[SCD] Kambal, Consul of Allocation

[morgan_coke]

He's a new card from the new sets. Text:

Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1WB
Legendary Creature
2/3

Rules Text

If an opponent casts a non-creature spell, that player loses two life and you gain two life.

Why isn't this guy seeing a lot of play/getting used a bunch in Legacy? (Aside from the usual "new card takes awhile to break in it's a deep format" bit.

He dies to Lightning Bolt and Swords, and Fatal Push if it's Revolt is triggered, but still, even in that case he's eaten a card and drained for two life, and that's a worst case scenario. If your opponent is on combo, or just using a blue shell, they have to pay that two life tax every time they cast a search spell, or a counter, or anything. He's brutal against burn-style plans because of the lifegain too.

I know his cc is a little awkward being 3, and being WB, but if he's unanswered, you win the game in short order, and his 3 toughness means he trades favorably with basically every utility creature in the format.

I'd think D&T, Deadguy, Esper, Nic Fit, Mardu-style burn, anything with Vial, really any deck that can fit him in would want to. He's a 1-sided Eidolon of the Great Revel that gains you life.

I've been messing around with him in Modern and he's just stupid there. I realize Legacy is a different format and all that, but his power level seems really high. Is there a reason I'm missing that he's not seeing play?

[iatee]

I went 4-0 last night with a BW DnT deck splashing main for 2 Kambals 2 Dark Confidants and one more Kambal in the board. I've messed around with it for a while and generally done well. The card is absolutely underplayed in my opinion and has always been very good, stealing games that would otherwise be lost. Only really feels significantly worse vs Blood Moon decks.

Vs Miracles, it's an Eidolon that you can protect with Karakas. It's arguably the strongest here. You don't even have to attack and even if you do it doesn't eat Snapcasters. It's actually better than an Eidolon since it hits their Jaces and Terminuses too.

Vs Burn and Delver decks he makes it really hard to get tempo'd out, even if he gets immediately bolted that's a 4 or 7 point life swing.

[iatee]

Being a 2/3 it also survives Punishing Fire, Dread of Night, even Massacre (!). It's probably the most resilient hatebear, it lives through just about every SB card people bring in for DnT. Downside is you can't fetch it with Recruiter, so the solution is just to play a bunch.

[MaximumC]

I know his cc is a little awkward being 3, and being WB, but if he's unanswered, you win the game in short order, and his 3 toughness means he trades favorably with basically every utility creature in the format.


That sort of answers your question. Legacy is a format where efficiency is at it's peak. In Vintage, you can accelerate up to higher casting costs quickly using broken artifacts or lands. In Standard, everything plays out much more slowly. In Legacy...? Resolving this guy is great, but you've let the opponent have two to three free turns to do whatever before you can. Miracles will not have won the game by then, sure, but other decks may well have executed most of their plan already.

I think this guy is totally playable, and in the right deck it can do some work. But at 3 casting cost, it's got a high barrier to being a regular part of the metagame. You have to be running cards below Kambal to plug in those early turns, like Thalia, and at that point you have to ask whether Kambal at the top end adds much more - does your deck need to transition from prison to damage, for example? Or are you better off just running more of the faster threats so you have more options in early turns?

[Megadeus]

The format has gotten too efficient for this guy sadly. He can rarely attack against any fair deck, and against miracles he just eats a plow. And he's 3 mana against Combo. I've had him be decent for me, but being mediocre in the face of an opposing Goyf he is pretty meh

[PirateKing]

Why couldn't he be a Cleric :cry:

It's okay Edgewalker, I'll find a home for you some day...

[iatee]

The format has gotten too efficient for this guy sadly. He can rarely attack against any fair deck, and against miracles he just eats a plow. And he's 3 mana against Combo. I've had him be decent for me, but being mediocre in the face of an opposing Goyf he is pretty meh

Everything 'just eats a plow' in theory. For Karakas decks any legendary creature + Karakas is extremely hard for Miracles to deal with.

It's possible that this guy sucks in WB fair small creature decks that don't play Aether Vial and Karakas. But the bigger question is 'Why you playing a WB fair small creature deck that doesn't play Aether Vial and Karakas?'

[ahg113]

I've been a huge fan since he was spoiled, pre-bought my playset from ebay and overpaid for it, c'est la vie. Decided to take one and make a tiny leaders deck- lulz.

