[Primer] Nic Fit

[Brael]

Since I can not get Sneak Fit to work, i was tinkering with straigth GB. Surprisingly good i believe. Very fast and able to operate on very few mana if needed

21 Land( 1Arbor, 2 Tower, 1 Stronghold)

4 Deathrite
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Green Sun`s Zenith

2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Liliana, the last hope


S:

3 Surgicals
2 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lost Legacy
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Obstinate Baloth



Anyone else had the same ideas?

You're running similar to what I run. I suggest using 4 Lost Legacy, and another 4 drop. Liliana hasn't impressed me, and you likely want more land. Consider the Crop Rotation package.

[Brael]

Since a few days I am experimanting with Bone Picker. I also endet in a streigt GB Nic Fit list with Bone Picker.
Very often you get him for B through Cabal therapy and Veteran Explorer. 3/2 Flying deathtouch is a house!

Liliana, Heretical Healer is also an idea in this deck!

Too much removal in Legacy is exile based for dies triggers to be reliable. Keep that in mind with Liliana.

[Dalton!]

Another 4 drop? What would it be? Thrun, Master of the wild Hunt? A planeswalker?

2 4Drops
2 5Drops
That would be the max of you are running confis i think. Grim Flayer. Is that a Card? I believe he does not make the cut. Has anyone testet hin?


Crop Rotation package is the DD-Combo?

[Brael]

Another 4 drop? What would it be? Thrun, Master of the wild Hunt? A planeswalker?

2 4Drops
2 5Drops
That would be the max of you are running confis i think. Grim Flayer. Is that a Card? I believe he does not make the cut. Has anyone testet hin?


Crop Rotation package is the DD-Combo?

By 4 drop, I mean a 4 drop creature. Use it in place of the second Nissa. Your removal count is lacking too, so I would suggest Master of the Wild Hunt, it's slow but it is CA and removal and tutorable.

The Crop Rotation package varies, but at a minimum it includes a Phyrexian Tower and Volrath's Stronghold. Anything else is up to you, but I'm a fan of a Bojuka Bog and a Karakas or Maze of Ith.

Grim Flayer isn't playable in Legacy, DRS does too much damage to it. I've been trying hard to get Delirium to work... but it's not easy without including Dredge cards, and if you're doing that, you're optimally just a totally different deck.

Here's the 76 I'm playing (starting next week I should hopefully be back to regularly playing Legacy)
Land 24
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt

Spells 19
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Planeswalker 1
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Sideboard 15
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Carpet of Flowers
4 Lost Legacy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Maze of Ith
1 Treetop Village
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Flex slot

[Secretly.A.Bee]

When Delirium is turned on, Grim Flayer tramples over a TNN and lives to tell the tale. To me, that makes him able to be a consideration.

Bone Picker was my idea in this deck; alas, I haven't had to time to do it justice, nor do I believe I have the time put in to understand the ideas behind the deck to make this idea work.

I hope someone can, because he was pretty good when the deck did it's thing.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Brael]

When Delirium is turned on, Grim Flayer tramples over a TNN and lives to tell the tale. To me, that makes him able to be a consideration.

TNN is usually seen along DRS though, which means your GY is never going to have the types it needs to turn on Delirium.

And, when not seen aside DRS it's seen with Swords to Plowshares which makes getting a creature type in your GY difficult.

[Dalton!]

Find a little testing.

Results are:

Obstinate Baloth is a very good card. I wonder of he ist not underplayed in the Format

Master of the wild hunt is slow. Like really slow. I die not like him. Garruk relentless took his place. But that feld like to few Zenith Targets

3 Decay, 2 Collective Brutality, 2 Edicts, 1 Deed, 1 Deluge, 1 Pulse are the way to go i believe

4 Lost Legacy. Everything you can not handle you simply cut out of their Deck before resolving. Feels very good.

[Brael]

I like Baloth, I don't usually play it unless I'm expecting a bunch of Liliana, but it's not bad. The lifegain is pretty nice with Bob. If that's your concern, there's also Kitchen Finks to look at. One of the shells I've thrown around is Finks/Baloth/Thragtusk for a lifegain curve with Bob.

Garruk is a reasonable alternative to Master of the Wild Hunt.

I agree about the GSZ target issue though. In that situation the only 5 mana opening you have with GSZ is to get Meren which is very weak at that stage of the game. It could be that the 4th Tracker should be Garruk and a 4 drop creature should still be in there alongside Meren. If you want a 4 drop that hits hard, I've had some good success with Chameleon Colossus. It dodges most removal, curves perfectly on a high mana start, and hits hard. The protection is also nice as a form of evasion to get around things like Angler.

[Rome]

Hmm
And whats about putting Solemnity and a infinite Persist Combo in this Deck?
Also Knight of the Reliquary and Dark Depths?

[Brael]

Hmm
And whats about putting Solemnity and a infinite Persist Combo in this Deck?
Also Knight of the Reliquary and Dark Depths?

Knight has been used from time to time, but using it with Dark Depths has usually proven to be too slow. Persist is a bad idea, there's too much GY hate in the format, and the best card against us is quietly Rest in Peace already. We don't want to make that weakness worse.

Dark Depths has seen better success with Crop Rotation, but if you're new to the deck I wouldn't recommend that strategy, it's not optimal. It's more along the type of thing you can play for fun once you really understand the deck/meta. The only DD build that might be worth playing competitively is the Cloudpost build.

[AtticusBlaqk]

Find a little testing.

Results are:

Obstinate Baloth is a very good card. I wonder of he ist not underplayed in the Format

Master of the wild hunt is slow. Like really slow. I die not like him. Garruk relentless took his place. But that feld like to few Zenith Targets

3 Decay, 2 Collective Brutality, 2 Edicts, 1 Deed, 1 Deluge, 1 Pulse are the way to go i believe

4 Lost Legacy. Everything you can not handle you simply cut out of their Deck before resolving. Feels very good.

I agree that Master of the Wild Hunt is pretty slow and I don't think that I would consider playing it as the only source of wolf tokens. I've played it beside a Garruk Relentless for extra 2/2s and/or Deathtouch Master activations.

[Dalton!]

I have been so impressed with the Baloth that i consider him for sneak fit, too. Goes well with 2Deluge main.

[Echelon]

I can see the life boost being nice, but is the butt big enough to count as a secondary game plan..? And if it is, why keep bothering w/ the clunky combo plan rather than going back to regular Jund Fit..? It may not end games as fast, but is a lot easier to pull off.

[Dalton!]

Because Combo can win games you would loose?:-)

Honestly: i do not know. I asked me the same question. The problem with me is that i am struggling with the Deck since top is gone.
No matter how and what i build something feels off. I Ten to loose because having nothing. More than often i beg that something gameending would be on top of my lybrary. But without top you can not really controll that.

[Echelon]

Because Combo can win games you would loose?:-)

Honestly: i do not know. I asked me the same question. The problem with me is that i am struggling with the Deck since top is gone.
No matter how and what i build something feels off. I Ten to loose because having nothing. More than often i beg that something gameending would be on top of my lybrary. But without top you can not really controll that.

You could always do some testing w/ Mirri's Guile or multiple Sylvan Libraries to compensate for the loss of Top.

I used to run a different combo build, but cutting the combo altogether just made the deck run so much more efficient and smoothly. Sure, you don't have the accidental "I win"-button anymore, but you do make up for that w/ the gained consistency. Look at Junk Fit - Siege Rhino and Sigarda are absolutely no Emrakul, but they are perfectly capable of getting the job done.

[Dalton!]

Do you mind posting a list?

I tested and didnt liked both enchantments. I would rather go full Tireless Tracker.
The consistency issued you talked about ist something i could See, too. Maybe i will go that route next time.

[Echelon]

What kind of list are you looking for? An update of the combo skeleton, or what I currently actually play as my Junk Fit list?

[Dalton!]

The combo would be nice.

In regards of the fair lists. Stormbreath Dragon must be a powerful card right now. No Push, no Decay, no Sword can kill it. 4 of them as the end of the curve. Sounds something between stupid and fun. Glorybringer maybe too. And Flametongue Kavu. Creatures with build in removal seem somehow cool.

I think i will tinker with that, too

[Echelon]

Combo skeleton it is. Mind you, this is non color specific.

Manabase:
22 land

Removal suite:
4 spotremoval
3 sweepers
4 Cabal Therapy

Combo suite:
4 combo card of choice (in your case Sneak Attack)
4 bombs (for Sneak Attack probably 2 Woodland Bellower and 2 Emrakul)

Consistency package:
2 Fierce Empath
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Intent

Creature package
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gurmag Angler or Tasigur, as GSZ into Empath'able plan B.

I think this skeleton also illustrates quite well why the combo plan is so much harder to pull off - it's rather slow and fragile. Cut the combo package (and everything associated to it) and you get another 12 or so slots fo fill with no nonsense, go straight for the throat business cards. In my case, I filled in those slots with a big, juicy creature tree that lets me mix and match stuff to maximize synergy for most situations.

[Navsi]

Combo skeleton it is. Mind you, this is non color specific.

Manabase:
22 land

Removal suite:
4 spotremoval
3 sweepers
4 Cabal Therapy

Combo suite:
4 combo card of choice (in your case Sneak Attack)
4 bombs (for Sneak Attack probably 2 Woodland Bellower and 2 Emrakul)

Consistency package:
2 Fierce Empath
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Intent

Creature package
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gurmag Angler or Tasigur, as GSZ into Empath'able plan B.

I think this skeleton also illustrates quite well why the combo plan is so much harder to pull off - it's rather slow and fragile. Cut the combo package (and everything associated to it) and you get another 12 or so slots fo fill with no nonsense, go straight for the throat business cards. In my case, I filled in those slots with a big, juicy creature tree that lets me mix and match stuff to maximize synergy for most situations.

The trick is to not mess around with so many redundant consistency pirces, and cut the Guiles and Intents for just 3 library and more creatures. Deathrite (and probably Angler) also goes for more relevant creatures. This works because your 'bombs' are also playable cards in their own right. If your bomb package is Woodland Bellower, Inferno Titan, Emrakul - you only have one card you can't cast anyway, and the other two also help out by providing card advantage and removal. It's not like you are just playing four Emrakuls and hoping you draw Sneak for them to not be dead. You don't lose 12 slots, you lose five.

[Brael]

The combo would be nice.

In regards of the fair lists. Stormbreath Dragon must be a powerful card right now. No Push, no Decay, no Sword can kill it. 4 of them as the end of the curve. Sounds something between stupid and fun. Glorybringer maybe too. And Flametongue Kavu. Creatures with build in removal seem somehow cool.

I think i will tinker with that, too

4 Stormbreath seems to me like too much, but it's definitely powerful. We're generally looking for something we can tutor for though and there's not a good tutor for Stormbreath. There's probably a way to play it in a Jund list.

[Echelon]

The trick is to not mess around with so many redundant consistency pirces, and cut the Guiles and Intents for just 3 library and more creatures. Deathrite (and probably Angler) also goes for more relevant creatures. This works because your 'bombs' are also playable cards in their own right. If your bomb package is Woodland Bellower, Inferno Titan, Emrakul - you only have one card you can't cast anyway, and the other two also help out by providing card advantage and removal. It's not like you are just playing four Emrakuls and hoping you draw Sneak for them to not be dead. You don't lose 12 slots, you lose five.

So yes to 6 mana cards, but no to extra mana. Interesting. As for Guiles vs. Libraries - speed matters, but that's just my opinion.

As for lost slots - you wouldn't normally run stuff like Empath, now would you? And if you choose to not run those in your creature oriented combo builds you risk falling into the "I-can't-assemble-the-pieces"-trap.

Anyways, that for me still is a reason to not run combo at all with a platform like this unless it'd fit into the shell naturally.

@Dalton!: I agree w/ Brael on the number of Stormdragons - 2 5-drops would be around max, normally.

[Navsi]

So yes to 6 mana cards, but no to extra mana. Interesting. As for Guiles vs. Libraries - speed matters, but that's just my opinion.

As for lost slots - you wouldn't normally run stuff like Empath, now would you? And if you choose to not run those in your creature oriented combo builds you risk falling into the "I-can't-assemble-the-pieces"-trap.

Anyways, that for me still is a reason to not run combo at all with a platform like this unless it'd fit into the shell naturally.

You already have twelve ramp cards in Explorer, Zenith and Sneak Attack. I haven't found more than that to be necessary.

Empath is a fine card. I've played him in fair builds before. He's a reasonable value creature, since being able to Zenith for 'Inferno Titan you next turn' is actually a very solid line. I'm not saying you cut him - I'm saying that Empath (and the six drops) still do work without Sneak so we are nowhere near as all-in on the combo plan as something like Sneak and Show.

[Echelon]

Or, you know, you go for GSZ for x = 5 this turn (or, if you're still a mana short, hold on to GSZ a turn longer and play something else instead) and save yourself the Empath slots altogether.

On the other hand, Empath does play very well w/ Cabal Therapy or even Diabolic Intent - you really do not care about it dying and that (possibly double) CT might just be what you need to be able to push through that 6 drop the following turn. So there is that.

[Dalton!]

I do not know if it is just nonsense, but i really like idea of in pushable, unswordable haste creatures that fly as a four-off. If you could only Tutor them.

You could Zenith Wasitora, Cat Dragon Queen. That Card ist so funny i can see me testing her l,too

I played Rhinos last week and that was just: rhino-push-rhino-push.:frown: No Fun at all.

[Echelon]

I played Rhinos last week and that was just: rhino-push-rhino-push.:frown: No Fun at all.

You should have gone rhino-push-rhino-push-rhino. That's why you run 4. And GSZ. And Library/Guile.

Isn't there some 5 mana Gxy creature so you can GSZ it? I get that Verdurous Gearhulk may not be all that great at the moment b/c of Kolaghan's Command, but there were some others mentioned a few pages back I believe. Kalonian Hydra was one, I think. It's 8/8 trample the first time it turns sideways, 16/16 the second.

[Dalton!]

Oh that Hydra is something i could see me looking into. It has to survive until tue next turn, but if she does she goes over almost everything.

[Ralf]

Oh that Hydra is something i could see me looking into. It has to survive until tue next turn, but if she does she goes over almost everything.

I also mentioned good old Chameleon Colossus (with kalonian Hydra) and I have troubles to choose between one or the other.

Chameleon does not care about Gurmag, Strix, BSK's token and DRS (not to mention dismember, push) and can push the last points of damage against Marit Lage whereas Kalonian tramples over almost everything (MoR, TNN) but needs a full turn to be THE DEAL.

More feedbacks will be necessary and I cannot see playing two beaters unfortunately.

[toletole]

Would Food Chain and Eternal Scourge be good in this shell? It seems very good on paper. FC is very hard to deal with. Also mixing up some GSZ with Eldritch Evolution.

[Brael]

You should have gone rhino-push-rhino-push-rhino. That's why you run 4. And GSZ. And Library/Guile.

Isn't there some 5 mana Gxy creature so you can GSZ it? I get that Verdurous Gearhulk may not be all that great at the moment b/c of Kolaghan's Command, but there were some others mentioned a few pages back I believe. Kalonian Hydra was one, I think. It's 8/8 trample the first time it turns sideways, 16/16 the second.

Did we ever try Plated Crusher? Too expensive?


I also mentioned good old Chameleon Colossus (with kalonian Hydra) and I have troubles to choose between one or the other.

Chameleon does not care about Gurmag, Strix, BSK's token and DRS (not to mention dismember, push) and can push the last points of damage against Marit Lage whereas Kalonian tramples over almost everything (MoR, TNN) but needs a full turn to be THE DEAL.

More feedbacks will be necessary and I cannot see playing two beaters unfortunately.

I play Chameleon off and on. It's really good. It threatens being an 8/8 at minimum, and it has protection from the color of the best creatures and the best removal. If you get it later in the game it can threaten being a 16/16. It's really hard to block outside of Young Pyromancer/TNN doing things.

[Echelon]

Plated Crusher is definetely too expensive.

[crowe_1]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16595&d=302622&f=LE

This Rector build made Top 8 of a small tournament in France. Lot of spice in there.

[Dalton!]

If you want a hexproof trample Monster look out for the T-Rex from Ixalan. It has cmc 6 with only 2 green and stats of 7/6. Can not be countered, too. Thrunosaurus Rex.:wink:

[Navsi]

yeah Carnage Tyrant looks excellent for us. As far as other zenithable 5-drops go, Titania and Thragtusk are both pretty solid. In white there's obviously also Sigarda - blue doesn't have much for additional options - red has the new Wasitora, Samut and Xenagod, all of which are probably not quite good enough though.

[Ulysse95]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16595&d=302622&f=LE

This Rector build made Top 8 of a small tournament in France. Lot of spice in there.

Yes, it's mine. Still work in progress ^^
I can do the report later if you want.

[square_two]

Yes, it's mine. Still work in progress ^^
I can do the report later if you want.

Great work sir! Glad to see the original nyx fit tinkerer still doing well and throwing around some spice.

Glad to see -1 GSZ, full playset of Lingering Souls, and 3 Evo Leaps. I have felt that focusing more on the engine would do well.

Curious if you had any trouble against Storm/Combo due to lack of mainboard hate such as Dovescape/Leyline/Curse of Exhaustion. Was Curse of Predation any help in aggroing out with spirits? Curse of Misfortunes work well?

Suppose this might be answered in a report :)

[JackaBo]

Great work sir! Glad to see the original nyx fit tinkerer still doing well and throwing around some spice.

Glad to see -1 GSZ, full playset of Lingering Souls, and 3 Evo Leaps. I have felt that focusing more on the engine would do well.

Curious if you had any trouble against Storm/Combo due to lack of mainboard hate such as Dovescape/Leyline/Curse of Exhaustion. Was Curse of Predation any help in aggroing out with spirits? Curse of Misfortunes work well?

Suppose this might be answered in a report :)

I am also curious about the land enchantment... i don't get it

I also very much like the proactive gameplan with full set of souls and tripple leaps for consistency. I'd like to hear your reasoning of your pay off cards too!

[Dalton!]

Ixalan Spoiler for another T-Rex. Some User of MTGS seems to have figured out what he does.

Regisaur Alpha :3::r::g:

Dinosaurs you control have haste

When Regisaur alpha enters the battlefield
Create a 3/3 Green Dinosaur creature token
with trample

[Ulysse95]

Great work sir! Glad to see the original nyx fit tinkerer still doing well and throwing around some spice.

Glad to see -1 GSZ, full playset of Lingering Souls, and 3 Evo Leaps. I have felt that focusing more on the engine would do well.

Curious if you had any trouble against Storm/Combo due to lack of mainboard hate such as Dovescape/Leyline/Curse of Exhaustion. Was Curse of Predation any help in aggroing out with spirits? Curse of Misfortunes work well?

Suppose this might be answered in a report :)

Yeah, lingering souls are really very polyvalent. Some times they buy you time, some time they agro your opponnent to death or just deal with a planeswalker. And some times they are card advantage with evo.

Curse of predation is a house. With an open way (cabal) and 4 spirits, it's a 2 turns clock. With Living plane it's huge too. Sort of combo with Finks whom can already give life and 2 creatures with leap. But not totally sure about him yet.

I think that the mainboard hate you mention are too slow in the end. So what's the point.
In fact I was against TES on my first round. I was really lucky I think...

Curse of Misfortune got the slot of Starfield. Same CCM, get CA to the field on his own, it isn't GY dependant and get Death's hold and Splendor which are combo on there own. + Curse of predation has a bonus time or sometime as a first target depending on the game state. With 1 rector you get 2/3 usefull enchants already !
Starfield wasn't that good in this shell because deed is not as relevant as before, as the other use and trash enchantements set. And without them, starfield is often irrelevant... Witness can do the job.


I am also curious about the land enchantment... i don't get it

I also very much like the proactive gameplan with full set of souls and tripple leaps for consistency. I'd like to hear your reasoning of your pay off cards too!

The land enchantement is a ramp card that go over STE since we don't want to cross him in a leap. Plus it can protect our few non basic lands. But it's still in testing. Don't know yet what the slot will be. Want to try utopia sprawl (T3 Lost legacy / Lingering / or quick Sorrow against Elves). Or if deed come back, should put a sorcery ramp card perhaps...

I was disappointed by Nodes... I used to play 2 toxic but sometimes life cost is just too high... Will try drown in sorrow.

I liked Mirri's guile, but wasn't enought... I wanted to switch with scroll rack but had only one at the moment.
Scroll rack is huge here. Often you draw your curses or basic that you want to tutor in... And it's really powerfull with leap (trashing away the cards you don't want like BS + cascade). As you can get back cards from leap+lingering and have a quite hight curve (4 rector, Living plane and 3 5+ curses), you often get some cards in hand.

Sorrin did his job: gain life + tokens to leap. Sometimes an emblem for a fast souls clock...


So the report!

Monthly tournament of a parisian shop with 29 players.
My list as above: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16595&d=302622&f=LE

R1: TES 2/1

On the 1, he probed me and I wasn't a threat. So I took his time I think. He discarded me with duress a trace of abundance over a leap to slow me down. I already had Mirri's guile on the field and get my vet and then my cabal... His 2nd duress had no hit. And a quick Living plane combo gave me the win.
The 2nd he T1 22 gob for the win.
The 3d I cabal T1 on burning wish and got 2 of them. Then Mirri got me surgical and another cabal get is last way of killing me: the tendrils that he had in hand... (had lost legacy on top either way..)

R2: BUG Fit Walkers 2/0

It was a friend of mine new to the deck and that I beat to the ground a few days before with Cruel Reality MD... So I had the psychological edge ;)
The 2 games his Garruck was useless. Liliana or Jace either.
I got him with the curse combo.

R3: Moon Moon 0/2

An other teamate who won the tournament in the end.
We were both conscient that I had a quite good match up. But one game I never find a sac outlet for a vet and a rector on the table. His clock went faster. With chandra + fiery confl on the first. Hazoreth + Fiery on the 2 (I didn't get that all his damage effect are none targeting and so I put in useless leylines ... ^^')

R4: Aggro Loam : 2/0

And again a teamate... One of the two of us get of the top with this round..
Lily was quite useless with lingerin souls.
I got with living plane + splendor on a game and living plane + predatory curse on the other one I think.
Remember that a leyline helped me on the 2.

R5: RUW blade : 2/0 9 points.

Against a very sympathic player I often met.
I'm 7th, is 8th, so we have to play because there's players with 7 points.
Cabal was a house with stoneforge and everything. Splendor... overwhelming (tutor resolves into splendor: your Jitte has counter but don't do a shit, as your fetch by the way). Or Death Hold on a board state with TNN, Pyro and his elementals..

TOP 8
The others did ID so I ended first of the board.
I met ... Zombardement.

1/4: Zombardement 0/2

Easy win I thought but I got really unlucky I think. I got really slow at the first. And didn't get what missed to me even with Mirri's Guile until he put a sac/discard loop to block my draw step (just when I finally found a rector..)
The 2nd one I kept a cocky hand with 3 surgical. He didn't drew anu GY interaction before he find a cabal... My witness was enought to stall the board but he got 2 DRS which basiclly killed me... And he wasted my tower with his only wasteland like 1 turn before I got a rector (with only 4 mana on the field). It was my last turn to do something...
Splendor would have win me this game at least...

So, happy to do top 8 with this new shell in progress but a bit sad with the ending.

The tournament ended with my two loss in final: Moon Moon against Zombardement ! Quite unusual!! :D

And here is what I want to try next with this experiment (but I will give a try to a Sneak Fit version before that and perhaps a GB agro crop version):

1 [R] Bayou
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains (just because mine is pretty)
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
3 [UNH] Swamp
4 [UNH] Forest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [] Windswept Heath
1 [] Eternal Witness
4 [UD] Academy Rector
4 [] Veteran Explorer
2 [TE] Scroll Rack
1 [ISD] Curse of Death's Hold
1 [DKA] Curse of Misfortunes
1 [C13] Curse of Predation
1 [LG] Living Plane
1 [] Overwhelming Splendor
2 [] Cast Out
2 [] Ghostly Prison
3 [] Evolutionary Leap
3 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
2 [BNG] Drown in Sorrow
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
SB: 2 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [] Containment Priest
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [] Lost Legacy
SB: 2 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 [] Pernicious Deed

[Echelon]

I'm looking forward to see what other toys Ixalan might bring us. Also, dinosaurs.

[JackaBo]

Yeah, lingering souls are really very polyvalent. Some times they buy you time, some time they agro your opponnent to death or just deal with a planeswalker. And some times they are card advantage with evo.

Curse of predation is a house. With an open way (cabal) and 4 spirits, it's a 2 turns clock. With Living plane it's huge too. Sort of combo with Finks whom can already give life and 2 creatures with leap. But not totally sure about him yet.

I think that the mainboard hate you mention are too slow in the end. So what's the point.
In fact I was against TES on my first round. I was really lucky I think...

