 Crop Rotation

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Fatal Push
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 To the Slaughter

Colorless was where I wanted to look next. Not going to pretend this isn't rough, but there's a lot going on here that I like.

Ancient Stirrings is a particularly powerful selection card. It sucks that it loses Top as a hit, but it is arguably better at being Traverse the Ulvenwald than Traverse is -- it's lands early game, disruption mid game, and a wincon late game. A pair of Crop Rotations help give the deck resilency against Wasteland while also increasing the number of broken starts it is capable of.

While this deck has even less removal (1 EE, 2 Deed, 1 Ulamog), it does have the full set of Thought-Knots to help out, which makes the deck fairly disruptive. Otherwise, it is once again going to do what it does -- the full set of Trackers should allow the deck to keep up and run away with some games, while the Stirrings help to smooth out the early game. A pair of Ancient Tombs help make early Thought-Knots more viable, as well as helping to cast the big guns and ALSO speeding up your anti-combo sideboard hate: the full playset of Chalice of the Void, which can additionally be found by Ancient Stirrings. This allows you to dig incredibly deep with a Stirrings to find meaningful interaction on turn 1 vs combo -- even just a Chalice on 0 is amazing vs Storm and can slow Show and Tell by a not-irrelevant amount of time. Chalice is also great vs Elves, for obvious reasons.

Wurmcoil helps with Eldrazi and the BUG decks, TTS is generic planeswalker removal (and also helps vs Show and Tell and Merit Lage), the rest is pretty standard.

-------------------------

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Atraxa, Preator's Voice
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Night's Whisper
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Path to Exile
1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

sb::
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Fatal Push
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Celestial Purge
1 To the Slaughter
2 Lost Legacy
1 Reclamation Sage

This is my first stab at a controlling white list. Atraxa is present as a zenithable Baneslayer first, and as counter manipluation second. The Island may not be necessary, but I'd start with it and find out rather than the reverse. Only one Diabolic Intent can be supported here, I feel. Some number of Lingering Souls is also worth a half a thought, but space feels pretty tight -- I couldn't get the 2nd Tracker I wanted, either.

The removal suite in this deck seems like it should be favorably positioned against the upcoming format. Path and StP can be debated all day -- I'm personally worried about Merit Lage, and you'll never, ever kill them with 20 extra life, so I opted for Path. I also feel like the ramp has fringe benefits vs decks you don't want to acceleration (ie you can Path your Vet vs Storm).

The sideboard looks like hot fire. The hateful bears (and tutorable Chalice) is where I want to move with my sideboarding, along with a move to Lost Legacy for a little extra speed. Thoughtseize seems really bad to me, and Surgical seems even worse. The board also has a good, wide range of additional removal options.

[Brael]

Good lists. I like your thoughts on removal. I'm going to consider them myself.

I 100% agree that Chalice is going to be an issue. I'll take that prediction a step further though. Without the Top/CB lock, a Chalice (most often Chalice for 1) is going to be the biggest policeman in the format. Anyone can play it, and anyone can land it for one easily.

I think this is going to up the CMC of our deck a little. I'm going to stick with my Crop Rotation plan for now, since it leads into Towers and explosive openings but that's very tenative. Chalice on 1 ruins that plan pretty hard.

Elves is going to require a different removal set. I'm pretty interested in some Golgari Charms right now in the SB. The same holds true for Toxic Deluge. Some other decks will be bringing in Library to replace Top too, so Charm should pull double duty there.

D&T is basically unchanged. Unless they start running Mirran Crusaders again.

With Storm, going up to 4 Lost Legacy might not be the worst idea in the world. I've been running 2 and it's been solid. 4 to really deal with combo probably holds some merit though even though I'm not often a fan of 4 of's in the SB.

I've been leaning towards the idea of some MB Lost Legacy even, this could be a good format for that. But I don't know where I would make the cuts yet.

[Brael]

One more post. Here's the adjustments I made to my build

Summary:
-1 Fetch, +1 Tower. Tower starts are the fastest, I'm worried about Chalice on 1 messing that up
-2 SDT, +2 Sylvan Library. Ban changes.
-1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Fatal Push. Hits more creatures, helps keep the curve in tact.
-1 Deed +1 Deluge. Keeps curve in tact, diversifies answers, helps preserve Library. MB because of Elves.
-1 Geist, +1 Pulse. Alters the threat/answer balance a bit, but I agree with the above post about this being the time to push our 3 CMC removal. Giest got the cut, because without Miracles I don't need a hasted way to smack a PW right now.

SB: Massive changes. Dropped the Dark Depths plan for now. With that looking to be the formats control deck, the combo has too much of a bullseye on it. Instead I added more threats/answers.
-3 DD, -2 Stage +2 Lost Legacy, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Carpet of Flowers. Carpet is speculative, without Miracles there's fewer decks we want it against, but there are a few like S&T and Shardless.


Land (23)

2x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dryad Arbor
5x Forest
1x Maze of Ith
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Windswept Heath

Enchantment (3)

1x Pernicious Deed
2x Sylvan Library

Creature (16)

1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Dark Confidant
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Veteran Explorer

Instant (7)

2x Abrupt Decay
2x Crop Rotation
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Fatal Push

Planeswalker (2)

2x Nissa, Vital Force

Sorcery (10)

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15)

2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Crop Rotation
2x Deathrite Shaman
2x Golgari Charm
1x Karakas
4x Lost Legacy
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Treetop Village

[SpaceOwl]

First post, I guess. Been playing Magic since Apocalypse in various forms, mostly EDH. I have been wanting to get into Legacy for years and finally made the plunge and put together Sneaky Fit and Rhino Fit on MTGO last week. Learning this deck has been a blast! I bought my duals and fetches for both variants yesterday in paper, but now that Legacy is going nuts I think I will hold off on grabbing anything other than the core cards (Veteran Explorer, CT, GSZ, etc.) in paper until things settle down a little bit and the meta is more established.

That said, I've been playing all day since I got home from work, trying out new cards and whatnot. So far I have been liking Painful Truths replacing my SDT. It can be a bit awkward drawing the weird one-ofs we tend to run in Nic Fit so I do miss the filtering of SDT just a tiny bit, but overall I don't miss it too much. Sylvan Library has been okay, super good vs. combo to see more potential answers. I rarely deed it away against combo as well. (For whatever that's worth, coming from someone who has only been playing Legacy for a week.)

[rubblekill]

New Vizier might actually be viable as a 1 of in rhino? Since I'm expecting to see less plows he is unkillable, has a nice booty and gives CA/selection through fetches? And unlike courser he doesn't show our top to the opponent (the real reason courser is bad).
I think this is the time of the rhino resurgence. Sigarda (and thrun) suddenly are a LOT better now. 2-3 truths might be the replacement of top in that build.

[Navsi]

New Vizier might actually be viable as a 1 of in rhino? Since I'm expecting to see less plows he is unkillable, has a nice booty and gives CA/selection through fetches? And unlike courser he doesn't show our top to the opponent (the real reason courser is bad).
I think this is the time of the rhino resurgence. Sigarda (and thrun) suddenly are a LOT better now. 2-3 truths might be the replacement of top in that build.

I dunno about less Plow. Stoneblade will be around more now.

[rubblekill]

I dunno about less Plow. Stoneblade will be around more now.

Possibly, but it doesn't hurt as a 1 of for the late game.

Can we all talk about all the sb slots that now become open thanks to this format being actually enjoyable again?

How can we fill the space? What do we remove from the side?

I think some number of golgari charm and/or deluge are a must (elves) now. Now I can remove the three (!!!!!) chokes from the side of my GB Fit deck.

I think that now I have the space to finally play 4 leylines of the void to auto win (sort of) any kind of gy match up. Reanimator and lands got a boost from this ban, and 4 leylines (with maindeck drs and ooze) solve the problem.

[Bobmans]

I think that now I have the space to finally play 4 leylines of the void to auto win (sort of) any kind of gy match up. Reanimator and lands got a boost from this ban, and 4 leylines (with maindeck drs and ooze) solve the problem.

Good point, we could probably get away with running 3 in the board, since we can easily cast the card.

[rubblekill]

Good point, we could probably get away with running 3 in the board, since we can easily cast the card.

The point is that LotV doesn't have that sweet ETB effect, unlike RiP: so the key benefit of having 4 leylines is achieved due to the increased chance of having the auto win in the opener.
If we cast one leylines their shit remains in the yard and that can lead only to bad things for us. Plus if we get to 4 mana we were going to win the gy matchup anyways (I'm not talking about lands here).
I like the splash damage against storm, although surgical is better in that matchup.

[rubblekill]

And I strongly disagree with Arian (is this the first time? [emoji4]) on the discard spells being worse now. Instead I think discard effects are even better: we are going to see more stoneforges and discard snipes their stuff from their hand. On the top of that, discard is better against all the combo we are going to see.
1 mana discard was bad against miracles thanks to counterbalance, now that card doesn't exist anymore.

[Warden]

Call me crazy, but I think Nic Fit benefits from modal type cards. Especially with a format in flux, I want to have brutality and liliana as of this post. My rationale is that both of those cards easily fit into anyone's list and have the flex to play on-curve as additional discard (therapy, brutality, liliana) or removal. The larger question mark is "wtf she'll do you run said cards in?"
I PM'ed Kevin and tossed around the idea of BG reanimator fit. I just can't get the packages to work in 60 cards so I might as well ask it here. I think you can fit entomb/buried alive + reanimate/exhume/animate dead + brutality/therapy/liliana + finishers. Not sure how it all works out. It is not sneak fit, which can be nic fit but laterally change gears for the combo kill. This would be a more dedicated game plan. You win through griselbrand, Iona, inkwell, and elesh.

[rubblekill]

Call me crazy, but I think Nic Fit benefits from modal type cards. Especially with a format in flux, I want to have brutality and liliana as of this post. My rationale is that both of those cards easily fit into anyone's list and have the flex to play on-curve as additional discard (therapy, brutality, liliana) or removal. The larger question mark is "wtf she'll do you run said cards in?"
I PM'ed Kevin and tossed around the idea of BG reanimator fit. I just can't get the packages to work in 60 cards so I might as well ask it here. I think you can fit entomb/buried alive + reanimate/exhume/animate dead + brutality/therapy/liliana + finishers. Not sure how it all works out. It is not sneak fit, which can be nic fit but laterally change gears for the combo kill. This would be a more dedicated game plan. You win through griselbrand, Iona, inkwell, and elesh.

Doesn't seem where we want to be since now this format is going to see a lot more DRSs..I hope I'm wrong though.

[Megadeus]

Call me crazy, but I think Nic Fit benefits from modal type cards. Especially with a format in flux, I want to have brutality and liliana as of this post. My rationale is that both of those cards easily fit into anyone's list and have the flex to play on-curve as additional discard (therapy, brutality, liliana) or removal. The larger question mark is "wtf she'll do you run said cards in?"
I PM'ed Kevin and tossed around the idea of BG reanimator fit. I just can't get the packages to work in 60 cards so I might as well ask it here. I think you can fit entomb/buried alive + reanimate/exhume/animate dead + brutality/therapy/liliana + finishers. Not sure how it all works out. It is not sneak fit, which can be nic fit but laterally change gears for the combo kill. This would be a more dedicated game plan. You win through griselbrand, Iona, inkwell, and elesh.
This theoretical deck may want some number of Fauna Shaman as well. At worst it can pitch a fatty and get you something dumb like Karmic Guide

[emuhell]

... This would be a more dedicated game plan. You win through griselbrand, Iona, inkwell, and elesh.

There are 2 Reanimator variants out there with a very dedicated gameplan, winning with said creatures.
I honestly don't think, a dedicated reanimator NicFit variant could do better than them.

What the NicFit core does, is giving you (a)symmetric access to a lot of lands. If you try to reanimate creatures (fast) why would you need that core?

[square_two]

I went with -1 Decay, -3 Tops, +2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Sylvan Library in my Nyx List that I posted earlier. -3 Carpets, +2 Lost Legacy, +1 Deluge in the side. That's I think about the most I can do with the cards I have online atm. Started a league last night and am 1-2 in it - beat bug delver, lost to ur delver and omnitell.

I don't have Meren (30 tix!!) to put in my bug list but she should be there.

[emuhell]

Way to go after Top-ban(?):
With the threat of Terminus diminished, a strategy to build a board aggressively can be generally accepted.
For NicFit this also includes Dryad Arbor.

About the Meta:
A lot of decks depended on Miracles being the "fun police".
"Control" decks like Stoneblade, 4c/Grixis Control or BUG didn't really have to prepare for swarming strategies, because those simply couldn't get past the early Terminus. If any at all, there is 1 Toxic deluge in 75 cards.
For me the question is, if swarming decks make a comeback or not. Merfolk? Zoo?
If you look at a pre-Miracles Metagame (http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=56&f=LE&meta=61) the top aggro decks were Merfolk, Maverick, Bant and Zoo. Not much left of those today.

I say if those decks make a comeback, we are well positioned and deed will be great again.
If the meta completely degenerates into dominant combo variants and decks to punish them - well, we still can beat one half of that.

[Warden]

Doesn't seem where we want to be since now this format is going to see a lot more DRSs..I hope I'm wrong though.

I think this is a bit hyperbole. I still kick ass with large KotRs despite DRS being a format staple. Likewise, reanimator is already a thing (and doing well). The presence of DRS doesn't automatically invalidate GY strategies.


This theoretical deck may want some number of Fauna Shaman as well. At worst it can pitch a fatty and get you something dumb like Karmic Guide

Thanks for the advice! Fauna may be a better setup, as it aids the core Nic Fit experience as well as the reanimator plan. There's also the idea of Pod with a reanimator/karmic guide spin. Karmic is quite playable @ CMC 5.


There are 2 Reanimator variants out there with a very dedicated gameplan, winning with said creatures.
I honestly don't think, a dedicated reanimator NicFit variant could do better than them.

What the NicFit core does, is giving you (a)symmetric access to a lot of lands. If you try to reanimate creatures (fast) why would you need that core?

Tbh, it's something I'd like to venture into. I am not declaring it a superior product. But look at SneakFit. You're essentially stating "Why bother with SneakFit when Sneak/Show.dec already exists?" It's so easy to write off strategies because a dedicated deck already exists. I value your points about Nic Fit's shell benefiting from rapid basic land acceleration. That's certainly true. It's definitely something I still want to find a way to leverage.

[emuhell]

Tbh, it's something I'd like to venture into. I am not declaring it a superior product. But look at SneakFit. You're essentially stating "Why bother with SneakFit when Sneak/Show.dec already exists?" It's so easy to write off strategies because a dedicated deck already exists. I value your points about Nic Fit's shell benefiting from rapid basic land acceleration. That's certainly true. It's definitely something I still want to find a way to leverage.

I am sorry if I sounded overly harsh. You should definitely try to make it work!

SneakFit is able to cast its creatures (well, not Emrakul). In fact, the deck works fine without and very good with Sneak attack.

Maybe a Reanimator deck that also casts its creatures could be a thing.
I played Grisly Salvage + Unburial Rites (+Faithless Looting) in standard a few years ago. A deck that could heavily support Liliana of the Veil.

[Arianrhod]

I am sorry if I sounded overly harsh. You should definitely try to make it work!

SneakFit is able to cast its creatures (well, not Emrakul). In fact, the deck works fine without and very good with Sneak attack.

Maybe a Reanimator deck that also casts its creatures could be a thing.
I played Grisly Salvage + Unburial Rites (+Faithless Looting) in standard a few years ago. A deck that could heavily support Liliana of the Veil.

Yeah, that's the idea, I think. Or at least, that was what I was doing when ReaniFit was the way to go in Dig Through Time the format. Grave Titan is a hell of a thing to both reanimate and also cast. It operated along the way axis that Sneak does currently.

Also, I have won multiple games casting Emrakul, thank you very much :3

[Ulysse95]

Yeah, that's the idea, I think. Or at least, that was what I was doing when ReaniFit was the way to go in Dig Through Time the format. Grave Titan is a hell of a thing to both reanimate and also cast. It operated along the way axis that Sneak does currently.

Also, I have won multiple games casting Emrakul, thank you very much :3

Yes, I agree with Arian and Warden.

Lately I was trying to insert 1/2 corpse dance into sneak fit but I prefered Nissa. But I still want to try to build a G/B version with it. In Nic fit you can easily afford the buyback and not targetting reanimate assure you to gain something, even if it wasn't your first choice. And obviously, the instant speed allow you some dirty tricks.
Was thinking about unburrial rite and LED and a new flash idea come to me: new vizir is also really good with LED in a rea sheld... You can assume you're at least 7/8 mana of any color to cast your top deck crea card. Meren buy you back your dudes... Needs to work on it...
But for now I'm to excited buy news Nyx fit options (new enchants then topless )

[Navsi]

But for now I'm to excited buy news Nyx fit options (new enchants then topless )

I'm on this right now:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collective Brutality
1 Painful Truths
2 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Evolutionary Leap
1 Sylvan Library
1 Nether Void
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Cruel Reality
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Starfield of Nyx

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
1 Living Plane
1 Humility
1 Chromanticore
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Golgari Charm
2 Lost Legacy

Curse maindeck without Humility/Plane is a bit awkward, but if Elves, D&T and Young Pyromancer are all going to be more prevalent I think it's probably worth it. Chromanticore is there pretty much 100% for Burn, since you can sideboard out Leaps and other garbage 5-drops for him and Sanctity.

Starfield remains in the deck for three reasons:
- Deed is looking really strong right now, and if we use one, Rector into Starfield becomes a hard lock.
- Collective Brutality is a great card and I want to be able to use it well - being able to confidently pitch haymakers like CReality and Convergence helps. Also makes it easier to play Chromanticore.
- I want more recursion than just a singleton Witness, especially when there are a few 1-ofs which are critical in some matchups. Between Starfield and Nissa, I think Starfield has more upsides (mainly because we have other ways of killing JTMS now).

[Arianrhod]

I'm on this right now:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collective Brutality
1 Painful Truths
2 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Evolutionary Leap
1 Sylvan Library
1 Nether Void
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Cruel Reality
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Starfield of Nyx

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
1 Living Plane
1 Humility
1 Chromanticore
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Golgari Charm
2 Lost Legacy

Curse maindeck without Humility/Plane is a bit awkward, but if Elves, D&T and Young Pyromancer are all going to be more prevalent I think it's probably worth it. Chromanticore is there pretty much 100% for Burn, since you can sideboard out Leaps and other garbage 5-drops for him and Sanctity.