The card is good, it's just not in great colors. Individually black and white can be strong, but together, lack luster. I play team italia, and he's doing work for me in that deck. Kambal has provided that extra little bit of reach when I can't push through with soul tokens or that Bob is about to coin-flip my W/L on the extra card. Another factor of Kambal, eating removal for a neutral event- there should be something better on the table than just Kambal to make your opponent wince in the selection. Kambal or Bob type decision making. If there is only the choice of Kambal, the removal, your opponent, isn't stressed. Kambal needs friends to play with, to force your opponent into casting spells, or roll over and die.

Speed is a factor, playing with DRS or a mox certainly helps, but not always a given.

At the end of the day, Kambal isn't a haymaker (although frequently he does act as an answer-me card, rattlesnake so to say), a tad slower than his intended prey (combo/can-trip), and isn't in the strongest supporting colors.

But yes, if a well built B/W deck includes Kambal, the card will often result in positive gains once on the battlefield.

[morgan_coke]

I'm not arguing with the points anyone is making about him, but I think a lot of you haven't play tested him. He looks good, but plays significantly better. Also, he's entirely one sided, so I'm not sure why you would build around him or rely on him alone to fight 'Goyfs. That's not his job. Here's a sample "white rock" list off the top of my head:

4x Birds of Paradise
2x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kambala, Consul of Allocation
2x Qasali Pridemage
4x Dark Confidant

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Fatal Push

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
4x Bayou
4x Savannah
1x Swamp
1x Forest

Or let's say a Dark Taxes Shell

4x Mother of Runes
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Dark Confidant
4x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2x Recruiter of the Guard
3x Leonin Arbiter

2x Smuggler's Copter
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Fatal Push
4x Warping Wail
4x Aether Vial

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Scrubland
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Karakas
4x Caves of Koilos
2x Plains

Those lists are probably both terrible, but my point is simple, he costs three mana, goes into a lot of different decks, and if he sticks, he wins the game by himself. Compare him to Siege Rhino - costs G less, has -2/-2, drains for 1 less, but can activate multiple times. At 4 mana, pretty much any deck with green, black, and white can do better than Rhino, even if a few specific decks might want him. At three mana, not a lot of decks with black and white can do better than Kambal.

But c'mon guys, "dies to removal" and "can't beat goyf in a 1v1" and "doesn't have an impact turn 1" aren't reason to hate on a card. Even goyf dies to removal and doesn't have a t1 impact. Also can't beat itself in a 1v1.

[ahg113]

I'm not arguing with the points anyone is making about him, but I think a lot of you haven't play tested him.
...
But c'mon guys, "dies to removal" and "can't beat goyf in a 1v1" and "doesn't have an impact turn 1" aren't reason to hate on a card. Even goyf dies to removal and doesn't have a t1 impact. Also can't beat itself in a 1v1.

There is some merit in your lament, but please do argue with what was stated. I've play tested him, had many people go "really, huh? wow, better than I thought" in a read-the-fucking-card type moment. He's good, not great, and does not win a game by himself. That's why he isn't widespread. At the three mana spot in black, the primo-card is Lili. Lili >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kambal, and I'm a huge Kambal fan. In white, it's a bit trickier, because it's voltron D+T, or support in Miracles. If the opponent need not unnecessarily cast non-creature spells, Kambal isn't going to bash face as a non-evasive 2/3. When was the last time Kird Ape ran wild? And if you're playing against creature deck (Eldrazzi), Kambal will be another body thrown on the pyre.

Also, don't submarine your own thoughts. If you don't believe what you posted was good enough, why should we?

But yeah, I love the card, and welcome some group thought on how to make it shine. As a ridiculous person that hates U, this is a perfect hoser against can-trips and spell-chaining. If it had shroud/hexproof, it'd probably be too good.

I want it, I need it, I want more of it!

[Gheizen64]

I think for this card there's a bit of attrition on the kind of effect he has and the kind of deck you'd fit him in. Damage as a hate-effect is really good in decks that can pressure, but a 1WB 2/3 ... seems hard to fit him in an aggressive list tbh.