Curse of Misfortune got the slot of Starfield. Same CCM, get CA to the field on his own, it isn't GY dependant and get Death's hold and Splendor which are combo on there own. + Curse of predation has a bonus time or sometime as a first target depending on the game state. With 1 rector you get 2/3 usefull enchants already !
Starfield wasn't that good in this shell because deed is not as relevant as before, as the other use and trash enchantements set. And without them, starfield is often irrelevant... Witness can do the job.



The land enchantement is a ramp card that go over STE since we don't want to cross him in a leap. Plus it can protect our few non basic lands. But it's still in testing. Don't know yet what the slot will be. Want to try utopia sprawl (T3 Lost legacy / Lingering / or quick Sorrow against Elves). Or if deed come back, should put a sorcery ramp card perhaps...

I was disappointed by Nodes... I used to play 2 toxic but sometimes life cost is just too high... Will try drown in sorrow.

I liked Mirri's guile, but wasn't enought... I wanted to switch with scroll rack but had only one at the moment.
Scroll rack is huge here. Often you draw your curses or basic that you want to tutor in... And it's really powerfull with leap (trashing away the cards you don't want like BS + cascade). As you can get back cards from leap+lingering and have a quite hight curve (4 rector, Living plane and 3 5+ curses), you often get some cards in hand.

Sorrin did his job: gain life + tokens to leap. Sometimes an emblem for a fast souls clock...


So the report!

Monthly tournament of a parisian shop with 29 players.
My list as above: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16595&d=302622&f=LE

R1: TES 2/1

On the 1, he probed me and I wasn't a threat. So I took his time I think. He discarded me with duress a trace of abundance over a leap to slow me down. I already had Mirri's guile on the field and get my vet and then my cabal... His 2nd duress had no hit. And a quick Living plane combo gave me the win.
The 2nd he T1 22 gob for the win.
The 3d I cabal T1 on burning wish and got 2 of them. Then Mirri got me surgical and another cabal get is last way of killing me: the tendrils that he had in hand... (had lost legacy on top either way..)

R2: BUG Fit Walkers 2/0

It was a friend of mine new to the deck and that I beat to the ground a few days before with Cruel Reality MD... So I had the psychological edge ;)
The 2 games his Garruck was useless. Liliana or Jace either.
I got him with the curse combo.

R3: Moon Moon 0/2

An other teamate who won the tournament in the end.
We were both conscient that I had a quite good match up. But one game I never find a sac outlet for a vet and a rector on the table. His clock went faster. With chandra + fiery confl on the first. Hazoreth + Fiery on the 2 (I didn't get that all his damage effect are none targeting and so I put in useless leylines ... ^^')

R4: Aggro Loam : 2/0

And again a teamate... One of the two of us get of the top with this round..
Lily was quite useless with lingerin souls.
I got with living plane + splendor on a game and living plane + predatory curse on the other one I think.
Remember that a leyline helped me on the 2.

R5: RUW blade : 2/0 9 points.

Against a very sympathic player I often met.
I'm 7th, is 8th, so we have to play because there's players with 7 points.
Cabal was a house with stoneforge and everything. Splendor... overwhelming (tutor resolves into splendor: your Jitte has counter but don't do a shit, as your fetch by the way). Or Death Hold on a board state with TNN, Pyro and his elementals..

TOP 8
The others did ID so I ended first of the board.
I met ... Zombardement.

1/4: Zombardement 0/2

Easy win I thought but I got really unlucky I think. I got really slow at the first. And didn't get what missed to me even with Mirri's Guile until he put a sac/discard loop to block my draw step (just when I finally found a rector..)
The 2nd one I kept a cocky hand with 3 surgical. He didn't drew anu GY interaction before he find a cabal... My witness was enought to stall the board but he got 2 DRS which basiclly killed me... And he wasted my tower with his only wasteland like 1 turn before I got a rector (with only 4 mana on the field). It was my last turn to do something...
Splendor would have win me this game at least...

So, happy to do top 8 with this new shell in progress but a bit sad with the ending.

The tournament ended with my two loss in final: Moon Moon against Zombardement ! Quite unusual!! :D

And here is what I want to try next with this experiment (but I will give a try to a Sneak Fit version before that and perhaps a GB agro crop version):

1 [R] Bayou
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains (just because mine is pretty)
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
3 [UNH] Swamp
4 [UNH] Forest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [] Windswept Heath
1 [] Eternal Witness
4 [UD] Academy Rector
4 [] Veteran Explorer
2 [TE] Scroll Rack
1 [ISD] Curse of Death's Hold
1 [DKA] Curse of Misfortunes
1 [C13] Curse of Predation
1 [LG] Living Plane
1 [] Overwhelming Splendor
2 [] Cast Out
2 [] Ghostly Prison
3 [] Evolutionary Leap
3 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
2 [BNG] Drown in Sorrow
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
SB: 2 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [] Containment Priest
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [] Lost Legacy
SB: 2 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 [] Pernicious Deed

Man, I really like your reasoning and deck construction. On one side I'm sad that you dont (need to) run Sandwurm Convergence since my deck is known as the #Würmmachine in our LGS. But on the other hand you play the reason I bought into this deck in the first place, Living plane.
I like how you replaced Sandwurm Convergence with another card that can win on it's own, curse of misfortunes.
My only worry with you list is, how do you deal with shamans? I never get to resolve a rector trigger versus shaman decks without running 6+ removals.

[Ulysse95]

Man, I really like your reasoning and deck construction. On one side I'm sad that you dont (need to) run Sandwurm Convergence since my deck is known as the #Würmmachine in our LGS. But on the other hand you play the reason I bought into this deck in the first place, Living plane.
I like how you replaced Sandwurm Convergence with another card that can win on it's own, curse of misfortunes.
My only worry with you list is, how do you deal with shamans? I never get to resolve a rector trigger versus shaman decks without running 6+ removals.

Yeah, it broke my heart to remove Sandwurm convergence too ;)

Shaman is the mean reason why I had 2 nodes... But yeah, it wasn't enough I think
DRS is a plague!!
Often I have to sac a rector on his turn (block, leap or tower), then play a new one on my turn to get through (leap helps a lot to get two of them)
Otherwhile, I have to either read my opponnent to see if he would notice he can exile it to stiffle the ability (works to with needle. On the tournament, an opponnent played a 3 counters chalice and an other one at 1. Either was he thinking about deed or lingering, at a moment I had to go forward because of the board state which was dangerous to me but two cards in hand : a CCM 1 (Miiri's guile was it?) and finks. Chalice 1 is so often played that I don't think he would have missed it. But Finks... who play Finks nowaday? :D And yeah..it went through ^^

Edit:

And here come a polyvalent DRS hater :D
And it helps a lot to cabal after it
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BV--Porh9PA/maxresdefault.jpg

[Arianrhod]

I, for one, look forward to Jurassic Fit.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I, for one, look forward to Jurassic Fit.

It's a shame Allosaurus Rider is not an Elf Dinosaur Warrior

[square_two]

I think that the mainboard hate you mention are too slow in the end. So what's the point.
In fact I was against TES on my first round. I was really lucky I think...

I also missed out on mentioning Collective Brutality in my mainboard combo hate question. In general I've come to really like having a broader removal/interaction level.

I was having an absurd win percentage against ANT while I was playing Nyx Fit online - do you know your general matchup % against storm or other combo? I'm just having a hard time envisioning you not simply folding to it nearly every game 1 unless you've got some very nice luck. I hate having to rely entirely on games 2 and 3 cause at that point, a bad mulligan will just lose you the match. Dovescape has never failed me, just takes a single Rector trigger. What scares me about your list is that there is no mainboard rector target to win against those types of decks (although I see the testing of Ghostly Prison at least to cover some emptied warrens). Also no Deed is scary :laugh:

Dovescape is nuts imo, if you already have an Evo Leap out then it is unstoppable.

But I do love Living Plane. Fondly recall Living Plane -> Doomwake Giant back when I was trying out more Starfield-oriented lists with Eidolon of Blossoms.

Thanks for the report!

[Dalton!]

It's a shame Allosaurus Rider is not an Elf Dinosaur Warrior

Some older cards were in talks to be erated. So maybe.

If we get some tribal synergy Jurassic Fit could be something. That would be cool as hell. Some of them look playable and wen do not even know everyone Dino.

That spyglass is super. T1: chalice, T2: spyglass in fetchland:eek:

[Brael]

Some older cards were in talks to be erated. So maybe.

If we get some tribal synergy Jurassic Fit could be something. That would be cool as hell. Some of them look playable and wen do not even know everyone Dino.

That spyglass is super. T1: chalice, T2: spyglass in fetchland:eek:

Spyglass isn't that great, there's already Pithing Needle for a mana less.

[Dalton!]

Spyglass isn't that great, there's already Pithing Needle for a mana less.

Spyglass lets you look at their Hand before you name a card. Plays well with Cabal Therapy and lets you know if a fetchland would be a good target

[Brael]

Spyglass lets you look at their Hand before you name a card. Plays well with Cabal Therapy and lets you know if a fetchland would be a good target

Trying to cut off a fetchland is rarely a winning strategy. The point of these types of cards isn't to play a gotcha, it's to answer something you would ordinarily have trouble answering. For example, if you name a fetchland all that happens is they Brainstorm them away, get some other lands instead, and still play their Jace, the Mind Sculptor that you can't answer, and needed the Spyglass to answer.

This goes double for Nic Fit where we give our opponents lands to fix any sort of manascrew shutting off a fetchland might cause.

If you're relying on this to see their hand in order to Therapy, that means you aren't casting the Therapy until at least turn 3 which is too late to do anything against the degenerate decks. On top of that, you shouldn't be relying on looking at their hand to make a Therapy name anyways. The same logic applies to Pithing Needles. You name the cards that are problematic, not the cards you know they have.

[Navsi]

It's also slightly more resistant to our own Deeds which is a nice benefit. It's better than Needle against fair matchups but worse in unfair matchups.

[Ulysse95]

I also missed out on mentioning Collective Brutality in my mainboard combo hate question. In general I've come to really like having a broader removal/interaction level.

I was having an absurd win percentage against ANT while I was playing Nyx Fit online - do you know your general matchup % against storm or other combo? I'm just having a hard time envisioning you not simply folding to it nearly every game 1 unless you've got some very nice luck. I hate having to rely entirely on games 2 and 3 cause at that point, a bad mulligan will just lose you the match. Dovescape has never failed me, just takes a single Rector trigger. What scares me about your list is that there is no mainboard rector target to win against those types of decks (although I see the testing of Ghostly Prison at least to cover some emptied warrens). Also no Deed is scary :laugh:

Dovescape is nuts imo, if you already have an Evo Leap out then it is unstoppable.

But I do love Living Plane. Fondly recall Living Plane -> Doomwake Giant back when I was trying out more Starfield-oriented lists with Eidolon of Blossoms.

Thanks for the report!

I tried Dovescape but didn't liked it. Perhaps it's just me. Good for you if it's great in your shell. Perhaps I could give it an other try someday...
Yes, I agreed that early answers are a must. But couldn't fit everything in it fotr now...
You always have at least one bad match up. So combo are mine, but I'm prepared for games 2 and 3. Even if cabal bye wins sometimes.

Yeah, as I got a lot of small permanents, deed seemed not as valuable than before. So I try without them for a while ;)

[Echelon]

So... I just saw Haven Raptor from Ixalan. It's a 4 mana, 4/5 with Tough, which says "Whenever x is dealt damage, draw a card" and this made me think of... Pestilence.

Keep the board clean & draw more and more cards to keep in control.

What do you guys think? Viable tech or The Danger Of Cool Things? I'm leaning toward the latter, but I did want to throw this out there.

[kombatkiwi]

So... I just saw Haven Raptor from Ixalan. It's a 4 mana, 4/5 with Tough, which says "Whenever x is dealt damage, draw a card" and this made me think of... Pestilence.

Keep the board clean & draw more and more cards to keep in control.

What do you guys think? Viable tech or The Danger Of Cool Things? I'm leaning toward the latter, but I did want to throw this out there.

The fact that it's a 4 mana 4/5 is already pretty decent.
If you're playing Crop Rotation it also combos with Arena or Desert.
An issue with the card is that the Tough ability might not trigger enough to be worth it without playing some kind of way to ping it yourself, and Pestilence seems like a very awkward card to play in this deck (functionally it has a lot of overlap with Deed, so you don't want to play many copies of Deed + Pestilence because it will be too many sweepers, but you don't want to rely on Pestilence as a sweeper because it only kills creatures and can't be activated by any basic land except Swamp).
Maybe it can work if you play more ways to get a larger payoff from Pestilence (like Hornet's Nest or something, which isn't even that good because Pestilence will only let you have 1 token at a time. I'm not sure that there is anything else, Fungusaur and Sprouting Phytohydra aren't exactly impressive)

[Kobra_D]

It's a shame Allosaurus Rider is not an Elf Dinosaur Warrior

I hope they don't errata this, flavor wise it makes no sense. Allosaurus rider is the rider not the allosaurus. It's not like ponyback brigade is creature type pony goblin. Just saying, flavor matters.

[Dalton!]

I think that Raptor is a card you have to play as a 4 off. so he will be damaged. Always thought it was a 4/3.

Ulvenwald Tracker comes to my mind

Edit: Domri Rade as well.

[bruizar]

Trying to cut off a fetchland is rarely a winning strategy. The point of these types of cards isn't to play a gotcha, it's to answer something you would ordinarily have trouble answering. For example, if you name a fetchland all that happens is they Brainstorm them away, get some other lands instead, and still play their Jace, the Mind Sculptor that you can't answer, and needed the Spyglass to answer.


Brainstorm gets significantly worse when fetchlands are disabled. If they don't have different types of fetchlands in their hand / top 3, they are essentially locked out of the game. Also, looking at someone's hand isn't just a benefit for the Needle effect. It helps you guide your strategy for the game and gives you emergent knowledge.

Ancient Tomb - Chalice 1 and Ancient Tomb - Spyglass fetch will soon hit legacy tournaments near you

[Echelon]

Maybe we'll get some more worthwhile creatures with Tough.

I guess we'll need to... tough... it out for the time being.

[AtticusBlaqk]

Ixalan Spoiler for another T-Rex. Some User of MTGS seems to have figured out what he does.

Regisaur Alpha :3::r::g:

Dinosaurs you control have haste

When Regisaur alpha enters the battlefield
Create a 3/3 Green Dinosaur creature token
with trample

Do you have a link to this spoiler?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JackaBo]

Maybe we'll get some more worthwhile creatures with Tough.

I guess we'll need to... tough... it out for the time being.

Sign me up for PestilenceFit. Or perhabs withering whisps with snow basics.

[Echelon]

Sugen me up for PestilenceFit. Or perhabs withering whisps with snow basics.

Pestilence Park Fit? PP Fit for short.

[Dalton!]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/regisaur-alpha/

Right now i can not find we're in mtgs i read it, but that would be the cars

[Brael]

Brainstorm gets significantly worse when fetchlands are disabled. If they don't have different types of fetchlands in their hand / top 3, they are essentially locked out of the game. Also, looking at someone's hand isn't just a benefit for the Needle effect. It helps you guide your strategy for the game and gives you emergent knowledge.

Ancient Tomb - Chalice 1 and Ancient Tomb - Spyglass fetch will soon hit legacy tournaments near you

It might be Legacy playable because it dodges Chalice, that doesn't mean it's a good card in Nic Fit though.

[zyren]

So... I just saw Haven Raptor from Ixalan. It's a 4 mana, 4/5 with Tough, which says "Whenever x is dealt damage, draw a card" and this made me think of... Pestilence.

Keep the board clean & draw more and more cards to keep in control.

What do you guys think? Viable tech or The Danger Of Cool Things? I'm leaning toward the latter, but I did want to throw this out there.

fiery confluence could work well. same cost as pestilence and has immediate impact. 3 cards for 4 mana and a small creature board wipe isnt bad at all.

[Bobmans]

So... I just saw Haven Raptor from Ixalan. It's a 4 mana, 4/5 with Tough, which says "Whenever x is dealt damage, draw a card" and this made me think of... Pestilence.

Keep the board clean & draw more and more cards to keep in control.

What do you guys think? Viable tech or The Danger Of Cool Things? I'm leaning toward the latter, but I did want to throw this out there.

Seems good when your ahead, seems bad when your behind.




In regards of the fair lists. Stormbreath Dragon must be a powerful card right now.

Finally!

[Dalton!]

Olivia Voldaren could ping him and you could use Punishing Fire.

Fiery confluence seems like a fun Card, too.

[bruizar]

It might be Legacy playable because it dodges Chalice, that doesn't mean it's a good card in Nic Fit though.

true, I doubt its good enough for nic fit as the list is already super tight

[Arianrhod]

Okay, so here's what I've been up to for the last while.

I would specifically like Echelon and Brael's eyes on this because world of mathcraft. See if there's any ways to make the core better.

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Walking Ballista
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Palace Jailer
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Liliana, the Last Hope

1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah

sb::
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Lingering Souls
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Thoughtseize
1 flex

This is rough. I'll say it again, this is rough.

However, the Traverse shell does finally seem to have legs.

Ballista is a missing link, I think. I tried Ballista as a 1-of when I was testing Leshrac's list and it absolutely blew me away -- I never even used Cloudpost mana on it. It was just amazing, even for 2 or 3. That got me wondering about Traverse -- after all, we'd only ever thought of Traverse in context of Baleful Strix before, and Strix doesn't like to die to turn on delirium, because it's holding down the fort in play as people are unwilling to swing into it. Ballista has no such qualms and will gladly turn on delirium for us while generating value. Furthermore, it's an extra midgame kill spell for irritating Deathrites which attempt to impair our delirium generation. Strix can't touch DRS no matter what stage of game you're in.

Part of the problem with Brainstorm and Ponder in Nic Fit has always been that we've been unwilling to find slots for them. With Traverse, it's guaranteed to find a land (unlikely Ponder/BS which are only 'likely to'). This means that instead of the typical 22-23 land slots Nic Fit typically has to run, we can use Traverse to skimp down to 20 lands, which makes Traverse essentially "pay for itself," if you will. I'll note here that I was somewhat skeptical about this, but it's actually been working out just fine. 20 lands + 4 vets + 4 Traverse actually runs super smoothly -- it almost never floods /or/ screws.

Ishkanah is the only other card I want to talk about briefly. Ishkanah is a hell of a payoff. It doesn't seem like she should be, but dear god is she ridiculous, especially if you assemble Karakas with her. She represents a very sticky, very hard to deal with threat which is also a very, very swift clock. Has absolutely surprised me.

So, here's the "step back" thought process...kind of on Nic Fit in general atm, not just this core.

I think that we're barking up the wrong tree trying to replace Top. I don't think we CAN replace Top...not even by going into blue and adopting the cantrip core. You'd see this played out before with Miracles -- even decks with 10 cantrips would eventually succumb to Top over a long game. We're not going to be able to fix that.

Instead, we need to take a step out of the box and look at the problem caused by the lack of Top. What did Top do for us? It helped tie together our threats and mana, pushing expensive late-game bombs away while digging us to removal and interaction to make sure we got to them later on.

That being the case, we need to now accept the fact that we are vulnerable to drawing too many lands, or too few. The solution to this, I feel, is to focus on a system of mana sinks coupled with a density of valuable topdecks. Ballista, Ishkanah, Tracker, and Volraths are all good manasinks, and they're all tutorable by Traverse. Liliana Last Hope is something I brought up a couple months ago as something that was worth exploring, and I think she shines here -- she's a round-about manasink by recurring previously spent threats (especially Ballistae, which is gross). Postboard you also gain Lingering Souls as another mana sink. The deck is also very threat-dense while still being low to the ground -- not quite as low to the ground as one of Brael's SE piles, but still pretty low.

I definitely want some more eyes on this, playing with the shell, tinkering with it, seeing what all we can do with it and where we can push it...this is just an early attempt on my end, and I would like to get something competitive up and running again by Eternal Weekend for obvious reasons.

The core, as I see it, is thus:

20 lands

4 Vet
4 Ballista
2 Eternal Witness
1 Ishkanah

4 Therapy
4 Zenith
4 Traverse

4+ instant-speed removal spells

3 Deed

That leaves 10 slots completely open to be toyed with. Obviously, you want some more creatures to get extra value out of Traverse...but in general, the field's pretty open. You could run any color to splash, or straight GB. You could incorporate a combo (Sam and I looked at Archangel of Thune when working on this as a possibility). This core flows really, really smoothly -- it's a pleasure to goldfish and it's a lot of fun to play in actual events, as well. The challenge is figuring out the best configuration of cards to add to this core to make a competitively viable deck with a strong plan.

I /personally/ don't think that you can leave it just GB because you need to have some kind of reasonable combo matchup, and being able to tutor for hatebears is pretty grand. But, I dunno. It might be there are some sideboard options vs combo that I'm overlooking. I also like that the deck is pretty good at covering its own bases -- it looks weak to Chalice because of the extra 1-drops, but then you consider that it's ALSO running a bunch of cards that are good vs Chalice decks and ways to get rid of any Chalices that do happen.

I dunno. I think there's something here. It's definitely not as "easy to find" as Scapewish or Sneak was, though. Any reasonable help is appreciated.

[Echelon]

...List & rationale...

You might want to add another (fetch)land to your manabase. As it is now, the manabase is unstable w/ only 13 initial green sources, 10 white and 10 black. This might be a good list to implement the 21 land, 10 fetch manabase (since it'll help w/ Delirium) of 10 fetch, 2 of each basic & 1 of each dual and 2 utility lands (putting you @14/14/14). It'll take some getting used to, but you'll get there. Just prioritize fetching basics over duals.

As for the core, Qasali Pridemage seems like a good fit. It can deal with some pesky stuff and help turn on Delirium.

Another angle you could take is Karador, Ghost Chieftain. You intend to get stuff in your GY and you can now Traverse for it. It forms a nice loop w/ Ballista & Pridemage and would turn Shriekmaw into a neat SB card. You could also use it to loop an Eternal Witness once you've Traversed for Phyrexian Tower.

[kombatkiwi]

Ballista is probably better than Pestilence for that new 2GG 4/5 Tough creature...
Maybe if you're splashing white you can play Vault of the Archangel as a utility land. You aim to have enough mana to eventually use it (unlike most legacy decks) and it's very powerful with Ishkanah and Ballista.
I'm not sure that Kambal is better than Teeg even with Traverse and I still think you want some sort of Rec Sage / QPM effect.
Why do you think 2 Witness is essential instead of just 1?

[Echelon]

This just hit me...

When you're running so many Ballista and plan to use a 6-drop, why not include a...

Mephidross Vampire!

It + Ballista w/ >=2 counters = only you have creatures.

It + Ballista w/ >=2 counters + Tough Raptor = draw 4 extra cards per turn, every turn.

It + Ballista w/ >=3 counters + Winding Constrictor = you win.

[TTX]

Winding Constrictor seems pretty good with Meren in addition to all the others. Why no Verdurous Gearhulk? G Teeg? Mephridross sounds so good. I remember the old days of standard lol. Spike Feeder and Thune Angel seems like an easy synergy inclusion. I like that he Delirium tilt, but DRS can take you offline so fast. I'd play a single Recurring Nightmare in this one btw. I like the green cantrip analysis. Keep it going, all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JackaBo]

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Walking Ballista
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Palace Jailer
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Liliana, the Last Hope

1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah


I like this deck!
But isn't the maindeck a little weak to combo decks. Versus fair you got 4 Ballista plus Jailer and 4 Traverse to fetch them, 5 spot removal, 2 Lilianas and 4 sweepers. That's a ton!
Verus combo you got only 4 Therapies and Kambal plus traverse to fetch it. Fetching a Kambal with traverse is maybe possible on turn..4? That's too late versus many combo decks.
At least a Teeg can come down on turn 3 via GSZ. I actually like kambal, but maybe it's too slow for what it's there for. Perhabs some removals could be Collective brutality, to be more flexible? The minus effect have a little synergy with Liliana and Ballista.
Also, why do you run Push instead of path/swords. The deck seems rather invested in white (WW in Suntitan and Jailer) and you already got plenty of ways to deal with weenies. Anglers and cheated-in-fattys you have no real answer for.

[Arianrhod]

You might want to add another (fetch)land to your manabase. As it is now, the manabase is unstable w/ only 13 initial green sources, 10 white and 10 black. This might be a good list to implement the 21 land, 10 fetch manabase (since it'll help w/ Delirium) of 10 fetch, 2 of each basic & 1 of each dual and 2 utility lands (putting you @14/14/14). It'll take some getting used to, but you'll get there. Just prioritize fetching basics over duals.

As for the core, Qasali Pridemage seems like a good fit. It can deal with some pesky stuff and help turn on Delirium.

