The current state of Magic

[rufus]

... but we seem to enjoy kicking Wizards when they're down, right?

Mostly, people want WotC to be better.

[ReAnimator]

WotC, "Masters of Fucking Terrible PR"™:

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/brucerichard-10012018-the-prerelease-that-wasnt

Because taking away the prerelease from a bunch of children in a library is going to be received well. This is some Saturday morning cartoon villain shit right there, and I'm not even a friend of such sob stories.



Addendum!As a quick update, Wizards reached out to me the same day this article went live. They have offered to send product to make a tournament happen for the children at the library! They have also offered to help facilitate getting together with a new store. One of the difficulties in working with WPN stores is that allotments are based on previous prerelease numbers. If a store were to suddenly offer another prerelease and request 36 more prerelease packs, WPN would give a handful of packs, which would mean that their store would be very limited if I was to get 36. WPN has offered to help with the allotments, so everyone gets all the prerelease packs they need. This will go a long way to setting up the library for the next prerelease!
So, while WPN is still unwilling to change their guidelines, the children that were affected will not suffer! I’ll be sure to post pictures after the tournament is run!


Thank fuck, cause this was beyond idiotic.

[Lemnear]

WotC, "Masters of Fucking Terrible PR"™:

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/brucerichard-10012018-the-prerelease-that-wasnt

Because taking away the prerelease from a bunch of children in a library is going to be received well. This is some Saturday morning cartoon villain shit right there, and I'm not even a friend of such sob stories.

Not keen on playing the part of devils advocate here, but getting WPN status without the requirements in the first place, (or lying about it) is a very questionable thing as well, especially if it was for the sole purpose of making more money by gaining access to limited WotC products like FtV & more. To me, these special products and the extra money store owners can earn, are in a direct relation with the tournament/play space these owners provide and pay rent for.

This seems to be a store which HAPPENS to sell MTG products among other stuff just like Walmart, Spielemax & Co do, with players having to pick their stuff up and play elsewhere. Should they grant them WPN too?

[Barook]

Not keen on playing the part of devils advocate here, but getting WPN status without the requirements in the first place, (or lying about it) is a very questionable thing as well, especially if it was for the sole purpose of making more money by gaining access to limited WotC products like FtV & more. To me, these special products and the extra money store owners can earn, are in a direct relation with the tournament/play space these owners provide and pay rent for.

This seems to be a store which HAPPENS to sell MTG products among other stuff just like Walmart, Spielemax & Co do, with players having to pick their stuff up and play elsewhere. Should they grant them WPN too?
The whole WPN status thing is stupid in the first place since WotC's "one fits all" approach just doesn't work in many places outside the US, especially in Europe. Throwing a bone here and there isn't going to make shops going to compete with Amazon.

[Ronald Deuce]

Can we all agree that this is great though?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1365240#online

The Spice must flow.

EDIT: Sounds like the issue was resolved. One wonders whether organizers who don't fight that hard and don't take to the Interwebs have any luck with the WPN, though.

[Lemnear]

The whole WPN status thing is stupid in the first place since WotC's "one fits all" approach just doesn't work in many places outside the US, especially in Europe. Throwing a bone here and there isn't going to make shops going to compete with Amazon.

It depends on if Amazon, Walmart, etc sells FtV for a more reasonable price and higher numbers unlike many shops do. Getting 4 FtV packs at their release without paying a premium because small/local shops wanna cash in? Any day of the week for me.

These special products and the whole WPN stuff is nothing but a bone WotC throws for shops which offer players space to play. Sort of a way to "pay" them like they do with Judges and their promos. People get special products/printings and sell these for cash.

[Humphrey]

I remember my old LGS kept the valuable FNM Promos and sold them for cash while handing out the low value ones and no price packs. He also sold the Prerelease T-Shirts and Mats.

[Tylert]

I remember my old LGS kept the valuable FNM Promos and sold them for cash while handing out the low value ones and no price packs. He also sold the Prerelease T-Shirts and Mats.

You can warn WotC directly about that if it ever happens again. They would take actions to stop that.

[thecrav]

You can warn WotC directly about that if it ever happens again. They would take actions to stop that.

Part of the problem is that no one wants to report their stores; it's better to play at a bad store than to have no store to play at.

[Tylert]

Part of the problem is that no one wants to report their stores; it's better to play at a bad store than to have no store to play at.

Can't a bad store become a good store? :)

[Bithlord]

You can warn WotC directly about that if it ever happens again. They would take actions to stop that.

The LGS in my tiny college town was banned form running sanctioned events in the early 2000's for this. You know what happened? Literally nothing. They were still the only store within 100 miles (literally), and they charged the exact same amount for the events... just without promos.

Areas like that are what WPN restrictions hurt the most, because a college MTG club *can't* run events since they aren't a store, and so you have one place to play sanctioned events. If that place gets hosed, then... no more sanctioned events.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Can't a bad store become a good store? :)

Stores only go bad. Can't think of an instance of the opposite.

[Lemnear]

I remember my old LGS kept the valuable FNM Promos and sold them for cash while handing out the low value ones and no price packs. He also sold the Prerelease T-Shirts and Mats.

Yeah, saw that happen in several occasions in Germany as well tbh.

[Barook]

Like any type of GP coverage aside from Top 8 results? Well, too bad:

https://twitter.com/magicprotour/status/1089361097860120576

Cost-cutting at its finest. But hey, Magic is an eSport!

[pettdan]

@Barook: maybe I misunderstand your comment, but they are only claiming to reduce the Twitter coverage, from what I can tell. Edit: ah, they mentioned their site too, which I guess you mean includes the stream.

[Lemnear]

Like any type of GP coverage aside from Top 8 results? Well, too bad:

https://twitter.com/magicprotour/status/1089361097860120576

Cost-cutting at its finest. But hey, Magic is an eSport!

I think "eSports" is the key term. They focus on Arena for promotion and coverage now after they chopped down LIVE event coverage time and time again. If CF, SCG and other partners for GPs would not jump in filling the void WotC left, there wouldn't be any big live tournaments at all anymore. I sometimes think all WotCs adds for these events is sanctioning them in exchange for CF, SCG & Co moving a shitload of WotC products via drafts and more. WotC never understood tournaments, its coverage and paying pros as a form of marketing which is mandatory for the game, the compeditive drive and player starpower.

[thecrav]

Like any type of GP coverage aside from Top 8 results? Well, too bad:

https://twitter.com/magicprotour/status/1089361097860120576

Cost-cutting at its finest. But hey, Magic is an eSport!

Coverage of the events I run at a brewery while drinking is more in depth than this.

[pettdan]

Just found this through the Swedish MtG site, like I thought WotC's comment was not related to all coverage, only text-based coverage.

"Blake Rasmussen explained that the Magic Pro Tour’s response on Twitter only applied to 'round-by-round live text coverage of events,' which will no longer be live. Instead, as stated on Twitter, the remaining text coverage—including decklists, Top 8 bios, pairings, and standings—will be posted at the end of the event.

As for video coverage, Wizards emphasized that they, 'did not announce anything regarding video coverage and we aren’t announcing anything about it at this time.' However, Wizards wouldn’t confirm when (or if) the next Grand Prix would be streamed, only saying that, 'Besides Mythic Championships/the Mythic Invitational, we have not announced our streaming schedule for the year yet.'"

