[Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

[Griselpuff]

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/does-legacy-need-a-new-ban/

*drops mic*

*ducks and covers*

[UnderwaterGuy]

It was great to see a reminder of how laissez-faire Legacy's banlist has been. That's an invigorating list imo, it makes me feel great about the format. If someone wants to play Zoo and doesn't want to deal with people playing Brainstorm then I don't understand why they would want to play Legacy.

And a Deathrite Shaman ban would be totally out-of-the-blue. I think that's kind of a bizarre idea and ALL B&R update should be only ONE card unless there is a serious emergency. I understand the author thinks that if Top is banned then BUG or 4-color Delver would become the most-played deck but removing Miracles would radically shake up the whole format and it's presumptuous to predict what the outcome would look like. If wotc bans a Miracles card, I hope they at least have the foresight to wait and let that settle before meddling further with the format. Deathrite Shaman is powerful of course but let's give him a chance before the banhammer.

Finally, the article undermines itself by relying on the author's estimate that Miracles was less than 10% of the field in the EE. The data is probably really hard to get but he would've been much more convincing if he actually had the data and presented some matchup percentages.

[Griselpuff]

I couldn't care less for Zoo, I was just making the point a true "aggro" option could be interesting for the format.

Maybe I should have made this more clear, but my personal opinion is we don't need any bans, just new printings and more communication from WotC.

I also totally agree, the lack of bans is totally amazing. This has been a self-regulating format with a couple blips, and they've done an excellent job fixing those blips.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

I think if you want to shake up the format, unbans are a better way to do it than bans. No one likes seeing their deck get banned and the more strategies that are viable the better it is for the format. I think if they unbanned the obvious stuff like Earthcraft and Mind Twist, and other stuff like Survival of the Fittest, Frantic Search, Goblin Recruiter etc. it'd be better for the format, you might say well isn't that risky, but the answer to that is that you don't know whats gonna happen if miracles is banned. There will always be a best deck, and banning miracles is just going to put something else on top, and soon people will be clamoring for said something else to get banned. But if you really want to ban miracles, which by the way is only %17 of the meta even less in my local meta, i think you should ban Terminus as not to completely kill the deck which is what banning counterbalance or sensei's divining top would do, and Supreme Verdict is a very viable option in legacy.

[Lord Seth]

I think if you want to shake up the format, unbans are a better way to do it than bans. No one likes seeing their deck get banned and the more strategies that are viable the better it is for the format. I think if they unbanned the obvious stuff like Earthcraft and Mind Twist, and other stuff like Survival of the Fittest, Frantic Search, Goblin Recruiter etc. it'd be better for the format, you might say well isn't that risky, but the answer to that is that you don't know whats gonna happen if miracles is banned. There will always be a best deck, and banning miracles is just going to put something else on top, and soon people will be clamoring for said something else to get banned. But if you really want to ban miracles, which by the way is only %17 of the meta even less in my local meta, i think you should ban Terminus as not to completely kill the deck which is what banning counterbalance or sensei's divining top would do, and Supreme Verdict is a very viable option in legacy.
"Only" 17%?

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

ya what'd you think 50%? i mean i honestly wouldn't be surprised considering how people on this website are talking. http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE

Capitalization is required when posting here. Please use it. Thanks. -zilla

[UnderwaterGuy]

I couldn't care less for Zoo, I was just making the point a true "aggro" option could be interesting for the format.

Maybe I should have made this more clear, but my personal opinion is we don't need any bans, just new printings and more communication from WotC.

I also totally agree, the lack of bans is totally amazing. This has been a self-regulating format with a couple blips, and they've done an excellent job fixing those blips.

Awesome, that makes more sense. I was being defensive when I read "Zoo" and "Ban Brainstorm" but I appreciated your analysis and it's just a hypothetical situation. I'd stop playing the format if Brainstorm was banned though so I really hope it never happens.

New printings are the way to go and instead of trying to bring down blue maybe wotc can find a way to provide other colors some more relevant ways to interact with the stack. The "blue vs combo vs mana disruption" dynamic is pretty strong in eternal formats and while new hatebears or prison effects keep decks like Death and Taxes and Eldrazi alive they perpetuate this dynamic. Personally I'd love to see white and red have more interactions on the stack (Beyond REB) instead of relying on prison or mana disruption. It's a tall order but if wotc could pull it off it's the best case scenario.

edit: +1 to LegacyIsAnEternalFormat pointing to the 17% of top 8's. It's high but the game has seen more dominant decks than that.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Awesome, that makes more sense. I was being defensive when I read "Zoo" and "Ban Brainstorm" but I appreciated your analysis and it's just a hypothetical situation. I'd stop playing the format if Brainstorm was banned though so I really hope it never happens.

New printings are the way to go and instead of trying to bring down blue maybe wotc can find a way to provide other colors some more relevant ways to interact with the stack. The "blue vs combo vs mana disruption" dynamic is pretty strong in eternal formats and while new hatebears or prison effects keep decks like Death and Taxes and Eldrazi alive they perpetuate this dynamic. Personally I'd love to see white and red have more interactions on the stack instead of relying on prison or mana disruption. It's a tall order but if wotc could pull it off it's the best case scenario.

wotc needs to focus on fixing standard before it can focus on trying to lower miracle prevalance in the legacy metagame. And really do you really think that they care enough about legacy to print anything for it, i mean these are the idiots who are keeping MindTwist and EarthCraft on the banlist.

[UnderwaterGuy]

wotc needs to focus on fixing standard before it can focus on trying to lower miracle prevalance in the legacy metagame. And really do you really think that they care enough about legacy to print anything for it, i mean these are the idiots who are keeping MindTwist and EarthCraft on the banlist.

:laugh: I don't think they're paying much attention at all and I like it that way. If they did get their act together and prove an ability to make a balanced Standard then I'd be optimistic.

It's been my pet idea for a long time but I think if Misdirection (which isn't even played anyway) was color shifted to red it would be better for the game.

[Nicklas]

I wonder if/how the numbers would change, if you separate the data from Europe, America, Asia+Australia (and MODO). I feel like the European meta is more diverse and hateful towards Miracles than the US meta, but I might be wrong.

MODO is a whole different story...

[Ephemeron]

Main takeaway: Kevin Adams is a passive aggressive twat.

Seriously though, good article. I don't think I had ever seen that naming legacy poll before since I'm relatively new to the format compared to a lot of people here probably. Boy there are some awful choices there.

[Wanderlust]

Thanks for including a historical perspective on Legacy's ban list. My two cents:

Banning Terminus would be a great way to end the dominance of Miracles (if it really is a problem) without ANY collateral damage.

[Sigar]

Thanks for including a historical perspective on Legacy's ban list. My two cents:

Banning Terminus would be a great way to end the dominance of Miracles (if it really is a problem) without ANY collateral damage.

Yes! Banning Terminus would be optimal IMO. It opens up for other control and CB/Top decks, and makes actual creature decks playable again.

[kentheide]

Yes! Banning Terminus would be optimal IMO. It opens up for other control and CB/Top decks, and makes actual creature decks playable again.

Creature decks ARE playable - Elves, DnT etc. You just can't flood the board with creatures and win. You have to play around Terminus, those who do - succeed, and those who don't seldom understand why they lost and blame the power of Terminus.

[Barook]

Creature decks ARE playable - Elves, DnT etc. You just can't flood the board with creatures and win. You have to play around Terminus, those who do - succeed, and those who don't seldom understand why they lost and blame the power of Terminus.
It still reduces the variety of potential creature decks alot - you either have counters for Terminus, Cavern (+ haste creatures) and/or Vial against CB to keep aggression up or you're Julian Knab playing Elves.