Another angle you could take is Karador, Ghost Chieftain. You intend to get stuff in your GY and you can now Traverse for it. It forms a nice loop w/ Ballista & Pridemage and would turn Shriekmaw into a neat SB card. You could also use it to make loop an Eternal Witness once you've Traversed for Phyrexian Tower.

Qasali is probably a good idea. I like Karador, but am always skeptical of actually turning him on. How much does he typically cost, in your experience?

Lands are a no go, sadly. At most I could see adding another fetch as a 21st, but again, it's run so smoothly as it is that I'm scared to mess with it. You can't get away with less than 8 basics IMO, because now you have Traverse + Vet sucking them out. I get every single one of those basics in pretty short order in this deck, and if I didn't have that many, I would be losing value for sure.


Ballista is probably better than Pestilence for that new 2GG 4/5 Tough creature...
Maybe if you're splashing white you can play Vault of the Archangel as a utility land. You aim to have enough mana to eventually use it (unlike most legacy decks) and it's very powerful with Ishkanah and Ballista.
I'm not sure that Kambal is better than Teeg even with Traverse and I still think you want some sort of Rec Sage / QPM effect.
Why do you think 2 Witness is essential instead of just 1?

Vault also plays well with Lingering Souls postboard. That would be another option for a 21st land, I think. Vault isn't better than Two Towers or Karakas, for sure.

I've been of the opinion that the 2nd E.Wit has been core for a while now, honestly. It just helps us grind so well to have a 2nd copy of that card -- it's just good vs everything, and lets us use our graveyard as a second tutorable zone, which helps lessen the blow of Top a bit.

I'll address Teeg below.


Winding Constrictor seems pretty good with Meren in addition to all the others. Why no Verdurous Gearhulk? G Teeg? Mephridross sounds so good. I remember the old days of standard lol. Spike Feeder and Thune Angel seems like an easy synergy inclusion. I like that he Delirium tilt, but DRS can take you offline so fast. I'd play a single Recurring Nightmare in this one btw. I like the green cantrip analysis. Keep it going, all.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I considered Snek and then thought better of my choices. The problem with Snek is that he doesn't do anything unless you're already doing something else. He doesn't do anything by himself and generates no value. He's just a 2/3 for BG. If you happen to have a Ballista with him, that's kind of nice...but that's the only synergy in the whole deck for him. Meren is fine, but Snek + Meren seems very magical christmas to me.

I've tried VHulk and it was underwhelming...here. I do have another, very different list where VHulk is exceptional...it involves True-Name Nemesis.

The issue I had with Spike-Thune is that it eats up a surprising amount of space. With those two in the deck you're actually incentivized to want Snek at that point, and then you also want to consider like Abzan Charm, and you need probably 2 of each (Spike / Thune), and it just ended up looking like a mess. I want there to be something there, but I don't see how to make it work just yet. It's nice that having a Ballista in play now adds infinite damage to the combo, so you aren't just like making infinite life and then waiting to get locked out somehow.

DRS has been a relative non-issue. Yes, it's annoying. But you have a zillion removal spells to get rid of the parasite, you can name it on Therapy if you're really worried about it, and you can also just accept that Traverse is going to be Lay of the Land for a while and play a normal game of magic until the mid-late game, when you crack a Deed and delirium is super on (and DRS is super dead), and then you have 2-3 extra copies of whatever you want in your deck. Nothing says delirium needs to be turbo-online -- I think that's one of the core issues that we've always had when thinking about the card. We assume it needs to be online on turn 2 or turn 3 to function, and that isn't true at all. It's fine whenever it comes online.


I like this deck!
But isn't the maindeck a little weak to combo decks. Versus fair you got 4 Ballista plus Jailer and 4 Traverse to fetch them, 5 spot removal, 2 Lilianas and 4 sweepers. That's a ton!
Verus combo you got only 4 Therapies and Kambal plus traverse to fetch it. Fetching a Kambal with traverse is maybe possible on turn..4? That's too late versus many combo decks.
At least a Teeg can come down on turn 3 via GSZ. I actually like kambal, but maybe it's too slow for what it's there for. Perhabs some removals could be Collective brutality, to be more flexible? The minus effect have a little synergy with Liliana and Ballista.
Also, why do you run Push instead of path/swords. The deck seems rather invested in white (WW in Suntitan and Jailer) and you already got plenty of ways to deal with weenies. Anglers and cheated-in-fattys you have no real answer for.

So, some of this is because I'm the person who built the deck. I always, always bias heavily towards fair decks: I assume that I will play against more fair decks most tournaments than I will combo decks, and I want to win game 1 against fair decks whenever remotely possible, because vs fair, the games can grind on for quite a while in Nic Fit in general. Winning game 1 puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the opponent postboard, which is a nice hole that I really like forcing people into. I also don't think it's possible for Nic Fit to really have a 'good' matchup vs combo game 1 anyway, so I don't want to weaken my deck overall -- I don't want to end up like a 50% vs the field deck, let's put it that way. I would rather crush fair decks and then have sideboard to shore up combo, with a couple extra grinding tools to sub in when shaving Vets/Therapies in fair matchups.

Theoretically, Kambal can be tutored+played on curve fairly easy: you fetch, therapy or traverse for basic, ballista for 0-1: tada, you're online. Tutor him on turn 2 and slam him on turn 3.

Basically, here's my take on Teeg: I played this deck in an event with Teeg in the maindeck. He was never relevant. Again. Still. This is considering that I played vs Aluren twice (which is more than I've played against Aluren in my life previously, but that's besides the point). I have fallen into this maindeck Teeg trap more times than I care to count, and he is never, ever relevant for me. Kambal is always relevant. He's slower than Teeg, and only tutorable by half as many tutors, yes. I agree. He's also not as much of a "lock" as Teeg is. But he's good vs almost anything. He sucks vs tribal decks, I guess -- but Delver? Awesome. Control? He forces them to remove him asap, and if they have to dig for the removal, they're going to fucking feel it. Midrange? He makes Punishing Fire unhappy, that's for sure...especially if you start recurring him.

Teeg is better vs combo, yes. But he's so much worse against literally everything that isn't combo that I just cannot justify him as a maindeck card. It's possible he should be in the flex spot in the sideboard, sure...that I could accept.

Brutality is generally underwhelming unless you're Reanimator, I think. The concept is right, but I don't think the card is.

Cheated-in fatties are probably going to kill me regardless because fuck reanimator and show and tell -- Angler I'm not super worried about because I'll just block it forever. That said, you probably aren't wrong that they should be StP...at least a couple of them. The nice thing about Push is that it's online a lot easier without wrecking your manabase -- the white is generally designed to be online in later turns unless you're vs combo, in which case you can fetch whatever you want. But if you're vs Delver, there's a very real cost to having to fetch a Savannah to StP their guy instead of a basic Swamp for Push. It's hard to say what's correct, honestly.

---------

These are all good thoughts *except Mephidross Vampire* -- keep them coming!

[Echelon]

Qasali is probably a good idea. I like Karador, but am always skeptical of actually turning him on. How much does he typically cost, in your experience?

---------

These are all good thoughts *except Mephidross Vampire* -- keep them coming!

5 or 6 mana, typically. Dryad Arbor is useful here.

And Vampire was an awesome idea, dammit! :laugh:

Indulge in the cool stuff!

As for the Gearhulk, how can an 8/8 trample be underwhelming? Games ended too fast or something?

[square_two]

I was prodded to record some Nyx Fit matches, I'll try to upload some this weekend. Have 1 more match left in my league, so far 2-2 beating Ruby Storm and Czech Pile, losing to TES and UR Delver.

How's this for a game 3 on-the-play opener against combo?

Verdant Catacombs, Cavern of Souls, Veteran Explorer, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Collective Brutality, Lost Legacy

LL by turn 3, with FOUR discard spells preceding it :cool:

[Arianrhod]

5 or 6 mana, typically. Dryad Arbor is useful here.

And Vampire was an awesome idea, dammit! :laugh:

Indulge in the cool stuff!

As for the Gearhulk, how can an 8/8 trample be underwhelming? Games ended too fast or something?

It was just never necessary. Ishkanah and a 6-drop is really all the top-end you need. I can't really adequately express how insane Ishkanah was. I'd rather use the slot to run something else to avoid losing before the grind takes over (he became Thragtusk).

[Brael]

I dunno. I think there's something here. It's definitely not as "easy to find" as Scapewish or Sneak was, though. Any reasonable help is appreciated.

I've been messing with a semi Delirium build in Modern. Like you, I hit on Walking Ballista as a strong enabler. I've considered it off and on in Legacy but in a Ranger of Eos shell rather than in a Delirium shell.

I'm a little skeptical on Sun Titan, I don't like that it can't profitably return a Walking Ballista. But, I do agree that Ishkanah is pretty good. I hadn't even considered the Karakas abuse aspect of it.

I'm still a little skeptical of Delirium due to DRS being able to eat everything, but the idea seems worth exploring. GSZ and Therapy take sorceries out of our GY though which makes it harder. I think this would be a case for fewer GSZ's.

I'll think a bit and post a list in a little while after I get some more work done. I do want to throw out there though, that I think you're using the wrong Liliana. This is a case where we care about our GY, so LotV's ability to let you choose what goes to the GY to power up your other cards is highly relevant.

[Arianrhod]

I've been messing with a semi Delirium build in Modern. Like you, I hit on Walking Ballista as a strong enabler. I've considered it off and on in Legacy but in a Ranger of Eos shell rather than in a Delirium shell.

I'm a little skeptical on Sun Titan, I don't like that it can't profitably return a Walking Ballista. But, I do agree that Ishkanah is pretty good. I hadn't even considered the Karakas abuse aspect of it.

I'm still a little skeptical of Delirium due to DRS being able to eat everything, but the idea seems worth exploring. GSZ and Therapy take sorceries out of our GY though which makes it harder. I think this would be a case for fewer GSZ's.

I'll think a bit and post a list in a little while after I get some more work done. I do want to throw out there though, that I think you're using the wrong Liliana. This is a case where we care about our GY, so LotV's ability to let you choose what goes to the GY to power up your other cards is highly relevant.

It's possible. I will note that I don't own and cannot currently afford LotVs, so if we go down that road, I can't really follow atm. I do quite like Last Hope, though -- she's good at picking off Baleful Strixes, Snapcasters, and Cliques, and being able to get extra regrowth abilities on Witnesses or dead/discarded bombs is really nice...especially since she doesn't target with her -2, which makes her hard to disrupt.

It's possible Ranger of Eos should be in this shell -- that's a pretty strong option. I've also been itching to mess with Trinket Mage, since Mage coming with a Ballista stapled to it seems nuts. But at the same time, we lost Top, which was like the golden reason to run Trinket Mage...so...meh.

Sun Titan + Deed is still as good as it ever was, except now we can tutor the Titan reasonable. Same with E.Wit or Tracker, or Nissa, etc. Titan is especially good with Tracker since he can bring back lands to generate clues if you already have a Tracker out -- which has historically been one of the problems with Tracker in non-blue lists.

I've been hitting Delirium (even against DRS decks) with this shell pretty consistently, so I don't know that you need to cut Zeniths. I rather like that once you hit midgame, you have 8 tutors + the bombs themselves to topdeck when you end up in that situation. Also, nothing says we need to flash Therapy back depending on the game state and opponent. Or even that you need to use Sorcery as a card type for it -- land, creature, artifact, instant happens pretty commonly too.

I dunno. I just want to call attention to this and get some more ideas flowing on it. Right now, I don't feel like there's a strong Scape/Sneak/Pod/etc version that's function and competitive with the range of tier 1 decks currently, and I don't like that. I'm not willing to say that Nic Fit is dead without Top -- there's too many cards legal and too many different deckbuilding philosophies to try for it not to evolve somehow. We've survived everything thrown at us to this point, we can survive this too.

[Brael]

Sigh, post got eaten. So I'm going to be brief on the retype.

Delirium requires a variety of cards, this goes double with DRS. Using Modern as a guide, and keeping in mind that they don't have DRS to deal with, here's the numbers I would suggest for each card type that needs to find it's way to the GY:
Lands - 9
Creatures - 4 or 5
Instant - 7
Sorcery - 8
Artifact - 3
Enchantment - 1
Planeswalker - 4
Tribal - 1

So lets go through those, piece by piece:
Lands - Fetchlands are obvious, but remember Crop Rotation will also put cards into the GY if land slots are tight.
Creatures - Walking Ballista pulls double duty, but we also have Shriekmaw and Qasali Pridemage to round out the self sacrifice. Remember that creatures are actually hard to get into the GY in the early turns because StP exiles.
Instant - We have an excess of instants, especially if Crop Rotation is used for the ability to fill two card types (in addition to it's other benefits). Likely a bottleneck on what we choose to include/exclude
Sorcery - I'm assuming Traverse in these numbers, but also not counting Therapy or GSZ. I think Traverse has to fully replace GSZ here and then we need 7ish additional sorceries. Nights Whisper can count for a couple, as can Pulse/Vindicate. This slot is probably going to require some creativity though.
Artifact - Ballista covers it all if necessary, but I've been having good results in Modern with a Ballista/Nihil Spellbomb/Engineered Explosives package alongside Glissa. Perhaps worth considering. Verdouous Gearhulk might make a solid 6 drop too.
Enchantment - Might be able to slide on this. Out of the SB I like Seal of Primordium.
Planeswalker - Liliana of the Veil is excellent here. +1 to build Delirium types and attack the opponents hand, -2 to gain CA, reasonable ultimate, good type to see die. Also noteworthy is Garruk Relentless since he dies often.
Tribal - Might slide on this too, nothing good is coming to mind right away.

If we assume 22 lands, and hold to that skeleton with remaining slots being threats that gives us
Lands - 22
Creatures - 16
Instant - 7
Sorcery - 8
Artifact - 3
Planeswalker - 4

16 minus 3 Ballista, a Pridemage, and 4 Vets leaves 8 big threats. Which makes me think this is a build that's going to want to go tall with resilient cards. Maybe Thune/Spike Feeder combo.

Edit: Not going to rewrite that, lets pretend I didn't forget Pernicious Deed is an easy to sacrifice enchantment though.

[zyren]

Kalonian hydra may be good in here too in addition to gearhulk. It's not immediate but can cause some silliness with ballistas.

[crowe_1]

If the plan is to move towards Ballistas and Sun Titan and lean more on white, might it be reasonable to move towards Eladamri's Call instead of GSZ? It's an extra mana the-turn-of and reduces the surprise factor, but gets every creature in the deck which would allow for more bullets and little synergies like Mephidross (not him specifically necessarily but just as an example). GSZ is a sacred cow in the deck, but desperate times and whatnot...

[Navsi]

If you want to play Ballista or other mana sinks, have you considered Recruiter of the Guard? It puts a lot fewer deckbuilding restrictions on us compared to Traverse, lets us tutor nongreen cards earlier (barring nut draws for delirium) and is a 2-for-1 with synergy with Therapy.

[Brael]

Is recruiter a good enough body? That's why I like Ranger of Eos.

[Brael]

As promised earlier, here's a first pass at a list, largely based off the logic I laid out a couple posts up:

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Ash Barrens
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

Spells 19
1 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
2 Crop Rotation
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vindicate

Planeswalker 3
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Enchantment 3
3 Pernicious Deed

Creatures 14
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Walking Ballista
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Spike Feeder
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Sun Titan
1 Verduous Gearhulk

[Arianrhod]

As promised earlier, here's a first pass at a list, largely based off the logic I laid out a couple posts up:

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Ash Barrens
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

Spells 19
1 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
2 Crop Rotation
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vindicate

Planeswalker 3
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Enchantment 3
3 Pernicious Deed

Creatures 14
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Walking Ballista
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Spike Feeder
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Sun Titan
1 Verduous Gearhulk

Will post thoughts later once I digest a bit, but VHulk is a 5-drop, not 6.

[Nilsfit]

what do you think about The Scarab God in nic fit?

[itrytostorm]

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16595&d=302622&f=LE

Any thoughts on this sex pile?

Living Plane + Curse of Death's Hold might be the sexiest thing I've seen.

[Brael]

what do you think about The Scarab God in nic fit?

It does way too little for a 5 drop, and forces you into blue. Also, it forces you into running a bunch of zombies.

[Navsi]

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16595&d=302622&f=LE

Any thoughts on this sex pile?

Living Plane + Curse of Death's Hold might be the sexiest thing I've seen.

Yeah it's been discussed a couple times - Nyx Fit is a build that's currently under development. Common consensus is that Living Plane is a cool card but too underwhelming on its own, when Dovescape locks similarly hard without being as useless on its own.

[pettdan]

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16595&d=302622&f=LE

Any thoughts on this sex pile?

Living Plane + Curse of Death's Hold might be the sexiest thing I've seen.

Tournament report:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1021374&viewfull=1#post1021374

[CaptainTwiddle]

I've been tinkering with a Delirium/Traverse the Ulvenwald build and have come to this:

CREATURES
4 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Brain Maggot
1 Grim Flayer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Palace Jailer
1 Ishkanah, Graf Widow
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
SPELLS
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Fatal Push
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
LAND
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windswept Heath

The main differentiation in my list is Oath of Nissa. These were originally Green Sun's, but I just wasn't running enough green creatures to make them worthwhile. GSZ also makes hitting delirium a bit harder, as resolving it means you're shuffling it back in rather than adding an instant to your yard. Oath of Nissa helps add a type for delirium and is kind of a midpoint between GSZ and Traverse. I've also had the clause of being able to cast planeswalkers using any color of mana be relevant against Blood Moon decks, allowing Liliana to come online, which gives you an outlet to kill Veteran Explorer and get any basics you may need to solve your mana problems. Oath digging for planeswalkers is pretty nice too. I've been running a Garruk Relentless in the board, and it's great to have increased access to him.

The other cards that may be questionable are Brain Maggot and Grim Flayer. Maggot is primarily there to be a speed bump and add another enchantment to the deck to enable delirium. Flayer is a potential GSZ target and the library/graveyard manipulation he provides can be pretty powerful; you can dump things into the yard for recursion with Liliana or Sun Titan and you can set up the top of your library, which comes in handy when Palace Jailer has made you the Monarch (drawing Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay heading into the opponent's turn feels good).

I'm fairly new to Nic Fit as an archetype, but I like the versatility of it. Sun Titan has long been a pet card and its interaction with Liliana, the Last Hope is everything I could ask for.

[Echelon]

I'd turn Maggot into DRS/ScOoze and Flayer into QPM.

I'm not sure if cutting GSZ is the right way to go. It's there so you cam run fewer creatures, but consistently have the right ones. If you mean to cut those you might have to drop the entire creature skeleton idea.

[Navsi]

Not running Zenith means you can not reasonably expect to be getting explorer triggers before turn three with any form of reliability, which means you can't reasonably afford to be running cards that cost 5-6 mana and not expect them to rot in your hand a reasonable percentage of the time. You want at least eight sources of turn one-two mana acceleration or the deck just won't consistently do anything. Alternatively massively cut down on expensive cards, but at that point you might as well be playing DRS over Explorer and some other flavor of BGx midrange instead.

[CaptainTwiddle]

I'd turn Maggot into DRS/ScOoze and Flayer into QPM.

I'm not sure if cutting GSZ is the right way to go. It's there so you cam run fewer creatures, but consistently have the right ones. If you mean to cut those you might have to drop the entire creature skeleton idea.


Not running Zenith means you can not reasonably expect to be getting explorer triggers before turn three with any form of reliability, which means you can't reasonably afford to be running cards that cost 5-6 mana and not expect them to rot in your hand a reasonable percentage of the time. You want at least eight sources of turn one-two mana acceleration or the deck just won't consistently do anything. Alternatively massively cut down on expensive cards, but at that point you might as well be playing DRS over Explorer and some other flavor of BGx midrange instead.

After playing a few more matches, I was considering swapping the Maggot for a DRS as well. I'm not sure if the concerns about the lack of GSZ making Explorer less consistent and therefore making the high end of the deck unreachable are really accurate. GSZ lets you tap out on turn 2 to get an Explorer into play. In that scenario, I could have cast Oath of Nissa on turn 1 to find an Explorer and then turn two I can get the Explorer into play and still have a mana open (possibly to cast Therapy and then sac the Explorer, opening me up for 2 additional mana right away). Also, the high end of my build isn't that high. I'm only playing 3 cards at CMC 5-6. I acknowledge that GSZ is more consistent than Oath for getting your 1-drop by turn 2, but I think Oath trades for some different upsides. Against Sneak and Show, for example, I really like Oath, as you can get Palace Jailer into your hand to stave off the opponent's SNT. All this being said, I'll probably try to squeeze in one more GSZ. Basically, between GSZ, Traverse, and Oath, I think 8 total feels ideal. Maybe I'll trim an Oath for another GSZ.

[Navsi]

After playing a few more matches, I was considering swapping the Maggot for a DRS as well. I'm not sure if the concerns about the lack of GSZ making Explorer less consistent and therefore making the high end of the deck unreachable are really accurate. GSZ lets you tap out on turn 2 to get an Explorer into play. In that scenario, I could have cast Oath of Nissa on turn 1 to find an Explorer and then turn two I can get the Explorer into play and still have a mana open (possibly to cast Therapy and then sac the Explorer, opening me up for 2 additional mana right away). Also, the high end of my build isn't that high. I'm only playing 3 cards at CMC 5-6. I acknowledge that GSZ is more consistent than Oath for getting your 1-drop by turn 2, but I think Oath trades for some different upsides. Against Sneak and Show, for example, I really like Oath, as you can get Palace Jailer into your hand to stave off the opponent's SNT. All this being said, I'll probably try to squeeze in one more GSZ. Basically, between GSZ, Traverse, and Oath, I think 8 total feels ideal. Maybe I'll trim an Oath for another GSZ.

If you didn't draw an Explorer in your opening hand, Oath of Nissa has a 21% chance of finding you an Explorer. That's just not good enough - keeping a hand which needs Explorer to function (which is not unlikely) on the basis of Oath finding you a copy is a losing proposition. You can't base mulligan decisions on Oath finding you an Explorer - you can base mulligan decisions on Zenith finding you Explorer, which makes an enormous amount of difference.

[Brael]

Not running Zenith means you can not reasonably expect to be getting explorer triggers before turn three with any form of reliability, which means you can't reasonably afford to be running cards that cost 5-6 mana and not expect them to rot in your hand a reasonable percentage of the time. You want at least eight sources of turn one-two mana acceleration or the deck just won't consistently do anything. Alternatively massively cut down on expensive cards, but at that point you might as well be playing DRS over Explorer and some other flavor of BGx midrange instead.

Running Zenith practically guarantees you won't be getting any sorceries into the GY though.

[CaptainTwiddle]

If you didn't draw an Explorer in your opening hand, Oath of Nissa has a 21% chance of finding you an Explorer. That's just not good enough - keeping a hand which needs Explorer to function (which is not unlikely) on the basis of Oath finding you a copy is a losing proposition. You can't base mulligan decisions on Oath finding you an Explorer - you can base mulligan decisions on Zenith finding you Explorer, which makes an enormous amount of difference.

This does seem valid. GSZ also helps in matchups against Chalice of the Void decks, so I'll definitely be looking to up my count. Thank you for the insight.

[Navsi]

Running Zenith practically guarantees you won't be getting any sorceries into the GY though.

Unless it gets countered, but yes. Collective Brutality also helps.

Personally I suspect the best Delirium build is a BUG one which only cares about card types in the yard in the lategame for casting Emrakul, which means we can afford to be slower to put card types in the graveyard. I am of the opinion that trying to make Traverse work (bar something super weird like Zenith getting banned) is something of a trap for us. Making Traverse work in an Explorer/Therapy shell is very hard, because Explorer is only a good card if we can play more than 4 earlygame copies (and so Traverse doesn't help with that) and Therapy, the other half of our core engine, also doesn't feed Traverse.

[fireiced]

I dunno. I think there's something here. It's definitely not as "easy to find" as Scapewish or Sneak was, though. Any reasonable help is appreciated.

I tried the exact list with the following changes
-1 Kambal -1 Eternal Witness -1 Palace Jailer +1 Scavenging Ooze +1 Siege Rhino +1 Tireless Tracker

Thoughts
On MTGO the deck ran quite smoothly. I like it. I like the Ishkanah Karakas interaction :cool:

On paper. Would like to point out that me paper meta has a whole boatload of gravehate. Minimally 4 gravehate in sb.
- G1s, fantastic with the deck doing what it does. I like how the 4 Traverse makes it very hard for me to flood or screw on lands, being able to grab either Tower feels really great.
- Sideboarded games, this is where the wheels of delirium came off. Leyline of the Void punishes both the Explorer core and the delirium side of the deck, drawing Traverse felt like drawing a basic land :o Other common gravehate such as Surgical Extractions also came down to spoil the delirium fun times.

