The current state of Magic

[Barook]

Little true but it's very connected - current state of Magic makes format less diversity since R&D form WotC produce bad designed cards in last few years and do nothing with it. That's why Banned & Restricted list exist - but WotC refuse to take any action to correct mistakes in development. It's scary how long took correct mistake with Terminus and how they correct it - SDT ban, similar like with Vengevines and Survival, the more engines they ban, instead issues, then less diversity and more paper (Grixis Delver) / rock (Czech Pile) / scissors(Chalice based decks) / ok let be Spock also (D&T) will be format instead of multi-dimensional matrix.
R&D is a joke when it comes to B&R management - see Felidar Guardian emergency ban two days after the regular ban announcement. Taking a full year to fix the mess that was DTT and three fucking years of Miracle dominance just because one brave soul put up a "Ban Sensei's Top" sign in front of their HQ (chances are SDT would be still around otherwise) speakes volumes about their format management. Vintage has more fanboys within WotC's working staff, so their format gets more micromanaged than Legacy, simple as that.

Thus I don't buy Aaron Forscythe's recent statement that Legacy is handled by people who actually play the format - the same people who think that DRS prevents the format from being degenerate (what degeneracy does it stop?). The same people who think that another set of "real" duals would ruin the format with 8 copies of duals, despite most decks not even playing 4 copies due to fetchlands, etc. - this is why we can't have nice things.

[kombatkiwi]

R&D is a joke when it comes to B&R management - see Felidar Guardian emergency ban two days after the regular ban announcement. Taking a full year to fix the mess that was DTT and three fucking years of Miracle dominance just because one brave soul put up a "Ban Sensei's Top" sign in front of their HQ (chances are SDT would be still around otherwise) speakes volumes about their format management. Vintage has more fanboys within WotC's working staff, so their format gets more micromanaged than Legacy, simple as that.

Thus I don't buy Aaron Forscythe's recent statement that Legacy is handled by people who actually play the format - the same people who think that DRS prevents the format from being degenerate (what degeneracy does it stop?). The same people who think that another set of "real" duals would ruin the format with 8 copies of duals, despite most decks not even playing 4 copies due to fetchlands, etc. - this is why we can't have nice things.

I think Aaron's statement was that legacy was handled FOR people who actually play the format, in the context of whether Brainstorm should be banned i.e. even if numbers of Brainstorm in top8s or whatever are very high, the majority of current legacy players seem ok with that, so it's fine

[Lemnear]

I think Aaron's statement was that legacy was handled FOR people who actually play the format, in the context of whether Brainstorm should be banned i.e. even if numbers of Brainstorm in top8s or whatever are very high, the majority of current legacy players seem ok with that, so it's fine

The "for the people" Statement ONLY stands somewhat true if it refers to "people who like the cantrip shell which isn't available in any other format and have the cards already". It's blatant bollocks from every other perspective (like in regards to meta, playable non-cantrip options, Management, support, etc) or player (new players, monetary burden of the format, etc)

The whole statement reminds me too much of vintages status of Workshops dominating for 5+ years before WotC essentially passed down the B&R handling to a group of players who still "care". WotC is just waiting for these formats to dissolve naturally due to skyrocketing prices, no reprints, no support and most importantly, them gladly witnessing how stale, horrible meta situations over the span of years discourage players and make them move to Modern

[Whitefaces]

The "for the people" Statement ONLY stands somewhat true if it refers to "people who like the cantrip shell which isn't available in any other format and have the cards already". It's blatant bollocks from every other perspective (like in regards to meta, playable non-cantrip options, Management, support, etc) or player (new players, monetary burden of the format, etc)

The people who strongly dislike the cantrip shell are a very vocal minority in my experience.

[phonics]

The people who strongly dislike the cantrip shell are a very vocal minority in my experience.

I think most people are disgruntled with the cantrip shell because it has evolved into by far the dominant strategy in the format because of all the insane blue creatures they have printed (delver/ snap/ leovold/ tnn etc). Other threats/ answers have gotten efficient enough to slot into the cantrip shell, so much so that it is capable of functioning well with one of the greediest mana bases ever. Many other decks just cant compete with the efficiency and consistency anymore, especially when their efficient threats just go into the cantrip shell and make that deck better at the same time.

[kombatkiwi]

The "for the people" Statement ONLY stands somewhat true if it refers to "people who like the cantrip shell which isn't available in any other format and have the cards already". It's blatant bollocks from every other perspective (like in regards to meta, playable non-cantrip options, Management, support, etc) or player (new players, monetary burden of the format, etc)

The whole statement reminds me too much of vintages status of Workshops dominating for 5+ years before WotC essentially passed down the B&R handling to a group of players who still "care". WotC is just waiting for these formats to dissolve naturally due to skyrocketing prices, no reprints, no support and most importantly, them gladly witnessing how stale, horrible meta situations over the span of years discourage players and make them move to Modern

The 'have the cards already' part is total bullshit, there isn't any banlist change that suddenly makes the format significantly cheaper (unless it's something absurdly drastic like all duals banned)

The arguments for/against "meta" and "playable non-cantrip options" have been hashed out in the BR thread x100
"Management" and "Support" are just empty buzzwords, if you don't define what you mean by this then I can't talk about it


WotC is just waiting for these formats to dissolve naturally due to skyrocketing prices, no reprints
Tell me how a B/R change fixes this?


no support
Like Legacy on the PT, other Team Trio GPs?


most importantly, them gladly witnessing how stale, horrible meta situations over the span of years discourage players and make them move to Modern
Citation needed

I don't even think WotC is monetizing modern properly considering the content of the recent masters sets but that's a little bit off topic

Like I get that your shtick is to be the most cynical motherfucker around but you could at least try and make some sense at the same time

[Lemnear]

"Have the cards already" simply refers to the absurd cost of most blue shells these days which are unreasonable for new people to simply buy in. If WotC claims the format is handled "for the players" they sure ignore the crowd who are priced out from potentially running the decks they actually want to play. I also don't buy that maintaining loopsided metas for 3-4 years which annoy most of the community, deserve the label "for the players". I know enough people who moved to modern during Miracles' prime being annoyed by the meta at it's time. It's anekdotal, i am aware, however dont think any uncommon.

Stores get in trouble for handing out FNM promos for hosting Legacy instead of modern/standard tournaments. That's not how you support a format. Neither by removing Legacy as a PT format for many years.

WotC can ONLY make Legacy less stale via the B&R handling which however takes them years to do unless some hero puts up a sign before their Headquarter. It would be easy for them to end the "BUG format" Legacy suffers through. Monetary issues like previously mentioned would have to be adressed by printings (new and old), but we have turds in charge who think that snow duals would break the format because everyone could run 8 UW duals.

My grief is that the format does not even get supported on local level by WotC, they don't counteract the price spiral which prices out so many players interrested to pick up the format and they make it miserable for the players, by nor adressing severe meta disbalances.

[kinda]

I think Aaron's statement was that legacy was handled FOR people who actually play the format, in the context of whether Brainstorm should be banned i.e. even if numbers of Brainstorm in top8s or whatever are very high, the majority of current legacy players seem ok with that, so it's fine

You’re right sadly. The other formats are handled to maximize long term player base growth (whether they are actually succeeding is another story). Legacy is managed for the people who already play the format, so it’s very light touch.

[apple713]

Wizards could print cantrips for the other colors to compete with brainstorm and that would reduce the number of blue decks or decks splashing blue for brainstorm. It might lead to deck diversity and in turn reduce the cost of blue duals / other duals if solo color decks could experience similar consistency. For example, maybe they print a card like brainstorm for each color but it is better. G - brainstorm, gain 3 life, may only be played in decks with green and colorless cards.

[wonderPreaux]

Wizards could print cantrips for the other colors to compete with brainstorm and that would reduce the number of blue decks or decks splashing blue for brainstorm. It might lead to deck diversity and in turn reduce the cost of blue duals / other duals if solo color decks could experience similar consistency. For example, maybe they print a card like brainstorm for each color but it is better. G - brainstorm, gain 3 life, may only be played in decks with green and colorless cards.

There could also be a case for card manipulation that suits the flavor of a color. Like, Red could have a cantrip like: reveal top 2, add one to hand and mill the other. It would sort of play into that whole faithless looting/cathartic kinda theme. Or you could play up the permanent flickering white theme with some kinda enchantment that triggers a cantripping/scrying effect. It might be better than trying to give every color a Ponder/Brainstorm, because then I think you'd just get decks jamming 6-8 "ponder" and 6-8 "brainstorm" effects.

[Tittliewinks22]

This wouldn't solve all the price issues that legacy/vintage have, but it sure as hell would help.

Ban all reserve list cards in Commander.

[ParkerLewis]

Wizards could print cantrips for the other colors to compete with brainstorm and that would reduce the number of blue decks or decks splashing blue for brainstorm. It might lead to deck diversity and in turn reduce the cost of blue duals / other duals if solo color decks could experience similar consistency. For example, maybe they print a card like brainstorm for each color but it is better. G - brainstorm, gain 3 life, may only be played in decks with green and colorless cards.

That's actually straight on reducing diversity as then every deck is playing Brainstorm. The color pie exists for a reason, straight on breaking it leads to exactly this problem.

Another way to think about it, think about what happened with Mental Misstep. Every deck had access to it and that's an awfully bad situation. Also DRS : one of the big issue with this card is that it's usually being cast by a lands whithout the Forest type.

To sum up, you just don't want every color and deck to have access to the same tools. If a tool is deemed too strong, the only solution is to deal with it via bans, unbans, or new printings.

[Barook]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlTF45Ta2Lg

If shit like this gets distributed, it explains alot why the Quality Manager of WotC was fired and why recent MtG card quality is such a garbage fire.

[kinda]

Per the recently released hasbro annual report, it does looks like their player base growth strategy is working. Source: https://investor.hasbro.com/static-files/151365c7-d90c-4f88-967f-a46f52b62e6e .

"MAGIC: THE GATHERING finished the year strong, as
revenue grew in the fourth quarter, but full-year revenue
declined slightly. Our investments and activities for longterm
growth are taking hold. MAGIC: THE GATHERING
had its best year ever in new player growth and we began
a successful closed beta for our new digital initiative,
MAGIC: THE GATHERING ARENA, launching in 2018."

Other magic mentions:

"Hasbro’s gaming portfolio represents one of our
most significant opportunities. We’ve invested to expand
our advantage by acquiring Backflip Studios, developing
MAGIC: THE GATHERING ARENA and establishing data
analytics and social listening expertise. "

Not really sure what social listening is?

[Lemnear]

a successful closed beta for our new digital initiative,
MAGIC: THE GATHERING ARENA, launching in 2018."

Does it refer to "successfully" ignoring all critique in regards to their online economy?

[ParkerLewis]

Per the recently released hasbro annual report, it does looks like their player base growth strategy is working. Source: https://investor.hasbro.com/static-files/151365c7-d90c-4f88-967f-a46f52b62e6e .

What ? No. I mean, all the experts that seem to be spending about half their free time bitching on this topic are all unanimously clear that WotC knows nothing and is being stupid on each and every decision they're making.

I'm sure our resident experts will provide you with a better explanation on why you might be led to think WoTc strategy is working, and how instead it really doesn't.

[kinda]

Does it refer to "successfully" ignoring all critique in regards to their online economy?

Heh...I believe they may be subtlety acknowledging this by pointing out their investment in “social listening” (second quote I pasted).

[Lemnear]

Heh...I believe they may be subtlety acknowledging this by pointing out their investment in “social listening” (second quote I pasted).

I noticed that passage, but it's a hallow phrase for certain mobile game companies, that pretty much means "calm the angry players down and filter the feedback for positive stuff the devs can show to the bosses".

[Barook]

What ? No. I mean, all the experts that seem to be spending about half their free time bitching on this topic are all unanimously clear that WotC knows nothing and is being stupid on each and every decision they're making.

I'm sure our resident experts will provide you with a better explanation on why you might be led to think WoTc strategy is working, and how instead it really doesn't.
Shareholder gibberish is worthless pile of buzzwords unless it's concrete data with hard numbers, as you can spin every situation, no matter how bad it is, into a positive light. Ask yourself this:

- Why did the revenue decline, despite the latest Un-set performing above expectations (hence the strong Q4 finish), and with WotC pumping out more and more product each year? Are there less people, or people buying less product, or both? And if so, why?
- New player growth? Based on what? Paper, digital, both? Percentage-wise or number-wise? Or did they just double- and tripple-dip existing players with the Arena Beta? How is the Arena Beta counted - based on the number of closed Beta keys given out? Consider that some Chinese chuckefucks grabbed a whole bunch of keys and sell them on Ebay. As it stands, this statement could mean everything.
- If MtG had the biggest player growth ever, shouldn't it also have a new record in player numbers (given that the magical 12 million players number has "stagnated" for the last 5 years :rolleyes:)? Or did a whole bunch of players just quit in the wake of the trash Standard season (which would also explain the revenue decline) and they're sweeping that under the rug? The entire thing just doesn't add up.

[ed06288]

Apparently those game keeper stores in the malls I used to go to as a kid were owned by wotc. Maybe they should have never closed those. Maybe their revenue would be better if they still had these stores.

[Bithlord]

The people who strongly dislike the cantrip shell are a very vocal minority in my experience.

I'm not part of the vocal minority (but, part of the minority, I guess? just not super vocal about it). I'm fine with blue having that power level, I just wish they would make other colors match that level somehow.

The inability of other colors to deal with combo, and the inability of other colors to draw efficiently, seems to enforce the "play blue, or you are doing something wrong" impression of Legacy. I say impression because it's not always accurate, but it is certainly what people see when they look at it from the outside.

[Lemnear]

The inability of other colors to deal with combo, and the inability of other colors to draw efficiently, seems to enforce the "play blue, or you are doing something wrong" impression of Legacy. I say impression because it's not always accurate, but it is certainly what people see when they look at it from the outside.

I think that people with such an idea are ignorant at best, because it's an indirect claim that Resistors, discard and hatebears are unable to adress combo decks. We know that it's far from the truth.

[tescrin]

I think that people with such an idea are ignorant at best, because it's an indirect claim that Resistors, discard and hatebears are unable to adress combo decks. We know that it's far from the truth.

With the necessary caveats:
* Such decks that are missing counterspells are far worse at doing it (Read as: many years of experience playing GBx variants with hatebears
* Such decks would be cremated from the format if an inadequate number of Forces were being run in total

The difference having Force in a deck when going against Elves is gargantuan. The difference of a combo deck respecting your hand on their turn and just jizzing all over the battlefield entirely comes down to counterspells. You can have all the flyers, Jitte, discard, and removal you want, but having a few counterspells will always make it much easier; in part because they tend to jam their combo a turn later.

If they were willing to make Unmask as an Instant; we could see the non-blue midrange decks *maybe* step up a notch; but wizards won't even print instant speed Duress, let alone a free one. It's amazing how 25 years later, one Garfield's only mistakes on the color pie (not understanding card advantage/selection yet and that counterspells are crucial not to lock into a color) and we're still stuck with that decision.

It's not even BS that is the thing, it's that BS *and* Force not only have good synergy, but that they're both fairly necessary (if you want a reliable game against combo.)

I will not hear BS like
"yeah just cast your T2 hatebear against my Storm deck you newb LOL
A deck that could kill you T0 reliably if it weren't for blue decks in the format. Nerf blue!! Newbs with your blue!
Just use Discard on my deck that can play everything from the graveyard! You don't even need blue!"

My
ass.

I played non-blue midrange for like 5 years. I know those combo matchups and while I could win against a subset of them, things like Storm, Dredge, sometimes S&T, and Elves can be giant pains because you literally can't cast your answers before you're dead. What's more? They run protections themselves so if you have to wait until T2 and have no way to guard your hand then you're even more vulnerable.

I know the pain of having to cast a discard, figure out their several lines that screw me with my one card, and hope that they don't topdeck a solution; only to lose before I get a T2 because they have nothing to fear from non-blue.

[Dice_Box]

Filtering is a hell of a drug, it's the difference between a mess of shitty cards and a winning strategy. Case in point, Painter without Top.

[thecrav]

Filtering is a hell of a drug, it's the difference between a mess of shitty cards and a winning strategy. Case in point, Painter without Top.

Workshop decks do okay without filtering >_>

[Namida]

Workshop decks do okay without filtering >_>

From the outside looking in, I think that's because Workshop decks spend a lot of time facing off against decks that have decided to just fill their slots with so much air like Flusterstorm, Red Blasts and Mental Misstep that do nothing against a ton of 2+ mana artifacts that even with the card selection it's hard to just not draw dead cards. Workshop decks also are filled to the brim with ways to start the game with 2+ mana which are not allowed in "normal Magic," so they're able to be more consistent with their starts compared to other formats where you don't get to consistently jump ahead turns into the game to punish people using their first turns spinning their wheels with card filtering as much as you can in Vintage. Workshop is doing as well as it is because it is doing something that is universally agreed to be "too good," against decks that often spend many of their resources begging to lose to that type of strategy.

[rufus]

...It's amazing how 25 years later, one Garfield's only mistakes on the color pie (not understanding card advantage/selection yet and that counterspells are crucial not to lock into a color) and we're still stuck with that decision. ...

Not only that, but WotC is doubling down on it by putting flash creatures into blue as well.

As long as WotC is trying to turn Magic into Hearthstone, we probably won't see too much of it, but there's certainly potential for instant speed interaction that is not not blue and not hard counters.

[morgan_coke]

Not only that, but WotC is doubling down on it by putting flash creatures into blue as well.

As long as WotC is trying to turn Magic into Hearthstone, we probably won't see too much of it, but there's certainly potential for instant speed interaction that is not not blue and not hard counters.

What's more amazing to me than anything else is that blue creatures have power creeped so much that Vendilion Clique is pretty much outclassed at this point.

[Bithlord]

What's more amazing to me than anything else is that blue creatures have power creeped so much that Vendilion Clique is pretty much outclassed at this point.

The rate of blue creature creep relative to other colors has been pretty insane starting around Inistrad (e.g. Delver). It's really odd watching WotC bend over backwards trying to defend how blue just doesn't have *enough* so they need to give it more.

On the filtering note, while I agree that garfield originally missed the mark on counterspells and card advantage being "only blue", it's on WotC now that they have locked in and doubled down on it. They *still* don't understand how good filtering is.

[Dice_Box]

That's not true at all, they understand very much how good it is, that's why you almost never see it in Standard for a reasonable cost. The times they get it wrong they know about it because while we might bitch, the Standard community can both bitch and be heard.

[Bithlord]

That's not true at all, they understand very much how good it is, that's why you almost never see it in Standard for a reasonable cost. The times they get it wrong they know about it because while we might bitch, the Standard community can both bitch and be heard.

I guess that's fair. Instead of elevating other colors to blues power level, they are reducing blues power level (in standard obviously) to the other colors. The problem for us is that this doesn't help us one whit with color power balance.

Every color should get counterspells, and maybe only blue gets unconditional ones? Without breaking the color pie:

Green hard counters creature spells, and has sacrifice this creature counter X-spell type abilities.
Red hard counters artifacts and sorceries.
White Tax counters everything (e.g. mana leak).
Blue hard counters everything, but at a bit higher cost and hard counters sorcery / instants.
Black hard counters planeswalkers and pays life to hard counter everything (e.g. BB, pay 2 life, counter target spell).

Obviously this is just off the cuff, but it seems like counter spelling things, but maybe not everything, could *easily* fit in each color pies justification.

Also, cantriping on spells should be an every color thing, but pure cantrips (e.g. ponder) can stay locked into blue.

[Dice_Box]

I guess that's fair. Instead of elevating other colors to blues power level, they are reducing blues power level (in standard obviously) to the other colors. The problem for us is that this doesn't help us one whit with color power balance.
That's the price of playing in a format that doesn't rotate. Look, I'm vocal about Brainstorm, but my issue is with that card and I comment about the Blue stew, but really my issue is that card. If your going to play Legacy you accept that the past holds mistakes that are not going to be repaired. Is Blue objectively the best colour in the format? Yes. Do you have an issue with that? Well that's on you.

We can dream about what would fix this, but every time Wizards tries to fix a problem in this game they fuck something else up worse. Mental Misstep, Decay, DRS, Cavern of Souls even. I'm not unhappy Cavern exists, but it's a fucking sledgehammer taken to an issue because they didn't want to ban something. DRS being an answer to Lingering Souls still amuses me.

MM was meant to answer Brainstorm... That's its stated reason for existing. You give me choice between Brainstorm being legal or MM, I'll take the status quo. Some things you just have to accept, Blue is best, I accept that, Blue could use a thing here or there taken out of it, I accept that too, we should try and raise everything up and warp this format even more than the last 9 years has? I think that's a harder question, because even with the best intentions Wizards almost always fucks it up.

[kinda]

I don't understand the mental misstep hate and yes I played it in legacy.

[Lemnear]

Such decks that are missing counterspells are far worse at doing it (Read as: many years of experience playing GBx variants with hatebears

That's a slightly different topic. The claim, i disagree with, is that people are pushed into blue, because it provides the only answers to combo, which isn't true. It "only" has the best zero-mana-options for doing so. By itself that's not an issue and neither makes it mandatory to play the color to battle combo by itself. If the same color however also provides the best cardadvantage, filtering, colorfixing, manaacceleration as well as the finest threats and combo enablers of the format, we might notice the critical mass of arguments in favor of running blue. The rabbithole for blue as your decks backbone is far deeper than just FoW. We both know that.

[Bithlord]

I don't understand the mental misstep hate and yes I played it in legacy.

If I recall correctly, Mental Mistep hate had to do with literally every deck (instead of just most decks) having to start with 4X mental misstep. Because, not only was it the best answer to some huge power cards (brainstorm, top, etc) it was also the best answer to itself.

A big problem with their "solutions" to brainstorm (and other 1 drop cards) is that they keep trying to slot them into blue. DRS is an interesting card because it's not blue and has become ubiquitous. But... I'm not sure I hate that. It's certainly not any *more* oppressive than brainstorm is.