From Hipsters of the coast's web site:
https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2019/01/controversy-erupts-over-lack-of-coverage-for-gp-new-jersey-mtg/

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Coverage of the events I run at a brewery while drinking is more in depth than this.

Need more events like this.

[CptHaddock]

Lmao

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/algqs9/channelfireball_to_take_over_text_coverage_for/

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/almhz3/did_wizards_of_the_coast_just_let_go_50_of_the/

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/als98o/the_mtg_arena_mythic_invitational/

The only redeeming part of this that is that the invitational announcement caused Hoogland to have a meltdown on twitter.

[thecrav]

Lmao

The only redeeming part of this that is that the invitational announcement caused Hoogland to have a meltdown on twitter.

You can't say things like this and not include screenshots.

[CptHaddock]

You can't say things like this and not include screenshots.

Dang, guess it wasn't as big of a meltdown as I remembered it.

https://i.imgur.com/fbpbVD7.png

[Ronald Deuce]

Why didn't they invite me, either? It's insulting. I play Magic. I use the Internet.

[CptHaddock]

Why didn't they invite me, either? It's insulting. I play Magic. I use the Internet.

Same, I am literally shaking with rage rn.

[Barook]

I never heard of like 2/3 of the invitees. Who the fuck are those people? :confused: Meanwhile, they're missing people like Caleb Durward, who pulls thousands of viewers, won the first streamer Arena invitational and even plays Arena.

But then again, it's pretty entertaining to watch WotC shooting themselves in the foot again. Just because they enjoy some success with Arena right now, they become megalomaniac. All these changes will backfire sooner or later.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Same, I am literally shaking with rage rn.
http://images.wildammo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/eQTpM.gif

[Ronald Deuce]

Same, I am literally shaking with rage rn.

I just can't—

Think of all the invaluable content I've provided.

Brb; gonna go exercise with Ace. Gotta blow off some steam.

[ThomasDowd]

it seems to me that these people are being rewarded for building a social media following. I guess that's it. some " legit qualified" via some method( i didn't read that much of it) but the rest seem to me like " they have our brand in mind so we'll give them a shot to win some money and increase their brand" (and therefore our brand)

my take: essentially its a 1 million pr move at first glance. also other bad opinion: this is like modern marketing 101 reductionist version.

pps there were on my soft guess probably a good 6-10 hours of meetings curating that invitee list if y'all want to get more salty about it. probably centered around market cross section exposure.

I'm naturally a cynic though so take what i say with grains of salt

[JDK]

it seems to me that these people are being rewarded for building a social media following. I guess that's it.

Yep, that's why those girlstreamers with under 1000 Followers are invited...or the one without a Twitch Account before the list was published. Rewarded indeed.

[JosefK]

I think it's a good selection for a promotional invitational. I have no clue who most of the people on the list are (even of those in the mpl) but i think it's good that they try to diversify it a bit. The best 32 players will still be there so it's fine.
BUT i must say i would have liked if they had thrown in Richard Garfield as one of the invites, maybe even made a special thing about 1 stream following him through the tournament ("The Creator Cam"). Had been really cool watching that. I guess internet would whine about "herp derp Garfield stealing pros money". But internet always whines.

[H]

Well, I don't particularly like Hoogland either, so...

But you guys still imagine there are objective standards to Wizards decisions. I just don't know how to help you at this point.

[tescrin]

Same, I am literally shaking with rage rn.


http://images.wildammo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/eQTpM.gif

lmao, this board got a lot better since I was last on

[GoblinZ]

Well, I don't particularly like Hoogland either, so...

But you guys still imagine there are objective standards to Wizards decisions. I just don't know how to help you at this point.

I still remember he rudely flipped his opponent's tarmogoyf on the table at SCG open or invitational.

[H]

I still remember he rudely flipped his opponent's tarmogoyf on the table at SCG open or invitational.

I just generally find his manner, personality, temperament, and attitude rather unpleasant. Anecdotes like that though point to my hunch being pretty justified though.

[MGB]

I don't like Jeff Hoogland either. I don't find the appeal at all. He's like an annoying super-geek.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Also he's a colossal baby.

[Dice_Box]

People pay him to play shit decks, so when I want to see something like Modern Whir played 4 weeks before anyone else knows it exists, he is my guy. But I am there for the deck, if someone else had gameplay up I would watch them too.

[Megadeus]

People pay him to play shit decks, so when I want to see something like Modern Whir played 4 weeks before anyone else knows it exists, he is my guy. But I am there for the deck, if someone else had gameplay up I would watch them too.
Yeah everyone else at this point seems to be playing standard or drafting on arena so often he's the only streamer not doing that

[Barook]

Caleb Durward is now part of the Mythic Invitational. Good decision.

On a different note: New survey link is up (https://survey.marketpointsinc.com/wc0219gb1/REDDIT)

Best question:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DypJHKlXcAE4wD5.jpg:large

I answered "No" because there's no coherent plan behind what WotC is doing - how are they going to do esports when they don't even stream their esport events (Magic Fests are officially labeld "esports" instead of TCG by WotC now)? :really:

[thecrav]

Magic Fests are officially labeld "esports" instead of TCG by WotC now

Ah yes, E for Electronic.

Nothing more E-sporty than a competition that specifically bans the use of electronics.

Oscar: You can't just say bankruptcy esport and have it be true
Michael: I didn't say it. I declared it.

[CptHaddock]

Ah yes, E for Electronic.

Nothing more E-sporty than a competition that specifically bans the use of electronics.

Oscar: You can't just say bankruptcy esport and have it be true
Michael: I didn't say it. I declared it.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Nothing screams "e-sports" to me more than trying to figure out what is going in a match between glare, card sleeves and anime art while at the same time listening to Marshall Sutcliffe try to validate why he was given the position of a commentator when he clearly has no experience with the format being covered.

:smile:

[H]

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Nothing screams "e-sports" to me more than trying to figure out what is going in a match between glare, card sleeves and anime art while at the same time listening to Marshall Sutcliffe try to validate why he was given the position of a commentator when he clearly has no experience with the format being covered.

:smile:

There are plenty of words that start with the letter E (https://www.bestwordlist.com/d/e/1/wordsbeginninge.htm), lets not be pedantic and insist it means what we all already know it means.

Here is a random selection of alternatives to get you started: echopraxia, endeixis, erotesis, or (and this is the best one in this selection) euonymous.

[CptHaddock]

There are plenty of words that start with the letter E (https://www.bestwordlist.com/d/e/1/wordsbeginninge.htm), lets not be pedantic and insist it means what we all already know it means.

Here is a random selection of alternatives to get you started: echopraxia, endeixis, erotesis, or (and this is the best one in this selection) euonymous.

Stop cheating at scrabble my dude.

[Ronald Deuce]

Stop cheating at scrabble my dude.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-6w33CS_PM

[Ace/Homebrew]

New survey link is up (https://survey.marketpointsinc.com/wc0219gb1/REDDIT)
Thanks! :cool:

[phonics]

There are plenty of words that start with the letter E (https://www.bestwordlist.com/d/e/1/wordsbeginninge.htm), lets not be pedantic and insist it means what we all already know it means.

Here is a random selection of alternatives to get you started: echopraxia, endeixis, erotesis, or (and this is the best one in this selection) euonymous.

esport as in entertainment sport (eg wwe), much like how the pro tour is the promotional tour, despite what wotc says.

