Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

[CptHaddock]

Not sure if this archetype warrants it's own thread but it beats having information about the deck being posted in a billion other threads and gives us 1 location to talk about the deck. Seems like the lists that have the most success are either BUGr or UBRg. I could see a metagame where you would want a white splash over one of the other splashes but I think that having access to the blast effects right now is just so good.

From my experience as far as matchups go the deck feels a lot like shardless where if it gets going it's very hard to stop. I think you're pretty favored in :u: matchups and depending on the matchup kind of/heavily unfavored in nonblue matchups.

Tomas Mar's List (UBRg)

Lands
1 x Badlands
4 x Underground Sea
2 x Tropical Island
2 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Scalding Tarn
4 x Polluted Delta
2 x Wasteland
1 x Volcanic Island
Creatures
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Baleful Strix
2 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Spells
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
1 x Painful Truths
1 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 x Night's Whisper
2 x Inquisition of Kozilek
1 x Thoughtseize
4 x Force of Will
1 x Lightning Bolt
1 x Fatal Push
3 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Kolaghan's Command
2 x Liliana of the Veil
2 x Hymn to Tourach

Sideboard
1 x Life from the Loam
2 x Forked Bolt
2 x Diabolic Edict
1 x Marsh Casualties
3 x Pyroblast
1 x Invasive Surgery
2 x Flusterstorm
2 x Nihil Spellbomb
1 x Wasteland

Call1Me1Dragon's List (BUGr)

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Badlands
4 Baleful Strix
1 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Fatal Push
2 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Painful Truths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spell Snare
1 Thoughtseize
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Wasteland

1 Ancient Grudge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fire Covenant
1 Flusterstorm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Golgari Charm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize

[LarsLeif]

Nice, I think a new thread is definitely warranted. I also would like to point out there is a more Grixis/UB-esque 4c version that is pretty popular: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/591343#paper

Lets get to DTB :D

[Hanni]

I really dislike the deck name. 4c Control is way too ambiguous; it's even worse than the era where every deck that had Delver of Secrets in it was called U/x Delver, despite the rest of the cards/strategy.

Weren't people calling this Czech Pile?

EDIT: To further elaborate on my point, is this thread specifically for discussing BURG (in whichever order)?

[CptHaddock]

I really dislike the deck name. 4c Control is way too ambiguous; it's even worse than the era where every deck that had Delver of Secrets in it was called U/x Delver, despite the rest of the cards/strategy.

Weren't people calling this Czech Pile?

Czech Pile/4c Control/All the best cards in legacy that aren't in miracles/Still loses to miracles, you can take your pick :wink:.

I'm in favor of calling it Czech Pile (UBrg Control), but I can't seem to change the actual title of the post. Could a moderator please do that?

[HSCK]

I think the main difference in versions of Czech Pile are heavy discard vs heavy Countermagic. I like the two snare two counter versions over the hymn and inquisition versions.

[btm10]

I think the main difference in versions of Czech Pile are heavy discard vs heavy Countermagic. I like the two snare two counter versions over the hymn and inquisition versions.

Several folks in the States (including me) are playing Thoughtseize rather than Hymn+Inquisition. I think any of the configurations work, it's mostly a question of reactive/proactive balance. The discard-heavy versions are more apt to play something like maindeck Leovolds, True-Names, Goyfs, Anglers, or Tombstalkers to end the game quickly and be stronger against nonblue decks and combo, but the versions with Snare tend to be better in the mirror. Some number of Counterspell seems right regardless.

The other big questions I see regarding how to best build the deck are about the manabase. First, do we want basics (I don't think they're worth it), and do we want Wastelands (probably)?

[CptHaddock]

Several folks in the States (including me) are playing Thoughtseize rather than Hymn+Inquisition. I think any of the configurations work, it's mostly a question of reactive/proactive balance. The discard-heavy versions are more apt to play something like maindeck Leovolds, True-Names, Goyfs, Anglers, or Tombstalkers to end the game quickly and be stronger against nonblue decks and combo, but the versions with Snare tend to be better in the mirror. Some number of Counterspell seems right regardless.

The other big questions I see regarding how to best build the deck are about the manabase. First, do we want basics (I don't think they're worth it), and do we want Wastelands (probably)?

I'm not a big fan of running basics in this list, you basically need access to all 4 colors by turn 2 but I can see a case for a swamp since you can run DRS -> whatever spells. Unsure of the wasteland, I like having the ability to take out a utility land or the depths combo. I feel like if you're running any basics though the wastelands are off the table.

[Hanni]

I think basics are way too greedy when you want UB for Strix, UU for Jace, BB for Hymn/Liliana, UGB for Leovold, GB for Decay, multiple colors of whatever with Snapcaster + flashback, BR for Kologhan's, etc.

The best defense against Wasteland is to play more duals. Basics are better as a defense against Wastelock, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, etc, but I think you have to accept the vulnerability to those strategies, else you shouldn't be playing 4 colors.

[LarsLeif]

It seems to be some confusion here. Czech Pile is the "official" name for the true 4c list popularized by Thomas Mar. It plays all four colors MD, zero basics and wastelands. Then we have the other version I mentioned above, championed by pellenik on MTGO. It is 4c as well, but it's MD is only three colors (or 2 colors even apart from 2 KC). That deck can definitely run basics etc.

Suggestion: If you want to talk more broadly about 4c control, then keep the name as is and keep the different version in mind whilst discussing things such as basics etc. Alternatively, rename the thread Czech Pile and focus on that style only. :)

[theMonster]

Hey y'all, just wanted to throw my current list into the ring and get some constructive feedback from people who have been playing this archetype for a while:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan’s Command

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Night’s Whisper

2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

// sideboard //

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Dread of Night
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties/Toxic Deluge/Engineered Explosives (still figuring out this slot)
1 Vendilion Clique

I was playing straight BUG for a while, but Pyroblast seems super good right now, prompting my pivot. Locally there's a lot of DnT, which makes me want to sleeve up TNNs and play a more proactive strategy. With three TNNs; two Leovolds; Liliana, the Last Hope to recur them; and a Jace, I'm trying to tax opposing Pyroblasts. Since I'm tapping out for these three-drop threats, I opted to go with Hymns over Counterspells and skew my mana base :u::b:. I'm basically only splashing for four red cards and four green cards in the 75, so I think the mana base is stable, even with two basics.

I've found 19 lands and only three Ponders to be sufficient so far. I haven't had very many problems casting my spells. The sideboard is certainly up for debate. Only two Decays in the 75 might be wrong, but at least Spell Snare helps me deal with some of the scarier two-drop Decay targets like Chalice and Counterbalance. Hearing everyone speak so highly of Counterspell makes me want to try to find room for it again, though I wonder if it conflicts too much with the Hymn plan. Having a clean answer to topdecks would feel good.

Overall, I'd say this deck hits harder than most of the 4C lists I've seen but grinds a touch worse with only two Snapcasters and three Strix. I'm curious if anyone has tried the new Lili and think it has merit. I figure it's an un-Pyroblastable threat that synergizes with my heavier creature plan and reduces the need to play things like Forked Bolt, but being answerable by Decay stinks. This TNN + Leovold shell has treated me pretty well of late, but I'm always looking for ways to improve the list.

Thanks, everyone!

[CptHaddock]

It seems to be some confusion here. Czech Pile is the "official" name for the true 4c list popularized by Thomas Mar. It plays all four colors MD, zero basics and wastelands. Then we have the other version I mentioned above, championed by pellenik on MTGO. It is 4c as well, but it's MD is only three colors (or 2 colors even apart from 2 KC). That deck can definitely run basics etc.

Suggestion: If you want to talk more broadly about 4c control, then keep the name as is and keep the different version in mind whilst discussing things such as basics etc. Alternatively, rename the thread Czech Pile and focus on that style only. :)

I feel like all versions of the deck should be welcome here since they're taking the same approach to the games but with different depths of splashes. Really it's all just semantics at this point. From looking online it looks like there are really 3 approaches that people have taken to the deck: BUGr (Czech Pile), BURg (Grixis Control i.e. what Kevin King and Jones have written about), and BUrg (Mengu/Noah).

[Weapon X]

Isn't this just BUrg delver aka castlevania?

[JDK]

Isn't this just BUrg delver aka castlevania?

Without Delver, more lands and higher curve? :rolleyes:

lordofthepit has been playing this deck for some time now: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22711&iddeck=175625

[bigbobbobber]

I've been playing this deck the last few weeks to great success. Weekly in four 4 rounder’s I've gone 3-1 thrice and 4-0 once. In a GPT I lost in the finals. I don’t claim to be an expert with the deck or Legacy in general, but this deck is incredibly powerful and has answers to almost anything I’ve come across. Advantages that it has over decks so far from what I can tell is that it slays Miracles, Elves, Delver, and non-Show and Tell / Sneak Attack based combo. It also ignores Chalice of the Void pretty well with its higher mana curve, as well as maindeck Abrupt Decay and Kolaghan’s Command.

Two huge weaknesses of the deck so far are Blood Moon and Death and Taxes. My local meta is infested with small white creatures, so I pack at least 3 Dread of Night in the sideboard. Blood Moon is a nightmare that I can only imagine beating by packing 3 or 4 blue blasts. As I’m typing this maybe Swan Song is an answer as it also deals with Show and Tell and Sneak Attack…

Anyways, here’s the list:

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Lost Legacy
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Dread of Night

[anwei]

Glad there's a thread. There has been some other discussion in the Team America Midrange/Control thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)/page70), but these lists have been much closer than others in that thread.

Also may want to include the lists from the SCG Open (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112742) this weekend - several players (Noah Walker, Kevin King, Kevin Jones, Oliver Tiu) played fairly well tuned, very similar lists (2 made T32). Kevin King also discussed the list in the meta in an SCG feature (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/kevin_king.html).

The general form of most MTGO/TC Deck lists that have shown up so far have had shockingly little variance from the same basic structure, even when individual choices have varied:

20 Lands
* Flex: 0-2 Wasteland
* Flex: 0-3 Basics

14-16 Threats (15 most common)
* 4 DRS 4 Strix, 3-4 SCM, 1-2 JTMS
* 1-2 Flex: Leovold, Clique, Liliana

9-10 Draw (9 most common)
* 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder
* 1-2 Night's Whisper / Painful Truths

7-8 Removal
* 1-3 Fatal Push
* 0-2 Lightning Bolt
* 0-2 Abrupt Decay
* 1-2 Kolaghan's Command
* Flex: Murderous Cut, Edict, Dismember, Pulse, Engineered Explosives

8-9 Disruption
* 4 FoW
* Discard: Thoughtseize, Hymn, IoK (1/2/2 is popular)
* Counters: Counterspell, Spell Snare, Pyroblast


The biggest 3 variations have come in the manabase (basics or no, wasteland or no), the disruption package (discard-heavy vs. instant-speed, which pairs well with Clique), and the high-end threats/finishers (Clique vs. Leovold vs. Lily). Another reasonable question is whether it's worth finding maindeck removal alternatives that can deal with problem threats: TNN, Crusader, Delve threats, Reality Smasher.

(I've been playing 2 TNN in the threat slots and found them almost unnecessarily strong on defense, but solid finishers that continue to deny opponents profitable use of removal spells. They do have the downside of all non-flash threats, which may skew the disruption package toward discard.)

[theMonster]

Two huge weaknesses of the deck so far are Blood Moon and Death and Taxes. My local meta is infested with small white creatures, so I pack at least 3 Dread of Night in the sideboard.

I've had great success against DnT with TNNs, Leovolds, Jitte, and Hymns and shaving some of the value cards. If you're curious, my list is a few posts above this one. It's still a work in progress, but at the very least it's been a solid favorite against DnT while having great game against most of the field. Blood Moon is still crushing, of course, but DnT has felt comfortable.

[Chatto]

I think basics are way too greedy when you want UB for Strix, UU for Jace, BB for Hymn/Liliana, UGB for Leovold, GB for Decay, multiple colors of whatever with Snapcaster + flashback, BR for Kologhan's, etc.

The best defense against Wasteland is to play more duals. Basics are better as a defense against Wastelock, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, etc, but I think you have to accept the vulnerability to those strategies, else you shouldn't be playing 4 colors.


LMAO Basics are greedy, just play more non-basics!

I understand what you mean, though.

[CptHaddock]

LMAO Basics are greedy, just play more non-basics!

I understand what you mean, though.

I'll quote Gerry T on my feelings on basics in this deck. (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29266_The-Shardless-BUG-PRimer.html) His original statement was in a shardless primer but the same principles apply here too.



Some say that basic lands fight cards like Wasteland, Back to Basics, and Blood Moon, but that's not entirely true. If you have a two-lander against RUG Delver, you fetch a basic and a dual, and they Wasteland you, you are more mana screwed than if you had simply fetched two duals. If you fetched two basics, you'd be mana screwed even in the face of a Wasteland.

Against Blood Moon and Back to Basics, the same principle applies, as you don't have nearly enough basics to fight those cards. A reconfiguration of the deck could be used to fight those cards, but if you plan on playing Hymn to Tourach (and you should), then it's nearly impossible.

There is some merit to Swamp, Deathrite Shaman fighting those cards, but do you really need the Swamp in those scenarios?

[LarsLeif]

You can definitely run basics if you go with the more UB-version. Also I really don't agree with that GerryT quote. Sure, having basics isn't really protecting you against wasteland specifically (but being able to curve out with basics against wasteland is good) but basics make you able to beat other stuff like Moon/PoP which is pretty huge. Really version dependent as stated before.

[Hanni]

Basics are great when you're colored costs are not very demanding. In all of these 4 color piles I've seen, the colored costs are all over the place. You're going to lose more games to color screw because of basic lands than you're going to win because you have basics to fight against niche hate.

I'll repeat what I said before. Running basics in these color intensive lists is greedy.

[anwei]

Basics are definitely viable and not-too-greedy in non-wasteland, non-hymn lists. The color requirements here are not as severe as in Shardless: you don't need the 3rd(/4th) colors as early or often and the double-colored requirements typically hit later as well.

The main reason to play basics in this sort of list is not to play imperviously to wasteland and/or blood moon. You can struggle to keep green/red up, and if you fetch up your basics against a wasteland deck when short on mana, you may get punished and stuck on lands that can't cast what you need.

The main reason to play them is that you can put yourself in a position where wasteland does nothing on their first couple of turns, so that they're spending cards and land drops to address your 3rd-ish land, you still have 2-3 mana up each turn, and daze is bad. Getting on board and addressing their early threats without exposure to wasteland is good.
(More relevant to Shardless on this point, but Swamp, DRS, Shardless/Lily through wasteland is a very strong opening. This deck is far less interested in making a T2 3-Drop, so it's less relevant.)

[HSCK]

Hoping to get some games in the next week or so with this:

Czech Pile

Creatures: 14
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman

Planeswalkers: 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells: 24
1 Painful Truths
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Kolaghan’s Command
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Lands: 20
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard: 15
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Marsh Casualties
3 Thoughseize

[btm10]

I'd like to discuss some of the flex slots

Removal

I'm back and forth between 3/2/2/1 Decay/Push/Bolt/Command and 3/1/1/2/1 Decay/Push/Dismember/Bolt./Command. Dismember kills Thought-Knot Seer unconditionally and kills Reality Smasher, Tombstalker, and Angler, which Push doesn't do, but we're already fine against Eldrazi and Strixes can generally pick off a fatty or two, but relying on them exposes us to some additional variance from opposing removal. Zero Bolts makes it harder to answer Planeswalkers and makes mana denial slightly more effective against us. Command is sometimes clunky, but it's one of the deck's best grinding tools.

Disruption

I think this largely depends on your threat package. The more you want to be the aggressor, the better Hymn and Inquisition become, but both lose value pretty quickly as you try to be more controlling. Even in the most controlling builds, I like a Thoughtseize/Snare mix and some number of Counterspells (I'm currently on 3/1/2) alongside a playset of Forces.

Dedicated Win Conditions

This isn't a great name since a Leovold and Vendilion Clique have uses beyond simply winning the game, but lack of a clock is the place where this deck is leaving the most EV on the table. TNN, Leo, and Clique all have their benefits, but Trained Armodon isn't much of a clock. I definitely liked Tarmogoyf for its cost and size in the past despite its dying to Fatal Push. Tombstalker could be a more robust replacement, but it's clunkier in matchups like Delver where having a huge body early helps to shut down their offense and end the game before they can answer it.

[theMonster]

I'd like to discuss some of the flex slots

Removal

I'm back and forth between 3/2/2/1 Decay/Push/Bolt/Command and 3/1/1/2/1 Decay/Push/Dismember/Bolt./Command. Dismember kills Thought-Knot Seer unconditionally and kills Reality Smasher, Tombstalker, and Angler, which Push doesn't do, but we're already fine against Eldrazi and Strixes can generally pick off a fatty or two, but relying on them exposes us to some additional variance from opposing removal. Zero Bolts makes it harder to answer Planeswalkers and makes mana denial slightly more effective against us. Command is sometimes clunky, but it's one of the deck's best grinding tools.

Disruption

I think this largely depends on your threat package. The more you want to be the aggressor, the better Hymn and Inquisition become, but both lose value pretty quickly as you try to be more controlling. Even in the most controlling builds, I like a Thoughtseize/Snare mix and some number of Counterspells (I'm currently on 3/1/2) alongside a playset of Forces.

Dedicated Win Conditions

This isn't a great name since a Leovold and Vendilion Clique have uses beyond simply winning the game, but lack of a clock is the place where this deck is leaving the most EV on the table. TNN, Leo, and Clique all have their benefits, but Trained Armodon isn't much of a clock. I definitely liked Tarmogoyf for its cost and size in the past despite its dying to Fatal Push. Tombstalker could be a more robust replacement, but it's clunkier in matchups like Delver where having a huge body early helps to shut down their offense and end the game before they can answer it.

I'm glad someone is finally bringing all this up. I've found this deck pretty hard to build (but a ton of fun to play).

With the removal suites you mentioned, btm10, I assume you're running all non-basics and playing three red sources, right? How many green sources? I worry about playing too many cards in the splash colors and getting, say, Wasted off of them and having too many cards stuck in hand. Then again, I've been running two basics, so perhaps the all-duals plan better allows for an optimal removal suite. I've been playing 2 Push/1 Bolt/2 Decay/1 K-Command/1 Jitte (I've been on TNNs). This configuration is mostly because I'm trying to be primarily :u::b: to make my mana more reliable, but not having the second Bolt against Jace and cards like Mirran Crusader occasionally comes up. And I'd love to find a way to play the third Decay - maybe I move the Jitte to the sideboard and ax a slot there.

Disruption, I've loved Spell Snare. I'm currently on one copy because it's disruption that I can't leave in against Sneak and Show, but it's overperformed. I'm running discard maindeck, too: two Thoughtseize, two Hymns. I feel I can consistently cast Hymn with six black sources (including basic Swamp) and curve out to one of my three TNNs or two Leovolds. But because I'm running Hymn, that means I lose Counterspell, which is probably a mistake in the current metagame. I'm going to GP Vegas, and if I decide to play 4C there, I'd want to tune my list for that metagame, which will inevitably have lots of Miracles. I just worry that DnT is a big part of the paper metagame (especially by me in L.A.), and Counterspell is poor against them. So I'm unsure of which disruption suite I'd play - definitely open to suggestions.

The threats have been hard to figure out, too. In many matchups my TNNs are what win me the game, but they're a huge liability against combo. I've also been on a Tombstalker because there isn't a ton of Miracles locally, but I'm starting to reconsider because it's bad against both Jace and Strix. Tombstalker has won me its fair share of games, though, which is why it's still in my list. But I really miss a 2-drop threat that I can deploy and just forget about. A part of me wonders if a Pyromancer would make sense, even without the Probe/Therapy engine. With all the Snapcaster shenanigans and card advantage drawing into more business spells, I think it might generate enough value to merit consideration as perhaps a one-of. And even if it gets removed early, you're most likely leaving behind at least one Elemental. I'd love to find a way to make these 4C decks a touch more aggressive - not too much, though - but that's probably just a play style thing.

Another card I've been toying with lately is Liliana, the Last Hope. Has anyone tried her? What are your thoughts? It's been a nice way to, say, recover a Pyroblasted TNN or get another Snapcaster trigger. Being answerable by Decay kinda sucks, but ya can't win 'em all. At least it can't get Pyroblasted.

Definitely curious to see what people have experimented with lately.

[jrsthethird]

I'm huge on Liliana, the Last Hope. Being able to pick off Delvers, Elves, and Infect creatures is fantastic, and she gives us another win condition against Miracles. One that can't be interacted with via Terminus. Another card I've been very impressed with is Unearth. It lets us buy back any of our value creatures later in the game. Unearthing a Snap or Strix feels dirty, and running Clique, Leo, or TNN into a FOW just to bring it back next turn for B is gamebreaking.

I played a game vs. Eldrazi where I kept rebuying the same Baleful Strix several times. Unearth, then Snap --> Unearth? So good.

[CptHaddock]

I think that the core pieces of this deck are basically 4 DRS, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder and everything else is up to how you like to play or what you expect the metagame to be like. In general I try to stay away from the 1 offs like Tomas has had in his list on the front page unless they are very powerful on their own. I will say this though, if you aren't play any Kolaghan's Commands though you are probably doing it wrong. That card is extremely well positioned right now.