[Noctalor]

How long do you guys think legacy is going to last as a paper format?

I truly belive that either the reserved goes away or legacy does in a matter of a few years, we are reaching an unbearable entry fee, currently, no player has a reason to start legacy, but most importantly, a lot of players with limited finances have a good reason to sell out

[morgan_coke]

How long do you guys think legacy is going to last as a paper format?

I truly belive that either the reserved goes away or legacy does in a matter of a few years, we are reaching an unbearable entry fee, currently, no player has a reason to start legacy, but most importantly, a lot of players with limited finances have a good reason to sell out

It will just go the way of paper Vintage, but more, because there are so many more copies of duals/forces than power/AQ.

[Lemnear]

DRS is an interesting card because it's not blue and has become ubiquitous. But... I'm not sure I hate that. It's certainly not any *more* oppressive than brainstorm is.

I think it's not that bold to claim that Deathrite IS a "blue card".


How long do you guys think legacy is going to last as a paper format?

I truly belive that either the reserved goes away or legacy does in a matter of a few years, we are reaching an unbearable entry fee, currently, no player has a reason to start legacy, but most importantly, a lot of players with limited finances have a good reason to sell out

Depends on how you define "last". I think it will inevitably slip into a comatose and degenerative state like Vintage once your manabase alone costs more than 2k. Some people will still love and play it, but that's the ones who have the cards for a decade and never had to bother with the entry fee of buying a deck (not to talk about a cardpool).

My personal believe is, that we crossed the point-of-no-return already due to price memory and how the format is handled in general (4 years of Miracle dominance *cough*). No one is going to pay a grand for a set of LEDs, Mox Diamonds, etc in a stagnant meta of DRS + BlueShell + killoption of choice. Just invest the money into an appartment, buy a PS4 and avoid traveling to events to shake unwashed hands.

[Megadeus]

I think it's not that bold to claim that Deathrite IS a "blue card".



Depends on how you define "last". I think it will inevitably slip into a comatose and degenerative state like Vintage once your manabase alone costs more than 2k. Some people will still love and play it, but that's the ones who have the cards for a decade and never had to bother with the entry fee of buying a deck (not to talk about a cardpool).

My personal believe is, that we crossed the point-of-no-return already due to price memory and how the format is handled in general (4 years of Miracle dominance *cough*). No one is going to pay a grand for a set of LEDs, Mox Diamonds, etc in a stagnant meta of DRS + BlueShell + killoption of choice. Just invest the money into an appartment, buy a PS4 and avoid traveling to events to shake unwashed hands.

I agree with this besides the last point (I love traveling for events it's my favorite thing about the game), but otherwise it seems pretty spot on. I just hate how expensive legacy has gotten. Personally I can afford to keep a deck together, but as a brewer it's much more difficult. I think the prices have both stunted growth and diversity and it is really disappointing. The format has been pretty stale even before the most recent bans and we pretty much predicted how it would shake out after the ban. I know back when prices were more affordable (at least on my standards) I saw now diversity and just more people in general. At this point weeklies outside of the tusks have become the same 20-30 people coming and playing the same decks. And that's from an area that used to be far more diverse with a pool of 60-70+ and half of them having multiple decks.

[Lemnear]

I agree with this besides the last point (I love traveling for events it's my favorite thing about the game), but otherwise it seems pretty spot on.

I do enjoy traveling, i am just not sure i wanna spend it in sweaty halls (partly without air conditioning like GP Lille Day 1), rather than going out and see the city, seaside, etc.

Maybe it's just a personal shift of priorities. I'm old :)


I just hate how expensive legacy has gotten. Personally I can afford to keep a deck together, but as a brewer it's much more difficult.

Brewing and testing is most of the fun if you ask me. Unfortunately the times, where you dropped 50-100 bucks to turn your tempo deck into a midrange one or move from NicFit to Survival for Paper testing or just a few enjoyable evenings at your local store are gone too long. All you can do now is running decks full of basic lands plus slips of paper (given you dont get confused with boardstates that way). Not my definition of fun with the game.

I see already a problem with keeping some decks up to date within the meta shifts in regards to main- and sideboard. It's not that you can move from Grixis to Pile for 50 bucks given the prices of Snapcasters, Leovolds and possibly another Dual for the green splash. Updating my own storm manabase in Paper would require me to drop a grand given the current prices. I am at the point of questioning myself, if I am actually interrested in doing so, or use the money for other things. Edit: Maybe it's more about if I can still justify it.


I think the prices have both stunted growth and diversity and it is really disappointing. The format has been pretty stale even before the most recent bans and we pretty much predicted how it would shake out after the ban.

There are no two opinions in regards to the format being stagnant due to the B&R management, prices (as people cant switch decks that fast/easily due to cost) and lack of new players/ideas (see: your mentioned testing/brewing). Personally i had expected other color combinations than BUgx become viable after SDTs ban, as Decay is no longer mandatory to break the counterbalance lock, but i was obviously wrong. Instead we moved from Miracles vs BUgx to a one-shell format.


I know back when prices were more affordable (at least on my standards) I saw now diversity and just more people in general. At this point weeklies outside of the tusks have become the same 20-30 people coming and playing the same decks. And that's from an area that used to be far more diverse with a pool of 60-70+ and half of them having multiple decks.

It's the effect which was talked about prior in this thread. If no new players enter the format, the community gets older and older people have simply different priorities. I don't have to look further than into a mirror to see a dood, who is unwilling to ride an hour (one way) with publics to the store after work, if I could spend time with Family and friends on the lake or BBQing in the sun instead these days. Working out, Networking for business, etc are all rivaling the game for the time spent. We need new blood to keep the community alive while you are gone abd buisy with other things, so there is still a community left once you have/take your free evening to return to the tables.

[Echelon]

I don't have to look further than into a mirror to see a dood, who is unwilling to ride an hour (one way) with publics to the store after work, if I could spend time with Family and friends on the lake or BBQing in the sun instead these days. Working out, Networking for business, etc are all rivaling the game for the time spent.

Yeah, you're an old fart :laugh:. It's OK, I fall in the same category (as do many of us).

[colo]

I'm an older player myself (nearly in my mid-30s), and I also worry about Legacy's long-term future. I've been playing since 1996, and I have most of Legacy's (potential and actual) card pool in my collection, which I bought for fractions of the amount of money you have to pony up these days to enter the format. I am convinced the only surefire way to keep Legacy alive and attractive is to lower that cost of entry/participation for interested individuals, and the obvious solution to that would be abolishing the reserved list and reprinting all the important stuff. And I'd be 100% OK with that, because I don't give a damn about my collection's "worth" on paper, as I'm intending to play with, and not sell, these cards.

Now, we probably can't expect WotC to do that by themselves, and we probably also won't succeed at coercing them into doing that any time soon. So, given that the problem of supply can't be fixed from that angle, one thing I've been contemplating lately is some kind of "social contract" between oldfarts like me and (potential) newbies who show an active interest to play Legacy. I have a number of cards cards in excess of what is actually needed (more than a playset of some Revised duals, for instance) to play Legacy, and I'm warming up to the idea to offer selling these at a significantly reduced price to people who "pledge" to actively play these cards in the format I happen to love. Since contract law is a lot less fun than Legacy, that'd have to be people who I feel I can trust to honour their pledge - but if it works out, and with that kind of model (maybe combined with mentoring and guidance on how to approach the format) gaining traction, it might be a way for the Legacy community to avoid sharing their fates with Vintage players and their format.

Could anyone of you in a similar situation imagine doing that, too?

[jmlima]

I'm an older player myself (nearly in my mid-30s)...

Shit. I'm a dinosaur.


Now, we probably can't expect WotC to do that by themselves, and we probably also won't succeed at coercing them into doing that any time soon. ...

Anyone have a sign at hand they could put on their doorstep?

[Echelon]

WotC could just start printing boosters full of just duals/fetchlands/staples above a certain pricepoint w/ a slightly different name and a rule that says "May not be in a deck that contains card X". Just a selection of 50-100 cards or so, in an unlimited print run (just make it a continuously available product) and for the reguler few bucks a pack. As time progresses, limit print runs a bit when demand lowers and that's it. Give all the cards the same rarity (probably common) so you can distribute them evenly among packs so we won't have to bother w/ rarity bullshit and the scarcity that might create. Buy 10 packs, get 150 eternal format staples.

For example, Penny Underground Sea could be the same as a regular Underground Sea with the addition "This card may not be in a deck that contains one or more cards named Underground Sea". The same could be done w/ Penny Jace, Penny Tabernacle & Penny FoW.

Original versions keep their collectors value, Penny versions can be used to get into the format cheaply and still be competitively.

Heck, it'd be cool if you as a player could just order the product straight from WotC/Hasbro. A boosterbox a person (or address) per month, to prevent hoarding.

[Bithlord]

WotC could just start printing boosters full of just duals/fetchlands/staples above a certain pricepoint w/ a slightly different name and a rule that says "May not be in a deck that contains card X". Just a selection of 50-100 cards or so, in an unlimited print run (just make it a continuously available product) and for the reguler few bucks a pack. As time progresses, limit print runs a bit when demand lowers and that's it. Give all the cards the same rarity (probably common) so you can distribute them evenly among packs so we won't have to bother w/ rarity bullshit and the scarcity that might create. Buy 10 packs, get 150 eternal format staples.

For example, Penny Underground Sea could be the same as a regular Underground Sea with the addition "This card may not be in a deck that contains one or more cards named Underground Sea". The same could be done w/ Penny Jace, Penny Tabernacle & Penny FoW.

Original versions keep their collectors value, Penny versions can be used to get into the format cheaply and still be competitively.

Heck, it'd be cool if you as a player could just order the product straight from WotC/Hasbro. A boosterbox a person (or address) per month, to prevent hoarding.

This pretty explicitly violates the "spirit" of the reserve list though. If they are going to do that, they are going to release masters edition X.0 - the one where all the mythics are dual lands! and sell it for $10 a pack. And that would STILL dramatically decrease the cost of duals.

If they actively wanted to keep the reserve list, *and* wanted to improve the dual situation there's plenty they could do. They jsut don't want to.

A few hypothetical lands that are in no way violations of the reserve list or spirit, and would still be somewhat passable at lest for specific decks:

Wooded Peak
Land: Forest Mountain
~ enters the battlefield tapped unless it was played from your hand.

Wooded Peak 2.0
Land: Forest Mountain
~ cannot be played if you control four or more lands. [Note: played isn't the same as put into play, so you can still fetch it].

Wooded Peak 3.0
Land: Forest Mountain Dual [new land type!]
~ comes into play tapped unless you control no other Duals.

And, my personal favorite - and can have 25 variations instead of 10:
Treetop Battlefield
Land: Forest
Tap: add {w} or {r}. Treetop Battlefield deals 1 damage to you.

I'm not saying any of these designs are top notch (except the last one), but they are all spaces that could be explored, if wizards really wanted to make lands able to compete with duals. But they don't want to.

[Echelon]

This pretty explicitly violates the "spirit" of the reserve list though.

I don't care, I just want to fix the problem :laugh:

The reserve list isn't sentient, it won't notice a thing.

[Bithlord]

I don't care, I just want to fix the problem :laugh:

The reserve list isn't sentient, it won't notice a thing.

Sure, but if we're willing to go that far, then there's no reason not to just reprint the actual duals as is. I still want a treetop battelfield cycle. Hell, in a khans / Alara style standard they'd probably not even be broken. Would access to three colors, but two fo them causing pain, be a problem in legacy? I don't know, but I do know that I want to find out! :).

[pettdan]

I wonder if WotC partly want to have as high RL prices as possible, because that contributes to setting the expectations in a way for the value of cards that they actually can reprint. Maybe just a little bit true..

[Claymore]

Wizards wants super high RL cards because it forces people out of Legacy. I think you have a point too, super high RL cards point to players "This is what happens if we don't reprint Goyf/Snapcaster every other Master set". So while they take a hit on their collection, they also see that getting other cards/brewing would become impossible.

I think they have to balance how much money they can make with Treetop Battlefield sets, vs how pissed collectors would become and people losing faith in the value of their inked cardboard. I imagine you also lose a ton of faith from vendors (SCG/CFB/local shops) when their Reserved List inventory loses half of its value overnight, since now there are explicit, playable alternatives to duals for Legacy. Not to mention a loss in value for all other RL cards when people see that there are loophopes Wizards might take.

Seems like it would get complicated, and I think Wizards would rather just ignore any sort of risk and just keep chugging away with their "spirit of the list" talk to avoid questions.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I think you hit the nail on the head with your last point. Wizards doesn't need anything from the RL to keep doing what they're doing so why would they risk potential problems with vendors just so that niche formats get the support their communities think they deserve.

[Vissah]

I started playing Legacy about 6 months ago after playing Modern for about 6 years and I have to say that playing Legacy got me interested in playing Magic again. I lost that spark about two years ago and I played just every once in a while.
I have to be honest and say that all this talk about the future of Legacy is sometimes making me regret picking up Legacy because I know it will probably end in a couple years and I have to get back to Modern again to play tournaments and games on a regular basis.
Luckily I did not spend to much money getting into the format because I just love the Dredge life and the only RL card I had to buy was Lion`s Eye Diamond wich I got for a good price with some trading involved but expending into other decks is something I won`t be doing because of the ridiculous price of some of the Duals.
The Legacy scene where I live and in Japan in general is pretty big so I will keep playing Legacy for as long as it keeps firing, I don`t have that much time to play like I used to but atleast I want to have fun when I can play my 1 or 2 tournaments a month :D

[Finn]

I started playing Legacy about 6 months ago after playing Modern for about 6 years and I have to say that playing Legacy got me interested in playing Magic again. I lost that spark about two years ago and I played just every once in a while.
I have to be honest and say that all this talk about the future of Legacy is sometimes making me regret picking up Legacy because I know it will probably end in a couple years and I have to get back to Modern again to play tournaments and games on a regular basis.
Luckily I did not spend to much money getting into the format because I just love the Dredge life and the only RL card I had to buy was Lion`s Eye Diamond wich I got for a good price with some trading involved but expending into other decks is something I won`t be doing because of the ridiculous price of some of the Duals.
The Legacy scene where I live and in Japan in general is pretty big so I will keep playing Legacy for as long as it keeps firing, I don`t have that much time to play like I used to but atleast I want to have fun when I can play my 1 or 2 tournaments a month :D

Hey mate. You made the right move. Legacy may in fact be on a downward slope, but it is a very gentle slope with years of good gameplay still in it. And it is by no means a done deal that Legacy is doomed either. Starcitygames dealt us a big blow by ending their major support for Legacy a couple of years ago. But then their support grew the format to begin with. If they or any other big player comes along and figures the profit of throwing support into Legacy is worth it, there will be a revival. And lots of other stuff can happen too. The malaise the wizards feels toward this format is the result of relatively temporary elements (market forces, staff members, etc.) and can also change.

[Vissah]

Hey mate. You made the right move. Legacy may in fact be on a downward slope, but it is a very gentle slope with years of good gameplay still in it. And it is by no means a done deal that Legacy is doomed either. Starcitygames dealt us a big blow by ending their major support for Legacy a couple of years ago. But then their support grew the format to begin with. If they or any other big player comes along and figures the profit of throwing support into Legacy is worth it, there will be a revival. And lots of other stuff can happen too. The malaise the wizards feels toward this format is the result of relatively temporary elements (market forces, staff members, etc.) and can also change.

I agree with you there and tahnks for the calming words :D

I love playing it and like I said after two years I finally have a lot of fun playing again and I`m always looking forward to play FNM or another tournament. I`m going to play in Eternal Weekend in Yokohama this August, place is like 30 minutes from my house :D
I know about Star City Games because they are the ones that got me interested in starting Legacy because I was always watching their streams. To bad they swotched to Modern most of the time, I understand why but it is still bad.
Anway thanks for the reply and I won`t stop playing Legacy for as long as I can play it here, like I said the Legacy scene is pretty big here so that makes me happy.

[Lord Seth]

I think it's not that bold to claim that Deathrite IS a "blue card".Only in Legacy and Vintage. In Modern and especially Standard, Blue was probably the color it was least affiliated with.

[DarthVicious]

The malaise the wizards feels toward this format is the result of relatively temporary elements (market forces, staff members, etc.) and can also change.

I too greatly enjoy Legacy, and also believe its exaggerated decline to be temporary. Everything waxes and wanes, and in these 'doldrums' I've been enjoying EDH.

Got me a shiny new warrior commander to build with too :)

[Barook]

7 out of 8 decks in the PT were Goblin Chainwhirler decks: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/pro-tour-dominaria-top-8-decklists

We're most likely going to see another Standard ban, since it was a huge part of the field AND had an extremely good conversation rate to Day 2.

The irony is Dominaria was the first set the new Playtest team did work on, exactly to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

[Bithlord]

7 out of 8 decks in the PT were Goblin Chainwhirler decks: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/pro-tour-dominaria-top-8-decklists

We're most likely going to see another Standard ban, since it was a huge part of the field AND had an extremely good conversation rate to Day 2.

The irony is Dominaria was the first set the new Playtest team did work on, exactly to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

At least this time its a heavy red goblin card... :D.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Only in Legacy and Vintage. In Modern and especially Standard, Blue was probably the color it was least affiliated with.

It was unplayable in standard but that’s just me being pedantic

[morgan_coke]

7 out of 8 decks in the PT were Goblin Chainwhirler decks: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/pro-tour-dominaria-top-8-decklists

We're most likely going to see another Standard ban, since it was a huge part of the field AND had an extremely good conversation rate to Day 2.

The irony is Dominaria was the first set the new Playtest team did work on, exactly to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

Why is that not a 2/2? And why does it have First Strike? That's just dumb. Who would have thought with all the bullshit WotC brings on themselves naturally, their downfall would actually be forgetting how to make good magic cards?

[Lord Seth]

It was unplayable in standard but that’s just me being pedanticA sizable number of Junk Rites decks played Deathrite Shaman, actually. Granted, as a 1- or 2-of, but it did see actual Standard play in a major deck.

[Lord Seth]

7 out of 8 decks in the PT were Goblin Chainwhirler decks: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/pro-tour-dominaria-top-8-decklists

We're most likely going to see another Standard ban, since it was a huge part of the field AND had an extremely good conversation rate to Day 2.

The irony is Dominaria was the first set the new Playtest team did work on, exactly to prevent this kind of thing from happening.A ban of Goblin Chainwhirler is pretty unlikely, honestly. Monored/Rakdos Aggro was already a pretty good deck in the format even before Goblin Chainwhirler entered into it. Its high level of play seems to more be a symptom than a cause.

Even if the question shifts to being a ban of something other than Goblin Chainwhirler, rotation is in just a few months and half of the deck rotates out. I don't think we'll be seeing changes as a result.

Of course, Pro Tour results are a pretty lousy way to judge a metagame anyway considering 37.5% of what decided the Top 8 was draft, which has nothing to do with the decks they were playing in the constructed portion. It makes it surprising people use data from it at all when you consider that.

[Barook]

A ban of Goblin Chainwhirler is pretty unlikely, honestly. Monored/Rakdos Aggro was already a pretty good deck in the format even before Goblin Chainwhirler entered into it. Its high level of play seems to more be a symptom than a cause.

Even if the question shifts to being a ban of something other than Goblin Chainwhirler, rotation is in just a few months and half of the deck rotates out. I don't think we'll be seeing changes as a result.

Of course, Pro Tour results are a pretty lousy way to judge a metagame anyway considering 37.5% of what decided the Top 8 was draft, which has nothing to do with the decks they were playing in the constructed portion. It makes it surprising people use data from it at all when you consider that.
They've banned Rampaging Ferocidon and Chainwhirler is arguably a even better, more suppressive card. Question is if WotC can afford another 4 months of shitty Standard?

I really wonder if things would have been different if protection had been still around instead of that garbage "hexproof from X".

[morgan_coke]

They've banned Rampaging Ferocidon and Chainwhirler is arguably a even better, more suppressive card. Question is if WotC can afford another 4 months of shitty Standard?

I really wonder if things would have been different if protection had been still around instead of that garbage "hexproof from X".

Nah, the dino stopped lifegain and had evasion. The whirler is just an undercosted body with an aoe 187.

[Barook]

Of course, Pro Tour results are a pretty lousy way to judge a metagame anyway considering 37.5% of what decided the Top 8 was draft, which has nothing to do with the decks they were playing in the constructed portion. It makes it surprising people use data from it at all when you consider that.
If you only look at the Constructed portion, it still outperformed the field by a significant margin:

https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status/1003285042246963200

[ESG]

rotation is in just a few months and half of the deck rotates out. I don't think we'll be seeing changes as a result.

Agreed. The problem is self-correcting due to the impending rotation. Standard with Dominaria has been very popular, and if anything is dominating, the deck won't be around long, so there's no real incentive for WOTC to ban.

[Barook]

Agreed. The problem is self-correcting due to the impending rotation. Standard with Dominaria has been very popular, and if anything is dominating, the deck won't be around long, so there's no real incentive for WOTC to ban.
But are the 4 months of misery worth it, especially now that it's clearly established that Chainwhirler is the best deck? Popularity can die down very easily in such a meta.

[phonics]

But are the 4 months of misery worth it, especially now that it's clearly established that Chainwhirler is the best deck? Popularity can die down very easily in such a meta.

Well the last 2 years or so of standard has been miserable whats another 4 months?

[Dice_Box]

I think the future of Magic may lay with a sequence of non rotating formats. When Modern becomes too expensive we see something new. Even though they can print a who's who of Modern in a tin and ship it. Like Extended but slower.

[Barook]

I think the future of Magic may lay with a sequence of non rotating formats. When Modern becomes too expensive we see something new. Even though they can print a who's who of Modern in a tin and ship it. Like Extended but slower.
Standard is mainly hold up by official tournament support. The other formats are the stuff people actually want to play, hence e.g. Modern taking over Standard in terms of popularity and EDH being probably the most popular format overall due to all the kitchen table players.