Starfield remains in the deck for three reasons:
- Deed is looking really strong right now, and if we use one, Rector into Starfield becomes a hard lock.
- Collective Brutality is a great card and I want to be able to use it well - being able to confidently pitch haymakers like CReality and Convergence helps. Also makes it easier to play Chromanticore.
- I want more recursion than just a singleton Witness, especially when there are a few 1-ofs which are critical in some matchups. Between Starfield and Nissa, I think Starfield has more upsides (mainly because we have other ways of killing JTMS now).

I would probably cut Cruel Reality and the Recruiter for more draw spells. Maybe cut the Painful Truths, too, to make room for 2 Night's Whispers and a Diabolic Intent? I feel like trying to run both Cruel Reality and Sandwurm is asking for a lot, and Cruel Reality doesn't even seem that good to me, honestly.

E: also, Golgari Charm doesn't do nearly enough vs Elves. I've tried it and been consistently disappointed in it. They have too many 2/2s. Engineered Plague can still annoy them because it's a static effect; Deluge is likely the best bet. You need a fast -2/-2 sweeper followed by a Deed, followed by starting to lock them out.

Also, we NEED to be concerned about Progenitus postboard. Without Terminus around, Progenitus's stock is enormously higher and we WILL lose to him.

[Navsi]

Cruel Reality kills Progenitus.

[Bobmans]

Cruel Reality kills Progenitus.

Elves will have plenty of creatures to sac to CR.

[Brael]

Deluge for 10 kills Progenitus (and everything else).

Lost Legacy takes out Natural Order.

If you need an enchantment specifically, Nevermore also takes out Natural Order.

[MDHackbert]

Perish also kills everyone.

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[Warden]

Perish also kills everyone.

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It's quite a beating for them to come back to. The issue I have with toxic/perish/deed is surviving to 3 mana. I think fatal push needs more love, as 95% of elves.dec will be playing 1 or 2 drops. Brutality also a beating for them (upside to knock out a dude AND catch glimpse/NO/zenith in hand)

[Megadeus]

Being able to hit their initial dude basically assures you the ability to untap with 3 mana so yeah. Spot removal is not end all, but it bridges the gap and gets you where you need to be.

[square_two]

It's quite a beating for them to come back to. The issue I have with toxic/perish/deed is surviving to 3 mana. I think fatal push needs more love, as 95% of elves.dec will be playing 1 or 2 drops. Brutality also a beating for them (upside to knock out a dude AND catch glimpse/NO/zenith in hand)

Yet another reason why I'm an advocate for 1cmc removal. If you are on the draw and can kill their first creature, it usually provides you with an extra turn. Decay/Brutality will get you through a lot of matchups but having some action on turn 1 is going to do you well against plenty others.

Edit: Megadeus best me to it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Not in lieu of Deed.

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[mstephenson]

Yet another reason why I'm an advocate for 1cmc removal. If you are on the draw and can kill their first creature, it usually provides you with an extra turn. Decay/Brutality will get you through a lot of matchups but having some action on turn 1 is going to do you well against plenty others.

Edit: Megadeus best me to it.

This is what makes push so good IMO, and it means you dont have to play white for swords(or path but that kinda defeats the purpose in some cases).

And Megadeus also beat me to it.

[Brael]

Yet another reason why I'm an advocate for 1cmc removal. If you are on the draw and can kill their first creature, it usually provides you with an extra turn. Decay/Brutality will get you through a lot of matchups but having some action on turn 1 is going to do you well against plenty others.

Edit: Megadeus best me to it.

Dismembers stock might go up here. It's yet another thing that costs life, but it's 1 mana that dodges Chalice.

[mstephenson]

Dismembers stock might go up here. It's yet another thing that costs life, but it's 1 mana that dodges Chalice.

Good point, but I have beat eldrazi when the chaliced on when and my had was pushx3 vet brainstorm. So I dont really know if we need stuff that dodges chalice if that was just an anomaly.

[Plm]

Hi guys :smile:

Here is my curent list, everything is in flux.


4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Eternal Witness
3 Lingering Souls

2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Evolutionary Leap
1 diabolic intent

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 toxic deluge
2 Pernicious Deed

2 Sterling Grove
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Nether Void
1 Cruel Reality
1 Sandwurm Convergence

6 basics
4 duals
8 fetchs
2 tower
2 cavern

Top get replaced by intent, brutality and leap. intent to tutor, brutality to avoid having sandwurm in hand and leap to go crazy with souls... I wished so hard they banned terminus.
At least, now that legacy is played topless I'm gonna see a lot more big boobs :smile: but they gonna be sweaty and hairy :cry:

Deluge instead of one deed to be faster.

Stil not convinced by void, kindy clunky with explorer but might be necessary.

We don't need to be concerned by progenitus, we play cruel reality :smile: (édit : damn' you guys type so quick)

For me the goal of the deck is to be as ininteractive as possible (creature less build, cavern) and to pack as much disruption as possible because the "combo" isn't a) a hard lock b) a fast combo or c) a fast kill
so I need a shit load of interaction (and brutality does the job)

[Jain_Mor]

Since discards stock is going up (no top, more combo), the printing of fatal push gives black a 1 mana removal spell worthy of legacy, and decay is less relevant now, I've been thinking about stoking up the two drop slot with card advantage in hymn to tourach and sylvan library for a GB build that splashes white for some rhinos, sigarda and sideboard cards (like teeg, spirit of the labia and other hatebears). Perhaps some pushes should be StP or Path because of anglers and reality smashers, but the appeal of not really requiring white mana (especially in the first turns) is quite strong. Tusk and Thrun (who gets so much better now) take care of those ground beaters too. Thoughts?

Tbh I would probably play Nyx Fit but I can't get the cards quick enough for the tournament i'm suddenly now attending on sunday, so will be sticking with some variation of GBw

[Brael]

Since discards stock is going up (no top, more combo), the printing of fatal push gives black a 1 mana removal spell worthy of legacy, and decay is less relevant now, I've been thinking about stoking up the two drop slot with card advantage in hymn to tourach and sylvan library for a GB build that splashes white for some rhinos, sigarda and sideboard cards (like teeg, spirit of the labia and other hatebears). Perhaps some pushes should be StP or Path because of anglers and reality smashers, but the appeal of not really requiring white mana (especially in the first turns) is quite strong. Tusk and Thrun (who gets so much better now) take care of those ground beaters too. Thoughts?

Tbh I would probably play Nyx Fit but I can't get the cards quick enough for the tournament i'm suddenly now attending on sunday, so will be sticking with some variation of GBw

I've been tinkering a lot with white. I've got a pretty good UW shell right now using Chalice, Sanctum Prelate, SFM, Judges Familiar, and Spell Queller. Plus the usuals.

Now, that's not Nic Fit but my point is this: White is still ridiculously strong.

The pillars of Legacy are including at least 2 of the three in every deck, discard, counters, and removal. That's going to be even more true with everything being wide open for the next few weeks. Proceed as if every card in Miracles is still in the meta, just not in that exact configuration. Because I'm pretty sure it will be.

I guess my point is, general cards are where you want to be right now. I still like Abrupt Decay over Push, and I really like Maelstrom Pulse right now.

Vary your curve, Prelate+Chalice will be a thing.

[Ralf]

Hello,

I've revamped an old list (not so old) as I believe since Top's departure we could be THE CONTROL deck to beat.

Anyway, I'll spare you my usual "blabla" because if you wanna dig into these ideas, I've already shared quite a bit about it.
Here is the list.

Wish Fist by Ralf
(61 cards)
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs

2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Pernicious Deed

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cunning Wish
3 Negate
4 Brainstorm

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Explore
2 Ponder
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald

(14 cards)
SB: 1 Empty the Pits
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Crypt Incursion
SB: 1 Hatred
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Consume the Meek
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard is missing a card right now. If someone has a brilliant idea, don't hesitate to chime in !
Anyway it is definitely possible to play 61/14 cards.

As always, have fun but avoid this deck if the hard control route isn't your way...

Regards,

Ralf

PS: one could shave a strix for a snapcaster for more utility tools. I quadlazzered for the sake of it.

[Brael]

As always, have fun but avoid this deck if the hard control route isn't your way...


I actually really like new Nissa in this sort of list, and I say that as someone who doesn't like new Nissa. Pitches to FoW, great interaction with Jace (and finds Jace), low mana investment to get on the board, and she ticks up aggressively.

You've just inspired me to try some more BUG brewing.

[Ralf]

I actually really like new Nissa in this sort of list, and I say that as someone who doesn't like new Nissa. Pitches to FoW, great interaction with Jace (and finds Jace), low mana investment to get on the board, and she ticks up aggressively.

You've just inspired me to try some more BUG brewing.

I have never been a fan of FOW in Nic Fit tbh.
But Nissa could be tested.
If you want, I'll try it instead of explore. But beware that the deck is really fluid right now; messing with the curve is something I would do after testing the initial list.

[Arianrhod]

For reference, I believe that discard is bad because:

lands - discard is awful
elves - discard is awful (brutality gets a bit of a pass)
DnT - discard is awful (therapy is fine, but you'd never board in thoughtseize)
storm - discard is fine
show and tell - discard is fine
shardless - discard is awful
aluren - discard is awful
eldrazi / dragonstompy - discard is unplayable
delver - discard is questionable, but usually not worth it over other sideboard options

If Brainstorm had been banned, you might have a compelling argument. As it stands, with the upcoming expected format, I really don't think that discard is worth sideboarding over permanent-based hate options that can flex between combo decks.

[Brael]

I have never been a fan of FOW in Nic Fit tbh.
But Nissa could be tested.
If you want, I'll try it instead of explore. But beware that the deck is really fluid right now; messing with the curve is something I would do after testing the initial list.

I've never liked FoW either, which is why I generally discourage blue. But I think that in a PW focused build which won't be worrying about GSZ anyways it could be justified. I'm not sure if a Nic Fit shell is right for a Nissa/Jace team but there's a lot of natural synergy there.


For reference, I believe that discard is bad because:

Anything in a cantrip shell is too resilient to discard. Some discard is important, which goes back to the strength of Cabal Therapy, but we've always been hesitant to play too much. I don't think that changes.

[Arianrhod]

I've never liked FoW either, which is why I generally discourage blue. But I think that in a PW focused build which won't be worrying about GSZ anyways it could be justified. I'm not sure if a Nic Fit shell is right for a Nissa/Jace team but there's a lot of natural synergy there.



Anything in a cantrip shell is too resilient to discard. Some discard is important, which goes back to the strength of Cabal Therapy, but we've always been hesitant to play too much. I don't think that changes.

Yeah, I agree. I just want to curb the enthusiasm of the 4 Therpay 4 Thoughtseize 4 Hymn folks. If you want to sideboard a pair of Thoughtseizes like we did before, I wouldn't fault you - but I think it's incorrect to do so in lieu of more powerful, better suited sideboard options given the format I believe is coming.

[Brael]

Yeah, I agree. I just want to curb the enthusiasm of the 4 Therpay 4 Thoughtseize 4 Hymn folks. If you want to sideboard a pair of Thoughtseizes like we did before, I wouldn't fault you - but I think it's incorrect to do so in lieu of more powerful, better suited sideboard options given the format I believe is coming.

Last year I had some experiments with Tidehollow Sculler. At the time I supported that card over Thoughtseize based on the argument that when we use discard we're mostly trying to establish some minor disruption plus a clock, and that card does it. I eventually had to move away from that card because Terminus was just awful. It might be able to make a comeback now though.

Discard+Clock is how you beat decks like S&T and Storm. Off curve discard (Brutality, Sculler) is how you keep interaction through a Chalice of the Void. Plus, being a creature Prelate can't lock it out (assuming that becomes relevant).

It's still pretty horrid against Toxic Deluge though. So that's something to consider, but I do like that it's discard we can Volraths for in the mid game. That it exiles (until the Sculler dies) is also super relevant since if you discard the reanimation target out of Reanimator they can't just Reanimate it. And even blowing their Brutality to kill it, puts it back in their hand. Also nice is that it ends up not fueling Delve so it's a rare discard option that's positive rather than negative tempo.

[Lueseto]

Last year I had some experiments with Tidehollow Sculler. At the time I supported that card over Thoughtseize based on the argument that when we use discard we're mostly trying to establish some minor disruption plus a clock, and that card does it. I eventually had to move away from that card because Terminus was just awful. It might be able to make a comeback now though.

Discard+Clock is how you beat decks like S&T and Storm. Off curve discard (Brutality, Sculler) is how you keep interaction through a Chalice of the Void. Plus, being a creature Prelate can't lock it out (assuming that becomes relevant).

It's still pretty horrid against Toxic Deluge though. So that's something to consider, but I do like that it's discard we can Volraths for in the mid game. That it exiles (until the Sculler dies) is also super relevant since if you discard the reanimation target out of Reanimator they can't just Reanimate it. And even blowing their Brutality to kill it, puts it back in their hand. Also nice is that it ends up not fueling Delve so it's a rare discard option that's positive rather than negative tempo.

To add my 2 cents, you can even sacrifice Tidehollow to Phyrexian Tower in response to the trigger if the opponent has a card you don't want him to recover and you have another form of applying pressure. Not that it is relevant super often but it's a nice trick to have in mind.

[rubblekill]

Burn is going to be played more as well, and I wouldn't mind additional discard against that in a non rhino version. Yesterday a lot of people I played were on burn, in this "panic metagame" where nobody knows what to play.
Anyways now that miracles is gone I'm going to focus on junk and bug, and I don't play hymn in those decks.

By the way yesterday I played a couple of hours with the bug list and I have to say that 3 brainstorm (instead of top) and 2 perilous research provide quite the "smoothness" (excuse my lack of a better terminology) of the deck; 2 PR is the perfect number and count also as ramp for VE, giving us something to do in the early game to transition to the late game. The deck is a grinding machine, I'll post the deck list soon if someone is interested.

[Amulet of the HangingLamp]

Burn is going to be played more as well, and I wouldn't mind additional discard against that in a non rhino version. Yesterday a lot of people I played were on burn, in this "panic metagame" where nobody knows what to play.
Anyways now that miracles is gone I'm going to focus on junk and bug, and I don't play hymn in those decks.

By the way yesterday I played a couple of hours with the bug list and I have to say that 3 brainstorm (instead of top) and 2 perilous research provide quite the "smoothness" (excuse my lack of a better terminology) of the deck; 2 PR is the perfect number and count also as ramp for VE, giving us something to do in the early game to transition to the late game. The deck is a grinding machine, I'll post the deck list soon if someone is interested.


I am also on BUG and would be interested in seeing your list.

[Ganfar]

Has anyone tested Ishkanah, Grafwidow in nic-fit? Kinda good when delirium. But with top gone, it's even harder to get delerium in the deck :(

[Ralf]

Has anyone tested Ishkanah, Grafwidow in nic-fit? Kinda good when delirium. But with top gone, it's even harder to get delerium in the deck :(

I did.
I really like it but it is kind of slow.

But if you have a mean to bounce it every turn, it becomes dirty...

[Brael]

Made an attempt at merging SE+Rhinos. Not sure how this would do, but it stays within the desired curve, and still keeps almost all of the card advantage of SE. It's even built to maximize the chance of a T2 Rhino. Given that we'll be using Library a lot more again, I'm looking at Rhinos to get a few more cards out of it.

I know there's a lot of rhino fans out there, so here's something to try

Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith

Creature 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

[MDHackbert]

Why the split of Path, Swords, and Push? just hedging to see what feels best as the meta progresses?

[Memories of the Time]

Nyx Fit players, how are we changing top? I think that Nyx, being one of the nic fit that runs more deeds, is hit not-so-gently: moreover i don't think that Truths are the perfect replacement, for example: i'm missing top especially in the first two turns, when our deck isn't very interactive, and in the late game (for this, Truths is good).

[Navsi]

Nyx Fit players, how are we changing top? I think that Nyx, being one of the nic fit that runs more deeds, is hit not-so-gently: moreover i don't think that Truths are the perfect replacement, for example: i'm missing top especially in the first two turns, when our deck isn't very interactive, and in the late game (for this, Truths is good).

I'm currently on 1 Truths, 1 Diabolic Intent, and 1 Sylvan Library in the card selection slots. I'm also running more early interaction (swords/decay/brutality) than before, which gives us more stuff to do in the early turns.

[Brael]

Why the split of Path, Swords, and Push? just hedging to see what feels best as the meta progresses?

Playing low numbers of lots of similar cards means your entire removal suite has less chance of being blanked in certain matchups. StP will cause you to lose against Lands for example, but Path is quite poor against DRS, while Push is bad against Anglers. If you can't predict a specific meta, it's best to go broad so that you always have the best option for the situation as a viable draw in your deck. I'm doing something similar with Deed/Deluge/Vindicate, and Courser/Tracker/Library/Bob.

[Arianrhod]

Nyx Fit players, how are we changing top? I think that Nyx, being one of the nic fit that runs more deeds, is hit not-so-gently: moreover i don't think that Truths are the perfect replacement, for example: i'm missing top especially in the first two turns, when our deck isn't very interactive, and in the late game (for this, Truths is good).

I think that the biggest change to Nyx is that the EvoLeap versions full firmly ahead (instead of just being probably better like they were before).

[Megadeus]

For reference, I believe that discard is bad because:

lands - discard is awful
elves - discard is awful (brutality gets a bit of a pass)
DnT - discard is awful (therapy is fine, but you'd never board in thoughtseize)
storm - discard is fine
show and tell - discard is fine
shardless - discard is awful
aluren - discard is awful
eldrazi / dragonstompy - discard is unplayable
delver - discard is questionable, but usually not worth it over other sideboard options

If Brainstorm had been banned, you might have a compelling argument. As it stands, with the upcoming expected format, I really don't think that discard is worth sideboarding over permanent-based hate options that can flex between combo decks.

I actually kind of like non thoughtseize discard against delver. It can often take their only threat in hand forcing them to go off tempo and use their turn 1 to ponder instead to find a threat and when they don't have a threat on board their mana denial is much weaker because they aren't really getting ahead.