[H]

esport as in entertainment sport (eg wwe), much like how the pro tour is the promotional tour, despite what wotc says.

Magic is neither an actual Esport (defined as everyone knows) nor an "entertainment sport" as that is defined. It's a game.

Not to mention, both Esports and "entertainment sport" are pretty much just bullshit terms that attempt to engender "legitimacy" by banking on a culturally accepted types of "game."

So, yeah, I feel pretty good about my initial sarcastic response. (Despite "misspelling that last word, but whatever.)

[NecroPoppins]

Anyone trying to argue that the E in Esports is anything but electronic is deluding themselves and reaching.

Also Wizards has made the wrong decisions in almost everything for the past ten years. From events, to art (their art direction went to community college), to support. Almost everything.

With the exceptions of making the game appeal to the lowest common denominator and their pumping out master sets and overall bloating of retail prices while cutting quality and cost to the bone. This is the only thing keeping them around. As long as normies and magictcg gobble up the cheap paper printed memes by the boatload (and they will) the ivory tower at seattle will survive despite its retardation in every other department.

[Barook]

Nowdays, esports is just a term for corporate suits for a thing that magically prints money, kinda like radiation giving you superpowers or nanomachines doing all kind of silly things in fiction:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyruJ7YW0AI6IxH.jpg:large

[morgan_coke]

Nowdays, esports is just a term for corporate suits for a thing that magically prints money, kinda like radiation giving you superpowers or nanomachines doing all kind of silly things in fiction:


The best thing about esports in multiplayer games is it forces the devs to balance the game around 14 year olds with no life and the fast twitch reflexes of a super-computer. Which in turn makes playing the game suck for the regular folks who don't have any of that bullshit but DO provide 100% of the actual revenue.

Can't wait to see that garbage get dumpstered already.

[phonics]

Magic is neither an actual Esport (defined as everyone knows) nor an "entertainment sport" as that is defined. It's a game.

Not to mention, both Esports and "entertainment sport" are pretty much just bullshit terms that attempt to engender "legitimacy" by banking on a culturally accepted types of "game."

So, yeah, I feel pretty good about my initial sarcastic response. (Despite "misspelling that last word, but whatever.)

I didnt intend my post to come across as serious, though not as sarcastic as your suggestions, its just that wotc naming conventions (between this and magicfests) make little sense regardless.

[H]

I didnt intend my post to come across as serious, though not as sarcastic as your suggestions, its just that wotc naming conventions (between this and magicfests) make little sense regardless.

Well, I half figured it wasn't serious, but I figured just in case. I actually have a very narrow definition of what I consider a "sport" so labeling video games as a sport already gets me agitated, let alone the general marketing proclivity to add in all sort of obviously non-sport activities. That's marketing for you though...

[CptHaddock]

I see that the GP this weekend is going well.

https://twitter.com/Rose0fthorns/status/1096504297309855750

[Zombie]

Well, I half figured it wasn't serious, but I figured just in case. I actually have a very narrow definition of what I consider a "sport" so labeling video games as a sport already gets me agitated, let alone the general marketing proclivity to add in all sort of obviously non-sport activities. That's marketing for you though...

I gag a little every time I read the words "e-sports athlete".

[Lemnear]

I see that the GP this weekend is going well.

https://twitter.com/Rose0fthorns/status/1096504297309855750

Wait ... what? Is there a tournament on a construction site or how is that possible?

[Barook]

Wait ... what? Is there a tournament on a construction site or how is that possible?
https://twitter.com/ednguyen13/status/1096523242905448450

[Lemnear]

https://twitter.com/ednguyen13/status/1096523242905448450

Utterly hilarious. Thanks for having my back, mate

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I gag a little every time I read the words "e-sports athlete".

Seconded.

[taconaut]

Well, I half figured it wasn't serious, but I figured just in case. I actually have a very narrow definition of what I consider a "sport" so labeling video games as a sport already gets me agitated, let alone the general marketing proclivity to add in all sort of obviously non-sport activities. That's marketing for you though...


I gag a little every time I read the words "e-sports athlete".

I never understood this prejudice. I suppose it makes less sense for Magic, where there isn't a physical component really, but I think it's pretty reasonable to consider, say, Overwatch League players, or League of Legends players, as "athletes" or competing in a sport.

Fundamentally, what they're doing is employing knowledge/reaction time/positioning/etc to win a competition with other players. They spend long hours training, and it's clear that not everyone can do it. What makes that any different from any shooting sports, for instance? Driving? Could either of you two make it as a professional Fortnite player?

Magic is just associating itself with that context in terms of "games you can stream," which I also think is reasonable use, even if it doesn't have the coordination component that something like a shooter or MOBA does.

[Zombie]

I never understood this prejudice. I suppose it makes less sense for Magic, where there isn't a physical component really, but I think it's pretty reasonable to consider, say, Overwatch League players, or League of Legends players, as "athletes" or competing in a sport.

Fundamentally, what they're doing is employing knowledge/reaction time/positioning/etc to win a competition with other players. They spend long hours training, and it's clear that not everyone can do it. What makes that any different from any shooting sports, for instance? Driving? Could either of you two make it as a professional Fortnite player?

Magic is just associating itself with that context in terms of "games you can stream," which I also think is reasonable use, even if it doesn't have the coordination component that something like a shooter or MOBA does.

I mean, I play those games more than Magic, and it's still ridiculous. I'm not demeaning the actual competition, I wouldn't play the games and be hooked on the competition otherwise. But just call competitive gaming what it is, and professional gamers what they are. Esports is, to quote fighting game commentator David Graham "an incredibly sad, self denying, misguided attempt to borrow legitimacy from the world of traditional sports." or "You know the only thing we’re opposed to? The word “esports.” Shit is straight clown shoes son, for reals."

Pretty much sums up my opinion on it. The games are good, the competition is there and people even want to watch it and are willing to pay money for the priviledge. You're legitimate to begin with, why ape something else?

[morgan_coke]

https://twitter.com/ednguyen13/status/1096523242905448450

That is SO Wizards. ROFL.

[taconaut]

I'm not demeaning the actual competition, I wouldn't play the games and be hooked on the competition otherwise. But just call competitive gaming what it is, and professional gamers what they are. "You know the only thing we’re opposed to? The word “esports.” Shit is straight clown shoes son, for reals."

Pretty much sums up my opinion on it. The games are good, the competition is there and people even want to watch it and are willing to pay money for the priviledge. You're legitimate to begin with, why ape something else?

"I like this thing, but I'm mad about what they call it?" :confused:

Maybe they get better reactions when they bill it as a sport. Many of the trappings are the same (regional teams, jerseys, merchandise, "televised" events, etc), it's really not all that different.

I dunno, it's just that the whole "video games aren't REAL sports" argument sounds a lot like the "dang these millenials and their snapchat and their avocado toast" assertions that are really just a lot of hand wringing/performative complaining. Let people like what they like.

[Watersaw]

I mean, I play those games more than Magic, and it's still ridiculous. I'm not demeaning the actual competition, I wouldn't play the games and be hooked on the competition otherwise. But just call competitive gaming what it is, and professional gamers what they are. Esports is, to quote fighting game commentator David Graham "an incredibly sad, self denying, misguided attempt to borrow legitimacy from the world of traditional sports." or "You know the only thing we’re opposed to? The word “esports.” Shit is straight clown shoes son, for reals."