The grand plan to not overextend into Terminus backfires in the exact moment they fire off a hail of Stp/Snapcasters, aka their back-up removal plan.

Creatures have never power-creeped to the point where 1-mana instant speed Super Wraths are necessary for the health of the format.

[KZhang]

Legacy should always be focused on unbans rather than bans. So many exciting cards that can potentially shakeup the format.

1) Survival
2) Mind Twist
3) Goblin Recruiter

[Echelon]

Thanks for including a historical perspective on Legacy's ban list. My two cents:

Banning Terminus would be a great way to end the dominance of Miracles (if it really is a problem) without ANY collateral damage.


Yes! Banning Terminus would be optimal IMO. It opens up for other control and CB/Top decks, and makes actual creature decks playable again.

Seconded! Keeps the CounterTop package intact while taking away the quick get-out-of-jail-free card. StP + Snapcaster paired with Jace & Vendilion Clique is still plenty of removal (which currently deals quite well with those that do not overextend into Terminus, I might add).

[Ingo]

Seconded! Keeps the CounterTop package intact while taking away the quick get-out-of-jail-free card. StP + Snapcaster paired with Jace & Vendilion Clique is still plenty of removal (which currently deals quite well with those that do not overextend into Terminus, I might add).

And there's still Supreme Verdict as a (much worse) alternative for Terminus.

[H]

Seconded! Keeps the CounterTop package intact while taking away the quick get-out-of-jail-free card. StP + Snapcaster paired with Jace & Vendilion Clique is still plenty of removal (which currently deals quite well with those that do not overextend into Terminus, I might add).

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, but banning Counterbalance hits no other decks and removes part of the impetus that drives people to default to BG/X: the need for Abrupt Decay to not get locked out of the game.

I honestly don't find Terminus to be that much of a problem itself as it's just a hyper efficient Wrath, the problem is keeping Counterbalance off the board and still avoiding losing to Mentor or Entreat, while you can't really pressure effectively because of Terminus.

Without Counterblance there are a whole host of ways to fight Top, fight Terminus, fight Mentor and so on. With Counterbalace though, you need to have Decay or face the option of getting locked out of the game and being cut off all those options.

So, to come full circle to what akatsuki said in the article, I don't think Deathrite is overpowered, the issue is that Decay has become nearly a "must play" and if you are in GB/X DRS is an obvious include. So, my thinking is, Ban Counterbalance, make Miracles decks into the Board-Control deck it should be, not the Board-Control and Prison deck it is now and you'll see less Deathrites, since people won't feel forced into GB/X by the threat of a lockout.

I guess the fear would be that this would make GB/X decks "too good" but in reality, decks held back by having no real answers to Counterbalance would more than take up the share of good matchups versus GB/X, like Death and Taxes or even Grixis.

Just my two cents as a nobody.

[LeoCop 90]

Copy paste from a comment i made on the article:

"Brainstorm in my view needs to be banned. Let's be Real, if you want to win in Legacy you start your decklist with 4 brainstorm. Non blue strategies exist but they are not nearly as competitive. I know this Will never happen, because there is the Crazy accepted notion that Legacy has to be the "blue" format and many players are too attached to their blue cards, but dear god just Imagine how many strategies would become viable with a brainstorm ban just because all the busted cards get nerfed : delver gets significantly worse, miracles are clunky cards in your hand, you Can no longer build your deck assuming that you Can play any kind of overpowered but situational card just because when said card is Dead you Will be able to shuffle it away, discard spells become playable again. It would just be an Amazing new Legacy era that sadly we Will never see.

Now, if you want to just Nerf miracles, i think it is better to ban counterbalance or terminus. I know top is time consuming, but i also know it's One of the very few non blue tools to get card selection and consistency, that some decks like nic fit and Imperial painter play. It would be a shame to harm Fringe, non blue strategies just to kill miracles, while banning terminus or counterbalance doesn't hurt any other deck. "


In the end, i like legacy even with brainstorm legal, but it would really be much, much better without it. Of course there will always be people like underwaterguy who come up with fantastic arguments like "i'd stop playing the format if brainstorm was banned so i hope it never happens" or "if people want to play zoo and don't care about people casting brainstorm then i don't really understand why they would want to play legacy". Awesome stuff.

In the meantime, can we please unban goblin recruiter ?

[Crimhead]

Not a bad article, but the banning suggestions seem terribly narrow. Assuming for the sake of argument that Miracles is a problem, there are more ways to hit it than BS or a shake-up. Obviously Terminus, SDT, and CB are all potential targets if Miracles needs a ban. I'm not interested in rehashing the pros and cons of these bans, but I do think it was lazy (and/or dishonest) that none of these were even suggested.

I also agree (again, assuming we agree there is a problem) that there are unbans that might give the meta a healthy shake. I would certainly advocate at least trying that before taking any more severe measures. Realistically there are cards that don't belong there to begin with...

[iatee]

All of the potential unbans are terribly designed Magic cards. The format is not gonna get better because someone gets wrecked by a Mind Twist once in a while, or because you can now lose to a new fast combo via Earthcraft or Survival, or watch your opponent stack his Goblins deck for 10 minutes. These cards are only fun in your head. They don't make for interesting or interactive games.

There is some weird bizarro libertarian impulse w/ some eternal players, as if freedom for these old cards is more important than having a format that's actually balanced and competitive. I think this streak is worse in Vintage, where you had people willing to go to war for the right to have their opponent t1 Lodestone Golem them.

[Mr Miagi]

I don't know. On one side, I rather liked the article, it was a nice read. But the more I'm looking deeply into what was written the more I feel (<-subjective) that author didn't dare (or want?) to really advocate the banning of true offender of Legacy which is Brainstorm. I mean I know he touched on it in point three and I agree with this, but what bothers me the most is his conclusion, when he is saying
I still stand by my previous conclusion, that I would prefer to see more cards printed that give other colors consistency, or that pressure Brainstorm (e.g., Thalia, Leovold, Green Sun's Zenith, Recruiter of the Guard) than see Brainstorm banned.
again I think we all agree that we would all welcome more cards to enter legacy card pool and bring some color (non-brainstorm?) balance to the format. but I have a problem with above quote. It's hard to theorize but it would take Wizards extreme effort to print cards that would bring nonbrainstorm decks to the level of brainstorm decks. Nonbrainstorm decks would still have edge in consistency in the tournament with several (high number of) rounds. It's easy to fix your hand with just U - Brainstorm, while it would take immense design effort and spread over multiple cards to at least try to get on the level of what Brainstorm does to blue decks.

[CptHaddock]

All of the potential unbans are terribly designed Magic cards. The format is not gonna get better because someone gets wrecked by a Mind Twist once in a while, or because you can now lose to a new fast combo via Earthcraft or Survival, or watch your opponent stack his Goblins deck for 10 minutes. These cards are only fun in your head. They don't make for interesting or interactive games.

There is some weird bizarro libertarian impulse w/ some eternal players, as if freedom for these old cards is more important than having a format that's actually balanced and competitive. I think this streak is worse in Vintage, where you had people willing to go to war for the right to have their opponent t1 Lodestone Golem them.

Haha my bad I forgot about balance while getting any of the following: turn 1 griselbrand, turn 1 sire, turn 1 emrakul, turn 1 tendrils for 10, turn 1 charbelcher, turn 1 chalice of the void, turn 1 blood moon.

[Claymore]

It's hard to theorize but it would take Wizards extreme effort to print cards that would bring nonbrainstorm decks to the level of brainstorm decks.



Of course, once a card was discovered and popularized to help combat Brainstorm - Chalice of the Void - blue players began foaming at the mouth to have it banned.