[Memories of the Time]

I'm currently on 1 Truths, 1 Diabolic Intent, and 1 Sylvan Library in the card selection slots. I'm also running more early interaction (swords/decay/brutality) than before, which gives us more stuff to do in the early turns.

But running more spot removal isn't worse now without top, after the first turns?
I dunno if we should try an even more souls-oriented version, with diabolic intent and maybe 3x of leap?

[Plm]

Nyx Fit players, how are we changing top?

I've swapped top for intent, the third leap and a brutality. Intent and leap are obvious, but brutality less so.
Here are my reasoning : the flexibility (sac outlet, removal, discard, lifegain), the velocity (being able to transform cards that would be useless/slow into an extra effect) and most of all the capacity to "not draw" cards I don't want to draw (because I'd rather have them in my graveyard ready to be starfielded than in my hand).

So not a CQ engine but a nice cog in the deck.

But the main thing is : leap is good with lingering souls, so good.

[square_two]

But running more spot removal isn't worse now without top, after the first turns?
I dunno if we should try an even more souls-oriented version, with diabolic intent and maybe 3x of leap?

That seems odd to me. Extra removal can almost always find a use.

I've switched to 4 Swords, 2 Decay, 2 Brutality. -1 Swords +1 Brutality is something I may consider later - Brutality is great against Stifle since you can Duress + give your Vet/Rector -2/-2. I want to be guaranteed to kill early stuff through taxing effects (Thalia/Daze). Lifegain is zero concern. Deck is going to lose vast majority of the time by drawing clunky and uninteractive hands imo. I mean, a single opposing Deathrite (with green mana) completely shuts us off Rector, so we really can't afford to let them live for long. Opposing Deathrites also eat up Lingering Souls which makes me sad.

More souls is something I've considered, though I'm already at 3. Card is so very good right now. I like 2 Evo Leap so far, but I hate the idea of adding more and seeing multiples in hand or drawn be completely useless.

Edit: I'm on 2 Sylvan Library btw.

[Arianrhod]

I actually kind of like non thoughtseize discard against delver. It can often take their only threat in hand forcing them to go off tempo and use their turn 1 to ponder instead to find a threat and when they don't have a threat on board their mana denial is much weaker because they aren't really getting ahead.

Most of this is my thinking about the typical "sideboard at least 2 Thoughtseizes," which became such a staple of the deck that we stopped questioning it, and I think that was a big mistake, especially with the arrival of Lands as a premier combo deck that really just aggressively doesn't care about discard.

Therapy is fine against a large number of those decks. Shardless is the only deck I routinely board Therapies out vs, and that's a point that has been a very contentious one in the past.

[Bobmans]

For the Rhino slingers out there, currently i have settled for the following 75. Pushing real hard to stay on 60 cards main.

Hits:
2x DRS for Compensating for 21 lands and not being bad against reanimator, storm and the likes.
1x Karakas, to be randomly awesome vs SnT and Reanimator
1x DLD, just to to present a big lifelink endgame.
2x Sylvan and 2x Truths, the cards are just straight gass, flattening the build a bit the game should make it more straightforward and not durdling around. We might lose Library to Deed, but at least we can draw some extra cards out of it if needed (and if possible).
1x QPM, cus screw Stoneblade and DnT.
2x Abrupt Decay, since we have Vindicate and QPM as well.
4x Path to Exile, (and 1x Vindicate). This is probably the best configuration i have played against RG Lands. Ramping into basics while keeping of Marit Lage until we start pushing with Sigarda (dodges Maze) and Siege Rhino (drain life). Vindicate on Maze can also ensure to push thru some damage. Using Deed and Decay on Mox/Exploration/Molten Vortex is fine to. Therapy can call Crop/Gamble. If they are tapped out Crop is a better call, but with untapped mana i'd rather call Gamble. Discard is not ideal against RG Lands, but at least there are targets to call for Therapy. Plus we need the sac outlet's for Veteran Explorer anyway. Eating Veteran Explorer and DRS when you go for Scooze (aiming at 5 toughness) can also be very strong vs Lands. That way they can't PFire the Scooze and you eat all their shit from the grave. Postboard Surgical, Extirpate and Pithing Needle. Hitting PFire or Dark Depths drastically increase chances to win the MU. Choosing which one to hit first really depends on how the game develops. Surgical on PFire into DRS can be really strong. But sometimes you gotta bait out the Loam dredging DD into the yard. In cornercases i have hit Loam when they open to greedy. Also postboard i leave in Deed, but board out Decay. If they have Molten Vortex out a deed can save your life, plus hitting Mox, Exploration and Manabond will slow down the game for them. After some intense nights of testing against a friend of mine he confirmed that this deck (Pre ban) was one of the most difficult decks to play against.

Kicks:
Courser, since that card was really awesome with Top, it might as well be with Library. But i don't believe we could hold either one of them for that long on the field. And i am done durdling around.
Thragtusk, i think we have enough life-gain in the build. With Miracles gone the LtB ability might not be that interesting anymore.
Meren + Dryad Arbor: no more durdling.

Misses:
Lost Legacy, this one i am not sure. It might help against combo, but i don't know. Also i do not own them (yet).
Progenitus, or at least, a solid answer against the card. I really think that Elves is gonna jam the read, reading the Elves thread. Blessed Alliance was mentioned, but the question is, can we keep the board clear for the card to work?
21 Lands, can i get away with it? The consensus was cutting Volrath's Stronghold and with it, Primeval Titan. On the other hand, 4 Veteran Explorer and 2 DRS also carry their weight.

In the end, not all that "different" from what it was, but just some tweaks to improve the aggressiveness. I really want to push the mid-range game with this build and try to avoid going long. So i have cut all the durdly cards as much as possible. The only card still in there is Eternal Witness (and Nissa to a lesser extend), but there has been so many occasions where GSZ into Witness, into some non-creature card has been vital to stay in the game or force a hole in the defense, with other words, turning a GSZ into say Surgical Extraction can be all we need in situations.


4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Tireless Tracker
4x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Dragonlord Dromoka

4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Painful Truths
2x Sylvan Library

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate

1x Nissa, Vital Force

1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath

//Sideboard
1x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Extirpate
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Thoughtseize
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Damnation
1x Pithing Needle

[Luthiereisfun]

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Tireless Tracker
4x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Dragonlord Dromoka

4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Painful Truths
2x Sylvan Library

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate

1x Nissa, Vital Force

1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath

//Sideboard
1x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Extirpate
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Thoughtseize
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Damnation
1x Pithing Needle


I really like the list. One thing I might consider is 1 kaya ghost assassin and switching to rec sage. Kaya in Rhino Junk has been amazing. Recurring rhino-witness-rec sage are great. It does also make the case for trying to fit tusk in but you don't need tusk to make Kaya great. Kaya's CA early is great and I have found the drain to be effective when trying to pressure hard with rhino.

[Bobmans]

I really like the list. One thing I might consider is 1 kaya ghost assassin and switching to rec sage. Kaya in Rhino Junk has been amazing. Recurring rhino-witness-rec sage are great. It does also make the case for trying to fit tusk in but you don't need tusk to make Kaya great. Kaya's CA early is great and I have found the drain to be effective when trying to pressure hard with rhino.

So i have heard about Kaya, Ghost Assassin. Never tried the card, but perhaps it deserves a shot. What is your suggestion to switch for it?

Edit: what i like about it in contrast to say Recurring Nightmare (since i already talked about Volrath's Stronghold), is that it dodges the graveyard and has "other" things to do when there are no creatures to bounce and it can help you win.

[Luthiereisfun]

So i have heard about Kaya, Ghost Assassin. Never tried the card, but perhaps it deserves a shot. What is your suggestion to switch for it?

Edit: what i like about it in contrast to say Recurring Nightmare (since i already talked about Volrath's Stronghold), is that it dodges the graveyard and has "other" things to do when there are no creatures to bounce and it can help you win.

I would probably take a path or Dragon Lord. I think your remaining top end should be more than fine for closing games. In its own right once you get some Rhino ETB triggers DRS activations and they fetch etc..even kaya starts to pose as a game ending threat.

I think 3 path and 2 abrupt decay should be good for early spot removal to get to deeds and start dropping rhinos on them.

[Bobmans]

I would probably take a path or Dragon Lord. I think your remaining top end should be more than fine for closing games. In its own right once you get some Rhino ETB triggers DRS activations and they fetch etc..even kaya starts to pose as a game ending threat.

I think 3 path and 2 abrupt decay should be good for early spot removal to get to deeds and start dropping rhinos on them.

In my experience with 4 PtE you really get a solid removal package that deals with the big dudes as well. Especially the ability to hit Gurmag, Marit Lage, Griselbrand, etc, makes that the junk colors can compete in the big league. I suppose that DLD being the slowest card is the one that makes most sense. Still i really want some kind of Umpf.. when the game goes long, we go big.

[Memories of the Time]

That seems odd to me. Extra removal can almost always find a use.

I've switched to 4 Swords, 2 Decay, 2 Brutality. -1 Swords +1 Brutality is something I may consider later - Brutality is great against Stifle since you can Duress + give your Vet/Rector -2/-2. I want to be guaranteed to kill early stuff through taxing effects (Thalia/Daze). Lifegain is zero concern. Deck is going to lose vast majority of the time by drawing clunky and uninteractive hands imo. I mean, a single opposing Deathrite (with green mana) completely shuts us off Rector, so we really can't afford to let them live for long. Opposing Deathrites also eat up Lingering Souls which makes me sad.

More souls is something I've considered, though I'm already at 3. Card is so very good right now. I like 2 Evo Leap so far, but I hate the idea of adding more and seeing multiples in hand or drawn be completely useless.

Edit: I'm on 2 Sylvan Library btw.

Not always, that's the point. And spot removal is often nearly-dead in many MU, especially StP.
Moreover, i can't understand why rising again about removal when midrange/tempo decks are our best MU and combo our worst one. It doesn't really sounds logical to me: i'm a big fan of C. Brutality for its flexibility, but 4 stp? The only MU that it improves (about the ones we care) is Elves, being totally dead against most of the others and not so usefull against Burn, anyway.
btw: i've reached like 100 games with the deck, and i've lost against a deck with DRS only once simply screwing to death.

[Arianrhod]

I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that Baneslayer Angel has a long and glorious history of racing Progenitus in multiple formats. Probably not enough to bring her back into the limelight between the power creep of the 5-drops we've gotten lately and/or the existence of Atraxa, but it's worth remembering that one of the best answers to Progenitus is just racing the damn thing if you can't blow it up somehow. The only edict that I think is a good idea is Tariff -- beyond that, they're not going to realistically hit it, and even if you do somehow, they're just going to NO it up again unless you can slam the door on them quickly.

I'm actually proxying up Elves momentarily. I want to jam some test games with it and try to pick apart how the deck loses, to see if there's anything we can take away and try to adapt to our purposes.

[Bobmans]

I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that Baneslayer Angel has a long and glorious history of racing Progenitus in multiple formats. Probably not enough to bring her back into the limelight between the power creep of the 5-drops we've gotten lately and/or the existence of Atraxa, but it's worth remembering that one of the best answers to Progenitus is just racing the damn thing if you can't blow it up somehow. The only edict that I think is a good idea is Tariff -- beyond that, they're not going to realistically hit it, and even if you do somehow, they're just going to NO it up again unless you can slam the door on them quickly.

I'm actually proxying up Elves momentarily. I want to jam some test games with it and try to pick apart how the deck loses, to see if there's anything we can take away and try to adapt to our purposes.

Honostly, i innitially had 2 Bananaslayer Angels in the list instead of 1 DRS and 1 DLD. But i wanted more pressure lower on the ground on one side with some added ramping capabilities next to the 21 lands and on the other side i wanted something beefy, DLD is basically a Zenithable Banana Angel. I really like Atraxa (and Leo), but i do not want to splash a fourth color.

Something i am not sure of, is Proggie vulnerable to Damnation? (even if so, it would be pretty freaking lucky to get Damnation on Proggie and push thru our own lethal damage.

Elves is really hard to not to lose from since it has so many angles to attack from. Plus the wirewood/quirion tricks are too much. Either they just squeeze thru combat with wheenies, or Hoofderp, or Proggie on your head, or bounce the Shaman of the pack until you die. A friend of mine runs Worldspine Wurm and catches A LOT of people off guard. But PTE makes it much better to deal with.

To beat Elves i always do something like: Cabal Therapy into NO > GSZ > Glimpse. Catching the T2/3 NO with Therapy is often enough to ensure Deed has the time to be setup. Spot removal keeps the board clear of the crucial creatures: Wirewood > Quirion > Elvish Visionary , until we can sweep the board. After that it is all about keeping the board clear and holding up the pressure.

Edit: Totally forgot Council's Judgment, which can also deal with Proggie.

[Ulysse95]

I'm on this right now:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collective Brutality
1 Painful Truths
2 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Evolutionary Leap
1 Sylvan Library
1 Nether Void
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Cruel Reality
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Starfield of Nyx

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
1 Living Plane
1 Humility
1 Chromanticore
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Golgari Charm
2 Lost Legacy

Curse maindeck without Humility/Plane is a bit awkward, but if Elves, D&T and Young Pyromancer are all going to be more prevalent I think it's probably worth it. Chromanticore is there pretty much 100% for Burn, since you can sideboard out Leaps and other garbage 5-drops for him and Sanctity.

Starfield remains in the deck for three reasons:
- Deed is looking really strong right now, and if we use one, Rector into Starfield becomes a hard lock.
- Collective Brutality is a great card and I want to be able to use it well - being able to confidently pitch haymakers like CReality and Convergence helps. Also makes it easier to play Chromanticore.
- I want more recursion than just a singleton Witness, especially when there are a few 1-ofs which are critical in some matchups. Between Starfield and Nissa, I think Starfield has more upsides (mainly because we have other ways of killing JTMS now).


I'm not convinced by Cruel Reality anymore since I found Sandwurms convergence strictly better (it always does something on it's own and become stupid with other enchant where CR is board dependant).

My current list goes that way:
1 [R] Bayou
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [] Windswept Heath
1 [] Eternal Witness
4 [UD] Academy Rector
4 [] Veteran Explorer
1 [ISD] Curse of Death's Hold
1 [DIS] Dovescape
1 [] Sandwurm Convergence
1 [5E] Sylvan Library
2 [] Pernicious Deed
2 [] Starfield of Nyx
3 [] Evolutionary Leap
4 [] Cast Out
1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
2 [] Collective Brutality
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [] Lost Legacy
SB: 1 [TE] Diabolic Edict


I like dovescape better than before since we got curse and convergence that goes well along.
I'd like to put in at least 1 replenish, but not sure were.
Since we don't have top anymore, I try to stic to 60.
Cast out seems really nice as a can trip and hard spot removal.

[square_two]

I admit I could be wrong playing 4 Swords (my next league run probably will have 3), but I can't fathom not running any at all.

Nyx Fit is a control deck. We don't care about opponent's life. Our gameplan revolves around resolving a 4-drop, and getting its death trigger off so that we can get some bogus enchantment into play that gives us a win. I simply can't imagine this deck working without having some early interaction, and I think you have to have some incredibly good reasoning to not be playing the best removal spell in the format. Creatures we need to deal with didn't just vanish with Top's banning, quite the opposite...

[Memories of the Time]

I admit I could be wrong playing 4 Swords (my next league run probably will have 3), but I can't fathom not running any at all.

Nyx Fit is a control deck. We don't care about opponent's life. Our gameplan revolves around resolving a 4-drop, and getting its death trigger off so that we can get some bogus enchantment into play that gives us a win. I simply can't imagine this deck working without having some early interaction, and I think you have to have some incredibly good reasoning to not be playing the best removal spell in the format. Creatures we need to deal with didn't just vanish with Top's banning, quite the opposite...

Again, we have far more effective ways to deal with creatures. Probably it's because i'm running Humility maindeck, but as said i've lost against a non-combo, non-burn deck only once in my testing. It's just seems so easy to wipe board and broke their gameplan and any hope with Humility, Deed ecc.

Moreover, i can't understand why we have to improve already awesome MU while adding dead cards against 80% of our bad ones. I'm totally playing 3 Brutality before the fist stp, for example. And i don't see Nyx Fit as a control deck, rather a prison one: we don't have to care about creatures after a certain point (when they are useless 1/1 tokens, in my case). Moreover, the vast majority of creature based decks aren't aggro like Zoo (where having Stp is a good move), but rather midrange that can't simply manage us

[Warden]

I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that Baneslayer Angel has a long and glorious history of racing Progenitus in multiple formats. Probably not enough to bring her back into the limelight between the power creep of the 5-drops we've gotten lately and/or the existence of Atraxa, but it's worth remembering that one of the best answers to Progenitus is just racing the damn thing if you can't blow it up somehow. The only edict that I think is a good idea is Tariff -- beyond that, they're not going to realistically hit it, and even if you do somehow, they're just going to NO it up again unless you can slam the door on them quickly.

I'm actually proxying up Elves momentarily. I want to jam some test games with it and try to pick apart how the deck loses, to see if there's anything we can take away and try to adapt to our purposes.

For 5 mana go sneak attack -> spaghetti monster.

In all seriousness, Baneslayer is a forgotten/overlooked gem. I'm just nervous she lacks shroud.

[Luthiereisfun]

For 5 mana go sneak attack -> spaghetti monster.

In all seriousness, Baneslayer is a forgotten/overlooked gem. I'm just nervous she lacks shroud.

I think the lack of shroud and not being GSZ'able makes her a little awkward. I think white already has good access to life-gain with Rhino and Sigarda takes the cake in terms of being a hard to deal with evasive 5/5....

that said running Baneslayer Angel sounds dreamy and fun

[sobakasu510]

I love how Baneslayer can block Griselbrand!

Quick question because I'm an idiot and can't figure it out myself: do Atraxa and Leovold likely become better or worse post-Miracles meta? I'm trying to determine if I want to drop the blue splash for a more consistent mana base for my rhino build, but can't really decide. I feel like having room for more Tireless Trackers might be nice since we lost tops.