I'm suprised they don't cash in on the Commander/Modern popularity, though. Brawl is a pretty stupid idea born from Arena, given how limited the cardpool is and the fact that it's rotating, aka casual poison. Why don't they make a Modern Commander version, though? It isn't rotating, has a deeper cardpool than Standard and doesn't require all those silly old (Reserve List) cards that cost a fortune. Plus, they could push out even more product that way (EDH precons AND Modern Commander precons).

[Ronald Deuce]

I think the future of Magic may lay with a sequence of non rotating formats. When Modern becomes too expensive we see something new. Even though they can print a who's who of Modern in a tin and ship it. Like Extended but slower.

I actually don't think that'd be a bad thing at all—depending on the execution. In its favor, such a system would provide people entering the game at any point the opportunity to pursue something older without a prohibitive barrier to entry. I worry less that Legacy is dying than that Modern is becoming inaccessible; draft Magic is fun, but there's only so much one can handle while still feeling involved in a game that keeps printing Grizzly Bears. If Standard is the only other way to play, why collect at all?

[Lord Seth]

But are the 4 months of misery worth it, especially now that it's clearly established that Chainwhirler is the best deck? Popularity can die down very easily in such a meta."Chainwhirler" isn't a deck. It's just a card that gets played in some decks. In all honesty, it's not even that impressive of a card, it's just a solid 3-drop so it provides an intersection between R/BR Aggro and BR Midrange, hence it being played in both.

I'm not sure if we'd even have "4 months of misery." The various Standard players I've talked to before this Pro Tour thought the format was in a pretty good place. And it's not as if this deck was an unknown quantity, people were playing it and while it was great, it wasn't dominating anything close to this. So I suspect there was something about the Pro Tour metagame that made it behave better than at the previous events it was being played at.

Of course, its dominance at the Pro Tour may cause a lot of people to pick it up and be annoying on that matter, i.e. not that it's overpowered, but because it's overplayed.

EDIT: Never mind, I didn't see GP Birmingham which actually had a similar-looking Top 8. That said, I really don't think Chainwhirler is the problem, but people are probably just going to see it's a 4-of in the various decks and jump to blaming it rather than the actually more powerful cards. It's just the default 3-drop for lack of other competition, but isn't what really puts the decks over the top, at least not any more than anything else in it.

[thecrav]

I think the future of Magic may lay with a sequence of non rotating formats. When Modern becomes too expensive we see something new. Even though they can print a who's who of Modern in a tin and ship it. Like Extended but slower.

I think it's funny how many people want a new non-rotating format. So we've got a whole 'nother rotation. It's like standard but they applied some kind of extension to it. What could we call it? Something that's been extended would be called... wait! That's it! We'll call it Extended!

[Megadeus]

I think it's funny how many people want a new non-rotating format. So we've got a whole 'nother rotation. It's like standard but they applied some kind of extension to it. What could we call it? Something that's been extended would be called... wait! That's it! We'll call it Extended!

Am I the only one that actually enjoyed extended? I'll admit I didn't play super competitively, but it was just cool before I played legacy to play a bigger standard.

[ESG]

Am I the only one that actually enjoyed extended? I'll admit I didn't play super competitively, but it was just cool before I played legacy to play a bigger standard.

I enjoyed the Extended that predated Legacy. Once WOTC got rid of duals and a truckload of other format staples, the format was a lot worse. My personal view is that nonrotating formats are almost always better than rotating formats. What initially attracted me to Legacy when I came back to the game was that it reminded me of the old Extended.

[MorphBerlin]

I think the future of Magic may lay with a sequence of non rotating formats. When Modern becomes too expensive we see something new. Even though they can print a who's who of Modern in a tin and ship it. Like Extended but slower.

A sequence of non-rotating formats aka rotating formats :laugh:

[Ace/Homebrew]

Am I the only one that actually enjoyed extended? I'll admit I didn't play super competitively, but it was just cool before I played legacy to play a bigger standard.
The 7-year rotation Extended was my favorite format to date. Cards lasted a long time and always had a chance to be reprinted. Mana bases were good but not broken. The top decks were more powerful than Modern decks but not as good as Legacy.

When I was playing, Zoo, Thopter-Depths, Dredge, Hypergenesis, Affinity, All-In-Red, and Elfball were all top strategies.

[Barook]

Am I the only one that actually enjoyed extended? I'll admit I didn't play super competitively, but it was just cool before I played legacy to play a bigger standard.
I loved old Extended. Then Tempest-Onslaught block rotated and it was just only kinda alright. Then the next rotation kicked in three years later which was pretty much the death blow for the format. Then WotC had double down on it and made the list of sets even shorter before completely killing it.

[Moonspell]

Old timer in my late 30s that doesn't play anymore other than the occasional MTGO logon. I feel like legacy is going the way of vintage or it is already that way.

I know this was proposed a long time ago on some other forum but you can have non-rotating formats by having a point rating assigned to cards. So you get a point based spending limit to construct your deck with. For example the spending limit could be 50 points and basic lands cost 0 points with other cards getting a point value from 1-5 points. It gives the flexibility to still use every card ever printed and also the ability to adjust the power level of each card as they can always change its point value.
The idea might work or might be crap just throwing it out there.

I was a huge fan of 100 card singleton and Kaleidoscope on MTGO and I love new competitive formats. Unfortunately the only new format we got recently is brawl which is just 60-card standard commander.

[ChiggyWig]

Old timer in my late 30s that doesn't play anymore other than the occasional MTGO logon. I feel like legacy is going the way of vintage or it is already that way.

I know this was proposed a long time ago on some other forum but you can have non-rotating formats by having a point rating assigned to cards. So you get a point based spending limit to construct your deck with. For example the spending limit could be 50 points and basic lands cost 0 points with other cards getting a point value from 1-5 points. It gives the flexibility to still use every card ever printed and also the ability to adjust the power level of each card as they can always change its point value.
The idea might work or might be crap just throwing it out there.

I was a huge fan of 100 card singleton and Kaleidoscope on MTGO and I love new competitive formats. Unfortunately the only new format we got recently is brawl which is just 60-card standard commander.

One version of what you are describing is called Canadian Highlander (https://canadianhighlander.wordpress.com/intro-to-format/) though as far as I know it is only really popular on the west coast of North America.

[Tittliewinks22]

The current state of magic: Underground Sea buyout.

[Barook]

https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status/1003814116040028160

So Magic has doubled in "size" in the past 5 years, according to the Hasbro CEO - whatever the hell that means, as he hasn't given any specifics and it could be pretty much everything.

[MorphBerlin]

The current state of magic: Underground Sea buyout.

It's every dual that's being bought out

[Lord Seth]

Am I the only one that actually enjoyed extended? I'll admit I didn't play super competitively, but it was just cool before I played legacy to play a bigger standard.At what point was this? I've seen a lot of people say they enjoyed Extended... but the Extended formats they point to as enjoying are almost always just the first few rotations of it. It was later on its its life that Extended lost more and more popularity until they finally just replaced it with Modern (some people blame the switch to the 4-year Extended as the reason it died, but in truth Extended was flailing even before that point, and the 4-year was an attempt to bring its popularity back, which admittedly may have made matters worse).

[Megadeus]

At what point was this? I've seen a lot of people say they enjoyed Extended... but the Extended formats they point to as enjoying are almost always just the first few rotations of it. It was later on its its life that Extended lost more and more popularity until they finally just replaced it with Modern (some people blame the switch to the 4-year Extended as the reason it died, but in truth Extended was flailing even before that point, and the 4-year was an attempt to bring its popularity back, which admittedly may have made matters worse).
2010. I'll admit I was super casual back then, but Warp World was fun to play with

[Hook76]

https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status/1003814116040028160

So Magic has doubled in "size" in the past 5 years, according to the Hasbro CEO - whatever the hell that means, as he hasn't given any specifics and it could be pretty much everything.

Probably referring to the amount of product they make now vs player base. Seems like every week there’s some new money grab product or set being released.

[ThomasDowd]

It's every dual that's being bought out

lol. 1000 dollar underground seas. sick format.

[fluuu]

I dont know if this is the correct site to post this. First of all, excuse my english. I usually play legacy tournaments in my city, I live in a cosmopolitan city and normally i had no problem to play a legacy tournament with 10 players. Last month, this number have decresed, till last wednesday, when we were just three persons and we werent able to play the tournament. I am a little sad, i have a big legacy pool and i can play almost each legacy deck, but this fact make me think about my cards... I am wondering if it could be acceptable to sell a part of my pool, i dont really need money right now but also i dont wanna have a cards in a box cause i have nobody to play... What do u guys think? Any advertisement would be great for me.

Thank you!

[non-inflammable]

Any advertisement would be great for me.

Thank you!

I "advertise" at my LGS that I will make any legacy deck for anyone. Me making decks for people sometimes gets new players to play.
It also helps to bring extra decks and talk to the EDH and Modern players to join as well as maybe allowing proxy cards...

We get from 6-12 players each week and it's always a struggle just to get people to show up.
"I will make you any deck. You just have to show up and play"

[Brainstorm Ape]

Cedric Phillips of SCG fame did some Q&A on reddit. Here are some Eternal-relevant snippets presented without comment.


For each format, what card do you most want to see win a game on coverage?
What cards are you most tired of seeing?

I don't care about what individual cards win a game. I care more about people winning. It's fun to watch players grow from mediocre to good (Ross Merriam, Kevin Jones, Andrew Jessup are good examples).

Watching Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain got old quickly.


If you could unban a card in Modern and a card in Legacy right now, what would they be and why?

Modern = Stoneforge Mystic Legacy = Survival of the Fittest



How do you see the future shaping up for competitive paper pauper? Will SCG host more pauper classics? Maybe an open someday? Will WotC ever give in and finally make it an official format in paper?

I'd love to have a Pauper Open but it has to make financial sense first and foremost. If we can find a way to do that (or guarantee a very large number of attendees), it becomes more realistic.


Can we please, please, please get more Legacy back into our SCG lives? I know the business response to it, but it's not my fault that Legacy is so much better! #Forever12-Post

Legacy is a miserable format to cover with any amount of frequency.
{...}
There’s too much shuffling



Do you believe any changes should be made to the vintage restricted list? If so, what would they be?

Nah Vintage seems sweet.



How long do you think Legacy has as a main event format (dedicated or team trios) on the SCGTour what with key cards like USea approaching $1k?

Not long

[Lord Seth]

It would've been more useful if you posted the link:
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/8qldcr/cedric_phillips_ama_waitwhy_am_i_using_reddit/

[Stevestamopz]

https://i.imgur.com/BsY4WiT.png

Fucking lol.

Cedric wanting to unban Survival is gas.

[H]

It would've been more useful if you posted the link:
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/8qldcr/cedric_phillips_ama_waitwhy_am_i_using_reddit/

Actually I find it far more useful the way he did it. Trying to read Reddit is probably the closest I can come to the experience of having an aneurysm without actually having one.


https://i.imgur.com/BsY4WiT.png

Fucking lol.

Fantastic. The truth hurts, don't invoke it lightly.

[Lord Seth]

Actually I find it far more useful the way he did it. Trying to read Reddit is probably the closest I can come to the experience of having an aneurysm without actually having one.I meant it would have been more useful had the link been posted in addition to the quoted excerpts.

[Claymore]

The wizards tournament reporter software shit the bed at GP Vegas for Modern I assume. 3 hours behind and only finished round 2. They offered a full refund to all main event participants.

[kombatkiwi]

The wizards tournament reporter software shit the bed at GP Vegas for Modern I assume. 3 hours behind and only finished round 2. They offered a full refund to all main event participants.

I don't understand why they can't even get WER to work properly half the time
Forget Arena and MODO, can they really not get 'player A vs player B' to function consistently?

Props to whoever decided on the refund I guess

[morgan_coke]

I think one of the most interesting/underreported things about Arena is just how much it's tanked MODO. In like two months a 4x set of everything on there has dropped almost $10k in value. That's nuts.

[Barook]

I think one of the most interesting/underreported things about Arena is just how much it's tanked MODO. In like two months a 4x set of everything on there has dropped almost $10k in value. That's nuts.
Where do you get those numbers from?

[morgan_coke]

Where do you get those numbers from?

Pete Jahn's MTGO column. He publishes the cost of 4x everything at the end of every one.

[Barook]

Pete Jahn's MTGO column. He publishes the cost of 4x everything at the end of every one.
Just did a quick check - it lost a bit more or than 4k (or 19%) in the last two months, from 21k to 17k, but in February, it was around 19k. While a 19% drop is still heavy, it isn't as dramatic as you stated, unless I'm missing something.

[Megadeus]

Damn last weeks Classic was 6 Brainstorm/Deathrite decks and 2 Moon Chalice decks. This is the state of legacy.

[Lemnear]

Damn last weeks Classic was 6 Brainstorm/Deathrite decks and 2 Moon Chalice decks. This is the state of legacy.

Careful, mate. One might jump in telling you that the major differences of
1) 4x Delver, 3x Pyromancer, 2x TNN (Grixis Delver)
2) 4x Delver, 3x Snapcaster, 2x Leovold (4c)
3) 4x Hierarch, 4x TNN, 3x Leovold (Sultai Leovold)
make them totally different decks, which should not get grouped together, ergo the T8 is totally diverse.

[kinda]

Careful, mate. One might jump in telling you that the major differences of
1) 4x Delver, 3x Pyromancer, 2x TNN (Grixis Delver)
2) 4x Delver, 3x Snapcaster, 2x Leovold (4c)
3) 4x Hierarch, 4x TNN, 3x Leovold (Sultai Leovold)
make them totally different decks, which should not get grouped together, ergo the T8 is totally diverse.

To be fair while they aren't strategically diverse, they are tactically diverse. Per Wikipedia:

"tactics are the actual means used to gain an objective, while strategy is the overall campaign plan, which may involve complex operational patterns, activity, and decision-making that govern tactical execution."

The overall strategy of these decks is roughly to use cantrips to filter between efficient individual threats and protection spells in order to create a beneficial mismatch between your resources and theirs. The tactics (choice of creatures here) is still important, it's just that it's a much different choice than deciding between strategies ie cantrips plus efficient spells or chalice prison.

[Lemnear]

stategically/tactically ... i think you try to differ between the same

[kinda]

stategically/tactically ... i think you try to differ between the same

They're definitely different, the distiction is a pretty common inclusion in a business school strategy class. Another way to explain it is the strategy is "what" you want to accomplish, while the tactics are "how" you will accomplish it. The difference is easier to see in chess than magic if you're bored and want some reading:

https://chessfox.com/the-difference-between-strategy-and-tactics-in-chess/ .

[morgan_coke]

Just did a quick check - it lost a bit more or than 4k (or 19%) in the last two months, from 21k to 17k, but in February, it was around 19k. While a 19% drop is still heavy, it isn't as dramatic as you stated, unless I'm missing something.

Plenty of sets have come out since then. I remember a few years ago when the number was over $28k.

[dsck]

I dont know if this is the correct site to post this. First of all, excuse my english. I usually play legacy tournaments in my city, I live in a cosmopolitan city and normally i had no problem to play a legacy tournament with 10 players. Last month, this number have decresed, till last wednesday, when we were just three persons and we werent able to play the tournament. I am a little sad, i have a big legacy pool and i can play almost each legacy deck, but this fact make me think about my cards... I am wondering if it could be acceptable to sell a part of my pool, i dont really need money right now but also i dont wanna have a cards in a box cause i have nobody to play... What do u guys think? Any advertisement would be great for me.

Thank you!

Thats just normal for summer in terms of mtg legacy tournaments, especially when the player base is older and will spend their time in other activies.

[Barook]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgyeuUFW0AAdKZI.jpg:large

This new controvery is fresh of the press:

150k $ Rochester Draft at PT Minneapolis (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/organized-play/introducing-silver-showcase-2018-06-28)

People on social media are fucking pissed and irritated by this move. Why? Just showing up gives you significantly more money than winning big MtG tournaments or placing well in them. Not only that, but half of the players are basically just in for streaming/playing Hearthstone. Let's not forget to mention that they try to promote the game to the Hearthstone crowd with ancient cards which most people never have a chance to play with thanks to the Reserve List.

This whole thing is so poorly thought-out and bizarre, it's baffling, but then again, it's WotC.

[Lemnear]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgyeuUFW0AAdKZI.jpg:large

This new controvery is fresh of the press:

150k $ Rochester Draft at PT Minneapolis (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/organized-play/introducing-silver-showcase-2018-06-28)

People on social media are fucking pissed and irritated by this move. Why? Just showing up gives you significantly more money than winning big MtG tournaments or placing well in them. Not only that, but half of the players are basically just in for streaming/playing Hearthstone. Let's not forget to mention that they try to promote the game to the Hearthstone crowd with ancient cards which most people never have a chance to play with thanks to the Reserve List.

This whole thing is so poorly thought-out and bizarre, it's baffling, but then again, it's WotC.

Its just one expensive marketing coup disguised as a draft. For me, this has nothing to do with regular Tournaments. It's an ad.

However i agree that choosing stoneage sets for promotion of the current game is outright stupid.

[JBlaze]

It's a cool idea but just bring in Kibler then replace this Amaz dude and Cifka with Kai and LSV. LSV not invited seems strange, maybe he's too busy fucking whoever keeps editing my posts mom

[Brainstorm Ape]

It's just a weird choice by WotC. Given who they're inviting, they clearly see this as an outreach event to grow the playerbase. But choosing Rochester Draft of 93/94 sets is baffling. I love me some old Magic cards, but what do you think the average Hearthstone player is going to think of Magic watching glacially slow games and commentators struggle to explain how banding works? Or ante?

Cool that they're donating all the cards, essentially, to charity though.

[Matsu]

This is another failed cash grab. I will only watch if they play without sleeves.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

This is another failed cash grab. I will only watch if they play without sleeves.

How can it be a cash grab when all the money is going out?

[Barook]

Its just one expensive marketing coup disguised as a draft. For me, this has nothing to do with regular Tournaments. It's an ad.
It is. The choice is still bizarre, though. Wouldn't it make sense to use current formats with recent product to lure in new players (just kidding, Standard is still a shitshow)? How would new players be drawn in by old as shit cards they don't know the appeal? Do they want to cater to the Jihad audience? :really:

Since they have that much money to throw around, they could have also made it an Invitational. At least that would have the cool "Oh shit, I can make my own card!" for new players. But considering how much R&D is already in shambles, maybe it's better that way.

[Matsu]

How can it be a cash grab when all the money is going out?

This is a failed marketing, it is addressed to none. New players cannot afford a Beta draft, even a beta playable card. Old farts already have their Legacy/Vintage/9394 or power cube at home.

So yeah, this is a failed cash grab instead of attracting new players (cheap interesting formats with an high quality online platform) and giving something for old players (multiple easy to access balanced formats). They give you a something you really dont want to touch.

This makes me want to play Hearthstone and after selling one revised Bayou (nah, better, my foil snapcaster), I can easily play for free for the incoming year.

[Megadeus]

I mean, I'll watch it. But it's pretty dumb. I wonder if they have a marked pack and will have a lotus in the draft. I remember the other big flashback draft they had a Zendikar treasures pack that just happened to have I think a USea?

[Matsu]

I mean, I'll watch it. But it's pretty dumb. I wonder if they have a marked pack and will have a lotus in the draft. I remember the other big flashback draft they had a Zendikar treasures pack that just happened to have I think a USea?

I will say yes, probably Kibler or the other Hearthstone player will have it. Just to show "our game is better, look, a common guy can open a BMW, do you have that in other games, now go buy Magic 2019"

[phonics]

I really enjoyed the beta draft they did recently in Las Vegas, but this one is really strange

Such a large prize pool for what is essentially show matches
People there for their achievements and people there because they are hearthstone streamers now
Advertising a game through showing what is basically a completely different game (old school vs modern design)
Splitting the entire bracket over 4 days (the draft and each round on separate days), with the finals on Sunday morning

I wonder what prompted such a change from the other one they did. It did run really late, but that entire tournament was plagued with issues to begin with.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

This is a failed marketing, it is addressed to none. New players cannot afford a Beta draft, even a beta playable card. Old farts already have their Legacy/Vintage/9394 or power cube at home.

So yeah, this is a failed cash grab instead of attracting new players (cheap interesting formats with an high quality online platform) and giving something for old players (multiple easy to access balanced formats). They give you a something you really dont want to touch.

This makes me want to play Hearthstone and after selling one revised Bayou (nah, better, my foil snapcaster), I can easily play for free for the incoming year.
We must not agree on what a cash grab is.

[Lemnear]

Such a large prize pool for what is essentially show matches.

I think that looking at it as a "price pool" for a "tournament" is wrong. They are literally paying thousands of Dollar for everyone who pops up and does MTG promotion by sitting down and playing show matches.

They could just pay everyone 10 grand for playing and call it a day, but that wouldn't work nearly as good in regards to twitch viewers & Co, than diguising this payed promotion as "150$ ROCHESTER DRAFT! LARGEST PRICEPOOL IN HISTORY! SEE BLACK LOTUS & CO IN ACTION! .... AND CHARITY! WOOOOOO!".

In any case, I don't think its worth the buzz. Its, as usual, a braindead marketing gag by WotC, which does not target potentially new players the game needs, but only the ones who already know that MTG and PT Minneapolis even exist. For more than 20 years the company never got that promotion AT MTG EVENTS is pointless and that they have to show presence in non-MTG nerd domains.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Are there any trusted estimates on how much unopened 93/94 product exists?

[Barook]

For those who missed the drama, there's going to be a special Ravnica set that is only sold in the U.S. over Hasbro's website and contains 8 special versions of some planeswalkers and 24 RtRtR packs - for the low, low price of fucking 250$.

More info here: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/guilds-ravnica-packaging-promos-and-more-2018-09-04

Massive outrage on the social media aside (leaving LGS out, the price itself, only being available in the US), Jesper Myfors, the original Magic art director was on point with his commentary which reflects the current state of MtG rather well:

Click me (https://i.redd.it/205uoor19kk11.jpg)

[Matsu]

...

Click me (https://i.redd.it/205uoor19kk11.jpg)

The end is nigh.