[btm10]

I'm glad someone is finally bringing all this up. I've found this deck pretty hard to build (but a ton of fun to play).

With the removal suites you mentioned, btm10, I assume you're running all non-basics and playing three red sources, right? How many green sources? I worry about playing too many cards in the splash colors and getting, say, Wasted off of them and having too many cards stuck in hand. Then again, I've been running two basics, so perhaps the all-duals plan better allows for an optimal removal suite. I've been playing 2 Push/1 Bolt/2 Decay/1 K-Command/1 Jitte (I've been on TNNs). This configuration is mostly because I'm trying to be primarily :u::b: to make my mana more reliable, but not having the second Bolt against Jace and cards like Mirran Crusader occasionally comes up. And I'd love to find a way to play the third Decay - maybe I move the Jitte to the sideboard and ax a slot there.

Disruption, I've loved Spell Snare. I'm currently on one copy because it's disruption that I can't leave in against Sneak and Show, but it's overperformed. I'm running discard maindeck, too: two Thoughtseize, two Hymns. I feel I can consistently cast Hymn with six black sources (including basic Swamp) and curve out to one of my three TNNs or two Leovolds. But because I'm running Hymn, that means I lose Counterspell, which is probably a mistake in the current metagame. I'm going to GP Vegas, and if I decide to play 4C there, I'd want to tune my list for that metagame, which will inevitably have lots of Miracles. I just worry that DnT is a big part of the paper metagame (especially by me in L.A.), and Counterspell is poor against them. So I'm unsure of which disruption suite I'd play - definitely open to suggestions.

The threats have been hard to figure out, too. In many matchups my TNNs are what win me the game, but they're a huge liability against combo. I've also been on a Tombstalker because there isn't a ton of Miracles locally, but I'm starting to reconsider because it's bad against both Jace and Strix. Tombstalker has won me its fair share of games, though, which is why it's still in my list. But I really miss a 2-drop threat that I can deploy and just forget about. A part of me wonders if a Pyromancer would make sense, even without the Probe/Therapy engine. With all the Snapcaster shenanigans and card advantage drawing into more business spells, I think it might generate enough value to merit consideration as perhaps a one-of. And even if it gets removed early, you're most likely leaving behind at least one Elemental. I'd love to find a way to make these 4C decks a touch more aggressive - not too much, though - but that's probably just a play style thing.

Another card I've been toying with lately is Liliana, the Last Hope. Has anyone tried her? What are your thoughts? It's been a nice way to, say, recover a Pyroblasted TNN or get another Snapcaster trigger. Being answerable by Decay kinda sucks, but ya can't win 'em all. At least it can't get Pyroblasted.

Definitely curious to see what people have experimented with lately.

Thanks! I'm on all nonbasics, but 3Sea/2 Trop/2 Volc/1 Bayou +2 Wastelands since I think Wasteland is a very important tool, and have been trying out a lot of maindeck green cards (Tarmogoyf, Leovold, Sylvan Library, Decay, even Garruk Relentless a few times) and more out of the board (Golgari Charm, sometimes Loam). If I were to cut a fetch for another dual there's a chance it would be a Badlands since there are times it would be nice to fetch Trop, Badlands to have access to all my colors (and Decay) off of 2 lands.

In testing Liliana, the Last Hope I found that she was great in some matchups (she's almost certainly the best way to manage creatures in the mirror), but too much of what we're already doing a lot of the time, and ultimately cut her because we generate a ton of value already and have cheaper ways to kill creatures.

I'm still kind of flummoxed on win conditions. I mostly care about closing speed against Loam decks and combo, which means that TNN is somewhat unattractive because it's so slow. My other concern is that both TNN and Pyromancer open us up to -1/-1 effects more than we already are, though that vulnerability might be unavoidable.


I'm huge on Liliana, the Last Hope. Being able to pick off Delvers, Elves, and Infect creatures is fantastic, and she gives us another win condition against Miracles. One that can't be interacted with via Terminus. Another card I've been very impressed with is Unearth. It lets us buy back any of our value creatures later in the game. Unearthing a Snap or Strix feels dirty, and running Clique, Leo, or TNN into a FOW just to bring it back next turn for B is gamebreaking.

I played a game vs. Eldrazi where I kept rebuying the same Baleful Strix several times. Unearth, then Snap --> Unearth? So good.

I haven't played Unearth in this shell, but it's been pretty great in other Snapcaster Mage decks where I've played it. I especially like it alongside TNN since it's a way to put it into play without exposing it to a Blast, which is the primary way some decks have to fight it postboard. My only hesitation is that the deck is pretty graveyard reliant already and I'm not sure if I want to expose it to more hate.

[theMonster]

Thanks for the followup, btm10. Lots to unpack here.


Thanks! I'm on all nonbasics, but 3Sea/2 Trop/2 Volc/1 Bayou +2 Wastelands since I think Wasteland is a very important tool, and have been trying out a lot of maindeck green cards (Tarmogoyf, Leovold, Sylvan Library, Decay, even Garruk Relentless a few times) and more out of the board (Golgari Charm, sometimes Loam). If I were to cut a fetch for another dual there's a chance it would be a Badlands since there are times it would be nice to fetch Trop, Badlands to have access to all my colors (and Decay) off of 2 lands.

If you're playing that many green cards, I'd say it makes sense to play all non-basics. I'm curious how you've found both Leovold and the sideboard Loam. I've been playing two Leos alongside three TNNs to force fair decks and Miracles to constantly have answers to my top-end threats, but I'm starting to think that playing five copies of these is too clunky. And I've always thought Loam was a metagame call. Do you think it's good enough right now? Are you playing the third Wasteland in the sideboard like Mar?


In testing Liliana, the Last Hope I found that she was great in some matchups (she's almost certainly the best way to manage creatures in the mirror), but too much of what we're already doing a lot of the time, and ultimately cut her because we generate a ton of value already and have cheaper ways to kill creatures.

I'm still kind of flummoxed on win conditions. I mostly care about closing speed against Loam decks and combo, which means that TNN is somewhat unattractive because it's so slow. My other concern is that both TNN and Pyromancer open us up to -1/-1 effects more than we already are, though that vulnerability might be unavoidable.

I've actually liked Lili against Miracles, too, even if she doesn't affect the board state. A black planeswalker is something they have only a few answers to. Snapcaster can attack it once and then die, or they need to find EE for 3 (tough to manage) or Council's Judgment. I've gotten her to ultimate, and it's gasoline. That said, maybe Unearth is a more efficient and elegant way to recur threats, especially alongside Snapcaster, though to your point, it may be superfluous.

Regarding win cons, this is the thing I'm stuck on the most. I've seen more fair decks than combo around me, so I've been playing the TNNs and Leos and one Tombstalker. But sometimes I wish I just had an aggressive 2-drop for combo, which leads me back to Goyf but makes my mana a little worse because of the additional green cards in the maindeck. How many of these Goyf/Pyro kinds of threats would you play (and which do you prefer)? I've tried a singleton Goyf alongside the Tombstalker, and I didn't hate it. I don't like how good Rest in Peace becomes against the Goyfs and Snapcasters and stuff, but I can live with that. I'm not that concerned about -1/-1 effects because they're less common than spot removal, but getting everything wiped out by a Goglari Charm would certainly feel bad.

I'd love to find a configuration that can grind well but also occasionally tempo out some people - perhaps a pipe dream. I'm gonna try shaving on some value pieces for more midrange potential.

[bigbobbobber]

Have to say, I've been loving this deck. Just saw Rodrigo tweeting about it, saying how adaptable it is to your meta, and I have to agree. I've been having great success with it the last few months, largely I think because of how I've geared it to my local meta. Last few months I'm 20-6 with the deck, and every loss was either to Blood Moon, the card Sneak Attack, or Young Pyromancer. So I found room for three Hydroblast in the sideboard, and viola, last week beat all the problem decks. Awesome toolbox feeling with this deck.

As for threats, I've not had much of a problem finishing once I've established control. An active DRS and an EOT Clique is a decent clock.

[CptHaddock]

Have to say, I've been loving this deck. Just saw Rodrigo tweeting about it, saying how adaptable it is to your meta, and I have to agree. I've been having great success with it the last few months, largely I think because of how I've geared it to my local meta. Last few months I'm 20-6 with the deck, and every loss was either to Blood Moon, the card Sneak Attack, or Young Pyromancer. So I found room for three Hydroblast in the sideboard, and viola, last week beat all the problem decks. Awesome toolbox feeling with this deck.

As for threats, I've not had much of a problem finishing once I've established control. An active DRS and an EOT Clique is a decent clock.

He's giving away my Chandra tech :cry:

[bigbobbobber]

What role exactly does Chandra play? Is she there as may an extra win con with value, or does she filll some gap the deck has?

[CptHaddock]

What role exactly does Chandra play? Is she there as may an extra win con with value, or does she filll some gap the deck has?

She's a bit of both honestly, it's also not very hard to protect her until she can ultimate. My biggest issue against blue decks game 2-3 is that they usually bring in an insane amount of blasts and the majority of your value cards are blue. She can also randomly win games when your opponent slams a turn 1 moon and you have no answers (or basics in your deck).

I'm also a pretty big red mage so I pretty much try to put Chandra in every deck that can play her.

[btm10]

She's a bit of both honestly, it's also not very hard to protect her until she can ultimate. My biggest issue against blue decks game 2-3 is that they usually bring in an insane amount of blasts and the majority of your value cards are blue. She can also randomly win games when your opponent slams a turn 1 moon and you have no answers (or basics in your deck).

I'm also a pretty big red mage so I pretty much try to put Chandra in every deck that can play her.

When I've run Garruk Relentless it's been for much the same reason. Being out of Decay range is also great, though I don't love that he's vulnerable to Bolt. I also like Nissa, Voice of Zendikar more than most.


Thanks for the followup, btm10. Lots to unpack here.



If you're playing that many green cards, I'd say it makes sense to play all non-basics. I'm curious how you've found both Leovold and the sideboard Loam. I've been playing two Leos alongside three TNNs to force fair decks and Miracles to constantly have answers to my top-end threats, but I'm starting to think that playing five copies of these is too clunky. And I've always thought Loam was a metagame call. Do you think it's good enough right now? Are you playing the third Wasteland in the sideboard like Mar?

I've tried both the sideboard Wasteland and 3 maindeck and think your mana is better with the 2/1 split. That being said, I really like 0 Wastelands, 3 red duals, and 3 green duals (10-11/9 fetch/dual split) unless you expect a lot of Lands in your meta. I haven't tried Loam yet, though I have tried a Crucible and been fairly happy with it.



I've actually liked Lili against Miracles, too, even if she doesn't affect the board state. A black planeswalker is something they have only a few answers to. Snapcaster can attack it once and then die, or they need to find EE for 3 (tough to manage) or Council's Judgment. I've gotten her to ultimate, and it's gasoline. That said, maybe Unearth is a more efficient and elegant way to recur threats, especially alongside Snapcaster, though to your point, it may be superfluous.

Liliana the Last Hope is definitely great against Miracles, just worry about having too much value and not enough closing speed. This deck can sometimes make Miracles look like Zoo when it comes to actually winning a game.



Regarding win cons, this is the thing I'm stuck on the most. I've seen more fair decks than combo around me, so I've been playing the TNNs and Leos and one Tombstalker. But sometimes I wish I just had an aggressive 2-drop for combo, which leads me back to Goyf but makes my mana a little worse because of the additional green cards in the maindeck. How many of these Goyf/Pyro kinds of threats would you play (and which do you prefer)? I've tried a singleton Goyf alongside the Tombstalker, and I didn't hate it. I don't like how good Rest in Peace becomes against the Goyfs and Snapcasters and stuff, but I can live with that. I'm not that concerned about -1/-1 effects because they're less common than spot removal, but getting everything wiped out by a Goglari Charm would certainly feel bad.

I'd love to find a configuration that can grind well but also occasionally tempo out some people - perhaps a pipe dream. I'm gonna try shaving on some value pieces for more midrange potential.

Those are all fair points. I usually run 2 dedicated in conditions, but I've tried lots of different splits. TNN, Goyf, Garruk Relentless, Vendilion Clique, Leovold, and Tombstalker are the ones I've tested. I think TNN and Goyf are the most impressive single creatures when it comes to winning games and balancing closing speed, resilience, and ease of casting. Garruk Relentless is pretty swell too, though he's comparatively slow against a lot of decks. If you're heavier on red (or just light on green) Young Pyromancer might be worth trying (with or without Therapy over Thoughtseize; we probably can't afford to run Probe) because he's a great way to contain opposing Pyromancers. My hangups around -1/-1 effects are likely irrational.

[HSCK]

So this deck is about to get a much larger metagame share as it might be the best control deck now.

[mindcrank]

Brought this to the local weekly Sunday Legacy and went 3-1 yesterday. I was still waiting for a Leovold to come in the mail so the list is a little wonky:


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Night's Whisper
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Swamp
1 Island
10 Fetches
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou


Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Painful Truths
1 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fire Covenant
1 Forked Bolt
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Played Miracles (w), BR Reanimator (w), UWr Delver (L), Miracles (w)

Note-able Changes afterwards:

Some changes +1 Invasive Surgery to the board, +1 Leovold main, +1 Badlands -1 Swamp, might cut one fatal push from the main, -1 Painful Truths from the board, Null rod will have to be considered being removed and replaced with something else post-Top banning.

[btm10]

So this deck is about to get a much larger metagame share as it might be the best control deck now.

There's now a much larger question of whether you want Red at all now. Hymn is bonkers against this deck; it might want to become more proactive.

[theMonster]

There's now a much larger question of whether you want Red at all now. Hymn is bonkers against this deck; it might want to become more proactive.

I was thinking the same thing. Hymn was the card that immediately came to mind, both in our decks and against them. Combo should increase, as should Elves. Delver probably ticks up a little to combat combo, and Blood Moon probably increases to fight Delver and 4C (seeing as it's probably the best control deck now). DnT is also probably switching its threat base to include more Mirran Crusaders because there will be fewer Swords to Plowshares around and possibly splash red for Magus of the Moon. If I'm wrong in that assessment, please tell me. This is a lot to process, and I've never played Legacy when Miracles wasn't a thing.

If any of what I said is true, though, how do we adjust? I'd imagine shaving some value in favor of proactivity is correct. Better threats, especially some number of 2-drops, seems mandatory. Pyroblast seems less necessary but still good. How good is Leovold in a Miracle-less metagame? Decay is probably still worth it because it's uncounterable removal against Delver and can get stuff like Chalice and Blood Moon and Jitte/Swords. Do we go back to three colors to keep a better mana base and sacrifice either Decay or K-Command/Pyroblast? Help! haha

[CptHaddock]

I was thinking the same thing. Hymn was the card that immediately came to mind, both in our decks and against them. Combo should increase, as should Elves. Delver probably ticks up a little to combat combo, and Blood Moon probably increases to fight Delver and 4C (seeing as it's probably the best control deck now). DnT is also probably switching its threat base to include more Mirran Crusaders because there will be fewer Swords to Plowshares around and possibly splash red for Magus of the Moon. If I'm wrong in that assessment, please tell me. This is a lot to process, and I've never played Legacy when Miracles wasn't a thing.

If any of what I said is true, though, how do we adjust? I'd imagine shaving some value in favor of proactivity is correct. Better threats, especially some number of 2-drops, seems mandatory. Pyroblast seems less necessary but still good. How good is Leovold in a Miracle-less metagame? Decay is probably still worth it because it's uncounterable removal against Delver and can get stuff like Chalice and Blood Moon and Jitte/Swords. Do we go back to three colors to keep a better mana base and sacrifice either Decay or K-Command/Pyroblast? Help! haha

Is red really the color you want to cut? I feel like if anything green should be lessened. While decay is a good card I feel like you're less inclined to want it so i'm going to relegate mine to the board. Imo the biggest advantage that red offers are the blast effects and maybe bolt. Just having a 1 mana answer your opponent's Leovold/TNN/JTMS is going to be a beating.

I feel like if anything there is going to be an increase in swords since Maverick/Blade decks are going to be back so magus is probably a no no. In making some of these changes I think you can clean up your manabase slightly.

[mindcrank]

I was thinking the same thing. Hymn was the card that immediately came to mind, both in our decks and against them. Combo should increase, as should Elves. Delver probably ticks up a little to combat combo, and Blood Moon probably increases to fight Delver and 4C (seeing as it's probably the best control deck now). DnT is also probably switching its threat base to include more Mirran Crusaders because there will be fewer Swords to Plowshares around and possibly splash red for Magus of the Moon. If I'm wrong in that assessment, please tell me. This is a lot to process, and I've never played Legacy when Miracles wasn't a thing.

If any of what I said is true, though, how do we adjust? I'd imagine shaving some value in favor of proactivity is correct. Better threats, especially some number of 2-drops, seems mandatory. Pyroblast seems less necessary but still good. How good is Leovold in a Miracle-less metagame? Decay is probably still worth it because it's uncounterable removal against Delver and can get stuff like Chalice and Blood Moon and Jitte/Swords. Do we go back to three colors to keep a better mana base and sacrifice either Decay or K-Command/Pyroblast? Help! haha

I think the Magus of the Moon splash in DnT is dope af and I hope to see people play it. Playing Deathrite Shaman and keeping a basic Swamp would combat moon effects if you play smart. As far as DnT in general, 1-2 Dread of Night goes a long way in addressing Mother of Runes and friends. I think this also re-validates keeping red in the deck for lightning bolt, forked bolt and fire covenant.

[theMonster]

I think the Magus of the Moon splash in DnT is dope af and I hope to see people play it. Playing Deathrite Shaman and keeping a basic Swamp would combat moon effects if you play smart. As far as DnT in general, 1-2 Dread of Night goes a long way in addressing Mother of Runes and friends. I think this also re-validates keeping red in the deck for lightning bolt, forked bolt and fire covenant.

Red is definitely powerful. K-Command is gonna be great (if you can cast it) against most fair decks, and with the rise in Blade/Maverick, it gets even better. The three Decay builds of 4C seem unnecessary now - can probably shave to two or even fewer - but my big question is Leovold. Elves will inevitably increase, and he's great against them. If Griselbrand decks rise, he prevents the card draw and buys you time to find answers to the 7/7. Does Leovold get better or worse?

[HSCK]

I think Leo gets better. Brewing with White because I think Mentor is the best finisher for price and StP is better with decks like Blade and Maverick coming out to play.

[mindcrank]

Red is definitely powerful. K-Command is gonna be great (if you can cast it) against most fair decks, and with the rise in Blade/Maverick, it gets even better. The three Decay builds of 4C seem unnecessary now - can probably shave to two or even fewer - but my big question is Leovold. Elves will inevitably increase, and he's great against them. If Griselbrand decks rise, he prevents the card draw and buys you time to find answers to the 7/7. Does Leovold get better or worse?

I think Leovold will be just as consistently good

[mindcrank]

post-ban list:

// main //
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Night's Whisper

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn


// sideboard //
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dread of Night
1 Fire Covenant
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Forked Bolt
1 Pithing Needle

[SeBass]

@mindcrank: I think there will be many viable list and card choises will come down to the expected meta. I am not sure where fire covenant is better than the usual removal spells/sweepers (Golgari Charm/Lightning Bolt/Fatal Push/Dismember/Marsh Casualties). While I see that it can be a 1 for x and kills Eldrazi more reliable, however Strixes should deal with that menace.

Moreover I think there are two approaches to control: Preemptive or reactive, time will tell which approach is better in this shell. I came down on the other side with 3 Thoughtseize and 2 Hymn (I think there are few situations where Inquisition is strictly better than Thoughtseize) instead of Counterspell/Spell Snare an co.

Also my creature base is a little lighter, allowing for more -1/-1 effects since I am not relying on TNN. I also play a Garruk Relentless main, because he can create ridiculous amounts of value, if unopposed. I decided to cut one Ponder for more Removal main, which I find a nice hedge against Bloodmoon. I play one Basic Swamp, which I hope to fetch before Bloodmoon resolves and with an active DRS I should have a fighting chance. I decided against an Island because it doesn't help much getting the Bloodmoon of the table and I wanted to play Wasteland as well, that's why I opted for this compromise.

4c Czech Pile (61)

Lands (20)
4 Poluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp

Creatures (13)
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage

Interaction (9)
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

Card Draw/Selection (9)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Night's Whisper
1 Painful Truths

Plainswalker (3)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless

Removal (8)
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties

Sideboard (15)
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Reanimate
1 Forked Bolt
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Lost Legacy

Things I am still unsure about are:
1) Cut Garruk for a 4th Ponder?
2) Do we need more gravehate? If so Cage? Spellbomb? I'd prefer cage.
3) Do we want to play Engineered Explosives? Maybe in one of the Marsh Casualties slots?
4) I haven't tested some spicy things too much, but Lost Legacy and Reanimate could make for some crazy moves >_<
5) What MU do you think are bad for us?

[Whit3boy316]

Here is my list that I literally just put together. Played against tezzerator and food chain and it felt great but really it needs more time. Anyways feel free to critique. I know that I wanted to play the tnn oppose to baleful because I want to be reactive but yet not really on leo the whole way. I want to turn a corner and be aggressive.

