Sinkhole in legacy

[jattra]

Hello guys,
I am thinking what the current chances of Sinkhole in legacy are.
Is it viable to play something like
4x Sinkhole
4x Wasteland
4x Chalice of the Void

to slow down opponent and kill him with a big beater such as Titania, Protector of Argoth (or anything else)?

Why is Hymn to Tourach preferred over Sinkhole today? Hymn is super on turn two/three but not so good later.

Thanks for any ideas.

https://deckbox.org/system/images/mtg/cards/85.jpg

[PirateKing]

Sinkhole is too slow in a world of game winning 1 drops. Even if you're on the play, them playing land into Delver of Secrets or Deathrite Shaman and your next turn is spent casting Sinkhole isn't a good play.
In coordination with other cards, Sinkhole has a place, like monoblack Pox, but I'd rank it after Wasteland and Smallpox in cards I want to cast to get rid of a land.

[H]

Well, the three cards you list have some synergy by way of effect, but certainly not by way of actually getting to cast them.

Successful Chalice decks generally want to run as many Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors they can to maximize a chance to Chalice on 1, turn 1. This is not going to be conducive to playing Sinkhole turn 2.

The other route is to play something like Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond, which is fine, but these cards are card disadvantage, so can sometimes cost you, especially as a late game top-deck.

Sinkhole suffers from fetchlands as well, even though there is a good way to avoid this, at least somewhat by complimenting it with Stifle (which then means you don't really want Chalice).

I think Sinkhole is actually more playable than it is currently being played, but modern Legacy decks are just very good at being mana-effient, meaning that mana denial is a plan that can often fail even with a reasonable draw.

[apple713]

I love sinkhole, its likely the best at what it does, BUT what it does just isn't great. Here is why.

It ONLY destroys lands, which means late game if they have lands its a dead card.
It can be played around with fetchlands
it can be played around with Daze
It has been best played as a tempo card in something like team America where the deck runs stifle, wasteland, tombstalker
If you are playing a land destruction strategy black control decks tend to have trouble closing out games.
It is BB which makes it more difficult to cast in multicolored decks / it weakens mana base
As someone mentioned Legacy has so many efficient 1 drops which make prison / land destruction decks really difficult to win with.
Land destruction strategies will not receive any more support cards from wizards meaning that legacy is not likely to receive something to improve a land destruction strategy in the future. They feel that this strategy is bad for a fun format.


HOWEVER, I haven't nor have I heard of explored possibilities with black vise since it has been unbanned.

[CptHaddock]

You could just play Eva Green (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8220-Deck-Eva-Green-B-g-suicide) which is just Bg suicide aggro.

[square_two]

I think Smallpox is just way better. Gets around fetchlands, kills their T1 Deathrite AND their land, etc.

[jattra]

Thanks for all the input.
I don't like small pox since it destroys my land also.
I like Mox Diamond.
I want to get ahead on mana to be able to cast 4/5 drop bomb.
I was thinking about trinisphere first but it is useless against eldrazi and nic fit.
I do not want to go the control route. I am aiming to get tempo advantage.
The deck should be GB, so it has access to Sylvan Library and a reasonable threats.
Stifle would be great but that is just another color.
Chalice should blank one-drops at least sometimes when it sticks.

True that Daze and fetchlands make Sinkhole less useful.
Is hymn just better?

I admit that double black is problem anyway.

[kirkusjones]

Cross-posting from the shitty card creation thread, but would this be playable in legacy?

Stinkhole :b:
Sorcery
As an additional cost, when you cast Stinkhole, pay 3 life or sacrifice a land.
Destroy target land.

[apple713]

Thanks for all the input.
I don't like small pox since it destroys my land also.
I like Mox Diamond.
I want to get ahead on mana to be able to cast 4/5 drop bomb.
I was thinking about trinisphere first but it is useless against eldrazi and nic fit.
I do not want to go the control route. I am aiming to get tempo advantage.
The deck should be GB, so it has access to Sylvan Library and a reasonable threats.
Stifle would be great but that is just another color.
Chalice should blank one-drops at least sometimes when it sticks.

True that Daze and fetchlands make Sinkhole less useful.
Is hymn just better?

I admit that double black is problem anyway.

maybe you are new to legacy, but there are tons of decks that already exist with your interests. The first that comes to mind is team america. You can play sinkhole in it as I did but the majority prefers hymn. It's tempo based aggro with disruption. HOWEVER, chalice will not fit into a tempo based deck, it is a control card. If you don't want to play control you have to drop chalice of the void. Hymn is much better imo for tempo because it is more likely to hit than not. There are so many blue cards that dig for lands but card advantage is much harder to get back so Hymn is generally better.