[iatee]

Haha my bad I forgot about balance while getting any of the following: turn 1 griselbrand, turn 1 sire, turn 1 emrakul, turn 1 tendrils for 10, turn 1 charbelcher, turn 1 chalice of the void, turn 1 blood moon.

Well, if you made me king, I would be for banning all of the following:
Griselbrand
LED
Chalice
Show and Tell

[Spam]

Yep, every constructive discussion usually ends with two sides bashing at each other. Anyway, I think it's quite clear that Wizard is trying to push card in legacy more than ever, with some clear results. It's also clear how "Conspiracy" is the hand that brings us those cards rather tha standard's legal sets.

[UnderwaterGuy]

@ Dice Box
Why delete our posts but leave Mr Miagi's up :really: ?

edit: undersood, thanks

[Dice_Box]

Because I missed it.

[Richard Cheese]

I say take a flamethrower to the whole format. I'd ban dozens of new-bordered cards before Brainstorm; Griselbrand, Terminus, Delver, Thalia, Deathrite, Jace, probably a ton more could get the axe. Then again, I'd also be fine with losing Brainstorm. Change for the sake of change.

[cheerios]

Or maybe they can print new cards to push cloudpost decks some more to mess with miracles. I dont really want to see bans in the format.

[Chatto]

Or maybe they can print new cards to push cloudpost decks some more to mess with miracles. I dont really want to see bans in the format.

Let them make some viable Goblins as well, please

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

All of the potential unbans are terribly designed Magic cards. The format is not gonna get better because someone gets wrecked by a Mind Twist once in a while, or because you can now lose to a new fast combo via Earthcraft or Survival, or watch your opponent stack his Goblins deck for 10 minutes. These cards are only fun in your head. They don't make for interesting or interactive games.

There is some weird bizarro libertarian impulse w/ some eternal players, as if freedom for these old cards is more important than having a format that's actually balanced and competitive. I think this streak is worse in Vintage, where you had people willing to go to war for the right to have their opponent t1 Lodestone Golem them.

No, just because you think the cards are unfun doesnt mean that they should ban them, i think Death and Taxes is unfun to play against how would you like it if they banned that? Also unbanning cards causes a changeup in the metagame that people seem to want right now. Bottom line is that banned list is for overpowered cards not for cards that you think are unfun.

[ironclad8690]

I would love something to make RG fair a thing again. Perhaps a creature that has a prohibitive mana cost like RRG or RG or something that domes the opponent every time they use an activated ability (Burning-Tree Shaman on crack/current power creep adjusted). Also has to have a good Power/Toughness.

I think this could make aggressive non-delver decks a thing again. Overall, I just miss decks that used creatures to grind like RGSA. The closest we have to that now is Shardless BUG.

I think they are on the right track, printing things that give other decks a boost, rather than outright banning something.

[maharis]

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, but banning Counterbalance hits no other decks and removes part of the impetus that drives people to default to BG/X: the need for Abrupt Decay to not get locked out of the game.

I honestly don't find Terminus to be that much of a problem itself as it's just a hyper efficient Wrath, the problem is keeping Counterbalance off the board and still avoiding losing to Mentor or Entreat, while you can't really pressure effectively because of Terminus.

Without Counterblance there are a whole host of ways to fight Top, fight Terminus, fight Mentor and so on. With Counterbalace though, you need to have Decay or face the option of getting locked out of the game and being cut off all those options.

So, to come full circle to what akatsuki said in the article, I don't think Deathrite is overpowered, the issue is that Decay has become nearly a "must play" and if you are in GB/X DRS is an obvious include. So, my thinking is, Ban Counterbalance, make Miracles decks into the Board-Control deck it should be, not the Board-Control and Prison deck it is now and you'll see less Deathrites, since people won't feel forced into GB/X by the threat of a lockout.

I guess the fear would be that this would make GB/X decks "too good" but in reality, decks held back by having no real answers to Counterbalance would more than take up the share of good matchups versus GB/X, like Death and Taxes or even Grixis.

Just my two cents as a nobody.

I agree with all this, especially since the last time I played was when I finally relented to start tinkering with BUG again and promptly got ranched by Grixis. I would play Grixis myself if I didn't want to eat it to Counterbalance all the time.

Terminus would be fine to ban but I think its power is overstated. It's not like it comes down earlier than Wrath/Verdict would that often, it just keeps mana open. The instant speed Terminus is barely a surprise anymore so I don't think that's a good argument against it. But one of the best things you can do after a Terminus with the extra mana you didn't use on your wrath is play CB and prevent the opponent from rebuilding again.

I understand that DRS is a good card but I have a hard time thinking of a deck that is so severely held down by it that it would come back if only DRS were banned. Thresh I guess is the big one but they would still have to deal with Counterbalance, SFM-> Skull, TNN, D&T, etc. Meanwhile you'd lose a lot of the fringy BGx decks people like playing like Food Chain, Aluren, Jund.

While I don't think Brainstorm is going anywhere, any ban is always going to be a sacrifice at its altar. If you take out Top and DRS, the best thing to do becomes Brainstorm and fetches even more than it already is, and you still get to pair it up with free counters, SFM, TNN, Mentor, and oops I win spells. Banning any creature that does nothing when it ETBs and eats it to Bolt, STP and now Push is insanity to me. That includes Delver. How are we complaining about these cards in formats where S&T/Past in Flames/Natural Order are legal?

[Claymore]

I agree that banning DRS seems ridiculous. It does provide a ton of main board utility against graveyard decks (Reanimator especially), so maybe the overall flexibility is a concern, but not ban worthy.

I'd love to see a counterbalance ban and definitely see how it warps the format, but killing a wide range of control decks seems bad.

My problem with Terminus is it allows the deck to still operate along its normal plan (expend as much mana as it needs to on its turn), but still completely able to just wipe out anything you do for W, at instant speed. Then if it doesn't need to, the deck still has the flexiblity to cantrip for more business. Instant speed board wipes shouldn't be that cheap. Compare to Bonfire of the Damned even.

I could see Terminus fine at a miracle cost of 3 or 4 mana. I have no idea what they were thinking at 1 mana.

[Michael Keller]

Since we're all sharing our opinions on the matter, I figured I'd share mine:

I'm not afraid to play Miracles, and it's an absolutely beatable deck. However, I think Terminus is the card that needs to go. This isn't necessarily like Survival of the Fittest where you have a permanent-based tutor; even the worst player can luck-sack their way into a one-mana Wrath, and in the hands of a competent opponent it becomes even more annoying. Was Vengevine a problem with Survival? Sure. But this is different: there are a plethora of ways to manipulate the top of the deck (including Brainstorm), and this card just swings the game incredibly. Even knowing you have to play around it is annoying. Top and Counterbalance existed in the format long before it was ever a thing. Anyone remember Gerry-T using Firespout to clear the board? Or Supreme Verdict being the ace in the hole? Once that card was printed and it found its way into the deck, it became so annoying for aggro players that not even a dominating early board-state was a safe bet.

That's what's happening now. Counterbalance is beatable with Decay and Cavern - which are ubiquitous - and Top is Top without Terminus: a filtering machine that requires a turn-in, turn-out mana investment. You don't have to tip-toe or tread water around a one-mana Wrath if that card were to go. I'm not saying going "all-in" is a good thing and dumping your hand knowing that Supreme Verdict or Firespout could be slammed, but it's light years better than the realism of knowing that an attempt to create board dominance can be obliterated for W.

So in short, Terminus playing the role of Vengevine and Top playing the role of Survival can be seen as somewhat congruent in nature, in that both share qualities - albeit innocuous - about their counterparts. However, the weight of the problem centers around Terminus swinging the game for W instantaneously, since a card like Brainstorm exists and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[NeckBird]

Banning a card in Legacy has far greater consequences than a format like Modern or Standard simply due to how expensive Legacy decks are in comparison. Cards like Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were colossal errors that set Legacy back pretty far, not just because they had to be banned, but because people bought into decks that cost $2k that they considered useless afterwards. I know multiple people that bought into Omni-Tell or UR Delver or what have you and after the bannings sold their deck and went exclusively into Modern.