I play against reanimator, dnt, infect, tezzerator, food chain and miracles (or whatever they move too)

4 deathrite
2 Noble
4 true name
2 leovold
2 snapcasters

1 counterspell
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
1 painful truths
1 murderous cut
1 pyroblast
2 k command
4 force of will
1 nights whisper
1 fatal push
3 abrupt decay
1 lightning bolt

2 Jace the mind sculptor

4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
1 scalding Tarns
3 underground sea
2 volcanic island
2 tropical island
1 bandlands
1 bayou
2 wasteland (I just changed this, idk if I like it)

[SeBass]

@Whit3boy316 I think going all in on TNN gives you an edge against fair decks. This also makes the 2 Nobles necessary. I am not sure how good your MU against Delver, especially Grixis, will be, since without equipment they might be able to race. Moreover I think your Combo MU will be pretty bad (at least g1, since I haven't seen your sideboard). You only play one counterspell and one pyroblast alongside the forces.

You stated the decks you usually play against and it seems like there your list could do ok (d&t should be positive, foodchain might be slightly negative and reanimator, especially Br, could be very bad especially the unmask version, miracles isn't a deck anymore).

I think it makes more sense discussing lists that will be competetive in an open meta. Tayloring it to your own local meta should be easy, since this deck has A LOT of flex slots. So far I am not even sure there are much fixed slots :).

Lands (20)
- 0-2 Basics
- 0-2 Wastelands
- 8-10 Fetches
- Duals depending on your build

Creatures
- 4 Deathrites (fix!)
- 0-4 Strixes (however I think going below 2 is incorrect)
- 0-2 Leovold
- 0-2 TNN (I don't think you want more than that, but who knows...)
- 0-1 Vendilion Clique

Countermagic
- 4 FoW (fix)
- 0-2 Counterspell
- 0-2 Spellsnare
- 0-2 Spellpierce

Hand disruption
- 0-2 Hymn
- 0-3 Thoughtseize/Inquisition

Card draw/selection
- 4 Brainstorm (fix)
- 3-4 Ponder (fix)
- 1-2 Painful Truths/Night's Whisper (fix)

Plainswalker
- 1-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (fix)
- 1-2 Liliana of the Veil

Removal
- 2-3 Abrupt Decay (fix)
- ...
Here you can go wild depending on your playstyle and meta, however I think even with miracles gone, Decay is still the most important removal of the format because of versatility and reliability since it can't be countered and hits almost all relevant targets.

What do you think are the decks we should prepare beating for? I think the following are most relevant:
- Elves
- Storm
- BUG Midrange of any kind (including foodchain and Aluren)
- Death and Taxes
- Grixis Delver
- Sneak and Show (including Omnishow)
- Bladedecks
- All Stage/Darkdepths Variants

[Nestalim]

I really can't be sure why the deck is still on the red splash, white seems now definitively stronger. Stp is really better than fatal push and K-Command is a good card against creature deck but I don't think that is enough as an argument.

Pyroblast is a good reason for sure, no doubt about it. But White is giving so much option right now : Lingering Souls is the first in mind, and the card is complete bonker in the deck. C-priest and meddling mage are excellent agains't combo.

[SeBass]

I'm not sure I agree with the white splash. Do you have a list to go along with that suggestion? Yes, StP is better than Fatal Push, however most lists don't play that many. I think combo is beatable with the red splash as well, though obviously it doesn't do much. However, I think it makes our matchup against fair decks much better. The problem with white is, that it does not provide reach, which makes it very hard to deal with plainswalker, especially those with cc>3. Moreover what white sorcery/instant cards besides StP or it's ugly cousin PtE do you think are playable in this shell? I'm not such a big fan of the creatures (CP, MM), because without K-Command they can't be reccured and I can't see how we can afford to play 2 each, also without mom we can't protect them all that well.

Besides I actually think K-Command is one reason to justify the red-splash and pyroblast the other. Command in combination with mage can generate insane amounts of card advantage, while being very versatile and Pyroblast answers so many threats (TNN, Leovold, Jace, Show and Tell, all Counterspells except Flusterstorm, Strix, Delver, ...). I don't see how white could have such a broad answer to the field at this moment. Maybe you can post your list and we can discuss it further.

Has anyone tried playing Hydroblast against Bloodmoon? Maybe with a basic Island in the Manabase? Might be a little bit narrow...could also hit Past in Flames, Sneak Attack, Burn Spells. I am not sure it's worth it, but if Dragon Stompy and R/W Taxes becomes more popular, it may be an idea.

[sikariok9]

This weekend went 6-2 to end up being 12th in a 181 legacy players tournament.

This is the list I played:

Creatures:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trent

Cantrip:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Countermagic:

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

Removal:

2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

Planeswalkers:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (20):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:

2 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Engineered Explosives

[Whit3boy316]

This weekend went 6-2 to end up being 12th in a 181 legacy players tournament.

This is the list I played:

Creatures:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trent

Cantrip:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Countermagic:

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

Removal:

2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

Planeswalkers:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (20):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:

2 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Engineered Explosives

What did you play against?

[SeBass]

How did the 2 Hydroblasts work for you? Did you play against Lands/other Loam Decks where Wasteland would have been relevant? Do you think with 2 K-Commands the 4th Snapcaster is necessary?

[Nestalim]

I'm not sure I agree with the white splash. Do you have a list to go along with that suggestion? Yes, StP is better than Fatal Push, however most lists don't play that many. I think combo is beatable with the red splash as well, though obviously it doesn't do much. However, I think it makes our matchup against fair decks much better. The problem with white is, that it does not provide reach, which makes it very hard to deal with plainswalker, especially those with cc>3. Moreover what white sorcery/instant cards besides StP or it's ugly cousin PtE do you think are playable in this shell? I'm not such a big fan of the creatures (CP, MM), because without K-Command they can't be reccured and I can't see how we can afford to play 2 each, also without mom we can't protect them all that well.

Besides I actually think K-Command is one reason to justify the red-splash and pyroblast the other. Command in combination with mage can generate insane amounts of card advantage, while being very versatile and Pyroblast answers so many threats (TNN, Leovold, Jace, Show and Tell, all Counterspells except Flusterstorm, Strix, Delver, ...). I don't see how white could have such a broad answer to the field at this moment. Maybe you can post your list and we can discuss it further.

Has anyone tried playing Hydroblast against Bloodmoon? Maybe with a basic Island in the Manabase? Might be a little bit narrow...could also hit Past in Flames, Sneak Attack, Burn Spells. I am not sure it's worth it, but if Dragon Stompy and R/W Taxes becomes more popular, it may be an idea.


1 Bayou
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Counterspell
1 Esper Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Night's Whisper
2 Lingering Souls
4 Ponder
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Erase
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast

Probably something like this.

[sikariok9]

It was a full-weekend tournament with all the other formats, being the most popular Modern. that's why I chose to sleeve up a couple of hydroblast (remember Burn is the cheapest deck to build for Legacy, and is a good deck in Modern). The name of the tournament is Arcanis and we often call it Burncanis XD. Also with the fall of miracle, I expected more Sneak attack, more TES, more grixis, more UR Delver...in all this pairings Hydroblast is a god.

My pairings were:

R1 Elves (2-0)

Kill his main threats (symbiote, nettle, etc) counter the glimpse and Natural order. Leovold is good vs them. I played too bad this matches :D

Sided in: explosives, toxic, marsh
Sided out: snares, baleful

R2 Grixis Delver (2-0)

kill the shaman, strix the delver. Easy matchup if he doesnt mess a lot with your lands.
second game was fairly grindy

Sided in: hydros, pyros, explosives, marsh
Sided out: forces, jaces

R3 Big Eldrazi (2-0)

Kolaghan command mvp. In both games had enough counterspells to deal with all is dusts, tks, etc when he casted ulamog from the ugin eye, I could counter it and burn him back with bolt snap bolt

Sided in: Diabolic edict, engineered explosives, thoughtseize
Sided out: Fatal push, leovolds, bolt

R4 TES (0-2)

He comboes me T2 first game post duress
Second game I keep a hand of hydro, pyro, snare, leovold. I pyro his main phase bs,then i draw a force of will so i decide to cast leovold (full tapped). in his turn he duress my fow and goes petal petal led burning empty warrens for 12
I could have waited for 4 lands to cast leo, since both hydro and snare are answers to burning wish, but he had the perfect hand plus a duress.

Sided in: pyros, hydros, flusters, thoughtseizes, explosives
Sided out: bolts, kolaghans, decays, pushes, baleful

R5 High Tide (2-0)

He draws poorly and his deck is fairly easy to counter.

Sided in: pyros, flusters, tgsz, surgicals
Sided out; removals, baleful

R6 Turbo depths (2-0)

Interesting games, first he mull to 4 and almost won me with sejiri steppe to avoid my baleful (lucky I was 19 and had active shaman with his recently death hexmage)
Second game was ridiculous with me drawing only lands and him with 2 elvish spirit guide and 3 not of this world in hand. I managed to fateseal him after he pull out all of my hand.

Sided in: Diabolic edicts, surgical extractions, thoughtseizes, flusterstorms
Sided out: bolts, pushes, leovolds, kolaghans

R7 Infect (0-2)

Dont understand how could I lose this round (opp was a friend of mine), this MU is pretty easy for my deck, but I drew poorly and he had everything he needed in hand. Remember we got 8 removals, 4 snapcasters and 4 baleful :S

Sided in: Diabolic edict, pyroblast, marsh casualties, engineered explosives
Sided out: leovolds and cant remember

R8 Elves (2-1)

Pretty similar to R1, but this player was much better. He got unlucky with mulligans, and finally I managed to grind him out to both games. G1 he went off at T3 and i copuldn't do much more than watch it.

Wasteland is unplayable in a so mana intensive deck, the only game i missed it was versus big eldrazi when he had an active eye of ugin.
Hydroblast underperformed because of my parings (only used it vs grixis and tes), but that was because of the matchups, add there burn and sneak and show and it becomes nuts.

[Serch]

It was a full-weekend tournament with all the other formats, being the most popular Modern. that's why I chose to sleeve up a couple of hydroblast (remember Burn is the cheapest deck to build for Legacy, and is a good deck in Modern). The name of the tournament is Arcanis and we often call it Burncanis XD. Also with the fall of miracle, I expected more Sneak attack, more TES, more grixis, more UR Delver...in all this pairings Hydroblast is a god.


First of all congrats for your result. Did you know what kind of decks were on the Top8-ed?

[sikariok9]

Of course, half of the top8 players were friends of mine!

1st UR Burn
2nd Grixis Delver
3rd-4th Esper Tempo and Infect
5th-8th 2x Infect, UR Burn, Food Chain

[SeBass]

@sikariok9 Congratulations on your finish! Yeah, not beating Infect seems weird, but variance is a thing :). How was the MU against turbodepths without wasteland? Did you feel EE was a better sweeper than -x/-x efffects? You played a counterspell heavy maindeck, do you think especially vs elves and combo a discard heavy Maindeck would have worked the same way? You don't play any card draw like Painful Truth's, was that a problem in grindy games?

@Nestalim While I think there is some merit to the Lingering Souls I think 4 StP are way to much and they don't interact with more problematic cards like TNN, Jace and are dead against combo. I can see making a case for maybe playing 2, but I think Bolt/Fatal Push has greater utility than 2 StP. Also Erase and CP don't make up for the loss of Pyroblast. Esper Charm is quite fancy, but we already have all those effects in BUG colors and 3 mana is quite a lot. With bladedecks becoming more popular, I think ancient grude is very powerful as well. I think the esper colors go along better with a Blade/Control deck than an instant/sorcery based control deck.

Another thing I would like to put up for discussion is how we close the game. TNN seems to be most commomly played, but what about Tombstalker or even Young Pyromancer as a 1-off?

[Whit3boy316]

@sikariok9 Congratulations on your finish! Yeah, not beating Infect seems weird, but variance is a thing :). How was the MU against turbodepths without wasteland? Did you feel EE was a better sweeper than -x/-x efffects? You played a counterspell heavy maindeck, do you think especially vs elves and combo a discard heavy Maindeck would have worked the same way? You don't play any card draw like Painful Truth's, was that a problem in grindy games?

@Nestalim While I think there is some merit to the Lingering Souls I think 4 StP are way to much and they don't interact with more problematic cards like TNN, Jace and are dead against combo. I can see making a case for maybe playing 2, but I think Bolt/Fatal Push has greater utility than 2 StP. Also Erase and CP don't make up for the loss of Pyroblast. Esper Charm is quite fancy, but we already have all those effects in BUG colors and 3 mana is quite a lot. With bladedecks becoming more popular, I think ancient grude is very powerful as well. I think the esper colors go along better with a Blade/Control deck than an instant/sorcery based control deck.

Another thing I would like to put up for discussion is how we close the game. TNN seems to be most commomly played, but what about Tombstalker or even Young Pyromancer as a 1-off?

I've been testing a slightly modified version of the deck that I listed above ( no baleful, 4 tnn, 2 Noble) and it has been great. All the removal alows me to durdle and gives me time to slam down a tnn. Then it basically turn into me controlling the board how I please.....fatal push this, jace bounce that, swing for 3.....it turns a corner very fast. I have really been enjoying it. Have played against dnt, infect, tezzerator and food chain

[MorphBerlin]

I have to catch up with the Threat but I have been working n a 4c List for about 1 week (sad to say goodbye to shardless) and I took it to our weekly local Legacy yesterday and went 4-0 with it.

I played

R1: D&T 2-1

G1 was close as I knew his deck and had a decent starting Hand but I had 0 Cantrips and drew 2 Fow+ CS and was slayn by a recruitered Mirran Crusader after being taxed by 2 Wasteland,1 Port, 2 Revoker (DRS). G2+G3 I boarded it all of my SBStuff (2 F-Bolt, Plaque, Deluge, Edict, 1 Thoughtseize, Needle) and just grinded him out. I never felt in Danger of losing those games even though he had Karakas+Thalia both games.

R2: BRG Zoo/Burn with PoP and Fireblast

He hadn't played in a while and seemed a little rusty. I just out-CA him and fetched for basics and thus invalidaet his PoP (allthough this was not on purpose, I was scared of wasteland, he had 3 Duals an a Fetch out, when I saw the PoP in hand with clique:laugh:)

R3: Grixis/4CDelver 2-0

This felt very faveroable, Just trade 1-for-1 early and then pull ahead with your 3 and 4 drops. G2 was Clsoe (1 Life) but I think he drew 2 Anglers both games, which is like the only really scarry threat (with TNN). Never saw Pyromancer

R4: BUG NicFit 2-ß (actually 4-0 as we palyed more games for fun)

Just value them out and watch out not to get blown out by Cabal Therapy, the 2 Basics invalidate his Explorer, as you keep par on mana and allways have somethin to do with it as well. I even won through Silumgar, the drifting death with DRS+Leovold (PBlastet it the other game) Edict came in really handy here again.

Deck:

20 Lands

4 Delta
4 Tarn
1 Misty
1 Verdant
2 Usea
1 Volc
1 Trop
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland

13 Creatures

4 DRS
3 Strix
3 Snapcaster
1 Tnn
2 Leovold

27 Spells

4 Fow
4 BS
4 Ponder
3 Push
2 Decay
1 L.Bolt
1 K. Comamnd
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Painfull Truths
2 Jace TMS
1 EE

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
1 D. Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
1 E. Plague
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical
2 Forked Bolt
1 Vendillion Clique

[SeBass]

@MorphBerlin Congratulations on your finish (herzlichen Glückwunsch :)). Greedy Manabase, Wastelands&Basics O_O, was that reason to mulligan more frequently? The 3 Fatal Push build worked very well with these pairings I suppose, but against storm, sneak and show etc. it's pretty dead :(. So I think it's a little too much. I think I'd rather play another value card like Painful Truths or Night's Whisper or maybe even a Pyroblast maindeck. The second Push could also be a Dismember to have a reliable removal for delve creatures. Or would you disagree?

[Whit3boy316]

So how do we beat tnn decks? Mainly stone blade? I feel very confident about the matchups other than tnn, sure I can race with mine but if they have Noble I won't win

[sikariok9]

@MorphBerlin Congratulations on your finish (herzlichen Glückwunsch :)). Greedy Manabase, Wastelands&Basics O_O, was that reason to mulligan more frequently? The 3 Fatal Push build worked very well with these pairings I suppose, but against storm, sneak and show etc. it's pretty dead :(. So I think it's a little too much. I think I'd rather play another value card like Painful Truths or Night's Whisper or maybe even a Pyroblast maindeck. The second Push could also be a Dismember to have a reliable removal for delve creatures. Or would you disagree?

Im a huge fan of bolt in this deck, it does everything we want and is never a complete dead card!

I think its impossible to run wasteland in this build.

Also vs tnn I fight G1 in the stack or race him with shaman snap bolt

[MorphBerlin]

@MorphBerlin Congratulations on your finish (herzlichen Glückwunsch :)). Greedy Manabase, Wastelands&Basics O_O, was that reason to mulligan more frequently? The 3 Fatal Push build worked very well with these pairings I suppose, but against storm, sneak and show etc. it's pretty dead :(. So I think it's a little too much. I think I'd rather play another value card like Painful Truths or Night's Whisper or maybe even a Pyroblast maindeck. The second Push could also be a Dismember to have a reliable removal for delve creatures. Or would you disagree?

Thanks Mate (Dankeschön!), the mana base was fine actually and I wouldn't change it for now. If I was to change it, I would go Basicless before cutting Wastelands. Wasteland was so important against Karakas and I think you need it for DDcombo. The Meta was really fair this time, that's true. Normally there is much more Combo around. So you think theremoval is to much?

I just checked the 2 top 23 4c lists from MKM Frankfurt from Carl Meinung and Tomáš Már:



Card
Carl
Tomáš
Me


Strix
4
4
3


Decay
2
2
2


Push
2
1
3


Bolt
1
1
1


K. Command
1
2
1


Other
1 M.Cut
2 Lilli
1 EE



Discard
2 Iok+1 TS
2 Iok+ 1 TS + 2 Hymn
0


Sum
11
12
11



So we are about on the same Level (I run 3 snaps instead of their two), seemes like a good spot for now.

I will probably cut the EE and some other stuff to find room for second k.command and some discard. Allthough I like CS over Hymn and will keep it like that atm. I really don't like the 2 Daze in Carl's list


Im a huge fan of bolt in this deck, it does everything we want and is never a complete dead card!

I think its impossible to run wasteland in this build.

Also vs tnn I fight G1 in the stack or race him with shaman snap bolt

It's defenitly not impossible to run Waseland in this build, as you see both of the guys at MKM did it. Carl even ran 3, allthough I think 2 is the better spot.

Bolt is nice but as I had Island+Swamp I wanted to go down on red as much as possible to be UB in the early turns as much as possible and then fetch for the 3rd Dual for your powerful 3 drops. But you are right, that BoltSnapBolt is a great tool to race, next week I might switch it up.


So how do we beat tnn decks? Mainly stone blade? I feel very confident about the matchups other than tnn, sure I can race with mine but if they have Noble I won't win

Postboard Pyroblast is your best friend. Edict also has bee pretty great and I want to find room for a 2nd one in the SB. I would sa as long as you can keep equipment of the TNN its fine. Having 2 CS main helped me too. Are hey running 4 TNNs? Probalby debends if its Bant, BUG, UW Stoneblade I guess, against 4 you could consider bringing Plague.

[SeBass]

Concerning TNN, I agree countering it - especially in g2/3 - should be our main strategy, -1/-1 effects once they are resolved. I think playing a Golgari Charm Main can be justified in the current meta (Elves, D&T, Pyromancer, Empty the Warrens, Bloodmoon, maybe even, but thats a little fringe, counteracting a supreme verdict ^^) and a Marsh Casualties at least in the SB as well.

About the Manabase: I'd like to play wastelands as well for obvious reasons, but I feel we can either go Basics OR wastelands. The reason for playing basics should be clear as well. In the end I think it's going to be a meta call everyone has to make for himself and decide whether he thinks Bloodmoon or flying 20/20 are going to lose him (or her :tongue:) the game. The same goes for oposing wastelands and other utility lands, though I think they are not as big of a blowout as bloodmoon and marit lage are.

Concerning countermagic, I don't think we should play daze in this shell since we don't want to outtempo the opponent, we want to outgrind them. This is just not what daze does. On the contrary, in the mid to lategame Daze is dead and thereby cardDISadvantage. I like playing discard in the maindeck rather than countermagic and bring in countermagic postboard. I think there are still enough fair decks around to warrant this approch. Especially the MU against Bladedecks benefits from this I think.

@MorphBerlin Yeah as stated before, since you play 3 Snapcaster Mages I would cut at least 1 Fatal Push and maybe replace the second one with a dismember, about this I am less sure though.

[Whit3boy316]

Do you guys like the 4 strix? I run 0 and I have loved it hit I am curious about why he is an auto include

[MorphBerlin]

Do you guys like the 4 strix? I run 0 and I have loved it hit I am curious about why he is an auto include

The question is, what do you include that is better then strix after you cut them.

[A21ClownSalute]

Hey all. Good stuff here, let's keep it going. I used to be a shardless player and have since adopted this deck and haven't looked back. This deck was great in a field of miracles and I still think it is a solid choice in a post top world. I've been playing this deck enough in local events and in bigger settings like SCG opens and classics where I felt like I perfected it in a miracles world. I don't think a lot changes now. I've only played in one local since the ban but went 4-0. I believe the list below to be a great starting point going forward. Keep in mind some choices are geared to a local meta, but there isn't much I'd change if I was to register for a bigger event tomorrow.