[iatee]

I ran this last night:

4 Thalia
4 Mom
4 SfM
4 Flickerwisp
2 Kambal
2 Bob
2 Revoker
1 Serra Avenger
1 Prelate
1 THC
1 Recruiter

Skull/Jitte/Sofi
4 Stp/Vial

2 Cavern
3 Karakas
5 Fetch
2 Scrubland
3 Plains
4 Port
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Path
2 Council's Judgment
2 Relic Warder
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Containment Priest
1 Kambal
1 Prelate
1 Ethersworn
1 Pontiff
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Palace Jailer
1 Rest in Peace

I woulda played a second Pontiff, but I left it at home.

Anyway, above is a tier 1 legacy deck. I've probably had like a 12-3 record with it at this point. It's definitely a little soft to fast Blood Moon decks (one of the losses), a little weaker vs Lands, but just about every single creature in that list is a huge pain in the ass for Miracles. Kambal sucks in the mirror, but Bob and Pontiff don't. Deck isn't great vs Eldrazi, but all the Eldrazi players seem to have recently gone back to their home planet or something.

[morgan_coke]

There is some merit in your lament, but please do argue with what was stated. I've play tested him, had many people go "really, huh? wow, better than I thought" in a read-the-fucking-card type moment. He's good, not great, and does not win a game by himself. That's why he isn't widespread. At the three mana spot in black, the primo-card is Lili. Lili >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kambal, and I'm a huge Kambal fan. In white, it's a bit trickier, because it's voltron D+T, or support in Miracles. If the opponent need not unnecessarily cast non-creature spells, Kambal isn't going to bash face as a non-evasive 2/3. When was the last time Kird Ape ran wild? And if you're playing against creature deck (Eldrazzi), Kambal will be another body thrown on the pyre.

Also, don't submarine your own thoughts. If you don't believe what you posted was good enough, why should we?

But yeah, I love the card, and welcome some group thought on how to make it shine. As a ridiculous person that hates U, this is a perfect hoser against can-trips and spell-chaining. If it had shroud/hexproof, it'd probably be too good.

I want it, I need it, I want more of it!

Oh wow, I really did go full circle on my argument there, lol. Strong case against long posts, made.

[Megadeus]

I ran this last night:

4 Thalia
4 Mom
4 SfM
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter
2 Kambal
2 Bob
2 Revoker
1 Serra Avenger
1 Prelate

Skull/Jitte/Sofi
4 Stp/Vial

2 Cavern
3 Karakas
5 Fetch
2 Scrubland
3 Plains
4 Port
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Path
2 Council's Judgment
2 Relic Warder
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Containment Priest
1 Kambal
1 Prelate
1 Ethersworn
1 Pontiff
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Palace Jailer
1 Rest in Peace

I woulda played a second Pontiff, but I left it at home.

Anyway, above is a tier 1 legacy deck. I've probably had like a 12-3 record with it at this point. It's definitely a little soft to fast Blood Moon decks (one of the losses), a little weaker vs Lands, but just about every single creature in that list is a huge pain in the ass for Miracles. Kambal sucks in the mirror, but Bob and Pontiff don't. Deck isn't great vs Eldrazi, but all the Eldrazi players seem to have recently gone back to their home planet or something.
You self proclaiming this as a tier 1 deck because you have gone 12-3 means nothing. I've had very good runs with Deadguy, Maverick, Storm, even Zoo over the past couple years, but that doesn't mean those decks (besides maybe storm) are tier 1 decks. At least in my meta, Kambal is incredibly underwhelming.

And if you're in black and white, there are many three drops competing for that slot. Flickerwisp in vial builds, mirran crusader, Thalia 2, Eldrazi Displacer, White recruiter. All sorts of things. Hell even lingering souls if you're competing with a non Thalia deck or Painful Truths. This guy is mostly good against control and combo, but for control a small threat that doesn't protect itself and has minimal disruption capability (life loss is not the best) isn't great, and while he's good against combo, he's also 3 mana in a format where often 2 mana hatebears are far too slow, and also of which they are abundant.

[iatee]

DnT is already a t1 deck, so you can do a lot of things to it - such as throwing in 4 black cards and playing a slightly dodgier manabase - and it's still a t1 deck.

[Wilkin]

Iatee. Well, as someone who does well with a WB deck that doesn't play Vial I can answer that.