[H]

Well, a couple years ago (I don't recall when exactly, since I am getting old) the "push" from Wizards was to "grow" the game. This meant getting new players to play. I believe this was when they made numerous changes, as in, New World Order, simplified Core Sets, playable decks out of boxes, and so on. Well, it worked for a good bit, but at some point plateaued. Necessarily. The game is only going to appeal to a certain number of people, just by virtue of it's very nature.

So, once that happened, it was time to change the growth strategy to what I've heard used in business lingo as "organic growth." That is, less growth by bringing in new customers, but rather, how to get already paying customers to simply buy more. This is not intrinsically bad, as a strategy, in fact, it is very smart and done correctly, very benefecial to the customers. However, Wizard's implementation of it has been atrocious in places. There is good, like the Commander pre-cons, Master's reprints (even if the price point is bad) and probably a couple things I am forgetting. However, such "gimmicks" as this limited edition box, the Buy-a-box fiasco, and "Masterpieces" are simply too transparent a "cash grab."

The failure of Standard's marketability though is going to probably dictate further pushes like this. The "correct" answer to selling more product is in introduce and present greater value at the same price point. I.e. if you want to sell more $4 packs, make it so the perceived value of said pack is greater, since if those packs are not selling, that value is perceived as lower. Introducing higher priced packs (that might have greater Customer Perceived Value) really isn't going to solve the "problem" of the CPV of the $4 packs. I can't imagine how it is that I can deduce that and Wizards can't. But I think they do know that, but dictates from Hasbro corporate likely don't care and are willing to cannibalize (almost) anything to please shareholders.

[Barook]

I can't imagine how it is that I can deduce that and Wizards can't.
Wizards is run by a bunch of moronic idiots. The game would have been alot more successful if it had been run by competent people at the helmet.

Shareholders always demand higher revenue, so WotC is forced to deliver, whether they like it or not. But your analysis is correct - once growth from increasing player numbers vanished, they kept releasing more and more products to the point where it became blatant, like the infamous 1-2-3-4 punch of Eternal Masters - Eldritch Moon - Conspiracy 2 - Kaladesh within four months. Now that pushing out more product doesn't even work anymore (see: revenue loss in 2017), their new strategy is heavily pushing those promo cards.

[H]

Wizards is run by a bunch of moronic idiots. The game would have been alot more successful if it had been run by competent people at the helmet.

Shareholders always demand higher revenue, so WotC is forced to deliver, whether they like it or not. But your analysis is correct - once growth from increasing player numbers vanished, they kept releasing more and more products to the point where it became blatant, like the infamous 1-2-3-4 punch of Eternal Masters - Eldritch Moon - Conspiracy 2 - Kaladesh within four months. Now that pushing out more product doesn't even work anymore (see: revenue loss in 2017), their new strategy is heavily pushing those promo cards.

Right, I mean, we can only hope that this gimmick's failure leads to something better, but in reality, it probably leads to something worse, short term. That's the pit of being a private company. You can't really have long term growth plans, because everything is focused on revenue now. Long term, our best hope would be that Hasbro jettisons Wizards to someone who would take it private, but that is very, very unlikely.

[morgan_coke]

The problem isn't that WotC is trying to turn a profit, it's that they're run by incredibly incompetent dipshits.

[ahg113]

For those who missed the drama, there's going to be a special Ravnica set that is only sold in the U.S. over Hasbro's website and contains 8 special versions of some planeswalkers and 24 RtRtR packs - for the low, low price of fucking 250$.

More info here: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/guilds-ravnica-packaging-promos-and-more-2018-09-04

Massive outrage on the social media aside (leaving LGS out, the price itself, only being available in the US), Jesper Myfors, the original Magic art director was on point with his commentary which reflects the current state of MtG rather well:

Click me (https://i.redd.it/205uoor19kk11.jpg)

What was the gist of the Myfors comment? The link is now obsolete.

[morgan_coke]

What was the gist of the Myfors comment? The link is now obsolete.

That WotC thought about doing that in the past but never did because it's basically taking advantage of players with mental disabilities. Also that the only reason to do it is if you're completely soulless douchebags with no ideas left trying to suck blood from a corpse.

[Misersoneof]

Maro made a blogpost response (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/177808425658/isnt-it-a-little-disingenuous-to-say-that-the) about the fallout of this new Masters Set that I think sums up WOTC's feelings; it's all about the collectors.

This is a product that is not meant for players. After all, if WOTC makes a set that is terrible to draft or a standard season becomes solved then players won't buy the product. By marketing towards "collectors", they don't have to worry about making players happy. This set is simply to recapture some of the hard core collectors that want to have EVERY PROMO that WOTC makes. These collectors are of course mostly after old staples now and don't care about shinny promos that will curl up in a year but hey, it’s worth the experiment right?
I think as Eternal Format enthusiasts we all know that card availability is often pointed to as the problem behind our 'dying formats' and some of us probably place the blame on “collectors” but the blame is on WOTC and the Reserve List. I think if this set sells out (which it probably will) then we are only going to see WOTC double down on making “collectors” happy.

[Lord Seth]

Massive outrage on the social media aside (leaving LGS out, the price itself, only being available in the US), Jesper Myfors, the original Magic art director was on point with his commentary which reflects the current state of MtG rather well:

Click me (https://i.redd.it/205uoor19kk11.jpg)Link doesn't work. It just tells me "If you are looking for an image, it was probably deleted."

[Scott]

Link doesn't work. It just tells me "If you are looking for an image, it was probably deleted."

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10210692947514523&id=1673786715

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmY72TnUUAApyt4.jpg

[Aggro_zombies]

There's no reason not to make collectors happy. Many of them are completionists by nature and so will buy basically anything you put in front of them so long as it is unique in some way.

Also, let's not forget that a lot of the "collectors" aren't really collectors at all, but MTG Finance guys who will buy product like this in bulk, sit on it for a while, and then liquidate it. Not all of them have the bankrolls to buy into the safer old cards, so stuff like this is perfect for them because the full-art walkers will be in demand from casual players and pimpers for years, assuming the planeswalkers themselves stay playable. Whether or not RtRtR turns out to be a dud is irrelevant because you can open the whole box now, move the cards to Standard players, and then just pray your planeswalkers follow the long-term price pattern of the good SDCC planeswalker promos.

The number of "experiments" they've done recently, plus the massive delta between advertising hype and actual product for sets over the past year, has me pretty worried. I'm not usually a pessimist about these things, but it definitely seems like they're flailing a lot more than they have at any time I can remember. It's especially bizarre because a lot of the experiments they're trying now were either left alone for being obviously bad ideas (direct-to-player sets undermine LGS support and slow pack sales as LGSes drop your product for things that will net them more revenue) or were tried and failed in other games (unique promos had issues in the WoW TCG and dominated the competitive scenes in the original L5R).

WotC used to be noteworthy for not doing any of the obvious low-effort cash grabs, and yet here we are. I wonder what went wrong. I imagine the game has shed players from the peak during the growth period of Innistrad-Khans, so either new player acquisition is in trouble or player retention is in trouble. A compelling digital platform would help with both of those but Arena is an ugly Hearthstone ripoff that's late to the marketplace and MTGO continues to be much better for grinders than it is for random casual video gamers. In the interim, it feels like they're trying really hard to milk existing players dry until they can break into new markets with digital.

[Misersoneof]

... WotC used to be noteworthy for not doing any of the obvious low-effort cash grabs, and yet here we are. I wonder what went wrong. I imagine the game has shed players from the peak during the growth period of Innistrad-Khans, so either new player acquisition is in trouble or player retention is in trouble. A compelling digital platform would help with both of those but Arena is an ugly Hearthstone ripoff that's late to the marketplace and MTGO continues to be much better for grinders than it is for random casual video gamers. In the interim, it feels like they're trying really hard to milk existing players dry until they can break into new markets with digital.

This makes a lot of sense. As far as gaming goes, digital is the best way to play any game. Being able to play from your home in your underpants without fear of cheating, fake cards or having your binder stolen makes Arena the perfect place to play. The only people who will still care if WOTC prints physical cards are collectors who still want to be able to own something physical.

[Aggro_zombies]

Eh, I wouldn't go that far. Magic is designed from the ground up to be a physical game. They'd have to strip a lot out of it to get it to the point where it's truly digital-friendly, and then it wouldn't be MtG anymore.

They've shown, basically since the first Duels of the Planeswalkers, that they want the digital side of the house to be an entryway into the physical game. Physical games build communities much more strongly than digital ones do, which increases player retention and gives WotC more to work with from a marketing and product development perspective (EDH is the big example here). There's a real gap for players between "this is a game I play on my phone while I take a shit" and "this is a game where I spend time with my friends." It's in this gap that, for example, pretty much every board game more complex than Settlers of Cataan lives.

I don't think the business model of digital as a gateway drug for paper is necessarily flawed, but I do think that Magic is not a great vehicle for it. There's just too much baggage with the game - too many new cards every year, too much room for interaction and flexibility (instants make the complexity of the game rise exponentially), too many strange rules interactions. The game definitely has a learning curve that is too high for most casual game players.

[phonics]

There's no reason not to make collectors happy. Many of them are completionists by nature and so will buy basically anything you put in front of them so long as it is unique in some way.

Also, let's not forget that a lot of the "collectors" aren't really collectors at all, but MTG Finance guys who will buy product like this in bulk, sit on it for a while, and then liquidate it. Not all of them have the bankrolls to buy into the safer old cards, so stuff like this is perfect for them because the full-art walkers will be in demand from casual players and pimpers for years, assuming the planeswalkers themselves stay playable. Whether or not RtRtR turns out to be a dud is irrelevant because you can open the whole box now, move the cards to Standard players, and then just pray your planeswalkers follow the long-term price pattern of the good SDCC planeswalker promos.

The number of "experiments" they've done recently, plus the massive delta between advertising hype and actual product for sets over the past year, has me pretty worried. I'm not usually a pessimist about these things, but it definitely seems like they're flailing a lot more than they have at any time I can remember. It's especially bizarre because a lot of the experiments they're trying now were either left alone for being obviously bad ideas (direct-to-player sets undermine LGS support and slow pack sales as LGSes drop your product for things that will net them more revenue) or were tried and failed in other games (unique promos had issues in the WoW TCG and dominated the competitive scenes in the original L5R).

WotC used to be noteworthy for not doing any of the obvious low-effort cash grabs, and yet here we are. I wonder what went wrong. I imagine the game has shed players from the peak during the growth period of Innistrad-Khans, so either new player acquisition is in trouble or player retention is in trouble. A compelling digital platform would help with both of those but Arena is an ugly Hearthstone ripoff that's late to the marketplace and MTGO continues to be much better for grinders than it is for random casual video gamers. In the interim, it feels like they're trying really hard to milk existing players dry until they can break into new markets with digital.

I assume it is the same thing that happens with a lot of games where most of the people that spend (lots) of money on the game are whales and those with poor spending habits, which inevitably becomes what the game will then cater to as that is where the bulk of the sales comes from. This in turn further alienates the rest. They are trying to reinvent the game into something more mainstream (NWO, streamlined art direction, supplemental and promotional products, accessible story/ characters) but I think by its nature it is supposed to be a complex game which already puts it at odds with the mainstream. At its extreme it would be like going from Chess into Candyland to make it more mainstream and popular. Hasbro only sees Blizzard printing money with hearthstone and asks 'why arent we doing that?'

[Matsu]

...

The number of "experiments" they've done recently, plus the massive delta between advertising hype and actual product for sets over the past year, has me pretty worried. I'm not usually a pessimist about these things, but it definitely seems like they're flailing a lot more than they have at any time I can remember. It's especially bizarre because a lot of the experiments they're trying now were either left alone for being obviously bad ideas (direct-to-player sets undermine LGS support and slow pack sales as LGSes drop your product for things that will net them more revenue) or were tried and failed in other games (unique promos had issues in the WoW TCG and dominated the competitive scenes in the original L5R).

...

I played L5R CCG for a long period of time after dropping MtG. The differences are most of the Promo Set had a fix price of approx a box and you could share it with friend because clan affiliation. So it was easier to split a promo set. Unfortunately the game does not exist anymore. I think a similar situation happened with WoW TCG.

We will see if MtG will follow a similar path with the player base slowly declining or they will really try to move to Arena, the same way WoW TCG moved to Hearthstone.

[Lemnear]

For those who missed the drama, there's going to be a special Ravnica set that is only sold in the U.S. over Hasbro's website and contains 8 special versions of some planeswalkers and 24 RtRtR packs - for the low, low price of fucking 250$.

More info here: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/guilds-ravnica-packaging-promos-and-more-2018-09-04

Massive outrage on the social media aside (leaving LGS out, the price itself, only being available in the US), Jesper Myfors, the original Magic art director was on point with his commentary which reflects the current state of MtG rather well:

Click me (https://i.redd.it/205uoor19kk11.jpg)

Cool, after the Nexus of Fate (the dumb reshuffling Time Walk) fail, endless US market exclusive cards like the Comic Con promos, they release another limited and somewhat region-exclusive product. Hey, WotC! Why not put chase rares of certain sets ONLY in US boosters at this point?

[rufus]

Cool, after the Nexus of Fate (the dumb reshuffling Time Walk) fail, endless US market exclusive cards like the Comic Con promos, they release another limited and somewhat region-exclusive product. Hey, WotC! Why not put chase rares of certain sets ONLY in US boosters at this point?

It's a little odd to me that this particular cash grab is seeing such a strong reaction compared to the others.

[H]

It's a little odd to me that this particular cash grab is seeing such a strong reaction compared to the others.

I think it's that the Nexus of Fate thing already had people rankled, now this so quickly after builds upon it. That being said, it's always hard to know just will strike people's ire, specifically. Most are very willing to ignore all sorts of things, so it's almost impossible to know just what might transgress the invisible "line."

[Lava Snacks]

6 of the 7 Guilds of Ravnica spoilers today

planeswalkers. PLANESWALKERS. did we mention planeswalkers. you should play with planeswalkers. planeswalkers are awesome

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/774/200/283/636719389343781208.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/773/200/283/636719388083708975.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/775/200/283/636719390484780169.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/781/200/283/636719404295969318.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/782/200/283/636719404837380674.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/783/200/283/636719405288630413.png

[H]

6 of the 7 Guilds of Ravnica spoilers today

planeswalkers. PLANESWALKERS. did we mention planeswalkers. you should play with planeswalkers. planeswalkers are awesome

Umm, well, they are from the Planeswalker Intro packs. So, I mean, yeah, you should play with the Planeswalkers that come in the pack...

[Lord Seth]

It's a little odd to me that this particular cash grab is seeing such a strong reaction compared to the others.Yes, especially because it's so benign. If you think the price point is too high, don't buy it. You can use regular copies of those planeswalkers, they're exactly as functional. I have slightly more sympathy for the complaint that it's only available in the United States, but even there the problem is that you don't have as easy of access to a slightly more premium version of your card that's exactly as functional as a regular version. It's reminding me of the Weird Al song "First World Problems" in how tiny of a complaint it actually is.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree with H that Nexus of Fate had people's nerves raw, since there are legitimate issues with tournament-viable, limited availability cards.

However, I think in this case a lot of the ire could have been avoided if they just called them something other than "Masterpieces". Most players associate Masterpieces with the positive effects of people cracking tons of boxes to get them, which keeps the price of Standard down. I doubt Hasbro will make more than 1000 units of these, so they'll not just be SDCC-rare, but the box gimmick won't affect supply issues at all.

They should have pitched it as, "Here are these special promos for only $250! For $10 more than our usual planeswalker promos, you get a full box! Even if you're not satisfied with your full art walkers, keep the box as our FREE GIFT to you!" but instead they hired the same ad guy who gave us "Masters 25 is the set you've been waiting for!" and now people are mad again.

[rufus]

...
However, I think in this case a lot of the ire could have been avoided if they just called them something other than "Masterpieces". Most players associate Masterpieces with the positive effects of people cracking tons of boxes to get them, which keeps the price of Standard down. I doubt Hasbro will make more than 1000 units of these, so they'll not just be SDCC-rare, but the box gimmick won't affect supply issues at all.
...

I thought WotC marketing had some 'name made by PR committee' for them, and it's others calling them "Masterpieces."

[morgan_coke]

6 of the 7 Guilds of Ravnica spoilers today

planeswalkers. PLANESWALKERS. did we mention planeswalkers. you should play with planeswalkers. planeswalkers are awesome

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/774/200/283/636719389343781208.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/773/200/283/636719388083708975.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/775/200/283/636719390484780169.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/781/200/283/636719404295969318.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/782/200/283/636719404837380674.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/783/200/283/636719405288630413.png

I'll just say it, the Planeswalker pack Ral is more playable than the RtRtR Ral.

[Tylert]

I'll just say it, the Planeswalker pack Ral is more playable than the RtRtR Ral.

It will probably be an all star in EDH. With doubling season it comes into play, draw you seven cards, wrath the board and stays :)

[Barook]

Imagine MtG's World Championship so ill-advertised that most people only became aware of it because Jerry Thompson was sick of WotC's shit and boycotts it now:

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/9hqyav/im_gerry_thompson_a_professional_magic_player_and/

[morgan_coke]

Imagine MtG's World Championship so ill-advertised that most people only became aware of it because Jerry Thompson was sick of WotC's shit and boycotts it now:

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/9hqyav/im_gerry_thompson_a_professional_magic_player_and/

Good for Gerry. But the thing is, he isn't saying anything new here, or bringing new light to already existing issues that have been highlighted dozens of times before. Given what a complete shitshow the MTGA closed Beta was, it's not even like they have anything coming up to look forward to on the horizon.

Goals for open Beta - figure out the 5th card problem --- you mean, literally the entire F2P economy? That's "Heckuva job Brownie" level pathetic.

[Barook]

Way to read the mood and reflecting on your mistakes, WotC:

https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1043190879626973184

I'm gonna grab the popcorn.

https://media.giphy.com/media/pUeXcg80cO8I8/giphy.gif

[morgan_coke]

My two favorite responses so far:

Skyl3lazer 🌹
‏

@Skyl3lazer
1h1 hour ago
More
Replying to @wizards_magic
lol Artifact is gonna start w/ a million dollar pro tour you dorks


and

José Moreira
‏

@heyzeto
52m52 minutes ago
More
Replying to @wizards_magic
nice worlds is today, good news to hear.

I can't wait to see some new ravnica cards beeing played there!

[Lemnear]

Way to read the mood and reflecting on your mistakes, WotC:

https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1043190879626973184

I'm gonna grab the popcorn.

https://media.giphy.com/media/pUeXcg80cO8I8/giphy.gif

As if they were completely unable to comprehend what Gerry said. Holy shit. No response would have been smarter than this "oh, Gerry boycotts? Don't see why, so no need to do anything."

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Gerry Thompson is a whiny baby and I laughed at his demands.

[kinda]

I think it's less incompetence and more of a very clear response from wizards of "No...".

[Brainstorm Ape]

There's plenty of reasons to be angry at WotC; shafting Legacy in a bunch of ways, RtRtR being formulaic shit (they basically stuck RtR in a microwave and called it good), cards looking/feeling like shit, the flood of unnecessary supplemental product...but a bunch of replaceable pro players not getting paid enough? The care just ain't there.

[Barook]

I think the entitlement some pros have to think they deserve to make a living by grinding MtG tournaments is hilarious. That said, WotC is way too stingy with their payouts. And considering they allocated a good chunk of their yearly payouts towards Worlds and then doing a crap job at advertising the biggest MtG event of the year speaks volumes.

[Dice_Box]

You can make more playing a simpler game in your office that Blizzard supports with real prizes and advertisements.

I don't open packs outside of Draft and Limited. I won't crack packs for cards. If Blizzard let me buy singles I don't think I would play Magic anymore.

[morgan_coke]

I think the entitlement some pros have to think they deserve to make a living by grinding MtG tournaments is hilarious. That said, WotC is way too stingy with their payouts. And considering they allocated a good chunk of their yearly payouts towards Worlds and then doing a crap job at advertising the biggest MtG event of the year speaks volumes.

I really can't disagree more with this. Pros should absolutely be able to make a living doing this. Name even one remotely comparable esport (in terms of game popularity) that treats its pro players like this. You can't, because those guys are really just there to convince little Johnny that if he spends an extra $100 on his deck, he can make the dream come true too.

WotC should be promoting the fuck out of their pros for all the same reasons casino's put up big fucking billboards of their big winners: you need success stories to draw in the rubes.

[Barook]

I really can't disagree more with this. Pros should absolutely be able to make a living doing this. Name even one remotely comparable esport (in terms of game popularity) that treats its pro players like this. You can't, because those guys are really just there to convince little Johnny that if he spends an extra $100 on his deck, he can make the dream come true too.

WotC should be promoting the fuck out of their pros for all the same reasons casino's put up big fucking billboards of their big winners: you need success stories to draw in the rubes.
That's the thing - Magic is NOT an esport (by the very virtue of being a physical card game; their digital offerings are a joke) - despite whatever stupid buzzwords the Hasbro CEO is using (considering Dungeons & Dragons is an esport according to him as well). Magic lacks the infrastructure and support to be one. There no teams and big sponsors to support a stable income, not to mention travel costs eating up a good chunk of your potential prize money.

To clarify my previous comment: We're talking about a company here which is so stingy that judges had to sue to get paid. WotC actively discourages this kind of lifestyle with their payouts (remember the #paythepros shitstorm). It isn't meant to make you a living. That's what I see as the entitlement previously mentioned- "I play alot of Magic and I'm kinda good at it, so pay for my bills, Wizards!". That's not how shit works. And WotC's answer to Gerry's protest made it pretty clear that they don't give a fuck and are unwilling to change.

Don't get me wrong: If there are teams and big sponsors that guarantee a stable income and paying for travel costs, a pro player lifestyle is definitely feasible. Right now, it's just a really poor choice - streaming is probably more stable in terms of income (assuming you hit the player numbers and donations).