//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

//Sorceries
4 Ponder
1 Night's Whisper
1 Thoughtseize

//Instants
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Counterspell
2 Fatal Push
1 Spell Snare

//Artifacts
1 Engineered Explosives

//Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Fatal Push
SB: 1 Marsh Casualties

[sikariok9]

Your list is pretty similar to mine! How does the EE perform? You run a lot of singletons, Im not a big fan of them

[A21ClownSalute]

Your list is pretty similar to mine! How does the EE perform? You run a lot of singletons, Im not a big fan of them

I went back and forth on a maindeck EE for awhile. I got tired of losing to resolved TNN everywhere I played. I'm kind of bias because I always like having answers like EE main that way I know I just can't strait up lose to problem permanents. The singletons aren't anything out of the ordinary. The deck sees and draws so many extra cards the singletons can just be so powerful. Like I said though, I'm a very bias magic player but I don't post decks on forums like this unless I'm sure they are a solid 72 or so cards, if that makes sense.

[Whit3boy316]

The question is, what do you include that is better then strix after you cut them.

I run 4x tnn and 2x Noble

[sikariok9]

why all this hype about TNN...this card is bad designed and strictly OP, but does strictly nothing vs combo decks...apart from pitching to fow!
I'm thinking of cutting out the spell snares, for thoughtseizes main deck...I don't think they will perform as good as they did miracle era

[Whit3boy316]

why all this hype about TNN...this card is bad designed and strictly OP, but does strictly nothing vs combo decks...apart from pitching to fow!
I'm thinking of cutting out the spell snares, for thoughtseizes main deck...I don't think they will perform as good as they did miracle era

I think you answered your own question. Do you baleful strix is better in combo? I would say it is against like reanimator and sneak and show....bit I don't play against those very often, my meta is full of creatures and fair deck.

[rlesko]

How does this deck beat lands?

[MorphBerlin]

How does this deck beat lands?

I haven't played against them yet, but I think it's the usual BUG aproach: Try to protect DRS with counters from p. fire. Uuse Wasteland, Edict, etc to keep them from comboing and hope you draw surgical, playing basics heelps alot

[MorphBerlin]

I run 4x tnn and 2x Noble

Ok I see it as a diffenert deck the, more tempo than control, also with 4 TNN I would see a huge incentive to run SFM an go all in on (dark) bant

[SeBass]

I think you answered your own question. Do you baleful strix is better in combo? I would say it is against like reanimator and sneak and show....bit I don't play against those very often, my meta is full of creatures and fair deck.

I do get why you would play a singleton, but playing the full playset makes no sense in this shell when cutting strix for it. Strix is a virtual 2 for 1 and cardadvantage is the principle of this deck. 4 TNN and 2 Hierachs plays much more like Reid Dukes list, therefore if you want to play tempo, you should probably play dazes. So I agree with MorphBerlin, that we are talking about another deck by now!

[sikariok9]

How does this deck beat lands?

G1 is a pretty hard matchup (i dont run wasteland) if they get a punishing fire online and or waste loam you are done.
G2 changes since you run surgical, discard and mvp diabolic edict

[SeBass]

Lands is a hard one, I guess ironically we are the beatdown in this one, game one can be really hard. DRS is the MVP here and should be protected as well as you can. It answers most of their threats. Putting on a lot of pressure early is important.
Game two get's a little better (Surgicals, Edict, Pithing Needle) but I still think it's an unfavorable matchup but not unwinnable. The key to success is closing games out as fast as possible, therefore I'd leave bolt in just to bolt face and snap it back, 14dmg to go =].

[MorphBerlin]

Hey all. Good stuff here, let's keep it going. I used to be a shardless player and have since adopted this deck and haven't looked back. This deck was great in a field of miracles and I still think it is a solid choice in a post top world. I've been playing this deck enough in local events and in bigger settings like SCG opens and classics where I felt like I perfected it in a miracles world. I don't think a lot changes now. I've only played in one local since the ban but went 4-0. I believe the list below to be a great starting point going forward. Keep in mind some choices are geared to a local meta, but there isn't much I'd change if I was to register for a bigger event tomorrow.

//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

//Sorceries
4 Ponder
1 Night's Whisper
1 Thoughtseize

//Instants
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Counterspell
2 Fatal Push
1 Spell Snare

//Artifacts
1 Engineered Explosives

//Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Fatal Push
SB: 1 Marsh Casualties

Hi, I see we almost play the same MD, I think the core of the set is shaping out allready, with all of the flex slots being justifiable.
What's your reasoning behind whisper over truths?

Also why do you play Lavamancer and fatal push over forked Bolt?
Where so you bring in Lili, to me 2 seem enough and better against lands and not BB.
What do you think of marsh casualties vs e. Plague?

[NegatorITA]

is the pellenik version of the deck discussed here as well or it has its own topic (which I cannot find?)
(for whose doesn't know it, it doesnt pack discard but countermagic and runs full set of snappy

[SeBass]

@NegatorTIA If you scroll a little back, you will see that both versions are discussed in this thread. It seems you either play a counter heavy or discard heavy version. I'm not sure as of yet, which one I like better. I guess it depends on meta and playstyle mainly. But we will see, time will tell, maybe one is better than the other.

[NegatorITA]

@NegatorTIA If you scroll a little back, you will see that both versions are discussed in this thread. It seems you either play a counter heavy or discard heavy version. I'm not sure as of yet, which one I like better. I guess it depends on meta and playstyle mainly. But we will see, time will tell, maybe one is better than the other.

So I'm in the right place, I probably missed it while scrolling.

I still see people running decay maindeck, is that really a need now? I was trying with that list:

4 strix
4 deathrite
4 snappy
2 true name nemesis

1 Jitte
2 jace, the mind sculptor

3 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's command

4 Force of will
2 Counterspell

3 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

20 lands

Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edicts
2 marsh casualties
2 reb
2 flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 umezawa's jitte
2 vendilion clique
1 push/edict/engineered plague

Kolaghan covers most decay targets while technically nullyfing SfM&equips, takes care of nearly the majority of the permanents running around lately if you think about it, the only dangerous ones it lefts aside are Blood moon/Rest in peace/Back To Basic, plus it follow the philosofy of having much card advantage as possible.
in this aspect, I probably didn't like the 3x of Thoughtseize: It was fine, but maybe 1 Painful thrut/Night's whisper would be better, hell, even a third Jace or another Planeswalker would do (Nissa? Garruk? Wish we had something like the Gideon, ally of zendikar in our sleeve)
Also the sideboard may need some Blue Elemental Blast, to combat Moon, or more ReB to check BTB if they comes preminent.

Thoughs?
About the nemesi over leovold:
I think we need nemesis somewhere now that we dropped the bolts, when playing with 4 bolts the plan of actually killing someone with the chain made of Bolt-snapcaster-bolt was real, now it's no more, nemesi is something that fall through without any problem, I'd rather consider vendilion maindeck than Leovold in that slot, but that's my opinion., also, dealing with other nemesis is super important too, so bad that Marsh Casualties is like the best option out there :/

[btm10]

So I'm in the right place, I probably missed it while scrolling.

I still see people running decay maindeck, is that really a need now?

Destroying enchantments and being uncounterable are not to be underestimated when playing a control deck. I also wouldn't go to zero Bolts.

[NegatorITA]

Destroying enchantments and being uncounterable are not to be underestimated when playing a control deck. I also wouldn't go to zero Bolts.


yes sir,
The list which played 2 bolt / 2 push 2 decay / 2 kolaghan seems to have its purposes.
May try to go down that route!

Sideboard may be a pain though, and I still believe / wishes we had a third walker:
I don't like Liliana at all:
While providin a possible solution to TNN, it makes us discard while I'd just hold my cards... that's seems silly here.
New nissa "seems" nice, but I know already it's a little too soft.
Tryed Dack once, but it was so and so because we can't really have much bunus from the mill (it digs though and snappy soften the loss), the stealing ability was nice though, robbing strixes or equip was always fun.
Painful Truth was never pleasing, heavy and three life are much, probably Night's whisper are better.

[btm10]

I played Nissa, Voice of Zendikar in Reid Duke/Noble BUG and it was pretty solid. Or did you mean XUG Nissa? Not a fan of Liliana either, though I like Thoughtseize as the dexk's 1 CMC interaction with a couple of Counterspells up the curve. Basically, I'd run the 75 for this I ran before the Top ban of I were to play it again, but I seem to be locked on the Delver train for now.

[NegatorITA]

I played Nissa, Voice of Zendikar in Reid Duke/Noble BUG and it was pretty solid. Or did you mean XUG Nissa? Not a fan of Liliana either, though I like Thoughtseize as the dexk's 1 CMC interaction with a couple of Counterspells up the curve. Basically, I'd run the 75 for this I ran before the Top ban of I were to play it again, but I seem to be locked on the Delver train for now.


talking about the UGX nissa, the other one may be interesting.
Which delver? Grixis?

[btm10]

talking about the UGX nissa, the other one may be interesting.
Which delver? Grixis?

BUG with Hymns.

[SeBass]

I think I have a couple of points to make here:

Removal Suit: I play the following at the moment: Push/Bolt/Dismember/Decay/Command (1/1/1/2/2) and Golgari Charm and Marsh Casualties as 1-offs Maindeck. It needs more testing, but so far I am quite happy with it. If I was to cut one, then probably the Casualties. Playing more then 2 K-Command seems wrong to me. They are super strong and versatile in many MU, but they can be a little bit cluncy with the cmc3. And playing 3 Snappies should make for enough commands for one game usually. What btm10 said about AD sums it up pretty well I guess. Also with Grixis Delver being played quite frequently, having a clean answer to Angler is important. That's why I opted to go for a Dismember instead of a second Bolt or Push.

Snapcaster Mage: I see how you can make a case for 2 or 3 but I don't think that's neccesarily true for 1 or 4. I think 1 is definately wrong and we won't be having a discussion about that. Playing the full playset however feels a little bit too much. We don't want im in our starting 7 as bad as Deathrite Shaman, moreover in the early game (few targets in the graveyard, mana quite restricted) drawing a second one is VERY dead. So in my opinion 3 is the correct number.

Planeswalker: If you want a 3rd Plainswalker I really recommend going with Garruk Relentless, maybe in the sideboard for fair decks. Or in you version Maindeck replacing Jitte. I see how it kinda fits in the concept of this deck, but I am not really sold on it. Garruk, if not handled quickly, will take over the game pretty quickly. I don't really know how I feel about Nissa. In all honesty I haven't even considered her :), god forgive tested her.

TNN over Leovold: To me that seems batshit crazy :D. But maybe my approach with Golgari Charm and Marsh Casualties maindeck might be a little different than yours is. Maybe mine is a stricter control approach while you are trying to go more aggro/control, if that makes any sense. I'd rather fight opposing TNNs with -x/-x effects and have Leovold, who is insanely OP atm (cantrips, elvish visionary, jace, wasteland, thought-knot seer, port, all removal, ...).

[Whit3boy316]

I think I have a couple of points to make here:

Removal Suit: I play the following at the moment: Push/Bolt/Dismember/Decay/Command (1/1/1/2/2) and Golgari Charm and Marsh Casualties as 1-offs Maindeck. It needs more testing, but so far I am quite happy with it. If I was to cut one, then probably the Casualties. Playing more then 2 K-Command seems wrong to me. They are super strong and versatile in many MU, but they can be a little bit cluncy with the cmc3. And playing 3 Snappies should make for enough commands for one game usually. What btm10 said about AD sums it up pretty well I guess. Also with Grixis Delver being played quite frequently, having a clean answer to Angler is important. That's why I opted to go for a Dismember instead of a second Bolt or Push.

Snapcaster Mage: I see how you can make a case for 2 or 3 but I don't think that's neccesarily true for 1 or 4. I think 1 is definately wrong and we won't be having a discussion about that. Playing the full playset however feels a little bit too much. We don't want im in our starting 7 as bad as Deathrite Shaman, moreover in the early game (few targets in the graveyard, mana quite restricted) drawing a second one is VERY dead. So in my opinion 3 is the correct number.

Planeswalker: If you want a 3rd Plainswalker I really recommend going with Garruk Relentless, maybe in the sideboard for fair decks. Or in you version Maindeck replacing Jitte. I see how it kinda fits in the concept of this deck, but I am not really sold on it. Garruk, if not handled quickly, will take over the game pretty quickly. I don't really know how I feel about Nissa. In all honesty I haven't even considered her :), god forgive tested her.

TNN over Leovold: To me that seems batshit crazy :D. But maybe my approach with Golgari Charm and Marsh Casualties maindeck might be a little different than yours is. Maybe mine is a stricter control approach while you are trying to go more aggro/control, if that makes any sense. I'd rather fight opposing TNNs with -x/-x effects and have Leovold, who is insanely OP atm (cantrips, elvish visionary, jace, wasteland, thought-knot seer, port, all removal, ...).

I actually feel opposite on the tnn vs leovold issue. I run 3 tnn and 2 Leo and as much as I want leo to be better I find tnn just makes me win. Sure I get a card from Leo and they can't draw, they still just kill it, when I slam tnn I say " now you have to race me" and thanks to the removal this deck has I usually wind up on top.

[ashent]

5 3 drop creatures in a deck full of 3/4 Snapcasters feels really top heavy.

I'm playing 2 Leo/1 TNN so it's not THAT much of a stretch but that seems pretty crazy to me. How did you come up with the room to fit that many creatures? If you say trim Baleful Strix I'm going to disagree.

[Whit3boy316]

5 3 drop creatures in a deck full of 3/4 Snapcasters feels really top heavy.

I'm playing 2 Leo/1 TNN so it's not THAT much of a stretch but that seems pretty crazy to me. How did you come up with the room to fit that many creatures? If you say trim Baleful Strix I'm going to disagree.

4 drs
3 baleful
3 tnn
2 snaps
2 leovold

Ive been thinking of going to 2tnn and 4 strix, I'd even like to find a place for a 3rd snappy

[SeBass]

I actually feel opposite on the tnn vs leovold issue. I run 3 tnn and 2 Leo and as much as I want leo to be better I find tnn just makes me win. Sure I get a card from Leo and they can't draw, they still just kill it, when I slam tnn I say " now you have to race me" and thanks to the removal this deck has I usually wind up on top.

I think what you are saying is true if you ignore >50% of the meta at the moment. I think TNN beats Leo against aggro/fair decks. Against combo Leo >>> TNN, since TNN is like a 7 Turn clock and combo is removal light usually. So vs. Combo Leovold is definately king and the meta seems to become combo heavier. Moreover, against fair decks I think our matchup is quite favorable as it is without TNN. Thats why I am playing the Elf over the Merfolk Rouge. I can see however how you can make a case for a 1off TNN, but I wouldn't know what to cut and I don't think I need it at the moment.

[Whit3boy316]

I think what you are saying is true if you ignore >50% of the meta at the moment. I think TNN beats Leo against aggro/fair decks. Against combo Leo >>> TNN, since TNN is like a 7 Turn clock and combo is removal light usually. So vs. Combo Leovold is definately king and the meta seems to become combo heavier. Moreover, against fair decks I think our matchup is quite favorable as it is without TNN. Thats why I am playing the Elf over the Merfolk Rouge. I can see however how you can make a case for a 1off TNN, but I wouldn't know what to cut and I don't think I need it at the moment.

I think I will move to:

4drs
4baleful
2tnn
2leo
2snaps

I want the tnn for dnt, which I play all the time. It's all I have other than bolt that can deal with mirron crusader. I'd like to get to 3 snaps but i will test what I have first and make changes.

One thing I want to ask, do you painful truths or nights whisper? I ran a 1/1 split and really liked it but I found I would end up with u cards in my hand in the late game and although that's good I'm not sure if I needed all that, I had the games in my control at that point

[HSCK]

I think I will move to:

4drs
4baleful
2tnn
2leo
2snaps

I want the tnn for dnt, which I play all the time. It's all I have other than bolt that can deal with mirron crusader. I'd like to get to 3 snaps but i will test what I have first and make changes.

One thing I want to ask, do you painful truths or nights whisper? I ran a 1/1 split and really liked it but I found I would end up with u cards in my hand in the late game and although that's good I'm not sure if I needed all that, I had the games in my control at that point

I have definitely enjoyed using this creature set up.

[pocari79]

Tried this deck for the first time this past Sunday at one of our legacy monthlies. I decided to take the maindeck of the latest Tomas Mar list that he used for MKM Frankfurt. I changed the sideboard a bit because I felt like there was going to be a bit more Burn and UR Delver around so I submitted this:

2 Flusterstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Forked Bolt
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Life from the Loam
1 Invasive Surgery

I ended up going 3-2-1 with my losses being Merfolk and Burn, the draw with Reid Duke TNN and wins against High Tide, UW Stoneblade and Infect.

I made tons of misplays against Merfolk and I felt like I could have at least won game 2 but that was the first time I've played the deck plus first time playing magic in like 1.5 months so the rust was really there.

One thing I found out is that this deck has so much value but it has such a hard time closing out games. I was frequently amongst the last people playing in the round and I thought that I played in a timely manner.

Also felt like the maindeck Hymn made it extremely hard on the manabase as if you wanted to cast it on the second turn, you can't have green mana at all since you only have Tropical Islands for your green source or you'd have to fetch a Badlands and risk that red source being Wastelanded.

Every time I resolved a Kolaghan's Command it felt like I just blew out my opponent. I can't imagine going below 2 copies.

Invasive Surgery just feels super underwhelming since it's really hard to get Delirium against combo decks.

Next time I play the deck, I'll probably want to make these adjustments:
Maindeck: -2 Hymn to Tourach, +2 True-Name Nemesis
Sideboard: -1 Forked Bolt, -1 Invasive Surgery, +2 Hymn to Tourach (or some counterspells)

[SeBass]

@pocari79 Maybe you should adjust your manabase, rather then cutting Hymn to Tourach. I like playing a Bayou. I agree on Invasive Surgery being underwhelming. You always lack a creature in the graveyard against combo. After some testing I am not sure how I feel about the 3 Thoughtseize maindeck. More often than not, they don't feel that impactful in so many matchups.
Closing games is very hard to, since you don't really have a good clock. Maybe I'll try a 1-off Tombstalker or a Garruk Relentless. I think there are still many moving parts in our decklists and it will be quite interessting where things will go from here. How are those people playing multiple TNNs feeling about this? Is it easier for you to close games? How is your combo matchup?

[Whit3boy316]

I don't play any discard and I feel fine with that. I ran 0 baleful and 4 tnn personally it felt great until I played against delver, so I have moved to 4 baleful and 2 tnn along with the 2 leovolds. As much as I like leovold as a card, he has been pretty underwhelming where as tnn I feel I cannot lose

[Hanni]

One thing I found out is that this deck has so much value but it has such a hard time closing out games. I was frequently amongst the last people playing in the round and I thought that I played in a timely manner.

Maindeck Jitte would go a long way towards closing games out while providing more of what this deck wants to do. It turns your collection of incidental bodies into large-sized threats while giving you the ability to machine-gun down creatures if need be.

[Whit3boy316]

Played maybe 8 games against dnt and got WRECKED. This after last week when I would crush him. I moved away from the 2 noble/4 tnn plan and have gone to the stand 4 strix 2 snap....felt really bad

[MorphBerlin]

Played really poorly yesterday to a 1-3 finish, made many mistakes and was on the wrong end of some bad luck. Played +2 Thoughtseize -1 EE -1 Spell Pierce Main and +1 Diabloic Edict -1 T.Seize Sfor rhe SB:

R1 Grixis Delver 1-2

G1 I have almost no Removel and my Force on TNN gets forced back so I lose. Last play of the game he shows me Stifle even though it doesn't matter for the win, which I am happy over because I can use this Info for Boarding
G2 I Make sure to get my Landdrops and jsut outvalue him and slowly ping him to death
G3 I almost won, burning him out,despite going through 3 Wastelands and 3 Stifles, which leaves me at 1 Swamp most of the game.

SB:
OTP: 2 4 FOW, 2 TS, 1 P. Truths, 1 Jace
OTD: -2 FOW, -2 TS, 1. Trtuh, 2 Jace, 1 CSpell
In: 2 Pyro, 2 Fluster, 2 Edict, 1 Deluge, 1 Clique

R2 RUG TITI control with P.Fire, TNN 1-2

G1 I don't now what he is on, so he gets to Fire all my stuff away which gives him alot of CA until I finally find wasteland it's too late
G2 Surgical+Jace win after grinding him out
G3 I don't have surgical or Wasteland, I cant close him out in time so he Burns me out -> very close

SB:
- 4 Fow, -3 Strix, -2 Push
+ 2 Fluster + 2PBlast +2 Surgial +1 Clique +?