It would be better if they changed the Miracle cost on Terminus to 1W and made Deathrite Shaman an 0/1 before they banned a card currently legal in the format.

[Dice_Box]

They just took two cards out of a 18,000 dollar Vintage deck. I don't feel like Wizards gives a shit about deck price.

[NeckBird]

They just took two cards out of a 18,000 dollar Vintage deck. I don't feel like Wizards gives a shit about deck price.

If this were true, Workshop and Bazaar would've been restricted a long time ago.

[iatee]

Yeah, they banned 2 relatively cheap cards from the deck that just crushed another finals of a large Vintage event by going t1 Workshop Trinisphere.

The card that they should obviously restrict is Workshop, but just like Brainstorm in legacy, it's probably untouchable.

[Claymore]

If you want to see something interesting, check out the UWx CounterTop Superfriends lists that made the miracles thread when it started back in 2011. The deck played the likes of Elspeth and Lingering Souls until April 2012 when Terminus and Entreat were revealed, and then hit DTB two months later when they started running 4x Terminus main (after a foray with Temporal Mastery). Hasn't left since.

[Dice_Box]

Yeah, they banned 2 relatively cheap cards from the deck that just crushed another finals of a large Vintage event by going t1 Workshop Trinisphere.

The card that they should obviously restrict is Workshop, but just like Brainstorm in legacy, it's probably untouchable.
Unlike Legacy, in Vintage there are cards that are over the line Wizards has explicitly said they shall not touch. Also Shops as a deck needs to exist, it does good things for the format even if not everyone enjoins playing against it. Vintage needs a deck that punishes the engine decks.

On Bazaar, Dredge is doing little to nothing these days. It's fine.

[CptHaddock]

Unlike Legacy, in Vintage there are cards that are over the line Wizards has explicitly said they shall not touch. Also Shops as a deck needs to exist, it does good things for the format even if not everyone enjoins playing against it. Vintage needs a deck that punishes the engine decks.

On Bazaar, Dredge is doing little to nothing these days. It's fine.

It's okay man. 33% of the overall field was on gush, 6/8 of the top 8 were on gush but the problem is clearly shops.

[rlesko]

Banning a card in Legacy has far greater consequences than a format like Modern or Standard simply due to how expensive Legacy decks are in comparison. Cards like Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were colossal errors that set Legacy back pretty far, not just because they had to be banned, but because people bought into decks that cost $2k that they considered useless afterwards. I know multiple people that bought into Omni-Tell or UR Delver or what have you and after the bannings sold their deck and went exclusively into Modern.

It would be better if they changed the Miracle cost on Terminus to 1W and made Deathrite Shaman an 0/1 before they banned a card currently legal in the format.

Those people seems rather foolish, as OmniTell is not that far off from OmniSneak or Sneak&Show and UR burn delver is still a deck, and is not far off from Grixis or RUG. Not to mention, the irony of leaving the less banned format for the one which is often banning things. Unfortunately cards being revised is not an option, so such suggestions oftens bring a discussion down an endless rabbit hole.

I think bob's suggestions are great, but better than anything would be more communication. We could actually shitpost with a bit more accuracy :laugh:

[maharis]

Terminus going might be enough to put the brakes on Miracles, I don't know. But then you still have Countertop with Mentor/Entreat as incredibly powerful closers that still have enough synergy with Top to make a 4x SDT deck good. Neither of those cards were around in the early days of CB/Top either and to be both of them are pretty brutal. And the deck still gets Snap-Plow and their choice of wrath.

I guess I think the dropoff from Terminus to Supreme Verdict is less than the dropoff from Counterbalance-Top to 4x Counterspell or whatever you'd have to do to keep things off the stack. Getting wrathed is one thing but never sticking another threat after the wrath is quite another. Thoughtseize effects become actually useful and Thrun is actually a playable card in the control matchup while being a brick against other decks.

Maybe I'll change my mind when I pick up MM17 caverns haha.

[iatee]

Unlike Legacy, in Vintage there are cards that are over the line Wizards has explicitly said they shall not touch.

Has Wizards actually said this or are they just like "Alright dudes, for some reason you really want to play t1 Trinisphere against each other, have fun with that."?

[H]

Unlike Legacy, in Vintage there are cards that are over the line Wizards has explicitly said they shall not touch. Also Shops as a deck needs to exist, it does good things for the format even if not everyone enjoins playing against it. Vintage needs a deck that punishes the engine decks.

On Bazaar, Dredge is doing little to nothing these days. It's fine.

As much as I don't particularly like playing against Workshops, I think it's a necessary evil or Storm is just too damn strong.

As for another reason why I suggest banning Counterbalance as opposed Terminus, is that Terminus is actually easier to play around/counter for most decks.

In a world where Elves didn't have to worry about getting locked out by 'Balance, they could run shit like Invasive Surgery (granted, tough to get Delerium, but still works) to stop Terminus, since they don't really care about StP. While that sounds janky and kind of is, it's not really all that bad. I've played against G/U Elves and it's a bit of a nightmare, since you often need a boardwipe and they might just have the counter (in the old days it was actually Swan Song).

The other thing is that there are actually some pretty decent "answers" to Terminus (and Top) that simply aren't great, because they'll probably just get countered by 'Balance, like the aforementioned Invasive Surgery, even Stifle or Pithing Needle (for Top). Even Surgical Extraction would be more reasonable to combat it, if you weren't constantly under the threat of being locked out of the game.

[Barachai]

Has Wizards actually said this or are they just like "Alright dudes, for some reason you really want to play t1 Trinisphere against each other, have fun with that."?

When they banned Chalice, they specifically mentioned that chalice stops people from playing their cool cards (moxen, aka $$$). One could extrapolate from this that they want people to play with their cool, expensive cards, perhaps at the expense of other cards.

[Dice_Box]

They did, back in the early naughties yes. Fucked if I can find that article again, but this is where the "Pillars of Vintage" come from.

The idea was that you would have 4 "Pillars" that would hold up the formats distinct ideals, regardless of how much penetration those four cards got. The original 4 were Shop, Bazaar, Drain and Ritual.

These days, if you had to ask me what the pillars of Vintage are, I would say Gush, Ancient Tomb, Null Rod and Bazaar. Each of those are cards I would ask not be restricted. Shops is not even on the list anymore thanks to Eldrazi. You can take out Shops, I just move onto something just as efficient and not at all unlike how I enjoy playing.

[Alka]

It still reduces the variety of potential creature decks alot - you either have counters for Terminus, Cavern (+ haste creatures) and/or Vial against CB to keep aggression up or you're Julian Knab playing Elves.

The grand plan to not overextend into Terminus backfires in the exact moment they fire off a hail of Stp/Snapcasters, aka their back-up removal plan.

Creatures have never power-creeped to the point where 1-mana instant speed Super Wraths are necessary for the health of the format.

Not to mention by not playing out your creatures and holding them in hand you are giving the Miracles player extra time to find terminus.

[UnderwaterGuy]

It's okay man. 33% of the overall field was on gush, 6/8 of the top 8 were on gush but the problem is clearly shops.

Shops has a better winrate and many more people play Gush. Gush is more popular but not better performing.

[ESG]

They did, back in the early naughties yes. Fucked if I can find that article again, but this is where the "Pillars of Vintage" come from.