Pretty much sums up my opinion on it. The games are good, the competition is there and people even want to watch it and are willing to pay money for the priviledge. You're legitimate to begin with, why ape something else?

I feel like there's an implication that calling something a "game" isn't good enough. But if you say it's a E-Sport suddenly you have legitimacy. The whole thing feels like an insult to the medium.

Anyway Hemmingway was right. The only real sports are bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering.

[niv]

"I like this thing, but I'm mad about what they call it?" :confused:

Maybe they get better reactions when they bill it as a sport. Many of the trappings are the same (regional teams, jerseys, merchandise, "televised" events, etc), it's really not all that different.

I dunno, it's just that the whole "video games aren't REAL sports" argument sounds a lot like the "dang these millenials and their snapchat and their avocado toast" assertions that are really just a lot of hand wringing/performative complaining. Let people like what they like.

Competing in video games is much more like competing in something like Poker, if you ask me. Folks don't like it because it warps the meaning of the word "sport". A sport is generally defined as "an athletic activity requiring skill and/or physical prowess". Furthermore, an "athlete" (i.e. one who participates in a sport) is "one who is trained (or gifted) in exercises/contests requiring speed, strength agility..."

Of course, I don't think anyone is debating that any sort of professional gaming does not require skill. The debate is that it does NOT require any sort of physical prowess to be good at. There are other sets of skills that are needed (and some may overlap with what are needed in sports) but the requirement of physical activity is generally absent. I really think that calling professional gaming a 'sport' is a marring of the word. Again, it's not the greatest example, but I've never heard anyone call professional poker a sport, and I feel like there's more similarities between video gaming and poker than any actual (physical) sport out there. Furthermore, I think the negative reaction is due quite a bit to this, and the fact that the word is (or was) arguably being misused to either prop up the legitimacy (though, I think, we are somewhat past the point where the legitimacy of a professional gaming enterprise is questionable), or just for visibility/easier ad revenue. Either way, the word is simply being misused, no matter how one spins it.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If you don't spend time in the gym, it's not a sport.

[H]

I never understood this prejudice. I suppose it makes less sense for Magic, where there isn't a physical component really, but I think it's pretty reasonable to consider, say, Overwatch League players, or League of Legends players, as "athletes" or competing in a sport.

The issue is that if we use the word sport to include any "game" then what is the difference between the two words? If the answer is nothing, then we have really reductively destroyed the concept of both things. If we broaden the scope of sport so far, at what point does it end? Is competitive thinking a sport? If we consider that I must breathe to do so, some physical activity is also taking place in my brain, right? We quickly reach the level of absurdity.

A sport is a particular type of game. A game is not a particular type of sport.

This is discriminatory, in the same way that squares are particular types of rectangles, but rectangles are not particular types of squares. Now, if you decide, on behalf of all squares to disabuse everyone of the such bias against rectangles at the hands of "Squarists," well, be my guest but note that there is no real bias on my part as to the intrinsic value of "squareness."


Fundamentally, what they're doing is employing knowledge/reaction time/positioning/etc to win a competition with other players. They spend long hours training, and it's clear that not everyone can do it. What makes that any different from any shooting sports, for instance? Driving? Could either of you two make it as a professional Fortnite player?

Absolutely not. I can't even cut it as a make-believe, half-assed Magic player. But that has nothing to do with the definition of "sport." There are any number of things which you could do that require skill. Carpentry, for example. Does that mean that any carpenter is also an athlete? No, certainly not. And there is no way I can contort my definition of "athlete" to be "anyone do does anything involving physical activity." That is so broad as to be meaningless. Then, here, breathing and typing this response means I am an "athlete." Absurd, to me.

Note: I don't consider driving a sport. At all. Not NASCAR or whatever, unless you are a car. Shooting sports? Doesn't seem like a sport either, honestly. Do those things require skill? Of course. So does playing a piano. Can't buy that as "athletics" though either.


I dunno, it's just that the whole "video games aren't REAL sports" argument sounds a lot like the "dang these millenials and their snapchat and their avocado toast" assertions that are really just a lot of hand wringing/performative complaining. Let people like what they like.

Note, you added the qualifier of "real" there, not me. When did I say people shouldn't like any thing? When did I lampoon anyone's personal taste?

It's also quite funny, because you notice I have many posts here, but I am biased against games? Really?

If I said, "I have created a new sport, it is competitively discussing things on an online forum and I am it's first athlete." To which you replied, "That doesn't seem like a sport at all and it's unclear why that would considered to be athletic." I would then say, "I really can't see why you complain so much and are against me liking what I like." :rolleyes:


I feel like there's an implication that calling something a "game" isn't good enough. But if you say it's a E-Sport suddenly you have legitimacy. The whole thing feels like an insult to the medium.

Anyway Hemmingway was right. The only real sports are bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering.

It's marketing, plain and simple. The general public as culturally informed views on why "sport" is a legitimized form of game. Ergo, you cavort the word to use it's preconceived association.


Competing in video games is much more like competing in something like Poker, if you ask me. Folks don't like it because it warps the meaning of the word "sport". A sport is generally defined as "an athletic activity requiring skill and/or physical prowess". Furthermore, an "athlete" (i.e. one who participates in a sport) is "one who is trained (or gifted) in exercises/contests requiring speed, strength agility..."

Of course, I don't think anyone is debating that any sort of professional gaming does not require skill. The debate is that it does NOT require any sort of physical prowess to be good at. There are other sets of skills that are needed (and some may overlap with what are needed in sports) but the requirement of physical activity is generally absent. I really think that calling professional gaming a 'sport' is a marring of the word. Again, it's not the greatest example, but I've never heard anyone call professional poker a sport, and I feel like there's more similarities between video gaming and poker than any actual (physical) sport out there. Furthermore, I think the negative reaction is due quite a bit to this, and the fact that the word is (or was) arguably being misused to either prop up the legitimacy (though, I think, we are somewhat past the point where the legitimacy of a professional gaming enterprise is questionable), or just for visibility/easier ad revenue. Either way, the word is simply being misused, no matter how one spins it.

Yeah, pretty much exactly this. Games and sports are not identical. If you are a professional gamer, good for you. If you are a professional athlete (note, that is the word for person engaged in sport), good for you too. You want to ascribe a value judgement on either? Good for you as well.

However, we who simply assert that they are necessarily different things implies no bias except a bias for maintaining the integrity of nomenclature. Play games if you want. Play sports if you want. But don't decide that a game is a sport just because you decided you like that word better. At least, do that if you want, but don't expect everyone to buy flimsy rational behind it.

[Zombie]

"I like this thing, but I'm mad about what they call it?" :confused:

Maybe they get better reactions when they bill it as a sport. Many of the trappings are the same (regional teams, jerseys, merchandise, "televised" events, etc), it's really not all that different.

I dunno, it's just that the whole "video games aren't REAL sports" argument sounds a lot like the "dang these millenials and their snapchat and their avocado toast" assertions that are really just a lot of hand wringing/performative complaining. Let people like what they like.

Well, it can be that for someone. For me it's just a misuse of the word, and a sad attempt to borrow legitimacy from traditional sports. Definitely don't mean to put it down, if anything the opposite: It's good enough to be legit on its own. I've never gotten so hyped as I have watching some amazing matches in bloody videogames. It's good stuff, but calling folk fiddling with mice "e-sports athletes" is clownshoes like as UltraDavid put it.