Totally agree with giving more spotlight to the pros. But WotC seems to have a different idea how to promote pros and their stories - see Maro's comment how the thinks that serial cheaters like Bertoncini are the bad guys required for good storytelling (like in wrestling). They did try to push Reid recently in GP: Reid, but that only worked because Reid is just too much of a nice guy to tell them to fuck off with their unpaid extra workload. It's really a shame they've completely abandoned the Invitational cards. Those were a great way to advertise players - but they got completely cut for money reasons. Is it really that hard to make it online only to save money? Instead, they waste it on disasters like the recent Silver Showcase. :rolleyes:

tl;dr: WotC is a shitty company and their greed, stinginess and incompetence ruins everything.

[ReAnimator]

You all need to read his statement. Pay out's are one point of MANY on there. This is not all about pay out. That is simplifying what he is doing and saying unfairly.

His points are valid.

Also, why isn't worlds using the new cards and a new format? use it to showcase your new exciting product etc, it's such a fucking easy slam dunk and they did it in the worst possible way. Most important tournament of the year, yet no one knows or cares. It's really really easy to make people know and care about such things.


Wotc is good at exactly one thing, and that's making cards, and they could be better at that for sure. They are fucking clown shoes when it comes to literally anything else to do with their product or brand. A shame and shameful.

[Brael]

I think the entitlement some pros have to think they deserve to make a living by grinding MtG tournaments is hilarious. That said, WotC is way too stingy with their payouts. And considering they allocated a good chunk of their yearly payouts towards Worlds and then doing a crap job at advertising the biggest MtG event of the year speaks volumes.

Lets take the flip side of that argument. What if Magic is not meant to support a pro lifestyle. The top players should have other sources of income?

Pro Tours take a week or on site prep, and often another week prior. With 6 PT's per year you're looking at saying these players need to regularly take 12 weeks off of work per year. There's very few jobs out there that allow for that. So you're back at the initial idea that a pro scene requires wages that allow people to be full time pro's.

[Tittliewinks22]

Why hasn't another company come along and started their own magic pro tour scene? Would be pretty epic if WotC got snipped from their own card game due to incompetence. "Oh no it's not 'sanctioned' with DCI...

[Barook]

Why hasn't another company come along and started their own magic pro tour scene? Would be pretty epic if WotC got snipped from their own card game due to incompetence. "Oh no it's not 'sanctioned' with DCI...
For what purpose? Tournaments are a vehicle for WotC to promote their product. So it would have to be Magic-related. SCG is probably the only company who does something like that and they're in cahoots with WotC. And Wizards could probably throw in all kinds of legal stuff to hinder it since it's their brand.

[Megadeus]

It's honestly probably not worth it. Magic doesn't get enough twitch viewers to warrant an outside company to sponsor a huge event with a big pay out. I mean SCG kind of, but they're already invested in the game. Every day when iI get home from the gym magic is like the 5Oth ranked game on twitch on a weekday. I'm sure a weekend can't be that much better even during a major event

Edit: kind of ninja'd

[Zombie]

I wonder how good Netrunner with good casting and a hole cam would be.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Hey man, if the money's not there maybe stop pretending your hobby is your profession and get a real job? The rest of us do.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I wonder how good Netrunner with good casting and a hole cam would be.

Didn't they kill off netrunner?

[Darkenslight]

Didn't they kill off netrunner?

They did...because it wasn't profitable as a Living Card Game.

I worry that Wizards are going the way of Konami, constantly printing more insane and stupidly-powerful cards...whilst not catering to long-time players. Abusing short-termism from Pro chaser and Pro players to keep them in, whilst ignoring the newer players.

[Lord Seth]

Totally agree with giving more spotlight to the pros. But WotC seems to have a different idea how to promote pros and their stories - see Maro's comment how the thinks that serial cheaters like Bertoncini are the bad guys required for good storytelling (like in wrestling).Where did Rosewater say this?

[phonics]

I suspect that the reason MTG will never be as popular as other games is because the player base is too fractured, so many players don't care about limited formats, likewise there are some that only play limited/ standard and dont play eternal formats, not to mention casuals and kitchen table players that dont care about either. If WOTC has an event, they are essentially only 1 format (with the exception of the team events), and everyone that doesnt care about that format just doesn't pay attention to it. Instead of other competitive games where everyone essentially plays the same 'format', their viewership/ fanbase isnt segregated in the same manner.

At the same time though, WOTC is notoriously cheap and they dont seem to know how to market the products they have. They rely heavily on other people marketing for them. In a way it gives off cultish vibes.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I suspect that the reason MTG will never be as popular as other games is because the player base is too fractured, .

It's cost, duder: Let's compare the price of a deck to that of overwatch: one costs hundreds of dollars (thousands for legacy) meanwhile a copy of overwatch costs what, 40 bucks? And you don't have to travel to play? Hrmmmmmmmmm

[Barook]

Where did Rosewater say this?
IIRC, on his blog.

[Zombie]

Didn't they kill off netrunner?

Seems they did. Looking through the news exposed me to L5R and now I'mn going gaga over art in what's probably the prettiest game no one will ever play. Holy shit that game is BEAUTIFUL ;_;

[phonics]

It's cost, duder: Let's compare the price of a deck to that of overwatch: one costs hundreds of dollars (thousands for legacy) meanwhile a copy of overwatch costs what, 40 bucks? And you don't have to travel to play? Hrmmmmmmmmm

Cost does play some of a factor, as competitive paper magic is probably one of the worst EV competitions with everything factored, but there are formats like pauper where you can buy a deck for less that what Overwatch costs, you can even play online in casuals so you don't even pay tournament fees, or you could even make money in tournaments if you wanted to compete and were good at it. This is just one a many different formats that are in the game, one that a fraction of mtg players play or even know about because WOTC barely acknowledges its existence and all of its growth is entirely from the community itself. There are many ways to play MTG for fun and competitively, but everyone that plays overwatch essentially plays the same game. This applies to most popular sports and competitive video games as well.

There is no single format that everyone plays, and no one single format that everyone that plays magic cares about, but WOTC only advertises Standard, Limited and some Modern, leaving all the other formats, both casual and sanctioned, to their own devices. In general I think it factors down to general incompetence from WOTC; say they don't like expensive cards that are cost prohibitive, but do little to keep prices in check because they are afraid to collapse prices, even in formats they have 100% control over like modern. There is little exposure to any other formats outside of Standard, Limited and Modern, they could take the tiniest initiative to just use their twitch channel that essentially sits empty most of the time that to showcase other formats but they choose not to. They only stream events because Rashad Miller was passionate enough to stream games early on, including MTG, by himself on his own time, the super league series only exists because Randy Buehler streamed rotisserie draft from someones garage for fun, before making a vintage super league because he was passionate about that format, and even then they still have to resort to running a patreon to keep it going because WOTC is too cheap to throw them a bone for advertising the game on their channel with some of the best players of all time. None of the relevant content they produce came from their own initiative. When they try to promote the game themselves, we get examples like the Silver Showcase which just further demonstrates how out of touch they are with reality. The game is basically kept alive by nature of it being exceptionally well designed by Richard Garfield, current R&D doesn't really even care about constructed formats anymore, even standard was a complete mess for years, maybe it is a blessing in disguise that WOTC basically keeps their hands off all the other formats. They may like to showcase how great of a community MTG players have, but they do very little to help foster these communities, especially if it doesn't directly benefit their bottom line (product sales).

[Barook]

Cost does play some of a factor, as competitive paper magic is probably one of the worst EV competitions with everything factored, but there are formats like pauper where you can buy a deck for less that what Overwatch costs, you can even play online in casuals so you don't even pay tournament fees, or you could even make money in tournaments if you wanted to compete and were good at it. This is just one a many different formats that are in the game, one that a fraction of mtg players play or even know about because WOTC barely acknowledges its existence and all of its growth is entirely from the community itself. There are many ways to play MTG for fun and competitively, but everyone that plays overwatch essentially plays the same game. This applies to most popular sports and competitive video games as well.

There is no single format that everyone plays, and no one single format that everyone that plays magic cares about, but WOTC only advertises Standard, Limited and some Modern, leaving all the other formats, both casual and sanctioned, to their own devices. In general I think it factors down to general incompetence from WOTC; say they don't like expensive cards that are cost prohibitive, but do little to keep prices in check because they are afraid to collapse prices, even in formats they have 100% control over like modern. There is little exposure to any other formats outside of Standard, Limited and Modern, they could take the tiniest initiative to just use their twitch channel that essentially sits empty most of the time that to showcase other formats but they choose not to. They only stream events because Rashad Miller was passionate enough to stream games early on, including MTG, by himself on his own time, the super league series only exists because Randy Buehler streamed rotisserie draft from someones garage for fun, before making a vintage super league because he was passionate about that format, and even then they still have to resort to running a patreon to keep it going because WOTC is too cheap to throw them a bone for advertising the game on their channel with some of the best players of all time. None of the relevant content they produce came from their own initiative. When they try to promote the game themselves, we get examples like the Silver Showcase which just further demonstrates how out of touch they are with reality. The game is basically kept alive by nature of it being exceptionally well designed by Richard Garfield, current R&D doesn't really even care about constructed formats anymore, even standard was a complete mess for years, maybe it is a blessing in disguise that WOTC basically keeps their hands off all the other formats. They may like to showcase how great of a community MTG players have, but they do very little to help foster these communities, especially if it doesn't directly benefit their bottom line (product sales).
Well said.

As the bolded part, a huge problem for the game is that WotC prioritizes collectors over actual players (see: RL, upshifting high demand reprint cards to mythic solely for secondary market price reasons), even though they don't openly admit it. Players vs. Collectors and Paper vs. Digital are two conflicts that hold the game back as a whole.

[morgan_coke]

I wonder how popular MTG would be as an esport if WotC had ever actually released and supported a competent digital game. Or if they knew how to market and whatnot.

If you really sit down to think about it, the amount of success they've had in spite of themselves is really pretty mind blowing.

[Lord Seth]

IIRC, on his blog.A search for Bertoncini on his blog doesn't turn up anything. Granted, I've had it miss things before in searching, but I would like to see where he said this to confirm this isn't some kind of urban legend.


When they try to promote the game themselves, we get examples like the Silver Showcase which just further demonstrates how out of touch they are with reality.The Silver Showcase was almost comical in how badly thought out it was, especially considering how much money they sunk into it.

[Lemnear]

IIRC, on his blog.

I think I remember something like this too. No surprise though, coming from MaRo, who also claimed that Legacy players suck at card evaluation and deckbuilding, despite constant bannings prove otherwise.

[rufus]

I wonder how popular MTG would be as an esport if WotC had ever actually released and supported a competent digital game. ...

In their defense, I thing the paper game relies heavily on spatial intuition and awareness, so that's a bigger ask than most people think.

[whienot]

A search for Bertoncini on his blog doesn't turn up anything. Granted, I've had it miss things before in searching, but I would like to see where he said this to confirm this isn't some kind of urban legend.

Rosewater was talking about Mike Long, not Bertoncini. But the point stands regarding storytelling.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/hedonism-attitude-2006-08-14-0

Ctrl+F: Mike Long.

[Barook]

Rosewater was talking about Mike Long, not Bertoncini. But the point stands regarding storytelling.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/hedonism-attitude-2006-08-14-0

Ctrl+F: Mike Long.
Thanks. I probably mixed it up when the argument got reheated during the return of Bertoncini.


No surprise though, coming from MaRo, who also claimed that Legacy players suck at card evaluation and deckbuilding, despite constant bannings prove otherwise.
He did? The shittiest comments related to Legacy from Maro I can remember are

1) replacement duals that get around the RL would break Legacy (because two playsets would do so much when most decks don't even run one :rolleyes: )
2) TNN's bullshit ability is well within the color pie since blue is the best color for non-color protection (factually wrong).

[rufus]

...
He did? The shittiest comments related to Legacy from Maro I can remember are
...

When people make a big fuss about what Maro says, I always wonder whether I'm too cynical for thinking he's mostly some kind of PR apologist.

[Bithlord]

2) TNN's bullshit ability is well within the color pie since blue is the best color for non-color protection (factually wrong).

This is a bit wonky, because they made an active decision at one point to make blue the best color for non-color protection because "blue doesn't have enough keywords, despite having the two BEST keywords". then, they released some good non-color protection cards and said "oh, shit, this is way too strong".

[Bithlord]

Pro Tours take a week or on site prep, and often another week prior.

Is that really true? I mean, yes, it takes that much to get the practice required to win one -- but it's not like they they are required by WotCto show up a week early. If the "pros" make a choice to prioritize winning magic over other aspects of their life, that's fine. But that doesn't make it incumbent on WotC to pay to support that choice.

[Lemnear]

He did? The shittiest comments related to Legacy from Maro I can remember are

1) replacement duals that get around the RL would break Legacy (because two playsets would do so much when most decks don't even run one :rolleyes: )
2) TNN's bullshit ability is well within the color pie since blue is the best color for non-color protection (factually wrong).

Yeah he did. While I have lost the original link, I still have the question and MaRos insulting response:


Question:
"Wouldn't Modern regulate itself much better if it had more powerful police cards like Legacy does?"

Mark Rosewater:
"The thing that helps Legacy is not “police cards”. It’s that we don’t shine a major spotlight on it and get some of the best deck builders in the world to try to break it once a year."


He imo indicates, that them not giving a shit about legacy is the reason "good deckbuilders" do not bother with the format in general, which means that he thinks that Legacy deckbuilders are inferior to Modern deckbuilders. If Legacy Deckbuilders would be unable to break the format, why SDT, TC, DTT, DRS & Co have been banned?

[Dice_Box]

Yeah he did. While I have lost the original link, I still have the question and MaRos insulting response:


Question:
"Wouldn't Modern regulate itself much better if it had more powerful police cards like Legacy does?"

Mark Rosewater:
"The thing that helps Legacy is not “police cards”. It’s that we don’t shine a major spotlight on it and get some of the best deck builders in the world to try to break it once a year."


He imo indicates, that them not giving a shit about legacy is the reason "good deckbuilders" do not bother with the format in general, which means that he thinks that Legacy deckbuilders are inferior to Modern deckbuilders. If Legacy Deckbuilders would be unable to break the format, why SDT, TC, DTT, DRS & Co have been banned?
The thing here is that its counter to what they do in printing. I dont know the address to the archive of TMD, but there is a black and white post where its said Containment Priest was made to help Vintage. If the idea is not to depend on "Police Cards" in these formats why make them with the formats in mind?

It just makes sense that as your format grows, the issues you have and the answers to them will be focused. Also Modern is a format built on this same idea. Stony Silence is the perfect example of this very concept.

[H]

He imo indicates, that them not giving a shit about legacy is the reason "good deckbuilders" do not bother with the format in general, which means that he thinks that Legacy deckbuilders are inferior to Modern deckbuilders. If Legacy Deckbuilders would be unable to break the format, why SDT, TC, DTT, DRS & Co have been banned?

Well, it's difficult for me to defend MaRo ever, mainly because I think he isn't very good at his job and most of his ideas are antithetical to whatever "good Magic" would be, but I think his statement, while vaguely insulting, isn't really what you think it is and isn't what it seems to many of us at first glance. While he is wrong about one thing, he isn't actually wrong about the others.


The thing that helps Legacy is not “police cards”.

This is most probably an actual fact. It isn't "police cards" that keep many things in check, it's the power-level/consistency level of a number of divergent strategies. Chalice of a Void is not a "police card" it's a powerful lock-piece, that exploits mana advantage to leverage higher CMC cards than would usually be "good enough." Containment Priest is far closer to what could be called a police card and while it does help some decks in some matchups, it and it's ilk isn't what keeps the Legacy metagame in check.


It’s that we don’t shine a major spotlight on it and get some of the best deck builders in the world to try to break it once a year.

These actually are facts: they don't shine much of a spotlight on Legacy and it's true "some of the best deck builders in the world" do not look at Legacy. The key word there is "some." It's not a stretch to understand that, for example, Josh Utter-Leyton and LSV are better than average deck-builders. And when they do focus on Legacy and Vintage, they do usually do pretty well. That's not surprising. What isn't a fact: that either of these things explains the Legacy metagame. It doesn't.

So, his statement contains facts and truths, but draws the knee-jerk, incorrect conclusion based off those. A cabal of the greatest deckbuilders in the world can't break a current Legacy metagame, because the format is too deep, too explored and too homogeneous to allow for statistical outliers to be spontaneously discovered. You can, however, most assuredly discover a playable niche, that can exploit a metagame weakness, just as that Channel Fireball team did with that Death's Shadow deck. But as the numbers seem to have shown, the whole is usually quickly patched up.

[morgan_coke]

The format is permanently solved barring a mass banning or a whole new vein of cards being printed. Not sure what MaRo thinks having a Legacy GP would prove as far as identifying the best deckbuilding.

A better arrangement of the last 16 or 20 cards after you've put Blue Shell + Delver into a deck?

A more optimal arrangement of hatebears in DnT?

A way to make Eldrazi super-consistent?

A dredge deck that doesn't fold to GY/Dredge hate? (Lingering Chill looks to have really reduced the amount of effective Dredge hate out there)

There's a reason we run between 55-75% Brainstorm/Blue Shell in top 8's every year. You've got your main axis of attack - cantrips. Then you've got your Cantrip Predator decks - Chalice decks and hatebear decks. Then you've got your tournament filler - Burn, Nic Fit, Dredge, Belcher, etc, that can take down an event, but usually don't because of consistency or speed or limited angles of attack issues.

[kinda]

The format is permanently solved barring a mass banning or a whole new vein of cards being printed. Not sure what MaRo thinks having a Legacy GP would prove as far as identifying the best deckbuilding.

A better arrangement of the last 16 or 20 cards after you've put Blue Shell + Delver into a deck?

A more optimal arrangement of hatebears in DnT?

A way to make Eldrazi super-consistent?

A dredge deck that doesn't fold to GY/Dredge hate? (Lingering Chill looks to have really reduced the amount of effective Dredge hate out there)

There's a reason we run between 55-75% Brainstorm/Blue Shell in top 8's every year. You've got your main axis of attack - cantrips. Then you've got your Cantrip Predator decks - Chalice decks and hatebear decks. Then you've got your tournament filler - Burn, Nic Fit, Dredge, Belcher, etc, that can take down an event, but usually don't because of consistency or speed or limited angles of attack issues.

This is why we need the pros to build new decks for us. (We just had a legacy pro tour which brought nothing new right?)

[Megadeus]

This is why we need the pros to build new decks for us. (We just had a legacy pro tour which brought nothing new right?)

Deaths Shadow isn't exactly a new concept, I think that the strategy was validated more or less at this event though. I think one thing about legacy is that there are incredibly powerful archetypes that could be T1 if they had more exposure. For example I always thought lands was one of the best decks in the format, then when the RG Hyper aggressive dark depths build came out it suddenly saw a lot more play and was viewed as a "real" deck. Granted stage printing and legend rule change helped a lot, but iI think even the old 3 and 4 color versions were really good just underplayed.

[Barook]

With all the drama going about the WC and Gerry Thompson, this flew more or less under the radar for many people:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/experimentation-2018-09-21

Amazon gets supply directly from WotC from now on. With Amazon undercutting the competition like madmen AND the most recent price increase for distributors on September 1st (IIRC, it was like 5 bucks per box), LGS are in a rough treat as they have to pay more for boxes while having direct competition from Amazon (that aren't just store resellers).

[Humphrey]

i assume wotc wants to go as digital as possible and wants ppl to play arena drafts and not in lgs. they might announce the end of fnm support next year.

[Lord Seth]

Rosewater was talking about Mike Long, not Bertoncini. But the point stands regarding storytelling.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/hedonism-attitude-2006-08-14-0

Ctrl+F: Mike Long.Ah, that would make more sense, I know he was a longtime defender of Mike Long.

The odd thing is that if his argument is correct--that Mike Long was not actually a cheater and Wizards of the Coast built up the idea he was some kind of villain to make him a heel--then Wizards of the Coast looks absolutely horrible for leaving everyone with the impression he was a cheater when he wasn't. So either his statement is really stupid because Mike Long actually was a cheater, or it's really stupid because it says Wizards of the Coast allowed the accusations of cheating against an innocent person to become pervasive because of some weird idea it would help PR.


2) TNN's bullshit ability is well within the color pie since blue is the best color for non-color protection (factually wrong).In fairness, he at least noted he didn't like the card and didn't think it should have been printed.

[Megadeus]

Ah, that would make more sense, I know he was a longtime defender of Mike Long.

The odd thing is that if his argument is correct--that Mike Long was not actually a cheater and Wizards of the Coast built up the idea he was some kind of villain to make him a heel--then Wizards of the Coast looks absolutely horrible for leaving everyone with the impression he was a cheater when he wasn't. So either his statement is really stupid because Mike Long actually was a cheater, or it's really stupid because it says Wizards of the Coast allowed the accusations of cheating against an innocent person to become pervasive because of some weird idea it would help PR.

In fairness, he at least noted he didn't like the card and didn't think it should have been printed.

I think he was saying Long despitedespite his cheating is still one of the most influential players from early pro tour

[Lord Seth]

I think he was saying Long despitedespite his cheating is still one of the most influential players from early pro tourI don't think so, as he made a point to note Long's lack of disqualifications, plus I know Rosewater has said in the past he doesn't think Mike Long was a cheater.

[morgan_coke]

With all the drama going about the WC and Gerry Thompson, this flew more or less under the radar for many people:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/experimentation-2018-09-21

Amazon gets supply directly from WotC from now on. With Amazon undercutting the competition like madmen AND the most recent price increase for distributors on September 1st (IIRC, it was like 5 bucks per box), LGS are in a rough treat as they have to pay more for boxes while having direct competition from Amazon (that aren't just store resellers).

Between that and the new "Masterpieces" set skipping LGS's entirely, there's really no other way to interpret this except as an attack on game stores. Which is just yet another bizarre fucking decision by WotC. Like, Arena still sucks a lot, copying Hearthstone's interface doesn't really work that great when you can have dozens or hundreds of permanents on the board instead of just seven.