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk

[failor4ever]

after a little testing with a friend of mine, who playes elves, i ended up using this Deck:

ands
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Mana Confluence
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Night's Whisper

Planeswalkers
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Creatures
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer

Sideboard
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Fatal Push
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Lost Legacy
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

It's still a realy bad matchup, but in my opinion the Deck was a little bit faster as before the bannings and still good enough equped to handle other Matchups.
Also Atraxa and Leovold are doing wonders. Maybe the second leovold is a bit too much, we have too see.

[mstephenson]

It's still a realy bad matchup, but in my opinion the Deck was a little bit faster as before the bannings and still good enough equped to handle other Matchups.
Also Atraxa and Leovold are doing wonders. Maybe the second leovold is a bit too much, we have too see.

I like the second leovold and love seeing the kaya, she is gas.

[Bobmans]

After some rather quick testing against a friend of mine playing a Deadguy Ale variant i have made some conclusions.

First, Dragonlord Dromoka: The be short, there has never been a moment where i actually wanted to Zenith or draw the card over either Siege Rhino or Sigarda.

Verdurous Gearhulk: I am on the fence with this card. Pulling out this card with a Sigarda or Siege Rhino was pretty nasty. But it felt like win-more most of the time. It did not actually improved the board-state.

Kaya, Ghost Assassin: i was actually surprised by the utility this can provided. Strangely enough, it showed up every game i played. While her abilities never felt impressive, it did improve some maneuverability. So far this card proved to be most promising and thus it will stay in the deck.

For Kaya i replaced QPM for RecSage main. Moving QPM fully out of the deck, which frees up a SB slot. This slot, plus possibly the 3rd Thoughtseize are going to be replaced by Council's Judgment (Progenitus), until a better alternative is found OR some other MU needs improvement.

Finally, there have been numerous of situations where i had a Rhino or Sigarda out, but was facing a larger presence on my opponents board. I felt like i am missing a zenithable creature that immediately makes impact to the board. I searched down every Gx creature with "Enters the battlefield", but nothing came up. Does anyone have a suggestion?

[pettdan]

Finally, there have been numerous of situations where i had a Rhino or Sigarda out, but was facing a larger presence on my opponents board. I felt like i am missing a zenithable creature that immediately makes impact to the board. I searched down every Gx creature with "Enters the battlefield", but nothing came up. Does anyone have a suggestion?

No new or great ones, but... Titania, Protector of Argoth usually puts about 20 power on the battlefield over the next turn, with card advantage, but that is in a deck with KotR's. She needs to be built around in a Nic Fit shell so probably not worth it. Unless you figure out that KotR would be well positioned, which is probably not the case. Glissa, the Traitor does bring a defensive impact but it's probably not worth it. Scavenging Ooze can be that card if the board consists of Goyfs and Deathrites, not very likely. Sorry, no better suggestions.

Or actually, maybe Knight of the Reliquary really is well positioned in Nic Fit. Sneak and Show is popular and that is the obviously good matchup. Apart from that SDT's need to be replaced and with some mix of Tireless Tracker, Courser of Kruphix and maybe Vizier of the Menagerie KotR actually becomes rather synergetic, providing extra shuffling, extra mana, thinning the library, extra landfall etc. That would make Titania pretty good. She usually makes a huge impact when I resolve her... Throw in Sylvan Safekeeper and Scryb Ranger and it's a deck.

[rubblekill]

I'll post a quick update on what I'm playing at the moment.
I think that the ban of top hurts combo versions more than fair version of the deck, therefore I think Rhino could be in a good place right now; BUG just replaces 3 tops with 3 brainstorms. This is the main reason I'll be focusing more on Rhino - BUG instead of GB Fit, because GB cannot run brainstorm or Painful truths (the best draw spell available to us, and maybe in the entire format?).
Overall as you can see both my sideboards are very oriented to fight combo/unfair decks, as they should: no more BS like 3 choke or random 6 cmc Walkers in the sideboard thanks to miracles being only a distant nightmare.

Rhino Fit

http://i.imgur.com/8adEZru.jpg


This is a version of rhino I'm testing, where I "imported" the crop rotation package from my experience with the GB version.
What does crop rotation give in rhino fit? Rhino is the fairest nic fit in existence, and a 1 mana answer to unfair strategies is very very helpful (bog or Karakas); with 4 leylines in the board I feel very secure in the gy matchups. If I know I'm playing a fair matchup and I know the opponent hasn't got any countermagic in hand I can always turbo ramp a crop rotation into tower into veteran.
This version of rhino is focused on exploiting as much as possible the rhino trigger: to achieve that I play 3 (!!) painful truths.
I'm not sure if 3 is too much (probably), but I want to play at least 2 because this allows to reload after the opponent exhausted all their countermagic/discard.
The win conditions in this deck are very straight forward: rhino or nissa/sigarda. No random creatures like reclamation sage, master of the wild hunt or scavenging ooze here: without top I want to have as much consistency as possible, therefore I want to reduce the situational cards I can draw in the mid to late game. Top mitigated the "GSZ-nature" of the deck, allowing us to avoid drawing very specific cards: without top rhino has to rely on draw spells. The draw spells can either draw me lands, more CA, removal or straight up gas (rhino/Nissa).
With rhino I feel that 2T combo is kinda of a necessity: the combo gives us MORE rhinos (the only reason to play junk in my opinion, outside Nyx fit) and improves our inevitability. The problem is that I don't want to play prime time (the only deck where I like PT is sneak fit, but with miracles gone PT becomes a sideboard option at best even in that version of the deck), because I don't want any more 5-6 mana win conditions, the format is going to be faster now therefore I want to play only a few big bombs. Without any ways to tutor 2T I wouldn't even consider playing them, so Crop rotation helps here as well: in the late game it isn't a dead card because it assembles 2T.
In a 3 color deck I feel I cannot afford to play a Maze in the main, so it is in the side for fast glass cannon match up like BR Reanimator.


BUG Fit

http://i.imgur.com/fUT84Bs.jpg


The version less damaged by the ban of top: brainstorm is a decent card.
I'm very happy to have included perilous research: the card means ca AND ramp.
No utility lands here because the mana requirements for the cards are quite hard on the mana base (strix/decay mana on T2); 2T combo is needed less because this version plays less win condition creatures: here the creatures are the basic structure of the deck, around which the rest of the deck is assembled. GSZ means basically ramp (VE), life gain (ooze or tusk) and wall to defend our walkers (thrun).
Baleful strix is the reason to play this deck, nothing more to say here.
So the main win condition of the deck are not the creatures, but the walkers. This deck plays the BEST walkers printed in their colors: I'm alone here, but I strongly believe that Liliana of the Veil is devastating in a controlling version of the deck, even without PFire or stuff like lingering souls. She immediately pressures the board or their hand, and she is the only "good" walker against combo.
Nissa is the best walker in the deck in my opinion, as she regrows her dead friends from the graveyard (fuck you DRS, you cannot eat walkers). Jace is a decent magic card.
No random walkers like Ob Nixilis or Garruk. EVERY walker in this deck (Nissa, Lili, Jace) impacts the board immediatly, and defends itself: Jace bounces (nice combo with CT in the very late game, where CT is otherwise dead); Lili edicts; Nissa summons reality smasher and the turn after regrows her walker friends.
The only problem of this deck is very very fast aggro, like burn or UR delver: I played 3 Murasas in the side and they did their job, but I want to focus more on the combo/gy matchups because those decks are going to be very prevalent in the upcoming metagame in my opinion.
This version of the deck is very close to what I want to do in BUG colors: the only change I'd make is -1 Jace +1 Leovold. Leovold would be nice to have but I don't play him only for budget reasons, as he is currently 30 tix right now. I don't feel like without leo this deck cannot operate, though.


I'm sure I forgot something, I'll edit the post later if I remember something else.

[Ganfar]

@rubbelkill.


Rhino Fit seems to have many 3 mana cards but every few 2 mana. 3 Painful Truth seems to be one too many.

Why not replace one with Night's Whisper ?

[rubblekill]

@rubbelkill.


Rhino Fit seems to have many 3 mana cards but every few 2 mana. 3 Painful Truth seems to be one too many.

Why not replace one with Night's Whisper ?

You are absolutely right, there are few 2 mana cards and more 3 mana cards. To be honest I don't really need more 2 mana cards, the only one I'd consider would be a decay, but do I really need the fourth one? I think I run a lot (one could probably say too much) of removal already.
The third truth is probably overkill, as I said. Night whisper wouldn't make that big of a difference to be honest, probably the third truths should be a second tracker but for now I'm going to play this list.
I really don't feel the need to play situational low cmc cards outside of what I already play: the deck feels like a well oiled machine in my opinion.

[MDHackbert]

I always felt like the 2-drop spot was never much concern to me. Either I am wanting to GSZ for a 1-drop, or landing a Library here. Rare occasion is both Vet and Therapy on this turn. Similarly, I haven't often wanted 2-drop green dudes because the 3-drop spot is already crowded with hardcasting 3-drop dudes or deeds or Truths, and I have not usually wanted to GSZ, X = 2, there.

[rubblekill]

I always felt like the 2-drop spot was never much concern to me. Either I am wanting to GSZ for a 1-drop, or landing a Library here. Rare occasion is both Vet and Therapy on this turn. Similarly, I haven't often wanted 2-drop green dudes because the 3-drop spot is already crowded with hardcasting 3-drop dudes or deeds or Truths, and I have not usually wanted to GSZ, X = 2, there.

Yes, I agree with all this. The only 2 mana cards outside decay that I consider are hymn (in the gb fit version I play) and occasionally ooze, if I really need bonus lifegain (see my bug version).

[Bobmans]

Or actually, maybe Knight of the Reliquary really is well positioned in Nic Fit. Sneak and Show is popular and that is the obviously good matchup. Apart from that SDT's need to be replaced and with some mix of Tireless Tracker, Courser of Kruphix and maybe Vizier of the Menagerie KotR actually becomes rather synergetic, providing extra shuffling, extra mana, thinning the library, extra landfall etc. That would make Titania pretty good. She usually makes a huge impact when I resolve her... Throw in Sylvan Safekeeper and Scryb Ranger and it's a deck.


I agree that going Titania lands style, you'd have to dedicate the entire list. The consensus for Junk is giving up Sigarda and Siege Rhino.

A man can dream:


1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
3 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

[Lueseto]

I've been playing Titania with just 2 Crop Rotation and fetchlands and she is awesome. Crop into Wasteland yourself provides 15 power out of nowhere and ends games.

[square_two]

I've been playing Titania with just 2 Crop Rotation and fetchlands and she is awesome. Crop into Wasteland yourself provides 15 power out of nowhere and ends games.

I think she is well positioned right now, and doesn't really take that much effort to utilize. I did something similar with 2 Intuition, 1 Loam, 1 Ghost Quarter in my BUG list. Had one game where I was at 6 lands on the field (one was a fetch), GQ in grave. I played out Titania and had 20 power ready to swing next turn.

She is also nice against a Sneak/Show player if they put out Emrakul.

[Warden]

I always felt like the 2-drop spot was never much concern to me. Either I am wanting to GSZ for a 1-drop, or landing a Library here. Rare occasion is both Vet and Therapy on this turn. Similarly, I haven't often wanted 2-drop green dudes because the 3-drop spot is already crowded with hardcasting 3-drop dudes or deeds or Truths, and I have not usually wanted to GSZ, X = 2, there.

What is your ideal sequencing? I ask because I have a very different opinion of 2 CMC cards in Nic Fit and T2 ideal plays.

[MDHackbert]

I would typically lead on a Deathrite or Therapy. T2 would be going for 3-drop or Vet, flashback Therapy, 3-drop respectively.

If i have GSZ and neither of the above available, I'd likely hold up fetch on T1, and GSZ for Deathrite on 2.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

[Brael]

I've been playing Titania with just 2 Crop Rotation and fetchlands and she is awesome. Crop into Wasteland yourself provides 15 power out of nowhere and ends games.

I've tried a couple builds with Titania, I don't like the card though, it encourages you to not use mana, so that you can leave fetches up, or worse Wastelands. Leaving up untapped mana to GSZ for X=5 means having a ton of mana on the board already. I think there's better things to do if you're going to commit that much mana to it.

[Lueseto]

I've tried a couple builds with Titania, I don't like the card though, it encourages you to not use mana, so that you can leave fetches up, or worse Wastelands. Leaving up untapped mana to GSZ for X=5 means having a ton of mana on the board already. I think there's better things to do if you're going to commit that much mana to it.

Hmm, I haven't been doing that... I just feel that by herself, with just a fetch in the yard that's 10 power already, which is pretty big for a 5 cmc zenitheable creature. I don't think you should be saving fetchlands for her. In the games I've played her, I've been able to pull 15-20 power out of her without much committing and without altering my earlier plays. Plus she ramps you 1 land which is always nice. I find this deck to be excessively mana-hungry, specially now that I've moved to 3 Tireless Tracker, so that extra land always comes in handy.

I dunno, it's just that without her I really don't see a way to close games really fast. Kind of reminds me of Grave Titan. Less raw power for sure, but costs 1 mana less and is zenitheable, and I'll repeat myself: with a Crop Rotation in hand it's absolutely lethal on the next turn. Fetch in the yard + cropped land + cropped fetchland/wasteland can mean 20/25 power out of nowhere, and it happens not that rarely.

[Dalton!]

Commune with the gods searches emrakul(and erything else), Sneak Attack and Deed. Could that be a thing?

[Brael]

You are absolutely right, there are few 2 mana cards and more 3 mana cards. To be honest I don't really need more 2 mana cards, the only one I'd consider would be a decay, but do I really need the fourth one? I think I run a lot (one could probably say too much) of removal already.
The third truth is probably overkill, as I said. Night whisper wouldn't make that big of a difference to be honest, probably the third truths should be a second tracker but for now I'm going to play this list.
I really don't feel the need to play situational low cmc cards outside of what I already play: the deck feels like a well oiled machine in my opinion.

I think the main argument for 2 drops is it still leaves your deck functional when you can't accelerate. A T2 Vet opener will happen for you 24.4% of the time, and a T1 DRS opener is 11.7% of the time. Assuming you get neither of those, which are the perfect openings you have the opportunity to GSZ=1 and get a Vet on T2 for some T3 acceleration in 48.1% of games. Throw it all together and you only have a success rate of 65.35%. Which means that in a full third of your games you still need some other plan and that's before considerations like your opponent wastelanding you, or the hands with a combo but only 1 land.

If you don't like the two drop solution, I'll point out that simply adding a Dryad Arbor to have the GSZ=0 play available increases your chance of having 3 mana on T2 from 65% to 79%

[rubblekill]

I think the main argument for 2 drops is it still leaves your deck functional when you can't accelerate. A T2 Vet opener will happen for you 24.4% of the time, and a T1 DRS opener is 11.7% of the time. Assuming you get neither of those, which are the perfect openings you have the opportunity to GSZ=1 and get a Vet on T2 for some T3 acceleration in 48.1% of games. Throw it all together and you only have a success rate of 65.35%. Which means that in a full third of your games you still need some other plan and that's before considerations like your opponent wastelanding you, or the hands with a combo but only 1 land.

If you don't like the two drop solution, I'll point out that simply adding a Dryad Arbor to have the GSZ=0 play available increases your chance of having 3 mana on T2 from 65% to 79%

I don't plan on pooping out a mediocre 2-3 mana dude on T2-3 necessarily, I don't want to be proactive in the early game if I don't have any means of acceleration. I want to be the control player in the early game, and T2 decay is a perfectly legitimate option for that role.
Without top I want to reduce the amount of nonsense I play in the deck, because I want to be able to have live draws throughout the game.
Even when I play a 2 drop like ooze, I consider the guy a late game card to steal a win after eating 2 full graveyards, or like a desperate mean of life gain when I need it. That's why I play ooze pretty much only in GB and BUG, because I need the life gain. As a normal 2 drop in sneak fit or rhino fit the card is very mediocre in my experience. I don't even consider ooze a decent gy hate card because it's soo slow.

I played dryad arbor a lot in the past, and in the end I decided it's a bad use of a land slot. If you play SFM and/or Meren then Arbor becomes a legitimate option, but since I believe none of those 2 cards are particularly good to have in the deck I play, I won't play arbor anymore.

[Ganfar]

I played a match against Sneak Fit with commune with the gods on X mage. That card seems to be very good in that deck.


Commune with the gods searches emrakul(and erything else), Sneak Attack and Deed. Could that be a thing?

Yes, I think it's seems good when I played aganist it

[mstephenson]

So played in a 40 man event today and top 8'd and lost first round to Sneak and Show with

Creatures: 16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Planeswalkers: 4
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nissa, Vital Force

Instant/Sorcery: 16
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths

Enchantments: 3
3 Pernicious Deed

Lands:21
2 forest
2 island
1 swamp
2 Trop
2 Bayou
1 Underground
3 Misty
3 Delta
3 Verdant
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:

4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Painful Truths
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip



Hightlight of the day was playing against aluren when they cast an aluren at 9 life, and then assembled strix plus harpy and Yawgmoth bargin'd down to 1, didnt hit the combo and then I out grinded him with a meren and some strixes(he had a leovold as well).

Some thoughts on the list:
Brainstorm is still insane
Playing 4 push was sweet, more 1 mana removal is great
Collective brutality kinda sucked, maybe not enough to remove but it wasn't as good as I hoped
Meren was INSANE against the fair decks now that miracales is gone
Painful truths main was sweet
Multiple leovolds was sweet
Playing deathrite was awesome, especially against lands round 1, and not being able to be punished by terminus
Force of will was also great against Show and Tell and lands and in general, card is great.

[Warden]

Wall of text theory-craft discussion below


I don't plan on pooping out a mediocre 2-3 mana dude on T2-3 necessarily, I don't want to be proactive in the early game if I don't have any means of acceleration. I want to be the control player in the early game, and T2 decay is a perfectly legitimate option for that role.
Without top I want to reduce the amount of nonsense I play in the deck, because I want to be able to have live draws throughout the game.
Even when I play a 2 drop like ooze, I consider the guy a late game card to steal a win after eating 2 full graveyards, or like a desperate mean of life gain when I need it. That's why I play ooze pretty much only in GB and BUG, because I need the life gain. As a normal 2 drop in sneak fit or rhino fit the card is very mediocre in my experience. I don't even consider ooze a decent gy hate card because it's soo slow.