Overall I love the deck and its concept, but I feel it is quite bad if your meta is like mine where graveyard decks are everywhere. (I got like 2 dredges, 2 reanimators and couple of LFTL decks who come play on a consistent basis)

[rubblekill]

I'm going to try Nyx Fit for fun. Have you guys played with Nissa, Voice of Zendikar already? It seems decent: puts blockers on the board, synergy with Leap and low cmc.
My main concern with this deck is the lack of means of CA. On paper it seems like the deck will go on top deck mode fast and lose from that point, I hope I'm wrong.

[Navsi]

I'm going to try Nyx Fit for fun. Have you guys played with Nissa, Voice of Zendikar already? It seems decent: puts blockers on the board, synergy with Leap and low cmc.
My main concern with this deck is the lack of means of CA. On paper it seems like the deck will go on top deck mode fast and lose from that point, I hope I'm wrong.

If you resolve a Rector trigger (especially with Leap) you probably win the game on the spot (or at least get a major advantage) so card advantage is a bit less relevant since Rector provides so much of it.

Lingering Souls is probably just better than Nissa VOZ. Better both defensively and offensively with flying, quicker source of tokens, synergy with collective brutality and dovescape.

[rubblekill]

If you resolve a Rector trigger (especially with Leap) you probably win the game on the spot (or at least get a major advantage) so card advantage is a bit less relevant since Rector provides so much of it.

Lingering Souls is probably just better than Nissa VOZ. Better both defensively and offensively with flying, quicker source of tokens, synergy with collective brutality and dovescape.

I meant in addition to the playset of souls, but that's fair enough.

[Navsi]

I meant in addition to the playset of souls, but that's fair enough.

I don't think you can afford to play more than four copies of a card which is quite as dead as Souls/Nissa is against a fast deck, especially since you're already spending some slots on big stupid enchantments. I'm only running three copies of Lingering Souls as is.

[Echelon]

Random thought here - Travers might be a nice fit for Nyx Fit, since it allows you to find Rectors (and since Rector costs 4 it's less important to have Delirium live in the first few turns).

[Navsi]

Random thought here - Travers might be a nice fit for Nyx Fit, since it allows you to find Rectors (and since Rector costs 4 it's less important to have Delirium live in the first few turns).

The problem is finding slots. The deck is already spending several slots on big enchantments, interaction, and rectors / explorers / sac outlets. Also, Rector exiles itself from the yard which makes it even harder to get Delirium online (though you usually don't care by the time you got a rector trigger). The only slots that could reasonably be cut are the Leap/Souls slots, but they have other uses - Leap is both a way of finding Rector and a sacrifice outlet for him, whereas Traverse, while it can do either if you have delirium, sometimes does neither (no delirium) and never does both.

[JackaBo]

I meant in addition to the playset of souls, but that's fair enough.

I run Garruk. He is sick in this list.
1) He kills DRS. 2) He makes tokens. 3) He's a sac-outlet that finds rector. He is sick!

[rubblekill]

I run Garruk. He is sick in this list.
1) He kills DRS. 2) He makes tokens. 3) He's a sac-outlet that finds rector. He is sick!

He is awesome indeed, but so far I'm having problems dealing with the opposing board before turn 4. The last list that was posted had basically zero instant removal, except nodes which is (an enchantment and) not a legacy card in my opinion.
The deck is VERY fun to play and has potential, but i feel it needs a consistent way to stabilise before entering the end game.
Splendor seems like the best thing to cheat in play, but can someone explain why all the other new curses were discarded from the main deck?
I don't understand living plane, is it here to beat non creature decks?
So far a singleton intent has been great in my GB deck, I'll play at least one in nyx fit. Sacrificing the granny with intent was the old school thing to do right?

[Brael]

Unless it gets countered, but yes. Collective Brutality also helps.

Personally I suspect the best Delirium build is a BUG one which only cares about card types in the yard in the lategame for casting Emrakul, which means we can afford to be slower to put card types in the graveyard. I am of the opinion that trying to make Traverse work (bar something super weird like Zenith getting banned) is something of a trap for us. Making Traverse work in an Explorer/Therapy shell is very hard, because Explorer is only a good card if we can play more than 4 earlygame copies (and so Traverse doesn't help with that) and Therapy, the other half of our core engine, also doesn't feed Traverse.

Aside from BUG being the best colors (something I'm not really sure of, I think red might be stronger), I agree with the Traverse problems.

[Echelon]

I'm pretty sure we can come up with a set of numbers and SE it from there.

Anyone up for this? I'm happy to guide the project along.

[square_two]

He is awesome indeed, but so far I'm having problems dealing with the opposing board before turn 4. The last list that was posted had basically zero instant removal, except nodes which is (an enchantment and) not a legacy card in my opinion.
The deck is VERY fun to play and has potential, but i feel it needs a consistent way to stabilise before entering the end game.
Splendor seems like the best thing to cheat in play, but can someone explain why all the other new curses were discarded from the main deck?
I don't understand living plane, is it here to beat non creature decks?
So far a singleton intent has been great in my GB deck, I'll play at least one in nyx fit. Sacrificing the granny with intent was the old school thing to do right?

Early game is no problem once you are at something like 3 Swords 3 Collective Brutality (or mix and match with Abrupt Decay). Also 2-3 Pernicious Deed. Another idea is Fatal Push as a possible way to kill Rector, but so far I've been taking the harder control route and enjoy having Swords to deal with Marit Lage and larger fatties such as Gurmag. Opp gaining life is zero issue.

Intent is fine addition, so far I haven't bothered to try it...Evo Leap is just so good on its own.

Living Plane used to be a possible hard lock for the deck against stuff like Miracles or other grindy game. Living Plane -> Curse of Death's Hold/Doomwake = opp never having access to mana again. Possible silly stuff like, suddenly lands can attack and kill a Jace, opp's fetches are now a turn slower, Deed = Armageddon, etc. To me, Plane has always felt sub-par on its own which was the reason I've left it alone for a while. You want stuff that wins the game with one rector trigger, and I've seen Dovescape do it way more often than Plane ever did. Dovescape also does the work that Sterling Grove used to do in protecting your enchantments.

Evo Leap in play? Leap Rector and grab Dovescape. Gives you plenty of time to loop and find another (now uncounterable) Rector to then grab Death's Hold.

What I plan to run in my next league. (Still have one game to go in current one which I've been recording and intend to post online for those interested)

1 Cavern of Souls
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Collective Brutality
3 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
3 Lingering Souls
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Green Sun's Zenith

side:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter

Yes 3 Brutality in the main. Card has been so good, and I'm fine experimenting with 0 Decay now that I'll be back at 3 Deed. Could be a mistake but Brutality continues to help improve game 1 against combo. Will try going without Starfield since the cases where I grab Starfield seem extremely narrow and it doesn't affect the board.

[Navsi]

He is awesome indeed, but so far I'm having problems dealing with the opposing board before turn 4. The last list that was posted had basically zero instant removal, except nodes which is (an enchantment and) not a legacy card in my opinion.
The deck is VERY fun to play and has potential, but i feel it needs a consistent way to stabilise before entering the end game.
Splendor seems like the best thing to cheat in play, but can someone explain why all the other new curses were discarded from the main deck?
I don't understand living plane, is it here to beat non creature decks?
So far a singleton intent has been great in my GB deck, I'll play at least one in nyx fit. Sacrificing the granny with intent was the old school thing to do right?

For removal, I run 2 Swords / 3 Brutality / 2 Decay / 3 Deed in the maindeck, + Cruel Reality and Curse of Death's Hold. Sideboard has an additional 2 Toxic Deluge, 2 To The Slaughter.

As far as cheat in packages, I run Splendor, Dovescape, Curse of Death's Hold, and Cruel Reality. Possible Starfield as additional option.

- Splendor beats creature based decks that aren't going wide with small guys.
- Dovescape beats anything spell based.
- Curse of Death's Hold beats Empty the Warrens / Young Pyromancer, and combos with both of the above.
- Cruel Reality is a clock so we can actually win the game, and answers JTMS.
- Starfield is redundancy in case something gets removed / countered / discarded.

Living Plane is there as a finisher / hardlock when combined with Curse of Death's Hold. The problem is it does nothing on its own really - that's why I dropped it from my list. I guess if you aren't playing dovescape you need some way of having a rector trigger actually matter against spell based combo, but it seems pretty suspect. I'd rather have Dovescape or Nether Void.

Intent is okay but I never liked it. If you want to find and sac a rector I'd rather have Leap most of the time.

[rubblekill]

Thanks Navsi and square, I'll take note of what you have said and move from there.
When I was talking about the lack of meaningful removal I was referring to the list posted on mtgtop 8 played by Ulysses 95 if I'm not mistaken.
Living plane has seemed awkward the times I had it in hand, it seems both of you guys replaced it with cruel reality. I'll try it. Thanks for yor help, I'm a newbie Nyx fit player :D

[grokh]

Carnage Tyrant confirmed by Wizards today :

http://media.wizards.com/2017/xln/en_KvaL61GJr1.png

Let's build !

[Echelon]

That might just be the top end GSZ-able threat non-Junk lists have been waiting for!

[Arianrhod]

That might just be the top end GSZ-able threat non-Junk lists have been waiting for!

Not sure it's better than Bellower unless the Dino tribal ends up mattering.

[sdematt]

That might just be the top end GSZ-able threat non-Junk lists have been waiting for!

Still might throw him in Junk.

[Ganfar]

Carnage Tyrant confirmed by Wizards today :

http://media.wizards.com/2017/xln/en_KvaL61GJr1.png

Let's build !

It was spolide before and talked about it in the thred.

I think this is really nice card for nic-fit

[grokh]

It was spolide before and talked about it in the thred.

I think this is really nice card for nic-fit


Yep i knew, i was just saying it's now 100% real !

[rubblekill]

Talking about removal in Nyx Fit, have you ever tried innocent blood? Ramps with explorer, acts as an additional rector sacrificer, deals potentially with TNN, gurmags and griselbrands.

[Arianrhod]

Talking about removal in Nyx Fit, have you ever tried innocent blood? Ramps with explorer, acts as an additional rector sacrificer, deals potentially with TNN, gurmags and griselbrands.

This seems like a solid suggestion.

I tried Nyx Fit once a couple months ago and disliked it due to its propensity for drawing its absurd lockpieces instead of cards that can interact. I'm unsure, but suspect the deck will crumble under the SE principles. It needs its lockpieces to actually function, but at the same time, it results in a lot of do-nothing hands. You could go hypermana so that if you draw Sandwurm or Dovescape or w/e you can cast it easily, but then you'll burn out of cards (which is already a problem Nic Fit is suffering from as a whole).

I also think that cutting the Nyx itself from Nyx Fit is likely incorrect. Nyx + Deed is a hilariously strong interaction -- same as Sun Titan + Deed, except it does it for free and has extra text. Nyx is also much more castable than many other lockpieces (Sandwurm or Splendor come to mind).

I dunno, just my pseudo-outsider's point of view.

[rubblekill]

This seems like a solid suggestion.

I tried Nyx Fit once a couple months ago and disliked it due to its propensity for drawing its absurd lockpieces instead of cards that can interact.

In my brief experience with the deck this is what I'm thinking. I often feel "unprotected" against what the opponent is doing, because he is doing it faster than I'm assembling my pieces. This may be the version that needs brutality the most for this exact reason (the sinergy with LS is the gravy on top). 4 CT don't feel enough discard in my opinion, but I might very well be wrong.

Innocent blood is nice because is T1 interaction AND can help against unfair decks like reanimator or chimp and show. It acts both as a removal spell and as a card to use to get the rector trigger.

[square_two]

This seems like a solid suggestion.

I tried Nyx Fit once a couple months ago and disliked it due to its propensity for drawing its absurd lockpieces instead of cards that can interact. I'm unsure, but suspect the deck will crumble under the SE principles. It needs its lockpieces to actually function, but at the same time, it results in a lot of do-nothing hands. You could go hypermana so that if you draw Sandwurm or Dovescape or w/e you can cast it easily, but then you'll burn out of cards (which is already a problem Nic Fit is suffering from as a whole).

I also think that cutting the Nyx itself from Nyx Fit is likely incorrect. Nyx + Deed is a hilariously strong interaction -- same as Sun Titan + Deed, except it does it for free and has extra text. Nyx is also much more castable than many other lockpieces (Sandwurm or Splendor come to mind).

I dunno, just my pseudo-outsider's point of view.

Indeed, can't recall why I haven't tried Innocent Blood yet. Will have to give it a go. -Marit lage protection +Emrakul protection (/shrug).

Do you remember the configuration of lockpieces in that list? I think Sandwurm + Cruel plus the others was a bit much.

It isn't as bad as you'd think, so far it has felt similar to Sneak Fit days when you have Emrakul or a Titan stuck in hand. Dovescape = 6, Cruel Reality = 7, Splendor = 8. Those are the only things in the list above 5 cmc, and even getting one of them stuck in hand means that you still have the others to Rector and hold down the fort until you get the required mana online. I used to run Cast Out in place of the Cruel Reality, leaving only 2 cards over 5. That spot definitely needs to be something to handle Jace though.

Including Starfield does further reduce this issue, since you can safely pitch stuff to Brutality and then get it back easily.

[rubblekill]

Indeed, can't recall why I haven't tried Innocent Blood yet. Will have to give it a go. -Marit lage protection +Emrakul protection (/shrug).

Do you remember the configuration of lockpieces in that list? I think Sandwurm + Cruel plus the others was a bit much.

It isn't as bad as you'd think, so far it has felt similar to Sneak Fit days when you have Emrakul or a Titan stuck in hand. Dovescape = 6, Cruel Reality = 7, Splendor = 8. Those are the only things in the list above 5 cmc, and even getting one of them stuck in hand means that you still have the others to Rector and hold down the fort until you get the required mana online. I used to run Cast Out in place of the Cruel Reality, leaving only 2 cards over 5. That spot definitely needs to be something to handle Jace though.

Including Starfield does further reduce this issue, since you can safely pitch stuff to Brutality and then get it back easily.

Cruel reality to me seems a sb card that gives protection against big cheaty guys like emrakul or planeswalkers like jace. In all the other match ups the other bombs seem enough.

[rubblekill]

Sorry for the double post, but this deck is intriguing me and I have been playing seriously with it today for the first time.

Why don't we go for the max consistency route? (22 lands + 1 arbor), 4 Zeniths, 4 Leaps, 4 Souls, 4 Vets, 4 CT, 4 Rectors and a singleton witness (and 0 sigarda/finks as other creatures, because they disrupt the leap chain)? Beside this main core, one could play the removal suite he prefers the most.

A couple first impressions about the enchantment suite: you guys are the experts, but starfield seems a maindeck card for the reasons Arian enumerated earlier. The sinergy with brutality makes the high cmc bombs in hand do something before being recurred by starfield.
After having played online all day, this is what I'm liking at the moment. I'm new with this deck so I might very well be making deckbuilding mistakes, you guys are more experienced than me with this deck, but what do you think?

Maindeck
-Starfield of Nyx: value enchantment that's good for the reasons we all know. Recurs deeds every turn, puts cast outs into play after we have cycled them in the early game, adds redundancy to the deck and is good against discard and counters.
Speaking of cast out, it seems you guys have ditched it and play more decays, plows, brutalities. Is the cast out interaction just cute in practice? Tell me about it. As Square mentioned, cast out deals with Jace and gurmag and it's nice to have in the maindeck in my opinion.

-Overwhelming Splendor (this is usually the go to enchantment against creature decks, right?)
-Curse of Death's Hold (combo with splendor, it sometimes is good on its own)
-Curse of Misfortune: both the above enchantments are curses, so this seems a value enchantment to chain curses. At 5 mana it can be casted naturally and can start the chain without a rector if need be. After sideboard Cruel Reality is another curse to chain. Basically the card is a ramp spell that acts like a bridge between 5 mana and 7-8 mana (Splendor and Cruel Reality).

Sideboard
-Dovescape
-Cruel Reality

The reason why I feel like those 2 belong in the sideboard is because against the most popular decks ( grixis delver and pile) all we need is a bunch of enchantments to deal with creatures and those 2 don't quite do that immediatly.
Dovescape can come in against control decks and acts like a pseudo sterling grove that negates their noncreature spells. It can come in against combo even though additional discard spells and hate bears are the main way to survive until the first rector trigger.
Cruel reality comes against all the unfair decks like reanimator, chimp and show and against planeswalker decks. Maybe against lands as well?




Does anything of this pile of letters make sense? Navsi, Square, Arian?

[Arianrhod]

Sorry for the double post, but this deck is intriguing me and I have been playing seriously with it today for the first time.

Why don't we go for the max consistency route? (22 lands + 1 arbor), 4 Zeniths, 4 Leaps, 4 Souls, 4 Vets, 4 CT, 4 Rectors and a singleton witness (and 0 sigarda/finks as other creatures, because they disrupt the leap chain)? Beside this main core, one could play the removal suite he prefers the most.

A couple first impressions about the enchantment suite: you guys are the experts, but starfield seems a maindeck card for the reasons Arian enumerated earlier. The sinergy with brutality makes the high cmc bombs in hand do something before being recurred by starfield.
After having played online all day, this is what I'm liking at the moment. I'm new with this deck so I might very well be making deckbuilding mistakes, you guys are more experienced than me with this deck, but what do you think?

Maindeck
-Starfield of Nyx: value enchantment that's good for the reasons we all know. Recurs deeds every turn, puts cast outs into play after we have cycled them in the early game, adds redundancy to the deck and is good against discard and counters.
Speaking of cast out, it seems you guys have ditched it and play more decays, plows, brutalities. Is the cast out interaction just cute in practice? Tell me about it. As Square mentioned, cast out deals with Jace and gurmag and it's nice to have in the maindeck in my opinion.

-Overwhelming Splendor (this is usually the go to enchantment against creature decks, right?)
-Curse of Death's Hold (combo with splendor, it sometimes is good on its own)
-Curse of Misfortune: both the above enchantments are curses, so this seems a value enchantment to chain curses. At 5 mana it can be casted naturally and can start the chain without a rector if need be. After sideboard Cruel Reality is another curse to chain. Basically the card is a ramp spell that acts like a bridge between 5 mana and 7-8 mana (Splendor and Cruel Reality).

Sideboard
-Dovescape
-Cruel Reality

The reason why I feel like those 2 belong in the sideboard is because against the most popular decks ( grixis delver and pile) all we need is a bunch of enchantments to deal with creatures and those 2 don't quite do that immediatly.
Dovescape can come in against control decks and acts like a pseudo sterling grove that negates their noncreature spells. It can come in against combo even though additional discard spells and hate bears are the main way to survive until the first rector trigger.
Cruel reality comes against all the unfair decks like reanimator, chimp and show and against planeswalker decks. Maybe against lands as well?




Does anything of this pile of letters make sense? Navsi, Square, Arian?

Again, I'm not the most knowledgeable person on this particular subject, but that all makes sense to me. I'm not sure Curse of Misfortunes is necessary (Overwhelming Splendor isn't a curse unless I'm missing something), though.

I do very much agree with Cast Outs probably being very important (especially with Starfield) -- possibly up to a 4-of, just to increase consistency. They help you draw into lands, gas, or disruption, and they help keep you alive either by themselves , vs Show and Tell, or via Starfield.

But I'm also a sucker for trying to build from scratch without Top, and I'm down for basically anything that draws a card cheaply or tutors for a reasonable cost at this point.

[rubblekill]

Again, I'm not the most knowledgeable person on this particular subject, but that all makes sense to me. I'm not sure Curse of Misfortunes is necessary (Overwhelming Splendor isn't a curse unless I'm missing something), though.

I do very much agree with Cast Outs probably being very important (especially with Starfield) -- possibly up to a 4-of, just to increase consistency. They help you draw into lands, gas, or disruption, and they help keep you alive either by themselves , vs Show and Tell, or via Starfield.

But I'm also a sucker for trying to build from scratch without Top, and I'm down for basically anything that draws a card cheaply or tutors for a reasonable cost at this point.

It is a curse! Magic online doesn't make mistakes (most of the time :D)! I agree on the cast out bit.

I don't know if this deck is the moral successor to sneak fit, but today I beat miracle and pile players. Might mean nothing, but it's at least something.
Leap is a hell of a card and mitigates a lot the loss of top in my opinion.

[square_two]

Very glad to see you enjoyed it and testing with it. I plan to get some more work on it done as soon as I get home tonight.

I think the 4 Leaps was intuitively felt to be too much. You -do- have good chances to naturally draw into Rector (it is a 4-of after all). Multiple Leaps in hand really does stink.

As far as Sigarda, you do not want to be royally screwed as soon as your opponent Surgical Extracts your Rector (gawd that sounds painful) in games 2 or 3. Sigarda is a powerful plan B on a separate axis and the opponent won't be able to board in both graveyard, enchantment, and edict/wrath type hate. She continues to be solid against Jace, although more Cast Outs could be just as helpful. Removing E Witness could be viable, especially if you go up in C Brutality (since she does great work at buying back Therapy/Thoughtseize/Brutality against combo). If you get rid of E Witness AND Sigarda, then no way I'm playing full 4 GSZ. Late game I do not want to draw a Veteran that costs 1 more and then shuffles back into the deck.

If anything, I feel that Starfield is a sideboard card. Who's going to be destroying big-ass enchantments in game 1? Regardless, it has the same problem that Curse of Misfortune has, in my mind: they both do nothing the turn they hit the board. I'm going to continue to have Dovescape in my main because of how often it has let me sneak out game 1 wins against storm and other combo, and how beautifully it works with Leap. Maybe I've just had good luck with it? Dunno, but even against stuff like Moon Stompy, it's been good to help avoid getting burned to death by Chandra/Fiery Confluence.

Cast Out vs other removal = I mean, 4 cmc is a LOT to pay for single target removal. That's the only negative...I'd be open to trying like, -Cruel Reality, -Eternal Witness to fit in an extra or two. That or an extra Souls...Lingering Souls is certainly fine as a 4-of here.

Edit @rubblekill - when I first started doing Nyx Fit online, Rector trigger would not allow Curses to be attached to players. It's one bug I'm very glad they fixed after I submitted a ticket for it. Hence earlier builds with Doomwake Giant.

[rubblekill]

Very glad to see you enjoyed it and testing with it. I plan to get some more work on it done as soon as I get home tonight.

I think the 4 Leaps was intuitively felt to be too much. You -do- have good chances to naturally draw into Rector (it is a 4-of after all). Multiple Leaps in hand really does stink.

As far as Sigarda, you do not want to be royally screwed as soon as your opponent Surgical Extracts your Rector (gawd that sounds painful) in games 2 or 3. Sigarda is a powerful plan B on a separate axis and the opponent won't be able to board in both graveyard, enchantment, and edict/wrath type hate. She continues to be solid against Jace, although more Cast Outs could be just as helpful. Removing E Witness could be viable, especially if you go up in C Brutality (since she does great work at buying back Therapy/Thoughtseize/Brutality against combo). If you get rid of E Witness AND Sigarda, then no way I'm playing full 4 GSZ. Late game I do not want to draw a Veteran that costs 1 more and then shuffles back into the deck.

If anything, I feel that Starfield is a sideboard card. Who's going to be destroying big-ass enchantments in game 1? Regardless, it has the same problem that Curse of Misfortune has, in my mind: they both do nothing the turn they hit the board. I'm going to continue to have Dovescape in my main because of how often it has let me sneak out game 1 wins against storm and other combo, and how beautifully it works with Leap. Maybe I've just had good luck with it? Dunno, but even against stuff like Moon Stompy, it's been good to help avoid getting burned to death by Chandra/Fiery Confluence.

Cast Out vs other removal = I mean, 4 cmc is a LOT to pay for single target removal. That's the only negative...I'd be open to trying like, -Cruel Reality, -Eternal Witness to fit in an extra or two. That or an extra Souls...Lingering Souls is certainly fine as a 4-of here.

If you think that starfield is a sideboard card, then it's intuitive that cast out becomes mediocre at best.
Starfield is here (I think? I'm the noob..) not only for the enchantment hate, but to buy back enchantments that were discarded or countered in the early game.

Today the games I dominated against the top decks were the game where I had the leap engine going. Even in the sneak days 4 sneaks were considered a necessity, even though the 2nd sneak in hand was always sad to have. This is what makes me want to maximize the chances to get the engine going. Speaking of engine, additional sacrificer like innocent blood make the ramping and the cheating very consistent.
I think all this deck needs is consistency, to streamline its plan and execute it.
Speaking of Sigarda, what you say makes sense. But if we want to have a plan B against surgical, why don't we play her in the sideboard? This way we have a more streamlined leap engine in G1 when they don't have gy hate.

[Arianrhod]

Very glad to see you enjoyed it and testing with it. I plan to get some more work on it done as soon as I get home tonight.

I think the 4 Leaps was intuitively felt to be too much. You -do- have good chances to naturally draw into Rector (it is a 4-of after all). Multiple Leaps in hand really does stink.