I mean, if you ever spent a lot of time on the Beta forums, the stuff from the game devs before they finally got disappeared off of them was beyond cuckoo. Three of them had never played Magic before and were trying to actively re-invent the game with tweaks and game modes. This isn't speculation, this is shit they said in the forums.

This, whatever the hell they're doing with digital, the card stock issues.. the upcoming release of Artifact... they just need to clean fucking house at that place. Hard.

[phonics]

Between that and the new "Masterpieces" set skipping LGS's entirely, there's really no other way to interpret this except as an attack on game stores. Which is just yet another bizarre fucking decision by WotC. Like, Arena still sucks a lot, copying Hearthstone's interface doesn't really work that great when you can have dozens or hundreds of permanents on the board instead of just seven.

I mean, if you ever spent a lot of time on the Beta forums, the stuff from the game devs before they finally got disappeared off of them was beyond cuckoo. Three of them had never played Magic before and were trying to actively re-invent the game with tweaks and game modes. This isn't speculation, this is shit they said in the forums.

This, whatever the hell they're doing with digital, the card stock issues.. the upcoming release of Artifact... they just need to clean fucking house at that place. Hard.

From my understanding (talking the manager of the largest lgs in my area), essentially all of the profits comes from selling supplementary stuff such as storage boxes, playmats, sleeves and dice. Everything else basically just exists to facilitate traffic and have people purchase these things. Since lgs apparently arent making much from product sales anyways, it is WOTC's rationale that whatever harm this does to the lgs in lost product sales will be gained by 'new players' taking up the game because it is available in more mainstream establishments.

With that said, I am doubtful that MTG is the type of game that would receive much adoption (if any) from simply being available in places like Amazon and Walmart. Who is going to see the product listed or sold at these places and impulse buy it and then actually go through with finding a lgs or local community to learn this stuff, especially when there are other shinier toys available that have none of that commitment required. Their model is probably the closest thing you can get to printing money but they are still finding ways to screw it up.

[Bithlord]

From my understanding (talking the manager of the largest lgs in my area), essentially all of the profits comes from selling supplementary stuff such as storage boxes, playmats, sleeves and dice. Everything else basically just exists to facilitate traffic and have people purchase these things. Since lgs apparently arent making much from product sales anyways, it is WOTC's rationale that whatever harm this does to the lgs in lost product sales will be gained by 'new players' taking up the game because it is available in more mainstream establishments.

With that said, I am doubtful that MTG is the type of game that would receive much adoption (if any) from simply being available in places like Amazon and Walmart. Who is going to see the product listed or sold at these places and impulse buy it and then actually go through with finding a lgs or local community to learn this stuff, especially when there are other shinier toys available that have none of that commitment required. Their model is probably the closest thing you can get to printing money but they are still finding ways to screw it up.

WotC, and Hasbro by extension, have put MASSIVE amounts of faith in the "Magic" brand name, and that faith is just not warranted. It stinks of a lot of what they did with DnD 4th edition -- they relied on the "brand" to sell a product that players didn't actually want. And it failed horribly.

[H]

From my understanding (talking the manager of the largest lgs in my area), essentially all of the profits comes from selling supplementary stuff such as storage boxes, playmats, sleeves and dice. Everything else basically just exists to facilitate traffic and have people purchase these things. Since lgs apparently arent making much from product sales anyways, it is WOTC's rationale that whatever harm this does to the lgs in lost product sales will be gained by 'new players' taking up the game because it is available in more mainstream establishments.

Yeah, the actual product isn't really a money maker. Sealed product, now-a-days, would seem to be more for running limited events than it is for people walking in and buying to just open. Sure it's there, but I really doubt if there is any store that could even do the sort of volume in sealed product that would keep it in business. If Channel Fireball or Star City didn't sell singles, etc, they'd be long since out of business.


With that said, I am doubtful that MTG is the type of game that would receive much adoption (if any) from simply being available in places like Amazon and Walmart. Who is going to see the product listed or sold at these places and impulse buy it and then actually go through with finding a lgs or local community to learn this stuff, especially when there are other shinier toys available that have none of that commitment required. Their model is probably the closest thing you can get to printing money but they are still finding ways to screw it up.

Well, I've been saying it for the last few years, but Wizards' focus on "organic growth" (that is, getting people who already buy to just buy more) is likely the correct strategy. The methods they are using to do it though, well, they are suspect, at minimum. Expeditions/Masterpieces don't seem to have been a "good" answer, from the standpoint of sustainable sales. I think the Commander pre-cons were a success. These Mythic boxes, or whatever they are called, are not likely to be a great answer either though. The question, I think, that Wizards fails to answer, is "if one isn't interested in Standard, how does Wizards convince you to buy sealed product?" Just wider availability isn't a "growth" strategy, it's just a way to limit some of the product pipeline bottlenecks. It should "smooth" out sales, perhaps gain a tiny bit due to people buying from places where perhaps there isn't an LGS, but such growth will probably be incredibly modest.

I think all of these stop-gap measures will still fail to appreciably expand profits, because they do not offer any substantial EV increase and the lack of such is why most people don't buy sealed product. I think all future attempts will largely fail because the distribution model is just fundamentally flawed and is positively archaic by today's standards. You can try to staple whatever you want to it, but it's still not scale-able, it's still not very marketable, and it is hopelessly out of date compared to digital distribution (or LCGs, or whatever).

[Barook]

Well, I've been saying it for the last few years, but Wizards' focus on "organic growth" (that is, getting people who already buy to just buy more) is likely the correct strategy. The methods they are using to do it though, well, they are suspect, at minimum. Expeditions/Masterpieces don't seem to have been a "good" answer, from the standpoint of sustainable sales. I think the Commander pre-cons were a success. These Mythic boxes, or whatever they are called, are not likely to be a great answer either though. The question, I think, that Wizards fails to answer, is "if one isn't interested in Standard, how does Wizards convince you to buy sealed product?" Just wider availability isn't a "growth" strategy, it's just a way to limit some of the product pipeline bottlenecks. It should "smooth" out sales, perhaps gain a tiny bit due to people buying from places where perhaps there isn't an LGS, but such growth will probably be incredibly modest.

I think all of these stop-gap measures will still fail to appreciably expand profits, because they do not offer any substantial EV increase and the lack of such is why most people don't buy sealed product. I think all future attempts will largely fail because the distribution model is just fundamentally flawed and is positively archaic by today's standards. You can try to staple whatever you want to it, but it's still not scale-able, it's still not very marketable, and it is hopelessly out of date compared to digital distribution (or LCGs, or whatever).
Thing is that they've milked the playerbase for the last few years (evident by the ever increasing amount of product they put out each year), but it appears that they've finally hit the wall, considering their revenue slightly declined last year instead of growing.

As for the EV thing - it puzzles me why they don't do more good EV sets and print the shit out of it to meet demand. Card prices would decrease, which would increase accessibility to the game, aka more people buying stuff. Instead, they have a raging boner for collectors, and by catering to them, they price people out of the game and enable scalpers left and right. It's the players that keep the game alive, not some chucklefucks with dozens of copies of high priced cards sitting in a binder. The original Modern Masters was a smash success since it provided good EV alongside being a good set. Why they didn't learn from this is beyond me. But hey, WotC is one of the most terribly managed companies on the planet (with a good game designed by Richard Garfield), so no surprises here.

[twndomn]

For people who are already playing Legacy with their own favorite deck(s), the current state is probably great.

For people who are on the sideline looking in, the barrier to entry is at the Highest ever. There's only 400+ players for SCG Baltimore, only 800+ for GP Richmond. There were 1,600+ for GP Seattle pre-banning of DRS. I don't think this is a coincidence. It appears that the event attendance is becoming proportional to the number of people who can afford Underground Sea. This land is in Grixis-anything, Death Shadow, Storm, UB reanimator (if that's still a thing), and more. The finance aspect of Legacy is my primary concern even though I don't play decks requiring Underground Sea.

[H]

Thing is that they've milked the playerbase for the last few years (evident by the ever increasing amount of product they put out each year), but it appears that they've finally hit the wall, considering their revenue slightly declined last year instead of growing.

Yes, that is the danger. But organic growth isn't just about putting out more product, although that is the simplest way to try to spur it. Wizards hasn't quite realized this, or they don't want to.


As for the EV thing - it puzzles me why they don't do more good EV sets and print the shit out of it to meet demand. Card prices would decrease, which would increase accessibility to the game, aka more people buying stuff. Instead, they have a raging boner for collectors, and by catering to them, they price people out of the game and enable scalpers left and right. It's the players that keep the game alive, not some chucklefucks with dozens of copies of high priced cards sitting in a binder. The original Modern Masters was a smash success since it provided good EV alongside being a good set. Why they didn't learn from this is beyond me. But hey, WotC is one of the most terribly managed companies on the planet (with a good game designed by Richard Garfield), so no surprises here.

Fear. Here's the thing, they have no clue about how large the collectors sector is. Organized play only leads to only a fraction of sales. The rest must be casual/collectors. Just how much is either one is really anyone's guess. And since they don't know what drastically dropping prices would actually do, they just do what they have always done. It's actually, in a round about way, a good thing for Wizards that there are scalpers. Scalpers are constant customers. Players and collectors are far more fickle, because there are intrinsic reasons why they are buying. Scalpers just want anything they can short supply on. So, it actually in Wizards' business interest to not fight scalpers, just like how here in the US, it is in ticket companies best interest to not seriously fight ticket scalpers.

If secondary market prices fall too far or supply isn't limited, scalpers will just quit buying and cracking product, because it wouldn't be worth it. If they do, players themselves will never buy up that excess. I think that is the fear. I don't know that it is actually true, but that's my best guess.

[morgan_coke]

Maybe they could move more product if they designed sets for Standard instead of Limited. Because you know, godawful Standards drive down play and interest.

[phonics]

Maybe they could move more product if they designed sets for Standard instead of Limited. Because you know, godawful Standards drive down play and interest.

I think in general their entire policy was just to try to do as little as possible and let the goose keep laying golden eggs, but much of the original design zeitgeist has basically reached its ceiling while marketing has coasted on doing essentially nothing and they have been caught with their pants down, which is why they have been floundering while trying to innovate suddenly.

[Dice_Box]

Also they are no longer the only option, Hearthstone is eating them alive now.

[kombatkiwi]

I think in general their entire policy was just to try to do as little as possible and let the goose keep laying golden eggs, but much of the original design zeitgeist has basically reached its ceiling while marketing has coasted on doing essentially nothing and they have been caught with their pants down, which is why they have been floundering while trying to innovate suddenly.

Sounds about right

[H]

I think in general their entire policy was just to try to do as little as possible and let the goose keep laying golden eggs, but much of the original design zeitgeist has basically reached its ceiling while marketing has coasted on doing essentially nothing and they have been caught with their pants down, which is why they have been floundering while trying to innovate suddenly.

Right, I mean, on the one hand, it is wise to not change too much. On the other, insufficient change will inevitably lead to decile. There is a "sweet spot" between conservation of what has worked in the past and acknowledgement of what has changed in the present that necessitates change in for the future. Standard was viewed as a perpetual cash cow. But Standard's recent failure(s) have demonstrated that it isn't (likely to be) a sustainable model. I think part of it is that attempting to cater to all the market segments with the exact same product is simply not going to work. The different expectations of the Limited/Standard/Modern/Eternal/EDH/Casual/Collectors/Scalpers/Businesses are simply too fractious.

I think the biggest fear, and this is probably rational to an extent, is that a set with too good EV which is not limited availability, would "kill" any product released subsequently. Because, of course, if the price isn't jacked up and limited availability, why buy some Standard/Limited junk set when you could buy similarly priced, greater EV reprint set? Sure, some might, but most won't. Because who wants bulk rares and Limited fodder?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Standard's failure is our salvation. At least, it's the best hope of salvation, if it doesn't kill the game. That and Limited is actually the worst thing to happen to Constructed Magic in the game's history.

[Barook]

Because who wants bulk rares and Limited fodder?
That's a problem of modern sets in general. Like 90% of every set is a complete garbage fire and most of the value revolves around a few pushed cards. Everthing is way too save and cookie cutter now.

Seriously, I wonder how much of their revenue actually comes from Limited players since they fuck everybody else over for them, both in set design and rarity-wise.

Edit:

Also they are no longer the only option, Hearthstone is eating them alive now.
Hearthstone stole their thunder and showed what's possible revenue-wise if you actually gave a fuck and polished your product. It's the shareholders who are eating them alive now since they saw lots of money that isn't made by WotC. And other games entering the market after seeing those sweet Hearthstone bucks certainly didn't do WotC a favor, either.

Countering Hearthstone with a worse rip-off of Hearthstone, except with WotC's greed and incompetence added, is a recipe for disaster. We'll have to wait and see how Artifact is going to turn out, but if it blows up, then WotC is shit outta luck.

[H]

That's a problem of modern sets in general. Like 90% of every set is a complete garbage fire and most of the value revolves around a few pushed cards. Everthing is way too save and cookie cutter now.

Seriously, I wonder how much of their revenue actually comes from Limited players since they fuck everybody else over for them, both in set design and rarity-wise.

I don't think it is necessarily a large portion of revenue, so much as it is a large proportion of Organized Play. It also eases the demands placed on design since numerous cards are just functional reprints and others are literally designed to be bad/unplayable as "skill testers" (probably the biggest farce of this already farcical paradigm). It allows them to push out a set where some arbitrarily large proportion of the cards are actually just literal garbage and justify it (not entirely wrongly) as "good design." Even better, since there isn't any other option, the people who want some or all of the low, low percent of actual playable constructed cards are pretty much obligated to either buy the garbage in pursuit of the good, or pay the premium to get the good. I mean, I don't fault the premise, it's a fantastic way to build a revenue stream and has kept the game alive this long. It's just terrible from the consumer point of view.

Now that there are "more options" out there that don't suffer this, less and less people are going to sign up for that sort of shit. I mean, we idiots are still here, because we are too addicted, too invested, or too whatever to get out, but it's a hard, hard sell to anyone new. It's like if you didn't buy in to the nonsense of loot boxes in video games. The idea of it is idiotic and is (arguably, legally speaking in some places) not much different than gambling. Yet here we are, attempting to dissect the back-end problems of why the game isn't as popular as it "could be" when we accept it's terrible distribution model "without question."

[Barook]

I don't think it is necessarily a large portion of revenue, so much as it is a large proportion of Organized Play. It also eases the demands placed on design since numerous cards are just functional reprints and others are literally designed to be bad/unplayable as "skill testers" (probably the biggest farce of this already farcical paradigm). It allows them to push out a set where some arbitrarily large proportion of the cards are actually just literal garbage and justify it (not entirely wrongly) as "good design." Even better, since there isn't any other option, the people who want some or all of the low, low percent of actual playable constructed cards are pretty much obligated to either buy the garbage in pursuit of the good, or pay the premium to get the good. I mean, I don't fault the premise, it's a fantastic way to build a revenue stream and has kept the game alive this long. It's just terrible from the consumer point of view.
Not every card can be a winner, but the way they recycle old cards by making them more expensive and crappier is just downright insulting. Who wants to pay :2::r: for a sorcery speed Lightning Bolt? :eyebrow:

[H]

Not every card can be a winner, but the way they recycle old cards by making them more expensive and crappier is just downright insulting. Who wants to pay :2::r: for a sorcery speed Lightning Bolt? :eyebrow:

That's just the thing, from our (Eternal player's) perspective, that is literal garbage. However, there is a Limited environment where such a card is actually playable. There are also Limited environments where that card is also literal garbage. You get to experience the "skill test" of evaluating the Limited format and figuring out if that is playable or not. Except that the format is largely solved now-a-days in a matter of weeks. This is why Wizards has become so apt to limit MTGO data in recent years. Not that it really makes much of a difference. Again, Limited is made to do two main things: sell sealed product and ease the burden on Design (which actually moves a burden onto Balance).

When every card needs to be evaluated from the multivariate point of view of Limited/Standard/Modern/Eternal/EDH/Casual/Collectors/Scalpers/Business every product will be a failure. This is guaranteed by the fact that many of the priorities of one of those point of views is antithetical to the other's. This, again, is why the distribution model is destined to be a failure, it cannot accommodate what people buying it want it to be, since there simply is no way to make something that would please all of them at the same time.

[rufus]

... Even better, since there isn't any other option, the people who want some or all of the low, low percent of actual playable constructed cards are pretty much obligated to either buy the garbage in pursuit of the good, or pay the premium to get the good. ...

That's simply not true. If you don't care about participating in WotC or otherwise sanctioned play, then you can use whatever proxies you want. Chinese fakes are plenty good enough for my kitchen table.

[H]

That's simply not true. If you don't care about participating in WotC or otherwise sanctioned play, then you can use whatever proxies you want. Chinese fakes are plenty good enough for my kitchen table.

OK, yes, that is a fact. There is always the option of "simply do not purchase any." But if you are set on playing Sanctioned, or for some other reason desire to have "genuine product" there is no other choice. My "asertion" only applies with the underlying fundamental proposition that you are actually looking to buy genuine product. If you aren't, or are more than willing to not, there is literally an entire universe of possible things you could do, for example, you could also just steal boxes/packs/cards from a store or another person. Indulging all the "other" possibilities serves only obfuscate the point I am trying to make though.

[Cire]

You get to experience the "skill test" of evaluating the Limited format and figuring out if that is playable or not. Except that the format is largely solved now-a-days in a matter of weeks.

I think there's levels of skill test.

Level 1 - Is this card good in limited Competitive Play
Level 2 - Is this card good in non-limited Competitive Play
Level 3 - Is this card good for a specific non-limited Competitive Meta

The issues seem to be that:

A) Wizards designs cards to fit skill test level 1, in that they print clear jank (to competitive players) with the intention that it's harder to tell if the card is jank in limited.
B) Due to the internet, unlike previous secret team tech and the like, players solve skill test level 1 in a quicker amount of time then Wizards thought a particullar limited season would last.
C) It's actually faster to solve for the Skill Level 2 and 3 depending on how old the format is. The older the format, the faster it is to solve since any one set is a drop in the bucket compared to what's already existing in the format.
D) By printing bad cards to increase the time it takes to solve for Level 1, this decreases the time it takes to solve for 2 and 3 since printing clear non-limited bad cards leaves a smaller card pool to be evaluated.

[H]

I think there's levels of skill test.

Level 1 - Is this card good in limited Competitive Play
Level 2 - Is this card good in non-limited Competitive Play
Level 3 - Is this card good for a specific non-limited Competitive Meta

The issues seem to be that:

A) Wizards designs cards to fit skill test level 1, in that they print clear jank (to competitive players) with the intention that it's harder to tell if the card is jank in limited.
B) Due to the internet, unlike previous secret team tech and the like, players solve skill test level 1 in a quicker amount of time then Wizards thought a particullar limited season would last.
C) It's actually faster to solve for the Skill Level 2 and 3 depending on how old the format is. The older the format, the faster it is to solve since any one set is a drop in the bucket compared to what's already existing in the format.
D) By printing bad cards to increase the time it takes to solve for Level 1, this decreases the time it takes to solve for 2 and 3 since printing clear non-limited bad cards leaves a smaller card pool to be evaluated.

Right, I agree with that assessment pretty much. The thing is, that it doesn't actually have to be like that, or at least, I should say, I don't think it has to be like that. Many casual/EDH cards are simply not good in either Limited or Sanctioned formats. So, the idea that packs need to be seeded with "unplayable in any format" cards is absolutely a farce, patterned on the idea you detail above, but really is just a way to pad sets and sell more cards. Imagine, why do cards that don't pass the levels you present have to be completely useless to the rest of the market segments? Remember, we are positing that the Casual/EDH/Collector segment is necessarily bigger than the segments that seek Organized Play. Casual/EDH or even Collector aimed cards are bound to be bad in competative formats anyway, so what's the harm in having those in more packs, as opposed to totally dead weight ones? So, it stands to reason that the useless-in-every-format cards serve absolutely no purpose but to occupy space to lower the EV of packs. Lower EV of packs is designed to sell more packs. If the EV is too high, I think their thinking is that, one, people would acquire what they want too easily and so would buy less, and two, that a high EV would cannibalize subsequent potential EV of future printings. I don't think either is actually a fact, but there must be something in their thinking along those lines.

[rufus]

OK, yes, that is a fact. There is always the option of "simply do not purchase any." But if you are set on playing Sanctioned, or for some other reason desire to have "genuine product" there is no other choice. My "assertion" only applies with the underlying fundamental proposition that you are actually looking to buy genuine product. ....


...Yet here we are, attempting to dissect the back-end problems of why the game isn't as popular as it "could be" when we accept it's terrible distribution model "without question."

I guess it was meant to be rhetorical, but I'm just following your lead and questioning the distribution model. Talking about the relevance or value of sanctioned play seems particularly apropos when Gerry Thompson just skipped on worlds.

As for "buy" and "not buy" - is there any other kind of leverage that people have on WotC?

[H]

I guess it was meant to be rhetorical, but I'm just following your lead and questioning the distribution model. Talking about the relevance or value of sanctioned play seems particularly apropos when Gerry Thompson just skipped on worlds.

As for "buy" and "not buy" - is there any other kind of leverage that people have on WotC?

Right, sorry, I didn't mean it if I came across as dismissive. People are most definitely apt to simply "bail out" if they can't get the kind of EV that justifies their investment. What "bail out" means can be different for different people though. One way people are definitely "protesting" the distribution model is by simply not buying. Another is by buying proxies/fakes.

What Gerry did is another, although that has little to do with the distribution model. In the end, the "average" consumer is going to have to "make their voice heard" with their wallets. It's simply the only real way to drive home the point that the product simply isn't appealing. We can complain on the internet all day, what drives Wizards is Hasbro and what drives Hasbro is the bottom line they have to appease stock-holders with.