This probably isn't the one you're thinking of, but it's from the Mothership and references the pillars, by way of Menendian:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/sunday-615-pm-%E2%80%93-pillars-vintage-2013-11-03

[Crimhead]

All of the potential unbans are terribly designed Magic cards. The format is not gonna get better because someone gets wrecked by a Mind Twist once in a while, or because you can now lose to a new fast combo via Earthcraft or Survival, or watch your opponent stack his Goblins deck for 10 minutes. These cards are only fun in your head. They don't make for interesting or interactive games.


You might not think Enchantress makes for interesting or interactive games, but that's your problem. Would you say Lands doesn't make for interesting or interactive games because it amounts to "you can now lose to a new fast combo via Dark Depths"?

Anyway, I think you are missing the point. It's not that these cards would or wouldn't be fun to play with. It's that these cards might bolster decks that hurt the top deck a little - making room for other decks, balancing the format, and improving diversity.

I understand you personally are more interested filling the format with quality games and matches than you are with diverse styles. That's cool, and I can respect it. (We differ on our opinions of quality matches too, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms). Other people want all sorts of other things though. If somebody wants:


More top-tier non-cantrip decks
Fewer prison/soft-lock effects
Less hard control in general
A less prominent or permanent top performing deck
A wider range of midrange or other fair creature decks in the top tier.
A minimalist banned list
A fair and consistent banned list.

They might very much feel the format could be improved by the right unban(s).

It's pretty hard to argue what makes a format better. I like seeing a healthy prison decks and decks that are heavily invested in a "hard control" plan. Not everybody likes that.

[iatee]

I agree that ultimately not everyone is as interested in legacy being a format with interesting and interactive games. Some people just want the format to be a carnival where everyone gets to do what they want and show up with their favorite pet cards. Some people just want to show up in a goblin costume and play Goblin Recruiter.

The funny thing is, the current state of modern is actually probably a pretty good example of the format some of these people dream of - everyone can show up with their pet deck and win some games. Modern fulfills almost every criteria on the above list you made other than 'a minimal banlist'. But the legacy banlist barely matters because the good cards are so much better than the other 15,000 cards.

The number of decks that could theoretically t8 a modern tournament is much larger than it is in legacy right now and the number of actually playable cards in modern is much, much larger e.g. somebody won a GP last year this year with Skred Red. Unlike losing to a linear legacy deck, when you lose to fast decks in modern, you even get to pretend like you played magic for 3 turns.

In short, most of you guys should play more modern - these treasures you seek are already out there, waiting for you at your LGS' modern night.

I suggest building tron.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/M0NWMaUsfTE/hqdefault.jpg

[Crimhead]

I suggest building tron.


What? No, I'll stick to my Mazes, Chasm, and Tabernacle! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Yeah, they banned 2 relatively cheap cards from the deck that just crushed another finals of a large Vintage event by going t1 Workshop Trinisphere.

The card that they should obviously restrict is Workshop, but just like Brainstorm in legacy, it's probably untouchable.

They've played themselves in a corner with that one, at this point, restricting shops would piss off the community more than anything.

[Stuart]

stuff

This is an absurd argument. Matchups become uninteresting pretty quickly when you're playing against the same 5-6 decks every round, no matter how many interactive Brainstorms are cast.

[Lemnear]

I won't go deep into the topic again, but just drop a line and leave:

Banning Brainstorm will reduce diversity of viable decks rather than increasing it, as conditional/potentially dead cards are unplayable and we will see Ponder+Preordain+DRS+TNN instead

[Soldier of Fortune]

I think Legacy is in a great place right now. It's never going to be like the wild west days of late 2000's early 2010's due to power creep. But I still think it is incredibly diverse. Just yesterday I saw the results from some of the major Legacy tournaments this weekend and I was pretty stoked on the amount of different decks and strategies. Take a look...

Eternal Extravanga 6 (6 different decks)
1: Miracles
2: Miracles
3-4: Death and Taxes
3-4: ANT
5-8: Aluren
5-8: 4c Control
5-8: 4c Control
5-8: Elves

MKM Milan (8 different decks! NO Miracles!)

1: Food Chain
2: (Omni)Sneak n Show
3-4: Eldrazi Stompy
3-4: Turbo Eldrazi
5-8: ANT
5-8: BUG Delver
5-8: UR Delver
5-8: Infect

Card Kingdom 1K (another 8 different decks!)

1: 4c Loam
2: Imperial Painter
3-4: Tin Fins
3-4: Bant Deathblade
5-8: Miracles
5-8: 4c Control
5-8: BG Hex Depths
5-8: Death and Taxes

Mox Boarding House 1K (7 different decks)

1: Burn
2: Grixis Delver
3-4: Miracles
3-4: Death & Taxes
5-8: (Omni)Sneak n Show
5-8: White Eldrazi
5-8: Mono Red Human Stompy
5-8: Miracles

22 different decks out of 32 total decks, could be a lot worse. With that said, I do agree with Wanderlust and Keller and others, I think Terminus is overpowered. I can't get behind a Top ban because I play Imperial Painter and while it's not essential, it helps the deck keep up. I can't get behind a Brainstorm ban (although I wouldn't be upset by it) because I think a lot of people play Legacy strictly because they can play Brainstorm and would sell out if they couldn't. Terminus however is incredibly hard to deal with and recover from. One mana, instant speed wrath, blow me. On top of that, it puts the creatures on the bottom of the fucking deck. Fuck off. It would be one thing to put the creatures in the yard, at least I can still reanimate, or weld, or something or even remove from the game so Food Chain could keep it in check, but bottom? Fuck. That.

At the end of the day, Legacy is a powerful format where only the most powerful cards will see play and I guess I'm okay with it staying the same. I would like to see the most minimal banlist and I think cards like Survival, Earthcraft, Minds Twist and maybe even Goblin Recruiter could be unbanned.

[ubernostrum]

Copy/pasting my comment from the /r/mtglegacy thread:

I am increasingly coming around to the opinion that Miracles is the glue of the format and can't go away.

This is a variation on where discussion of Brainstorm usually ends up. Yes, it's probably too good for the format when viewed in isolation, but Brainstorm also is the card that lets everybody else keep up with some of the format's most degenerate strategies: it finds disruption, it hides cards from disruption, and generally the combo decks would be about as consistent (they could switch to other card-selection spells) if it were banned, but the fair decks would be much less consistent. And so Brainstorm, despite being a bannable card, can't be banned.

In much the same way, Miracles now serves an important role as the fun police of the format. Viewed in isolation, has it been strong enough for long enough to justify banning something out of it? Probably. But would the format be worse off without Miracles in it? Also probably.

Miracles is the cleanup crew of the format: when WotC pees in the card pool, Miracles has the tools to deal with it (witness the fact that it held its own in the Dig Through era, for example). And by playing that role, Miracles creates room for other fair decks to breathe a bit. You don't have to stretch yourself too thin trying to beat a dozen different broken things in only 75 cards, because Miracles will just naturally be good against most of that stuff and keep it from getting too out of hand. And if something ever were banned out of Miracles, I expect we'd be in Modern-land pretty shortly afterward, with multiple bans every year to try to nerf the worst brokenness that pops up.

In other words: if having a mostly stable format (in terms of things only needing bans when R&D pulls another "oops, we accidentally Ancestral Recall") comes at the price of an average of one Miracles deck per top 8 in the Council database, I'm willing to accept it. And it seems that is the price of a stable format now.

[Ingo]

Copy/pasting my comment from the /r/mtglegacy thread:

I am increasingly coming around to the opinion that Miracles is the glue of the format and can't go away.