R3 Shadless BUG 2-1

My old love... just grind them out, this MU feels almost unlosable unless you get hymmed too hard. G2 I should have won as well

SB
-4 FOW -?
+2 Pblast+2 Fluster+1 Clique

R4 D&T 0-2

G1 Feels very bad and couldn't win again, even though drawing better than last time.
G2 I don't have the cards to stop the Flicker+Recruiter Engine in time. He presents too many treats (2 Vials, SFM(BSkull), Later Jitte, 2 Mirran Crusaders) so I end up almost 1 step behind

SB
-4 FOW, -2 CS, -1 Spell Snare, 1 TS
+2 Forked Bold, +2 Edict, +1 Clique, +1 Plague, +1 Deluge+ 1 Needle

I will keep in TS next time, because I have they leave Vial open on 3 its jsut to though too avoid the Flicker shenanigans

[Poron]

a deck full of 1 power, cheap, tricky creatures seems the perfect fit for Smuggler's Copter

To cast Baleful Strix, draw then tap it to Copter seems like a huge CA play to me. It also feeds DRS if needed

[Whit3boy316]

a deck full of 1 power, cheap, tricky creatures seems the perfect fit for Smuggler's Copter

To cast Baleful Strix, draw then tap it to Copter seems like a huge CA play to me. It also feeds DRS if needed

I think I may drop leovold and move more to tnn as a finisher. My meta is full of stp, bolt and fatal push so 3mana to draw a card has been very underwhelming

[Poron]

Also, Czech Pile is great and also if CounterTop was still around it should just go higher on the amount of Rebs and Decay.

I think we have the control deck for next meta.
2 TNN seems legit as well as
4 split Bolt/Push
2 Decay
2 Command

[Whit3boy316]

Does everyone like counterspell + spell snare main rather than counterspell + spell piece?

[MorphBerlin]

Does everyone like counterspell + spell snare main rather than counterspell + spell piece?

I played both to start with and I think they are about equal on the powerlevel but Snare is better vs. non-blue decks I think, so its not dead as often.
Also lategame it tends to be better I think.

To the previous posts: I might agree that 2 TNN are necessary to make sure we can close out the game. I defenitly lost some games were I was ahead, just because I couldn't kill my opponent. I agree with Whiteboy, that getting Leovold Boltet or decayed doesn't feel like a big win somehow. Other times he is just insane though so I am incoclusive atm.

[inevitablepnut]

I think volraths stronghold is a must if you are still running loam.

[inevitablepnut]

I've been considering a list very similar to this.ever consider running another loam, stonghold, and dark depths, stage as alt finisher?

[MorphBerlin]

I think volraths stronghold is a must if you are still running loam.

I don't think it fits in this deck an I wouldn't run it (I don't run loam but even if I did)

[Poron]

I have to say that Pile + Intuition/Loam package is very sweet

2 Intuitiom
1 Loam
1 Academy Ruins
1 E.E.

Utility Stuff
Volrath's Stronghold (for Strix)
Ensnaring Bridge

Also this color pile open to Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnillows, which is something impossibly strong in modern meta.

[MorphBerlin]

I have to say that Pile + Intuition/Loam package is very sweet

2 Intuitiom
1 Loam
1 Academy Ruins
1 E.E.

Utility Stuff
Volrath's Stronghold (for Strix)
Ensnaring Bridge

Also this color pile open to Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnillows, which is something impossibly strong in modern meta.

Agreed with the weakness to Pfire. It get's better after SBing though (2 Surgical) so I would not put so much clunky stuff in my deck for questionable pay out. I will combat the pfire issue with going up to 2 TNN.

[Whitefaces]

Loam, Academy and Intuition honestly sounds like a terrible idea. Not what this deck wants to be doing at all.

[Poron]

I agree the Intuition package is clunky. Just why don't we play ourselves PFire? it gives us much more inevitability and kills 90% of the creatures in the format.

[MorphBerlin]

I agree the Intuition package is clunky. Just why don't we play ourselves PFire? it gives us much more inevitability and kills 90% of the creatures in the format.

Groove doesn't give Blue

[Whit3boy316]

I played both to start with and I think they are about equal on the powerlevel but Snare is better vs. non-blue decks I think, so its not dead as often.
Also lategame it tends to be better I think.

To the previous posts: I might agree that 2 TNN are necessary to make sure we can close out the game. I defenitly lost some games were I was ahead, just because I couldn't kill my opponent. I agree with Whiteboy, that getting Leovold Boltet or decayed doesn't feel like a big win somehow. Other times he is just insane though so I am incoclusive atm.

Do you still currently play snare + pierce along with cspell? I've been thinking about which to add if not both. How many do you play?

[MorphBerlin]

Do you still currently play snare + pierce along with cspell? I've been thinking about which to add if not both. How many do you play?

I played 2 CSpell + 1 Pierce+ 1 Snare last week and 2 Cspell +1 Snare this week. I like the second configuraion better

[sikariok9]

Looking at the meta, I switched to 2 counterspell + 2 snare to 2 cspell + 2 thoughtseize.
Also thinking about spell pierce...

[ashent]

I've been playing the two Thoughtseize online and it's very helpful as a hedge against the combo decks and is rarely dead like a Spell Pierce can be.

So this is my current list (online, I run 1 Waste in paper and a Badlands/extra fetch) I think it needs tuning with the Top ban, but feels really good most of the time.

Island
Swamp
9 Fetch
2 Trop
3 Sea
2 Volc
3 Wasteland
====
4 DRS
4 Snap
3 Baleful Strix
1 TNN
2 Leovold
====
2 Jace
====
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will

In paper my list is slightly different because my mana base in paper is easier to work with, so I cut down to 1 Wasteland and have much more stable mana. That's a different discussion. I want to discuss the Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Push, Bolt, Decay etc configuration for a metagame expecting a lot of Storm and Delver. I also run 1 KCommand in paper but don't own one online.

I am close to wanting to cut a Pierce but it can be a life saver in the combo matchups and occasionally snags fair cards also like turn 1 Chalices or Planeswalkers. It also helps shore up the Storm matchup which I've been terrified of with its rise online.

[MorphBerlin]

I can see that ashent and the list others posted are 90-95% the same as mine, so I think we are aproching the optimal build for now, with about 4 flex slots to tune for the expected metagame and 2 versions of the Mana base.

@Ashent: I think your build is pretty geared towards combo like this. I would swamp the Pierce for a Bolt to hav 4 1CMC Removal spells. And I would use bolt because it does more in the combo MU as it let's you close out ~1 Turn quicker, which is actually a huge problem for this deck. I would defenitly run a K.Command main. 2 seeems too clunky but it's amazing what this card can do. I would probably cut the 2nd decay before not playing it.

Not sure about 3 Wastelands, but until now I found 2 is not enough but 3 seems to much and we loose anothe MD slot because we need 21 lands then (as you rightfully did). So this is a bit of a Dilemma here.

[ironclad8690]

I played the dude who's name is 7 L's list in a couple leagues and went 3-2 and 4-1. Pretty sweet deck. I really like the 2 Kommands.

[MorphBerlin]

3-0-1 today with almost the same List as Tuesday but,
Main: -1 Snap +1 TNN
Side: -1 Plague +1 Snap

Report will follow.

How is you stand on Plague vs. Deluge vs. Something like Marsh Casualties

R1 ANT OTD 2-1

G1 I mull a no-lander into Ts, Snare, 2 Lands and crap and think it won't get better on 5. I die on T2 through the TS
G2 I keep a mediore 7 but it has BS, I find a Force on T2 with it. He goes all in and looses a lot of resources in the process, so he can't recover from my force
G3 I keep a good hand with no pressure, allthou it's so blue I can deny everything he does (after going all in again) I win pretty easily

SB
-2 Push -2 TNN - 1 Truths - 1 Strix - 1 K. Command - 1 Jace 1 Decay
+2 Fluster +2 Pyroblast +2 Surgical + Clique + Snap + TS

G2 Jund OTD 2-1

G1 I win a pretty close Race where I have to get.rid of his PFire with DRS + Counter
G2 My hand is too slow to fight 3 Goys beating face
G3 I ultimate Jace and he dies with 2 BBE in hand after.I bottom all his lands and.kilk the rest

SB
-4 Fow -2 TS
+2 Fluster +2 Surgical +1 Snap +1 Clique

R3 Esper Control OTD 2-0

G1 I win after already giving up in it because I get Hymed T 2+3 which I snare and Force, and Snap+Hymn on T4 which resolves. So I'm without any hand but I draw 2 TNN which is an absurd magic card. He only has 1 Council's Judgement but I draw 2 Snaps to pull through and Race a Sorin which makes 2 Vampires before dying.
G2 I fall behind and get beat down by 2-3 Strix" but end up resolving a Jace and push it to the Ultimate

-2 Push -4 Fow -1 Decay
+2 pyroblast + 2 Fluster +1 Edict +1 Snap +1 Clique

R4 Mirror but he plays Hymn and Lili

G1 I draw.all the answers 1 Turn to late after.getting hit by t1 IoK and T2 TS which takes brainstorm an Painful Truths I almost.come back and race with TNN but he has Fow ponder as his last two cards for my snap
G2Long.grind, where I almost get Loam+Wasteland locked but I can play around this so he can only waste me twice and the rest he gets back are 4 fetches. He cant use this to gis advantage without a BS and I in with Jace, Clique and Leo on.the Last turn of extra time.

SB
- 4 Fow -2 Push - 1 Strix
+2 Blast +2 Fluster + Snap + Clique + 1 Edict

Conclusions:
Snare is insane in every MU I face
Loam is not worth the SB slot
I will not play less then 2 TNN in the Future
I like the 3rd Snap in.the SB, I took this aproach from the last predict miracles lists. Its besically another Removal in fair MU amd another counter/discard vs combo/control plus a clock (very important)

[Whit3boy316]

Just played a couple games against the new thing in the ice deck, felt really good, they spend a lot of time removing deathrite since it shuts down punishing fire/snapcaster targets. Also, with the amount of removal we have to control TITI it isn't that hard
Another note, I play 3 TNN over leovold, they can't deal with it other than EE and flipping titi which we remove when they start cantripping

Also played against esper death blade, felt great. Only thing I cared about countering was tnn and Jace. Other than that I would let them use the Mana on stoneforge and kcommand things away. Again, tnn is great, can block all their things, kills their Jace, they can't deal with it like leovold

[Nocioni88]

Counter version or heavy discard version?


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[MorphBerlin]

Just played a couple games against the new thing in the ice deck, felt really good, they spend a lot of time removing deathrite since it shuts down punishing fire/snapcaster targets. Also, with the amount of removal we have to control TITI it isn't that hard
Another note, I play 3 TNN over leovold, they can't deal with it other than EE and flipping titi which we remove when they start cantripping

Also played against esper death blade, felt great. Only thing I cared about countering was tnn and Jace. Other than that I would let them use the Mana on stoneforge and kcommand things away. Again, tnn is great, can block all their things, kills their Jace, they can't deal with it like leovold

I am 0-2 (1-2 and 0-2) against the deck, 1st time was close, 2nd time one game close one game not. I agree Leo is underwhelming and TNN is king. He boards in 4 PBlast though... I actually thought about boarding out DRS to blank all their burn.

[Whit3boy316]

Counter version or heavy discard version?


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

I play 0 discard spells. As for counters I only play the 4 fow and 2 counterspell. I've been trying to make room for a snare or two but with no luck

[Whit3boy316]

I am 0-2 (1-2 and 0-2) against the deck, 1st time was close, 2nd time one game close one game not. I agree Leo is underwhelming and TNN is king. He boards in 4 PBlast though... I actually thought about boarding out DRS to blank all their burn.


I assume you are referring to the TITI control deck? I agree 4 pyroblast must be more challenging, I want to play 2 hydroblast in my board but haven't had time to change it.

[mindcrank]

What I've been tinkering with lately:

// main //
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Night's Whisper
1 Thoughtseize

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

// sideboard //
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dread of Night
1 Fire Covenant
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Diabolic Edict


// sideboard plans //
{Storm}
-2 True-Name Nemesis
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Thoughtseize

{Elves}
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-2 True-Name Nemesis
-1 Night's Whisper
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Diabolic Edict

{Delver}
-4 Force of Will
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Fire Covenant
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

{Death and Taxes}
-4 Force of Will
-2 Counterspell
+1 Dread of Night
+1 Fire Covenant
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Toxic Deluge

{Reanimator}
-2 True-Name Nemesis
-2 Abrupt Decay
-2 Fatal Push
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Diabolic Edict

{Show and Tell}
-2 True-Name Nemesis
-1 Lightning Bolt
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Diabolic Edict

{Lands}
-2 Fatal Push
-1 Lightning Bolt
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Force of Will
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Diabolic Edict

I would love any comments/criticism/suggestions please!

[MorphBerlin]

I assume you are referring to the TITI control deck? I agree 4 pyroblast must be more challenging, I want to play 2 hydroblast in my board but haven't had time to change it.

I cannot say it's THE TITI control deck, but it looks similar to the list in that threat. 3 P Fire, Bolts, Jace, Dack Fayden, Snaps, Counterspells Snares, and yes 4 P Plast in the Board. I flt pretty favored or even in the control mirros I played till now, but here I fell unfavored. G1 is rough because of all our stuff that dies to pfire, and g2 because he seems to have more control cards. Leo Is bad because it is tap out for 3 and draw a card of of their bolt... You need alot of recousrces to protect DRS and I'm not sure it's worth it. Also there are 2 BMoons coming in, which wreck us without DRS... Not sure how to Adress this right now.

Any thought of cutting down on the green to only 1 Trop (Grixis Delver Style for DRS Activation agaisnt Reanimator and the like)? Abrupt decay could replaced with K.Kommand and EE, Leo with TNN,Snap, Clique. We could play 2 Islands then to make us bretty save from BMoon, which seems to have ticked up alot.

I think the combination of Discard and counters is best, because it's much tougher for combo to fight different angles at the same time.

@Mindcrank: Your list is fine but would be too clunky for my, too many 3cc cards, too many creatures, nt enough 1cc removal. Also Not sure about the sb and the plans

[ironclad8690]

Finished another league today, 4-1.

This puts my record at:

3 2
4 1
5 0
4 1
4 1
2 3
4 1

For a total of 26-9 in matches, which is about 74% win rate. I have been playing the same list that I 5-0'd with, here. (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/645020#online)

If anyone wants to see my win/loss data spreadsheet, here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ligF2XLtYTNIzw_XATaQ6inL_sW3xkM-HB1rNUs255I/edit?usp=sharing) is a link.

I am thinking this is a fine contestant for GP Vegas.

[itrytostorm]

Finished another league today, 4-1.

This puts my record at:

3 2
4 1
5 0
4 1
4 1
2 3
4 1

For a total of 26-9 in matches, which is about 74% win rate. I have been playing the same list that I 5-0'd with, here. (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/645020#online)

If anyone wants to see my win/loss data spreadsheet, here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ligF2XLtYTNIzw_XATaQ6inL_sW3xkM-HB1rNUs255I/edit?usp=sharing) is a link.

I am thinking this is a fine contestant for GP Vegas.

Not a fan of TNN?

[Whit3boy316]

I cannot say it's THE TITI control deck, but it looks similar to the list in that threat. 3 P Fire, Bolts, Jace, Dack Fayden, Snaps, Counterspells Snares, and yes 4 P Plast in the Board. I flt pretty favored or even in the control mirros I played till now, but here I fell unfavored. G1 is rough because of all our stuff that dies to pfire, and g2 because he seems to have more control cards. Leo Is bad because it is tap out for 3 and draw a card of of their bolt... You need alot of recousrces to protect DRS and I'm not sure it's worth it. Also there are 2 BMoons coming in, which wreck us without DRS... Not sure how to Adress this right now.

Any thought of cutting down on the green to only 1 Trop (Grixis Delver Style for DRS Activation agaisnt Reanimator and the like)? Abrupt decay could replaced with K.Kommand and EE, Leo with TNN,Snap, Clique. We could play 2 Islands then to make us bretty save from BMoon, which seems to have ticked up alot.

I think the combination of Discard and counters is best, because it's much tougher for combo to fight different angles at the same time.

@Mindcrank: Your list is fine but would be too clunky for my, too many 3cc cards, too many creatures, nt enough 1cc removal. Also Not sure about the sb and the plans

This is why I no longer play leovold

[MorphBerlin]

This is why I no longer play leovold

I think he's still worth playing! Not sure 2 is correct though.

[ironclad8690]

Not a fan of TNN?

I haven't tried him in here, but he seems a little too durdle/fair. Doesn't impact the board in a meaningful enough way compared to the others. I could see it in a more Eldrazi/D&T meta.

[MorphBerlin]

I haven't tried him in here, but he seems a little too durdle/fair. Doesn't impact the board in a meaningful enough way compared to the others. I could see it in a more Eldrazi/D&T meta.

I have to disagree here, it's the perfect way to ride our CA to victory. You don't have to worry about most of the standard removal and just counter/handle all the relevant stuff for 4-6 turns which should be easy with the resource advantage.

[mindcrank]

Leovold has been really good for me in unfair matchups like Reanimator, Storm variants and even Show and Tell. Messing with Combo's card draw engine hurts them quite a bit.

[MorphBerlin]

Leovold has been really good for me in unfair matchups like Reanimator, Storm variants and even Show and Tell. Messing with Combo's card draw engine hurts them quite a bit.

True, there is alot of ANT in my Meta, and he is the perfect follow-up for discard, that's why I wouldn't cut him.

[Whit3boy316]

If I had combo in my meta I'd play him. But I go to like 1 legacy event a year, other than that I play with friends/ what people have at the stores...it's usually don't, infect, stone blade, this where tnn really shines

[mindcrank]

If I had combo in my meta I'd play him. But I go to like 1 legacy event a year, other than that I play with friends/ what people have at the stores...it's usually don't, infect, stone blade, this where tnn really shines

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/759/both.png

[Whit3boy316]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/759/both.png

Cuz I hate casting a 3 mana creature just to get their bolt/push/abrupt/swords out of their hand and draw a card

[Whit3boy316]

Played against elves a couple times, got wrecked. I won q game out of about 4. What do we sideboard in for this? I know marah casualties and I've seen people use EE but I feel EE is so limiting in other things.

I will say that one of the games I wished my tnn was a leovold due to glimpse. But I won't be changing back to leos

[mindcrank]

I went 3-1 on Friday at one shop and 3-1 on Sunday at another with my previously posted list. Played the following

MUD 2-0
Dark Maverick 2-0
Elves 1-2
ANT 2-0
UW Control 2-0
UWr Stoneblade 2-0
Elves 0-2
UWr Stoneblade 2-0

Deck is stronk, the 2-2 split of Leovold/TNN, the 2 Counterspell + 1 Thoughtseize was all dope af. Fire Covenant is hella good and I will continue to use it. Curve is easy and mana feels fine. Elves is really really really hard to play against, they can recover fine from wrath effects and can combo with very few cards. The only way to have a higher % match-up vs them from my testing would be to dedicate 2 Engineered Plagues in the board but those are virtually useless against the rest of the meta so I still don't think it's worth it.

[supachai]

I went 3-1 on Friday at one shop and 3-1 on Sunday at another with my previously posted list. Played the following

MUD 2-0
Dark Maverick 2-0
Elves 1-2
ANT 2-0
UW Control 2-0
UWr Stoneblade 2-0
Elves 0-2
UWr Stoneblade 2-0

Deck is stronk, the 2-2 split of Leovold/TNN, the 2 Counterspell + 1 Thoughtseize was all dope af. Firecovenant is hella good and I will continue to use it. Curve is easy and mana feels fine. Elves is really really really hard to play against, they can recover fine from wrath effects and can combo with very few cards. The only way to have a higher % match-up vs them from my testing would be to dedicate 2 Engineered Plagues in the board but those are virtually useless against the rest of the meta so I still don't think it's worth it.

Nice finishes! What are you bringing in against Elves/have in the main?

[mindcrank]

Nice finishes! What are you bringing in against Elves/have in the main?

Main I have:
2 koligan's command
2 fatal push
1 lightning bolt
2 abrupt decay

in the board I have:
1 engineered explosives
1 marsh casualties
1 toxic deluge
1 fire covenant
1 grim lavamancer

cutting:
2 counterspell
2 jace's
1 liliana

I think we need the forces, keeping in the dude's helps against them going fair midrange. Easily the hardest match-up to figure out for me so far.

[Whit3boy316]

I went 3-1 on Friday at one shop and 3-1 on Sunday at another with my previously posted list. Played the following

MUD 2-0
Dark Maverick 2-0
Elves 1-2
ANT 2-0
UW Control 2-0
UWr Stoneblade 2-0
Elves 0-2
UWr Stoneblade 2-0

Deck is stronk, the 2-2 split of Leovold/TNN, the 2 Counterspell + 1 Thoughtseize was all dope af. Fire Covenant is hella good and I will continue to use it. Curve is easy and mana feels fine. Elves is really really really hard to play against, they can recover fine from wrath effects and can combo with very few cards. The only way to have a higher % match-up vs them from my testing would be to dedicate 2 Engineered Plagues in the board but those are virtually useless against the rest of the meta so I still don't think it's worth it.

Nice job. I also noticed that elves is really rough. So rough that would almost rather not have dedicated slots for it, but rather cards for other decks than may help, fire covenant for example.

I'm still trying to work my leovolds back in the deck. Tnn has been to good for me

[mindcrank]

Nice job. I also noticed that elves is really rough. So rough that would almost rather not have dedicated slots for it, but rather cards for other decks than may help, fire covenant for example.

I'm still trying to work my leovolds back in the deck. Tnn has been to good for me

I think we're on the same page there - the other creature based decks like Death & Taxes/Goblins(lol who plays this?)/Maverick etc are no problem for us.

[supachai]

Main I have:
2 koligan's command
2 fatal push
1 lightning bolt
2 abrupt decay

in the board I have:
1 engineered explosives
1 marsh casualties
1 toxic deluge
1 fire covenant
1 grim lavamancer

cutting:
2 counterspell
2 jace's
1 liliana

I think we need the forces, keeping in the dude's helps against them going fair midrange. Easily the hardest match-up to figure out for me so far.