I played dryad arbor a lot in the past, and in the end I decided it's a bad use of a land slot. If you play SFM and/or Meren then Arbor becomes a legitimate option, but since I believe none of those 2 cards are particularly good to have in the deck I play, I won't play arbor anymore.

My view of Nic Fit continues to evolve and @rubblekill helps me see a contrasting playstyle/view. Neither of us hold a "better" or superior way to play the deck.
I can distill my Nic Fit piloting during T1-3 down to two primary goals: I want to 1) rapidly accelerate my mana and 2) force the opponent to become a lame duck (strategic dead-end).

@rubblekill, I think you need "mediocre" 2 and 3 drops to an extent because they help with what I identify as goal #1: rapidly accelerating mana. IMO, an early Green Sun's Zenith is just a mechanism to grab Arbor, Vet, and DRS in the early game. In a pinch it can grab Sakura (if played and/or strategically needed to reach goal #1). I never worry about using a zenith for these little guys. Without them, I'm screwed. Zenith cycles back into the deck, so there are functionally <= 4 copies of it in the deck while you play.

As for forcing your opponent into a dead-end, I can see the arguments for/against numerous cards. The easiest one to understand is Deed, which fundamentally ruins the day for most legacy decks. Ideally, I drop an accelerated deed turn 2 or 3, wipe the table, and move on with business. Removal spells like decay, stp, fatal push, pulse, etc all do the same thing: they impede the opponent from accomplishing his or her task. This is where I agree in broad brush-strokes about "wanting to be the control player in the early game". I'd argue you need some amount of "value" cards that could x-for-1 your opponent early. I'd also argue for the deck to include a critical mass of cards to reach goal #2 (otherwise you're putting all your eggs in the "deed or bust" basket).

@Medicore Folks: I wouldn't look down on Mr. Ooze as an early 2-drop so quickly. Early, he usually forces an unfavorable combat for the opponent. Lots of decks do not want to trade x/2's. The longer he stays on the table, the better his odds of growing as a threat + gaining me life. Against opposing DRS + Goyfs, GY things, he's a major factor in achieving goal #2. From my perspective, if all Ooze did was prevent 1 DRS activation -- which then translated into the opponent not being able to perform his or her ideal sequence -- he successfully did his job. Ooze doesn't have to be the end-game hero (although we are all aware he DOES dominate late if given the resources). 99% of the time I'd rock 1 Ooze maindeck because he serves an early game role as a 2-drop with relevant late-game potential. The worst thing that could happen to Ooze is him being countered or shot in the face with removal. There are also corner-cases where Ooze comes out as fodder for an immediate Therapy. Sometimes you need a 2 or 3 drop to simply be fuel for flashbacks. Nevertheless, all of these points indicate how Ooze (and by virtue, the other "mediocre" early drops) accomplish goal #2 on a broad-level. Let the dorks take the fall, strip the opponent of relevant cards (in hand or on the table), and give your later bombs some strategic breathing room.

I think BUG has access to the best 2 drop for Nic Fit in Baleful Strix. Deathtouch, cantrips itself, and synergizes with a variety of decision trees in the BUG gameplan.

Of course, each game of Nic Fit is different. From my perspective, if I'm only accomplishing 1 of the 2 goals in the early game (ie; only accelerating without interaction OR only nuking everything the opponent plays sans ramp), the deck actually isn't doing what it should. I'm not fully preparing myself for life at T4. What you do at T4 is up to you. I've been soul-searching for how I'd want to proceed from that juncture onward. Sneak-Fit is a great example of the mid/late game plan I'd like to implement. It can play the default GBx "this is an awkward card for legacy decks to face" gameplan or chuck OP bruisers at the opponent via Sneak Attack while simultaneously gaining value (Emraku, Titans, etc). In terms of the end-game itself...I've seen 4C Nic Fit do ridiculous shit, Spaghetti Fit have hilarious moments, ultra-grindy Junk Fit setup lockdown loops with recurring nightmare, and ScapeFit go off with Burning Wish. Then we have this thread's Nyx Fit concept, Jund Fit, Pod Fit, BUG Walker Fit, etc. The cards used during the end-game don't matter. It's surviving to that mid/late game that means so much. And I believe doing so requires you accomplish those 2 main goals listed above.

Green is the primary way you accomplish goal #1 in any flavor of Nic Fit. With Top's exit from the format, you're more or less banking on Zenith and dorks to ramp.
Goal #2 is where card slots matter. Do you want more removal spells? Recursive, grindy spells? Value spells (x-for-1)?

Notice that I do not include "draw additional cards" or "filter the library" as a goal. I think knowledge of the library + card advantage is what helps all top legacy decks become great (see: beginning of SE Fit discussion), but said concepts are not imperative to Nic Fit's early gameplan.

[LOLWut]

hnggg, loving the deep analysis (I mean it)

[tescrin]

Commune with the gods searches emrakul(and erything else), Sneak Attack and Deed. Could that be a thing?

I had a guy in Jund-Fit Sneak-Emmy me. I still ended up winning though (haha)

He did:
* Sneak
> Fierce Empath
> Emrakul

[Dalton!]

I had a guy in Jund-Fit Sneak-Emmy me. I still ended up winning though (haha)

He did:
* Sneak
> Fierce Empath
> Emrakul

Sometimes one emrakul ist not enough.:laugh:

Can someone explain why night's whisperer is played over painful truth? Is it because of the lower costs?

Didn't realize first that commune puts the cards in the grave. I toyed a bit with the new Lili and her reanimation but didn't Liked the result.

1 diabolic intent
2 painful truth
2 tracker
This ist what compensates the top in my Sneak List for me.

[Brael]

I think BUG has access to the best 2 drop for Nic Fit in Baleful Strix. Deathtouch, cantrips itself, and synergizes with a variety of decision trees in the BUG gameplan.


I agree that Strix is better, but I wouldn't count out either SFM or Dark Confidant. I've been playing with Bob for quite a while now and he made my Rhino list even. The card is quite good. And SFM of course has great synergy with Arbor, and is all around powerful.

[Ganfar]

Sometimes one emrakul ist not enough.:laugh:

Can someone explain why night's whisperer is played over painful truth? Is it because of the lower costs?


Just lower mana cost. 4-color controll have started to play two in main.

Some of the nicfit lists have a lot on 3 mana but very low on 2. Manacurve is still a thing, guys.

[Yutao]

Has anyone done any testing with any of the new cards from AKH?

[Bobmans]

Has anyone done any testing with any of the new cards from AKH?

I was just toying around with Vizier of the Menagerie in x-mage. I guess the card is decend, but not overwhelming without a way to manipulate the top card (Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guile). But funny thing is, i was able to cast creatures of the top at instant speed, aka in response to other stuff... not sure if that was a bug in x-mage or if this is something it is supposed to do.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I was just toying around with Vizier of the Menagerie in x-mage. I guess the card is decend, but not overwhelming without a way to manipulate the top card (Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guile). But funny thing is, i was able to cast creatures of the top at instant speed, aka in response to other stuff... not sure if that was a bug in x-mage or if this is something it is supposed to do.
That is a glitch. If it happens on MTGO, don't use it til they fix it or you could get the boot...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Bobmans]

That is a glitch. If it happens on MTGO, don't use it til they fix it or you could get the boot...

Good to know, lol.

[Memories of the Time]

Today first tournament with Nyx Fit, 30 players: not so good, sadly: 2-3

T1 Tempo Deathblade (???)
Lost g1 for an unexpected Stifle on Deed, won g2 and g3 with Wurm

T2 Omnishow mono U
Probably the worst MU in the room: g1 he plays S&T, i lay down Humility he Omni->Release the Ants. g2 Nevermore on S&T, but he manage to find Wish-Breach-Emrakul sadly. I would have won both the games against Sneak&Show

T3 Miracle topless
New list from one of the best italian player =) g1 i draw 10 lands and 1 zenith in a row, g2 he topdeck the right card for three times in the right moment. He has admitted his luck, sad because it's a good MU =/

T4 Abzan Midrange
Short story: i've wrecked him, even if he has started g2 with Leyline of the Void

T5 Aluren 5 Color
I've never won the dice, and he knows my deck. He feared Humility (obv), but in g1 he cast Shardless with a blind find on Seize trowing away my Humility and closing on t4, g2 i play correctly my first turns with Seize/Cabal but drew only lands and i've lost by beatdown.

Short considerations:
-Humility was an all-stars, as tested, and an awesome catch-all against many decks. Probably i want the second one in the sideboard.
-Sandwurm: totally needed for a fast clock, unbereable by basically everyone
-Curse: Not so good anyway, in the important MU (D&T, Elves, Aluren) Humility is better almost every time
-I've lost 2 games for having Diabolic Intent in hand without any sacoutlets
-I'm not satisfyed at all neither by gsz. I think that we have to choose between increasing the n° of target a bit (probably adding a Dryad Arbor for another options on t1 to accel and for Leap -i could won a game with a dryad, for example) or cutting it and creature's 1x.

[wsurugby10]

So I just recently started following this thread and I haven't quite finished everything yet. I'm wondering what peoples thoughts are on the traditional Nic fit versus Nyx Fit? Which one given the current bannings do you feel is more viable/better? The idea of playing Nyx is exciting for me. I just don't want to start building something that for all intents and purposes is useless.

Is there a "standard" Nyx build? The most recent footage I've been able to find on the deck was back in February. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm excited to hear what people think.

[Bobmans]

So I just recently started following this thread and I haven't quite finished everything yet. I'm wondering what peoples thoughts are on the traditional Nic fit versus Nyx Fit? Which one given the current bannings do you feel is more viable/better? The idea of playing Nyx is exciting for me. I just don't want to start building something that for all intents and purposes is useless.

Is there a "standard" Nyx build? The most recent footage I've been able to find on the deck was back in February. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm excited to hear what people think.

I wouldn't say that there is a "better" version of NicFit. Currently we lost Sensei's Divining Top which has more or less impact on the game we are trying to play (depending on which version we are talking about). So now it is harder to say which version is better at doing what, since we have to settle with some adjustments and see from there. NyxFit plays a game on a total different axes then most NicFit variants. You either love it or you don't i guess. I think it is fun, but it is not my thing. Anyway, since most of the expensive cards in NyxFit are all in the JUNK colors, it would be pretty safe to invest. It would require little effort to switch to say 4x Siege Rhino build.
Proxy it up, or play on x-mage and find out what you like and prefer.

[Dalton!]

Has anyone done any testing with any of the new cards from AKH?

I really hate batterskull, so dispossess may find a way in my Sb.

[fonzdizon]

I agree that going Titania lands style, you'd have to dedicate the entire list. The consensus for Junk is giving up Sigarda and Siege Rhino.

A man can dream:


1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
3 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath



How has this list been playing out for you?

Have you developed a sideboard?

[Bobmans]

I really hate batterskull, so dispossess may find a way in my Sb.

Isn't Reclamation Sage or Maelstrom Pulse not enough to deal with the Skull?, rather then to choose a narrow card in a sideboard slot for a card that is only a one-off. Even given that RecSage is tutorable and recurrable most of the time? And that you could also use Slaughter Games or Lost Legacy as well? And isn't Cabal Therapy an option to simply let your opponent discard it after SFM or bounce?

[rubblekill]

You cannot LL batterskull. And I think his point is that instant removal is better vs sorcery speed removal, because in the mid to late game the opponent is going to have three mana open to bounce the batterskull most of the time.

[Bobmans]

You cannot LL batterskull. And I think his point is that instant removal is better vs sorcery speed removal, because in the mid to late game the opponent is going to have three mana open to bounce the batterskull most of the time.

Oh snap,.. You just saved me a game loss. Anyhow, i think we have enough "natural" ways to fix Batterskull, and in the end we get bigger anyway. Rebouncing Batterskull never been to much of a problem, if you keep the pressure on your opponent.

[rubblekill]

Oh snap,.. You just saved me a game loss. Anyhow, i think we have enough "natural" ways to fix Batterskull, and in the end we get bigger anyway. Rebouncing Batterskull never been to much of a problem, if you keep the pressure on your opponent.

The best (but still clunky) way I have found is to blow deed for 5 and then CT the damned card from their hand (CT is a dead card in the late game anyways, if we draw it in the late game we won't even use it immediately most of the time).

[Jain_Mor]

Forgive me fathers for I have sinned...

I chose junk rock in the end with zealous persecution maindeck for my 137 player "paid trip to Vegas" gpt, went 6-2 in Swiss for 10th place, then went 2-1 in single elimination runners up bracket to win a revised volc. So 8-3 overall. Am pretty happy, but pretty sad I'll be putting my altered veteran explorers down until the meta settles somewhere else. Keep fighting the good fight gentlemen (I do miss cabal therapy though..)

Edit: for nyx fit players, in my testing I ran your deck but cut gsuns and diabolic intents and ran commune with the gods and the GB instant one, it was awesome finding vet or rector and putting cabal therapy and lingering souls in the graveyard. Finds you all of your combo, and sticks enchantments in the yard for starfield and finds you starfield too. Made the deck smoother for me, I recommend further testing (unless you already have? Why did you dismiss it?). Also yes, humility is usually good but especially good right now, that you play lingering souls makes it all the sweeter.

[Dalton!]

Isn't Reclamation Sage or Maelstrom Pulse not enough to deal with the Skull?, rather then to choose a narrow card in a sideboard slot for a card that is only a one-off. Even given that RecSage is tutorable and recurrable most of the time? And that you could also use Slaughter Games or Lost Legacy as well? And isn't Cabal Therapy an option to simply let your opponent discard it after SFM or bounce?

Could very well be true. But when i loose against Blade Decks, then because of the Skull.
Dispossess could geht chalice as Well, but maybe really too narrow

[Bobmans]

Could very well be true. But when i loose against Blade Decks, then because of the Skull.
Dispossess could geht chalice as Well, but maybe really too narrow

Running Krosan Grip could be more relevant if it poses such a big issue. Krosan Grip still has a more wide application. Qasali Pridemage if on Junk or Kolaghan's Command if on Jund. Currently i'd like to run MD QPM in any Junk list i draw up, simply because Stoneblade is more of a thing.



How has this list been playing out for you?

Have you developed a sideboard?

Not enough to get conclusions yet, i think i'll take some time to do some initial testing with it tonight and think about sideboard strategies. But only if the main list has enough potential. This list was a rough sketch-up after the idea was presented to run Titania in a more "focused" gameplan.

[pettdan]

How has this list been playing out for you?

Have you developed a sideboard?



Not enough to get conclusions yet, i think i'll take some time to do some initial testing with it tonight and think about sideboard strategies. But only if the main list has enough potential. This list was a rough sketch-up after the idea was presented to run Titania in a more "focused" gameplan.

First, a link to list again: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1004742&viewfull=1#post1004742

Looks fun, potentially fast while also grindy with a lot of strong interactions in it. Wouldn't want to play against that with my fair lists. :) Probably needs a lot of testing and tweaking, but that is obvious from the discussion. Here are my first thoughts:

1. I think Scryb Ranger was a bit overambitious, works well with KotR and Tireless Tracker but that may not be enough.

2. Deathrite Shaman can be uncomfortable since he messes with KotR, Titania, Meren, Stronghold and Loam. Answers in this list are 3 Deed and 1 Pulse. I think there should be something more, playing that little removal always makes me uncomfortable. Toxic Deluge would work great with everything in the list except for the Safekeeper and Ranger, which I think is fine. So maybe change 1 Scryb Ranger into 1 Toxic Deluge, Engineered Explosives or probably better still just spot removal.

3. The list lacks in combo relevant cards in the maindeck. The fast win represented by 3 Crop Rotations and Depths + Stage is definitely something, but I would want something more. And then there's 2 KotR + 1 Karakas that's relevant vs SnT and Reanimator. I'm not sure what else could be played, but worth noting is that the white splash is very light and could be complemented with another color. Gaddock Teeg is the obvious card to play and fits well since he complements the existing answer vs Show and Tell with an answer to Sneak Attack, Natural order and Tendrils/Empty the Warrens thereby answering key cards from most major combo decks with one card. I'm still not sure it's good enough. Another card is Leovold, which would mean adding a Tropical Island and that we would probably rather avoid. He's a legit plan after t1-t2 discard giving us potentially a few turns to put the nails in the coffin.

I'm testing BUG Reanimator Fit which has a quick plan to complement the slow plan and can interact with combo in a great way, so I'll see if I can make it work. Super fun anyway. But I think a small reanimator package could be interesting in this list too, since Entomb lets you tutor for Loam which is a really sweet interaction to have in a mana hungry deck. Being able to go t1 Cabal Therapy, t2 Entomb + Reanimate for a Primeval Titan (for Depths + Stage) or Titania, depending on what fits better, is fun and strong. I've tried this a couple of months ago in a jund list but couldn't make a good list. I'll consider it though, for this one. That would probably replace the Crop Rotations and some of the grind cards (Nissa, Gitrog).

4. There's limited life gain in the list, only the single Courser. It can be fetched back by Meren and Stronghold so maybe it's enough. But with the two Sylvan Librarys life gain becomes really strong, not only for defensive purposes. I would probably change the Oracle into a second Courser. But it's hard to say, this list likes lands.. :)

So, a few changes to consider:

-1 Scryb Ranger
+1 Abrupt Decay / Toxic Deluge

-1 Oracle of Mul Daya
+1 Courser of Kruphix

-1 Nissa, Vital Force / Maze of Ith / Diabolic Intent
+1 Gaddock Teeg



And I'll add the BUG Reanimator List that I started toying with again yesterday (I couldn't find my last posts from something like 18 months ago I believe). In case anyone has any comments.

Maindeck: 60 cards
Core cards: 11 cards (plus GSZ and Deed)
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Snapcaster Mage

GSZ-package: 4 cards (plus GSZ and Veteran)
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Reanimate-package: 8 cards (plus Snapcaster Mage)
4 Reanimate
2 Entomb
1 Grave Titan
1 Glen Elendra Archmage

Planeswalkers: 2 cards
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

Card draw: 5 cards (plus Snapcaster Mage and Jace)
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

Removal: 11 cards (plus Snapcaster Mage, Reanimate for Strix and Liliana)
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Fatal Push
1 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Baleful Strix

Lands:
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

I'll probably add a land and go to 61 cards, which is good in a deck with GSZ and tutorable cards you don't want to draw early (Reanimate-targets). Also the Maelstrom Pulse feels like overkill. But being Tutorable with Entomb+Snapcaster is why I run it.