I mean, stuff like this stands for itself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TonV5PiMyPo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mplrgn1hHlw

First one of those especially was some of the hypest shit ever.

[CptHaddock]

Lmao @ nerds defending the concept of "e-sports". Can someone post the top 8 from an American GP where everyone had neckbeards?

Oh wait that is every American GP top 8.

[taconaut]

My point with this is that whatever distinction you choose to make between them is wholly arbitrary, and things like high-level shooters and MOBAs demand exceptional physical abilities, even if the specific list of them doesn't include "running." It's important to increase the legitimacy of it, even if you think it's distinct from sport, because there are people that deride it for no reason other than, "oh it's just video games, lol @ nerds."


A sport is generally defined as "an athletic activity requiring skill and/or physical prowess". Furthermore, an "athlete" (i.e. one who participates in a sport) is "one who is trained (or gifted) in exercises/contests requiring speed, strength agility..."

Hand eye coordination? Teamwork? Communication? Dexterity?

The debate is that it does NOT require any sort of physical prowess to be good at.

There's clearly physical prowess there, even if it's not "aerobic." That distinction is arbitrary.

Again, it's not the greatest example, but I've never heard anyone call professional poker a sport, and I feel like there's more similarities between video gaming and poker than any actual (physical) sport out there.

Yes, in the case of Magic, I think "Sport" is a stretch. However, "eSport," in the sense of, "competitive game you can watch online," is perfectly legitimate, and not an abuse.

Though, I think, we are somewhat past the point where the legitimacy of a professional gaming enterprise is questionable.

I don't think it is, and that is the crux of my argument. People still making arbitrary disctinctions about competition are why professional games are still looking upon with derision - my coworkers can't perceive the parallels between watching the League finals and watching the NFL, despite the fact that they are both teams of dudes playing a game. Just because some of the dudes are big and run doesn't mean the other guys don't dedicate themselves, train, etc and provide entertainment.




If you don't spend time in the gym, it's not a sport.

They do scrims, they work together, practice moves, etc. Why is that any different?

There are plenty of people who make fun of professional gaming as an enterprise that like to hunt, and plenty of them sure as heck don't go to the gym before they go sit in their tree stand or boat and shoot deer.



However, we who simply assert that they are necessarily different things implies no bias except a bias for maintaining the integrity of nomenclature. Play games if you want. Play sports if you want. But don't decide that a game is a sport just because you decided you like that word better. At least, do that if you want, but don't expect everyone to buy flimsy rational behind it.

You're trying to have it both ways, though.

"It's important that we call each thing what it is, because the definitions of the words matter, and they are different."

"There's no difference in legitimacy between sports and games, play what you like."

The point of branding it as "eSports" is that it acknowledges the level of skill and dedication required to play on that stage. As fans of games, you and I understand that these streams are high-stakes and not just anyone can be on there, but there are still people who don't understand it isn't just random nerds in their basement. If those properties want to expand their audience, and capture some of the people who might watch the NFL but not the OWL, they might find it useful to take cues from franchises that are already successful.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

There are plenty of people who make fun of professional gaming as an enterprise that like to hunt, and plenty of them sure as heck don't go to the gym before they go sit in their tree stand or boat and shoot deer.

And if those hunters wanted to turn pro they'd go to the gym. It's ok duder, Nerds are cool now you don't have to pretend your hobby is a sport to have fun with it. No one's gonna bully you over it anymore.

[CptHaddock]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/361/738/f8e.jpg

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/361/738/f8e.jpg

They're just missing Fadoras.

[H]

You're trying to have it both ways, though.

"It's important that we call each thing what it is, because the definitions of the words matter, and they are different."

"There's no difference in legitimacy between sports and games, play what you like."

The point of branding it as "eSports" is that it acknowledges the level of skill and dedication required to play on that stage. As fans of games, you and I understand that these streams are high-stakes and not just anyone can be on there, but there are still people who don't understand it isn't just random nerds in their basement. If those properties want to expand their audience, and capture some of the people who might watch the NFL but not the OWL, they might find it useful to take cues from franchises that are already successful.

I'm not trying to have anything "both ways" though. The nomenclature and the "legitimacy" are not one thing. Sports might be considered by many people more "legitimate" but that is not an intrinsic quality, that is a cultural valuation. The "problem" is that no one really would take a game that as arbitrarily been renamed a sport "more seriously" because calling something doesn't make it so.

I am willing to speculate that no one, and almost certainly almost no one, would consider a game more legitimate simply because someone slapped a label that says "sport" on it. You either feel like games have intrinsic value, as such, or you don't. Some people find that sports, even traditionally defined, have no intrinsic value, as a matter of fact. Some one these people are the same ones who value games, as such. So, no, it isn't just an issue of nomenclature that gives us the valuation, it's our personal values.

So, marketing thinks it can put the cart before the horse and go on it's merry way, but it doesn't work like that. People who have a contempt for games do so, not because they aren't called sports, but because the intrinsic valuation of the constitute defining elements. They don't value sports because they are called sports. That is absurd. So, attempting to "rebrand" something as such is absurd as marketing deciding that chocolate cakes sell better than vanilla ones, so let's just call both chocolate and they'll be equal in the eyes of consumers, right? I mean, what is the flavor of chocolate anyway, but a mere sensation we can't define with objective certainly. So, here at Nonsese Cake Factory, we want you to know that all flavors take skill and effort to make and we don't want your intrinsic valuation to cloud you in thinking that one might have intrinsic properties the other doesn't.

It's also nonsensical to think that people like traditional sport solely for the fact that they require skill. Although could be a part of some people's enjoyment, another part of sport that appeals to people is the simplicity, prima facie. The world's most popular sport, football (AKA soccer for us more contemptible), is fantastically simple. Just kick this here ball into that there net and don't use your hands doing so. Out of that rises a much more interesting game (for most people, not us Yanks). And that is a key to it's success. The same reason why people decry so-and-so's "terrible" play, despite that fact that there is essentially a zero percent chance the arm-chair commentator could have been on the field in the first place, let alone been able to make the "right call" in the moment.

Why doesn't Magic have the same appeal? Because it is much less intuitive, much harder to conceptualize and with it's fantasy styling, seems "childish" to people. Again, you can rail against that, but it is what it is. And none of that is mitigated by simply calling something a sport. It goes the same for any other game that people attempt to "rebrand" as a sport. In fact, the very need to "reband" tells you all you really need to know about it's very nature. No one "branded" football as a sport, it just is. If Magic was a sport, it would be, there wouldn't be a need to rebrand it, any more than you'd rebrand flavors of cake.

[H]

They're just missing Fadoras.

I own a fedora, and then idiots had to cavort and ruin it. Not that I was going to wear it often, but now there is no way to wear it ever.

Not to mention, Call of Duty 4? When I told our kids the last call of Duty I played was 2, they looked at me as if I told them I worked the Pyramids in Giza.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I own a fedora, and then idiots had to cavort and ruin it. Not that I was going to wear it often, but now there is no way to wear it ever.

Not to mention, Call of Duty 4? When I told our kids the last call of Duty I played was 2, they looked at me as if I told them I worked the Pyramids in Giza.

Unless you're over 55 the fedora was ruined before you were born.

[H]

Unless you're over 55 the fedora was ruined before you were born.