Thanks for the input. That sounds pretty similar to me, though I have one Deluge main as well and I haven't tried Fire Covenant. The 3 mana seems a little clunky, is it really better than Marsh Casualties or even Forked Bolt?

This analysis is interesting: http://itsjulian.com/too-much-information-mkm-series-frankfurt/

Looks like Czech Pile is pretty well situated in the meta right now, but the numbers agree with us that Elves is a bad matchup.

[MorphBerlin]

Main I have:
2 koligan's command
2 fatal push
1 lightning bolt
2 abrupt decay

in the board I have:
1 engineered explosives
1 marsh casualties
1 toxic deluge
1 fire covenant
1 grim lavamancer

cutting:
2 counterspell
2 jace's
1 liliana

I think we need the forces, keeping in the dude's helps against them going fair midrange. Easily the hardest match-up to figure out for me so far.

I'm not sure I agree with this boarding plan, I think counterspell is actually decent to stop their key spells (Glimpse/GSZ,NO,Symbiot) without the CA disadvantage of Force. On the play I would definitely go at least 2/2 or cut a Thoughtseize. Strix doesn't seem to amazing either. Your list might have changed from the posted one didn't it? Or why would you not bring in Jitte?




2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

1 Night's Whisper
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Spell Pierce

1 Engineered Explosives

2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

SB:
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress
3 Flusterstorm
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge


9th place of the recent Legacy challange, I mentioned this concept of going Grixis before, seems very focused in on K.Command+Snap,

[sikariok9]

I have been playing 1 unearth maindeck and it is awesome.
You can unearth a snapcaster and use this same unearth to bring back other creature

[MorphBerlin]

I have been playing 1 unearth maindeck and it is awesome.
You can unearth a snapcaster and use this same unearth to bring back other creature

Yeah I will try it today too I think, Unearth plus Leo/TNN seems pretty sick too.

[ashent]

I took my Unearth out because it's so dead in the first game against combo it feels really bad.

I just won a few games vs Elves with 2 Lightning Bolts and a 3rd Fatal Push in the side, so my configuration looked like:

Main removal:
1 Kcommand
2 Push
2 Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

Side removal:
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Push
+2 Bolt
+2 Jitte

[mindcrank]

I'm not sure I agree with this boarding plan, I think counterspell is actually decent to stop their key spells (Glimpse/GSZ,NO,Symbiot) without the CA disadvantage of Force. On the play I would definitely go at least 2/2 or cut a Thoughtseize. Strix doesn't seem to amazing either. Your list might have changed from the posted one didn't it? Or why would you not bring in Jitte?



9th place of the recent Legacy challange, I mentioned this concept of going Grixis before, seems very focused in on K.Command+Snap,

oh you're right I also bring in jitta - strix has been surprisingly good vs elves, it allows you to connect uncontested with jitta and it also punishes them if they try to go a fair-midrange game plan with nettle sentinels

[sikariok9]

I took my Unearth out because it's so dead in the first game against combo it feels really bad.


Your toxic is nuts instead...

[ashent]

Your toxic is nuts instead...

Right, so on top of the other dead removal spells we're putting in even more grindy spells that kill us against Storm like Unearth? Just saying that in practice the card has felt terrible more than it has felt good. I put Unearth in the deck a month ago and tested a lot.

[sikariok9]

Well I play engineered explosives maindeck, which can be much more useful than toxic vs combo. I think we can afford to run unearth since we have a nadie 1st game vs combo anyways

[MorphBerlin]

Well I play engineered explosives maindeck, which can be much more useful than toxic vs combo. I think we can afford to run unearth since we have a nadie 1st game vs combo anyways

I don't like the MD Toxic either, our creatures are too small to make the effect one sided enough reliably. When I played Shardless you could almost allways make sure, that at least your Goyfs survive.

I don't know if y'all read the whole text of Unearth, but "Cycling 2" says this is not dead against combo. Yes it's a bad slow cantrip but better then a removal spell for sure. Hold up CSpell EoT Cycle is not too bad tbh

Torunament yesterday, 3-1 again

Burn 1-2 Manascrewd bad draw...
D&T 2-1 grindy but good post SB
ANT 2-0 Godhand G2: Trop, DRS, Thoughtseize, FOW, Fluster, BS, Snare
UR-Delver 2-1 close because of all their reach and PoP, TNN is so necessary

[Dice_Box]

If someone wishes to write a primer, you can be moved to Established.

[MorphBerlin]

If someone wishes to write a primer, you can be moved to Established.

Somebody in contact with Tomas Mar? It would feel bad if it came from any other person than him :laugh:

[mindcrank]

Somebody in contact with Tomas Mar? It would feel bad if it came from any other person than him :laugh:

+1

[Whit3boy316]

if someone wishes to write a primer, you can be moved to established.

we did it boi's

[ironclad8690]

I'd be down to write a primer, but I don't think I have enough reps.

Played two leagues today btw, first 3-2

Bug Delver: 2-1
Grixis Delver: 0-2
Sneak and Show: 2-0
Grixis Delver: 1-2
Nic Fit:2-0

Then I tried white instead of red for swords to plowshares lingering souls and zealous persecution, which seemed fine in theory, but then:

UB Landstill: 0-2
Stasis: 2-0
RUG Delver: 1-2
Bant Deathblade: 1-2 (but he wad dead for prizes so he scooped me in)
UR Thing in the Ice/As Foretold/Ancestral Vision: 0-2

In short: was a terrible idea. Pyroblast is amazing. Need to figure out how to play differently vs grixis or slightly hedge for the deck.

[ironclad8690]

3-2 in my league today. Beat Storm, Some guy who just mulled to 4 both games and scooped, and Deathblade. Lost to Grixis Control (YP Therapy Probe but other than that basically a mirror), and RUG Delver.

I am going to try cutting the 4th snap for the 3rd fatal push and see how that goes.

[mindcrank]

4-0 last night
played against:

UWr Control 2-0
Burn 2-1
UWr Control 2-0
Dark Maverick 2-1

Could have went 2-0 against Burn but I didn't realize the interaction of having Leovold + Vendilion Clique... >_>

[MorphBerlin]

3-2 in my league today. Beat Storm, Some guy who just mulled to 4 both games and scooped, and Deathblade. Lost to Grixis Control (YP Therapy Probe but other than that basically a mirror), and RUG Delver.

I am going to try cutting the 4th snap for the 3rd fatal push and see how that goes.

4 Snaps? That seems teribly clunky to me, what's your current decklist?

[mindcrank]

4 Snaps? That seems teribly clunky to me, what's your current decklist?

I agree, I think 3 Snaps is the way to go

[ironclad8690]

4 Snaps? That seems teribly clunky to me, what's your current decklist?


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Night's Whisper
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lightning Bolt

[mindcrank]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Night's Whisper
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lightning Bolt


Cut a Strix +1 TNN <3

[ironclad8690]

I'd like to but TNN is so brutally expensive online :(

3-2 in a league today

Sneak and Show: 1-2
Grixis Delver: 0-2
Grixis Delver: 2-0
Miracles: 2-1
Miracles: 2-1

And then started off another:

Esper Blade: 2-1
BR Reanimator: 2-1

5-2 on the day isn't bad. Grixis continues to be a toss up. I am 5-6 in matches vs it.

[mindcrank]

I'd like to but TNN is so brutally expensive online :(

3-2 in a league today

Sneak and Show: 1-2
Grixis Delver: 0-2
Grixis Delver: 2-0
Miracles: 2-1
Miracles: 2-1

And then started off another:

Esper Blade: 2-1
BR Reanimator: 2-1

5-2 on the day isn't bad. Grixis continues to be a toss up. I am 5-6 in matches vs it.

I think that's actually quite a good record. *cough* TNN is great vs delver *cough*

What are you taking out vs SnT?

[Poron]

Grixis has no real answer to Angler

[bigbobbobber]

Grixis has no real answer to Angler

Except for Baleful Strix, which you can have more than 4 virtual copies of via K-Command. I'm actually thinking tonight at my LGS I will be dropping the 2 Abrupt Decays in favor of more draw/removal. With Counterbalance gone, there are less targets for Abrupt Decay now. What are people's thoughts on this? If I drop AD, then only Leovold costs green mana, which makes me want to only have one Tropical Island in the maindeck.

[sikariok9]

Decay is a premium removal, is hard for me to cut them from maindeck even with CB gone.
Im currently running 8 removals + engineered explosives.
Also, if you are playing 2 leovolds and 4 deathrite shaman, you need 2 green mana sources

[ironclad8690]

I bring in

1 Vendilion Clique
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fluster
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast

For

3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Baleful Strix
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Night's Whisper

When it comes to sneak and show

[MorphBerlin]

1-3 yesterday luck was not really on my side that day.

1-2 Tezzerator (drawing 1 of 3 pyroblast in any postboard gsme would have helped...)
0-2 Storm (feels great to draw Strix, Jace, TNN all the time)
1-2 D&T
2-0 Storm

[MorphBerlin]

Except for Baleful Strix, which you can have more than 4 virtual copies of via K-Command. I'm actually thinking tonight at my LGS I will be dropping the 2 Abrupt Decays in favor of more draw/removal. With Counterbalance gone, there are less targets for Abrupt Decay now. What are people's thoughts on this? If I drop AD, then only Leovold costs green mana, which makes me want to only have one Tropical Island in the maindeck.

// 60 Maindeck
// 1 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives

// 13 Creature
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

// 16 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Fatal Push
2 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Snare

// 20 Land
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Verdant Catacombs

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 8 Sorcery
4 Ponder
1 Painful Truths
2 Thoughtseize
1 Unearth


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

// 2 Creature
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage

// 9 Instant
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Pyroblast

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Forked Bolt


My suggestion for a Grixis+G list when cutting decay. 2 K-Command could be right as well.

What I want to have decay most for is BMoon and Chalice, chalice is fine but blood moon is a bit tricky, allthough we can afford 2 Islands now.

[m0ller]

Hi all!

I decided to play Czech Pile for 2 4rounds sideevents to Copenhagen GP with the below mentioned list. My overall score was 5-0-2, the two draws were ID. I did play them out and won on of them against Grixis Delver, and lost the other one to Death and taxes.

My list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Night's Whisper
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 spell snare
2 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
2 lightning bolt
1 murderous Cit
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 flooded strand
2 wasteland

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Flusterstorm
1 invasive surgury
1 spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 fatal Push
1 pithing needle

[bigbobbobber]

Opted to keep the Abrupt Decays in, and it was the right decision. They were crucial in some matches, especially in making sure Delver dies. The list above for Grixis plus green is a good one IMO, but I really like the way this deck is working so far. After last night, loving this list and only need to continue working on the sideboard. I doubt I will change the main deck until WOTC prints an instant speed draw 2 for UU.

[Minniehajj]

Opted to keep the Abrupt Decays in, and it was the right decision. They were crucial in some matches, especially in making sure Delver dies. The list above for Grixis plus green is a good one IMO, but I really like the way this deck is working so far. After last night, loving this list and only need to continue working on the sideboard. I doubt I will change the main deck until WOTC prints an instant speed draw 2 for UU.

You mean....Predict? :)

[bigbobbobber]

You mean....Predict? :)

Ha yes, I have often envied Miracles players for being able to use Predict. I've hated them for it, and used to max out on Spell Snare just to counter it (and Counterbalance of course). If ayone has any ideas on how to run Predict in the Czech Pile, I am all ears. More card draw is always the thing I am looking for when playing this deck.

[Tomas Mar]

Cut a Strix +1 TNN <3

nemesis is not really good , the card feels powerfull but there is no purpous in it other than survive punishing mu

[Tomas Mar]

nemesis is not really good , the card feels powerfull but there is no purpous in it other than survive punishing mu

Btw I am new here the previous comment was my 1st one . But I have read all the comments and list and to bo honest I pretty much disagree with most of them . Discard version is better for sure ( maybe spell snare can be good - but idont really like that card ) . The thing is that every turn before side you want to be tapped out mainly vs faster mus ( that is why you are losing vs grixis or ur ) - those mus are a bit harder but you should be still favourite and when you know how the mu works it is quite easy to win it . Why dont you try this list https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/learning-4c-czech-pile-from-the-master/ it is not my latest version but it is really good one ( side plan was written in rush so it is not really correct - ( half is and the other half is not :D ). Just remember that in fast mus you want to side out the slow cards and the painful ones , wasteland is nessesary but it is really bad vs most of the mus so mainly on draw you want to get rid of it , force is way better than it seems , liliana post bord is not that great and strix sometimes doesnt do enything .

[fadgames]

Btw I am new here the previous comment was my 1st one . But I have read all the comments and list and to bo honest I pretty much disagree with most of them . Discard version is better for sure ( maybe spell snare can be good - but idont really like that card ) . The thing is that every turn before side you want to be tapped out mainly vs faster mus ( that is why you are losing vs grixis or ur ) - those mus are a bit harder but you should be still favourite and when you know how the mu works it is quite easy to win it . Why dont you try this list https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/learning-4c-czech-pile-from-the-master/ it is not my latest version but it is really good one ( side plan was written in rush so it is not really correct - ( half is and the other half is not :D ). Just remember that in fast mus you want to side out the slow cards and the painful ones , wasteland is nessesary but it is really bad vs most of the mus so mainly on draw you want to get rid of it , force is way better than it seems , liliana post bord is not that great and strix sometimes doesnt do enything .

Thanks for the reply! Would you be willing to supply your latest list + a primer? Seems like we're finally ready to move into established, plus I'm super curious why you prefer Wasteland over the two/three basics.

[Whit3boy316]

Thanks for the reply! Would you be willing to supply your latest list + a primer? Seems like we're finally ready to move into established, plus I'm super curious why you prefer Wasteland over the two/three basics.

I also prefer wasteland. But I play against dnt and infect often

[Tomas Mar]

Thanks for the reply! Would you be willing to supply your latest list + a primer? Seems like we're finally ready to move into established, plus I'm super curious why you prefer Wasteland over the two/three basics.

the list is pretty much the same i am trying various versions of removals and countrips so i dont have solid 75 yet and this was my last version - main is like 57-59 cards same ( i dont run 3 decay anymore for sure ) and side is like 12 cards same depends on meta and i dont play mtgo at this time
wateland is better because you need to get rid of cards like karakas ,inkmot ,mutavalut , boseiju , tar pit ,cefalid colloseum , dark depts and other land stuf and mainly grove of the burnwelous !!!! and when oyu are on play the cards is just so powerfull when you use it correctly - you can bassicly chose to return 1turn back and kill the color oyu dont like and it doesnt cost you anything , sure basic are better vs moon , back to basic and other stuff like vterean explorer or price of progres - but you ussualy want to deal with those cards anyway but oyu cant force or discard land cards

[fadgames]

the list is pretty much the same i am trying various versions of removals and countrips so i dont have solid 75 yet and this was my last version - main is like 57-59 cards same ( i dont run 3 decay anymore for sure ) and side is like 12 cards same depends on meta and i dont play mtgo at this time
wateland is better because you need to get rid of cards like karakas ,inkmot ,mutavalut , boseiju , tar pit ,cefalid colloseum , dark depts and other land stuf and mainly grove of the burnwelous !!!! and when oyu are on play the cards is just so powerfull when you use it correctly - you can bassicly chose to return 1turn back and kill the color oyu dont like and it doesnt cost you anything , sure basic are better vs moon , back to basic and other stuff like vterean explorer or price of progres - but you ussualy want to deal with those cards anyway but oyu cant force or discard land cards

Yea that makes a lot of sense. I just wonder what, then, makes this deck choice superior to, say, Grixis Delver? Or if you're going on a more discard-heavy package, why not Sultai?

I guess my main question is what's the draw to this deck nowadays? I played it pre-top ban, and it was so strong versus Miracles and the rest of the metagame; won my byes to GP Vegas with it. Now, though, I feel like the fair matchups are all beating up on me (Elves has proven troublesome especially). And with 4c Stoneblade posting good numbers both online and in live tournaments, it seems hard to be on this deck at the moment.

[ashent]

Finished another league with Czech Pile and started 3-0, ending with a disappointing 3-2.

I am not firmly sold that this deck is no longer relevant and will keep working on it. If I do another league and end 4-1 or better I will upload it to my channel, which does a lot of Legacy only content.

[MorphBerlin]

The main difference I see in the lists is Counterspell vs Hymn and neither is great versus Grixis Delver so I don't see how that would be a problem (Lili is also not at her best here). 3 AD seems no longer necessary, moving to bolt/push is a lot easier on the Mana and makes us faster.

[LarsLeif]

I think that since the top banning the deck has splintered into different directions. My list has now morphed into a UB splash Kolaghan's Command list, which is very controlling and have discarded the midrange elements almost completely. But I believe the more traditional list to be strong still as well, but it has other weaknesses. But there is a larger differnaces than just CS or Hymn.

[MorphBerlin]

I think that since the top banning the deck has splintered into different directions. My list has now morphed into a UB splash Kolaghan's Command list, which is very controlling and have discarded the midrange elements almost completely. But I believe the more traditional list to be strong still as well, but it has other weaknesses. But there is a larger differnaces than just CS or Hymn.

I must say I like the reduction of green as well. AD is not really needed imo. Yeah you might get some more free losses against chalice/moon but agaisnt the vast majority of the decks it doesn't really make a difference. Leo is kind of free as we need 1 Trop for DRS anyway, so we have 4 DRS and 1 Trop or in case we can't generate Green we just pitch him.

[LarsLeif]

My version plays several basics and is essentially UB, so it doesn't lose to moon (I play one myself right now) and it also plays 3 Kolaghan's Command so it doesn't really lose to chalice either. The only cards that you worry about is Food Chain and Choke.

[Tomas Mar]

Yea that makes a lot of sense. I just wonder what, then, makes this deck choice superior to, say, Grixis Delver? Or if you're going on a more discard-heavy package, why not Sultai?

I guess my main question is what's the draw to this deck nowadays? I played it pre-top ban, and it was so strong versus Miracles and the rest of the metagame; won my byes to GP Vegas with it. Now, though, I feel like the fair matchups are all beating up on me (Elves has proven troublesome especially). And with 4c Stoneblade posting good numbers both online and in live tournaments, it seems hard to be on this deck at the moment.

To be honest this deck is designed for really good players - it has pretty good mu vs almost all of the played decks . The thing is how this deck is designed ( answer over thread ), that is why it is so difficult to play . It doesnt have any free wins ( like delver into pyro into waste with daze on play ) , but it can answer any card in the format . So if 2 decks are designed for wining and have planty of free win cards the mu is more about luck than skill . But this deck is designed for (not loosing) and every clunky card that is not nessesary has been cut in the past or will be cut soon :D .like 3rd waste atc . But the deck wont be better if you cut specific answer like liliana and add nemesis because you will lose raise anyway so the only 2 ways to go are to commit to control version without straight threads like tnn or go the easier way for threads - but oyu will always lose to some mus and sometimes even mirror even if you are much better player than your oponent .
BTW I love nemessis and it can be really good in some versions even control ones it is strong card and it has many reasons to be in your deck . But the reasons must be smart not that you dont have any finisher or that it cant be killed by normal removals . ( when i play discard in 1st round and my oponent has 2 or more removals I know that I wount probably lose the game )

[bum_man]

Played the below list (minus 1 badlands in the posted list) to a top 4 finish last month and played slightly modified list to a disappointing finish this month. Changes were MD - 2 hymn and 2 inquisition for +1 bolt +1 Counterspell and 2 Thoughtseize sb - 1 clique, cspell forked bolt for +1 deluge, 2 pyroblast .

Just have a general playstyle question for other pilots, do you often find yourself doing mulligans to find relevant interaction vs specific matchups or do you think it's fine to keep lands and cantrips to just sculpt out a good hand that lines up against opponents as the game goes on? I was asking because the past 2 tournaments I found myself mulling to oblivion trying to find meaningful interaction against opponents. For some reason I keep getting hands that has a lot of lands and in some matchups I won on mull to 4s but in some matchups the card disadvantage was too to overcome.

I'm asking because I wanted to find out if it's a playstyle thing or that's just how this deck plays out given how its constructed. It's worth noting that I play in a very combo heavy meta with very minimal representation from blue midrange or control.

[Tomas Mar]

Played the below list (minus 1 badlands in the posted list) to a top 4 finish last month and played slightly modified list to a disappointing finish this month. Changes were MD - 2 hymn and 2 inquisition for +1 bolt +1 Counterspell and 2 Thoughtseize sb - 1 clique, cspell forked bolt for +1 deluge, 2 pyroblast .

Just have a general playstyle question for other pilots, do you often find yourself doing mulligans to find relevant interaction vs specific matchups or do you think it's fine to keep lands and cantrips to just sculpt out a good hand that lines up against opponents as the game goes on? I was asking because the past 2 tournaments I found myself mulling to oblivion trying to find meaningful interaction against opponents. For some reason I keep getting hands that has a lot of lands and in some matchups I won on mull to 4s but in some matchups the card disadvantage was too to overcome.

I'm asking because I wanted to find out if it's a playstyle thing or that's just how this deck plays out given how its constructed. It's worth noting that I play in a very combo heavy meta with very minimal representation from blue midrange or control.