Sideboard:
1 Diabolic edict
1 Toxic deluge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Surgical extraction
3 Ensnaring bridge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Back to Basics
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
0 Carpet of Flowers
0 Pithing Needle
0 Fatal Push
0 Engineered Plague
0 Thoughtseize
0 Massacre Wurm

The zeros are some cards I'm considering. Massacre Wurm was in the maindeck last time I played this list, since it can hurt a lot vs most fair decks and especially Elves. I think I need to add something vs Elves, maybe a second Toxic Deluge in the board. Ensnaring Bridge could be good but with Reclamation Sage around that somehow doesn't feel very reliable.

This is a continuation of a list that Arianrhod posted maaaybe 18 months ago and that I continued with at that point.

Here are some things to consider:
Anti-combo plan: Use Therapies to slow them down; Entomb can get you extra therapies if needed; Entomb + Reanimate gets Glenn Elendra from t2 which is hard for combo to win through; Liliana or GSZ for Leovold is a good followup of of initial discard; Snapcaster Mage and Strix can be used to flashback if you don't want to give the opponent extra lands; GSZ for Ooze keeps the graveyard in check in the matchups where it matters, this is slow-ish but a good hit with t1 Therapy can buy you that time, sometimes.

Fair matchups: depending on your and the opponent's draw you can take different roles: a) ramp into a planeswalker or Titan if you can, b) Reanimate Titan, c) play removal and value creatures and use Reanimate and Snapcaster to double up on removal or offensive/defensive/value creatures based on what role you see fit (this will vary throughout a game); Entomb gives you extra Therapies for sac-outlets; Lots of removal and with a Snapcaster you can both double up on removal or even tutor for desired removal using Entomb; Snapcaster + cantrips and GSZ gives pretty good card selection. You'll quickly reach the mana where you can hardcast your reanimation targets but the Reanimates are still great for getting back Strixes, Ooze, Snapcaster etc.

Sideboard-plan:
You can bring out parts of the reanimation package and bring in Planeswalkers to play around graveyard hate. Ensnaring Bridges can be brought in vs decks that seem weak too it and they protect the planeswalker plan, also great vs some combo decks.

Vs combo obviously bring in Flusters and Surgicals for great double use with Snapcaster.

I'm unsure about the lands matchup, we have Strixes and Glenn for chump blocking Marit Lage in the main and Planeswalkers that can bounce/sac her after that, letting Sc.Ooze prevent Loam getting everything back. In the sideboard I put a Back to Basics but would probably need to reduce duals in the maindeck to make it good enough. Perhaps a second Diabolic Edict would be better, or a fourth Ensnaring Bridge - that way you can Therapy for Krosan Grip and play out double bridges.

Edit: after some thinking I realize that Invasive Surgery is great vs Elves and Lands, don't want to have a bad matchup vs those two right now. A single Entomb can even enable Delirium by putting Strix in the graveyard, but he's bound to end up there soon enough anyway. Swan Song is also playable in this list; Deed, Deluge and Bridge all make the token less of a problem. Swan Song would be for Sneak Attack, Food Chain and Alluren I guess, in addition to any combo deck really (but overlap with Flusters and Inv.S.).

[JackaBo]

I've been testing NyxFit on cockatrice and came to the following conclusions
1) banned top is miserable in this deck. In it's place we need to maximize consistency. I'm considering 4 evolutions.
2) convergwnce kind of wins on it's own
3) too many pay off cards make the deck way too clunky and bad. Convergence and starfield (to recur deeds) should be enough versus creature decks.
4) i like the creatureless version but i think a lot of lingering souls is warrented. I often lacked a creature to sac to evolution.
5) thus I'm ditching living plane even if that was the whole reason to play the deck IMO.
6) Garruk does everything we wants: he kills DRS, he creates tokens, he can fetch rector.

[Navsi]

I've been testing NyxFit on cockatrice and came to the following conclusions
1) banned top is miserable in this deck. In it's place we need to maximize consistency. I'm considering 4 evolutions.
2) convergwnce kind of wins on it's own
3) too many pay off cards make the deck way too clunky and bad. Convergence and starfield (to recur deeds) should be enough versus creature decks.
4) i like the creatureless version but i think a lot of lingering souls is warrented. I often lacked a creature to sac to evolution.
5) thus I'm ditching living plane even if that was the whole reason to play the deck IMO.
6) Garruk does everything we wants: he kills DRS, he creates tokens, he can fetch rector.

Agree with pretty much everything. I'm going to go with Sandwurm + Dovescape + Curse of Death's Hold for my game ending enchantments. I don't rate Garruk that highly, I'm just running more removal spells to kill Deathrite with.

For Top replacements I ran a Library but killed it with my own deed a couple times. If I was running Starfield I'd give Vessel of Nascency a shot. Since I'm dropping it I'm currently looking at Painful Truths or going back to Recruiter of the Guard.

[Memories of the Time]

Yeah, i really miss top too: there is nothing perfect for this deck like it, sadly.

I think that 3 Leap 3 Souls is a way to pursue, i've really liked Souls and Timely Reinforcement in the sb. I'm moving Curse in the SB, since Humility is being far better against too many decks.
Recruiter could also be a thing, dunno how much he's better than Eladamri's call, expect under Dovescape (that i'm happy to see in other list, for me is too good against many decks and a catch-all for combo).
I like Garruk, since i don't want too many not-flexible spot removal and i'm happy with 2 Brutality and 2 Decay (at least for the brutality part, dunno about decay/stp/more brutality now that cb is gone).

[square_two]

Yep yep, agree with other posters. I'm 8-12 in league matches with Nyx Fit in this topless world. Lot of losses just seem to come from drawing wrong cards, getting flooded, etc. Bumming me out enough that I'll probably switch to BUG Fit just to have brainstorms, as much as I despise them :rolleyes:

Something close to this pile

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Brainstorm
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Volrath's Stronghold

side:
4 graveyard hate (faerie has good synergy with meren, nissa, stronghold...)
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm // Mindbreak Trap
2 Pulse of Murasa
1 Lost Legacy
2 Toxic Deluge

Mostly sure about 4 graveyard hate, at least some Pulse, and 2 Deluge. Guess I can try Force, looks like it would be 17 sources postboard which seems low to me. Other plan could be a split between lots of Flusters and Mindbreak Traps I guess. All I really care about is sideboard to fight Elves, t0 combo, Storm, Burn, and Sneak/Show.

Edit: crap, had 1-2 C Brutalities in there somehow earlier. Just pretend a couple are in.

[Bobmans]

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
3 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath


So i was able to jam some games and get some sense to how this pile of trash plays out.

First of, there is some serious conflict in what the deck is trying to do. On one hand it is trying to ramp and overload on large creatures like Titania and Primeval Titan coupled with blowing deeds. On the other hand we are consuming our manabase to incorporate with KotR, Crop, Loam and enable some kill with Titania or DD/Stage. One thing we are definitely NOT and that is a DD/Stage combo deck, and we shouldn't be trying to do that. And i know, since i swear by DD/Stage in Aggro Loam. However, things that are great is jamming KotR and Titania together, but doing so definitely squeezes to ability to get into the NicFit game. If you fail to finish with Titania and the likes, well you simply die because we cannot maintain the boardstate and develop fast enough. So early conclusion is that if you want to focus on KotR, Loam and Titania (which is a good plan), you might be better of playing something like Gw Turbo Eldrazi with some kind of Loam engine. This deck definitely wants it's manabase to stay untouched and huge. Other cards that worked real nice together where Tracker, PrimeTime and Titania. Those cards together seriously created pressure and card-advantage. So from here on, i might want to focus more on something like that.
Ok, so other cards that failed:
Scryb Ranger: did nothing. Only KotR is a card that wants to be untapped and bounce replaying lands was never relevant enough to warrant a spot in the 75.
The Gitrog Monster: That card was just a 6/6 vanilla. I'd rather have Thragtusk in this spot, the lifegain would have been more relevant.
Meren of Clan Nel Toth: The card itself was never relevant, but i suppose you really want Meren combined with Dryad Arbor. The combination should (in theory) work very well together with Tracker.
Crop Rotation: There never was a situation where i wanted to loose lands and fetch something for it. DD/Stage could have been a thing, but staring at Karakas and threatening Swords made it really bad. Also with the lack of Tragtusk, Volrath's Stronghold was kind of mediocre. Grinding into Tracker was also not very appealing, at least not when you cannot drop lands to create draws tokens right away.
Pernicious Deed: because of the nature of self consuming manabases, Deed became much slower.

All in all it was OK to toy around with this deck, obviously there is a lot of synergy in there with a large combination of cards, but the things some cards are trying to do conflict to much with the plan NicFit is generally trying to achieve.

I don't know how others feel about it, but i never actually want to Zenith into Tracker. Does anyone actually Zenith's into it?

[Hmmm_Really?]

Jbone and his Rune-Scarred Demon went 5-0 today....

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-01-0


----

[jbone2016]

Jbone and his Rune-Scarred Demon went 5-0 today....

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-01-0


----

Heh. Yeah, 60 main and 14 side. Whoops.

Edit: Also 24 people in this thread? Zuh?

[Bobmans]

Heh. Yeah, 60 main and 14 side. Whoops.

Edit: Also 24 people in this thread? Zuh?

Gratz with the result, you just put SneakFit into global radar. I love how you just took all those "odd" choices into the deck and play it into 5-0.

[jbone2016]

Gratz with the result, you just put SneakFit into global radar. I love how you just took all those "odd" choices into the deck and play it into 5-0.
I blame Ari for most of these choices. I stumbled upon someone streaming sneaky fit over the weekend. I saw massacre wurm and was thrilled. Demon is just another tutor/big fattie. I have deluged for 15 twice to kill and emrakul now.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[TLK]

What's the 15th sb card? :frown:

[jbone2016]

What's the 15th sb card? :frown:

Probably move deluge to the main as a 61st card. Another lost legacy in board and a baloth against burn.

Dryad arbor has been awkward at times....but being able to flashback a therapy with it has been really good.

Wood elves might better then Nissa at times.

[ShadWills]

I just found out today. Weird they would ban the colorless version and not the blue one. I had come to accept countertop as good not broken. It makes sense in a way, but I think it makes brainstorm even better, which is counter intuitive in another way. I hope this means we can look forward to more brainstorm like cards like Faithless Looting in other colors. Maybe NicFit gets MindTwist and it's all good. It has been said that we still have Library, but many of us know better. Wow. actually I was just about to invest in paper versions of this card. Good for me- bummer for my friend! Wow. I hope it's all good if I vent a bit about this here. I expect most of us feel similarly.

[Bobmans]

I just found out today..

Yep, RIP SDT. The thing with Top was, and what i am actually missing about it, was the ability to dig for stuff at instant speed. Combined with shuffle effect, mainly fetches, we could look at top 3, if nothing there, shuffle and look at another 3 AND even grab the card your looking for. With multiple top and/or fetches you could do all kinds of crazy shit, like grab two extra cards, shuffle away one top and put the other one back on top. Anyway, we'll just have to make do with whatever we got. Depending on the build i'd go somewhere between Tireless Tracker, Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile, Painful Truths, Diabolic Intent.



I blame Ari for most of these choices. I stumbled upon someone streaming sneaky fit over the weekend. I saw massacre wurm and was thrilled. Demon is just another tutor/big fattie. I have deluged for 15 twice to kill and emrakul now.

Probably move deluge to the main as a 61st card. Another lost legacy in board and a baloth against burn.

Dryad arbor has been awkward at times....but being able to flashback a therapy with it has been really good.

Wood elves might better then Nissa at times.

I like little Nissa more in grindy versions of the deck. That said, with Dryad Arbor in the main deck; Meren of Clan Nel Toth becomes a valid choice. Dryad Arbor is excellent alternative T1 mana dork (Zenith 0), makes wasteland a bit awkward when you open with a dual > Zenith 0, sac's to Diabolic Intent and Therapy. Plus you can snipe it with a fetch against opposing Liliana or as a blocker. Meren compliments Arbor in such a way that you get to create more board preseence when you land Meren. Plus Meren is not a bad card in this deck anyway, being able to regrowth fatties. So Meren might just be a valid choice in the slot of said Wood Elves.

Only 3 Veteran Explorer?

Massacre Wurm seems to be randomly good, but mediocre most of the times. How has the card been for you?

[Ganfar]

I don't know how others feel about it, but i never actually want to Zenith into Tracker. Does anyone actually Zenith's into it?

I have and it was amazing when I did my landdrop.

I think the issue is that You don't want to GZ on turn 4 for Tireless. I want to have my land drop on the same turn I play my Tireless. That's way green sun Tireless don't happen often

[rubblekill]

Tracker, similarly to the scavenging ooze, is a mid to late game card. It's purpose is to refuel after you (and your opponent) have exhausted your interaction pieces in the early game.
I wouldn't ever play him in turn 3 (or gsz in turn 4), unless your hand is garbage. But if your hand is garbage in turn 3 why have you kept it in the first place.
I don't know about sneak fit or Nyx fit, but in the grindier and fairer versions (rhino and gb) I like it a lot. Against control a turn 4 tracker + fetch land is a nightmare because we can make 2 clues while they "waste" their plow. With crop rotation you can do some nasty stuff with tracker.

Two words on Titania: before the ban Titania was the best finisher available in my gb rock fit list. Unfortunately now the format has sped up and the best delver version is no longer bug but grixis. This means that there are lots of lightning bolts around, therefore Titania becomes mediocre again. This is unfortunate.
Before the ban she was awesome in my gb list with 3 maindeck rotations: I played her in the super late game and often won the following turn with surprise elementals ftw.

[Warden]

With Top gone, I don't know if I want to go Junk for its plethora of removal or something else for a combo win. The downside is that Nic Fit has trouble with countermagic.

[Navsi]

Therapy is pretty good at clearing the way for a combo finish.

To be honest I'm thinking of giving Scapeshift another shot. The removal/interaction options are better now (Push/TTS/Brutality) and one card combos are easy to find which helps with consistency.

On the other side of the coin, I've just put this together to do some testing with:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Witness
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Perilous Research
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Collective Brutality
2 Swords to Plowshares

2 Nissa, Steward of Elements
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 misc other fetchlands (probably Misty Rainforests)

[square_two]

I have and it was amazing when I did my landdrop.

I think the issue is that You don't want to GZ on turn 4 for Tireless. I want to have my land drop on the same turn I play my Tireless. That's way green sun Tireless don't happen often

At least in my bug fit lists, I like having enough Trackers to not have to GSZ for them. Especially considering I'm only running 1 GSZ right now :rolleyes:

Last night against Elves, I was able to pull off the double damsel duo. Tracker -> fetch. Next turn another Tracker -> fetch. Opponents usually scoop in response to that.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Just wondering if anyone else is trying out Evo Leap plus Bone Pickers? It's what I'm building.

Lingering Souls just makes the hell out of the list. It's also a super pairing with Meren.

[Luthiereisfun]

Just wondering if anyone else is trying out Evo Leap plus Bone Pickers? It's what I'm building.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

What kind of shell are you trying to build? Generally I think a 3/2 flyer that's cheap isn't what Nic Fit is interested in. I imagine it's a pretty aggressive build?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It does play out aggressively. I'm working on lines that are more early than late, although later doesn't seem as bad as you might imagine.

Lines of t1 explorer into turn 2 cabal therapy, flashback, play a bone picker. You can also kill their delver/deathrite with push and then play a bone picker. Anyway, souls goes wide, good against Delver, deathtouch is good against grislebrand, still play 1 Rhino and 1 Thragtusk.

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[Purple Blood]

I would rather play Bone Picker in a Pyromancer deck. Eight-Delver Grixis anyone? I don't see it in Nic Fit. What slot is it taking? How is it advancing the game plan?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I tried it in Delver lists, but you need the creature to die during your turn and after they see bone picker, they don't wait until your turn to do it. No, you need to turn the Bone Picker on yourself.

It's not slotted in to traditional nic fit. It's a nic fit shell with a build-around concept. It's a more aggressive build. It stops all early tempo beaters as well as the combo creatures. Can even kill Emmy as long as you get a fast draw and have 7 permanents, which isn't unreasonable in a list such as this.

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[sdematt]

I'll be trying the following:

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Tireless Tracker
4x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Ulvenwald Tracker
16

4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Painful Truths
2x Sylvan Library
1x Night's Whisper
9

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Path to Exile
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
14


2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
21

1 Open

//Sideboard

2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Thoughtseize
2x Choke
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Pithing Needle

[Purple Blood]

I tried it in Delver lists, but you need the creature to die during your turn and after they see bone picker, they don't wait until your turn to do it. No, you need to turn the Bone Picker on yourself.

It's not slotted in to traditional nic fit. It's a nic fit shell with a build-around concept. It's a more aggressive build. It stops all early tempo beaters as well as the combo creatures. Can even kill Emmy as long as you get a fast draw and have 7 permanents, which isn't unreasonable in a list such as this.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Yea so flashback Cabal Therapy sacing elemental token. Play Bone Picker. I see it fitting there pretty nicely.

Care to post your list?

[square_two]

I'll be trying the following:

1x Ulvenwald Tracker


Have you tested the Tracker before? I'm curious. When I tried out RUG NO last year I had a 1-of Granger Guildmage as a GSZ target that can repeatedly ping off Mom, Elves, Thalia, random other x/1's. Worked out alright. Honestly could see the guy in Jund Fit somewhere in the 75, although Punishing Fire sort of covers that role.

[Bobmans]

Have you tested the Tracker before? I'm curious. When I tried out RUG NO last year I had a 1-of Granger Guildmage as a GSZ target that can repeatedly ping off Mom, Elves, Thalia, random other x/1's. Worked out alright. Honestly could see the guy in Jund Fit somewhere in the 75, although Punishing Fire sort of covers that role.
I suppose it works out perfectly with Baleful Strix, and even more with recursion such as Volrath's Stronghold or Meren.