As far as Sigarda, you do not want to be royally screwed as soon as your opponent Surgical Extracts your Rector (gawd that sounds painful) in games 2 or 3. Sigarda is a powerful plan B on a separate axis and the opponent won't be able to board in both graveyard, enchantment, and edict/wrath type hate. She continues to be solid against Jace, although more Cast Outs could be just as helpful. Removing E Witness could be viable, especially if you go up in C Brutality (since she does great work at buying back Therapy/Thoughtseize/Brutality against combo). If you get rid of E Witness AND Sigarda, then no way I'm playing full 4 GSZ. Late game I do not want to draw a Veteran that costs 1 more and then shuffles back into the deck.

If anything, I feel that Starfield is a sideboard card. Who's going to be destroying big-ass enchantments in game 1? Regardless, it has the same problem that Curse of Misfortune has, in my mind: they both do nothing the turn they hit the board. I'm going to continue to have Dovescape in my main because of how often it has let me sneak out game 1 wins against storm and other combo, and how beautifully it works with Leap. Maybe I've just had good luck with it? Dunno, but even against stuff like Moon Stompy, it's been good to help avoid getting burned to death by Chandra/Fiery Confluence.

Cast Out vs other removal = I mean, 4 cmc is a LOT to pay for single target removal. That's the only negative...I'd be open to trying like, -Cruel Reality, -Eternal Witness to fit in an extra or two. That or an extra Souls...Lingering Souls is certainly fine as a 4-of here.

Edit @rubblekill - when I first started doing Nyx Fit online, Rector trigger would not allow Curses to be attached to players. It's one bug I'm very glad they fixed after I submitted a ticket for it. Hence earlier builds with Doomwake Giant.

Yeah, I missed the curse line on Splendor for some reason.

If you're not interested in Starfield, you could consider Ground Seal as a way to protect Rector from DRS or Surgical. You do need to be worried about Deed at that point, but if you can reliably fire off Splendor + Death's Hold...Deed probably doesn't matter. I dunno, just a thought.

-----------

E: Upon a little more thinking, it looks like there are two different roads you can go down: Brutality + Starfield (plus Entomb, maybe?), or Innocent Bloods etc.

[rubblekill]

Yeah, I missed the curse line on Splendor for some reason.

If you're not interested in Starfield, you could consider Ground Seal as a way to protect Rector from DRS or Surgical. You do need to be worried about Deed at that point, but if you can reliably fire off Splendor + Death's Hold...Deed probably doesn't matter. I dunno, just a thought.

-----------

E: Upon a little more thinking, it looks like there are two different roads you can go down: Brutality + Starfield (plus Entomb, maybe?), or Innocent Bloods etc.

Do brutality and innocent blood exclude each other? I don't think so, right?

[Arianrhod]

Do brutality and innocent blood exclude each other? I don't think so, right?

Probably not, but I see them as moving in different direction; there are complementary packages with each, I think, that aren't necessarily the same.

I could also be crazy.

[Navsi]

Yeah, I missed the curse line on Splendor for some reason.

If you're not interested in Starfield, you could consider Ground Seal as a way to protect Rector from DRS or Surgical. You do need to be worried about Deed at that point, but if you can reliably fire off Splendor + Death's Hold...Deed probably doesn't matter. I dunno, just a thought.

-----------

E: Upon a little more thinking, it looks like there are two different roads you can go down: Brutality + Starfield (plus Entomb, maybe?), or Innocent Bloods etc.

I have played Ground Seal in the sideboard to protect rectors (and as Snap/DRS/Reanimator hate) to reasonably good results.

When I tested it Innocent Blood was terrible - might have just been chance, but not dealing with Marit Lage and being uncastable through Chalice are downsides I don't like to both have on the same removal spell.

The problem with cutting Cruel Reality is that JTMS is not an uncommon card to see in the opponent's list. Cruel Reality is also a way of actually ending the game with a rector trigger which is a nice benefit to have. If your opponent makes Jace and you don't have CR, there is nothing you can Rector for that deals with it other than by trading 1-for-1 and not presenting any persistent board presence - Cast Out not only gives your opponent until you resolve another recotr trigger before actually threatening them, but also means anything like Council's Judgment also gets their Jace back.

Sigarda is in the deck because the main strength of Zenith is that it finds Vet early and is a haymaker late. Cutting sigarda means it does nothing lategame which is really awkward. If you were doing that I would be tempted to swap Zeniths for Recruiter of the Guard or something similar. Having a backup plan is nice, but IMO that's not the main reason.

You 100% want either Dovescape or Nether Void in the main. Otherwise you are completely conceding game 1 to spell based combo and control, which is not acceptable.

[Arianrhod]

I have played Ground Seal in the sideboard to protect rectors (and as Snap/DRS/Reanimator hate) to reasonably good results.

When I tested it Innocent Blood was terrible - might have just been chance, but not dealing with Marit Lage and being uncastable through Chalice are downsides I don't like to both have on the same removal spell.

The problem with cutting Cruel Reality is that JTMS is not an uncommon card to see in the opponent's list. Cruel Reality is also a way of actually ending the game with a rector trigger which is a nice benefit to have. If your opponent makes Jace and you don't have CR, there is nothing you can Rector for that deals with it other than by trading 1-for-1 and not presenting any persistent board presence - Cast Out not only gives your opponent until you resolve another recotr trigger before actually threatening them, but also means anything like Council's Judgment also gets their Jace back.

Sigarda is in the deck because the main strength of Zenith is that it finds Vet early and is a haymaker late. Cutting sigarda means it does nothing lategame which is really awkward. If you were doing that I would be tempted to swap Zeniths for Recruiter of the Guard or something similar. Having a backup plan is nice, but IMO that's not the main reason.

You 100% want either Dovescape or Nether Void in the main. Otherwise you are completely conceding game 1 to spell based combo and control, which is not acceptable.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dovescape is also a way to win the game via Zenith, correct? You just Zenith for a million and get a pile of birds to beat them over the head with?

[square_two]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dovescape is also a way to win the game via Zenith, correct? You just Zenith for a million and get a pile of birds to beat them over the head with?

It's one way. Keep in mind that Lingering Souls under Dovescape makes 6 birds :)

[Echelon]

Sigarda is a powerful plan B on a separate axis and the opponent won't be able to board in both graveyard, enchantment, and edict/wrath type hate.

On a small side note - Sigarda cares very little about edict effects :smile:. It's wrath or broke.

[rubblekill]

What's the thought process behind the decision to play dovescape over nether void? Is the latter too soft of a lock compared to the first one in your experience?
4 cmc without WWW in its mana cost seems a very good upside for nether void.
And come on, who doesn't want to play nether void? I know I do.

[JackaBo]

What's the thought process behind the decision to play dovescape over nether void? Is the latter too soft of a lock compared to the first one in your experience?
4 cmc without WWW in its mana cost seems a very good upside for nether void.
And come on, who doesn't want to play nether void? I know I do.

I've played Nether void just because it's an awesome archaic beautiful card. Unfortunatly it hasn't been good enough IMO. Dovescape is disruption AND a wincon given that most spellbased decks run a bunch of low CMC spells. Nether void in my experience creates a stalemate where neither player can do anything useful until we draw a wincon or they draw an out. Void is also dangerous if theres a unfavorable boardstate, like a delver. At least dovescape gives you access to a bunch of blockers.
Finally dovescape nullifies almost all of the hate-cards out there.
I was reluctant to replace Nether Void with a ugly looking dovescape, but in game-play it has been the right decision.

About the discussion above: I'm pretty sure that Sandwurm convergence is better than Cruel Reality. I like the plan of further streamlining the deck. I've been trying to diversify it instead (cutting Evo leap for more GSZ targets) and that just went bad.

[Arianrhod]

Something I would like to point out: we might be in a position to benefit from the planeswalker rules change. I tried Captain Sisay as a card advantage engine a couple years ago and it was 'ok'....but now that Sisay can tutor for planeswalkers, they MIGHT be worth another look. Not sure, just a thought I wanted to toss out.

[Echelon]

It's a 2 toughness 4 mana creature that needs to survive a turn before it can start generating CA

[Brael]

Something I would like to point out: we might be in a position to benefit from the planeswalker rules change. I tried Captain Sisay as a card advantage engine a couple years ago and it was 'ok'....but now that Sisay can tutor for planeswalkers, they MIGHT be worth another look. Not sure, just a thought I wanted to toss out.

Think simpler. Nissa, Vastwood Seer just got a lot better now that we can run her alongside Vital Force.

Liliana has also improved.

[Arianrhod]

It's a 2 toughness 4 mana creature that needs to survive a turn before it can start generating CA

Master of the Wild Hunt has performed very well for me in the past and the same thing can be said for him. Just something to keep in mind.

@Brael: I've actually been high on Vastwood Seer for a little while even before this change, and I think she gains a ton from it for sure. Liliana matters less to us as opposed to other decks, but regardless, it's definitely relevant to note. Same with JVP and JTMS...and Gideon Ally of Zen + Gideon of the Trials.

[sdematt]

Something I would like to point out: we might be in a position to benefit from the planeswalker rules change. I tried Captain Sisay as a card advantage engine a couple years ago and it was 'ok'....but now that Sisay can tutor for planeswalkers, they MIGHT be worth another look. Not sure, just a thought I wanted to toss out.

What change?

[pettdan]

What change?

This:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31951-Planeswalkers-are-Legendary-now&p=1022113#post1022113

[Arianrhod]

What change?

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ixalan-mechanics

tl;dr: planeswalkers are now legendary permanents, and you can have multiple Jaces, Lilianas, Gideons, w.e, in play at the same time as long as they don't have the same name exactly (for example, Liliana of the Veil and Liliana, the Last Hope can now be in play at the same time under the same player's control). Activated Gideons can be bounced by Karakas because they are then legendary and creatures. Planeswalkers can be tutored by Sisay. Etc.

[Navsi]

Interesting points for us:

Lilianas: Last Hope, Heretical Healer, Veil

Nissas: Vastwood Seer, Vital Force, Steward of Elements

Jaces: Mind Sculptor, Vryn's Prodigy

Thalia's Lancers, Captain Sisay and Reki, the History of Kamigawa (unlikely though)

[Brael]

Master of the Wild Hunt has performed very well for me in the past and the same thing can be said for him. Just something to keep in mind.

@Brael: I've actually been high on Vastwood Seer for a little while even before this change, and I think she gains a ton from it for sure. Liliana matters less to us as opposed to other decks, but regardless, it's definitely relevant to note. Same with JVP and JTMS...and Gideon Ally of Zen + Gideon of the Trials.

Garruk also gains. Relentless is the only one we've ever considered in the past, but some of the others might be able to make the cut in a combat walkers build now. I think it's worth revisiting the idea of a combat walker+SFM build with this change.

Jace is definitely relevant to the format, just not to this deck,

[Brael]

Interesting points for us:

Lilianas: Last Hope, Heretical Healer, Veil

Nissas: Vastwood Seer, Vital Force, Steward of Elements

Jaces: Mind Sculptor, Vryn's Prodigy

Thalia's Lancers, Captain Sisay and Reki, the History of Kamigawa (unlikely though)

Liliana of the Veil could be interesting in the right shell, but I'm not sure what that shell is. When I mentioned Liliana I was actually thinking of a couple of the others.

I like that you mentioned Nissa, Steward of Elements. I think that if we do ever figure out a playable blue shell, she's a key player in it. I also want to point out that she's a good card to enable Delirium.

I don't think Captain Sisay is what we want. I admit I'm biased because I think $70 for that card is ridiculous, but I think it's a bit too slow. I would rather tutor a card that turn, rather than pay a 4 mana premium to get it on the next turn (and then still have to pay the mana cost).

[fireiced]

Think simpler. Nissa, Vastwood Seer just got a lot better now that we can run her alongside Vital Force.

Liliana has also improved.

I second this! Sage Animist with Vital Force plussing 1 turn after turn, the opponent is sure to crumble to both the massive tempo advantage and pressure :laugh:

[square_two]

Couple more leagues with Nyx Fit. Overall 6-4 record. Fairly happy with the general deck configuration, need more matches with Sigarda in the side though to see how it shapes up. Didn't really miss Starfield during the second league after taking it out, happy with 4 Souls as well.

TES 0-1 (faster storm deck has led to trouble)
Ruby Storm 1-0 (Lost Legacy on Burning Wish clears things up, have seen other lists with Guttersnipe though)
Czech 1-0
UR Delver 0-1
Topless Miracles/Control 2-0 (Cruel Reality against Jace is super good)
ANT 1-2 (overall 6-3 since doing the evo leap engine)
Infect 1-0 (deed/souls/removal/relevant enchantments make this a good matchup)

Last ANT game, I royally screwed up a great opening hand. Could of had T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Therapy, T3 Dovescape but I fetched for Bayou turn 1 instead of Scrubland. Should of had tighter play there.

Edit: Probably should replace a Savannah with a 2nd Scrubland since my current sideboard is so dense with black. Leap engine not as relevant for the matches where you bring in TS and LL.

[Dr_D]

@Square_two are you still planning on uploading your league videos?

[Dalton!]

Mirri's Guile was suggested a few pages ago. I tested it a bit and found it to be very good. The chance to cast it Turn 1 has really made things work out smooth. With cmc 1 it is in the same Spot as the top was. Can't help myself but i start to like it more than sylvan lybrary because of that "speed".
Has anyone come to the same conclusion?

[Ulysse95]

Mirri's Guile was suggested a few pages ago. I tested it a bit and found it to be very good. The chance to cast it Turn 1 has really made things work out smooth. With cmc 1 it is in the same Spot as the top was. Can't help myself but i start to like it more than sylvan lybrary because of that "speed".
Has anyone come to the same conclusion?

Yes, I tried it a bit. Here's are my conclusions for Mirri's over Sylvan:

+often life matters so you can't abuse of sylvan
+it isn't affected by Leovold or Spirit of the Lab
+it's turn one

-doesn't like chalice*1
-dies easier from deed

But still, if you don't draw it on the first rounds it's quite slow.
So for now I'm testing 2 scroll rack.
My considerations about scroll rack over Mirri's:

+put down on the library all you don't want to have in hand (early hight ccm, targets for tutors (basics, enchant.., lands in mid/lat game)
+let room to deed at 1
+can be effective immediatly
+can "draw" several cards what's a must when you're looking for one outlet (sneak fit, rector or removal for exemple)

-needs cards in hand
-needs 1 mana for activation

[Ulysse95]

Sorry for the double post, but this deck is intriguing me and I have been playing seriously with it today for the first time.

Why don't we go for the max consistency route? (22 lands + 1 arbor), 4 Zeniths, 4 Leaps, 4 Souls, 4 Vets, 4 CT, 4 Rectors and a singleton witness (and 0 sigarda/finks as other creatures, because they disrupt the leap chain)? Beside this main core, one could play the removal suite he prefers the most.

Hello !

Could be smouther, need to be tested and find the slots. But as they said, 4 GSZ needs enought creatures to not be a dead card mid game. I added finks for that purpose (and it's a creature which doesn't interrupt leap loop as it's an expandable one)



A couple first impressions about the enchantment suite: you guys are the experts, but starfield seems a maindeck card for the reasons Arian enumerated earlier. The sinergy with brutality makes the high cmc bombs in hand do something before being recurred by starfield.
After having played online all day, this is what I'm liking at the moment. I'm new with this deck so I might very well be making deckbuilding mistakes, you guys are more experienced than me with this deck, but what do you think?


In fact, for me with less deeds and no sterling groves, Starfield was like a dead card too many times (even with 4 cast out, 2 CB and 1 deed). So it ended in board with 1 sterling grove for me...



Maindeck
-Starfield of Nyx: value enchantment that's good for the reasons we all know. Recurs deeds every turn, puts cast outs into play after we have cycled them in the early game, adds redundancy to the deck and is good against discard and counters.
Speaking of cast out, it seems you guys have ditched it and play more decays, plows, brutalities. Is the cast out interaction just cute in practice? Tell me about it. As Square mentioned, cast out deals with Jace and gurmag and it's nice to have in the maindeck in my opinion.


As said before, in the new shell, it didn't fell good enough for now. For me, curse of misfortune took its place and did very well.
The problem of cast out is that it's adding a slow card to the deck. And if we don't play Starfield, it's cycle effect loose interest. So in 1/2 slots still nice, but no playset I think...



-Overwhelming Splendor (this is usually the go to enchantment against creature decks, right?)
-Curse of Death's Hold (combo with splendor, it sometimes is good on its own)
-Curse of Misfortune: both the above enchantments are curses, so this seems a value enchantment to chain curses. At 5 mana it can be casted naturally and can start the chain without a rector if need be. After sideboard Cruel Reality is another curse to chain. Basically the card is a ramp spell that acts like a bridge between 5 mana and 7-8 mana (Splendor and Cruel Reality).


-Splendor cut creature based strategies, and cut also the shuffle effect from fetch which matters against brainstorms. Wastelands and Manlands too for infect and some control decks.
-Curse of Death's Hold combo with Splendor and Living Plane/Dovescape. Even with Cruel Reality (clean the board from the little creatures to keep CR truly effective)
-Curse of Misfortune: Yes you get my point. I added Curse of predation to maximise it's beneficial CA and get a fast kill (works really good with living plane/dovescape too)



Sideboard
-Dovescape
-Cruel Reality

The reason why I feel like those 2 belong in the sideboard is because against the most popular decks ( grixis delver and pile) all we need is a bunch of enchantments to deal with creatures and those 2 don't quite do that immediatly.
Dovescape can come in against control decks and acts like a pseudo sterling grove that negates their noncreature spells. It can come in against combo even though additional discard spells and hate bears are the main way to survive until the first rector trigger.
Cruel reality comes against all the unfair decks like reanimator, chimp and show and against planeswalker decks. Maybe against lands as well?


I agree for CR which is often overkill.
But Dovescape or Living plane is a hard lock combo which is a true win condition. So it needs to remain in main.
For me I disliked Dovescape when I tried it in the ancient shell, but will give it an other shot with Leap shell.

[Echelon]

Mirri's Guile was suggested a few pages ago. I tested it a bit and found it to be very good. The chance to cast it Turn 1 has really made things work out smooth. With cmc 1 it is in the same Spot as the top was. Can't help myself but i start to like it more than sylvan lybrary because of that "speed".
Has anyone come to the same conclusion?

Yes it was. My opinion hasn't changed - it rocks. Hard.

As for Scroll Rack - I might have to test that. Seems awesome w/ a heap of shuffle effects.

[JackaBo]

There's a new dinosaur out that puts +1/+1 counters on all your creatures when he takes damage. Combos with Walking ballista.
Might be better than LifeGainFit aka Thune, since ballista is hell of a card on its own (which Spike feeder is not).
DinosaurFit incomming!

[Echelon]

It's a 6 mana, non GSZ-able card (that doesn't necessarily win the game on its own). I think you're still better off w/ Sun Titan for that particular slot. Worst case scenario it's a 6/6, vigilance rather than a vanilla 3/5.

[JackaBo]

It's a 6 mana, non GSZ-able card (that doesn't necessarily win the game on its own). I think you're still better off w/ Sun Titan for that particular slot. Worst case scenario it's a 6/6, vigilance rather than a vanilla 3/5.

True :(

[pettdan]

I had another go with Leshrac's list this Wednesday, this time to a 3-1 finish in the local weekly. This time I played with a Ballista over Ulamog and the full 4 Tireless Trackers. I'll write what I remember of the games which should be brief, as I didn't take notes, but due to the lack of testing of this deck (outside of xmage) this can still be of some interest.

Here is my previous post on the list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit&p=1020020&viewfull=1#post1020020


R1 vs UR Standstill:

G1: I mostly remember that it was really difficult to figure out which way to use the cards drawn, tutors that is (should I get Veteran, save GSZ for something else like a Tracker, Crop for P.Tower or a Post or save it for Depths etc). I lost eventually.

G2: I think the opponent played two Delvers that didn't flip for 2-3 turns. I played a Walking Ballista so he couldn't Standstill then. I stabilize, play a Tracker too and his side of the board is empty, I'm at 18 life [edit: may have been 15] as we get close to time, it's looking like I'm winning until.. He goes EoT Price of Progress, I respond with Crop Rotation getting a Glimmerpost for 3 lifepoints, taking 10 damage. He untaps and Snapcaster the Price again. He ends up with 1 life and me at -2. Well, I forgot about the Price of Progress, tough decision making in g1 led to some stress and perhaps Price is not totally expected out of a control deck such as Standstill.

--- Results: 0-2 (0-1 in matches)


R2 vs BU Reanimator

G1: He starts, maybe he opens with a Thoughtseize, not sure. I open with land, play Therapy and miss but see a Careful Study, Daze and two creatures (Iona and Grave Titan). I follow up with Mox Diamond and have the option of using a GSZ to get Ooze next turn which isn't really helpful without extra mana and also exposing it to the Daze, or hope to topdeck a land and GSZ for it with one mana up in two turns, unless he dazes to tap me out. That also seems like a weak plan, so I decide to play proactively and get Arbor with GSZ to flashback therapy, forcing him to daze it and lose a land drop which will at least slow him down and remove his defense. During his turn I think he just passes, and next turn he Careful Studies and Reanimates Iona, naming White. This is looking bad but I've played a Tracker and get the Ooze and manage to race him, since paying 9 life for reanimating Iona is really setting him back on life. He attacks me once and then Iona has to stay home for defense. I think I topdeck a Crop Rotation and Karakas bounces the Iona allowing me to finish.

G2: He starts and passes. At the end of my turn he Entombs, untaps and plays Exhume with FoW backup. I die.

G3: I think I Therapy for Brainstorm or FoW and see that he has nothing early on. He then proceeds to draw into Entomb and a Reanimation spell and gets Grave Titan two turns later. I topdeck Deluge and clear the board. He gets another reanimation spell soon after and reanimates Grave Titan again, and I topdeck the other Deluge. Then get a Crop to Bog away his graveyard and win with maybe Tracker beatdown.

--- Results: 2-1 (1-1 in matches and 2-3 in games)


R3 vs 4c TNN Stoneblade 4c control

G1: He plays t2 Jitte and t3 TNN, so I get a bit worried about how I'm going to race it at 7 damage per turn. Primeval Titan into 2 Glimmerposts to stay alive then Depths + Stage seal it.

G2: I was worried about Back to Basics or similarly as I didn't see much other than blue and white cards in g1, but he plays a load of nonbasics in g2. It was a super grindy game, at some point I deed a board of TNN, Stoneforge, Batterskull-token and a Snapcaster leaving only Jace and the Skull. I think he next casts a Gideon while I get to deploy Titania with a couple of tokens that next turn clear out Jace and threaten his life total, he chump blocks with something to save Gideon another turn. He then manages to Supreme Verdict everything away and I follow up with GSZ for Primeval Titan and Depths + Stage(?) and he concedes in about t3 of time.

--- Results: 2-0 (2-1 in matches, 4-3 in games)


R4 vs Rhino Fit

G1: This opponent is new to legacy and I've been downpaired so he doesn't care too much about the results, he saw my previous game and mentions that he's on something similar. So I choose not to mulligan a starting hand with 4 posts, Phyrexian Tower, a Plains and Crop Rotation, thinking that if I draw a green source I can get Eye of Ugin and win easily vs a Nic Fit deck. He plays Deathrite, clears my hand with Therapy, lands some Rhinos but I draw into two Crop Rotations I think and manage to turn the game around with Eye getting Emrakul while at 1 life, facing 2 Rhinos, then another Crop getting Karakas for infinite Emrakul.

G2: Don't remember too much, a Scavenging Ooze grew to 5/5 and kept his Rhinos home and from there it was pretty easy to win since this lists goes both bigger (Posts), and faster (Depths), and with more card advantage (4 Trackers, 2 Sylvan) than a regular Nic Fit deck.

--- Results: 2-0 (3-1 in matches, 6-3 in games)


I played more fair decks this time which is represented by the better results, still there were some tight wins which probably could have gone worse. On the other hand, in the lost game I really struggled with the decision making so that result could perhaps be improved.

[Hmmm_Really?]

@ the Nyx-Fitters, I've searched this thread (without success) for a post I remember reading where someone was talking about the interaction between Parallax Wave and Starfield at the beginning of upkeep..... but I can't find it. The last search result is for May but I swear it was fairly recent. Ring a bell with anyone?

Parallax Wave
Starfield of Nyx

Thanks in advance.


.

[square_two]

@ the Nyx-Fitters, I've searched this thread (without success) for a post I remember reading where someone was talking about the interaction between Parallax Wave and Starfield at the beginning of upkeep..... but I can't find it. The last search result is for May but I swear it was fairly recent. Ring a bell with anyone?

Parallax Wave
Starfield of Nyx

Thanks in advance.


.

The only real interaction is if Starfield is "on", in which case it acts like Opalescence for the combo. In other words, permanently exile opponent's creatures and protect your own creatures.

However, just playing Parallax Wave early and using it to delay taking combat damage, then getting it back later with Starfield can be pretty useful.