I dont moligan much and almost never for specific cards only if that hand is way below average generaly or vs that mu ( there are few specific mus where you cant keep some dead cards or you need to play something important at worst before his 2nd turn or have force like moon mu or have force vs all spells

[MorphBerlin]

Played the below list (minus 1 badlands in the posted list) to a top 4 finish last month and played slightly modified list to a disappointing finish this month. Changes were MD - 2 hymn and 2 inquisition for +1 bolt +1 Counterspell and 2 Thoughtseize sb - 1 clique, cspell forked bolt for +1 deluge, 2 pyroblast .

Just have a general playstyle question for other pilots, do you often find yourself doing mulligans to find relevant interaction vs specific matchups or do you think it's fine to keep lands and cantrips to just sculpt out a good hand that lines up against opponents as the game goes on? I was asking because the past 2 tournaments I found myself mulling to oblivion trying to find meaningful interaction against opponents. For some reason I keep getting hands that has a lot of lands and in some matchups I won on mull to 4s but in some matchups the card disadvantage was too to overcome.

I'm asking because I wanted to find out if it's a playstyle thing or that's just how this deck plays out given how its constructed. It's worth noting that I play in a very combo heavy meta with very minimal representation from blue midrange or control.

I mulligan very little with this deck, only because of low lands (allthoug I would keep 1 land plus cantrip if the rest is decent) or too many expensive spells.

[bum_man]

Okay. Thanks for your inputs! It may be just a case where I was up against fast combo like Belcher, ant, and br reanimator and my list wasn't tuned to be lined up properly with a combo meta. Missed my hymns that tournament, had a hard time getting any meaningful cards against these decks on 7 and 6 card hand (plus the usual no land hands). Will retweak my list and try to get in more games.

[fadgames]

So this is the most recent 5-0 decklist online: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/662881#paper

I've actually found that the online meta pretty closely resembles the paper one currently, except where D&T is involved. There was a 43-man tournament at my store yesterday and the %s were nearly identical (Grixis/Sultai Delver leading the pack, with ANT/Sneak & Show very closely behind). That said, this particular list seems very streamlined. It moved to cutting Night's Whisper, and instead focuses on a more traditional grind ala Delver, but has better cards in the mid and late game. Any thoughts on this direction?

[talpa]

Sorry,
Is there a thread for a "more grixis" control, or is this the right place for decklist like this one (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23359&iddeck=181137)?

Also, has anyone considered the madness of cutting the shamans for completely blanking the opponent removals, like this (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23166&iddeck=179498)?

(I mean it seems a crazy idea, we all know how strong shaman is, but could be worth the sacrifice since it implies you have rooms for more control elements and more robust threats)

[mindcrank]

Sorry,
Is there a thread for a "more grixis" control, or is this the right place for decklist like this one (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23359&iddeck=181137)?

Also, has anyone considered the madness of cutting the shamans for completely blanking the opponent removals, like this (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23166&iddeck=179498)?

(I mean it seems a crazy idea, we all know how strong shaman is, but could be worth the sacrifice since it implies you have rooms for more control elements and more robust threats)

I find Shaman to be the best creature in this deck. It's great vs a number of combo decks, allows you to power out Leovold or TNN on Turn 2, helps vs burn, fixes our 4 color mana base. I can't imagine cutting it man...

[talpa]

I find Shaman to be the best creature in this deck. It's great vs a number of combo decks, allows you to power out Leovold or TNN on Turn 2, helps vs burn, fixes our 4 color mana base. I can't imagine cutting it man...

We all know how strong shaman is.
But this is not Reid Duke blade who whants to always put a 3-drop in play on the second turn. Actually, the Grixis I was speaking, even the more common ones with shamans, DO NOT PLAY leovold NOR nemesis. So what's your 3-drop? snapcaster mage, kolaghan.

As Tomas Mar said, you are happy when you see your opponent has two removals in hand because it means he has two useless cards, which is the same as you had two more cards in hand than him.
This is not so true if you play shaman, suddenly one of his cards is no more dead, and one of yours (shaman) is.
that's what I was trying to say.

Of course there are tradeoffs if you cut shamans... you risk more mana screw (and color screw) and you have less reach. But maybe it could be worth it.

[MorphBerlin]

We all know how strong shaman is.
But this is not Reid Duke blade who whants to always put a 3-drop in play on the second turn. Actually, the Grixis I was speaking, even the more common ones with shamans, DO NOT PLAY leovold NOR nemesis. So what's your 3-drop? snapcaster mage, kolaghan.

As Tomas Mar said, you are happy when you see your opponent has two removals in hand because it means he has two useless cards, which is the same as you had two more cards in hand than him.
This is not so true if you play shaman, suddenly one of his cards is no more dead, and one of yours (shaman) is.
that's what I was trying to say.

Of course there are tradeoffs if you cut shamans... you risk more mana screw (and color screw) and you have less reach. But maybe it could be worth it.

I think in a control mirror you might be right, though my assumption is that shaman gives the highest win% against the whole field.

I have a guy playing URg thing in the ice with pfire. I will try siding out shamans actually there cause they jsut die

[mindcrank]

I think in a control mirror you might be right, though my assumption is that shaman gives the highest win% against the whole field.

I have a guy playing URg thing in the ice with pfire. I will try siding out shamans actually there cause they jsut die

You know what's great against Punishing Fire? ~~ Leovold ~~

[bigbobbobber]

Since February I've been playing the version with 2 Counterspell and 2 Spell Snare, no maindeck discard. Last night I decided to replace 2 Spell Snare with 2 Hymn to Tourach, and it was the best decision I've made. It single handily won me games that Spell Snare would not have. Ran over everyone, going 8-1 in games. The only time I missed Snare was against UR Delver since it's so good at countering Stormchaser Mage and Price of Progress, while Hymn is generally weaker against a deck as quick as theirs. I doubt anyone could convince me to run more discard in my list, but for now I'll be sticking to 2 Hymns no Snares.

[mindcrank]

Since February I've been playing the version with 2 Counterspell and 2 Spell Snare, no maindeck discard. Last night I decided to replace 2 Spell Snare with 2 Hymn to Tourach, and it was the best decision I've made. It single handily won me games that Spell Snare would not have. Ran over everyone, going 8-1 in games. The only time I missed Snare was against UR Delver since it's so good at countering Stormchaser Mage and Price of Progress, while Hymn is generally weaker against a deck as quick as theirs. I doubt anyone could convince me to run more discard in my list, but for now I'll be sticking to 2 Hymns no Snares.

Do you run 4 Underground Sea's in that build?

[Whitefaces]

I'm of the opinion that the build with Hymns etc are much better too. Curving it into Leo and Jace, or Snapping it back is incredibly powerful.

[bigbobbobber]

Do you run 4 Underground Sea's in that build?

Yes. My manabase is a little weird due to the usually high presence of DnT splashing Red for Magus of the Moon. 8 Fetches, 4 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 2 Tropical Island, 1 Badlands, 2 Island, 2 Swamp. I used to use Wasteland, but found it was hard on the colors playing against DnT and Moon effects all of the time, so I moved to more basics.

I toyed with the idea of dropping one Tropical Island and the 2 Abrupt Decay, but I was convinced to keep them and so far they are pulling their weight. Maybe if my local meta changes enough I will drop some basics for Wasteland again.

[supachai]

Went 3-0-1 at my weekly Legacy. Small report but the details are fuzzy.

Round 1
Seth with Sneak and Show: On the play
G1: I Thoughtseize away a Show and Tell. Play a bunch of Fetches, trade some counter magic and get down to 12 life. He eventually resolves a Sneak Attack and Emrakul’s me.
G2: I’m unable to find a creature until I have like 8 lands in play but I have all the counter magic for him. I Surgical his Griselbrands. I eventually get a Deathrite Shaman and it goes all the way. I saw a blood moon and defense grid so I brought back in some Abrupt Decays
G3: Both mull to 6. He opens with Leyline of Sanctity. Blanks my Thoughtseize and Clique in hand. I get a DRS. Able to hold off his initial attempt since he has no counter magic. I play some dudes and durdle for a bit. I think a counter a Blood Moon but he resolves Defense Grid. No problem as I have a bazillion mana. I think I Surgical’d Griselbrand again so he has to draw Emrakul. He doesn’t and my dorks get there.

In: 2 Surgical, 2 Fluster, 2 REB, 2 Edict, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Clique
Out: 2 Push, 1 Deluge, 2 Strix, 1 Night’s Whisper, 1 Jace, 1 Leo, 2 Kcommand, 1 Bolt

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2
Wes with Grixis Delver: On the play
G1 He mulls to 6.
Thoughtseize his Delver and see 3 Bolts. I play something like 3 Strixes so I completely out-card advantage him. He tries a delver but it gets Decays and my small flock of birds kill him.
G2. He mulls to 6 again
He gets out 2 DRS, 2 young pyros and a delver. I have Leo and Clique to block but he’s chipping away. I eventually find 2 mana and get rid of the 2 Young Pyros and 1 DRS. He finds a True name Nemesis and I’m unable to stop it.
G3. Get out 2 Deathrites early and a couple Strixes. He gets a Gurmag and a True name but by that time he’s really low from Probing and my DRS activations and I just burn him out.

In: 1 Deluge, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Abrupt Decay, 2 REB
Out: 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Force, 1 Jace

2-0 (4-2)

Round 3
Dan with Reanimator: On the play (today is my lucky day!)
G1: I mull to 6 but get a T1 Thoughtseize. Glad I played that over DRS. He cantrips for a few turns while I land 3! DRS. I draw the right countermagic and he is unable to resolve anything as I chip away at his life total. He attempts an Echoing truth but I have Bolt.
G2: He T1 Careful studies and dumps Iona and Grave Titan. I counter his first Exhume. I get a Strix out and Surgical his Exhumes after his draw. Unfortunately he has Reanimate. He casts it, reanimating Iona naming…Blue. Good thing I have Diabolic Edict in hand (his logic was he needed to kill my Strix with his Deluge in hand but didn’t want me to be able to counter it). I play a Leovold and he is unable to find anything as I beat him down.

In: 2 Edicts, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Blast, 2 Surgical, 1 Clique
Out: 1 Deluge, 2 Push, 2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Bolt, 1 Night’s Whisper, 1 Jace

3-0 (6-2)

Round 4
Marco with 4c Loam: ID
ID, but this is probably a bad MU. We played a game for fun and I got slaughtered. TNN would help here and I don’t run any. How do we even beat this matchup??? Surgical out of the board helps but I feel like we are still very unfavored.

3-0-1 (6-2)

-Thouhtseize was good all day. Manabase felt solid. 3/2 split of Snapaster and Kcommand felt pretty good.

-No outs to Leyline of Sanctity (I guess Explosives for 4 works). Maybe a Golgari Charm in the side?

-Never played Night’s Whisper. But I feel like it probably isn’t needed. What to replace with it? TNN? Hymn?

-Third Abrupt Decay in the board felt unneeded. Might become Golgari Charm, Hymn, or TNN.

Any advice on boarding or changes? My list is here:

//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

//Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Counterspell
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt

//Sorceries
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Night's Whisper
1 Toxic Deluge

//Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

[MorphBerlin]

You know what's great against Punishing Fire? ~~ Leovold ~~

Sure, against someone bringing in 4! P.blast and having X Botls left from the main

[MorphBerlin]

I'm of the opinion that the build with Hymns etc are much better too. Curving it into Leo and Jace, or Snapping it back is incredibly powerful.

Did you draw it late when both players are in topdeck mode? Doesn't feel so great then. I was +6 or more in CA against someone recently on cockatrice, almost lost because he was on empty and all I had in hand was Thoughtseizes, Hymns...

[HSCK]

I'm going to try 3 Hymns, 2 Counterspells. I think it could be a good mix of proactive and reactive measures.

[mindcrank]

I'm going to try 3 Hymns, 2 Counterspells. I think it could be a good mix of proactive and reactive measures.

I can really dig the idea of Hymn's in this deck, you just have to make sure your mana base supports it correctly. I think for our deck it needs to be something like:

9 Fetches
3-4 Underground Sea
2 Trops
1-2 Volcanics
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

something like this unless you are running Wasteland, but I think Wasteland and UU BB spells is hard to do well consistantly in a 4 color deck..

[HSCK]

I can really dig the idea of Hymn's in this deck, you just have to make sure your mana base supports it correctly. I think for our deck it needs to be something like:

9 Fetches
3-4 Underground Sea
2 Trops
1-2 Volcanics
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

something like this unless you are running Wasteland, but I think Wasteland and UU BB spells is hard to do well consistantly in a 4 color deck..

9 fetches
4 Sea
2 Trop
2 Volc
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island

[NegatorITA]

Has the 4 strix/4 snapcaster pellenik build discussion moved elsewhere now? (Since it's basically grixis now
)
Or it's just that everyone wants to play with a more midrangyish build?

[mindcrank]

Made some changes to my list to try out after reading @HSCK's post. I did (maindeck) -1 Liliana of the Veil -1 Thoughtseize +2 Hymn and (sideboard) -1 Engineered Explosives -1 Marsh Casualties +2 Engineered Plague.

Went 4-0 Sunday, played against:
2-1 DnT (splashing Magus)
2-1 BR Reanimator
2-1 UR Delver (w/Price of Progress)
2-0 UWr Stoneblade (w/TNN + Baneslayer Angel)

Not sure how I feel about Hymn yet. I feel like it is great in fair matchups to out-value opponents, but I find that if I have both it and Counterspell in hand I will hold my mana for counterspell and try to force them to tap out on their turn first and follow up with a Hymn.

It's obviously great in the Elves matchup and other combo as well. It feels a little weird losing the Liliana, especially when playing against BR Reanimator since I only have one edict effect post-board. But maybe it's not that big of a deal?

[MorphBerlin]

I wanna try a hymn build tonight, anyone willing to provide a list?

[HSCK]

My current version

Creatures: 13
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman

Planeswalkers: 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts: 1
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Spells: 24
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Lands: 20
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

[mindcrank]

I wanna try a hymn build tonight, anyone willing to provide a list?

Mine's similar to @HSCK,

4 DRS
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster
2 TNN
2 Leovold

2 JTMS

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 K. Command
2 Counterspell
2 Hymn
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Night's Whisper

9 Fetches
3 UG Sea
2 Trop
2 Volc
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island

SB:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dread of Night
1 Fire Covenant
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Plague

[MorphBerlin]

Mine's similar to @HSCK,



Thanks guys, unfortunatly I can't afford to run Hymn+CS in my Meta, too slow for it. We have like 20+% Ant decks allways, plus a good number of D&T,Delver, other combo.

I played this list yesterday to another 3-1 finish.
Losing to Merfolk (No Removal G1, Chalice G2)
Winning agaisnt UW HawkBlade with MD B2B, Burn (lucky me), Mirror

Not enough Data but I think you can't afford Basics and Hymn, because you are not able to fetch Island -> Ponder on T1

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Creature
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage

// 16 Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Fatal Push
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Snare

// 20 Land
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Verdant Catacombs

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 10 Sorcery
4 Ponder
1 Painful Truths
1 Night's Whisper
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

// 2 Creature
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage

// 9 Instant
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Pyroblast

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 1 Marsh Casualities
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

[ashent]

I have been playing this deck for quite a while and always roll my eyes at the 1x Night's Whisper.

Could someone who is pro-Night's Whisper give me a rundown of why you like it? For example, in the immediate list above, which I like - I immediately go to cut the Whisper for a second Bolt or a 3rd Push.

[MorphBerlin]

I have been playing this deck for quite a while and always roll my eyes at the 1x Night's Whisper.

Could someone who is pro-Night's Whisper give me a rundown of why you like it? For example, in the immediate list above, which I like - I immediately go to cut the Whisper for a second Bolt or a 3rd Push.

I just tried it for the first time yesterday instead of the 4th strix (because I only have 3 JPN foil Strix atm:tongue:). It's a good t2 play if nothing is going on yet or in the slower MUs and nice with snapcaster.

What I don't like, is that it's not giving you a great advantage and playing both Whisper and Truths can be clunky. Resolving Truths in a grindy MU is almost like resolving Jace, whereas Whisper is weaker than eg Hymn. Also you have to have T1 Discard/DRS to play it on T2 OTD

(btw I allready play 2 Bolts, bc I think 4 1 mana Removal is mandatory)

Going forward it might be the first card to cut yes

[mort-]

I have been playing this deck for quite a while and always roll my eyes at the 1x Night's Whisper.

Could someone who is pro-Night's Whisper give me a rundown of why you like it? For example, in the immediate list above, which I like - I immediately go to cut the Whisper for a second Bolt or a 3rd Push.

I liked it because it just draws two cards. Pretty simple, actually. I didn't want to play Hymns because BB, I also think that you're grinding out your opp anyway, so you don't need Hymn. Counterspell just seems better (for key spells).

[Whit3boy316]

I have been playing this deck for quite a while and always roll my eyes at the 1x Night's Whisper.

Could someone who is pro-Night's Whisper give me a rundown of why you like it? For example, in the immediate list above, which I like - I immediately go to cut the Whisper for a second Bolt or a 3rd Push.

I cut my whisper and 4th snappy for 2 thoughtseize. No regrets

[bigbobbobber]

I have been playing this deck for quite a while and always roll my eyes at the 1x Night's Whisper.

Could someone who is pro-Night's Whisper give me a rundown of why you like it? For example, in the immediate list above, which I like - I immediately go to cut the Whisper for a second Bolt or a 3rd Push.

I LOVED Night's Whisper. Cool card, awesome art, strong effect. I jumped at the opportunity to play it in the Czech Pile. And I loved casting it. Then realized it doesn't do enough. Hymn does much the same in this deck (2 for 1) but better. This deck creates enough card advantage without it. I often have games where I have DRS and seven cards in hand and have to go to discard. We don't really need a one of that is relatively weak. If you want a one of in a deck like this, I think it should be a bomb.

[mindcrank]

I am cutting Hymn's for the GP and going back to Liliana + Tseize.

and I like Night's Whisper in grindy control matchups

[supachai]

For those of you who run 3 Strix's and 1 Night's Whisper: is Whisper really better than the 4th Strix? Basically is an extra card in hand better than a 1/1 Flying Deathtouch and 2 life? Strix is also a (slow) clock and pitches to Force. Not saying Strix is better or worse, actually curious what you guys think.

I decided to cut mine for Vendilion Clique. It's a clock/disruption against combo, can surprise trade with most creatures, and can pseudo simulate the digging effect from Night's Whisper.

Most lists seemed to have cut Deluge lately. I like the idea of having a 2nd Bolt, but I feel naked when I'm facing down Elves or Grixis Delver and I get swarmed. Do most of you tend to agree with this change?

Also, just agreeing with all the posts about Thoughtseize. Running 2 in the main and 2 more in the side, it's definitely been MVP.

[MorphBerlin]

I'm cutting Hymn and playing basics again. At least on cockatrice where the red stompy decks runs rampant. No way to win there

[Whit3boy316]

For those of you who run 3 Strix's and 1 Night's Whisper: is Whisper really better than the 4th Strix? Basically is an extra card in hand better than a 1/1 Flying Deathtouch and 2 life? Strix is also a (slow) clock and pitches to Force. Not saying Strix is better or worse, actually curious what you guys think.

I decided to cut mine for Vendilion Clique. It's a clock/disruption against combo, can surprise trade with most creatures, and can pseudo simulate the digging effect from Night's Whisper.

Most lists seemed to have cut Deluge lately. I like the idea of having a 2nd Bolt, but I feel naked when I'm facing down Elves or Grixis Delver and I get swarmed. Do most of you tend to agree with this change?

Also, just agreeing with all the posts about Thoughtseize. Running 2 in the main and 2 more in the side, it's definitely been MVP.

I really like strix. Good against delver, infect, dnt(most times) I don't run deluge main because I use to run 3 tnn. Now I'm trying 3 leovold but I don't want to make room for the deluge. I also don't run any bolts. I find it easier on my mama has to just run 3 fatal push. The only time I regret not having bolt is against plainewalkess and mirron crusader

[supachai]

Looks like Joe Lossett (famous Miracles player) is playing Czech Pile. He is on stream right now from GP Vegas.

EDIT: Featuring Unearth!

https://www.twitch.tv/magic

I'm tending to agree. Hymn is a bit more powerful turn 2 (and even then it depends on the deck), but Strix is a way better topdeck and in the lategame. I decided to cut Toxic Deluge for another Bolt. Since I'm losing another out to TNN, being better at racing is not a bad option.

[Whit3boy316]

Looks like Joe Lossett (famous Miracles player) is playing Czech Pile. He is on stream right now from GP Vegas.

EDIT: Featuring Unearth!

https://www.twitch.tv/magic

I'm tending to agree. Hymn is a bit more powerful turn 2 (and even then it depends on the deck), but Strix is a way better topdeck and in the lategame. I decided to cut Toxic Deluge for another Bolt. Since I'm losing another out to TNN, being better at racing is not a bad option.

I saw his stream. I like the threat density. I may have to give it a whirl

[ashent]

Do you guys have a list for the above mentioned list or the "4c Leovold" that WotC had featured earlier at 8-0?