This is a variation on where discussion of Brainstorm usually ends up. Yes, it's probably too good for the format when viewed in isolation, but Brainstorm also is the card that lets everybody else keep up with some of the format's most degenerate strategies: it finds disruption, it hides cards from disruption, and generally the combo decks would be about as consistent (they could switch to other card-selection spells) if it were banned, but the fair decks would be much less consistent. And so Brainstorm, despite being a bannable card, can't be banned.



Isn't it the opposite - Combodecks would suffer far more from a brainstorm ban than fair decks? Combo has has a high powerlevel, at the cost of being very conditional (having the combo). Fair decks on the other hand spread their winning strategy over far more cards, and are by definition less conditional and so more resilient to variance. As brainstorm fixes variance, it's importance increases the more you need to reduce variance. For example, there have been many nonblue T1 fair decks, but hardly any nonblue T1 combodecks (BR Reanimator is the only one I can think of in the past years / EDIT: overlooked Elves, but that's a combo/fairdeck hybrid in my opinion). So I think banning brainstorm would hit combo much harder than it would hit fair decks' ability to answer or outrace combo.




In much the same way, Miracles now serves an important role as the fun police of the format. Viewed in isolation, has it been strong enough for long enough to justify banning something out of it? Probably. But would the format be worse off without Miracles in it? Also probably.

Miracles is the cleanup crew of the format: when WotC pees in the card pool, Miracles has the tools to deal with it (witness the fact that it held its own in the Dig Through era, for example). And by playing that role, Miracles creates room for other fair decks to breathe a bit. You don't have to stretch yourself too thin trying to beat a dozen different broken things in only 75 cards, because Miracles will just naturally be good against most of that stuff and keep it from getting too out of hand. And if something ever were banned out of Miracles, I expect we'd be in Modern-land pretty shortly afterward, with multiple bans every year to try to nerf the worst brokenness that pops up.

In other words: if having a mostly stable format (in terms of things only needing bans when R&D pulls another "oops, we accidentally Ancestral Recall") comes at the price of an average of one Miracles deck per top 8 in the Council database, I'm willing to accept it. And it seems that is the price of a stable format now.

I don't see Miracles as the combo-police. A quick counterbalance against Storm might kill it, depending on the topcard of the library, but it might completely fizzle too, and S&T has a curve that's hard to lock out. While really quick combo is only stopped by Force, which is run by a ny blue deck. A deck like Grixis with multiple counters and discard, combined with a fast clock, is far more a policeman against combo than Miracles. I see Miracles as a fair decks-predator while still having a decent game against combo.

[iatee]

Countertop is good against linear decks with a low curve. That includes a lot of (but not all) combo decks and a lot of (but not all) fair decks.


Miracles is the cleanup crew of the format: when WotC pees in the card pool, Miracles has the tools to deal with it (witness the fact that it held its own in the Dig Through era, for example). And by playing that role, Miracles creates room for other fair decks to breathe a bit. You don't have to stretch yourself too thin trying to beat a dozen different broken things in only 75 cards, because Miracles will just naturally be good against most of that stuff and keep it from getting too out of hand. And if something ever were banned out of Miracles, I expect we'd be in Modern-land pretty shortly afterward, with multiple bans every year to try to nerf the worst brokenness that pops up.

In other words: if having a mostly stable format (in terms of things only needing bans when R&D pulls another "oops, we accidentally Ancestral Recall") comes at the price of an average of one Miracles deck per top 8 in the Council database, I'm willing to accept it. And it seems that is the price of a stable format now.

Yep, I agree with all of this. The real beating for fair decks has never been Miracles - the right combination of hard to deal with threats, disruption, etc. will always have game against Miracles, most people just don't show up with that combination in their 75 and whine when they lose. Fast linear strategies like Elves and Lands are the real fair deck predators. Those kinds of decks constitute the majority of Modern decks and the day that Pax Miraclesa is over, they'll take over and we'll all be playing Modern 2.0 featuring dual lands.

[Adryan]

Banning cards from a healthy format is just stupid from a business perspective. It reduces consumer confidence and you don't make any money.

They should just print more powerful non blue cards and put them in non Standard sets. Maybe even cards that force you to not play blue decks or play mono colored.

Even Zoo can be made powerful enough they just have to print very broken cards.

[MorphBerlin]

Isn't it the opposite - Combodecks would suffer far more from a brainstorm ban than fair decks?

Totally disagre, fair decks need to run disruption for both combo and fair decks (counters vs. removal for isntance) so brainstorm lets you get the one half of your deck you need and get rid of the other half.

Combo just needs to find it's combo and maybe some stuff to protect it. Bs lets you see 3 cards jsut like Ponder and Preordain, so they do the same effect for finding and filtering in you deck. And combo can even run Carfeul Study/Looting (Reanmator) or Tutors (storm) wich fair decks cannot use.

[Machinus]

Irresponsible to suggest banning cards.

[Zombie]

Miracles as the glue that holds the format together.

o_o

/headscratch

I think I've seen it all now.

[maharis]

Yep, I agree with all of this. The real beating for fair decks has never been Miracles - the right combination of hard to deal with threats, disruption, etc. will always have game against Miracles, most people just don't show up with that combination in their 75 and whine when they lose.

I watched a BUG vs. Miracles game last night. At the end, the BUG player had Sylvan Library in play, Jace on top of his library, a Needle on Top, and the Miracles player had no cards in hand and nothing but lands in play. Miracles activated Flooded Strand to shuffle away a dead Top from the top of their library (they had used EE on 1 the turn before to clear out two DRS) and said "I'm drawing to Entreat." Guess what came right off the top and ended the game?

One might say, "That's just luck," but the fact is that the Miracles player ALSO had 4 REB effects in his GY which he had used to stop other Jaces, True-Names, and Leovolds along the way. Any time a strategy shows up to defeat Miracles, they just over-board for it, because the rest of their deck is so good against the rest of the format that they can just do that.

So you have a player whose deck has Abrupt Decay, TNN, Leovold, Jace, Sylvan Library, their own counters, hand disruption, etc etc... 2-0 for the Miracles player. What more can people be expected to do?

This deck isn't the police. It's the brownshirts. Hurl it into the sun.



Fast linear strategies like Elves and Lands are the real fair deck predators. Those kinds of decks constitute the majority of Modern decks and the day that Pax Miraclesa is over, they'll take over and we'll all be playing Modern 2.0 featuring dual lands.

I do agree that the specter of Elves taking over is literally the only thing that gives me pause about a Miracles-targeted ban, because of my predilection for the kind of midrangy decks that Elves really preys on. However, those same decks are just eating it to Miracles anyway and I don't think Elves will ever be a fifth of the format.

[Crimhead]

I do agree that the specter of Elves taking over is literally the only thing that gives me pause about a Miracles-targeted ban, because of my predilection for the kind of midrangy decks that Elves really preys on. However, those same decks are just eating it to Miracles anyway and I don't think Elves will ever be a fifth of the format.
Funny, the suppression of Elves is my least favourite thing about the prominence of Miracles in the meta! And this is not just because my RUG Lands beats Elves all day - I think Elves is a great, unique, versatile, interactive deck that adds a lot of character to the meta (I used to play it myself and I am fond of it).

I'm not sure I'd be worried about Elves overrunning the format. Apart from Lands they must have other bad MUs. It's been four years since I've played them, but I would think they still have trouble against very fast decks - especially those with counter-magic and/or removal. Stuff like Infect or RU Snap-Delver. Don't they have a hard time vs Chalice decks too; like Loam or Eldrazi?

[Lemnear]

Totally disagre, fair decks need to run disruption for both combo and fair decks.

~snip~

Combo just needs to find it's combo and maybe some stuff to protect it.

That's too easy. The moment you face dual-angle hate as a combo deck (like Counter+hatebear) the idea of "you just need to find your combo piece" is far off and you face yourself in a Situation of you having to...