A lot has to do with Liliana of the Veil and Lingering Souls, and I guess to a lesser extent Vindicate. Because I'm playing a bunch of excellent non-creature cards I can't maximize the full value of Aether Vial. In addition, I play Shriekmaw and Hero of Bladehold. Creatures that I do well with but aren't that great with Vial.

As far as Kambal is concerned. It's a decent card but in Deadguy, IMO it doesn't help enough. Deadguy or pretty much any WB deck is a deck that is good to great at disruption but with a very mediocre clock most of the time. Delver, Burn and Goyf are a much better clock than what most WB decks can do. This is why Eidolon of the Great Revel is played and is great in the decks that it is in (ok, just one deck really :) ) Sure, Eidolon is symmetrical but burn can create a ton of pressure and can afford to take some shocks.
Also, Kambal is a taxing Tendrils effect but I prefer a hate creature that can actually stop an opponent, such as Gaddock Teeg or Sanctum Prelate. Sure, Kambal is a must answer for Storm and ok, it's annoying vs Miracles but I'd prefer Teeg over Kambal in that situation easily. And like I said before we don't put a fast clock on the board usually so a deck can take a few hits before it gets dangerous for them.

I'm also curious as to what is your definition of a Tier 1 deck. So you've played 15 matches and declared your deck as Tier 1? I do great as Dead guy ale but since it's a deck that isn't played by many people and also not many people do well with it, I wouldn't consider that to be Tier 1 at all.

[iatee]

I play a ton of DnT and have for a long time now. At the moment, mono-W DnT is a tier 1 deck by most definitions. It is at least as good and consistent vs the legacy meta as any deck that isn't Miracles. The above build has felt at least as strong as normal DnT, and definitely stronger vs some decks (e.g. Miracles, Delver).

So my goal isn't to badmouth Dead Guy or whatever, it's just to say that Kambal is already a card that's playable in a competitive legacy deck and not just some fringe 'maybe this could be playable' case. The right shell is pretty obvious - there's a tuned deck that wants its creatures to be legendary humans with powerful taxing effects.

While I don't doubt it can be okay in some midrangey deck too like Dead Guy or Maverick, the real draw is its interaction with Cavern/Vial and especially Karakas. It is not the same card in Dead Guy as it is in DnT, because you don't have the same tools to abuse it.

[morgan_coke]

Well, this is still going much better than the time I made a thread saying Ancestral Visions was better than Standstill.

[Claymore]

At the 3 slot in BWx decks - typically BWG, it's competing against haymakers.

Liliana
Knight of the Reliquary (fetch answers, DD, must answer card)
Renegade Rallier (still developing but enables game crushing double wasteland or reviving Bob/Mom/etc)
Tireless Tracker (card advantage engine + win con)
Prelate
Recruiter
Bad Thalia

And then past that, you're into UWB (Lingering Souls) or BWR (fuck if I know).

It doesn't have as huge an impact on the board as its competition.

That puts it into the sideboard, where it is a very slow Eidolon and has to compete for slots against Canonist, Teeg, Choke. Another analogy would be Ichneumon Druid.

That probably limits it to solely Deadguy and Black and Taxes. It seems good and I'd be interested in testing it after seeing some reports in here, but just doesn't seem very appealing when you go to make cuts.

[MaximumC]

At the 3 slot in BWx decks - typically BWG, it's competing against haymakers.


Right, that's the thing. No one is saying this is a bad card. It's not. It is an awesome card. It does not "die to removal" because you get a benefit even if it goes Plowing right away.

But, when you are choosing cards to put in your list, a 3-drop in a BW deck is just about the top of your curve. You need to plug in lots of holes below that, in the 1 and 2 cc range. Once you put disruptive elements down there, you have to ask whether your 3 slot really should be dedicated to another disruptive element.

The question is this, in other words: Given that you're already using taxing/hatebear effects lower on your curve, is it best for you to be doing more-or-less the same thing on your top end? Or is it better to be doing something else?

That's the critical issue here, I think.

EDIT: And, it leads you to two situations where Cambal is the right answer. (1) If there is some way to pop him out earlier, so he can take the place of other disruptive elements; like a B/W mana dork, for example; or (2) If your opponent's deck plans to win by casting spells in the late game.

The latter situation is Miracles, so it makes sense that OP was seeing lots of benefit there.