[ESG]

Jattra, you could play Mox Diamond to enable Chalice of the Void. Since the proposed deck is BG, you could play Life from the Loam to compensate for what would otherwise be card disadvantage. Loam is synergistic with Wasteland, fetchlands, Mox, and Smallpox. Hymn to Tourach also works in such a deck. I recommend you spend some time reading the Pox thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25713-Primer-Deck-Pox) and the Eva Green thread that CptHaddock posted.

[Jack Miton]

Sinkhole in Legacy costs U and is an instant.

[jattra]

After reading all those comments, I think Sinkhole is not the right card for me.
Thank you for insights.

[Hopo]

Boomerang is an instant-speed Sinkhole that hits other permanents as well.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Just to follow the Stifle/Boomerang train: Boom

On a more serious note, land destruction cards that fit in a Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck include Stone Rain, Ice Storm, Goblin Settler, and maybe Avalanche Riders.

[sdematt]

I think it could be playable, but Stifle and Winter Orb might just be better. Or play all three...

[jattra]

Just to follow the Stifle/Boomerang train: Boom

On a more serious note, land destruction cards that fit in a Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck include Stone Rain, Ice Storm, Goblin Settler, and maybe Avalanche Riders.

I like Ice Storm
The art is simply great

[Noctalor]

Basicly sinkhole is just too slow to work out effectively.
The current legacy is mostly tempo driven, most decks are able to play with one or two lands in play and is not reasonable to skip a turn to destroy a land.
Thinking about the current tier decks you can easily figure out why sinkhole is not that good.
vs eldrazi you are going to destroy a land after it gets 4 mana (and most likely a 3/2,4/4 on board) if you are otd, against bug they are probably going to play a drs turn one, even ramping into a turn one sinkhole is not that good because your opponent is still going to play a two drop that's relevant on the board against you and your empty board, against combo mana denial is usually not that relevant, SnT can ramp the 3 mana it needs to win and storm/reanimator has plenty of instant mana to recover in the combo turn.
The only reason to play such cards is to try to hit hard miracles, the only control deck the format allows, it's not that bad of a strategy, but if that's the plan, going for a recursive land denial such as cricible/loam + ghost quarter is probably going to be more effective.

[ed06288]

would sinkhole be too strong for modern?

[btm10]

Cross-posting from the shitty card creation thread, but would this be playable in legacy?

Stinkhole :b:
Sorcery
As an additional cost, when you cast Stinkhole, pay 3 life or sacrifice a land.
Destroy target land.


Raze has been around for almost 20 years and has seen only fringe play as far as I know. I don't think the added flexibility of Bolting yourself instead of killing a land makes it better

[kirkusjones]

Raze has been around for almost 20 years and has seen only fringe play as far as I know. I don't think the added flexibility of Bolting yourself instead of killing a land makes it better

An excellent point. I completely forgot about raze. What if it was discard a card instead of sac a land or pay 3 life? That would be gross with Life From the Loam, though...

[Noctalor]

Raze has been around for almost 20 years and has seen only fringe play as far as I know. I don't think the added flexibility of Bolting yourself instead of killing a land makes it better

How can you even compare losing a land to losing 3 hp?

[Tormod]

For BB

Hymn > Sinkhole

[Erdvermampfa]

Contrary to the mostly negative assessments people have given here regarding the playability of Sinkhole I would actually argue that, against the background of my experience with playing it recently, it's not as bad as it is suggested in here. A lot of the best decks right now either heavily rely on specific lands to work (Eldrazi & Depths) or require quite some amount of mana to work efficiently (e.g. those 4c goodstuff decks or miracles).

[alastair]

Stifle
Sinkhole
Snapcaster
Orb

It’s still not great, ran tombstalker and dreadnought as win-con.

[Megadeus]

It's not that good. Deathrite go, nice sinkhole you idiot

[Mr. Safety]

Even Wasteland isn't that great in the format anymore. Yes it does work, but on the merit of it being free, only requiring a land drop. Many decks aren't even using the full set. As has been mentioned, the best deck for Sinkhole is Pox, and that because it uses Dark Ritual to accelerate the effect. But even Pox is shying away from Sinkhole, mostly in favor of better 2-drops like Ratchet Bomb and Collective Brutality. It's actually a bummer because they just reprinted Sinkhole in Eternal Masters, making it incredibly more affordable. I snatched up a set and I've only sleaved them up once in Pox before taking them out.

[troopatroop]

Snapcaster Sinkhole seems decent to me.