Edit: OH - the thing you might have seen is, you can't sacrifice Wave due to lack of counters, and ALSO get it back by Starfield during the same upkeep. Beginning of upkeep, you have to put the trigger on the stack from Starfield and target an enchantment already in your grave.

[Ulysse95]

@ the Nyx-Fitters, I've searched this thread (without success) for a post I remember reading where someone was talking about the interaction between Parallax Wave and Starfield at the beginning of upkeep..... but I can't find it. The last search result is for May but I swear it was fairly recent. Ring a bell with anyone?

Parallax Wave
Starfield of Nyx

Thanks in advance.


.

Here what can be done with parallax wave + starfield:

If Starfield is activated: classic big combo if no sterling grove. If there's exactly 5 enchant including a sterling grove: sac to phyrexian tower with all parallax activations on stack for permanent exile.

Without starfield:
+ deed to 4, put all your parallax activation in stack for permanent exil
+ Eternal witness, you can use your 5 counters to exile witness and 4 other creatures. During your upkeep, wave dies, witness come back and give you back wave that you can cast again.

[Hmmm_Really?]

More @ the Nyx-Fitters

Why Spirit of the Labyrinth rather than Chains of Mephistopheles? Budget? I get it can be tutored by Recruiter but it dies to a puff of wind.
Arguments for or against Replenish in the SB, coming in against grindy countermagic in the later game?
For reference, I've moved away from Leap (coin toss) to this list. Better certainty and redundancy, imho. And I'm 2-2 vs Storm, so there's that.

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
3 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Dovescape
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Living Plane
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Sterling Grove
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

Creatures
4 Academy Rector
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Veteran Explorer

Sideboard
SB: 1 Cruel Reality
SB: 1 Ground Seal
SB: 1 Cast Out
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium


(Edited for grammer/spilling)

[Navsi]

More @ the Nyx-Fitters

Why Spirit of the Labyrinth rather than Chains of Mephistopheles? Budget? I get it can be tutored by Recruiter but it dies to a puff of wind.
Arguments for or against Replenish in the SB, coming in against grindy countermagic in the later game?
For reference, I've moved away from Leap (coin toss) to this list. Better certainty and redundancy, imho. And I'm 2-2 vs Storm, so there's that.

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
3 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Dovescape
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Living Plane
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Sterling Grove
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

Creatures
4 Academy Rector
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Veteran Explorer

Sideboard
SB: 1 Cruel Reality
SB: 1 Ground Seal
SB: 1 Cast Out
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium


(Edited for grammer/spilling)

Spirit also kills people. The decks you side Spirit in against either run Decay/Chain of Vapor (in which case it doesn't matter) or want to save their removal for Rector if at all possible.

Don't bother with Carpet, since Miracles is way less common now and awful against Leovold.

I don't think you need Living Plane if you have Dovescape. They both do the same thing (close to hardlock) but plane is slightly better at locking while dovescape does more on its own.

I think Cavern of Souls is probably better than Replenish if you are worried about counter heavy decks.

[square_two]

Not a Replenish fan since some of those grindy opponents will bring in graveyard hate. I've seen surgicals, spell bombs, rest in peace brought in. You don't want sideboarding that effectively doubles down on commonly hated strategies imo.

I'm surprised that souls + leap wasn't consistent for you... Enjoying the playset of souls myself, helps in a LOT of match-ups.

[Hmmm_Really?]

I'm surprised that souls + leap wasn't consistent for you... Enjoying the playset of souls myself, helps in a LOT of match-ups.

I jammed about 25 matches last week, so not a very high sample size, admittedly. I was 8 vs 17 against both fair and combo decks. Ouch. When I needed a Rector, Leap flipped a Vet. When I needed a Vet, it flipped Sigarda. Too much "coin toss" variance for me. I'm happier with GSZ, backed up with Diabolic Intent (love that card with Dryad) and Recruiters, to get the right card at the right time.

@Navsi, backup and redundancy and backup and redundancy ;-)
If Plan A goes fubar, with Doomwake and Curse Death together with Living Plane and Dovescape and Splendor, I still have two more angles for the hard lock. Plan B is Starfield and Plan C is the redundant card. And in the mid game, in non-blue situations, they're castable without Rector. Options, options, options.
Regarding Chains, I'm happy if they waste their Vapor on it. If they have a choice, they go for Aegis or one of the six Leylines that came in, no?

[fireiced]

There is an article on CFB regarding BUG Fit
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/blue-nic-fit/.

It is a low to the ground low CMC Nic Fit deck. Wonder what are the thoughts of the wider Nic Fit community on his list.

[JackaBo]

I jammed about 25 matches last week, so not a very high sample size, admittedly. I was 8 vs 17 against both fair and combo decks. Ouch. When I needed a Rector, Leap flipped a Vet. When I needed a Vet, it flipped Sigarda. Too much "coin toss" variance for me. I'm happier with GSZ, backed up with Diabolic Intent (love that card with Dryad) and Recruiters, to get the right card at the right time.

@Navsi, backup and redundancy and backup and redundancy ;-)
If Plan A goes fubar, with Doomwake and Curse Death together with Living Plane and Dovescape and Splendor, I still have two more angles for the hard lock. Plan B is Starfield and Plan C is the redundant card. And in the mid game, in non-blue situations, they're castable without Rector. Options, options, options.
Regarding Chains, I'm happy if they waste their Vapor on it. If they have a choice, they go for Aegis or one of the six Leylines that came in, no?

One thing that is nice about running Recruiter and Intent instead of Evo leap is that you don't have to build your deck around it. Not that I hate Lingering souls but this deck is already soft to actual GY hate, such as RIP, and having a plan B that isn't sounds like a good idea.

[Echelon]

There is an article on CFB regarding BUG Fit
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/blue-nic-fit/.

It is a low to the ground low CMC Nic Fit deck. Wonder what are the thoughts of the wider Nic Fit community on his list.

It kinda feels like a deck with an identity crisis. Does it want to be BUG Delver, or does it want to be Nic Fit?

It probably has a better combo MU than most lists, but will struggle w/ D&T and other grindy MUs. I'd also rather have -1 DRS, +1 Veteran Explorer in that particular list.

For some unrelated news on my own list - Vizier of the Menagerie is out. I'm turning it into a second Tireless Tracker.

Next card I'm having doubts about is Meren of Clan Nel Toth (now that I finally have a foil copy of her, dammit). I haven't used her in a long, long time and haven't wanted to GSZ her for the longest time either. I'm unsure of what to do with the slot though. Do I want another Eternal Witness, or do I want to try a Ramunap Excavator which does somewhat the same when combined w/ Dryad Arbor and w/ the amount of fetches I run will surely help get out all my lands. I mean, w/ 3 Mirri's Guile, a Sylvan Library, a Courser of Kruphix and 2 Tireless Trackers dropping (fetch)lands starts to matter quite a bit.

[crush]

I played Bug Nic Fit yesterday in Prague MKM series.

I got the list from user Testacular. You can watch his 5-0 run here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sfxnsyeSqGdnhM7SJcl9g
List: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15748&d=296522&f=LE

I might disagree with some of his choices in the list or some plays he made during this streaming but what a great aproach in deckbuilding and really cool stream experience. Thank you!

Veteran Tracker BUG:

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold Emissary of Trest
1 Thragtusk
4 Baleful Strix

2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstorm Pulse

4 Brainstrom
2 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict

1 Pernicious Deed
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

60 cards

Sideboard:

3 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Chamr
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I was working on the list with Marco Montani. The meta is now very grindy, very greedy decks everywhere so nic fit seems like an obvious choice as we go bigger than anybody. The problem is cosistency - we all know that. So we tried a nic fit that goes big only a little but does it in every game.

The backbone of the deck - veteran combo empowered by ponders, storms, stirxes leads a us to tracker+fetch or jace. And its not like that we have nothing to ramp into - stronghold+strix; mana for the clues; doing more things in the same round... Its not Grave Titan or some dragon but good enough against all those greedy 4c (Czech pile) decks. Cool thing is that if we dont want to ramp oponent but we want to flashback therapy, strix is an ideal target for this.

Some cards seem a little bit random in term of numbers but it works very well – zenith gets one offs, deluge and deed have a similar function, same for targeted removal. Tar Pit helps to fight Jace; Stronghold gives us inevitability. Shamans cant remove Jace or Deed from graveyard so Witness can always get them.

Force of will is not a good card with all the hymns, Kolaghan's Commands around but against some decks its incredible. I like one off leyline of the Void. It totally fine to play it on T3. But having it in your opener is like another Force AND you can never draw multiples.
Changes I would make now – add Leovold for Tracker perhaps; Add Maelstorm Puls into the board to fight jace.



R1: UWR Blade
G1: I crushed him with Therapy and Jace. When I saw he doesent have white I didnt play Veteran and saced Strix.
G2: He had Jace – Pulse; Then I Thoughtseized him and saw double blast so I took it. Played Witness and instead of bringing back Pulse I got discard to push mine Jace. But he got his second Jace that was the game.
G3: Long and grindy. In the last extra round I had Tusk, double shaman and had jitte no creatures and exatcly one life. He conceded because he appriciated I was trying to win. I still owe him a beer.
1-0

R2: Czech Pile
G1: Discarded four cards with two Therapies on T3 and still lost the game. He drew like a god and a few turns later I Deluged his 3 creatures and played jace – his only card was obivously Spell Pierce! (he told me he plays 4 which is 3 to many at least <)
G2: Tracker into fetch, killed, another Tracker into fetch, killed, Pulse your Jace. Suddednly he had no card and I had 4 plus several Clues. He regretted he didnt conceded earlier.
G3: Therapy on draw naming Strix after he Pondered – double Strom, double Caster! The game was long and we got into time in which I had Stronghold and Wintess and he had no answer to this – he had jace, caster, K. Command. Probably better for him nothing definitive.
1-0-1

R3: Elves
My very nice oppononent from Sweden fogot he can fetch Arbors with Wooded Foothills…
I had tiple discard in both games and jitte after board.
2-0-1

R4: Czech Pile
G1+G3: He couldnt counter Tracker and the card it gave me was enough. Him on two nothing play – I just put shaman on the top with Stornghold – he killed it once Thanks to Sylvan but not the second time.
G2: He locked me out with T3 Leovold after discarding my removal. I had Strix, triple discard…
3-0-1

R5: Miracles
G1+G2: My oponent has everything. There was nothing I could do. When I played two Counterspell instead of two Ponders then it was a very decent matchup but when I only have 4 Therapies its not enough. In th first one he, on the draw, had Spell Snare; in the second he had counterspell T2 for my tracker and hen I casted Therapy on T4 naming Jace he had one off Gideon…
3-1-1

R6: ANT
G1: I thought I will kill him after hitting three cards with Therapy+flashback but turn before death he miraculously had it. If I had another Leovold I would kill him. (Therapied one copy I had)
G2: Leyline! Tapped out with Leovold he went for it – 20 dmg; I drew ten cards and fowed one copy – he scoped.
G3: Therapy hit Infernal and double Petal early. I had Flusterstorm, Fow, Extraction for his Infernals…
4-1-1

R7: Death and Taxes
G1: He started with Vial, double Wasteland. Three turns I only had Swamp. I almost wanted to scoop. Then I drew green souce, Veteran, Therapy, Strix. Jace next turn bounced his tapped mother (wanted to go past my strix putting me down to 3), tharapy this away. I evetualy got him into Wintess, Decay, Jace lock on one life. Yay!
G2: He only had two lands so didnt Therapy+Strix. Pulsed his Vial. Massacre during broad daylight.
5-1-1

R8: Grixis Delver
G1: He started with Probe, Therapy on my Brainstorm. I Therapy him naming Pyromancer. He showed me Bolt, Delver, Delver, Wasteland. Its hard to guess correctly when your oponent doesent play logicaly. I stabilized a one, jace put his nemesis on bottom. Then I had to brainstorm to get zenith for next turn Tusk. He drew bolt.
G2: Killed three creatures with Deluge including Angler and Nemesis. My shaman- he bolted and his second draw after Deluge he had Angler. Land. Go to 10. Veteran. Chump. Leovold. Chump. Ended up Push and Edict. He Had Pyromancer and Angler. I tried Push – Daze – token I died…
I was paired down and my oponent with two losses had no chance of making T8. He refused to continue saying its his first tournament and he wants to have fun. Fair enough.
5-2-1

R9: Bug Control
I am paired up against my friend who always plays his own brews – this time with Liliana, Wasteland, Leovold, Hymn, Sylvan Library. A really cool deck.
His deck doesent have much chance. He won the second because I was screwedn on lands and did nothing for the whole game. Last one I won easily.
6-2-1

25th out of 295. Prizes for 24 players. ;-)

The deck was fantastic. Give it a try!


There is an article on CFB regarding BUG Fit
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/blue-nic-fit/.

It is a low to the ground low CMC Nic Fit deck. Wonder what are the thoughts of the wider Nic Fit community on his list.

I am reposting Tomas Vlcek's post, since it passed by without anyone giving it the deserved notice.

Anyway, Tomas was kind enough to throw us a bone a while back, so I tested his list and I can confirm that it is the best BUG Nic Fit list I have played to date.
However, I came to the same conclusion as the CFB author - fun deck, but not good enough to be competitive. Personally I felt like it tries to play the 4c Cz Pile game in a different (worse) way.

Bottom line, it does not have the classic NicFit oompf, but it is rock solid as far as consistency goes.

[pettdan]

Good point Crush, nice to have it reposted as things get buried by new posts quickly in this thread. I don't have the answer, but the BUG Reanimator Fit list I occasionally play uses Reanimates with 1-2 stronger creatures to hopefully get that extra oomph [edit: sorry, my misunderstanding, it was not desired], however the Reanimates usually translate into extra copies of Strix and Leovold so it turns out very grindy and probably very similar to how that list plays out. There is a core of cards you really want to play in BUG Fit. Maybe a Chameleon Colossus could bring it over the top, someone mentioned how well positioned it is in the meta a while ago (sorry, forget who) and that card is both relatively cheap and a potential 16/16 with evasion. I tend to use Grave Titan, the clock, and Glen Elendra Archmage, the presumed control and combo killer when coupled with Reanimate.

[JackaBo]

It kinda feels like a deck with an identity crisis. Does it want to be BUG Delver, or does it want to be Nic Fit?

It probably has a better combo MU than most lists, but will struggle w/ D&T and other grindy MUs. I'd also rather have -1 DRS, +1 Veteran Explorer in that particular list.

I also think the deck seems a bit iffy. If I were to play competiviteve magic against great magic players who are not all that familiar with Legacy I would expect less delver, less control (=decks that require good matchup and metagame knowledge) and more streamlined decks like Reanimator and Show and tell. Not playing countermagic main seems like a weird decision, especially if your only combo-hate is blind therapies.
Countermagic is also good when you havge a lot of mana, as you do in nicfit. The common usage of all that mana is to go over the top of other decks, but it could also be used to lay down a efficient threat, hold up mana for countermagic or removal and still play around daze.

[Echelon]

I also think the deck seems a bit iffy.

It's not as much iffy but, as the others mentioned, lacks the oomph the more traditional Nic Fit lists have. It looks like it'll run like clockwork beautifully, but by doing so sacrifices the ability to brute force its way to a quick victory.

[pettdan]

Hm, maybe we are missing something here. I now read the article too and actually neither of Koplinchen nor Ondřej Stráský (who is not Koplinchen, I'm guessing) have a problem with the finishers. Here are their comments again. This is his actual conclusion about the deck at the end of the article:


I've had a lot of fun playing Nic Fit this past week, but I think that's all it is—a very enjoyable deck. While you do quite well against other slow, grindy decks because you go slightly bigger, you struggle against the rest of the field. Even the other grindy decks can tempo you out from time to time. I've lost a bunch of games to a Young Pyromancer protected by counterspells drawn off the top after I cleared my opponent's hand with discard. So to sum it up, if you want to have fun, this deck is for you, but if you want tournament success, I'd look elsewhere.

He's not actually commenting on the finishers but rather the deck's ability to stabilize vs tempo strategies, I think, and I guess fight vs combo.


And in the referenced post by Koplinchen above his comment is:


The backbone of the deck - veteran combo empowered by ponders, storms, stirxes leads a us to tracker+fetch or jace. And its not like that we have nothing to ramp into - stronghold+strix; mana for the clues; doing more things in the same round... Its not Grave Titan or some dragon but good enough against all those greedy 4c (Czech pile) decks.


Changes I would make now – add Leovold for Tracker perhaps; Add Maelstorm Puls into the board to fight jace.



So actually, neither of these two players (they are not the same, right) see a need for any expensive finisher, Thragtusk is the top end in Koplinchen's deck and they both use Tracker and Jace.

[Echelon]

Hm, maybe we are missing something here. I now read the article too and actually neither of Koplinchen nor Ondřej Stráský (who is not Koplinchen, I'm guessing) have a problem with the finishers. Here are their comments again. This is his actual conclusion about the deck at the end of the article:

He's not actually commenting on the finishers but rather the deck's ability to stabilize vs tempo strategies, I think, and I guess fight vs combo.

And in the referenced post by Koplinchen above his comment is:

So actually, neither of these two players (they are not the same, right) see a need for any expensive finisher, Thragtusk is the top end in Koplinchen's deck and they both use Tracker and Jace.

I agree with the expensive finisher sentiment - they really are unnecessary. I've found the same to be true for Junk Fit. The problem then isn't necessarily the top end of the curve, but rather the (lack of) ability to transition from one role into another (as far as the tempo MU is concerned). And that's b/c most of the bodies they have don't have a big enough butt to create leverage over their opponents board. Strixes draw cards, but don't make dents in life totals and hence don't pressure your opponent.

[fireiced]

I am reposting Tomas Vlcek's post, since it passed by without anyone giving it the deserved notice.

Anyway, Tomas was kind enough to throw us a bone a while back, so I tested his list and I can confirm that it is the best BUG Nic Fit list I have played to date.
However, I came to the same conclusion as the CFB author - fun deck, but not good enough to be competitive. Personally I felt like it tries to play the 4c Cz Pile game in a different (worse) way.

Bottom line, it does not have the classic NicFit oompf, but it is rock solid as far as consistency goes.

Thanks for bringing that list up, great insights.


I agree with the expensive finisher sentiment - they really are unnecessary. I've found the same to be true for Junk Fit. The problem then isn't necessarily the top end of the curve, but rather the (lack of) ability to transition from one role into another (as far as the tempo MU is concerned). And that's b/c most of the bodies they have don't have a big enough butt to create leverage over their opponents board. Strixes draw cards, but don't make dents in life totals and hence don't pressure your opponent.

I am laying Grave Titan and Nissa VF main including the "finishers" they have. I believe the oompfh is taken by the massive amounts of U cards to support the sb FOWs. In paper I have completely given up on counterspells as they are simply just lackluster but Snapcaster Mage does quite a bit in gaining back tempo. I have also included the 1 off Wurmcoil Engine from my experiences with Sneaky Fit in the SB to make non-stp tempo decks sad.

[Echelon]

I believe the oompfh is taken by the massive amounts of U cards to support the sb FOWs.

Yup. That's why they don't have enough (big) butts to transition from being the control to being the beatdown. They keep being pushed into the control role, eventually run out of cards and end up getting trampled underfoot. It's how I win most of my games w/ Junk Fit - at some point my opponent is out of answers and gets crushed under a metric ton of Rhino butt (or I fall just a few butts short of a full crushing, that's the other end of it). By doing so I do kinda forfeit G1 vs. anyCombo though, unfortunately.

[crush]

The BUG deck is built to abuse Tireless Tracker. He is the only bomb the deck needs (no Titans, etc.).

The card is very good and in my opinion underestimated in NicFit shells. With proper setup it will draw you 2-4 cards, which is enough to push you ahead.

The drawbacks of the deck are not the lack of oompf (this is merely a design decision), but it's slowness and setup requirements. The opponent can easily disregard a resolved Tracker and alpha strike you.

When I play 4c Pile, the deck just feels more robust and can achieve 90% of this decks game plan without any effort or setup, while being miles better at playing different roles if required.

With all that said, I encourage everyone to play with the above list and draw your own conclusions. The deck is good so it deserves to be developed further.

[Navsi]

I think the BUG list above would be significantly better if it swapped Forces for Discard, allowing it to drop the blue count for more Trackers and Zeniths.

[Arianrhod]

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emmisary of Trest
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Verdurous Gearhulk

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push

2 Pernicious Deed

1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

sb::
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction

While we're on the topic of low to the ground BUG lists, this was my take a couple weeks ago...I called it Salt Fit because I was particularly aggravated with brewing blockages when working on it. I threw it together and played a couple matches with it -- it definitely does well fairly well, but it's not really something I'm into. It plays very aggressively and it's very good at what it does. Zenithing VHulk with TNN(s) out is disgusting.

Just something to add to the conversation.

[Leshrac82]

I didn't really want to make another post yet, but pettdan thinks otherwise since i 5-0ed a League on Magic Online. Ok, maybe that's something worth posting. :wink:
But i don't really want to spend this post going over my 5-0 League (i beat Sneak&Show, 2x Stoneblade, Lands and Tron) and rather look at the big picture:

I have been playing on Magic Online for 2 weeks now with my NicFit-Cloudpost-hybrid - well, actually playing for 1 week, since i took a break for some days after a really bad start and thought about what went wrong. It got better and i cashed my last 4 leagues going 4-1, 5-0, 3-2, 4-1. Overall just a small samplesize of ~80 matches so far, and the drop in winrate compared to xmage is very noticable, but it's still over 50% and i think it should get higher over time.

The list i played for the successful Leagues:

61 Cards Maindeck:

Lands (27):

4 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (16):

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells (18):

2 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15):

2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Lingering Souls
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed


Changes to my last posts:
1. I'm trying at least 1 Deathrite maindeck over the 3rd Mox (i was experimenting with 2 on xmage, by cutting a fetchland, but i went back on that change). This was initially a budget consideration for Magic Online, but i think it's actually better for the meta - very many slower blue decks, and i would usually board out the 3rd Mox in those games. (It's possible i even want something bigger instead, Deathrite isn't the best topdeck either. I'm thinking about Walking Ballista again.)
2. Im playing Toxic Deluge over Engineered Explosives in the board. Not sure about that, but it's probably fine - not many decks where i prefer Explosives over Deluge.
3. Im back to 2x Nissa in the board instead of 2x Swords to Plowshares. These are my flex slots, and the current metagame on Magic Online is rather low on Delver decks and high on other fair blue decks (and my winrate dropped far more against those decks than Delver decks, so i want more help for that).

For more than half of my matches i played 2x Thoughtseize in the flex slots in anticipation of more and better combo players. That change was very bad - it made me board out 2 Trackers against combo to make room, and i lost more than one game against a basically empty-handed Storm player who topdecked the perfect card, when i had Thoughtseize in hand for a while but not enough pressure to kill them fast enough.

Compared to xmage, the drop in winrate is very noticable (winrate on xmage stands at 73% over >400 matches).

What didn't change?
My winrate against fair non-blue decks didn't drop at all, i won every match against D&T, Maverick, Lands and Pox. It's just a much smaller part of the metagame.
My winrate against Delver is also pretty much the same (8-4 so far is fine).

What did change?
My winrate against fair blue midrange/control decks dropped significantly, from ~75% to ~50%. These decks are overall by far the largest part of the metagame.
My winrate against combo decks completely imploded, especially against Storm (not much samplesize against other combo decks). My winrate against Storm on xmage was >80%, now i'm 3-6 against it.

Reason for the drop in winrate, apart from bad luck (i think i was running really bad for the first few days) and bad play (i made too many small mistakes):
The difference in player quality is very noticable: The blue midrange decks are currently not only the most played deck, these are also the decks most of the top players are playing (whenever i recognized a screen name from videos or streams i had watched, it was a safe bet to put them on one of those decks). For combo on the other hand, at this point i think testing against that on xmage is just completely pointless - i think every Storm player i played against was miles ahead of almost every Storm player on xmage. (Every Storm player always played around Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog and went for Ad Nauseam, Storm players on xmage often don't even do that when they know i have Crop Rotation.)


I need more data for a real analysis. I definitely want to have a positive winrate against the blue midrange decks, and i'm not sure how to attack them - in general, the 12-post part of my deck should handle that, but they are overall aggressive and disruptive enough to stop that far too often. I'm confidant the deck can handle combo decks, i just have to get used to much better Storm players - more combo hate is not really an option, since that already backfired, the number of cards i can board out is limited.

However, the deck is definitely competitive. If i can hold my current winrate it's already enough to go infinite on Magic Online, and i think it should get higher over time, the last few Leagues have been looking pretty good, maybe i just needed some time to adjust.