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[jbone2016]

I like little Nissa more in grindy versions of the deck. That said, with Dryad Arbor in the main deck; Meren of Clan Nel Toth becomes a valid choice. Dryad Arbor is excellent alternative T1 mana dork (Zenith 0), makes wasteland a bit awkward when you open with a dual > Zenith 0, sac's to Diabolic Intent and Therapy. Plus you can snipe it with a fetch against opposing Liliana or as a blocker. Meren compliments Arbor in such a way that you get to create more board preseence when you land Meren. Plus Meren is not a bad card in this deck anyway, being able to regrowth fatties. So Meren might just be a valid choice in the slot of said Wood Elves.

Only 3 Veteran Explorer?

Massacre Wurm seems to be randomly good, but mediocre most of the times. How has the card been for you?

Meren never seemed up to snuff. And it was getting spendy online, so I sold it. Same with the surgicals. You can get cute with woodland bellower/wood elves/dryad arbor. With deathrite being as popular as it is, Meren doesn't seem as good as it should. I'll played with 3 Vets for a long time now. The 4th seemed unnecessary with Miracles as popular as it was. Might be time to add it back in.

I have had Worldspine wurm before as another fattie (which I have hard cast before vs Miracles), but Massacre wurm seems better for the meta right now.

I did play against grixis delver (lost) and a BUG nic fit last night (won). I will say Stifle seems to be on the rise again.

[jbone2016]

Hmm.

Punishing Jund list with 4 bone pickers seem reasonable?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That card is good, mark my words. It is going to end up being a staple somewhere. I think there are many spots it can fill.

I'm not posting a list til I own it all (not long, now). I also have never played nic fit before, so I need to test things first before I say something potentially stupid. I actually wasn't going to post on here til I had it finished, but I wanted to hear reactions and see if it was a possibility. Bone picker is definitely worth testing in Jund lists, both legacy and modern.

[sdematt]

I ran Tracker pre-Miracles and it was great in the metagame and did real, honest work, especially against opposing value creatures that might tend not to attack (DRS, Confidant, Leovold). Plus, once you run Garruk Relentless, the jig is up and combat is over.

I just feel like popping Delvers with Rhino, then attacking with Rhino is cool stuff.

[ShadWills]

I've generally liked Ulvenwald Tracker in casual. It's downside is it's removable, but so many creatures have this downside and are still playable. I think he gets better the more removable creatures you run alongside him- like DRS and dryad arbor and perhaps Bob. I think Brael plays with a lot of these type of creatures and could maybe provide some insight.

[LVA]

Hey everyone, I have played junk nic fit for about a year and I'm just looking for something kind of different. I was looking through some of my binders and found out I have 4 copies of scapeshift and valakut. I was curious if anyone else has been experimenting with the Scapewish variant since the banning of top and where you are at. Also, what do you think is the optimal list. I've looked through the first page of the primer, but since the decklist there is from a full year ago I was curious if there were any significant changes.

Also since sneak attack is cheaper now from eternal masters I would be willing to give it a shot if it is just a "better" combo nic fit variant.

[TTX]

Hey everyone, I have played junk nic fit for about a year and I'm just looking for something kind of different. I was looking through some of my binders and found out I have 4 copies of scapeshift and valakut. I was curious if anyone else has been experimenting with the Scapewish variant since the banning of top and where you are at. Also, what do you think is the optimal list. I've looked through the first page of the primer, but since the decklist there is from a full year ago I was curious if there were any significant changes.

Also since sneak attack is cheaper now from eternal masters I would be willing to give it a shot if it is just a "better" combo nic fit variant.

I've been playing around with the Scapewish deck again. I like the Sneak Attack deck too, but it seems kind of clunky, I hate drawing huge creatures early game and there's no way to get them back into the deck.

Anyway, here's the list I've been playing. I'd like some suggestions if anyone will give them.

// 60 Maindeck
// 15 Creature
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Wood Elves

// 3 Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed

// 2 Instant
2 Abrupt Decay

// 16 Sorcery
2 Scapeshift
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize

// 24 Land
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Stomping Ground
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

// 2 Creature
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Glissa, the Traitor

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

// 9 Sorcery
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 From the Ashes
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Lost Legacy

[Warden]

I ran Tracker pre-Miracles and it was great in the metagame and did real, honest work, especially against opposing value creatures that might tend not to attack (DRS, Confidant, Leovold). Plus, once you run Garruk Relentless, the jig is up and combat is over.

I just feel like popping Delvers with Rhino, then attacking with Rhino is cool stuff.

I don't see Tracker doing much tbh. I think at best he's win-more material since he does nothing on his own and requires quite the board state to produce anything substantial. I'd rather run a showstopper like Leo, a Titan, or Nissa in his place.

[Brael]

Have you tested the Tracker before? I'm curious. When I tried out RUG NO last year I had a 1-of Granger Guildmage as a GSZ target that can repeatedly ping off Mom, Elves, Thalia, random other x/1's. Worked out alright. Honestly could see the guy in Jund Fit somewhere in the 75, although Punishing Fire sort of covers that role.

I have in a Rhino build. It's good but not great. Along the same lines I've tried out Nightshade Peddler before, that one was kind of interesting.

[LVA]

I have in a Rhino build. It's good but not great. Along the same lines I've tried out Nightshade Peddler before, that one was kind of interesting.

Having a way to gain actual card advantage off of a zenith in pretty worth it, at least to me. Eternal witness isn't nearly as good as it used to be because of all the damn deathrites. I'm on 2 right now and that seems like a reasonable number for now. It is basically a 4 drop though since you always want to get at least one clue out of it.

[Luthiereisfun]

I think Tireless Tracker in its own right is really for grindy MU. I think what also makes it powerful is that it can become a must answer threat as well as providing CA. It's kind of inetween cards like nights whisper/p truths and the other big bomb creatures.

[Brael]

So some updates on the paper Legacy league I've been playing.

I'll start with the good, out of the 8 rounds possible I won 7 of them (due to scheduling conflicts I never got in the final match) which put me in first place.

And the bad: half the league is out of town (including me) for summer vacation now, which means we won't get to conclude it. Most of my summer will be spent around people who don't play much if any Legacy so I won't get to do much for the next few weeks. Though I'll be traveling for a bit, so I might manage to find random stores playing it here and there.

So what this means is that I need to pick a new build in the next few days and stick with it. My summer job involves a lot of travel for weeks on end, and I prefer to travel pretty light, so my card access is basically picking some cards to take with me, and then as I return from trips making a few swaps before I head out again.

I still have some time to decide, but I'm looking at returning to a Junk build. I gave a Rhino build a couple pages back that I would like to try out.

But, until I decide, I want to talk a bit about my impressions of my latest GB build now that the league is over (due to scheduling, we called off the top 4 playoffs):

As a refresher, here's the list I played. Note that the league started prior to the SDT ban, so these were our lists until it finished, only applying ban updates to the next league (it would be unfair to let people change decks mid league).

Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith

Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Strangleroot Geist
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt

Planeswalkers 2
2 Nissa, Vital Force

Spells 19
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

So to start with, obviously the SDT's need to go. But that's not really what I found interesting about this list. What I actually noticed, was that a few things really felt unnecessary. I don't know if it was due to my specific matchups and how they drew, or if the cards were just conflicting with themselves but I didn't actually get that much out of the 2nd Nissa. While the deck has one of the highest chances available to generate 5 mana on turn 2, I just didn't find myself going for it all that often. The Rotation into Tower play is very powerful, but it's also really risky in a world where 60% of decks run 4 Force of Will, it's a high risk play to go for on turn 2 against virtually every deck. If your opponent doesn't have a Force, they almost certainly have a Wasteland and the Tower will only be good for one activation. I think this can be alleviated with some higher impact 4 drops though, my current selection is a little weak so the 5 mana GSZ to 4 drop plays were lackluster. Also, I rarely used the Rotation for a Maze play, with white being a possible consideration for the next iteration, I may swap Maze/Karakas in their MB/SB roles. Rotation for Bog felt great though, just like my last league I never missed the Ooze, and I always felt advantaged against GY decks.

With Chalice appearing less than I thought it would, I feel pretty comfortable taking Cavern out of the list.

Strangleroot Geist was interesting, I actually won a round due to it, but it was such a rare set of circumstances that I can't put much weight on it. Basically what happened was this (I think I told this story before):
My opponent is on Storm, I lost G1 so I'm going first.
T1 - Land, Veteran Explorer.
Opp T1 - Proceeds to attempt to T1 me. Goes to 5 life off Ad Nauseam and stops, not getting what he needed. Uses a Gitaxian Probe for 2 life, dropping to 3. Sees Strangleroot Geist in my hand, along with another green source to cast it. Opponent sighs in defeat and passes the turn.
T2 - Land, Geist, swing 3.

This is the story of how I got a T2 win playing 100% fair Magic.

Despite that story, I don't think I want to play Geist again. It was never bad, but it's main purpose was to be a way to hit JTMS and I don't think I need that anymore with Miracles gone.

Without Top, Bob gets a little worse as well due to the order of operations with Library. I've never been one to be scared of blind flips, but the loss in manipulation does reduce the value a bit. I may go down to three, and balance it out with another lifegain card, which basically means Ooze.

On the spell side I liked the balance of everything.

One thing worth noting though is the deckbuilding tax Dark Confidant adds. He strongly encourages you to lower your curve. I try to balance my deck around 75 mana pips for Bob to work on, that's 1.25 life/card on average. My GB deck comes in overbudget there by 1 pip. With SDT this was a really minor deal because you could always guarantee you would take 1 at the most by tapping it but without that manipulation it's a bigger deal now. Part of this goes back to the Sylvan Library order of operations. A flip on Bob, a draw (dig 3), draw, and then playing something off of Courser leaves you with only one card on top to upkeep flip. So there is now much less control over that. There's still some with Volrath's Stronghold (Arbor is nuts here) and Courser information, but it's not as good as it used to be. Without Rhinos I think I would want my future deck to be 4 Bob 0-1 Library, but with Rhinos 2 Library feels solid due to the lifegain, I feel the same about SFM since each Batterskull hit is worth a card.

Last, I'm abandoning the Dark Depths plan in the sideboard. It was never bad, but it wasn't really great either. With lands being more prominent now, I don't want to be hosed by hate directed at them.

So this is what I'm looking at right now:
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creature 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
2 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard 15
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Golgari Charm
4 Lost Legacy
1 Treetop Village
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

[Brael]

Having a way to gain actual card advantage off of a zenith in pretty worth it, at least to me. Eternal witness isn't nearly as good as it used to be because of all the damn deathrites. I'm on 2 right now and that seems like a reasonable number for now. It is basically a 4 drop though since you always want to get at least one clue out of it.

Getting CA off of an Ulvenwald Tracker is too hard due to summoning sickness. It can happen, but it's slow. Tireless Tracker works, but it's expensive. Cost/Benefit wise I think Meren is the best option for GSZ CA.

[square_two]

Think there is some confusion over the local Innistrad tracking authorities. Ulvenwald Tracker. Tireless Tracker.

That said, I definitely agree that Meren is well positioned right now. She isn't hot against combo, but anything else is pretty great seeing as D&T is on a decline (which had Swords + Karakas to handle her, also our other threats being exiled wasn't fun).

Personally I'm rocking BUG fit online right now and Brainstorms are providing some excellent filtering. Humorous to pretend to be a typical BUG list with DRS, Pushes, Strixes...until you slam a Deed, wipe the opponent's board, and followup with Jace, Tracker + fetch, Meren, Nissa, or Titania. Surprise, my hand wasn't full of chaff after all.

[ShadWills]

[QUOTE=Brael;1006008] I want to talk a bit about my impressions of my latest GB build now that the league is over (due to scheduling, we called off the top 4 playoffs):

This deck is closest to my latest builds in that it has a lower curve than typical NicFit lists. However I have moved away from "removable" creatures like bob in favor of creatures that can provide value immediately, or have shroud or possibly haste. I would love a great two drop, something like Baleful Strix or Stoneforge mystic, but I am really trying to keep the deck GB, mostly just 'cus I guess. You mentioned the tax of Bob requiring a lower curve. Personally I have not had much issue here. I just get so bummed when my dark confidant gets bolted. Ultimately I am asking if bob is really as good as he was way backwhen? Or is he just barely good enough? Only goodish-worth-three-slots-if-you-adjust-your-curve? Maybe I just need to try it for myself...

[Purple Blood]

So this is what I'm looking at right now:
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creature 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
2 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard 15
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Golgari Charm
4 Lost Legacy
1 Treetop Village
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed


Do you think downgrading Path/Swords and Rhino to Push and Croc is slight enough to be worth staying GB? I suppose you're losing Teeg out of the sideboard also.

Also curious which matchup is the Treetop for?

[Brael]

This deck is closest to my latest builds in that it has a lower curve than typical NicFit lists. However I have moved away from "removable" creatures like bob in favor of creatures that can provide value immediately, or have shroud or possibly haste. I would love a great two drop, something like Baleful Strix or Stoneforge mystic, but I am really trying to keep the deck GB, mostly just 'cus I guess. You mentioned the tax of Bob requiring a lower curve. Personally I have not had much issue here. I just get so bummed when my dark confidant gets bolted. Ultimately I am asking if bob is really as good as he was way backwhen? Or is he just barely good enough? Only goodish-worth-three-slots-if-you-adjust-your-curve? Maybe I just need to try it for myself...

He's fine. If they remove Bob, they're letting something else ride the value train.

I would run 4 Bobs, but I want to try out 2 Library for a bit. While the interaction isn't perfect, the two cards do compliment each other so I would rather have a 3/2 vs a 4/1 to encourage them combining more often.

[Brael]

Do you think downgrading Path/Swords and Rhino to Push and Croc is slight enough to be worth staying GB? I suppose you're losing Teeg out of the sideboard also.

Also curious which matchup is the Treetop for?

I don't like running Push, it's good against DRS and Delver but other removal is better against just about everything else.

I'm not really a fan of Croc. Rhino is a far superior 4 drop, even in straight GB there's 4 drops I would prefer. Actually, what's getting given up by going white is Nissa because I have to make room for Rhinos. in GB, I would rather just keep the Nissa's as a haste threat.

[Bärmudas]

Hi guys,

I play a comboish Rector Fit variant with 3 Academy Rectors, Emrakul, 3 Diabolic Intent and Omniscience. Furthermore, I still have classical Nic Fit stuff like Rhino, Thragtusk and Sigarda in my list. In the past the deck worked very well but I don’t know how to compensate the loss of SDT. Currently I’m running 2 Libraries and 1 Mirri’s Guile but it’s worse than running 3 Tops. When I go for Omniscience, my hand is empty very frequently. When running Top in combination with Fetchies I was able to search for the cards I need, but Guile and Library are too slow or have already been destroyed by a Deed at that point. Maybe someone has an idea how I can keep the combo aspect of this deck. It was so much fun to create funny things with Top + Omniscience. Thanks for your help!

Decklist:
Land (20)
2x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
4x Windswept Heath

Enchantment (7)
1x Mirri's Guile
1x Omniscience
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Primeval Bounty
2x Sylvan Library

Creature (14)
3x Academy Rector
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Eternal Witness
1x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (15)
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Diabolic Intent
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Innocent Blood
2x Lingering Souls
1x Vindicate

Instant (2)
2x Abrupt Decay

Artifact (1)
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalker (1)
1x Garruk Relentless

[Brael]

I play a comboish Rector Fit variant with 3 Academy Rectors, Emrakul, 3 Diabolic Intent and Omniscience. Furthermore, I still have classical Nic Fit stuff like Rhino, Thragtusk and Sigarda in my list. In the past the deck worked very well but I don’t know how to compensate the loss of SDT. Currently I’m running 2 Libraries and 1 Mirri’s Guile but it’s worse than running 3 Tops. When I go for Omniscience, my hand is empty very frequently. When running Top in combination with Fetchies I was able to search for the cards I need, but Guile and Library are too slow or have already been destroyed by a Deed at that point. Maybe someone has an idea how I can keep the combo aspect of this deck. It was so much fun to create funny things with Top + Omniscience. Thanks for your help!


Crop Rotation is a tutor for sacrifice outlets and mana acceleration. Might want to keep that one in mind.

[Klobster]

Hi guys,

I play a comboish Rector Fit variant with 3 Academy Rectors, Emrakul, 3 Diabolic Intent and Omniscience. Furthermore, I still have classical Nic Fit stuff like Rhino, Thragtusk and Sigarda in my list. In the past the deck worked very well but I don’t know how to compensate the loss of SDT. Currently I’m running 2 Libraries and 1 Mirri’s Guile but it’s worse than running 3 Tops. When I go for Omniscience, my hand is empty very frequently. When running Top in combination with Fetchies I was able to search for the cards I need, but Guile and Library are too slow or have already been destroyed by a Deed at that point. Maybe someone has an idea how I can keep the combo aspect of this deck. It was so much fun to create funny things with Top + Omniscience. Thanks for your help!

Running 1-2 Cast out and 1 Sandwurm Convergence has been working great for me. Collective brutality is good if your running Starfield of Nyx or just to make use of flooding out due to lack of filtering.

[Bärmudas]

Nice idea to try out Nyx. I see a lot of synergy (e.g. Deed) there. I never checked Nyx Fit lists, but maybe Eidolon of Blossoms also could fit into it.

[square_two]

Nice idea to try out Nyx. I see a lot of synergy (e.g. Deed) there. I never checked Nyx Fit lists, but maybe Eidolon of Blossoms also could fit into it.

The recent development (on here at least) in the deck has been to use Evolutionary Leap + Lingering Souls in order to help find Rectors (and provide a sac outlet). These versions are running a very trimmed creature package of something like, 4 Vet 4 Rector 1 Eternal Witness 1 Sigarda. This has the added benefit of blanking virtually all of the opponent's single-target removal. Lingering Souls is just great on its own for defense or offense, as well as Therapy.

Entire deck is that small creature package, evo leap + souls, handful of powerful enchantments, and the rest is a ton of interactive removal. I was playing with something like, 3 Swords, 2 Brutalities, 2 Decays, 3 Deeds so you are safe from quite a bit.

The only downside is that Evo Leap is so binary - either it is stupid awesome and lets you chain Vets or Rectors, or it does nothing on an empty board. I think the pros outweigh the cons though. Very easy to Rector, leap it to get Dovescape, and you win on the spot (you get creatures aka Rectors to play out unhindered and sac to leap, so you can assemble Sandwurm Convergence the following turn very easily). (Souls is also 6 tokens under Dovescape btw!)