Yeah, likely, I just didn't know, :cry:

[Ace/Homebrew]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/361/738/f8e.jpg
Ugh... I guess I'm this kind of gamer:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/19/15/57/1915579c249565f3999a88df982a0812.jpg

- Super Mario Bros 3
- Mega Man 2

[Barook]

eSports is horribly overused anyway. Hasbro even called D&D an eSport, for fucks sake.


Why doesn't Magic have the same appeal? Because it is much less intuitive, much harder to conceptualize and with it's fantasy styling, seems "childish" to people. Again, you can rail against that, but it is what it is. And none of that is mitigated by simply calling something a sport. It goes the same for any other game that people attempt to "rebrand" as a sport. In fact, the very need to "reband" tells you all you really need to know about it's very nature. No one "branded" football as a sport, it just is. If Magic was a sport, it would be, there wouldn't be a need to rebrand it, any more than you'd rebrand flavors of cake.
Obviously, the solution to the whole "Magic is not a sport" is motorcycles. Card games on motorcycles.

http://orig06.deviantart.net/59a1/f/2008/290/f/0/yugioh_5d__s_demotivator_by_endermon.jpg

On a more serious note:

WotC dropped the MSRP (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/no-more-msrp-2019-02-18)

You can fully expect price hikes rather sooner or later. Hasbro needs to whore out MtG some more considering the rest of their core business is horribly failing ever since Toys"R"Us went belly up.

[H]

eSports is horribly overused anyway. Hasbro even called D&D an eSport, for fucks sake.

This is largely my point. If the criterion for sport gets lowered so far that we use it for any activity, of what use is the word?


Obviously, the solution to the whole "Magic is not a sport" is motorcycles. Card games on motorcycles.

Well, that would certainly be something...


On a more serious note:

WotC dropped the MSRP (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/no-more-msrp-2019-02-18)

You can fully expect price hikes rather sooner or later. Hasbro needs to whore out MtG some more considering the rest of their core business is horribly failing ever since Toys"R"Us went belly up.

Well, I am definitely not knowledgeable enough to say, so what are the overall effects of this in the long term? Was MSRP really holding the price?

[PirateKing]

Well, I am definitely not knowledgeable enough to say, so what are the overall effects of this in the long term? Was MSRP really holding the price?

Worst case is it will let them distribute direct to Amazon and Walmart for different a different price point than smaller local shops, pushing their margins even narrower.

MSRP is really only an American thing, so more likely their aim is it'll let them distribute better in Europe and stuff. But it's not like any of the limited edition products were sold at MSRP anyway.

[niv]

My point with this is that whatever distinction you choose to make between them is wholly arbitrary
It's not, there are lines between what words mean. Just because you like using the phrase 'professional sport' more than 'professional gaming' doesn't change the meaning of the words themselves.


and things like high-level shooters and MOBAs demand exceptional physical abilities, even if the specific list of them doesn't include "running."
Again, I used several very specific traits that encompass the words 'Athletic' and 'Sport'. Right from a dictionary.


It's important to increase the legitimacy of it, even if you think it's distinct from sport, because there are people that deride it for no reason other than, "oh it's just video games, lol @ nerds."

Why is important? To who? I personally could care less This, frankly, sounds more like you projecting your insecurities onto others, as most here with real input haven't reduced it to 'running good gaming bad'


Hand eye coordination? Teamwork? Communication? Dexterity?
Again, I provided very specific examples of things that constitute athleticism. From a dictionary. Not that these things don't require skill, of course. But they are not athletic in nature.


There's clearly physical prowess there, even if it's not "aerobic." That distinction is arbitrary.
It's not arbitrary...again, it's directly from the dictionary.


Yes, in the case of Magic, I think "Sport" is a stretch. However, "eSport," in the sense of, "competitive game you can watch online," is perfectly legitimate, and not an abuse.
They have the same word in it. The phrase 'eSport' is an abuse anyway. To hark back to the same example, no one calls competitive poker an e-sport even though it's also a 'competitive game you can watch online'



I don't think [the legitimacy of a competitive gaming enterprise] is [questionable], and that is the crux of my argument. People still making arbitrary disctinctions about competition are why professional games are still looking upon with derision - my coworkers can't perceive the parallels between watching the League finals and watching the NFL, despite the fact that they are both teams of dudes playing a game. Just because some of the dudes are big and run doesn't mean the other guys don't dedicate themselves, train, etc and provide entertainment.
I meant legitimacy in more of a financial sense. The enterprise as a whole seems to make money. Nothing like a monster like the NFL/MLB or the like, but it seems to support itself at least. I also don't think people look upon 'pro gamers' with derision, at least I don't get that impression. And no one says that professional gamers don't "dedicate themselves, train, etc, and provide entertainment". I mean, I'm just gonna point at South Korea in general and leave it at that.


my coworkers can't perceive the parallels between watching the League finals and watching the NFL
this bit I wanted to touch on specifically, partially because the following is much more opinionated than the rest.
Frankly, I can't blame them. Professional gaming in general is boring as all fuck to a layman. Unless one is deeply invested/involved with most of these games, if you've never played them before they're borderline impossible to understand. Add to this the fact that games like League, Overwatch and friends change month-by-month? Insanity to someone involved with professional sports. Please note that I'm not much of a traditional sports strategist, but I don't think that strategies get invalidated as often as they do in competitive games due to the rules of the game changing. Football (hell, American and otherwise) likely has strategies that have been good for decades, and yet the game doesn't get stale.

[Zombie]

Not to mention, Call of Duty 4? When I told our kids the last call of Duty I played was 2, they looked at me as if I told them I worked the Pyramids in Giza.

I was just going to ask if my hobby's prehistoric: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9tv_-8sBkY (Super Street Fighter II Turbo, or ST for short)



this bit I wanted to touch on specifically, partially because the following is much more opinionated than the rest.
Frankly, I can't blame them. Professional gaming in general is boring as all fuck to a layman. Unless one is deeply invested/involved with most of these games, if you've never played them before they're borderline impossible to understand. Add to this the fact that games like League, Overwatch and friends change month-by-month? Insanity to someone involved with professional sports. Please note that I'm not much of a traditional sports strategist, but I don't think that strategies get invalidated as often as they do in competitive games due to the rules of the game changing. Football (hell, American and otherwise) likely has strategies that have been good for decades, and yet the game doesn't get stale.

There's probably a reason Counter-Strike stays popular. Simple enough to understand and teams have room for self-expression so game-overhauling patches are very rare.

[Ronald Deuce]

Nobody remembers Total Annihilation. Nothing more satisfying than the old "ARM VERMIN HAVE BEEN EXTERMINATED."

[Dice_Box]

Well, I am definitely not knowledgeable enough to say, so what are the overall effects of this in the long term? Was MSRP really holding the price?
No idea, I think the better question is "Who here buys sealed product"? Outside of draft I don't.

On that topic, this set has been sweet for draft.

I love that image. What about those of us who's thought was "System Shock, Halo CE and Golden Eye"? Hell Alex Kid anyone? Duck Hunt. Wow I am starting to feel old.

[Matsu]

No idea, I think the better question is "Who here buys sealed product"? Outside of draft I don't.

On that topic, this set has been sweet for draft.

I love that image. What about those of us who's thought was "System Shock, Halo CE and Golden Eye"? Hell Alex Kid anyone? Duck Hunt. Wow I am starting to feel old.