[Echelon]

@Leshrac82: Those results sound more logical, especially vs. Storm. There's a world of difference between playing vs. a novice TES/ANT pilot (someone who's just trying the deck out on xmage) and playing vs. someone who's been piloting the deck for years (and hence invested in it on Magic Online). Sucks man, but welcome to our world. You're a Nic Fit-er now :laugh:.

Unfortunately at my LGS I only tend to run into the latter, lol.

[Arianrhod]

Some late night musings based on some testing I did today with my white Traverse list:

Palace Jailer is very impressive. I was testing vs UW Blade, and I was able to outgrind them and frequently ended the game with something like half of the deck size that they had. I think that the draw effect being mana-free is actually rather important.

Tracker is a good card, certainly, and there are matchups (and just games, even) where he 100% runs away by himself. But he's also slow and expensive. He overperforms in Leshrac's list because of Cloudpost mana, but other versions don't have that luxury.

Not having Top to lean on has made me rethink a lot of the structural theory of Nic Fit. For example: why is Green Sun's Zenith so amazing for us?

-) It's mana early and a threat late
-) It's a great topdeck
-) It's a tutor, finding a specific bullet to solve a problem

This is one of the things that has me so hyped about Traverse -- it's essentially Zeniths 5-8, since it fulfills the same checkboxes as the above. If we can't have the filtering of Top, having 8 tutors to rip off the top is pretty much the next best thing. Furthermore, they let us use our mana efficiently. If we're flooded, we can just get a bigger / better thing -- they scale with our situation. This is also why Ballista has been so impressive to me: it scales with our board and fills whatever role we need it to fill.

I think that Jailer is on the right track for the type of card draw we need: defensive draw, with no mana cost attached beyond the initial payment. The only other things I can think of that draw cards without consuming mana are Phyrexian Arena (meh) and Ob Nixilis Reignited (also meh but maybe slightly less meh?). Nissa Vital Force's ult is a lot easier to get off than people give it credit for, but it's also pretty slow. Chandra Torch is filling much the same role in Jund, and Brael has been using Bob for this purpose for quite some time. I'm not sure what other "free" draw there is, but I think that it's the way we need to look for. We just flat out can't afford the tempo hit of Night's Whisper or Painful Truths -- we need more incremental sources, preferably those that help keep us alive along the way (like Jailer).

Somebody might want to consider looking into an explosive BUG list with Crop Rotations and multiple Jaces. Some kind of turbo Jace build might be hype, since he's still one of the absolute masters of that type of game -- maximizing the number of turn two Jace lines would fix some of our problems with him historically, I think. Once we get him out and untap with him, we can probably protect him pretty well. It's just a matter of getting him out before we're massively behind on board. Ponder might be better than Brainstorm in a blue build. That sounds like heresy, but I'm not sure. Ponder is a much better topdeck, and no matter how bulky our card flow package, we're still going to end up topdecking a fair amount of the time just by virtue of being a ramp core.

Are there any other playable Monarch cards? Might be worth looking into.

I'm not sure how to revitalize Jund versions at this point. Chandra and Kommand definitely helps, but they're also definitely not enough. We might just flat out need to look into Bloodbraid at this point and acknowledge the fact that some % of the time it's just going to suck. Is there a reasonably costed killspell in jund that cantrips? That seems like something we would want...like 1br kill a thing draw a card.

I dunno. I'm tired now. Just wanted to idea vomit a little in the hopes that some of it might be useful down the road.

[sdematt]

The BUG Fit List I was thinking was more like this:

4 Veteran
2 DRS
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold
1 Trygon Predator (bringing sexy back...)
1 Thragtusk
1 Tracker (Tireless, but I still have love for Ulvenwald).
1 New 4GG Dinosaur guy (damn, I want me some Baleful Strix but what room? :/ . )

2 Jace, TMS

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Fatal Push
2 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
1 Painful Truths

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal THerapy

20/21 Lands (6 Basics, 8 Fetches, 2 Strongholds, 5 Duals)

//Board

2 Abrupt Decay (kill all the things)
2 Null Rod (Combo/Lands/Equipment)
3 Flusterstorm (Combo)
3 Surgical Extraction (GY)
2 Thoughtseize (Combo)
3 Back to Basics (Fuckin' 4C pile, plus I have 3 Korean ones, so...)

I'd love to run more shenanigans like Recurring Nightmare and stuff, and I also want more value. Maybe a Master of the Wild Hunt? Deranged Hermit to plug up the board?

[Echelon]

@Arianrhod: Brael did a lot of work w/ Dark Confidant, which also plays well w/ stuff like Walking Ballista. As for (potential) CA creatures I've been dabbling with:
- Tireless Tracker: As you said, can steal games but takes a lot of mana
- Courser of Kruphix: Conditional CA. Even skimming off a land from the top of your library means you're one turn closer to drawing what you need. Works very well w/ manipulation like Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library. Even without further manipulation it helps you time your shuffle effects, which can be the difference between life and death. Creates a neat little loop w/ the two Towers & Dryad Arbor
- Meren of Clan Nel Toth: Conditional CA. Sucks vs. GY hate, sucks in the early game, can be an absolute beast in the late game.
- Vizier of the Menagerie: Conditional CA, probably worst of the bunch. Can be useful in an extremely creature heavy list. Has the same other benefits as Courser.
- Eternal Witness: In multiples. Can be awesome and backbreaking, can be mediocre.

[Ralf]

There is also Custodi Lich that is amazing.
5 CMC is a lot but its effect is far more powerful than Palace if you ask me.

[Matsu]

...
I think that Jailer is on the right track for the type of card draw we need: defensive draw, with no mana cost attached beyond the initial payment. The only other things I can think of that draw cards without consuming mana are Phyrexian Arena (meh) and Ob Nixilis Reignited (also meh but maybe slightly less meh?). Nissa Vital Force's ult is a lot easier to get off than people give it credit for, but it's also pretty slow. Chandra Torch is filling much the same role in Jund, and Brael has been using Bob for this purpose for quite some time. I'm not sure what other "free" draw there is, but I think that it's the way we need to look for. We just flat out can't afford the tempo hit of Night's Whisper or Painful Truths -- we need more incremental sources, preferably those that help keep us alive along the way (like Jailer).
...



Ob Nixilis Reignited doesn't kill TNN which do not place him well in the current meta. If you do not expect a lot of TNN, he does a great job for a relatively low cost.

[Alexeezay]

After a long time not playing Nic Fit at all (I played Scapeshift/Wish Nic Fit a few years ago), here is my current test list of Nyx Fit:

// 11 Creature
4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons - will switch to the new 7/6 MVP dinosaur
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Innocent Blood

// 13 Enchantment
4 Cast Out
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sandwurm Convergence

// 22 Land
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Dovescape
SB: 2 Ground Seal
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach

It's a work in progress:
1. I saw lists with Evolutionary Leap but I didn't like it. I would play Diabolic Intent or more Innocent Blood, seems more efficient.
2. 4 Castout should be a good compromise because you can always cycle it and it's a good answer to planeswalkers.
I'm just not sure on the numbers of cheap removal or if I got too few right now...maybe Delver matchups etc. suffer from only 2 Blood 2 Brutality?
3. I wanted a maindeck card for the Storm matchup and chose: Leyline of Sanctity, got some utility vs. discard, direct damage and Liliana + is cheaper than something like Dovescape. Can be trashed with Collective Brutality.
4. Do you think I'm missing out on Lingering Souls and it's a mistake not to run them?
5. What's your experience with Cruel Reality? Where or in which matchups is it most useful? Should I cut it for a cheaper interactive spell maybe?

Sideboard:
6. Ground Seals are mainly for 4C Control, Reanimator, Lands which make up a large part of current Legacy. It's a solid cantripping hate card. To beat Reanimator, of course I have the Leylines as well.
7. Hymn to Tourach and Sylvan Library mainly to grind out Control decks. Do you prefer Palace Jailer?

I'd really like to get this relatively competitive, although I'm not worried as a long-time Lands player.

[Navsi]

It's a work in progress:
1. I saw lists with Evolutionary Leap but I didn't like it. I would play Diabolic Intent or more Innocent Blood, seems more efficient.
2. 4 Castout should be a good compromise because you can always cycle it and it's a good answer to planeswalkers.
I'm just not sure on the numbers of cheap removal or if I got too few right now...maybe Delver matchups etc. suffer from only 2 Blood 2 Brutality?
3. I wanted a maindeck card for the Storm matchup and chose: Leyline of Sanctity, got some utility vs. discard, direct damage and Liliana + is cheaper than something like Dovescape. Can be trashed with Collective Brutality.
4. Do you think I'm missing out on Lingering Souls and it's a mistake not to run them?
5. What's your experience with Cruel Reality? Where or in which matchups is it most useful? Should I cut it for a cheaper interactive spell maybe?

Sideboard:
6. Ground Seals are mainly for 4C Control, Reanimator, Lands which make up a large part of current Legacy. It's a solid cantripping hate card. To beat Reanimator, of course I have the Leylines as well.
7. Hymn to Tourach and Sylvan Library mainly to grind out Control decks. Do you prefer Palace Jailer?

I'd really like to get this relatively competitive, although I'm not worried as a long-time Lands player.

1. Leap is both a way of finding Rector and a way of sacrificing him in a single card, which is pretty relevant. Intent either finds him or sacrifices him, but not both. Intent also 2-for-1s you if it gets countered, whereas Leap does not. If you get good results with Intent do let us know, but I've never found it very effective.
2. I am not fond of Cast Out. The only planeswalker we really care about is JTMS, and even there a single resolved Rector trigger probably wins us the game anyway, so I don't know if Cast Out is really necessary - if you can resolve a 4 mana spell I would rather have a Rector. I would run some number of Swords to Plowshares before Cast Out or Innocent Blood - being both cheap and instant is great. I like Swords/Brutality for primary removal, with some number of Decay, Deed and Deluge. If you want more answers to planeswalkers I would run To The Slaughter in that slot.
3. Dovescape is a hardlock with Curse of Death's Hold, and against a lot of decks in the format. I also don't think you need both Cruel Reality and Sandwurm Convergence, since they both do very similar things. Personally, I'd cut the Starfield, Convergence and Leyline and add a Dovescape. Leyline does work okay, but it doesn't stop your opponent from cantripping / going off and then finding a bounce spell, where Dovescape does. Dovescape also locks out Omnitell, which you don't really have anything against.
4. You definitely want Souls if you are playing Leap. Without Evolutionary Leap, it's a lot less good and I wouldn't bother unless I had some other major payoff for having lots of small creatures. It does make for an excellent speedbump and hate for control decks, though.
5. Cruel Reality is there as a Rector target that deals with a resolved Jace. It also gives us something we can find with Rector which can actually kill the opponent, which is quite handy too. If we fetched something like Cast Out, we'd have traded even with the opponent's planeswalker but we haven't actually put ourselves in control of the board. CReality puts us at the advantage when it comes to dealing with their boardstate.

6. Ground Seal also protects our own Rectors from Deathrite and Surgical Extraction.
7. I play Library in the main, but don't feel Hymn is very good. I'd rather play more discard (though you run Thoughtseize maindeck). Personally the sideboard I run is 3 Leyline Void / 2 Ethersworn Canonist / 2 Toxic Deluge / 2 Lost Legacy / 2 Leyline Sanctity / 2 Thoughtseize / 2 Ground Seal. The deck already has a pretty reasonable control matchup (since they often cant' deal with big enchantments, especially dovescape) and I have a Cavern of Souls in the main to help too. If I was spending slots on it (beyond Ground Seal) I would probably remove a Leyline of Sanctity for a Starfield.

[square_two]

Also keep in mind that while Evo Leap is both a way to find AND sacrifice Rector, it is also a way to do so at instant speed to help play around opponent's mainphase discard or things like Deathrite activations. Evo Leaping Rector for Dovescape has been my favorite line of play recently.

Regarding Palace Jailer - I played him for a bit in Soldier Stompy and in the right circumstances he is an absolute house. Makes me wonder if there could be a Jailer-oriented Junk list. Souls does a fine job blocking or getting in damage while you outdraw the opponent. Or go 4c with Baleful Strixes to help hold down the fort. Something something combat walkers such as Elspeth? Or stick to Rhinos? Sounds like the sort of deck I'd have 1-2 Deluge main to help deal with TNN - that or Zealous Persecution.

[Memories of the Time]

1) Quote Navsi: Now that top has been banned, Leap is the only good way left to reach the consistency we need. Intent is not even similar as power level and functionality

2) I play 1 Cast out to have a catch-all, but that's it. If you want to play a slighty different deck, with Replenish for example, more Cast Out are obv

3) Yeah, there's nothing like Dovescape. With leap it's often my first target after have sac a rector, because it close the possibility of dealing with our plan for good. I don't play Curse/Giant, anyway, and since the top ban i don't want to do it again. We simply don't need it, and we have always better targets.

4) Yeah, Lingering is very good but without leap (that i consider a very wrong choice, as said) they could be cut, probably.

6) I've never tried Ground Seal but i've thought a lot about it: is it really usefull against midrange/tempo decks?

Anyway, i leave my list too here. I'm testing scroll rack instead of Library, and i strongly think that Convergence>>>Cruel Reality

// 60 Mazzo
// 2 Artifact
2 Scroll Rack

// 10 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Dryad Arbor

// 12 Enchantment
3 Sterling Grove
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Evolutionary Leap
1 Dovescape
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Cast Out
1 Overwhelming Splendor

// 22 Land
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cavern of Souls

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Collective Brutality (too perfect for this deck, too many good options)
4 Lingering Souls


// 15 Sideboard
// 7 Enchantment
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red (Metacall)
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Ground Seal (testing)

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares (Not sure)

// 6 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Lost Legacy

As you can see, i run very few big ench for targets and i never lost a game for not having the right one

[Arianrhod]

Also keep in mind that while Evo Leap is both a way to find AND sacrifice Rector, it is also a way to do so at instant speed to help play around opponent's mainphase discard or things like Deathrite activations. Evo Leaping Rector for Dovescape has been my favorite line of play recently.

Regarding Palace Jailer - I played him for a bit in Soldier Stompy and in the right circumstances he is an absolute house. Makes me wonder if there could be a Jailer-oriented Junk list. Souls does a fine job blocking or getting in damage while you outdraw the opponent. Or go 4c with Baleful Strixes to help hold down the fort. Something something combat walkers such as Elspeth? Or stick to Rhinos? Sounds like the sort of deck I'd have 1-2 Deluge main to help deal with TNN - that or Zealous Persecution.

I mean, Ishkanah does one HELL of a job at making sure you stay the Monarch.

Something of note, while we're on the subject: I did a little Gatherer digging this morning, and there is a card called Regal Behemoth that exists. It's a 6-mana green idiot that causes you to become the monarch on ETB, as well as having the line of text that whenever you tap a land for mana, add a mana of any color to your pool. I'm not entirely sure that this is relevant, but being a GSZable monarch enabler is notable, I think. I'm mostly thinking of a BUG shell here, since that would let you theoretically play him while holding up protection(counterspell) off 1 land. Very likely not better than Carnage or Bellower, but, who knows.

I'm not sure Custodi Lich is better than Jailer, just due to the extra point of cmc. It's definitely good to know that Lich exists, though, which I did not previously. Seems like it could be relevant in Jund or BUG depending on if there's a way to tutor him in the list (probably Traverse or Pod).

[Ralf]

I mean, Ishkanah does one HELL of a job at making sure you stay the Monarch.

Something of note, while we're on the subject: I did a little Gatherer digging this morning, and there is a card called Regal Behemoth that exists. It's a 6-mana green idiot that causes you to become the monarch on ETB, as well as having the line of text that whenever you tap a land for mana, add a mana of any color to your pool. I'm not entirely sure that this is relevant, but being a GSZable monarch enabler is notable, I think. I'm mostly thinking of a BUG shell here, since that would let you theoretically play him while holding up protection(counterspell) off 1 land. Very likely not better than Carnage or Bellower, but, who knows.

I'm not sure Custodi Lich is better than Jailer, just due to the extra point of cmc. It's definitely good to know that Lich exists, though, which I did not previously. Seems like it could be relevant in Jund or BUG depending on if there's a way to tutor him in the list (probably Traverse or Pod).

Custodi Lich usually stalls the board if not removed because:
- 1) its effect is permanent
- 2) its effect will trigger again each time you become the Monarch.

Ishkanah is really nice.

Here is my last Jund's iteration (everything isn't perfect yet to my taste but the deck is solid):

Punishing T. Fit

1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
1 Wasteland
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Custodi Lich
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nissa, Vital Force

1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pulse of Murasa
3 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Lost Legacy
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Slingers
SB: 1 Ramunap Excavator
SB: 2 XXX

I'm still pondering if I stick with Ishkanah or not. The new Qasali cat is very interesting as it offers 2 useful effects: a way to block flying creatures + sage's effect. It will free up a slot in SB.

The rest is pretty straight forward.
Crop rotation will give you access to some broken T2 while being good in numerous MUs (tutoring what you need).
the lone wasteland is to have an out against decks that tend to go over us. Ramunap post board is icy on the cake.

[Echelon]

New Qasali cat?

[Navsi]

Qasali Slingers. It's in the sideboard - 3/5 Reach Reclamation Sage for 4G.

[Echelon]

To improve the Delver and D&T/artifact based decks MUs?

[Brael]

@Arianrhod: Brael did a lot of work w/ Dark Confidant, which also plays well w/ stuff like Walking Ballista. As for (potential) CA creatures I've been dabbling with:
- Tireless Tracker: As you said, can steal games but takes a lot of mana
- Courser of Kruphix: Conditional CA. Even skimming off a land from the top of your library means you're one turn closer to drawing what you need. Works very well w/ manipulation like Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library. Even without further manipulation it helps you time your shuffle effects, which can be the difference between life and death. Creates a neat little loop w/ the two Towers & Dryad Arbor
- Meren of Clan Nel Toth: Conditional CA. Sucks vs. GY hate, sucks in the early game, can be an absolute beast in the late game.
- Vizier of the Menagerie: Conditional CA, probably worst of the bunch. Can be useful in an extremely creature heavy list. Has the same other benefits as Courser.
- Eternal Witness: In multiples. Can be awesome and backbreaking, can be mediocre.

With the exception of Vizier, I play all of the above in my build.

4 Bob
4 Tracker
1 Courser
1 Meren
1 Eternal Witness

If we're considering Palace Jailer, I think there's a better option: Ranger of Eos. It's easier to cast and a bigger body at the same CMC. It provides cards faster, and it provides specific cards which is better than a random card. Endless One, Sylvan Safekeeper, Deathrite Shaman, and Walking Ballista all make for excellent tutor targets.

[fireiced]

Yup. That's why they don't have enough (big) butts to transition from being the control to being the beatdown. They keep being pushed into the control role, eventually run out of cards and end up getting trampled underfoot. It's how I win most of my games w/ Junk Fit - at some point my opponent is out of answers and gets crushed under a metric ton of Rhino butt (or I fall just a few butts short of a full crushing, that's the other end of it). By doing so I do kinda forfeit G1 vs. anyCombo though, unfortunately.


The BUG deck is built to abuse Tireless Tracker. He is the only bomb the deck needs (no Titans, etc.).

The card is very good and in my opinion underestimated in NicFit shells. With proper setup it will draw you 2-4 cards, which is enough to push you ahead.

The drawbacks of the deck are not the lack of oompf (this is merely a design decision), but it's slowness and setup requirements. The opponent can easily disregard a resolved Tracker and alpha strike you.

When I play 4c Pile, the deck just feels more robust and can achieve 90% of this decks game plan without any effort or setup, while being miles better at playing different roles if required.

With all that said, I encourage everyone to play with the above list and draw your own conclusions. The deck is good so it deserves to be developed further.

I agree with you both. Tracker is stellar in BUG fit compared to other variants I have played say Rhino Fit and Sneaky Fit


I think the BUG list above would be significantly better if it swapped Forces for Discard, allowing it to drop the blue count for more Trackers and Zeniths.

That is exactly what I did for my paper games, Forces for more Threats and 1 TS



1 Dryad Arbor
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emmisary of Trest
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Verdurous Gearhulk

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push

2 Pernicious Deed

1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

sb::
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction

While we're on the topic of low to the ground BUG lists, this was my take a couple weeks ago...I called it Salt Fit because I was particularly aggravated with brewing blockages when working on it. I threw it together and played a couple matches with it -- it definitely does well fairly well, but it's not really something I'm into. It plays very aggressively and it's very good at what it does. Zenithing VHulk with TNN(s) out is disgusting.

Just something to add to the conversation.

:laugh: Why did I not think of placing many counters on a resolved TNN via G hulk. And wow 4 DRS! :eek:



Ponder might be better than Brainstorm in a blue build. That sounds like heresy, but I'm not sure. Ponder is a much better topdeck, and no matter how bulky our card flow package, we're still going to end up topdecking a fair amount of the time just by virtue of being a ramp core.


Ponder is indeed better than Brainstorm pound for pound as Ponder lets you look at maximum of 4 cards compared to the 3 of Brainstorm. Not to mention Brainstorm will "brainstorm lock" you without a shuffle effect. Contention of Brainstorm VS Ponder should ultimately boil down to the deck construction and pilot preferred playstyle. The more fetchlands and shuffle effects = Brainstorm better and vice versa. I remember reading somewhere when you have 12 or more shuffle effects in your deck, Brainstorm's power spikes quite hard. I personally play 12 (8 Fetchlands, 3 GSZ and 1 Nissa Vastwood Seer). However even with a lot more shuffle effects, Ponder always come up better if you are just looking for specific cards as it digs 4 cards deep. I believe Ponder suits you more Kevin as you tend to play a more controlling style.

[Alexeezay]

@Memories of the Time: Can you elaborate on Sterling Grove? Especially because you run 3...like what are you tutoring up most of the time? Deed? If so, isn't more Deed/removal better? Because to me, it doesn`t make much sense to tutor up like an 8 mana Enchantment that you can't cast most of the time and want to get with Rector anyway.

[Ulysse95]

@Memories of the Time: Can you elaborate on Sterling Grove? Especially because you run 3...like what are you tutoring up most of the time? Deed? If so, isn't more Deed/removal better? Because to me, it doesn`t make much sense to tutor up like an 8 mana Enchantment that you can't cast most of the time and want to get with Rector anyway.

I agree, Sterling grove is stronger with enchantement-creatures or Starfield of Nyx. But you don't run them. And with neither it's just a bad enlightened tutor most of the time as people rarely run good enchant hate in G1 (only decay and sometimes a qasali/pulse/reclamation sage)

[Memories of the Time]

@Memories of the Time: Can you elaborate on Sterling Grove? Especially because you run 3...like what are you tutoring up most of the time? Deed? If so, isn't more Deed/removal better? Because to me, it doesn`t make much sense to tutor up like an 8 mana Enchantment that you can't cast most of the time and want to get with Rector anyway.

The entire list is changing, and i'm testing the deck without Starfield. In my previous experience (and lists) Grove has been fundamental to get the right ench before the 4° turn.
I'm not sure either about what should take grove place: from my experience, if is there something this deck is missing is the control on the topdeck that the old top guaranteed. The only card that can do a similar job is Mirri's Guile, for its cc, i fear.

[Echelon]

By extension there would be Sylvan Library, I reckon?

[Memories of the Time]

By extension there would be Sylvan Library, I reckon?

Different CC, different choices. We have a lot of possibilities on CC2: i've tested both Library and Mirri and now Scroll Rack, even Painful Truths. Mirri is good but dies every time you sac Deed, for example.

[Hmmm_Really?]

Mirri is good but dies every time you sac Deed, for example.

Another Mirri fan here. If I'm popping my Deed, I'm doing it for a very good reason. Either to get of rid of something bad on their side or to get rid of my Rector. So, by T4 or T5, losing Mirri is simply collateral damage that's OK by me.

[Brael]

I mean, Ishkanah does one HELL of a job at making sure you stay the Monarch.

Something of note, while we're on the subject: I did a little Gatherer digging this morning, and there is a card called Regal Behemoth that exists. It's a 6-mana green idiot that causes you to become the monarch on ETB, as well as having the line of text that whenever you tap a land for mana, add a mana of any color to your pool. I'm not entirely sure that this is relevant, but being a GSZable monarch enabler is notable, I think. I'm mostly thinking of a BUG shell here, since that would let you theoretically play him while holding up protection(counterspell) off 1 land. Very likely not better than Carnage or Bellower, but, who knows.

I'm not sure Custodi Lich is better than Jailer, just due to the extra point of cmc. It's definitely good to know that Lich exists, though, which I did not previously. Seems like it could be relevant in Jund or BUG depending on if there's a way to tutor him in the list (probably Traverse or Pod).

I think that Entourage of Trest would do a better job of making you the Monarch and helping you hold the crown, especially in an equipment build.

[Arianrhod]

Regisaur Alpha
3RG
Creature - Dinosaur, Rare
Other Dinosaurs you control have haste.
When Regisaur Alpha enters the battlefield, create a 3/3 green Dinosaur creature token with trample.