Edit: I had a match against BR Reanimator where he named Evo Leap with a Needle in game 3. So yeah, it can do work :laugh:

[Bärmudas]

That sounds like a funny combo! I think I'll test some brews with Nyx. I don't want to go all in on Rector (because of all the DRS out there :confused:), so I want to run some conventional Nic Fit stuff. Maybe I'll find a good mixture. Thanks for the brilliant input :)!

[Memories of the Time]

That sounds like a funny combo! I think I'll test some brews with Nyx. I don't want to go all in on Rector (because of all the DRS out there :confused:), so I want to run some conventional Nic Fit stuff. Maybe I'll find a good mixture. Thanks for the brilliant input :)!

Drs isn't a very big problem, not alone for sure. For example, among delver decks i fear Stifle over DRS

[Brael]

So maybe a week ago (or perhaps longer) Ralf and I had a small discussion on BUG and I've been wanting to try out new Nissa pretty bad. At first I was against using it in Nic Fit, but I'm starting to come around on that point.

The basic outline for the deck is that you need about 20 creatures as hits for the zero ability, and if you assume wanting to zero after no more than one +2, then you want the CMC of your creatures to be 3 or less. This knocks out Rhinos, and Nissa knocks out the Nissa we usually play. Still we get a lot of CA like this:

23 Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith

19 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix

19 Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Nissa, Sage of Elements
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

All in all, this incorporates a few things I want to try. Nissa/Jace, Tracker/Oboro (which I really like with Crop Rotation and 4 Tracker... this might make a non BUG list of mine in the future), and still being low to the ground, focused on acceleration. I'm not convinced it's good, lacking the blue for FoW or enough removal. But I want to try it even though it suffers from the usual BUG problems.

[Arianrhod]

So maybe a week ago (or perhaps longer) Ralf and I had a small discussion on BUG and I've been wanting to try out new Nissa pretty bad. At first I was against using it in Nic Fit, but I'm starting to come around on that point.

The basic outline for the deck is that you need about 20 creatures as hits for the zero ability, and if you assume wanting to zero after no more than one +2, then you want the CMC of your creatures to be 3 or less. This knocks out Rhinos, and Nissa knocks out the Nissa we usually play. Still we get a lot of CA like this:

23 Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith

19 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix

19 Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Nissa, Sage of Elements
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

All in all, this incorporates a few things I want to try. Nissa/Jace, Tracker/Oboro (which I really like with Crop Rotation and 4 Tracker... this might make a non BUG list of mine in the future), and still being low to the ground, focused on acceleration. I'm not convinced it's good, lacking the blue for FoW or enough removal. But I want to try it even though it suffers from the usual BUG problems.

I was trying to brew with 4 Tracker + Oboro when I did my write-up post-banning, but I couldn't figure out as way to make the shell work. I like the idea a lot, though.

[tescrin]

I've been thinking of doing something weird [as per usual] and have always wanted to do something like this:
'total/blue/artifact'

61/25/18
-14/8/10-
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Shardless Agent

-8/6/8-
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Tezzerett, Agent of Bolas

-20/11-
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

-19-
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Trop
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp

Extra comboage with Probe for the Therapy, all the lame CA stuff to hold the fort down, side win-con of Tezz, with Beaters an option off of Thopter or Tezz.
I've been thinking of Thopter Combo again because of the influx of TNNs. Flying over them and gaining life equal to the damage they deal is pretty easy.

Depending how shit my bant does tonight, maybe I'll try this out sunday

[Brael]

I was trying to brew with 4 Tracker + Oboro when I did my write-up post-banning, but I couldn't figure out as way to make the shell work. I like the idea a lot, though.

It's something I want to pull off. I'm not convinced blue is the way to go with it, Oboro can always be used as a colorless but I think Crop Rotation is key here to find it. You'll also notice that as I've been using Crop Rotation more I've gone up to 23 lands. Even 24 I wouldn't be opposed to at this point.

As usual for me, I just throw some random synergistic cards together and see which do and don't work.

I found my room for Trackers, basically by taking SDT's spots. I prefer playing SDT midgame anyways because I think it slows you down too much in the early turns. So Tracker is an easy switch, especially since multiples stack so well.

In my head I'm also working with 2 Junk builds right now (one Ranger of Eos, one SFM). It would have more powerful removal but without deathtouchers to help add quantity (and would lose the PW's). This is a very CA oriented build, even by my standards. 31 cards generate CA/CQ.

Edit: Just noticed the primer has no SFM lists. We should probably make a note about getting one added for the post SDT revision.

[Brael]

On the SFM front, I've got this for a Tracker build. I think I like SFM over the blue stuff, because the CA involves more optional mana sinks, and the equipment can make up for smaller creatures.

Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker

Spells 20
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Path to Exile
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

This is probably my type of build. A few good tutor options, but without extensive decision trees. Lots of CA, lots of removal, lots of threats, and a super low curve.

[Scott]

This Junk Fit list (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15424&d=293888&f=LE) top 8'ed a 47-player event last weekend.

// Lands
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves

// Instants & Sorceries
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
1 Toxic Deluge

// Enchantments
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Lost Legacy
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

[Echelon]

I found my room for Trackers, basically by taking SDT's spots. I prefer playing SDT midgame anyways because I think it slows you down too much in the early turns. So Tracker is an easy switch, especially since multiples stack so well.

That's an interesting idea. Going with that idea that would put me on this list:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

And Phyrexian Tower #2 could turn into a Volrath's Stronghold.

This should put the list (with a 10 fetchland manabase) on a lot of CA and pressure on the board. Might work. Would have to get 3 more Trackers though, and they're getting kinda pricy.

And yes people, I'm back!

[Ivan-784]

This Junk Fit list (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15424&d=293888&f=LE) top 8'ed a 47-player event last weekend.

// Lands
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves

// Instants & Sorceries
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
1 Toxic Deluge

// Enchantments
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Lost Legacy
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

Hi, this is my deck :)
The deck performed very well, even against nasty matchups like S&T and ANT.
I am thinking about replacing the SB Deed with a 2nd K-Grip, which is good against Batterskull, Sneak Attack and Inkmoth nexus.
What do you think about it?

[Brael]

That's an interesting idea. Going with that idea that would put me on this list:[cards]

Not a fan of Crop Rotations? I've really been liking the two of. What's great about them is Ooze is a natural swap for one since you can slide in Bojuka Bog, which means you effectively only have to find one cut, like DRS #3 since Rotation opens up the Tower starts for equal/better acceleration.

That in turn gives you a lot of fun things you can do with the manabase. Oboro with 2 Crop Rotation to find it, plus 4 Trackers, plus 4 GSZ to get them is pretty crazy.

[Scott]

Hi, this is my deck :)
The deck performed very well, even against nasty matchups like S&T and ANT.
I am thinking about replacing the SB Deed with a 2nd K-Grip, which is good against Batterskull, Sneak Attack and Inkmoth nexus.
What do you think about it?

Congrats!
I like to see Nic Fit do well so I like any list that places :laugh:

Did you miss Top?

[Arianrhod]

Math guys / SE guys:

Can anyone provide a quick number crunch on how many creatures or pseudocreatures (lingering souls, combat walkers, fetchlands with dryad arbor) you would want to run in order to justify 2 Diabolic Intents, such that they are live ~90% of the time before turn 5 or so?

I think it's going to end up somewhere around 24ish, but I'd like some actual number crunching to back up my assumption.

If it's too complex of a question, by all means ignore me! Just figured I'd ask.

[Ivan-784]

Congrats!
I like to see Nic Fit do well so I like any list that places :laugh:

Did you miss Top?

Thank you! :)
The same is for me, I really love this deck!
I did not really miss top. In fact, Top resulted to be necessary in long, grindy matches. But when the game is against burn, delver or a combo decks, you just want to play hatebears/lifegain/discard/removals and so on as soon as possible.

The deck has a nice topdeck by itself, many ways to generate card advantage and nasty fatties, hard to deal with. I'd say that the deck can live pretty well without SDT. The ScapeWish version will feel the loss more than any other Nic Fit variant, I think.

[Bobmans]

Hi, this is my deck :)
The deck performed very well, even against nasty matchups like S&T and ANT.
I am thinking about replacing the SB Deed with a 2nd K-Grip, which is good against Batterskull, Sneak Attack and Inkmoth nexus.
What do you think about it?
How do you feel about the card choices maindeck? Which cards standed out, positive or negative?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Brael]

Math guys / SE guys:

Can anyone provide a quick number crunch on how many creatures or pseudocreatures (lingering souls, combat walkers, fetchlands with dryad arbor) you would want to run in order to justify 2 Diabolic Intents, such that they are live ~90% of the time before turn 5 or so?

I think it's going to end up somewhere around 24ish, but I'd like some actual number crunching to back up my assumption.

If it's too complex of a question, by all means ignore me! Just figured I'd ask.

It gets a little complicated, because of how often creatures die off, and some cards provide more than one creature. For example, in order to have a creature to hit with on Intent Lingering Souls is only good as a single card but for the purposes of having targets is as good as having 4 others in the deck.

The way I would approach the question is how many creatures do you want total at that point? The way we figured creature numbers for SE is what you would need to have in order to have something after the opponent was run out of removal (and without Miracles around anymore this number is probably going to go down).

If you're thinking about it that way, it likely means you need one more creature than the opponent has removal. That's not something that can be easily answered right now, since the meta is in too much flux. I would say 8 fetches, an Arbor, and 7+ sac creatures is what you want.

Edit: The problem I've always found with Intent (and Therapy runs into this too, to an extent) is sacrificing a creature in a deck that wants good board presence can be really problematic. You can only afford a few slots to fodder cards. I think Lingering Souls is a good way around that issue, and other token cards are too, but those end up making GSZ a lot worse. I guess where I'm going with this is, what are you usually getting with Intent? Depending on the answer, there may be some better tutors.

[Brael]

Thank you! :)
The same is for me, I really love this deck!
I did not really miss top. In fact, Top resulted to be necessary in long, grindy matches. But when the game is against burn, delver or a combo decks, you just want to play hatebears/lifegain/discard/removals and so on as soon as possible.

The deck has a nice topdeck by itself, many ways to generate card advantage and nasty fatties, hard to deal with. I'd say that the deck can live pretty well without SDT. The ScapeWish version will feel the loss more than any other Nic Fit variant, I think.

I came to the same realization with Top which is why I had started to cut them. Early Tops just use too many resources, which slows you down significantly. They worked better as a mid-late game card.

Edit: Forgot to ask about the Wood Elves, was that just a card availability issue? Nissa should be better in any circumstance (especially since you don't have Vastwood Seers).

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Edit 2: Horizon Canopy is out of my SFM list again. Was goldfishing a few games, I never wanted to blow it up and it was costing me much more life than Bob ever does. That slot is becoming the 8th fetch again.

[Ivan-784]

How do you feel about the card choices maindeck? Which cards standed out, positive or negative?

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I did not feel bad about any of the cards. I just did not see Wood Elves and Grave Titan and could not evaluate them. Grave Titan has proved many times to be more than worthy in the past, btw.

Top cards?
Gaddock maindeck: gave a total boost against S&T. A must: he can win alone G1 vs ANT and can slow down other combos. If you don’t need it, you don’t simply play it and side it out in g2.
Dragonlord Dromoka: If deployed, wins alone vs delver decks.
Sigarda: she is the true queen of the deck. Nothing to say here.
Primeval Titan: almost never sided him out (maybe once vs burn). He rules even in a non-scapewish environment. A total blast vs S&T. Even if he dies as he enters, you can play it again with the 2 towers.
Recurring Nightmare: really strong, especially vs unfair decks which don’t side in grave hate. I made a nice trick with Primeval Titan, Recurring Nightmare and Ashen Rider vs S&T ;)



I came to the same realization with Top which is why I had started to cut them. Early Tops just use too many resources, which slows you down significantly. They worked better as a mid-late game card.

Edit: Forgot to ask about the Wood Elves, was that just a card availability issue? Nissa should be better in any circumstance (especially since you don't have Vastwood Seers).

----------------------------------
Edit 2: Horizon Canopy is out of my SFM list again. Was goldfishing a few games, I never wanted to blow it up and it was costing me much more life than Bob ever does. That slot is becoming the 8th fetch again.

I chose the Wood Elves because of my mana curve and the good sinergy with cabal/phyrexian tower/diabolic intent: with 3 six mana fatties I wanted to ramp fast.

I did not consider Nissa. Not because she’s not powerful, but because I did not think about her. :)
She could be a nice add to the deck, even if she forces you to play in a bit different way. Let’s talk a bit about pros and cons:

Wood elves:
+ Better when you want to ramp.
+ May get bayou or savannah, and fix your mana
- Smaller body
- Little or no influence in lategame

Nissa:
+ Really powerful lategame: can give great card advantage and may win the game alone.
+ Bigger body
+ Potential threat: with vets in the deck she may flip fast. Opponent could choose to use a removal on her, opening the road for our fatties
+ Better sinergy with Tracker than the elf
- Less useful if you want to ramp fast
- she forces you to leave at least 1 basic forest in the deck if you want to use her ability, so you have to be more careful with fetches and veterans
- only basic forests, so no mana fix.

I think I’ll give her a chance, since as I said before, I played the whole day without Wood Elves and never GSZ'd for them.

[Bobmans]

I did not feel bad about any of the cards. I just did not see Wood Elves and Grave Titan and could not evaluate them. Grave Titan has proved many times to be more than worthy in the past, btw.

Top cards?
Gaddock maindeck: gave a total boost against S&T. A must: he can win alone G1 vs ANT and can slow down other combos. If you don’t need it, you don’t simply play it and side it out in g2.
Dragonlord Dromoka: If deployed, wins alone vs delver decks.
Sigarda: she is the true queen of the deck. Nothing to say here.
Primeval Titan: almost never sided him out (maybe once vs burn). He rules even in a non-scapewish environment. A total blast vs S&T. Even if he dies as he enters, you can play it again with the 2 towers.
Recurring Nightmare: really strong, especially vs unfair decks which don’t side in grave hate. I made a nice trick with Primeval Titan, Recurring Nightmare and Ashen Rider vs S&T ;)

I chose the Wood Elves because of my mana curve and the good sinergy with cabal/phyrexian tower/diabolic intent: with 3 six mana fatties I wanted to ramp fast.

I did not consider Nissa. Not because she’s not powerful, but because I did not think about her. :)
She could be a nice add to the deck, even if she forces you to play in a bit different way. Let’s talk a bit about pros and cons:

Wood elves:
+ Better when you want to ramp.
+ May get bayou or savannah, and fix your mana
- Smaller body
- Little or no influence in lategame

Nissa:
+ Really powerful lategame: can give great card advantage and may win the game alone.
+ Bigger body
+ Potential threat: with vets in the deck she may flip fast. Opponent could choose to use a removal on her, opening the road for our fatties
+ Better sinergy with Tracker than the elf
- Less useful if you want to ramp fast
- she forces you to leave at least 1 basic forest in the deck if you want to use her ability, so you have to be more careful with fetches and veterans
- only basic forests, so no mana fix.

I think I’ll give her a chance, since as I said before, I played the whole day without Wood Elves and never GSZ'd for them.


Currently i am toying around with Renegade Rallier in this slot. I have always like Nissa, Vastwood Seer. When played at correct it generates so much value. It is only that i find it a bit awkward with Nissa, Vital Force which has become an auto include in every build i play.
Rallier can also fix mana, although it is slightly more conditional. You need to crack a fetch, sac a creature or something must die in combat, etc. But it can potentially generate some other value like returning QPM or Sylvan Library. Next to Recurring Nightmare or the Two Towers it can also get pretty nasty real quickly. I have always seen it as a lesser version of Eternal Witness, but it has a different and interesting angle on itself. It is a pity that there aren't more targets for it in NicFit in general. Perhaps that a SFM version has most ways to exploit the card.

[Brael]

Currently i am toying around with Renegade Rallier in this slot. I have always like Nissa, Vastwood Seer. When played at correct it generates so much value. It is only that i find it a bit awkward with Nissa, Vital Force which has become an auto include in every build i play.
Rallier can also fix mana, although it is slightly more conditional. You need to crack a fetch, sac a creature or something must die in combat, etc. But it can potentially generate some other value like returning QPM or Sylvan Library. Next to Recurring Nightmare or the Two Towers it can also get pretty nasty real quickly. I have always seen it as a lesser version of Eternal Witness, but it has a different and interesting angle on itself. It is a pity that there aren't more targets for it in NicFit in general. Perhaps that a SFM version has most ways to exploit the card.

I was going to play it over Eternal Witness in my recent SFM build, but instead I cut the slot entirely.

[Ivan-784]

Currently i am toying around with Renegade Rallier in this slot. I have always like Nissa, Vastwood Seer. When played at correct it generates so much value. It is only that i find it a bit awkward with Nissa, Vital Force which has become an auto include in every build i play.
Rallier can also fix mana, although it is slightly more conditional. You need to crack a fetch, sac a creature or something must die in combat, etc. But it can potentially generate some other value like returning QPM or Sylvan Library. Next to Recurring Nightmare or the Two Towers it can also get pretty nasty real quickly. I have always seen it as a lesser version of Eternal Witness, but it has a different and interesting angle on itself. It is a pity that there aren't more targets for it in NicFit in general. Perhaps that a SFM version has most ways to exploit the card.

I had been thinking about Nissa Vital Force for a while. She seems really powerful against control decks, but a bit weak against aggro. She puts a fast clock against combo decks too, but it's the same for any of our fat guys. I'm not 100% on it.

On renegade rallier: he is quite powerful, but i see it fitting better in "lighter" decks, with strong 2 mana drops. Also, he is totally on graveyard stuff. I tend to balance things to avoid being screw'd off by grave hate. That's why I like to play Steve and Wood Elves in addition to Veteran Explorers.

[LVA]

I had been thinking about Nissa Vital Force for a while. She seems really powerful against control decks, but a bit weak against aggro. She puts a fast clock against combo decks too, but it's the same for any of our fat guys. I'm not 100% on it.


The way control decks usually beat us is with jace, and since nissa is great against jace I think it is worth it.