[weaselface]

Do you guys have a list for the above mentioned list or the "4c Leovold" that WotC had featured earlier at 8-0?
Lossetts list:

4 Brainstorm
4 DRS
4 Fatal Push
2 Flusterstorm
1 L. Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Unearth
2 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster
2 K. Command
2 Leovold
3 TNN
3 Fow
1 Murderous Cut
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Bloods. Mire
1 Island
4 Pol. Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Trop
2 UG Sea
1 Volc

Side:

1 Flusterstorm
2 Invasive surgery
1 Pithing Needle
1 REB
3 Surgical
1 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
1 K. Command
2 Minister of Pain


Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[supachai]

Jacob Haversat's list is posted here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplv17/grand-prix-las-vegas-day-1-legacy-9-0s-2017-06-16

He was 9-0 day 1 and I believe he is 13-2, standing in 7th place before T8!

Tasigur maindeck seems interesting for sure.

[MorphBerlin]

With the amount of Blood Moon running around, I think there is a lot of merit to Counterspells and the 2 Island 1 Swamp Mana Base

[ashent]

Island, Swamp, DRS casts everything in the deck hopefully, and if accounted for can get you out of the Blood Moon.

I am playing 0 Wastes these days.

I love the deck that guy played but I hate that Tasigur. I would have been happy to see like 30+ other 1 of's before that.

[mindcrank]

Went 5-4 at GP Vegas,

Played against:
Aluren 0-2
Jund 2-0
DnT (Magus) 1-2
Infect 2-1
Infect 2-0
Burn 2-1
ANT 0-2
BUG Delver 2-1
Elves 1-2

Pretty rough day, didn't make day 2 in the last round :( ANT got god hands and turn 1'd me twice. Elves was impossible even with two Engineered Plagues in play. Overall happy with the deck still - but still need to work on fixing my boarding vs elves and how I play the match.

[supachai]

Went 5-4 at GP Vegas,

Played against:
Aluren 0-2
Jund 2-0
DnT (Magus) 1-2
Infect 2-1
Infect 2-0
Burn 2-1
ANT 0-2
BUG Delver 2-1
Elves 1-2

Pretty rough day, didn't make day 2 in the last round :( ANT got god hands and turn 1'd me twice. Elves was impossible even with two Engineered Plagues in play. Overall happy with the deck still - but still need to work on fixing my boarding vs elves and how I play the match.

Not a bad finish! Do you have your list?

[mindcrank]

Not a bad finish! Do you have your list?

4 DRS
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold
2 TNN

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 K Command
2 Counterspell
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Night's Whisper
1 Thoughtseize

2 JTMS
1 Liliana of the Veil

9 Fetches
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

sb:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Plague (I am going to cut these)
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Fire Covenant
1 Dread of Night
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Thoughtseize

[Misplayer]

I went 7-2 day 1 and 1-2-drop day 2 at GP Vegas. The deck has been fantastic for me. I've had about a 63% win percentage in ~40 matches over the last few months.

Grixis Delver (with Stifle) 2-1
Merfolk 2-0
Grixis Delver (no Stifle) 2-1
BUG Delver 1-2
Aggro Loam 2-1
Eldrazi 0-2
Lands 2-1
Merfolk 2-1
Lands 2-0
Grixis Delver (no Stifle) 0-2
UB Death Shadow 0-2
BR Reanimator 2-0 (scoop/drop)

[mindcrank]

I went 7-2 day 1 and 1-2-drop day 2 at GP Vegas. The deck has been fantastic for me. I've had about a 63% win percentage in ~40 matches over the last few months.

Grixis Delver (with Stifle) 2-1
Merfolk 2-0
Grixis Delver (no Stifle) 2-1
BUG Delver 1-2
Aggro Loam 2-1
Eldrazi 0-2
Lands 2-1
Merfolk 2-1
Lands 2-0
Grixis Delver (no Stifle) 0-2
UB Death Shadow 0-2
BR Reanimator 2-0 (scoop/drop)

hook it up with the list :)

[mindcrank]

Lossetts list:
2 Minister of Pain


Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

I wonder how good this is? It fascinates me..

[Tutor]

What about Oliver Tiu deck ?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCfDwQkUQAAkUa0.jpg


Gonna try this low green style of deck. I want to jump 4c Control decks as option to Lands deck that I have, and I love Kcommands, Leovold =D

[mindcrank]

What about Oliver Tiu deck ?
Gonna try this low green style of deck. I want to jump 4c Control decks as option to Lands deck that I have, and I love Kcommands, Leovold =D

SB Blood Moon in a 4 color deck, MAD MAN!

[Misplayer]

hook it up with the list :)

Here's what I registered:

21 Land:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island

13 Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

8 Removal:
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Collective Brutality

9 Disruption:
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Counterspell

10 Card Selection:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Painful Truths

I need more maindeck outs to True-Name/Angler, so I'm going to change:
Maindeck: -1 Collective Brutality / +1 Diabolic Edict
Sideboard: -1 Diabolic Edict / +1 Thoughtseize

[mindcrank]

I need more maindeck outs to True-Name/Angler, so I'm going to change:
Maindeck: -1 Collective Brutality / +1 Diabolic Edict
Sideboard: -1 Diabolic Edict / +1 Thoughtseize

I imagine Baleful Strix has to help vs Angler + Goyf?

[Whit3boy316]

I imagine Baleful Strix has to help vs Angler + Goyf?

Not to mention delver, tombstalker, inkmoth Nexus, Serra avengers, flickerwisp.

This is why I run 4

[LarsLeif]

What about Oliver Tiu deck ?


Gonna try this low green style of deck. I want to jump 4c Control decks as option to Lands deck that I have, and I love Kcommands, Leovold =D

It is very similar to mine (even down to the MD Edict). But it doesn't appear very tuned. I don't like the bolts etc. You can very easily play Moon in the deck as it is basically UB with a light red splash. It's not really 4c.

[ashent]

I love 4 Strix.

I played a 3 rounder last night against BR Reanimator, Eldrazi, and Food Chain.

Strix was a fine to good card in 2 matchups and an allstar in the third.

I don't even feel like there are very many matchups where he is actively bad, unlike many good cards in the deck that get pulled out in a lot of situations.

[mort-]

So I've played this deck in the last three MTGO challenges, going 9-1, 4-2 and 5-2. Things I noticed are:
The deck seems to be very soft against PFire. Is there a was to get around this?
I'm not too sure about 2 IoK vs TS vs Pierce. Any thoughts in this? Discard seemed very underwhelming for me up until now.
There seems to be a point in the more grindy matchups where the chance of flooding becomes pretty high. Is there a way to counter this? Reduce landcount or a Tasigur main mb?

[supachai]

So I've played this deck in the last three MTGO challenges, going 9-1, 4-2 and 5-2. Things I noticed are:
The deck seems to be very soft against PFire. Is there a was to get around this?
I'm not too sure about 2 IoK vs TS vs Pierce. Any thoughts in this? Discard seemed very underwhelming for me up until now.
There seems to be a point in the more grindy matchups where the chance of flooding becomes pretty high. Is there a way to counter this? Reduce landcount or a Tasigur main mb?

I mentioned Aggro Loam being a terrible matchup a while back. If P Fire is big in your meta, put in a TNN or 2 in your main. Clique can help nab it from their hand if you time it correctly. Same thing with DRS if you can counter their first attempt. Surgical out of the board helps. You are playing the aggro in the matchup and need to kill them before they get their engine going.

[mort-]

I mentioned Aggro Loam being a terrible matchup a while back. If P Fire is big in your meta, put in a TNN or 2 in your main. Clique can help nab it from their hand if you time it correctly. Same thing with DRS if you can counter their first attempt. Surgical out of the board helps. You are playing the aggro in the matchup and need to kill them before they get their engine going.

I'm actually not talking about Aggroloam but that strange 4c build seijim2 and Clashed are piloting. Don't think Loam is such a big issue actually, you can usually handle their threats pretty easy.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/678034#paper
List for reference.

[ashent]

I played a 6 rounder (no top8) on Sunday and got 4th out of 33 people with Czech Pile.

My list:

20 Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest

13 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage

25 Instants/Sorceries
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Night's Whisper
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Force of Will

2 Other
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB

2 REB
2 BEB
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vendilion Clique

Rd 1 - Woonghee on Sneak and Show
Woonghee plays UR Sneak and Show and had shown me a sideboard with 3x Dynavolt Tower at a tournament recently. I don't play standard so I don't have a really good handle on it, but I believe he is testing out siding into them as removal for games 2 and 3. I didn't think too much about it because my main win/con is Jace. Game 1 I won the die roll and kept 7, but had 2 dead cards in Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push. I knew the hand wasn't stellar, and was sure of what he was on before we started, but kept it anyway. I didn't manage to Brainstorm these cards away in time and only had a single Counterspell to fight over Show and Tell with, which he already knew about from a turn 1 Gitaxian Probe. I lost the counter fight and had a DRS in play vs his Griselbrand. I sided out my Fatal Pushes, Decays, and Lightning Bolts, and brought in the Blast effects, the Flusterstorm, the Invasive Surgery, and rounded out my playset of Thoughtseize for game 2. Game 2 we both kept 7 again and I led off with Thoughtseize into DRS and held up 5 counters for the rest of the game until he died. Game 3 on the draw I kept a hand of Blasts, Flusterstorm, Forces, and a Leovold. Leovold acted as a very annoying clock, and his only way to kill it was his slow Dynavolt Tower, which I was okay drawing off of. Eventually facing down a near-lethal DRS he was forced to cast Sneak Attack, which met a Blue Elemental Blast, which he Forced. I believe that the stack ended up: Sneak Attack -> BEB -> Force -> Flusterstorm -> Flusterstorm. I had to let the Flusterstorm resolve, but in the fight I had done what I needed to and forced him to use his Petal as mana and after Sneak resolved he had no red mana for the turn and I could untap Snap -> BEB the Sneak Attack for the concession.

1-0, 2-1 in games.

Rd 2 - ? on Burn
This matchup is extremely bad. I didn't know what he was on until after I kept my first hand, but I am always on the edge of my seat with every Underground Sea deck I own against Burn, and usually feel like it not only requires really tight play but a lot of luck and hoping they brick a bit. Game 1 I won the die roll and kept 7, he mulls to 6. He keeps somewhat hesitantly and I play Underground Sea, go. His first turn is Goblin Guide so I know the score immediately, and start trying to gather up Swamp and Island without losing too much life. I Brainstorm in response to the Guide trigger to get a land draw, and then let it live one more turn before Decaying it, getting 2 draws for 4 damage. This sequence was because on his second turn, he had Mountain, Goblin Guide. I had Decay up, but wanted to see if he'd cast a Swiftspear or something pre-combat. I am most afraid of a post-combat Eidolon of the Great Revel, so I had to let the 2 damage come through when he just untapped and attacked. When he didn't play a second Mountain and just passed, I Decayed the Guide, sad about taking 2 extra damage, but happy that there was no Eidolon. I decided that he had bricked on his second land, but his hand was likely POP, Fireblast, Fireblast or something equally scary. At this point my hand is 3 lands, Counterspell, Force, DRS. I finally deploy the DRS when I can keep CS up after, and he sends all his sorcery speed burn straight at me, ignoring the DRS who becomes active the next turn. I have Counterspell, Force, Baleful Strix, and some lands in hand, with 3 lands on the table when he POP's me. I am at 5. He is down to 2 cards following the POP on the table, so I cast Counterspell and then fetch to drop myself to 4. I then activate DRS to gain life up to 6, assuming that he will Fireblast me in response, and I Force it removing Strix. I end the sequence at 5 life with him empty handed, and then play 2 more DRS off the top who get me to 9 and then kill him. Game 2 I took out some clunky Jaces and bring in the Jitte, mull to 5 to find it because my 6 and 7 were unkeepable messes, and don't like my odds of surviving with a mull to 5 but he starts really slowly and I deploy a turn 3 Jitte with a hand of Force Force Force and nothing going on. I fully expect to die, but rip a Snapcaster off the top in order to surprise him with an EOT Snap, untap -> equip with a Force for whatever he does to try to kill the Snap. I think this only worked out because game 2 against Burn they very often shave creatures in order to bring in Vortex, Firecrafts, and other mean stuff, so he didn't have a blocker. As soon as Jitte got 2 counters on it, I felt super cozy and just played protect the Snap. My life total went down to 7 and then up to 9 before he conceded.

2-0, 4-1 in games.

Rd 3 - ? on Jund Death's Shadow
I won the die roll again (quite a nice trend for the day) and open up on Thoughtseize against an unknown opponent and see the following: Traverse the Ulvenwald, Temur Battle Rage, Inquisition of Kozilek, some collection of fetches and shocklands. I placed him on a Death's Shadow list, but didn't know immediately that it was actually the store's loaner Modern deck, boasting a total of 0 dual lands, and no cards past the Modern-legal cut off. I decided to take his Traverse, let him have a Ponder or something when he Inquisitioned me, and then just keep Temur Battle Rage in the back of my mind as he was apparently without a creature yet. This game I believe I saw him find a Death's Shadow which I let resolve and then Decayed when he went to use Battle Rage later in the game, and then wrapped up the game with a Jace. Feeling perhaps way too confident, I then kept a sketchy 1 lander on the draw and got extremely punished, but I believe the keep was something close to Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Ponder, Fetchland, Kolaghan's Command, Brainstorm. I got turn 1 Inquisitioned, removing my Thoughtseize, then bricked on land with my Ponder, but found a second Abrupt Decay. He deployed Tarmogoyf and then Liliana the Last Hope, who ate a Decay as soon as I found my second land. I then Decayed the Goyf, but he cast and flashed a Lingering Souls back, then found back to back Death's Shadows and I packed it in as my life total had gotten too low from the start of the game. On the play for game 3, I made sure to bring in Engineered Plague for "Spirit" and tried again. I kept a better hand this time, but I failed to find enough removal to keep up with multiple Shadows and Goyfs and then 4 Spirit tokens. This game was heart breaking as every turn I felt like I had multiple outs that I repeatedly drew lands for, and then made a questionable decision against Death's Shadow with this hand: Force, Bolt, Bolt. He Inquisitions me, with a Death's Shadow on board. I figure I can still find Push, Decay, Strix, or Snap to take care of the Shadow. I don't want to lose my Bolts, so I double Bolt him in response to the Inquisition and he sees my hand of just Force. This drops his life total to 4, where I feel like I can squeak out a win with a Snapcaster and a chump or a removal spell and a draw, etc, but I shorten his clock by a full turn by dropping him in life total. My draw steps are Misty Rainforest, Scalding Tarn, facing down lethal with a hand of just Force of Will. I have lost to a Modern deck. Not even "haha that is like a Modern deck" but an actual Modern deck. And the entire store is watching because our round took quite a while.

2-1, 5-3 in games.

Rd 4 - Brian on Death's Shadow Delver
What is going on here? Why am I being killed by Death's Shadows? Are the Modern players right? Is this card busted? I sit down across from Brian, who absolutely destroyed me 2-0 the day before at another event. I sigh deeply, but roll boxcars with the d6's and take the play with a good 7. Knowing he's on 4 Probe, 4 Stifle, 4 Daze, 4 Wasteland, etc, I choose to play a Fetch and immediately crack it for Island before saying go. I have the luxury of playing around Daze the entire game by being on the play with plenty of lands to go with, and leisurely throw him a fetch to Stifle every once in a while when I don't actually need the mana. I find enough Fatal Push/Decay and Strixes to keep me alive until I'm on 5 lands and casting better spells than him, like KCommand, Snap -> KCommand, he notes that it's a bad sign when I start Bolting him, and we go to game 2. We both kept 7, and he leads on Gitaxian Probe. I again have the luxury of playing around Daze all game because he does not have a turn 1 Delver. I patiently wait til I have Daze covered before deploying Baleful Strixes and really cementing my mana base. I think the turning point of game 2 was a sequence where I was forced into trying to remove a Death's Shadow with only 1 fetchland up to pay for Daze. I fully expected my fetch to get Stifled when he Dazed something, but when he let me fetch and then pay for the Daze he realized he just apparently Dazed an opponent with a mana open and possibly threw the game. All that said, I still felt like I could win this game even if the fetch was Stifled and my Push was countered, as he was a bit threat light and I was thankfully land heavy today. The day before, he 2-0'd me both games Stifling every fetchland I had and Wasting every dual I drew, ending both games with a single basic land in play and no other permanents. It was demoralizing, to say the least, so today, turning the corner against his aggression and slowly whittling him down with DRS into the concession felt pretty rewarding. Not just the win, but the fact that I had made 4c control look pretty terrible the day before.

3-1, 7-3 in games.

Rd 5 - Thunder on 12 Post

This one felt bad because whoever won this would be 4-1 and likely able to draw into the prizes, and Thunder is my friend. It also felt bad because I'm playing a control deck and have just been paired up against a deck full of Uncounterable Eldrazi and ramp pieces. I sit and chit chat with Thunder, immediately noting that I have to play the beat-down here, and that I don't really have the tools necessary to do so. I believe I won the die roll, which is helpful, and led on DRS, and he just played Glimmerposts and Cloudposts, cast Sylvan Scrying, and prepared to start casting back to back Eldrazi with on-cast triggers and I scooped it at a high life total just to save time. I think when I scooped my hand was Bolt against an opponent on 22 life, 0 threats, and a Decay and a Counterspell or something. He was gaining more life than DRS could drain and I needed a hand much more aggressive than this. I quickly moved on to game 2, repeating in my head that my win con is 100% Jace. How does he stop Jace? Pithing Needle. Let's keep both our Abrupt Decays, both our KCommands, and bring in the Ancient Grudge and Diabolic Edict, and then remove any cards that don't either draw Jace or clear the way for him. I have 0 Wasteland in my build, so I can't actually stop him from casting Primeval Titan or Eldrazis, but I can Thoughtseize him a bit and then hope to Fateseal him out of the game, so that's my plan. Game 2 on the play I kept a TS, some Ponders, and a Jace. Thunder goes to crop rotate into Stage to go with his Depths, asking me if I have the Diabolic Edict. I did, and quickly cast it, then stuck the Jace, fatesealing him up to 12 and Thunder quickly scoops. He at this time notes that he could have just gotten Eye of Ugin and started churning out unanswerable Eldrazi and that he would have won, and I have to agree, it's likely. Even so, this game was probably exactly what I had envisioned during sideboarding, by Thoughtseizing turn 1 on the play and then slamming a Jace as soon as possible. I note here also that he's playing Phyrexian Revoker which is an even more annoying card than Needle as it's a decent clock as well. Good for me that it still dies to everything I have in the deck as artifact removal. Game 3 had us both mull to 6, and he spins his wheels a little bit not really doing very much. When I Thoughtseize him I find Pithing Needle, Pithing Needle, Emrakul the Promised End, Green Sun's Zenith. I believe I ripped out the GSZ and let him cast two Pithing Needles the next turn. My hand was DRS, Jace, Land Land. I had no plan except a turn 4 Jace, so I was now prepared for him to just "blind" name DRS, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and then we'd just durdle for a bit and see who drew the best things.. Unfortunately he actually cast Pithing Needle. "Deathrite Shaman." Ok. Pithing Needle. "Polluted Delta." Ok. I untapped and slammed Jace, and got him up to 12. I think we both agree that Thunder is favored in this matchup, I simply can't produce a good enough clock to race him before 12 Post does 12 Posty things, but I got there today. I bet Jace's shoulders hurt from carrying me so hard.

4-1, 9-4 in games.

Rd 6 - ID with Elves

4-1-1, 10-5 in games. The Elves player was in 3rd and I was in 4th. We accept a draw and I go eat a few snacks. Thunder then sweats his last game and wins, narrowly getting 8th place! The prizes included a Taiga, a Savannah, a Foil Crucible, a foil korean Abrupt Decay, a foil Mox Diamond, a pack of revised, and an italian fbb pack of revised, and some other things. I had told everyone I absolutely was going to pick the fbb pack and open it immediately if I had the chance, but the Elves player in 3rd picked it before me. The duals were gone and I don't really have a use for the Mox Diamond if it's only my first out of four, so I snatched the revised pack. Everyone crowded around and waited with bated breath as we opened the packs, to absolute crushing disappointment. I played hard all day, spent 25 bucks in store credit as an entry fee, and left with nothing for my work. Serves me right for my absolute greed, as the last pick went to Thunder and he picked up a korean foil Decay which is actually worth like 180? According to sources.

Here's my pack:

http://i.imgur.com/HZsFeKf.jpg

Remember this? When we were kids we actually opened up 2 dollar packs of 15 cards with 7 basic lands in them.

[mindcrank]

@ashent, Thanks for the great report! I am running a really similar list to you except +2 TNN.

How is the meta in Seoul generally?

I imagine there is a decent American presence at the LGS's from the various bases - I only spent a day in Seoul and the rest of my month there up by the DMZ at Casey and Red Cloud.

[ashent]

Seoul is a little weird - people often show up with "standard" sideboards from the internet and find that Pyroblast isn't as good as it should be because blue is 35% of the meta instead of 70% as expected in Legacy. Our meta is typically a lot of Lands and Loam decks, tons of Marit Lages around, with a lot of D&T and some light combo. On the average day I expect to run into Maverick or Lands or D&T and Czech Pile isn't really a very strong pick but it IS my favorite deck, of which I can field 12 or 13 unique decks.

This event was 33 people and only 3 foreigners, myself included, were there. Our normal Monday night Legacy 3-rounder is like half Americans though. We actually have 0 regular players that are military, most of us are engineers of various stripes or english teachers/professors. I will go ahead and shamelessly plug my youtube here also, it's all of our Legacy events that I record: https://www.youtube.com/c/legacyk

[owerbart]

Just curious: Which decks are you really afraid when piloting this deck? Like, what would you say are it's worst matchups?