I love Duck Hunt. Jack Nicholson's joker should have Super Mario, Contra, Duck hunt, Zelda, Castlevania... come on best games ever.
Now i use a real gun to shoot duck btw.

Boys are boys, they just change their toys ;)

[Tylert]

Ugh... I guess I'm this kind of gamer:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/19/15/57/1915579c249565f3999a88df982a0812.jpg

- Super Mario Bros 3
- Mega Man 2

What about Eye of the beholder / dungeon Master / Some bitmap brothers' games?? :) (Yeah i started early).

[Tylert]

Nobody remembers Total Annihilation. Nothing more satisfying than the old "ARM VERMIN HAVE BEEN EXTERMINATED."

Who remembers Dune II which was the precursor of real time strategy games?

[Matsu]

Lands of Lore anyone?
Warcraft 1 or C&C and the one and only Kane!

[Zombie]

RA1 DOS installer

[Tylert]

Lands of Lore anyone?
Warcraft 1 or C&C and the one and only Kane!

Good times!

My first real video game experiences were on CHoplifter, load runner and spy vs spy on Apple 2c. It's incredible to imagine that i had such a good time on those games which were graphically speaking horrible :)
But I can compare it to my first game of magic with a deck playing Sea Serpent, Basilisk and Sengir vampire, back in 1994.... Mostly crappy cards, but good times :)

[H]

I was just going to ask if my hobby's prehistoric: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9tv_-8sBkY (Super Street Fighter II Turbo, or ST for short)

I never had a system as a kid, but would play it often at a friend's house. Positively prehistoric.


Nobody remembers Total Annihilation. Nothing more satisfying than the old "ARM VERMIN HAVE BEEN EXTERMINATED."

CORE for life! That game was both great and not so much at the same time. It was neat for a while, but eventually we would just stick to Starcraft, for custom games and the like.

Two games I loved but no one really played: Deadlock (Deadlock 2 was OK as well) and Rise of Nations.

[CptHaddock]

Lands of Lore anyone?
Warcraft 1 or C&C and the one and only Kane!

C&C owns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yMy7JuGpJM

[taconaut]

This is really a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist thing. I am obviously the latter.

I'd be interested to know what you think of the "is a hot dog a sandwich?" debate. I have a guess.


The nomenclature and the "legitimacy" are not one thing. Sports might be considered by many people more "legitimate" but that is not an intrinsic quality, that is a cultural valuation.

Yes, and part of the cultural valuation is the words we choose to use. "Nerd" was formerly a pejorative, and is no longer, because of changing use and cultural attitudes. Words have meanings, but the meanings aren't static. They change over time.

So, no, it isn't just an issue of nomenclature that gives us the valuation, it's our personal values.

Again, which is it, then? Do words have immutable definitions, or do we define them personally?

It's also nonsensical to think that people like traditional sport solely for the fact that they require skill. Although could be a part of some people's enjoyment, another part of sport that appeals to people is the simplicity. The world's most popular sport, football, is fantastically simple, and that is a key to it's success.

I mean, American Football and Baseball are both extremely complicated, and are both very popular. I agree that simplicity will enable widespread appeal, but I don't think it's the driving factor. Why do we keep track of records, and debate which players were the greatest of all time? Because the fundamental nature of sport is excellence, whether it's with a ball, bat, mouse, or controller.

Why doesn't Magic have the same appeal? Because it is much less intuitive, much harder to conceptualize and with it's fantasy styling, seems "childish" to people.

Again, those opinions change, and are fluid. Boxing, for instance, was once a preeminent component of the American sports landscape, but has since fallen from grace because it's seen as dangerous and barbaric. It's possible to argue American Football is on the same trajectory, as a consequence of new knowledge about TBI and the unsettling conduct of the players off the field.



It's not, there are lines between what words mean. Just because you like using the phrase 'professional sport' more than 'professional gaming' doesn't change the meaning of the words themselves.

As a descriptivist, the meaning of words comes from how we use them.

Again, I used several very specific traits that encompass the words 'Athletic' and 'Sport'. Right from a dictionary.

The dictionary is a snapshot, it changes.

Most here with real input haven't reduced it to 'running good gaming bad'

Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but it really feels to me like you're trying to separate them on that basis that calling games "sports" is the consequence of nerds aspiring to more than they're worth, which seems to imply "running good, gaming bad," as you've put it.

They have the same word in it. The phrase 'eSport' is an abuse anyway. To hark back to the same example, no one calls competitive poker an e-sport even though it's also a 'competitive game you can watch online'

Yes, and that's fine. People have an intuitive understanding that poker requires skill, and that the stakes in it are high, because the money is physically present at the table. Also, you may recall that the premier event in Poker is the "World Series of Poker"...

Professional gaming in general is boring as all fuck to a layman. Unless one is deeply invested/involved with most of these games, if you've never played them before they're borderline impossible to understand.

I don't think League and American football differ considerably in complexity. In fact, I think they share several attributes: Tanks, DPS, Carries, Supports, and Junglers all have parallels in Linemen, Receivers, Quarterbacks, Defensive Backs, and Special Teams, and the objective of both games is to bring your offense to bear on the opposing team by exploiting asymmetries in positioning (get your tank on the carry, get your linemen to sack the quarterback). Many of the same things can be said of Overwatch, and in that game there's even a Payload (ball) you push to get yardage(!).

League can even have more interesting things going on at once, because both teams are on offense and defense at the same time, and there's a macro element that resembles clock management in football but has the potential to be more varied and interesting.

Anyone who is an American Football fan is perfectly capable of understanding a game of League or Overwatch. Maybe if they realized they have more in common than they do different, they'd give it a shot, and maybe one way to get them to realize that is branding!


Add to this the fact that games like League, Overwatch and friends change month-by-month? Insanity to someone involved with professional sports. I don't think that strategies get invalidated as often as they do in competitive games due to the rules of the game changing. Football (hell, American and otherwise) likely has strategies that have been good for decades, and yet the game doesn't get stale.

I'll admit that I'm not an expert in standard sports either, but the notion that they rarely change is not true - football has had many small rules changes ("patches," if you will) that people perseverate over constantly. Here (https://247sports.com/nfl/new-york-giants/Board/103172/Contents/List-of-rule-changes-since-1986-53707463/) is a list of changes, they make a couple every year, which is not all that different from seasonal changes in Overwatch or any other game.

Plus, even if a former meta lineup changes, is it really all that different if the new Carry is Cait instead of Ashe, or if running an extra tank is strong because Ana got released with killer numbers? The fundamentals are the same, and these changes are the kind of thing sports fans love to debate/hear about from the in-game commentators - I would argue they are a boon.



P.S.: A hot dog is a sandwich.

[Tylert]

Man i was looking for the name of this game...
Command & conquer!

One of the first games i played in a LAN (On PC because i had already played some games on amiga with Null cable in direct connection) along Duke Nukem !

[tescrin]

Man i was looking for the name of this game...
Command & conquer!

One of the first games i played in a LAN (On PC because i had already played some games on amiga with Null cable in direct connection) along Duke Nukem !

Original C&C circa ~1995 is still one of my favorites. Several of its successors are good; but the original got so much right for basically inventing a genre. I was truly inspired the last time I played it. I remember the first time I played it, maybe I was 9 or so; I was sleeping over at a friends house, they showed me the game and I don't think I hung out with them the rest of the night. To be fair to myself; that kid was a douche. But his game was pretty great.