Even better than we'd hoped -- it's a 4/4 itself, and the token it makes has trample. This thing is going to be good for sure.

[Brael]

Regisaur Alpha
3RG
Creature - Dinosaur, Rare
Other Dinosaurs you control have haste.
When Regisaur Alpha enters the battlefield, create a 3/3 green Dinosaur creature token with trample.

Even better than we'd hoped -- it's a 4/4 itself, and the token it makes has trample. This thing is going to be good for sure.

I definitely like that as an alternative to Nissa. I think Nissa is still stronger, but being able to GSZ is worth a lot.

Edit: Thoughts on using Crop Rotation to fuel Throne of the High City as a Monarch enabler?

[Navsi]

I definitely like that as an alternative to Nissa. I think Nissa is still stronger, but being able to GSZ is worth a lot.

Edit: Thoughts on using Crop Rotation to fuel Throne of the High City as a Monarch enabler?

If I was gonna use Throne of the High City as a draw engine, I'd rather do it with Ramunap Excavator than with Rotation.

[Brael]

Excavator can't tutor though.

[Navsi]

Excavator can't tutor though.

Knight of the Reliquary does though. It's not like you need Throne early game, it costs 5 mana to activate.

[Echelon]

You can combine the three (or four+ if you plan to run Crop Rotation) to turn it into a nice little package.

Seems slow as hell though.

[Navsi]

You can combine the three (or four+ if you plan to run Crop Rotation) to turn it into a nice little package.

Seems slow as hell though.

I think the Excavator / KOTR / Tireless Tracker / Titania / Azusa built has potential to go somewhere interesting.

In that build you have space for some number of utility lands. In the version I was testing I had 2 Ghost Quarter, 1 Tower, 1 Karakas, 1 Canopy - but I could potentially see Throne making it in. I suspect Horizon Canopy might be just straight up better though.

[Echelon]

Might be. Migth also be a lot of durdling without actually doing much, and w/ a bunch of rather fragile creatures too.

[Navsi]

Might be. Migth also be a lot of durdling without actually doing much, and w/ a bunch of rather fragile creatures too.

I mean, it's not like Tracker, Titania and KOTR aren't solid beatdown creatures in their own right anyway, and Excavator + GQ is a reasonable backup game ender against some decks. It's basically just Azusa that's underwhelming without support, and she could probably be cut.

[Echelon]

I mean, it's not like Tracker, Titania and KOTR aren't solid beatdown creatures in their own right anyway, and Excavator + GQ is a reasonable backup game ender against some decks. It's basically just Azusa that's underwhelming without support, and she could probably be cut.

Dammit, I agree with you :laugh:

[square_two]

I mean, it's not like Tracker, Titania and KOTR aren't solid beatdown creatures in their own right anyway, and Excavator + GQ is a reasonable backup game ender against some decks. It's basically just Azusa that's underwhelming without support, and she could probably be cut.

I dunno, you haven't lived until you GSZ for Asuza and then triple GQ your opponent :laugh:

[Brael]

Knight of the Reliquary does though. It's not like you need Throne early game, it costs 5 mana to activate.

I'm trying to avoid white though. If you're using white you might as well use Palace Jailer for the Monarch ability.

[Navsi]

I'm trying to avoid white though. If you're using white you might as well use Palace Jailer for the Monarch ability.

Well, Jailer is harder to tutor for, so there's that.

[Brael]

Well, Jailer is harder to tutor for, so there's that.

It does a better job of preserving Monarch status though. Knight has to tap, removing a defender, then you have to spend your mana, so you're down the ability to make another defender.

Thrones advantage is that it doesn't involve putting a bad creature onto the battlefield. Palace Jailer takes away one creature and blocks another. The other one I mentioned, Entourage of Trest blocks two the turn it comes down off a GSZ, and likely does enough damage to kill something too.

[Arianrhod]

Vona, Magaan's Murderer (?) 3WB
Legendary Vampire Knight
Vigilance, lifelink
T, pay 7 life: destroy nonland permanent. Activate on your turn.

Potentially relevant. Probably not, but at least worth bringing to the thread's attention. Anything that repeatedly blows up Jaces or other problematic permanents is noteworthy enough to keep a half an eye on.

[Ulysse95]

Ranging Raptors 2G seems legit too. 2/3 which allows you to do STE effect each time it took damages (pyroclasme for exemple).

And Arguel's blood fast is a legendary enchant for 1B which allows you to draw a card for 1B+2 lifes. When you have 5 or less life, it becomes a legendary land which give black mana or diamond valley effect (sac a creature to gain life equal to it's thoughness)

[Arianrhod]

Ranging Raptors 2G seems legit too. 2/3 which allows you to do STE effect each time it took damages (pyroclasme for exemple).

And Arguel's blood fast is a legendary enchant for 1B which allows you to draw a card for 1B+2 lifes. When you have 5 or less life, it becomes a legendary land which give black mana or diamond valley effect (sac a creature to gain life equal to it's thoughness)

My problem with Ranging Raptors is that we really need our extra ramp to be at the 2-spot, and we really need it to be on-demand. Steve is still the only good enough card for this, imo.

[square_two]

I'm keeping an eye out for enrage stuff that could work with Fiery Confluence. Even against a 1/1, I believe it would be three separate damage triggers. Confluence otherwise is pretty versatile and could work in an aggressive jund build. Generally, enrage sort of is a nonbo with our sacrifice engine - typically can't deal damage to a critter + sac to Therapy/Tower for instance.

[Arianrhod]

Tomorrow night (Friday), starting at 7pm EST and running until midnight, my friend Bryant Cook of TES fame is going to be running a charity stream for hurricane relief -- figured I would plug that here in case anyone is free to watch / donate.

https://www.twitch.tv/bcook3289

[ObligatoryReference]

Carnage Tyrant
Regisaur Alpha
Ranging Raptor

My inner 6 year old wants Dino Fit to be a thing so much :laugh:

[Brael]

My problem with Ranging Raptors is that we really need our extra ramp to be at the 2-spot, and we really need it to be on-demand. Steve is still the only good enough card for this, imo.

I would argue that Nissa, Vastwood Seer is good enough in the 3 slot (especially with the PW rule change), but in general I agree with you. Steve just barely makes the cut in my opinion. I think you generally need a pretty good reason to be using 2 CC ramp over more Deathrite Shamans, at least until you max out on DRS.

[Brael]

I'm keeping an eye out for enrage stuff that could work with Fiery Confluence. Even against a 1/1, I believe it would be three separate damage triggers. Confluence otherwise is pretty versatile and could work in an aggressive jund build. Generally, enrage sort of is a nonbo with our sacrifice engine - typically can't deal damage to a critter + sac to Therapy/Tower for instance.

I'm seeing enrage as just another form of evasion, or perhaps an incentive for the opponent to not attack. I don't expect that it will be all that great for us, but the right card could come along.

[Arianrhod]

I would argue that Nissa, Vastwood Seer is good enough in the 3 slot (especially with the PW rule change), but in general I agree with you. Steve just barely makes the cut in my opinion. I think you generally need a pretty good reason to be using 2 CC ramp over more Deathrite Shamans, at least until you max out on DRS.

Sure, but I don't view Nissa as ramp so much as card advantage. /shrug. Semantics.

I don't view DRS as ramp because it's fragile and unreliable. Sometimes they have one active first. Sometimes there isn't a fetch to eat. It happens. I would much rather play a card that pulls a land out of my deck as a trigger or ability that I have some amount of control over. You don't have much control over Vet, but it's way too powerful not to play -- so for a 'backup' to Vet, I would def like something that, like Steve, I 100% know I'm getting the land from (barring counters/stifles/etc).

[Brael]

DRS is a fantastic source of ramp. Steve changes everything because he's 2 mana. He changes your curve from 1-3-4 to 1-2-4. That's a huge difference because in the first 3 turns you go from 8 mana to spend to 7 mana to spend, and you go from 1 mana spent on ramp to 2. That's the difference between having 5 and 7 mana to advance your board over the first 3 turns. That's a 40% difference in resources. On top of that, when you have excess mana, DRS can convert it into other resources. STE offers no resource conversion, and resource conversion is a huge deal for any viable ramp card.

[Lueseto]

Has someone actually tried running Nissa, Steward of Elements in a BUG shell?? I know there has been some speculation, but with the changes in PW rules now we will be able to run her alongside Nissa, Vital Force which is pretty huge to this deck.

[JackaBo]

I'm keeping an eye out for enrage stuff that could work with Fiery Confluence. Even against a 1/1, I believe it would be three separate damage triggers. Confluence otherwise is pretty versatile and could work in an aggressive jund build. Generally, enrage sort of is a nonbo with our sacrifice engine - typically can't deal damage to a critter + sac to Therapy/Tower for instance.

You can run Desert!

[Echelon]

Alrighty, here goes.

Ranging Raptors: Too conditional, too slow for the ramp slot. We don't play Wood Elves either, now do we? And that card will get you a land for sure.
Arguel's Blood Fast: Pay 1 mana more and you get Phyrexian Arena, which frees up your mana (allowing you to actually play the cards you draw) and costs less life. And then there's Tireless Tracker, which is GSZ-able, able to steal games solo, soaks up just as much mana but does not cost you life.

[crowe_1]

Enrage is a cool mechanic and black/red offer a lot of tools to activate it. Plague Spitter, Crypt Rats, Pestilence effects, Pyroclasm and whatnot. You would have to warp the deck around it a little bit, but it might be feasible to add a couple one-of Enrage dinos as green-sun targets, along with, for example, a trio of Plague Spitters which are not awful on their own.

Might all be Christmas land though. We have wiggle room to play bigger cards with Nic Fit so it's worth trying, but could
be too much trouble for too little value.

[Navsi]

None of the Enrage dinosaurs have triggers that are interesting enough to be useful as of yet. The best Enrage enabler we have available is probably Walking Ballista, which implies either Recruiter or Ranger of Eos, so we're probably in Abzan colours. If there is a pushed green or green/white dinosaur with a solid Enrage trigger then it would potentially be worth looking at, but until that happens I'd be more interested in Regisaur and Carnage Tyrant as straight up beaters as far as stuff from the new set goes.

[Brael]

Has someone actually tried running Nissa, Steward of Elements in a BUG shell?? I know there has been some speculation, but with the changes in PW rules now we will be able to run her alongside Nissa, Vital Force which is pretty huge to this deck.

Not yet. I think she's a key to making BUG work, but figuring all the numbers out is hard. At issue, is the minus ability consistently hitting, and the fact that adding lots of non lands/creatures waters that ability down. It makes it hard to get things right in a deck that plays Therapy and GSZ, and presumably Force of Will if you're going out of your way for blue cards. I think flip walkers are the key to making it work and that it would be more of a superfriends deck. I'm not entirely convinced that Nic Fit is the proper shell... GSZ would be extremely weak, and the flip walkers don't play well with our normal creature base.

[Arianrhod]

https://i.redd.it/vujb91qyhokz.jpg

Annnnnd Vraska is trash. Why do I ever hope for anything good in GB from WotC -_-

[Navsi]

Vraska costs 6, but she's the best 6CMC walker in nonwhite colours. Being two Vindicates is nice. On a clear board she ticks up twice and then ults for lethal unless they have 4+ blockers. 8 loyalty is a lot on the turn she comes down.

6 is however a lot of mana. If I was gonna put a non zenithable six drop in my deck this would probably be it, but whether it's worth playing or not I don't know. Wouldn't run her in white, but elsewhere she's worth consideration at least.

[Arianrhod]

Vraska costs 6, but she's the best 6CMC walker in nonwhite colours. Being two Vindicates is nice. On a clear board she ticks up twice and then ults for lethal unless they have 4+ blockers. 8 loyalty is a lot on the turn she comes down.

6 is however a lot of mana. If I was gonna put a non zenithable six drop in my deck this would probably be it, but whether it's worth playing or not I don't know. Wouldn't run her in white, but elsewhere she's worth consideration at least.

She doesn't kill walkers, which is huge. It's amusing that her -3 hits Deed card types, nice call back -- but it's unfortunate that they didn't push her just a bit more and make it -X: deed for X.

I also don't know that I agree for red. Chandra, Flamecaller is much more powerful at 6 mana, imo.

[Brael]

Vraska costs 6, but she's the best 6CMC walker in nonwhite colours. Being two Vindicates is nice. On a clear board she ticks up twice and then ults for lethal unless they have 4+ blockers. 8 loyalty is a lot on the turn she comes down.

6 is however a lot of mana. If I was gonna put a non zenithable six drop in my deck this would probably be it, but whether it's worth playing or not I don't know. Wouldn't run her in white, but elsewhere she's worth consideration at least.

I agree that she's not horrible, but I think the competition is with Grave Titan. I would rather have Grave Titan than this.


She doesn't kill walkers, which is huge. It's amusing that her -3 hits Deed card types, nice call back -- but it's unfortunate that they didn't push her just a bit more and make it -X: deed for X.

I also don't know that I agree for red. Chandra, Flamecaller is much more powerful at 6 mana, imo.

Chandra is also a third color, which is a bigger deal than most people think.

[Navsi]

She doesn't kill walkers, which is huge. It's amusing that her -3 hits Deed card types, nice call back -- but it's unfortunate that they didn't push her just a bit more and make it -X: deed for X.

I also don't know that I agree for red. Chandra, Flamecaller is much more powerful at 6 mana, imo.

Being able to kill angler and survive is nice. Chandra has the same downside as Nissa - if your opponent kills your walker (Pulse, Council's Judgment, etc) you come out of it with no board position, where Vraska's tokens stick around. 8 loyalty is also a lot - a TNN will have real trouble killing her and can't race her unless you're already low on life.

Not killing walkers is a bit awkward, but her tokens are hard to block and she probably wins the fight against any other walker so it's not the end of the world. Menace is sweet.

[Brael]

Even 3 loyalty after killing something is a lot.

[removedfromgame]

Thing is, how many 6 drops can we afford to run? Is she better than having access to carnage tyrant? Would we run both?

I feel like she can be interesting and i would consider her as a sb card for grindy, fair match ups.

[Echelon]

Thing is, how many 6 drops can we afford to run? Is she better than having access to carnage tyrant? Would we run both?

This.

[Brael]

Thing is, how many 6 drops can we afford to run? Is she better than having access to carnage tyrant? Would we run both?

I feel like she can be interesting and i would consider her as a sb card for grindy, fair match ups.

They would be run in different decks. Vraska is going to be better in something that's creature light, that likely isn't planning to use GSZ. Carnage Tyrant is a more traditional 6 drop.

[Ulysse95]

Hi!

I just went top 8 of a 72 players Eternal WE trial near Paris with a Nyx Fit Rotation deck.

My list:

1 [R] Bayou
1 [] Bojuka Bog
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [TE] Wasteland
2 [UNH] Swamp
4 [UNH] Forest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [] Windswept Heath
1 [] Eternal Witness
1 [] Ramunap Excavator
4 [UD] Academy Rector
4 [] Veteran Explorer
1 [ISD] Curse of Death's Hold
1 [DIS] Dovescape
1 [] Overwhelming Splendor
1 [] Starfield of Nyx
2 [TE] Mirri's Guile
2 [] Pernicious Deed
3 [] Evolutionary Leap
2 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [] Collective Brutality
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [IN] Sterling Grove
SB: 1 [8E] Choke
SB: 1 [] Golgari Charm
SB: 2 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 [] Containment Priest
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 [] Lost Legacy
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

7 rounds I did 5-1-0 + ID

Round 1 against Sneak Show 2/1

Round 2 against a home brew: Morph Deck which was nice by the way 1/1/1 miscount on an attack phase (forgot to count Deat's hold) and scooze just before realising it... I would have won this one and the next one if not for the time's up...

Round 3 against grixis delver 2/0

Round 4 against Burn 2/0

Round 5 against D&T 2/0

Round 6 against SneakShow 2/0

Round 7 ID

TOP 8 against grixis delver from Round 3 0/2
(I didn't get early ramp, he got 3 daze G1 and 3 bolt + delver flip + 2 DRS G2)

First time running this new shell I built in the night.

I'll do an other trial tomorrow, same place.

Ramunap was nice; back of deeds feels good, so strarfield is back too; crop got you mentally stronger (got quick answers to unfair decks, etc..)

My changes:

MD:
- bojuka bog (never used it but never get a match up where usefull but enterring tap was sometimes a problem)
+ cavern of souls

SB:
- 2 carpet
- choke
+2 spitit of labyrinth
+Bojuka Bog

[removedfromgame]

They would be run in different decks. Vraska is going to be better in something that's creature light, that likely isn't planning to use GSZ. Carnage Tyrant is a more traditional 6 drop.

That's likely the most sensible option. I can see her in maybe a bug walkers shell. I want to see how she plays regardless. I feel like her strength lies in however good those 2/2s are.

[Arianrhod]

Played this at Mythic yesterday:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Walking Ballista
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Palace Jailer
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Fatal Push
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Liliana, the Last Hope

1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland

sb::
2 Pulse of Murasa
2 Lingering Souls
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation

Missed on top 8 by 2% breakers after losing a win-and-in in round 5 that might've been a draw-and-in, but I suck at math and also was trying to crush a friend in, so, bleh.

Lost to Grixis Delver -- game one I didn't play around a second copy of Daze when I was on 5 lands because he'd just Brainstorm+shuffled away, so I figured if he had one he'd have gotten rid of it. He revealed at the end of the match that his Brainstorm was 3 lands or else he would've. Game two I boarded poorly and drew poorly and died to a triple Young Pyro draw. Never saw a Deed, Deluge, or Therapy in either game :/

Win to UB Reanimator -- Game one he made an Iona on turn 2 vs my Forest-Vet start, names green. I play white source + StP. Takes me forever to kill him...he's not drawing reanimation, but he draws a bunch of interaction. Ishkanah and Nissa VWS get the job done eventually. Game two he sets up on turn one, but I have a Therapy this time and blind hit 2x Exhume, which bricks him for like two turns, at which point he sets up Archetype of Endurance. I chump wall it for a while courtesy of Eternal Witnesses, and Palace Jailer has me drawing two cards per turn even if it wasn't able to exile anything. He eventually finds an Animate Dead to try to bring back Elesh Norn, but I Murasa her back to his hand in response to the trigger. Ishkanah eventually kills him with drain activations.

Win to Aluren -- He's on the fair plan in game one, which suits me just fine. He ends up having to Force of Will me twice -- once on a Walking Ballista that would've broken up his Strix+Harpy value engine -- which allows me to set up Ishkanah to wall up the board. A few turns later, Sun Titan brings back a Deed, and he dies swiftly from there. I've learned from last month, and I board a lot better this time, plus the general tightening of the list helped a bit, I think. Qasali was invaluable in game two....he makes an Aluren and flashes out Leovold, which I response to with Qasali to nuke it. His next Aluren gets Therapied the following turn because I read him as not being too upset about the Qasali, plus he didn't flash out anything else in response to the Qasali, so I had a hunch he had a backup. His third Aluren was met with Eternal Witness into Qasali into Canonist, blow it up. He never saw a Harpy this game, which could've tripped things up a bit for me...but I also was pressuring his life total and his hand a lot, so, who knows.

Win to TES -- Bryant pointed out that I could've sniped game one as we moved to sideboard, as his Ad Naus's texture was pretty awful - he had exact mana for wish+tendrils, and he needed a Chrome Mox to do it, while I had a Deed sitting in play. Could've popped it in resp to imprint and denied him the win, with him at 2 and me having a Ballista@1 in play. I need to pay more attention to their Ad Nauses and stop checking out beyond how much damage they're taking, I suppose. Anyway, game two consisted of me dropping a Ballista and a Canonist -- Canonist got Echoing Truthed and then he went for it. His Ad Naus wasn't kind to him this time, and he had to stop a bit early because of the threat of the Ballista. He does some shenanigans and ends up being forced to go Goblins because he couldn't get hellbent (he boarded the Tendrils in out of respect for Lost Legacy, which he knows I have a proclivity for playing, as well as to make the deck a bit more bomb-dense vs discard, I presume). Anyway, I sac my Ballista to Tower to make the black I need to Deed his gobbos, and then I finally hit a third land, which lets me play the Kambal in my hand, with him at 2 life...he concedes. Game three I mull to 6, but my six is two lands, surgical, teeg, kambal, canonist. He uses a Petal to get an extra cantrip in on turn one, which I surgical after his draw step -- hit a Petal out of his hand, as well as making his Ad Naus worse. He doesn't have the ability to kill me, which allows me to start deploying the bears. He has 2 removal spells but can't find a third, and the last hatebear standing -- Teeg -- holds down the fort for a win.

Loss to AggroLoam w/Merit Lage -- The first game he sacks into a free win...he has a Chalice on 1 on the play on a mull to 6, which typically doesn't matter...but my hand's texture was one drop heavy, and I didn't know he was on a Chalice deck when I sat down. He followed up with a pretty fast Merit Lage by way of Knight of the Reliquary, and I die one land short of dropping Ishkanah and walling him for 4 turns at least. Game two I have 3 lands in my opener, and I proceed to never draw another land for 12 turns -- we counted, as he had a low pressure hand and ended up Loaming for just as long to find Merit Lage. Nothing to do about variance that extreme.

In retrospect I think I could've drawn in safely, but, like I said, I was trying to crush somebody in, and I wanted to be guaranteed -- the math was such that all of the 9s theoretically had the play, but since everyone else DID play, my opponent and I could've drawn safely. Tiebreakers and standings are not my strong suite. I also shouldn't have had nearly as much trouble with Aggroloam as I did, my draws were pretty unfortunate.

Delirium was basically on the entire day -- it was very, very rare that I ran into situations where I needed to cast a delirious card and didn't have it on, even against Aluren who had Deathrites and was aggressively trying to keep me off of it.

The best card of the deck remains Ishkanah. She is a MASSIVE, megaton payoff, and I do wonder if we are supposed to be playing a lot more of her even in decks that aren't focused on getting delirium -- over the course of a game, by the time you want Ishkanah, you will probably get land-creature-instant-[sorcery/walker/enchantment] just from playing the game.

My current opinion on the deck is that it's fine. I won't go higher than that, but that's mostly because of my personal tastes. It's a very, very reactive / slow version, and that's not really where I want to be. I want something more proactive / broken. So, I"m going to keep brewing and trying to find something that's a bit more my speed, while keeping this version around as my current "default" list for any tournaments I go to. I will note that I am likely going to shave 2 Ballistas and maybe a Traverse -- I think 4 is a bit heavy, I was drawing more Ballistae than I really wanted, delirium enabler or not. The Lilianas might get swapped with something like Grapple with the Past to still give me some extra recursion, while also helping with Delirium and also helping lock in land drops. Lilianas were definitely good at their job, but I think are not exactly right.

I'll close by reiterating that this is a deck that works, which we've overall been in short supply of recently. I still don't entirely understand how Nyx Fit doesn't just clunk up and die to its awkward draws and questionable looking curve, but hey, I'm glad it also seems to be working. We're starting to recover from Top, I think. It's just taking its sweet time for things to line back up.

[Brael]

Was GSZ still good for you with so few targets?

[Arianrhod]

Was GSZ still good for you with so few targets?

Yeah, I never ran into issues with it. I might try to add a little more diversity with updates, since removing 2 Ballistae will open up some creature space, but I had no complaints with what I had. Probably going to go for Scavenging Ooze or Steve for one of them, and maybe a Carnage Tyrant or Siege Rhino for the second. My biggest complaint, really, was the overall "fair" feeling of the deck -- and I tend to link "fair" to "takes forever to win once its stabilize." I definitely value being able to turn the corner quickly as a player -- it's something that is at the center of every deck I've ever played and liked, all the way back to my first legacy deck (Dreadstill), and it's carried through my two most successful Nic Fit builds (Scapewish and Sneak), and my tendencies in modern (Harbinger) and even currently in standard (Scarab God).

I only cite my personal historic data as an anecdote. I really do think that with some minor changes, the deck is basically fine as-played. Swap out two Ballistae for different creatures to taste, swap out the Liliana Last Hopes for /probably/ Grapple with the Pasts but maybe the sideboard Pulse of Murasas? and then call it a day. It's similar to my issue with Salt Fit, which was on the opposite end of the spectrum -- it was all aggression, but it didn't have the midrange/control gameplan, so it made me feel like a merfolk player, and nobody wants to feel like a merfolk player. My complaining doesn't make the deck less fine.

[Dalton!]

What was Salt Fit?

[Arianrhod]

What was Salt Fit?

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emmisary of Trest
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Verdurous Gearhulk

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push

2 Pernicious Deed

1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

sb::
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction

So named because I was pissed off at brewing that night and took the attitude of "well fine, fuck everything, let's just jam VHulk-powered TNNs down their throats with the blue cantrip core."

It could stand to be tuned up a bit, but I did actually throw it together and tested with it a bit, and it does work pretty well. Just, again, not my preferred flavor.