A) find the combo/threat
AND
B) protect the combo/threat
AND
C) remove the hate

Even if you just face Counters, you still need to solve A) & B) at the same time as a combo deck, which isn't easier than slamming TNN which evades caring for B) or C).

Edit:

Funny, the suppression of Elves is my least favourite thing about the prominence of Miracles in the meta! And this is not just because my RUG Lands beats Elves all day - I think Elves is a great, unique, versatile, interactive deck that adds a lot of character to the meta (I used to play it myself and I am fond of it).

I'm not sure I'd be worried about Elves overrunning the format. Apart from Lands they must have other bad MUs. It's been four years since I've played them, but I would think they still have trouble against very fast decks - especially those with counter-magic and/or removal. Stuff like Infect or RU Snap-Delver. Don't they have a hard time vs Chalice decks too; like Loam or Eldrazi?

Elves might face troubles with combo or board control decks and i doubt its a problem as elves is winning games on the board and not on the stack. The deck isn't producing blowouts from unfavorable positions either, but accumulates advantages like classic attrition decks instead of doing it by removing interactions like Countertop or Chalice

[Julian23]

Conventional Elves' worst matchup by far are any SneakShow/OmniTell variants. Reanimator is on average also harder than Miracles. Miracles itself can be brought to a reasonable percentage considering it's an unfavorable matchup to begin with...but it's just not worth it since it takes a bunch of highly dedicated SB slots that don't cross-over well into other matchups. Unlike combo decks, which often share a similar pool of anti-cards. Best I can do with Krosan Grip is bring it in vs Omniscience and Infect and hope.

[iatee]

One might say, "That's just luck," but the fact is that the Miracles player ALSO had 4 REB effects in his GY which he had used to stop other Jaces, True-Names, and Leovolds along the way. Any time a strategy shows up to defeat Miracles, they just over-board for it, because the rest of their deck is so good against the rest of the format that they can just do that.

'That's just luck'. I've suggested Entreat as the most reasonable ban because it's the only way they can really steal a game that they're supposed to lose. Terminus resets the board - it doesn't also put them ahead. Banning Entreat doesn't kill the deck, but it takes away the haymaker that's hardest to play around, especially for fair decks g1. The fact that your Miracles opponent may be playing a variety of win cons with very different angles of attack gives the deck an extra edge that it doesn't need and makes it hard to sideboard properly. Wizards likes nerfing decks more than completely removing a deck from the format, and this is the cleanest nerf.


So you have a player whose deck has Abrupt Decay, TNN, Leovold, Jace, Sylvan Library, their own counters, hand disruption, etc etc... 2-0 for the Miracles player. What more can people be expected to do?

I've beat Miracles with DnT before after they cast 4 Terminus, 4 STP and flashbacked 2. They had literally no removal left. The Miracles player could say "What more could I be expected to do? DnT needs a ban." Or they could just suck up the bad beat.

Miracles does indeed lose to BUG decks all the time, so the fact that it didn't that one time doesn't actually signify anything. The deck is not the kind of 'Mardu-Vehicles in Standard' tier 1 deck that is just miles ahead of t2 decks. Miracles loses all the time, often even to very good matchups. It is a mainstay in t8s, but if you had to guess whether Miracles would win any given legacy tournament, the safe bet would be no. If you had to guess whether the next Standard GP will be won by a Mardu deck, the safe bet would be yes.

That doesn't mean it isn't the best overall deck in legacy, it very obviously is. But there's a huge disconnect between that and this idea that the deck is just unbeatable, or even that far ahead of the rest of the format. That is just not true in theory or in practice.

[Michael Keller]

What I'd be curious to see - assuming anyone wants to log time against it - is for some folks to jam a heavy amount of sets with the upper-echelon decks in the format against Miracles...sans Terminus. I don't care what card(s) takes its place; I would like to see how it fares without that card lurking in the 75.

[Crimhead]

What I'd be curious to see - assuming anyone wants to log time against it - is for some folks to jam a heavy amount of sets with the upper-echelon decks in the format against Miracles...sans Terminus. I don't care what card(s) takes its place; I would like to see how it fares without that card lurking in the 75.
Even with Terminus, Miracles has not shown it self to be any better than ~50/50 vs the upper echelon. (Miracles was shown a year or so ago to under-perform once the top8s are under way).

[Lemnear]

'That's just luck'. I've suggested Entreat as the most reasonable ban because it's the only way they can really steal a game that they're supposed to lose. Terminus resets the board - it doesn't also put them ahead. Banning Entreat doesn't kill the deck, but it takes away the haymaker that's hardest to play around, especially for fair decks g1. The fact that your Miracles opponent may be playing a variety of win cons with very different angles of attack gives the deck an extra edge that it doesn't need and makes it hard to sideboard properly. Wizards likes nerfing decks more than completely removing a deck from the format, and this is the cleanest nerf.

With that logic, WotC should have banned Basking Rootwalla instead of SotF or Vengevine back in the days or Gitaxian Probe instead of Treasure Cruise.



I've beat Miracles with DnT before after they cast 4 Terminus, 4 STP and flashbacked 2. They had literally no removal left. The Miracles player could say "What more could I be expected to do? DnT needs a ban." Or they could just suck up the bad beat.

Making a point based on a player who didn't just cast Entreat at some point to smash your face and rather decided to actively lose the game?



Miracles does indeed lose to BUG decks all the time, so the fact that it didn't that one time doesn't actually signify anything. The deck is not the kind of 'Mardu-Vehicles in Standard' tier 1 deck that is just miles ahead of t2 decks. Miracles loses all the time, often even to very good matchups. It is a mainstay in t8s, but if you had to guess whether Miracles would win any given legacy tournament, the safe bet would be no. If you had to guess whether the next Standard GP will be won by a Mardu deck, the safe bet would be yes.

Except tharmt all data from 3 years of metashifts, different contenders and Miracles still staying at top clearly show that it IS miles ahead. What is this nonsense of you trying to make a point based on a D&T match, but deny others making similar points on BUG?



That doesn't mean it isn't the best overall deck in legacy, it very obviously is. But there's a huge disconnect between that and this idea that the deck is just unbeatable, or even that far ahead of the rest of the format. That is just not true in theory or in practice.

This is just nonsense. You don't need to be "unbeatable" to be the best deck in the format. All it takes is having a favorable matchup across the metagame as a whole, which Miracles undoubtfully has

[maharis]

I've beat Miracles with DnT before after they cast 4 Terminus, 4 STP and flashbacked 2. They had literally no removal left. The Miracles player could say "What more could I be expected to do? DnT needs a ban." Or they could just suck up the bad beat.

Miracles does indeed lose to BUG decks all the time, so the fact that it didn't that one time doesn't actually signify anything. The deck is not the kind of 'Mardu-Vehicles in Standard' tier 1 deck that is just miles ahead of t2 decks. Miracles loses all the time, often even to very good matchups. It is a mainstay in t8s, but if you had to guess whether Miracles would win any given legacy tournament, the safe bet would be no. If you had to guess whether the next Standard GP will be won by a Mardu deck, the safe bet would be yes.

That doesn't mean it isn't the best overall deck in legacy, it very obviously is. But there's a huge disconnect between that and this idea that the deck is just unbeatable, or even that far ahead of the rest of the format. That is just not true in theory or in practice.

I understand that anecdotal evidence is not evidence but I also don't think there's anything empirical to back up "Miracles loses to BUG decks all the time."

It's not just about whether or not a person with some tight play, good draws, and a conscientiously designed deck can beat Miracles. Obviously that can happen. But there seems to be this feeling that people aren't doing enough to beat Miracles and I don't think that's true. That was the point of my story. People are trying to beat this deck and nothing works as consistently as the Miracles deck itself works. Certain builds work for a while then Miracles just makes a few tweaks and moves on.