[Cire]

Right, I agree with that assessment pretty much. The thing is, that it doesn't actually have to be like that, or at least, I should say, I don't think it has to be like that. Many casual/EDH cards are simply not good in either Limited or Sanctioned formats. So, the idea that packs need to be seeded with "unplayable in any format" cards is absolutely a farce, patterned on the idea you detail above, but really is just a way to pad sets and sell more cards. Imagine, why do cards that don't pass the levels you present have to be completely useless to the rest of the market segments? Remember, we are positing that the Casual/EDH/Collector segment is necessarily bigger than the segments that seek Organized Play. Casual/EDH or even Collector aimed cards are bound to be bad in competative formats anyway, so what's the harm in having those in more packs, as opposed to totally dead weight ones? So, it stands to reason that the useless-in-every-format cards serve absolutely no purpose but to occupy space to lower the EV of packs. Lower EV of packs is designed to sell more packs. If the EV is too high, I think their thinking is that, one, people would acquire what they want too easily and so would buy less, and two, that a high EV would cannibalize subsequent potential EV of future printings. I don't think either is actually a fact, but there must be something in their thinking along those lines.

I agree. I feel a card should only be printed if it directly applies to (1) one of the three psychographic profiles, (2) one of the two aesthetic profiles (https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Player_type), or (3) fufills ones of the three skill levels listed above. If a card fufills neither, then its useless - no one wants it at all. Each card needs some reason for existing beyond simply existing . Mere existence should not be a goal of design. As such many current chaff cards could apply to (1) or (2). Hell, (2) is so broad in terms of Vorthos subtypes that as long as chaff is given good art or story then they can be allowed, but even in that arena current chaff cards suffer.

[phonics]

Are bad cards even necessary for a good draft format? They are only skill testing insofar as being used once, then forever being relegated to the draft chaff bin. High powered draft formats like masters sets have cards that may be weak in limited but are very strong in constructed, and from what I gather people love playing those sets because of how powerful they are. The extreme example of this is cube, which many consider to be the pinnacle of limited magic. Instead of having dead cards that essentially only trick newbies into playing them, every card is powerful and it is up to the deck builder to create the cohesive list that makes it all work, like creating an all star team. To me, this is far more interesting to play (and watch if it is streamed) than traditional limited which is the equivalent of play fighting with foam swords. The only rationale I can come up with is that they intentionally want draft to be super low powered because it is a limiting factor in game play which makes it simpler and easier for newbies to pick up.

Then there is a monetary aspect. For every crappy card that they put in a set, they are essentially wasting a slot that could be used for a good card. This limits the amount of good cards in a set which causes the value in the set to pool in those few cards. The most egregious example of this is mythic rares, where a couple of them are going to be the strongest cards the set, constructed staples that everyone wants, and the others are dollar bin cards that they put at mythic for 'flavor' reasons or something silly like that. Nobody even cracks boxes anymore since so much of the value in the set is concentrated in a couple cards that you might not even get, and there is not a single person on the face of the earth that enjoys cracking one of the worthless mythics in their box, they are probably the ultimate feel bad in pack cracking.

[Humphrey]

i guess there is only so much basic cards you can print before you fall into the spiral of power creep. i dont think there would be much difference between a vanilla 3/2 for 3 and a 3/2 flying, vigilance, lifelink for 3 when you see the 1001st reprint. i also like the low powerlevel of limited and although id like to see commons get a little better i doubt theyll get more useful than pauper formats. I also run a themed cube, so some amount of bad cards ends there for flavor reasons and when you sealed with it, its cool to sometimes see them played.

no, printing only chase cards doesnt work

[morgan_coke]

i guess there is only so much basic cards you can print before you fall into the spiral of power creep. i dont think there would be much difference between a vanilla 3/2 for 3 and a 3/2 flying, vigilance, lifelink for 3 when you see the 1001st reprint. i also like the low powerlevel of limited and although id like to see commons get a little better i doubt theyll get more useful than pauper formats. I also run a themed cube, so some amount of bad cards ends there for flavor reasons and when you sealed with it, its cool to sometimes see them played.

no, printing only chase cards doesnt work

Consider Putrefy and Mortify, which were considered all-stars when they were printed, vs. Abrupt Decay, and now Assassin's Trophy.

You do that every set and pretty soon you're just printing one mana vindicates and counterspells.

I mean, look at the kind of creatures they had to print to outclass Tarmogoyf. It's just stupid.

Also see Ravenous Baloth -> Loxodon Hierarch -> Siege Rhino.

[H]

Are bad cards even necessary for a good draft format? They are only skill testing insofar as being used once, then forever being relegated to the draft chaff bin. High powered draft formats like masters sets have cards that may be weak in limited but are very strong in constructed, and from what I gather people love playing those sets because of how powerful they are. The extreme example of this is cube, which many consider to be the pinnacle of limited magic. Instead of having dead cards that essentially only trick newbies into playing them, every card is powerful and it is up to the deck builder to create the cohesive list that makes it all work, like creating an all star team. To me, this is far more interesting to play (and watch if it is streamed) than traditional limited which is the equivalent of play fighting with foam swords. The only rationale I can come up with is that they intentionally want draft to be super low powered because it is a limiting factor in game play which makes it simpler and easier for newbies to pick up.

In theory? No, bad cards are not needed. In fact, the existence of Cube as a format is proof of this. Which is why I directly point out that the only real plausible explanation of why such completely unplayable cards exist actually has nothing to do with some fabled "skill testing" or any abstract concept like that and is simply a pragmatic solution to both put out more cards, which speaks to your later point, while making the burden on design and balance teams far lighter.


Then there is a monetary aspect. For every crappy card that they put in a set, they are essentially wasting a slot that could be used for a good card. This limits the amount of good cards in a set which causes the value in the set to pool in those few cards. The most egregious example of this is mythic rares, where a couple of them are going to be the strongest cards the set, constructed staples that everyone wants, and the others are dollar bin cards that they put at mythic for 'flavor' reasons or something silly like that. Nobody even cracks boxes anymore since so much of the value in the set is concentrated in a couple cards that you might not even get, and there is not a single person on the face of the earth that enjoys cracking one of the worthless mythics in their box, they are probably the ultimate feel bad in pack cracking.

Right, opening packs/boxes is almost always going to be net-negative EV, unless you can open enough to overcome the "randomness" of the distribution. Even then, it is probably a net loss if you are paying retail prices for boxes/packs. In this way, Wizards does indeed cater to the Scalper/Business/Collector segments. You can see every set's EV here. (http://mtg.dawnglare.com/?p=sets) Notice how the only real outlier is Modern Masters 1. Ixalan's value does "buck the trend" but is likely to decease once the sets are no longer in Standard.

So, to circle back around, the point of these worthless cards is specifically to limited EV. "Skill testing" is a bogus, farcical construct made up only to lighten the Design and Balance load and most importantly negatively impact the EV of the average pack in order to promote the selling of more boxes/cases.

[H]

i guess there is only so much basic cards you can print before you fall into the spiral of power creep. i dont think there would be much difference between a vanilla 3/2 for 3 and a 3/2 flying, vigilance, lifelink for 3 when you see the 1001st reprint. i also like the low powerlevel of limited and although id like to see commons get a little better i doubt theyll get more useful than pauper formats. I also run a themed cube, so some amount of bad cards ends there for flavor reasons and when you sealed with it, its cool to sometimes see them played.

no, printing only chase cards doesnt work


Consider Putrefy and Mortify, which were considered all-stars when they were printed, vs. Abrupt Decay, and now Assassin's Trophy.

You do that every set and pretty soon you're just printing one mana vindicates and counterspells.

I mean, look at the kind of creatures they had to print to outclass Tarmogoyf. It's just stupid.

Also see Ravenous Baloth -> Loxodon Hierarch -> Siege Rhino.

I think most might expect me to disagree here, given my stance. But I don't. The idea isn't to have pervasive power creep. Notice I don't say the aim is to not have power creep at all, as static state that would not be good for the game's Eternal formats (and even the non-Rotating ones) at all. Indeed, too much power creep is detrimental to future design space. The aim should be to be as progressive as possible, while not being regressive. Shit no one wants to play in any format is regressive. That doesn't mean you have to reinvent the wheel every set. It does mean you should be utilizing more actual reprints of reasonably playable cards, not functional reprints of already undesirable cards. Every card in a pack should be desirable from one of the market segments point of view. Packs now have too many cards, in my opinion, now-a-days that simply are filler and add nothing of any value at all to the person opening it.

Low power-level doesn't have to equal bad cards. You can make a low-power Cube with cards people actually want, rather than filling it with undesirable Grizzly Bears of every shape and size. It's doable, it's just more difficult. And again, it's antithetical to the aim of lowering pack EV.

[Humphrey]

I dont agree that packs nowadays have more filler. In fact its the opposite (kind of). Thanks to limited almost every card is playable nowadays and you can easily build a decent casual decks after like 3 drafts when you aim for the same colors. Try that in the glorified days of Legends and its Cathedral of Serras Tons of commons and even uncommons and rares Chaoslace *cough* were trash up until like tempest were they finally found a decent path.

Your sight on the game is way too biased from a spike eternal player view

[Cire]

I dont agree that packs nowadays have more filler. In fact its the opposite (kind of). Thanks to limited almost every card is playable nowadays and you can easily build a decent casual decks after like 3 drafts when you aim for the same colors. Try that in the glorified days of Legends and its Cathedral of Serra (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1699)s Tons of commons and even uncommons and rares Chaoslace (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2265) *cough* were trash up until like tempest were they finally found a decent path.

Your sight on the game is way too biased from a spike eternal player view

I don't think that's what H is saying. The arguement is not that "there is more trash", but that "Trash is not required". The argument even extends to "Less Trash would be good for the health of the Game as a whole".

[H]

I dont agree that packs nowadays have more filler. In fact its the opposite (kind of). Thanks to limited almost every card is playable nowadays and you can easily build a decent casual decks after like 3 drafts when you aim for the same colors. Try that in the glorified days of Legends and its Cathedral of Serra (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1699)s Tons of commons and even uncommons and rares Chaoslace (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2265) *cough* were trash up until like tempest were they finally found a decent path.

Your sight on the game is way too biased from a spike eternal player view

A good point. I can't pretend I am not biased. But that's pretty much part of the issue, though, right? That "one-size-fits-all" product is bound to disappoint a fair portion of the market segments?


I don't think that's what H is saying. The arguement is not that "there is more trash", but that "Trash is not required". The argument even extends to "Less Trash would be good for the health of the Game as a whole".

Also a good point. There has always been trash, but doesn't predicate there always needs to be trash. Especially not when people may well not be using the packs for Limited.

[Humphrey]

but "trash" is highly subjective. for me trash are cards that are literally unplayables like laces. A vanilla bear is always playable. As said, when you dont spin the powerwheel like crazy you will always have worse cards that are considered trash by someone. MaRo wrote an article why you need "bad" cards.

And standard packs are designed for limited play and beginner, I think the product does a somewhat decent job. Sure Id appreciate the powerlevel of master edition set levels, but you would still have "trash". For Spikes you have the secondary market.

[H]

but "trash" is highly subjective. for me trash are cards that are literally unplayables like laces. A vanilla bear is always playable. As said, when you dont spin the powerwheel like crazy you will always have worse cards that are considered trash by someone. MaRo wrote an article why you need "bad" cards.

And standard packs are designed for limited play and beginner, I think the product does a somewhat decent job. Sure Id appreciate the powerlevel of master edition set levels, but you would still have "trash". For Spikes you have the secondary market.

Absolutely a fact. All of that. Again, this is why we are discussing the merit and viability of the distribution model. The question we are working toward an "answer" to is: why isn't Wizards selling more product? Which can be rephrased, in a way, as "why isn't Magic more popular?" Or "how can Wizards grow the game?"

My hypothesis is that the antiquated, disjointed nature of the distribution model is a major factor why Wizards does not sell as many packs as they "could." Of course people can turn to the secondary market. But that turning is actually detrimental to the growth of the game, because it drives entry prices higher. How much is the price of Standard-competitive cards a barrier? Serious question, I don't know that anyone knows the exact answer. But consider it for Modern even, so as to not entangle the Reserve List issue. How much does cost keep people from playing? The reprint policy is a direct off-shoot of distribution model and a direct barrier for entry to non-rotating formats. The key is that, I believe, Wizards does not want to tear down that barrier, because it would make Standard even harder to market.

[kombatkiwi]

So much stupidity in this thread in the last couple of pages.
For all the legitimate complaints towards wizards recently regarding Organized Play, PR, Marketing etc I think that generally their R&D department does a great job and I'm so glad none of you work there.


I think the biggest fear, and this is probably rational to an extent, is that a set with too good EV which is not limited availability, would "kill" any product released subsequently. Because, of course, if the price isn't jacked up and limited availability, why buy some Standard/Limited junk set when you could buy similarly priced, greater EV reprint set? Sure, some might, but most won't. Because who wants bulk rares and Limited fodder?
You either don't understand what EV means or how it works.
Imagine I create an unlimited print-run version of a pack. Each of these packs cost $5 and you're guaranteed to open 1 copy of Engineered Explosives (which for the sake of discussion is currently priced at $100). In the current (real) market, it would be considered very profitable to be able to get an EE for $5. However, in a world with an unlimited supply of Engineered Explosives available for $5, the price of EE instantly drops to $5. Some people buy these packs and then later don't want the EE anymore, or they are given out in tournament prizes, increasing the market supply of EE even further. The price of EE drops to lower than $5. Now even though you are getting what was previously a "$100 card" in your $5 pack, these $5 packs are now negative EV, because you get less than $5 worth of product out of it. You can extrapolate this argument to packs that have random distributions of different cards in them. You can never have a pack with positive EV if that pack has an unlimited print run: weird exceptions like MM1 are when the set is so good that the demand for the packs exceeds the supply. If by "set with too good EV" you mean "a set with a lot of constructed playable cards in it" then fine but that's not what "Expected Value" means.


I've said it before and I'll say it again, Standard's failure is our salvation. At least, it's the best hope of salvation, if it doesn't kill the game. That and Limited is actually the worst thing to happen to Constructed Magic in the game's history.
Standard and limited are how WotC makes money, it's not going to "kill the game". Limited basically has no effect on constructed; can you think of a card that has had its effect altered to be balanced for limited?


Seriously, I wonder how much of their revenue actually comes from Limited players since they fuck everybody else over for them, both in set design and rarity-wise.
How?


I don't think it is necessarily a large portion of revenue, so much as it is a large proportion of Organized Play. It also eases the demands placed on design since numerous cards are just functional reprints and others are literally designed to be bad/unplayable as "skill testers" (probably the biggest farce of this already farcical paradigm). It allows them to push out a set where some arbitrarily large proportion of the cards are actually just literal garbage and justify it (not entirely wrongly) as "good design." Even better, since there isn't any other option, the people who want some or all of the low, low percent of actual playable constructed cards are pretty much obligated to either buy the garbage in pursuit of the good, or pay the premium to get the good. I mean, I don't fault the premise, it's a fantastic way to build a revenue stream and has kept the game alive this long. It's just terrible from the consumer point of view.
So you're saying that trying to balance hundreds of commons/uncommons every set for an enjoyable limited format EASES the demands placed on design? The only way this claim makes any sense is if you expect wizards to replace every bear and hill giant with some kind of totally novel constructed-playable effect, which is insanity. The amount of power creep this would cause would totally upend legacy and modern within 1 year or less.

Going back to my hypothetical EE-Pack scenario: imagine the pack is still $5, still has 1 EE, but now I add 4 'garbage' worthless cards (like 4 basic islands or something). Does the EV of the pack change? No. Your argument only makes sense if you assume that without the extra garbage commons cards I could sell you the pack for cheaper, which I admit might be possible, at the cost of making limited unplayable.

Erasing limited is a significant financial cost for constructed players: you are totally ignoring the suppressive effect that limited formats have on card prices. Without limited formats, people buy packs until they have the cards they want. As I have established, packs can never be +EV, so once they have the cards they need there is no incentive to buy packs anymore. This limits the supply of cards on the secondary market so keeps the price for singles relatively high. When draft and sealed events exist, people have an incentive to open packs beyond just getting the cards they need, so more copies of the chase cards enter the market and it reduces the cost of playing constructed. Coming from yugioh which has no limited tournaments and noting the difference in the prices of the chase rares you can see that this plays a significant role in why a "standard mythic" type of card is much cheaper in magic.


Not every card can be a winner, but the way they recycle old cards by making them more expensive and crappier is just downright insulting. Who wants to pay for a sorcery speed Lightning Bolt?
Again, the alternative is that either we keep reprinting lightning bolt and STP over and over, which would restrict the design space of both standard and limited and make them boring, or we reprint cards that are side- or up-grades to these cards and now we have internet mouthbreathers going apeshit about power creep instead of "uhhhhhh why does lightning strike exist it's just a worse lightning bolt". Pick your poison


That's just the thing, from our (Eternal player's) perspective, that is literal garbage. However, there is a Limited environment where such a card is actually playable. There are also Limited environments where that card is also literal garbage. You get to experience the "skill test" of evaluating the Limited format and figuring out if that is playable or not. Except that the format is largely solved now-a-days in a matter of weeks.
Even if we assume this to be true, if limited formats being solved quickly was an actual issue then why do so many pro players still wax lyrical about draft? This morning Ben Stark tweeted about trying to fire a draft queue of Dominaria on MODO despite the fact that the set was released 5 months ago (and according to you has therefore been 'solved' for 4 months).


I think there's levels of skill test.

Level 1 - Is this card good in limited Competitive Play
Level 2 - Is this card good in non-limited Competitive Play
Level 3 - Is this card good for a specific non-limited Competitive Meta

The issues seem to be that:

A) Wizards designs cards to fit skill test level 1, in that they print clear jank (to competitive players) with the intention that it's harder to tell if the card is jank in limited.
B) Due to the internet, unlike previous secret team tech and the like, players solve skill test level 1 in a quicker amount of time then Wizards thought a particullar limited season would last.
C) It's actually faster to solve for the Skill Level 2 and 3 depending on how old the format is. The older the format, the faster it is to solve since any one set is a drop in the bucket compared to what's already existing in the format.
D) By printing bad cards to increase the time it takes to solve for Level 1, this decreases the time it takes to solve for 2 and 3 since printing clear non-limited bad cards leaves a smaller card pool to be evaluated.

A) This is not an issue. Wizards has to do this. As I explained, the solution to this "issue" is either removing Limited gameplay entirely or implementing insane powercreep
B) Probably true, but again, not an "issue"
C) True, but wizards doesn't deliberately design cards in standard sets for vintage, legacy, or in most cases even modern. Do you really want every set to be like RTR and basically flip the format upside down?
D) Again, the solution to this "issue" is necessarily to replace every Grizzly Bear and Cancel with some entirely novel effect with constructed applications: powercreep will occur at an extreme rate until the game is basically unrecognisable


So, it stands to reason that the useless-in-every-format cards serve absolutely no purpose but to occupy space to lower the EV of packs. Lower EV of packs is designed to sell more packs. If the EV is too high, I think their thinking is that, one, people would acquire what they want too easily and so would buy less, and two, that a high EV would cannibalize subsequent potential EV of future printings. I don't think either is actually a fact, but there must be something in their thinking along those lines.
You're again disregarding the importance of limited formats to many people's MTG experience and showing that you don't understand how EV actually works.


Are bad cards even necessary for a good draft format? They are only skill testing insofar as being used once, then forever being relegated to the draft chaff bin. High powered draft formats like masters sets have cards that may be weak in limited but are very strong in constructed, and from what I gather people love playing those sets because of how powerful they are. The extreme example of this is cube, which many consider to be the pinnacle of limited magic. Instead of having dead cards that essentially only trick newbies into playing them, every card is powerful and it is up to the deck builder to create the cohesive list that makes it all work, like creating an all star team. To me, this is far more interesting to play (and watch if it is streamed) than traditional limited which is the equivalent of play fighting with foam swords. The only rationale I can come up with is that they intentionally want draft to be super low powered because it is a limiting factor in game play which makes it simpler and easier for newbies to pick up.
Not every masters set is considered a good draft format just like not every cube is considered a good draft format. There have been recent MTGO cubes where the powerlevel of the decks is way higher than the draft decks from standard-legal sets but the cubes are not fun because the drafting and gameplay experience is not interesting. Modern Masters sets are still full of "limited chaff" anyway. MM1 was considered a very good limited format and had (for example) a RB-sac archetype with a Goblin subtheme. Cards like Tar Pitcher and Warren Pilferers have never been constructed playable.

At this point in the thread both Humphrey and morgan_coke have posts which actually make some sense


In theory? No, bad cards are not needed. In fact, the existence of Cube as a format is proof of this. Which is why I directly point out that the only real plausible explanation of why such completely unplayable cards exist actually has nothing to do with some fabled "skill testing" or any abstract concept like that and is simply a pragmatic solution to both put out more cards, which speaks to your later point, while making the burden on design and balance teams far lighter.
As I keep saying, "bad" cards are needed, unless you want
a) Much smaller sets that don't support limited gameplay at all, or
b) Insane powercreep
Cube formats don't suffer from this issue because they can't cause powercreep: they are using all reprints and not adding to the card pool at all


Right, opening packs/boxes is almost always going to be net-negative EV, unless you can open enough to overcome the "randomness" of the distribution.
You're actually an idiot lol
Better head to vegas and spin the roulette wheel 100000 times, can't come out ahead unless you have a large sample to even out the randomness


So, to circle back around, the point of these worthless cards is specifically to limited EV. "Skill testing" is a bogus, farcical construct made up only to lighten the Design and Balance load and most importantly negatively impact the EV of the average pack in order to promote the selling of more boxes/cases.
Please answer whether you want limited to disappear entirely or whether you want absurd powercreep in your constructed formats because these are the only 2 alternatives


The idea isn't to have pervasive power creep. Notice I don't say the aim is to not have power creep at all, as static state that would not be good for the game's Eternal formats (and even the non-Rotating ones) at all. Indeed, too much power creep is detrimental to future design space. The aim should be to be as progressive as possible, while not being regressive. Shit no one wants to play in any format is regressive. That doesn't mean you have to reinvent the wheel every set. It does mean you should be utilizing more actual reprints of reasonably playable cards, not functional reprints of already undesirable cards. Every card in a pack should be desirable from one of the market segments point of view. Packs now have too many cards, in my opinion, now-a-days that simply are filler and add nothing of any value at all to the person opening it. Low power-level doesn't have to equal bad cards. You can make a low-power Cube with cards people actually want, rather than filling it with undesirable Grizzly Bears of every shape and size. It's doable, it's just more difficult. And again, it's antithetical to the aim of lowering pack EV.
- The underlying assumption in this post is that limited gameplay isn't a "market segment" that anybody cares about, which in my opinion is idiotic
- You're simultaneously complaining that the wotc card design team is lazy while demanding that they simply reprint more cards that already exist
- I agree that you CAN make a low-power CUBE with cards that people actually want because these cards are all reprints and therefore don't contribute to the power creep problem
- Your answer to how the power creep problem is solved ("be as progressive as possible, without being regressive") is wishy-washy and doesn't actually explain anything. If you want many more new cards in each set to be worthy of constructed play then power creep is accelerating by definition. You haven't adequately addressed this at all
- You either don't understand how EV works or don't know what it means


I dont agree that packs nowadays have more filler. In fact its the opposite (kind of). Thanks to limited almost every card is playable nowadays and you can easily build a decent casual decks after like 3 drafts when you aim for the same colors. Try that in the glorified days of Legends and its Cathedral of Serras Tons of commons and even uncommons and rares Chaoslace *cough* were trash up until like tempest were they finally found a decent path.