[Watersaw]

Yes and the National Baseball League (EDIT: Major League Baseball. How I did that is beyond me.) championship is referred to as The WORLD Series. And there's a Miss UNIVERSE beauty pageant. And let's not forget WORLDStar Hip Hop.

Give me a break dude. If I wanted to play language games I would have gone into academia.

[H]

This is really a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist thing. I am obviously the latter.

I'd be interested to know what you think of the "is a hot dog a sandwich?" debate. I have a guess.

P.S.: A hot dog is a sandwich.

If the definition of "sandwich" is meat between two slices of bread, then yes. However, this would tend to get you into trouble, because if you have something like pepperoni on pizza and you fold it in half, that too is a "sandwich." However, that isn't really how people use the term sandwich. Not to mention, a hot dog isn't guaranteed to be eaten between bread. Our kids never do, they don't like buns. So, no, a "hot dog" is not a sandwich, but it is something that could be eaten as a nominal "sandwich."


Yes, and part of the cultural valuation is the words we choose to use. "Nerd" was formerly a pejorative, and is no longer, because of changing use and cultural attitudes. Words have meanings, but the meanings aren't static. They change over time.

I'm not changing the meaning of sports. In fact, I am keeping it the same. The definition of nerd hasn't changed, only the value associated with the term. So, what you want is an overarching broad meaning change to the word sport. I'm not for that. What you also want is a different valuation of the word game. I'm fine with that.


Again, which is it, then? Do words have immutable definitions, or do we define them personally?

Words are defined inter-subjectively. You can have any definition of a word that you like. That doesn't mean people are going to agree with you. You want to change the definition of sport to include any game, or at least the games you define as "skillful." I am against that. So, here we are. Could we arbitrarily call anything in the world a sport? Sure. But that would make the word so broad to be essentially meaningless.


I mean, American Football and Baseball are both extremely complicated, and are both very popular. I agree that simplicity will enable widespread appeal, but I don't think it's the driving factor. Why do we keep track of records, and debate which players were the greatest of all time? Because the fundamental nature of sport is excellence, whether it's with a ball, bat, mouse, or controller.

Again, this precludes a very broad definition of sport which I don't agree with. You can achieve excellence in many things, that doesn't qualify it as a sport by definition. And I'd still disagree that Baseball or Football are all that complicated, but that is really besides the point.


Again, those opinions change, and are fluid. Boxing, for instance, was once a preeminent component of the American sports landscape, but has since fallen from grace because it's seen as dangerous and barbaric. It's possible to argue American Football is on the same trajectory, as a consequence of new knowledge about TBI and the unsettling conduct of the players off the field.

Sure, people's opinion's change, as does their assignment of value. None of this precludes a definitional, or conceptual change, to the nature of sports. What you seem to be hung up on is that since sports are given cultural value, anything you want to have the same cultural value should be labeled a sport. I'm not buying that. If you want the cultural acceptance, change the culture. That's what happened to the term "nerd." It didn't conceptually drift into meaning the same as "jock" or "aficionado" or anything. It still means the same as it always did. It just doesn't have the negative connotation it once did.

Boxing isn't suddenly not a sport because people don't like to watch it. A game isn't suddenly a sport just people some people do like to watch it.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Nobody remembers Total Annihilation. Nothing more satisfying than the old "ARM VERMIN HAVE BEEN EXTERMINATED."

I have some ancient and vague memories of Total Annihiliation Kingdoms. "Castle building on. Castle building off. Command me!"

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

RA1 DOS installer

Let me tell you about Madden '95, NHL '97 and the boost-disks I needed to play them.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

No idea, I think the better question is "Who here buys sealed product"? Outside of draft I don't.

On that topic, this set has been sweet for draft.

I love that image. What about those of us who's thought was "System Shock, Halo CE and Golden Eye"? Hell Alex Kid anyone? Duck Hunt. Wow I am starting to feel old.

I only buy sealed so I have a stack of booster packs for EDH where I play Booster Tutor.

[CptHaddock]

words

Friend arguing with a pedant is just like arguing with someone with an anime avatar. Nothing constructive will ever come out of it.

[tescrin]

Friend arguing with a pedant is just like arguing with someone with an anime avatar. Nothing constructive will ever come out of it.

What about a pedant who has an anime avatar; like a double-negative thing?

Getting back on topic: Brainstorm is a sport; fight me

[TsumiBand]

If you have to cover it with a napkin before you get up so that your friends don't punch it, it's a sandwich. How hard is that, honestly

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If you have to cover it with a napkin before you get up so that your friends don't punch it, it's a sandwich. How hard is that, honestly

Because... What?

[TsumiBand]

Because... What?

If you have to ask you really don't want to know.

And if you already know, you better cover your fucking hot dogs.

[H]

Because... What?

Never heard of Sandwich Punch?

Well, now you are tainted. Somethings are better left unknown.

[CptHaddock]

Lmao one of the first links that came up was this: http://www.archive.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33623.0

[CptHaddock]

What the fuck wrong with you folks in the flyovers?

[taconaut]

If you have to cover it with a napkin before you get up so that your friends don't punch it, it's a sandwich. How hard is that, honestly

:laugh:

Perfection as usual Tsumi

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If you want me to not hang out with you anymore, please be an adult and say so instead of punching my sandwich like an asshole.

[Ace/Homebrew]

If you want me to not hang out with you anymore, please be an adult and say so instead of punching my sandwich like an asshole.
The alternative is that he punch your asshole like a sandwich.

http://i62.tinypic.com/33zcqvt.png

[kirkusjones]

The alternative is that he punch your asshole like a sandwich.

http://i62.tinypic.com/33zcqvt.png

Damn. That is A LOT of mayo.

[ronco]

The alternative is that he punch your asshole like a sandwich.

http://i62.tinypic.com/33zcqvt.png

Asshole punch, like sandwich punch, but twice the butt-hurt!

(seriously, i hadn't heard of this until today)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

No punching at all.

[TomTwice]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/361/738/f8e.jpg

Portal and Fallout 3 are ancient now?

[mistercakes]

Where's quake sit on here? :(

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I mean, it's a meme that assumes you want to be the joker. If course it was made by someone who thinks 2008 was before the modern era.

[TsumiBand]

We get sh&#^*t done.

How many letters do they think "shit" has? My brain reads this as "we get sherbet done"

[taconaut]

How many letters do they think "shit" has? My brain reads this as "we get sherbet done"

I mean, sherbet is delicious. I do get sherbet done.

[PirateKing]

Where's quake sit on here? :(

That's the joke. It's a meme designed to trigger anybody older than 14 years old by assuming video games didn't exist prior to 2006.
It's just a grenade you throw into a room to make everyone scream Quake! and Tribes! and CS1.6!
And then at best you've associated yourself with a group pf people that need punctuated speech to advise whether or not to be messed with.

[CptHaddock]

https://twitter.com/BenS_MTG/status/1101027764105371648

Lmao

[Barook]

https://twitter.com/BenS_MTG/status/1101027764105371648

Lmao
https://twitter.com/MishrasFotoshop/status/1101179480297668608

Mishra's Fotoshop nailed the response pretty well.

[TomTwice]

Pat Cox was also pretty savage:

https://i.imgur.com/AtAudB6.png