Even with Terminus, Miracles has not shown it self to be any better than ~50/50 vs the upper echelon. (Miracles was shown a year or so ago to under-perform once the top8s are under way).

If Miracles was truly not better than 50/50 against upper-echelon decks, it wouldn't 5-0 as many MTGO leagues. When you get to 3-0 or so it's all upper-echelon decks and players.

I'll buy that in paper it may underperform because of the vagaries of the mechanics and the clock leading to more draws and problems with the Swiss system, but it hasn't underperformed enough to be anything worse than the best-performing deck in paper either.

[iatee]

This is just nonsense. You don't need to be "unbeatable" to be the best deck in the format. All it takes is having a favorable matchup across the metagame as a whole, which Miracles undoubtfully has

It is weird how a deck that:

a. has a huge weirdo obsessive fanbase that plays it at every major tournament
b. attracts many of the best players
and
c. has 'favorable matchups across the metagame'

still doesn't seem to get more than 1-2 slots per t8 at most legacy tournaments. Maybe there's a judge conspiracy that's mixing matches to keep this powerhouse down? How else could this be happening?

[Michael Keller]

There are also a ton of bad Miracles players out there as well, and I would venture to guess a lot of them find themselves unable to penetrate the T8 of an event with records like X-X-2/3.

[iatee]

If Miracles was truly not better than 50/50 against upper-echelon decks, it wouldn't 5-0 as many MTGO leagues. When you get to 3-0 or so it's all upper-echelon decks and players.


Decks don't 5-0 leagues, crazy MTGO grinders 5-0 leagues. The MTGO legacy community is like, 200 people. It is a small, mostly abandoned rural town where everyone knows each other. Maybe 30 of the people in this sad town are obsessive grinders, and a lot of them play Miracles.

[Finn]

Copy/pasting my comment from the /r/mtglegacy thread:

I am increasingly coming around to the opinion that Miracles is the glue of the format and can't go away.

This is a variation on where discussion of Brainstorm usually ends up. Yes, it's probably too good for the format when viewed in isolation, but Brainstorm also is the card that lets everybody else keep up with some of the format's most degenerate strategies: it finds disruption, it hides cards from disruption, and generally the combo decks would be about as consistent (they could switch to other card-selection spells) if it were banned, but the fair decks would be much less consistent. And so Brainstorm, despite being a bannable card, can't be banned.

In much the same way, Miracles now serves an important role as the fun police of the format. Viewed in isolation, has it been strong enough for long enough to justify banning something out of it? Probably. But would the format be worse off without Miracles in it? Also probably.

Miracles is the cleanup crew of the format: when WotC pees in the card pool, Miracles has the tools to deal with it (witness the fact that it held its own in the Dig Through era, for example). And by playing that role, Miracles creates room for other fair decks to breathe a bit. You don't have to stretch yourself too thin trying to beat a dozen different broken things in only 75 cards, because Miracles will just naturally be good against most of that stuff and keep it from getting too out of hand. And if something ever were banned out of Miracles, I expect we'd be in Modern-land pretty shortly afterward, with multiple bans every year to try to nerf the worst brokenness that pops up.

In other words: if having a mostly stable format (in terms of things only needing bans when R&D pulls another "oops, we accidentally Ancestral Recall") comes at the price of an average of one Miracles deck per top 8 in the Council database, I'm willing to accept it. And it seems that is the price of a stable format now.

Ya gotta do a lot better than this. Picking at the nits of a long post is a tried-and-true stalwart here on The Source. It highlights the picker's status as nerd for all to see, and it is sure to send the thread into endless bouts of circle jerking as both (or all) parties seek to outnerd each other publicly. It comes from a feeling of butthurt and a deep emotional connection to one's position disguised as facts. I do not seek to create such a scenario. Your observations are keen. I have quoted some of the key points upon which your opinion is based. Perhaps I can help you sift through the details to form conclusions with the same clarity.

"Brainstorm also is the card that lets everybody else keep up with some of the format's most degenerate strategies"
Think about what you are saying here. Just about all decks are using it, so the card that enables decks to defend against "degenerate strategies" consistently is necessary because it...enables those same degenerate strategies to operate consistently. This is not just silly; it is actually the root of the "ban brainstorm" camp. The central problem with Brainstorm is that you are at a great disadvantage just by not having it, no matter your deck's other 56 cards.

"Miracles is the cleanup crew of the format: when WotC pees in the card pool, Miracles has the tools to deal with it (witness the fact that it held its own in the Dig Through era, for example). And by playing that role, Miracles creates room for other fair decks to breathe a bit. You don't have to stretch yourself too thin trying to beat a dozen different broken things in only 75 cards, because Miracles will just naturally be good against most of that stuff and keep it from getting too out of hand."
You are again making their case for them. If Miracles is able to defeat most other decks handily, including those with and without broken cards, how is that a positive for anyone except for Miracles players? This position clearly lends credence to the case that Miracles is stifling Legacy. After all, if broken decks can't beat it, what chance to the reasonable ones have?

Furthermore, this idea that other decks can "breathe" while Miracles beats on decks with broken cards is nonsense. Imagine being in a contest of any kind, from a free-for-all bar room brawl to a tightly controlled dog show. Would you have a better chance of victory with a higher concentration of difficult opponents or lower?

In fact, Brainstorm (and Miracles as its current flag bearer, but by no means the first) actually masks the problems of the metagame since so many decks get to include the card. There were actually people on this site making straight faced arguments that the format was healthy during the height of the Dig Through Time era and even the Treasure Cruise era when the Decks to Beat category was 100% blue cantrip decks. It was not just a few people either, and many of them are still active. These are not stupid people. It's just difficult to see.

Every format is going to have a best deck. But (using your argument here) is Miracles really doing us an favors by keeping new decks from reaching their potential?

EDIT: Wow, the conversation has moved a bit since I started typing.

[Richard Cheese]

Decks don't 5-0 leagues, crazy MTGO grinders 5-0 leagues. The MTGO legacy community is like, 200 people. It is a small, mostly abandoned rural town where everyone knows each other. Maybe 30 of the people in this sad town are obsessive grinders, and a lot of them play Miracles.

No True Scotsman?

[H]

No True Scotsman?

No True Angel Stompy Pilot.

[Zombie]

Think about what you are saying here. Just about all decks are using it, so the card that enables decks to defend against "degenerate strategies" consistently is necessary because it...enables those same degenerate strategies to operate consistently. This is not just silly; it is actually the root of the "ban brainstorm" camp. The central problem with Brainstorm is that you are at a great disadvantage just by not having it, no matter your deck's other 56 cards.

I'd add that it has baggage - a colorless Brainstorm (even if it had Awesome(tm) added to the rules text) would have quite different implications for the format than the card being blue does.

[Barook]

Even with Terminus, Miracles has not shown it self to be any better than ~50/50 vs the upper echelon. (Miracles was shown a year or so ago to under-perform once the top8s are under way).
Miracles and underperforming? :eyebrow:

I've gone great lenghts in the B&R thread (feel free to look it up) in the past to show that it is outperforming the field alot and goes equal to its relative meta presence at worst. Miracles DOES NOT underperform.

Back up your claims with actual data - data that is not handpicked from certain events.

[KobeBryan]

Miracles and underperforming? :eyebrow:

I've gone great lenghts in the B&R thread (feel free to look it up) in the past to show that it is outperforming the field alot and goes equal to its relative meta presence at worst. Miracles DOES NOT underperform.

Back up your claims with actual data - data that is not handpicked from certain events.

I agree with this statement. A deck that has no weaknesses does not underperform.