Your sight on the game is way too biased from a spike eternal player view
This is an extremely good point: a ton of old sets were full of cards that were unplayable in both constructed AND limited. The reason why modern limited formats are almost universally considered better than the ancient ones (did you watch any of those fucking beta drafts lmao) are because the current WotC design actually does put in effort into how those throwaway commons play.


I don't think that's what H is saying. The arguement is not that "there is more trash", but that "Trash is not required". The argument even extends to "Less Trash would be good for the health of the Game as a whole".

Also a good point. There has always been trash, but doesn't predicate there always needs to be trash. Especially not when people may well not be using the packs for Limited.
Ok, so your answer is that rather than have powercreep, we should just design the sets to have like 1/4 the number of cards and limited MTG doesn't exist anymore. If you think this is actually reasonable then I don't know what to say to you.


My hypothesis is that the antiquated, disjointed nature of the distribution model is a major factor why Wizards does not sell as many packs as they "could." Of course people can turn to the secondary market. But that turning is actually detrimental to the growth of the game, because it drives entry prices higher.
How does the existence of a secondary market make the barrier to entry higher? If it was cheaper to get the cards from buying packs people would already just do that instead.


But consider it for Modern even, so as to not entangle the Reserve List issue. How much does cost keep people from playing? The reprint policy is a direct off-shoot of distribution model and a direct barrier for entry to non-rotating formats. The key is that, I believe, Wizards does not want to tear down that barrier, because it would make Standard even harder to market.
I agree that wizards of the coast should reprint high-value cards more frequently in order to bring the prices down and make the game more accessible.
I don't believe that wizards avoids doing this in order to drive people to play standard: yes standard is widely considered their main profit source but it's not like they wouldn't make a ton of money selling another masters set with a lot of chase cards in it.
I just think they have the wrong mindset: hyper afraid of people getting upset at the value of their collection dipping, when they should be more worried about people dropping out due to formats slowly becoming less and less accessible.

Edit:
Another point that I forgot to mention is that even if you do try to print novel effects on all your cards, the pool of constructed playable cards is effectively capped anyway because there's realistically no way that a competitive metagame can support an unlimited number of viable archetypes. Using yugioh as an example again, there are hardly any examples of cards that are strictly worse than another (once you are past the alpha-beta-unl-AQ era that had a lot of vanilla creatures in it) because the sets aren't designed for limited, so every new set is full of weird tribal synergies and niche spells and creatures that do things that have never been seen before. But the top tier of competition (in an eternal format with a release schedule similar to MTG that has existed since 2001) still basically never has more than 3 viable decks available, and it's not too hard for the players to figure out what they are. For all the complaining about "the pros solve limited so fast now" who's to say they can't do the same for constructed? You might end up with a ton of weird new cards in MTG if you want to design sets this way but even if you somehow avoid powercreep while doing this, you won't end up with a situation that's any different to what we have now (a small number of constructed viable cards in sets containing mostly 'junk'),

[H]

For all the legitimate complaints towards wizards recently regarding Organized Play, PR, Marketing etc I think that generally their R&D department does a great job and I'm so glad none of you work there.

I'm glad I don't work there either.


You either don't understand what EV means or how it works.
Imagine I create an unlimited print-run version of a pack. Each of these packs cost $5 and you're guaranteed to open 1 copy of Engineered Explosives (which for the sake of discussion is currently priced at $100). In the current (real) market, it would be considered very profitable to be able to get an EE for $5. However, in a world with an unlimited supply of Engineered Explosives available for $5, the price of EE instantly drops to $5. Some people buy these packs and then later don't want the EE anymore, or they are given out in tournament prizes, increasing the market supply of EE even further. The price of EE drops to lower than $5. Now even though you are getting what was previously a "$100 card" in your $5 pack, these $5 packs are now negative EV, because you get less than $5 worth of product out of it. You can extrapolate this argument to packs that have random distributions of different cards in them. You can never have a pack with positive EV if that pack has an unlimited print run: weird exceptions like MM1 are when the set is so good that the demand for the packs exceeds the supply. If by "set with too good EV" you mean "a set with a lot of constructed playable cards in it" then fine but that's not what "Expected Value" means.

I never said there should be unlimited print runs though. And I never said EV was a fixed value. Indeed, I wasn't as succinct in my terminology as I should have been, as I should have specified that value, in this case, would have been "constructed playable cards."



Standard and limited are how WotC makes money, it's not going to "kill the game". Limited basically has no effect on constructed; can you think of a card that has had its effect altered to be balanced for limited?

I never said either would kill the game. I realize that both are very important revenue streams. But Limited does have an effect on Constructed. Cards still need to be balanced for Limited. Or at least made a certain rarity for Limited. Which does effect Constructed. But I have no idea how I can prove what cards were not printed as originally conceieved or designed because of Limited balance, since I don't work there.


So you're saying that trying to balance hundreds of commons/uncommons every set for an enjoyable limited format EASES the demands placed on design? The only way this claim makes any sense is if you expect wizards to replace every bear and hill giant with some kind of totally novel constructed-playable effect, which is insanity. The amount of power creep this would cause would totally upend legacy and modern within 1 year or less.

I already said, it eases the burden of Design and increased the burden on Balance. And what you suggest is not at all what I suggested.


Going back to my hypothetical EE-Pack scenario: imagine the pack is still $5, still has 1 EE, but now I add 4 'garbage' worthless cards (like 4 basic islands or something). Does the EV of the pack change? No. Your argument only makes sense if you assume that without the extra garbage commons cards I could sell you the pack for cheaper, which I admit might be possible, at the cost of making limited unplayable.

Wait, what? Since I seem to not understand EV, you'll have to explain that to me more. Again, your hypothetical EV supposes unlimited supply, which I never advocated for. Without unlimited supply and no rarity, sure, the EV of the whole pack is going to be $5. Even in this hypotethical situation though, it still must include the whole pack. Suposing that all the value is located in the rare, when there are plenty of relatively "high dollar" commons in existance doesn't add up to me. So again, you'll need to explain this to an idiot like me.


Erasing limited is a significant financial cost for constructed players: you are totally ignoring the suppressive effect that limited formats have on card prices. Without limited formats, people buy packs until they have the cards they want. As I have established, packs can never be +EV, so once they have the cards they need there is no incentive to buy packs anymore. This limits the supply of cards on the secondary market so keeps the price for singles relatively high. When draft and sealed events exist, people have an incentive to open packs beyond just getting the cards they need, so more copies of the chase cards enter the market and it reduces the cost of playing constructed. Coming from yugioh which has no limited tournaments and noting the difference in the prices of the chase rares you can see that this plays a significant role in why a "standard mythic" type of card is much cheaper in magic.

Not something I advocated for, at all, ever. I am criticizing the idea that one product can fit all market segments.


Even if we assume this to be true, if limited formats being solved quickly was an actual issue then why do so many pro players still wax lyrical about draft? This morning Ben Stark tweeted about trying to fire a draft queue of Dominaria on MODO despite the fact that the set was released 5 months ago (and according to you has therefore been 'solved' for 4 months).

There are plenty of reasons why someone might do that, even if my hypothetical supposition of it's "being solved" is right or wrong. I absolutely can be wrong on the time frame. He could just enjoy it. Or still desire more practice. Nothing there confirms or denies what I said, which again, I already admitted could be wrong.


You're again disregarding the importance of limited formats to many people's MTG experience and showing that you don't understand how EV actually works.

I've not disregarded Limited as important, in fact, I said just the opposite. But it isn't something everyone is interested in. And again, you haven't actually taught me anything about EV, as your "example" only used a hypothetical distribution model that doesn't exist.


You're actually an idiot lol
Better head to vegas and spin the roulette wheel 100000 times, can't come out ahead unless you have a large sample to even out the randomness

Is it not the case you more boxes, there is a better chance that the variance in the opened value of one is mitigated by the subsequent boxes?

And again, you haven't taught me anything about real world EV, you just say: "lol, idiot" and give made up version of EV that don't apply to the real world.


Please answer whether you want limited to disappear entirely or whether you want absurd powercreep in your constructed formats because these are the only 2 alternatives

Nope, never said that and only your skewed reading leads you to think I want either, when I have specifically said I don't want either.


- The underlying assumption in this post is that limited gameplay isn't a "market segment" that anybody cares about, which in my opinion is idiotic
- You're simultaneously complaining that the wotc card design team is lazy while demanding that they simply reprint more cards that already exist
- I agree that you CAN make a low-power CUBE with cards that people actually want because these cards are all reprints and therefore don't contribute to the power creep problem
- Your answer to how the power creep problem is solved ("be as progressive as possible, without being regressive") is wishy-washy and doesn't actually explain anything. If you want many more new cards in each set to be worthy of constructed play then power creep is accelerating by definition. You haven't adequately addressed this at all
- You either don't understand how EV works or don't know what it means

You must mean, is, not isn't. And that is not at all what I said. It isn't a segment everyone cares about and that is a fact.

I never said they were lazy. Lightening their load doesn't mean they are lazy, it means their job is more manageable.

What's wrong with that? What's wrong with reprints?

Correct, because, like I said, I don't work in Design and I don't want to. I just don't think there need to be cards that don't fit in Limited or Constructed in packs. Also, I don't buy that one-size-fits-all-market-segements is a sustainable model going forward.

Again, you have taught me nothing of what it actually is, only insulted me and made up examples that don't model real life.


Ok, so your answer is that rather than have powercreep, we should just design the sets to have like 1/4 the number of cards and limited MTG doesn't exist anymore. If you think this is actually reasonable then I don't know what to say to you.

I never said or implied that Limited should not exist. Just that one-size-fits-all-market-segements products fail to fit all market segments.


How does the existence of a secondary market make the barrier to entry higher? If it was cheaper to get the cards from buying packs people would already just do that instead.

No, the distribution model, which leads to the secondary market, is what makes the barrier high, I should have been more clear.


I agree that wizards of the coast should reprint high-value cards more frequently in order to bring the prices down and make the game more accessible.
I don't believe that wizards avoids doing this in order to drive people to play standard: yes standard is widely considered their main profit source but it's not like they wouldn't make a ton of money selling another masters set with a lot of chase cards in it.
I just think they have the wrong mindset: hyper afraid of people getting upset at the value of their collection dipping, when they should be more worried about people dropping out due to formats slowly becoming less and less accessible.

Well, there we agree.

[Bithlord]

No, the distribution model, which leads to the secondary market, is what makes the barrier high, I should have been more clear.


Unfortunately, the distribution model is here to stay, because it is the only way for limited to work. (If you need evidence, see how difficult getting limited to work in the various LCG's by fantasy flight is). All that said, I would *love* to see factory sets, sold by WotC in addition to booster boxes. Ramp the price up to about 1.5X the price of a booster box, and no foil option. But, sell the factory set directly. Collectors would be limited to foils / premium cards as a by product of this, you still have packs in big box retail, but players can buy a full set easily.

It's not going to happen though.

[ronco]

I'm glad I don't work there either.

Is it not the case you more boxes, there is a better chance that the variance in the opened value of one is mitigated by the subsequent boxes?

And again, you haven't taught me anything about real world EV, you just say: "lol, idiot" and give made up version of EV that don't apply to the real world.


I try to stay in my lane and not post in the general forums, but here is what I think kombatkiwi is getting at:
EV will always be less than the value of a box (or pack), for one single box. Otherwise people would (and do) buy them to crack and put the singles into the market, thus increasing the supply and decreasing the price. From what I think you are saying, one could buy multiple boxes in hopes of getting the higher value rare/mythics in one, thus bucking the trend turning a profit. This might be theoretically possible, but given that the EV is below the box price, its complete luck that this happens and most people won't be successful in doing so. Akin to the example KK provided, its possible to get ahead at roulette even though the EV of roulette is less than the cost of one bet per spin. You may hit a streak and be up overall or hit a long shot "mythic" in the short run, but the longer you play the more there will be a "reversion to the mean" (if you will) and you will end up losing money. So, no, the more boxes you buy you will not mitigate the variance of a bad box on average. In fact, its just as likely that you pull a box with LESS than the EV as you are to get one that's MORE than the EV. Individual cases will vary wildly of course but its pretty unlikely you will come out ahead with that strategy.

My apologies if I missed everyone's mark. Back to just reading now.

[H]

You may hit a streak and be up overall or hit a long shot "mythic" in the short run, but the longer you play the more there will be a "reversion to the mean" (if you will) and you will end up losing money. So, no, the more boxes you buy you will not mitigate the variance of a bad box on average. In fact, its just as likely that you pull a box with LESS than the EV as you are to get one that's MORE than the EV. Individual cases will vary wildly of course but its pretty unlikely you will come out ahead with that strategy.

Huh? You say that the more "chances" you take the more likely the series is to regress toward the mean value, correct? Ergo, one "chance" can be wildly off the mean, but the larger the set of chances, the more likely the series is the adhere to the mean. Of course each individual chance is the same chance every time. Your first box has the same statistical probability as the last one opened, and the same as the next one opened. My point wasn't to say that opening more boxes would guarantee "turning a profit" on any individual box. Rather, I was pointing out that if the mean value contained within a box is say $80, opening one box can vary from that significantly, in general. If you opened 80 boxes though, you are significantly more likely to average out the value of all things opened to $80 "per box." Is this not true?

[ronco]

Huh? You say that the more "chances" you take the more likely the series is to regress toward the mean value, correct? Ergo, one "chance" can be wildly off the mean, but the larger the set of chances, the more likely the series is the adhere to the mean. Of course each individual chance is the same chance every time. Your first box has the same statistical probability as the last one opened, and the same as the next one opened. My point wasn't to say that opening more boxes would guarantee "turning a profit" on any individual box. Rather, I was pointing out that if the mean value contained within a box is say $80, opening one box can vary from that significantly, in general. If you opened 80 boxes though, you are significantly more likely to average out the value of all things opened to $80 "per box." Is this not true?

Yes (not taking into the account of declining card prices due to increased supply). The point I was focusing on (and maybe i missed the context of it) was this:

Right, opening packs/boxes is almost always going to be net-negative EV, unless you can open enough to overcome the "randomness" of the distribution.

Its the second part of that I am either misunderstanding or was possibly worded poorly. But I interpreted that as saying if one bought a larger volume of product one would turn a profit because of getting the chase cards that buying a small amount of product wouldn't. So, my bad for the misunderstanding.

[H]

Its the second part of that I am either misunderstanding or was possibly worded poorly. But I interpreted that as saying if one bought a larger volume of product one would turn a profit because of getting the chase cards that buying a small amount of product wouldn't. So, my bad for the misunderstanding.

No, most likely that is my fault for explaining myself poorly. I wasn't being succinct enough in my terminology and so things get muddled. Which was why I didn't understand the criticism of it, because, in my mind, the phenomena I was explaining made perfect sense. What I expressed however, didn't reflect that and so didn't necessarily make sense.

My point was only that if you want to get "average" value over a series of box openings, opening more will "average out" the opened "value" of the series of boxes, the more you open, the more likely the series is to regress toward the mean, the more likely the series fits the average. In other words, greater number of openings means greater chance of an "average value" over the series. I mean, I do understand your subsequent point about the "value" not being set in stone though, but that is kind of beyond the scope of what I intended to discuss, as the "average value" will still be the "average value" even if it does decline, numerically, versus the purchase price or say MSRP (which is a "fixed" value).

I mean, I know I am not all that intelligent, but I have what I would consider (perhaps wrongly) a reasonable understanding of some things. Being able to express myself clearly, however, is not one of my better skills. Never has been and I probably am better than I was years ago, but it's a work-in-progress.

Thanks for taking the time to actually discover what we were not understanding about each other's point. Just saying "lol, idiot" is wildly fun, but not particularly helpful, except to maybe stoke someone's ego.

[morgan_coke]

I'd just like to point out that WotC does basically sell factory sets via MTGO redemption. They've recently started to put a curb in it, but for years now it's been pretty easy/cheap to pick up a full set of whatever you wanted, factory sealed, on eBay.

[Ahab]

Limited is great at the moment. Rivals was good, Dominaria was amazing, M19 is good, Ravnica looks promising.
I feel like a lot of discussion ignores this. Constructed in general is full of hyper-focused optimized decks. For a lot of us, limited is the preferred way to play magic. Standard and modern events do fire in our LGS, but at most reach the numbers of two full draft pods. Limited is also great for people that have a job and don't want to spend too mauch time but still get some competitive matches in with competitive decks and not some budget "let's pretend this is valid" garbage. And every week I play a different deck. It's great! Maybe it could be better, but why fix what's not broken?
I think changing anything in a way that makes Limited worse would be an immense mistake.

[Brael]

Limited is also great for people that have a job and don't want to spend too mauch time but still get some competitive matches in with competitive decks and not some budget "let's pretend this is valid" garbage.


Most people who have time consuming jobs are able to afford any constructed decks they want. Magic is not that expensive of a hobby compared to most other things professionals spend money on.

[Tylert]

Most people who have time consuming jobs are able to afford any constructed decks they want. Magic is not that expensive of a hobby compared to most other things professionals spend money on.

I have a job and a good salary with a 600K€ full paid house.
However, i will not spend money to play suboptimally once a week standard decks that will rotate next year :) I just don't like wasting money :)
So I play Limited every week :) (And legacy and/or Modern when i want some constructed magic, at least the deck are legals until the end of the world)

[Ahab]

Exactly, mtg may be cheap compared to Golf etc., but the necessary time investment to be competitive is huge, this is especially noticable because reading articles or watching videos of pros is time spent _not playing_ the game you actually want to improve in, and spent alone.
Limited is a nice, full mtg experience, as in cracking packs, deck building and playing. The atmosphere is casual but can be quite competitive in the final.

[Brael]

this is especially noticable because reading articles or watching videos of pros is time spent _not playing_


Videos and articles are not necessary to be competitive.

[Barook]

WotC, "Masters of Fucking Terrible PR"™:

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/brucerichard-10012018-the-prerelease-that-wasnt

Because taking away the prerelease from a bunch of children in a library is going to be received well. This is some Saturday morning cartoon villain shit right there, and I'm not even a friend of such sob stories.

[kinda]

WotC, "Masters of Fucking Terrible PR"™:

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/brucerichard-10012018-the-prerelease-that-wasnt

Because taking away the prerelease from a bunch of children in a library is going to be received well. This is some Saturday morning cartoon villain shit right there, and I'm not even a friend of such sob stories.

This is truly dissapointing.

[ThomasDowd]

Can we all agree that this is great though?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1365240#online

[the Thin White Duke]

This is truly dissapointing.

Whoa, lame. This kind of stuff softens the blow of my recent firesale of my Magic collection. I've was saving Magic stuff to teach my kids to play, but instead I've been lately collecting old Decipher Star Wars CCG cards "for them" to play (anyone have cards they don't need?:laugh:). Plus my kids love Star Wars, so theme ftw.
The irony here is that a partially non-existent company who lost their license 17 years ago offer almost as much tournament support as WotC for Magic.

[Ronald Deuce]

WotC, "Masters of Fucking Terrible PR"™:

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/brucerichard-10012018-the-prerelease-that-wasnt

Because taking away the prerelease from a bunch of children in a library is going to be received well. This is some Saturday morning cartoon villain shit right there, and I'm not even a friend of such sob stories.

It's like they're trying to get me to forego buying packs.

[Meekrab]

Can we all agree that this is great though?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1365240#online
I saw this over the weekend and had to throw it together for some games. :D

[morgan_coke]

WotC, "Masters of Fucking Terrible PR"™:

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/brucerichard-10012018-the-prerelease-that-wasnt

Because taking away the prerelease from a bunch of children in a library is going to be received well. This is some Saturday morning cartoon villain shit right there, and I'm not even a friend of such sob stories.

Man, that's bad even for WotC.

[Bithlord]

I've been lately collecting old Decipher Star Wars CCG cards "for them" to play (anyone have cards they don't need?:laugh:).

God damn now theres a great game that I would straight up murder someone to have FFg re-release as an LCG.

To be fair, the "tournament support" offered on SW:CCG is from the players committee, which is a wholly independent group unaffiliated with Decipher.

[Barook]

Man, that's bad even for WotC.
Especially ironic, given that they used said library thing for good PR years earlier. Links to said articles were even sent to the customer support answer. I'm baffled how you can fuck up that badly, even when it's WotC we're talking about.

[the Thin White Duke]

God damn now theres a great game that I would straight up murder someone to have FFg re-release as an LCG.

To be fair, the "tournament support" offered on SW:CCG is from the players committee, which is a wholly independent group unaffiliated with Decipher.

I apologize, you're correct. Which makes it worse because a bunch of volunteers (I don't believe the individuals get paid by Decipher) organize tournaments in the US and Europe and offer prize support.
Apples to oranges, but we seem to enjoy kicking Wizards when they're down, right?