The former situation is either Birds of Paradise or Hierarch, which suggests a home in some kind of Neo-Dark-Maverick list. Not sure if that's where you want to be, but it's an idea.

[tescrin]

You have to compare him to other 3-drops; as you can only have a few:
* Worse than Liliana in most cases
* Doesn't let you not-run Souls
* Worse than KotR/Mirran Crusader/Hatebears

And that's basically the only issue. You can only run a few 3-drops before you get pinched for it, and you'll either run a more efficient hatebear who lands potentially early enough you don't die, or you want your 3-drop to win the game on it's own.

Crusader, Lily, and KotR can all run away with the game, and the latter two have obvious anti-combo interaction (albeit both are worse against Storm.) You could do what I do and swap in Blossom for Souls freeing some 3-drop slots, but now you have to justify adding 3-drops that aren't the above; and there could be others too. Lastly; you're stuck in WB which have a lot of other fun-ofs you may run instead.

I've found I often die with a 2-drop hatebear in hand. a 3-drop one likely just results in more feel-bads.

I own a few copies; but I haven't tried them yet because putting them in a list just always looks worse than their alternative. He'll win you games against Burn and Storm if he lands T2, but just about anything else you'll probably be much much happier with Lily or KotR, and both of those have applications against Burn and Storm as well (KotR->Bog or Waste for Storm, Plow KotR against storm or Plow->KotR against Burn when you're gonna die.)

Lastly, being WB means you're likely in Team Italia or Maverick. Maverick doesn't want him because he's not Green. Junk doesn't want him because he's not G (and they're GBw) and Italia doesn't see any play because Counterbalance is the worst feeling ever. In Esper, he's not blue which makes him as obnoxious to cast as DRS before you consider you're running a Bayou and a bunch of wastelands.


Not hating, he's just got no slot in legacy until CB goes away because he's really a Team Italia card.

[Wilkin]

I play a ton of DnT and have for a long time now. At the moment, mono-W DnT is a tier 1 deck by most definitions. It is at least as good and consistent vs the legacy meta as any deck that isn't Miracles. The above build has felt at least as strong as normal DnT, and definitely stronger vs some decks (e.g. Miracles, Delver).

So my goal isn't to badmouth Dead Guy or whatever, it's just to say that Kambal is already a card that's playable in a competitive legacy deck and not just some fringe 'maybe this could be playable' case. The right shell is pretty obvious - there's a tuned deck that wants its creatures to be legendary humans with powerful taxing effects.

While I don't doubt it can be okay in some midrangey deck too like Dead Guy or Maverick, the real draw is its interaction with Cavern/Vial and especially Karakas. It is not the same card in Dead Guy as it is in DnT, because you don't have the same tools to abuse it.

Well, when you said "But the bigger question is 'Why you playing a WB fair small creature deck that doesn't play Aether Vial and Karakas?'", my understanding of that statement is you think WB decks with small creatures are only optimal if you play Vial and Karakas.

Kambal is an alright card but there are a lot of other cards (like Tescrin mentioned in his post) that Kambal has to compete against in that mana slot. And right now, I'd rather have Liliana of the Veil and Lingering Souls at 3 mana.

[nedleeds]

Not hating, he's just got no slot in legacy until CB goes away because he's really a Team Italia card.

Be sick if they printed a Boseju for creatures.

[ahg113]

Not hating, he's just got no slot in legacy until CB goes away because he's really a Team Italia card.

Some people play Team Italia. :cry:

Oh, and in my Team Italia list, Kambal competes with Monastery Mentor as well. The 3-drop spot is so, so competitive.

[MaximumC]

Some people play Team Italia. :cry:

Oh, and in my Team Italia list, Kambal competes with Monastery Mentor as well. The 3-drop spot is so, so competitive.

He would be so good if there was a way to reliably pop him out turn 1. Something like:

Better Edgewalker WB

Pay 1 life, Exile this from your hand: Put a Cleric creature with a mana cost of 1WB from your hand onto the battlefield.

2/2

I mean, you print that, you make Kambal great. But, of course, something that narrow is unlikey to ever happen.

[ahg113]

What am I missing? Kambal is an advisor, not a cleric...

[grimfield]

My favorite advisors are Gaddock Teeg, Mayor of Avabruck, and Imperial recruiter :laugh: